Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8069

1 Thursday, 16 May 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 [The accused Milan Simic not present]

6 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Case number

9 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Milan Simic, Miroslav

10 Tadic, and Simo Zaric.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution is still continuing with

12 examination-in-chief.

13 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Weiner, before you do --

14 MR. LAZAREVIC: I apologise to my learned colleague, but it looks

15 like we have some technical difficulties. One of these earphones are not

16 working well. So if someone from the technical staff could assist us.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think we'll get some assistance from the

18 technical people.

19 It's all right now? Okay. All right. We can proceed.

20 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Weiner, I just have, upon reflection, one

21 sort of explanation, clarification, if you like, that you might seek from

22 the witness. Yesterday we were told that at a certain point in time in

23 Bosanski Samac that the witness in order to -- to walk was sort of bent

24 over, and the witness demonstrated her problem and so on. I'd just like

25 to find out what was the reason for the deterioration in her back, her

Page 8070

1 legs that made this happen, in terms of her general health condition and

2 specifically what she showed and demonstrated to us yesterday.

3 MS. REIDY: Okay. Thank you, Your Honour.

4 WITNESS: Hajrija Drljacic [Resumed]

5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 Examined by Mr. Weiner: [Continued]

7 Q. Good afternoon, Mrs. Drljacic. Judge Williams just asked a

8 question. She said yesterday you were discussing your physical condition,

9 how poor your back had become. And she wanted to know what caused that

10 poor physical condition in your back, in your body that made you walk in

11 this bent over state with a cane or a stick or something. Could you

12 please explain it to the Judge.

13 A. I can. I hadn't been in very good health before either, but the

14 conditions of living had made my condition deteriorate. For two winters I

15 didn't have a bath in warm water. It was sciatica which prevented me from

16 standing up straight or lying down or sitting down without feeling pain.

17 I didn't have hot water because we didn't have electricity. We hadn't

18 been prepared for that, and we hadn't got hold of a stove which uses

19 firewood, and I had nowhere to store the firewood anyway. So I had to

20 make do with what we had, just as everyone else.

21 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

22 MR. WEINER: Okay. I just want to check with all the Defence

23 counsel. Can everyone -- okay. Thank you.

24 Q. All right. Yesterday, ma'am, we left off -- yesterday we left

25 off, and you were telling us how you had been evicted from your apartment

Page 8071

1 by two police officers. They ordered you to unlock the door and they took

2 your keys. Did they tell you to pack your bags or to take your things at

3 that point? What did they tell you?

4 A. I knew what it was all about as soon as they took the keys, and I

5 asked them if I could take one travel bag which I had already prepared.

6 Although I hadn't thought I would be evicted, because I didn't have a son

7 or husband who could have either crossed the river or resist by refusing

8 to accept a rifle. My only family remaining in town was that brother. He

9 was the closest person I had. Those two soldiers, or rather, policemen

10 allowed me to take this travel bag, which I was unable to carry down. And

11 the two of them carried it for me downstairs, and I took with me some sort

12 of trolly in order to be able to take the travel bag to my brother's home.

13 And we had agreed, as I said yesterday, that if my brother came back from

14 his work obligation in time would go there at 7.00 -- or before 7.00 to

15 pick up the sewing machine, and that's what happened.

16 Q. Now, when those two police officers evicted you from your

17 apartment, did they tell you who was going to be moving into your

18 apartment after you left that evening?

19 A. I didn't ask, nor did they tell me.

20 Q. Did someone move into your apartment after you were evicted?

21 A. I haven't the faintest. I don't know. I didn't dare to ask.

22 Q. Do you recall speaking with some investigators from the Tribunal,

23 ma'am, in 1998?

24 A. Yes, yes, in Salt Lake City.

25 Q. And do you recall -- do you recall them -- and just see if this

Page 8072

1 refreshes your recollection -- telling you that -- telling the

2 investigator that is the police officers told you that you had to leave

3 because they wanted to settle a Serb family in your apartment? Does that

4 refresh your recollection, ma'am?

5 A. That was a common occurrence which I didn't even pay much

6 attention to. At the time I was still in a state of shock, and it was

7 normal that as soon as I moved out they would move somebody else in.

8 Q. Okay. Now, you still remained in Bosanski Samac after you got

9 evicted for a few months. During that time, during those few months, two,

10 three months, did you learn that anyone had moved into your apartment?

11 A. I have no idea. I didn't pass by and couldn't see, and I had no

12 one to ask. There was nobody there whom I could have asked. All the

13 people living there were Serbs, and they wouldn't tell me nor would I have

14 dared to ask.

15 Q. All right. Let's take that answer, ma'am. What happened to your

16 Muslim and Croatian neighbours that were living in your building?

17 A. In my stairwell, I'm the only Muslim woman. Bahrija was in some

18 sort of mixed marriage. Although, earlier I never thought about who was

19 Catholic, who was Orthodox, and who was Muslim. That -- that's not the

20 way I was brought up, and I was really amazed how it could have come about

21 that one nation or one confession is suddenly elevated above the others.

22 Until then people entered into mixed marriages, had children. I have two

23 nieces. My sister married a man who was not a Muslim, and he too came

24 from a mixed marriage. His mother was Muslim, and his father was a

25 Hungarian. So who are the children, then? I never thought anything like

Page 8073

1 that would happen.

2 Q. All right. Why don't we try again. What happened to any of the

3 non-Serbian neighbours living in your building or the building next door?

4 What happened to them?

5 A. In the same building but in a different entranceway all vacant

6 apartments were immediately taken over by people of Orthodox, Christian

7 faith who had abandoned smaller apartments to move into larger ones or

8 they had had no apartments of their own before. In any case, they

9 immediately occupied those vacant apartments in the -- in a different

10 entranceway. And in my entranceway, on the fourth floor four Croats

11 resided. Mladjo remained -- stayed behind after I left, whereas two out

12 of the other three apartments were occupied by Serbs.

13 Q. All right. Two questions based on what you just said. First, you

14 indicated that there were vacant apartments that were immediately taken

15 over by Orthodox Christians. Where did these Orthodox Christians or Serbs

16 come from? Were they local people, or did they come from out of town?

17 A. At the time there were only local people or alternatively people

18 from the surrounding villages.

19 Q. And they moved into vacant apartments. What happened to the

20 people that lived in those apartments?

21 A. I couldn't tell you what happened to them individually. In any

22 case, from that other entranceway I know the only man who remained -- I

23 don't remember the name. It was a Muslim man. As for the other men, at

24 the beginning families were not taken into custody or taken away. But

25 after some man had crossed the river, the families were taken away too. I

Page 8074

1 had already mentioned Ruza the Italian, whose son was among the five men

2 who first came into my entranceway.

3 Q. And who what did Ruza do?

4 A. Ruza moved into a two-room apartment. I'm not sure whether it had

5 two or three rooms, but it was previously owned by a Croat.

6 Q. Okay. Now, you were talking about vacancies. What happened in

7 1992 and 1993 to the vacant apartments in Bosanski Samac? What was

8 happening to these vacant apartments?

9 A. At first they were looted, unless somebody was settled in them --

10 both apartments and houses. If somebody had already moved in, they lived

11 there for a while -- maybe until the end. But if those settlers moved on,

12 they would take with them all the things from that apartment or in certain

13 cases those people moved in into apartments which had already been looted.

14 Q. Now, when you say these apartments were looted, tell the Court

15 what type of things were taken from these apartments.

16 A. Everything. Furniture, even clothes, everything. They left only

17 the bare walls.

18 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Weiner, I presume we're going to find out how

19 the witness knows this, being that she never returned to her own apartment

20 to see what had happened there. If you could perhaps ...


22 Q. Now, how soon did this looting or these takings occur? Assuming

23 that the war started in April of 1992, how soon after the war started did

24 these lootings or takings of property from vacant apartments occur?

25 A. As soon as the -- the apartments were evacuated, both apartments

Page 8075

1 and houses.

2 Q. All right. Now, did you ever see anyone taking materials or

3 property, or did you ever see people carrying off or vehicles with

4 property? Tell the Court what you saw.

5 A. It was not uncommon for people to come on a truck, pick up all the

6 property from a house and put it on a truck. When my neighbour -- when my

7 brother Hamza's house was looted, I was an eyewitness. When the things

8 were carried away, my brother tried to save my sewing machine, but he got

9 a beating. Of course it was the Orthodox people who did this. They had

10 all the rights, and we had no right even to ask a question.

11 Q. Now, you said the Orthodox people were the ones who were doing

12 this or looting. Of what ethnic group were the Orthodox people?

13 A. They call themselves Serbs, and I don't dispute that.

14 Q. And the people whose apartments were being looted or whose

15 property were being -- was being taken, of what ethnic group were they?

16 A. Muslims and Croats.

17 Q. What about Serbs? Were any Serb homes being looted and property

18 being taken from them?

19 A. Of course not. On the contrary. The looted things were carried

20 into their apartments or the apartments which they intended to occupy.

21 Q. Now, when you saw the people doing this, were these people in

22 uniform? Were these locals? Were these civilians? Tell us about who was

23 doing this?

24 A. I think it was mostly local people or people from the surrounding

25 villages, at the beginning. Later, after I had left, I heard that Serb

Page 8076

1 refugees had started to arrive, and I don't know what happened later but I

2 heard that those people were forced to move into empty houses, which were

3 in certain cases damaged or demolished.

4 Q. Do you need a glass of water, ma'am?

5 A. [In English] I have. Thank you.

6 Q. Now, you said later after you left. Are you talking about 1994

7 that you heard this was happening?

8 A. That's right [Interpretation] That's right. When we were able to

9 contact the people who remained in Samac throughout, we learned about the

10 Serb refugees and what happened.

11 Q. Now --

12 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Weiner, before you do, again just as a matter

13 of clarification here. I wonder whether the witness could tell us how she

14 knows that property that was taken from apartments or homes owned by

15 non-Serbs, how she knows that this property was later, according to page

16 7, line 19: "these looted things were carried into there," i.e., from the

17 text here -- the context "Serb apartments or the apartments they intended

18 to occupy." Maybe the witness could tell us how she knows that the

19 property went from non-Serb apartments into Serb apartments.


21 Q. Did you hear the Judge's question, ma'am?

22 A. I was an eyewitness to that. I apologise.

23 Q. There's no need to apologise.

24 You saw some of this. Did any of your neighbours or colleagues

25 during 1992 or 1993 -- did any of your Muslim or Croatian neighbours or

Page 8077

1 colleagues see this same thing happening?

2 A. All of us were eyewitnesses to that, including, I believe, the

3 accused here present. I not only believe that, I am certain that they saw

4 this with their own eyes as well as I did, and I mean the accused.

5 Q. And why do you say that, ma'am?

6 A. I say that just because it -- it should grate on their ears too.

7 Time has come for the truth to be told.

8 Q. All right. Let's -- let me -- let me ask you a few questions on

9 that. When these things were happening, these -- the property being

10 looted from apartments, you said trucks were being used. So people were

11 carrying furniture out on trucks. Was this being done in the wide open

12 daylight or in the secret of the night?

13 A. It happened in broad daylight. Nobody was trying to hide anything

14 from anyone.

15 Q. And was this happening all over town or just on your street?

16 A. All over town. Even in villages. Women from Samac would go

17 around villages, loot, and bring the looted things back to Samac.

18 Q. Did you ever see them carrying these looted goods back into Samac?

19 A. They didn't hide anything. Nothing was hidden. A concrete

20 example: A neighbour of mine that lived in the yard next door -- I was

21 very surprised about this. She had a rope attached from the cinema to her

22 window. And one day she would only wash curtains and she would dry them

23 on these ropes. The next day she would only wash, say, knitted sweaters

24 or other kinds of handiwork, doilies. And these doilies were made with a

25 lot of effort by others, because she never had them before. This didn't

Page 8078

1 happen once. This was going on day after day after day that she would

2 wash curtains one day, then this handiwork the next, and these doilies.

3 This handiwork was very valuable.

4 Q. And if I understand your answer correctly, she didn't have this

5 property prior to the war; is that correct?

6 A. She couldn't have these huge quantities. She could have had as

7 much as I made for myself. But she couldn't have had two or three whole

8 lines of these objects, and this was happening on more than one occasion.

9 This didn't happen just on one day.

10 Q. Now, you talked about houses being looted. What about shops or

11 stores? Were they looted in Bosanski Samac?

12 A. The stores were looted on the same day. They were emptied; I

13 don't know how. My brother was in a store. He worked at the ironworks.

14 And he came to work in the morning. But those areas where people didn't

15 work, everything was taken out of those. For example, out of the

16 department store, which was closed. I don't know who took all the goods

17 out of these stores though. For example, certain machines from factories

18 were taken out, and they were driven to Serbia. I also know that cattle

19 was loaded on trucks, and it was taken to Serbia. All the more valuable

20 things were taken to Serbia, and that is how many people in Serbia got

21 rich. And those people weren't rich before. None of us was really rich

22 before. But today people who had nothing have a lot.

23 Q. Now, as a follow-up question, ma'am: How do you know these things

24 were taken to Serbia? You said these things were loaded on trucks. So

25 there was cattle or machinery from the factories. How do you know it went

Page 8079

1 to Serbia?

2 A. I know. Everybody else knows; even those present here, the

3 accused. It might even be the case that one of them drove those goods to

4 Serbia.

5 Q. But did you ever see the license plates on these trucks that were

6 leaving town with the goods?

7 A. I never paid attention to the license plates. They also took our

8 cars. So they could have changed the license plates and used whichever

9 ones they wanted. But I never paid attention to license plates. All cars

10 belonging to Croats and Muslims were taken away, allegedly because they

11 were needed for military purposes. But people recognised their cars, and

12 they also recognised the people driving their own cars.

13 Q. All right. We'll get to that in a few minutes. But let's stay on

14 with the looting. Who did the work? Who did the removal of all of

15 these -- all of these pieces of machinery and the cattle? Who did the

16 work of actually transporting this, carrying it? Who did that work?

17 A. Very frequently this was done by the Muslims who were -- who had

18 to carry out work -- forced labour for a Serb. A lot of people -- a lot

19 of -- very often people that were under a work obligation, they were told

20 this was a work obligation but this was forced labour.

21 Q. Okay. Now, these people who did the work, did you ever speak to

22 them about what type of work they were doing, these Muslims and Croats

23 that were doing this work, carrying these items out, the machinery and the

24 cattle? Did you speak to them during 1992 and 1993?

25 A. You mean the Serbs?

Page 8080

1 Q. No. The Muslims and Croats that were doing this forced labour,

2 did you get a chance to speak to them and talk to them about the work they

3 were doing? Just yes or no.

4 A. No, I didn't have to ask. Everybody talked what was happening to

5 their nearest and dearest. And then people would spread this information,

6 so we knew what was going on. This was not a secret.

7 Q. No. No. I'm not asking if it was a secret. Did you speak to

8 people who were doing some of this work? Did you speak to any of please

9 Muslims or Croats that were doing some of this work?

10 A. Of course. As I said, they all worked. Everybody did something,

11 and they all talked about what they had to do. I can't -- it's hard to

12 say specifically who did what, but everybody did whatever they were

13 ordered, whatever was necessary. They had no opportunity to choose what

14 they were doing.

15 Q. All right. Let's just talk generally for a moment. The people

16 who were carrying these goods out, the people who told you how they were

17 carrying pieces of machinery out, putting it on trucks, bringing cattle

18 out, putting that on trucks, did they tell you that it was being

19 transported to Serbia?

20 A. Yes. I can say specifically, for example, people from Samac had

21 to load on the orders from Odzak things like furniture for the bedroom or

22 the living room, and I was an eyewitness. When Pancir's mother asked to

23 have from Odzak taken for her brother something that was looted from a

24 Muslim, her brother, however, was a member of the Army of

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina -- he was allegedly a member. He was not a detainee.

Page 8081

1 Q. But you were present when Pancir's mother --

2 A. He was detained in Gradacac.

3 Q. But you were present when Pancir's mother made the request some

4 good to be looted from a Muslim home in Odzak?

5 A. Yes, I was. I was there when she was yelling after the people who

6 were on the truck. She said, "Bring me this and that for my Jovo." He is

7 detained. He's in a camp. He's being -- he's detained by the Muslims.

8 But as I said, he was actually a member of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

9 Q. Now, Pancir's mother, are you referring to Mile Pancir, Mile,

10 nicknamed Pancir?

11 A. Yes. I apologise. I didn't remind you that this was Mile

12 Pancir.

13 Q. And of what ethnic group did she belong to?

14 A. Serb.

15 Q. Now, ma'am, we talked a few minutes ago about shops being looted.

16 Did you have a brother whose nickname was Hamza?

17 A. Yes. When the war broke out, he was in the shop. And then the

18 next time he came to work, he worked for another month, a month and a half

19 until he was moved out of there.

20 Q. Let's -- I want to ask you a few other questions about him, not

21 about his employment. Did he have a home -- actually, what was his name?

22 We know his nickname was Hamza. What was his full name?

23 A. His name was Salih Drljacic, but everybody knows him as Hamza.

24 Q. Now, did you brother own a home that had a grocery store on the

25 first floor that he was renting out? Is that true?

Page 8082

1 A. Yes. He had a house and on the first floor there was a store that

2 he was renting out. And this store was open until that night, and then it

3 was closed.

4 Q. All right. This store that he had, who did he rent it out to?

5 A. He rented it out to a man who owned several stores in Samac. He

6 also had a store in the part of the house that belonged to Miro Brko.

7 Whether he was the owner of that store or he just rented it out, I don't

8 know, but the store was either in Miro Brko's home -- house or in the

9 house right next to it.

10 Q. Now, when you say he had a store, what kind of store are we

11 talking about? Is this a grocery store? Is this a hardware store, a

12 furniture store? What type of store did he have in your brother's home?

13 A. These two stores that I mentioned were grocery stores.

14 Q. All right. Now -- and of what ethnic group did the man who was

15 renting out the grocery store from your brother belong to? Just what

16 ethnic group?

17 A. A Croat. He was killed in the first days.

18 Q. All right. What happened to his store that was located in your

19 brother's house in April of 1992? What happened to that store in that --

20 during that month? And we're talking about the time after the war

21 started.

22 A. The store that was located in my brother's house -- this is what

23 happened: The Serbs came, made a list what was located in the store at

24 that moment, and then they took everything away.

25 Q. Did your brother or anyone else give them permission to take these

Page 8083

1 goods in the grocery store?

2 A. He wasn't even asked.

3 Q. You said they made a list. Did they leave a receipt or leave a

4 note for the owner -- or for your brother?

5 A. Nothing. They left absolutely nothing.

6 Q. Now, you said your brother worked in another shop, your brother,

7 Hamza, who owned this store. He worked at a different store; is that

8 correct?

9 A. Yes. He worked at the company called Jeljezara, the ironworks,

10 and he rented this store in his house. His son's wife worked in that

11 store.

12 Q. Okay. Now, let's talk about your brother's job just for a few

13 minutes. Did he hold a position in the shop that he worked, at the

14 ironworks? Was he a manager? Was he a director?

15 A. My brother worked for Bosanka for 44 years. In this store he

16 worked several years as a manager.

17 Q. So he was a manager of the Bosanka store? Is that how you

18 pronounce it?

19 A. He was the manager of the store.

20 Q. Okay. And what did they sell at that shop or that store?

21 A. They were selling agricultural equipment, smaller machines for

22 agricultural needs.

23 Q. And did something happen to his job in June of 1992? Tell the

24 Court.

25 A. He was replaced. He was replaced by Nada Vukovic. She was the

Page 8084

1 sister of the person whom we called Majmun, last name also Vukovic. Before

2 my brother was fired, his daughter and two children whose husband swam

3 across the river and Hamza's wife, Sevla, they were all rounded up and

4 taken to the camp. He remained for another month, month and a half, and

5 he was working. But when he was fired, he was also taken to the camp,

6 where his wife and children were.

7 Q. Why was he fired after 40 or more years? Was it 44 years working

8 there and he was a manager. Why did they fire him?

9 A. He was Muslim, and he wasn't allowed to work. He wasn't allowed

10 to work for salary. He was being paid while he worked there, but he

11 wasn't allowed to do so any more.

12 Q. The person who replaced him -- the woman who replaced him, of what

13 ethnic group did he belong, Nada Vukovic?

14 A. She was an Orthodox Christian from Croatia, just like her brother

15 Vukovic. They were from some village in Croatia, somewhere around

16 Vinkovci.

17 Q. Now, were any other Muslims or Croats fired from their jobs after

18 the war began in 1992, in April 1992?

19 A. Nobody was allowed to work for salary ever again. They had to

20 leave all their jobs, all of them.

21 Q. When you say "they" or "nobody," people of what ethnic group are

22 you referring to were fired from their jobs or were not going to be paid

23 any more?

24 A. When I say "nobody," I'm referring to Muslims or Croats. When I

25 say "they," this refers to the Serbs.

Page 8085

1 Q. But you said "they had to leave all their jobs, all of them." The

2 Serbs had to leave their jobs or the Muslims or Croats had to leave --

3 A. Muslims. Muslims and Croats had to leave their jobs. I

4 apologise. I got a little bit confused.

5 Q. Nothing to apologise about. Don't worry.

6 All right. We were talking about property that was being taken

7 from Muslims and Croats, and you mentioned vehicles were taken. Can

8 you -- you started to talk about that before. Could you tell the Court

9 what happened to the vehicles that were owned by the Muslims and Croats in

10 April of 1992 after the war began.

11 A. All cars belonging to Muslims and Croats were immediately taken

12 away from them, allegedly because of military needs. But people saw

13 others driving their cars privately, in their private lives. Serbs were

14 driving Muslim and Croat cars, cars belonging to Muslims and Croats, in

15 their everyday lives, even though these cars were requisitioned because of

16 military needs.

17 Q. What about the cars owned by Serbs, the Serb citizens of Bosanski

18 Samac? Were their vehicles taken or requisitioned?

19 A. Not at all. They kept their cars, and they also got whichever car

20 they wanted that belonged to a Croat or a Muslim.

21 Q. Let's continue on with the services in Bosanski Samac during the

22 summer of 1992. Was there still a local Red Cross? You mentioned earlier

23 that the local Red Cross gave bread and milk out the first two weeks after

24 the war started. During the summer of 1992, was there still a local Red

25 Cross in Bosanski Samac?

Page 8086

1 A. While I was there, it was -- it was functioning. I believe there

2 is still a Red Cross. And we were getting things for free. I also tried

3 to go to the Red Cross and get help.

4 Q. That's what I was going to ask you. In the summer of 1992, middle

5 part of the summer, did you hear that the Red Cross had received some

6 goods, some food?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And did you ever go to the Red Cross and ask for some?

9 A. At that time the Red Cross was distributing food at the old

10 hotel. The son of Cviko Bosic was the one distributing it. I heard from

11 many Muslims that they received food, and that is why I also went there,

12 to try to get some myself.

13 Q. And tell -- and when you went there, did you see Cviko Bozic's

14 son, when you went to the local Red Cross?

15 A. I went into his office, and he asked me what I wanted. I said I

16 also came to get some food, to get a parcel. That's what I said. That's

17 how we called it. We called it "parcels." And he said, "There is nothing

18 here. Alija has some. Why don't you go there?" And I had no further

19 comment. I went out, and I never went back to ask for more food.

20 Q. When he said, "Alija has some. Why don't you go there," who was

21 he referring to?

22 A. The then-president of Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Alija

23 Izetbegovic.

24 Q. Continuing on with services in Bosanski Samac, let's move into

25 late 1992, early 1993. Did you ever have to see a doctor? You talked

Page 8087

1 about the problem you were having with your back. In early 1993, did you

2 ever go see a doctor in Bosanski Samac?

3 A. I had to. My condition was such that I needed medical help. The

4 doctor received me. He talked to me. And then he said, "Unfortunately we

5 have no medication. We can't help you," although I knew that there had

6 been some donations received and certain doctors gave medicines out

7 without a prescription and without any payments. I, however, didn't get

8 any medication from this doctor, even though there were medications

9 available from donations.

10 Q. You said that there were medications available and some doctors

11 did give them out. I assume gave them out to Muslims and Croats. Did any

12 doctor ever give you any medication at about that same time?

13 A. At the health centre, nobody gave me any medication. However,

14 Dr. Sisic must have seen me on the street, and he asked my brother

15 furtively not -- and he asked my brother not to tell anyone. He sent me

16 two packets of pills. I don't know what they were for, but I took them

17 anyway. But they didn't help. Maybe I needed something else. He tried

18 to help me, and I -- for that, I will be forever grateful. There were

19 very few honest people, and he was one of them. He was a Serb.

20 Q. Are you all right to continue, ma'am? Are you okay?

21 All right. Let's go on a little bit more. How many houses of

22 worship were there in Bosanski Samac in April of 1992?

23 A. There was an Orthodox church, a Catholic church, and one mosque,

24 so three places of worship altogether.

25 Q. Now, you previously talked about the mosque, and you indicated

Page 8088

1 that it was blown up apparently in the summer of 1992. You mentioned that

2 yesterday. Is that correct?

3 A. That's correct. It was a very strong explosion. Pieces that

4 were -- belonged to the base ended up on the roof of the department store.

5 Also, a lot of glass was broken, and the roofs from the neighbouring

6 houses were also damaged, and tiles on the roofs of surrounding houses

7 were also quite damaged from the explosion, so that a lot of people had to

8 do work on their houses after that.

9 Q. And was the mosque completely destroyed after that explosion?

10 A. Completely. Some other Muslims, including myself, tried to use

11 some remains of the wood -- some of the wood that remained from the

12 church, so we could use this for firewood. To my great surprise, grass

13 has appeared very quickly on that location, and I was wondering how this

14 could be because there -- a building had been on this location for such a

15 long time and how could grass grow on a place that was dead for so long,

16 because a house was upon it, a mosque.

17 Q. You mentioned that there was also a Catholic church in Bosanski

18 Samac. At the end of 1992 -- in a period from the end of 1992 to early

19 1993, did something happen to the Catholic church in Bosanski Samac? Tell

20 the Judges.

21 A. Yes. It was dismantled manually, piece by piece, because between

22 the Catholic church and the Orthodox church, there was just a short

23 distance. They were across the street from each other. The Orthodox

24 church was in the immediate vicinity therefore, and in order not to damage

25 it they took months to dismantle the Catholic church manually. I was an

Page 8089

1 eyewitness to that. I passed along that street while this was going on. I

2 passed by it two or three times.

3 Q. During those times that you passed by, what did you see? How did

4 it look? Was it changing each time over those two months?

5 A. Certainly. Less and less remained of it. However, people

6 continued to come there and take away pieces of wood to use as firewood.

7 Only Muslims and Croats, of course. And we were allowed to do that.

8 Orthodox people were well supplied with firewood because they felled Croat

9 forests. They cut down and cleared Croat forests all the time. And all

10 we had were leftovers, leftovers of firewood.

11 Q. In addition to the people who were taking the firewood, who was

12 doing the work dismantling the Catholic church at the end of 1992 and in

13 early 1993? Who was doing that work dismantling that church?

14 A. All menial tasks were done exclusively by Muslims, and I believe

15 they dismantled the Catholic church too, on the orders of Serbs of

16 course. Since it was a time-consuming job, they didn't want to do it

17 themselves. Maybe they had a hand in it too, but I think it was mainly

18 the Muslims who did the dismantling.

19 Q. When you say you believe it was the Muslims who did the

20 dismantling, are you talking about the people who were on forced labour?

21 A. That's right. That's right. People who were doing forced labour,

22 I believe this was them who dismantled the Catholic church. They may have

23 even filmed the process to have Muslims on tape doing this job and later

24 spread stories that it was the Muslims who did it. Later a teacher from

25 Serbia came and said, "I can understand that Croats escaped by crossing

Page 8090

1 the river, but I don't understand how they took dynamite with them in

2 order to blow up the mosque. You see how well they were prepared."

3 Q. Well, let's just take it one step at a time. So we talked about

4 the Muslims on forced labour were the persons who dismantled the church.

5 Did they do this voluntarily, or were they ordered to do this?

6 A. Well, who would do it voluntarily? Is there anyone who would do

7 forced labour voluntarily? I don't know such a person.

8 Q. Did you have any conversations with persons doing forced labour

9 who told you about having to dismantle the church?

10 A. Well, I can't tell you the names of people who worked on the

11 church. I know that it was done by Muslims on somebody's orders; I don't

12 know whose. The accused are better placed to know who issued those words,

13 and I suppose they too destroyed the church. Because it was hard work.

14 You had to crack the concrete blocks piece by piece.

15 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Weiner, I wonder whether we could find out

16 from the witness -- she mentions on page 21, line 21 that they -- and I

17 believe she's meaning Serbian people -- they may have even filmed the

18 process to have Muslims on tape doing this job, i.e., the dismantling of

19 the Catholic church. I'm just wondering whether the witness heard that in

20 fact there was a film made or whether this is just a speculation on the

21 part of the witness.


23 Q. Ma'am, you heard the Judge's question. I know previously,

24 yesterday you spoke about filming the people in the lines getting food and

25 milk, and it was shown on television Belgrade. Was something similar

Page 8091

1 done? Did you see any filming or cameras or did you hear about it, or is

2 it just some speculation that it might have been done? Please tell the

3 Court.

4 A. I don't think there were any speculations, but I know that they

5 used various footage involving Muslims. I saw on that site many people

6 who had come there to collect wood, and I don't think they belonged to the

7 group of people who did so of their own free will, as I did.

8 Q. All right. Let's -- let's continue to take that step by step.

9 You said they used various footage including the Muslims. So we need some

10 clarification. I'm not certain about what your answer is. Let's take it

11 slowly. Were you aware of any cameras or photography of the dismantle --

12 that was occurring during the dismantling of that church?

13 A. I didn't see it with my own eyes, but I heard that footage was

14 made of all the people who performed labour, and I believe -- I suppose

15 that includes people who dismantled the church. I don't think -- I can't

16 believe that the church was an exception to that. They filmed Muslims

17 taking property out of houses, probably to -- to present it in a different

18 light and insinuate that it was the Muslims who looted.

19 Q. Now, when you say "they filmed," who are you talking about?

20 A. Serbs did the filming. Muslims did not dare to show that they

21 owned a camera, a still camera or a video camera. People who were once

22 detained did not come back home.

23 Q. Okay.

24 A. In most case, they were later exchanged, except for those who were

25 killed.

Page 8092

1 Q. Okay. A few further questions. You talked about people taking

2 firewood, taking wood home from the dismantling site for firewood. And

3 you also said that there were people there who were taking wood for

4 fireplaces but they weren't doing it voluntarily. Were you saying that

5 some people -- some people were doing certain -- some people were ordered

6 to take wood to bring to others as part of a forced labour-type

7 assignment?

8 A. You did not understand me correctly. We who picked up pieces of

9 wood, we did so to use it as firewood. Serbs didn't need to do that,

10 because they were well supplied with firewood. They were given whole

11 trailers full of firewood, and they cut down whole forests. They didn't

12 need to go and collect pieces of wood. That -- that's something that only

13 we did.

14 Q. And that's because you weren't given quantities of wood -- meaning

15 you -- the Muslims and Croats weren't given quantities of wood; is that

16 correct?

17 A. We didn't get anything, and we had not prepared for the situation

18 that eventually occurred. Not a single Muslim had prepared themselves for

19 what happened. We didn't get hold of appropriate stoves which use

20 firewood. We would gather in the rare places where there were working

21 stoves to cook something or to bake bread.

22 Q. All right. One final question: You made a statement earlier

23 while we were talking about the church about some -- about a story that

24 was made up about the mosque that someone -- that people -- one was

25 saying, "How could the Croats try and carry explosives on their back?"

Page 8093

1 Could you explain that again -- "and swim across the river." Were they

2 trying to say that the Croats had blown up the mosque in Bosanski Samac?

3 A. Yes, that was the claim of one teacher, a man from Serbia who had

4 worked in Samac for a long time as a teacher, teaching sciences. His name

5 was Kolev, K-o-l-e-v.

6 Q. And could you just tell the Court again what his claim was.

7 A. He claimed that it was the Croats who had blown up the mosque.

8 However, there remained a trace of the fuse, and everybody could see where

9 it led. Everybody could see from where the mosque was blown up. And he

10 was trying to convince everyone that it was the Croats who did it.

11 Q. Did you go to the scene where the mosque had been blown up and

12 disappeared after this occurred?

13 A. I told you. I went to pick up firewood.

14 Q. And were you able to see this fuse?

15 A. No, I didn't follow such things. But other Muslims saw it, and I

16 believe they also knew the name of the man who did it.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner, I want to know how much more time.

18 MR. WEINER: Not much. Less than an hour.



21 Q. Let's move on to the last part of our testimony. Exchanges. Were

22 exchanges occurring in Bosanski Samac during 1992 and 1993, ma'am?

23 A. From Bosanski Samac, exchanges took place frequently.

24 Q. Now --

25 A. At least until I left.

Page 8094

1 Q. Now, did you ever see people off before they were exchanged,

2 ma'am?

3 A. I followed every exchange that I knew about; however, they --

4 there were exchanges that I did not know about. Thus, for instance, one

5 year before my brother and I left, his wife and child left. The eldest

6 brother's wife and son who had been brought over from Batkovici left. I

7 didn't know about these exchanges, so I didn't manage to see them off.

8 Q. All right. Let's just talk about the ones that you had seen.

9 Where did you go to see people off, when you said you followed them.

10 Where did you go to see these people off before they were exchanged?

11 A. The assembly point for exchanges was the schoolyard of the primary

12 school and of the secondary school centre, the playground outside, and

13 that was where I came to see off my fellow townsfolk.

14 Q. And did you see any of the defendants there at every one of those

15 exchanges?

16 A. Miro Brko was there at every exchange.

17 Q. When you say Miro Brko, are you referring to the accused Miroslav

18 Tadic?

19 A. Yes. Yes. I mean him.

20 Q. And was there anyone else with him coordinating those exchanges?

21 A. Of course. There were the people who organised the exchange.

22 Most often he would be there. Those people who had the opportunity

23 contacted him beforehand. And if they had money to offer him, they would

24 get priority.

25 Q. Okay.

Page 8095

1 A. They didn't care who was left behind

2 Q. No. Let's -- let's go to the people first who were coordinating

3 the exchanges. You said you used to see Miroslav Tadic at these

4 exchanges. Do you know a man by the name of Sveto Vasovic?

5 A. Yes. We called him Obrvas, meaning "thick eyebrows."

6 Q. And did you ever see Sveto Vasovic at these exchanges -- or at

7 these gatherings prior to the exchanges?

8 A. Every time that I was there he or the Obrvas person would read

9 out their list. And according to that list, people would get on the bus.

10 Q. Did the accused Miroslav Tadic ever read out the list when they

11 gathered for these exchanges?

12 A. Yes, yes. He read out the lists, and people would get on the bus

13 as their names were called out.

14 Q. Now, you talked about people taking money in Bosanski Samac to

15 have their name placed on the exchange list. Who was taking the money to

16 have their names -- to have -- who was taking the money and placing names

17 on the exchange lists? Who was taking those bribes?

18 A. That was an open secret. Everybody could go and see Miro Brko

19 and grease his palm, or they could go to Obrvas and pay him. I didn't

20 even know about this before I left. If I had known, maybe I would have

21 gone to see them too.

22 Q. When you say "Obrvas," you're referring to Sveto Vasovic?

23 A. Sveto, yes. I'm sorry about this. We always use nicknames in

24 Samac, and I don't always remember to say his name instead of his

25 nickname. But I have already confirmed that this was his nickname. If I

Page 8096

1 say "Obrvas," I mean Sveto Vasovic; and if I say "Miro Brko," it means

2 Miroslav Tadic.

3 Q. Now, you said that you learned after you were exchanged about

4 people bribing Sveto Vasovic and Miroslav Tadic. Did anyone tell you

5 after they'd been exchanged -- were people telling you that they had paid

6 to get exchanged?

7 A. Yes. Yes, that's right. People paid money in order to be able to

8 get out. I can tell you specifically. The first people to be taken out

9 by Miro Tadic were Croats, such as the family of the director of Mladost

10 company. He drove his family personally in his own car for 5.000

11 Deutschmark. Those were the first people who got out. Whereas, we others

12 were unable to leave Samac at all.

13 Q. Who received the 5.000 Deutschmarks and drove the family of Juro

14 Krajinovic out of Bosanski Samac? Who you said "he." Who was that?

15 A. That was Miro Brko.

16 Q. Now, I used the name Juro Krajinovic. Was Juro Krajinovic the

17 director of the Mladost company? Is he the person you're talking about?

18 A. He used to be the director of the finishing process -- finishing

19 and processing at the Mladost company.

20 Q. Now, you said the defendant or the accused Miroslav Tadic drove

21 this family out. Did he also drive Juro Krajinovic out of Bosanski

22 Samac at that time?

23 A. Juro Krajinovic was detained together with other Croats. And I

24 don't know whether he left at the same time as his family, but I know for

25 a fact that his family was taken out of Samac by Miro Brko.

Page 8097

1 Q. Did any members of your --

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that we have

4 already accepted the practice that when the evidence is hearsay, the

5 witness should try to explain in greater detail the source of their

6 information. Now, the question is being asked where she got this

7 information for the first time.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I answer this? From everyone in

9 Zasavica. And Miroslav Tadic knows that the daughter of my sister was

10 married in Zasavica and that Pero and Juro were their other close

11 relatives.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: You mean all the people in Zasavica told you that

13 the money was being paid to Miroslav Tadic.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Juro told his friends. His friends

15 told all the rest of us.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.


18 Q. Before we break --

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can we take a break now, please.

20 I'm not feeling very well.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. We'll take a break and continue at 16.15

22 hours.

23 --- Recess taken at 3.42 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 4.34 p.m.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

Page 8098

1 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, at the break the witness became ill --

2 or just before the break, while on the stand she had some sort of stress

3 or chest pains. She was brought to the witness room. The nurse was

4 called. Her blood pressure was high. They took her blood pressure a

5 second time, and it had decreased somewhat, but it was the nurse's

6 recommendation that she should not go on. It was victim/witness's

7 recommendation that she should not go on, and she didn't feel well and

8 didn't want to continue. Our plan was to put her on initially probably

9 another 45 minutes today and then cross-examination. As a result, we

10 don't have anyone else lined up to testify today. There are some

11 administrative matters.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. All right. Then we'll continue testimony

13 hopefully on Tuesday at 14.15 hours. We hope that she'll be -- she will

14 have recovered by then.

15 Yes. The Trial Chamber was informed that the Prosecution wanted

16 to raise some matters regarding witnesses.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. I'm about to do that. But may I just take

18 this opportunity if I can to just present another document. Perhaps it's

19 best if we deal with it now. It's the document referred to the other day

20 by Mr. Esad Dagovic. It should be put under seal, because it's the

21 document that had his address on it, if you recall. He was concerned

22 about that. It was one of the documents that he produced showing his

23 employment in Croatia.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think that was briefly discussed.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

Page 8099

1 JUDGE MUMBA: That can be produced under seal.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: I think it's -- I believe it's to be P60 ter ID --

3 P60 ter. So if I could just produce the original now.


5 MR. DI FAZIO: And ask that it be dealt with. Then I'll move on

6 to the main matter that I wanted to raise with the Chamber.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: So for that document and all the other ones that

8 came in a group, are yet translated into English.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: I believe not.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Not yet.

11 [Prosecution counsel confer]

12 MR. DI FAZIO: The translations have been requested and should be

13 with us next week.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. I wondered -- maybe the Defence counsels

15 wish to look at it, if the usher can show them.

16 MR. ZECEVIC: No, Your Honours. We don't.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. Thank you.

18 So can we just have confirmation of the number, please, as an

19 exhibit.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. This will replace the

21 photocopy provided and will remain as P60/ter under seal -- thank you --

22 ID for now. Thanks.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, essentially what I want to

25 do is to ask for a degree of more flexibility in the manner in which we

Page 8100

1 deal with witnesses. And by that I mean whether they give their evidence

2 in the normal, usual manner and the provisions of 92 -- and whether they

3 give their evidence under the provisions of 92 bis.

4 First of all, I want to reiterate and affirm again that the

5 Prosecution has heard everything that the Chamber says about the use of

6 the provisions of 92 bis and reiterate that we are doing everything we can

7 to utilise the provisions of 92 bis. Indeed as I speak, Ms. Reidy is down

8 in Bosnia taking statements. And Mr. Weiner's turn will come soon to --

9 to carry out the same exercise. But I -- I am concerned that if we're not

10 given more flexibility in the -- with respect to who gives their evidence

11 under 92 bis and who doesn't, we may come to a bit of a grinding halt.

12 To assist, I've provided the Court with a -- a list of witnesses,

13 which is extracted from that other list that I provided to you when I

14 initially made submissions to you on 92 bis, and a calendar, which is with

15 Ms. Atanasio. And I wonder if copies of the calendar and that list could

16 be given to you. I provided the same to Defence counsel. This is just to

17 assist my submissions to you.


19 MR. DI FAZIO: You can see that this witness, number 1, is Hajrija

20 Drljacic. She's currently giving her evidence.

21 I should also add that this is not an order of witnesses. It's

22 just a grouping of witnesses.


24 MR. DI FAZIO: It's not the order in which I intend to call them

25 or the Prosecution intends to produce them.

Page 8101


2 MR. DI FAZIO: Now, the numbers 1 to 6 are the ones the Chamber

3 has agreed can be dealt with in the normal fashion, that is, without the

4 use of 92 bis. And the remainder, you can see from 7 to 18 are witnesses

5 that the Chamber has indicated ought to be dealt with under the provisions

6 of Rule 92 bis.

7 20 and 21 are worth -- I should mention now. Stipo Cerninski does

8 not witness to give evidence and does not wish to attend at the -- at the

9 Tribunal to provide evidence. I must say that that's not a matter that

10 troubles the Prosecution, but I should point out that during the pre-trial

11 proceedings it was the order of a differently constituted Chamber that he

12 actually give evidence. And so the Prosecution is obliged to call him.

13 However, I want to make it clear to this Chamber that as far as the

14 Prosecution is concerned, it -- it has no particular reason to call him

15 and doesn't think that he's going to advance the Prosecution's case

16 considerably. And secondly, as I said, he doesn't want to come. I leave

17 that matter with the Chamber, but that is the situation. We will not --


19 MR. DI FAZIO: -- be troubled if you revoke that order and we

20 don't have to call him.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Secondly, Omer Nalic, he was a gentleman I visited

23 recently in a nearby country. I proofed him, took some instructions from

24 him, and the Prosecution does not intend to call him. And it feels that

25 there's not much that he can offer the Prosecution case. So there's one

Page 8102

1 more witness that we do not intend to call.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: And then at the bottom, you can -- they speak for

4 themselves. You know who Ewa Tabeau is and the two other witnesses

5 concerned.


7 MR. DI FAZIO: So the situation we face in the next two weeks or

8 so -- or three weeks or so or possibly four weeks or so, you can see from

9 the calendar.

10 Next week we will be finishing with this particular witness.

11 Ironically, the delay is going to assist the Prosecution, because I feared

12 that what would happen was that we would start with Mr. Paradzik earlier

13 on Tuesday and then Mr. Fitozovic would turn up on the Thursday unproofed.

14 Somehow Mr. Paradzik would have to fill in three days, and I was worried

15 about that. But that now looks as if that worry might be -- might not

16 come to realisation because of the delay that we've experienced.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. With the current witness.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: But at the end of the next week -- at the end of

19 next week, after Mr. Paradzik has finished his evidence, the Prosecution

20 won't be in a position to offer any more witnesses to be dealt with in the

21 usual way, because Fitozovic comes in on that day. And I've just heard to

22 my consternation that there's some problem with that as well. He's a

23 witness who will definitely need proofing and, and proofing for some

24 time. He's a -- I know that he's a witness of some interest to the

25 Defence.

Page 8103

1 And then you see for the following week -- that's just my

2 estimation of how long Mr. Fitozovic will take. And it's really an

3 estimation that's made in ignorance, because I just don't know how long

4 the Defence are going to be with him. Four days is just -- I must confess

5 a figure pulled out of a hat. Without having proofed him properly, I

6 can't tell you precisely how long his examination-in-chief will be, and I

7 certainly can't even begin to estimate how long his cross-examination will

8 be. But assuming it's something like the projection that I've got on this

9 calendar, we'd start to call Subasic can the towards the end of that week,

10 and he would go into the early part of June.

11 If, as I hoped, Todorovic starts to give his evidence around the

12 10th of June -- that's what would be ideal from the Prosecution's point of

13 view -- the 10th of June or thereabouts, there's bound to be a period of

14 time, I would say, where we'll find ourselves unable to produce a witness

15 to be -- to be -- well, unable to produce a witness.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: On Todorovic, the Chamber was expecting him to start

17 on the 3rd.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: He arrives here on the 3rd. He arrives here on the

19 3rd of June, I hope. I hope that he would arrive here on the 3rd of

20 June. I would also hope that I'd have a few days to speak to him.

21 There's already been considerable proofing of him. And because of his

22 significance to the case, I would hope to have a few days with him at the

23 UN Detention Centre. So it's my aim to, if possible, try and deal with

24 him a little later, a little beyond the 3rd. Possibly earlier.

25 But that's the sort of schedule and forecast that -- the best

Page 8104

1 forecast that I could make.

2 Now, Ms. Reidy is coming back to The Hague on the 24th of May, and

3 she'll be coming back hopefully with some statements in proper 92 bis

4 form. I don't believe that she's going to come back with about more than

5 two or three statements in that time, and that may cause some surprise to

6 the Chamber, but there's good reason for that. And let me explain to the

7 Chamber the difficulties that face -- that she will be facing, that my

8 colleague Mr. Weiner will be facing, in going down and taking statements.

9 When witnesses come here, they have all the time in the world to assist

10 the Prosecution. They -- staying in hotels. They can come into the

11 office, and we can proof them continuously throughout the day, while other

12 Prosecutors are in court attending -- and keeping the matter -- the

13 business of the court proceeding in a proper fashion. When we go down to

14 Bosnia, we're having to deal with people who are going about their

15 ordinary lives and ordinary business, and we have to fit in with them, and

16 it's not always possible to get mothers and fathers and elderly people to

17 come and sit in the police station or wherever and sit there for hours and

18 hours, as they do here, proofing and getting -- and getting instructions

19 from them.

20 Furthermore, once the statement is completed, it's not just a

21 question of typing it out on the laptop computer and reading it back to

22 the witness and then sending it here. There aren't secure fax facilities

23 to send the statement back to -- to here. From where they're operating,

24 the nearest secure fax facilities are in Banja Luka and Sarajevo. So it's

25 not a question of just going down to the post office and putting the

Page 8105

1 completed statement in to be brought -- to be sent here so that we can

2 then immediately put it into the pipeline for translation. So the first

3 statements won't get back here until the 24th of June. Then they're put

4 in for translation. And I can't guarantee to the Chamber how long it's

5 going to take. So --

6 JUDGE WILLIAMS: You mean the 24th of May. Yes?

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Sorry. 24th of May.

8 JUDGE WILLIAMS: You just said 24th of June.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Sorry. My apologies. 24th of May.

10 In the best of worlds, it will be translated within a day or two

11 or three. That's in the best of worlds. And I fear that reality is that

12 it will take somewhat longer for the that for them to be officially

13 translated. Then we get to the point where we can serve them on the

14 Defence and the two or three-week period starts. So there's every

15 possibility that by about the middle of June, they'll only just be

16 starting to come through, the 92 bis statements. And I'm concerned that

17 if we're held rigidly to this -- to this order of --

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Not really. Because the Trial Chamber is trying to

19 look at how best it will deal with the rest of the witnesses.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Oh, yes. I -- let me state again that the

21 Prosecution is -- has no quarrel with the Chamber on that and the

22 Prosecution is doing whatever it can to adopt that procedure and the

23 Prosecution hopes that a good number - a good number - of those witnesses

24 that the Chamber wishes us to deal with under -- under 92 bis will be

25 dealt with pursuant to that rule. I'm not trying to undermine that in the

Page 8106

1 slightest. But I do want, if the Prosecution is -- if the Chamber is so

2 minded, to have a bit more flexibility, to be able to pick and choose some

3 of the witnesses from that 92 bis list and bring them here orally while

4 we're waiting for these processes to be dealt with and handled.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, definitely. Yes, definitely. That -- instead

6 of the Chamber adjourning.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Right.


9 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, that's what I wanted to -- that's the appeal

10 that I wanted to make to the Chamber. I --

11 JUDGE MUMBA: As long as we complete these others, like number 22,

12 number 23.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Oh, yes. Yes.


15 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. I had hoped to fit in -- use Ewa Tabeau next

16 week, but she's in fact on a mission in -- in Bosnia.

17 So can I say this to the Chamber: Can you please provide us with

18 flexibility and allow us to call some of the witnesses who are currently

19 92 bis witnesses in the usual fashion until the statements come -- start

20 coming through the pipeline, until all of those processes have been

21 properly attended to and we can just bring them in and deal with them in

22 the way that the Chamber wants us to under that rule. And if we do that,

23 I think we can keep proceeding with live witnesses until we get to this --

24 the point where they start being dealt with under the provisions of Rule

25 92 bis.

Page 8107

1 For example, number 13 lives in a nearby country, and he would be

2 an excellent witness to bring in at short notice and to plug in any gaps

3 that might arise. If --

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Because there's also the videolink witnesses, isn't

5 there?

6 MR. DI FAZIO: Oh, yes. Yes, there's -- yes. There's that

7 witness as well.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Because we can also go ahead with that.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: We could -- we could do that, yes.

10 But my main concern is this: We haven't lost sight of what you

11 want us to do, and we're fully on board with that and will do whatever we

12 can to put the witnesses into the right form.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio. The Trial Chamber's concern is

15 there must be a flow of witnesses.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: The second one is as much as possible, let's get

18 Rule 92 worked out, because it will enable us to -- perhaps even to

19 complete three, four, five witnesses per week.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: If that were to be done. Because the greater part

22 of the sitting hours will be used by cross-examination.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: I understand that fully, and as I said we've

24 started it already. Ms. Reidy is down there and Mr. Weiner's turn will

25 come.

Page 8108

1 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. And --

2 MR. DI FAZIO: As may mine.


4 MR. DI FAZIO: But at this stage, I'd just like that extra

5 flexibility. And if we have that flexibility, I can assure the Chamber

6 that we can keep the witnesses coming one after the other. Whether they

7 be dealt with in the normal fashion or under 92 bis, but we'll keep up

8 that flow of witnesses.

9 And the point will be reached eventually, I should think, where

10 most of the remainder of the witnesses will be -- will be 92 bis

11 witnesses.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Mm-hm. Has the Prosecution got the Trial Chamber's

13 order yet on Todorovic?

14 MR. DI FAZIO: No.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Because --

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Nothing has come across my desk.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: I see. Because the Trial Chamber's position is that

18 he should start giving evidence on the 3rd of June.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Now, in view of the problem we are having with the

21 current witness, depending on whether or not on Tuesday she will be able

22 to continue, maybe -- we may look at the calendar again.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. I'll do that.

24 If Your Honours please, would the Chamber be inconvenienced if he

25 did arrive on the 3rd and if the Chamber were able to usefully occupy its

Page 8109

1 time for a few days with another witness and I could then bring him on

2 sometime after the 3rd, because it's my earnest desire to speak to him

3 again before I bring him into court. I've already spent a lot of time

4 proofing him.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: No. The Trial Chamber was hoping that he would be

6 brought in before the 3rd.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, that would suit me as well. As long as I've

8 got that opportunity to speak to him before he starts his evidence. That's

9 not a problem.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Because the Chamber is expecting since we are

11 starting in the morning at 9.00, he should be in the witness box, in which

12 case he'll be brought in much earlier than the 3rd.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: I can't --

14 [Prosecution counsel confer]

15 MR. DI FAZIO: That would -- that can be done. That can be

16 engineered or brought about. I understand from having spoken to Registry

17 people that he was to be brought in on the 3rd or thereabouts.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh. Anyway that one --

19 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm sorry?

20 JUDGE MUMBA: I think that one will be sorted out depending on our

21 situation on Tuesday with the current witness.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Perhaps that can be finalised then.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, as far as the Prosecution

25 is concerned it really doesn't matter whether he starts on the 3rd or

Page 8110

1 whether he starts on the 10th. What does matter to the Prosecution is

2 that we be given an opportunity to speak to him for one or two days

3 beforehand.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: That's our main concern, because there are still a

6 number of issues that we have to deal with him notwithstanding all the

7 time that we have spent with him.

8 So can I, Your Honours, assume that I am permitted to call some of

9 these witnesses who were intended to be 92 bis witnesses --

10 JUDGE MUMBA: As long as they are called after all these others

11 who are still waiting to be called.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Oh, yes. Of course. We'll deal with -- yes.

13 If things -- if I'm completely wrong and --

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Things move much faster.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: If things move much faster, then of course that

16 would happen. I have no desire to abandon this general game plan. But

17 all -- as I said, can I assume that if things don't go in -- ideally, that

18 I can continue to call live witnesses until the 92 bis statements start to

19 flow through?

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. If we have reached the stage when they're

21 finished.

22 On the witness, on number 20, Stipo Cerninski, the Trial Chamber

23 will look at what the summary says before it can decide whether or not he

24 should actually be called at the instance of the Trial Chamber.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Thank you.

Page 8111

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Any matters from the Defence? No.

2 Yes, Mr. Lukic.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just one comment in

4 principle, which will probably be a repetition. But I have reason to

5 repeat it on the occasion of this last testimony. You have probably

6 noticed that the past few witnesses whom we heard had given earlier

7 statements -- or I should use the word "interviews" -- and were notified

8 to us as accompanied by so-called informal interviews or notes of the

9 Prosecutor. We received notes of interviews which were conducted just

10 before their testimony, and that was the only thing that we had to help us

11 in relation to some facts which had not been mentioned previously.

12 However, in the case of this witness, we received absolutely nothing from

13 the Office of the Prosecutor, and we heard a lot of completely new things

14 which were not covered by any of the previous notes or interviews, and

15 therefore I would be very grateful that if the Prosecution office does

16 conduct certain interviews, especially if the accused are specifically

17 mentioned and if it was the stand of this Trial Chamber from the beginning

18 that we should avoid games of hide and seek, if such interviews are

19 conducted, as I said, I hope we can get the notes. Otherwise, we are

20 prevented from conducting appropriate consultations with our clients

21 before the testimony. And I repeat: I am saying this because we have

22 heard from this witness a large number of things that had not been

23 mentioned and we have only the statements which are even unsigned by the

24 witnesses in question.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

Page 8112

1 MR. WEINER: I'd just like to respond to that, because I'm the one

2 who usually provides the -- the summaries.

3 This witness came on a last-minute basis on Sunday, so I had to

4 try and proof her very quickly. When I received some information --

5 because she does talk about extensive information in her statement. And

6 when she provided more detail and it looked like suddenly she was going on

7 the witness stand on Monday, what I did was -- and I told I would follow

8 up with a report -- number one, I contacted each Defence counsel

9 personally to tell them exactly what in relation to their client she was

10 going to provide. I contacted Mr. Lukic first. He contacted

11 Mr. Lazarevic to have Mr. Lazarevic call me because I could not get hold

12 of Mr. Lazarevic. Then I personally contacted Mr. Pantelic to let each

13 one of them know what exactly they were going to testify to.

14 Yesterday at lunchtime I tried to type it out. I had trouble with

15 the computer. Everything is in the computer, I can't take it out. It's

16 in a laptop computer. I'll be happy to provide it either today if we can

17 get it out or I'll retype it myself tomorrow morning. But I didn't want

18 to Court to think that no discovery as to further specifics of what she

19 had provided in her report were provided, that they were reported orally

20 as opposed to in writing. If I can't get that out of the laptop computer,

21 which I'm having trouble doing, I'll just retype it tomorrow morning and

22 I'll give it to each -- or I'll retype it tonight. And if they'll stay

23 around for about 30 minutes, I'll provide it tonight. I'm a slow typist,

24 and it's one page.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution should do that as soon as

Page 8113

1 possible so that the Defence counsels can properly consult with their

2 clients for cross-examination.

3 MR. WEINER: That's fine. They can have it tonight within 30

4 minutes.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. --

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I just want to avoid any unclarity.

7 It's true that Mr. Weiner called me on the phone, but it was only to say

8 that he had nothing new concerning my client. So if there is anything

9 new, as he says now, I will be grateful for the notes.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. The Trial Chamber can only trust the

11 Prosecution to do their duty accordingly for continuation of these

12 proceedings according to the rules. We shall adjourn now and the

13 proceedings will continue on Tuesday at 14.15 hours.

14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.02 p.m., to

15 be reconvened on Tuesday, the 21st day of May, 2002,

16 at 2.15 p.m.