Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5751

1 Wednesday, 13 February 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The accused Milan Simic not present]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.32 p.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Case number

8 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Milan Simic, Miroslav

9 Tadic, and Simo Zaric.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We are ready for cross-examination of the

11 witness. Can the witness be brought into the courtroom.

12 The proceedings have been delayed because the courtroom was not

13 cleared on time. So that's why we are sitting late.

14 [The witness entered court]

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Witness, you are reminded that you are still under

16 solemn declaration. So you may sit down.


18 [Witness answered through interpreter]

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Who will begin? Yes.

20 Cross-examined by Mr. Krgovic:

21 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Dagovic. I am Dragan Krgovic, and

22 I am defence attorney for Mr. Miroslav Tadic, and I'm going to ask you

23 several questions. My questions will be formulated in such a way that

24 your answer could be yes or no. If you are not sure or don't know

25 something, you can say so. You can say, "I don't know" or "I am not

Page 5752

1 sure." I will try to ask such questions which will lead you to state the

2 correct answer, since both of us are speaking the same language, the Trial

3 Chamber has to wait for the interpretation to be finished. So I would

4 kindly request that you make a small pause after I ask my question, wait

5 for the interpretation to be finished and then begin your answer so that

6 we could make the whole procedure easier and quicker. Thank you.

7 In your statement before this Tribunal in November, you spoke

8 about the AS Cafe, and you mentioned that the Cafe AS was a place where

9 members of the 4th Detachment used to meet. Is that true?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Would you agree with me or do you know if members of other ethnic

12 groups also frequented the AS Cafe, just like they did frequent other

13 cafes and restaurants? So was it visited by members of the Croat and

14 Muslim ethnicities?

15 A. Well, I just wanted to say that yes, those members were also

16 members of the same paramilitary units, just like the gentlemen who are

17 sitting here.

18 Q. You're thinking of the 4th Detachment?

19 A. Yes. The 4th Detachment and other members of the special forces.

20 Q. Do you know that Sulejman Tihic, president of the SDA of Bosanski

21 Samac and the current president of the SDA of Bosnia and Herzegovina also

22 used to come to the AS Cafe?

23 A. Well, if he did, I don't know. He probably used to come there

24 before the war as well, but I don't know about that.

25 Q. Do you know whether Alija Fitozovic also came to the AS and he

Page 5753

1 was the Chief of Staff of the newly formed TO?

2 A. If he did, I'm not familiar with that. And perhaps he also used

3 to frequent the cafe before the war.

4 Q. Do you know that Izet Izetbegovic, the vice-president of the SDA

5 and a cousin of -- or a nephew of Alija Izetbegovic also used to come to

6 this cafe?

7 A. Yes. I think the same applies to them as to the other two people

8 that we talked about.

9 Q. Before -- I mean, before the conflict broke out. Immediately

10 before.

11 A. Well, it's something that I don't know.

12 Q. Do you know that Hasan Bicic, the owner of the pizzeria where you

13 worked used to come to the pizzeria before the war and immediately before

14 the outbreak of the conflict?

15 A. Before the war, yes. But immediately before the outbreak of the

16 hostilities, I don't believe that he came, because that's probably

17 something that I would know. Before the war, yes, perhaps.

18 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Counsel, I think we need a clarification. We've

19 got coming to the pizzeria, presumably --

20 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Did he come to the Cafe AS? Please clarify this because of the

22 transcript. When I asked about Mr. Hasan Bicic, whom I indicated was the

23 owner of the pizzeria where you worked. So the question was: Did he come

24 to the AS Cafe? So your anxious, does that -- is that in relation to

25 the -- his visiting of the Cafe AS?

Page 5754

1 A. Well, perhaps he did used to come before, but he didn't get there

2 immediately -- visit there before the outbreak of the hostilities.

3 Q. But did you ever go to the Cafe AS?

4 A. No, I never did, and I'm glad that I never did.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: I would like to remind counsel and the witness,

6 please, to pause. After the question, the witness should wait, watch the

7 screen. When the mouse has stopped, then start answering. Because it's

8 one person interpreting the question and the answer. So please do pause.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. I will pay attention to

10 that.

11 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Do you know that the headquarters of the 4th Detachment was

13 situated at the Sit factory across the street from the AS Cafe.

14 A. Yes, amongst other things.

15 Q. We will move to another topic that you also talked about during

16 your testimony on the 9th of November, 2001. On page 3990 in your

17 statement, you mention that when you used to go to town, you would see

18 Miroslav Tadic there in uniform. Is this true?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You used to see Mr. Tadic just in passing, I assume. You didn't

21 speak to him.

22 A. Yes, that's correct.

23 Q. And that was a few days or a couple of days after the 17th of

24 April, if I understood you properly.

25 A. This was before the 17th of April, and it was also after the 17th

Page 5755

1 of April. So they patrolled the town in uniform before the war.

2 Q. Miroslav Tadic or members of the 4th Detachment?

3 A. Yes, Miroslav Tadic and also Mr. Zaric and members of the 4th

4 Detachment.

5 Q. In uniform?

6 A. In uniform.

7 Q. Was this a uniform of the JNA?

8 A. Well, these were camouflage uniforms. The JNA no longer existed

9 there.

10 Q. You're talking about the period before the 17th of April that the

11 JNA didn't exist.

12 A. Well, you know that Bosnia was recognised as a state. You know

13 the dates. So with that date, the JNA no longer existed on that

14 territory.

15 Q. Was this a uniform that was used by the JNA previously?

16 A. Since they inherited everything from the former JNA, yes, this was

17 the former JNA uniform.

18 Q. Each time that you saw him, was Miroslav Tadic in uniform, as well

19 as immediately after the 17th of April?

20 A. No. He wasn't in uniform every time.

21 Excuse me, I just wanted to say this: Before -- when I saw him

22 before the 17th of April, he wasn't in uniform each time. But when I used

23 to see him after the 17th of April, and I saw him a couple of times, he

24 was wearing a uniform.

25 Q. When you saw him on the 17th of April, after the 17th of April how

Page 5756

1 long -- what was the time frame? Was that a couple of days later? Or how

2 many days?

3 A. Well, it -- I'm not -- I don't know exactly. It was a couple of

4 days later.

5 Q. Was -- when Miroslav Tadic was there during your exchange, was he

6 wearing a uniform at that time?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What kind of uniform?

9 A. Camouflage.

10 Q. The same kind of uniform that you used to see him in before?

11 A. I don't know if it was the same uniform, but it looked the same.

12 Q. You were exchanged at the UNPA zone.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. The other participants in the exchange, were they also wearing

15 uniforms?

16 A. No. But I would like to add that at the time of the exchange in

17 Dragalic, Mr. Tadic was not wearing a uniform, meaning that when we

18 stopped before the bridge in Bosanska Gradiska, perhaps he took his

19 uniform off. He changed.

20 Q. I asked you about the exact time of the exchange.

21 A. No. But during the trip to the place of exchange, he was wearing

22 a uniform.

23 Q. In your statement before the Trial Chamber on the 9th of November,

24 2001, you described an event which took place on the 28th of October,

25 1992, when your uncle, Ahmed Vukovic was killed. And you mentioned at

Page 5757

1 that time that he was killed by a shell. Is that true?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. The shell which killed your uncle was fired from the territory of

4 the Republic of Croatia; is that true?

5 A. As far as I know, no.

6 Q. The MUP building where you were detained was in the centre of

7 Bosanski Samac; is that true?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Next to it is the municipal building; is that true?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And there are housing apartments all around, residential buildings

12 all around it; is that true?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. How do you know that the shell which hit the MUP did not come from

15 the Croatian side?

16 A. Since you're talking about this, I hope that you were at the place

17 where this tragedy or this crime took place. So if you look at the side

18 from which the shell came from, it came from the direction of Obudovac,

19 from Zabari, so that's not Croatia. If you look at the side that it

20 fell from, unless the grenade -- the shell happened to twist during its

21 flight.

22 The other thing is that they knew in Croatia that detainees were

23 being held there, so they probably would not be the ones who would target

24 the MUP.

25 Q. That place was at that time under the Croat control, under the HVO

Page 5758

1 control.

2 A. No.

3 Q. Who was controlling that place?

4 A. The Serb paramilitary forces were controlling it.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

6 MR. WEINER: He's said now twice "that place." What are we

7 referring to at this point?

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. You want clarification.

9 MR. WEINER: In his question, "that place at that time was under

10 Croat control." and "who was controlling that place?"

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You want counsel to -- yes. I'm sure counsel

12 has understood the query by Mr. Weiner to clarify the venue being referred

13 to.

14 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. So you know where the -- that time the shells which fell on Samac

16 came from, that time when your uncle was killed.

17 A. If you look at the scene of the crime, the shell came from

18 Obudovac and Zabari. Zabari and Obudovac. Who controlled that place?

19 A. At that time, and it still is under the control of Serb

20 paramilitary forces.

21 Q. How far is that place from the MUP building?

22 A. Between 8 and 10 kilometres, as the crow flies. Perhaps less.

23 Q. So this is within range of the weapons which caused the death

24 of your uncle --

25 MR. WEINER: Before he answers that, I object to that.

Page 5759

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

2 MR. WEINER: They're now asking him about the range of certain

3 types of weapons. If they're going to have him answer concerning the

4 types of weapons, whether it's mortars or whatever type of artillery,

5 there should be some indication that he has qualifications to offer those

6 opinions or conclusions.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, counsel.

8 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] May I respond? Your Honours, as

9 long as -- on page 3998 in his statement of the 9th of November, he talked

10 about him serving in the army and how he heard the sound of the shell and

11 how he's very familiar with the weapon that caused the death of his uncle

12 and that he knows what it -- it is like to fire from such a weapon. In

13 view of all of that, that's the only reason why I'm asking that question.

14 If my learned friend Mr. Weiner agrees, I can perhaps read from the

15 witness's statement of the 9th of November.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: With that explanation?

17 MR. WEINER: If they want to concede that he's qualified, I'll let

18 him answer questions concerning artillery.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I'm sure the witness will be able to answer if

20 he doesn't know-

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. I can.

22 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Could you please answer, then.

24 A. Yes, of course. If you read my statement carefully, you would

25 have seen that I said that not that time when the shell fell -- I didn't

Page 5760

1 say what the millimetres of that shell was. I said that it was VBR, so

2 when Samac was shelled, you could tell -- you could differentiate between

3 the shells fired from a mortar, from a gun, or from another weapon. But

4 perhaps if you need further information, you'd better ask the army that

5 actually did the shelling. They would give you better information.

6 Q. When your uncle was killed, did you happen to recognise the sound,

7 and so could you tell which weapons the shell was fired from?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So which weapon was that?

10 A. Yes. It was a VBR, it was a multi-rocket launcher -- multiple

11 rocket launcher.

12 Q. From your statement, if I understood it properly, it seems that

13 Serbs shelled Bosanski Samac, which happened to be under their control.

14 Did I understand you properly?

15 A. Yes. But I would also like to say something important on top of

16 what you have said, whether this was done intentionally or accidentally.

17 But each time that Samac was shelled, I -- the camps -- because there were

18 several locations where they would shell -- at that time, they would ask

19 us detainees would we take the rifles from the 4th Detachment, from the

20 Serbian army, and then they would accompany that by saying, "So you see,

21 your own side is killing you." So I think that this was an intentional

22 plan, or a strategy, just like everything else was.

23 Q. During that period of shelling, the shelling was daily -- Bosanski

24 Samac was shelled daily.

25 A. The town of Bosanski Samac itself wasn't shelled daily, but the

Page 5761

1 environs were.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, please remember to pause.

3 JUDGE SINGH: Incidentally, was this the shell that landed on the

4 top of the police station where your uncle was on the roof?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. The shell fell on the roof of

6 the garage where my uncle was. So this was in the yard of the MUP

7 building.

8 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Were civilian targets in Samac also shelled?

10 A. Well, as far as I know, there was shooting. I know that the

11 Croatian side shelled. They wanted to hit the 4th Detachment HQ, but they

12 happened to hit a private house in that part. As far as I was able to see

13 from the camp, that's what I'm able to talk about. But I don't know what

14 was happening in town.

15 Q. So there was shelling by the Croatian side.

16 A. Absolutely.

17 Q. Frequently?

18 A. Not so frequently.

19 Q. As frequently as there was shelling from the Serb side?

20 A. Well, I'm saying it again: Croatia shelled areas under Serb

21 control that were outside of the town of Samac frequently, but they also

22 shelled the town of Samac itself. But as far as I know, on that occasion,

23 the shelling came from an area that was under the control of the Serbian

24 army.

25 Q. So as far as I understood you, Croats would shell the outskirts of

Page 5762

1 Samac and sometimes the city, while the Serbs shelled exclusively the

2 centre of town, where you had the police station, the TO, and other

3 facilities where detainees were kept. So this is your statement, if I've

4 understood you properly.

5 A. Well, the way you put it, it appears as if this happened hundreds

6 of times. But actually, the SUP was shelled twice, and the TO, so this

7 was during the time that I was detained. I don't know what you mean, did

8 they do the same things as the Croats or the Serbs. I'm not sure exactly

9 what you mean.

10 Q. As far as I know, the VBR has 16 shells which can be fired at the

11 same time, and the firing is very concentrated. So what I would like to

12 know is where the other shells fell on that occasion when the garage of

13 the SUP -- of the MUP was hit.

14 A. Well, who could tell? Perhaps the VBR at that time was loaded

15 with only two shells instead of 16.

16 Q. I'm only asking you whether any other shell exploded on that

17 occasion.

18 A. I know that at that time, close to the SUP, in the immediate

19 vicinity of the SUP, one house was hit or a courtyard of a house close to

20 the SUP and that also, something was also hit close to the Red Cross

21 building. So we're talking about two or three shells, and not 16.

22 Q. So when you fire one or two shells, then, this is a mortar,

23 because a multiple rocket launcher cannot fire only two or three. But

24 perhaps you know better.

25 A. Well, I know a little more than you obviously, because a VBR can

Page 5763

1 be loaded also with a couple of shells.

2 Q. On that occasion, when the SUP was shelled, you mentioned one man

3 who was there right away, and he was sorry about all of the things that

4 were destroyed in that garage that was hit.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What was his name -- what was the name of that man?

7 A. The name of that man was Pero Krstanovic.

8 Q. He arrived immediately after the hit.

9 A. Yes. I'm sorry, I just wanted to correct something. It says

10 "Stanovic" here, but it was Krstanovic, so it was not said properly.

11 Q. Well, the interpretation or the Translation Unit will correct the

12 transcript later. So this person was there immediately after?

13 A. Well, not -- not immediately after, but after a few minutes.

14 Q. The shelling of the SUP, where were the Serbs who were guarding

15 you, the prison guards, the staff who was -- were working in MUP, the

16 police officers?

17 A. Well, mostly they were in the yard, and they were in the SUP

18 building, in the camp building.

19 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would now like to

20 tender a map. This is a detailed town map of the town of Samac. During

21 the break, we received this from the land survey department of Bosanski

22 Samac. It is more detailed than the maps we have had so far. It also

23 includes the names of streets and buildings at the time when these events

24 were taking place, namely, during the years of war, 1991, 1992. The OTP

25 is welcome to use this map as well, and I imagine that they will not

Page 5764

1 object to its admission.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner, yes.

3 MR. WEINER: Could I have a few moments to look at it, or could we

4 mark it for ID at this time? I've never seen it before. I don't think

5 there's any problem with it, I --

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, you just want to study it for a few moments.

7 MR. WEINER: Yes. I just want to study it. That's all.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Can we have it marked for

9 identification, please.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. It's D27/3 ter ID.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, counsel. You can proceed.

12 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Mr. Dagovic, have you seen this map?

14 A. No.

15 Q. I mean right now. Right now have you seen it, just now.

16 A. Oh, yes. Now I have, yes.

17 Q. What does it seem like to you? Does it actually depict the

18 streets and the buildings as they were in 1991, 1992, in Bosanski Samac?

19 A. To be quite frank, it all seems very vague to me. I can barely

20 see it.

21 Q. Take a look at the actual map, rather than the monitor.

22 A. Oh, yes. I see. Well, I see two names here, one is Ive Lole

23 Ribara the other is Rasima Halilovica, so this confuses me.

24 Q. This is probably the name that came later. So we are talking

25 about the old names in this case?

Page 5765

1 A. Well, it seems all right as far as I can see at this point.

2 Q. Can you show us on this map where the building of the MUP is where

3 you were detained.

4 A. Right here.

5 Q. You can take the marker that is in front of you, and could you

6 please put a circle round it.

7 A. [Marks]

8 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] May it please be recorded that the

9 witness showed the location of the MUP building on this map.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: By a red circle.

11 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, red circle.

12 Q. Can you show us on this map where the River Sava is and the

13 boundary with the Republic of Croatia.

14 A. This is the Sava River, and this is where the boundary is. This

15 is where Croatia is, over here.

16 Q. Can you just put a little mark there that's closest to the line.

17 A. What do you mean?

18 Q. Can you put a little cross by the Sava River and the boundary with

19 Croatia.

20 A. [Marks]

21 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Counsel, the river surely has to be taken into

22 consideration when one's determining the boundary. This cross, I think,

23 clearly identifies where the land territory of Croatia starts. But if

24 we're talking, obviously, in international boundary terms, we have to

25 presumably take the median line, which is the usual delimitation point of

Page 5766

1 the river.

2 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] May the record reflect that the

3 witness marked the bank on the Croatian territory with a little cross,

4 that is to say, on the opposite bank of the Sava River.


6 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. May I ask you to put number "1" next to the MUP marking and number

8 "2" next to the other mark that you made. Thank you.

9 A. [Marks] Can I say something? You said that this was a town map.

10 I don't think so. This was just drawn by hand. Somebody did this. If

11 you know, Samac, and I do, and I can see this better than you can, the

12 cinema building is not here. Look at this little point here that I put.

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. It's not here. It's somewhere around here approximately. Around

15 here. That is to say, on the other side of the street. And at the place

16 where the cinema is marked here, that is where the veterinarian community

17 is, rather, where the veterinarians lived. This is the street of Edvard

18 Kardelj, that is the street where the AS Cafe was. And this is the street

19 Pero Bosic, that is to say, my street, so this is where the veterinarian

20 community is and this is where the fire brigade is. See, here? And the

21 cinema, therefore, and not there.

22 Q. So you are only challenging the cinema location; right?

23 A. Well, as far as I could see. Perhaps there are other things also

24 that aren't right.

25 Q. I consulted Mr. Pisarevic after your objection, and Mr. Pisarevic

Page 5767

1 says that perhaps you have confused things a bit, perhaps you are viewing

2 it from the other side?

3 A. Well, Mr. Pisarevic knows the town of Samac as well as I do, so

4 perhaps he can I can --

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

6 MR. WEINER: If Pisarevic was would like to testify, that's fine.

7 We're getting off base here.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I was wondering who was under

9 cross-examination and who was counsel.

10 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Actually, counsel, you said that this map is an

11 official survey map?

12 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Of the land surveying department

13 which enters various buildings and maps and the land survey register, the

14 land register.

15 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I was waiting for the interpretation to finish,

16 because I have another question, which is: If this is an official survey

17 map, I see no -- we're talking about stamps or whatever. There's no name

18 as to the organisation that produced it or the date, the usual things that

19 you would see on an official survey.

20 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we got this map from

21 our investigator. And if necessary, we are going to get an official

22 certificate with a stamp on it. The explanation we got was that this map

23 was done after the land survey was completed and that it does depict the

24 situation as it is viewed from aircraft and that names of streets and

25 buildings are included from the period 1991/1992, and then also the

Page 5768

1 amended street names are included as well. We will do our best to obtain

2 a certified copy of this same map.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I say something at this point?


5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have the map in front of me. I've

6 had it for five minutes now. I found another mistake. I find this a bit

7 unclear. How can this be a town map when -- look at this here. This is

8 where the pensioner's home is. That's not correct either. The

9 pensioner's home is somewhere around here, not here. So this entire town

10 map is not very good. Look at the medical centre. It is here. If you

11 look at the street of Edvard Kardelj, this is where the Cafe AS would be,

12 Mr. Tadic's cafe, and then the medical centre would be here in relation to

13 Cafe AS, not here. Or rather, the pensioner's home also would be here.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: So the witness appears to be disputing the map as it

15 is shown. So counsel?

16 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I tendered this map,

17 and I saw this on the actual spot, the Cafe AS and the cinema, especially

18 the position of the Cafe AS. It's exactly the way it's depicted on this

19 map. Of course, I cannot challenge the witness now. If he doesn't

20 think that the map is authentic, that is his position. But we are going

21 to provide a certified document concerning the authenticity of this map.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I hope that my -- that the

23 next question I will be answering has to do with the shelling. You were

24 going to tell me how a shell could have come from Obudovac when Obudovac

25 is in such and such a place. So all of this doesn't fit together at all.

Page 5769

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Witness, just wait. Let's resolve this problem of

2 the map.

3 Yes, I can see Mr. Lukic on his feet.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, during the break, during

5 the Christmas break, I obtained this map and I personally handed it over

6 to Mr. Di Fazio about a month ago, and he said that he would check out

7 this map through his own investigators and that we would receive

8 information accordingly. I indeed have spent a great deal of time in

9 Samac. I think that this map will be far more useful for all of us in

10 these proceedings, more useful than the map that we have been using until

11 now. And also, for these proceedings, it includes some very important

12 building. I can agree with the witness concerning the cinema, but then I

13 don't have to agree on that either. However, with regard to the key

14 buildings in Samac, I think this map is much, much better than the map

15 that we had been using and which was a Prosecution exhibit. We would,

16 anyway like to tender this map and then perhaps the OTP through its own

17 investigators can check this out and then they can say officially whether

18 they object to this map or not. I repeat that at the beginning of

19 January, I handed this map over to Mr. Di Fazio. Perhaps we can also take

20 advantage of the witness's presence here, and we can refer to some of the

21 locations that we had been referring to during these proceedings. For

22 example, where the memorial is and places like that, then the medical

23 centre. I think it is before the stadium, not after the stadium, like the

24 witness has said. But of course, I'm not going to enter a polemic with

25 the witness.

Page 5770

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, you're not going to give evidence. I'm

2 sure we all know how to get a correct map from the relevant authorities

3 for use for proceedings in court. Yes. So let's deal with the problem

4 properly, rather than you arguing with the witness.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I fully agree.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Mr. Weiner, the counsel has said this copy was

7 given to the Prosecution?

8 MR. WEINER: I didn't receive it. I will check with Mr. Di Fazio

9 at the break. I've never seen it before. However, to move things along,

10 I have no objection to having this marked for identification, which it has

11 been, and using it as long as the witness agrees to the buildings

12 represented in the map. If the witness agrees to certain buildings, let's

13 just go ahead and use it and move this proceeding along, rather than

14 sitting here and argue over admissibility at this point. Let's just --

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. That's what -- that's what I wanted to hear

16 from you. Because it's the witness who's being asked, and the witness has

17 said he's familiar with the town. And if the witness says that as

18 depicted this is wrong, he will put his own mark. And counsel doesn't

19 have to argue with that.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We have fully understood your

21 instructions, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: And as we have been promised, the certified copy --

23 because this is a photostat copy. Yeah. So the proper map will be

24 produced at later stage, so the proceedings can go ahead.

25 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 5771












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5772

1 Q. Mr. Dagovic, let's go back to the shelling. If I have understood

2 you correctly, when you spoke about the shelling of Samac, those two

3 times, you claim that the SUP building and the buildings around the SUP

4 building were shelled by the Serb forces.

5 A. Yes. I am convinced of that.

6 Q. Can you show us on this map where the direction of Obudovac is.

7 A. Obudovac is somewhere in this direction, around here.

8 Q. Could you please put an arrow in red in that direction.

9 A. [Marks]

10 Q. And could you please put down the approximate distance.

11 A. I don't know the distance. I'm not a land surveyor.

12 Q. Approximately.

13 A. Well, 8 to 10 kilometres as the crow flies. I don't know.

14 Perhaps a bit more, perhaps a bit less.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we also have that arrow marked "3". It's easier

16 to follow the map when you know what 1 is, what 2 is, what 3 is.

17 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. So the shelling of Samac, let us conclude this subject. There

19 were frequent shellings. In your opinion, a few times the Serbs from

20 Obudovac shelled Samac. That was under their authority, namely, the MUP

21 building where at the time of the shelling, as you had said, detainees

22 were as well as persons who are ethnic Serbs. Is that correct?

23 A. Sir, again, you keep saying "a few times." I said "twice."

24 When -- twice is twice. And when you say "several times," I mean about

25 ten times. I know about these two times. And that is when the SUP was

Page 5773

1 hit and the TO building, or rather, that is what they were targeting. I

2 said that the surroundings places were shelled. That is to say, where the

3 Serb military was.

4 Q. And then on that occasion, both times at the TO building, at the

5 SUP building, that's where Serb policemen were, people who were guarding

6 you; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you. Mr. Dagovic, we are now going to move on to another

9 subject. We won't be needing the map any more.

10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. You can remove it now.

11 JUDGE SINGH: Witness, may I just seek clarification from you.

12 Can you give us your main reason clearly why you think the shells came

13 from Obudovac.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if you look at the direction,

15 that is to say, where the shell came from, you can see that it came from

16 the direction of Obudovac. Croatia is not in that direction. Croatia is

17 on the right-hand side. So I put this arrow there, and that is where the

18 shelling came from. The roof of the garage and the door of the garage, it

19 came from Obudovac, not from Croatia. Had it come from Croatia, it would

20 have hit the left-hand side.

21 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Mr. Dagovic --

23 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Judge Singh, have you

24 completed your question? May I proceed now?

25 JUDGE SINGH: I was just going to follow up the last sentence of

Page 5774

1 his answer. Had it come from Croatia, it would have hit the left-hand

2 side. Left-hand side of what, please?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of the garage. Sir, I don't know

4 where you are now in respect of the garage. If you are viewing the garage

5 from the yard, then it's on the right-hand side. If you are looking from

6 the garage towards the yard, then it's the left-hand side. And it hit the

7 door, or rather, above the door. It hit the roof, that is to say, the

8 part between the door and the roof of the garage. Only if the shell

9 twisted as it was falling, which is highly unlikely.

10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Mr. Dagovic, let us go back to this subject. Is the territory of

12 the Republic of Croatia to the right of Obudovac?

13 A. It depends on the direction that you're viewing it. If you're

14 viewing it from the direction of Serbia, then that's the way it is.

15 Q. From the direction of Obudovac.

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like the

18 witness to be shown D14/1 ter. That is the map of the Republic of

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina where the surroundings of Samac can be seen. And then

20 the witness can show us some locations on this map.

21 Q. Can you tell us where Bosanski Samac is on this map.

22 A. As far as I can see here it is, Samac.

23 Q. Can you put a circle around this in red. Please use the magic

24 marker and put a number "1" there, please.

25 A. [Marks]

Page 5775

1 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can this map be used?

2 This is D14/1 ter.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: It's already in evidence, isn't it?

4 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: It depends what you want to use it for. Because if

6 it's marked by another witness, then we may get confused. So it's very

7 important that you clarify how you're going to use it so that we don't get

8 confused with other markings already on the map.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

10 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, since there are other markings, can he

11 place his initials by the circle he drew so we know which is his circle or

12 the -- as opposed to the other circles which are down to the left of the

13 picture, down towards the bottom. There's three other circles here on the

14 map already.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll put my initials there.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: All right, Mr. Weiner?

17 MR. WEINER: Thank you, very much.

18 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] May the record reflect that the

19 witness marked Bosanski Samac on this map, "1 ED."


21 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Can you show us Obudovac on this map.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Could you please mark that.

25 A. With a number "2"?

Page 5776

1 Q. Yes, and your initials.

2 A. [Marks]

3 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] May the record reflect that the

4 witness marked with the number "2" on this map the village of Obudovac, on

5 this map.


7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. Dagovic, if I remember correctly, you said that you were at

9 the front line, that you were carrying sandbags, digging trenches. Can

10 you show us on this map where the front line actually was at that time.

11 A. If you read carefully what I said, I did carry sandbags in the

12 town of Samac. I was carrying them to the Silo in Samac, actually, and I

13 put them on the embankment by the town of Samac. That is the one facing

14 the River Bosna. That is to say, that I did not go any further, to any

15 further front lines, that is.

16 Q. Do you know where the front line was at that time? Can you show

17 it on the map?

18 A. I don't know where the front line was. I was in a camp. I was

19 not at the front line.

20 Q. Do you know where the boundary with Croatia was at that time?

21 A. Where it is now.

22 Q. Can you please mark it.

23 A. Yes. So this would be the boundary with Croatia.

24 Q. Could you please mark it with a red line.

25 A. I can, but it's marked already.

Page 5777

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Because it's along the boundary of the River Sava,

2 isn't it? The witness has said it is as it is shown on the map. So he

3 doesn't have to mark it.

4 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Then there's no need for this.


6 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] May the record reflect, though, that

7 the witness did show on the map where the boundary is.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yeah, he was showing along the River Sava.

9 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Could you show us where Grebnice is.

11 A. Approximately. I can't see Grebnice on the map. But let me

12 take a closer look. If Orasje is there, then Grebnice would be somewhere

13 around here. So I will put a dot there. So -- and I marked it with the

14 number "3," so this is where Grebnice would be.

15 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, I would like to

16 note that the witness marked the place where Grebnice is, and he marked it

17 with "3 ED."

18 Q. Do you know this is where the confrontation line was between the

19 Army of the Republika Srpska and the HVO?

20 A. Yes, I heard that. But it's important. I would like to add to

21 that. I can indicate exactly where the line was. Because at that time

22 the Serbian paramilitary forces had control all the way practically up to

23 Orasje. They were practically at Orasje.

24 Q. When I asked you a while ago to tell us where the front line was,

25 you said that you didn't know. And that's why I didn't go on about that.

Page 5778

1 A. But you were talking about Grebnice. Now we're talk about

2 Grebnice. But Orasje is something else. Because when I was exchanged, I

3 was at Orasje.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

5 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I would ask that when they ask about the

6 front line, instead of saying at that time, where was the front line at a

7 certain time. Are we talking about April, May, June, or are we talking

8 about while he was doing forced labour? Prior to his arrest? After his

9 arrest?

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. You want a time specified.

11 MR. WEINER: Yes. Because this was a fluid-type situation. Thank

12 you.

13 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I said at the beginning that when

14 I'm talking about the front line, I'm talking about the shelling and I'm

15 talking about the time that the bomb fell, which caused the death of the

16 witness's uncle. So I'm talking about that time exclusively, the time

17 period in October 1992.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: [Microphone not activated]

19 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation].

20 Q. In October, 1992, Grebnice was on the front line; is that true?

21 A. Yes that's what I heard.

22 Q. Thank you. Do you know who was in control in Grebnice?

23 A. I don't know. That's where the front was, the front line. So

24 nobody could be in control if that's where the front line was.

25 Q. So the forces of the Croatian Defence Council were at Grebnice on

Page 5779

1 that line; is that true?

2 A. Probably. If that's where the front was, that's where they

3 probably were.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] We won't be needing the map any

6 more.

7 Q. Mr. Dagovic, in your statement from November 2001, on pages 4005

8 and 4006, you mentioned that you gave statements at -- to investigators at

9 the SUP in Bosanski Samac; is this true?

10 A. Yes. This happened on several occasions.

11 Q. Who did you give these statements to?

12 A. Amongst others, I gave a statement to Milos Savic and Vlado

13 Sarkanovic. When I say amongst others, I mean that I also gave statements

14 to the Serbian special forces.

15 Q. I'm interested in these statements given at the MUP to these two

16 people that you have just mentioned.

17 A. So I've already said that Sarkanovic, Milos Savic, and the Serb

18 specials. And all the statements were given at the SUP.

19 Q. While you were giving a statement to Milos Savic and Sarkanovic,

20 were you treated decently by them? Were they decent to you?

21 A. What do you mean by that, did they treat me decently?

22 Q. Did they apply force while you were giving your statement? Did

23 they use force?

24 A. Savic and Sarkanovic did not use force, but immediately prior to

25 giving the statement and after giving the statement, we would usually be

Page 5780

1 beaten, and then we would have to give subsequent statements. So if the

2 first statement was not deemed satisfactory, we would be beaten, and then

3 would be expected to provide another statement.

4 Q. How many times did you provide statements to Savic and Sarkanovic?

5 A. Well, I -- maybe -- several times. Perhaps three or four times.

6 I don't know.

7 Q. Did you sign these statements, as far as you can recall?

8 A. As far as I can recall, I signed three blank statements, three

9 empty pieces of paper, and three written statements.

10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

11 introduce into evidence the statements by this witness provided to the

12 MUP, as well as an additional statement given at the MUP also in Bosanski

13 Samac. One statement was given on the 28th of May -- the 8th of May,

14 1992, and the additional statements or supplementary statement was given

15 on the 21st of October, 1992.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: I take it the copies -- the Prosecution have

17 copies?

18 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] To be precise, we obtained these

19 statements from the Prosecution.

20 Your Honours, I see that the witness has notes in front of him, as

21 well as some papers, and I think that this is not permitted, so I would

22 like to request that the witness not be permitted to use such notes, and

23 could he please hand them over to the Trial Chamber.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I have some evidence here, but

25 it's not a problem. I will hand them over.

Page 5781

1 JUDGE MUMBA: He doesn't have to hand them over. He should keep

2 them away.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know, Your Honours, that I

4 was -- I am not permitted to use this, and I will put all these papers to

5 one side. And I apologise.

6 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps the Prosecution can look at

7 these pieces of evidence, and perhaps he can pass them on to us if this is

8 evidence that the witness has prepared.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: He has put them away. He has explained that he was

10 not aware that he can use papers. He has put them away.

11 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Mr. Dagovic, could you please look at the first statement --

13 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Oh, I apologise. I would like to

14 get an ID number, please.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: When you say the first statement, can you just

16 elaborate, dated, record on such and such a place, for purposes of the

17 record, so that we know which document we are dealing with.

18 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] The first statement was recorded on

19 the 8th of May, 1992, in Bosanski Samac at the public security station.

20 It's marked by the Prosecution, the English version, 00697113; and the

21 B/C/S version is marked 00532786.

22 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, we have received a statement. One is dated

24 8th May -- interviewed on 8th May 1992. That's the one you want to

25 discuss with the witness.

Page 5782

1 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] The 8th of May, yes. Yes, that's

2 the date of the statement. If the Prosecution doesn't have any

3 objections, we could tender that now so that then there would be no need

4 to give it an ID number.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner.

6 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, it's -- you have to introduce the

7 statement through the witness. I have to see what the witness is going to

8 say about it.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, because he hasn't yet asked him whether that is

10 his statement. All right.

11 MR. WEINER: Correct.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

13 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Mr. Dagovic, have you seen this statement?

15 A. Yes, I have.

16 Q. Could you please tell me if this is the statement that you

17 provided on the 8th of May, 1992 to investigators at the Bosanski Samac

18 SUP.

19 A. Yes, this is part of the statement that I gave.

20 Q. Could you please tell me if there is a signature on this statement

21 of yours.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Was the statement recorded or dictated in your presence, this

24 partial statement, as you call it?

25 A. Well, I was just going to say why I called it a partial

Page 5783

1 statement. If you notice, if the Trial Chamber would like to notice,

2 every -- the first part of the statement contains the true version of

3 events, and the second part contains a version of events that I did not

4 state. It's true that I signed the statement, but this second part of the

5 text was not part of that statement at that time, because as far as I

6 know, I never talked about Ibrahim called Ibela or Latif Rakitic. And if

7 you may recall, I already said that I also signed blank

8 statements. So they could have done whatever they wanted.

9 Q. Do you remember signing this statement?

10 A. I've just told you now, I never mentioned Ibela Salkic or Atic.

11 And each they are mentioned in the second half of the statement and not

12 the first half of the statement. So I think that this was added on later.

13 Q. Is it true what it says here in the statement?

14 A. Well, I've just told you now I would agree with you about --

15 partially about the first part of the statement, but I would definitely

16 not agree with you on the second part of the statement.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: And can we just have an ID number before we forget.

18 Can we mark it for identification purposes only.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. This document, the English

20 version is document D28/3 ID, and the B/C/S version is D28/3 ter ID.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

22 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I wonder whether we could clarify what the

23 witness means by "the first part of the statement" and "the second part of

24 the statement," because as we see it, there are four paragraphs in it. So

25 could we know which paragraphs he says are his and which paragraphs he's

Page 5784

1 contesting -- contending or not, please.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if we take the statement from

3 the 8th of May, perhaps I would agree. I would agree with the first two

4 paragraphs and not with the last two. So if you look at it, I am denying

5 everything. And then at the end, I seem to accept everything, that there

6 was -- it's mentioned here that some two months before, I had spoken to

7 Atic, and it's obvious that this has been added on. And you can see the

8 same thing when you look at it yourself.

9 In the first part, I don't admit to anything. And then in the

10 second part, I seem to be admitting to things. So perhaps it would have

11 been better if I had just admitted to things in the first part right

12 away.

13 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] It's time for a break. Should we go

14 on that break now and then continue after?

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We'll take our break as usual and continue at

16 14.15 [sic].

17 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

18 --- On resuming at 4.21 p.m.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: The cross-examination is continuing with

20 Mr. Krgovic.

21 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Mr. Dagovic, we stopped for the break while -- when we were

23 discussing the statements. The statement that you provided at the MUP on

24 the 8th of May, 1992 and the first part that you say is your statement is

25 correct.

Page 5785

1 A. Up to which part do you think?

2 Q. Up until the part that you're contesting.

3 A. Yes.

4 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, counsel. Sorry, the same point I

5 raised before when I mentioned that they looked as though there were four

6 paragraphs. I was look at the B/C/S text then. But now reading it in

7 English, I see that there are -- it's been subdivided to a greater extent

8 so, it's not simply four paragraphs. Would there be some way to maybe get

9 the witness to indicate in reading it the point where the part that he

10 says is correct ends and -- just to make it clear for us.

11 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. You've heard the Trial Chamber. Could you please read out the

13 last sentence indicating the last part of the part that's correct.

14 A. It ends: "I did not agree to the -- I did not attend the meetings

15 of the party, neither did I pay the membership dues."

16 Q. Mr. Dagovic, when you were giving that statement, the first part

17 that you've read and that you're not contesting, this is what you told the

18 investigators during the interrogation.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And the statement that you gave, you say that that is the

21 statement that you have in front of you right now.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Why did you sign the statement if this second part is not correct?

24 A. Because this was added on to my statement once I had signed it.

25 Q. Could you please read the last part of this statement, the last

Page 5786

1 paragraph.

2 A. I would like to clarify, because I can see that we're not

3 understanding each other. When I was providing the answer.

4 Q. I would just like you to answer my question.

5 A. Yes. But you are making me -- leading me to say things that are

6 not correct.

7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the Trial

8 Chamber for assistance to have the witness answer the question and to

9 follow my instructions.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, counsel. Witness, the evidence you have given

11 so far about how this statement was recorded and how you were meant to

12 sign sometimes blank sheets has been understood, so please comply with the

13 questions by counsel. Even if he asks you to read the part of the

14 statement which you are contesting, you should just read it. And

15 thereafter, you can answer the questions.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That's what I will do. So the

17 statement that I provided to the SUP, the last sentence reads: "I did not

18 attend party meetings or pay membership fees." The rest of the statement

19 until the end was added on.

20 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. I asked you to read the last passage of the statement in front of

22 you, the very last one.

23 A. Well, I don't understand what you are asking me to do.

24 Q. The last sentence of this statement.

25 A. Of the statement, yes. "I have nothing to add. I have read the

Page 5787

1 statement and have no objections and confirm it with my signature."

2 Q. "And have no objections."

3 A. Well, it's not quite clear here.

4 Q. Was this statement read to you by the investigator on the occasion

5 that you signed it?

6 A. Yes, that one part of it.

7 Q. When you signed the statement, were you forced to sign it by the

8 investigator?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you provide this statement voluntarily?

11 A. No.

12 Q. When I say "voluntarily," I mean that he didn't beat, you he

13 didn't threaten you, he didn't make any threats.

14 A. Well, I've already stated today before providing the statement, we

15 were abused.

16 Q. Please answer my question in the course of questioning.

17 A. No.

18 Q. While you were questioned, did the investigator force you to sign

19 blank statements?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Who?

22 A. Both Mr. Savic and Mr. Sarkanovic.

23 Q. Did you sign in the same place?

24 A. I do not remember.

25 Q. Did he threaten you?

Page 5788

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did he beat you?

3 A. No, he did not.

4 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

5 the additional -- or the addition to his statement. This is a statement

6 dated the 21st of October, 1992. It's marked, the English version of the

7 Prosecution, 00697114 and the B/C/S version is marked 00532785.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number for identification, please.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. It's document D29/3 ID for the

10 English version, and it's D28/3 [sic] ter ID for the B/C/S version.

11 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry. There's been a mistake. It should be 29

12 ter. I'm sorry. D29 -- it said in the transcript D28/3 ter ID, and it

13 should be 29, I believe.

14 THE REGISTRAR: That's right. It's document D29/3 ID for the

15 English and ter for the B/C/S version. Thank you.

16 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Mr. Dagovic, did you see this addition to the statement?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Is your signature on this statement?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you remember when you gave this statement?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Was this at the premises of the Bosanski Samac SUP?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did this addition to your statement, does it correctly state what

Page 5789

1 you told the investigators?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Do you mean that about the whole statement or only a part of it?

4 A. One part of it, the last part of it.

5 Q. And can you tell us which sentence begins, that part that's not

6 correct, begins with which sentence?

7 A. It will be clearer if I give you the last sentence of the part

8 that does state what I said. I would also like to state that I did not

9 participate in any way in the formation of the SDA and the text that

10 follows this sentence, I am not familiar with.

11 Q. Could you please read the last sentence of this statement.

12 A. "I have nothing more to say. I do not wish to read the statement

13 and confirm it with my signature."

14 Q. Was this statement read out to you?

15 A. Yes, part of it.

16 Q. Were you forced to sign this statement?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Do you remember where you placed your signature?

19 A. As far as I can see, down there on the left-hand side.

20 Q. In the middle of the page?

21 A. On the left-hand side.

22 Q. No. I am speaking about the length of the text. So sort of

23 around the middle.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were you told to sign it there?

Page 5790

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Was it entered there, the statement made by?

3 A. Yes. Probably since I signed it there.

4 Q. Do you remember whether there was any empty space between your

5 signature and the text that was typewritten?

6 A. I don't remember that.

7 Q. Was -- is it possible that there was no empty space? Perhaps you

8 did not hear the entire statement?

9 A. Maybe yes, maybe no.

10 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Counsel, do you think you could find out from the

11 witness how many blanks he thinks or recalls that he signed.

12 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. You heard Judge Williams. How many blank papers did you sign?

14 A. As far as I can remember, I signed three statements, written

15 statements, that is, and three blank pieces of paper.

16 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

17 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Were you told where you were supposed to place your signature on

19 these blank sheets of paper that you signed?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Where?

22 A. It was either on the left or on the right. But every time I was

23 told "sign here," and that's where I signed.

24 Q. Can we agree that this is not these two statements that you signed

25 as blank sheets of paper. These statements are not the blank sheets you

Page 5791

1 signed?

2 A. That's right.

3 Q. There is no stamp of the MUP on these statements.

4 A. As far as I can see, no.

5 Q. As far as you know, they weren't placed on other statements

6 either?

7 A. No, they weren't.

8 Q. Thank you. Just one more question. Did you place your signature

9 at the bottom of the page every time?

10 A. Well, I can't exactly remember. You can ask me, but ...

11 Q. Mr. Dagovic, now I would like to take you back to a different

12 subject. I would like to put a few questions to you about that. And that

13 is your exchange. You were exchanged in Dragalic in November 1992; isn't

14 that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. As you were going to the place of exchange, you were checked by

17 the members of the UN forces, or to be precise, the members of the

18 Nepalese battalion; isn't that right?

19 A. What do you mean checked?

20 Q. I mean they let you pass. You passed their check point; is that

21 right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. When you were exchanged, were representatives of the International

24 Community present, the Red Cross, the OSC, the so-called monitors, the

25 European Union et cetera?

Page 5792

1 A. Probably, yes.

2 Q. And you wanted to be exchanged; right?

3 A. I was forced to be exchanged.

4 Q. I'm asking you whether you wanted to be exchanged.

5 A. No, I did not want to be exchanged and I didn't want to go to the

6 camp either.

7 Q. Did any of the representatives of the International Community ask

8 you whether you wanted to be exchanged and did you answer them that you

9 did not want to be exchanged?

10 A. Nobody asked us a thing.

11 Q. Nobody addressed you at all?

12 A. No. This was just a group exchange. Such and such a number of

13 people for such and such a number of people.

14 Q. That is to say that you saw people who had come from the other

15 side.

16 A. Yes. Yes, they sat in our buses. They boarded our buses. I saw

17 that. And we boarded their buses.

18 Q. It was roughly the same number?

19 A. Perhaps there were even more. I don't know.

20 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

21 questions.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The next counsel. Mr. Lazarevic, yes.

23 Cross-examined by Mr. Lazarevic:

24 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, on behalf of Mr. Zaric's defence, I

25 will conduct the cross-examination of this witness. But if you could bear

Page 5793

1 just one second until I can prepare all my questioning.


3 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you very much.

4 Cross-examined by Mr. Lazarevic:

5 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Dagovic. I'm Alexander

6 Lazarevic, attorney at law. You have probably heard already that I will

7 be conducting your cross-examination for the defence of Simo Zaric. My

8 colleague, Mr. Krgovic, already said to you what we usually say to all

9 witnesses testifying here. So please don't misunderstand me. These

10 proceedings are being interpreted. So we try to make an effort to slow

11 down. So when I complete my question, I wait for your answer. You will

12 see that the question has been recorded in the transcript, and then you

13 can give me your answer.

14 I really made an effort to prepare very simple questions that

15 require simple yes/no answers. So what you do not say, please tell me --

16 so what you do not understand, please tell me.

17 Also, if you do not understand something that I'm asking, just

18 tell me that you do not understand, and then I'll do my best to rephrase

19 my question, and try to clarify this question, then.

20 Before I start putting questions to you, on behalf of my client, I

21 would like to say to you that he is truly sorry for the suffering that you

22 personally and your family went through during this war. Since he is

23 still not in a position to say anything here, he asked me to convey this

24 to you. So if you don't mind, I would like to start with the

25 cross-examination now.

Page 5794

1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note. Could counsel please speak

2 into the microphone. We have great difficulty hearing him.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, if you can move closer to the microphone.

4 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, I will try to place the microphone in the

5 right site.

6 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Dagovic, while testifying here, you said a

7 few things to us. I shall go into some matters that we did not perhaps

8 tackle in sufficient detail. You said to us that you were employed by the

9 Bicic brothers in their pizzeria. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you please tell me what your working hours were while you were

12 employed at the Bicic brothers' pizzeria. I mean, did you work every

13 day? Did you work Saturdays? Sundays? Until when did you work in the

14 evening? How long would you stay on perhaps after the pizzeria would

15 close?

16 A. That would depend on the customers. I mean, how many customers

17 there were. If there were more customers, then we'd have to stay on and

18 work longer. If there were less, then it would be different. But in

19 principle, we hardly ever closed before, say, 12.00. And I also worked in

20 shifts, so sometimes I would work in the first shift, sometimes I would

21 work in the second shift. It depend. I would also work weekends.

22 Q. So the pizzeria worked on Saturdays and Sundays also.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you. You said to us while you were testifying here that you

25 were a member of the SDA. I'm going to put a question to you now,

Page 5795

1 although I think that today during your cross-examination by my colleague

2 Mr. Krgovic, you did indicate to us some things that I would like to ask

3 you about. Are you aware of the existence of certain SDA patrols that

4 patrolled the town of Samac at the beginning of 1992 until the conflict

5 broke out on the 16th of April? Are you aware of that fact?

6 A. As far as I know, it is true that there were some. But I don't

7 know what you mean by "patrols." If somebody just drove around in a car

8 unarmed, I wouldn't call that a patrol.

9 Q. Well, I don't want to go into all of that now, to qualify it this

10 way or that way. Let's put it some other way now. Do you know whether

11 some members of the SDA went around town during the night with a certain

12 task to see whether there was anything unusual going on, whether there

13 were any movements that were unusual in town? Let me rephrase the

14 question that way, then.

15 A. I don't know about that.

16 Q. I assume, then that, you did not participate in any such

17 activities.

18 A. Since I worked, I had very little time to participate in any such

19 thing.

20 Q. Yes. That's what I assumed. I said that you had practically

21 indicated what your answer to this question would be, but I am putting the

22 question to you now, nevertheless.

23 Now I would like to move on to April 17th. The early morning

24 hours of the 17th of April. In your statement, you said that this was

25 around 2.00 or 3.00 a.m., so this was practically the night during the

Page 5796

1 16th or 17th. Nevertheless, it was after midnight. And then you said

2 that you saw military vehicles when you went out as they were moving in

3 all directions; is that correct?

4 A. Yes. But this pertained not only to that night but to previous

5 nights as well.

6 Q. If I understand your answer correctly, there were some movements

7 by military vehicles during the night, even before that night between the

8 16th and 17th of April.

9 A. Yes. By day and by night.

10 Q. Now I would like to concentrate precisely on April 17th, if that's

11 not a problem, and these military vehicles that you mentioned, then. Can

12 you tell me specifically what kind of vehicles these were. You know what

13 I mean, whether these were passenger vehicles, jeeps, tanks, guns.

14 A. I mean pinzgauers, or shall I call them jeeps, and there were also

15 trucks. That is to say, no passenger vehicles.

16 Q. Can you tell me specifically. We are talking about the early

17 morning hours of the 17th all the time. How many such vehicles did you

18 see?

19 A. I don't know the exact number. I only saw them. I did not count

20 them.

21 Q. On that occasion, did you perhaps see some soldiers or only the

22 vehicles as they were moving?

23 A. I saw vehicles. And now, what was in the vehicles, behind, I

24 really don't know.

25 Q. I understand. So outside the vehicles, there weren't any

Page 5797

1 soldiers.

2 A. You mean that night? You mean that night?

3 Q. Yes. We're talking about that night all the time.

4 A. I only saw these vehicles.

5 Q. You stated that after that, you returned to your home. Can you

6 tell us when you returned approximately to your home in relation to when

7 you went out. You said it was 2.00 or 3.00 a.m.

8 A. I did not actually go out into town. I went out into the yard.

9 So basically, I was at home, but I was in the yard of my house. So

10 perhaps this could have been a few minutes, not longer than that.

11 Q. So practically you went out only for a few minutes to the gate,

12 and you returned.

13 A. Yes, you could put it that way.

14 Q. And then perhaps -- yes, again, we are talking about the same day

15 and the same date. Did you see anybody or anything else on the streets,

16 except for those military vehicles you mentioned. You said there were no

17 soldiers, but was there anybody else?

18 A. Let me tell you. When I saw these vehicle, I heard voices, and I

19 saw somebody running up. At that time, I saw a neighbour of mine, which

20 surprised me. He was a good friend of mine. So I saw movements by

21 persons, but these were not large groups of people. Later on, it turned

22 out that inter alia this friend of mine was a member of the

23 4th Detachment.

24 Q. As for this subject, the 4th Detachment, we'll get to that later.

25 But I was just interested in this particular context now. That night had

Page 5798

1 passed and then the day of the 17th of April came. According to your

2 statement, you said that after break breakfast, together with Hasan Bicic,

3 you went to the pizzeria. Is that the way it was? You had breakfast and

4 after that, you went with Hasan Bicic?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Can you tell me to the best of your recollection what time this

7 was approximately when you set out for the pizzeria.

8 A. Well, I can't remember the exact time. But I know it was in the

9 morning. If I were to say that it was 9.00 or 10.00, perhaps I would be

10 telling a lie. Perhaps it was 10.30, perhaps it was 7.30.

11 Q. As far as you can remember.

12 A. I don't know really.

13 Q. On that occasion, when you set out for the pizzeria together with

14 Hasan Bicic, did you notice that Hasan Bicic had some weapon with him?

15 A. I don't know whether he had a weapon, but since he had a pistol

16 and he had a licence for that pistol, perhaps he had that pistol.

17 Q. You don't know, but you do not reject the possibility of him

18 having had a weapon.

19 A. I don't know. Maybe he did.

20 Q. Can you tell me what Hasan was wearing on that occasion. Did he

21 perhaps wear a uniform or a hunting vest or something like that, if you

22 recall?

23 A. To be quite frank, I can't remember really. I think he wore his

24 leather jacket with a Top Gun emblem on it. But I really can't remember.

25 Q. To the best of your recollection, a leather -- a leather jacket

Page 5799

1 with some emblems.

2 A. Not some emblems. A Top Gun emblem.

3 Q. Oh, I see, a Top Gun emblem.

4 You said to us that at that time you were very close, very

5 friendly with Hasan Bicic and Muhamed Bicic, and you were practically like

6 brothers, your brother and you and they. Is that correct? I'm talking

7 about that period of time. I don't know whether you can say that of the

8 present time as well, but we're talking about that time.

9 A. Yes, that is correct.

10 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Counsel, could you clarify with the witness what

11 a Top Gun emblem is, please.

12 MR. LAZAREVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I'm familiar with this

13 insignia, and I thought that everyone is, but --

14 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I apologise. But frankly, I'm not.

15 MR. LAZAREVIC: I will definitely ask the witness.

16 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Dagovic, as you see, Judge Williams would

17 like to know what a Top Gun emblem is. So could you explain this a bit

18 more precisely for this Court.

19 A. There was a famous movie starring Tom Cruise, and it was called

20 Top Gun, and these jackets were very fashionable then. So he wore that

21 kind of jacket.

22 Q. Can we say that this is a jacket that is supposed to look like a

23 jacket worn by US airmen?

24 A. I wouldn't put it that way. It was just a movie. Well, possibly.

25 Perhaps I could agree with you.

Page 5800

1 MR. LAZAREVIC: Is this okay with --

2 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I am perfectly satisfied. Thank you.

3 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, we talked about your relationship with the

5 Bicic brothers now, and we said how close you were to them. I have a

6 question for you in this connection. We have some information about this

7 already, but I'm asking you about what you know. Do you know that Hasan

8 Bicic had an automatic rifle, a Kalashnikov?

9 A. As far as I know, no. But I know that he had an automatic

10 pistol. This new 1999-type, so it could fire a burst of gunfire. But you

11 said a Kalashnikov. No.

12 Q. So you don't know that he had a Kalashnikov.

13 Do you know whether his brother, Muhamed Bicic perhaps had a

14 Kalashnikov also? We know that he had a hunting weapon, but I'm asking

15 about the Kalashnikov.

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. That day, the 17th of April, on that day either on your own or

18 together with Hasan Bicic, were you in the park, in the centre of town?

19 You know which park I'm referring to, the park in the centre of Samac.

20 A. No.

21 Q. And as you went to the pizzeria -- when you went after breakfast

22 to the pizzeria, you had breakfast with Bicic, and then you went to the

23 pizzeria. As you were walking, did you see any members of the SDA in town

24 then perhaps?

25 A. I don't remember having seen anyone then.

Page 5801

1 Q. We questioned a number of witnesses here with regard to certain

2 circumstances. I'm going to put some questions to you now. And of

3 course, if you don't know, just tell me you don't know.

4 On that occasion, did you perhaps see Ibrahim Salkic, nicknamed

5 Ibela, armed?

6 A. I did not see him then, no.

7 Q. I can infer from your answer that you perhaps saw him those days.

8 But could you tell us for the transcript when did you see him? A day

9 earlier? A day later?

10 A. I saw him later, but I did not see that he was armed. Perhaps he

11 had something underneath his jacket, but ...

12 Q. When you say "later," are you referring to the 18th, the next day?

13 A. Well, maybe the day after that too. I don't know.

14 Q. Did you perhaps see Izet Izetbegovic armed?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did you see a certain Ivica Djebic, nicknamed Crv, did you see him

17 armed on that day, the 17th?

18 A. I saw Ivica Djebic, but I did not see him armed. He was just

19 crying because they had killed his brother, but I didn't see any weapons.

20 Q. Can you just tell me where you saw him, Ivica Djebic, on that

21 occasion, that is to say, on the 17th.

22 A. I can't remember, but I know that it was between my house and the

23 pizzeria -- rather, between the pizzeria to my house.

24 Q. At the time that you were going towards the pizzeria together with

25 Hasan Bicic, was there any shooting in the town? Did you hear shooting?

Page 5802












12 page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5803

1 Were bullets flying? Was there any fighting on streets?

2 A. I did hear shooting, but I don't know whether this was fighting.

3 But when I did go to the camp, I saw that there was often shooting in

4 front of the SUP.

5 Q. Well, here I'm specifically interested on the 17th, when you were

6 going to the pizzeria, was there any shooting then?

7 A. Shooting was coming from the direction of the SUP, but I don't

8 know who was shooting or what was going on.

9 Q. Well, I'm only interested in the fact that there was some

10 shooting. There was shooting; isn't that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And let me ask you, when you arrived there, was the pizzeria

13 damaged? Were there any signs of fighting or signs of battle that were

14 visible on the pizzeria itself?

15 A. That time, that morning, there were none. But after that, after,

16 there were.

17 Q. Did you see on the day of the 17th any kind of fighting in Samac?

18 A. Like I just told you, I did hear shooting, but I don't know who

19 was shooting at whom.

20 Q. I'm just asking did you see any shooting.

21 A. No, I didn't.

22 Q. And that part of town, around the pizzeria where the park is and

23 the bank, that section of the town of Samac, did you see any armed people

24 there that day?

25 A. No.

Page 5804

1 Q. Your brother, did he leave the house at all that day, if you

2 know? And if he did, where did he go?

3 A. Yes. He went to the pizzeria together with Hasan and me.

4 Q. So the three of you went together.

5 A. Muhamed was also there because the pizzeria is about 60 metres

6 away from their house. I can't remember all the details right now,

7 whether he entered the pizzeria, whether he went back, or whether he was

8 just in front of the pizzeria, but I know that he was with us.

9 Q. In the course of this conversation, we just mentioned Muhamed and

10 Hasan Bicic. So I just wanted to ask you something about their families.

11 Were they in Samac at that time?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Do you know perhaps when they left Samac, the families of Hasan

14 and Muhamed Bicic?

15 A. They left immediately before the outbreak of the war. But I don't

16 know exactly when.

17 Q. Can you please tell me, the night between the 17th and the 18th,

18 where were you?

19 A. In the basement.

20 Q. Of your house, or were you in some other basement? We have to

21 clarify that.

22 A. In the basement, or in the cellar of my house.

23 Q. Was anyone else with you there at that time, in the cellar?

24 A. My uncle, my brother's -- my father's brother was there as well.

25 Q. And your brother, your mother, your father, were they there as

Page 5805

1 well?

2 A. Yes. I meant that together with all of us, he was there too.

3 Q. I think that it's all clear for the transcript now, Witness.

4 A. Yes. You're right.

5 Q. Now I would like to move to the 18th of April. If I understood

6 your statement correctly - because sometimes some dates or some things

7 have been recorded in an unclear way - so the 18th is the day that the

8 army came in front of your house to collect weapons. Was that on the

9 18th?

10 A. Well, I wouldn't agree with you, because I think I stated in that

11 statement that this happened during those two days. Perhaps it was the

12 18th or the 19th or even the 20th. But it happened during those couple of

13 days.

14 Q. Well, we've had two dates here that were mentioned by witnesses

15 who have been questioned so far. So perhaps we could try to establish the

16 correct date. I assume that your answer suggests that you don't know that

17 this was perhaps on the 19th. What I'm interested in is to know whether

18 this was on the 17th. Was that on the day that you went to the pizzeria

19 with the Bicic brothers?

20 A. I think that this was not on the 17th. But weapons were collected

21 over several days. And if I may be allowed to add, it was announced on

22 the radio that weapons should be taken out onto the streets and that

23 vehicles will be coming by to collect those weapons, and if some people --

24 and then that's what happened, people placed the weapons outside, and then

25 members of the 4th Detachment came, and they collected the weapons.

Page 5806

1 Q. So if I've understood you properly, it was not on the 17th that

2 all this happened.

3 Could you please tell me the approximate time when the army

4 arrived in front of your house, as far as you can recollect. What time

5 did they arrive at your house?

6 A. If I'm not mistaken, it was in the morning.

7 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, I would like now to offer one

8 photograph. This is the photograph of the house of Mr. Esad Dagovic. I

9 would like to have an ID number for it so far. This photograph --

10 JUDGE MUMBA: When was it taken? When was it taken?

11 MR. LAZAREVIC: This photograph was taken during this recess. So

12 it has been taken maybe some ten days ago. And we brought them with us

13 when we arrived in The Hague. I multiplied these photographs, and I

14 already gave copies to our colleagues from the Prosecutor.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

16 MR. WEINER: If it's a fair and accurate representation of what

17 the house looked like in 1992 according to the witness, that's fine.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Anyway, you have a copy of the photograph.

19 Yes, it can be shown to the witness.

20 MR. LAZAREVIC: Of course I will wait for the witness to confirm

21 or to deny that this is this picture, and then I will ask it to be

22 tendered into evidence.

23 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, we have several photographs here. It

24 looks like four.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. The usher will show you which one, so you'll

Page 5807

1 see whether or not you have a similar copy.

2 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, I believe that it would be in the

3 best interest of the defendants that we put this photograph on the ELMO so

4 they can see what --

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can you just wait a minute.

6 Has the Prosecutor seen the copy that the witness is looking at?

7 MR. WEINER: Just a moment, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have an ID number, please, a number for

9 identification.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. It's D15/4 ID.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Counsel, you can go ahead and ask the witness

12 your questions.

13 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Dagovic, the question is very simple: Is

15 this your house in Samac?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. In April 1992, it was there in the same place and nothing has

18 changed since then in this regard.

19 A. Yes, that's true, except it was in much better condition.

20 Q. Probably.

21 MR. LAZAREVIC: The witness has identified this photograph as a

22 photograph of his house and also confirmed that during 1992, this

23 photograph -- this house was also in the same position. I would like to

24 tender it into evidence, instead of ID number.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Any objection, Mr. Weiner?

Page 5808

1 MR. WEINER: No objection.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: I take it it will retain the same number?

3 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: So it will be Exhibit D15/4.

5 THE REGISTRAR: That's right. Thank you.

6 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. You said that it was in a better condition, but I wanted to ask

8 you: Was it in -- was the facade in this same state, or was the facade

9 ever finished?

10 A. No. It was never finished completely. So basically, it had

11 drainpipes, but -- which are not there any more. But it was more or less

12 in the same state on the outside as it is now.

13 Q. Mr. Dagovic, if I'm not mistaken, your house is in a yard. It's

14 inside, situated inside a yard; is this correct?

15 A. Yes, that's true. And it has a view out on to the street.

16 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, now I would like to offer another

17 photograph. It's also a photograph that was already given to the -- my

18 colleagues from the OTP. And this is also taken during the recess -- all

19 the four photographs that I have have the same story, actually.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: And it is a photograph of what?

21 MR. LAZAREVIC: This is a photograph of the front house, I

22 believe. Of course I'll have to wait the witness to confirm that. And

23 this is actually his uncle's or his father's brother's house, that runs

24 the street.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Yes. Can they be shown to the witness,

Page 5809

1 and can we have copies.

2 MR. WEINER: Your Honour --

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

4 MR. WEINER: We might want to save time. We might not even have

5 to place an ID number on the photographs now and just see if the witness

6 indicates they are a fair and accurate representation, we can just give it

7 a straight evidentiary number.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Can we just -- yes. Can we see them.

9 Yes, counsel, you can go ahead with your questions.

10 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Dagovic, is this your uncle's house?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In 1992, it was in the same place where it is today.

14 A. Yes.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have an exhibit number.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. It's Exhibit D16/4.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

18 JUDGE SINGH: Sorry, Mr. Lazarevic, you mean in the same state or

19 the same place? I mean, the house has got to be in the same place.

20 MR. LAZAREVIC: Well, I understand Your Honour's concern in this

21 regard, but this is not always necessary. And my next line of questioning

22 will show why am I referring to that.

23 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Dagovic, this photograph of your uncle's

24 house, can we agree that your uncle's house is practically one that faces

25 the street, that looks out directly onto the street?

Page 5810

1 A. No, we cannot agree on that.

2 Q. On this picture, I see the street, and I don't see any other

3 building between the street and the house. And this is why I'm asking you

4 whether that house faces directly onto the street.

5 A. You've taken a nice photograph of the picture from only one side.

6 But I can provide the Chamber with another photograph where you can see

7 that my house -- my house from another angle. So my house is here, in

8 this area, and it also faces the street, because what you're trying to say

9 is that this house is in front of my house, but you can see that behind

10 this house, there isn't another house. My house is here, next to this

11 house, and it's visible. The windows are looking out on to the street.

12 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. To offer perhaps to the witness to make at

13 least once sketch of this yard and the house where his house was located

14 and where his uncle's house was located, so we could maybe understand

15 better the position of this house.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. I think the other problem is when you say the

17 house faces the street, the impression I have normally would be the front

18 door of the house looks on to the street. Now, when I look at this house,

19 I can't see a door. I can see only windows. Maybe that's where the

20 problem is also.

21 JUDGE SINGH: I think perhaps you may want to suggest to him that

22 the house abuts on the street, abuts.

23 MR. LAZAREVIC: Maybe that's the better expression. I thank you

24 Your Honour.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: So you want the witness to draw -- to have a sketch?

Page 5811

1 MR. LAZAREVIC: Well, if it doesn't give him a problem.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: If he can.

3 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Mr. Dagovic, you were about to explain that to us. So if these

5 photographs do not indicate the situation in the best possible way, could

6 you please then sketch that on the piece of paper. So if you can sketch

7 the plot, and then sketch your house and your uncle's house, so that we

8 would get a true picture. Is that a problem for you?

9 A. Yes. I will do that, in any case, but I would also like to

10 suggest to the Trial Chamber that I provide photographs where you can see

11 the view from my windows on to the street and the view from the street of

12 my house, because they show different angles.

13 Q. As far as I know, you are not in a position to personally submit

14 evidence before this Chamber. This is something that is up to the

15 Prosecution, so they're the only ones who can do that.

16 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Lazarevic, I'm just a little bit puzzled as

17 to where we're going with this line of questioning. Is it -- what's the

18 relevance as to whether a house is looking on to the street and this and

19 that? I mean, I -- I'm just puzzled.

20 MR. LAZAREVIC: Well, Your Honours, if you don't this mind, during

21 this line of examination, after showing two more photographs, I will go

22 with this line of examination, it has something to do about the arrival of

23 the army and the moment when he could possibly see that and ...


25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will sketch to the

Page 5812

1 best of my ability, and if necessary, I can also provide photographs

2 indicating the different position.

3 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Could you now, please, mark with the letter "A" the house of your

5 uncle and with the letter "B" your house.

6 A. [Marks]

7 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, may the record reflect that the

8 witness indicated with letter "A" the position of his house and with

9 letter -- of his uncle's house, sorry, and with letter "B" his own house.


11 MR. LAZAREVIC: If I might have a number for this because I would

12 like to tender it into evidence.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: There is nothing else you want him to discuss on

14 this sketch, before we -- because it has to be handed to the registry

15 assistant.

16 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours --

17 JUDGE MUMBA: You are through with the sketch?

18 MR. LAZAREVIC: I believe that I already said everything. But

19 maybe if only -- or if we could have some indication about how far from

20 the beginning of the street and how deep in this space is his own house

21 located.

22 A. About 10 metres from the street, at the most.

23 MR. LAZAREVIC: I have no other questions in regard to this sheet

24 that the witness --

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the witness indicate with the letter "C" where

Page 5813

1 the street is, because I can't -- I don't understand Serbo-Croat, but I

2 can see the same writing in two places.

3 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, it is in B/C/S. Yes.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. So that's where the street is, and he has

5 said his house is about 10 metres away.

6 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

7 MR. LAZAREVIC: We don't have a number for this sheet.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So can we have the sketch given to the

9 registry.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the sketch given to the registry

12 assistant, for purposes of marking it.

13 I believe the Prosecution has no objection to having it entered

14 into evidence?

15 MR. WEINER: Yes. No objection. No objection.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Can we have the exhibit number, please.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. It's Exhibit D17/4.

18 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Mr. Dagovic, could you please look at the previous photograph,

20 D16/4, and use the pointer to show us on the right side, if I understood

21 you properly, there is a fence there; isn't that right? And according to

22 your sketch, this is where your house should be. So please, could you

23 show that to us.

24 A. Yes. You are right. My house is right here, in between. This is

25 the fence from my uncle's house. This is my fence. This is the entrance

Page 5814

1 to my house, which goes behind this house. And this is where my house

2 was, right here. And it was facing the street. So between this house and

3 the other house was my house.

4 There was a house there, which has been knocked down now, and you

5 can see the fence and the end of the yard, and this is where my house was,

6 which faced the street.

7 Q. This house that was demolished, that used to stand there, this is

8 what I wanted to ask you about. There, on the right side, can you confirm

9 that there was a house there once, a house owned by Anto Bauman, and this

10 house no longer stands there.

11 A. The house did not belong to Bauman, Anto. It belonged to Lovro.

12 And before that, it belonged to my grandfather who sold it to Lovro and

13 his wife.

14 Q. So now, we're talking about 1992. And that house was still

15 standing right there.

16 A. Yes, you are right.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Although we have only a photograph, maybe on the

18 photograph itself the witness can mark with a red mark an "X" where the

19 house which is now demolished used to be, to clear the record.

20 Yes, Mr. Weiner.

21 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, they took these photographs, and it

22 seems take took photographs from every angle but from the street into that

23 house. And I was just wondering, do they have a photograph of what would

24 have been the proper picture to take, and if they do --

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Because the counsel said they took the photographs

Page 5815

1 during the recess, that is December/January.

2 MR. WEINER: And it's of an angle straight on to the uncle's

3 house, to the left of the uncle's house. But they didn't stake a picture

4 from the street to the right of the uncle's house, which is where this

5 witness's house is. And I was wondering, do they have one, which would

6 make things much easier.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm sure counsel can answer that. Mr. Lazarevic?

8 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, our investigator did the best they

9 could. They didn't have some sort of instructions from us from this

10 angle, from this angle, or another angle. We just wanted them to

11 photograph the situation that is now.

12 As soon as we got these photographs, they told us that they know

13 that there was a certain house that was -- that existed in 1992, but now

14 it's destroyed, and so this is the fact that I asked the witness about.

15 Unfortunately, I cannot have a picture made in 1992 to show this.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: It's all right.

17 MR. LAZAREVIC: And for this reason.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I don't think there is much of a problem,

19 because on D16/4, beside the uncle's house where he indicated the fence,

20 and he did point with a pointer on the ELMO where the house used to be,

21 which has since been demolished. That's when I said they can just mark

22 on the photograph where the house used to be with an "X."

23 MR. LAZAREVIC: That's what I thought also.

24 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic, going back to the question I

25 raised as to relevance, and you indicated what it was, whether the house

Page 5816

1 of the witness whether there would be a view of the street and the

2 vehicles and so on. So thinking of what Mr. Weiner has just said, I mean,

3 you probably can't see very clearly me holding the photograph up here, but

4 one would have thought your photographer would have not only stood on the

5 street and taken it from that angle, but would have walked up the street

6 and taken the photograph looking in through the gap.

7 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, we have two more photographs that we

8 believe will show exactly what is the position of this house, looking from

9 the street. Because these are photographs of the crossroads that is near

10 the street and exactly shows --

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can they be shown to the witness. Perhaps

12 they will clear the picture.

13 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, they will be shown to the witness, and he

14 will indicate. Yes. Of course I will do that, but Your Honour, you

15 already have ordered the witness to point --

16 JUDGE MUMBA: No. Maybe it won't be necessary if those

17 photographs are showed -- if the photographs you have are shown to the

18 witness. Maybe it won't be necessary.

19 May I ask, Mr. Lazarevic, I'm wondering also, following on Judge

20 Williams' question, are you disputing his evidence that he saw army

21 vehicles on that evening?

22 MR. LAZAREVIC: No, Your Honour. This is not the question about

23 the early morning of 17 of April. It --

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. What is it going to? What is the relevance?

25 Maybe you should explain.

Page 5817

1 MR. LAZAREVIC: On 18, or maybe 19.


3 MR. LAZAREVIC: On 18 or maybe 19 of April, the army came in front

4 of his house to collect weapons. And this is what we are talking about

5 now. And there are some facts that I actually was speaking about with my

6 client, and he informed me about some things that he doesn't find that

7 were exact. And so for this reason, I want to challenge this -- this part

8 of testimony.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner. You are on your feet.

10 MR. WEINER: I was just going to say these are two more pictures

11 from the left -- to the left. And not only to the left but almost angular

12 to the left that, it still doesn't offer us any help. Because the picture

13 we need is from the house -- from actually just of the right of the

14 father -- the uncle's house inside, towards this gentleman's home.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: The witness's house.

16 JUDGE SINGH: Mr. Lazarevic, I think -- the witness --

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, would you let me say

18 something?

19 JUDGE SINGH: Well, no, the witness says that he has a picture

20 that can help. I mean, if he says that that's his house, maybe you will

21 want to wish -- you may wish to look at it at least, and then make a

22 decision. If it can help quickly, then all right.

23 MR. LAZAREVIC: Of course, Your Honour. I will definitely take it

24 into consideration if this is it is. But what I would suggest is we don't

25 have pictures from 1992, of course unless the witness has it with him, and

Page 5818

1 I would be glad to check it with him and with the Prosecutors, with my

2 colleagues, to see if this is a photograph from 1992. I don't believe

3 that we can make it better than this --

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Because we are wasting a lot of time.

5 The witness wanted to say something. What did you want to say?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thank you for letting me speak.

7 Since these photographs were made from angles that are agreeable to these

8 gentlemen, I have pre-war, war and post-war photographs where you can see

9 quite clearly. I know what the gentleman is trying to say, that they

10 could not see the soldiers as they came. They came to my house,

11 gentlemen. They came here, Mr. Zaric and Tadic were there. And now this

12 side you can see it here, you can see the fence of my neighbour. If you

13 look in the direction of my yard, you can see this empty space. So I

14 could see them from this side too. I could see them from the side of my

15 yard, or rather, the entrance, and I could also see them through the

16 window of my house, or rather, our yard. This was our yard. We were in

17 one yard. So if you allow me, I am going to submit to you my photographs

18 where you can see the house from all angles, and I also have a video

19 cassette. Perhaps that will facilitate matters. This picture was taken

20 from a different street.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Mr. Weiner.

22 MR. WEINER: I was just going to say, it's not redirect

23 examination, but I just would like -- if the Court could ask the witness,

24 does he have these in his possession at this time, or are these at his

25 home.

Page 5819

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Because I was about to say, we would like to

2 establish the truth.

3 MR. WEINER: Yes.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We would like to have our hands on any

5 evidence that would assist us in establishing the truth.

6 So I'll find out from the witness. Witness, you do say you have

7 photographs which can eliminate these problems we are facing right now.

8 You also have video footage. Do you have them with you?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Unfortunately I don't have them here

10 with me. But I can make sure that you get them within two days, and then

11 everything can be seen quite clearly from that.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe we can leave this part of the

13 cross-examination, then you can move on to other parts, then you come back

14 to it when we have the clear photographs.

15 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, Your Honour. With your instruction, I will

16 follow that.

17 JUDGE SINGH: Mr. Lazarevic, the other thing was that I think in

18 his examination-in-chief he said he was outside in the yard when the tank

19 and the soldiers came. So I think the question here is if he was in the

20 yard, then was the yard in front of this road. In other words, you could

21 still see straight ahead. Although you may not be able to see from the

22 house, was he able to see from the yard where he says he was. I think

23 that is the contextual situation, and not where the house is.

24 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honour is completely right, and if I may add,

25 so far I didn't pose him a question about this -- about this. I mean, I

Page 5820

1 didn't ask him whether he was in the house. He already stated that he was

2 in the yard. I just wanted to show the situation that was at that time in

3 this yard, regarding where the house is, and then I wanted to ask him

4 where were you in the yard, because you already stated that you were in

5 the yard. And to establish where, exactly, he was in position. How far

6 he was in position to see the military vehicles that was approaching his

7 house.

8 JUDGE SINGH: But I think when you hear military vehicles like

9 tanks coming, you can even hear the rumble before it arrives.

10 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. That's --

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Maybe you can move on.

12 MR. LAZAREVIC: I will continue, and we will deal with this later,

13 I believe.


15 So these two photographs on the ELMO right now --

16 MR. LAZAREVIC: If it is easier --

17 JUDGE MUMBA: We might not use them --

18 MR. LAZAREVIC: We might mark them just for ID, or whatever it is

19 decision of Court, I will agree with it.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We could mark them.

21 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps --

22 JUDGE MUMBA: They can also be produced. But they don't solve the

23 problem, anyway. It's just that they were discussed.

24 MR. LAZAREVIC: Whatever Your Honour pleases.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Can I have the numbers, exhibit numbers for the two

Page 5821

1 of them.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. Exhibit numbers D18/4 and

3 D19/4.

4 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. We shall now continue, and then, depending on how the Trial

6 Chamber rules, we may go back to this subject.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: [Previous translation continues] ... of these last

8 two, D18 and D19, so that we all mark them correctly.

9 MR. LAZAREVIC: May I proceed, Your Honour?

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think you can proceed. We'll get them

11 later.

12 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Mr. Dagovic, during your testimony, you said that a tank came in

14 front of your house, and that Mr. Zaric and that Mr. Tadic were there in

15 front of your house, standing on that tank. While you were being examined

16 by the Prosecutor, you stated that you had done your military service. So

17 I would like to put a few questions to you in this regard. Do you know

18 what a Praga is?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Could you please tell the Court, then. It's been mentioned

21 several times here, and we haven't fully clarified it. What is a Praga

22 exactly?

23 A. A Praga is an anti-aircraft gun. This was not that. This looked

24 like a vehicle, like a truck. If you think that I have confused a Praga

25 and a tank, that's not the case.

Page 5822

1 Q. That's what I wanted to ask you, but I see that you have already

2 responded. So let me just ask you one more thing. Do you know what a BOV

3 is?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Was it perhaps a BOV?

6 A. No. A BOV is a combat armoured vehicle.

7 Q. This military vehicle that came in front of your house was a

8 tank. It wasn't a BOV, it wasn't a Praga. That is your assertion.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. When you first noticed this tank coming up, how far away was it?

11 When is it that you first saw it from your house?

12 A. Well, perhaps 3 or 4 metres away. If you can give me back the

13 picture of my yard, I can show you this.

14 Q. Precisely. So it was already --

15 A. In front of the house.

16 Q. When you first saw it?

17 A. What do you mean "first saw it"?

18 Q. I mean in front of your house.

19 A. Well, yes, in front of my house, yes.

20 Q. At that moment, therefore, the tank stopped in front of your

21 house, and that's the first time you saw Zaric and Tadic standing.

22 A. When the tank stopped, we saw it, and we had heard it, because it

23 was coming from the direction of the pizzeria. And it came to that space,

24 that area that can be seen from my house, on the street. And then it

25 stopped, and then 10 or 20 soldiers walked into the yard, to the best of

Page 5823

1 my assessment, and they asked us to come out. And then when I went out,

2 they asked me to hand over my weapons. And then I saw Mr. Zaric and

3 Mr. Tadic as they were standing on the tank -- on the caterpillars of the

4 tank, because the tank was standing -- and then they also faced -- turned

5 the gun towards the house. The gun was facing the house, or rather, this

6 passage, that is to say, the yard.

7 Q. These are not -- these are the details that I'm seeking to

8 clarify. So you see Zaric and Tadic as you were practically getting out

9 in front of your house, out of the yard, when the tank was already

10 standing there.

11 A. Yes. You see, when I got into the yard, I did not go out of the

12 yard. I was in my yard, and this was in front of the yard. So that is

13 three four metres, the street and my yard, and that's when I saw them.

14 Q. So that means that they were standing on the caterpillars of the

15 tank, according to what you just said?

16 A. Yes. This tank was not moving. It was standing.

17 Q. Did you see the turret of the tank as it was turning or when you

18 first saw it, had it already turned?

19 A. It had already turned.

20 JUDGE SINGH: Mr. Lazarevic, I'm looking at your D18, your D18,

21 perhaps you want to just ask him to mark with some ink the direction from

22 which the tank came and where it went, assuming that we accept this

23 photograph, which I think would be a good representation, because we

24 roughly know where your -- where the gate is and where the uncle's house

25 is, and his house is inside. Right?

Page 5824

1 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honour, that was my intention, in regard to

2 that particular photograph.

3 JUDGE SINGH: I think if we see all the photographs together, we

4 do understand this.

5 MR. LAZAREVIC: Following instructions from Judge Mumba and --

6 JUDGE SINGH: Yes. We have pieced them together.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is the wrong

8 picture. It was coming from the other direction. Could I get a different

9 picture so that I could -- so that I could show it in the empty space by

10 my house? This was wrong. They were coming from this direction here, and

11 not from that direction out there.

12 JUDGE SINGH: [Microphone not activated]

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Judge Singh, please.

14 JUDGE SINGH: Sorry. You have 17 and 18 there. So you can -- or

15 take all four and just draw the direction, please.

16 MR. ZECEVIC: I wanted to be of assistance, if I may. It is in my

17 opinion D17 which you had in mind, and actually, the witness is asking for

18 the same picture -- D16. I'm sorry. That's the photograph. And the 17

19 is the sketch. Yes.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 18.

21 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. You have heard the Honourable Judge Singh. Could you just mark

23 the direction from which this vehicle, this tank came?

24 A. The tank came from this direction, that is to say, I saw it here,

25 through the window. The tank stopped here in front of my house. It

Page 5825

1 turned its turret, or rather, its gun towards my house. Mr. Zaric was

2 standing here on this side with Mr. Tadic, that is to say, the side facing

3 my yard. I walked out into my yard, so I saw this clearly. So they were

4 coming from this direction. I saw them here and I also -- well, I saw

5 them twice, then.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the markings. We know that he has

7 explained where the arrow is. He saw the -- the tank first there and then

8 where it has stopped in front of the gate. Can we have it marked some

9 number, counsel, so that we are all clear as to what this diagram on the

10 photograph stands for.

11 MR. LAZAREVIC: Okay. May I suggest what -- this is the

12 photograph of witness's house --

13 JUDGE MUMBA: No. It has an identification number, I think. It's

14 D --

15 THE REGISTRAR: D16/4, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It's D16/4. So we just want this -- the

17 marking he has made for the tanker facing his house to be either 1 or 2 or

18 whatever.


20 JUDGE SINGH: And just to make things further clearer, if you look

21 at B -- D15, that little, that white wall at the right side, is that part

22 of your uncle's house, which can be seen in the photograph you've just

23 marked?

24 MR. LAZAREVIC: Well, Your Honour --

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you're referring to this, yes,

Page 5826

1 this is part of my uncle's house.

2 JUDGE SINGH: Then that is the yard in front of your house, then.

3 In the photo on the ELMO. Right?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. But it was one

5 yard. All this was one yard. You see? You see, this is a free

6 passageway here. All of this was one yard. And please may attention to

7 this. You can see the light here in relation to this. So the house only

8 concealed part of my house. So the light came clearly from the street.

9 There was not a house in front.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we then have the house which you've pointed at

11 as your uncle's marked with the letter "X", please, so that is clear, on

12 the photograph which is now on the ELMO.

13 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, on this photograph that is now on the ELMO.

14 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Dagovic, you heard the Trial Chamber.

15 They're asking you to mark your uncle's house with number "1" -- no the

16 photograph that you're watching now.

17 A. This one?

18 Q. Yes, this one.

19 A. So part of the house.

20 Q. Yes, the part of the house that you can see.

21 A. [Marks]

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. That makes it clearer now because as you

23 explained -- we can see where the shadow is falling and we can see the

24 other part of your house where there's no shadow.

25 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours --

Page 5827

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we see the other photograph where you drew

2 this -- the photograph where you drew the sketch of the tanker, or

3 whatever you call it. Yes, can we have it marked?

4 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. The photograph of Mr. Dagovic's uncle's

5 house --

6 JUDGE MUMBA: It has an identification number. I just wanted --

7 MR. LAZAREVIC: Okay. With the arrow showing the direction --

8 JUDGE MUMBA: And then where he drew this figure.

9 MR. LAZAREVIC: Where the tank came from.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Mm-hm.

11 MR. LAZAREVIC: And together with the picture.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Where the tank stopped.

13 MR. LAZAREVIC: The shadow of the tank on the left side.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: In front of the gate. Can we have it marked "X."

15 Because when you look at the photograph and you're reading the

16 transcript, then you'll be wondering what this is. If it's marked "X,"

17 then you can tell that this is where the tanker stopped, as drawn on the

18 photograph.

19 MR. LAZAREVIC: At this moment, Your Honour, I don't believe I

20 follow exactly what you mean.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: You see the photograph on the screen.

22 MR. LAZAREVIC: I'll ask for the help of my colleagues to ...

23 Yes, okay.

24 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Dagovic, can you mark your uncle's house by

25 number "1."

Page 5828

1 A. I already explained that.

2 Q. On this picture, in order to be able to identify it in the

3 transcript.

4 A. Since this picture is already number "1," can I put number "2"?

5 Q. No. They differ between themselves.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: [Previous translation continues] ... so just put "1"

7 there, on the picture on the screen right now. Yes, it's the same house.

8 Can you ask him also to mark the tanker he had drawn? Yes.

9 MR. LAZAREVIC: Well, number "2," with the arrow, I believe that

10 he pointed, and with number "3," the tank.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. To make a distinction, yes.

12 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. So please, the arrow with number "2" and with number "3," the tank

14 that you drew.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. That's better.

16 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Mr. Dagovic, so this is the first time you see Tadic and Zaric.

18 When you came to this spot that you already pointed out to us by the

19 gate. You see the two of them; right?

20 A. When I got out of the house, when I went into the yard, you can

21 see it better here, sir. You see? You took a picture of the yard from

22 this road. You took a picture of the house from here. So you can see

23 this. This is where I went out. And that's where I saw them.

24 Q. Yes, yes, that's what I meant?

25 A. The house is perhaps 7 metres by 10 metres. Yes, so say from

Page 5829

1 here, it's 7 metres to the corner of the house.

2 Q. So therefore, you did not see when the turret was actually

3 turning. It had already been turned when you saw it.

4 A. Yes, that's right. Otherwise, it could not drive on. It would

5 break down all the trees.

6 Q. I didn't find that clear either. That's why I'm asking you.

7 Mr. Dagovic, you have already testified here before the Tribunal,

8 and you said that you had had a pistol, for which you had a permit. And

9 you wore it out of fear that somebody might steal the money you were

10 carrying from the pizzeria, the earnings of a particular day; is that

11 correct?

12 A. Yes, that's correct.

13 Q. Furthermore, you said -- I mean, we are talking about this

14 situation concerning weapons now. You said that you hid that pistol in

15 the cellar; is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You had a permit for that pistol.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. We heard from you that over the radio, they were asking citizens

20 to leave weapons in yards and the street, but you did not do that.

21 A. I did not do that.

22 Q. Can you tell us more specifically where you hid this pistol in the

23 cellar. Do you remember where it was exactly?

24 A. Yes. I remember where I hid it. I hid it behind the old washing

25 machine in the cellar.

Page 5830












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5831

1 Q. In the cellar of your house, underneath the coal, did you have a

2 hidden Kalashnikov?

3 A. Underneath the coal? No.

4 Q. And in some other place?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did you have a hidden zolja?

7 A. No.

8 Q. So it is not correct that you handed over a Kalashnikov in the

9 cellar of your house to Goran Buzakovic?

10 A. I handed over to Goran Buzakovic this pistol.

11 Q. Only the pistol?

12 A. He entered the cellar with me, and I handed it over to him. And I

13 remember I showed him so that he could see that the pistol had not been

14 fired at all.

15 Q. I was interested in the Kalashnikov and in the zolja

16 specifically. Perhaps -- I beg your pardon -- for the Trial Chamber - I

17 did not look at the transcript - but let us explain what a zolja is so

18 that we would not have to deal with this through another witness.

19 A. I will explain this, but I don't want there to be any

20 misunderstanding that I had this zolja.

21 Q. No, no, no.

22 A. I know from the army that zolja is an anti-armour weapon, a rocket

23 launcher. How should I explain this to the court. And I didn't have

24 this. Imagine if everybody had that many weapons, as you've been saying

25 or as people could be saying. We could have defended ourselves. We would

Page 5832

1 not be hiding in cellars.

2 Q. Was your cellar searched after you handed over this weapon?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. On that occasion or some other occasion?

5 A. On that occasion.

6 Q. Now I would like to move on to another subject in connection with

7 this. Of course all of this is interconnected. But now let us leave this

8 aside -- I mean, the weapon-taking.

9 Now we are going to talk about the 4th Detachment.

10 JUDGE SINGH: Mr. Lazarevic, are you abandoning this -- weapons

11 now? Are you abandoning this point?

12 MR. LAZAREVIC: So far, because -- yes, yes, in so far. But I

13 cannot promise that I will not be back on this in later course. I just

14 want to confer later with my co-counsel. And since we have just five

15 minutes of trial hours today, I would like to do as much as I can for

16 today.

17 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Dagovic, I have carefully read the transcript

18 of your statement. You spoke of the 4th Detachment on several occasions,

19 and you said "Simo's detachment," "Zaric's army," and the like.

20 A. Yes, that's right.

21 Q. Did you use these terms because in your opinion, Simo Zaric was

22 the commander of this detachment? Was that the reason why you were using

23 precisely these terms?

24 A. Mr. Zaric on paper was not the commander. It was Radovan Antic.

25 But Mr. Zaric held all the strings. And I saw Mr. Zaric at the police

Page 5833

1 station too, not Radovan Antic.

2 Q. I asked you this because I wanted to know why you had been using

3 precisely this term. If Radovan Antic had been the commander, would you

4 have said "Radovan's army"?

5 A. If Radovan had been in charge of the 4th Detachment, I would have

6 said "Radovan's army."

7 Q. Do you know --

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, you are forgetting to pause, both of you.

9 Yes. It's difficult for the interpreters.

10 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. I thought I was slowing down.

11 Q. [Interpretation] So you know that, as you had put it on paper,

12 Radovan Antic was commander of the 4th Detachment.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you know what Jovo Savic was?

15 A. I'm not aware of that.

16 Q. Speaking further on about the members of the 4th Detachment, can

17 you say about each and every one of them this man was a member of the 4th

18 Detachment, this man was not?

19 A. I think that I could say who the members of the 4th Detachment

20 were. I'm not claiming that I could name all of them, though.

21 Q. Were there members of the 4th Detachment who were not from the

22 town of Samac?

23 A. I don't know. There were some people from villages whom I did not

24 know. Perhaps I did know them, since I worked in the pizzeria where

25 people came.

Page 5834

1 Q. My colleague already asked you something about this. Did the

2 members of the 4th Detachment -- I mean, I'm talking from -- about the

3 period from the 17th in the morning onwards. Were they wearing white

4 ribbons on their shoulders? Did you see them with white ribbons on their

5 shoulders?

6 A. It is true that they had them, but I'm not clear what you said.

7 Did you mean the arm or the shoulder?

8 Q. I meant shoulder.

9 A. But they differed from the armbands that were worn by civilians.

10 Q. I asked you about the white ribbon that many people have

11 confirmed were worn on shoulders, so this is not really ...

12 You mentioned in your statement Dr. Mirko Sisic who you

13 said was a good man and who helped you, who was good and fair to you as a

14 doctor when you came to hospital. Do you know that he was a member of the

15 4th Detachment?

16 A. Yes. But as far as I know, he was there as a doctor, not as a

17 soldier, like his brother was, for example.

18 Q. I asked you whether he was a member.

19 A. I heard you.

20 Q. So his brother, Vlado Sisic, he was also a member of the

21 4th Detachment?

22 A. Yes. He was much worse than his brother. Actually, his brother

23 was nice.

24 Q. Do you know until when the 4th Detachment existed, or rather, when

25 it ceased to exist? Let me rephrase the question that way.

Page 5835

1 A. I don't know about that. But I know that in the time of camps and

2 deportations, the 4th Detachment did exist. About later, I don't know.

3 Q. I'm going to put a question to you, and tell me if you don't

4 know. Do you know that the 4th Detachment was disbanded on the 12th of

5 May, 1992, when the 4th Unit of the Republika Srpska Army was established,

6 and then the 4th Detachment was no longer in existence?

7 A. Possibly.

8 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, now it's 6.00. Shall we take a

9 recess?

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We'll continue our proceedings tomorrow at

11 14.15.

12 Yes, Mr. Weiner.

13 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, this is the witness that we've had a

14 problem getting here. He waited here four days without getting on the

15 witness stand, and he had a work problem. Could we just -- or could the

16 Court ask the witness what's convenient for him to come back. I don't

17 know -- initially he was told he was going to finish his testimony today.

18 I don't know if he has clothes to stay overnight. I don't know what his

19 situation is. If the Court could inquire of Victims and Witnesses. I

20 don't want to get him fired from his job too, because his boss was

21 notified by Victims and Witnesses that he would finish today.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I thought that would have been verified by the

23 Victims and Witnesses Unit already, because it should have been obvious to

24 the Prosecution that the cross-examination would not finish in half a day.

25 MR. WEINER: We've received three emails in the past five to ten

Page 5836

1 minutes where the Victims and Witnesses Unit is asking us what is going on

2 and if someone could just inquire what his personal schedule is and if

3 necessary, the Victims and Witnesses Unit could notify his employer that

4 there's a problem. Or does he need to go home and obtain these

5 photographs for tomorrow or --

6 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no. I don't think the photographs should be

7 the reason. It's the fact that we haven't finished cross-examination. So

8 the Victims -- I wouldn't be able to verify with him, because I don't want

9 him to feel obliged to come, if you have a problem with his employers,

10 that is a matter the Victims and Witnesses Unit should deal with. Because

11 he can come on another day.

12 MR. WEINER: I just -- should we have someone from the Victims and

13 Witnesses Unit speak with him right now or ...?

14 JUDGE MUMBA: No. We can do it this way. We can adjourn and hope

15 that we'll sit tomorrow. If his discussions with the Victims and

16 Witnesses Unit are such that he can -- he can stay on, then he'll

17 continue. If not, then I'm sure there ought to be another witness.

18 By the way, we are not sitting on Friday because of the

19 maintenance people who have to do court maintenance, so we will only sit

20 up to tomorrow this week, Thursday.

21 MR. WEINER: All right.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe we could -- maybe we can -- I don't know how

23 far anybody from the Victims and Witnesses Unit is.

24 MR. WEINER: They have to be here because they're sending us

25 emails. So someone has to --

Page 5837

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 MR. WEINER: If we could adjourn for maybe five minutes.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Maybe we will stand down for ten minutes and

4 then be able to sort out this problem. Just for ten minutes, yes.

5 --- Break taken at 6.05 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 6.26 p.m.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: The Trial Chamber is going to adjourn. The Trial

8 Chamber is not pleased with the way things are going, because it was

9 obvious to anybody in these proceedings that this witness wasn't going to

10 complete cross-examination and re-examination in one day, and the

11 arrangements for further proceedings with this witness should have been

12 made long before today. We are adjourning, and the proceedings will

13 continue tomorrow at 14.15. We are hoping that one witness or the other

14 will be brought by the Prosecution.

15 The Court will rise.

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.26 p.m., to

17 be reconvened on Thursday, the 14th day of February,

18 2002, at 2.15 p.m.