Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6660

1 Monday, 4 March 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The accused Milan Simic not present]

5 [The witness entered court]

6 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Case number

9 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Milan Simic, Miroslav

10 Tadic and Simo Zaric.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. The proceedings this afternoon will go

12 on with the two of us present under Rule 15 bis. Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours. As you can see, Mr. Milan

14 Simic is not present. I've had a conversation with Ms. Baen who instructs

15 me that the Defence for Milan Simic is in a position to stipulate or agree

16 that this witness would be in a position to identify him if he were here.

17 I think that Ms. Baen can agree with that assertion.

18 MS. BAEN: That is correct.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.


21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 Examination by Mr. Di Fazio: [Continued]

23 Q. Witness, while we are on the issue of Mr. Milan Simic, can you

24 tell the Chamber how long you've known him?

25 A. I know him from about town. I know him as someone who worked in

Page 6661

1 the Buducnost factory. I also know him and used to see him in certain

2 restaurants.

3 Q. Approximately how long have you known him, or perhaps I should say

4 had you known him, as of April of 1992?

5 A. For the past five years, I knew him pretty well.

6 Q. I understand from your answer that you mean in the five years

7 preceding April, 1992?

8 A. More closely.

9 Q. And what sort of contacts did you have with him? Were they mainly

10 social, mainly professional, or just meetings from time to time in the

11 street? What sort of contact, in other words?

12 A. Accidental meetings in the street or a restaurant perhaps.

13 Q. Thank you. Now, can I ask you to turn your attention again to the

14 days following the events of the 16th and 17th of April? On Friday, you

15 described some events that you observed on the day of the 17th. I want

16 you now to turn your attention to the day of the 18th of April.

17 A. On the 18th of April, 1992, in the morning, looking from my house,

18 I saw a military vehicle surrounded by soldiers of the Yugoslav People's

19 Army, Djuheric, nicknamed Coc, walked in front of the vehicle. He was

20 dressed in a military uniform, and he was a carrying a megaphone, and he

21 was calling out to citizens to surrender their arms.

22 Q. Just some details about this sight that you saw. First of all,

23 the soldiers that you've referred to, and I'm not talking about the man

24 Djuheric but the soldiers that you saw, can you comments on whether or not

25 they were locals or not?

Page 6662

1 A. These soldiers were not local.

2 Q. How were they dressed? Did they have any similarities to the

3 camouflaged men that you had seen the day before?

4 A. No. They were wearing uniforms of the Yugoslav People's Army.

5 Q. Thank you. Now, this man Djuheric, of what ethnic background was

6 he?

7 A. Djuheric is an ethnic Muslim.

8 Q. Was he a local resident, that is, a man from Bosanski Samac?

9 A. He was a local of Bosanski Samac.

10 Q. Do you have any idea if he was a member of any military

11 organisation or group in Bosanski Samac?

12 A. It is common knowledge in Samac that he was a member of the 4th

13 Detachment.

14 Q. Now, you say that he was calling out to the citizens to surrender

15 their arms. Was that call to surrender having any effect? Were people in

16 fact surrendering arms or responding to his calls?

17 A. I couldn't see that. I couldn't see anyone turning over their

18 weapons.

19 Q. Did you remain at home throughout the day, that is, the day of the

20 18th?

21 A. I stayed inside the whole day.

22 Q. With your family?

23 A. With my family, yes.

24 Q. Thank you. Other than the sight of this Djuheric fellow and the

25 soldiers who accompanied him, did you see any other military activity

Page 6663

1 throughout the day that you can recall? If not, just say so.

2 A. I don't remember any other military activity. All I can say is

3 that on that, or the following day, the military vehicle reappeared, but

4 that was a military truck carrying troops. It drove along the streets of

5 the town and, again, through a megaphone, they were calling out to people

6 to surrender weapons.

7 Q. Do I take it from your answer, therefore, that in the few days

8 after the 16th -- the events of the 16th and 17th of April, there were

9 several calls on the citizenry to surrender their weapons, using these

10 trucks and megaphones and so on?

11 A. That is correct.

12 Q. In those few days, did you have occasion to listen to the radio in

13 order to try and get some information as to what was going on, what was

14 happening?

15 A. I listened to the radio in those days. The radio station was

16 renamed. At that time, it was called Bosanski Samac Radio before, and

17 then it was renamed to the Serbian Samac Radio station. I also heard an

18 appeal to all men to report to the headquarters of the Territorial Defence

19 to be registered.

20 Q. And was that a call directed to all men regardless of ethnic

21 background?

22 A. I think it was.

23 Q. Did you respond to that call?

24 A. I did not.

25 Q. Why not?

Page 6664

1 A. I did not want to serve the forces occupying my town.

2 Q. Now, just answer the next question, if you can, with a yes or a

3 no. I want to establish a time frame. Were you eventually arrested?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What day were you arrested?

6 A. On the 22nd of April, 1992.

7 Q. Thanks. Let's use that as a fixing point. In relation to the

8 22nd of April, 1992, when would you say that the call to report to the TO

9 occurred? If you can't say precisely, let us know. But if you can give

10 us an idea, please do.

11 A. The call was issued on the 19th of April, 1992.

12 Q. Did you or your family make any attempt to get out of Bosanski

13 Samac or alternatively obtain information about getting out of Bosanski

14 Samac?

15 A. My brother tried to get a permit for his family and my family to

16 leave the town. He approached -- he had approached the newly appointed

17 chief of police, Stevan Todorovic with this request and was denied. He

18 was --

19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters' correction. I was told that a

20 permit should be sought from Perica Krstanovic, who was my neighbour.


22 Q. Who told you to approach Perica Krstanovic and why were you -- was

23 any reason given why you should approach him in particular?

24 A. He was a neighbour of mine and I had asked him at one point if

25 there was a possibility for me and my family to leave the town, and he

Page 6665

1 said it was possible only with the permission from the new authorities.

2 Q. And was your obtaining of that information that caused your

3 brother to approach Todorovic with a view to getting permission to get

4 out?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. Did your brother report to you on Todorovic's response?

7 A. Yes. He came to my home and told me, "I had been to see the new

8 chief of police Stevan Todorovic and I had tried to get a permit for our

9 two families to leave, but he refused me, and he ordered me to go and

10 fetch you and said that we should both come and see him."

11 Q. I take it at this stage you had no idea of what awaited you should

12 you respond to such a call?

13 A. No, I didn't.

14 Q. We'll get on to what did await you shortly, but before we do that,

15 I'd like to ask you if in the time leading up to your arrest, if you saw

16 anyone with white armbands?

17 A. Yes, I did see people with white armbands. My father himself came

18 to our place wearing such an armband, and he brought several more, and he

19 said that Marko Kuresevic had been going from apartment to apartment in

20 his residential building, distributing white armbands, and he said he had

21 told people that they could go out into the street only with a white

22 armband on their left arm.

23 Q. First of all, the ethnic background of this gentleman, Marko

24 Kuresevic, what is it?

25 A. He is an ethnic Serb.

Page 6666

1 Q. Did your father provide a report or tell you of any official

2 reason as to why white armbands should be worn?

3 A. No, he didn't.

4 Q. Did you see any of the citizenry wearing white armbands in the

5 period of time before your arrest?

6 A. From the window of my house, I saw several people walking by in

7 the street wearing such armbands on their sleeves.

8 Q. And what ethnic background were they?

9 A. Muslims.

10 Q. Did you see any citizens not wearing white armbands?

11 A. They were citizens of Serb ethnicity.

12 Q. And these observations, were they made from your home, from inside

13 your house, looking out into the street and so on?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. Thank you. I'd like you now to turn your attention to the day of

16 your arrest, the 22nd of April, and we will go into that in a little more

17 detail. Can you explain to the Chamber, please, how it came about that

18 you attended at the police -- at the SUP? Perhaps I'm leading you there

19 and I shouldn't be, but did you in fact go to the SUP as part of your --

20 as part of your being arrested?

21 A. In the morning of the 22nd, my wife told me that a friend was

22 asking for me on the phone. When I took the receiver, I recognised the

23 voice of Stevan Todorovic, who told me that I was to come to the SUP

24 immediately for an interview concerning my employer, my company, and if I

25 don't come myself, he would send a police car to fetch me. I did not want

Page 6667

1 to allow a police car to come anywhere near our house. I didn't want my

2 children to see any such thing so I went. When I entered the building of

3 the SUP, Todorovic was in a room. The door was ajar. He saw me entering

4 and he beckoned me to come in. When I entered the room, there was another

5 civilian besides Todorovic, and a couple of soldiers. Todorovic was

6 wearing a black uniform, which I hadn't seen before. He motioned me to

7 stand in the middle of the room, and he told me, "The Serbs had a

8 premonition of what was going to happen, and they took action. From now

9 on, this is a Serbian town." I didn't say anything to that. So he asked

10 me whether I was a member of the SDA. I said I wasn't. Then he asked me

11 if I knew anything about the allocation of money by my company for the

12 purchase of weapons for the SDA. I said I didn't know anything about it

13 and I didn't believe it was true. Then he asked me, "Has there been any

14 shooting from your house?" I answered, "There has been no shooting, not

15 only from my house but from my street, at all." Then he motioned a guard

16 to take me away, but I asked him for permission to make a brief phone call

17 to my home. I was allowed to do that. I told my wife that I won't be

18 home for a while. And after that, the guard escorted me to the premises

19 of the Territorial Defence.

20 Q. From your answer, something must have happened that made you aware

21 that you were going to be locked up, incarcerated. Did -- were you told

22 by Todorovic that in fact you were to be arrested and incarcerated, before

23 seeking permission to make the phone call to your wife? Otherwise there

24 wouldn't have been any need to do that.

25 A. He said, "We will lock you up until we've had a chance to check

Page 6668












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13 English transcripts.













Page 6669

1 all this."

2 Q. So you managed to speak to your wife. And were you then taken to

3 the TO across the road?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. Again, before I ask you about events in the TO, I'd like the

6 Chamber to have a time frame. How long did you remain in the TO?

7 A. I remained inside the TO building from the 22nd to the 29th of

8 April, 1992.

9 Q. Were you then taken somewhere?

10 A. I was taken then together with the others, to the military

11 barracks in Brcko.

12 Q. All right. Now, let's look at that week that you were in custody

13 at the TO. I'd like you to describe what you saw when you were first

14 taken into the TO and your eyes adjusted and could you see around

15 yourself. Tell the Chamber, give the Chamber a description of what you

16 saw.

17 A. When I entered that room, which was sized about five by five

18 metres, it had a concrete floor. The first thing that struck me was that

19 there was a lot of human hair and there was blood on the floor. There

20 were about 40 people inside. Some of them had swollen faces and wounds on

21 their bodies. Their faces were blue. They had open wounds on their

22 heads. Blood had dried on their skin and faces. The walls were also

23 covered with bloodstains and dried blood.

24 Q. Could you smell anything?

25 A. It smelled of blood, of dried blood, and the stench was awful.

Page 6670

1 Q. In the period of a week or so that -- of a week during which you

2 remained in the TO, did you see men beaten?

3 A. It happened on a daily basis. Most often in the afternoon hours

4 or at night. Every day.

5 Q. Thank you. I'd like to enable the Chamber to have a general

6 picture of these beatings and then I might direct you to one or two

7 specific occasions. Firstly, the frequency. You've commented already

8 that it happened every day, mostly in the afternoon. Can you comment on

9 the numbers of men who would be beaten in the afternoons? Are you talking

10 about one or two victims here, or three or four, or did it vary?

11 A. It varied. Ten to 15 people would be beaten every day. When

12 people were taken out, they would always beg not to be taken out because

13 their wounds had not healed yet, the wounds from the previous beating.

14 Q. Thank you. And can you tell the Chamber or comment on the --

15 whether or not instruments were used in administering these beatings?

16 A. They used all kinds of things, rifle butts, barrels, wooden

17 sticks, metal sticks, they kicked people with boots.

18 Q. Can you comment on the intensity or ferocity of the beatings?

19 A. The beatings were so intense that new wounds would be inflicted

20 with every blow and there would be blood spraying everywhere. People

21 would come back after the beatings all covered in blood. You could see

22 those open, gaping wounds. You could see the flesh, the skin and the

23 flesh on their faces and on their hands.

24 Q. Who was carrying out these beatings? And by that, if you can give

25 us some names, by all means do, but I'm also interested in the position

Page 6671

1 of -- and what groups the people who were carrying out the beatings

2 belonged to, soldiers, policemen, civilians, that sort of thing.

3 A. At the time the beatings were administered by the specials from

4 Serbia.

5 Q. Did anyone other than these specials engage in beating men in that

6 first week in which you were imprisoned?

7 A. I didn't notice that.

8 Q. Can you tell the Chamber if any of the men who engaged in carrying

9 out the beatings appeared to have been drinking?

10 A. I wouldn't know that.

11 Q. Thank you. I'd like to ask you now about some specific episodes

12 during that week. I'm sorry, I should withdraw that question. Before I

13 do, before I get on to specific episodes, I'd like to ask you about

14 another aspect of what you saw and that's this: Did you see or hear any

15 singing going on in the TO?

16 A. They forced us to sing Chetnik songs. On some occasions we had to

17 do that for hours.

18 Q. Did any of the men fall down or collapse from this being forced to

19 stand and sing?

20 A. Naturally, there were people who collapsed. They fainted. And

21 those standing next to them would assist them to their feet and help them

22 to stand, because if somebody was found not to be standing up while they

23 had to sing, it would mean additional torture.

24 Q. Thank you. And can you give the Chamber an idea of just how loud

25 the noise was coming from the TO and how far, in your estimation it would

Page 6672

1 have carried? And I'm referring to the TO -- the singing in the TO, and

2 in addition, to the screams and yells of the men as they were beaten.

3 A. We had to sing very loudly. I think the range would be at least

4 half a kilometre. You could hear our singing at a distance of at least a

5 half a kilometre.

6 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to ask you about specific beatings and

7 attacks that you saw during that week. Do you know of a man nicknamed, I

8 think, Dikan?

9 A. Yes. It was a small, elderly man, aged between 60 and 65, a

10 member of the Special Forces got in one day, asked for Dikan. The old man

11 said that it was him. He took him and slammed him against the concrete

12 and continued hitting him with a wooden 2 by 4. The old man moaned and

13 begged to be let go, and he was saying, "You're going to kill me." But

14 this member of the Special Forces kept on hitting him. At one point I saw

15 the old man fall over what -- a Jerry can for water. His body remained

16 motionless and there was blood gushing out of his mouth. This member of

17 the Special Forces dragged him out. And then we heard a shot.

18 Q. What was the name of the man from the Special Forces, if you know?

19 A. His name was Lugar.

20 Q. When you say he was dragged out, was that -- does that mean he was

21 dragged out into the courtyard of the TO and shot there?

22 A. He was dragged out into the courtyard. He was dragged in front of

23 the room in which we were sitting.

24 Q. Was the door open?

25 A. The door was ajar.

Page 6673

1 Q. And how many times was he shot, can you recall?

2 A. One or two shots. There were one or two shots. I can't recall

3 with any certainty.

4 Q. And did this man, Lugar, say anything after he'd murdered Dikan?

5 A. We heard him shout, "Throw the dog into the Sava River."

6 Q. Did any of the representatives of the new Serb state come along

7 and investigate this crime, as far as you're aware, take statements from

8 you, any police officers try and find out what had happened?

9 A. No one asked for any statement.

10 Q. What about the good chief of police? Did he come over and speak

11 to the prisoners and ask what had happened?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You know a gentleman named Sead Mujkanovic?

14 A. I know him very well.

15 Q. And what was his occupation prior to the 16th and 17th of April?

16 A. He was in the regular police force.

17 Q. And his ethnic background, please?

18 A. He was a Muslim.

19 Q. And what was the ethnic background of your fellow prisoners in the

20 TO?

21 A. Muslims and Croats.

22 Q. Were they all local Muslims and Croats?

23 A. Yes, at that time.

24 Q. Were any of them combatants dressed in military fatigues or report

25 to you or report to others, fellow prisoners, that they'd been arrested as

Page 6674

1 combatants or fighting?

2 MS. BAEN: Excuse me, I'm going to object --

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Baen.

4 MS. BAEN: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm objecting to the term

5 "combatant" because it calls for a legal conclusion, only because under

6 international law, some of the case law, under the case law, combatant is

7 a legal term that the judges are supposed to decide. So I object to legal

8 conclusion. I think that counsel can ask the questions about what he

9 asked later in the question, about arms and this, that and the other, but

10 the term "combatant" is something that Your Honours have to decide. Thank

11 you.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio, I'm sure you can rephrase the

13 question and use ordinary terms.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Would "soldier" be okay?


16 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Because a soldier is not necessarily a combatant in

18 the terms we use in the Tribunal.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

20 Q. Were any of these men that you saw in the TO dressed as soldiers

21 or did you hear them report that they'd been arrested while carrying out

22 the sort of activities soldiers carry out?

23 A. In the room, there were only civilians. No one had been arrested

24 as a soldier. No one had been arrested while in combat, while fighting.

25 They had all been brought in from their homes. That's where they had been

Page 6675

1 arrested.

2 Q. Thanks. Now, what about this man Sead Mujkanovic, I'd like to

3 know if you saw him physically attacked during that week in which you were

4 in the TO.

5 A. He was beaten quite often, but I will never forget that one

6 occasion where a member of the Special Forces came in, told him to open

7 his mouth, pushed in the rifle barrel, told him to close his mouth, and

8 pulled out the barrel, and with the sights on the barrel, broke some of

9 his teeth. Then he told him, "Spit out." To make sure that he had

10 managed to knock out some of his teeth, and to actually see how many of

11 his teeth he managed to knock out in this way.

12 Q. Thank you. In the time that you were incarcerated in the TO in

13 this week leading up to the 29th, were you ever taken out of the TO

14 building, taken elsewhere?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Where did you get your meals?

17 A. We got our meals in the Utva factory, which is about 1 kilometre

18 away from the TO building. This was for all the prisoners.

19 Q. Presumably, then, you had to be taken out of the TO and taken down

20 to the Utva factory?

21 A. Yes. We were taken there by truck.

22 Q. Okay. Now, this is the episode I'm interested in. You say you

23 were taken down by truck. Were you under armed guard?

24 A. Yes. In the truck that I was in was at the end of the column and

25 I saw a vehicle driving behind us with about four people in the vehicle.

Page 6676

1 They were armed and in uniforms.

2 Q. Thank you. You say in the truck that you were in, are you

3 implying that the prisoners were transported in more than one truck?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. About how many truck loads of prisoners went down to the Utva

6 factory?

7 A. [No response]

8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises, we did not hear the

9 answer.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can the -- maybe you can repeat the question

11 and then the witness can answer.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

13 Q. There was a little problem with the interpreting or the

14 interpreters hearing your answer there.

15 My question was: How many truckloads of prisoners actually went

16 down to the Utva factory?

17 A. [No response]

18 THE INTERPRETER: Again, we did not hear the answer because of

19 the -- perhaps because of the microphone.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Could the witness be asked to sit nearer the

21 microphone and also can the witness please speak up?


23 Q. Speak up nice and clearly, Mr. Delic. We know that you've

24 answered but obviously it wasn't carrying very clearly. Tell us how many

25 trucks.

Page 6677












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Page 6678

1 A. Two.

2 Q. Thanks. And where in the Utva factory did the prisoners

3 congregate for their lunch?

4 A. We were taken to the canteen of the Utva factory.

5 Q. On this occasion, did you see any of the defendants there? Just

6 answer me yes or no.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Who was that?

9 A. Blagoje Simic.

10 Q. How far away from you was he when you saw him?

11 A. It was the same distance as here in this courtroom, between myself

12 and him.

13 Q. Thank you. And at the time that you saw him, were you surrounded

14 by your fellow prisoners or in company with your fellow prisoners?

15 A. I was with other prisoners, and he was facing us. So that he was

16 able to see all of us. He stood there with a group of maybe two or three

17 men. They were all dressed in the uniforms of the Yugoslav People's Army,

18 just as he was.

19 Q. Thank you. Just answer yes or no. Did you -- did you look at

20 him?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did he look at you?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you tell the Chamber what he would have seen when he looked at

25 you?

Page 6679

1 A.

2 MS. BAEN: Objection, speculation.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I think you can rephrase your question.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Very well. Thank you. I can put the -- attain my

5 objective this way, I think.

6 Q. Can you described to the Chamber the appearance of your fellow

7 prisoners in detail, please, every single detail, clothing, faces, bodies

8 and so on?

9 A. Yes. Some people had great difficulty walking. People had wounds

10 on their heads, on their faces. Most of them had dark blue faces because

11 of the torture they had undergone, they had blood on their hair, on their

12 clothes. Open lacerations on their faces and hands.

13 Q. What about their clothing? Were they dressed in ordinary civilian

14 clothes, first of all? And secondly, was there any blood or dried blood

15 on their clothing?

16 A. They were all in civilian clothes, with dried blood on their

17 clothes, and because of the beatings they had undergone, there were holes

18 and tears on their clothes.

19 Q. You described some of the people not being able to walk properly.

20 Can you remember any of the names of the people who couldn't walk

21 properly?

22 A. I remember [redacted]as we left the TO building to go to the

23 truck, towards the trucks, the police officers standing around this area

24 would beat people as they walked towards the truck, and as [redacted]

25 managed to reach the truck with great difficulty, he was unable to get on

Page 6680

1 the truck. I helped him, risking a beating or even to be killed.

2 Q. When you were at the Utva factory waiting for lunch, was he in a

3 position to be able to stand up by himself or did he need assistance?

4 A. He was unable to stand up by himself. One or two prisoners had to

5 help him stand up.

6 Q. Thank you. How long did you remain at the Utva factory having

7 your lunch?

8 A. Around half an hour.

9 Q. Can you recall how long Blagoje Simic was there?

10 A. Ten to 15 minutes.

11 Q. Did he greet any of the prisoners or speak to them?

12 A. He didn't greet anyone. He did not speak to anyone. He looked at

13 us as if he had never seen us in his life.

14 Q. In the time that you were in the TO building, up until the 29th,

15 when you were moved to Brcko, were you personally beaten?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Have you got any idea how it was that you escaped or any reason

18 why it was that you should have escaped a beating?

19 A. They took people to beat them up in the courtyard. As they did

20 that, the members of the Special Forces would come to the room with a

21 piece of paper from which they would read out the names or nicknames of

22 persons in the room. They got those names from someone, because it was

23 impossible for them to know these people.

24 Q. I take it, then, that you've got no idea why it is that you

25 personally escaped beating at the hands of these men?

Page 6681

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. Do you know a man named Omer Nalic and another man named Hasan

3 Bicic?

4 A. I do.

5 Q. Were they ever taken out of the TO?

6 A. I did not hear all of the interpretation. Could it be repeated?

7 Q. Yes. Were those two gentlemen ever taken out of the TO building

8 for any reason in that week that you were there?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What -- when were they taken out and what was your understanding

11 of the reason that they were taken out of the TO building?

12 A. The people that they assumed had foreign exchange or other

13 valuables at home, the system in place was to beat such people for -- or

14 torture such people for a few days in a row and when they saw that that

15 person was at the end of his tether, that he was at the edge of death,

16 they would come in and they would put this large key to the entrance gate

17 into that person's mouth. They would turn it and ask the person whether

18 he was willing to buy his life. And then they took them to their homes

19 and asked them to hand over the foreign exchange or other valuables.

20 Q. What I'd like to know is this: Is this something that was

21 reported to you or did you actually see these --

22 A. I did.

23 Q. I'm sorry, just let's be sure about this. Let me finish my

24 question first. Did you actually see the key being shoved into the man's

25 throat and the demand being made or is it something that was reported to

Page 6682

1 you?

2 A. I was told after these people returned that they had been taken to

3 their homes, and they themselves opened their mouths to show me the wounds

4 that the turning of the key had left.

5 Q. Thank you. Now, you've mentioned that on the 29th of April, you

6 moved to Brcko. I'd like you to briefly describe to the Chamber who went

7 with you to Brcko. Thank you.

8 A. Apart from three prisoners, we were all transferred to Brcko, all

9 of us who had been in the TO building.

10 Q. Can you recall who were the three who were left behind?

11 A. I remember that Izet Izetbegovic was left behind.

12 Q. You can't remember who the other two were?

13 A. I don't know their names.

14 Q. Thanks. And where were you taken to in Brcko?

15 A. They took us to the barracks of the Yugoslav People's Army in

16 Brcko.

17 Q. Again, give the Chamber a time frame on the period of time you

18 spent in Brcko. How long were you there? And were you eventually

19 transferred from there? And if so, where were you transferred to?

20 A. In Brcko, we were locked up in the prison of the barracks until

21 the 2nd of May, 1992. And then we were transferred to the barracks in

22 Bijeljina. That is also a JNA barracks.

23 Q. Right. Were you mistreated whilst you were in Brcko or did you --

24 and did you see anyone else being mistreated? By that I mean beaten or

25 assaulted and that sort of thing.

Page 6683

1 A. When we arrive at the barracks, the soldiers pulled us off the

2 trucks, searched us and tied our hands behind our backs with wire. We

3 remained with our hands tied behind our backs in this way until the next

4 morning. It was in this interval that they brought a man whom we called

5 "Zuti" and military policemen beat him for several hours. I remember the

6 moment when they threw him in prison. The policeman who was holding a

7 military truncheon, which is twice as thick and big as the police

8 truncheon, beat this prisoner until the truncheon split in two. When he

9 was thrown in, he fell to a spot right beside me, and he told me, "I don't

10 know why they are beating me. I was just a watchman in my company. I was

11 crossing the street to get some coffee and I had in my hand a cell phone

12 and they accused me of owning a remote control radio transmitter and that

13 I was a spy. Whereas in actual fact, I'm a manual worker."

14 Q. What was the ethnic background of this man and where was he from?

15 A. He was a Muslim from Brcko. After a while, they brought another

16 two young men, the Stjepanovic brothers, Andrija and Andzelko. For the

17 entire day, they beat them outside on the other side of the metal bars

18 behind which we were standing. And they only made brief pauses to show

19 them some sort of statement. They would take a brief look at the

20 statement and then they would continue to be beaten. There was a large

21 machine-gun pointing at us, and they said, "If anyone tries anything, if

22 anyone moves, we will shoot." At all times, there were one or two

23 policemen next to that machine-gun.

24 Q. Civilian police or military police?

25 A. It was the military police.

Page 6684

1 Q. And can you tell the Chamber whether or not all the men from

2 Bosanski Samac were held in the one place at the barracks in Brcko or

3 whether they were placed in separate rooms, separate cells?

4 A. Since the prison cells were smaller, we were divided among several

5 cells.

6 Q. Thank you. Now, you said that you moved to -- you were

7 transferred -- I'm sorry, I'll withdraw that question. I have one more

8 question about Brcko. Do you -- do you have any idea as to the reason why

9 you were transferred from Bosanski Samac to Brcko?

10 MS. BAEN: Objection, speculation.

11 A. I don't know.

12 MS. BAEN: Never mind.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: No. I don't think that was asking the witness to

14 speculate. He could have known as a fact. He could have been told.

15 MS. BAEN: I said, "Never mind," Judge, sorry.



18 Q. All right. Now, let's get back to the move to Bijeljina. Again,

19 was it most of the Bosanski Samac prisoners who were transferred with you

20 to the barracks in Bijeljina?

21 A. All the prisoners, the entire group, were transferred as a group

22 from Brcko to Bijeljina.

23 Q. Were you accompanied by any men who were not from Bosanski Samac?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were all of them -- I'll withdraw that question. Was any of them

Page 6685

1 mentally retarded?

2 A. Yes. While we were in Brcko, a man was thrown into my cell, aged

3 perhaps around 50, who was beaten up, but when we tried to talk to him, we

4 noticed that he is not of sound mind.

5 Q. And was he -- was he transferred to Bijeljina?

6 A. Yes. He was transferred together with us to Bijeljina.

7 Q. Anything happen to him in Bijeljina?

8 A. When we arrived in the courtyard of the barracks in Bijeljina and

9 started to get off, at one point, when a certain number of us had already

10 gotten out, a gunshot was heard. We continued to disembark, and I noticed

11 that a group of soldiers was trying to prevent one soldier from doing

12 something, and it seemed to me that he -- this soldier wanted to continue

13 shooting at us. I passed by a man who was lying on the ground. Blood was

14 still flowing from his wound, and I recognised that retarded old man who

15 was together with us in Brcko. He had been killed.

16 Q. How long did you remain in Bijeljina?

17 A. We remained in Bijeljina until the middle of May.

18 Q. In that time, leading up to the middle of May, whilst you were in

19 Bijeljina, were you mistreated at all?

20 A. We spent our first day there on the premises of the barracks,

21 before being transferred to the gym of the barracks. As soon as we got

22 there, they ordered us to kneel along the wall facing the wall directly

23 but without touching it. And that went on for hours. Soldiers walked

24 behind us, along this line, and beat people on the head or elsewhere on

25 the body at random, and they would always say, "And what have you done?"

Page 6686












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13 English transcripts.













Page 6687

1 Several days later, one evening, soldiers took me out of that gym

2 and on the way, they told me that I stank. We arrived in a bathroom.

3 They turned on a cold shower and left me under it for half an hour,

4 whereas they kept -- they stood by laughing. They asked me if I was

5 cold? And I could hear them, only hear them sharpening their knives,

6 using some sort of object that I couldn't see. But they were leering and

7 laughing, and after this, I was told -- or I was taken back to the gym.

8 Q. Were you clothed?

9 A. I took that shower completely naked. I just picked up my clothes,

10 went to the gym and got dressed there.

11 Q. Now, what I want to know is did they force to you take your

12 clothes off?

13 A. Yes, they did.

14 Q. Did they force you to get into the shower?

15 A. Yes, they did.

16 Q. Was the water cold?

17 A. It was an icy shower.

18 Q. How did you feel after that experience?

19 A. I was shivering with cold, and felt very, very humiliated.

20 Q. Thank you. You say that some of the soldiers finally made an

21 inquiry as to what you had done. In the time that you were in Bijeljina,

22 were you interrogated or asked questions by anyone that gave you any

23 insight or idea as to why it was that you were incarcerated and locked

24 up?

25 A. Yes. I was interrogated by a military man. He conducted the

Page 6688

1 questioning in that gym, calling out individual names. When I came up to

2 him, he asked about my name and surname. He asked me why I had been

3 arrested. And I replied how I was arrested and quoted the reasons that

4 had been given me at the Bosanski Samac SUP. Then he asked if I had been

5 arrested as a civilian? And I answered affirmatively. He took my papers,

6 inspected them, and then he told me, "Mistakes happen in wartime. You

7 will be released soon."

8 Q. When you say you quoted the reasons that had been given to you at

9 the Bosanski Samac SUP, are you referring to what Todorovic had told you,

10 namely the purchase of weapons through your company and shooting from your

11 building?

12 A. Correct. I told him about all the questions that Todorovic had

13 asked me.

14 Q. Were you called upon to sign anything, sign a statement or

15 anything like that?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Can you recall the date from when you were taken away from

18 Bijeljina?

19 A. It was the 13th of May, 1992.

20 Q. Were all of the Bosanski Samac prisoners taken back to Bosanski

21 Samac or were some of them taken elsewhere?

22 A. No. They were not. We heard a helicopter landing in the compound

23 of the barracks in Bijeljina, and after that, several people were taken

24 away in that helicopter. We were told that they were flying to Serbia.

25 Q. Do you know Sulejman Tihic?

Page 6689

1 A. I know him and Sulejman Tihic was in that group that was flown

2 away.

3 Q. Do you know if Dragan Lukac was in that group?

4 A. Yes. He was in it, too.

5 Q. Can you recall any other names of the men who were included in the

6 group that was flown away in the helicopter?

7 A. I don't remember the names of the others but I remember that the

8 pilot of that helicopter was a young man whose name I don't know but the

9 others had recognised him. He too had entered the gym where we were kept,

10 and talked to the people he knew. Since he is much younger than I am, I

11 didn't know him.

12 Q. Okay. Where were you taken in Bosanski Samac?

13 A. When we got there, we stopped by the SUP building and then we

14 continued on to the building of the secondary school.

15 Q. Yes. Please continue your narrative. What happened upon your

16 arrival at the secondary school?

17 A. Soldiers were standing near the door of the bus. Soldiers who

18 lived in villages around Samac. And they would beat everyone who was

19 getting off. And they would ask everyone the same question, "And what

20 have you done?" And they beat people without waiting for an answer. They

21 put us up in the gym, and ordered us to empty our pockets and arrange

22 anything that we had inside the pockets in front of ourselves. After a

23 while, Stevan Todorovic came to the gym, gazed across the gym and then

24 without looking at anyone in particular, he left. Several days later, we

25 were moved to the building of the primary school, which is about a hundred

Page 6690

1 metres away.

2 Q. Thank you. Again, give the Chamber an idea of how long it was

3 that you were incarcerated in the primary school gym.

4 A. I was locked up in the primary school building until the 4th of

5 September, 1992.

6 Q. Thank you. And the time remaining before the break, I'd like you

7 to just give us a general -- give the Chamber a general picture of your

8 treatment there. And then I'll later take to you specific episodes.

9 First of all, were there beatings of the -- of both yourself and other

10 prisoners in the primary school gym?

11 A. They beat people very often.

12 Q. Again, frequency, please? Was this a daily occurrence, did a day

13 ever go past without someone being beaten? And the frequency of beatings,

14 please? How often they would occur, if they were daily?

15 A. Sometimes we would be beaten three or four times in 24 hours,

16 especially during the night. Sometimes we would be beaten for days on

17 end, without interruption. Sometimes there would be a couple of days'

18 interval between beatings.

19 Q. Again I would like to you tell the Chamber if instruments were

20 used? If so, what sort of instruments?

21 A. They used rifle butts, steel bars, wooden sticks, thick lengths of

22 copper wire, truncheons, and according to some logic of our own, we fared

23 the best when they used the truncheons because they inflicted the least

24 injuries.

25 Q. Also, can you tell the Chamber of your assailants? You told us in

Page 6691

1 the TO building they were mainly men of Serbian origin, that is from

2 Serbia itself. But what about in the primary school gym, what sort of

3 people were attacking you and the other prisoners there?

4 A. There were soldiers and policemen from Samac itself, and the

5 environs.

6 Q. Did civilians ever come into the primary school gym, local

7 civilians?

8 A. I don't remember.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honour pleases, I will have to move to

11 specific episodes now. Would this be an appropriate time for the break?

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We can have our break now and resume our

13 proceedings at 1615 hours.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

15 --- Recess taken at 3.43 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 4.16 p.m.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Examination-in-chief is continuing.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.

19 Q. Thank you. Now, you've given us a general description of the sort

20 of attacks that you witnessed in the primary school gym. I'd like to now

21 take you to specific episodes. Firstly, was a man you have already

22 mentioned, Omer Nalic, in custody with you at the primary school gym?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Were you ever beaten with him? Together with him at the same

25 time?

Page 6692

1 A. Yes. It happened one night. They came into the gym. They

2 ordered Omer to stand up. Stevan Todorovic's voice was heard. He ordered

3 a soldier standing next to him to beat Omer Nalic. He beat Omer Nalic,

4 and at the same time, Omer was begging him to stop, saying, "Stevo, why

5 are you beating me? You know that I did nothing wrong." Then Stevan

6 Todorovic said, "The guy next to him." He told me to stand up, I did, and

7 then he hit me with a steel bar over the head. I fell down. I couldn't

8 see because of all the blood that was flowing over my face. He told me to

9 stand up. I couldn't. I didn't have the strength to get up. And then he

10 pushed me in the chest with the steel bar and told me to grab it, that he

11 would pull me up. I grabbed the steel bar and I was able to get up. Then

12 he hit me again several times with the steel bar until I fainted.

13 Q. Can you recall what Omer Nalic was struck with?

14 A. I suppose it was the same steel bar that was used to hit me.

15 Q. What sort of wounds did you suffer as a result of this attack?

16 A. I had gaping wounds on my head. They bled for days, because the

17 lacerations were quite wide and long and they could not heal for a long

18 time. Later on, as the wounds healed -- actually, they were -- they

19 became infected, the areas where I was hit on the head.

20 Q. I take it you never received any medical treatment for --

21 following this particular attack or -- yes, following this particular

22 attack?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Do you know a man named Slavko Trivunovic? I'm sorry, I didn't

25 quite catch your answer. And it has to be clear so that it can be

Page 6693

1 recorded in the transcript. Thank you.

2 A. Yes. Yes. I do know Slavko Trivunovic.

3 Q. Did you see him while you were incarcerated in the primary school

4 gym?

5 A. A group of soldiers came in one evening, two of them took me out

6 into the corridor and took me to the gym. They put me next to the

7 entrance door. Two of them held my hands, standing at my side. One of

8 them pulled me by the hair backwards and the other one opened my mouth.

9 Q. Before we get on to the details, I want this scene to be clear to

10 everyone listening. First of all, were these group -- the group of

11 soldiers, were they local -- local men, or were they from elsewhere?

12 A. They were from the area of Bosanski Samac and the town itself.

13 Q. And what about this man Slavko Trivunovic? What ethnic origin was

14 he? And secondly, was he also from Bosanski Samac?

15 A. He's an ethnic Serb from a village in the vicinity of Bosanski

16 Samac.

17 Q. Had you ever had anything to do with him prior to this encounter

18 in the primary school?

19 A. I did not know him. I had not known him. But later on some

20 people told me what his name was, and what village he was from.

21 Q. Thank you. Now, I'd like you to carry on with your narrative of

22 what -- what happened to you? You got as far as telling the Chamber that

23 two men held your hands, standing at your side, and one of them opened

24 your mouth. Can you tell us if Slavko Trivunovic was there and then

25 proceed with your account of these events?

Page 6694

1 A. Slavko Trivunovic was there. He approached me, laughing at my

2 face, saying, "Now we'll make you more beautiful." Then I felt something

3 metal against my teeth. I felt pain. And I felt my teeth crack. He kept

4 putting metal pliers against my teeth. And sweeping them out. I was

5 trying not to moan because I was standing at the door and my house was

6 quite near. I felt the hot blood in my mouth, and since my head was bent

7 backwards, I found it hard to breathe because of the blood, and Slavko

8 Trivunovic continued putting those steel pliers into my mouth and kept

9 pulling out my teeth. When he was done, the soldiers put me back into the

10 gym. I was afraid I would faint. And I lay on my side in order to keep

11 the blood flowing out of my mouth.

12 Q. How many teeth of yours were pulled out or cracked and damaged by

13 this man?

14 A. In the morning, I found a broken piece of mirror. I went to a

15 corner of the room where nobody could see me. I opened my mouth and I

16 looked. Three teeth had been pulled out from my lower jaw and in my upper

17 jaw, two teeth had been pulled out. There was one tooth still standing.

18 And then another tooth on the other side. So a total of six teeth. Other

19 teeth that he had tried to pull out, I felt pain there, and as I felt with

20 my finger, I could see that other teeth were -- were loose.

21 Q. Did you subsequently lose those teeth or did -- were you able --

22 do they, over time, fix themselves up, and were you able to keep them?

23 A. I lost three more teeth later.

24 Q. Did this man, Slavko Trivunovic, have a nickname?

25 A. His nickname was Harmonikas, the accordion player. That's what we

Page 6695












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13 English transcripts.













Page 6696

1 called him in the camp.

2 Q. Did the guards have a nickname for him?

3 A. I don't know.

4 Q. Were you the only person to be attacked by this man in this

5 fashion?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Can you recall who else was subjected to this torture and how

8 often it occurred?

9 A. That evening, about a third of the men there had their teeth

10 pulled out. While I was there, in the camp, I remember that occasion when

11 people's teeth were pulled out. The next day, Slavko Trivunovic came into

12 the gym. He had the dentist's pliers in his back pocket, and he asked if

13 anyone needed their teeth fixed.

14 Q. Was he a guard at this primary school gym, as far as you're

15 aware? Or was this episode just an occasion when he let himself in and

16 availed himself of various victims?

17 A. He was a guard. Before the event and after the event.

18 Q. Thank you. You earlier testified that you know a man named Milan

19 Simic. In the time that you were at the primary school gym, did you see

20 him?

21 A. Yes, I did. He came one night. He stood in the middle of the

22 room, and he asked us, he said, "Do you know that the president of the new

23 Serbian government is here?" Then he left the room with his escort, and

24 after that, they took some people out. We heard a lot of noise and moans.

25 Q. Thank you. Let's get a few more details. First of all, you say

Page 6697

1 that he came into this -- into the room and made this announcement. Are

2 you referring to the primary school gym?

3 A. He entered the primary school gym, among the prisoners.

4 Q. You say also that he then -- he made his announcement and he then

5 left the room with his escort. What I want to know is, was that just one

6 man or was he accompanied by a group? Can you recall?

7 A. It was a group of people.

8 Q. You say that he came at night. What was the lighting like at the

9 time that he came in and made the announcement about being the president

10 of the new Serb authorities?

11 A. There was no light, but the gym has large windows and I was able

12 to see his face in profile in the moonlight.

13 Q. When he made the announcement, did you recognise his voice?

14 A. Of course I did.

15 Q. Thank you. Now, you say he left with his escort and then there

16 was the sound of moans and so on. Can you just provide a little more

17 detail on what precisely you did hear?

18 A. You could hear the slamming of the doors to the gym. They got in

19 and took out some of the prisoners, and you could hear the racket and the

20 screams caused by pain, blows, again the doors opened, you could hear

21 that, and people were thrown in and other people were taken out. And this

22 was repeated, this whole scene.

23 Q. Thank you. At the time, that is that night, during the night, do

24 you know who -- did you know then who was taken out?

25 A. Muhamed Bicic came to me in the morning and told me, "You can

Page 6698

1 imagine, I was beaten by Milan Simic, and he visited my pizzeria so many

2 times and I bought him drinks so many times."

3 Q. Did Muhamed Bicic bear any signs of a recent attack?

4 A. I don't know whether it was from old wounds or new wounds. There

5 were blood stains on his face, and I tried to wipe them off with a piece

6 of paper.

7 Q. Did you provide any comfort to him or try to provide any comfort

8 to him other than trying to wipe off the blood with a piece of paper?

9 A. I remained sitting next to him. I tried to give him some kind of

10 psychological support to make it easier for him to forget that night and

11 to instil some hope in him that we would be able to survive all this.

12 Q. Thank you. Okay. I want to ask you if, during the period of time

13 that you were incarcerated in the primary school gym, whether you received

14 any visits from your wife?

15 A. My wife managed to have some sandwiches delivered to me and to the

16 other prisoners I shared those sandwiches with. She did it through some

17 of the guards.

18 Q. How often did this take place? How often would she successfully

19 get food to you?

20 A. It all depended on who the guards on duty were. Sometimes she

21 would manage to do that twice a week and sometimes once every fortnight.

22 So it's really hard to say, that it was often. It was in fact quite

23 seldom. But it did help us to survive.

24 Q. In that time, were you able to see your children? In the time

25 that you were at the primary school gym?

Page 6699

1 A. Once.

2 Q. Did anyone ever interfere or try to prevent your wife gaining

3 access to you?

4 A. There was a corridor leading to the gym, and there was another

5 small room which used to be a locker room, about two by two metres large,

6 and there was a small window with bars. We were allowed to smoke in that

7 room when we had cigarettes and we were able to look out. On one

8 occasion, I saw Savo Cancarevic getting out of the car and threatening the

9 guards, telling them not to let any women with food in. If they did not

10 comply with that order, they would be held responsible. At that time,

11 Savo Cancarevic was the police chief.

12 Q. Was there any sort of coherent system of shifts, as far as the

13 guards were concerned? That is, would they change shifts at regular

14 times, according to a regular pattern, or was it completely ad hoc and not

15 capable of prediction?

16 A. We did not know when the shifts changed.

17 Q. Was that because there was no regularity as to when they would

18 change?

19 A. The guards changed in the following way: Usually those who were

20 on at night would remain until the morning, but -- and also they would

21 change during the day, but I do not know the exact hours when they

22 changed.

23 Q. You've mentioned that your wife's delivery of food on -- helped

24 you to survive. Can you tell the Chamber, other than what your wife gave

25 you, the sort of rations that were being provided to the prisoners,

Page 6700

1 please?

2 A. For a time, it was quite difficult to subsist on the food rations

3 that we received. We would be given a piece of bread, a spoonful of jam,

4 and something that one could call tea, could pass for tea, and that's what

5 we had.

6 Q. How often were the prisoners fed? Perhaps I should clarify that.

7 How often per day were the prisoners fed?

8 A. Once a day.

9 Q. So once a day they got a piece of bread a spoonful of jam and

10 something that one might call tea? Is that a correct assessment of your

11 food rations?

12 A. Yes, that is correct.

13 Q. How long did that sort of -- how long were those sorts of rations

14 provided to the prisoners, over what period of time?

15 A. I can't say with any certainty, but it was a period of perhaps a

16 month and a half. This was the period when we were given a piece of

17 bread, spoonful of jam and a cup of tea.

18 Q. Okay. Let me approach the issue this way. You were transferred

19 to the primary school gym around the 13th of May, I think you said; is

20 that right?

21 A. On the 13th of May, I arrived in Samac. First we were in the

22 secondary school gym and then, after a day or two, we were transferred to

23 the elementary school gym.

24 Q. Okay. Were you exchanged and if so, what was the date of your

25 exchange?

Page 6701

1 A. On the 4th of September, 1992.

2 Q. For the last 15 days or so before your exchange, were you in the

3 primary school gym or elsewhere?

4 A. No. I was transferred once again to the TO building.

5 Q. Okay. Now, I'm interested in the period of time between the 13th

6 of May and the period of time from, say, mid-August, 1992. Now, during

7 that time, you were basically in the primary school gym. The food that

8 you received during that period of time, you've already described what you

9 were receiving, marmalade -- a slice of bread, a bit of marmalade and tea

10 once a day. Did that pattern change at all during the time that you were

11 in the primary school gym?

12 A. No.

13 Q. When you were eventually exchanged, had you lost weight?

14 A. When I was exchanged, I had lost about 30 kilos.

15 Q. Thank you. Did you ever see what the guards had to eat?

16 A. I couldn't see what they had to eat, but they looked quite normal,

17 in terms of weight and appearance. I suppose they didn't lack food.

18 Q. Okay. You say that you were transferred for the last 15 days or

19 so, before you were exchanged to the TO building, in that period of time,

20 were you beaten?

21 A. I wasn't beaten inside the TO building.

22 Q. In that last 15 days or so that -- when you were in the TO

23 building, were you beaten anywhere at all?

24 A. No.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the witness be shown P49, please, and perhaps

Page 6702

1 the B/C/S version as well, P49 ter ought to be provided to him.

2 For the purposes of my examination-in-chief, I don't need the ELMO

3 to be used but if the Defence want the B/C/S to be put on it, I'll --

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Perhaps we should have it on the ELMO, the

5 B/C/S.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

7 Q. I think you're familiar with this document, aren't you?

8 A. Yes, I am.

9 Q. Before April of 1992 -- yeah, April of 1992, were you the owner of

10 a Zastava 101, which is a car?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I take it that in the Bosnia of April of 1992, there were in place

13 systems of registration of motor vehicles?

14 A. Yes, there were.

15 Q. Whereby the owner of a vehicle would register himself or provide

16 information to the authorities, as the owner of a vehicle -- as being the

17 owner of a vehicle?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, you were married at that time to your wife, Snjezana.

20 Thinking back to April of 1992, who was the registered -- the

21 registered -- owner of the vehicle?

22 A. I was.

23 Q. This document purports to say that your vehicle, of which you are

24 the registered owner, the Zastava was being requisitioned on behalf of the

25 Bosanski Samac Crisis Staff. Did anyone ever approach you at the primary

Page 6703

1 school gym and show you this document or inform thaw your car was going to

2 be confiscated?

3 A. No. Nobody did.

4 Q. When did you first lay eyes on this document?

5 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Di Fazio, the document, I don't

6 have the English translation obviously in front of me here but it was

7 using the term requisitioned, was it not? You just used the term

8 "confiscated."

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Perhaps I fell into error there. I perhaps should

10 stick to the terms of the document itself. I'm glad that Your Honour has

11 pointed that out to me. Yes. I'll make sure that that's pointed out to

12 the witness.

13 Q. Now, as Her Honour correctly pointed out the document says that

14 your Zastava car was being requisitioned, not confiscated. That was my

15 error, okay? But in the period of time that were you in the primary

16 school gym, any time that you were in Bosanski Samac leading up to your

17 exchange, did anyone from the Crisis Staff or a representative of the

18 Crisis Staff come along and inform you, you, the registered owner of this

19 vehicle, that was being requisitioned by the Crisis Staff?

20 A. No, no one.

21 Q. And what about on the actual day of your exchange? Was care taken

22 to ensure that you received a copy of this document or that you were

23 informed that your car had been requisitioned, before you left Bosanski

24 Samac?

25 A. Nobody gave me anything.

Page 6704












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13 English transcripts.













Page 6705

1 Q. In fact, when did you first lay eyes on this document?

2 A. I saw this document after the exchange, when it was shown to me by

3 my wife.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Mr. Usher, I've finished with the document.

6 Q. I'll come back to the topic of property in a while but now I want

7 you to think about the -- your exchange on the 4th of September, and those

8 events. You, I think, were incarcerated in the TO on the 4th of September

9 when were you taken -- when you were finally exchanged?

10 A. I didn't get the complete translation on this.

11 Q. I'm sorry. I'll ask the question again. I'll return to the topic

12 of your property in a while but I want you to think now about the events

13 of your exchange on the 4th of September. At the time, were you still

14 incarcerated in the TO building?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. In the period of time that you were in custody, had you become

17 aware of the phenomenon of exchanges? That is people, prisoners, being

18 exchanged by both sides and whatever sides in the conflict?

19 A. Exchanges existed even before that date, and certain individuals

20 who had been imprisoned with me had been exchanged before I was.

21 Q. Did you hope to be exchanged?

22 A. I didn't know anything about these exchanges.

23 Q. On the morning of the 4th of September, did you know that you were

24 going to be exchanged?

25 A. On the morning of the 4th of September, a policeman came and

Page 6706

1 called out my name. He told me to follow him. We walked to the SUP

2 building. In the hallway of that building, he told me to stop and wait

3 for him there. I waited for half an hour while he went off somewhere.

4 And then he came back and told me to follow him again. We got into a car

5 and when we were inside the car, he told me, "You are going to be

6 exchanged now."

7 Q. Up until that point, had you had any idea that that was going to

8 happen to you?

9 A. I was afraid they were taking me again for interrogation at the

10 SUP.

11 Q. Yes. But had you had any idea up until that time, that that was

12 going to happen to you?

13 A. No, I didn't.

14 Q. Had anyone consulted with you as to whether or not you wished to

15 be exchanged?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Thank you. Please proceed in your narrative about the exchange.

18 You told us that you got to the SUP and got into the car with this

19 policeman. Carry on from there, please.

20 A. When we got into the car, the policeman told me that we were going

21 for an exchange. He took me again to the gym of the primary school, and

22 there was a number of people in the gym already. At that point, I asked

23 another policeman if I could see my wife and children before the

24 exchange. He replied, "They are coming with you." And that is when I

25 learned that my wife and children are coming with me to be exchanged.

Page 6707

1 They arrived half an hour later.

2 Q. Okay. I want to -- the Trial Chamber to get a picture of the sort

3 of people who were being assembled for this exchange. Obviously, there

4 was at least one prisoner, that being you, and obviously, there were some

5 civilians, that being your wife. Can you give us a breakdown of the other

6 people who were assembled ready to be exchanged? Were some of them

7 prisoners, some of them civilians?

8 A. There were several people who had been incarcerated.

9 Q. Incarcerated with you in the primary school gym?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. And what about the civilians? Were there men, women and

12 children? Young and old? Just give us a general picture.

13 A. There were old people, children and women among them.

14 Q. What about their possessions? Was there any facility made for the

15 transport of their possessions? Or was it just restricted to what they

16 could carry?

17 A. My wife told me that they said one could take one travel bag of

18 personal belongings, no electrical appliances, just footwear and clothing.

19 Q. You'd had your teeth pulled out, and I assume there were gaps in

20 your teeth when you smiled -- in your mouth, I should say when you

21 smiled. How did you feel about showing that to your wife?

22 A. At the outset, I tried to cover my mouth with my hand,

23 self-consciously, until she told me to stop doing that, and when she saw

24 my mouth, I saw she was shocked, but we both tried hard to -- not to let

25 the children see it.

Page 6708

1 Q. Thank you. And I take it everyone was loaded on to the buses and

2 everyone took off and eventually you reached your destination in Croatia;

3 is that correct?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. During the trip, indeed at any point in the trip, did you see any

6 of the defendants present?

7 A. I saw Miroslav Tadic.

8 Q. Can you recall where you saw him? What he was doing when you saw

9 him?

10 A. When we were stopped at Bosanska Gradiska, I could see, looking

11 through the window, Miroslav Tadic sitting in an outdoor cafe, together

12 with some other people. They were having refreshments. And I also saw

13 him during the exchange itself. That was in Dragalici.

14 Q. And is that in Croatia?

15 A. That is Croatia, yes.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours just bear with me for one

17 moment, please?


19 [Prosecution counsel confer]

20 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I'd like to show the -- a

21 portion of Exhibit P27 which shows the exchanges. It's a short portion of

22 that particular videotape. It lasts in my estimation, about seven to

23 eight minutes and I would like it to be shown together with transcript.

24 The transcript, in fact, is Exhibit P27A and there was an addition to that

25 a portion of the transcript that was added on which was the transcript of

Page 6709

1 some German text, and it's been referred to, I know for sure, because I've

2 checked the transcript and it was provided to the Chamber during the

3 evidence of Dragan Lukic. I think it's just been made part of P27 but in

4 fact they are two separate documents. P27A is -- contains the bulk of the

5 transcript of the video and then I provided a little extra bit which was

6 merely the -- merely the text, the German text. Now, I would hope that

7 that's with the Chamber -- with the Registry.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, maybe she can check and find out what -- how

9 many pieces of transcript she has.

10 THE REGISTRAR: I'm sorry, Your Honours, Registry has P27A, which

11 is the English translation of P27A ter, which is the B/C/S version of P27,

12 the exchange of prisoners. And as it was confirmed with the case manager

13 this morning, the German bit is not included in this portion. Thank you.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: I see.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe it was not formally admitted into evidence.

16 It might have been referred to.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: I think that maybe that's happened. If that's the

18 case, can I provide now a copy of the translation.


20 MR. DI FAZIO: I don't know if you want it simply to be added to

21 P27A or whether you think we should give it a separate exhibit number?

22 JUDGE MUMBA: I think because it's parts of the same video

23 footage, isn't it?

24 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: So it can have a slash, I think. It's a

Page 6710

1 Prosecution -- so you can have P27A/1.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I've got several copies here.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: And P27A/1 ter. Since it's in German, I don't know

4 whether we should use ter.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: I can provide copies to the Defence if they don't

6 have any handy at the moment.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have it just formally entered?

8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. This extract, translation of

9 the German text, will be P27A/1. Thank you.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. And if Your Honours please, to assist

11 you, you will see that the German text is -- consists of two paragraphs.

12 At the top of the page, there is a paragraph that presumably comes in the

13 videotape at the point 29.08.


15 MR. DI FAZIO: You will see that. That's to be -- if you want to

16 follow it, you will have to follow it in P27A at page 13. If you turn to

17 P27A and go to page 13, at the bottom of the page, you'll see text in

18 German. Do you see that?


20 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, that's where you would insert the first

21 paragraph, 20, 2908. It says, "Text in German," and to follow the text in

22 German, that's where it would be. 2908. Then if you continue turning

23 over the pages of P27A, you get to page 15. About a third of the way

24 down, do you see, "Text in German"?

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.

Page 6711

1 MR. DI FAZIO: And that would be the second part of the German

2 text. And that would be from point 33.32 of the text. I hope that's

3 clear.

4 I would ask that the technical services people who already have

5 the exhibit in the booth shortly begin to play the video.

6 Q. Mr. Delic, I would like to you watch the video.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: And Mr. Usher, can we make sure he can see it

8 clearly on the screen?

9 Q. And I'd just like you to watch the screen, carefully follow the

10 text, as far as you can, and I'll ask you some questions about the people

11 you can see in the text -- in the video. Thank you.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: If the technical booth could now start the video?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. The audio is very bad

14 and the translation, too.


16 Q. Can you hear me now?

17 A. I have interference. It's all right now. It's all right now.

18 Q. I just said that I'm going to show you a videotape and I'd like

19 you to follow it. I may stop it from time to time and just ask you one or

20 two short questions about the people depicted in the tape. Okay?

21 MR. DI FAZIO: And if the technical people could now start running

22 it?

23 [Videotape played]

24 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

25 Q. You were in the camp and what you were through, now we've

Page 6712

1 heard you've lost about 40 kilos.

2 A. I was in several camps. I don't remember all of them.

3 In Bosanski Samac, in Bijeljina, in Brcko. What can I tell

4 you? I'm lucky to have come here alive.

5 Q. How was it in the camp?

6 A. Awful, beatings every day. They broke us, it wasn't

7 simple beating. I don't know why they beat us so much.

8 Q. Thank you. How many kilos have you lost?

9 A. Certainly about 30.

10 Q. What did you get to eat or what didn't you get to eat?

11 A. We got a slice of bread, thinly spread with marmalade and

12 a cup of tea.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Stop there, please. Would you just rewind it

14 briefly, please? Slowly? Thank you. Just stop there.

15 Q. First of all, the man who was speaking before, describing the loss

16 of 30 kilograms and so on, do you recognise that chap?

17 A. Yes. That's Muhamed Bicic.

18 Q. Was he exchanged on the same day as you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What about these two that you can see in the screen now? Do you

21 recognise them?

22 A. The man in blue is one of the Stjepanovic brothers, and next to

23 him is a German citizen.

24 Q. Okay. If you know the name of the German citizen, German

25 gentleman, I'd ask you not to mention it in your evidence. We'll just

Page 6713












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 6714

1 call him the German, okay? First of all, was he -- this German, was he

2 ever incarcerate with you in -- well in any of the places you've

3 described?

4 A. The last 15 days before the exchange, in the TO building.

5 Q. Was anyone able to communicate with him in the TO building?

6 A. He was with us, with the prisoners. When I was transferred from

7 the elementary school gym he was already in the TO building.

8 Q. Did you ever hear of any reason as to why this man had been

9 incarcerated?

10 A. He travelled from Germany to the town of Gradacac, which is 20

11 kilometres away from Samac. He had with him some goods for the textile

12 factory.

13 Q. Thank you. Now, witness, you may not be able to follow the next

14 portion of text because it may be in German but I'll just ask to you watch

15 it briefly.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, you can follow the next

17 portion of what the man says by reference to paragraph 2908 on the

18 additional transcript. And with the technical services, may I ask them to

19 continue?

20 [Videotape played]

21 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

22 A. This is a German. He was in the camp. [German spoken, no

23 interpretation] What can I say? It was horrible.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: Can you stop there?

25 Q. Again, was that the brother that you mentioned earlier, one of the

Page 6715

1 Stjepanovic brothers?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Could we continue, please

5 [Videotape played]

6 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

7 Q. Where were you?

8 A. In Bosanski Samac, in Brcko, in Bijeljina, and then again

9 in Bosanski Samac. And we were beaten the worst in Bosanski

10 Samac.

11 Q. What did they use to beat you?

12 A. Everything. That's all that I have to say.

13 Q. Can you give a statement for the HTV?"

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Can you stop there, please.

15 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

16 A. Please don't ask me anything I'm not in a position to

17 speak. I don't feel like speaking anything.

18 Q. Could you just --


20 Q. Who is that man?

21 A. That's me.

22 Q. Had you had a hair cut before the exchange?

23 A. When I arrived at the TO building, they cut our hair there.

24 Q. What about a shave? You look as if you've had a recent shave

25 there. When did you shave before this exchange?

Page 6716

1 A. Yes. I did shave.

2 Q. Who gave you the clothes you're wearing?

3 A. Some of the clothes I had from before. And some pieces of

4 clothing I had taken out of the bag that my wife had brought with her when

5 she came to be exchanged.

6 Q. Okay.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: If the technical services people could please

8 continue?

9 [Videotape played]

10 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

11 Q. Where were you?

12 A. In Bosanski Samac.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Could the technical services people stop it there

14 and just wind it back a bit now? Wind it back slowly? If you could keep

15 on winding backwards, please? Okay. Stop it there.

16 Q. Who is the blonde woman?

17 A. That's my wife.

18 Q. Thanks.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: Please continue.

20 [Videotape played]

21 MR. DI FAZIO: Stop it there, please, and just rewind it briefly.

22 Stop there, please.

23 Q. Okay. Now the gentleman with the beard holding the piece of

24 paper, who is that?

25 A. That's Miroslav Tadic.

Page 6717

1 Q. Okay. Thank you.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Please continue.

3 [Videotape played]

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Stop there, please.

5 Q. Who is that man?

6 A. That's the Catholic priest from one of the villages.

7 Q. Had he been incarcerated with you in the primary school gym?

8 A. No. He was incarcerated in the TO. So I spent the last 15 days

9 of my imprisonment with him.

10 Q. Can you remember what his name was?

11 A. No, I can't recall it now.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Thank you. In fact I think I'm done with the

13 tape and I don't need to show it any more. Perhaps the technical services

14 men can let the Registry have it back.

15 If Your Honours please, I think I owe an apology to the

16 interpreters. I had in fact prepared text to be given to them, but I

17 realised when I got to this point in my examination-in-chief that I've

18 mislaid it and brought it back so I'm grateful to them for interpreting on

19 the spur of the moment, as it were.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well, then.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

22 Q. I want to just return to a couple of issues that -- of your life

23 in Bosanski Samac. First of all, the interrogations. You have already

24 described one interrogation that took place in Bijeljina. Were you ever

25 interrogated in Bosanski Samac?

Page 6718

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Where was that and who interrogated you?

3 A. In the Bosanski Samac SUP. I don't remember the name of the

4 police inspector who interrogated me.

5 Q. And was this during the period of time in which you were

6 incarcerated in the primary school gym?

7 A. Yes, that is correct.

8 Q. What did they want to know?

9 A. When I got there, he asked me if I knew why I had been

10 imprisoned. I told him -- I repeated the thing that Stevan Todorovic told

11 me when he arrested me. He then asked me if I was a member of the SDA, to

12 which I replied that I was not. He went through some papers and told me

13 that it was fine, that I was not on the list. Then he asked me whether I

14 was a member of the League of Communists of Yugoslavia and when I left the

15 party and that's all that I remember of the interrogation.

16 Q. If you can tell us, please do. What I want to know is this: You

17 say that he asked you if you knew why you had been imprisoned. Was this

18 some sort of quiz, do you think? Or was that, in your view, a genuine

19 question, he was that actually asking you what the reason was for your

20 incarceration?

21 A. He asked me, "Do you know why you had been imprisoned?" I said,

22 "No, I don't know. The only thing I know is the thing that I was told by

23 Stevan Todorovic at the time when I was arrested about what I had to be

24 interrogated and the accusations that he levied against me at the time".

25 Q. Did he confirm that that was in fact the reason all of this had

Page 6719

1 happened to you?

2 A. No.

3 Q. In all those months that you were incarcerated in Bosanski Samac,

4 in Brcko and Bijeljina and back there, did anyone, other than what

5 Todorovic said, give you some sort of idea as to what it was that you had

6 done to cause your imprisonment?

7 A. No, nobody, never.

8 Q. No document, to charge sheet, no formal sort of accusation?

9 A. Never. I was never given anything.

10 Q. Okay. Go back to the meeting in the SUP, and this interrogation.

11 Were you asked to sign anything?

12 A. While I was giving my statement, a woman was typing, and they

13 offered me this to sign immediately.

14 Q. Did you sign it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you check the contents of what you were signing?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Was there any reason for your failure to do so?

19 A. I wouldn't dare to make any comments or to disagree with anything

20 that was written there. I was under arrest, and I knew that any remarks

21 that I might have made would have been to no avail.

22 Q. You've described your -- the episode where your teeth were

23 pulled. Can you tell us if you were interrogated after you had had your

24 teeth pulled by Slavko Trivunovic?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6720

1 Q. Would your interrogator, whoever he was, have had an opportunity

2 of seeing your missing teeth?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And can you comment on the sort of condition that you were in

5 during the course of this interrogation or this -- whatever it was? I'm

6 thinking about now of your -- apart from your teeth and anything on your

7 face and what your clothing looked like, those sorts of issues.

8 A. At the time, I had many scars and a couple of open wounds on my

9 head.

10 Q. Did your interrogator make any inquiry as to how those wounds came

11 to be there? How it was that you were missing teeth?

12 A. No, he didn't ask me that.

13 Q. Were you ever given a copy of this document that you signed?

14 A. No, I was not.

15 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to turn briefly to the issue of your

16 property. You've already described some of the property that you had,

17 namely your car but I'd like to know a bit more about your home. Did you

18 own the apartment that you were living in or have any sort of rights over

19 that apartment?

20 A. I had the tenancy right of a house, an employee of my company

21 lived on the first floor and I lived on the second floor, and in the

22 attic, so I had the tenancy right to this apartment which had an area of

23 130 square metres.

24 Q. If all of these events that we have been talking about hadn't

25 happened, and life had continued as normal, would you have been in a

Page 6721

1 position to hand on this apartment to your children, in other words to

2 provide them with an inheritance?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Can I ask you now to tell the Court what sort of personal property

5 you had before April of 1992? I'm talking about household possessions,

6 any machinery that you might have owned, that sort of thing.

7 A. The apartment was fully furnished with all the appliances. In

8 addition to that, I had built another building, a large garage, in my

9 yard. And there I had various tools, a metal press, and a special

10 sharpener, a machine for sharpening knives used in the paper industry. I

11 also had some smaller welding machinery. I had stocks of sheet metal that

12 could be used for further production. So this was an activity that I

13 engaged in, in addition to my regular employment in the company where I

14 worked.

15 Q. Following your arrest, did you ever see any of that stuff again?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Can you tell the Chamber what your wife took out with her in her

18 bag on the day of your exchange?

19 A. She took some trousers, some shirts, and a jacket for me, some

20 clothes for the children, and for herself, and most important of all for

21 us, many of the photographs that we had.

22 Q. I asked you if any of the authorities in Bosanski Samac had said

23 anything to you about your car that had been requisitioned at the time of

24 your exchange. Was anything said to you at the time of your exchange, or

25 subsequently, as to anything that you might do to recover this sort of

Page 6722












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 6723

1 property, the stuff that you'd kept in your garage, your personal

2 household effects, that sort of stuff?

3 A. No. I wasn't told anything.

4 Q. Have you ever been back to Bosanski Samac since the 4th of

5 September, 1992?

6 A. No. I have never gone back since that date.

7 Q. On the night of the 16th of April, 1992, did you have any plans to

8 leave your life in Bosnia and Bosanski Samac, any desire to do so?

9 A. No. I had no such plans.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I have no further questions.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Cross-examination?

12 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic?

14 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have a second just to prepare the

15 earphones and the microphone?

16 Cross-examined by Mr. Pantelic:

17 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Delic. Could you please tell

18 me, you were a manager of the Mebos factory in Bosanski Samac before May,

19 1992; is that correct?

20 A. I was the chairman of the board of management.

21 Q. Yes, but it's a position in the management?

22 A. Yes, but there is a difference there.

23 Q. If you could just make a pause of a few seconds between my

24 question and your answer, because we speak roughly the same language. Do

25 you accept that?

Page 6724

1 So you were a manager, you had a position in the management?

2 A. I repeat. I was the chairman of the board of management.

3 Q. Can we agree that you had a position in the management?

4 A. Yes, that is correct.

5 Q. For a long time, you were a member -- you were in a managerial

6 position in that company in the communist era; is that correct?

7 A. I was in the company from 1976.

8 Q. Could you please tell me, that was in the communist period, was it

9 not?

10 A. I don't know what you mean by communism. Do you mean it was in

11 the time when the Socialist Party was in government?

12 Q. Well, this is a simple question, whether this was a period where

13 the Communist Party was in power?

14 A. There is a difference between communism and socialism.

15 Q. Okay. So you had a managerial position in that company at the

16 time where the Communist Party of Yugoslavia was in power, in a social

17 system which was called socialism, yes or no?

18 A. I worked there from 1976 and first I started working in the design

19 office. Then I was in the manager of the production. And in the end, I

20 became a member -- the chairman of the board of management.

21 Q. Mr. Delic, let me ask you this question again. Were you in a

22 managerial position in the Mebos company at the time when, in the former

23 Yugoslavia, the League of Communists of Yugoslavia was in power in a

24 social system that is called socialism? I don't want to you get into your

25 professional background. Could you please just answer my question with

Page 6725

1 either yes or no? And then we can move on.

2 A. It was the one-party system and I did work in Mebos.

3 Q. One party, yes, but which party? Could you please tell the Trial

4 Chamber?

5 A. It was the Socialist Party.

6 Q. When was the Socialist Party established?

7 MR. DI FAZIO: I object to the question if Your Honours please,

8 and I should have objected earlier but I was trying to see where it was

9 leading. I can see it's leading no where and therefore I object to the

10 question. This witness --

11 MR. PANTELIC: You should wait.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: This witness is not obliged to provide a history of

13 the former Yugoslavia. He is here to give evidence of direct events of

14 his experiences and what he saw and observed in Bosnia and Bosanski Samac

15 at the relevant time. Now --

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may, Your Honours, I have not

17 received the interpretation of the words spoken by the Prosecution.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we -- maybe the interpreters have got it now.

19 Can Mr. Di Fazio repeat the objection?

20 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll do that. My objection, if Your Honours

21 please, is this: This witness is not obliged to provide a history of the

22 former Yugoslavia. His primary task is here to give evidence of what he

23 saw and observed during the events of 1992 in Bosanski Samac. It is, with

24 respect, completely irrelevant for him to provide a history lesson or to

25 provide any sort of detailed political analysis of when the Socialist

Page 6726

1 Party was formed and so on and so forth. For whatever reason,

2 Mr. Pantelic thinks these relevant, then he can introduce evidence of

3 that.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic, I think we have heard enough

5 about this question. What is important is that the witness has explained

6 as to when he was employed in this company. So you may move on.

7 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, actually, that is the -- my question, and I'm

8 waiting so much time, Your Honours, with this very simple questions. You

9 were a witness that was nothing is in that and I was obliged actually to

10 put ten or 15 questions for a very simple question because obviously this

11 witness is mixing Socialist Party and Communist Party and I don't know how

12 to proceed.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: That is --

14 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no. He is not. He's answering the question

15 according to the way he understands it. In any case, what the Prosecution

16 has said stands.

17 MR. PANTELIC: Okay, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: He is not here to give evidence on the political

19 history of the former Yugoslavia.

20 MR. PANTELIC: It was not my intention at all, Your Honour. You

21 will see with my next question that it was not my intention, but I

22 unfortunately spent so much time to speaking --

23 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Actually, Mr. Pantelic, I think the witness did

24 almost at the outset stress that he began work at the Mebos company in

25 1976. So we have that, and if that's what you're interested in, we can

Page 6727

1 just go from there.

2 MR. PANTELIC: In fact I'm not interested, it's just a

3 corroborative moment.

4 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Delic, was it possible for you, as a person

5 in a managerial position in Mebos during the socialist regime, that you

6 have your own privately run business? Is it possible or not?

7 A. If it had been impossible, I would not have had it.

8 Q. My next question. This private workshop of yours, was it properly

9 registered?

10 A. Of course it was.

11 Q. And you were paying taxes?

12 A. Of course.

13 Q. Did you have employees?

14 A. No, I didn't.

15 Q. So you worked on your own after your normal working hours?

16 A. I worked on Saturdays.

17 Q. What did you produce in that workshop of yours?

18 A. I produced metal-base plates for various -- for a farm, for a

19 chicken farm, for a furniture production, production of chairs, tables and

20 suchlike.

21 Q. Did you sell those products at the company where you worked?

22 A. No, I didn't.

23 Q. Your business partners who purchased those products that you

24 produced, did they sell it to your company?

25 A. No, they didn't.

Page 6728

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic, I think we can have our break and

2 resume at 18 hours.

3 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour, because we are working until 7.00

4 today.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, that's correct. We will have our break and

6 resume our proceedings at 18 hours.

7 --- Recess taken at 5.47 p.m.

8 --- On resuming at 6.02 p.m.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, cross-examination continues, Mr. Pantelic.

10 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honours.

11 Q. [Interpretation] Before April, 1992, a rift started in Bosanski

12 Samac among the three constituent nations, Serbs, Muslims and Croats;

13 isn't that right?

14 A. Yes. There lived three constituent nations.

15 Q. In the period prior to April, 1992, specifically between October,

16 1991 and April of 1992, did those three ethnic groups live in harmony in

17 the town of Samac?

18 A. I personally had a fine relationship with everyone.

19 Q. Did you notice that the interrelations among the three ethnic

20 groups had changed in any way as compared to ten years prior?

21 A. No, I didn't.

22 Q. Can I then conclude that your personal observations of the

23 interrelations among the three ethnic groups, between October 1991 and

24 April 1992 were that these groups lived in harmony and mutual tolerance?

25 A. I had good relations with everyone.

Page 6729

1 Q. I understand, as far as you are concerned, but in your every day

2 life, while you moved around the town or when you occupied such a high

3 position in the Mebos factory or in conversation with your friends, did

4 you notice any internecine tension?

5 A. In my company, and among the people I consorted with, I didn't

6 notice any such thing.

7 Q. You never heard anything about illegal arming?

8 A. No, I didn't.

9 Q. You never noticed that Muslims frequented Muslim-owned cafes,

10 Serbs frequented Serb-owned cafes and Croats went to Croat-owned cafes?

11 A. No, I didn't notice that.

12 Q. Did you notice when Serb refugees from Vukovar to Samac in the end

13 of 1991?

14 A. I didn't notice any refugees.

15 Q. When you went together with other prisoners from the TO building

16 to the Utva canteen for lunch, in your statement and during preparations

17 for your testimony here, in some papers we got from the OTP, you said that

18 Blagoje Simic was ten or 15 metres away from you?

19 A. First you said that we spoke roughly the same language and then

20 you used the term "when you went." We didn't go. We were driven under

21 armed escort to the Utva factory. This distance here in the courtroom is

22 a distance I consider to be ten or 15 metres.

23 Q. There were other prisoners around you, weren't there?

24 A. I was always in a group of prisoners.

25 Q. Was Blagoje Simic part of a group?

Page 6730

1 A. There were two or three men standing along side Blagoje Simic.

2 Q. So it would be logical to assume that he wasn't perhaps looking at

3 you standing at that distance?

4 A. I said he was looking directly at me, directly at us, in fact, and

5 specifically at me. He was facing us. He was looking at us and he was

6 looking specifically at me. I have already stated this.

7 Q. But Blagoje Simic says that he never looked at you, and that he

8 doesn't remember that scene, that event, at all.

9 A. I have no comment to that.

10 Q. When you were transferred from Bijeljina in mid-May to Samac, you

11 were first housed in the secondary school building?

12 A. In the gym of the secondary school.

13 Q. How long did you spend there?

14 A. A day or two.

15 Q. In that period, when Stiv Todorovic came there, who was he

16 accompanied by?

17 A. What did you say? You mean Stevan Todorovic.

18 Q. Yes, I mean Stevan Todorovic.

19 A. He came through the door alone. The guards were in the gym.

20 Q. Was Muhamed Bicic together in the gym with you?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Was Hasan Bicic there?

23 A. I think so.

24 MR. PANTELIC: Just a second, Your Honour. I have to check

25 whether some of these names are protected. I don't want to be --

Page 6731












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 6732



3 Q. [Interpretation] Right. Was Ibrahim Salkic, nicknamed Ibela there

4 in the gym?

5 A. We had all arrived together on a bus from Bijeljina.

6 Q. No, no. My question is, was Ibrahim Salkic, nicknamed Ibela,

7 together with you in that gym during those three days, yes, no, or you

8 don't remember?

9 A. I think he was.

10 MR. PANTELIC: Now we can go in private because I will mention the

11 name of the Witness N.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Can we move into private session?

13 [Private session]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [Open session]

23 JUDGE MUMBA: We are back into open session.

24 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

25 Q. [Interpretation] So did Stevan Todorovic show up at the secondary

Page 6733

1 school only once in those couple of days?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did Blagoje Simic come to the secondary school at any point?

4 A. No, not at the gym.

5 Q. During your imprisonment in Samac, Samac was under shelling,

6 wasn't it?

7 A. We could hear explosions but we didn't know where.

8 Q. You wrote a book titled "Be Brave and Forget Nothing"; right?

9 A. That is correct.

10 Q. It speaks about the time of your imprisonment in Samac, doesn't

11 it?

12 A. You could say so.

13 Q. I will read to you from page 75, written in your hand, chapter 18,

14 titled, "Interrogation." I will read out one sentence. "For the

15 umpteenth time this town is being shelled. When a shell exploded very

16 close by, recently, I remained unusually calm." You did write this,

17 didn't you?

18 A. I don't remember that part. I would have to look -- see the book.

19 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, can I just show the -- well, work in

20 question, I would say, the book in question.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you can show the witness.

22 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.

23 Q. [Interpretation] So, Mr. Delic, it's the last sentence on the

24 right page, and it continues on the left page. Will you please look at

25 the bottom of the right page? Highlighted in yellow. Can you see it? Is

Page 6734

1 it exactly what I've just read?

2 A. Your Honours, this is an unofficial book. The official version of

3 the book was published in one of the European countries in one of the

4 European languages, and these are only drafts that I used to write this --

5 that book. This book was never published anywhere.

6 Q. All right. So let us call them notes. In those notes that I read

7 out, is it true what I read out about the shelling?

8 JUDGE MUMBA: That's the only part you want the witness to

9 answer. Yes?


11 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe he was trying to correct the fact that that

12 was not the actual book.

13 MR. PANTELIC: -- to us whether in this draft he said that, yes or

14 no, very simple.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, the witness can answer that.

16 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As compared to this manuscript, the

18 final version in one European language that was eventually published,

19 underwent certain changes, and it is possible that those changes affected

20 this particular part.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: No. What counsel asked, whether you call it a

22 manuscript for the time being maybe, it's a manuscript, he read a

23 particular part of the manuscript, and all you have to say is whether or

24 not that is the correct text in that manuscript. Not the truthfulness of

25 what was stated, no, just what the counsel read to you.

Page 6735

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If he could kindly read it once

2 again?

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

4 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honours.

5 Q. "For the umpteenth time the town is being shelled. When a shell

6 exploded very close by recently, I remained unusually calm."

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MR. PANTELIC: I'm a little bit confused, Your Honours, because

10 our learned friends provided us on the 1st of March with the short memo

11 regarding the -- some minor errors in his language statement from January,

12 1995, inter alia on page 2. My learned friend, Mr. Di Fazio, mentioned

13 that in this statement, second paragraph, related to his military service,

14 now, during his -- I would say, preparation for this testimony, he said

15 that he was not in military in 1997 but in -- sorry, that he was not in

16 army in 1979 but in 1977. In his statement, he said that he was in army

17 in 1979 and before this Trial Chamber he also testified that he was in

18 army in 1979. In fact it is absolutely not of any importance, this issue,

19 but still, due to the fact that we were provided with this memo from the

20 Prosecution, I would like now to clarify that issue.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You can go ahead. Clarify with the witness.

22 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.

23 Q. [Interpretation] So, Mr. Delic, in your statement made in 1995,

24 you said that you served in the army in 1979 and you repeated the same

25 thing here a couple of days ago; whereas, the Office of the Prosecutor

Page 6736

1 made available to us a draft statement based on some interviews they had

2 with you, where the year of your military service is stated as 1977.

3 Which is the correct one?

4 A. I got married in 1979 so I couldn't have served in the army in the

5 same year. I served in the army in 1977.

6 Q. So when my colleague from the Prosecution asked you that question

7 and you answered 1979, it was a mistake? It's nothing important, just for

8 the sake of the record. You were in the army in 1977; right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you. You are aware of the fact that in 1991, in the

11 Posavina area, the Croatian community of Bosnian Posavina was established?

12 A. I'm not aware of that.

13 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, I would like to tender into evidence

14 two documents, ERN numbers are 00210327 and last two digits is 28 of the

15 second document. Also I have a translation. The Prosecution was very

16 kind to provide us with translation of this document. The document in

17 question is actually certificate issued by Bosnian Posavina Croatian

18 Defence Council for this witness and the members of his family. And I

19 have a couple of questions with regard to that document and I would like

20 that this document will be tendered into evidence.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, before they are tendered into evidence, can the

22 witness look at the certificate and can you discuss it with him and see

23 whether or not he knows anything about it.

24 MR. PANTELIC: Absolutely. In fact it was provided by this

25 witness to the Prosecution and it's a part of his statement from 1995.

Page 6737

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Does it have an English translation?

2 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, yes.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Okay. I'm wondering whether the

4 Prosecution know about this certificate? Or maybe they would like to have

5 a look.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: I think we do. I'm just trying to -- if Your

7 Honours could just bear with me for a moment, I think I know what

8 Mr. Pantelic is talking about.

9 MR. PANTELIC: In the meantime I have a sufficient number of

10 copies.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. We are aware of this.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: All right

13 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

14 MR. PANTELIC: So first, we are dealing with the certificate dated

15 8 of September, 1992, issued by Croatian Posavina Croatian Defence Council

16 for Fedja Delic and Almira Delic. These are the children of this witness,

17 in fact.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm not concerned -- I'm not objecting. I'm just

19 wondering if we could have translations. If Mr. Pantelic has any

20 translations, if we could be supplied with translations.

21 MR. PANTELIC: Sure.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You can go ahead.

23 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have a number, Your Honours, for this

24 document?

25 JUDGE MUMBA: I just want to be sure. Is it one sheet?

Page 6738

1 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, just one.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: On which all the certificates are contained? Okay.

3 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, for this one.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number, please? As exhibits?

5 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. It will be D29/1 ter and D29/1

6 for the English translation. Thank you.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

8 MR. PANTELIC: Mr. Usher, just put this English translation --

9 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Delic, you have in front of you the

10 certificate in your own language, don't you?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In the upper left-hand corner, there is a heading, which reads,

13 The Croatian Defence Council of Bosnian Posavina," isn't that what it

14 says?

15 A. Yes, it is.

16 Q. Do you know anything about this institution?

17 A. I know nothing.

18 Q. Below that, it says, "The Crisis Staff of the Bosanski Samac

19 municipality"; isn't that right?

20 A. Yes, that's what it says.

21 Q. Do you know anything about that institution?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Well, wait a minute. Did you know there was a Crisis Staff in

24 Bosanski Samac?

25 A. No, I didn't.

Page 6739

1 Q. Below that, it is written, "Domaljevac headquarters."

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What is the distance between Domaljevac and Samac?

4 A. I don't know exactly.

5 Q. You gave this certificate to the Prosecution; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. When were you given this certificate?

8 A. When I was exchanged.

9 Q. I understand that you were given this certificate from the

10 institution that issued it, and that is written up there in the upper

11 left-hand corner, the Bosanska Posavina Croatian Defence Council, Bosanski

12 Samac municipality Crisis Staff, Domaljevac headquarters?

13 A. Yes. Everybody who was exchanged was issued with such a

14 certificate.

15 Q. Were you given this certificate at the place where you were

16 exchanged or when you arrived in Domaljevac?

17 A. I never went to Domaljevac after I was exchanged.

18 Q. Where did you go after your exchange?

19 A. I went to Djakovo. That's in Croatia.

20 Q. Were you issued with this certificate in Djakovo?

21 A. We were given this certificate after we were exchanged.

22 Q. In Djakovo?

23 A. No. After the exchange.

24 Q. Could you please explain to the Trial Chamber when after the

25 exchange?

Page 6740












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13 English transcripts.













Page 6741

1 A. When we were about to board the buses, we were given the

2 certificates. The certificates were already printed out and they just

3 filled in the names.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: So you were given these certificates in Bosanski

5 Samac?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not in Bosanski Samac. In

7 Croatia, after we were exchanged. After we crossed the line.


9 Q. [Interpretation] And then you went to Djakovo with the

10 certificate; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Please be so kind and read what it says on the stamp affixed to

13 the certificate, if you could?

14 A. I'll try. It says, "The Crisis Staff of the municipality of

15 Bosanski Samac."

16 Q. What about the small writing around the stamp?

17 A. It is quite difficult to read. I'll try as much as I can.

18 "Croatian Community of Bosnian Posavina, Republic of Bosnia and

19 Herzegovina." I think I read this right, because the writing is really

20 small and it's not really legible. I hope that I got that right.

21 Q. Could you please read what is written in the certificate after the

22 handwritten word, "Bosanski Samac?" There is a comma after that. It

23 begins with the words, "Was arrested."

24 A. Yes, I see that.

25 Q. Can you please read it?

Page 6742

1 A. "Was arrested by the Serb or Chetnik aggressors in Bosanski

2 Samac."

3 Q. Thank you. It is a term that is hostile towards the Serbian

4 people; is that correct?

5 A. Perhaps it is the way that Serbs see it.

6 Q. How do you see it?

7 A. "Was arrested," I was arrested. "Serb or Chetnik aggressors,"

8 well, they were, those who made us sing Chetnik songs in prison. So they

9 were in favour of Chetniks. If they made us, the prisoners, sing Chetnik

10 songs. The aggressors, well, I have to agree with that, too. I would

11 perhaps add also another term, the occupying force, and aggressor, because

12 we were occupied by the Special Forces from Serbia and by the Yugoslav

13 People's Army, and also by the local Serbs living in Samac and the

14 environs.

15 Q. So you agree that such terms should be used in an official

16 document issued by an official body such as this one?

17 A. I think that this is not sufficient, that you should also add the

18 term, "Occupying force."

19 Q. You will agree with me that such terminology, such wording, is

20 used by the elements in Bosnia which do not want reconciliation?

21 A. I will not agree with you.

22 Q. Do you think that such terms should be in normal circulation in

23 Bosnia and Herzegovina?

24 MR. DI FAZIO: I object to the question, if Your Honours please.

25 It's difficult to see what relevance it would have, even if it were

Page 6743

1 somehow narrowed down to perhaps time so that we know we are dealing with

2 events in 1992. But it's hard to see what this witness's views about the

3 use of such terms, how it could assist the Chamber. If Mr. Pantelic wants

4 to put to this witness that he is a Croat or Muslim ultranationalist and

5 so on and so forth and shouldn't be believed, that's fine, but I just

6 don't see eliciting his views about the use of these terms.



9 Q. [Interpretation] All right, Mr. Delic, could you please explain to

10 me and to the Trial Chamber, this is a stamp of the Crisis Staff of the

11 Bosanski Samac municipality of the Croatian Community; is that correct?

12 A. I suppose it is.

13 Q. But that's not the Crisis Staff of the municipality of Samac in

14 the Republika Srpska?

15 A. I don't know about that.

16 Q. Please, have a look. What is your conclusion?

17 A. Well, I have read it.

18 Q. But what do you conclude?

19 A. I don't have to make any conclusions. I have no conclusions to

20 make.

21 Q. Could you please explain to the Trial Chamber how is it there are

22 two municipalities of Bosanski Samac, one on the Croatian side and the

23 other which in effect comprises the town where you lived?

24 A. Well, I don't know about that, because I wasn't the one who set it

25 up that way.

Page 6744

1 MR. PANTELIC: I don't have any further questions, Your Honours.

2 Thank you.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. The next counsel who wishes to

4 cross-examine? Yes, Mr. Pisarevic?

5 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

6 Cross-examined by Mr. Pisarevic:

7 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Delic. My name is Borislav Pisarevic. I'm an

8 attorney at law and I'm the Defence counsel for Mr. Simo Zaric. I will be

9 asking you some questions, but before I do, I would like to express my

10 deepest -- the deepest sympathies on behalf of my client for all the

11 suffering that you and your family have been through in the course of this

12 unfortunate conflict in the territory of our state, Bosnia and

13 Herzegovina. So I wish to express his deepest regret.

14 In the course of your testimony here, you explained to the Trial

15 Chamber your links with and your involvement in the Party of Democratic

16 Action in Bosanski Samac. Some things need to be clarified, however, and

17 I would like to do so now, with your assistance. I hope that you will

18 agree with me that the SDA, just as the SDS and the HDZ, is an ethnically

19 based party, yes or no?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You were on the SDA elections list at the elections held in 1991

22 and 1992 in Bosanski Samac. Do you remember, and can you confirm to this

23 Trial Chamber the fact that the leader of the list, the person that was at

24 the top of the list, was Mr. Sulejman Tihic, who was at the time the

25 president of the municipal board of the SDA party for Bosanski Samac?

Page 6745

1 A. I did not see the list myself.

2 Q. Thank you. According to your testimony, you were on the list; is

3 that correct?

4 A. I was told that I was on the list, and that I was not listed as an

5 independent or separate candidate of the SDA.

6 Q. Can we agree that by dint of appearing on the SDA elections list,

7 that you supported the platform of the Party of Democratic Action in

8 Bosanski Samac?

9 A. As a non-party candidate or independent candidate, I was in a

10 position to support a part of the platform of the SDA party, and the part

11 that I'm referring to is the one that favoured the independent Bosnia and

12 Herzegovina and one vote for each person.

13 Q. Mr. Delic, can we make one thing clear? I'm talking about the

14 platform for the municipality of Bosanski Samac, not the general

15 state-level policy of the SDA. Are we clear about that?

16 A. I was on the SDA list but before that, we had discussed my being a

17 non-party candidate, and yet that was not done in that way. This was not

18 done by the SDA but as Sulejman Tihic explained to me, by other parties

19 who refused to allow a distinction between SDA party candidates and

20 non-party candidates that ran under the SDA umbrella.

21 Q. Mr. Delic, you will agree with me that the elections were

22 conducted by the municipal electoral commission and that they determined

23 the conditions and all the other elements that were necessary for these

24 elections to be carried out in accordance with the law of Bosnia and

25 Herzegovina and the statute of the municipality of Bosanski Samac?

Page 6746

1 A. I probably am not aware of the electoral procedure.

2 Q. Thank you. Could you please confirm for me the fact that the

3 manager of the Mebos factory in Bosanski Samac was Zvonko Prce?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Could you please confirm that he was a Croat, an ethnic Croat?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Are you aware of the fact that the Mebos company, in the division

8 of posts among the parties that won the power, that it was assigned to the

9 HDZ party?

10 A. I'm not aware of that.

11 Q. Are you aware of the fact that the managers in companies were

12 appointed in accordance with the agreement reached by the parties in

13 government in Bosanski Samac?

14 A. Yes. In those companies where not much work was done.

15 Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Delic, I still do not want to elicit your

16 opinions. I may want to do so later but can you please just tell me

17 whether you are aware of that fact or no?

18 A. I heard some rumours to that effect.

19 Q. Thank you. You mentioned a meeting at the local commune, which

20 you attended. Do you know who organised the meeting?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber who notified you of the

23 meeting and of the agenda of the meeting?

24 A. Sulejman Tihic informed me that a meeting would be held and that

25 the issue of the opening of the bridge would be discussed at the meeting.

Page 6747

1 Q. Mr. Delic, were there other managers of other companies present at

2 the meeting? I mean companies from Bosanski Samac. Or were you the only

3 one?

4 A. I don't remember.

5 Q. Do you remember that all the three ruling parties in Bosanski

6 Samac were represented at the meeting?

7 A. I think that they were, yes.

8 Q. Can you recall who attended the meeting on behalf of the

9 Democratic Action Party?

10 A. Sulejman Tihic.

11 Q. Are you aware of the fact that [redacted]

12 [redacted], also attended the meeting?

13 A. I don't remember.

14 Q. Was this meeting chaired by [redacted]

15 A. I don't remember because I was late for the meeting.

16 Q. Do you remember that in addition to the issue of the bridge, that

17 there were some other issues on the agenda, issues related to the security

18 in the town of Bosanski Samac and so on?

19 A. I don't know, because I left the meeting after the topic of the

20 bridge was discussed, because that was the only thing that I was

21 interested in.

22 Q. So I can conclude that you did not remain at the meeting until its

23 end; is that correct?

24 A. No. I did not.

25 Q. Do you know that the bridge on the River Sava connecting the

Page 6748

1 Republic of Croatia and the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina was under

2 the jurisdiction of the municipality of Samac and the Republic of Bosnia

3 and Herzegovina and not of the local commune of Bosanski Samac?

4 A. I am not familiar with these legal matters.

5 Q. Thank you. Do you remember that at the time, the bridge on the

6 Sava River would be closed very often?

7 A. Yes. That is correct. And the company where I worked had

8 problems because of that.

9 Q. Do you know that the bridge over the Sava River on the Republic of

10 Croatia side was guarded by the National Guards Corps and by the army of

11 the Republic of Croatia?

12 A. I'm sorry, in which period?

13 Q. In this period, precisely.

14 A. I never crossed the bridge in that period.

15 Q. Did perhaps the drivers from your company or some other people who

16 travelled that way tell you anything about that?

17 A. I did not hold any meetings with the drivers about that, and I did

18 not receive any information to this effect.

19 Q. Did anyone report to you or did they report to you why they were

20 unable to cross the Sava River at Bosanski Samac?

21 A. If there was a problem, they would just tell me the most -- the

22 bridge is closed and we have problems bringing in or taking out the

23 production materials.

24 Q. Do you know that at that time, the bridge was closed quite often

25 by the Croatian army and the members of the ZNG, the National Guards

Page 6749












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13 English transcripts.













Page 6750

1 Corps?

2 A. I don't know about that.

3 Q. Did you hear from anyone that the bridge had been mined, booby

4 trapped on the Croatian side, that mines had been laid down there?

5 A. I did not have that information.

6 Q. But you do know the fact that on the side of Bosnia and

7 Herzegovina, the bridge over the Sava River was guarded by police officers

8 of the Bosanski Samac municipality?

9 A. I don't know who guarded the bridge.

10 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Just a moment.

11 Q. Do you remember when a unit of the Republican Ministry of the

12 Interior came to Bosanski Samac from Sarajevo and that this unit guarded

13 the bridge on the Sava River connecting the Republic of Bosnia and

14 Herzegovina and the Republic of Croatia?

15 A. I don't know about that.

16 Q. All right. Could you please tell me how did this meeting end, or

17 rather this item pertaining to the opening of the bridge over the River

18 Sava connecting the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina with the Republic

19 of Croatia?

20 A. Before I left, I urged them to find a solution, and after the

21 discussion and the interventions, I understood that the bridge would be

22 guarded and that it would be opened for traffic. That was enough for me,

23 and I left the meeting very happy and satisfied.

24 Q. All right. Thank you. At that meeting, you also took part in the

25 discussion and so did Simo Zaric?

Page 6751

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that it is

3 time for us to break, and as I'm about to embark upon another topic,

4 perhaps this would really be a good time.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We can adjourn the proceedings to tomorrow

6 afternoon at 1415 hours.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, if Your Honours please, I wonder if

8 Defence counsel could give us an indication of approximately how much

9 longer they will be so we can organise our next witness? I think we

10 probably coming to the end.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pisarevic, how much more time do you think

12 you need?

13 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, not more than 15 to

14 20 minutes.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. And then Mr. Lukic, yes?

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that my

17 cross-examination will also take about ten minutes, but perhaps I will

18 come up with some other topics during the night. But I think that's more

19 or less the amount of time that I'm going to need.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Baen?

21 MS. BAEN: Probably about 15 minutes, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you very much.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: I think you can work your arithmetic Mr. Di Fazio.

25 We will rise now until tomorrow.

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Page 6753

1 Ms. Reidy, you wanted to say something?

2 MS. REIDY: Yes, Your Honour, and sorry for delaying us here, it's

3 just that that's a time for the cross, but could I just get any indication

4 from the Bench whether they are expecting any break for legal submissions

5 between these witnesses or should we just continue with the next witness?

6 I know there is the outstanding matter of --

7 JUDGE MUMBA: No. We did agree that after this witness if we are

8 going to continue.

9 MS. REIDY: So we would agree just on Ms. Baen's response on the

10 witness issue?

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Right now, I can't say whether or not we will

12 continue that far, because as you can see, Judge Singh is not here, so we

13 will be able to know finally tomorrow so we will just dealt with the

14 possibility of completing re-examination of this witness.

15 MS. REIDY: Thank you.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Of course, if we have to continue, it will be -- we

17 shall deal with Variant A and B before the next witness.

18 MS. REIDY: Okay. Thank you.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: The Court will rise.

20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m., to

21 be reconvened on Tuesday, the 5th day of March,

22 2002, at 9.00 a.m.