Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7996

 1                          Wednesday, 15 May 2002

 2                          [Closed session]

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Page 7997











11 Pages 7997-8005 redacted. Closed session.















Page 8006

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 4            JUDGE MUMBA:  The proceedings will continue in closed session for

 5    the next part of our proceedings regarding Mr. Milan Simic.

 6            The Trial Chamber has looked at the joint requests by the

 7    Prosecution and the Defence of Mr. Milan Simic for a closed session of the

 8    proceedings to follow according to Rule 62 ter (C).  The Trial Chamber is

 9    of the view that there was no basis for the submission made by the

10    Prosecution for a closed session for these proceedings.  Paragraph 5 of

11    the submission was simply stated without more.  So the Trial Chamber is

12    not satisfied that proceedings should be held in closed session.

13            MR. DI FAZIO:  Yes.

14            JUDGE MUMBA:  Maybe the Prosecution can make some further

15    submissions on this.

16            MR. DI FAZIO:  Yes.  If Your Honours please, essentially the --

17    the essence of the application is contained in paragraph 5, and I can

18    understand why the Chamber is troubled by the lack of detail in that

19    particular paragraph.

20            Since or, rather, I should say prior to lunch, I contacted the

21    officer in charge of the case, the investigating officer in this

22    particular case who happens to be in Bosnia currently taking 92 bis

23    statements.  I had a fairly unsatisfactory telephone conversation with

24    him, unsatisfactory because the telephone line was not very good and

25    unsatisfactory also because it was secure and I had to use and he had to

Page 8007

 1    use guarded language.  But essentially I went over the history of this

 2    case with him and his concerns because it was his concerns that originally

 3    caused this application to be made, and they are essentially this:  When

 4    another defendant in this case, Mr. Todorovic, pleaded guilty and the plea

 5    agreement between the Office of the Prosecutor and that defendant became

 6    known, a number of witnesses in this case, witnesses who are to give

 7    evidence in this case, have given evidence in this case, expressed their

 8    considerable displeasure at that plea agreement, the fact of the plea

 9    agreement, and commented that they considered their continuing to provide

10    evidence to the Tribunal in support of this particular Prosecution was a

11    worthless exercise or something that they shouldn't continue to do any

12    longer.

13            It was no insignificant matter.  I'm told that the particular

14    officer and the Prosecutor who was formerly in charge of this case,

15    Ms. Nancy Paterson, in fact had to travel to Bosnia on a ten-day mission

16    to placate witnesses, explain as best they could various reasons why that

17    particular plea agreement had been entered into between the Office of the

18    Prosecutor and essentially get the witnesses back on board, and they were

19    able to do so after providing an explanation.

20            The officer who has been dealing with these witnesses for some

21    years now has expressed to me very serious -- his serious concerns that if

22    this particular plea agreement becomes known, it will have an adverse

23    effect upon the willingness of the witnesses to continue to come here and

24    give evidence in this case.

25            So that essentially is the reason why this particular motion has

Page 8008

 1    been made.

 2            I can -- there are a few other matters that I want to also address

 3    the Chamber on and are related to this.  First of all, I think it's

 4    important to point out and I understand the Chamber knows, but I wish to

 5    emphasise, of course, we're not seeking any sort of permanent suppression

 6    order or permanent non-disclosure of the plea agreement, the fact of the

 7    plea and of course the sentence which under Rule 100, I believe it is, has

 8    to be made public.  It's only a temporary measure and I emphasise that

 9    it's only a temporary measure and the measure is only being sought until

10    the closure of the Prosecution case so that the public nature, the desire

11    to make public plea agreements will eventually be satisfied that the point

12    of the Rule will essentially be satisfied.  It's a question of when in the

13    Prosecution's submission, and no deleterious consequences will flow if

14    it's made known at a later point, namely at the close of the Prosecution

15    case.

16            The Defence support the Prosecution in this particular motion.

17    You can see that it's a joint motion.

18            That's the highest that I can put the matter at at the moment.

19    If, however, the Chamber is not satisfied with that, then I would request

20    that you provide suppression of the details of the publication -- of the

21    plea agreement until such time as I can contact my officer and get his

22    evidence, his account of things into proper form and perhaps provide you

23    with more detail of the consequences for the -- that we fear may come

24    about if the plea agreement is made public at this particular stage.  In

25    other words, I can marshal whatever evidence I can get from the officer in

Page 8009

 1    charge of the case and put it before you in a more orderly fashion if

 2    you're not satisfied with what I've told you today.

 3            JUDGE MUMBA:  All right.  Any submission on the part of Mr. Milan

 4    Simic?  Mr. Zecevic?

 5            MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.  Good afternoon, Your

 6    Honours.  I would like to thank the Trial Chamber for giving us this

 7    opportunity of this hearing because we've been working on this for a long

 8    time.

 9            Actually, the Defence does not have any problem with this hearing

10    being public.  However, in a spirit of cooperation, when we were

11    negotiating this plea agreement, we do understand the reasons why our

12    learned colleagues from the Prosecutor's side are requesting the closed

13    session, and that is why we joined them in our joint motion for the closed

14    session.

15            Thank you, Your Honours.

16            JUDGE MUMBA:  Thank you.

17                          [Trial Chamber confers]

18            JUDGE MUMBA:  The Trial Chamber will adjourn to consider the

19    submissions of the Prosecution for 20 minutes.

20                          --- Break taken at 2.55 p.m.

21                          --- On resuming at 3.17 p.m.

22            JUDGE MUMBA:  The Trial Chamber has considered the submissions

23    made by the Prosecution on their -- on the parties' joint request for

24    these proceedings to be held in closed session, and the Trial Chamber is

25    satisfied that good cause has been shown for the proceedings to be held in

Page 8010

 1    closed session according to Rule 62 ter (C), in particular that in these

 2    proceedings, this is the second time that an accused has entered into a

 3    plea agreement and that the impact upon the rest of the Prosecution

 4    witnesses will be even far greater when -- if the proceedings are held in

 5    open session, most likely the Prosecution may have greater difficulty in

 6    persuading the rest of the witnesses to continue giving evidence in these

 7    proceedings.  So the proceedings will go ahead in closed session.

 8            The Chamber has before it a joint motion for consideration of a

 9    plea agreement between the accused Milan Simic and the Office of the

10    Prosecutor.  The motion was filed jointly by counsel for Mr. Milan Simic

11    and the Prosecution on a confidential basis on 13th May 2002.  According

12    to the plea agreement attached to the joint motion, the accused Milan

13    Simic agrees to plead guilty to counts 4 and 7, which are two counts of

14    torture charged as crimes against humanity of the amended indictment,

15    while the Prosecutor has agreed to move for leave to withdraw the

16    remaining charges against the accused Milan Simic if the guilty plea --

17    the guilty plea to the two counts is accepted by the Trial Chamber.

18            The plea agreement contains provisions reflecting the

19    understanding of the accused Milan Simic as to the nature of count 4 and

20    count 7, including the legal elements of torture as a crime against

21    humanity, and the factual basis agreed upon as a basis for his guilty plea

22    to the two counts.  The plea agreement also recommends a range of

23    sentences based on the understanding that such recommendation is not

24    binding on the Trial Chamber.

25            The Trial Chamber has observed that the plea agreement has also

Page 8011

 1    been filed in the B/C/S language which the accused Milan Simic understands

 2    and is attached to the joint motion.

 3            The Trial Chamber has looked at the provisions of the relevant

 4    Rules, in particular Rule 62 ter, and we'll deal with the proceedings

 5    under Rule 62 bis and would like to address the accused Mr. Milan Simic at

 6    this stage.

 7            Mr. Simic, the Trial Chamber would like to find out from you

 8    whether you understand the details of this plea agreement you entered into

 9    with the Prosecution.

10            THE ACCUSED M. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I did understand them.

11            JUDGE MUMBA:  The Trial Chamber would also like to find out from

12    you whether when entering into this plea agreement you understand that the

13    Trial Chamber is not bound to accept the range of sentences agreed to by

14    yourself and the Prosecutor.

15            THE ACCUSED M. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I do understand that.

16            JUDGE MUMBA:  The Trial Chamber would also like to ask you whether

17    you fully discussed with your counsel the plea agreement, and he advised

18    you of the consequences of pleading guilty to the two charges.  That's

19    count 4 and count 7.

20            THE ACCUSED M. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I have discussed it

21    with my counsel, and he advised me of all possible consequences.

22            JUDGE MUMBA:  The Trial Chamber would like to know whether you

23    were threatened or coerced in any way to make this agreement.

24            THE ACCUSED M. SIMIC: [Interpretation] No, I was not coerced.

25            JUDGE MUMBA:  It was entirely made by you voluntarily?

Page 8012

 1            THE ACCUSED M. SIMIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

 2            JUDGE MUMBA:  The Trial Chamber would like to put the counts to

 3    you so that you can plead as advised and according to your own free will,

 4    and that is count 4 of the charges as detailed in the plea agreement.

 5            How do you plead to count 4 of the amended indictment charging you

 6    with torture?

 7            THE ACCUSED M. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I plead guilty.

 8            JUDGE MUMBA:  The Trial Chamber again asks you to plead to count 7

 9    of the amended indictment charging you with torture.  How do you plead?

10            THE ACCUSED M. SIMIC: [Interpretation] I plead guilty.

11            JUDGE MUMBA:  Very well.  The Trial Chamber records pleas of

12    guilty for both counts, on count 4 and count 7.

13            The Trial Chamber has considered the particulars of the facts in

14    the plea agreement and is satisfied that they do form sufficient factual

15    basis for finding the accused guilty on both counts and makes a finding of

16    guilty and enters the conviction for both count 4 and count 7 against the

17    accused Milan Simic accordingly.

18            The Trial Chamber would like to ask the Prosecutor, because

19    according to the plea agreement, it is indicated that the Prosecution

20    intends to apply for leave to withdraw the remainder of the charges

21    against the accused Milan Simic.

22            MR. DI FAZIO:  Yes.  If Your Honours please, Mr. Milan Simic,

23    having entered pleas of guilty to counts 4 and 7, and the Trial Chamber

24    having accepted those pleas of guilty to those two counts, 4 and 7, the

25    Prosecution seeks the leave of the Trial Chamber to withdraw the remaining

Page 8013

 1    counts laid against Mr. Milan Simic.

 2            JUDGE MUMBA:  Very well.  The Trial Chamber grants leave for the

 3    Prosecution to withdraw the remaining counts against Mr. Milan Simic, and

 4    the Trial Chamber orders that the Prosecutor should file confirmation of

 5    withdrawal in writing by next week Tuesday.

 6                          [Trial Chamber confers]

 7            JUDGE MUMBA:  The Trial Chamber will move to the next stage, about

 8    the possible date for hearing on sentencing and would like to find out

 9    from both parties how they intend to make their submissions on

10    sentencing.  Of course the Trial Chamber would appreciate submitting any

11    evidence, if any has to be called by the parties in the form of

12    statements, to avoid taking too much time.

13            So the Prosecution, can you indicate how much time you think you

14    need?

15            MR. DI FAZIO:  I find that a little difficult at this stage to say

16    with any precision because I haven't prepared any submissions, of course.

17    The Prosecution would seek to provide the Chamber with both a written

18    submission and accompanied by some oral submissions.

19            I have discussed the timing of those submissions with my

20    colleagues, counsel for Mr. Milan Simic, and we agreed that early July

21    would be -- of course if that's suitable to the Chamber, would be an

22    appropriate time to deliver those submissions.

23            As to the time required for the Prosecution to present its

24    submissions -- may I just have a brief moment to confer with may colleague

25    Mr. Weiner, please?

Page 8014

 1            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.

 2                          [Prosecution counsel confer]

 3            MR. DI FAZIO:  Yes.  Than you.  Thank you for that opportunity to

 4    speak to my colleague.

 5            At this stage, the Prosecution is not minded to attempt to call

 6    any evidence on the plea, and --

 7            JUDGE MUMBA:  On the sentencing.

 8            MR. DI FAZIO:  On the sentencing issue, sorry.  And we expect at

 9    this stage to confine ourselves to legal submissions on sentencing law and

10    how it applies to this particular case.  And with the benefit of some

11    written submissions, I would hope that we would be able to complete all of

12    our submissions within about one and a half to two hours.

13            JUDGE MUMBA:  Very well.  The Defence of Mr. Milan Simic?  Mr. --

14    Ms. Baen?

15            MS. BAEN:  Yes, Your Honour.  We too plan on filing written

16    submissions or a brief, and we have discussed it, and we think we have a

17    total of about eight witnesses that we'd like to call, and we're going to

18    try to do the majority of those in the form of an affidavit or

19    stipulations of evidence we're working on with the Prosecution right now

20    so that we can make the hearing as short as possible.  But it's going to

21    depend on whether or not we can get affidavits from these people or

22    whatever we decide is best.

23            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.  Usually if it's -- normally to be evidence

24    regarding character.

25            MS. BAEN:  Yes, it's character and mitigation and also maybe

Page 8015

 1    psychiatrists probably in the form of a report.  I don't know whether that

 2    would be live or not.  Possibly the doctor who's been treating Mr. Simic

 3    here, but nothing out of the ordinary.  Just mitigation, character

 4    witnesses, and doctors.  That's all.

 5            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.  Because the Trial Chamber is interested in

 6    economising on time that the proceedings will take.

 7            Very well.  The Trial Chamber will issue a Scheduling Order on the

 8    matters for further hearing in these proceedings.  This is the end -- yes,

 9    Ms. Baen.

10            MS. BAEN:  This may be my last chance to address the Chamber for a

11    while, so it is somewhat difficult because I live in the United States and

12    Mr. Zecevic lives in Serbia, and so we sort of propose a schedule on all

13    the work that we would have to do to get our brief done and get our

14    witnesses together, and we came up with a date of the -- I think as

15    Mr. Di Fazio said, of the end of June we would prefer to file our brief

16    then if it's appropriate with the Trial Chamber and then possibly argue

17    sentencing the week after that.  We've discussed this somewhat at length,

18    and consideration also that the Prosecutors will continue in the trial

19    daily.  We felt this might be most appropriate for both parties, but of

20    course it's up to the Trial Chamber.

21            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.  But I just want it to be clear.  You would

22    prefer the hearing to be in the first week of July then.

23            MS. BAEN:  We would prefer the first week of July, and we would

24    prefer to file our briefs the end of June and then argue the next week and

25    then probably take not more than one day of the Court's time for the

Page 8016

 1    sentencing hearing.

 2            JUDGE MUMBA:  Very well.

 3            MR. DI FAZIO:  Thank you.  If Your Honours please.

 4            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.

 5            MR. DI FAZIO:  Can I just support what Ms. Bane says and can I

 6    emphasise, if I may, the end of June, for the very end of June, if I can

 7    emphasise that, for the written submission.  And again, I have no problem

 8    with early July.  The reason I say that is it's going to be the beginning

 9    of June and the middle of June is going to be, I think, a particularly

10    busy time for the Prosecution for various reasons, and we would like to be

11    able to -- we'll need some time to concentrate on this and research the

12    matter and get our submissions into good and useful form for you.

13            So may I urge upon you the provision of the written submission at

14    the very end of June if that's suitable, of course, to the Chamber.

15            JUDGE MUMBA:  Very well -- yes.  Very well.  The Trial Chamber

16    will consider that when making the Scheduling Order.

17            This is the end of the matter on the plea, and the Trial Chamber

18    considers that we can proceed with the rest of the proceedings right away,

19    except that the next witness will be in open session?

20            MR. WEINER:  Yes.  Yes, Your Honour.

21            JUDGE MUMBA:  So we can go ahead and -- Ms. Baen, you wanted to

22    say something?

23            MS. BAEN:  Yes, Your Honour.  At this time is the Trial Chamber

24    going to -- are you going to wait to sever us until you get the written

25    submissions?

Page 8017

 1            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes, confirmation by the -- the withdrawal in

 2    writing by the Prosecution.

 3            MS. BAEN:  Thank you.

 4            JUDGE MUMBA:  And then the Trial Chamber will go ahead and

 5    probably separate the trials for the better continuation of the

 6    proceedings and also to avoid unfairness on the rest of the accused

 7    persons proceeding on the indictment that the Prosecutor will choose to

 8    continue with.

 9            Can we have the blinds opened, please?

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Page 8018

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 6                          [Open session]

 7                          [The witness entered court]

 8            JUDGE MUMBA:  The Trial Chamber is of the view that we shall take

 9    the normal time, go on with the proceedings for one and a half hours

10    before the next break.

11            MR. WEINER:  Your Honour, I'm confused.  Do you mean we're going

12    to take a break in five minutes --

13            JUDGE MUMBA:  No.  No.  No.

14            MR. WEINER:  -- for the normal period or we'll take an hour and a

15    half?

16            JUDGE MUMBA:  No, one and a half hours because we took a break

17    just now.

18            MR. WEINER:  All right.

19            JUDGE MUMBA:  Will the witness make the solemn declaration.

20            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

21    the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

22            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.  Please sit down.

23                          WITNESS:  HAJRIJA DRLJACIC

24                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

25            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.  The Prosecution can go ahead.

Page 8019

 1                          Examined by Mr. Weiner:

 2       Q.   Good afternoon.

 3       A.   Good afternoon.

 4       Q.   Could you tell the could the your name, please?

 5       A.   My name is Hajrija Drljacic.

 6       Q.   When were you born?

 7       A.   I was born on the 21st of April, 1932.

 8       A.   So you're 70 years old now?

 9       A.   That's correct.

10       Q.   Are you married?

11       A.   Divorced.

12       Q.   Do you have any children?

13       A.   I have one daughter.

14       Q.   Any grandchildren?

15       A.   Three.  And one great grandchild.

16       Q.   Where were you born?

17       A.   I was born in Brcko.

18       Q.   And where did you live most of your life?

19       A.   I was just born in Brcko.  I lived my whole life in Bosanski

20    Samac, except for the wartime.

21       Q.   Where did your parents live their lives?

22       A.   My father was born in Bosanski Samac and spent his whole life

23    there, as did my mother.

24       Q.   And when did you father's family first come to Bosanski Samac?

25       A.   My great grandfathers settled there in the 1880s.  They were the

Page 8020

 1    first settlers, among the first settlers in Bosanski Samac.

 2       Q.   Do you have any brothers or sister?

 3       A.   We were eight children, three sisters and five brothers.  One

 4    sister and one brother died, and we remain six.

 5       Q.   And of those six, how many lived in Bosanski Samac?

 6       A.   All except for one brother who lived in brother [As interpreted],

 7    and one sister lived in Serbia.  The rest of us lived in Bosanski Samac.

 8       Q.   Now your brother who died prior to the war, where did his wife and

 9    children live?

10       A.   Safet's wife and children lived in Bosanski Samac since they were

11    born.  In fact, his wife was originally from Orasje, and they lived -- she

12    lived with the children in Samac.

13       Q.   Now, your sister who passed away, when did she -- when did she

14    die?

15       A.   I found her deceased on the 12th of December, 1992.

16       Q.   What did she die from?

17       A.   She died of hunger, cold, and fear.

18       Q.   And where was she living when she passed away?

19       A.   [In English] Excuse me [Interpretation] From the day she was born

20    until the day she died, she lived in Bosanski Samac, and she was ill for a

21    while before she died.

22       Q.   Now, you indicated -- you indicated you lived in Bosanski Samac

23    your whole life.  Where did you -- where did you live?

24       A.   I lived in Bosanski Samac with the exception of seven years, when

25    I lived in Osijek, where I worked.

Page 8021

 1       Q.   Let me just step back for one second.  All these brothers and

 2    sisters who lived in Samac, are they still living there now?

 3       A.   Of my brothers and sisters, nobody is left in Samac.

 4       Q.   Why aren't they still in Samac?

 5       A.   One brother lived in Zagreb even before the war for about ten

 6    years.  One brother and one sister died, and the rest of us had to leave

 7    Samac.  We were forced to leave Samac because of the events there.

 8       Q.   Now, you indicated you lived in Samac.  Where did you live in that

 9    town?

10       A.   I lived in Pero Bozic Street, number 50.

11       Q.   Was that an apartment, house, or was that a -- was that a separate

12    home?

13       A.   It was an apartment building.  I lived in one apartment in it.

14       Q.   And did you work in Bosanski Samac?

15       A.   Yes, I did.  Except for these seven years, I had spent all my

16    remaining work-life in Bosanski Samac.

17       Q.   And where did you work?

18       A.   The last 20 years, I worked for Tekstilac.  Afterwards, we were

19    integrated with Mladost, and then the company changed its name into Sit,

20    the Samac textile industry.

21       Q.   And what did you do for Tekstilac and Mladost?

22       A.   I was an accountant.

23       Q.   In April of 1992, were you still working or had you retired?

24       A.   I retired at the end of 1998.  Actually, I apologise.  I was

25    retired at the end of 1987, early 1988.

Page 8022

 1       Q.   Now, what religion or ethnic group do you consider yourself to be

 2    a member of?

 3       A.   My religion is Muslim, and I am a Bosnian.

 4       Q.   Did you ever own any guns?

 5       A.   I have never owned any.

 6       Q.   Ever a member of any political party?

 7       A.   Never, not even during the former Yugoslavia.

 8       Q.   Having lived your whole life in Bosanski Samac, I'm going to ask

 9    you about a few people.  Do you know a man by the name of Simo Zaric?

10       A.   I know him very well.

11       Q.   And knowing him very well, could you look around the courtroom and

12    tell me if he's in this courtroom at this time?

13       A.   He's the first one on the right.

14       Q.   And what colour is his shirt?

15       A.   Grey.

16       Q.   Do you know a man by the name of Miroslav Tadic?

17       A.   Very well.

18       Q.   And could you look around and tell me if he's in this courtroom at

19    this time?

20       A.   Yes, he is, in the middle.  Over there in the middle.  The one

21    with the moustache.

22       Q.   And do you know a man by the name of Blagoje Simic?

23       A.   I know Blagoje Simic only by sight.  I have never had any contact

24    with him.

25       Q.   And does anyone look familiar in this courtroom like the Blagoje

Page 8023

 1    Simic you know by sight?

 2       A.   Maybe.  I'm not sure.  Maybe this gentleman that is writing right

 3    now could be him, but I'm not sure.

 4       Q.   When you say --

 5       A.   Blagoje Simic lived with my sister.  They lived in the same

 6    hallway.  But people change.  I don't know.

 7       Q.   Okay.

 8            MR. WEINER:  Your Honour, may the record reflect that the

 9    defendant Simo Zaric and Miroslav Tadic were identified, and she indicated

10    that Blagoje Simic may be the individual that she remembered, but --

11            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.

12            MR. WEINER:  Thank you.

13       Q.   Now, let us move to January 1992 to mid-April of that same year.

14    Where were you during that time?

15       A.   I was in Croatia, because my daughter lived there.  This was the

16    time of the war in Croatia, and I travelled with her.  She was a refugee

17    with three little children.  I returned on the 15th of April, 1992, to

18    Samac.

19       Q.   Now, were you home on April 17, 1992, at about 3.00 a.m.?

20       A.   Yes.  On the 15th, after 6.00, and also on Thursday and on Friday

21    I was at home.

22       Q.   All right.  Let's move --

23       A.   To my misfortune.

24       Q.   Let's move to April 17th of that year, about 3.00 a.m., 3.00 in

25    the morning.  Did something happen in those early morning hours?

Page 8024

 1       A.   I can't say exactly what time it was, but you could hear loud

 2    shots.  I didn't know what was going on.  I hadn't been to Samac.  I

 3    hadn't been there the previous two or three months, and I didn't know what

 4    was going on.  For me, this was a great surprise, because I never expected

 5    anything similar to happen.

 6       Q.   Did you go outside or did you look out the window?

 7       A.   Only when I heard explosions in the vicinity.  This explosion

 8    happened at the pizzeria, and I saw it from my window.  I saw smoke.  This

 9    explosion happened before that, and I saw smoke, and then I looked through

10    the window.  I was on the third floor.  And I saw soldiers.  These

11    soldiers had the same uniforms as I saw in Croatia.  They were camouflage

12    uniforms.  I thought it was the Croatian army that arrived.  And I tried

13    to get advice from my neighbours.  I went to the first neighbour, the

14    second neighbours, but they weren't home.  I didn't know what to do.  I

15    was completely alone.

16       Q.   Sometime later that morning, around 9.00 or 10.00, did you go to

17    visit any of your other neighbours downstairs?

18       A.   Kikarujof [phoen] lived downstairs.  All of Samac knew him as Cika

19    Juro even though he is not my relative.  We called him that way because he

20    was an older man.  That would mean uncle Juro".  I rang his doorbell, and

21    people who were in his apartment came out.  They were all surprised that I

22    came back, and they said that I came from Osijek the day before the

23    previous day.  And she asked me, "Where were you last night?"  And I said,

24    "I was in my apartment."  And when they asked me who I was with, I said I

25    was alone.  And then they told me I should have come to stay with them and

Page 8025

 1    I said, "Well, I didn't expect anything."  I had no idea what was going on

 2    and I didn't know what could happen.  We were discussing like this -- we

 3    were discussing my arrival, and at that moment, the front door was burst

 4    open, the front door of our entrance, and people downstairs asked who was

 5    there, and Dragica, uncle Juro's wife said, "There is nobody here."  And I

 6    said, "We're all here."  While we were talking like this, five soldiers

 7    came up to us and they had their rifles pointing at us, and they asked us,

 8    "What are you doing?"  We were very confused.  I don't quite remember

 9    what we said.  But then they said that everybody should go their own

10    apartment and they should also show -- we should all show them our IDs.

11       Q.   All right.  Let's take it a little slowly.  Five soldiers came

12    into the hallway of the apartment building; is that correct?

13       A.   Yes, that's correct.

14       Q.   And you indicated they were armed.  How were they dressed?

15       A.   They were armed.  They had camouflage uniforms on.  They had black

16    knitted caps, and they had marks, coloured marks on their faces.

17       Q.   And did you know any of these five soldiers?

18       A.   Yes.  I knew two of them.

19       Q.   Where did two of them come from?

20       A.   One of them grew up in Samac.  Whether he was born there or not, I

21    don't know.  His mother's name was Ruza the Italian, Ruza Italijanka

22    [phoen].  That's how they called her.  I know they called him Cera,

23    something like that, but I'm not sure.

24       Q.   What about the other?

25       A.   The other one was the brother of my former neighbour.  I had known

Page 8026

 1    him as a child.  He would come stay with his sister.  He was of Orthodox

 2    religion.  He was from Croatia.  He was not Bosnian.  But I knew him

 3    through his sister.

 4       Q.   And what was -- and do you recall his name?

 5       A.   His last name was Vukovic.  I don't remember his first name.  But

 6    amongst ourselves, we gave him the nickname Majmun, the monkey.

 7       Q.   Now, you knew two of these five people, two of these five

 8    soldiers.  What about the other three?  Did you recognise them?

 9       A.   I was sure that the other three men came from Serbia, because they

10    spoke in the Ekavian dialect.

11       Q.   And having lived so long in Bosanski Samac, did you recognise them

12    as locals?

13       A.   Well, as I said, Cera grew up in Samac.  Whether he was born there

14    or are moved later, I don't know.  I know him more through his mother

15    because she worked at the same company where I used to work.

16       Q.   No.  I'm talking about the other three that you thought were --

17    that had these Serbian accents.  Did you recognise them as being locals

18    from Samac?

19       A.   No.  No.

20       Q.   And at that time or at some later time, the next day, did you see

21    any patches that those three people with the Serbian accents that you

22    thought came from Serbia had on them, on their uniforms?

23       A.   I was very confused.  I didn't notice anything at the time.  I

24    didn't really look.  I didn't know where to look.  But I did see at my

25    neighbour's that her door was down, and it had some kind of a patch on his

Page 8027

 1    arm, this person that broke down her door, and it had a grey wolf on it.

 2       Q.   Now, you indicated these five soldiers, the two locals and the

 3    five -- I'm sorry, the two locals and the three from Serbia ordered you to

 4    go to your apartments.  What did you do then?

 5       A.   Everybody went to their apartment.  I wasn't gathered enough to

 6    find my ID.  The previous Thursday I had been to the doctor, and I had a

 7    health card, and that's what I took with me.  But this Vukovic man, he

 8    knew me so he didn't really take a look into my ID.  He entered my

 9    apartment and asked me if I had any weapons.

10       Q.   And how did you respond to soldier Vukovic when he asked you if

11    you had any weapons?

12       A.   "I do not."  I said to him that I didn't.  He went into my

13    apartment.  He was lifting cushions from the sofa.  He was opening

14    wardrobes.  He looked through everything and then he left the apartment.

15       Q.   What were the other soldiers doing at that time?

16       A.   At that time, you could hear loud noises, and I didn't know what

17    was going on.  After things got quieter, I saw that seven tenants weren't

18    there and their apartments were broken into.  That's what the soldiers

19    did.

20       Q.   Who was breaking into those other apartments?

21       A.   Those five soldiers.

22       Q.   Okay.  And what happens next?

23       A.   After this man called Cera went to the fourth floor, I was on the

24    hall on the third floor.  He asked for the key so he could go up to the

25    roof where he claimed a sniper was, but Cika Juro said that nobody had a

Page 8028

 1    key, that Babic Milan had the key.

 2       Q.   And where was Babic Milan.

 3       A.   I don't know where he was.  Seven tenants weren't there.  They

 4    were gone.  Of these seven tenants, six were Serbs and one of them had a

 5    mixed marriage.

 6       Q.   What did Cera do after he was unable to get onto the roof because

 7    there was no key?

 8       A.   He said, "Hello, black eagle here," through his walkie-talkie, and

 9    he told him he couldn't find the key.

10       Q.   Did he -- did he say the name of the person he was speaking with?

11    Do you recall the name?

12       A.   Yes.  He said Crni, which means black.

13       Q.   And he told Crni that his code name was black eagle -- I'm sorry,

14    was eagle?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   And what did he tell Crni on that radio, over that radio?  What

17    did he tell Crni?

18       A.   He told him about the key, that he couldn't find the key, so he

19    couldn't go up to the roof.

20       Q.   Did he stay very long after that?

21       A.   Only as long as it took them to search the apartments.

22       Q.   Did Cera have any conversation with you before he left your

23    apartment building?

24       A.   Yes, he did.  He ordered me that I had to keep an eye on the two

25    apartments that were on my floor so that nobody could take anything out of

Page 8029

 1    them.

 2       Q.   And people of what ethnic group resided in those apartments?

 3       A.   As I said, there was six Serbs and one was a mixed marriage.

 4       Q.   But two apartments on your floor, of what ethnic group with those

 5    persons?

 6       A.   They were Serbs.  Names Milan Babic and last name Maslic.  I can't

 7    remember the first name right at this moment.  If you will excuse me for a

 8    second.  Velimir Maslic.  The second tenant was called Maslic Velimir.

 9       Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Now, after they left the apartment, did

10    anything else happen on that date?

11       A.   I went to my apartment, and I was inside.  I didn't pay any

12    attention, and I only asked the next day whether I could go out.

13       Q.   Now, on the next day or the day after, the second or third day

14    after the war started, did you notice anything on your front door, the

15    front door to the building?

16       A.   Yes, I did.  It said that we, that is to say Muslims and Croats,

17    had to wear white armbands and that they could move freely.

18       Q.   So this was some sort of notice posted on the door?

19       A.   Everybody said that -- people amongst themselves talked that we

20    shouldn't leave the house without a white armband.

21       Q.   However, on the door was a notice of some kind, a notice or a

22    letter?

23       A.   Yes.  It was a notice.

24       Q.   And how did you feel about that, having to wear an armband?

25       A.   Of course we older people had learnt from the past.  I immediately

Page 8030

 1    remembered the Second World War, when while I watched my fellow

 2    townspeople wearing white -- yellow bands.  I was talking about the Jews

 3    that one morning just disappeared.  Nobody had been left.  And I expected

 4    us to have that same fate, all of us that had to wear the armbands.

 5       Q.   Now, did you discuss the armbands, the wearing of armbands with

 6    your neighbours and colleagues?

 7       A.   We Muslims were allowed to talk amongst ourselves, but we had no

 8    right to ask anyone of the Orthodox people.

 9       Q.   Was there a discussion as to who issued that order, that notice

10    that was on your door?

11       A.   We talked amongst ourselves, and I found out that it was done by

12    the Crisis Staff.

13       Q.   During those first three days after the war began, did people go

14    somewhere to get their food, their milk and bread?

15       A.   Yes.  We got certain items free in front of the local commune.  We

16    all got these items free, all of us, Muslims, Croats, and Serbs.

17       Q.   And who was distributing those items?

18       A.   The Red Cross was distributing them.

19       Q.   And when you went to the local commune to get those food items,

20    were you wearing your white armband?

21       A.   Naturally.  We weren't allowed to go out without them.

22       Q.   Did you see anyone else wearing the white armbands?

23       A.   Muslims and Croats wore them.  There is a videotape about this

24    made by Cvijan Marinkovic.  He taped us while we were waiting in the line

25    to get milk and bread.

Page 8031

 1       Q.   And was this videotape ever shown anywhere?

 2       A.   We saw similar tapes.  I didn't see myself, but we saw them

 3    through Belgrade while we had electricity.  Afterwards we didn't have

 4    electricity, so we couldn't watch anything.

 5       Q.   When you went out, did you see any soldiers on the streets?

 6       A.   Naturally.

 7       Q.   Were they wearing white armbands?

 8       A.   No.  They had something on their shoulder with three colours,

 9    these three colours.  I don't know what they signified.  Somebody had just

10    one of them, somebody had two, somebody had three colours.

11       Q.   And you pointed --

12            MR. WEINER:  For the record, she pointed toward the top of her

13    shoulder towards her neck, Your Honour.

14            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.

15            MR. WEINER:  If you like, I could have her demonstrate again, Your

16    Honour.

17            JUDGE MUMBA:  Was it the left shoulder or the right shoulder?

18            MR. WEINER:  Was it the left shoulder or the right shoulder or

19    both?

20       A.   Whether it was the left or right or both, I can't be sure, but I

21    know they were there.  Whether the left or the right, but do I know they

22    have them.

23            JUDGE MUMBA:  So it's on one of the shoulder.

24            MR. WEINER:  At the top of the shoulder, close to the neck.

25            JUDGE MUMBA:  Right.

Page 8032

 1            MR. WEINER:

 2       Q.   Now, how long did the Red Cross supply bread and milk?

 3       A.   First days of the war.  Later we could buy them at the grocery

 4    store or in the market, whatever there was to be bought.  At the

 5    beginning, there was only one store that was working, that was selling

 6    bread, and we could go there and buy bread if we were -- if it was

 7    available on at that day.

 8       Q.   Before that, I just want to ask you, do you know a man by the name

 9    of Omer Nalic?

10       A.   I know him very well.

11       Q.   Did you see him during the first three or four days of the war?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   And tell the Court the situation where you saw Omer Nalic.

14       A.   They beat Omer Nalic very much.  They showed him -- they took him

15    around town all bloodied, and they were putting him on display so that the

16    rest of us would be scared and leave Bosanski Samac.

17       Q.   When you say "they," who was taking him around town on a truck all

18    bloodied?

19       A.   Well, the people that were fighting.  Those that allegedly

20    liberated us.

21       Q.   And are you referring to the soldiers from the Republika Srpska

22    and the 4th detachment?

23       A.   Republika Srpska didn't exist at the time.  It might have been the

24    people from the 4th Detachment.  And they said that they liberated us, and

25    I was wondering who from.  They liberated us from freedom?

Page 8033

 1       Q.   Now, you indicated that you would go to a grocery store, that

 2    there was one grocery store that was open.  Where was that grocery store

 3    located?

 4       A.   It was at the marketplace.

 5       Q.   And how often did you go to that grocery store?

 6       A.   Almost every day.

 7       Q.   And were you wearing your white armband when you went there almost

 8    every day?

 9       A.   Of course.  Without fail.

10       Q.   And were any Serb civilians wearing white armbands?

11       A.   Never.  It was us who were marked for destruction.

12       Q.   When you went to these -- when you went to this store wearing your

13    armband, were you always able to buy food at the local grocery store?

14       A.   It all depended on the shop assistants.  Sometimes they would give

15    it to us, sometimes not.  If they wouldn't, we could do nothing about it

16    even if we could very well see that there was bread available.  And it

17    only happened to us Croats and Muslims.

18       Q.   Why wouldn't they sell you bread or milk?

19       A.   They were just venting their base instincts, taking advantage of

20    us.  We had no right to complain.

21       Q.   How did they say -- what did they say to you when they wouldn't

22    let you buy food?

23       A.   They would say, "No bread."  We could see it very well on the --

24    on the shelves.  I could see it, but I wouldn't argue.  I would just leave

25    the shop.

Page 8034

 1       Q.   Did you ever see Serb civilians that were refused to be sold any

 2    bread?

 3       A.   No.

 4       Q.   Now, were there any other shops in Bosanski Samac where you could

 5    buy food?

 6       A.   The only shop selling bread was the one I mentioned.  I'm talking

 7    about bread now.  At the marketplace, we could buy what was available.

 8       Q.   So if they would not sell you -- if they would not sell the bread

 9    to the Muslims and Croats at that grocery store, you could not get bread?

10       A.   Certainly.

11       Q.   Was there any butcher shops that were open where you could get

12    meat?

13       A.   Yes, there were.  There was one private shop.

14       Q.   And did they sell you meat?

15       A.   They did.

16       Q.   Now, let's continue.  At that early stage during the spring of

17    1992, would you be mainly at home or outside during that time?

18       A.   I would mainly stay at home and go out only when I had to.  I sort

19    of avoided going out because of this armband I had to wear.

20       Q.   Did you ever listen to the radio while you were home during the

21    spring of 1992?

22       A.   I did.  I listened to the radio.  It was particularly painful to

23    listen to one broadcast when Simo Zaric was speaking.  He was telling the

24    most awful things about us Muslims, that we should disappear, that we have

25    no roots, no origin, that we were nobodies.  Here he is sitting right

Page 8035

 1    there, Mr. Zaric.

 2       Q.   All right.  Let's take it slow.  You were listening to the radio.

 3    While you were listening to the radio, you heard the defendant Zaric

 4    speaking?

 5       A.   I listened to him, and I can confirm this while looking him

 6    straight in the eye.

 7       Q.   All right.  Tell me, how did you know it was Simo Zaric?  Did they

 8    announce -- did he introduce himself?  Did they announce his name?  How do

 9    you know it was Simo Zaric?

10       A.   Well, his voice is no less recognisable than my own.  Samac is a

11    small town with a population of less than 10.000.  We all know one

12    another.  I know where everybody's from, everybody's roots.

13       Q.   And did they ever announce his name on the radio show or on the

14    radio programme?

15       A.   That wasn't really necessary.  Maybe they did; maybe they didn't.

16    It was widely known that it was Zaric speaking.

17       Q.   And you recognised his voice and recognised Simo Zaric on that

18    radio station?

19       A.   Yeah, yes, of course.  It wasn't just that one broadcast.  Perhaps

20    it was a tape that was repeated several times a day for several days for a

21    long, long time.

22       Q.   And there were derogatory statements about Muslims?

23       A.   That's correct.

24       Q.   Was there any discussion about extremists?

25       A.   Of course.  All Muslims are extremists, and everybody was saying

Page 8036

 1    that there were some lists of names.  Muslims were named who were

 2    supposedly intending to destroy Serbs in Bosanski Samac.  But we never saw

 3    that list.  They always threatened with this list and used it as a pretext

 4    when taking people allegedly to be interviewed or questioned.  They

 5    mentioned this list as including people who intended to do some sort of

 6    evil.

 7            MR. WEINER:  Your Honour, apparently the technicians need to pause

 8    to change the tapes.  They need approximately a one-minute pause.  I could

 9    do so right here.

10            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.  We can just wait for them to do so.

11            JUDGE WILLIAMS:  Mr. Weiner, before you continue, I wonder whether

12    you could seek a clarification.  Page 40, line 19.  When the witness says

13    in answer your -- your question was:  "Was there any discussion about

14    extremists on the radio?"  And the answer was:  "Of course.  All Muslims

15    are extremists," et cetera, et cetera.  Could the witness tell us whether

16    that was what she heard on the radio, because otherwise it's a bit oblique

17    the way it sounds there.

18            MR. WEINER:  Yes.  I had several questions along those lines.

19       Q.   First I want to apologise, ma'am, for the interruption.  The

20    technicians had to change a tape in the system.  So we'll continue on.  I

21    have some questions to clarify a few statements.

22            All right.  Now, I asked you if there was any discussion on that

23    radio show involving Simo Zaric about extremists -- or actually, on the

24    radio show was there any discussion about extremists, and you said, "Of

25    course.  All Muslims are extremists."  Did someone on that radio show make

Page 8037

 1    that statement?

 2       A.   Right.  They did.  "Muslim extremists."  It's a direct quote.

 3    "Muslim extremists."  Sometimes they would say Muslim and Croat

 4    extremists.  Oftentimes they called us Ustashas.

 5       Q.   Who?

 6       A.   People.  People of Orthodox Christian faith.

 7       Q.   But who on the radio show?  Who was making those statements about

 8    the Muslims or the Croatians?

 9       A.   Mr. Zaric.

10       Q.   Did Simo Zaric say anything about the Serbs?

11       A.   They were the heavenly people, the heavenly nation.  That's what

12    they called themselves.

13       Q.   And did Simo Zaric make that reference to the Serb as being a

14    heavenly nation?

15       A.   All of them.  All of them were calling themselves the nation, in

16    fact, the heavenly nation.  Everybody, including Mr. Zaric.

17       Q.   And was he calling, referring to the Serbs a heavenly nation at

18    the same time that he was saying derogatory remarks about the Croats and

19    the Muslims?

20       A.   Well, specifically on that radio programme, whether he mentioned

21    the heavenly nation, maybe, yes, maybe not.  I don't know.  But he was

22    saying that Muslim and Croat extremists were going to destroy the Serb

23    people.  That's what he said.  And when referring to them, to themselves,

24    he would say that Serbs were a heavenly, celestial nation.

25       Q.   And did Simo Zaric ever use the word Ustasha when he spoke on the

Page 8038

 1    radio?

 2       A.   They were saying that Ustashas were going to come before them, and

 3    they had come first instead as liberators.  Ustashas were mentioned so

 4    often that I don't really remember the specific situations any more.

 5       Q.   Okay.  You keep on saying "they."  Was Simo Zaric using those

 6    phrases, using that term when he was speaking on the radio, "Ustasha"?

 7       A.   Well, I'm saying that this word was repeated so often that I don't

 8    even remember any more the specific occasions.  But yes, he did.  He was

 9    prone to -- to say "Ustashas."  I would hear him in the street.  I didn't

10    listen to the radio that much, but other people would tell me later about

11    programmes that I personally didn't hear.

12       Q.   All right.  Now, you mention that also on the radio there was

13    discussion of lists, of some lists being found.  Could you explain what

14    you meant by that?

15       A.   Well, they were saying -- Serbs were saying that they were in

16    possession of lists from which you could see the names and surnames of

17    Muslims as well as Serb members whose houses were going to be burnt or

18    families killed, and they used this as a pretext when taking people to

19    interrogations from which they never came back before they were

20    exchanged.  However, we never saw those lists, as a matter of fact.  And

21    if they exist at all, I would appreciate it if the gentleman would show

22    them to me so I could see who was going to kill whom.

23       Q.   All right.  Let us move on.  Let's move on with just one question.

24    With regard to the lists that were mentioned on the radio station, did

25    Simo Zaric, did the defendant Simo Zaric, ever mention those lists or

Page 8039

 1    describe or discuss those lists on the radio show?

 2       A.   Well, specifically on the radio, I don't know.  I didn't listen to

 3    everything.  However, all of them, all Serbs told us and told me

 4    specifically that there were lists naming names of Muslim extremists who

 5    were going to destroy -- whether it was one man or one family or one

 6    house, I don't know.  In any case, those lists were in the Serbs'

 7    possession.  And I'm saying again, if those lists exist, I would like to

 8    see them.  And let these gentlemen show the Trial Chamber these lists to

 9    prove who was going to do what.

10       Q.   All right.  Let's -- let's move on into May -- early to mid-May of

11    1992.  Do you recall another notice being placed on your front door, the

12    front door to your building?

13       A.   I can't remember.  I can't remember.

14       Q.   Well, let me try and refresh your recollection.  Do you recall any

15    notices being placed in relation to gathering of persons?

16       A.   That's right.  Sorry.  I couldn't remember it straight away.

17    There was a notice on my entrance door and all around town banning the

18    gathering of more than two Muslims or Croats.  Up to two were allowed to

19    assemble.

20       Q.   Now, you said it was on your front door and all around town.

21    Where were these notices posted around town?

22       A.   Everywhere.  On shop windows, on walls.

23       Q.   Now, also about that time - we're talking about early to mid-May -

24    did something happen to the telephones belonging to the Muslims and Croats

25    of Bosanski Samac?

Page 8040

 1       A.   One day they disconnected the telephones of all Muslims and

 2    Croats.  We no longer had any lines connecting us to the outside world.

 3       Q.   Did you have a telephone?

 4       A.   Of course.

 5       Q.   And was it working up until that point?

 6       A.   No.  Well, up until that point, you mean.  Up until that point, it

 7    was working.  At first I thought there was something wrong with my

 8    telephone.  I tried to put a call through and couldn't.  I couldn't get

 9    the dial tone.  And later, I learnt that they disconnected everybody's

10    telephones at the same time.  I learned that from my brothers and from my

11    fellow townsfolk, but only Muslims and Croats.

12       Q.   What about your Serb neighbours?  Did they have telephones and

13    were they working?

14       A.   They did have telephones, and we heard them ringing.  I personally

15    heard them ringing.

16       Q.   Now, up until that point while you were phone was still

17    functioning, would you ever contact any of your relatives outside of

18    Bosnia?

19       A.   Yes.  I contacted my brother in Zagreb, my sister in Negotin, and

20    my daughter in Croatia.

21       Q.   Your sister in Negotin, where is that located, Negotin?

22       A.   Negotin is in Republika Srpska.  No.  No.  In Serbia.  In the

23    Republic of Serbia.

24       Q.   And after your phone was disconnected, could you speak with your

25    sister in the Republic of Serbia?

Page 8041

 1       A.   My sister who was living in the Republic of Serbia, I had no

 2    contact with her until October 1993, when I first managed to make a call.

 3       Q.   Okay.  The telephones were disconnected in May of 1992.  You first

 4    spoke with your sister in October of 1992 or October of 1993?

 5       A.   1993.

 6       Q.   And please tell the Court how did you go about contacting your

 7    sister?

 8       A.   She had a work colleague who was also a close friend, and this

 9    woman told me that I could use her phone.  She told me to come to her home

10    and that my sister would call me on Wednesday at 12.00.  And we continued

11    this practice.  Every Wednesday at noon, I would talk to my sister from

12    the house of this colleague and friend of my sister's.

13       Q.   And this colleague or friend of your sister's, where did she

14    live?  In what town?

15       A.   She lived in Bosanski Samac.  They had been to school together,

16    and they worked to the until the time when my sister left for Serbia.

17       Q.   Now, how come her telephone was functioning and yours wasn't?

18       A.   She was a Serb.

19       Q.   Now, did something happen in November with this friend of your

20    sister?

21       A.   She apologised and said that she couldn't allow me to talk from

22    her home any more.  And I learned at that time that the public phone at

23    the post office was working.

24       Q.   And did you go to the post office and use that public telephone?

25       A.   I went to the post office every day at 12.00 because my sister's

Page 8042

 1    husband was very ill, and every day at 12.00 I went there to call and to

 2    see how they were, how they had spent the night, how they had eaten,

 3    slept.  Every day at noon.

 4       Q.   Now, when you went to the post office every day, did anyone bother

 5    you as you walked to and from the post office?

 6       A.   All kinds of things happened.  Among other things, I'll tell you

 7    about the time when a group of teenagers chanted after me, "I don't like

 8    you, Alija, because you are a balija."  The time came for Serbs to take

 9    their revenge and for the mosques to be blown up."  And they would finish

10    this with a ululating type of sound typical of Serbian folk songs.

11       Q.   Now, when they said that all mosques were to be blown up, what was

12    the status of the mosque in Bosanski Samac?

13       A.   The mosque was blown up in a loud explosion which damaged many

14    buildings around the mosque, shattering the glass, destroying windows and

15    damaging the tiles on the roof-tops.

16       Q.   Now, let's continue along this period, this spring and summer of

17    1992.  Did you ever see any of the defendants in Bosanski Samac?

18       A.   Sorry.  Did you mean defendants or the wounded -- oh, defendants.

19    I see.

20       Q.   The accused.  Did you see any of the accused in Bosanski Samac

21    during that period in the spring and summer of 1992?

22       A.   I did see the people sitting here, the people I know, and assert

23    that I know them, in the spring and summer of 1992.

24            Mr. Zaric stayed in Samac until Odzak fell, in my books, or was

25    liberated, in their books.

Page 8043

 1       Q.   And when you saw Simo Zaric, how was he dressed?  Was he in

 2    civilian clothes or uniform?

 3       A.   Mostly in uniform.  I don't even remember seeing him in civilian

 4    clothes.

 5       Q.   What about Miroslav Tadic?  Did you ever see Miroslav Tadic in

 6    Bosanski Samac during the spring and summer of 1992?

 7       A.   I used to see Miroslav Tadic from day one, from the day when Serbs

 8    entered into Samac and when they renamed it into Serbian Samac.  From day

 9    one until the day when I crossed over into Croatia, I saw him all the

10    time.

11       Q.   And when you saw him, how was he dressed, in uniform or in

12    civilian clothing?

13       A.   In uniform.  Long beard, mustache, the same mustache that he had

14    had before, small glasses.  He resembled Draza Mihajlovic.  He wanted to

15    resemble him on purpose.

16            I would also like to add that in his right arm, he always had a

17    Scorpion and his finger on the trigger, and that is how he was walking

18    around town.

19       Q.   When you say he had a Scorpion, "He was carrying a Scorpion in his

20    right hand, his finger on the trigger," what do you mean?

21       A.   I asked some others and they explained to me that was a Scorpion.

22    I saw it and I didn't know what it was.  It looks like a rifle but it is

23    very short, like this.  It wasn't a rifle, but it wasn't a pistol either

24    because it was a longer than a pistol.  And he always had his index finger

25    on the trigger, and that's how he was walking around at any time of day or

Page 8044

 1    night.

 2       Q.   Now, during this period, you had just don't back a few days

 3    earlier before the war started, and over the next two, three months, how

 4    did you feel about this whole thing that was happening in Bosanski Samac?

 5       A.   I was very confused.  I didn't know what was going on.  At the

 6    first moment, I said it was the Croatian army, because I saw some soldiers

 7    in camouflage uniform, and that's why I assumed they were the Croatian

 8    army, and that is why I went to my neighbours, and I wanted to ask them,

 9    "What is the Croatian army doing here?"  Since the war in Croatian was

10    already going on.

11       Q.   And was that the Croatian army?

12       A.   Well, it wasn't.  I think it was the Yugoslav army, together with

13    our local townspeople, I think.

14       Q.   Now, during those first three months, did something happen to the

15    Croatian men in Bosanski Samac?

16       A.   Some time went by, very brief period, and then our phones were

17    disconnected.  Then they took all Croatian men and put them in the

18    secondary school in Bosanski Samac.  The Croatian women and children were

19    taken to Crkvina, to the cultural centre.

20       Q.   How long did the Croatian women and children remain at the

21    cultural centre in Crkvina?  How long were they held there?

22       A.   Maybe a day or two.  They all returned home.  The women and the

23    children returned.  The men did not.

24       Q.   And you said that they held Croatian men at the high school?

25       A.   That's correct.

Page 8045

 1       Q.   How did you know Croatian men were being held at the high school?

 2       A.   My neighbour, Ruzica, who worked at the job centre, and the people

 3    present here know them, the so-called Samac townspeople, she said that

 4    Pero was with -- that Pero told her that her husband had told Pero that he

 5    was at the high school, and he asked her to come to the high school and

 6    bring him some food.

 7       Q.   Did you have any relatives that were being held at the high

 8    school?

 9       A.   Yes.  This Pero, my sister's in-law.  The daughter of my sister is

10    married to him.  He's from Zasavica.  He was there with two more

11    brothers.  All three brothers were detained there.

12       Q.   Let me get this straight.  Your sisters son-in-law and his two

13    brothers were being held at the high school; is that correct?

14       A.   That's correct.

15       Q.   Now, in the beginning, were you able to visit these people at the

16    high school, bring them any food?

17       A.   Every day we would go and we brought them bedding, that is to say

18    only the pillow and the covers so that they would have something to sleep

19    on.

20       Q.   And did you go with some of the others to bring food or bedding or

21    whatever to the high school, to the prisoners at the high school?

22       A.   Yes.  I brought some things to Pero and his brothers the whole

23    time they were there.  The whole time they were detained, I would bring

24    them things.

25       Q.   Now, you previously mentioned an older neighbour called Uncle

Page 8046

 1    Juro, the person you went to speak to on the first day.  Approximately

 2    what age was he?

 3       A.   He was very old, older than me.  He's 10 or 15 years older than

 4    me.  He was definitely over 60.

 5       Q.   Did anything happen to him, Uncle Juro, this older man, during

 6    those first few days of the war?

 7       A.   Yes.  They took him along with the other Croats.

 8       Q.   And was he held at the high school?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   Now, these people that were held, these Croatian prisoners, did

11    you know these people from Bosanski Samac?

12       A.   I knew everybody who lived in Bosanski Samac.  I didn't know all

13    of the people from the villages.  And there were both people from Bosanski

14    Samac and the villages detained there.

15       Q.   Now, these Croatian prisoners that were being held at the high

16    school, were these people soldiers or civilians?

17       A.   There were no Croats or Muslims amongst the soldiers except for

18    the ones that were members of the 4th Detachment.  Whether we were

19    betrayed or liberated, whether they helped the ones that either liberated

20    us or took us prisoner, I don't know.

21       Q.   But these people who were being held, they were not soldiers?

22            MR. PANTELIC:  Objection.  Objection, Your Honours.  Calling for

23    speculation.

24            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes, Mr. Weiner?

25            MR. WEINER:  I don't think it's speculation.  If she's known these

Page 8047

 1    people all her life, she can tell whether or not these people were

 2    soldiers or civilians

 3            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.  It's a direct question from which the witness

 4    from her own knowledge can answer.

 5            MR. PANTELIC:  She's not an expert to make a difference between

 6    civilians and soldiers, Your Honour.  That was my basis for the objection,

 7    of course.

 8            JUDGE MUMBA:  All right.  The Trial Chamber will allow the witness

 9    to answer the question.

10            MR. WEINER:

11       Q.   My question is, ma'am, these people, these Croatian prisoners that

12    were -- these Croatians that were being held at the high school, were they

13    soldiers or civilians?

14       A.   They were civilians.  Uncle Juro couldn't have been a soldier

15    because he was more than 60 years old.

16       Q.   If he was 15 -- approximately 15 years older than you, he would

17    have to be about 75 years old at the time.  Does that sound correct, his

18    approximate age, about 75 years old?

19       A.   Yes.  He was old.  I don't know what year he was born, but he was

20    very old.  And the defendants know that as well.  They know how old he

21    was.  He was at least over 60, maybe even over 70 years old.

22       Q.   Now, you talked about the Croatian men that were being arrested

23    and held.  What about Muslim men?  Were they being arrested?

24       A.   At that time, some Muslims were detained.  We didn't know who was

25    being detained.  We had no information about that.  But we found out that

Page 8048

 1    there were relatively few Muslims detained at the time while they were

 2    fighting with the Croats and trying to liquidate them and get -- rid them

 3    out of Bosnia.  They weren't locking up Muslims at that particular time

 4    all that much.  I don't know the schedule of when they were detaining

 5    whom, because we were never given any information.

 6       Q.   Let's take it slowly.  When the Muslims were being detained --

 7    let's start when Muslims were being detained, where were they being held

 8    in Bosanski Samac?

 9       A.   Some Muslims were detained in the part of the primary school that

10    didn't burn down.  Some were detained at the TO, and some were detained at

11    the SUP.

12       Q.   Did you have any relatives that were detained in any of those

13    facilities, any of those prison camps?

14       A.   Of course.  Two sons of my oldest brother, my nephew who was --

15    who is a year older than me.  His name is Alija Drljacic.  He was also

16    detained.  And he was also in Batkovic.

17       Q.   All right.  Let me just clarify this.  Your -- is it your

18    brother's name who is Alija Drljacic or you had a nephew named Alija

19    Drljacic?

20       A.   My nephew's name is Alija Drljacic.  My brother was called Safet

21    and his two sons were called Hasan and Abdulah.

22       Q.   And they were all detained?

23       A.   With the others, yes.

24       Q.   Now, these three nephews, were they soldiers or were they

25    civilians?

Page 8049

 1       A.   They were all civilians.  How could they be soldiers?  I don't

 2    know what they meant by Muslim extremists.  I don't know what they meant

 3    to say when they said that we were all Muslim extremists.

 4       Q.   How were the Muslim men treated that were being held in these

 5    three prison camps, the TO, the SUP, and the primary school?

 6       A.   They know how they felt.  But the neighbours heard their beatings,

 7    how they had to sing Chetnik songs, how they were screaming from the

 8    beatings.  The neighbours could hear it, and then they would tell us

 9    everything.  They would say, "Last night there was a lot of beating."

10       Q.   So you received information from the neighbours or the people who

11    live near the TO and the SUP or the people who live near the primary

12    school?  Who was providing this information as to the beatings that were

13    going on?

14       A.   People that lived nearby, those who heard the beatings.  They

15    couldn't see anything, but they heard screams and the songs that they had

16    to sing.

17       Q.   After you were exchanged, did you ever meet your nephew Avdo who

18    had been held?

19       A.   Yes.  He lived in Orasje.  He is my nephew.  My nephew Hasan I had

20    not seen after that, but I know he's alive, and he lives somewhere in

21    England.

22       Q.   And where had your nephew Avdo been held, in which prison camps?

23       A.   First he was detained in the primary school.  Then he was -- I

24    don't know when he was transferred to the TO, but I know when he left the

25    TO.  I was an eyewitness to that.

Page 8050

 1       Q.   And where did he go after the TO?

 2       A.   Their eyes were blindfolded, and they were taken on the bus, but I

 3    don't know what direction they went to.  And later we found out they went

 4    to Batkovic, but they were all blindfolded.

 5       Q.   Now, when did you see him after your release?

 6       A.   I saw him after I was exchanged.

 7       Q.   Do you know the month and year?

 8       A.   I was exchanged on the 25th of December, 1993, and then after a

 9    few days I went directly to my daughters, and then after a few days I went

10    to visit him.

11       Q.   And how did he appear?

12       A.   Awful.  And I had seen him after -- a year after he left.  So he

13    had a whole year to recuperate.

14       Q.   Did he look just like you recalled when you first -- when you saw

15    him prior to the war?  Did he look the same as when you saw him prior to

16    the war?

17       A.   Unfortunately, no.  They took out his teeth.  He got very old.

18       Q.   Okay.  We'll move on from that.

19            JUDGE MUMBA:  We can have a break, Mr. Weiner.  We've been

20    sitting -- we can have a break up to 17.30 hours.

21            MR. WEINER:  Just one thing, Your Honour.  Could -- at about 6.00

22    or so could we see how the witness is feeling?  Because of her age, I'm a

23    little bit concerned about going long past 6.00.  Just inquire.

24            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.  So you may be able to determine that during

25    the break.  So we will adjourn until 17.30 hours.

Page 8051

 1                          --- Recess taken at 5.05 p.m.

 2                          --- On resuming at 5.33 p.m.

 3            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.  The Prosecution continues.

 4            MR. WEINER:  Yes.  Two matters, Your Honour.  One is the

 5    translators handed me a note that a comment that was made in relation

 6    to -- I asked her what colour was Mr. Zaric's shirt and she answered what

 7    colour his hair was.  And the translators have asked me to clarify that

 8    for the record.

 9            JUDGE MUMBA:  Oh, yes.

10            MR. WEINER:  It came with a sheet of paper.  The other thing is

11    once again, I would probably recommend around 6.00 maybe to break a little

12    bit early because of her age.

13            JUDGE MUMBA:  All right.  She can't hear.

14            THE WITNESS:  Excuse me.  Excuse me.

15            JUDGE MUMBA:  Can you hear now?

16            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

17            JUDGE MUMBA:  So, Mr. Weiner, proceed.

18            MR. WEINER:

19       Q.   Ma'am, I'd like to ask you a question.  Earlier today when we

20    started, I asked you a question concerning Simo Zaric's shirt, and I just

21    spoke to the translators at the break, and you said his hair was grey.

22    Let's just clarify that.

23            What colour is Mr. Zaric's hair?  Looking --

24       A.   His hair is grey.  I thought you were talking about his hair.

25       Q.   Okay.  And his --

Page 8052

 1       A.   [In English] No.  No listen.

 2       Q.   Okay.  And what colour is his shirt?

 3       A.   [Interpretation] His shirt is white.

 4       Q.   I just wanted to clarify, Your Honour.  That is the colour of hair

 5    and shirt of Mr. Zaric.  So again she has properly identified the correct

 6    man, for the record?

 7            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.

 8            MR. WEINER: Thank you.

 9       Q.   Okay.

10       A.   [In English] Sometime no listen.  Broken.  [Interpretation] Yes.

11    I can hear now.

12            JUDGE MUMBA:  All right.  We can proceed.

13            MR. WEINER:

14       Q.   Can you hear me right now?

15       A.   Yes, I can hear you well now.

16       Q.   Okay.  Thank you very much.  All right.  Let us continue.

17            From late April through the summer and fall of 1992, let's talk

18    about the conditions as they existed in Bosanski Samac.  Were Muslim men

19    treated in a humiliating and -- in a humiliating manner?

20       A.   Certainly.  Everybody, not only men but women too, had to work.

21    They worked in places where they were degraded the most.

22       Q.   All right.  Let's discuss that.  What do you mean that people

23    were -- had to work -- men and women had to work in places in which they

24    were degraded the most?  Explain it, explain it to the Judges, please.

25       A.   Serbs called it the work obligation, but in fact it was forced

Page 8053

 1    labour.  Forced labour.

 2       Q.   Let's take some examples.  Do you know a man by the name of Ahmet

 3    Hadzialijagic?

 4       A.   Hadzialijagic was the managing director of Jugobanka and the

 5    accused know this.  He was made to perform manual, degrading jobs, such as

 6    street sweeping.

 7       Q.   You said he was the manager of a bank.  Was that the Jugobanka?

 8       A.   Jugobanka, right.

 9       Q.   You said he had to do -- to perform degrading jobs such as

10    sweeping.  Where did he have to sweep in relation to Jugobanka where he

11    had served as director?

12       A.   Everywhere, including in the streets where Jugobanka was

13    situated.  Streets are very short and the distances are small.  He had to

14    work in the vicinity of his own bank.

15       Q.   Do you know a person by the name of Mirza Vejzovic?  Mirza

16    Vejzovic was one of the directors in the Samac textile industry.  He was

17    the sales director.  He also did all sorts of degrading jobs, including

18    the sweeping of the compound of the Samac textile industry.

19       Q.   So he had to sweep the compound of the same business that he had

20    served as a director?

21       A.   That's right.

22       Q.   Were you familiar with a man from Bosanski Samac with the last

23    name of Jusufovic?

24       A.   Jusufovic used to be the director of the secondary school centre.

25       Q.   And is that the same as a high school principal?

Page 8054

 1       A.   Yes.  Yes.  The -- the headmaster.  He used to be a teacher, but

 2    he occupied the position of director or headmaster, principal.

 3       Q.   And what did they make him do?

 4       A.   All times of manual work.  And throughout the war, he had to load

 5    and unload from trucks, from warehouses into shops, anywhere.  All sorts

 6    of humiliating jobs.  That's what they called the work obligation, whereas

 7    in fact it was forced labour.

 8       Q.   Now, these three individuals that you just mentioned who were

 9    given menial tasks to perform, were these educated persons?

10       A.   Exclusively.  They were all educated persons.

11       Q.   All university trained?

12       A.   All university trained, those three.

13       Q.   And did you see any Serbs during this same period being forced to

14    sweep the streets?

15       A.   Why, no, never.

16       Q.   You mentioned men that had to perform some forced labour.  We were

17    just talking about some men.  What about women?  Did Muslim or Croat women

18    in Bosanski Samac have to perform forced labour?

19       A.   Certainly.  I would only like to stress that Muslim men did all

20    the hardest forms of labour, including the digging of trenches between the

21    Serbs and the army of Bosnia -- army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

22       Q.   And while you're talking about that, the digging of trenches

23    between the two armies, was anyone ever injured while digging those

24    trenches?

25       A.   Yes.  Some people were wounded.  Some were killed.

Page 8055

 1       Q.   Now, let's continue on with the women.  Were women of Muslim and

 2    Croatian -- of the Muslim and Croatian ethnic group forced to work in

 3    Bosanski Samac?

 4       A.   All of them had received call-ups requiring them to report at a

 5    certain time.  But let me emphasise that every Serb woman could easily

 6    order any Muslim woman to come to her place and clean her house and even

 7    wash her feet.

 8       Q.   Did you know any Muslim women who had to go and do chores at the

 9    home of a civilian -- that were forced to do chores at the home of a

10    civilian in Bosanski Samac?

11       A.   I knew all the women.  I can't tell you specifically that this

12    woman had to work at that time.  But in any case, any Serb woman, man, or

13    child had the power to order any Muslim anything.  We had no right to

14    object or complain.

15       Q.   Were you of any -- were you aware of any cases, any of your

16    friends who were just told by a Serb woman that they had to come to their

17    house to clean, to wash, to iron, to perform any chores?

18       A.   She would address the people giving orders, and those people would

19    then tell the women to do such-and-such a job.

20       Q.   Now, when you say "she would address," are you talking about a

21    Serb woman who would go to the people who were assigning jobs and request

22    labour?

23       A.   That's right.  That's right.  And a Serb woman could even say, "I

24    want this woman in particular."

25       Q.   Where would you go to make these requests for labourers?

Page 8056

 1       A.   I don't know.

 2       Q.   However, you were aware that -- however, were friends of yours,

 3    colleagues of yours forced to work in homes?

 4       A.   All those people who worked had to sign those call-up papers

 5    indicating the time when they had to report.

 6       Q.   Okay.  Let me ask you this about the people who had to work:  Do

 7    you know anyone who was paid for the work that they performed?

 8       A.   I don't know any such person.

 9            JUDGE WILLIAMS:  Mr. Weiner, I don't think you're -- excuse me.  I

10    don't think your question has been directly answered as to whether the

11    witness knows of any friends or relatives who were called upon to work in

12    homes and so on.  Perhaps if we could see whether there is a response to

13    that.

14            MR. WEINER:

15       Q.   All right.

16       A.   Every woman, every woman who received the summons to report at a

17    certain place at a certain time had to report and receive her orders as to

18    what she would be doing.

19       Q.   Okay.  Here's the question.  If you could just listen carefully.

20    The question isn't whether or not you had to work, you had to report and

21    work, is did you know people, did you know women as friends, relatives,

22    neighbours, colleagues, that had to report and work in homes, in the homes

23    of Serbs?

24       A.   We all know -- every person in Samac knows everybody else.  So

25    everybody would tell the others, "I had been at such-and-such a place

Page 8057

 1    doing such-and-such a job."

 2       Q.   Okay.  And did you hear from anybody, did you yourself hear from

 3    anyone that they had to go to the home of a Serb and do certain work?  Did

 4    you hear from anyone, either friends, relatives, colleagues, or

 5    neighbours?

 6       A.   I heard such things on several occasions.  I can't recall anything

 7    specific now.  But in any case, the accused are perfectly well aware of

 8    this.

 9       Q.   Okay.  Without referring to the accused, but you had heard, people

10    had told you, although you can't recall anything specific now, people had

11    told you back then about this, about being forced to work in someone

12    else's home?

13       A.   Women worked in other people's homes on the orders of the

14    housewife in question, the owner of that home who needed somebody to do

15    the housecleaning.

16       Q.   Okay.  And you knew some of these women?

17       A.   I have already told you that we all know each other in Samac.

18    Samac is a small place.

19            JUDGE MUMBA:  Can you give us any names of such women who worked

20    in the homes of Serb women?

21            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't tell you the name of this or

22    that woman in specific, but that was the practice at the time, and we

23    would all tell each other who had been doing what and where.

24            MR. WEINER:

25       Q.   All right.  Let's continue on.  Maybe we'll look at this topic

Page 8058

 1    again tomorrow, but let's continue on for a little while.

 2            Teufik Drljacic, is that --

 3       A.   Teufik Drljacic is my brother.

 4       Q.   Was he living in Bosanski Samac in the spring and summer of 1992?

 5       A.   My brother has lived -- lived in Bosanski Samac since the day he

 6    was born until he left Samac in the course of an exchange on the 24th, and

 7    on the 25th, we crossed over.

 8       Q.   So he was exchanged with you in December 24th or December 25th,

 9    1993?

10       A.   That's correct.  We were the last from my family to be exchanged.

11    And it wasn't an exchange.  It was expulsion.

12       Q.   Okay.  We'll get to that a little bit later.  But let's talk about

13    your brother.  What did he do for work?

14       A.   Before the war, my brother owned his own glazing business.  And

15    after the so-called liberation by the Serbs, all the businesses were

16    looted, and his shop was taken over.  He, however, had to do all kinds of

17    jobs in his line of work, both in town and outside town, using his own

18    material without getting paid.

19       Q.   All right.  Let's take it one step at a time.  Your brother had a

20    shop.  Was that shop located in Bosanski Samac?

21       A.   The shop was in Bosanski Samac, in Vuk Karadzic Street.  I don't

22    remember the number.

23       Q.   Okay.  Now, that was a glazier shop where they fix glass and

24    mirrors?

25       A.   That's correct.

Page 8059

 1       Q.   And what happened after the war started in April of 1992?  Was his

 2    shop closed or did someone take it over?

 3       A.   He got a new boss by the name of Milos.  Milos was a man from

 4    Tisina, and he became the manager, whereas my brother became his worker,

 5    his employee.

 6       Q.   Well, prior to  Milos being made your brother's new boss, wasn't

 7    your brother his own boss?  Wasn't that your brother's shop?

 8       A.   Yes.  The shop belonged to him, but that other man became his boss

 9    and gave him orders.  My brother had to do whatever Milos wanted.

10       Q.   Who appointed -- who took your brother's business away and

11    appointed Milos as his boss?

12       A.   I don't know that.

13       Q.   This Milos who was appointed your brother's boss of your brother's

14    own business, where was he from?  Was he from Bosanski Samac?

15       A.   He was from Tisina, the village nearest to Bosanski Samac.

16       Q.   And when was your brother's shop confiscated?

17       A.   The same day.  The day when we were occupied.

18       Q.   So in April of 1992?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   Now, was your brother forced to work at the shop and at other

21    locations?

22       A.   Certainly.  He didn't work only in Samac.  He worked in Obudovac,

23    in Odzak as well, when Mr. Zaric was some sort of commander in Odzak.

24       Q.   And what did he do in Odzak when the defendant Simo Zaric was a

25    commander there?

Page 8060

 1       A.   He worked as a glass cutter, as a glazier.  He repaired windows.

 2    He made windowpanes.

 3       Q.   Okay.  And did he work during the day, or day and night, or when

 4    did he work?

 5       A.   Well, if he went to Odzak, he would spend the day there.  But at

 6    any time of day and night whenever some Serb's windows were damaged by

 7    shelling, he would be summoned to go there and do the repair.  He didn't

 8    dare ask where he was going and when he would be back.

 9       Q.   Did he work on the weekends?

10       A.   At any time.  I've already told you.  At any time of day or

11    night.  And everybody had to work weekends too.

12       Q.   Was your brother ever paid for the work that he performed in

13    Bosanski Samac, Obudovac, or in Odzak?

14       A.   Nobody was paid.  So he couldn't have been paid either.

15       Q.   What about for the materials that had been in his shop after his

16    shop was confiscated?  Was he ever paid for those materials?

17       A.   Never.

18       Q.   What about for his shop?  Was your brother ever paid for his shop

19    after it was confiscated?

20       A.   Never.  His wife, his ex-wife, rather, was the owner of the shop.

21    Whether she got it back, I don't know.  I think she did, actually.  But it

22    is still occupied by some displaced Serbs, refugees who were driven out of

23    somewhere.  I don't know exactly.  Because it's a building with a yard,

24    which was a residential building before it was turned into a business.

25    And when it stopped working for lack of materials, it -- some Serbs moved

Page 8061

 1    in.

 2            MR. WEINER:  Your Honour, would you like to break here or do you

 3    want me to --

 4            JUDGE MUMBA:  If the witness is okay -- is feeling well to

 5    continue, we can continue.

 6            MR. WEINER:

 7       Q.   How are you feeling, Mrs. Drljacic?  Are you feeling all right?

 8       A.   Well, since -- since I'm here, I can't feel well, but I think I'll

 9    make it.

10            JUDGE MUMBA:  Perhaps we can proceed another half hour.

11            MR. WEINER:  All right.  Thank you.

12       Q.   When you said you think that his ex-wife got it back, are you

13    talking about recently or are you talking about back around 1992?

14       A.   I'm talking about a recent period.  Maybe about a year ago.

15    Maybe. I'm not sure.

16       Q.   Okay.  One last question about that.  After your brother's shop

17    was confiscated, was your brother paid any rent by this Milos from Tisina

18    for using your brother's shop?

19       A.   He didn't use it for his own needs.  He did it by his boss's

20    orders.  He was also told where he would work.  This shop was not called

21    the shop of Milos.

22       Q.   No.  Did Milos ever pay your brother rent?

23       A.   No, he never did.

24       Q.   Okay.  Let's move on.  From late April of 1992 through the end of

25    the year and even into 1993, were houses in Bosanski Samac vacant?  Were

Page 8062

 1    apartments or houses vacant?

 2       A.   So this is how it goes:  Men that were of a military age were

 3    immediately called to get arms to defend the Serbian country.  However,

 4    those who already knew what this was all about wanted to resist, and they

 5    tried to leave by swimming across the River Sava.  Those who did not

 6    respond to the draft call and who didn't take up arms had to go to work.

 7    In that case, the family of those that left, that swam across the Sava

 8    River, were rounded up, taken to a camp in the village of Zasavica.

 9    Women, older men, and children were allegedly there, although there were

10    men also amongst the older people.  They were over 60, 70, and maybe 80.

11       Q.   Okay.  I just want to get this clear.  One of the reasons for

12    vacancies is that where men had swum across the Sava River, their families

13    were then removed from their homes and brought to Zasavica; is that

14    correct?

15       A.   That's correct.  That's what happened.  Then these empty houses

16    would be immediately looted.  And the accused are well aware of that.

17       Q.   Before we get on to the looting let's just continue on with the

18    vacancies.  But tell us, what was Zasavica?  You mentioned Zasavica.

19       A.   Zasavica is a Croatian village.  It was completely vacated.  Maybe

20    only five or six Croats were left in the village.  And this entire village

21    was turned into something that they called an isolation area.  Actually,

22    this was a camp in -- where women, children, and as I said, some older

23    people were detain.

24       Q.   You said "they called it an isolation area."  Who was calling it

25    an isolation area?

Page 8063

 1       A.   The Serbs.

 2       Q.   Now, you said it was a camp.  Why would you call it a camp?

 3       A.   What else could it be?  It was a camp.  People were detained

 4    there, and they weren't allowed to leave unless they wanted to be

 5    exchanged.  And if they were exchanged, then they would have to leave

 6    their homes and all their property behind.

 7       Q.   Okay.  Let's continue on with the vacancies.  Were vacancies

 8    caused as a result of arrests?

 9       A.   Certainly.  A house that was vacant or if the families were

10    already moved to the camps, those houses were looted.  If some of the

11    Serbs left their houses or their apartments and moved into a bigger

12    apartment or a better house, then they would behave as if they were in

13    their own property.  They would take the furniture and everything else out

14    of the homes.  When their refugees started arriving from other areas, they

15    would even put these refugees up in the empty houses that were also ruined

16    sometimes because windows and doors would be stripped off and only bare

17    calls would remain.

18       Q.   All right.  We'll get to the looting in a little while.  I just

19    want to first find out why these homes were vacant before the looting

20    occurred.

21            Now, were Muslims or Croats evicted in Bosanski Samac, which

22    resulted in homes becoming vacant?  Were Muslims or Croats evicted in 1992

23    or 1993, resulting in homes becoming vacant?

24       A.   Yes.  Yes.  That's correct.

25       Q.   Do you know anyone who was ever evicted?

Page 8064

 1       A.   I don't know that there are some people that weren't evicted.

 2    Those that weren't evicted are very few and far between.

 3       Q.   Were you evicted from your apartment?

 4       A.   Yes, I was.  I was evicted three months -- three and a half months

 5    before I left Samac.  I was evicted into the street practically.  I didn't

 6    know that the Red Cross had found out about Zasavica, so they couldn't put

 7    any more people there, which is why they couldn't take me to Zasavica, and

 8    I had to live on the street.  I was very sick.

 9            These two men here that I recognised can confirm how I looked, how

10    I felt and what I looked like when I was evicted from my apartment.

11            MR. WEINER:  Mr. Weiner, can we find out whether this was the

12    International Committee of the Red Cross or the national Red Cross of the

13    former Yugoslavia?

14            MR. WEINER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15       Q.   Okay.  Now, you said that the Red Cross -- ma'am, you said that

16    the Red Cross had found out about Zasavica and as a result, they couldn't

17    put any more people there.  Which Red Cross are you referring to, the

18    International Red Cross or the local Red Cross?

19       A.   The International Red Cross from Geneva.

20       Q.   Let's talk about your eviction.  Could you tell the Court the

21    circumstances of your eviction, how it came about?  Please tell the Court.

22       A.   I was at my brother's Teufik.  He had to go to work, and I

23    was cooking for him and myself.  He had a stove, and he had wood,

24    firewood, so we could cook at his place.  Since we will no electricity and

25    water, I would go to his apartment and cook for him there.  I also cooked

Page 8065

 1    for him because he was left alone.  And he couldn't be exchanged because

 2    he had this work obligation.  His wife and his daughter could leave.  They

 3    were not under a work obligation.

 4            So I was at my brother's.  Then two soldiers came.  They were very

 5    young.  I felt really bad for them.  They were armed, and they asked me

 6    what my name was.  I gave them my name, and they said that I should return

 7    to my apartment.

 8            At that moment, my brother came in for breakfast, and I said that

 9    I didn't want to go until Piko, that's what we called him, until Piko came

10    to have lunch.  My brother immediately realised that I had to go, and he

11    gave me a sign with his eyes that I should go, but I kept saying I don't

12    want to go until you come home for lunch.  But then eventually I did go

13    with them.  I can show you what state I was in when I was going towards my

14    house flanked by two armed soldiers.  Actually, they weren't soldiers,

15    they were policemen.

16            Can I show you what condition I was in when I was going towards my

17    apartment?

18            MR. WEINER:  I think what she wants to demonstrate is at one point

19    she could barely walk.  She was bent over.  And she had demonstrated it

20    for me.  I think --

21            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.  Go ahead.

22            MR. WEINER:

23       Q.   Sure, you can demonstrate for the Court your condition at that

24    time.  You can demonstrate for the Court your condition at that time, how

25    you were walking.

Page 8066

 1       A.   I had to use a cane in one hand, but that wasn't enough support.

 2    And because of my great pain, I was holding my other knee, and this is how

 3    I went home flanked by two armed policemen, came to my apartment.

 4            I apologise.  Could you hear what I said?

 5            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.

 6            MR. WEINER:

 7       Q.   Yes.  Everyone could hear what you said.

 8            Okay.  So the two policemen escort you to your apartment.  Was it

 9    a long distance from your brother's apartment to your apartment?

10       A.   The distance was about 150 to 200 metres, maybe a little bit more.

11       Q.   Okay.  So you got home with these two officers.  What did you do

12    when you reached your building?  What happened?

13       A.   We came to my apartment.  I opened the door.  They asked for the

14    key.  I gave it to them.  And that's when they relieved me of my

15    apartment.  I had no right to get it back.

16       Q.   Now, what did they say?  You said they relieved you --

17            JUDGE MUMBA:  Before you go on, Mr. Weiner, can we agree on the

18    demonstration of how the witness was walking?

19            MR. WEINER:  Your Honour, for the record, the witness was standing

20    with her back bent over.  She was went over, and she seemed to be -- she

21    indicated that she had, I think, her left hand holding her knee with her

22    right hand was holding a stick or a cane.

23            JUDGE MUMBA:  Yes.  And that's how she walked all the way to her

24    apartment.

25            MR. WEINER:  Yes.  I apologise for not clarifying the record, Your

Page 8067

 1    Honour.

 2       Q.   Okay.  So you walked to your apartment.  You got there, and they

 3    told you -- they took the keys from you.  What did they say?  Why -- why

 4    couldn't you have your apartment?

 5       A.   That's correct.  They didn't have to say anything to me.  This was

 6    normal procedure.  These two soldiers, they were two young kids.  And I

 7    asked them about the following:  I told them, "See what I have in this

 8    apartment.  Apart from my regular job, I earned a lot of money also from

 9    my -- from being a seamstress.  Would you please let me take my sewing

10    machine with me?"

11       Q.   And did they let you take your sewing machine?

12       A.   They did, but I said that I couldn't carry it.

13       Q.   Okay.  Did someone come and pick up your sewing machine?

14       A.   They asked me, "What do you want?  Do you want us to carry it for

15    you?"  I said, "Well, maybe my brother."  And they said, "Well, where is

16    your brother?"  And I said, "Well, he is doing his work obligation.  Maybe

17    when he's done he could come."  They said, "Well, can he come around

18    7.00?"  I said, "Well, if he's back at 7.00, he will come."  And that's

19    indeed what happened.

20            My brother came with a little wheelbarrow, trailer, and he loaded

21    this sewing machine on it.  He was met by some man while he was walking

22    from his house to my apartment, and this man asked him, "What is your

23    name?"  Because he thought it was a little bit suspicious that he had a

24    sewing machine.  And my brother said, "Teufik Drljacic."  And then this

25    man beat him severely.  And then when this man saw that another man called

Page 8068

 1    Vajzovic Sead was watching him beating my brother, then this man

 2    said, "You monkey, why are you looking at me?  Get away from the window."

 3       Q.   Okay.  Let's --

 4            JUDGE MUMBA:  Maybe we can adjourn at this time.  We will adjourn

 5    and continue the proceedings tomorrow at 14.15 hours.

 6            The Court will rise.

 7                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.18 p.m.,

 8                          to be reconvened on Thursday, the 16th day

 9                          of May, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.