Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6945

1 Tuesday, 16 April 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The accused M. Simic not present]

5 [The witness entered court]

6 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Case Number

9 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Milan Simic, Miroslav

10 Tadic, and Simo Zaric.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, we are continuing with examination-in-chief by

12 the Prosecution.

13 MR. WEINER: Thank you.


15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 Examined by Mr. Weiner: [Continued]

17 Q. Good afternoon. Good afternoon, sir, can you hear me?

18 A. I can.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 Sir, yesterday we were discussing the seizure of vehicles from

21 Croatian and Muslim citizens in Bosanski Samac. Do you know a man by the

22 name of Aladin Jakupovic, nicknamed Dadi?

23 A. I do.

24 Q. And do you know where he lived?

25 A. He lived not far from my mother-in-law, near the SUP building.

Page 6946

1 Q. Did he own some sort of vehicle?

2 A. He owned a BMW motorcycle.

3 Q. And did something happen to that motorcycle?

4 A. They took it away from him.

5 Q. Were you present when this incident occurred?

6 A. My wife and I were on our way to my mother-in-law to bring her

7 some things. And when we got to the intersection of Pere Bosica Street,

8 we saw four soldiers taking this man to his house. They made him open the

9 door of the garage and drive out his BMW motorcycle. He was resisting.

10 Then a struggle ensued. They started beating him, threw him to the

11 ground, started beating him. But he was a strong young man, and he was

12 resisting, fighting back. And then from the direction of the SUP

13 building, another four men came as reinforcement to the previous four, and

14 they were beating him while he was on the ground, beating him with

15 anything they could, kicked him, beat him with rifle butts, fists,

16 anything. My wife and I left this area. But later, we heard that they

17 had killed him. We heard many versions about his death, one of them being

18 that after this beating, he had bled to death.

19 Q. Now, whatever happened to his bicycle or his motorcycle, sir?

20 A. One of the men took the motorcycle and drove it away, just as they

21 had pulled him or his body away, they took the motorcycle, too.

22 Q. Now, did you ever see Dadi, that man nicknamed Dadi again after

23 this incident?

24 A. Never.

25 Q. After you heard that he was killed, did anyone that you know ever

Page 6947

1 see him again?

2 A. Never.

3 Q. After that incident, would you have protested any request or order

4 that you were given?

5 A. No, never.

6 Q. Let us continue on talking about the living conditions in Bosanski

7 Samac after the takeover -- I'll say after the conflict.

8 Now, was there a mosque in Bosanski Samac?

9 A. Yes, there was.

10 Q. Where was the mosque located, sir? Tell the Tribunal.

11 A. The mosque was across the street from the department store, and on

12 the other side was a park. On one side of the mosque was Pere Bosica

13 Street, and on the other side, there was a promenade in front of the

14 mosque, a closed-off area.

15 Q. Could you just very briefly describe what the mosque looked like,

16 whether it was new, old, large, small? Just tell the Chamber a bit what

17 it looked like.

18 A. The mosque was a large one, rectangular in shape, built like a

19 square. In front of the mosque, there was a gate; and inside of the gate,

20 behind the gate, there were arches. It had a courtyard laid out in

21 concrete up to the gate. It had a hedge around it and concrete columns

22 which were linked with large pipes. There was a large plain tree on the

23 left-hand side of the mosque.

24 Q. Now, was this an old building or a newer building, sir?

25 A. It was an old one, but it was very well preserved and very

Page 6948

1 beautiful.

2 Q. Now, did something happen to this mosque during the summer of

3 1992?

4 A. It was destroyed, razed to the ground.

5 Q. Can you tell us what happened? Tell the Court.

6 A. It was one night we heard a large explosion. I thought a grenade

7 had hit my house. We all jumped up. One of my children had already been

8 exchanged. The other one had escaped, so my wife and I were alone. I

9 looked outside, and I saw there was no tile on the roof. I looked in the

10 direction of the mosque. A lot of dust has risen and clouds of smoke were

11 rising from the mosque, and I told my wife they had blown up the mosque.

12 Q. Now, the next day or later that morning, did you go out and see

13 what had occurred?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. And tell us what you saw.

16 A. I got out, as many other local people from Samac did. We went to

17 see what had happened to the mosque. There was just a lot of rubble

18 instead of the building. In a circle of 300 to 400 metres, one of the

19 beams of the mosque had hit Fitozovic's house. The tiles on the roofs of

20 the surrounding houses had cracked and fell to the ground, but there was

21 no trace of the mosque. A lot of people, a large crowd, gathered. A lot

22 of us were Muslims, and we were very hard hit by this.

23 Q. Now, what happened to the debris that was strewn all over the

24 area?

25 A. All of it was taken away, cleared, and the site remained clean as

Page 6949

1 if no building had ever stood there.

2 Q. Who did the clearing work?

3 A. I didn't work there, but a lot of other people who had work duty

4 were involved in the clearing.

5 Q. So the people who had work duty like you had to do the clearing of

6 all the rubble?

7 A. Yes, that's correct.

8 Q. And what were you doing while the rubble was being cleared?

9 A. First of all, I mended my own roof with the help of my

10 neighbours. My neighbours also had work duty, just as I did. And we went

11 from house to house. We went to Samat and Rasad's house first. Then to

12 the house of our neighbour Mirko. Then we roofed Fadil's house. Then we

13 helped Azim and Esef [phoen] Fitozovic. Then we pulled out a large beam

14 from one man's shop, so I spent a few days, a couple of days, mending

15 roofs. To clear the fallen tiles and the rest of the debris.

16 Q. Approximately how many homes did you repair, you and the others?

17 A. If we count all the houses that we worked on while we were on work

18 duty, it was altogether 40 houses. Some of them were more damaged, some

19 of them to a lesser extent, but it was about 40.

20 Q. So let me get this straight. They split up the compulsory work

21 unit. Some of the people were involved in clearing debris and some of

22 them were involved in repairing homes. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 MR. WEINER: Could the witness be shown P14A, photographs 18 and

25 19, please.

Page 6950

1 Q. Sir, could you look at those two photographs, please. Could you

2 tell us what those are.

3 A. Shall I speak? This is the fountain and the department store, and

4 right here was the mosque.

5 Q. Could you place that photo on the machine to your right and point

6 it out to the Court, please, sir.

7 A. Number 9 is the department store. This is the fountain, the

8 artesian well, we called it. And here the mosque used to stand, right

9 here in this site.

10 Q. Could you also show us on the other photograph, please. And what

11 number is that? 18.

12 A. Department store, well, and here was the mosque.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 Sir, when you went out to see the destruction of the mosque that

15 morning, did you see any police officers present?

16 A. No, I didn't.

17 Q. Did any police officers come to speak to you or your neighbours

18 concerning damage to your homes?

19 A. No one came.

20 Q. Was anyone investigating through the rubble looking for certain

21 types of explosives or whatever was left of explosives?

22 A. No one did. Not as long as I was there.

23 Q. And finally, was anyone ever arrested for the destruction of that

24 mosque?

25 A. I don't know.

Page 6951

1 Q. Now, sir, was there a Catholic church in Bosanski Samac?

2 A. Yes, there was.

3 Q. And where was that located?

4 A. It was in Edvarda Kardelja Street, right across the street from

5 the orthodox church. They were facing each other, the two churches.

6 Q. Now, could you please just very briefly describe what the Catholic

7 church looked like.

8 A. The Catholic church was very beautiful. It was one of the older

9 edifices in town. It was facing Edvarda Kardelja Street. It had a bell

10 tower, a large entrance, and it was very -- its side was very long, it was

11 very deep.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner, do we need these details? Is it not

13 sufficient to simply say there was a Catholic church at such and such a

14 place, and then you move on what happened to it? Do we need these

15 details? I don't think so.

16 MR. WEINER: I just offered to bring the details because there is

17 no photograph of the Catholic church. We have no idea what it looked

18 like.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: It does not matter. What is important is the

20 identification of the church as a Catholic church and the venue, the place

21 where it was located.

22 MR. WEINER: Okay.

23 Q. Now, sir, in early 1993, did something happen to that Catholic

24 church?

25 A. It was destroyed.

Page 6952

1 Q. And could you tell us how it was destroyed?

2 A. I know that from numerous stories I heard from my friends, namely,

3 Mehmed Vukovic, they took it apart piece by piece. They didn't blow it up

4 in order not to damage the Serbian church which was very close by. They

5 used demolition balls and other machinery to demolish it. That's what my

6 friend Mese Vukovic told me. And when they took it apart piece by piece,

7 it was hauled away. I was never told where. In any case, it does not

8 exist any more. It was destroyed.

9 Q. Now, did the persons who worked compulsory labour, were they

10 involved in the dismantling of the Catholic church in early 1993?

11 A. Yes, they helped to load the construction material, the pieces.

12 Q. And did the persons who were involved in this dismantling tell you

13 what they had done?

14 A. They used shovels and spades to load it on to trucks. Those who

15 were not mobilised into the army. They were few of such men.

16 Q. Now, let us continue in to the year 1992 and to the spring of

17 summer. Are you familiar with the primary and secondary schools in

18 Bosanski Samac?

19 A. Yes, I can see them from my balcony.

20 Q. And how were the primary and secondary schools used in the spring

21 and summer of 1992?

22 A. In the building of the secondary school, Catholics and a couple of

23 Muslims were detained. In the gym of the primary school, a number of

24 Muslims were detained, but only for a short while before they were moved

25 to a different place. So these places were used as camps.

Page 6953

1 Q. Now, could you -- you said you could see the school from your

2 home. What could you see happening at the secondary or high school during

3 the spring and summer of 1992?

4 A. One day, I saw that two men had been taken out near the gym, and

5 they were beaten. My wife and I watched.

6 Q. And what were they beaten with?

7 A. They were beaten with hands, kicked. They were also beaten with

8 weapons. I didn't know any of the men who did the beating. I couldn't

9 recognise them at that distance. But I could see them being taken out. It

10 was near the gym next to the trees that were planted recently.

11 Q. Now, how far were these schools from your home, sir?

12 A. Well, it was up to 75 metres to the school playground, so it must

13 have been around 100 or 125 metres to that spot.

14 Q. And sir, what were your nights like living approximately 100 to

15 125 metres from those schools? What were the nights like at your home?

16 A. Well, the nights were very hard. A curfew had been introduced,

17 and no one was allowed to move around. Hardly a night would pass without

18 us hearing songs or moaning from the camps. The songs were nationalistic

19 songs. We could also hear the sound of beating and moaning through the

20 night.

21 Q. And how often did that happen?

22 A. I was not the only one who had that. All of Samac could hear it.

23 But there were -- there was not one particular day when we heard it.

24 There were many of them.

25 Q. Now, let's move towards the end of the summer of 1992. And your

Page 6954

1 son is living at your home. What is your son's name?

2 A. Mirza.

3 Q. Did something happen to Mirza on or about August 20th, 1992?

4 A. On the 20th of August at 11.00 p.m., they -- somebody knocked on

5 the door, banged on the door, and that was Cabasko, Bijelic's son, Nenad

6 Bijelic, and two who were unknown to me bearing military insignia. They

7 came to pick him up. What was the reason, I asked? And they said we have

8 to take him for interrogation. Take him in for interrogation, and they

9 did. Why have you come at night? I was told to shut up and keep quiet.

10 My son was taken to the building of that Australian citizen where the

11 command headquarters were. He was questioned, interrogated. He told us

12 later that he was interrogated about some false information concerning

13 him, and they let him go at 2.00 a.m.

14 Do you want me to continue?

15 Q. Now -- yes, once your son -- did your son return home later that

16 evening?

17 A. Yes, he returned at 2.00 a.m. He was told that he has no more

18 work duty to perform, but to report at 5.00 p.m. in the Australian -- in

19 the headquarters, the building of the Australian citizen. He went one

20 day, the second day, and then on the 24th, Nenad Bijelic -- they let him

21 go. And Nenad told him -- they played together football. He told him,

22 "Mirza, no good is in store for you. Therefore, run, flee."

23 On the 25th in the morning, my son came to me. He didn't say

24 anything to his mother, but he said: "Father, I'm leaving. I'll cross

25 the river, Sava River," and I told him, "Son, good luck." He went through

Page 6955

1 a mine field. He swam over the river, and for a long time I didn't know

2 anything else. Later, much later, I heard that he was in Germany.

3 Q. Okay, thank you. This individual who told him to leave, that

4 there was no good coming for him, was he a soldier?

5 A. Yes. And they were friends. He would also come to us, and they

6 played softball together. They were really true friends up to the war,

7 and I must say he also helped him in this situation.

8 Q. Now, the day that your son left on August 25th, was your son the

9 only person to escape on that date, or did other people escape?

10 A. On the 25th and the 26th, 126 inhabitants of Samac swam across the

11 River Sava.

12 Q. And as a result of this large number of people escaping, did

13 something happen thereafter?

14 A. The consequence of this escape, there was a new camp was set up

15 for the civilians, elderly, women, children, and my father and my

16 step-mother were taken in at that. Because also, my half-brother, he also

17 swam across the river.

18 Q. All right. Let me just clarify this. Are you saying that the

19 families, the families that remained in Bosanski Samac of those people who

20 escaped, they were placed in a camp?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And what was the name of the camp?

23 A. It was an open-type camp. They weren't arrest. They were placed

24 in different homes, in Zasavica and they worked in these camps.

25 Q. Were people allowed to leave this camp?

Page 6956

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did people go voluntarily to this camp?

3 A. No.

4 Q. You said your father and step-mother were sent there because your

5 step-brother had left?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, your father, was he -- how old was he, first?

8 A. My father was born in 1926, 1926.

9 Q. So he was approximately 66 years old at the time. Was he still

10 employed?

11 A. No.

12 Q. What had he done for work?

13 A. My father was a retiree, and he opened for his son a cobbler's

14 shop, a shoe shop, for shoe reparation.

15 Q. And that was for his son that he opened the shop?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, what about you and your wife? Were you taken to Zasavica?

18 A. No, we were not.

19 Q. Did something happen which prevented you being taken to Zasavica?

20 A. Well, when I was coming back from my work duty, from separation,

21 and when they came to the house in front of us and when we were taking

22 Maja Bradisici's [As interpreted] daughter and wife, people -- there was a

23 lot of upheaval, and they fled and never came back for me.

24 Q. When you say there was upheaval which led to -- was it the police

25 or soldiers that came to take the people away?

Page 6957

1 A. Yes.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Zecevic.

3 MR. ZECEVIC: Your Honours, I have an objection. The witness has

4 said that there was a heavy shelling on Bosanski Samac on that day, and

5 that is why everybody has fled and never came back to take to Zasavica.

6 If my learned colleague could clarify that because we heard very clearly

7 in our language that that is what he said, and it's not in the transcript.

8 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, that's what I was going to do because I

9 was expecting that answer, having him explain what upheaval is.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Mr. Weiner. You can go ahead.


12 Q. Sir, we have a translation issue. Can you tell us what happened

13 which led to these police or soldiers to flee, the ones that were going to

14 take your family to Zasavica?

15 A. They came in front of the Sanic's house, and two others came. And

16 heavy shelling began. They left the truck. They left everything and ran

17 off. Later on, they came to take the truck, but they didn't contact us,

18 come for us. So this was happening all in three or four days. 27th, my

19 father was picked up on the 27th.

20 Q. Now, let's continue to move on to the beginning of the winter.

21 Let's move to Christmas eve, December 24th.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner, 27th of which month?

23 MR. WEINER: December.

24 Q. December 24th, 1992, Christmas eve. Can you tell us where you

25 were at about 9.00 p.m., and what you were doing.

Page 6958

1 A. On the 23rd -- 24th of December, I was on the Bosna River. On the

2 23rd of December, the use of messenger came, Subasic. He called me out,

3 and I was told that I have received military summons, military notice.

4 And then he went in my house, and he said: "After tomorrow, you will be

5 going for an exchange. Rada, you will be going for an exchange." My wife

6 was preparing for the exchange. Then on the 24th, I accompanied her for

7 the exchange. She asked me, did I receive the military notice? She said,

8 "If you did receive it, I'll stay with you." I said, "I did not." That

9 was the last military notice, and I was told by the same messenger that I

10 have to wear -- carry a rifle. On the 24th of December in the evening, I

11 sat in the house. Yes, please.

12 Q. Let me ask you this: He said you would have to carry a rifle.

13 Basically you would have to join which army, sir?

14 A. Well, the 4th Detachment. There was no other.

15 Q. Basically, are you talking about the army of the Republika Srpska?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you want to join the army of the Republika Srpska?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Now, on December 24th, you said you were sitting in your house.

20 Was there anyone from your family that was remaining there?

21 A. My wife left at 10.00 a.m. in the morning, and she went for the

22 exchange, and I remained alone.

23 Q. Okay. Now what did you do about 9.00? What did you do?

24 A. In the evening?

25 Q. Yes.

Page 6959

1 A. First I sat down. I took a photo of my children and this military

2 summons, and I said "There's no other choice. I have to cross the Sava."

3 I took an inflatable -- an inflatable mattress, put it around me, and then

4 I went towards River Bosna. When I came to Sokolusa along River Bosna, I

5 unwrapped this inflatable mattress. I lay on it and entered the Bosna

6 River with it. When I found myself in the proximity of the bridge which

7 had been demolished, that the mattress -- the air is escaping, and that

8 what remains is very poorly inflated mattress. And it was very cold, much

9 below zero. And then I don't know what happened later.

10 After a certain some time -- may I continue?

11 Q. When you say you don't know what happened, did you lose

12 consciousness?

13 A. Yes. I don't really know what happened to me later, because when

14 I came to, I saw the banks of the river. I don't know where. I tried to

15 stop, to stand, and I saw two cranes. I saw these two big cranes. I said

16 we're on our side, and I said that is the port of Samac, and I was up

17 there. And then I crawled, and I continued. I was crawling, and then I

18 came to the embankment. I went up to see whether there was anybody, and

19 then to go slowly back home as if nothing happened. But the moment I came

20 to the top of the embankment, Sisic grabbed me by the hand. He lived in

21 Srpska Varos, and he was a truck diver.

22 Q. Were you arrested at that time?

23 A. He grabbed me by the hand. He didn't say anything. Then Andra

24 came, and Andra shouted "Ha. We've caught an Ustasha." Then they

25 informed everybody and Vlado Sisic came to apprehend me. He had them beat

Page 6960

1 me with whatever they could.

2 Q. When you say they beat you with whatever they could, what did they

3 beat you with?

4 A. Hands, feet, and weapons. After that, they took me through the

5 town, and they took me through my street. He showed me my house. He

6 said, "Look" and I looked. And he told me, "You'll never see it again."

7 And I answered: "I know." Then we went on. They brought me to the

8 command, to Mustafa Smajic's house where the command was. Again, they

9 took me upstairs in a big room with -- where Mile Pancir was, then Mladen

10 Roda, and then a teacher, Bosko Bosic from Gradacac, and a person sitting

11 at the desk who was writing. I don't know who the person was. And they

12 began beating me.

13 Q. What did they beat you with?

14 A. Vlado Sisic had a knife in his hand, and he turned it around.

15 Then they spat at me. They cursed my balija's mother. They called me

16 also "Ustasha" because I was also swimming, trying to get across. Then

17 Bosko Bosic was hitting me the most, with a butt, kicking me, with his

18 hands. Then Mladen Roda came in. He looked at me. He said, do you know

19 me? I said yes. And he hit me only once. He was the chief there, the

20 commander.

21 Then, Bosko Bosic, they took a cigarette butt, and they put out

22 the cigarette butt on my hand -- on my skin, but they pulled me out half

23 dead from the cold water and I didn't even feel it that much. And then

24 Mile Pancir took me to another place. They took me to the bathroom where

25 in the bathtub, they filled it and they placed me and they told me: "Show

Page 6961












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 6962

1 us how you swam, how you swim on the other side." They wanted to drown

2 me. Mile Pancir stepped -- pressed here with his knee at here, and with

3 one hand, with one finger, he tried to get out my eyeball. And then Roda

4 came and said "stop." He moved.

5 Then they stripped me, and they opened in the bathroom there was a

6 cupboard, and they gave me some clothing of the owner of the house, and

7 then I dressed that.

8 Q. Let me just ask you a few questions. You said they filled up a

9 bathtub and tried to drown you. Did they put you in the bathtub?

10 A. Yes, they filled the bathtub to the top, Mile, Mile Pancir. He

11 tried to make me dive, and Sisic helped him, assisted him.

12 Q. Now, you said that Mile Pancir put his knee to your face, and you

13 pointed to your cheekbones. Explain that, please.

14 A. Yes. First he threw me on the floor, and he was pressing with his

15 knee on my cheekbone. And he tried with his finger to get out the -- my

16 eye. And -- but then their commander came and said "stop".

17 Q. Now, during this time, did they ask you any questions? Were you

18 interrogated at any time during this beating?

19 A. Yes. Yes, they asked me quite banal, superficial matters. Who is

20 the organiser of all these escapes from Samac? And what is the password

21 which you're to say when you come to the other bank? I didn't know that,

22 and I say that I never knew it and that nobody knows that.

23 Q. Was any document ever prepared for you to sign based on this

24 interrogation?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6963

1 Q. Did you sign a document?

2 A. Yes, I did.

3 Q. Were you able to read it before you signed it?

4 A. I wasn't interested in it. I didn't look at it, and I didn't dare

5 look at it.

6 Q. Do you know what was in the document that you signed?

7 A. I do not know.

8 Q. Now, after they gave you some dry clothes, what did they do with

9 you?

10 A. They took me downstairs and they took me to this -- to the place

11 in front of the building in the guards' shed, and then they placed me in a

12 car and took me to the village of Slatina.

13 Q. Where did they take you in the village of Slatina?

14 A. That is the Catholic Slatina. There was nobody there except for

15 the military. They took me to a military command headquarters where I

16 could see the insignia, the Krajina military police. They took me to a

17 private house in this village.

18 Q. And how long did you stay in the village of Slatina with the

19 Krajina military police?

20 A. I stayed there three days. And they were quite correct. They

21 handcuffed me. I slept in the cellar.

22 Q. Were you beaten there?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Now, after those three days, where did you go then?

25 A. After that, they took me to the police station, police station in

Page 6964

1 Samac for interrogation. I stayed there for a short time, and then they

2 took me to Pelagicevo.

3 Q. While you were at the police station in Samac, were you

4 questioned?

5 A. Yes, they were. The interrogation was carried out by a person I

6 didn't know at all, and the same questions were repeated as before.

7 Q. And were you given a statement to sign? Or was a statement

8 prepared based on your questioning?

9 A. Well, I signed, but I didn't look at the paper, what it contained.

10 Q. Did you write the information that was on that paper that you

11 signed?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Do you know what is contained in that information that you signed?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did you ask to read it prior to signing it?

16 A. No.

17 Q. And how did you feel while you were in the police station at -- in

18 Bosanski Samac during those few days, short time?

19 A. Well, they were correct in their treatment of me. They didn't

20 beat me. But they interrogated me. I was staying there alone. The camp

21 didn't exist any more, and there were no other prisoners except me. I was

22 wondering what would happen with me.

23 Q. Now, did you eventually go to Pelagicevo?

24 A. From the police station in Bosanski Samac, they let me go home.

25 This policeman told me, who was -- I knew him also earlier. And he told

Page 6965

1 me: "You're going home." I really didn't believe it, and I didn't even

2 move. And he said: "You're going home, go, move." Then I went towards

3 my home. I stayed there for two days. On the third day, they told me to

4 get ready and that I'll be going to Pelagicevo.

5 Q. Now, you went to Pelagicevo. Where did they hold you in

6 Pelagicevo?

7 A. In Pelagicevo, they kept me in a shop, in a department store

8 called Trgocentar. I was never there before. But next to it is the

9 veterinary station.

10 Q. Now, did something happen to you at the end of January? On

11 January 29th, did you receive some sort of a notification while in

12 Pelagicevo?

13 A. On the 29th of January, in Pelagicevo, they took me for a number

14 of interrogations. Then I had work duty, and I was informed that on the

15 29th, the next day, I would go in for an exchange.

16 Q. What happened after you're notified that you're going to go in for

17 an exchange? What happened after that?

18 A. I couldn't believe it. And then they came for me by car, a

19 policeman from Samac. He picked me up and took me home. He was supposed

20 to be with me at home, but he left me alone, and he went home as we knew

21 each other since earlier times.

22 Q. Now, the next morning, on January 30th, 1993, what did you do?

23 A. On the next morning, I went in front of -- to the building of

24 retirees, and the buses were already aligned there for the exchange of

25 civilians. I entered -- mounted a bus, sat down, and waited for the bus

Page 6966

1 to depart.

2 Q. Now, before you got on the bus, did you see any of the defendants

3 there at the retirement home? Did you see any of the defendants?

4 A. Yes, I saw Tadic.

5 Q. What was he doing?

6 A. He was standing there. He was the one who organised it. He

7 wasn't reading the names out. It was Sveto Vasovic who did that. He was

8 the organiser of the exchange.

9 Q. Was your name read out?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you got on the bus after it was read out?

12 A. I did.

13 Q. Now, who else was on the bus?

14 A. Children, women, all of them civilians from Bosanski Samac, old

15 and young. If you look at us men, there were very few of us.

16 Q. Now, did the bus eventually leave?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Where did you go?

19 A. The bus set off in the direction of Bijeljina, and from there to

20 Racca which is a crossing point towards Serbia

21 Q. Did something happen when you got to Racca?

22 A. When we arrived at Racca, I was told to get off the bus and to get

23 on to another bus. When I did that, I saw my fellow citizens from Samac

24 inside that bus, plus some people who had been detained in the Batkovic

25 camp. They were on that bus.

Page 6967

1 Q. Where did you go from there?

2 A. They took us to Lipovac where the exchange took place.

3 Q. Once you got to Lipovac, just tell the Court what happened?

4 A. Well, since I knew from before that in all exchanges somebody

5 always failed to be exchanged, I sat on the first seat. And when the bus

6 stopped, I got out first and was the first in line.

7 Q. And were you exchanged sometime thereafter?

8 A. I was.

9 Q. And were any of the defendants present?

10 A. There was Tadic. He was the big boss. He was the one telling

11 people who to release, who to let go. Tadic entered a small marquee that

12 had been improvised on the spot. Everybody would enter, tell their name,

13 get registered, and get out on the other side and be exchanged.

14 Q. Now, did they exchange everyone together, or were there separate

15 exchanges for civilians and soldiers? How did it work, sir?

16 A. Civilians were not exchanged. A bus load of them simply got out

17 and crossed over to the other side. However, my group was exchanged

18 almost as prisoners of war. That's at least what it looked like. We were

19 exchanged on a one-for-one basis. I was exchanged for a Serb man.

20 Q. Now, at this time of exchange, could you describe yourself

21 physically? Did you have any physical injuries at this time, sir?

22 A. I wasn't looking well. I was a sorry sight indeed, having gone

23 through all that I had been through, all the beatings, all the

24 humiliations and degradations. I was not -- I didn't resemble a human

25 being at the time.

Page 6968

1 Q. Did you suffer any broken bones as a result of that beating in

2 Bosanski Samac after you attempted to escape?

3 A. Well, there was a rule that everybody went first to see a doctor,

4 so I went to see a doctor in Majavac [phoen]. I told them to look at my

5 eyeball. They sent me for an x-ray. The bone over my eye was not broken.

6 They told me there was no need for surgery unless I wanted plastic surgery

7 for esthetic reasons. And I said no, I won't do that unless there are

8 other consequences. So I didn't do anything about it, and my eye is

9 simply somehow pushed deeper inside. That's the only thing you can

10 notice.

11 Q. How did you feel physically at that time?

12 A. Horrible.

13 Q. Were you exhausted?

14 A. I was exhausted, and I suffered from all kinds of pain all over my

15 body. Everything hurt.

16 Q. And did you have those same pains prior to the conflict erupting?

17 A. Well, I had back problems, but not that bad.

18 Q. Okay.

19 Just a couple other matters relating to family property. You

20 indicated that your father had a cobbler or a shoe repair shop in Bosanski

21 Samac, and he had it -- put it together for one of your brothers or you

22 said for one of his sons. What happened to that shop in the summer of

23 1992?

24 A. It was seized as soon as he was taken to Zasavica. They also

25 seized his apartment in town as soon as he was taken away.

Page 6969

1 Q. So when he was taken away on August 27th, they seized both his

2 apartment and his cobbler shop?

3 A. That's true.

4 Q. And did someone move into those two locations?

5 A. Well, later, after the war ended, somebody moved immediately into

6 the apartment. I don't know who. But after the war ended, the cobbler's

7 shop was taken over by someone. I don't know who again. But I know the

8 shop was open for customers.

9 Q. Have you re-obtained that shop? Has your family re-obtained that

10 shop?

11 A. Well, my father regained his apartment, and I didn't ask about the

12 rest. My father died in America three or four years ago.

13 Q. Did your father ever give anyone permission to take his apartment

14 or his shop?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did he ever receive any rent for anyone using his apartment or his

17 shop?

18 A. No.

19 Q. What about any rent for anyone using his equipment in the shop?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Let's talk about your home, sir. At the time of the -- of your

22 exchange, in January 1993, who was living in your home?

23 A. When I was exchanged, naturally, they seized my home for their own

24 purposes, and the apartment I owned was taken over by the man who

25 interrogated me at the SUP. I know him. He is a Samac man, but I don't

Page 6970

1 know him personally. Nobody dared approach my house and ask anything. So

2 that man lived in it. Last year, I regained my house. I got it back, and

3 I have some cousins in Samac whom I authorised to deal with all the legal

4 stuff connecting -- connected with getting my house back and looking after

5 it until I return.

6 Q. Now, prior to the house being seized, which was after you got

7 exchanged, prior to that, were any of your relatives living in that house?

8 A. My mother and father-in-law were with me. When I was exchanged --

9 my father-in-law actually died in my home while I was still there. And

10 after I was exchanged, nobody remained.

11 Q. What about your wife's brother's family? Where were they living?

12 A. They spent a couple of days in my house. They thought they would

13 stay with us. But at one point, they got so scared they went back to

14 their own home. They thought they would be better off there.

15 Q. What scared them?

16 A. Day in, day out policemen would come to my house and people who

17 were interested in my house, in getting it for themselves.

18 Q. And did a policeman eventually move into that house?

19 A. Well, that man moved in. I don't know whether he was a

20 policeman. He was some sort of low-rated inspector.

21 Q. And how long did that man live there in your house?

22 A. Until last year.

23 Q. And did you ever give him any permission to move into your home?

24 A. No, never.

25 Q. Did he ever pay you any rent during those nine years?

Page 6971

1 A. No, never.

2 Q. Did you want that person living in your home, sir?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Sir, when you got your house back in 2001, what was the condition

5 of the house?

6 A. On the outside, it was the same as I left it. But inside, there

7 was no trace that I had ever lived there. Nothing of my possessions

8 remained.

9 Q. Was there any furniture left in the house?

10 A. No.

11 Q. What about the heating system?

12 A. The heating system was electrical. I also had a firewood stove,

13 but nothing, nothing remained when I saw it again. Not even a light bulb.

14 Q. What about the little fast-food restaurant, if you want to call

15 it, the kabob restaurant that you had out in front of your house? What

16 happened to that building?

17 A. Somebody, they don't know who, dismantled the windows and the door

18 and took them away. And a different iron door was placed instead of my

19 door, and there was nothing inside. You couldn't ever gather that it used

20 to be a shop or anything else. Clear space.

21 Q. Now, sir, prior to the war, you had this property, little

22 business, a job. Back in April of 1992, did you like living in Bosanski

23 Samac?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Was your family happy there?

Page 6972

1 A. We were.

2 Q. Did you plan to leave Bosanski Samac, this place where your family

3 had lived for generations, back in April of 1992 prior to the conflict?

4 A. No.

5 Q. You enjoyed living there?

6 A. I did.

7 Q. Now, after the war starts, sir, was your family safe in Bosanski

8 Samac?

9 A. We were. You mean after the beginning, or before the war?

10 Q. No, after the war. Was your family safe?

11 A. I don't quite understand this.

12 Q. After the war started, were you and your family safe in Bosanski

13 Samac?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Were you subjected to certain restrictions on your freedoms after

16 the war started?

17 A. We were.

18 Q. Were you treated differently from the Serb population?

19 A. We were.

20 Q. Were you still able to make choices relating to your family,

21 whatever choices you wanted, after that war started?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Sir, if not for these change in conditions and the compulsory

24 labour, would you have wanted to leave Bosanski Samac?

25 A. No.

Page 6973

1 Q. And the members of your family, would they have wanted to leave if

2 not for these change in conditions and the compulsory labour?

3 A. No.


5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I object to the

6 phrasing of the Prosecutor's question. He has asked two questions using

7 the term "forced labour." I think we can talk about work duty as my

8 colleague Mr. Pantelic has already pointed out, not forced labour.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Mr. Weiner.

10 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I used "compulsory labour" on both

11 occasions. The witness and the other witnesses have testified continually

12 that they did not volunteer to do any of this labour.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, it's all right to use compulsory labour. I

14 think maybe it's the interpretation which is not reflecting compulsory

15 labour but may be reflecting "forced labour."

16 I'd like to know from the interpreters, whether that is the same,

17 compulsory labour and forced labour, is that the same term in Serbo-Croat?

18 MR. PANTELIC: Maybe I can be of some assistance, Your Honour.

19 My colleagues just here told me that they received the term "forced

20 labour" in B/C/S language. Obviously compulsory labour is something

21 different.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: That's why I asked the interpreters.

23 MR. PANTELIC: My suggestion to interpreters would be --

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic, I didn't ask you to instruct the

25 interpreters. You are not here to instruct them. They know what to do.

Page 6974

1 I just wanted to ask whether the terms are different.

2 THE INTERPRETER: It is possible to make the distinction. We will

3 do that.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: They can make a distinction in the interpretation.

5 So Mr. Weiner, you can go ahead.

6 MR. WEINER: That's it. No further questions, Your Honour.

7 Thank you.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Cross-examination. Who is going to start? Or

9 there's no cross-examination? Hopefully.

10 Yes, Mr. Pisarevic.

11 Cross-examined by Mr. Pisarevic:

12 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. I

13 apologise for this shuffling. I will now start my questioning of

14 Mr. Nusret Hadzijusufovic.

15 Q. Good afternoon, sir. Mr. Nusret, I am Borislav Pisarevic, and I

16 represent Mr. Simo Zaric here.

17 I will be asking you questions pertaining to certain facts, and I

18 would appreciate it very much if you could answer to my questions with

19 "yes," "no," or "I don't know," if that is the case, all with a view to

20 completing this cross-examination as efficiently and as soon as possible.

21 Before I ask my first question, I wish to express to you on behalf

22 of my client, Mr. Simo Zaric, his heartfelt regret of everything that you

23 and your family have gone through and suffered during this unfortunate

24 conflict in the territory of the former Yugoslavia, Bosnia-Herzegovina,

25 and the town of Samac itself where you resided.

Page 6975

1 The first question I want to ask you is this: Are you aware of

2 the fact that the 4th Detachment of the Yugoslav People's Army, which was

3 part of the 17th tactical group, was established on the 5th of January,

4 1992? Yes or no.

5 A. No.

6 Q. Are you aware that on the 13th December, 1991, on the territory of

7 the former Socialist Federation Republic of Yugoslavia, the Presidency

8 proclaimed general mobilisation?

9 A. No.

10 Q. In the course of 1991 and 1992, were you a military conscript?

11 A. No.

12 Q. As a citizen, were you assigned to any other unit or formation or

13 any other defence structure in the former Yugoslavia?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Were you assigned to the Territorial Defence?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Were you relieved of military duty?

18 A. Yes, I was.

19 Q. Did you have an assignment to the civilian defence?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did you have an obligation to work in your company?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Sir, in the event of any immediate danger of war or war itself,

24 you, as a citizen of the federal republic of Yugoslavia had absolutely no

25 obligations or duties?

Page 6976

1 A. No.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner.

3 MR. WEINER: I just want to object at this time. This is part of

4 our continuing objection. He is asking questions concerning the term

5 "obligation." At that point, there was a new government. It was the BiH

6 government. He had no obligations. This strictly concerns assignments

7 under the former government. And I think his question should reflect

8 that. The term "obligation" is different because obligation you have to

9 believe that there is still a government existing and that you would be

10 obligated to serve. That government had split up. There was now a

11 republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, which had been recognised. So the term

12 "obligation" in incorrect.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: I thought that that is the other matter which has to

14 be decided after the trial as to what was the legitimate government, what

15 was the status of that territory.

16 MR. WEINER: Correct. However, the wording should be

17 "assignment." "Were you assigned by the former government?" And under

18 our previous objections the Court has usually required them to indicate

19 under the former government, that you had former assignments, or you were

20 assigned by reason of the former government's authorisation. You are

21 asking current obligations. How can this man determine if he had an

22 obligation. That is a decision that this Court or lawyers is going to

23 have to determine concerning what was a legitimate and illegitimate

24 government and he can't make a legal determination whether or not he has

25 obligations --

Page 6977












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 6978

1 JUDGE MUMBA: I think it's a question language. If the witness is

2 asked, "Did anybody tell you to work in here during a particular period?"

3 perhaps that would be much easier. It would be neutral and then the

4 witness won't know whether anybody did assign him anything at any

5 particular period during the material period that the indictment is

6 covering. I think it's a question of the term that you are using, if you

7 can make it a neutral term.

8 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. I am

9 questioning this witness precisely to the period of 1991 and to the period

10 until the 17th of April, 1994.

11 A. May I say something?

12 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] In this period, the Socialist

13 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia still existed, the Yugoslav People's Army

14 was still in existence. And as far as the legality of the existence and

15 presence of the JNA in the territory of BH, it is a different issue, a

16 legal issue. I cannot ask this witness questions that would put him in an

17 impossible position. I cannot now enter into a debate with the Prosecutor

18 as to what was legal and illegal and so on and so forth.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: As long as you have specified which period. You

20 have explained that your questions are pertaining to the period of 1991 up

21 to 17th April, though the transcript shows 1994, I'm sure you meant 1992.

22 So if you specify the period, and then you put the questions to the

23 witness. I'm sure you understand the objection by Mr. Weiner is the fact

24 that this witness is a fact witness, and he can only deal with that.

25 MR. WEINER: Just one other thing, Your Honour.

Page 6979

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina was recognised on the 6th of March, 1992. And Judicial

2 notice has been taken by this Chamber of that. However, the April 17th is

3 the date of the conflict, so there's -- any time you even get near that

4 question, there seems to be problems that arise. It would have to be --

5 JUDGE MUMBA: All right, yes. It may be that fact of the date of

6 the 6th of March can be taken into account by counsel.

7 MR. PANTELIC: No, Your Honour, it's a mistake of my learned

8 friend Mr. Weiner. It is actually 6th of April. It's not a recognition.

9 In general terms, it is only recognition of European Union and United

10 States of America which at that time was only 13 members of the world

11 community. That's the fact. Thank you.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic, you should wait until the Trial

13 Chamber gives you permission to speak. Because your colleague is on his

14 feet.

15 MR. PANTELIC: Sorry, Your Honour. That's my mistake. I do

16 apologise again. I'm very sorry. Terribly sorry.

17 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I wanted to

18 indicate to my learned colleague, Mr. Weiner, it's a question of the

19 approach. We know that Bosnia and Herzegovina was recognised by certain

20 countries on the 6th of April; however, our stand is that

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina became the legal subject, international legal subject,

22 on the 22nd of May, when it became a full member of the UN.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, can we stop that debate. Can we just go back

24 to cross-examination and see how the cross-examination goes. We are ready

25 to take our break, and we will continue the proceedings at 16.15 hours.

Page 6980

1 --- Recess taken at 3.47 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 4.16 p.m.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, cross-examination continues.

4 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

5 Q. Can you hear me, Mr. Hadzijusufovic?

6 A. Yes, I can.

7 Q. Can you explain to Their Honours, when did you -- were you free of

8 any obligations towards the military?

9 A. It was in 1988, and Dr. Stanko was a member of the committee when

10 that occurred.

11 Q. The Secretariat of the Defence gave you the document on the relief

12 of this obligation?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you, in the period from the 1st of January, 1992, until the

15 17th of April, 1992, did you know of the existence of the 4th Detachment

16 of the JNA in Samac, the 1st of January, 1992?

17 A. No.

18 Q. You stated that you absolutely did not know about the existence of

19 the 4th Detachment in Bosanski Samac.

20 A. That -- I have heard that.

21 Q. Can we agree that you had some knowledge that you've heard that in

22 the city of Samac, there was the 4th Detachment in Bosanski Samac?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you know the fact? Are you aware of the fact that the command

25 of the 4th Detachment was in the building, the SIT headquarters, in the

Page 6981

1 period February, March, to the 17th of April, 1992?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did you move -- pass by that building on your way to work and when

4 returning from work?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. In this building, the SIT, the building called Mladost, did you

7 see the banner of the Socialist Republic of Yugoslavia and of the Republic

8 of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you know or did you hear that the commander of the 4th

11 Detachment was Radovan Antic who was a reserve officer?

12 A. I heard that during the war.

13 Q. Did you know that the deputy commander of the 4th Detachment of

14 the JNA was Jovo Savic, the reserve captain also from Bosanski Samac?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you know that Simo Zaric is a reserve sergeant, and that he

17 was also responsible for information and questions of the morale issues?

18 A. I didn't know that.

19 Q. Did you know that the operations officer in the command of the 4th

20 Detachment of the JNA was the reserve officer Mehmed Vukovic?

21 A. I did not know that.

22 Q. Can you confirm that you know Mr. Mehmed Vukovic?

23 A. Yes, I do know him.

24 Q. Is that same person, Mehmed Vukovic, who spoke to you about the

25 demolishing of the Catholic church?

Page 6982

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did Mehmed Vukovic ever speak about the fact that he had been a

3 member and an operations officer in the 4th Detachment?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did you ever see the list of members of the 4th Detachment?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did the members of the 4th Detachment walk around town in the JNA

8 uniforms?

9 A. Depending.

10 THE INTERPRETER: The witness is saying depending on which period.

11 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. We are still in the period of prior to the 17th of April, 1992.

13 A. Please a more close date.

14 Q. From the 5th of January, to the 17th of April, 1992, did you ever

15 see members of the 4th Detachment walking in uniforms?

16 A. I saw them a few days before the outbreak of war. And more when I

17 saw Tota and Danilo.

18 Q. Did you see them walking in the town along the street?

19 A. I saw them walking by my street. I didn't see them in town

20 itself.

21 Q. Did they carry also weapons?

22 A. Yes, they did, these three.

23 Q. Did you ever see the soldiers of the 4th Detachment lined up?

24 A. I saw them on Sokolusa, not in military uniform. That is the next

25 question.

Page 6983

1 Q. Did you know the number of members of the 4th Detachment?

2 A. No.

3 Q. And in your statement, you stated that the civilians you've seen

4 attending military exercise, you identified them as members of the 4th

5 Detachment?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can you answer the question: In what way, how did you identify

8 them as such?

9 A. Because I saw them during the war in uniform, these very same

10 people.

11 Q. May we agree, then, that when you saw them then, at that military

12 exercise, at that time, you didn't know that they were members of the 4th

13 Detachment?

14 A. From talking to others, I knew it. However, I know.

15 Q. It implies that you personally did not see and personally weren't

16 convinced they were members of the 4th Detachment?

17 A. I was convinced of it during the war.

18 Q. When you were watching this military exercise, by no sign or

19 insignia, you couldn't determine that these were members of the 4th

20 Detachment?

21 A. They had no insignia.

22 Q. May we then agree that your knowledge concerning the 4th

23 Detachment of the JNA are mainly based on hearsay, based on sources which

24 aren't reliable and are not sure?

25 MR. WEINER: I'd object to that.

Page 6984

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

2 MR. WEINER: I'd object to that, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. What are you --

4 MR. WEINER: He is saying number one, the information that you

5 have is mainly based on hearsay. Hearsay is a legal term. If it is an

6 admission from a member of the 4th Detachment which he has testified to,

7 then it's not hearsay because it's an admission against interest

8 technically. So legally it is not hearsay. I think he should use

9 another term if he wants to say that he received it from what type of

10 sources or other sources, but the use of hearsay I don't think is a valid

11 question, because you're asking him to make a legal decision as to whether

12 or not something is hearsay.

13 If you consider the 4th Detachment an illegal operation or just as

14 a group itself, the fact that one person in that group admits to being

15 part of that group or tells him he's part of that group, that would fall

16 under the exception to the hearsay rule of being an admission basically,

17 similar to a party opponent, or I would at least argue that it's similar

18 to a party opponent, so hearsay isn't the proper term.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Mr. Lazarevic.

20 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, we are not receiving translation.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we find out why there's no interpretation?

22 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, at a certain point,

23 I didn't have the translation. I don't know why.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Now you have it. Can you hear?

25 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Now I hear, Your Honour.

Page 6985

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Maybe Mr. Weiner can repeat his grounds for

2 objection. Slowly.

3 MR. WEINER: Okay, I'm sorry, Your Honour. He asked the question

4 of whether or not the information that he received is based on hearsay,

5 and then he also questioned the reliability of sources. Number one, I

6 would say that's a multiple issue question. Is it based on hearsay? Is

7 it based on unreliable sources? But first let's start off with the

8 hearsay. Hearsay is a legal phrase, whether or not something is hearsay

9 is a legal decision. The fact that someone says something to another

10 person doesn't automatically make it hearsay, even if it's said outside of

11 the context here. It is -- it could fall under an exception to the

12 hearsay rule, and then not technically be hearsay, or if you want to call

13 it admissible hearsay at the least. So whether or not something is

14 hearsay I don't think is the proper question to ask this witness.

15 Number two, he also asked a multiple question which is in addition

16 to whether or not it's hearsay, whether or not it's from unreliable

17 sources. That's a multiple question. If he says yes, is he saying yes to

18 it's hearsay or is he saying yes to its unreliable sources. He should ask

19 separate questions; if he got from other persons and then if he got it

20 from unreliable sources. And my question relating to hearsay was -- my

21 issue linked to hearsay was the fact that someone who is a member of that

22 organisation provides information to him, that that person is a member of

23 the organisation, that other persons are members of the organisation,

24 would that become an admission? And if it is an admission, whether it's a

25 declaration against interest or it's just an admission, whether a party

Page 6986

1 opponent or just an admission period, does that take it outside the realm

2 of hearsay. Therefore, I think it's an improper question.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, counsel. I was waiting for --

4 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I understood.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: What you can do is rephrase your question, and make

6 sure it's only one question at a time.

7 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

8 Q. Mr. Hadzijusufovic, would you please answer, in what way did you

9 find out who the members of the 4th Detachment are?

10 A. I saw them in war, and through talks with individual members of

11 the 4th Detachment.

12 Q. Can you quote names of certain people that you had seen at the

13 exercise in Sokolusa for whom you assert that they are members of the 4th

14 Detachment?

15 A. All of those that I have spoken of, all of those who questioned me

16 and who were beating me at that time. The names, Antic, Tota, Nikica,

17 Nenad Bijelic, he son of Smotar [As interpreted]. No other names.

18 Q. Did anybody ask you to join the 4th Detachment?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did anybody force you to join -- did anybody coerce you? The fact

21 that you did not join the 4th Detachment, that is a reflection of your

22 free will.

23 A. It is a reflection of my opinion.

24 Q. And your personal opinion --

25 MR. ZECEVIC: I'm sorry.

Page 6987

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

2 MR. ZECEVIC: The answer to the first question on page 40, line

3 19, is not in the transcript, and the witness answered "no." The question

4 was: "Did anybody force you to join -- did anybody coerce you to join the

5 4th Detachment?" The witness said "no." And the answer is not in the

6 transcript.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Perhaps Mr. Pisarevic can refer that back to

8 the witness.

9 MR. ZECEVIC: Thank you.

10 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Mr. Hadzijusufovic, did anybody coerce you to join the 4th

12 Detachment of the JNA?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Can you tell the counsel here, the Trial Chamber, when you were

15 watching them, what were they doing there?

16 A. Simply training, physical training preparation, running. Simply

17 running.

18 Q. Did they do anything else?

19 A. No.

20 Q. So this running, here in front of the Trial Chamber, you described

21 it as "military exercise." Is that it?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In your statement, you've mentioned your neighbour, Mr. Slobodan

24 Kukrika. You said that he had a submachine-gun 84.

25 A. Yes.

Page 6988

1 MR. LAZAREVIC: Excuse me, Your Honour, we are not particularly

2 pleased with the translation. It is not submachine-gun. Actually, it is

3 a machine-gun, a large one. It is not a small size machine-gun. It is a

4 huge machine-gun.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: What you're saying is it shouldn't be translated as

6 submachine-gun. It is just a machine-gun.

7 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters disagree.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: The interpreters disagree. Go ahead,

9 Mr. Pisarevic. It was a gun. I don't think -- because he is just

10 describing -- anyway, you go ahead with your cross-examination and see

11 whether or not the type will actually matter in which case you'll have to

12 clarify it.

13 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Mr. Hadzijusufovic, you've served the army, the JNA army.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what type of weapon was shown to

17 you by your neighbour Slobodan Kukrika?

18 A. When I was serving the army, this type of weaponry didn't exist,

19 that type of weapon.

20 Q. However, you mentioned to the Trial Chamber that it was a

21 submachine-gun 84, light machine-gun 84.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Is that machine-gun by its dimensions bigger than other infantry

24 weapons like rifles, the calibre?

25 A. The calibre is the same.

Page 6989

1 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, the witness stated -- first he

2 answered "Yes, but the calibre is different." So the question was about

3 the size of the weapon, and he answered yes, it has a bigger size.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Because the answer, the one for the line 24 where he

5 says "the calibre is the same." Are you saying the answer, it isn't

6 correctly recorded?

7 MR. LAZAREVIC: No. This part of the answer is correct, but first

8 he says "yes."

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Which question?

10 MR. LAZAREVIC: It is the same question that you are looking at.


12 MR. LAZAREVIC: It's line 22. First it is the question of the

13 dimension of this weapon, and then the calibre.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Maybe we can clear that by the question being

15 repeated, and then the witness can answer. And I think there's a slight

16 problem -- the slight problem we are having is there's overlapping. So

17 the witness should wait, pause a minute after counsel has completed asking

18 the question to allow interpretation of his question to be completed, and

19 then you start answering, and then your answer will also be interpreted at

20 the right time and it will be completed. Because when there's

21 overlapping, then we have problems with the record of the transcript.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am sorry about this, Your Honours.

23 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. This weapon, this light machine-gun that was shown to you by

25 Slobodan Kukrika, was it in terms of size larger than traditional infantry

Page 6990

1 weapons such as automatic rifles and others?

2 A. It depends on which automatic rifle. Do you mean Kalashnikov or

3 what?

4 Q. The automatic rifles which were standard weapons for the Yugoslav

5 People's Army produced by Zastava factory?

6 A. It was larger.

7 Q. Did Mr. Kukrika tell you on that occasion that he was a member of

8 the 4th Detachment of the Yugoslav People's Army?

9 A. No.

10 Q. And did he tell you that the weapon in question was received by

11 him in his capacity of member of the Yugoslav People's Army and the 4th

12 Detachment?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Do you know that Mustafa Omeranovic, also a neighbour of yours,

15 was a commander of the platoon in the 4th Detachment of the JNA?

16 A. No.

17 Q. You also mentioned another neighbour nicknamed Came?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can we agree?

20 A. Yes, I did.

21 Q. Can we agree that this person is, in fact, Cazim Atic?

22 A. He is. I don't know his first name but his last name was Atic.

23 He lived in the third house away from mine.

24 Q. Is he a Muslim by ethnicity?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6991

1 Q. Is he the one that told you that he was a member of the 4th

2 Detachment and that he got his weapon from the 4th Detachment?

3 A. No.

4 Q. You spoke about Tota. That is, in fact, Nizam Ramusovic, isn't

5 it?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You know[redacted]?

8 A. Yes, I do regrettably.

9 Q. He is a Muslim, isn't he,[redacted]?

10 A. He is.

11 Q. And do you know that he was one of the managing directors in the

12 Mebos company where you used to work?

13 A. He wasn't a director.

14 Q. Was he one of the managerial staff?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you know that he, too, was a member of the 4th Detachment?

17 A. Unfortunately he was.

18 Q. Do you know Nasir Ramusovic,[redacted]?

19 A. I do.

20 Q. Do you know that he was one of the commanders in the 4th

21 Detachment?

22 A. No.

23 Q. We will stay for a while on the events prior to the 17th of April,

24 1992. You are aware that in the town of Samac, various sabotage actions

25 took place in the town?

Page 6992

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You are also aware of the events that occurred in the course of

3 1992 such as the killing of two Muslim young men by a bomb that exploded

4 in the Valentino cafe?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You also mentioned in your testimony that you happened to be on

7 the spot, on the corner of Vuk Karadzic Street when shooting occurred, the

8 shooting was directed at the vehicle driven by Mersad Mesic?

9 A. I wasn't on the spot. It was further up.

10 Q. But when you arrived on the spot, did Mersad Mesic, Nizam

11 Ramusovic, and Danilo Vitomir wear civilian clothes or military uniform?

12 A. Mersad was in civilian clothes and Tota was in uniform.

13 Q. How was Danilo Vitomir dressed?

14 A. I couldn't see him very well. He was turned away from me.

15 Q. Did Nizam Ramusovic, nicknamed Tota, have a full of set of

16 military uniform, or was he wearing just a military shirt?

17 A. He was wearing a jacket. Only his footwear was military.

18 Q. Did you see on that occasion, while you were on the spot, that

19 they were armed?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Please answer this: What kind of weapon did Mersad Mesic carry?

22 A. Tota had a Kalashnikov, and I don't remember about Mersad. I

23 can't tell you precisely.

24 Q. If I understood you correctly, you are saying that Tota, that is

25 Nizam Ramusovic, was carrying a Kalashnikov?

Page 6993












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 6994

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you know that weapons of the Kalashnikov type was never part of

3 the weaponry of the Yugoslav People's Army?

4 A. No, I don't.

5 Q. I understand you.

6 A. But I did see it in wartime, and I saw it there.

7 Q. You said on that occasion that on that day, you saw inside the

8 vehicle those people driving and shooting, meaning Mersad Mesic, Nizam

9 Ramusovic, and Danilo Vitomir?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you tell me, did you see them just once or several times?

12 A. Three times. I saw them passing by my street, along my street,

13 three times.

14 Q. You also said that Safet, a policeman, came out into the street in

15 front of them and riddled their vehicle with bullets?

16 A. Yes, that's what I heard.

17 Q. Are you aware of the fact that this Safet Srna was a reserve

18 policeman?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you also hear on that occasion that he was accompanied by

21 another reserve policeman Adis Izetbegovic?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And can we agree that this event took place on the 2nd of April,

24 1992?

25 A. I can't tell you the date. I don't remember the date.

Page 6995

1 Q. Are you aware of the fact that Safet Srna and Adis Izetbegovic

2 are both Muslims?

3 A. They are Muslims both of them.

4 Q. After that event, did you happen to see in town Safet Srna and

5 Adis Izetbegovic?

6 A. No.

7 Q. And did you, perhaps, hear that they had escaped to the Republic

8 of Croatia?

9 A. No.

10 Q. You also stated that near the house of Mujaga Omeranovic you had

11 seen two trucks?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Will you tell me if those were civilian or military trucks?

14 A. Later, after I was examined, my memory returned to me and I can

15 say that those were trucks from the separation company, meaning civilian

16 trucks.

17 Q. And how about the persons who unloaded that case? Were they

18 wearing uniforms or civilian clothes?

19 A. Civilian clothes.

20 Q. And what about Mustafa Omeranovic and Mr. Zaric, who you came --

21 you saw, how were they dressed?

22 A. Zaric was wearing trousers, and Mujaga Omeranovic had a sweater

23 on.

24 Q. Did you pass close by them?

25 A. No, I was just in the same street.

Page 6996

1 Q. That spot where you were passing by, was it well-lit?

2 A. Rather well-lit.

3 Q. Can you tell us, what sort of jacket was Mr. Zaric wearing when

4 you saw him?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Were you then on good terms with Mr. Omeranovic and Mr. Zaric?

7 A. On pretty good terms.

8 Q. Did you greet them? Did you say anything when you were passing

9 by, as "hello"?

10 A. No.

11 Q. The house of Mr. Omeranovic, is it close to the piazza in Samac?

12 A. Yes, it is.

13 Q. Was it a frequent normal occurrence for those trucks to bring

14 goods to that marketplace and to stay parked there?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. We will now move to the period after the 17th of April, 1992. And

17 I have a couple of questions here. If I understood you correctly, you

18 said that all Muslims and Croats had the obligation to report or get

19 registered at the headquarters of the Territorial Defence?

20 A. Yes. Those who were informed so by Subasic and other couriers.

21 Q. Do you know that there was a publicly proclaimed summons, a

22 call-up, broadcast on Radio Samac that all persons should report to the

23 Territorial Defence staff?

24 A. No, at least I didn't hear anything of the kind.

25 Q. When you were registered at the Territorial Defence headquarters,

Page 6997

1 did nobody tell you that you should report to the Buducnost company?

2 A. No.

3 Q. And did you hear the publicly broadcast call-up for all members of

4 Territorial Defence, or rather all persons registered in the Territorial

5 Defence to report to the courtyard of the Buducnost company?

6 A. No.

7 Q. When you got there, when did you arrive at the Buducnost company?

8 A. My son and I went there when we were asked to do so by Subasic.

9 Q. But when you and your son got there, to the courtyard of the

10 Buducnost company, you found there a certain number of members of the JNA,

11 too, didn't you?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did you see on that occasion Jovo Savic, an officer, a reserve

14 officer, rather?

15 A. I don't remember. At least, I don't know by name. I don't recall

16 who Jovo Savic was.

17 Q. You mentioned the name Jovica in your testimony? This Jovica had

18 a house behind Trivo Lukic's house.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can we then agree that this person is Jovo Savic?

21 A. That first name and last name tell me nothing, but I know the

22 nickname Jovica and he lived three houses away from me. I don't know him

23 by full name. I know the person. I know he lives there.

24 Q. Were there any persons, together with him, who were wearing the

25 JNA uniform?

Page 6998

1 A. There was Simo Zaric.

2 Q. In addition to those two, were there any others?

3 A. There were, but I didn't look closely. I was watching my son, and

4 I was watching my own arm.

5 Q. On all those members of the Yugoslav People's Army, did you see

6 right next to the epaulet on the left arm a white rag, like an armband?

7 A. I didn't pay attention.

8 Q. But at that time, did you sometimes see on soldiers any armbands

9 or rags on the sleeve?

10 A. I did, but they were red. Not rags really.

11 Q. You mean armbands?

12 A. Yes, something on the arm, like a decoration or something.

13 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Pisarevic, are e talking about an armband

14 which would be worn on the arm, or are we talking about a ribbon attached

15 to an epaulet, because the two seem very different and we have already

16 heard from this witness that the non-Serb population would be made to wear

17 white armbands. So I think we want to be clear about an armband and

18 something attached to the epaulet, like a ribbon.

19 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I asked about those

20 people who were wearing military uniforms in specific. Those people were

21 wearing those ribbons behind the epaulet, but a large number of members of

22 the 4th Detachment did not wear any uniform. So on their sweaters or

23 whatever they were wearing, they wore those bands on the sleeve. And some

24 witnesses have already confirmed this. But since Mr. Hadzijusufovic has

25 been questioned as to military personnel, I didn't want to ask any

Page 6999

1 specific questions about the others.

2 Q. Witness, you said that you had been to Odzak.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You also said that you had been to Dubica?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Please, this Dubica that you had visited, is it a Serbian village?

7 A. Yes. I have been to both places named Dubica, both Croatian and

8 Serbian.

9 Q. So you have been to both Croatian Dubica and Serbian Dubica?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You answered that you spent some time with a person in Dubica

12 working for him?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Was it in the Serbian or Croatian Dubica?

15 A. That was with Stevo Rundo in Serbian Dubica. It was right across

16 the street from the Serbian church. His house was there, right across the

17 street from the Serbian church.

18 Q. When you came to that Dubica, Serbian Dubica, were many houses

19 burned down?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Was the property of these people taken away or destroyed?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you ever go to Trnjak?

24 A. I went passed through it prior to the war.

25 Q. During the war, you were not in the village of Trnjak during the

Page 7000

1 war?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Do you know that it is a Serbian village?

4 A. Yes, I know.

5 Q. And these houses in Serbian Dubica which were burned down belonged

6 to Serbs?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You also spoke about the fact that you and another person,

9 Rakocevic, that you covered a roof, a structure for the roof?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. That you removed in Odzak or Croatian Dubica?

12 A. In Croatian Dubica.

13 Q. And this construction material for the roof, you then moved it and

14 put it up in Srpska -- in Serbian Dubica?

15 A. Yes, behind the house of Father Stevo, Stevo Rundo, there's

16 another house, another building, and we placed it on the -- put it on

17 that.

18 Q. Was that house burned down and the roof burned down?

19 A. The one we were placing it on no, but the house in front of it,

20 yes, did burn down.

21 Q. On the territory of Odzak where you were moving around, did you

22 see Muslims and Croats living in their apartments or in their villages?

23 A. No.

24 Q. When leaving, when going and taking -- removing property from

25 family homes, did the -- were the owners present there?

Page 7001

1 A. No.

2 Q. In your opinion, was that abandoned property?

3 MR. WEINER: I'd object to that.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

5 MR. WEINER: He is asking the witness abandoned. Abandoned is a

6 legal term that calls for legal judgment. If he wants to rephrase if, if

7 he wants to say there was no one there. But abandoned is a legal

8 conclusion.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yeah. In fact, the witness's opinion in this type

10 of evidence is not what you should be asking for because this is a fact

11 witness.

12 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honours, with the

13 position you've stated.

14 Q. And the property question, the property that you were removing,

15 that you were taking, was it usually most frequently given to refugees,

16 and persons that had no property whatsoever?

17 A. Are you thinking of Samac or Dubica?

18 Q. Dubica.

19 A. I did this only for Stevo Rundo. When I was in Dubica, I didn't

20 drive for anybody else. I drove for him. I came in front of the

21 retirement home, and a person in a military uniform waited for me. His

22 name is Stevo, going under the nickname of Rundo. He lived in Ive Lole

23 Ribara Street. He told me you're going with me to Dubica and help me and

24 my father to repair our home. He placed us on a tractor, and the pontoon

25 bridge, we went to Dubica. The first work we did for him, let me say that

Page 7002

1 for Stevo, his father and mother, I had absolutely no problems. They said

2 nothing offensive. I never felt that these people would be violent. It

3 was said to me, I had to go there and work there. So we stayed there for

4 five or six days, and we were bringing to him furniture and also equipment

5 from Croatian Dubica to his house straight up there. And thus, in five or

6 six days, we went with tractor, and then we crossed that bridge which was

7 later toppled by high waters, and we stayed with him ten days. And then

8 this other building, which was there without a roof, I said "how come"?

9 He said there was -- a gas cylinder was placed in there and exploded. So

10 therefore, we went to another building, and we moved that roof material.

11 We stayed ten days, and we returned to Samac. And Rakocevic stayed in

12 Samac. And I and Stevo via Odzak, we went to do some other work. I was

13 loading on his trailer wood, firewood, and then we returned in the

14 evenings. And this lasted for another five days. It lasted -- he was --

15 for a certain period of time, they said "That's enough for you. You have

16 enough wood." And I never -- I didn't work for him any more. I had to do

17 all of that.

18 Q. All that you were bringing in, driving, it was -- Stevo didn't

19 find in his home when he came back?

20 A. No, he didn't. But what we did bring in was more than enough for

21 three houses.

22 Q. Do you know the fact that on the territory of Odzak, precisely

23 people from Serbian Dubica, Novi Grad, which was also a Serb settlement,

24 and Trnjak, that they were detained by the Croatian Defence Council, HVO?

25 A. Well, they told me that when we were -- when they came through the

Page 7003

1 exchange.

2 Q. Do you know that these houses had been burned down at the moment

3 when the HVO was withdrawing with its population to Croatia?

4 A. I was not present there.

5 Q. Did you hear anything about it?

6 A. I heard about it after the exchange. I had a friend from Dubica.

7 Q. Mr. Hadzijusufovic, we are coming to an end. I would only

8 like to ask you another single question: You've said that you've known my

9 client Mr. Simo Zaric some 30 years?

10 A. Yes, I do.

11 Q. Can we agree or do you agree that Mr. Zaric was a person who was

12 respected in the town of Samac, that he never manifested national or

13 nationalistic characteristics, traits, and that in principle, that he was

14 a popular person among the townspeople of Samac?

15 A. Yes.

16 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Trial Chamber. Thank

17 you, Mr. Hadzijusufovic.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before the war.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner?

20 MR. WEINER: The transcript, I think, is wrong. It says "before

21 the war".

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, that was the answer. The answer is "Yes,

23 before the war." That is page 56, line 12, isn't it? Line 12.

24 Mr. Weiner, that's the answer you're talking about?

25 MR. WEINER: Yes, and it had Mr. Pisarevic saying "before the

Page 7004

1 war". Now it has disappeared.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: What I'm saying is the answer at page 56, line 12, I

3 understood it to say "Yes, before the war."

4 MR. WEINER: I thought the witness said "before the war."

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, that's what I'm saying, but the transcript has

6 left out "before the war."

7 MR. WEINER: Okay, thank you. Sorry.

8 MR. ZECEVIC: Just a clarification in this respect: The witness

9 answered yes, and then when Mr. Pisarevic said thank you, he said "before

10 the war," just as an addendum to his answer. Yes.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: But the complete answer is "Yes, before the war."

12 MR. ZECEVIC: Yes, I believe it to be but it wasn't said in a

13 certain line.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, there was a pause. Yes, agreed.

15 Mr. Lukic.

16 Cross-examined by Mr. Lukic:

17 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon. My name is Novak Lukic. I will

18 carry on the cross-examination. I would like to clarify certain facts

19 that you have been presenting to us during the examination-in-chief.

20 First of all, I would like to clarify one matter. Your first

21 discussion with prosecutors you had in the 1st of May, 1998, with the --

22 A. My family and friends.

23 Q. Did you speak personally with the investigators of the Tribunal?

24 A. I don't know of whom you are thinking.

25 Q. Agnes Inderhaug and Dijana Barbaric?

Page 7005

1 A. Yes, I participated in that --

2 Q. Who else participated in that talk?

3 A. My wife and son. It was a discussion, a talk we had, of

4 information.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel. If you look at the transcript, line 19 of

6 page 57, the names you mentioned of the persons, the investigators of the

7 Tribunal, are not recorded. Can you just repeat the names.


9 Q. [Interpretation] In the minutes, this talk was held with

10 investigator Agnes Inderhaug, and translator Dijana Barbaric.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, thank you. You may proceed.


13 Q. [Interpretation] At the time, you did not sign the minutes or any

14 statement?

15 A. It was an informative talk that a trial would take place in

16 cooperation with a translator who didn't perform quite well.

17 Q. But you signed at the time no written statement?

18 A. No.

19 Q. After your arrival to The Hague and giving a statement, you had a

20 talk with the Prosecutor?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. On that occasion, the Prosecutor submitted this note to you which

23 was carried out by the investigator, and you made your comments and they

24 made addendas?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7006

1 Q. We can agree that this statement had been read to you prior to

2 your testimony.

3 A. It stated that it's an informal discussion, and that it's an

4 informal, nonvalid document.

5 Q. You've given your comments, your corrections to this?

6 A. Yes, I gave a statement.

7 Q. You gave a statement to the Prosecutor?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you sign the statement in front of -- to the Prosecutor?

10 A. Here?

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. I gave an oath.

13 Q. Did you sign anything written when giving the statement to the

14 Prosecutor?

15 A. The statement I gave to the Prosecutor, I made a solemn oath on

16 it.

17 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Lukic? When exactly was this?

18 Because it says after your arrival to The Hague on page 58, line 13. Is

19 that this week, or is it on some other trip to The Hague? Maybe we could

20 have a clarification on that, please.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This is what I wanted to clarify, but

22 probably I could clarify that better with the colleague Prosecutor. The

23 Defence received two documents from the Prosecutor without dates but are

24 statements of the witness concerning a statement he never made, he never

25 signed. I wanted to know that we -- whether he signed anything or he just

Page 7007

1 made an oath on this statement which he --

2 JUDGE MUMBA: I think the witness can answer.

3 MR. WEINER: Sure, okay. I was just going to explain.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. If we need your explanation -- unless

5 Mr. Lukic wants an explanation from the Prosecutor. I thought those were

6 questions the witness could answer.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, he can. I would only like to

8 hear whether the witness signed anything to the Prosecutor.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you can go ahead with the witness. You can ask

10 him.


12 Q. [Interpretation] Again, I shall ask the question. I assume that

13 you stand after every statement you make, the oath is not a statement. I

14 wanted to hear whether in the statement to the Prosecutor you've signed it

15 or not.

16 A. No, but I said that with the lawyer that I fully agree with what

17 has been presented to me. Now, this is on my last trip, my last arrival.

18 Q. So the Prosecutor presented to you this note which he made in

19 connection with the talks -- the interview he had with you?

20 A. Yes, on the last occasion when I arrived here.

21 Q. Therefore, we can agree with the -- we can agree with your

22 statements contained in this written interview that you have made with the

23 Prosecutor this most recent time?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. We have to raise this question because this statement hasn't been

Page 7008

1 signed, and we want to know behind which statements you stand. That is

2 why we have to ask this question.

3 At the beginning of the statement, you said you were from an old

4 family from Samac?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. My impression was, and I would like to ask you in connection with

7 that, whether you knew well your neighbours, the inhabitants of Sana?

8 A. Those who interested me, I knew them well.

9 Q. In connection in your statement -- answer to colleague Pisarevic

10 and in your statement yesterday that you knew everybody, all members of

11 the 4th Detachment?

12 A. I knew them personally.

13 Q. So you knew many inhabitants of Sana at the time?

14 A. Yes, I knew them.

15 Q. I assume that even today, you have in your memory the faces and

16 the names of those people who interested you, as you stated?

17 A. Yes, I remember them.

18 Q. In your statement yesterday, you said that occasionally you went

19 to the Cafe AS?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. As I understood it, it was after the end of the second shift,

22 around 10.00 p.m., between 8.00 p.m. and 10.00 p.m.

23 Could you be a bit more precise when occasionally?

24 A. Maybe once a week or maybe two or three times in a row. But that

25 would be just a single drink, and then I would leave.

Page 7009












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13 English transcripts.













Page 7010

1 Q. Do you know Omer Nalic?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. Did you see him in the AS Cafe?

4 A. Occasionally. I didn't go there often. Maybe I saw him once.

5 Q. Alija Futozovic, do you know him?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. Did you see him in the Cafe AS when you visited it?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Do you know Izetbegovic?

10 A. Yes, I do know him.

11 Q. The same question, did you see him in the AS Cafe?

12 A. No.

13 Q. What about Martin Benic?

14 A. There are two of them.

15 Q. Did you see any one of the two in the AS Cafe?

16 A. No.

17 Q. And Ivitsa Trgovac, going by the nickname of Koka, do you know

18 that person?

19 A. I knew Koka.

20 Q. Did you see him in the AS Cafe?

21 A. No.

22 Q. I would also like to -- and what service did you -- what branch

23 did you serve?

24 A. The infantry.

25 Q. Immediate -- when were you relieved of military service,

Page 7011

1 immediately after you served compulsory?

2 A. It was in 1988.

3 Q. And did you up until then have your also plan and assignment?

4 A. Yes, I was in the reserve as sergeant.

5 Q. As an officer in the reserve, you knew what it means not to

6 respond to -- if you have a call-up?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You described that on the 17th in the morning, you were also asked

9 for identity papers in front of your house, and these people had the White

10 Eagles insignia?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You also added that they asked you whether you had weapons in the

13 house?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. They asked for your ID?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. They didn't enter your home?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Although you're a Muslim, they only asked you whether you had

20 weapons? Is that it?

21 A. They asked whether somebody else came to us. There was a team, a

22 group of people who went in front with two white flags, and the military

23 went by the side. They came to me about an hour later.

24 Q. And you told these two people that nobody else turned up in my

25 house prior to that.

Page 7012

1 Q. Did they assign, did they note down any data in connection with

2 the talk?

3 A. No.

4 Q. I wish to question you about a search which hasn't come up in the

5 talk with the Prosecutor. What do you know about the search of house of

6 Hanka Secic?

7 A. That is not a home. It was an apartment, and it's my mother. Two

8 policemen came to her apartment at 1.00 a.m., searched the apartment.

9 There was no electricity. They did that by candlelight. They searched

10 the apartment, made also a report, a statement, and she had to sign that

11 statement. They told her that they were looking for a radio transmitter,

12 and they didn't put that on the paper. And I submitted that document.

13 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours, I would now like to tender this document

14 that the witness stated to the Prosecution and the Prosecution made

15 available to us, and if this is admitted, I would like to ask a couple of

16 more questions on this subject.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is my mother. There's nothing

18 to hide about it.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: What I wanted to find out about the statement you're

20 talking about, is this the one which the Prosecutor and the investigators

21 were writing down as they were discussing with the witness? Which one is

22 this? Is it the statement of the witness, and we all know what a

23 statement is, or is it the Prosecutors' notes or investigators' notes?

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It's neither. This is a record of

25 the search of apartment and other premises drawn up by the Public Security

Page 7013

1 Station of Samac, and the apartment in question belonged to the witness's

2 mother. It's just a document made available by this witness to the OTP

3 when he gave his interview, and it is evidence to the facts.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: I see. All right. You can show it to the witness

5 first. It is translated, is it?

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, it has an authorised translation

7 attached to it.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think it would be a good idea if

10 the usher could put the B/C/S version on the ELMO so that the accused can

11 see the document.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I'm sure that can be done.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. This document I asked you about, and you replied that your mother

15 provided it to you. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What I would like to know about this document is this: On page 2,

18 it's the third paragraph from the bottom, and it says: "At the request of

19 the persons attending the search, the following is included in the

20 record." Do you see what it says on the form?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did your mother tell you what she wrote down in the record?

23 Because we can't really see it in any of the copies you provided.

24 A. She didn't tell me anything.

25 Q. Did she tell you that she wrote any remarks regarding the search?

Page 7014

1 A. No. It sufficed that they had come to her apartment in the middle

2 of the night.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like for this document to be

4 given a number for identification and to tender it.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Any objection from the Prosecution?

6 MR. WEINER: No objection at all, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Shall we have the number as an exhibit,

8 please.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. The English translation will

10 be D31/ -- no, sorry. I apologise. D32/3. And B/C/S will be D32/3 ter.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. You can go ahead.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Shall we now take our break, because

13 I'm going to move on to different topic.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. We'll take a break and resume at 1800

15 hours.

16 --- Recess taken at 5.44 p.m.

17 --- On resuming at 6.02 p.m.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic, you can proceed.

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. I would now like to move on to another topic. Yesterday, and

21 earlier today, you described at some length your work during the time when

22 you were under work obligation. In those seven months, did you come to

23 the retirement home every day at 6.00 a.m.

24 A. No.

25 Q. Depending on what?

Page 7015

1 A. Depending on where I worked, depending on whether there was

2 shelling, depending on fuel. And when I would come back from one

3 assignment, I would not report for one or two days afterwards.

4 Q. And your obligation was to come to the retirement home every day

5 that you were in Samac at 6.00 a.m.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And you said yourself that there had been cases when you would

8 fail to report for one or two days after a work assignment?

9 A. The people I worked for told me that I could not report.

10 Q. Were you punished in any way for not reporting?

11 A. No, nobody knew that I had come back.

12 Q. So after returning from work in the field where you had spent some

13 time, you were not duty-bound to report to the retirement home

14 immediately?

15 A. I was.

16 Q. But still, you didn't do so, not every time?

17 A. I didn't.

18 Q. And you were not punished by anyone?

19 A. They didn't know. They didn't know I had come back.

20 Q. Because you failed to report when necessary upon return from the

21 field.

22 A. It was never strictly defined how long I would stay on a certain

23 assignment in the field. And I did that after my children had left Samac.

24 Q. Those times when you did report to the retirement home to go and

25 work, was it at 6.00 a.m.?

Page 7016

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. I would like to ask you a couple of questions regarding the

3 building of the retirement home. It had two floors?

4 A. More.

5 Q. How many floors, if you know?

6 A. I didn't count.

7 Q. But can we agree that the premises of the retirement home occupied

8 the ground and the first floor?

9 A. On the ground floor, there was a retirement home in a big room.

10 On the side, there was a small room. And upstairs, there were offices.

11 Q. Can we agree, or rather do you know that before the war, the local

12 community was also located on those premises?

13 A. It was upstairs.

14 Q. And there was also a conference room?

15 A. Yes, there was one on the right-hand side, but it wasn't big.

16 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Lukic. The translation on line 4

17 of page 68 talks about the local community was also located on those

18 premises. I'm not sure that I understand what the "local community" means

19 in that context. I wonder whether you might clarify that.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Do you want me to explain, or shall I

21 phrase it as a question to the witness?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You'd better explain.

23 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Well, either way, it might just be translation.

24 In any event, either way, yourself or the witness.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Here, I'll try to explain briefly.

Page 7017

1 The local commune under the constitution of the Socialist Federal Republic

2 of Yugoslavia was the basic territorial unit in the administrative

3 structure, but it did not have powers in itself; rather, it was part of

4 the municipality which, as a territorial unit, had all the organs of local

5 authority, the Court, the police, government, et cetera. So the local

6 commune is a territorial unit in which, as the constitution put it, the

7 citizens dealt with all their day-to-day affairs within the

8 self-management system. And thus, in Samac, it was the same thing. There

9 was -- there were local communes within the municipality.

10 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you. Thank you very much. But I now

11 understand it was because the word "local community" was there, and not

12 the word commune, which I had an understanding of. Thanks very much.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that in the Defence case, we

14 will use expert testimony to clarify this concept and the real meaning of

15 the local commune.

16 Q. Sir, the room occupied by Dzevad Celic was on the ground floor,

17 wasn't it?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you know that the work obligation was organised and managed by

20 the Secretariat for Defence of the Samac municipality?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Let me get this clear: You don't know or the Defence Secretariat

23 didn't manage it?

24 A. I don't know, and it wasn't managed by them.

25 Q. We have to clarify this further. If you don't know, then how do

Page 7018

1 you know it wasn't managed by the Secretariat of Defence?

2 A. There is something wrong with my earphones.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Would the usher please assist the witness.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's all right now.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think I caused this problem.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Please proceed.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Sir, could you please explain, do you know that the Secretariat

9 for National Defence did not manage the work obligation or you don't know

10 about it?

11 A. The work obligation was managed from upstairs, from the second

12 floor. There was no military person anywhere in the vicinity of the

13 quarters where the work obligation was carried out. There were no

14 officers or Secretariat for National Defence during the war.

15 Q. And you used to be in the JNA earlier.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Before you were demobilised, did you ever visit the Secretariat

18 for National Defence of the Samac municipality?

19 A. It was across the street from the SUP.

20 Q. Was everyone wearing uniforms there?

21 A. The majority did, or perhaps half and half.

22 Q. So the personnel of the Secretariat for National Defence did not

23 necessarily wear uniforms. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you. You just said that the premises of the Secretariat for

Page 7019

1 National Defence were across the road from the SUP building?

2 A. Before the war.

3 Q. And is it necessarily the case that all the offices of a certain

4 secretariat are located in one place?

5 A. It isn't.

6 Q. Have you ever heard of Milos Bogdanovic?

7 A. I don't know this name. Perhaps if I saw a picture of him.

8 Q. I'll repeat for the benefit of the interpreters and reporters.

9 The name was Milos Bogdanovic.

10 THE INTERPRETER: We did not get the witness's answer.

11 A. He's not from Samac. I can't remember.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Across the road from the SUP, was there a building belonging to

14 the Territorial Defence as you said yesterday in your testimony?

15 A. Before the war, yes.

16 Q. Shall we agree that the premises of the Territorial Defence did

17 not include the Secretariat for National Defence?

18 A. I reported there when I had to go to military duty, but I didn't

19 go there on other occasions. I didn't need to.

20 Q. Do you know perhaps that this secretariat was located in the

21 vicinity of the old hotel?

22 A. I don't know which location you mean.

23 Q. How about the communications centre, if you know that building?

24 A. I only heard about it. I never entered it. It was in the old

25 bank, if that's what you mean.

Page 7020

1 Q. That's right.

2 A. But I never went in there.

3 Q. But still, you claim that the organisation of the work duty was

4 handled on the upper floor above Dzevad Celic's office?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Have you ever heard of Bozo Ninkovic?

7 A. Yes, I have.

8 Q. Did you know him?

9 A. I didn't really know him, but I know the face. I used to see him

10 when I went to the defence building. I don't know if I could recognise

11 him now.

12 Q. Do you know that he was the secretary of the Secretariat for

13 National Defence of the Samac municipality?

14 A. No.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the usher, I

16 would like to show this witness Document D22/F ter.

17 Q. Sir, will you be so kind as to read --

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we put it on the ELMO, please?

19 Q. This, as you will agree, is a form of a decision. Can you read

20 the title of this enactment and paragraph 1, this decision, and what it

21 says below. But please read slowly for the benefit of the interpreters.

22 A. "Decision on assignment to work duty. Item 1: Military conscript

23 or person subject to work duty, Ibrahim Zurapovic from Samac is hereby

24 assigned to work at the DD socially-owned enterprised master from Samac as

25 a metalsmith, as a locksmith."

Page 7021

1 Q. Did you know this person before the war?

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you asked the witness to read slowly fine, but

3 before the interpretation was completed you asked the question. Please do

4 pause.

5 MR. WEINER: Can we have the cite of that again, please.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner?

7 MR. WEINER: I just want to confirm the cite, please.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] D22F/2 ter. This is a document

9 introduced by my colleague Mr. Zecevic.

10 MR. WEINER: Okay. Thank you.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. I have asked my question, but I would like your answer on record.

13 Did you know this person, Ibrahim Zurapovic?

14 A. If you mean Bice [phoen], he worked in Mebos before the war. Yes,

15 I know him.

16 Q. Is he a Muslim?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Will you please read in the bottom next to the signature on the

19 left-hand side, it says: "Chief or head," and then there is a name and

20 surname. Could you read that?

21 A. [redacted]. That's what it says below the word "head".

22 Q. And could you read what it says on the stamp next to that name and

23 surname?

24 A. It's unclear. It's illegible.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

Page 7022

1 MR. WEINER: Our case manager just indicated that he believes this

2 document is under seal.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we confirm with the Registry assistant, please.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. All the documents running to

5 D22I/2 are under seal.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, in that case, it should be redacted from the

7 public record.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Can you please read out the first sentence above the signature.

10 Read it aloud, please, but slowly.

11 A. "I agree with the assignment to work duty, Ministry of Defence,

12 section of Samac."

13 Q. I have no further questions concerning this document. Thank you.

14 Do you know that the work obligation is something that is governed

15 by the law or national defence?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Do you know that it is in the immediate purview of the Defence

18 Ministry of the Republika Srpska?

19 A. No.

20 Q. I now have a couple of questions relating to the premises on the

21 first floor from where, as you said, orders were coming. And based on

22 that, you made your conclusions as to who organised the work obligation.

23 You did go to the first floor, didn't you?

24 MR. WEINER: The last portion of that question he is adding an

25 argumentative statement.

Page 7023

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner, what is the basis of your

2 objection?

3 MR. WEINER: I'm objecting to that argumentative statement that

4 he said. I have no problem with him saying, I was going to -- I'm going

5 to ask you some more questions on the first floor, concerning the first

6 floor. And based on that you made your conclusions as to who organised

7 the work obligation. That's taking his testimony out of context.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think I only quoted from the

10 witness's testimony. He said that all the orders regarding work

11 obligation came from the upper floor. I don't see that this is

12 prolemicising. I don't agree with that, but if you want me, I'll rephrase

13 it. The witness himself put it that way ten minutes ago.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If I may add --

16 MR. WEINER: Just ask him to rephrase it. That's not how my view

17 of how the evidence has come out over the past few days.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic, perhaps you can rephrase your question

19 and let's move on.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will do that, Your Honour, but with

21 your leave may I add that the OTP often requires the Defence to indicate

22 the thrust of their cross-examination. And I think I have done precisely

23 that by quoting the witness's testimony.

24 Q. Is it true that on the first floor of the retirement home, there

25 was an office of the red cross?

Page 7024

1 A. No.

2 Q. Is it the case that there was a flag of the Red Cross flying on

3 top of that building of the retirement home?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Do you know Sveto Vasovic?

6 A. I do.

7 Q. Are you aware that he worked in the local Red Cross office?

8 A. I saw him about ten times with the request that he put me on the

9 list for exchange, if that's what you call the Red Cross then so be it.

10 Q. Do you know that registration for exchange was conducted in the

11 local Red Cross office with Sveto Vasovic?

12 A. I don't know about the Red Cross office. I know Sveto though.

13 Q. So you are sure that the Red Cross was not housed on the first

14 floor of that building?

15 A. Yes, I am.

16 Q. Did you know Velo Maslic?

17 A. Maslic, I do know, but the name, first name, Velo means nothing.

18 Q. What about Rado Muhinovic [phoen]?

19 A. I know everybody in Samac, but I can't remember now.

20 Q. I will not insist.

21 Do you remember Javanovic Janka?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Are you aware that on the first floor, that also local commune

24 premises were on the first floor?

25 A. No.

Page 7025












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 7026

1 Q. You don't know, or the premises were not there?

2 A. The premises were not there.

3 Q. And what was in the offices of the local commune, the one before

4 the war?

5 A. There was the office of Miroslav Tadic, and to the right Sveto

6 Vasovic, and I would always meet. And when I went up, I would meet Cipo

7 [phoen] and Pero [phoen] Ciko Tesic [phoen] and Pero Torovac [phoen].

8 These were some older people, and I don't know what was the function of

9 the local commune.

10 Q. When you go up the floor, how many offices were there?

11 A. I would enter into three offices.

12 Q. That was not my question. I asked, do you remember how many

13 offices there were on the first floor?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Were there more than three offices?

16 A. It must have been more than three, because it's a big floor.

17 Q. When you go up the staircase, you enter the hall. You said that

18 straight at the end of the hall, there was Miroslav Tadic's office?

19 A. No. Straight from the staircase, straight the door.

20 Q. And next to that office?

21 A. Sveto, and to the left there would be a glass panel. Pero and the

22 other persons I have mentioned before.

23 Q. Do you know a person going by the name of Zeljko Volasevic?

24 A. Yes, I do.

25 Q. Did you know that he was the secretary of the local commune prior

Page 7027

1 to the war?

2 A. I knew that he was doing something, that he was working up there,

3 but I didn't know that he was the secretary.

4 Q. Did he have upstairs his office, or was he upstairs?

5 A. I didn't go -- enter the local commune premises. I don't know

6 whether he had an office there.

7 Q. But you said that you saw him working up there.

8 A. I knew that he was doing something up there.

9 Q. Do you know that in Volasevic, Zeljko's office, citizens would

10 come who would sign up for firewood to be received via the local commune?

11 A. No. May I say, Sveto Tesic, Pero Tomorac [phoen], and even who

12 trained and taught driving for the driver's license, they came in

13 September to my home and asked -- they said, "We've come to help you to

14 see how much fuel you need, how many there are at home, and how much coal

15 you will need." I answered that only I and my wife were at home. And he

16 took, "How many tons will you be needing? And just sign that we visited

17 you." I signed that, but he never returned, and there was no coal. That

18 was all.

19 Q. Are you aware that the local commune issued also receipts for

20 issuing firewood and fuel to the families of dead soldiers and to the

21 poorest families in Samac?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Are you aware that on the first floor of the retirement home, the

24 civil protection staff headquarters were located?

25 A. No.

Page 7028

1 Q. Were you aware that Miroslav Tadic was the chief of the civil

2 defence, chief of staff of civil protection?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did you know that as far burials and organisation of burials were

5 performed for the entire municipality of Samac by the civil protection

6 staff?

7 A. Via Celic, the messenger, I heard that there was a place one could

8 get a coffin and to whom you must turn in order to get a truck. Those

9 were -- that was the information that I received. I didn't know --

10 Q. Where did you go and ask for the truck of your father-in-law?

11 A. I went to Miroslav Tadic's.

12 Q. To his office on the first floor in the retirement home?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Earlier, you said that when you reported for duty assignment in

15 front of the -- you reported in front of the retirement home at 6.00 a.m.

16 in the morning. Is that right?

17 A. Yes. But not always. But I did come at 6.00 a.m. when I had to

18 come there.

19 Q. After that, a vehicle would come up -- would come, and you would

20 go for your work assignment?

21 A. Yes, I would go on forced labour.

22 Q. You said that you would wait there while other groups were taken

23 for their labour assignments?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In front of this Court, you stated that you were seeing Tadic two

Page 7029

1 to three times a day? I apologise. I believe you stated that you were

2 seeing him two or three times a week in connection with your work

3 assignment.

4 A. Yes, when I was there.

5 Q. You didn't see him every day when you were receiving your work

6 assignments?

7 A. No. Well, maybe he was upstairs; maybe he was not. I would only

8 see him when he was passing by.

9 Q. Did you see him at 6.00 in the morning, to be passing by there?

10 A. No.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to submit

12 and tender another document for the identification. I have only the BHS

13 version, and I must explain to the Trial Chamber that I found this

14 document when we were -- in connection with the exchange of documents

15 of -- reciprocal disclosure. And I would like to say just a few words in

16 connection with this document and discuss it with the witness. I would

17 like to say that this witness, in his statement from 1998, and the

18 statements which were submitted by the Prosecution up until his statement

19 in front of this Chamber, he never stated before that that Miroslav Tadic

20 was the organiser of work assignment. And therefore, I had no reason for

21 considering this document, but I believe this document is -- it has its

22 ERN number, and I have shown this document to the Prosecution.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: And you say that you haven't got the English

24 translation?

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] No, no, I only submitted it today for

Page 7030

1 translation. I discovered it only yesterday. This document is open also

2 to the Prosecution, and I submitted to the translation service this

3 document.

4 If it could be placed on the ELMO, please.

5 Q. I would ask you to -- only to read that which has been underlined

6 in yellow?

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Before you do that, I just want to confirm with the

8 Prosecution whether they are aware of this document.

9 MR. WEINER: Yes, at the break he showed me the document. I have

10 no objection to him using the document. Just his statement that there was

11 no prior indication of Tadic being in a management position or -- I would

12 suggest is not correct, that we keep on talking about three statements.

13 There was never a statement taken from this witness. There is a 1998

14 interview where he wrote a summary which this witness has never looked at,

15 and there are two other summaries, Prosecution summaries, from this

16 witness. In two and three, there's extensive information concerning

17 Mr. Tadic's role. And I would submit that there also is a lot of

18 information concerning the role in the initial statement in 1998. Other

19 than that, I have no objection. I just want to clarify our view for the

20 record.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

22 Can we have a number for identification only, because we haven't

23 got the English translation.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I state something.

25 THE REGISTRAR: This is D33/3 ter ID.

Page 7031

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Witness, you can go ahead.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, may I state something

3 not in connection with this document.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you can go ahead.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not know this

6 cross-examination. He is emphasising one, two, or three statements. I

7 have issued only -- made one statement. If he wants us to talk, we can go

8 out and discuss it among ourselves. I made an official statement here

9 submitted by the gentlemen, and that's all I would have to say.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Witness. You don't have to worry about that.

11 The Prosecution is following the proceedings, and they will always also

12 put on record what, in their view, is the position, and then the Trial

13 Chamber will be able to decide at the end of the proceedings. But any

14 time you feel like saying what you think should be explained, you should

15 say so, and it's all right to have it on record. So do not worry about

16 the status of any statement. Just go ahead and answer the questions put

17 to you.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic. You can go ahead.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. I would ask you only to read that what has been highlighted in

22 yellow. Please read it slowly because nobody has a translation in the

23 courtroom.

24 A. So I will read that what the Serbian republic, SAO. "The Serbian

25 autonomous region of Sombalian Mijeca [phoen], Municipality of Bosanski

Page 7032

1 Samac, secretariat of economic affairs, number 2533/92." Date: 31 or

2 21st of the 9th month, 1992. Department -- I can't see the rest. Is it

3 U? NN? "Ministry of National Defence, Bosanski Samac. Subject: Work

4 assignment."

5 Q. Please look down at the end of the page, that what has been

6 highlighted.

7 A. "Secretary of the Secretariat for Economic Affairs".

8 Q. I will not make suggestions. Could it be that -- look at the

9 document. Could it be that it's written "the Department of the Ministry

10 of National Defence"?

11 A. Yes. That's what -- it's possible that it's the Ministry --

12 Q. Do you know --

13 A. I don't know this document.

14 Q. No, that's not what I wanted to ask you. There's another question

15 I would like to ask you. Do you know that various institutions,

16 organisation, would turn to the Ministry of National Defence with a

17 request for the division and the distribution, allocation, of work

18 assignments?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Do you know that the work assignments were allotted on the first

21 floor of the retirement home?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, I would like to ask you a few questions concerning the people

24 you were mentioning yesterday in your statement and who were then taking

25 you to your work assignment.

Page 7033

1 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Mr. Usher, you can use this document. I

2 will not take it any more -- use it [sic].

3 Q. [Interpretation] Yesterday, you've stated that a person going by

4 the name and nickname of Mile Pancir, that he took you to the trenches?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. During the transport and digging of trenches, did he mention that

7 he received the orders from Miroslav Tadic?

8 A. Nobody dared asked him anything, but no.

9 Q. You mentioned Stojan Blagojevic. You mentioned that he was always

10 in front of the retirement home?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did he answer that he -- did he say that he received the orders

13 from Miroslav Tadic?

14 A. Nobody dared ask anything him either.

15 Q. The person who you described as Tovirac from Srpska Tisina in

16 picking the harvest, did he mention that he received orders from Tadic?

17 A. He also -- he didn't come. He had this assignment of supplying

18 the military kitchens, and I didn't ask him.

19 Q. You mentioned yesterday that the drivers, truck drivers, who were

20 taking you, that they received orders from Tadic?

21 A. Yes. Mile Pancir never drove a truck, neither Stojan Blagojevic.

22 Q. I will question Skeja.

23 A. Yes, Skeja was a truck driver. He was driving for a company of

24 Buducnost, but he didn't come in front of the retirement home.

25 Q. Did Skeja ever say that he received orders from Tadic?

Page 7034

1 A. Skeja, no. Skeja, no.

2 Q. Can I hear the name now of that truck driver who said that he

3 received orders from Tadic?

4 A. The names, there was a driver who I cannot say either the first

5 name or surname. But prior to -- before the war, he drove that blue --

6 blue truck, TAM truck. He was a blond person. And there was another one

7 when we were transporting bricks, and they always had to go up and down in

8 order to get their papers from Tadic.

9 Q. Slowly, because this is a fact that has to be clarified. If you

10 don't know the name of this person, please give me a close description.

11 We have to determine the truth. Tell me who the person is, where he took

12 you for your assignment. You don't have to say the name and surname.

13 A. He was of a shorter build, blond. He worked in the past in

14 Ribarska. That was a long time a fish farm. He drove a TAM truck, a

15 green TAM truck. He also would take people for their assignments.

16 Q. Did he have a nickname?

17 A. I don't remember, but I know him well. I cannot remember. He is

18 not a man from Samac but from a village.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: I need clarification from the witness. When he says

20 he can't mention the names, and you, Counsel, when putting the question to

21 him, also you did say you don't have to name the surname. I want

22 information. I want clarification from the witness. Is it because you

23 cannot remember these drivers' names, or is it because you feel they ought

24 to be protected and cannot have their names mentioned?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I'm not protecting, but I just

Page 7035

1 don't know the names. But Mile Pancir was never a driver. The others,

2 these were our supervisors. As far as the drivers are concerned, I cannot

3 remember the names. I know the people, but I cannot remember their names.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

5 You can proceed, counsel.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. I wish to hear as much data.

8 A. If I remember the name, I will tell it to you.

9 Q. You said the man was from a village.

10 A. Yes, he was from a Serbian village, from Torsinovac [phoen], I

11 believe.

12 And that is, Serbs lived there

13 Q. You described that when taking the firewood up to two women who

14 lived above the Mebos shop, you stated yesterday - it's page 49 - and the

15 fourth line of the transcript, that you knew this -- these women

16 personally?

17 A. Yes, I did, but I cannot remember their names.

18 Q. Can you describe exactly the building where they lived? Was it

19 the building where the Mebos shop was located? To what floor? This was

20 in the town where you were born.

21 A. Yes. The second floor, straight one door, and one door was to the

22 left. And that is where the two women. They were office workers in

23 Agropromet.

24 Q. Do you know that the husband of one of these women died at war, in

25 fighting?

Page 7036

1 A. No.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic, how much more time do you need?

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Excuse me. My colleague's asked me to

4 complete five minutes earlier. But I believe I'll be needing another

5 hour, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: That's why I am asking, because the Trial Chamber

7 was informed that there are matters to be raised before we rise today. So

8 we can adjourn the cross-examination to tomorrow at 14.15.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Approximately one hour,

10 Your Honour.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. We shall adjourn the cross-examination

12 to tomorrow at 14.15 hours. And can the witness be led out of the

13 courtroom while we raise matters that need to be discussed by the Trial

14 Chamber and the parties.

15 [The witness stands down]

16 JUDGE MUMBA: The first item is on the request yesterday by

17 the -- on behalf of the accused persons on the religious holiday of

18 Orthodox Easter. The Trial Chamber communicated to the parties through

19 the registry assistant that it is not possible to grant both days simply

20 because of the delays that the -- these proceedings have faced for

21 problems beyond the control of the Trial Chamber. The Trial Chamber is

22 very sympathetic to the religious needs of the accused persons, but we

23 felt that we could compromise and perhaps give them one day of the two

24 days, either the Friday or a Monday. And we have been informed that they

25 are agreeable to have a Friday as a non-working day. And the Friday when

Page 7037

1 the Trial Chamber will not sit is the 3rd of May.

2 After Thursday, the proceedings will continue on the 1st of May,

3 which is a Wednesday, and on the 2nd of May, which is a Thursday. And

4 then the Friday, the 3rd May, the Trial Chamber will not sit. The

5 proceedings will continue on the 6th of May onwards as previously

6 scheduled.

7 Any other matters?

8 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honours. Thank you very much for this

9 information on behalf of all defendants and my colleagues. In fact, this

10 afternoon, after the second break, the Defence were provided with the

11 witness, well, statement of Mr. Sabrija Dagovic. This is a Mrs. Sabrija

12 Dagovic. And this statement was made and done in 1995, actually on the

13 9th of May in 1995, which means almost seven years ago. In spite of all

14 our efforts as a Defence to follow the proceedings and to establish a

15 certain principle of fairness in this trial, the Prosecution, I must say,

16 acted in a manner of gross and blatant violation of this trial and the

17 principles of fairness of trial.

18 We asked on many occasions that our friends from Prosecution

19 discover all relevant materials to the Defence, to disclose. In spite of

20 all our efforts, and in spite of the instructions of this Honourable Trial

21 Chambers to the Prosecution, and certain, I would say, warnings, here we

22 are in the situation today that we were provided with this particular

23 statement from 1995.


25 MR. PANTELIC: I'm wondering, where is the end of this intolerable

Page 7038

1 practice and how the impact and the effect on this trial proceeding would

2 be? I must say that we are going into the area where we shall raise the

3 issue regarding the possible miscarriage of justice due to these kinds of

4 actions from our colleagues of the Prosecution. So I kindly ask this

5 Trial Chamber to take necessary measures, including sanctions which are

6 provided in our Rules of Procedure, in order to stop this practice, and

7 also in order to take this note with regard to the possible impact of the

8 fairness of these trial proceedings.

9 Thank you very much for your attention, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Before you sit down, you said it's Mrs. Sabrija

11 Dagovic because I see on the list of witnesses provided by the

12 Prosecution, there is a Safet Dagovic. Is that the spouse? Do you know

13 whether it is the spouse?

14 MR. WEINER: This is the --

15 JUDGE MUMBA: You have no idea. Mr. Weiner, I'll call upon you.

16 You have no idea.

17 MR. PANTELIC: This is the father of two witnesses.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Which one and which one?

19 MR. PANTELIC: Safet and Esad Dagovic. One of these two witnesses

20 was here before this Trial Chamber, and the other will come.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. Yes. That statement which has been given to

22 you today by the Prosecution is the statement of the father of Safet

23 Dagovic, who is listed as a witness yet to come, and Esad Dagovic who has

24 already given evidence?


Page 7039

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Do you know, Mr. Pantelic, whether the maker of that

2 statement is also coming as a witness? Do you know? Is he not on the

3 list?

4 MR. PANTELIC: I believe that this person will not come --

5 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no. He is on the list of witnesses provided

6 to you by the Prosecution?

7 MR. PANTELIC: No, he is not on the list. Because this statement

8 was discovered to the Defence in accordance with Rule 68.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: And it was given to the Defence today, as you say?

10 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, today.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

12 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, this witness has never been on our

13 witness list. This witness is not going to be on our witness list. One

14 of this witness's sons has already testified, and the other one is

15 scheduled to testify. We provided this to counsel as a potentially

16 Rule 68 document. We continue to look through and look through our

17 records. We continue to look through documents as they come along. If we

18 see anything which is discoverable under Rule 68, we immediately provide

19 it to Defence counsel.

20 This is not something -- this is not something that has been a

21 blatant violation, as counsel indicated. Things happen. In fact, today,

22 the last document which was introduced was just shown to us moments ago.

23 There isn't even a translation of it. The last document that was shown to

24 that witness --

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner. I'm not asking you to discuss the

Page 7040

1 other document because you didn't discuss it then when it arose. I did

2 ask you about it. The point is, that document has been in the Office of

3 the Prosecutor since 1995 when it was recorded.

4 MR. WEINER: Which is long before any of the three of our counsel

5 have been here. We've continued to look through the records. If we find

6 anything, we immediately turn it over to Defence counsel, which is our

7 obligation. This is not a witness that is going to testify.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: That's not the point. We understand that's your

9 obligation. But why wasn't it discovered long before today? Because it

10 has been with the Prosecutor's office since 1995. It's not a question of

11 you deciding whether or not he is going to be a witness.

12 MR. WEINER: There are approximately 2 and a half -- or over 2 and

13 a half million documents in the possession of the Office of the

14 Prosecutor. As we continue to look through, it is not always as easy

15 because of names are spelled incorrectly. Some names are in Cyrillic.

16 Some names have the accents. So when you do name checks, we don't always

17 find the documents.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: That document is -- in what language is it,

19 Mr. Pantelic?

20 MR. PANTELIC: In the English language, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: So it's not in Cyrillic.

22 MR. WEINER: Ms. Reidy would like to comment on it. She is the

23 one who found the document.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.

25 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, may I explain. The statement to which

Page 7041












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 7042

1 Mr. Pantelic has spoken is the statement of Sabrija Dagovic who, we

2 understand, is indeed the father of Esad and Safet. In the statement of

3 Sabrija Dagovic, there is no mention of his sons' names or anything like

4 that. So when this was looked through, there was no way we would know

5 that was actually the father or, in fact, a relation to these other

6 people. I think you are aware there are many --

7 JUDGE MUMBA: That's not the point.

8 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, I'm just explaining. That's why I think

9 in the initial thing, it was never connected. Over the break, we have

10 gone through every single statement of every person we have spoken to in

11 relation to this case. And in that review, this document was reread

12 again, and there is one sentence in it which is potentially Rule 68. On

13 discovering that and knowing that Mr. Safet Dagovic is the next witness

14 up, we immediately disclose it as potentially Rule 68. The Defence will

15 have an opportunity to put any questions they think that arise from the

16 statement to Mr. Dagovic. And I think that Mr. Pantelic, instead of

17 making these repeated statements about blatant violations, should be very

18 concrete in exactly the prejudice that is shown. It is simply for that

19 reason --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Could you please slow down, Ms. Reidy.

21 MS. REIDY: -- because it's not blatantly obvious from it it is a

22 Rule 68 document because the names of the witnesses and that do not appear

23 on the face of the record.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Is it your position that it's not discussing any of

25 the defendants' involvement?

Page 7043

1 MS. REIDY: No. What it does is it discusses this -- a witness of

2 the Prosecution, his son.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: My question is clear: Is that document discussing

4 any of the defendants' involvement in the allegations in the indictment?

5 MS. REIDY: No, not in any exculpatory manner, but I don't

6 think -- I think the names may be mentioned, but I don't think -- there is

7 certainly nothing -- in fact, that's why he wasn't called as a witness.

8 He basically has nothing to say about the defendants; he only has

9 something to say about his sons. And I think it's in that context that

10 once we put two and two together, we thought it could potentially be a

11 Rule 68 relating to our witnesses, not about any exculpatory acts on

12 behalf of any of the defendants in this case.

13 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours --

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you hold on, Mr. Pantelic.

15 MR. PANTELIC: Because --

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you hold on.

17 JUDGE LINDHOLM: I have a question to the Prosecution. What is

18 the relevance of that document for this trial? Why should it be put

19 forward, communicated to the Defence, and so on?

20 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, the reason that we communicated it to the

21 Defence is that the statement giver is the father of two witnesses, and

22 indeed, the next witness. And the Defence may wish to read it and then to

23 use it as a basis for their cross-examination of the next witness. To

24 that extent, it's -- in a broad reading of exculpatory information, it

25 could be useful to the Defence, in fact, under the rules of reciprocal

Page 7044

1 discovery here, which don't apply to Mr. Pantelic, but as potentially

2 under Rule 68. So it could be useful in the cross-examination of the next

3 witness, but not pointing to any direct exculpatory behaviour or

4 mitigating factors on the part of the Defence -- any of the defendants.

5 And it was in that context that it was communicated to the Defence.

6 JUDGE LINDHOLM: If I may continue, you said that that document

7 may be useful for the Defence. Listening to Defence Counsel Pantelic, it

8 sounds rather that he views it as a possible miscarriage of justice. So

9 that is some kind of -- you are not in harmony with each other.

10 MS. REIDY: Absolutely, Your Honour. And I think -- the other

11 position of the Prosecution would be that it is for Mr. Pantelic, if he is

12 raising a very serious allegation and he is asking the Trial Chamber to

13 take quite serious measures that he has alluded to, that we have been in

14 blatant violation, that it should be for him to specify very clearly and

15 very concretely why he thinks this is such a miscarriage of justice.

16 Because I think that the general tone and manner of which Mr. Pantelic has

17 put his complaint on the record is not of particular assistance in being

18 able to make a factual determination. And we are happy to address this in

19 writing or to reply to Mr. Pantelic if he can be very specific and justify

20 his complaint to the Tribunal -- to the Chamber.

21 We are in no doubt that -- we apologise that this has been

22 disclosed now. We wanted to disclose it before Safet Dagovic came up. We

23 have no problem with disclosing it and doing so as a matter of caution.

24 But we would reject any of these allegations that Mr. Pantelic has made

25 about our practice, et cetera, which is not the first time in these

Page 7045

1 proceedings that he has attempted to put such, I would, say unfounded

2 allegations on to the record. But perhaps if he was concrete in exactly

3 the nature of the miscarriage of justice that has been performed by the

4 late disclosure of this document, we would be in a better position to

5 respond and assist the Bench and Your Honour.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think the Trial Chamber would like to deal

7 with this matter fully, and the Trial Chamber will adjourn -- you'll be

8 given your opportunity tomorrow to respond, because we don't want to go

9 over the limits for the interpreters and also the accused persons.

10 The Defence will be able to respond fully tomorrow. We'll

11 decide -- before the witness comes in, so that we deal with it. And if

12 the Bench has any questions, the matter will be dealt with then. If there

13 are any other matters that the counsel wish to have on record, let's deal

14 with that tomorrow before the witness is brought in to the courtroom at

15 14.15. We shall adjourn until tomorrow at 14.15.

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.11 p.m., to

17 be reconvened on Wednesday, the 17th day of April,

18 2002, at 2.15 p.m.