Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1693

1 Wednesday, 26 September 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning. Will the registrar please call the

7 case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Morning, Your Honours. This is case number

9 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Milan Simic, Miroslav

10 Tadic, and Simo Zaric.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Before the Prosecution starts, I just want to

12 tell Mr. Pantelic that an investigation was made about the briefcase of

13 your client, and the registry assistant will give you details during the

14 break of what transpired. Thank you.

15 The Prosecution, please, is continuing its examination-in-chief.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.


18 [Witness answered through interpreter]

19 Examination by Mr. di Fazio: [Continued]

20 Q. Mr. Lukac, yesterday you were describing conditions in the TO

21 building in the first week that you were there before being transferred to

22 Brcko, and you described a number of beatings and beatings in which the

23 man Lugar participated in attacking you. Were you interrogated at all

24 during that week?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1694

1 Q. Can you tell the Chamber the form the interrogation took and if

2 indeed there was more than one interrogation?

3 A. There was a total of three such interrogations. I talked about

4 one of them in the past few days, and it pertains to the interrogation by

5 Stevan Todorovic. The second interrogation occurred during the middle of

6 that first week, when I was taken by the Serb police to one of the offices

7 of the crime prevention police in the SUP building or, rather, the police

8 station building. Then I was interviewed and a statement in writing was

9 taken with regard to certain events that took place before the war in the

10 territory of the municipality of Bosanski Samac.

11 Q. Did any violence accompany that interview, or was it relatively

12 peaceful?

13 A. That interview was a normal one, without any kind of physical

14 coercion.

15 Q. What were you being questioned about? Was there a theme to the

16 interview?

17 A. As far as I can remember, it was of a general nature from the

18 point of view of what I knew about the arming of the Croats and Bosniaks

19 in the territory of the municipality of Bosanski Samac, that kind of

20 thing. I can't remember the details exactly of this particular

21 interview.

22 Q. Thank you. And that's the second interview that you described. I

23 think you mentioned three. Can you recall the third?

24 A. The third interview, I think, took place on the next day after the

25 second interview. And that's when members of this special police talked

Page 1695

1 to me, those who were from Serbia.

2 Q. Can you remember the names or nicknames of any of these special

3 police?

4 A. From the very outset, this interview was attended by Srecko

5 Radovanovic, nicknamed Debeli, that I mentioned yesterday. There were two

6 persons who I did not know, except that I do remember one of these persons

7 because it was only that person who was wearing a red beret on his head.

8 And I think that at that time, that is to say, during those first days, he

9 was the one who commanded that unit.

10 At some stage of the interview -- and it was taking place in my

11 office, in the office where I had worked before the war. At one stage,

12 this Slobodan Miljkovic, nicknamed Lugar, walked into the office.

13 Q. I'll just ask you to pause there. Did you -- at this stage, you

14 were still in the TO? Is that your position? Still housed, imprisoned in

15 the TO?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So were you transferred from the TO across the road to the SUP for

18 this interrogation?

19 A. That's right.

20 Q. Did anything happen to you on the way across?

21 A. As I was getting out of the Territorial Defence building yard into

22 the street, I noticed that at the door at the entrance into the police

23 station there was Lugar standing there together with a number of these

24 members of the police -- special police units. And I was also being

25 escorted by these special policemen. I said that one of these three men

Page 1696

1 was the man with the red beret on his head.

2 While we were crossing the street, Lugar walked up to us because

3 he saw that we were going in that direction. So we met halfway, in the

4 middle of the street. He kicked me then, kicked me in the chest, and he

5 said, "Where are you, Bre, Inspector?" He was probably referring to my

6 work in the crime prevention police before the war.

7 Then this member of the special unit, the one with the red beret

8 on his head, said, "Don't beat the man in the street, Bre." Then he

9 withdrew. And it was my conclusion that this man with the red beret was

10 the person who really carried authority in that unit, because I already

11 said that after he issued this order, Lugar gave up on beating me, and

12 apparently he had intended to beat me.

13 Q. Thank you. Now, let's transfer to the actual interrogation

14 itself. Was that accompanied by violence?

15 A. In the office, this Srecko Radovanovic hit me in the head.

16 However, this man with the red beret also cautioned him not to do that.

17 The interview was carried out by this man with the red beret on his head

18 anyway.

19 Q. That was the theme, if any, to the interview? The general line of

20 inquiry, if any?

21 A. This interview did not have any special outline. The questions

22 had nothing to do with one another. For example, I remember that one of

23 the questions was that I should tell him who put the Croat flag on the

24 building of the old hotel in Bosanski Samac - otherwise, before the war,

25 that's where the offices of the political parties were - and other

Page 1697

1 questions of a similar nature.

2 Q. Now, yesterday you mentioned in your evidence two events, the

3 murder of a man called Dikan and transfer to Brcko. When did those two

4 events occur in relation to each other? The same day, separated by days,

5 separated by hours? Can you please tell the Chamber.

6 A. These two events occurred on the same day. The murder, as far as

7 I can remember, was around 1800 hours on the 26th of April. As for this

8 transfer to the JNA barracks in -- transfer to the JNA barracks in Brcko,

9 that took place at midnight the same night.

10 Q. Thank you. Please deal with the murder. Can you describe to the

11 Chamber the sequence of events as you saw it?

12 A. Sometime around 1800 hours on that day, we first heard a gunshot

13 in the room. This bullet went through the door of the room that we were

14 in and stuck into the wall. It was perhaps about a metre and a half above

15 the ground. Then the door was unlocked, and Lugar walked into the room.

16 I remember that he wore a white tracksuit. Under his arm, he had a pistol

17 in a holster, and he was holding a wooden stick in his hand.

18 As soon as he entered the room, he used this stick to beat the

19 prisoners who were sitting on his right-hand side; that is to say, along

20 the right wall, viewed from the entrance door. Anto Brandic, the man we

21 referred to, was somewhere around there too. He was practically hitting

22 these prisoners on the head with this stick. He hit three or four of

23 them, and then he went back to this Brandic. In the meantime, he had got

24 up, because we had all been sitting. Again, he hit him somewhere around

25 the back of his head with this stick, and this man fell due to this blow,

Page 1698

1 and it was obvious that he was in a coma. Lugar then said to the

2 prisoners who were there around him that he should -- that they should

3 take this man out, and he literally said, "Take this crap out." And they

4 carried him out, and the man was still alive. So his feet were still in

5 the room and the rest of his body had already gone through the door, and

6 then two gunshots were heard. Lugar actually fired two shots into that

7 man's head using his pistol. After a while, the body was driven out of

8 the yard of the Territorial Defence building in a vehicle.

9 Q. Who was this Dikan and what was his ethnic background? What sort

10 of man was he?

11 A. He was a Croat from the village of Donji Hasici.

12 Q. Thank you. In that week that you were in Brcko experiencing these

13 things that took place -- sorry, in the week that you were in Bosanski

14 Samac in the TO experiencing these things that took place, can you comment

15 on the audibility of any screams or utterances of prisoners?

16 A. It's not only that they were audible. They were actually heard.

17 The screams and moans were so painful, of these people who were being

18 beaten in the yard; that is, that this could most probably be heard

19 beyond, throughout that part of town.

20 Q. Can you comment on the frequency with which these plainly audible

21 screams could be heard in that week? The frequency of it.

22 A. Every day.

23 Q. Whilst you were actually in the TO building locked up in your room

24 along with the other prisoners, were any screams or yelling -- was it

25 audible from the SUP? In other words, could you hear screams and yells

Page 1699

1 coming from the SUP building across the road?

2 A. While I was in this storage room of the Territorial Defence, I did

3 not hear any such screams from the SUP building.

4 Q. Now, you also have described the transfer to Brcko as occurring at

5 12.00, or around midnight, on the same day that Dikan was murdered. How

6 did you first become aware of the transfer?

7 A. That evening, around 11.30 or 12.00, as I already said - I can't

8 say exactly what time it was - we heard trucks entering the yard of the

9 Territorial Defence building. After a while, the door opened on this

10 storage room and the room was -- and a large number of JNA military

11 policemen entered the room. When I say that they are military policemen,

12 I say that because I know it because military policemen used to wear white

13 belts on their uniforms. After that, it was said that the persons whose

14 names are read out should board the truck, and then they started reading

15 this list. I think it was Mihajlo Topolovac who was reading the list,

16 actually.

17 Q. How many prisoners were transferred to Brcko?

18 A. As far as I can remember, it was 47.

19 Q. Did any of the prisoners who had been incarcerated with you at the

20 TO remain in Bosanski Samac?

21 A. After we left, four prisoners remained in that storage room.

22 Q. Who were they? Can you recall their names?

23 A. I do recall. Among them was Luka Gregurevic, the policeman who

24 was on duty the night when the attack was launched against the police

25 station in Bosanski Samac. There was Anto Orsolic. Then there was Ilija

Page 1700

1 Matic. The three of them are Croats. And Izet Izetbegovic was there too;

2 he's a Bosniak.

3 Q. During the process of being taken out of the TO, loaded into the

4 trucks and taken away, did you see any of the defendants? Were they

5 present?

6 A. No, no one.

7 Q. Turn your attention now to your arrival at Brcko, please. Where

8 were you taken in Brcko?

9 A. When I arrived at the JNA barracks in Brcko, after getting out of

10 this truck, we were taken to a hall in a particular facility. Later on,

11 we realised that this facility was actually the military prison within the

12 barracks. The military policemen lined us up against a wall with our

13 hands above our heads. This is typical when police frisk people. Also

14 our leg -- we were supposed to stand with our legs apart, and then they

15 searched our pockets. They cut the shoelaces on our shoes; of course on

16 those people's shoes who had laces. After that, they tied our hands on

17 the back with rope, and then they assigned us to different prison cells

18 that were within this facility.

19 Q. Where were you assigned, and if you were assigned with anyone,

20 with whom were you assigned?

21 A. I was staying together with Mr. Sulejman Tihic and [redacted] in

22 the first room that is in that hall. The room that we were staying in

23 then was not a prison cell. I think it was an office in that building.

24 Q. Can you tell the Chamber how long you remained, what period of

25 time you remained in Brcko in all?

Page 1701

1 A. We came on the 26th of April, and we stayed until the 2nd of May,

2 1992.

3 Q. Did you remain in the particular room, in the office, the room

4 that you thought was an office, the following day?

5 A. Yes. We stayed in that office that day until the afternoon, but

6 in the morning the military policemen untied our hands because they had

7 been tied all night.

8 During that night, as far as I can remember, some kind of a male

9 nurse came, a soldier, because I had pretty bad injuries on my head, and

10 [redacted]. And this male

11 nurse dressed our wounds somehow, cleaned them, bandaged them, things like

12 that.

13 Q. Were you visited by anyone?

14 A. On that day - I think it could have been around 12.00. I can't

15 remember exactly now - Mr. Simo Zaric came into this room where the three

16 of us were, then also Captain Milan Petrovic, the security officer in

17 these JNA barracks. And a third person came. He was also wearing a

18 military uniform, and I think that he was warden of that military prison.

19 Q. Before we get on to the visit itself, at the point of time that

20 you were visited, can you please describe your condition? You started to

21 do that already by describing how the nurse cleaned you and bandaged you,

22 but I'd like you to finish that description so the Chamber gets an idea of

23 what Mr. Simo Zaric would have seen.

24 A. As for the visible wounds that could be seen by a person who

25 walked in, a person could have seen the injuries on my head, on my face.

Page 1702

1 There was a cut above my eye, on my temple, and I think it was quite

2 visible on the left eye, although I think that the nurse had put some kind

3 of a bandage or something on it. I can't remember exactly anymore. But

4 that was something that could be perceived by anyone.

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 Q. Thank you. Now, tell us what Mr. Simo Zaric had to say, if

15 anything.

16 A. Simo Zaric, when he came in together with these other two persons

17 I mentioned, into the room where we were, that is, he said, "A new

18 Yugoslavia has been created." I did not quite understand what that meant

19 at that moment. First of all, throughout that period, from the moment of

20 our arrest and also after that, we were in total isolation as far as any

21 kind of information was concerned. We practically had no information as

22 to what was going on outside, not even in our immediate environment, let

23 alone Bosnia-Herzegovina or the territory of the former Yugoslavia.

24 After they came, I asked Mr. Zaric what our status was in this

25 entire context, and I was referring to us who were imprisoned. He said to

Page 1703

1 me that a number of us who were detained there had the status of political

2 prisoners.

3 Q. I'll just ask you to pause there. Was it your understanding that

4 his reference to the stated -- to your status as political prisoners

5 applied to you three in that office, or was it a general -- of general

6 application to all of the prisoners who had been transferred to Brcko, or

7 you don't know?

8 A. No, I know. He named the names of the persons who were detained

9 there and to whom he referred as political prisoners. I remember those

10 names very well.

11 Q. Who were they?

12 A. He mentioned my name, the name of Sulejman Tihic, [redacted]

13 [redacted], the name of Mr. Franjo Barukcic, the name of Mr. Sead

14 Mujkanovic, and the sixth person's name was Anto Simovic.

15 Q. What ethnic background are those people?

16 A. These were persons of Croatian and Bosniak ethnicity. Mr. Simovic

17 and Barukcic [redacted] and myself, we were Croats, and the other two

18 gentlemen, Tihic and Mujkanovic, were ethnic Bosniaks.

19 Q. You were telling us about the conversation and how it went. I'd

20 like to you please continue. You'd got to the point where he told you

21 that a number of you were detained and that you had status of political

22 prisoners. Please continue.

23 A. I cannot recall further details of this conversation, but it did

24 not take long, this conversation. However, in all of this, something else

25 sort of stuck in my mind which spoke volumes to me, and what I'm referring

Page 1704

1 to is the way Mr. Zaric looked at the time. Mr. Zaric was wearing a

2 camouflage military uniform, and on his left shoulder he had a white

3 ribbon, and I immediately associated that with the night of the attack on

4 Bosanski Samac; that is, the soldiers, the Serbian soldiers, that I had

5 observed that night and the conversation that I had with Mr. Zaric during

6 that night.

7 Q. Thank you. Was any explanation given to you as to what sort of

8 political crime or misdemeanour or wrong you had committed?

9 A. Mr. Zaric provided no explanations, nor did I ask for any. I only

10 remember asking this Captain Petrovic whether there was a chance for the

11 three of us to be transferred into the regular prison cells so that we

12 could join the others. He said that he would see what he could do about

13 that, and two or three hours later indeed we were transferred to one of

14 the cells with other prisoners.

15 Q. Why did you want to be transferred to cells with other prisoners?

16 What was your reason?

17 A. The reason had to do with safety exclusively, because by staying

18 in that room, we were exposed to anyone entering that room and mistreating

19 us, and this is the experience that we had had previously, and one felt

20 much safer being among his own rather than being isolated and in a place

21 to which anyone could have access.

22 Q. Did you see or hear of Mr. Zaric in the days following this

23 particular encounter that you've just described?

24 A. I never saw or heard Mr. Zaric from there on until I came to this

25 courtroom. But from other prisoners, in fact the very next day, we

Page 1705

1 received information that a certain number of these prisoners was being

2 taken to be questioned in some offices within the barracks and that

3 Mr. Zaric was present there. I don't know to what extent that is true,

4 but I'm just telling you what information we had at the time.

5 Q. Thanks. What I'd like you to do is tell the Chamber of your

6 sources of information. How did you get that information? If you can

7 recall from whom you got that information and the circumstances in which

8 you got that information, I'd like you to tell us.

9 A. I cannot recall in what way, but it was from among the prisoners

10 who were there. It was clear that a number of them were being taken to

11 such interviews, and I believe that people talked about who was conducting

12 this interviews, which included Mr. Zaric. It does not mean that he

13 himself alone was conducting them.

14 I also know that that week, a number of prisoners was taken to

15 Bosanski Samac; back there, that is. Among them was Mr. Tihic. And they

16 were taken there in order to be in a television programme that was filmed

17 there. After they returned, Mr. Tihic, who was with me in the cell, told

18 me that while they were taping this programme, Mr. Zaric was also

19 present. Later on, after my release from prison, I saw a video cassette

20 of that interview, and I saw that Mr. Zaric indeed was present there, that

21 he was there during the taping, and this taping took place in the police

22 building in Samac, and I know that in -- in this tape, Mr. Zaric was

23 wearing the same type of uniform in which I had seen him, with the same

24 white ribbon tied on his shoulder.

25 Q. Thank you. Were you mistreated in the time that you were at

Page 1706

1 Brcko?

2 A. We were not physically mistreated the week when we were there, but

3 the military policemen who were guarding these cells towards the end of

4 the week brought a number of new persons from the Brcko area, and they

5 beat them in a fairly drastic way while bringing them in. And after they

6 were beaten, these men were then placed in the cells where we were, and I

7 believe that a total of four persons were brought on that occasion, two

8 Bosniaks and two Croats.

9 Q. Were you eventually transferred from Brcko?

10 A. As far as I can recall, the war in Brcko started on the 1st of

11 May, because that morning around 3.00 a.m., the whole complex of the

12 military prison was shaken by a very strong implosion. I know that some

13 plaster fell from the ceiling, and I heard that the bridge across River

14 Sava at Brcko and the village of Gunja on the Croatian side was destroyed,

15 and this was followed by the sounds of gunfire.

16 I believe that the start of war in Brcko was the reason why we

17 were transferred from that prison to the JNA barracks in Bijeljina.

18 Bijeljina is, I believe, some 30 kilometres due east from Brcko. All of

19 us who were there, who were detained there, were transferred on the 2nd of

20 May. Again, I believe it was around 1700 or 1800 hours.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours would just bear with me for one

22 moment, please.

23 [Prosecution counsel confer]

24 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the witness be shown Exhibit P12, which is a

25 small map depicting the north-west of Bosnia municipalities and the

Page 1707

1 significant towns, and if it can be placed on the ELMO. I have a clean

2 copy here. I think the previous one may have been --

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Normally, if the exhibit has already been produced

4 and you require it to be shown to the witness, it is the registry

5 assistant who gets a copy if available in court and should be available in

6 court to show the witness or to put on the ELMO.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

8 Q. Just quickly point out the names of the towns that you've

9 mentioned, Brcko and also Bijeljina, please.

10 A. Brcko is here and Bijeljina is there.

11 Q. Okay. Approximately how long would it take to drive from Bosanski

12 Samac to Brcko?

13 JUDGE MUMBA: At what speed?


15 Q. At lawful speed. At about 60 kilometres an hour.

16 A. I said that I believed that the distance between Brcko and

17 Bijeljina is 30 to 35 kilometres. So I would say 30 to 35 minutes, again

18 depending on the speed. We were transferred in a bus, and the escort

19 consisted of two military vehicles which had anti-aircraft machine-guns

20 mounted on them, and also there was a number of military police escort in

21 the bus.

22 Q. Thank you. And just give the Chamber an idea of the towns of

23 Brcko and Bijeljina. Are they smallish provincial towns or large cities?

24 Can you comment?

25 A. For our standards, these are towns of medium size. I don't know

Page 1708

1 what size population these towns were, Brcko and Bijeljina, but I'd say

2 40.000 to 50.000 before the war, but significantly larger than Bosanski

3 Samac.

4 Q. Thank you. You said that you were transferred to Bijeljina. Did

5 all of the prisoners who had left from Bosanski Samac to be transferred to

6 Brcko go from Brcko to Bijeljina?

7 A. As far as I can recall, everyone was transferred, including the

8 four new arrivals from Brcko, the men who were detained together with us

9 there.

10 Q. What time did you arrive at Bijeljina?

11 A. I think it could have been around 1900 hours, somewhere around

12 there.

13 Q. Did anything happen upon your arrival at Bijeljina?

14 A. After our arrival on the compound of the JNA barracks and after we

15 got off the bus, we were lined up on the paved area where the military had

16 their parades, and there were three or four tanks there with crews in

17 them. And after that, we were taken, all the prisoners, to one of the

18 rooms in this -- within these barracks. And while we were moving there,

19 one of the military personnel told one of these men, a Bosniak, and they

20 sent him in a different direction, in a completely different direction

21 from where the rest of us were going.

22 Q. One of the men, the Bosniak, was he one of the group that had come

23 with you from Bosanski Samac or was he one of the four who had been added

24 to your group whilst in Brcko?

25 A. He was one of the four who were added to the group in Brcko.

Page 1709

1 Q. Thank you. Please continue.

2 A. After he covered maybe 200 metres or something -- they had

3 training -- they had a training range adjacent there. And after he

4 crossed about 200 metres, fire was opened from one of the tanks and he was

5 killed.

6 After that, we were taken to a small room where we stayed for a

7 little while, and then they took us to the gym which was again part of the

8 complex.

9 Q. How long were you in Bijeljina, and were you mistreated there?

10 A. I spent that night in Bijeljina and the next day, let's say until

11 about 1300 or 1400 hours. I cannot recall the exact time. That was the

12 night of the Saturday to Sunday; that is, between the 2nd and 3rd of May.

13 That same night, in this gymnasium where we were, we were in two

14 lines facing the wall. There was some intense physical abuse by the JNA

15 soldiers on our group, and this went on until about midnight and then it

16 stopped, because these teams of military police took turns. There were

17 shifts. And apparently the ones who came in later were more normal, so

18 they stopped this physical abuse.

19 Q. Now, the next day at 1300 or 1400 hours, what took place?

20 A. On Sunday, sometime around 1300 hours, lunch was brought into this

21 gymnasium. After this lunch, which may have taken 10 to 15 minutes, a

22 group of JNA officers entered the room, five or six of them perhaps, and a

23 sizeable group of military police. Then one of the JNA officers addressed

24 the prisoners and said that the ones whose names he read out should cross

25 over to the other side of the room, and he read out the names of six

Page 1710

1 persons, and my name was one of those. And then I realised that these

2 were the persons that Mr. Zaric had identified as political prisoners. We

3 crossed over to the other side of the room, and the military policemen

4 lined us up. They told us to put our hands behind our heads, and they led

5 us out of the room.

6 Q. Were you eventually transported somewhere?

7 A. After that, they took us to a military helicopter, which had

8 landed on one of the sports fields within the compound. And when we

9 entered the helicopters, we found three other persons from Bosanski Samac

10 there. We were tied -- we were handcuffed to each other, and shortly

11 thereafter the helicopter took off.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Before we go on, Mr. di Fazio, with after getting

13 into the helicopter, can we go back to the stadium where the witness was

14 talking about intense physical abuse to which the prisoners were exposed?

15 That does not mean anything.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: If we are discussing inhumane treatment, like I've

18 said before, please.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, I appreciate that, if Your Honour pleases.

20 Q. You heard Her Honour's question. Can you tell us what happened in

21 the period of time up to the change of shift in Bijeljina, during the

22 period of time that you had the intense physical mistreatment.

23 A. I said that after we were brought to this gymnasium, this hall, we

24 were lined up in two lines. The first one was facing the wall but at

25 about two metres from the wall, and we were spaced about one metre or so

Page 1711

1 from each other. And then behind this first row, there -- set back

2 another two metres, there was a second line of prisoners arranged in a

3 similar way. And these JNA soldiers would approach us from behind. In

4 their hands they held wooden sticks which are used for certain exercises

5 in these gymnasiums, and they used these sticks to beat the prisoners;

6 also, the military boots, especially in the area of kidney, because we

7 were sitting down. And as I said, this went on until after midnight. I

8 don't know how many hours this was. I was not -- I didn't have a watch,

9 and I was not in a position to keep the time, but I think it went on for

10 about four or five hours.

11 Q. Were you personally beaten during this episode?

12 A. I personally was not beaten. A military policeman approached me

13 and ordered me up, because before this beating - and I forgot to say

14 that - they went from one prisoner to the other and asked the -- each

15 prisoner their name, where they came from, what they do before the war,

16 things like that, and this military policeman that approached me told me

17 to get up, and he led me out of this room to the shower areas. He offered

18 me a cigarette and said that he had heard, while we were all giving our

19 data, that I had worked with the police, that his brother worked in

20 Derventa as a police -- as a crime technician, and that he would basically

21 protect me from beatings from these savages, as he described them. I'm

22 very grateful to this man. I don't know his name, but this is what

23 happened.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: If I may ask the witness, you say that you yourself

25 were not beaten but you watched the other prisoners being beaten by all

Page 1712

1 these JNA prisoners. How did you feel?

2 A. In such moments, a person -- one feels nauseous, and in general,

3 what kills you the most is the uncertainty, the uncertainty of your own

4 fate. It's a mental state which perhaps is not easy to describe to those

5 who have not gone through such an experience but people who have know this

6 quite well.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: You can proceed.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

9 Q. I'm not clear from your answer whether you actually saw the

10 beatings that you have described before being taken away by this kindly

11 guard. Did you actually lay eyes upon prisoners being beaten? Did you

12 have an opportunity to do that?

13 A. I saw it while I was there, while I was sitting down, from the

14 vantage point where I was, and I could see it from the shower room, which

15 is adjoining the room, and you could hear it too because these were --

16 these were very powerful blows. This was not -- these were not strokes

17 and caresses.

18 Q. Thank you. Now, you were describing the -- your transfer away

19 from Bijeljina. Can you please go back to that. You described those who

20 were selected and a number of people who were on board the helicopter.

21 What I would like to know is this: Were the people who were described by

22 Simo Zaric as political prisoners on board?

23 A. The six of us were the group that Mr. Simo Zaric had defined as

24 political prisoners, but in addition to the six of us, we found three

25 additional persons from Bosanski Samac who were already there. So in

Page 1713

1 total, there were nine of us.

2 Q. Do you know the names of the three additional Bosanski Samac

3 people?

4 A. I do. One of the three was Mr. Izet Izetbegovic, who had remained

5 in Bosanski Samac when we were taken to Brcko. The second person was

6 Dr. Miroslav Kedacic. He was a physician in Bosanski Samac. And there

7 was also Mr. Anto Dragicevic.

8 Q. What else was on the helicopter apart from the people? I'm not

9 just talking about people. What objects were --

10 A. In the middle of this military helicopter was a coffin covered

11 with a Serbian flag. Next to this coffin was a cross on which there was a

12 name, surname, the year of birth, and the year of death of the person that

13 was in the coffin. The cross was facing me, so I was in a position to

14 read what it said on the cross.

15 Q. What did it say?

16 A. It said "Aleksandar Vukovic."

17 Q. Thank you. Would you please look at this document that I'm going

18 to produce to you.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, it's on the list of

20 exhibits as C77. Copies are available for the Court. I have a

21 translation and the original B/C/S version, and I ask that it be given an

22 exhibit number and that the B/C/S number be placed on the ELMO.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number, please.

24 THE REGISTRAR: The document formerly known as C77 shall be marked

25 for the record as Prosecutor's Exhibit P25, and the B/C/S version shall be

Page 1714

1 marked for the record as Prosecutor's Exhibit P25 ter.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: And if Your Honours please, perhaps for the

3 purposes of the transcript and identification this document could be known

4 as the Decision on the Establishment of the Aleksandar Vukovic Vuk

5 Foundation.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I see counsel for the Defence.

7 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, yesterday I made a -- I requested that

8 on the ELMO will be put the B/C/S version because of the defendants.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I thought that was done. Can we have the

10 B/C/S version on the ELMO, please?

11 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: So if the Prosecutor can always be ready with

13 another version of the B/C/S.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: I did request that a B/C/S version be placed on the

15 ELMO, if Your Honour pleases.

16 Q. Now -- thank you. Now, is that the name, obviously -- I'll

17 withdraw that question.

18 Is that the name, "Aleksandar Vukovic Vuk," that you saw on the

19 cross?

20 A. The name and the surname is the same. I think it is the same

21 person.

22 Q. This document is dated the 27th of June, 1992. What was the date

23 that you got onto the helicopter and saw the coffin with the cross next to

24 it?

25 A. The 3rd of May, 1992.

Page 1715

1 Q. Had you ever met Aleksandar Vukovic?

2 A. It is possible that this person was among the members of the Serb

3 special forces while we were at the storage room in Bosanski Samac. I

4 don't know what this person looked like. However, when I got out of

5 prison, I found out that this was a member of the special police.

6 To the best of my knowledge, this young man was from Pljevlja,

7 Montenegro, if the information I received subsequently was correct. Also,

8 to the best of my knowledge, this person got killed during the armed Serb

9 aggression against a number of villages in the municipality of Orasje,

10 which is a neighbouring municipality in relation to Bosanski Samac. This

11 attack started on the 29th of April, 1992.

12 Q. The document on its second -- on the second page appears to be

13 signed. Do you know the signature?

14 A. I can only read what is typewritten underneath. It says "Simic

15 Blagoje." Whether the handwriting is actually Mr. Simic's signature, that

16 I cannot say.

17 It also says that this signature was affixed there in the capacity

18 as president of the Crisis Staff. On the first page of this document, it

19 is quite evident on the letterhead that this is the Crisis Staff of the

20 Serb municipality of Bosanski Samac.

21 Q. There are two stamps near the site of the signature, with some

22 symbolism. What was that? Some symbols, I should say.

23 A. These four symbols are four letters "S" in Cyrillic. This is a

24 symbol which actually means "it is only harmony that saves Serbs."

25 Q. Do you read Cyrillic?

Page 1716

1 A. I did not quite hear you.

2 Q. I'm sorry. Do you read Cyrillic?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you. I've finished with the document.

5 Where were you taken on the helicopter?

6 A. This helicopter took us to the barracks or, rather, the prison

7 within the JNA barracks in Batajnica. Batajnica is a place that is very

8 close to Belgrade. It is in Serbia.

9 Q. What sort of barracks is it? Army, air force, police?

10 A. It is barracks right next to a military airfield in Batajnica. It

11 is an air force barracks.

12 Q. You've described treatment that you received in Bosanski Samac, in

13 Brcko and Bijeljina. I now want to ask you about the manner in which you

14 were treated at Batajnica.

15 A. They treated us the same way they did in the other places, the

16 previous places.

17 Q. I'd like you to try and deal with it in as compartmentalised a

18 form as possible. Let's start, first of all, with beatings. Were there

19 any beatings administered, either to you or to others, other prisoners?

20 A. The first six or seven days, as far as I can remember, there were

21 no beatings. However, other forms of physical and psychological torture

22 were applied. After this first stage, physical beatings and abuse

23 started, in the same way as in Bosanski Samac, Brcko and Bijeljina.

24 Q. You've described other forms of physical and psychological torture

25 in the initial period. What forms did this take?

Page 1717

1 A. I shall single out three such forms for you. For example, the

2 first three days of our stay in that room in prison, we had to stand up

3 from 6.00 a.m. until 10.00 p.m., all day. That is one form of abuse.

4 Another form is the singing of Chetnik songs. The third form is, for

5 example, on the wall in that room a portrait of Draza Mihajlovic was drawn

6 with a magic marker. Draza Mihajlovic was a Chetnik commander from the

7 Second World War. From time to time, we had to kiss that drawing on the

8 wall. We would all have to line up, one by one, and kiss it. I think

9 that what I have said is sufficient.

10 Q. Well, I'd like some more detail, please. First of all, the

11 standing, let's deal with that. Were you lined up when you were told to

12 stand? Were you simply assembled randomly? Was there any form to the --

13 to the positions which you had to adopt when standing?

14 A. There were nine of us in that group, in that room. Nine of us

15 were detained in that room. We were divided into two lines. In one,

16 there were four; in the other one, there were five. And we had to face

17 the wall. We had to stand upright in an upright, military standing

18 position. I think that that is quite clear, isn't it? These first three

19 days, we stood in that position, and only a lunch break was taken around

20 1300 hours, and it took about 15 or 20 minutes, but that was all.

21 Q. Were you permitted to be seated during the lunch break?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What was to prevent you from sitting down? It may seem a trite

24 question, but I need to know.

25 A. In this room where we were standing, we were guarded by the

Page 1718

1 military police. In every shift, there were three military policemen, and

2 the shifts were three hours each. The policemen were inside in that room,

3 and they were mostly sitting on chairs. They were armed. They had

4 automatic rifles. And they had police truncheons, rubber truncheons.

5 Q. Was everyone able to stand throughout the day? Did they succeed

6 in staying on their feet, in other words?

7 A. The first two days, yes. On the third day, Mr. Franjo Barukcic -

8 he is an elderly man. At that time he was 70 years old - he had gangrene

9 on either his left or his right leg; I can't remember now. And since his

10 leg had swollen terribly because of all that standing at attention, he was

11 allowed to sit down because he could no longer stand.

12 Q. Thank you. Were you interrogated at all in the time that you were

13 at Batajnica?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Who conducted that interrogation and under what circumstances?

16 A. Three or four days after we got there, I was picked up by a group

17 of military policemen. They handcuffed me. They put police handcuffs on

18 my hands. And they blindfolded me with a white blindfold. They took me

19 out of that room, and they put me in some kind of vehicle. I think it was

20 a military vehicle, but I couldn't really see because I was blindfolded.

21 Q. Can I just ask you two brief questions? Were you taken away from

22 Batajnica?

23 A. Everything I'm telling you about right now was happening in

24 Batajnica. We found out that we were in Batajnica two or three days later

25 from the military policemen who were guarding us, because we had no idea

Page 1719

1 that we were there. Truth to tell, after our arrival there, I asked the

2 security officer who came to the room where we were detained, where we

3 were, and he said, "You are in JNA barracks." And I said to him, "Well,

4 it's quite clear to me that we are in JNA barracks, but at which

5 locality?" And he said, "I've told you enough."

6 Q. In fact, I was concerned about the episode where you say you were

7 blindfolded, handcuffed. Were you taken away at that point, taken away

8 from Batajnica?

9 A. No. I was taken to one of these military facilities within the

10 compound, within the military compound at Batajnica. It was a very short

11 ride, two or three minutes only.

12 Q. Thank you. Okay. Tell us about this interrogation.

13 A. They brought me into an office, and then they took the blindfold

14 off my eyes. I saw that I was in a typical office. In that office were

15 two persons. Both wore civilian clothes. One of these persons, who later

16 conducted this entire interview with me, was a pretty small and short

17 person. He had a specific accent. He spoke the way people speak in the

18 province of Voyvodina in Serbia.

19 In the corner of that office, there was a hanger, and there was a

20 military uniform on that hanger, an officer's uniform, with the insignia

21 of a major. This uniform was quite small, and on the basis of the stature

22 of this person who talked to me, I inferred - and I don't know how correct

23 this is, but I think it is correct - that he was a major. When the

24 interview started, he introduced himself. He actually said what his name

25 and surname were, but he did not give his rank or anything like that.

Page 1720

1 Q. How long did the interrogation take?

2 A. This interrogation went on the entire day.

3 Q. Were you mistreated?

4 A. No.

5 Q. You described to the Chamber how, during the initial period of

6 your time at Batajnica, there was no beatings but other forms of

7 mistreatment, and you've already given evidence of some of those forms of

8 mistreatment. After the initial period was over, however, were there

9 beatings?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What sort of beatings? Who was beaten?

12 A. I think that the beatings started sometime after the 14th or the

13 15th of May, because another group was brought to this prison then,

14 another group of people. After that, the beatings started, both of that

15 group and of us, the people who were brought before them. The beatings

16 were administered by the policemen who were on duty and also by other

17 military personnel who would come in, especially in the evening hours.

18 They would simply come there to the prison premises.

19 Q. What was the ethnic background --

20 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. di Fazio, I wonder whether the witness could

21 tell us for the record, the person who was conducting the interview with

22 him who was of small stature and there was a military uniform on a hanger

23 in the corner of the room, he introduced himself when the interview

24 started. I wonder whether the witness could tell us what the name of this

25 person was.

Page 1721

1 A. The person's name is Dragan, but I can't remember his last name.

2 He did tell me his last name, but I simply forgot it.


4 Q. When you say "major," are you referring to the JNA army?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 A. I remember another detail. That uniform that was there was an air

8 force uniform. It was light blue in colour.

9 Q. Now, the beatings, can you give us an idea of how they were

10 conducted, whether instruments were used? If so, what instruments?

11 A. On the 12th of May, out of the nine of us out of my group, four

12 persons were singled out, including myself. We were then driven to

13 another JNA barracks in Zemun. That is also very close to Belgrade and to

14 Batajnica.

15 Three days later, we were returned from this military prison in

16 Zemun to this same prison in Batajnica. Four new prisoners were brought

17 with us on that occasion from Zemun to Batajnica.

18 After we came, this group of ours from Bosanski Samac, consisting

19 of nine people, as I said, was transferred to an adjacent prison room. It

20 was adjacent to the first room that we were detained in. And these four

21 new prisoners who were brought in from Zemun together with us were put

22 into the first room. That very same evening, a new group of prisoners

23 from the territory of Bosanski Samac were brought in, and they were also

24 placed into that first room where the four prisoners had already been.

25 All these prisoners in the first room were literally massacred by

Page 1722

1 the military policemen during that first night. They were hitting them

2 with different objects. In addition to these rubber police truncheons, I

3 remember well that they were hitting them with big metal rug beaters made

4 of steel wire. They were also hitting them with big military ladles, if

5 that's the word you use for those big spoons that are used for pouring

6 food out of big pots in the military. It's made out of metal, too, this

7 big spoon, this ladle, and the handle is about a metre long. And they

8 were literally killing these people as they were beating them all over

9 their bodies, on the back, wherever. After that, they used these

10 particular implements very often during these evening beatings.

11 Q. You've described groups of prisoners being added, a group before

12 you went to Zemun, another a group after you arrived from -- back to

13 Batajnica from Zemun. What was the ethnic background of these new

14 prisoners that were being added?

15 A. These new prisoners, as far as I can remember, were all ethnic

16 Croats, except for one person who was an American. He was the only one

17 who was of different ethnicity.

18 JUDGE SINGH: Witness, there's just one clarification that I wish

19 to seek from you. You have mentioned a couple of times or you have used

20 the word "massacred." I want you to think very carefully when you use

21 that word, because the ordinary meaning of that word is quite different.

22 It means an indiscriminate slaughter of people. Do you understand the

23 meaning of the word "slaughter," where people are actually killed?

24 Indiscriminate slaughter of people, where people are actually killed.

25 A. I have understood your question. I have been using this term,

Page 1723

1 yes, because when I say that they beat us or hit us, that is too mild a

2 term. It does not reflect the condition that these prisoners were in

3 after these beatings with various implements and in view of what these men

4 looked like after these beatings. They were actually half dead. That is

5 why I have used this term "massacred." After these sessions, these men

6 were half dead. Because if I were to use any other term, it would be too

7 mild for all of that.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Prosecutor. Can we take a break and

9 continue our proceedings at 1130 hours.

10 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

11 --- On resuming at 11.31 a.m.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, we are proceeding with the

13 examination-in-chief. Judge Singh has a query.

14 JUDGE SINGH: If we just get back to where we left off, we take

15 note of what you say, but the word "massacre" is still quite different.

16 Now, I do understand you when you say that the word "beating" isn't

17 sufficient to describe what you saw or what was done to you.

18 Now, during the recess, I had occasion to look at the

19 English/Serbo-Croat dictionary, 1973, which was printed in Belgrade,

20 Vojni-Recnik. Now, it has a phrase perhaps for such a beating. In

21 English, the translation is "to take a hard beating." Now, I don't want

22 to do violence to the language by pronouncing the Serbo-Croat, but I will

23 give you the written text to have a look at it, and perhaps you can then

24 tell us: Is this the right phrase that you want to use? If not, please

25 tell us also.

Page 1724

1 Please give a copy to the Defence counsel as well. Under the word

2 "beating," Mr. Pantelic, would you like to pronounce the phrase?

3 JUDGE MUMBA: He hasn't got his earphones on.

4 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. "Beating" is "udaranje" or

5 "kucanje." "Take a hard beating," "podvrgnuti se snaznim udarima;

6 podnositi snazne udare."

7 JUDGE SINGH: Thank you.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: What is the comment of the witness? Is it

9 acceptable? Is that description as stated in the dictionary acceptable to

10 him, to the witness?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that what I have in front

12 of me does not reflect the reality of either the beating itself or the

13 consequences of such beatings. That means that conceptually it does not

14 reflect the appearance of a victim after such a beating.

15 JUDGE SINGH: All right. Thank you, then.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, the Prosecution can continue.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, if Your Honours please.

18 Q. Just on this topic of description of what you saw, I understand

19 your position that you don't use the word "massacre" in a literal form

20 because you're not suggesting that these people were -- had their lives

21 taken in a group and at the one time, which is, I think, a fairly accepted

22 understanding of "massacre." And I understand that your position is that

23 the word "beating" utterly fails to describe the true nature of what you

24 saw and observed. Is it your position that what you saw and observed

25 might be described as a beating, in that it has all the elements of our

Page 1725

1 normal understanding of the word "beating," but in addition, is defined

2 qualitatively by the extremity of the actions that -- and the physical

3 application of force that you saw applied?

4 A. In a certain way, yes.

5 Q. Now --

6 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours just bear with me for one

7 moment.

8 [Prosecution counsel confer]


10 Q. We were talking earlier --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.


13 Q. We were talking earlier of events, beatings that you saw after

14 you'd been to Zemun, but you haven't yet told the Chamber of what happened

15 in Zemun. I'd like you now to explain to the Chamber why you were taken

16 there, what happened there, and the period of time that you actually spent

17 in Zemun.

18 A. During that whole period of time, we were never given an

19 explanation why we were taken from Batajnica to Zemun. In respect of my

20 stay in prison during that period, I made my own conclusions, which may

21 not be true, but I could see no other reason why we were there. That is,

22 on the 12th of May, in Batajnica, in the prison room where we were, a

23 group of officers came in along with some military police, and they

24 brought in four camouflage uniforms such as the JNA had. They told me,

25 Miroslav Kadacic, Sead Mujkanovic, and [redacted] to put on these

Page 1726












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and the English transcripts.













Page 1727

1 camouflage uniforms, and they had also brought some military boots,

2 because we were all wearing our civilian clothes which we were wearing

3 when we were arrested. We did as we were told.

4 I think that the reason why the four of us were selected, we were

5 younger in age than the rest. I believe that a military uniform would not

6 really be -- have been appropriate for Franjo Barukcic, who was about 70

7 at the time.

8 After we had put on these camouflage uniforms without any insignia

9 on them, the military policemen handcuffed us, put blindfolds over our

10 eyes, and we were then placed on a military truck and taken to Zemun.

11 When I arrived in Zemun, immediately upon arrival, we learned --

12 after we were brought into these barracks, and it was a military police

13 barracks, a JNA officer entered. He was a captain. He also introduced

14 himself by first and last name, and he told us that we were in the JNA

15 military police barracks in Zemun.

16 In the room to which we were brought, which actually was used as a

17 classroom in the JNA barracks, there were an additional four persons who

18 we also understood to be detainees. These persons were sitting on kind of

19 a cot, on cots consisting of three blocks, and they were about a metre

20 apart from each other. Three persons were wearing uniforms and one

21 civilian clothes. We were also made to sit in similar positions. And

22 because the door to the room was open, we could see a large number of

23 military police passing this room back and forth. Some of them entered,

24 observed us, and so on. We spent the night in this room.

25 Q. I'll ask you to pause there. Throughout this time, you kept on

Page 1728

1 wearing your camouflage uniform?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Up until the point of -- up until the night arrived, I should say,

4 was there any physical mistreatment of you?

5 A. Not during that afternoon. I remember that an officer whose rank

6 was lieutenant colonel entered the room and asked us at which front we had

7 been taken prisoner. We told him that we were at no front, and he said,

8 "How come?" because we were wearing these camouflage uniforms. We told

9 him that these -- we were made to put on these uniforms in Batajnica

10 before coming here. He said that he would verify that, and if that were

11 not correct, that he personally would come to execute us.

12 This abuse took place at night in that room by the military

13 policemen who I guess were on duty there that night. They used no

14 instruments while beating us but, rather, used their fists and boots,

15 especially one who used particular moves which led me to believe that he

16 had trained -- he was trained in martial arts.

17 Among the four persons whom we found in the room, the one who was

18 singled out for beating especially was the man in civilian clothes, and

19 later on I learned that this person's name was Alija Selimagic. He was an

20 ethnic Bosniak and came from the area of Bosanski Brod. This person was

21 in a fairly bad physical and mental condition, from which I concluded that

22 he must have been beaten even before we arrived. He looked completely

23 lost, and from what he was saying, in other words, from how he was

24 answering questions of the military policemen, it was clear to me that he

25 was mentally incoherent, because his answers made no sense and were

Page 1729

1 incoherent.

2 The next day - this was now on the 13th of May - all of us who

3 were in that room were moved to the prison room in the compound, which is

4 a small-size room. From the outside, the military police guarded the

5 room. During the night, several members of special police or some elite

6 unit from Nis, some parachute unit that is part of JNA - and Nis, by the

7 way, is a city in southern Serbia - they beat most of us, again without

8 using any instruments, and then again they singled out this Selimagic for

9 beating.

10 Q. What did they use if they didn't use their instruments -- any

11 instruments?

12 A. I don't remember them using anything. I think they just punched

13 and kicked.

14 The next day - and I believe now this was 15th of May - the door

15 to this prison room was opened and the military policeman called out this

16 American who was there, which he did, and then two men in civilian clothes

17 appeared at the door. They talked to this American in English for about

18 10 or 15 minutes.

19 After he went back into the cell, the other person who was wearing

20 a Croatian army uniform - his name was Zdravko Filipovic - talked to this

21 American, because one of them could speak a little English and the other

22 one could speak a little Croatian, so they could somehow communicate. So

23 Filipovic asked this American, whose name was Peri Colton, what the two

24 men who were there a moment before had talked about, and he said that they

25 had told him that the U.S. embassy in Belgrade was informed about his

Page 1730

1 detention and that he would be released within seven days. He was also

2 told that the military policeman would come to get him in a few minutes so

3 that he could give an interview to the Belgrade TV. At that point,

4 Filipovic told him that in this interview that he was to give to the TV

5 journalists that he should mention that we were kept and beaten in this

6 prison, and he said that he would do that. Indeed, several minutes later,

7 they came to get him. And he then came back in an hour, hour and a half,

8 after he had given this interview, and he said that he had told the

9 journalists that we are being physically mistreated in prison. Whether he

10 said that or not, I don't know.

11 Q. Thank you. Did you eventually return to Batajnica?

12 A. Shortly thereafter, that is, within half an hour to an hour, again

13 a larger group of military policemen and JNA officers came in. Again they

14 handcuffed us, blindfolded us, and then immediately took us back to

15 Batajnica.

16 Q. Were you ever provided with any reason as to why you had to wear

17 these camouflage uniforms on this trip to Zemun?

18 A. We never received an explanation, but I concluded, based on

19 everything, that we too had been brought there for the purpose of such

20 interviews, apparently to convince the public that these were some kind of

21 prisoners who were captured at the front, and my guess is that this is why

22 they had us put on these uniforms. And I think that it was probable that

23 this American did mention in his interview that we were beaten there,

24 which is why they gave up on going through with this plan. But this is my

25 assumption.

Page 1731

1 Q. Thank you. Now, can you give us any idea of the date that you

2 were returned from Zemun to Batajnica, if you can an approximate time?

3 A. Yes. I think that this was on the 15th of May, sometime in the

4 afternoon.

5 Q. Thank you. And can you tell us how long you remained at

6 Batajnica?

7 A. We stayed three days, the 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th -- actually, four

8 days.

9 Q. And then?

10 A. Then we were taken back to Batajnica, to the same prison from

11 which we were taken.

12 Q. I see. So you were at -- right. So you were at Zemun from the

13 12th, 13th, 14th and 15th?

14 A. That's how it should be.

15 Q. Okay. Now, how long did you remain at Batajnica after you had

16 returned from Zemun?

17 A. We were -- in fact, I stayed in Batajnica until the 26th or 27th

18 of May. I cannot remember exactly whether it was the 26th or the 27th.

19 Q. Thank you. I just want to now concentrate on that period of 11

20 days or so from the time that you were returned to Batajnica from Zemun.

21 During that period of time, were you physically beaten or mistreated, or

22 did you see others being physically beaten or mistreated?

23 A. During that period to which you referred, that is, between the

24 15th and the 26th of May, that was the period during which, throughout my

25 stay in Batajnica, we were abused the most physically.

Page 1732

1 Q. Was there any pattern to the physical abuse that you've just

2 mentioned?

3 A. For instance, it happened, and as I said, for the most part --

4 actually, not for the most part. This abuse was committed exclusively at

5 night. It would start sometime in -- at around 7.00 until midnight or

6 1.00 or 2.00 a.m., during that interval.

7 For instance, one situation was that they would line the nine of

8 us against the wall with hands against the wall, and then the police with

9 their police batons would just hit us from top to bottom. That is, when

10 you raise your hands, you expose your rib cage, and so the pain during

11 this beating increases.

12 Another way was to bring us out of -- from the room where we were

13 to the room in front, one by one, and in a similar way we would be beaten

14 individually. During one of such beatings, I had some of my ribs

15 fractured by a military policeman who was an ethnic Montenegrin. And the

16 reason given by him was that he did not like my face. A third kind would

17 be, for instance, for two prisoners to be taken out together and made to

18 hit each other. And Sead Mujkanovic, [redacted], and I were again

19 targeted for that kind of abuse because we had had experience in police

20 work. So we were especially attractive for this kind of treatment. So

21 these were some of the ways in which we were mistreated.

22 Q. Just a couple more details, please. You say that one of the forms

23 of beating was lining up against the wall with your hands against the

24 wall, and you were beaten in this position. Were any instruments used

25 when you were being beaten in this position?

Page 1733

1 A. On me they used the rubber police truncheons or batons.

2 Q. Another form of beating -- well, another form of humiliation, for

3 want of a better word, that you were subjected to was being forced to

4 fight co-prisoners. How much force did you use when engaging in that

5 behaviour?

6 A. Well, look, in that situation, the best thing is if that other

7 person, that partner of yours, so to speak, hits you so hard in the first

8 place that you fall on the floor. Because if the blow is not severe

9 enough, then the military policemen start beating the person who did not

10 administer too hard a blow.

11 Perhaps the most painful thing in this kind of torture was the

12 situation when we were so beaten up after an hour or two and then we would

13 were forced to do push-ups on the floor. Because while you're actually

14 beaten, you don't even feel the pain because of everything that is going

15 on, but then this is extremely painful. You could have seen such abuse

16 only in movies depicting medieval times.

17 Q. I want you to comment now on the frequency of this sort of

18 mistreatment in the period of time from your return from Zemun to the time

19 that you left Batajnica.

20 A. During this period of time, such abuse took place every night. I

21 can't say exactly, but, yes, every night, unless in one of these

22 three-hour shifts of guards who were guarding the prisoners there wasn't

23 one of the more reasonable military policemen, and there were such people

24 among them. So if there was that kind of shift in the evening hours when

25 this usually happened, then on that particular evening, it would not

Page 1734

1 happen.

2 Q. I now want to ask you some questions about your transfer from

3 Batajnica. Can you tell us of the date and the circumstances under which

4 you were transferred or moved from Batajnica?

5 A. I said that this happened either on the 26th or on the 27th of

6 May. I really cannot recall the exact date.

7 On that day, the prison warden came into that room. He was a

8 warrant officer by rank. We actually had the impression that he was the

9 organiser of all this abuse that was carried out by the military policemen

10 in that prison. With him came three persons in uniform from the territory

11 of the municipality of Bosanski Samac. This delegation was headed by

12 Fadil Topcagic. We have already mentioned him.

13 Then the prison warden said to me and to a few other prisoners

14 that we should go and take a shave, because we had not shaven throughout

15 the period that we were detained there. They did take us for a bath

16 twice, though. So we did that. And after that, Fadil Topcagic said that

17 he had come to fetch us and that he would take us to Bosanski Samac. He

18 put handcuffs on our hands. They also blindfolded us, and they put us

19 into a motor vehicle, a kombi van, and we were put on the floor of that

20 particular vehicle. Handcuffed and blindfolded in this manner, we were

21 brought to Bosanski Samac from Batajnica. The other prisoners remained in

22 Batajnica then.

23 Q. Thank you. What was Fadil Topcagic wearing? Can you recall?

24 A. He was wearing a camouflage uniform. He didn't have any cap on

25 his head; I remember that.

Page 1735

1 Q. Who were the prisoners who went or, rather, accompanied you to

2 Bosanski Samac?

3 A. [redacted]

4 Franjo Barukcic and Mato Perkovic. The last person mentioned is from the

5 territory of the municipality of Modrica, which is a municipality that

6 borders the municipality of Bosanski Samac.

7 Q. Were you imprisoned on your return to Bosanski Samac?

8 A. Upon arrival in Bosanski Samac, the four of us were locked up in a

9 police garage, one of the garages that is in the yard of the police

10 station building in Bosanski Samac.

11 Q. Across the road from the SUP -- from the TO.

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours just bear with me. I just want

14 to refer to some photographs.

15 [Prosecution counsel confer]

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the photographs be shown to the witness? They

17 should be in a bundle at this stage.

18 Would Your Honours just bear with me for one moment.

19 [Prosecution counsel confer]

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

21 Q. Would you please look at photographs number F1.

22 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I'm sorry. Yesterday we made an

23 objection about these photographs which had the sticker in your left

24 corner, upper-left corner, which explains what it is. So -- and we

25 understood that the Prosecutor has made a commitment that we will have the

Page 1736

1 normal photographs without the specification what is on the photograph

2 shown to the witnesses.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Let me find out.

4 The photograph the usher has put on the ELMO is the one from the

5 registry assistant, isn't it? Is it marked? Can the usher bring the

6 photograph to the registry the re assistant to see what markings are

7 there.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The copies which the Bench has are blank,

10 actually. It seems to the Trial Chamber that when the photograph was

11 taken and then the tag on top was placed on the photograph and then it was

12 taken together with the photograph again to produce a photograph which

13 appears already marked.

14 So the Trial Chamber has got photographs which are not marked. I

15 was wondering whether the Prosecution has a similar bundle without

16 markings.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, we do have a similar bundle.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Those are the photographs which should be shown to

19 the witness. The ones with the registry assistant are okay with the

20 labels on for the record, but the ones you want to discuss with the

21 witness, please make sure that they are not marked.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. The photographs that I've got, if Your

23 Honour pleases --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone please.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: The photographs I've got, if Your Honour pleases,

Page 1737

1 and the ones that I want to refer to now, are in order and easy to use,

2 and in the same order as the exhibit. At the top, on the left-hand side,

3 there are dates and various numbers and the words "Bosanski Samac." In

4 addition, there is some whiting out at the top of the photographs, which I

5 am reasonably confident whites out a description of what the photograph

6 depicts, so the witness won't be able to see what it says. It's in

7 English, in any event. And furthermore, it shouldn't be visible on the

8 ELMO. So this is what I propose to produce to him.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Could we sort this one out? What numbers of those

10 photographs are you intending to show the witness.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: 42 through to 56. 42 through to 56. I've got

12 copies here.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Just hold on. Because you see, the Trial Chamber --

14 the Judges have got copies of photographs with only numbers on them,

15 nothing else.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: So these are the sort of photographs that should be

18 shown to the witness, with nothing, no other writing, apart from numbers

19 and the dates which were taken as the camera was clicking.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. In that case, I'm not in a position to do

21 that at the moment because the copies --

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can the usher get one of our batches? So are

23 you -- anyway, the order in which you describe them is up to the

24 Prosecutor.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

Page 1738

1 JUDGE MUMBA: So the usher will simply be putting them on the

2 ELMO, and then the witness can as well see on the screen.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. Now, could you please place photograph

4 number F42 on the screen? F42.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: If we can have the full name, it's Exhibit P14,

6 F42.


8 Q. Do you recognise that building, Mr. Lukac?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What building is that, the one in white -- the white building, I

11 should say, with the grey roof?

12 A. This building here is one of the buildings of the Territorial

13 Defence within the compound that was the Territorial Defence compound. In

14 this building were --

15 Q. Thank you. Just looking beyond the building, you can see another

16 building with a red roof, what appears to be a red roof and chimneys, and

17 the usher's thumb near it. Now, what building is that?

18 A. This here is the building of the police station in Bosanski Samac.

19 Q. Thank you. Does the main street run -- or does the street run

20 between those two buildings that you can see in F42?

21 A. The main street in Bosanski Samac run through these two

22 buildings. It was called Marsala Tito, the Marshal Tito Street, before

23 the war.

24 Q. Thank you. Please turn to P14, F43. What building does that

25 depict?

Page 1739

1 A. That is the building of the police station in Bosanski Samac.

2 Q. Is your office as chief of police depicted in that building? And

3 if so, point it out with the pointer.

4 A. Yes. That's the upstairs office with the balcony. It's right

5 over here.

6 Q. Had that been the office of the chief of police traditionally?

7 A. That is the office of the chief of crime prevention police.

8 Q. Thank you. Can you please turn over now to photograph F44 of

9 Exhibit P14. What does that depict?

10 A. This photograph depicts the yard of the police station in Bosanski

11 Samac.

12 Q. Thank you. Look at the -- beyond where the cars are parked, and

13 you'll see what appear to be low doors or gates with numbers on them. You

14 can see them faintly and just beyond the cars. Can you see that?

15 A. Yes, I can. Those are the garages for police vehicles in this

16 yard of the police station, this over here.

17 Q. Thank you. Were prisoners ever housed there?

18 A. Yes. I was detained in one of these garages. It's the garage

19 here in the middle.

20 Q. Thank you. You see a white car in the foreground. I don't mean

21 van. I mean car, a white car partially obscured by a 44 gallon drum. Do

22 you see that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Whose car is that?

25 A. That is my very own personal car, which the Serb police took from

Page 1740

1 my garage and brought to this yard and used for their own purposes. It's

2 the vehicle right over here.

3 Q. Thank you. Now, look along the side of the photograph, the

4 left-hand side of the photograph. Look carefully along the left-hand side

5 of the photograph. You can see a white wall. Is that part of the SUP

6 building?

7 A. Yes, yes. That's the back side of the police station building,

8 this over here.

9 Q. Look towards the end of the wall. Can you see another wall

10 abutting or protruding out into the photograph and partly visible?

11 A. I can see that. That's the wall of the municipal administration

12 building in Bosanski Samac. That is practically where the government

13 was. The president of the municipality had his own there too. It's this

14 here. These are two buildings right next to one another.

15 Q. Thank you. In the time that you were imprisoned, was it being

16 used as the municipality headquarters? -- The time that you were in prison

17 at the SUP.

18 A. I don't know that, but I assume that it is so.

19 Q. Thank you. Turn to photograph P46 of P14. The large building in

20 the foreground, what does that depict?

21 A. That is the building of the municipal administration, the building

22 that houses the municipal administration, that is, the government, the

23 municipal authorities or, rather, most of these authorities.

24 Q. Did it house those bodies and perform those functions in the

25 period of time leading up to April of 1992?

Page 1741

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What about after April of 1992? Do you have any information as to

3 what that building was used for or who occupied it?

4 A. I don't know about that, because I did not have an opportunity to

5 see this for myself. However, my information says that these authorities

6 did operate from that building after the war broke out. I don't know

7 whether it went on throughout the wartime period.

8 Q. And for completeness's sake, the smaller white building that you

9 see to the right-hand side of the photograph, what is that building?

10 A. This is the police station building.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 A. Perhaps it is important to mention also that up here -- that

13 before the war, up here were the offices of the president of the municipal

14 government, and over here are the offices of the president of the

15 Municipal Assembly. These are the windows of their offices.

16 Q. Show us the window of the president of the Municipal Assembly,

17 please. You didn't point that out.

18 A. It should be these two windows here, these two. I'm not sure

19 about the third one, though, but these two should be those windows. And

20 here in between was the office of the secretary of the president of the

21 municipality, whereas these windows here are the windows of the office of

22 the president of the municipal government.

23 Q. Thank you. Turn over and look at photo F47 of P14, please. You

24 see numbers 2 and 4 in the photographs on garage doors, corrugated iron

25 garage doors. Can you show us where you were kept?

Page 1742

1 A. I was kept in this garage in the middle, which would correspond to

2 number 3. There is a total of five garages, and that's the one in the

3 middle.

4 Q. Good. Thank you for your assistance, Mr. Lukac. I don't want to

5 use the photographs any further at this stage.

6 Now, we're talking about the period of time when you returned to

7 Bosanski Samac. You were placed in garage 3. Who were you placed there

8 with?

9 A. Together with me in garage number 3 were the persons who came with

10 me from Batajnica; that is to say, [redacted], Barukcic, and Perkovic.

11 Q. Do you have any idea of the number of prisoners being housed in

12 the SUP at that particular time when you were returned to Bosanski Samac?

13 I'm talking about the SUP. Not the TO, the SUP.

14 A. When we came, we received information - and in part, we could see

15 this for ourselves - that in some of the rooms on the ground floor of the

16 police station building there was a large number of prisoners. I think

17 that when they were being transferred from the SUP building to the TO

18 building, there was some information to the effect that about 100 persons

19 were transferred. I don't know whether this number is accurate or not,

20 but at any rate, it was a large number of people.

21 Q. How long did you remain in garage number 3?

22 A. I remained in that garage from the 26th or the 27th of May until,

23 as far as I can remember, the 23rd of June.

24 Q. So a period of almost a month. In that period of time, were you

25 beaten?

Page 1743

1 A. I personally was not beaten, but some of these other men were,

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 Q. At the time that you were in garage 3 for that period of about a

13 month, apart from seeing beatings, could you hear people screaming?

14 A. Those screams could be heard very well from the police station

15 building, and this usually happened late in the evening, 11.00, midnight,

16 1.00 a.m.

17 Q. So this is while you're in a garage out the back, in the backyard,

18 you can hear the screams from inside the building, from inside the SUP

19 building?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. Can you comment on the frequency in which you heard screams

22 emanating from the SUP. How often would that occur?

23 A. As I said, almost nightly. I cannot say precisely. I cannot say

24 that it was every night, but almost.

25 Q. Another name you have mentioned is that of Mr. Franjo Barukcic.

Page 1744

1 Was he beaten?

2 A. As I said, in this garage he was beaten by Stevan Todorovic, and

3 he was accompanied by one of these members of the special police force

4 from Serbia. On that occasion, Todorovic told him that he considered him

5 the Ustasha ideologue.

6 Q. Did you have any more encounters with Lugar whilst you were still

7 in garage number 3 at the SUP?

8 A. I saw Lugar in garage number 3 on two occasions. The first time

9 was several days after we were brought back from Batajnica. (redacted)

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 He pressed a pistol against Mr. Perkovic's head. He pulled the

14 trigger. The pistol did not fire. I don't know whether it was a trick or

15 it was something else, but I remember that incident.

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 Q. Do you recall the time of day that this attack took place?

20 A. From what I can remember, that was sometime in the afternoon.

21 Q. Were you beaten on this occasion?

22 A. I was not beaten on that occasion, but the person in uniform who

23 accompanied him and whom I did not know took me out of the garage, because

24 when Lugar walked into the garage -- by the way, there was a chain with a

25 padlock that was on the door of that garage. And when he walked in, he

Page 1745

1 told this person, "You take one [redacted]."

2 This other person took me out. We were perhaps ten metres away

3 from this garage, in the backyard, and he asked me what my name was, what

4 I did before the war. He asked me whether I was married. He asked me

5 whether I had children. I answered all these questions. And in the

6 vicinity was a policeman who was standing guard. He asked this policeman

7 if what I had said was true. He confirmed it, because he knew me. Then

8 he told me to go back in.

9 Q. Did Lugar do anything to you on this occasion?

10 A. I cannot recall details about what he did there, but he spent

11 quite a bit of time. I think that he placed a pistol against my head and

12 Perkovic's head. It was a pretty horrifying situation, but I cannot

13 recall all the details during that incident.

14 Q. The placing of the pistols against the head, now, you've told us

15 it happened to Perkovic. Are you saying it may have happened to you but

16 you can't recall, or it did happen to you?

17 A. I cannot recall details, but it is quite possible, because he

18 practised that with this weapon of his.

19 Q. Apart from your -- the beatings that were administered in garage

20 number 3 at the time that you were at Bosanski Samac -- I'll rephrase that

21 question. I want you now to comment on the conditions that existed in

22 the -- in garage number 3. I'm not referring to the beatings. I'm

23 referring to the conditions of life: food, blankets, medical treatment,

24 access to the outside world, matters like that. Can you please tell us

25 what conditions were like.

Page 1746

1 A. The area in front of the garage was paved. When we were brought

2 back from Batajnica that night, there were only two car tyres inside the

3 garage, and this policeman brought us a cardboard box which we flattened

4 and we made some kind of a bed out of it, and we placed one blanket under

5 and one blanket over it, because -- so we were both under the blanket.

6 As far as the food is concerned, I think that in the early days,

7 we were given two meals a day, and then it was then reduced to one, around

8 1.00 p.m., and this was part of a -- it was a military meal that we were

9 given.

10 Q. What sort of meal? I mean, how much food were you given? Was it

11 sufficient for your purposes?

12 A. This cooked meal, while we were getting it, it was in these

13 military tins, and it would be half a tin for the two of us.

14 Q. What about the blanket? This was -- this was summer, I believe.

15 Was one blanket sufficient for two of you?

16 A. One blanket is not sufficient, because this was, I believe, around

17 June, and I know that it rained continuously during that period and it was

18 fairly cold at night. We would just lie next to each other, and that way

19 we sort of kept warm.

20 Q. Were you eventually transferred from garage number 3?

21 A. I think that on the 23rd of June, we were moved into the police

22 building. This was after all the prisoners who had been in those premises

23 in the -- on the ground floor were transferred to the TO building and

24 these rooms were made empty. So there were prison cells there, so we were

25 placed in these prison cells, two per cell.

Page 1747

1 Q. Who was placed in the cell with you?

2 A. It was Mato Perkovic, and Barukcic, [redacted] were together in the

3 other cell.

4 Q. How far apart were these cells?

5 A. They were separated by a metal partition.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours just bear with me for one

7 moment, please.

8 Q. What part of the prison complex are the two cells -- sorry, of the

9 SUP, I should say.

10 A. These two cells were in the west section, western-oriented

11 section. That is to the left as you enter the building.

12 Q. How long did you remain in these cells -- or in this cell, I

13 should say.

14 A. I stayed there until I was exchanged, which more precisely was on

15 the 4th of September, 1992.

16 Q. And so that's a period of about two and a half, two and a half,

17 three months?

18 A. Two and a half months.

19 Q. During the period of time that you were in this particular cell,

20 were you beaten?

21 A. I personally was not beaten. There were minor instances of abuse

22 of this person Perkovic, and also Barukcic, but I think it was negligible

23 compared to what used to happen, what -- if somebody slapped me, I just

24 did not think that this was any serious abuse.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, yesterday I raised the

Page 1748

1 issue of a video that I wanted to show to the witness and to the Chamber.


3 MR. DI FAZIO: It is a video depicting areas around Bosanski

4 Samac. It is not an exchange video. And it shows features of the town,

5 the SUP, the TO, and so on.

6 It was proposed by the Chamber that one way of introducing the

7 small extract that I wish to show to the Chamber would be for me to

8 produce into evidence the full video and then use a small 15-minute -- and

9 it's 15 minutes which has been extracted from that video. The full video

10 is here, and we here, and we can produce that video into evidence, and I

11 propose to do that. The extract has been created. It's with the

12 technical people.

13 I've spoken to the Defence. They've had an opportunity of seeing

14 it. I'm told that they don't object to the extract being shown. I'm

15 happy to produce into evidence both the extract and the full video if

16 that's what the Defence wants and what the Chamber wants, but we're now

17 ready to proceed to showing that small extract.

18 The Defence have asked, further, that there be no audio component

19 to this extract because, in fact, one can hear the sound of a former

20 Prosecutor, Ms. Nancy Paterson on the video itself. I'm happy to do

21 that. I have no complaint with that. I'm willing to simply show the

22 video and then have it stopped and the witness can comment on what he sees

23 in it and explain what's being shown, and that's what I propose to do now.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we hear from the Defence?

25 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honour, this is exactly right, and we don't

Page 1749

1 have any objections.

2 MR. PANTELIC: Unless, Your Honours -- we have actually objections

3 to the full video to be admitted as the evidence, because that was not the

4 case -- correct me if I'm wrong.

5 Tell me, what is the number of the video?

6 [Defence counsel confer]

7 MR. PANTELIC: So we both agreed, Your Honours, that we could have

8 this special version here, but unfortunately for my learned friends from

9 the Prosecution bench, therefore, according to their list filed by the end

10 of April, V4 will not be produced in evidence.

11 So I am referring to the part of the submission of my learned

12 colleague that he is trying to introduce sort of on a small door this

13 video, and I object to that. I object to that, because we now can see

14 only this special version of this video V4, because it is not here in the

15 list of the Prosecutor motion. Thank you.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: If I understand you correctly, you're objecting to

17 the full video footage being produced.

18 MR. PANTELIC: That's correct, Madam President.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Because it wasn't listed before?

20 MR. PANTELIC: Absolutely. We have a decision here. We have sort

21 of case law with regard to this matter.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. So the full footage is a video you haven't

23 seen.

24 MR. PANTELIC: In fact, yes, this full footage was produced to us

25 in --

Page 1750

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Previously.

2 MR. PANTELIC: Previously, but --

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Just wait. You have seen it.


5 JUDGE MUMBA: So your objection is because it was decided

6 previously that it will not be used in evidence.

7 MR. PANTELIC: That is absolutely correct, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: So you are objecting to that change-over stance by

9 the Prosecution.

10 MR. PANTELIC: That's correct.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: And then for the extract, you have no objection.

12 MR. PANTELIC: No objection at all under the conditions that my

13 learned colleague Zecevic just informed you. So no sound in this short

14 version.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. In the extract, there should be no sound

16 because the witness is the one who is going to be the narrator, so to

17 speak.

18 MR. PANTELIC: That's correct. But I'm referring specifically,

19 Your Honour, to the part of the submission by my learned friend from the

20 Prosecution, because we are also facing the same situation like a few days

21 prior. So we have to establish certain practice and certain rules within

22 these proceedings. Thank you so much.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Any other comments from other counsel? What is the

24 position? Because there are now two different views.

25 MR. LUKIC [Interpretation] On behalf of the defence of Mr. Tadic,

Page 1751

1 we second what Mr. Zecevic and Pantelic have said, which are in line with

2 the comments made by the Trial Chamber yesterday in regard of the

3 preparation of defence. We do believe indeed we have to have a very clear

4 position about the evidence that has been already withdrawn, whether this

5 will now be again reintroduced, so that we can focus our efforts of

6 responding appropriately. And we have discussed this issue with our

7 learned friends from the Prosecution during the break, and I think that

8 they are clear on it.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Are you objecting to the extract being produced in

10 evidence?

11 MR. LUKIC [Interpretation] No. I do agree that the extract can be

12 shown, but not to have the entire tape introduced, because they had

13 withdrawn it already. And this is their position that they also expressed

14 in respect to Sulejman Tihic's book.

15 I think we have to establish a principle position on what to do

16 with exhibits that have been withdrawn.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: The last counsel, please.

18 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, on behalf of Mr. Zaric's defence, I

19 support everything that our learned colleague Mr. Lukic said. I don't see

20 basically that there is a difference between the position of Mr. Pantelic

21 and Mr. Zecevic. We all have agreed during the session that we'd have no

22 objection in regard to this extract, and this is exactly what Mr. Zecevic

23 said. On the other hand, we already took position in regard to these

24 evidences that were once on the list, and now they are trying -- and the

25 Office of the Prosecutor is trying to bring them back in this way, and

Page 1752

1 this also is the objection that Mr. Pantelic has raised. So we also

2 support Mr. Pantelic's objection.

3 JUDGE SINGH: Yes. If I might just make a comment. I think the

4 clear solution or the simple solution to this is as follows: that the

5 extracts be admitted by consent. Clearly both sides consent to the

6 extracts being produced. Insofar as the original is concerned, earlier

7 comments were made by the Tribunal to introduce it simply because we

8 thought that perhaps the Defence may want something in it, but it's quite

9 clear now that the Defence objects to its production. I'm quite sure that

10 the Prosecution also at the moment will not want it produced.

11 So by consent then, can the extracts being produced?

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, you certainly have my consent. I'm seeking

13 to introduce it. Perhaps my learned friends can indicate shortly if they

14 consent or not. I mean, we've got to the point now we're not going to,

15 effectively, play it. And of course if the Chamber wants to know what

16 their position is, I'm sure they'll indicate it shortly.

17 Can I, however, make some comments about the objections that has

18 been raised? I'll be brief in my comments.

19 JUDGE SINGH: If they consent, then you don't have to raise any


21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, because if there is consent on the extract,

22 then we go ahead with the extract.

23 JUDGE SINGH: Yes. We take it that all of you consent. Very

24 well. Thank you. All right. Then you show the extract and mark that as

25 an exhibit.

Page 1753

1 MR. DI FAZIO: That's taken us up to five minutes to 1:00.

2 Perhaps I'll just continue with some general evidence until 1.00, and

3 tomorrow we could show the extract itself.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: The extract, yes.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: I can indicate that I think I am approaching the

6 end of the evidence of Mr. Lukac.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: So we will have the numbering of the extracts

8 tomorrow when it is actually about to be shown.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.


11 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. And if I can just let the Chamber know, in

12 addition to this, I will be showing -- I propose to introduce another

13 video that's on the witness list, and that depicts exchanges. So I just

14 want to put the Defence on notice about that. That's on the list of

15 exhibits. That's another video. It's not the one we're talking about

16 now. If there are going to be any arguments about that, I suggest they

17 come to court marshalled and ready to go on their objections if there are

18 to be any objections.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you just clarify this other video you're talking

20 about? Do you intend to produce it tomorrow as well?

21 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: What number is it, for them to be able to check?

23 MR. DI FAZIO: It's the exchanges video. I don't have it at my

24 fingertips, but it's one of the V exhibits and -- yes, it's V3.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: It was marked V3 on your previous list.

Page 1754

1 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. There is not a problem with that. I've never

2 said that that is not to be produced so that --

3 JUDGE MUMBA: It has always been on the list.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: It's always been on the list, and I never sought to

5 withdraw it at any time.

6 MR. ZECEVIC: On behalf of the Defence, we don't have any

7 objection to that. Thank you.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. So that is back onside. Again, that one

9 will be shown tomorrow?

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.


12 MR. DI FAZIO: I might point out not in its entirety because I

13 will be referring to extracts from it as we are fast-forwarding through

14 it, because I don't wish to show it in its entirety at this point.

15 Do Your Honours wish me to continue?

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We have, I think, six minutes.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

18 Q. We were talking about the time that you were in the two cells in

19 the SUP building. This is after you've been transferred from the garage

20 number 3. Were you able to ascertain for the period of time remaining to

21 you, the period of time remaining to you before you were finally exchanged

22 whether new prisoners were being brought in and housed in the SUP

23 building, or indeed in the TO building, if you have any information in

24 respect of that?

25 A. Yes. New prisoners were brought in. They were placed in the

Page 1755

1 offices in the part of the building where we were in those prison cells,

2 and for that purposes, four offices were set aside in the building. When

3 I was going to the restroom, which was down the hallway, in the evening, I

4 was in the position to see a number of these prisoners. And I also had

5 some other information from prisoners who were bringing lunch on a daily

6 basis around 1300 hours. So I believe that in one of these rooms, there

7 were approximately 30 prisoners at one point. In other rooms, the number

8 varied from five to six to ten to fifteen.

9 Q. Throughout your evidence, you've described all the prisoners that

10 you saw, and universally they've been male. Were there any females,

11 women, imprisoned in the SUP?

12 A. During one period of time, in the first office to the left, there

13 were two Bosniak women detained. I had an opportunity to see them,

14 because on several occasions through the -- I was taken to those -- to the

15 room where those two women were. And the hallway and the other rooms that

16 were in that part of the building, I was made to do that by the policemen

17 who were guarding me.

18 Q. What sort of condition were these women in?

19 A. These women, under the circumstances, looked frightened and

20 concerned, which was to be expected, and I did not see anyone mistreat

21 them. But when I was brought in to clean the room, they -- it was awkward

22 and they reacted in a very feminine way. They were embarrassed that I had

23 to do the kind of work in the room where they were staying.

24 Q. The reasons for that might not be immediately apparent to everyone

25 in court. What caused the embarrassment precisely?

Page 1756












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Page 1757

1 A. I assume the reason was because they knew that I was a chief of

2 police before the war and now I was put in the situation to clean the

3 room, so that I assume that that is the feeling that they had. Neither of

4 them said anything to me, but they told the policeman that they would

5 clean up; however, he did not allow it.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm sorry, what about you yourself? Did you feel

7 humiliated by that?

8 A. I felt humiliated on the basis of many things, but the fact that I

9 was taken out several times to do this was one of the reasons, because the

10 person -- I think that the policeman who took me out to do this wanted to

11 humiliate me in this way. It was one of the members of the Serbian police

12 who did not work there before the war, and I'm sure that no policeman who

13 had worked there before the war would have allowed that to -- would permit

14 himself that.


16 Q. On how many occasions were you ordered to sweep up?

17 A. I think that I was taken out three or four mornings to do this.

18 The fourth time, while I was cleaning the room of the duty officer, Simo

19 Krunic, who was a pre-war policeman, entered the room. Over a period of

20 time, I was his commander before the war. He asked me who had told me to

21 do this, and I told him that I was ordered that to do by the duty

22 officer. He said to the other police officer to take me back to the room

23 and that he did not want to see this ever happen again.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: It's time for our break, Mr. Prosecutor. We shall

25 rise now and continue our proceedings tomorrow at 0930 hours. The Court

Page 1758

1 will rise.

2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

3 1.04 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday, the 27th

4 day of September, 2001 at 9.30 a.m.