Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4433

1 Monday, 26 November 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 [The accused Milan Simic not present]

6 --- Upon commencing at 9.42 a.m.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning. Please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case number

9 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Milan Simic, Miroslav

10 Tadic, and Simo Zaric.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Trial Chamber has noticed that Mr. Milan

12 Simic is not in the courtroom. Can we hear from the Defence counsel,

13 please.

14 MR. ZECEVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. We have been just

15 talking to our client over the phone, and he advised us that he is willing

16 to waive his right for the cross-examination of this witness but would

17 like to be present when the new witness comes in. So in other words, that

18 means we can finish the cross-examination of this witness and then see if

19 he would be able to come today at all. Thank you.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. So the cross-examination will proceed.

21 Mr. Lukic.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.


24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 Cross-examined by Mr. Lukic:

Page 4434

1 Q. Good morning, Witness. I'm Novak Lukic, attorney at law. On

2 behalf of the Defence team of Mr. Miroslav Tadic, I shall be putting a few

3 questions to you.

4 I have to tell you about an impression of mine straight away.

5 During your examination by the Prosecutor and by my colleague Mr. Zecevic,

6 I realised that you were aware of many details, many names. You read many

7 names from the lists that were shown to you and you had something to say

8 about every one of these persons. Also, you said several times that Samac

9 is a small town and that practically everybody knows each other. Because

10 of that, I shall say to you straight away that through my questions, I

11 would like you to clarify some details of this nature which, in my

12 opinion, remained unclear after the direct examination. If you remember

13 some of these things, please answer me. If you don't remember, of course

14 I'm not going to insist. I fully realise that a lot of time has gone by.

15 I would like to start with your invitation to come to the TO to

16 collect weapons. You said that you were phoned by a man whose name you

17 don't remember. I would like to ask you whether you remember how this

18 person introduced himself to you. Did this person say on whose behalf he

19 was calling? Did he introduce himself by his position, first and

20 foremost?

21 A. Mr. Novak Lukic, Your Honours, I have understood this question.

22 As far as I can remember, I said that this person did not introduce

23 himself, but that person told me to come to the TO staff to take a rifle.

24 However, as far as these lists are concerned, I would like to ask you that

25 we do not lose too much time over this.

Page 4435

1 Q. I'm not going to ask you anything about lists. This was just an

2 illustration of the point I wish to make.

3 A. We did go back to the list, and I think it does say in my

4 statement that I do not recall who phoned me. In my statement, I wrote

5 that Salkic Ibrahim, nicknamed Ibela, and many others gave this to me and

6 I did not conceal a thing. As I look at the list that you mentioned to

7 you [as interpreted], the list that I have been looking at for two days, I

8 saw names of my fellow citizens who were registered twice on the same

9 list. And please, in the period from the 17th until the 11th of August,

10 1992, in Bosanski Samac, no lists were shown to me. The first time I saw

11 lists was here in the courtroom. I would like to ask you to free me of

12 these lists, if possible, because I'm not competent to discuss them.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Just wait for the questions from counsel, all

14 right? And when he asks a question, you answer just that question. Then

15 we'll move much faster.

16 MR. LUKIC: May I proceed?

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please proceed.

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. You have clarified quite a bit for us by having said what this

20 person said to you, that this person said to you that you should be issued

21 with a weapon; isn't that right?

22 A. Yes. Yes.

23 Q. Can you tell us whether this piece of news, that you would get a

24 weapon, frightened you?

25 A. It upset me and frightened me.

Page 4436

1 Q. Did you try to refuse this weapon?

2 A. No, I did not try to refuse to accept this weapon.

3 Q. You have already mentioned that this rifle was given to you by

4 Ibrahim Salkic. During the cross-examination by Mr. Zecevic, you said

5 that there were five or six more people there. If I understood you

6 correctly, you were referring to the people who were participating in the

7 distribution of these weapons?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Over there in the TO premises, did you see Mr. Alija Fitozovic?

10 A. As far as I can remember, no, I did not.

11 Q. You knew him at the time?

12 A. My fellow citizen and friend before the war.

13 Q. Is it correct that also before the war, he was a member of your

14 party too?

15 A. Yes, I heard that he was a member of the party.

16 Q. Did you see him at the meetings of your party?

17 A. No, sir, I did not see him.

18 Q. Do you recall this list in the TO premises, the list where you

19 placed your signature upon receipt of the rifle, how many persons were on

20 the list itself?

21 A. No, I am not aware of this list. I saw in the yard that there

22 were a large number of us.

23 Q. As far as I can remember you said over 100 people?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You said that it was primarily Muslims and Croats?

Page 4437

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In this group in the yard were there any Serbs?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you recall how many, in your estimate?

5 A. I would have to think about this for a longer period of time, and

6 I would have to have a list of the persons who were present and then I

7 could categorize them.

8 Q. Can you tell me in approximate percentage terms, I'm not asking

9 for the accurate percentage?

10 A. I cannot give you an assessment just off the cuff now.

11 Q. But they were primarily Muslims and Croats, that's what you said?

12 A. I was aware that the commander of the TO Miloj Bogdanovic was

13 there. The man who worked by him was Janko Dujmusic's son. If you were

14 referring to the Serb ethnicity, they were among the leading people of the

15 TO.

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May I have a moment, Your Honours,

17 please.

18 Q. Are you sure that Dujmusic is a Serb?

19 A. I thinks so.

20 Q. But you're not sure?

21 A. No, I'm not sure. I never distinguish between people by name and

22 surname.

23 Q. When you were answering the Prosecutor on the first day, you

24 explained that in the military, you were in the technical service?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4438

1 Q. As far as I understood you, you spent most of your time working on

2 vehicle maintenance?

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. You -- it's also then that you had been issued with an M-48 rifle?

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. That is an ordinary rifle, not a semi-automatic rifle like the one

7 that was issued to you at the TO?

8 A. After many years, I would see this rifle in my hands as well.

9 Q. On the 16th of April?

10 A. 1992.

11 Q. Before that, you never saw it? You never had it in your hands to

12 be precise.

13 A. Before that, I did not have such weapons in my hands.

14 Q. As for these people who gave you this weapon, this rifle, did you

15 tell them that you never had a semi-automatic rifle in your hands before?

16 A. I did not have the possibility to do that, time was very short

17 while this distribution lasted and also the explanation as to how these

18 weapons should be handled and the agreement was that on the 20th of April,

19 on Sunday, 1992, we should meet at the town stadium.

20 Q. I shall continue along the lines of your last sentence. Do you

21 remember who told you to come to the town stadium?

22 A. One of these five or six men who were distributing weapons to us.

23 Q. You also said that many people who came there to the TO yard did

24 not get rifles, and that they even protested on account of that.

25 A. Possibly.

Page 4439

1 Q. Sir, that day when you got a rifle, you were still a member of the

2 town board of the SDA; isn't that right?

3 A. Yes, I was.

4 Q. Are you aware of the fact that your party gave a list of names of

5 persons who should be invited to come to the TO to be issued with a rifle?

6 A. I don't know about that.

7 Q. Just a few more questions related to your previous war

8 assignment. Let us clarify these matters in connection with the responses

9 you gave to Mr. Zecevic. [redacted]

10 [redacted]?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In fact, within that company?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can we hear what your reserve arms and services were, was it with

15 the JNA or the TO?

16 A. I think the TO.

17 Q. Your assignment was within your company [redacted]

18 A. Yes, within the TO [redacted], because my company was of

19 military significance.

20 Q. Before that, did you ever engage in military exercises?

21 A. Never after 1972 until 1992 I did not have a single military

22 exercise.

23 Q. You never had a rifle in your hands until the 16th, that is to

24 say, since you got out of the army?

25 A. Yes. I never had a rifle from completing my military service all

Page 4440

1 the way up to 1992.

2 Q. You did not see Miloj Bogdanovic there, that very place?

3 A. No, I did not sir.

4 Q. And it was mainly Muslims and Croats who got weapons; isn't that

5 right?

6 A. A few days ago during my statement, I said that when I think back,

7 it was mostly Muslims and Croats.

8 Q. And then you thought it was still the old TO?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. That consisted of all the citizens of Samac?

11 A. That's precisely what I thought.

12 Q. You mentioned during your testimony that Aziz Hecimovic came to

13 your house and said you should not go out until a messenger came to get

14 you?

15 A. Yes, that's true.

16 Q. Did you know that gentleman from before?

17 A. [redacted].

18 Q. Was he a member of the SDA?

19 A. Yes, he was a member of the SDA as far as I know.

20 Q. Do you know that he is one of the founders of the SDA in Bosanski

21 Samac?

22 A. No, I am not aware of this piece of information.

23 Q. [redacted]?

24 A. [redacted].

25 Q. You also described the fact that you did take this rifle

Page 4441

1 nevertheless, and you went to the park, to the square in the centre of

2 town at your own initiative, and that over there, you encountered about 15

3 persons. As far as I remember, you said that they had previously, on the

4 previous day, been at the TO together with you when weapons were being

5 distributed; isn't that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. During your testimony on the 21st, on page 4222, you said that all

8 of them were ethnic Croats and Muslims; is that correct?

9 A. Yes. Now that I go back to that, all of them were Croats and

10 Muslims.

11 Q. There was not a single armed Serb there?

12 A. There was not a single armed Serb there.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, I'm not clear in my mind which group is now

14 being referred to as "only Croats and Muslims"? Was it the group that

15 gathered in the park or the group that was at the TO collecting weapons?

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. We'll have this clarified

17 now.

18 Q. You have heard what the President said. So which group are we

19 talking about? These 15 people, who were they?

20 A. The group of 15 people whom I encountered around the centre of my

21 town, on the 17th of April, in the morning, was a group of people from the

22 earlier days when weapons were distributed at the Territorial Defence.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Is it now clear enough?


25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 4442












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Page 4443

1 Q. You said you got out spontaneously. Since you spent a couple of

2 hours with these people, do you know whether they had come out

3 spontaneously too?

4 A. I don't remember any more. We were all stricken by panic.

5 Q. Were you waiting for someone who was supposed to come there?

6 Isn't that true?

7 A. The previous day a larger number of us was there.

8 Q. I don't quite understand your answer. Let me rephrase my

9 question. You said during your examination-in-chief that you were waiting

10 for a man who was supposed to be in a position of superiority there and

11 you didn't know who this man was. Did I understand you correctly?

12 A. Sir, you can put it that way too. The previous day there were

13 five or six people who were distributing weapons. They too were supposed

14 to come, together with the same number of people who had been in the

15 courtyard of the TO headquarters.

16 Q. Can we agree, then, that it was an assembly point where you were

17 supposed to gather?

18 A. It had not been mentioned ever before as an assembly point or

19 otherwise until the 20th of April, when we were supposed to gather at the

20 town stadium.

21 Q. Do you remember perhaps the names of any of the people who were

22 there, any of the 15 names?

23 A. It's difficult. It was so many years ago. But I'll try to

24 remember some names. One man's name was Baca. My fellow townsfolk know

25 him well. He was a shepherd. Another man's name was Crvic. He lived in

Page 4444

1 the Lower Mahala. A third man was Hasan. He was the son of the sister of

2 a colleague of mine, Hasan Nurkic -- Galib Nurkic, sorry. Galib Nurkic I

3 really cannot tell you any more names without taking some time off to

4 think about it.

5 Q. I don't want to go into that much detail. I will just ask you

6 whether Ibrahim Salkic had come there too.

7 A. No, Ibrahim Salkic didn't come there. He didn't join that group.

8 I didn't see him until 9.00 p.m. that night, when I heard his voice

9 through the megaphone, without seeing him [as interpreted]. I saw him

10 later at the MUP when I was already detained.

11 Q. We'll deal with that later. Thank you. Just another question.

12 You mentioned that one of those men was from Lower Mahala, so not all of

13 the people were from Samac.

14 A. We were all from Samac, locals from Samac.

15 Q. The lower Mahala is a part of Samac, but was everyone from the

16 centre of Samac?

17 A. If it's a part of Samac, it means the person is from Samac.

18 Q. Let us move on to another topic. On the 21st of November, in

19 response to one of the Prosecutor's questions, you described how you were

20 forced, in Samac, one night after the 17th of April, to keep your premises

21 in the dark. You were not allowed to turn on lights in your apartments.

22 According to you, that order was not fully observed.

23 A. Our flats were supposed to be dark. Windows were supposed to be

24 covered.

25 Q. That's precisely what I'm interested in. So there was an order to

Page 4445

1 keep flats dark during the night?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber and us what was the

4 meaning and what was the purpose of this, of keeping your windows and

5 flats in darkness? I mean, as you see it, I would like to know how you

6 understand it, why you were supposed to cover your windows with blankets

7 and not turn your lights on.

8 A. I really wouldn't know. Probably because of the aviation.

9 Q. Would it be fair to say that the purpose of keeping premises dark

10 was to rule out the possibility of damage from night-time shelling?

11 A. All I know was that I behaved as a conscientious citizen. I

12 obeyed and complied with every order and instruction.

13 Q. That's not what I asked you. I'll ask you another question.

14 Would a well-lit house be a better target for shelling at night than one

15 which is not lit?

16 A. It would, sir.

17 Q. A moment ago you mentioned your meeting with Ibela, Ibela. I

18 would like just one more clarification. Specifically, the shooting in

19 Samac - and I think this has become undisputed here - was heard, was

20 audible, between the 16th and 17th of April, wasn't it?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. We have already established that it was during the night between

23 Thursday and Friday.

24 A. That's how it was imprinted on my memory, yes.

25 Q. And you said that you heard Ibela speaking through a megaphone,

Page 4446

1 saying that weapons should be left outside houses at 9.00 on the 17th.

2 A. As far as I remember, that's what I said.

3 Q. And you complied with that order and turned over your

4 rifle -- that is, your wife turned over your rifle to a young man, and as

5 you put it yourself, you were in possession of that rifle between 1600 and

6 1700 hours.

7 A. I couldn't wait to get rid of it.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction. I was in possession

9 of the rifle for 16 or 17 hours.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. So you had the rifle for less than one day?

12 A. I have just given you the correct number of hours as I calculated

13 it.

14 Q. And you turned over the rifle after you heard Ibela's instructions

15 through the megaphone to turn over the weapons?

16 A. Dear sir, since I heard shooting, fire exchanges, from the

17 earliest hours of that day, and I saw houses and the school building

18 burning, I could hardly wait to give this rifle to someone, so I turned it

19 over to this young man. And I was waiting for some reasonable force to

20 come to Samac and tell people, "You've had enough of this suffering and

21 uncertainty," and to introduce some order.

22 Q. And you complied with that order after you heard Ibela speaking

23 through a megaphone. That's what I asked you.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I would now like you to answer a couple of questions regarding

Page 4447

1 your stay in Batkovici and your exchange. You were transferred to

2 Batkovici on the 27th of November, 1992?

3 A. As far as I remember.

4 Q. You also stated that on the 13th of December, the same year, you

5 were registered by the ICRC?

6 A. Yes, as far as I remember.

7 Q. You were taken to the military court in Bijeljina for the first

8 time in end December of the same year?

9 A. If I remember correctly, it was sometime in spring 1993.

10 Q. Did you receive any decision from the court before the spring of

11 1993?

12 A. What kind of decision do you mean? I don't understand your

13 question, Mr. Novak.

14 Q. Did you receive a decision ruling your remand in custody?

15 A. After six or seven months in detention, I was told that I had been

16 convicted and there was also a decision that I was supposed to sign.

17 Q. Before you were transferred to Bijeljina, had you given any

18 statements to any official authority?

19 A. Yes, there was a procedure. Everybody was supposed to give a

20 statement in the admissions office, and in the course of the first seven

21 days I, too, gave a statement to the investigations judge in the SUP.

22 Q. That was in August, wasn't it?

23 A. That was during the first days of my detention.

24 Q. You said that --

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

Page 4448

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Microphone, counsel.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will repeat my question.

3 Q. You said that Miroslav Tadic was in Batkovici for the last time in

4 June 1993; is that correct?

5 A. After the exchange of my fellow townsfolk in the month of

6 August -- in the month of June it was they were exchanged, and what I

7 stated was that I didn't see him after that.

8 Q. Was Ibrahim Salkic together with you at the camp in Batkovici?

9 A. Yes, for a while, and he was taken to Vlasenica for a period of

10 time.

11 Q. How about Omer Nalic?

12 A. Yes, he was with me in the camp and for a while, he was taken to

13 Vlasenica as far as I know.

14 Q. Was Pasaga Tihic together with you in Batkovici?

15 A. Yes, he was. As far as I know, he was taken away to Vlasenica for

16 a period of time.

17 Q. Did you share a hangar with any of them?

18 A. He was taken to Vlasenica and when he got back there after the

19 exchange, we were together in the same hangar.

20 Q. Do you remember that these people were exchanged in that last

21 exchange in July?

22 A. We never went together, all of us, only a group would be taken

23 away.

24 Q. But after July 1993, they were no longer in Batkovici?

25 A. I would need some time to remember.

Page 4449

1 Q. You have just said that before the exchange, they were in the same

2 hangar with you?

3 A. Before one of the exchanges, there were several of them.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would now like to

5 tender two lists for exchanges dating back to June 1993. These lists have

6 been translated by official authorised translators into English so we have

7 a complete set of evidence. I would like to introduce first one list and

8 then the other, and then I would like to ask this witness a couple of

9 questions regarding the lists. They were delivered to the Office of the

10 Prosecutor on the 4th of September in the process of reciprocal

11 disclosure, and they have had them since then and also all of these have

12 been made available to the translation unit --

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well.

14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] -- to the interpreters, I'm sorry.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, can we have the numbers, please? First of all,

16 I want to find out from the Prosecution ...

17 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm just looking at them now, if Your Honours

18 please. I don't think there will be a problem. May I just have a moment

19 to look at them?

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Okay.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: I can see no reason to object to the admission of

22 these documents.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Can we have the numbers, please.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit D13/3 ter, and D13/3 for the

25 English translation.

Page 4450

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. I suppose, Witness, that you haven't seen this before, but I would

4 just like you to read the title, the heading, that is, and the date?

5 A. 1st Krajina Corps Commission for the Exchange of Prisoners of War,

6 Banja Luka, date, 1st of June, 1993.

7 Q. Please slow down please this has to be interpreted. To whom is

8 this addressed?

9 A. Main Staff of the army of Republika Srpska to the commission,

10 attention Colonel Zdravko Tolimir.

11 Q. What is written below that?

12 A. Pale.

13 Q. If you don't mind, please read the sentence which is marked in

14 yellow.

15 A. "We have succeeded in reaching an agreement with the

16 representatives of the HVO of Posavina about the exchange of prisoners

17 from the area of Orasje the prison of Lower Mahala. Please approve the

18 proposed package, because the exchange will take place on Saturday, the

19 5th of June 1993 in Dragalic on the highway."

20 Q. Could you please tell me, do you see on this list the names of

21 your fellow citizens that I asked you about?

22 A. I see, sir, a lot of my fellow citizens.

23 Q. I mean the three we have just mentioned.

24 A. Yes. Among ordinary townsfolk, I see the three that we have

25 mentioned recently.

Page 4451

1 Q. If you would be so kind as to read the last sentence on page 2

2 which is also highlighted and the name of the person who is the author of

3 this letter?

4 A. "The commission of the Main Staff of the army of Republika Srpska

5 is kindly requested to issue, upon approval, an order to the prisons in

6 Batkovici, Doboj and Banja Luka on the separation of prisoners, selection

7 of prisoners for exchange to be conducted by the commission of the 1st

8 Krajina Corps Banja Luka." And it is signed as President Milutin

9 Grujicic, Captain First Class.

10 Q. I think the stamp is visible enough, can you read it?

11 A. Military post code, Banja Luka. The Cyrillic script is something

12 that I am very familiar with because I learned it in primary school.

13 However, I notice very much that both scripts are often used in the same

14 letter but I don't mind.

15 Q. I don't mind either. Have you heard about Milutin Grujicic?

16 A. Never.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I should now like to tender my second

18 document dealing with the same exchange. It's of the same nature, but

19 addressed to a different institution. It is accompanied by an official

20 translation into English.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, looking at this document and the official

22 translation, I get the impression that this was a list prepared "yet to be

23 approved," not that this is -- these were actually exchanged from the

24 evidence of this document. My understanding is that this list was

25 prepared, it was yet to be approved for purposes of exchange. That's your

Page 4452












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Page 4453

1 position? Yes.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That is completely correct. I want to

3 prove who makes decisions, who gives approval, and what the procedure is

4 in this matter.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Judge Williams has a question too.

6 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Lukic, in looking at these lists, I think

7 this is the first time we've had mention of prisoners of war. So is my

8 understanding correct that these lists were for the exchange of combatant

9 prisoners of war as opposed to civilians.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] You are quite right, Your Honour.

11 This commission, which is officially called "The Commission for the

12 Exchange of Prisoners of War from Banja Luka," attached to the 1st Krajina

13 Corps, which was part of the army of Republika Srpska, decided on

14 exchanges of persons which they claimed had the status of prisoners of

15 war, in view of proceedings that had taken place before military courts.

16 All prisoners in Batkovici were exchanged through military commissions,

17 with military commissions of the other side.

18 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Just one sort of thought I have therefor, and I

19 presume we'll be hearing, as the trial progresses, evidence on this.

20 Obviously, the treatment of prisoners of war is governed by the Geneva

21 Conventions 1949 and the two additional protocols to those conventions of

22 1977, and as I'm sure we're all aware, one of the provisions concerns

23 treatment of prisoners of war and the rights of a fair and regular trial

24 and also the right not to be subjected to beatings, and so on and so

25 forth. I'm not asking a question on that; I'm just sort of putting it out

Page 4454

1 as something that I'm sure will need to be addressed at some point.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Certainly. The Defence has planned

3 this since the beginning of this trial.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. And in addition to that -- because we've heard

5 evidence of how some of the people who were not combatants but were

6 detained, treated the way the evidence has gone so far, and then later on

7 charged and tried and sentenced, so there seems to be additional parts,

8 and whether all that is included in the claim of them being prisoners of

9 war, that is another -- just a detail which I wanted to have clarified

10 later on in the trial, and especially during the Defence case.

11 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Sorry, Mr. Lukic. Just one last question here.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE WILLIAMS: And this is a question for the witness. In

14 looking at the list, Witness, the three highlighted names - number 7, 10,

15 and 11 - did you know these three people to be military people, to be

16 combatants, or civilians? Could you give us your opinion on that, or your

17 knowledge rather than your opinion.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. These people are my fellow

19 citizens who had worked in enterprises. They were by no means military

20 men. I don't know whether they were in possession of any weapons on the

21 17th of April. All of these people are my fellow citizens who were

22 civilians, who were employed in various enterprises until the 17th of

23 April, 1992. And I also know that Esef Zaimbegovic was director of

24 Uniglas; Arminko Puric; Husein Arapovic; Mirsad Gebic, and some others.

25 There are people whom I don't know, and they must -- they are probably

Page 4455

1 from the surrounding villages.

2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch all the last names.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will only add one minor

4 clarification. On page 2 of this list, we have a list of 21 persons, and

5 these are persons offered for exchange by the other side. And we can see

6 by their place of residence that they are Serbs, but I can also put it in

7 the form of question to the witness.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I'm not objecting, but I

9 just want to be clear about the evidence. Which document is my learned

10 friend referring to? I assume we're still on D13.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: /3, yes. Yes, page 2.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I apologise for the interruption.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, because page 2 also starts from number 1, up to

14 21.

15 Yes, Counsel. Go ahead.

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Just a question to the witness. Can he give his opinion

18 concerning the persons on page 2? According to their names and surnames

19 and their place of birth, are they Serbs?

20 A. Many last names are well known to me, my fellow citizens who came

21 to the town of Samac, and many of them probably lived in the town of

22 Samac. However, in terms of the place where they were born, I see that

23 they were outside Samac. Most probably, many of them worked in Bosanski

24 Samac as well, in work organisations there.

25 Q. My only question was whether they were Serbs.

Page 4456

1 A. I never distinguished people by their names and surnames. I don't

2 know how they would declare themselves.

3 Q. Witness, when you testified, when you spoke about the ethnic

4 composition of arrested persons, when you spoke of the ethnic composition

5 of the persons assembled in the square, when you spoke of the ethnic

6 composition of persons who were waiting in line for permits to leave

7 Samac, then you did know the ethnic background of these people. I'm

8 putting a simple question to you. These surnames and names and places of

9 birth, do they indicate to you what the ethnic background of these persons

10 is?

11 A. Sir, I would say that they were all of Serb ethnicity.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 JUDGE SINGH: Just one or two clarifications, Witness. On which

14 side of the border is the prison Donja Mahala? Is it on the

15 Bosnia-Herzegovinian side or on the Croatian side?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you meant a particular locality

17 in my town of Samac, that is practically the centre of the town of

18 Bosanski Samac. The locality itself was called Donja Mahala, and there

19 was Gornja Mahala, Bosnari, Savari, but all of that is an integral part of

20 Bosanski Samac.

21 JUDGE SINGH: [Microphone not activated] And where exactly is --

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Judge Singh, please.

23 JUDGE SINGH: Where exactly is Batkovici?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Batkovici is not far away from

25 Bijeljina, where the Drina flows into the Sava River.

Page 4457

1 JUDGE SINGH: So that's still in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]?

3 A. Yes. Yes, in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

4 JUDGE SINGH: Thank you. Just one more question. Lukic, this is

5 a clarification from you. You had tried to describe this document D13/3,

6 and you said that, in amplification, the proceedings had taken place

7 before a military tribunal. Is that correct or was it a civilian court

8 where the present witness was charged and convicted?

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in about ten minutes I

10 shall move on to the topic of his trial, and I believe that the documents

11 will show quite clearly where he was tried and on the basis of which

12 documents. To the best of our knowledge, this witness was tried before

13 the court in Bijeljina and the Supreme Military Court of Republika

14 Srpska. However, we shall be discussing this with the witness quite soon.

15 JUDGE SINGH: But since you know, can you tell us, was it a

16 military tribunal or was it a civilian court that they were tried in?

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, a military court.

18 Exclusively a military court.

19 JUDGE SINGH: Thank you.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. In response to Judge Singh's question, I would like to seek some

22 clarification. The area of Orasje, who had authority over the area of

23 Orasje during the war, military authority, that is?

24 A. Sir, during the war, I was never in Orasje. People said that it

25 was the HVO that was in power there, the Croat Defence Council.

Page 4458

1 Q. And there is a place called Donja Mahala in the municipality of

2 Orasje?

3 A. There is a place called Donja Mahala in the municipality of

4 Orasje.

5 Q. I only wish to clarify that.

6 A. Yes. Yes.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] As for the second list, I don't know

8 whether we have received a number for it from the registrar.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: We haven't yet seen it. I take it it's the same

10 position with this one from the Prosecution.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Yes.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, that's correct, if Your Honours please.


15 MR. DI FAZIO: It's been properly translated and it was disclosed

16 to us, so there's no objection.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the number, please.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit D14/3 ter, and D14/3 for the

19 English translation.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would now like to ask you that we

21 move through this document in the same way.

22 Q. Could you read the letterhead, please, everything that was

23 highlighted.

24 A. The 1st Krajina Corps. It's to the Commission for the Exchange of

25 Prisoners of War, Banja Luka, the 3rd of June, 1993, to the Eastern Bosnia

Page 4459

1 Corps, to Colonel Pero Koljevic, Bijeljina.

2 "We kindly ask Colonel Pero Koljevic to help us in organising the

3 package of exchanges with the representatives of the HVO Posavina,

4 Orasje. We have agreed on this, and approval should arrive any moment,

5 and we kindly ask you personally to help us in separating prisoners from

6 Batkovici. The group of prisoners envisaged for an exchange will be taken

7 over by a member of the mixed commission from Samac, Miro Tadic, who will,

8 at the same time, contact you. We look forward to your help and we thank

9 you."

10 We have envisaged the following prisoners, Croats and Muslims,

11 from Batkovici to be exchanged."

12 Q. Could you please just look at the signature?

13 A. Chairman Milutin Grujicic, Captain First Class.

14 Q. In this list, we see again these three persons that I asked you

15 about at the beginning; isn't that right?

16 A. Yes. From the list, we see -- from the first, 20, and here there

17 are 21. So for one, no agreement was reached.

18 Q. We also see that the date here is two days after the first date?

19 A. Yes. The 3rd and the 1st, you're right, sir, yes.

20 Q. Do you know that in the prison of Donja Mahala that was in the

21 territory of the municipality of Orasje and under the control of the Croat

22 Defence Council there were Serbs who were detained there?

23 A. Sir, during the war I was never in the territory of Orasje.

24 Q. I just asked you whether you were aware of this fact, not whether

25 you were there.

Page 4460

1 A. All of us at the hangar knew that regardless of whether people

2 were brought from their homes or whether these were combatants brought in

3 from the front line, we all knew the other side should have the same

4 number of Serbs in order for an exchange to be carried out. Where they

5 were detained, I don't know.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Before you ask the question, I just want

7 clarification. The witness looked at this list, D14/3, you asked him that

8 there are three names which were discussed in the other list, in D13/3,

9 there were three names discussed and then in this list, D14/3, the same

10 three names do appear. Are these the names at 7, 10, and 11 for

11 clarification? That's all. That is the correct -- yes.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]


17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. I would just like to put another question to you now related to

19 the previous one. You were detained in August 1992 and until then, you

20 did what you described to my colleague, Mr. Zecevic, and to the

21 Prosecutor. Do you know what happened on the 8th of May in Odzak, 1992?

22 A. In the war, I was never in the territory of Odzak until the 17th

23 of July, 1992.

24 Q. Perhaps we haven't understood each other again. I just asked you

25 whether you knew what happened in Odzak on that day, if you do know, if

Page 4461

1 you heard about it tell us about it. If you don't know, you don't.

2 A. The 8th of May, no, I don't know.

3 Q. Do you know that all Serbs who lived in the territory of the

4 municipality of Odzak were detained in the month of May 1992 by the Croat

5 Defence Council?

6 A. I had the opportunity of hearing over Radio Serb Samac already in

7 the beginning of May 1992.

8 Q. So you heard about this piece of news?

9 A. Yes. I heard about it over the radio.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please move into private

12 session now, Your Honours, because I would like to put a few questions

13 related to the trial before the military court in Bijeljina. Also on this

14 occasion, I would like to tender some documents related to these

15 proceedings; however, regrettably, I have not got any official

16 translations of these documents yet although I did ask the registrar for

17 it. So I would like to analyse this with the witness.

18 These are two decisions and one judgement. I have no note that

19 these documents were submitted to us by the Prosecution and, according to

20 the letter that we got from the OTP, it seems that this witness personally

21 had submitted these documents to the OTP; however, we are going to clarify

22 this clue through our questions.

23 I would kindly ask the usher for his assistance.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we move into private session.

25 [Private session]

Page 4462












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4463













13 Pages 4463 to 4474 redacted private session.













Page 4475

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [Open session]

24 JUDGE MUMBA: So then the documents discussed during private

25 session will be under seal, just to make sure that the particulars and the

Page 4476

1 names are not revealed, yes.

2 Please proceed.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Sir, you said, on the 22nd November, in response to a question by

5 Mr. Zecevic, that you were not a member of the military wing of the SDA;

6 is that correct?

7 A. Yes, that's correct.

8 Q. Before the war, were you a member of a group of the so-called

9 Self-Organised Citizens of Bosanski Samac for the defence of the town?

10 A. Yes, I was, before the war.

11 Q. Are you aware that members of this group formed patrols which

12 patrolled the town, armed patrols?

13 A. If I said I was a member, it means as soon as I got one, on the

14 16th, it means I belonged with them. It means that my fellow citizens

15 from the reserve police force patrolled a part of Bosanski Samac.

16 Q. Are you aware that these people were exclusively members of the

17 reserve police force who patrolled this town, or were there other

18 citizens?

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. di Fazio.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm not objecting to the line of examination, but

21 it's not -- the evidence is not clear to me, and particularly what the

22 witness is saying. Is he referring to the TO or some other organisation,

23 something called the Self-Organised Citizens of Bosanski Samac? Is that

24 the same as the TO or not? And the Chamber would be well served to know

25 exactly what the witness is talking about when he claims membership of

Page 4477

1 this body.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, indeed. Yes. Can we have clarification by

3 you, Counsel, through the witness, please.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I can tell you exactly what I

5 meant. I meant the 16th of April, 1992, when I received a weapon from the

6 TO, I immediately joined the organised defence of Bosanski Samac, became a

7 member of that defence. The patrols that existed earlier, during daytime

8 and night-time, came from the reserve police force.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. And I have just asked you: Were you aware of the fact that there

11 existed a group of self-organised citizens of Bosanski Samac whose members

12 were included in the patrols without being members of the reserve police

13 force or the police force?

14 A. I'm not aware of that.

15 Q. Are you aware that your own party, of which you were a member,

16 drew up a list of your own members who, before the 16th of April, 1992,

17 patrolled the streets of the town of Samac as party members of these

18 patrols representing the SDA?

19 A. As far as I know, only police reservists were in these patrols.

20 Q. So to conclude, you don't know that your party organised any kind

21 of patrols?

22 A. No, I'm not aware of that.

23 Q. As you have explained, you were arrested on the 27th of August,

24 1992 and you were exchanged on the 4th of October, 1994; is that correct?

25 A. I think what I said was the 11th of August, 1992, and as far as

Page 4478

1 the exchange is concerned, it was on the 4th of October, 1994.

2 Q. I stand corrected. Now I would like to ask you a couple of

3 questions about the exchange itself. I think you have already mentioned

4 this, and I'm sorry about the repetition, but tell us again: How many of

5 you from Batkovici went to be exchanged to Sarajevo?

6 A. I don't know. Sometimes it was a smaller group, sometimes it was

7 a larger group. I think we were about 20. I think that included 12 of us

8 locals who were taken to the Serbian Sarajevo and over the separation

9 line, across the separation line. That's where we were exchanged.

10 Q. Were you taken to be exchanged by uniformed persons? The people

11 who took you to be exchanged, did they wear uniforms?

12 A. Everyone but the prisoners wore uniforms.

13 Q. And in the place, at the venue of the exchange itself, were there

14 officers present from both sides?

15 A. At the venue itself, in Serbian Sarajevo, there were Serbian

16 soldiers and the command. I was transferred by an UNPROFOR transporter

17 for 500 metres in the direction of Sarajevo, which was controlled by the

18 BH army. There I found some people in civilian clothing and some people

19 in uniforms.

20 Q. Let us specify. You found some people dressed in BH army

21 uniforms?

22 A. I mentioned Amo Masovic and his deputy Odobasic. They

23 participated personally in the exchange. They did not have camouflage

24 uniforms on.

25 Q. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber, if you know, who is Amor

Page 4479

1 Masovic; what was his position?

2 A. He was chairman of the commission for exchanges.

3 Q. On behalf of the BH?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You said you were transferred by an UNPROFOR vehicle. Were there

6 any other international humanitarian organisations represented such as the

7 ICRC, the European community, and so on?

8 A. The very procedure of my transfer from Batkovici and the exchange

9 lasted about 20 hours. In those 20 hours, I was brought to a prison

10 called Kula which was controlled by the Serb side. As far as I remember,

11 that's how they introduced themselves as representatives of the

12 International Red Cross. At that time, I had contact with them, but I

13 don't remember any details.

14 Q. However, as you mentioned to the Prosecutor, they asked you

15 whether you wanted to go to the other side. Did these representatives ask

16 you that, and where did this happen?

17 A. One of the many questions that was addressed to me was that

18 question as well. This was in the prison in Kula in the Serb Sarajevo.

19 Q. Can we agree that at the moment when you were transferred, when

20 the exchange was carried out, you had had about half of your prison

21 sentence left, the five-year prison sentence that you read about a few

22 minutes ago?

23 A. Yes. Yes, this rigged prison sentence, about half of it was left.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have only a few more questions, but

25 I think we should move into private session again because of a few

Page 4480

1 documents that I would like to tender.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, we'll move into private session.

3 [Private session]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 4481













13 Pages 4481 to 4486 redacted private session.













Page 4487

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [Open session]

11 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Sir, before I put the first question to you, I would like to say,

13 on behalf of my client, that he is very sorry about all the bad things

14 that happened to you and all the suffering you experienced.

15 I would like to clarify certain details in relation to an incident

16 that occurred with regard to your [redacted]house [redacted]. You have

17 already explained to us that you had engaged a certain [redacted], and

18 you said, if I remember correctly, that since you were not 100 per cent

19 sure that you would get the right kind of information from him for the

20 money that you had been giving him, that you took your wife along, as well

21 as Sulejman Tihic, in order to attend this meeting. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes, that is correct.

23 Q. On that occasion you received information from him to the effect

24 that this was done by Fadil Topcagic and Igor Rukavina, if I have

25 understood your statement correctly that that is what you said.

Page 4488

1 A. Yes, that is what was said to me.

2 Q. I am only interested in one detail now. This Igor Rukavina, I

3 need to identify him, because you mention him in your statement. Is that

4 the same person that the Serb forces arrested when you were at the meeting

5 in the yard of the factory Buducnost and accused him of being a sniper

6 shooter?

7 A. Yes, that is one and the same person.

8 Q. If you know, can you tell me: Is he a Croat by ethnicity?

9 A. I really don't know what he is. His father is an ethnic Croat and

10 his mother is a Muslim. What he declared himself to be, I really don't

11 know.

12 Q. Thank you. Just one more question with regard to this topic. In

13 relation to this incident, were criminal charges brought against any of

14 the perpetrators, as far as you know?

15 A. In connection with my [redacted] house?

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. I waited. [redacted] was registered as a private detective,

18 and he told me that I should wait for him officially to make a submission

19 to the MUP in Bosanski Samac, that he should submit a report to them.

20 That was the agreement that he and I had had.

21 Q. If I understand your answer correctly, it means that this report

22 was not filed.

23 A. As far as I know, no.

24 Q. Thank you. I would now like to move on to another subject,

25 briefly. In your statement, you mentioned that as for the existence of

Page 4489

1 the 4th Detachment, you heard about that towards the end of 1991. We had

2 several witnesses here, and we have also heard other information. Can you

3 perhaps allow for the possibility that this happened in the beginning of

4 1992?

5 A. Perhaps I was not sufficiently informed.

6 Q. Do you allow for the possibility that this perhaps happened at the

7 beginning of 1992 rather than at the end of 1991?

8 A. I cannot allow for that possibility [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 Q. Now I would like to move on to another subject, and that is the

11 [redacted], the day when you were arrested. You said to us that

12 these persons who arrested you at your house were a certain Milan from

13 Crkvina, and you also said that together with him was another man who

14 worked at the department store selling wall-to-wall carpeting but that you

15 could not remember his name. Was that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. This person, this second person, this other person, not Milan, but

18 this other person, was that perhaps a person whose nickname was Zvaka?

19 A. No. Later on, at the SUP, I met Zvaka, but that was not the same

20 person.

21 Q. And these two persons, when they arrested you, they took you to

22 the SUP; isn't that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. By way of clarification, we understand this, but that is the

25 police station, isn't it?

Page 4490

1 A. Yes, that's the police station.

2 Q. After that, did you see any more of these two men who arrested you

3 and brought you to the police station?

4 A. This gentleman who, to the best of my knowledge, worked as a

5 salesperson selling wall-to-wall carpeting at the department store is a

6 member of the police of Republika Srpska until the present day, and he is

7 working in Bosanski Samac.

8 Q. That is precisely one of the things that I wished to clarify.

9 They took you to the SUP, to the reception office at the SUP, at the

10 police station; isn't that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do we agree, then, that these two men were members of the police,

13 these two men who arrested you?

14 A. From the 17th of April, I believe they were members of the

15 police. Until the 17th, they were not members of the police.

16 Q. Thank you very much. At the moment when you were being arrested,

17 or after that, while you were detained at the police station, did they

18 ever tell you on whose orders they arrested you?

19 A. While I was getting dressed, they said on whose orders they were

20 doing this. They said this to my wife.

21 Q. Can you tell us on whose orders?

22 A. I do not remember the details.

23 Q. Was this perhaps on the orders of the then chief of police of the

24 SUP, Stevan Todorovic?

25 A. No.

Page 4491

1 Q. At any rate, you said that unfortunately you saw Stevan Todorovic

2 often there, accompanied by five or six more persons. Can you tell me if

3 you recall what kind of a uniform Stevan Todorovic had?

4 A. Several times, he wore a black camouflage uniform.

5 Q. And these five or six persons who were accompanying Stevan

6 Todorovic, were they policemen?

7 A. Members of the army of Republika Srpska.

8 Q. And what kind of uniforms did they have?

9 A. Camouflage.

10 Q. Was there any difference between the uniforms of the Serb police

11 and military?

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 Q. Can you tell me what this difference was?

14 A. The Serb police wore blue uniforms. The Serb military wore

15 camouflage suits.

16 Q. So to the best of your knowledge, the difference was in colour,

17 one wore green and the other wore blue?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Were there Serb policemen who wore green camouflage uniforms; do

20 you know about that?

21 A. I don't know, sir.

22 Q. Just one more question, we have got some information about this,

23 but you can confirm it for us. Was Stevan Todorovic chief of police, the

24 head of the SUP as it was called then?

25 A. To the best of my knowledge, there was a gentleman called Stoko.

Page 4492












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4493

1 Q. I asked you a very specific question: Was he head of the SUP?

2 But then I can ask you do you know who the commander of the station was?

3 A. I did not really go into their powers. For me, they were all

4 citizens of Bosanski Samac.

5 Q. Very well. I am not going to insist. If you don't know, you

6 don't know. Now, I would like to put a small number of questions to you

7 pertaining to Odzak when you went there to work. You already said to us

8 that this was the day when the mosque exploded and you said just before

9 that explosion you were informed about this and that you saw sought

10 shelter in a basement in a building?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. On that occasion, were Dzevad Celic and Zlatko Tiric with you on

13 work duty?

14 A. Yes, sir, and many others.

15 Q. Now I'm asking about the two of them, yes. And when you got into

16 that shelter there were a lot of people in that shelter, perhaps about 100

17 persons in that shelter?

18 A. When we went down into that shelter, there wasn't anyone there.

19 After that us, four men appeared, the four men I mentioned.

20 Q. Were there any women, perhaps, in the shelter where you were down

21 there?

22 A. There were four women who also came from my town, the town of

23 Bosanski Samac who were brought with me together in the same group.

24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand the last part

25 of the answer.

Page 4494

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, the interpreter said they didn't understand

2 the last part of the answer. Can the witness repeat the answer, please.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That were four women with me

4 and they were brought there to work together with us men in order to clean

5 up the SUP building.

6 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. I just have one more question for you. In your statement, you

8 described in detail, if I can put it that way, what Odzak looked like the

9 moment when you arrived. There were soldiers all over the place, the

10 tractors were coming in, some people were being brought in, others were

11 going out. Do you know about the population of Odzak, the civilians who

12 lived in Odzak before this happened? Had they left town with the

13 military? Was this an abandoned town?

14 A. Yes. As far as I know, two or three days earlier, they left the

15 town of Odzak. They withdrew in the direction of Croatia.

16 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I have no

17 further questions. I told you it was going to be brief.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

19 Re-examination by the Prosecution?

20 Re-examined by Mr. di Fazio:

21 Q. Witness, you commented in answer to Mr. Zecevic's questions that

22 you had an occasion to see Mr. Milan Simic's office and that it was nicely

23 decorated. When did you have that opportunity?

24 A. That was sometime in July 1992 when I was loading sand into sacks

25 near the memorial house and we dragged the property of Hurtic on little

Page 4495

1 trolleys in the direction of the memorial house, and we were placing those

2 sandbags on the lower floor of the municipal assembly, placing them on the

3 windows.

4 Q. Did you just look inside or were you, for some reason, taken into

5 the office?

6 A. We were taken, several of us, into the office because we were

7 assigned the task of taking sandbags from people who were giving them to

8 us from outside to make it easier, and I was one of those people, one of

9 those men, who were on the inside of the municipal assembly.

10 Q. Was Milan Simic present when you went inside the office taking

11 sandbags?

12 A. No. I never saw Milan Simic again after he issued me with that

13 certificate which was on the fifth or the sixth day of war. I never saw

14 him again in that office. I did find there, however, many of my townsfolk

15 who ordered us how to go about our work.

16 Q. How can you say that the office belonged to Milan Simic?

17 A. I learned that from those people that it was Milan Simic's office.

18 Q. Approximately how far from the SUP and the TO was the office

19 distance-wise?

20 A. From the SUP, this office which was in the building of the

21 municipal assembly, and it was actually another wing of the same building

22 about 10 to 15 metres, as the crow flies, across the street or across the

23 yard, there was the TO building.

24 Q. And you were asked questions, I believe, as to whether or not the

25 sandbags would affect sound coming into the room or into the building.

Page 4496

1 A. Yes. I was asked questions about that. I'm not a great expert.

2 I think that sandbags were placed as protection from shells.

3 Q. Thank you. Prior to your placing the sandbags there, that is,

4 before you started the job, was the building free of sandbags?

5 A. No. The first time, we were given the task to place those

6 sandbags, and there had been none on the windows, as far as I could

7 ascertain visually. We placed the first bags, and we continued placing

8 more sandbags, and more people came the next day to do the same job.

9 Q. Thank you. Mr. Zecevic asked you some questions about a document,

10 D23/2 ter ID.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Could the witness please briefly be shown that

12 document. And may I see the document itself, Mr. Usher, before it's

13 presented to the witness.

14 Q. Just one very brief question about that document, Witness. You

15 were asked by Mr. Zecevic if the signature of Sejdinovic was there on that

16 document and you said yes, and you can see, indeed, at the bottom

17 right-hand portion of the document the name?

18 A. Yes. Yes.

19 Q. What I want to know is this: Can you tell us if that is the name

20 of Sejdinovic written out in handwriting or whether that is his

21 signature? Do you understand the difference and, if so, tell us?

22 A. I understand. It is not typed here, it is handwritten. I had no

23 working contacts with him since primary school so I don't know whether it

24 is his signature.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 4497

1 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Mr. Usher. I've finished with that

2 document.

3 Q. You were asked questions by Mr. Zecevic, I think, touching upon

4 the role of Milan Simic and another gentleman named Jovanovic at the

5 Uniglas factory when you went to get your note permitting you passage past

6 the checkpoints. Is there anything that you saw or observed on that

7 occasion that indicated to you hierarchy between those two gentlemen,

8 namely, anything that you saw or observed that made you think that Milan

9 Simic was Jovanovic's superior, or vice versa? And if you don't know,

10 tell us.

11 A. I couldn't conclude anything about that, but it was Milan Simic

12 who signed the paper for me, and that paper allowed me to move around.

13 Q. You were asked a number of questions, both by Defence counsel,

14 Mr. Zecevic, and by the Chamber as well, by the Judges, regarding the

15 rent, the possible collection of rent held on your behalf, if indeed that

16 has ever occurred, at the municipality. Have you ever been told or

17 informed in any way at all prior to coming here to give evidence, prior to

18 coming to The Hague to give evidence, that rents were ever collected and

19 held on your behalf in Bosanski Samac? [redacted]

20 [redacted].

21 A. I was never informed. In contacts I had with my fellow citizens,

22 I never got information to the effect that anyone was paid, either myself

23 or the others.

24 Q. Not only information that you were paid, but I'm also extending my

25 question to this: Have you ever been told or informed that rents were

Page 4498

1 paid and that they were held on your behalf at the municipality, in trust,

2 so to speak? That's what I want to know: Has anyone ever told you that?

3 A. No, never.

4 Q. I will want to put some of the documents that were put to you this

5 morning now.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: And for the purposes -- for the assistance of the

7 usher, the two that I want to refer to now are D13/3 and D14. I dare say,

8 it would be wise to have both the English and the original. Can we start,

9 please, with D14. I do apologise. Can we start, please, with D13.

10 Q. Now, Witness, this document says that --

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours just bear with me for a moment,

12 please.


14 [Prosecution counsel confer]


16 Q. There's a reference in this document to prisoners of war, and I

17 want you to look at the names of the people listed there. Do you know any

18 of them? And I'm referring to the first page, where there are 21 numbers

19 with names next to them.

20 A. Yes, I know many of my fellow citizens.

21 Q. What about Ivo Lucic [phoen]? Do you know him?

22 A. I don't.

23 Q. What about the next one?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Okay. Just run your finger down the list slowly until you come to

Page 4499

1 a man who you do know, and I'll ask you about that person.

2 A. Yes. [redacted].

3 Q. What was his occupation in April 1992?

4 A. He worked in the electrical company until the 17th of April, 1992.

5 Q. Was he involved in any fighting prior to the 17th of April, 1992?

6 A. There was no fighting before the 17th of April, 1992.

7 Q. What about the next one? Do you know him?

8 A. Esref Zaimbegovic, my fellow citizen. He was the manager, the

9 director of the Uniglas company.

10 Q. Was he involved or a member of the HVO?

11 A. No. He didn't belong to any military formation, ever, not even on

12 the 16th of April.

13 Q. What background is he? Ethnic background, I'm sorry.

14 A. He's a Muslim.

15 Q. Just tell the Chamber quickly - read them out - which of those

16 men, continuing on from Esref Zaimbegovic and running your finger down the

17 list, which of them are Muslims.

18 A. Arminko Puric, son of Eso, a neighbour of mine; then Omer Nalic,

19 my fellow citizen; Ibrahim Salkic, my fellow citizen.

20 Q. Perhaps it would be quicker if you can tell us if any of them

21 aren't Muslims.

22 A. The names I've read so far, all of them, to the best of my

23 knowledge, are Muslims.

24 Q. Anyone there at all that you see on that list, anyone at all, that

25 you know was engaged in fighting or a member of any sort of military unit

Page 4500

1 prior to April of 1992?

2 A. I know, for all of these fellow citizens I've mentioned, I can say

3 with certainty that they were not armed prior to the 16th of April and

4 they were not members, because they had work obligation in the companies

5 with which they were employed.

6 Q. Can you tell us if any of them are old men, or were old men back

7 then? By that subjective question -- but let's start at, say, 60

8 onwards.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I just wanted it specify the age.


11 Q. Let's start from about 60 onwards, okay?

12 A. On this list, I don't see anyone who is older, that I know.

13 Q. Thank you. Turn over the page, and there's a list there of 21

14 names, and I think Defence counsel suggested to you that they might be

15 people of Serbian ethnic background. Do you know any of them?

16 A. Many of the surnames are familiar, but I've lost contact with my

17 fellow citizens to a large extent. So there may be many citizens on this

18 list who worked, coming to my town on bicycles and by car to perform their

19 work duty, but I cannot remember with any certainty which of the people

20 here were the ones. But that is easy to find out.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: I've done with those two documents. Can the

23 witness be shown documents that were produced to him this morning, D17,

24 D15, D16.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Do any of them contain particulars of the witness,

Page 4501

1 Mr. di Fazio?

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, thank you, Your Honour, they do.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: We'll go into private session.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: It would be wise to go into private session. Would

5 Your Honours just bear with me for a moment, please.

6 [Private session]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 4502












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Page 4503













13 Pages 4503 to 4534 redacted private session.













Page 4535

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [Open session]

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Thank you very much, Witness L, for giving

15 evidence to the Tribunal. You are now finished. We are now finished with

16 your evidence. You are free to go. But just wait for the usher to take

17 you out of the courtroom.

18 [The witness withdrew]

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. In the absence of Mr. Simic, which had been

20 indicated in the morning that he was not well today and he wouldn't come,

21 so we are not able to start with a new witness in his absence. I just

22 wanted to find out from the Defence. There is an indication that they are

23 not ready to make submissions after the documents regarding Variant A and

24 B were submitted to them, were given to them by the Prosecution, and I

25 just want to say if they can be ready with that as from tomorrow,

Page 4536

1 depending on what situation will unfold, we might -- I might ask for their

2 submissions, final submissions, so that the Trial Chamber can make a

3 ruling on that. I wonder whether there are any other matters that counsel

4 wish to raise.

5 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. I think my colleagues have something, but

6 just in addition to the first issue, Madam President, just to inform you.

7 It's just a technical matter. We didn't get the materials with us because

8 we didn't obtain any information that we have to discuss this. It's a

9 situation that is beyond our knowledge that -- with all these technical

10 issues this afternoon. So as of tomorrow we shall be ready to proceed

11 with this issue. Yes, thank you.


13 Mr. Zecevic.

14 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, if you -- if this Trial Chamber

15 pleases, there are two, actually, things I would like to raise. One thing

16 is a short clarification, because I was invited by this Honourable Trial

17 Chamber on Thursday to give an explanation about the law on abandoned

18 property. If you remember when I was cross-examining the witness, there

19 was a certain part which I explained. And I used my time over the weekend

20 to really clarify this position, and I wouldn't like to bring this

21 Honourable Trial Chamber -- or that this Honourable Trial Chamber

22 understands that I was misleading the Trial Chamber or my colleagues or

23 the witnesses. That is why I would like to give a very short

24 clarification on that. And then after that I have one motion which I have

25 to say before this --

Page 4537

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Present.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: Present, yes.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: So you can go ahead with your first point on

4 abandoned property.

5 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. Your Honours, if you remember, the matter was

6 raised about the law on abandoned property, and I have, as I said, I have

7 used my time over the weekend and found out that this law was actually

8 passed in February 1996 in Official Gazette number 3, and it was published

9 in Official Gazette of Republika Srpska number 3 of February 27th, 1996.

10 The amendments --

11 JUDGE MUMBA: So that is the current law as of today?

12 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, that's the current law.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Because this is 1996.

14 MR. ZECEVIC: 1996. There were amendments to this law in Official

15 Gazette number 29 of 1996 and 38 of 1998. So this -- actually, the text

16 of the original law has been amended to some extent.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Twice, yes.

18 MR. ZECEVIC: But the principle is just the same. Actually, in

19 accordance with the law, the municipalities were obliged to submit the

20 list of abandoned property --

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Now, before you proceed, when you say "in accordance

22 with the law," this 1996 one or previous --

23 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, 1996.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: 1996 one.

25 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. As of 1996, the situation was as you are

Page 4538

1 trying to explain.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: Exactly, Your Honours. According to this law of

3 February 1996, which is named Law on Abandoned Property, the

4 municipalities throughout Republika Srpska were obliged to submit the

5 lists of the abandoned property to the government of Republika Srpska, or

6 rather, to the Ministry for the Refugees of the Government of Republika

7 Srpska. So in case -- this property, according to the law, means houses,

8 land, business space, as well as cars, furniture, and practically

9 everything which is property. In case of business space, the ministry

10 have established a public enterprise of Republika Srpska for management

11 and administration of business premises. This particular enterprise,

12 which is a governmentally owned enterprise and it is founded under the

13 auspices of the government, is actually managing these business spaces

14 throughout Republika Srpska, including Bosanski Samac. What was in

15 practice done was that certain individuals, or the third parties who liked

16 to rent a certain business space, approached this enterprise of -- which I

17 said was governmentally owned and is under auspices of the government, and

18 signed a contract with this enterprise.

19 And this enterprise was entitled to receive the monthly rent for

20 the usage of this business space. The point is that this is different

21 from what I said on Thursday was that I believe that at that time, it was

22 the municipal authorities that were collecting the rent, but actually when

23 I got deeper into this, I found out that this is really a government

24 enterprise which was really managing and administrating all these business

25 premises.

Page 4539

1 That was the actually clarification which I like to make and, of

2 course, I wish to apologise for this incorrectness but really, Your

3 Honours, at that time, I really thought -- because I misinterpreted this

4 provision of the law that the municipality was obliged to do the lists and

5 I thought consequently or by analogy, the municipality was doing it the

6 rest of the contracts and the rent.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Thank you for the correction. Before you go

8 to the other motion, in case there are questions for clarification.

9 JUDGE SINGH: So actually thank you for your clarification,

10 Mr. Zecevic. So this question of abandoned property doesn't feature in

11 this case then?

12 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry?

13 JUDGE SINGH: The question of the abandoned property does not

14 arise in this particular case. It is not relevant.

15 MR. ZECEVIC: I believe it's very relevant, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE SINGH: What was the abandoned property that is relevant?

17 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, the abandoned property is the business

18 property throughout Republika Srpska.

19 JUDGE SINGH: No, in this particular case, concerning this

20 witness.

21 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, Witness K had the abandoned property.

22 JUDGE SINGH: Which one?

23 MR. ZECEVIC: His boutique.

24 JUDGE SINGH: You've heard his evidence.

25 MR. ZECEVIC: Sorry?

Page 4540

1 JUDGE SINGH: You've heard his evidence.


3 JUDGE SINGH: The boutique was given to someone, isn't it?

4 MR. ZECEVIC: For the usage, yes, on the basis of this contract,

5 but it was in accordance with the law of Republika Srpska.

6 JUDGE SINGH: But that law came into force in 1996.

7 MR. ZECEVIC: Exactly.

8 JUDGE SINGH: But in this particular case, it had been given for

9 usage before 1996. So the contractual obligations would apply rather than

10 the statutory obligations under an abandonment, and if it is relevant, you

11 have put none of these facts to the witness concerning abandonment,

12 concerning going to the municipality, telling the municipality that so and

13 so would like to use this property, and I will pay rent. These things

14 should have been put.

15 MR. ZECEVIC: I believe, Your Honours, that I did put to the

16 witness during my cross-examination the -- if you remember, Your Honour, I

17 was really going into the matter whether his ownership was disputed at any

18 time since April 17th until the moment when -- in the year 2000 he

19 regained the possession of his property. And that is actually, in my

20 mind, the most significant part of -- I mean the most significant issue in

21 this.

22 Also, if I may remind you, Your Honour, the -- my learned

23 colleague, Mr. Prosecutor, had asked the witness: Whom did you find in

24 your boutique when you came back to Bosanski Samac? And then he said it

25 was a sister of my client, and that has happened in 1999. And therefore,

Page 4541

1 it is relevant and it is -- I mean this law was already in place at that

2 time.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, in 1998, I believe, but it was during the time

6 when --


8 MR. ZECEVIC: -- after the law was initiated. That was the issue.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Mm-hm. Okay. And Judge Williams would

10 like to ask also.

11 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I'm just wondering, is the legislation simply

12 prospective in terms of giving compensation to those persons who own the

13 property but were dispossessed because they were in camps and so on and so

14 forth or is it also retroactive dating to the point in time when the

15 person would have been detained and taken from Bosanski Samac for

16 example?

17 MR. ZECEVIC: Actually, Your Honours, as this law was concerned,

18 this law was actually done on the basis of the Dayton Accord, and

19 obviously the provisions of the Dayton Accord do have implication on this

20 particular law as well as all the contracts which are signed between this

21 enterprise and the third parties who were using. Because in the contract,

22 there is a certain article which says that in case the legitimate owner

23 requests his -- to regain the possession of his property, this contract on

24 usage becomes null and void in accordance with the Dayton Accord. That is

25 one aspect.

Page 4542












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4543

1 The other aspect of this law, it doesn't really, in this

2 particular law, it doesn't say that everybody is entitled to compensation

3 for whatever reasons, but it is my understanding that in other laws this

4 subject was really principled subjects that they were dealing with. But

5 only in this law it says that at the time when this law was passed or

6 brought to life, so to speak, back in 1996, anyone who was using the

7 space, so-called abandoned space, the business space, anybody who was

8 using the space without the title was to leave immediately and would be

9 taken out of these premises by force, and the owner is entitled to

10 compensation and damages for the usage of this until 1996.

11 So that is -- I mean in that respect, this law really goes into

12 the matter you were asking me about.

13 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Just one small point after that. You are

14 mentioning business space, so what about residential housing space?

15 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, this particular -- this particular law goes

16 on -- I mean goes for all -- and the provisions which I was talking about

17 goes on all the property; houses, land, and all that. Only for the

18 business space, this enterprise was formed because the business space was

19 rented out. The rest of it, I don't think it was rented out at all.

20 JUDGE SINGH: Your case, Mr. Zecevic, is that the sister was

21 paying rent to the municipality and this witness's family can collect the

22 rent from them.

23 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, Your Honour, it is my understanding that if

24 this witness would ask the -- in the proper legal way the government of

25 Republika Srpska that he be repaid, remunerated for the rent during the

Page 4544

1 time while the rent was paid by the sister of my -- or any other tenant, I

2 believe he is entitled to gain this amount.

3 MR. PANTELIC: Of course -- if I may, of course, with a little

4 help of lawyer.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic. You can always assist the Trial

6 Chamber.

7 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, let me summarise one thing. I mean

8 we are going beyond certain -- we didn't intervene during the

9 examination-in-chief about these particular issues. Firstly, we have a

10 timeframe of our indictment.


12 MR. PANTELIC: So what is the relevance to ask witness about his

13 property in 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, and 1999. We understand the position

14 of the witness. They are entitled to present their situation and so on,

15 but simply, you know, to the normal level. This is nothing without our

16 indictment.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I quite understand your point, but sometimes

18 for the witness's sake, it is better that the problem is completed as far

19 as he understands it, even if it goes beyond the period of the

20 indictment. It's just for completeness.

21 MR. PANTELIC: I very well aware why the witness should be heard

22 here, not only about certain facts but still because of all these tragic

23 events. But still, we are professionals. So let me summarise the

24 issues.

25 During the wartime, according to my knowledge, in Republika Srpska

Page 4545

1 was -- the government of Republika Srpska adopted a decree on the

2 governmental level which is actually the same which is the law adopted in

3 1996 that my colleague speaks. So the Defence will be very happy to,

4 during our case and, of course, maybe during cross-examination, to inform

5 this Trial Chamber about this set of laws and also let me also inform you

6 that we are collecting the extracts from the court records of the

7 properties, from the registry of the properties of all these witnesses and

8 they are -- they names are through all these wartime listed. Nobody

9 depossessed [sic] them from the official court register. They were, in

10 fact, depossessed due to the fact that they left the area. That's another

11 story.

12 But specifically speaking about the property, that's another

13 thing, and we have here all these witnesses they are not professionals, so

14 they don't know to whom they should address, where they have recollect

15 their money or try to assistance. So to some extent it seems that we are

16 losing the control over the issues that we have discussed here.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no.

18 You see, Mr. Pantelic, the point is when a witness describes how

19 he was ill-treated, what he has lost, it simply ends there. The

20 consequence of not completing, if at all anything mitigates that loss, is

21 that the sentencing aspect, should we come to that, should there be a

22 conviction, will take into account the loss of the property.

23 MR. PANTELIC: Of course. Of course.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: So even if it goes beyond the indictment period to

25 explain -- for a witness to explain that, "This is what has happened.

Page 4546

1 I've now got my house back," I've now got whatever, it helps.

2 MR. PANTELIC: Absolutely it helps. But if Defence were in

3 situation to present certain facts with respect to the financial amount of

4 money collected through the government on behalf of the depossessed

5 persons, maybe that would be another angle of view.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, because it would go to, perhaps, the

7 mitigating. But to show that for a period of time they were dispossessed

8 for the criminal activities, we are limited, but to show that there has

9 been an improvement in the status of the witness who may be considered a

10 victim, it may help.

11 MR. PANTELIC: On the higher level, because we are speaking about

12 the governmental level. You know, local authorities don't have anything

13 with that.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: No. Whatever it is, as long as the victim or the

15 witness, who is a victim, has got an improved situation, regardless of

16 which authority makes that possible.

17 MR. PANTELIC: And the bottom line is that there are legal

18 possibilities and remedies that all of them will be remunerated for this

19 period of time. So I mean, this is the situation absolutely now in

20 Republika Srpska, as well as in Federation, Muslim Croat Federation, which

21 was the same. Not in Bosnia.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: That is beside the point.

23 Yes, Mr. Zecevic, you wanted to put up a motion.

24 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, Your Honours.

25 Your Honours, yesterday we received material by the Prosecutor

Page 4547

1 about the new coming witness, Witness K, and this summary which was given

2 to us contains new information which are not contained in the statement of

3 the witness, in the previous statement which we were given. A lot of this

4 information is not relevant to the allegations in the indictment, and

5 therefore we are making an oral motion in limine as follows --

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Let me first express my thoughts to you.

7 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, please.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution has given you information.

9 This is after proofing, do I take it?

10 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, I think so.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. di Fazio?

12 MR. DI FAZIO: I don't know. Yes.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner, you are the one dealing with the next

14 witness.

15 MR. WEINER: Yes. Phillip Weiner for the OTP. Yes. As a matter

16 of background, Your Honour, about three weeks ago, maybe a month ago,

17 there was some discussion - I believe Mr. -- Attorney Pantelic raised the

18 issue - of new matters being raised for the first time during direct

19 examination.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Examination-in-chief, yes.

21 MR. WEINER: As a result, for the last two witnesses -- last two

22 or three that we have handled, what we have done is when we have proofed

23 witnesses and gone over any new matters that have arisen, we have turned

24 it over. For Mr. Esad Dagovic, I gave them a three- or four-page letter

25 indicating all of the new information, which I think is fair and just. I

Page 4548

1 don't know if it's -- I don't believe it's required by the Rules; however,

2 it is the fair and just thing to do. That's what -- I know I would do

3 this in the United States with my own cases. We did this again involving

4 this case here.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Witness K, yes.

6 MR. WEINER: What we did do with relation to many of these issues

7 is we talked about the witnesses and we brought out more detail. The

8 specific allegations relating to Milan Simic which he's related to, which

9 are allegation of sexual assault, were described in the initial police

10 reports that have been provided. We have now given him some additional

11 detail related to those assaults, but those are the issues which he's

12 dealing with. I think he wants to file some sort of motion in limine at

13 this point. But I just want to say that we've done the fair thing and the

14 right thing by filing discovery, which is not required.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

16 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, if I may. First of all, it is not a

17 matter of sexual assault and has never been a matter of sexual assault.

18 It is extramarital affairs which were alleged in the statement.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: It's extra what? I can't understand.

20 Extramarital?

21 MR. ZECEVIC: Extramarital affairs.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, extramarital affairs.

23 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, exactly, and not the sexual assault. The point

24 is, Your Honours, we have -- we are losing so much time during this

25 examination-in-chief of the witnesses to the things which are not relevant

Page 4549

1 and not in the indictment, such as this. If there was an indication of

2 the sexual assault or whatever, I would assume that the Prosecutor would

3 indict or charge our client with this kind of behaviour, but he has not.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, but if the Prosecution is going to lead

5 irrelevant evidence, of course it will be -- it will not be allowed by the

6 Trial Chamber and it may be objected to.

7 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, Your Honours, but actually, we are trying to

8 save time for this Trial Chamber, and for us as well, that we make this

9 motion in limine before, so we don't get into these objections and rulings

10 of the Trial Chamber during the actual --

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Hearing.

12 MR. ZECEVIC: -- examination-in-chief of the witness.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: So what particulars are you objecting to?

14 MR. ZECEVIC: Well, Your Honours, we are objecting to three

15 particulars. First of all, we think that the Prosecution and witness

16 should be prevented from going into these particulars. First particular

17 is that we and the OTP have stipulated that our client, Mr. Milan Simic,

18 has been appointed to the post of president of the Executive Board from

19 May 30th, 1992. So everything which has any -- everything which goes

20 before that period is not relevant, in our opinion. On the other hand,

21 any evidence suggesting and regarding these extramarital affairs are not

22 relevant to the allegations in the indictment or are not a crime, and in

23 our mind, they are, first, not relevant, and are prejudicial to our

24 defendant.

25 The third thing which also is in the summary: Any evidence

Page 4550












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Page 4551

1 regarding defendants making exchanges or bribes to make exchanges are not

2 alleged in the indictment, and the defendant was not charged about that.

3 He was not charged under the Article 2. So these are the allegations

4 which appeared just in this summary this morning, and we would like to

5 make this motion in limine that we don't have to go -- to object all the

6 time during the examination-in-chief.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, because you consider them as not part of the

8 indictment.

9 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes. No. I do not consider them; it is a fact that

10 they are not part of the indictment.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

12 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner, unless it's very, very brief, we are

14 going beyond the time. Especially the interpreters are being detained

15 unduly.

16 MR. WEINER: I would be happy to handle this in the morning.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I think so.

18 MR. WEINER: It is our position that it is relevant.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We'll hear you in the morning tomorrow.

20 We'll adjourn until tomorrow at 0930 hours.

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.10 p.m.,

22 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 27th day of

23 November, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.