Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1261

1 Friday, 14 September 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning. Can the registrar please call the

7 case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

9 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Milan Simic, Miroslav

10 Tadic, and Simo Zaric.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution is continuing with the witness in

12 the stand.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. If Your Honours please, may I just

14 raise some issues that arose from the last ten minutes or so yesterday?


16 MR. DI FAZIO: There was some confusion yesterday regarding the

17 document that was given an exhibit number, P6, I believe. Firstly, I

18 understand from the legal officers of the Chamber that there has to be a

19 change to that exhibit number in any event. Secondly, I understand that

20 that exhibit number may have been given to the English summary, and I will

21 answer the Chamber's question that was directed to me yesterday regarding

22 the nature of the English summary in just a moment, if I may.

23 There was some confusion engendered, because the document that I

24 was hoping to lead the witness through was the statute of the

25 municipality, and that was clearly identified in the transcript and in my

Page 1262

1 questions. I had spoken to Mr. Zecevic later that day, and he had, I

2 think, quite rightly pointed out that there were some translation problems

3 in respect of other documents, not the statute, other documents that I

4 later intended to deal with, and yesterday he, I think innocently,

5 suggested that there might be the same -- similar problems in this

6 statute. There are no such problems, but I didn't -- that caused me some

7 confusion in my mind yesterday.

8 Those problems do not exist in the English summary that relates to

9 P6 or the statute of the municipality.

10 Secondly, the Court was informed by Mr. Zecevic, again I think

11 innocently, that he had some other document other than the summary. He

12 was saying he had a full translation. So I was left in the position of

13 thinking that people had different documents in court and they did not.

14 We all had the same document.

15 So that's what accounted for the degree of confusion yesterday,

16 and I apologise for that.

17 If I can turn to the question that Your Honour, Judge Williams

18 raised, namely the question of the nature of the English translation. It

19 is a summary. Parts of it contain verbatim and accurate, full

20 translations, parts of it contain the gist of the particular article, and

21 parts of it are not translated at all. I regret that, and I will ensure

22 that any parts that are referred to this morning with the witness, any

23 articles that I take the witness to in the statute are fully and

24 completely translated and given to the Chamber as soon as possible.

25 I therefore suggest that the English translation or, rather,

Page 1263

1 English summary be used merely as a guide, that it not be produced in

2 evidence, and that the Prosecution will undertake to provide full and

3 complete translations of all sections or articles referred to in the

4 evidence so there's no confusion at all, and I'll provide that a later

5 stage. I wonder if those arrangements are suitable for the Chamber.

6 JUDGE SINGH: Mr. Di Fazio, perhaps in the meantime you would be

7 good enough to indicate the particular articles that you're going to refer

8 to in the constitution and just let us know, those articles that you're

9 going to refer to, each of them, is either a summary or a fair

10 translation.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: I believe that they are a fair translation. I

12 don't think that they are particularly summarised. I'm not a B/C/S

13 reader, I'm afraid, if Your Honour pleases, and I haven't had time to take

14 the particular articles that I want to a translator and say, "Are these

15 complete and full translations in this particular summary that we have?"

16 So I can't answer your question accurately. I think that they are fairly

17 accurate translations, but I can't go beyond that. However, I don't think

18 that should be an impediment to our continuing this morning in respect of

19 this document, A, because the witness can read them out into the evidence

20 himself; and B, because I will provide, and shortly, full translations of

21 any articles. I've also --

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much. Let me just confirm with

23 counsel whether that is correct that the document he has is the same one

24 that you presented and whether he has any other problems with it.

25 Mr. Pantelic, will you answer first?

Page 1264

1 MR. PANTELIC: That's another issue that my colleague would like

2 to raise. In order to facilitate these proceedings and in order to

3 respect judicial economy, the Defence is of the opinion that during this

4 cross-examination, if certain problems with regard to the interpretation

5 might arise between English version and B/C/S version, we kindly ask you

6 to give us the floor to maybe clarify with the dear colleagues from the

7 interpreter booths certain words. I think that everything would be fine,

8 but just in case, and in order to assist the Trial Chamber, we would

9 kindly ask to have a word about certain interventions.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. That would be perfectly in in order, yes.

11 MR. ZECEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. In principle, this is

12 an acceptable arrangement which Mr. di Fazio offered, but there is one

13 other thing, just one slight thing. I mean, we can overcome that during

14 the proceedings. Our copies were not highlighted, so we don't really know

15 to which exactly articles of the statutes Mr. di Fazio is going to refer

16 to.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Before he refers to them, he will give you the exact

18 number so that you can also follow which articles and then you can

19 highlight.

20 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you so much.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

22 Yes, Mr. di Fazio.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Before we start, I was given information by the

25 Victims and Witnesses Unit. There is a rule of practice in this Tribunal

Page 1265

1 that once a witness starts giving evidence, members of the Prosecution

2 team do not talk to that witness without the consent of the Trial Chamber,

3 similarly with the Defence team, even with their witnesses. Once a

4 witness is on the witness stand, they don't talk to him or her until the

5 end of the examination of the witness. If for any reason there is a need

6 to contact the witness, there must be leave sought from the Trial Chamber.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm grateful for that,

8 because in fact yesterday members of the unit spoke to me about the

9 issue. I wasn't aware of that rule, I'm afraid. Practices differ. In

10 America, apparently counsel --

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. What is unfortunate in this Tribunal is that

12 the head of Prosecutions never briefs new members of staff. That is an

13 unfortunate aspect of our Tribunal.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, but I'll ensure that there's no contact,

15 further contact with Mr. Tihic, and that will be the practice, of course,

16 throughout the remainder of the trial.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: One other matter, if Your Honours please. This

19 morning I gave to the legal officers of the Chamber the full

20 statute -- the full 1986 Bosanski Samac statute. They have three copies.

21 This is the document that I aim to tender and produce into evidence. This

22 is what I want in evidence.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: As long as the articles are fully identified, and

24 then we can follow.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: It's apparent on the face of the document you don't

Page 1266

1 have to be a B/C/S reader. You can see the numbering. It uses a word

2 called -- that in English appears as "clan," c-l-a-n. They are the

3 articles. It's just abundantly apparent from the document. And of

4 course, you have the aid of that summary. I wonder, therefore, if the

5 B/C/S Statute, the 1986 Bosanski Samac statute, could be given to the

6 witness.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number now?

8 MR. DI FAZIO: I have a spare copy if it's needed.

9 THE REGISTRAR: This document shall be marked for the record as P7

10 ter.


12 Examined by Mr. Di Fazio: [Continued]

13 Q. Mr. Tihic, yesterday you gave us a brief description of this

14 document, and you identified it is the statute of the Bosanski Samac

15 municipality. I only want to take you to a few articles in that

16 document. Could I ask you, please, to look at Article 13(9).

17 MR. DI FAZIO: And if Your Honor please, you will find that on

18 page 9 of the B/C/S version and on page 5 of the guide, of the English

19 guide.

20 Q. Could I ask you to read Article 13, please.

21 A. Under item (9), it says: [As read] "The equality of nations and

22 nationalities and the conditions for the development of their culture are

23 ensured."

24 Q. Can you just pause there, please. What's the intended

25 significance of that particular subparagraph?

Page 1267

1 A. In Yugoslavia, as it was back then, and especially in

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina, special attention was always paid to equal

3 representation and equality of nations and nationalities in various ways,

4 including political representation both in various offices in the

5 municipality and in the economy, social and cultural institutions, and so

6 on, and it was the duty of the municipality, in its purview as established

7 through the statute and the constitution, to take care of that.

8 Q. Can you give the Chamber any practical examples of how the

9 municipality would go about achieving that?

10 A. In practice, it meant that all nations were to be represented in

11 the municipal Chamber, and then that the president of the municipality,

12 the president of the executive board, the secretary and heads of various

13 services should be members of various nations and that they should take

14 turns in office, and it couldn't have happened that the head of a certain

15 service or the head of a certain office was a member of the same ethnic

16 group for several mandates.

17 It was a kind of a Holy Trinity, so to speak, and the three

18 top-most officers were rotated among the three ethnic groups, and the same

19 was in social and cultural institutions.

20 Q. Can I ask you to look at Article 13(15), and could you please read

21 its contents into the record?

22 A. It says again: [As read] "In the municipality in particular,

23 national defence is regulated and organised according to the constitution

24 and the statue of the municipality."

25 The municipality, as a unit of local self-management, had strong

Page 1268

1 and wide competencies in the area of national defence. That was obvious,

2 among other things, from the fact that out of the five of the six

3 secretariats that existed before the war, two of them belonged in the

4 field of national defence, namely, the Secretariat of National Defence and

5 the Territorial Defence. Significant funds were allocated for these

6 purposes.

7 Unlike some other states, perhaps, the municipalities in Bosnia,

8 that is, in the former Yugoslavia, had rather broad competencies, and when

9 we say "national defence," from the headquarters of Territorial Defence,

10 which had its own units and rather regularly held drills, manoeuvres, we

11 had this Territorial Defence which was supposed to be some sort of

12 supplement or support to the overall defence, whose pivot was the Yugoslav

13 People's Army.

14 The municipality held all the records of military conscripts, men

15 of military age, and the municipality had its own weapons. I believe that

16 enterprises did too.

17 Q. When you say that the municipality had its own weapons, do you

18 mean the Territorial Defence, the TO?

19 A. Yes. Yes, within the framework of the Territorial Defence and

20 within the framework of those factories, plants.

21 Q. Thank you. Can I ask you to turn to Chapter 3 of the statute, and

22 in particular, go to Article 90.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: And if Your Honours please, you will find that at

24 page 14 of the English guide.

25 Q. Would you please read into the record Article 90(1) and (2) and

Page 1269

1 (3) and (4), and identify them when you're reading them into the record,

2 please.

3 A. Article 90(1):

4 [As read] "In the municipality, in accordance with the

5 Constitution and the law and in line with the rights and obligations as

6 established and within the plan of the socio-political community:

7 "1. The municipality takes organisational, material and other

8 measures to prepare citizens for All People's Defence and regulates the

9 citizens' rights and obligations and takes measures for their

10 participation in armed struggle and other forms of resistance in war in

11 the event of the immediate threat of war and other emergencies;

12 "2. The municipality ensures unity of organisation and

13 preparation of All People's Defence and social self-protection;

14 "3. The defence plans of enterprises and communities are brought

15 into line with the defence plan of the municipality. Tasks are determined

16 which are of importance for the municipality;

17 "4. Organises training of citizens, working people, members of

18 Territorial Defence units, the Reserve Police Force, the Civil Defence,

19 the Signals Unit, and the observation and information service for All

20 People's Defence."

21 Q. Thank you. Can you tell the Chamber if the combination of those

22 particular articles that I've referred to you, and indeed any other

23 articles that you might be aware of, gave control of Territorial Defence

24 exclusively to the municipality?

25 A. Yes , with the proviso that, in my view, this Territorial Defence

Page 1270

1 was linked with the republican Territorial Defence in a way, that is, with

2 the republican headquarters of Territorial Defence.

3 Q. Thank you. Can I ask you now, please, to go to Article 126 of the

4 statute.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, you will find that at page

6 19 of the English guide, and pages 34 and 35 of the B/C/S document.

7 Q. Can you again read Article 126 into the transcript, please.

8 A. "Article 126. The self-management position and rights of the

9 working man in basic and other organisations of associated labour in local

10 communities. Self-management, communities of interest, and other

11 self-management organisations and communities. The self-management

12 position of working people in the municipality, freedom of association and

13 creativity of working people, equality of nations and nationalities, and

14 the freedoms, rights, and duties of man and citizens, as stipulated by the

15 Constitution, are the basic, the main thrust of the municipality in the

16 exercise of its authority."

17 Q. Thank you. Does the reference to the equality of nations and

18 nationalities have much the same meaning as it does in Article 13?

19 A. Yes. That was implemented strictly at all levels and in all

20 structures of authority.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I understand that the

22 document was entered yesterday. I want to make sure that the document

23 that has been given an exhibit number is in fact the B/C/S version, and I

24 understood there might be some small problem over the actual number that

25 has to be given to it. And furthermore, I'm not quite sure of the

Page 1271

1 position following yesterday's last-minute discussions. But I make it

2 plain, I now want to ensure that that document is tendered and produced

3 into evidence, the B/C/S version.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: This one?

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, the B/C/S, the statute, 1986 statute of the

6 municipality of Bosanski Samac, the document upon which I've just been

7 examining.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: It has been given a number.


10 JUDGE MUMBA: P7 ter.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. In that case, it's not a problem.

12 Thank you. I appreciate that.

13 If Your Honours please, I want to refer now to another document.

14 For the benefit of Defence counsel, they will know of it as document C2 on

15 the list of exhibits from the Prosecution. They are -- it is, rather, a

16 Gazette. I'll fully identify it for the purposes of the transcript as

17 soon as the document has been made available. I produce to the Court

18 three full copies of the document that I seek to refer to.

19 [Prosecution counsel confer]

20 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm sorry. Before the usher goes, I also have

21 these English guides that accompany that particular document, and I just

22 want to say some remarks -- make some remarks about that.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Counsel. Can we have -- you have already

24 described the two documents.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Now, you will have before you the Official

Page 1272

1 Gazette of the Bosanski Samac municipal full edition from January to

2 December 1990. That is the document, as properly described for the

3 purposes of the transcript, that is the document that I will be seeking to

4 produce into evidence.

5 You also have before you a guide, an English guide. Now, I regret

6 to say that that particular guide is not very helpful. I have produced it

7 to the Court. I don't intend to tender it into evidence. And I intend to

8 provide full translations of the portions of these gazettes in due course.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: In English?

10 MR. DI FAZIO: In English, of course. In English. Those English

11 guides are a tool and, I regret to say, a fairly primitive tool, but I

12 will rectify that situation and I will provide full, complete English

13 translations of all parts of these gazettes that I will take the Court to

14 this morning. I'm also happy to say that I don't think this situation is

15 going to arise with respect to almost all of the remaining Prosecution

16 documentation, where we do have full and complete translations.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. Thank you.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: I think the situation has arisen because they're

19 large documents and translating all of them was not particularly, if I may

20 take a word from Mr. Pantelic, judicially economic.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the numbers first.

22 THE REGISTRAR: This Gazette shall be marked for the record as

23 Prosecutor's Exhibit P8 ter.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: You will find it easy, or rather, easier to follow

25 the evidence, if Your Honours please, by reference to a number at the top

Page 1273

1 of each page, which is called the ERN number, and you will see that it

2 starts at 360. There's a large number, 0045/6360. And that goes in

3 sequence to the end of the document. So that's the way we'll find our way

4 around the document, if you please.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: Just look at the last three figures, and they go

7 from 360 right up until 513 or thereabouts. And I'd like to make sure now

8 that Mr. Tihic has a copy of the list of -- or bundle of gazettes.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I see Mr. Pantelic on his feet.

10 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Madam President. Just in order to

11 establish certain guidance and rules in technical terms, we would suggest

12 that our learned friend from the Prosecutor, when making a reference to

13 certain documents, just give us a number so that we can immediately find

14 the document in question, not only the title of the document, because -- I

15 will give you an example. If we are speaking about the Official Gazette

16 of the Bosanski Samac municipality, we have them three or four. So it

17 would be easier for us and also for the Trial Chamber if our learned

18 colleague from the Prosecution just could say at least this ERN number so

19 that we can go to. And in addition, Madam President, speaking about the

20 guide for --

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Purposes of the discussion.

22 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, for purposes of this cross. I am not sure

23 that we have been provided with this guide, so maybe it might be

24 interesting to have one copy. It would be easier for us to --

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Deal with, yes.

Page 1274

1 MR. PANTELIC: -- Trial Chamber go through the same things, if

2 it's not confidential, of course.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: No, it can't be confidential to the Defence.

4 The Prosecution counsel.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: I have received the guide a long time ago. There

6 is absolutely no doubt about that whatsoever.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can you give them the number? He said it

8 would be easier for them to find the document.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. The document that will assist them is -- the

10 number that will assist them are twofold. First of all, this is C2 on the

11 Prosecution's list of exhibits. I think I mentioned that.


13 MR. DI FAZIO: Secondly, I mentioned to you the very ERN numbers

14 that are required. I'll do so again. 0045/6360, ending at 0045/6513 or

15 thereabouts. So that's the document. I think it's clear in everyone's

16 mind. And I've also described it for the purposes of the transcript.

17 Q. Mr. Tihic, can I ask you to look through that document. I don't

18 suggest you read it in detail. It's too long. But could you just flick

19 through it, ascertain what it is and then tell the Court what it is.

20 A. This is an Official Gazette of the Bosanski Samac municipality,

21 where all the decisions of the municipal executive council are

22 promulgated. There are several official Gazettes, and there is a register

23 for Official Gazettes of year 1992 [sic].

24 Q. Thank you. Can I ask you, please, to go to paragraph 136 --

25 JUDGE MUMBA: May I ask for clarification? You said that this is

Page 1275

1 a Gazette from January to December 1990, and the witness has just said

2 this is a register for 1992.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: Oh, I see.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we correct the years, please?

5 THE WITNESS: 1990 -- year 1990. I apologise.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

8 Q. I'd like to take you to what I describe as paragraph 136 of this

9 whole bundle, but for the sake of ease, if you look at the top of the

10 pages, you'll see what I've referred to as ERN numbers, and the last three

11 numbers are the relevant numbers, and you can go quickly to the portion

12 that I want by simply going to ERN number 494, 494.

13 At 494, in the left-hand column at the bottom, you'll see a

14 number, I believe, 136.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm sorry. Does the Chamber have the B/C/S

16 version?



19 Q. Have you found it, Mr. Tihic?

20 A. Yes, I have.

21 Q. Thank you. I would like to ask you what paragraph 136 deals

22 with.

23 A. In this paragraph, lists of candidates are published for all

24 parties which took part in municipal elections on the 18th of November,

25 1990. Every party nominated 50 candidates. Here you see their names,

Page 1276

1 their ethnicity, and their place of origin.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm sorry. If the Chamber pleases, as far as the

3 English guide is concerned, you'll find what benefit you can from the

4 document. It's got little paragraphs on the left-hand side, and on about

5 the third page -- sorry, fourth page, you'll see a paragraph dealing with

6 announcement of candidates, and at the top there's an ERN number, 658.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Thank you.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: That's the English guide. Now, it's this portion

9 that will provide you with some assistance. Limited, I regret to say, but

10 it will provide you with some assistance there.

11 Q. Thank you. Still on page 4 -- sorry, ERN -- the page bearing ERN

12 number 494. On the right-hand column, there is a list of candidates, I

13 believe, and I suspect that it's the HDZ party or -- am I correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you can see people's names, up to 50, ending with a

16 gentleman's name, Mr. Zeljko.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Next, there appears to be another list, and I assume that that's

19 the SDA list of candidates, because your name appears there along with

20 another gentleman, Mr. Izetbegovic. Is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Just pausing there. Mr. Izetbegovic is a cousin of the former

23 president of Bosnia?

24 A. Yes. They're children of two brothers.

25 Q. And in all, it appears the SDA fielded 50 candidates.

Page 1277

1 A. Every party had to have 50 candidates.

2 Q. I see. Thank you.

3 A. That is the number of the municipal assembly.

4 Q. Thank you. If we can go to part of the document, the next page,

5 in effect, bearing ERN number 495. On the right-hand column, you'll see a

6 list of candidates, I assume for the SDS. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Number one on the list is a defendant in this case, Mr. Blagoje

9 Simic?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You will see it says, "Blagoje Simic," then the word spelt

12 S-r-b-i-n. I'm not sure how to pronounce that. What is that?

13 A. That is -- that is ethnicity.

14 Q. Oh, I see. And then obviously a reference to Bosanski Samac.

15 I now want to take you to another portion of that document, that

16 bundle of Gazettes, in effect, paragraph 141, and you will find it by

17 looking at the top of the page, following the ERN number, and it's ERN

18 number 503. Do you have it?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Firstly, is that the December 1990 issue of the Gazette?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. At the top of the page, you can see the word spelt B-r-o-j. What

23 does that word mean?

24 A. That's the number of the Official Gazette, number 7, dated 22nd

25 December, 1990, and then come the numbers which make it easier for you to

Page 1278

1 find your way through the Official Gazette. This is number 141, 141.

2 Q. Thank you. Firstly, what does number 141 generally deal with?

3 A. It's not a number of the paragraph, it's just a technical aid to

4 facilitate the work of anyone who deals with a large number of official

5 Gazettes. It's not the number of the paragraph.

6 Q. Thank you. Well, for the purposes of our proceedings, I'll just

7 use it to identify the portion of the document that I'm interested in, and

8 I'm interested in the portion of the document that commences on that page

9 and finishes on the following page. That's ERN number 504, left-hand

10 column.

11 So could you just have a look at that page and that part of the

12 second page bearing ERN number 504, and can you tell the Chamber what

13 that's all about?

14 A. This is a report of the municipal elections committee after the

15 elections were held, submitted to the municipal assembly for adoption. In

16 this report, the committee information the assembly how many people voted,

17 how many votes were given for each party, and finally, which party won and

18 who was elected deputy to the municipal assembly.

19 At the end, it gives an overview of the national composition,

20 national structure of the assembly, and that corresponded to the national

21 structure, the population of the Bosanski Samac.

22 Q. Thank you. On the right-hand column on the first page, that is

23 with ERN number 503, I think halfway down you will see your name and the

24 name of Izetbegovic. What does that mean?

25 A. This report notes that in view of the number of votes given to

Page 1279

1 that party, the two of us who were top-most on the list were elected

2 deputies for the municipality of Bosanski Samac.

3 Q. Thank you. And further down, just a few lines down, you will see

4 the name of, I believe, Dr. Blagoje Simic. Do you see that?

5 A. Yes, I can see is it. Blagoje was first on the list, and

6 naturally, together with another 17 candidates, he was elected from the

7 SDS party to the assembly of Bosanski Samac.

8 Q. Thank you. Can I ask you to turn over just a few pages to the

9 portion of the document, which for the sake of simplicity I'll call

10 paragraph 144, and it bears ERN number 507 at the top. Do you see that?

11 A. Yes, I can see it.

12 Q. Now, if you look at what I personally have referred to as

13 paragraphs, you will see paragraph 144, 145, 146, and across the page, 147

14 and 148. Do you see those?

15 A. Yes, I can see them.

16 Q. Are they paragraphs or, rather, sections of the document dealing

17 with the appointment of various people to positions in the municipality?

18 A. Those are numbers of documents appointing various candidates to

19 various offices in the municipal assembly. Each decision has its own

20 number.

21 Decision number 144 deals with the appointment of the

22 verification committee. 145 deals with the appointment of the mandate and

23 immunity committee, and so on and so forth.

24 Q. Thank you. Your name appears under what I've called paragraph

25 146, and that's on page -- the page bearing ERN number 508. Would you

Page 1280

1 look at that, please, the top left-hand column?

2 A. Yes, I can see it.

3 Q. What appointment was that?

4 A. Before the procedure starts for the election of an official, it is

5 necessary to appoint an elections committee which is supposed to approve

6 nominations in consultation with political parties. I was a member of

7 that committee. That was the first such committee appointed.

8 Q. Thank you. And finally, if you would look at the bottom of the

9 page. I think we can see the name of Dr. Blagoje Simic under paragraph

10 14 -- what I've called paragraph 148. Can you tell the Chamber what is

11 described in paragraph 148?

12 A. Paragraph 148 deals with the election of the vice-president of the

13 municipal assembly, because Blagoje Simic was elected vice-president of

14 the municipality of Bosanski Samac on the 22nd of December, 1990, with a

15 term of office of four years. .

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I've finished with the document, if

17 Your Honours please.

18 Q. You've described or said in your evidence that the Territorial

19 Defence, or TO, had weapons in its possession, and this was common, part

20 of its normal functioning. Was there ever an occasion when weapons were

21 taken away from the Bosanski Samac Territorial Defence?

22 A. Yes. It happened not only in Bosanski Samac but in all of Bosnia

23 and Herzegovina. The JNA took away the weapons of the Territorial

24 Defence.

25 Q. How was this accomplished, please? Was it done with advance

Page 1281

1 warning, without advance warning? Who were the persons who physically

2 carried it away? Can you tell us?

3 A. That was done by the Yugoslav People's Army, that is, the JNA,

4 because it made, I suppose, its own estimates or assessments that these

5 weapons might be abused or misused. We in Bosnia and Herzegovina's

6 leadership deemed that it was weaponry which belonged to municipalities,

7 to Bosnia and Herzegovina, but the JNA had the power to do it and did it.

8 The only exception were the Slovenes, who prevented this, and perhaps in

9 part the Croats also prevented it from happening, I mean Croatia.

10 Q. Can I just ask you, first of all, can you put a time on a date or

11 even a period on when this happened? I don't need a precise date, but can

12 you tell us at least approximately? Or give us a precise date if you can,

13 of course.

14 A. I think it could have been early 1990.

15 Q. You've told us that the municipality had responsibility for

16 territorial defence. Did the Bosanski Samac municipality react in any

17 particular way to this taking of the weapons?

18 A. Weapons were taken away even back at the time when the League of

19 Communists was in power, even before the multiparty elections, when it was

20 not generally accepted to voice any negative reaction to anything done by

21 the JNA. Whether there were any reactions outside of the public eye, I

22 don't know. But reading the press, you could find some information about

23 it, but it was more true of Slovenia and Croatia than Bosnia and

24 Herzegovina, because the League of Communists was still very strong in

25 Bosnia and Herzegovina, so any adverse reaction or resistance to this move

Page 1282

1 was thwarted. No other political parties existed which could have

2 resisted this move.

3 Q. What I asked, though, was: Did the municipality do anything

4 specific in reaction to this? Did they hold a meeting? Did they issue a

5 proclamation or vote on the matter, make public statements, anything of

6 that nature?

7 A. It was not a time when you could vote about such things or make

8 public statements. It was the kind of state where matters were resolved

9 in the central committee and similar levels; at least, that was the way it

10 happened in Bosnia. No voting, no way. Later, when parties came into

11 existence, there was a lot of reaction. The League of Communists was

12 attacked for siding with the JNA, for disarming the people, for

13 giving -- turning in weapons to people who attacked us the next day.

14 Weapons which were bought with the people's own money, with the money of

15 enterprises, was turned over to the JNA, and those were the weapons which

16 later shot at the same people.

17 Q. We'll leave this topic. I want to ask you about the defendants in

18 this case. Do you know Blagoje Simic?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. How long have you known him?

21 A. I've known him intensely, if I can use this term, since the time

22 when political parties were established. I knew his brother and his

23 father. On one occasion he approached me as a lawyer. But we know each

24 other. Samac is a small town.

25 Q. Can you tell the Court of his political activities, which party

Page 1283

1 and what positions he achieved in the period of time leading up to April

2 1992, positions within his particular party, and also, if you can,

3 positions within any local organs of government, like the municipality,

4 public bodies.

5 A. Blagoje, he was, in the first place, president of the SDS. He was

6 vice-president of the Municipal Assembly. Then, as far as I know, he was

7 vice-president of North Bosna SAO, the SAOs that had been formed in autumn

8 of 1991. Across the whole of Bosnia they were formed. And he was

9 probably a member of different committees, working bodies of the Assembly,

10 various councils for security and defence, and so on. To the best of my

11 knowledge, he continued to be a doctor and performed his other functions

12 on a voluntary basis.

13 Q. You've described some contact that you had with him when he came

14 to see you as a lawyer, but overall, is it the case that your contact with

15 him really commenced following the emergence of political parties and

16 following his adoption --

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, you are leading. Let the evidence come

18 after the witness, not after counsel.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: Let me rephrase the question.

20 Q. Was there a point of time at which your contact with Mr. Simic

21 increased?

22 A. After the first multiparty elections we had frequent contacts, in

23 the first place, within the frameworks of the Municipal Assembly, its

24 bodies, its organs, and then we also sometimes sat in cafes, in pubs,

25 after the Assembly sessions and meetings and talked. The meetings then

Page 1284

1 were quite frequent, given the situation, and we met several times on a

2 weekly basis, at least two or three times.

3 Q. What would you be meeting for on these two or three times per week

4 that you met? For what purposes?

5 A. Well, there were different events, extraordinary situations,

6 events that we had to take positions on, pass decisions. And as far as

7 political persuasion and in the way of passing decisions on subjects, we

8 were different. But we would sit together and try to resolve things that

9 could be resolved together.

10 Q. What about Mr. Miroslav Tadic? Do you know him?

11 A. Yes. I know Miroslav Tadic first of all as a teacher in the

12 secondary school centre, and I also knew him as my neighbour, as he lived

13 near to my house.

14 Q. Do you know of a premises called Cafe AS?

15 A. Yes. It is a cafe owned by Miroslav Tadic.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours would just bear with me for one

17 moment.

18 [Prosecution counsel confer]

19 MR. DI FAZIO: Can I ask the usher to assist me in setting up an

20 easel. One of the maps that we seek to produce is a copy -- is a map of

21 the environs, the town of Bosanski Samac, and it might be an appropriate

22 moment for this cafe to be identified, if possible. I have three copies

23 of the map that I intend to refer to for the purposes of the Bench. The

24 Defence have copies. And I've also got a large map which corresponds to

25 this which is for the easel. The fourth one for the Registry.

Page 1285

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number for the map, please.

2 THE REGISTRAR: This map of the surrounding environs of Bosanski

3 Samac shall be marked for the record as Prosecutor's Exhibit P9.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. If Your Honours please, I don't think

5 we need the ELMO for this -- for these purposes. The copy on that ELMO

6 is, in fact, for the Registry. I think we can get by for the moment with

7 just using the big map on the easel.

8 Q. First of all, Mr. Tihic, the document -- sorry, the map that you

9 see just behind you is, I believe, a map of the town of Bosanski Samac,

10 extending out for a few kilometres to the south and west; is that

11 correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, counsel for the Defence.

14 MR. LUKIC [Interpretation] If you can turn the map towards the

15 accused so that not only the Judges can see it but also the accused.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think it can be turned slightly.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

18 Q. Can you indicate to the Court approximately the location of

19 Cafe AS, the one that you have described, owned by Mr. Tadic?

20 A. Approximately there.

21 Q. Thank you. Okay. Where did Mr. Tadic live?

22 JUDGE SINGH: Forgive me, Mr. di Fazio. I think if there is a

23 hard copy P9, give it to him and ask him to mark it across so that it's

24 available as an exhibit.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I'll --

Page 1286

1 JUDGE SINGH: Officially, that is.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. Of course.

3 Q. You heard His Honour, Mr. Tihic. Could you please mark in black

4 marker pen the location of the cafe?

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. Might I see it, please, and perhaps it can be then shown to

7 Defence counsel? Perhaps it could be placed on the ELMO. Can you just

8 once again please show us? Just point with the pen to the location of the

9 cafe. I think I can see it marked. Just so the Chamber is clear of its

10 location.

11 A. [Indicates]

12 Q. Thank you. And is it fair to say that that's about the centre of

13 town or near the centre of town?

14 A. Yes, near the centre of town.

15 Q. Thank you. Were you -- I don't need to refer to the map any

16 further at this point.

17 Were you aware of Mr. Tadic, Mr. Miroslav Tadic, having any

18 particular political affiliations or membership of any political parties?

19 A. I don't know what happened following the multi-party elections,

20 whether he was in -- continued to be a member of the League of

21 Communists. I'm not quite sure.

22 Q. Thank you. Can I turn to another defendant, Mr. Simo Zaric,

23 please. Do you know him, and if so, how long have you known him?

24 A. Well, Simo, I've known Simo as far as back as 1970, when he was --

25 when I was judge and he was head of the police of Samac. Afterwards, I

Page 1287

1 became prosecutor, and Simo worked in the economy and then he worked in

2 the state security area. So we knew -- we knew each other quite well and

3 occasionally met and would sit together in cafes. Well, I visited his

4 home on a number occasions.

5 Q. Thank you. I just want to explore the nature of your relationship

6 just a little more.

7 You said that you knew him when you were a judge and he was the

8 head of police in Samac. Did you have professional dealings?

9 A. Well, he, as head of the police, and I as a judge, we had certain

10 contacts because we had to cooperate, in a sense.

11 Q. And about when did those sorts of contacts start, the contacts

12 between him as head of police and you as judge, about when?

13 A. Well, it started in 1976, I believe. I think it was 1976, when I

14 was elected judge, and this is when the contacts began. At the time, true

15 enough, the head of police was not a party actually in a case, but in

16 certain cases of some importance, sometimes the court would contact the

17 police, but specifically, there was one case where a policeman committed a

18 crime, and then in that particular case, we had established a direct

19 contact.

20 Q. For how long was Mr. Zaric head of police in Bosanski Samac, what

21 period of years?

22 A. I think Simo was for one term of office. It could have been four

23 years. I'm not quite sure what period of time. I am sure it was in 1975

24 and 1976. I don't know whether this was the case before that period of

25 time or after that period of time. Perhaps from 1972 to 1976.

Page 1288

1 Q. Was the appointment to the position of police chief or head of

2 police always one of a fixed term, a limited term?

3 A. Well, the appointments for the heads of police were always for a

4 term of four years. Of course, he could be dismissed from office if the

5 assembly of the republic secretary decided that this was necessary.

6 Q. What did he do following the expiry of his term as head of police?

7 A. I think that Simo was employed in Buducnost, a furniture factory

8 in Samac, and then in the representative office of Buducnost in Belgrade.

9 After that, he worked in the state security, in the centre of state

10 security in Doboj. Then he was head of an office of state security for

11 several Posavina municipalities, Samac, Modric, Odzak, Gradacac and

12 perhaps some more.

13 Q. Let's go through this in a bit more detail, please. Firstly, how

14 long was he in Belgrade?

15 A. I could not tell you precisely how long he had been in Belgrade.

16 Buducnost had a branch office there, and I believe that Simo was head of

17 that branch office, but I don't think it was a long time. I don't really

18 know.

19 Q. Can you tell us if it was a matter of weeks or days or years?

20 A. Perhaps a year, perhaps two years, perhaps three years.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 A. He was there frequently.

23 Q. Now, you say that he eventually returned.

24 A. Well, I think that he resided in Samac. He always had an

25 apartment in Samac, even when he was employed in Belgrade, and that his

Page 1289

1 family was in Samac. Therefore, I cannot really determine how long he was

2 absent. He would come on the weekends and during holidays. So I cannot

3 really tell.

4 Q. Thank you. Eventually, however, he took up a position with state

5 security in Doboj, you say. How do you know that? How can you make that

6 assertion to the Chamber?

7 A. Well, first of all, because I knew Simo. I know that he was

8 employed there. And in a certain way, I remember the local authorities

9 resisted this, the local committee resisted his appointment. It was a

10 subject discussed at some meetings.

11 Well, I visited Simo. I know that he came to Samac by car with

12 the people who were involved in this.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic.

14 MR. PANTELIC: Madam President, excuse me. A matter for

15 clarification. I think that it would be wise to direct the witness, when

16 he is mentioning a name of the town, to say in which part of the former

17 Yugoslavia it was, whether it's in Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia, in order to

18 help you in locating all these things. I mean, it might be useful for the

19 knowledge of this structure, although I'm sure that you are familiar with

20 this. You know where is Doboj and where is Samac, but still, for the

21 record, maybe.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll clarify that.

24 Q. Where is Doboj?

25 A. Doboj is in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Page 1290

1 Q. How far from Bosanski Samac?

2 A. About 65 kilometres from Bosanski Samac, in the direction of

3 Central Bosnia.

4 Q. Now, you've told us how you know that he was involved in the state

5 security service. How long did his involvement in that organisation

6 continue after his return from Belgrade?

7 A. Well, I think that he worked there until he reached retirement

8 age, before the war broke out, immediately before the war broke out, four

9 or five years. I'm not quite sure. I know that he worked in Doboj for

10 some time and then he worked in Modric. Modric is also in Bosnia and

11 Herzegovina.

12 Q. When you say you know that he worked in Doboj and sometime also in

13 Modric, can you tell the Chamber if by that you mean he was working in the

14 state security?

15 A. Yes. Yes, in the state security.

16 Q. What was the function of this body known as the state security?

17 And if you know, can you also tell the Chamber if that's a federal body or

18 if it's on a republican level?

19 A. Well, state security was simply the secret police, if we can put

20 it that way, and it was organised slightly differently than the regular

21 police. I think it had a stronger link both with the republic and the

22 Federation of Yugoslavia. Actually, it was all within the republic

23 Ministry, the federal Ministry, but it was a specially organised, a

24 special unity, entity, which had special treatment. It was protected. It

25 had strong rights. I don't know what privileges it had, but it had very

Page 1291

1 strong rights.

2 Q. Was it common for it to have a presence in municipalities? By

3 that I mean each municipality throughout Bosnia, possibly the rest of

4 Yugoslavia.

5 A. It was organised in such a way that detachments covered several

6 municipalities. The one in Modric covered four municipalities. It was

7 not organised on the basis of a single municipality. Perhaps in the case

8 of the larger municipalities, but in the case of the smaller

9 municipalities, there was one centre for four or five municipalities

10 because they did not deal with usual crime but with crimes against the

11 state, against the people. Political crimes in a sense, political crime.

12 Q. Do you know a gentleman named Fadil Topcagic? I'm not sure if I'm

13 pronouncing it correctly, but I think I can identify the name.

14 JUDGE SINGH: Mr. di Fazio, before you go on to a new name, I

15 think there may be a need to identify the four names he has mentioned just

16 now, identify the persons, that is; that is, the four defendants that he's

17 identified by name.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: I take -- I understand what Your Honour was

19 saying.

20 Q. You've spoken so far of only two defendants. The first one was

21 Dr. Blagoje Simic. Can you see him in Court? If so, can you point him

22 out?

23 A. Yes, I can see him. He's to my left. He's got a beard, a short

24 beard.

25 Q. Thank you. And the second gentleman whose attention I directed

Page 1292

1 you to, Mr. Miroslav Tadic, can you see him? Can you please identify

2 him.

3 A. Yes, I can see him, Miro. He's got a moustache.

4 Q. Thank you. I'm still talking -- I'm still asking you about Simo

5 Zaric.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. But the name I mentioned to you was Fadil Topcagic. First of all,

8 do you know Fadil Topcagic?

9 A. Yes, I know Fadil Topcagic.

10 Q. Just briefly can you tell us who he is, what his job is, where he

11 lives?

12 A. Fadil Topcagic lives in Bosanski Samac. He used to work in the

13 smelting plant, which in fact produced heating steam, the industrial

14 production of steam. He was related to Simo Zaric.

15 Q. What was the relationship?

16 A. Fadil was a brother-in-law to Zaric and they had good relations.

17 They went hunting together. Especially in the case of the 4th Detachment,

18 they sent even more time together.

19 Q. We'll get on to that later, but what I want to know is did they

20 have -- was it apparent to you from seeing them that they had a close

21 relationship? That's what I want to know. Is that the case or not?

22 A. Yes. In addition to being family, they were friends and they had

23 friendly relations.

24 Q. Can I ask you now to comment on any relationship between

25 Mr. Miroslav Tadic and Simo Zaric.

Page 1293












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and the English transcripts.













Page 1294

1 A. I believe their relationship stems from the fact that they come

2 from the same place, from the area of Odzak, and their friendship probably

3 draws its roots from there.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I'm about to move on to the

5 other two defendants, and would this be an appropriate time for the

6 break?

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We shall take our break and resume the

8 proceedings at 11.30.

9 --- Recess taken at 11.02 a.m.

10 --- On resuming at 11.33 a.m.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution counsel is continuing.


13 Q. I was asking you about your knowledge of these defendants. Can I

14 ask you if you know Mr. Milan Simic?

15 A. I think I barely know him. He belonged to a younger generation

16 than I, and I come from a long way away.

17 Q. I want to be clear about the meaning of your answer. Do you mean

18 that you don't know what he looks like, you've never met him, or is it the

19 case that you hardly know him at all but do know who he is?

20 A. I don't know him at all. Perhaps that would be the most accurate

21 description.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours just bear with me, please.

23 Q. And just for the sake of completeness, I think I omitted to ask

24 you if you could identify Mr. Simo Zaric [Realtime transcript read in

25 error "Mr. Simic Simo Zaric"] in the courtroom, please.

Page 1295

1 A. Yes. He is sitting behind Blagoje. He is wearing glasses, he has

2 grey hair, and he is wearing a tie.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

4 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I'm sorry. I have an intervention in

5 the transcript.


7 MR. ZECEVIC: It says, "if you could identify Mr. Simic Simo

8 Zaric." The "Simic" should be deleted.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Actually, the transcript -- the Simic should

10 be deleted so that we have "Mr. Simo Zaric."

11 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

13 Q. I'd just like to return now to the parties, the political

14 parties. You've described them in some detail so far. Can I ask you if

15 when the three nationalist parties - I'm referring to the HDZ, the SDA,

16 and the SDS - emerged, did they have a common policy in any respect at

17 all?

18 A. In Bosnia-Herzegovina, the parties, the nationalist parties,

19 emerged in the summer of 1992. I'm not sure, but it was within the space

20 of a couple of months from May to July. They emerged quite independently

21 from one another. They went to the elections also independently and they

22 worked for a change of power, for a change of the communist power which

23 had ruled in Yugoslavia for 50 years already, and that was their

24 commitment. There was no formal or informal coalition among them,

25 however, except that you could conclude from their public actions and

Page 1296

1 statements that it was their purpose to change the authorities in power.

2 And they made an agreement so -- because that was the only way to

3 ensure a majority, the majority of votes at the elections, and that was

4 what the national structure of the electorate was like. It is true that

5 the Party of Democratic Action and the HDZ worked for or advocated a

6 confederal system in Yugoslavia, where the central power would be slightly

7 weaker and the republican authorities would have more power, whereas the

8 SDS was for a stronger central power, for a centralised Federation, if I

9 can put it that way.

10 Q. I'll get on to this latter part of your answer shortly, but I just

11 want to establish one thing. Initially, there was, if I understand you,

12 and I'd like you to tell me if my understanding is correct, initially,

13 there was a convergence of policy insofar as the future of the -- or

14 insofar as the removal of the Communist Party was concerned. Initially,

15 the three nationalist parties I've referred to wanted to remove the

16 Communists from power. Is that the case?

17 A. Yes. That was their aim.

18 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me, just if you can with a yes or no

19 answer, did the issue of Yugoslavia's future become a matter of polemic, a

20 matter of controversy amongst the three parties I've referred to?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Just for the sake of correctness, in an earlier answer, you

23 mentioned that the nationalist parties emerged in the summer of 1992. Is

24 that, in fact, correct?

25 A. No. It was in the summer of 1990.

Page 1297

1 Q. Thank you. Now returning to this issue of controversy, the future

2 of the former Yugoslavia, can you just briefly tell us what the positions

3 were of the three nationalist parties that we are referring to on that

4 issue?

5 A. Well, the Party of Democratic Action, the SDA, advocated --

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

7 MR. PANTELIC: Madam President, I just got a note from my client.

8 Sorry, and on behalf of my colleagues also sorry, because that was, in

9 fact, our duty to follow this translation between English and Serbian, and

10 he told me that the interpreters are translating the "national parties" as

11 "nationalistic parties" and not "national." So there is a very big

12 difference --

13 JUDGE MUMBA: -- difference.

14 MR. PANTELIC: -- between these two terms.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I'm sure they've understood that. I hope the

16 Prosecutor will correct the matter with the witness.


18 Q. Well, you tell us what the situation is, Mr. Tihic. I note I've

19 referred to nationalist parties. When you talk about the SDA, the SDS,

20 and the HDZ, how do you describe them?

21 A. When I was speaking about the Party of Democratic Action, the SDA,

22 I always use the term "national party," not "nationalist," because there

23 is a dig difference. A national party recognises the existence of other

24 parties and another nations and has nothing against coexistence with them,

25 whereas a nationalist party is an extremist -- an extreme party holding

Page 1298

1 extreme attitudes, wishing to see other nations in a subordinated

2 position. In any case, the term denotes something extreme, or extremist,

3 and negative.

4 I believe with regard to the Party of Democratic Action, I believe

5 that it was a national party.

6 Q. Thank you. Now, my original question was for you to briefly tell

7 us what the positions of the three parties that I have been referring to

8 was on the question of Yugoslavia's future.

9 A. Briefly, the SDS saw the future of Yugoslavia in a stronger

10 centralisation of the Federation, with a stronger unitisation and the

11 strengthening of the center's power at the prejudice of the republics,

12 whereas the HDZ wanted a more confederalised system, whereas we as in the

13 SDA, advocated a gradual, a graduated confederation compromise between the

14 previous two options. I can elaborate on this, if you want me to.

15 Q. No. I just want your basic understanding of the three positions.

16 Did you ever have occasion to speak to Mr. Blagoje Simic about the

17 topic of the future of Yugoslavia's -- the future of Yugoslavia insofar as

18 the issue of the continued existence of the republics, the issue of

19 confederation as opposed to more centralised government, those sorts of

20 issues?

21 A. Yes, I did, very frequently at official meetings, and that was

22 precisely the stumbling-block between us, which in a certain way led to

23 all of this. I remember our private discussions as well, not on official

24 occasions but when we were sitting in a pub. I told him -- Blagoje Simic

25 said that, "Separating from Yugoslavia is out of the question. That would

Page 1299

1 entail a war. Don't even try this." And I would tell him, "That means

2 death. That means killing." And he replied to that, "We are ready even

3 for that." And I remember saying to him, "I wouldn't give the life of my

4 child for the whole of Bosnia." And he said, "Well, I would."

5 Blagoje was a younger man, and his attitude was more fervent.

6 Maybe that is a mark of youth, but that was the rhetoric.

7 Q. Thank you. This occasion, when he referred to the sacrifice of

8 children for the future of the country, can you identify when that was and

9 where it was?

10 A. We were sitting in a tavern owned by Hamdo Sukul, Hamdo Tubakovic,

11 and we had a few drinks and we started talking, because our personal

12 relationship wasn't a bad one. It was a pretty good. After meetings, we

13 often went to sit down and have a drink. We would speak more privately

14 about even official things, and thus we came to those topics.

15 It was the time when Milosevic was his paragon to emulate. But at

16 first I didn't take it seriously. I thought it was matter of political

17 tactics, the fact that he was being so severe in his views.

18 Q. Can you -- can I just interrupt at that point. You said that it

19 was a time when Milosevic was his paragon to emulate. What makes you say

20 that? What did you see or hear or observe that makes you say that of

21 Mr. Blagoje Simic?

22 A. Milosevic was then a political example for all Serbs to be

23 followed. That's how many people saw him. It was my personal assessment

24 that Blagoje Simic conducted himself in that way. That was what I

25 gathered from those meetings and private occasions. He was -- that was

Page 1300

1 his attitude, his general attitude, the way he held himself. But we never

2 discussed it.

3 Q. Was the issue of possible war ever discussed between you and

4 Mr. Blagoje Simic?

5 A. I have already mentioned this occasion at the pub when he said

6 what he said. And otherwise, the question of war and peace was discussed

7 on every occasion, in the local commune, in the assembly. All the events

8 around us were reflected on our discussions, and we were all worried that

9 it might also happen -- the same thing might happen in Bosnia and

10 Herzegovina, that it might spread to Bosnia and Herzegovina.

11 Q. Thank you. However, I'm primarily interested in any utterances or

12 statements made to you by Mr. Blagoje Simic on the question of war. If

13 they were made or not at all, please let me know, but that's what I'm

14 interested in?

15 A. That is what he said to me clearly. "Tihic, listen. What you

16 want, this secession from Yugoslavia, if you want that, that is out of the

17 question. Serbs are a nation who are used to war, and we will go to war

18 if necessary." And I replied to him as I already described.

19 That was the time when the sessions of the BH parliament were held

20 and at the time of the referendum about the independence of Bosnia and

21 Herzegovina. So that was the immediate reason for this discussion.

22 Q. You've told us of discussing these matters with Mr. Blagoje

23 Simic. Did you ever have occasion to speak about the same topics with any

24 of the other defendants in this case?

25 A. At those meetings we discussed war and peace. There were meetings

Page 1301

1 held constantly in order to prevent this. Simo Zaric was present on

2 behalf of the Yugoslav People's Army and he also spoke about this, and he

3 also represented the 4th Detachment. There were also meetings held in the

4 municipality; for instance, one meeting just before the attack on Samac.

5 That meeting was attended by a colonel from Tisina - I believe Pupkovic

6 was his name - and he said that Samac would become a Serbian municipality,

7 Gradacac and Orasje would be Muslim municipalities. And we were asked to

8 declare our views on that and he gave us an ultimatum to declare our

9 positions on that until the following Wednesday. And he also said, "If

10 you don't agree to this, we know what we are going to do." He didn't

11 specify what it was, but it was implied.

12 Q. Were any of the defendants present at this meeting that you've

13 just mentioned?

14 A. I believe that meeting was attended by Blagoje, because that's

15 what he was saying. And I believe that Simo Zaric must have been there

16 too, because he usually came in the company of those military men. There

17 were representatives of all political parties. It was a security council

18 in its broader composition.

19 Q. Thank you. Now, I just want to get a bit more clarity around this

20 meeting. First of all, you said it was just before the attack. Can

21 you -- let me ask you directly. What was the date of this attack, this

22 attack that you refer to?

23 A. I think this meeting was held on a Wednesday and the attack on

24 Samac was on Friday morning, so it might have been the 14th or the 15th

25 and the attack was on the 17th.

Page 1302

1 Q. Where was the meeting held?

2 A. It was held in the building of the Municipal Assembly, on the

3 premises of the Assembly of Samac.

4 Q. Thank you. Now, you've already told us that Blagoje Simic was

5 present, Simo Zaric was present, another gentleman named Pupkovic was

6 present. Can you tell us of any other personalities who were present at

7 the meeting?

8 A. By name, I know Filip Evic was present, because he said that

9 17.000 Croats would not allow Samac to become a municipality. I remember

10 there was Izetbegovic, and I believe late Milos Bogdanovic also attended;

11 Mirko Jovanovic, president of the Executive Council; Mato Nujic, president

12 of the municipality. The whole team.

13 Q. Right. That's what I'd like to know and I'd like the Chamber to

14 be informed about the whole team. In what capacity was Mr. Izetbegovic

15 there? Was he there in his private capacity or was he representing, for

16 instance, a party or an organisation?

17 A. You see, Izetbegovic was their ex officio, as president of the

18 Executive Council, and Mato Nujic was president of the municipality. When

19 I say Mirko Jovanovic, he was president of the Executive Board. Milos

20 Bogdanovic was president of the Secretariat for National Defence. Milos

21 Dervic was president of the HDZ. I don't remember whether Boro attended

22 as president of the SDP. Maybe somebody was there from the Alliance of

23 Reformist Forces. Probably Simo Simic on behalf of the Liberals.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. If Your Honours please, I think -- I

25 understand there is to be some sort of --

Page 1303

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. There will be that at 1200 hours and we shall

2 receive some sign to do that.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: May I continue?


5 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: It will be at 1200 hours, and we shall get the

7 obvious sign, which everybody will see, and the announcement will be made.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll just continue, and perhaps the Court will

9 inform me when --



12 Q. Who is Boro?

13 A. Borislav Pisarevic was president of the SDP in Samac at the time,

14 and he is a lawyer nowadays.

15 Q. The gentleman in Court representing Mr. Simo Zaric?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, you've told us of who was present at the meeting, you've told

18 us a little bit of what the topics were. I want you to expand on the

19 topic, please. Was there a main topic of conversation, and if so, how did

20 that proceed to be discussed or deliberated on at the meeting?

21 A. It was the only topic. It was an extraordinary meeting. Blagoje

22 was there and Simo was there, and the colonel from the JNA came with

23 them. Blagoje spoke and proposed that the four Posavina municipalities

24 should become: Gradacac a Muslim one; Orasje, Odzak, Croatian; and Samac,

25 Serbian. I discussed then and I objected to this. I said that Samac

Page 1304

1 could only be Bosnian and should belong to all the nations. So here we

2 had representatives of Gradacac --

3 [Three minutes of silence observed according to UN directive]

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Counsel may proceed, please.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. If Your Honour pleases, I'm just

6 waiting for the transcript to -- thank you. Just a moment, Mr. Tihic.

7 I'm just reading your answer. Thank you.

8 Q. Now, you said that Mr. Simic proposed the division of

9 municipalities into different entities in which only, as I understand your

10 answer, only one ethnic group would live. Was that the first time you had

11 ever heard such a proposal or such an idea emanate from him?

12 A. Well, Blagoje Simic proposed that the municipalities Odzak and

13 Orasje should be Croatian municipalities, Gradacac should be a Muslim

14 municipality, and Samac a Serbian municipality, which did not mean that

15 they would be exclusively Croatian, Muslim, or Serbian municipalities but

16 that individual ethnic groups should have a prevailing influence in these

17 individual municipalities. They were not separate entities. We didn't

18 speak of entities at the time. I said that I objected to that, that the

19 municipalities should be all Bosnian, that they shouldn't have these

20 national attributes. Filip Evic, on behalf of the HDZ, also objected to

21 that. And now I remember that the president of the municipality of

22 Gradacac, Sefko, also attended the meeting. And finally, the meeting

23 ended. Blagoje said that "You have by Wednesday time to state your views

24 whether you're in favour of this division or not. If you do not accept

25 these proposals, the Serbs will know what to undertake."

Page 1305

1 Q. You've just said that he said that "You have by Wednesday to state

2 your views." Do I take it from that answer that the meeting occurred at

3 some point before the Wednesday?

4 A. Well, the event probably took place on Wednesday, and this was to

5 be done by the next meeting on Wednesday, to be held on Wednesday.

6 Q. Thank you. Yes. Now, you've told us about what he said at this

7 particular meeting. What I am interested in is this: Was that the first

8 time you ever heard such a proposal from Mr. Blagoje Simic, or had he

9 mentioned a similar notion at an earlier time?

10 A. I think that he mentioned it the first time then, at least

11 officially.

12 Q. Did he ever tell the members of the meeting or tell you at the

13 meeting the reasons why there should be this redivision of

14 municipalities? What was the point of this?

15 A. In those days in Bosnia and Herzegovina there were Serbian

16 autonomous areas being formed as illegal institutions, not within the

17 framework of the Constitution of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and they

18 frequently not only covered municipalities where the Serbs lived but also

19 where Serbs were in a minority and where other nations were the majority.

20 And most probably the decision about the Serb municipality of Samac was in

21 accordance with the policy of forming Serb autonomous areas. I think that

22 the Serb autonomous areas, at least in paper, covered two-thirds

23 of -- perhaps two-thirds of Bosnia and Herzegovina, although the Serbs

24 represented one-third of the population of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Tihic, and I understand why you gave that last

Page 1306

1 answer, but I'm still trying to confine you to the meeting itself. You've

2 told us that he made this proposal at the meeting. At the meeting itself,

3 do you ever recall him providing reasons to the assembled people why this

4 should be so, or did he just say that that was his position?

5 A. He said that in Posavina in those municipalities, he wished one

6 municipality to have a prevailing Serb influence, because the Serbs would

7 then be a majority in those municipalities. I don't know what else he

8 said on the subject.

9 Q. Thank you. Now you have discussed or referred to Serb autonomous

10 areas. Can you tell the Chamber of the declaration of any Serb autonomous

11 areas that you became aware of and when the first such time was?

12 A. Well, the Serb autonomous areas began to be proclaimed as of

13 summer 1991. I know that the one which should have included Samac

14 happened in November. Actually, it was proclaimed in November 1991, I

15 think. And here Blagoje Simic was vice-president of the Assembly of the

16 Serb Autonomous Province of Northern Bosnia. These Serb autonomous areas,

17 they tried to overtake the competence of the regular bodies of power.

18 Q. Can we focus on the Serb Autonomous Area of Northern Bosnia,

19 please. Firstly, how did you become aware of the existence of such an

20 idea or proposal?

21 A. I think that this was also published in the mass media, and it was

22 a sequence of events that consisted in forming autonomous areas of this

23 kind throughout Bosnia. It was no secret.

24 Q. Following it being made known to the public, did you speak to

25 members of the other parties about it?

Page 1307

1 A. Well, we, as a party, in fact condemned the forming of those

2 areas, because we thought that the national division of the territory of

3 B and H was not possible because the nation was mixed. There were no pure

4 ethnic territories, especially not within the divisions that they had

5 proclaimed, the boundaries that they had proclaimed, because if something

6 receives an attribute of Serb, Bosnian, or Croat, then the other nations

7 are no longer equal. There was no equality there. There are some who

8 were subordinate.

9 Q. Following the announcement of this Serb autonomous area in

10 Northern Bosnia, did you discuss it specifically with Mr. Blagoje Simic?

11 A. Well, I believe I did, because it was an important question, an

12 important decision. I cannot remember the details of that discussion. We

13 officially ignored the existence of those Serb autonomous area.

14 They justified that move in saying that they were protecting the

15 Serb people. That was the explanation at that particular political moment

16 in which Yugoslavia found itself in.

17 Q. Was there any manifestation of this Serb autonomous district? For

18 instance, were there public meetings of the leadership of this entity,

19 publications, things like that, something to demonstrate that it's more

20 than an announcement?

21 A. Well, you see, it was an embryo, so to speak, of the subsequent

22 formation of Serb municipalities. Then within the municipality, the

23 formation of a Serb police, Serbian TO, and ultimately the Serb republic

24 in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

25 The police, in the summer of 1991, the police began being formed

Page 1308

1 then. The municipality where the Serbs were, a majority informed the

2 legal police that they no longer recognised its competencies. So this, in

3 fact, functioned.

4 At the same time, all these people in these Serb areas were also

5 within the legal institutions of Bosnia and Herzegovina, ranging from the

6 republic to the municipalities. So in fact, it was a parallel structure.

7 Q. Yes. In the case of Blagoje Simic, did he, following the

8 announcement of the SAO for Northern Bosnia, did he continue to perform

9 his duties and functions within the existing municipal assembly?

10 A. Yes. He continued to be vice-president of the municipal

11 assembly.

12 Q. Well, did you ever say to him, "How can you" -- did you ever

13 discuss his dual public life with him?

14 A. We probably did. We had to discuss the matter, but I -- I can't

15 recall the talks we had and what they were about.

16 Q. Thank you. I'd like to show you a document.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: For the convenience of Defence counsel, so they

18 know what document I'm referring to, they will know of this document as C4

19 on the list of exhibits. For the purposes of the transcript, I'll refer

20 to it as the excerpts from the minutes of the Serb Autonomous District of

21 Northern Bosnia, dated the 14th of November, 1991, and apparently signed

22 by a gentleman named Nikola Perisic.

23 I wonder if the B/C/S version could be produced to Mr. Tihic and

24 the Tribunal -- sorry, the Chamber should also have -- and the Chamber

25 should also have the English translation, and I'm happy to say that this

Page 1309

1 is a translation on this occasion.

2 Do the members of the Chamber all have the document? And perhaps

3 it could be placed on the ELMO device.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number, please, exhibit number?

5 THE REGISTRAR: This document, which is Excerpts from the Minutes

6 of the Serb Autonomous District of Northern Bosnia shall be marked for the

7 record Prosecutor's Exhibit P10.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Is it the Serbo-Croat version or the English

9 version? Which one is being numbered, the Serbo-Croat version?

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, did the Prosecution want to admit

11 into evidence both or the --

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, I think yesterday it was suggested that in

13 many of these cases they be given an initial identification number, which

14 I think should be the B/C/S, and then followed by a lettering. So, for

15 instance, if this is P8, the English version could be given the

16 designation P8A.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: That type of the sequence. So if you can use the

18 system which you are using.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, for the record, the B/C/S version

20 will be Prosecutor's Exhibit P10 ter and the English version will be P10.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.


23 Q. Okay. Now, have you first of all, have you ever seen that

24 document before?

25 A. No, I haven't seen the excerpts from the minutes before.

Page 1310

1 MR. DI FAZIO: I think the witness -- I think the document that's

2 been placed on the ELMO is the English version. It probably would be

3 better, would it not, for the B/C/S version to be placed there if the

4 witness is going to refer to various aspects of it? I've got an extra

5 B/C/S version here, and that can ensure that the witness has one directly

6 in front of him and that there's one on the ELMO as well. Thank you.

7 Q. Now, firstly, the document purports -- purports to be the product

8 of the founding session of the Serb Autonomous District of Northern Bosnia

9 assembly held on the 4th of November, 1991. How does that accord with

10 your memory of the creation of the SAO for Northern Bosnia, as far as the

11 date is concerned?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Sorry, what does that mean, that it accords with your memory of

14 the announcement of the district on about that date?

15 A. I think that -- I believe that it was in autumn of 1991, the

16 proclamation of the Serb Autonomous District of Northern Bosnia. So I

17 think November 4th would be that --

18 Q. Thank you.

19 A. -- point in time.

20 Q. Further down, it suggests -- it asserts that the some persons were

21 nominated to the chair, including Dr. Blagoje Simic and a number of other

22 people. Do you see that?

23 A. I can see that. I can see who was present.

24 Q. Thank you. Do the names -- other than, of course, Mr. Blagoje

25 Simic, do the other names that you see there, can you comment upon them?

Page 1311

1 Were they members of the SDS or were they known to you?

2 A. Well, I would like to say that all the more important

3 representatives of the SDS were present, those who were in the bodies of

4 authority of the municipality of that area, and that the member of the

5 executive council of the SDS of Bosnia and Herzegovina was present. So it

6 was a very high level of representatives of those areas from amongst the

7 ranks of the SDS.

8 Now, if you permit me, I would like to continue. I can see who

9 was elected as president, as vice-president of the Serb autonomous

10 district. I see that Perisic was president.

11 What is also interesting to note from these minutes is that they

12 proclaim the Northern Autonomous District of Bosnia as an inseparable part

13 of the federal state. Bosnia and Herzegovina was not mentioned. That

14 reflected this period of the policy of dividing up Bosnia and

15 Herzegovina.

16 Finally, on the third page, there is the decision on the

17 proclamation of the Serb Autonomous District of Northern Bosnia as an

18 inseparable part of the federal state.

19 Q. Mr. Tihic, of course the document speaks for itself in many

20 respects, but can you just help us with some aspects of it? First of all,

21 who is Nikola Perisic? Do you know that name? Does it mean anything to

22 you?

23 A. No. I can't remember him. I know Bjelosevic, Milovan

24 Bjelosevic. He was chief of the police, of the security service of Doboj,

25 who was elected vice-president. I know him.

Page 1312

1 Q. Thank you. One thing that the document seems to be silent upon is

2 the geographical extent of this district or Serb autonomous district. Did

3 you ever come to know of that, the geographical extent of it?

4 A. Well, as far as I can remember, it would include the

5 municipalities of Doboj, Maglaj, Teslic, Derventa, Modrica, Samac, Brod.

6 Gracanica, I believe, also was included. I even think Brcko. It covered

7 Gradacac. It covered Gradacac too.

8 Q. I've almost finished the document. Just two more aspects of it.

9 Firstly, on what I think is the second page -- yes. On the second page,

10 with the reference AD-2b), do you see that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. It says there that Dr. Blagoje Simic himself presented to the

13 assembled representatives the proposal for the establishment of this

14 autonomous district. Quite apart from what the document says, are you

15 aware or do you have any knowledge of him being the man who presented the

16 proposal to this meeting?

17 A. I have no such information.

18 Q. Thank you. Page 3, and it's just above -- just above paragraph

19 AD-2f). It says that Dr. Blagoje Simic was elected vice-president with

20 three votes in favour.

21 Quite apart from what the document says, did you have any direct

22 knowledge of his being vice-president of this body?

23 A. Yes. I knew that because it was published. It was made public.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm going to leave this document now, if Your

Page 1313

1 Honours please, and I would like to deal with another document. For the

2 purposes of Defence counsel, they'll find that on the list of Prosecution

3 exhibits as C6.

4 The same situation applies here, if Your Honours please. There is

5 again, happily, a full translation, and I will be seeking to tender into

6 evidence the B/C/S version and the translation, which can be given a

7 subsidiary exhibit number.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the numbers, please?

9 THE REGISTRAR: This document shall be marked for the record

10 Prosecutor's Exhibit P11, and the B/C/S version shall be marked for the

11 record P11 ter.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours just bear with me. I just want

13 to discuss a matter with my colleagues before I continue with the

14 document.

15 [Prosecution counsel confer]

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE SINGH: Mr. di Fazio, what is the title of this document,

18 please?

19 MR. DI FAZIO: I shall be referring to it as "The decision on the

20 establishment of the Serbian municipality of Bosanski Samac." There are

21 probably several descriptions you could give to the document, but for the

22 sake of --

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Uniformity.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, and clarity, I think it's probably best to

25 describe it in that way since that's its main function.

Page 1314

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

3 Q. Now, Mr. Tihic, you have already mentioned in evidence the

4 creation of a Serbian municipality of Bosanski Samac, and I think you've

5 had an opportunity now to look at the document. My first question is:

6 Have you seen it before?

7 A. No, I haven't. I have heard about it, but I've never seen the

8 document in its entirety before.

9 Q. Just look at some of the features of it. First of all, in the

10 first paragraph it says that a decision -- it purports to say that a

11 decision was adopted on the 29th of February on the establishment of the

12 Serbian municipality of Bosanski Samac. Does that accord with your memory

13 of events?

14 A. Yes, it does, and that decision was also known for the fact that

15 Ilija Ristic was appointed president of that municipality, and he is a man

16 from Samac.

17 Q. And I think you will find his signature at the end of the

18 document; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. It also goes on to say that, perhaps inconsistently, that there is

21 a Serbian - a Serbian - municipality of Bosanski Samac and Pelagicevo, and

22 in Article 1, that they shall be established but that the seat shall be in

23 Bosanski Samac. It's not absolutely clear to me if this document purports

24 to be establishing two municipalities or whether it's only going to -- it

25 purports to establish one called Bosanski Samac and Pelagicevo. Do you

Page 1315

1 have -- can you add anything to that?

2 A. Well, on the surface of it, it looks as if it were one

3 municipality bearing the name of Bosanski Samac and Pelagicevo. It's

4 certainly one municipality comprising these settlements.

5 Q. Where is Pelagicevo?

6 A. It's a village roughly near Gradacac, between Samac and Gradacac,

7 a rather large Serbian village. Article 2, if I can refer to it, lists

8 the settlements where the Serbs lived, those four municipalities, but I

9 also see here certain settlements with mixed population, and it's not so

10 clearly defined, like Orasje, Gradacac. The aim seems to be to form a

11 Serbian municipality which is not even a geographical unit, because you

12 see villages here like Donja Dubica and some other villages which are not

13 contiguous. So it's not a geographical whole. It's not a compact unit in

14 terms of territory. And mainly you see here listed deputies of the SDS

15 and others are just given the possibility to join. And it says here an

16 equal status is preserved in the existing assemblies, pending the final

17 settlement or arrangement. Also a referendum is mentioned here. I don't

18 remember a referendum. Because here in the preamble it is mentioned that

19 there was a referendum held on 9th and 10th of November, 1991.

20 Q. Yes. Can you comment about that? Is it your position that you do

21 not remember any such event occurring, that is, a referendum on about

22 those dates?

23 A. A special referendum for the formation of the Serbian municipality

24 of Samac was not held on the 9th and 10th of November.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

Page 1316

1 Before we proceed any further with the document, it might be

2 useful at this stage, if Your Honours please, for me to tender into

3 evidence another small map which might assist in the geography that's

4 referred to in this document. I believe copies are available for all

5 members of the Chamber. Copies have been served on the Defence. It is

6 part of the new bundle of maps that were admitted recently. And perhaps

7 for the purposes of the transcript, it can be entitled "Map of Bosanski

8 Samac and Odzak and Surrounding Areas," depicting Croatia, Bosnia and

9 Herzegovina and Serbia, created on the 22nd of August, 2001 by the Office

10 of the Prosecutor. And this, I think, would be suitable for the ELMO

11 machine. And I wonder if it could also be given an exhibit number.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the number, please.

13 THE REGISTRAR: This map shall be marked for the record as

14 Prosecutor's Exhibit P12.


16 Q. Now, Mr. Tihic, you have the ELMO showing this map which depicts a

17 number of little towns. Perhaps if we could just focus in a little bit

18 closer to it, just a little bit, so we can read the writing on our

19 screens. And using a marker, can you just show us on the map, just point

20 out where Crkvina is.

21 A. [Marks]

22 Q. Thank you. It refers to Donja Crkvina. That expression will

23 arise, I think, from time to time in the evidence. What does "Donja"

24 mean?

25 A. Crkvina is just one village. It depends on the direction from

Page 1317

1 which you are viewing. It can be upper or lower. It's one whole.

2 Q. Thank you. And also if you look at the map, can you identify for

3 the Chamber where Pelagicevo is?

4 A. Yes. Those are all boundaries from before the 17th of April.

5 Pelagicevo is near Gradacac.

6 Q. This map doesn't, I don't think, include all of the names of towns

7 mentioned in that area, in Article 2, I should say. Just casting your eye

8 over the towns, can you tell us which is the westernmost town that is

9 mentioned? And if it's not indicated on the map, perhaps you could show

10 us.

11 A. It's Novi Grad. I will try. Novi Grad and Dubica. It's

12 approximately here, on the bank of the Sava River. Novi Grad is on the

13 bank of the Sava River, up there. I drew the line a bit imprecisely.

14 Q. Thank you. That's quite sufficient for my purposes. And what

15 about the southernmost town? Can you see the southernmost town that's

16 referred to in Article 2? If not, can you indicate where its position

17 might lie on that map?

18 A. Here. The southernmost settlement might be Pelagicevo or Srpske

19 Ledenice. Srpske Ledenice was also near Gradacac, so it's one of these

20 two, or both of them.

21 Q. We're talking about the same level as Pelagicevo -- about the same

22 latitude, I should say.

23 A. I'm sorry. If we take -- but this concept, Serbian Gradacac, do

24 we mean the town of Gradacac? Because if we do, then it is the

25 southernmost one.

Page 1318

1 Q. Thank you for that comment.

2 A. If we take it that this is the town of Serbian Gradacac, then it

3 is the southernmost settlement.

4 Q. Thank you. And what about the easternmost town that's mentioned?

5 Where would that be on the map?

6 A. I think perhaps maybe Cerik or Orasje. I don't know which one of

7 them lies more to the east. Or perhaps Loncari. Loncari, I believe, is

8 the easternmost settlement.

9 Q. Is that approximately on a line with Orasje, which you can see on

10 the map there?

11 A. Maybe here. I'm not quite sure how precise I'm being here,

12 but ...

13 Q. Bosanski Samac had therefore expanded, according to this

14 document.

15 A. Yes. It was expanded to cover these four municipalities, and some

16 Croatian villages were left out which otherwise are included in the

17 structure of the Bosanski Samac municipality.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I'm done with the map.

19 Q. Article 5, please, of the document. It refers to the Assembly

20 consisting of SDS party members and permitting boards of -- other boards

21 of Serbian people to become members. Was that a fact that was generally

22 known following the announcement of this Serbian municipality of Bosanski

23 Samac, namely, that members of the Serbian Democratic Party would make up

24 this particular Assembly?

25 A. The establishment of the Serbian municipality of Bosanski Samac

Page 1319

1 and Pelagicevo was proclaimed, and as far as I know, those were only

2 representatives of the SDS. Deputies or board members from other parties

3 were not included, as far as I know.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm done with that document. Perhaps it could be

5 returned to the Court.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

7 MR. PANTELIC: Madam President, I'm not so sure. Maybe it's my

8 mistake. The word in Serbian language --

9 Q. You said objavljeno?

10 A. What are we talking about?

11 Q. [Interpretation] We were talking about these decisions concerning

12 assemblies, that it was published.

13 A. It was published in the media.

14 MR. PANTELIC: In English translation I found the word that it was

15 proclaimed, but it was -- the right word would be "publicly pronounced,"

16 publicly -- I mean, in terms of the public media, public knowledge.

17 Publicly pronounced. I don't know. Maybe the interpreters have

18 better -- it's not "proclaimed."

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. If the counsel for the Prosecution could

20 clarify that with the witness, please.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: I will. I will. Firstly, if Mr. Pantelic could

22 perhaps assist by telling us where in the document the controversial word

23 appears.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: In the transcript or the document. Mr. Pantelic, if

25 you could point out where.

Page 1320

1 MR. PANTELIC: In fact, it was not in the document. Mr. Tihic

2 said it was just proclaimed, but --

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Where in the transcript? Which line?

4 MR. PANTELIC: In the transcript. Sorry. Sorry. 57 page, line

5 12.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I'm sure the Prosecutor can see that.

7 MR. PANTELIC: So you see, the sense of proclaimed, it's a little

8 bit general, but the other direction of this explanation is maybe useful

9 for --

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I'm sure the --

11 MR. PANTELIC: -- as a matter of clarification.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecutor will clarify with the witness.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

14 Q. I think we were talking about your knowledge, your understanding

15 of when this body was made known. Was it made known by way of

16 proclamation or was it made known by way of a public announcement of some

17 sort? I think that's what the controversy is over. Can you clarify

18 that?

19 A. It was announced publicly in the media, in the mass media, be it

20 Radio Samac or some newspaper, but anyway, we all knew about it. The

21 establishment of the Serbian municipality of Samac was made public or

22 announced publicly.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 JUDGE SINGH: I think -- just forgive me for a minute. If we go

25 back to the document P10 and we look at page 3, the session to proclaim

Page 1321

1 the Serb Autonomous District of Northern Bosnia on an inseparable part of

2 the Federal state, it uses the word "proclaim" there.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honour just bear with me while I get the

4 document.

5 Yes. I have the document, and I see on the third page, if Your

6 Honour pleases, a decision to proclaim the Serb Autonomous District of

7 Northern Bosnia.

8 I'm not sure of Your Honour's inquiry. What is concerning Your

9 Honour?

10 JUDGE SINGH: Really here is the word "establishment" on top of

11 P11. So I'm just wanting to inquire if that's a correct interpretation.

12 MR. PANTELIC: If I can be of assistance. Interpretation is

13 okay. I mean, it's absolutely in accordance with the Serbian language.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Does Mr. Pantelic's answer satisfy Your Honour on

15 that issue?

16 JUDGE SINGH: Yes, if he's satisfied that the word "establishment"

17 is used in P11, we'll leave it at that.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: I want to turn now to the --

19 JUDGE MUMBA: I see counsel for the Defence.

20 MR. ZECEVIC: We have in mind that Your Honours were referring to

21 the document P10, because P10, and the transcript says P11. That is why I

22 made this intervention. It says -- it's line -- it's changed. Now it's

23 changed. Thank you so much.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: It's okay now.

25 MR. ZECEVIC: Still in the row 25 -- 59th page, row 25, it says

Page 1322

1 "P11." That is the intervention. The page 59, row 25.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Mr. Pantelic did explain about the

3 interpretation, as far as Serbo-Croat is concerned. Maybe we can get it

4 from Mr. Pantelic again.

5 MR. PANTELIC: Madam President, Your Honours, if Honourable Judge

6 Singh is relying on evidence P11, it is not the case, but Judge Singh

7 said, and he was relying on the document with ERN number -- last three

8 digits are 372, which is P10, about the establishing of the SAO region of

9 Northern Bosnia. So maybe it's a misunderstanding.

10 On the bottom line is, as far as I am concerned, is that the word

11 in paragraph AD-3 of said excerpts from the minutes of said document,

12 whether it corresponds to the Serbian B/C/S language, and as I said, yes,

13 the notion and the interpretation is good. Yes. Thank you.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Then we can move on. We're almost at

15 1.00.

16 Yes, counsel for the Prosecution.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: I was about to move on to another topic.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Microphone.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: I apologise. I was about to move on to another

21 topic. This would be a natural break in matters.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It's 1.00, so we'll continue on Monday at 0930

23 hours.

24 MR. PANTELIC: Madam President, do we have just 30 seconds,

25 please?

Page 1323


2 MR. PANTELIC: I want to, with your leave, to raise two motions.

3 First motion and the basis for the first motion is the Defence for Blagoje

4 Simic would like to respectfully ask this Trial Chamber to visit a place,

5 to visit Bosanski Samac municipality in the region, if it's possible,

6 according to the technical issues and the other stuff.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: What are your reasons?

8 MR. PANTELIC: Basis of my motion is that I think that Trial

9 Chamber will have a better understanding of the area, of the geographical

10 territory of the -- you know, spirit of this place, actually.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Any other reason? Is this just a question of

12 the Chamber having a better understanding of the spirit of the people in

13 that area or the geographical extent of the area?

14 MR. PANTELIC: That is correct, and about the buildings, and about

15 Cafe AS, about the municipality, about the region where all these events

16 were occurred. Of course, subject to finally your discretion and the

17 other technical issues.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, because the one way, if the Trial Chamber felt

19 it necessary, would appoint an official photographer, who would produce a

20 recording.

21 MR. PANTELIC: Another motion is based only the case law within

22 this Tribunal, according to the jurisprudence of this Tribunal, and I

23 would formulate our motion - I believe that I am speaking on behalf of all

24 of my clients - also subject to certain specific restrictions, which is

25 that for each new witness coming here, the position of the defendants

Page 1324

1 should be changed on some way, with the rotation or whatever, for the

2 purposes of the identification and also, you know, the establishing the

3 personal knowledge of the witnesses. Of course, subject to specific

4 condition of the co-defendant, Mr. Milan Simic, who is obviously in this

5 wheelchair. And I think, as a layperson, that only these three

6 angle -- these three position could be suitable for him if our motion

7 might be granted.


9 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: If I may quickly ask the Prosecution on the latter

11 one of switching places for each witness, for each Prosecution witness who

12 comes, because he's bothered about -- we've this raised before.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: I've got no problem with that at all, none

14 whatsoever.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: No problem with that. Yes. So the Registry

16 assistant will make necessarily arrangements.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: For the sake of the record, I've got a lot more

18 problems with visiting Bosanski Samac --

19 JUDGE MUMBA: I cannot hear you.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: For the sake of the record, I have a lot more

21 problems with the notion of visiting Bosanski Samac to ascertain the

22 spirit of the area. The Prosecution position is that that's unnecessary,

23 and the Chamber can be totally served in getting to understand the town

24 and the municipality by the evidence from the witnesses, the photographs

25 that we'll produce, and the maps, and that, in the Prosecution's

Page 1325












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and the English transcripts.













Page 1326

1 submission, is quite enough.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Chamber will take time to decide that,

3 whether it is necessary, for purposes of our verdicts in this particular

4 trial, for the Chamber to visit the place as it is today, considering the

5 fact that we are dealing with crimes which were committed some time back.

6 So the Chamber will take time and make inquiries and find out whether it

7 will be necessary. If it will be necessary, the Chamber will give notice

8 to all those concerned.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: The court will rise.

11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.12 p.m.,

12 to be reconvened on Monday, the 17th day

13 of September, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.