Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8114

1 Tuesday, 21 May 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The accused Milan Simic not present]

5 [The witness entered court]

6 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Case number

9 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Milan Simic, Miroslav

10 Tadic, and Simo Zaric.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well. Examination-in-chief is still

12 continuing. Yes, Mr. Weiner.


14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 Examined by Mr. Weiner [Continued].

16 Q. Good afternoon, ma'am. Are you feeling better today?

17 A. I'm feeling very well.

18 Q. If at any time you don't feel well, would you please just notify

19 the Judges or the Court, if you're not feeling well.

20 A. Thank you.

21 Q. Now, when we left off on Thursday, we were discussing situations

22 where local residents were giving bribes to the defendant Miroslav Tadic

23 and Sveto Vasovic in order to get out of Bosanski Samac. Do you recall

24 that, ma'am?

25 A. Certainly.

Page 8115

1 Q. And you told us that a number of people told you after they left

2 how they bribed these two persons.

3 A. That's right.

4 Q. And you told us about Juro Krajinovic who was a director at the

5 Mladost company?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And you told us how he paid some 5.000 Deutschmarks to the

8 defendant Miroslav Tadic to get his family out of Bosanski Samac in 1992.

9 A. Correct. That was the first family to leave Samac, the first

10 Croatian family, that is, as far as I know. Maybe there were some who

11 left even earlier.

12 Q. Now, were they exchanged as part of the exchange programme or were

13 they just driven out pursuant to the bribe, or do you know?

14 A. Mr. Miro Brko drove them out in his own car. It was not an

15 exchange. It was a private service.

16 Q. And when you say Miro Brko, are you referring to the defendant

17 Miroslav Tadic?

18 A. Yes. Yes. I apologise. Miroslav Tadic, yes.

19 Q. Nothing to apologise for. As you keep on referring to him as

20 Miroslav Brko, is that because in Tadic -- I'm sorry - in Samac don't

21 everyone -- doesn't everyone have a nickname?

22 A. That's correct. If somebody were asking for me by my full name,

23 nobody would know who they were looking for. We use only nicknames, and

24 that's how we know each other, by nickname.

25 Q. Now, let's continue on with the bribes to be released from

Page 8116

1 Bosanski Samac. Did any members of your family - nieces, nephews, any of

2 your relatives - bribe -- use a bribe to get out of Bosanski Samac?

3 A. Yes. When my brother's son, Abdulah Avdo Drljacic was exchanged

4 or rather when he was supposed to be exchanged and was brought for that

5 purpose from Batkovic, his mother, wife, and children were supposed to

6 accompany him. However, his mother was eventually allowed to come, but

7 not his wife, under the pretext that she was under her work obligation.

8 She was a very beautiful woman, I must say. They got around to gathering

9 all their jewellery in a small box, and Avdo's wife went to Sveto and told

10 him, "Uncle Sveto, you forgot this box." He didn't look what was inside,

11 but he supposed it was a bribe, and she was eventually allowed to go to

12 the exchange.

13 Q. Now, her name was -- what was her name, your niece who bribed

14 Sveto? What was her name?

15 A. Drljacic.

16 Q. And what was her first name?

17 A. Fadila Drljacic.

18 Q. And she handed Sveto Vasovic this box filled with jewellery?

19 A. Whatever they had, they gave him.

20 Q. He didn't return the box, did he?

21 A. No. He knew it was meant for him. He knew very well that he

22 hadn't forgotten anything. It was just a trick. But they understood each

23 other very well.

24 Q. How did she know to go to Sveto with a bribe?

25 A. Sveto was the one who read out the names of people who were

Page 8117

1 allowed to go on the bus for exchange.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Krgovic. Can you start again?

4 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honours. The

5 question is formulated in such a way as to ask the witness to speculate as

6 to what another person was thinking.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What is this all about?

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

9 MR. WEINER: I was just trying to get some information basically

10 what was the knowledge of her niece, if she knows, how did she know to go

11 to Sveto. And I was going to ask the follow-up question: Was it

12 basically a public secret if you want to call it, that everyone knew who

13 to bribe in Bosanski Samac to get out.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Perhaps you can ask, adding the latter part of

15 your explanation to the witness.


17 Q. All right, ma'am. Rather than look at your daughter's thoughts -

18 I'm sorry, your niece's thoughts - was it public knowledge in Bosanski

19 Samac who you had to bribe to get on the exchange list or to get out of

20 the Bosanski Samac?

21 A. That's correct. I didn't know. If I had known about it then, I

22 would have tried the same thing. However, only after I was exchanged

23 other people told me, "How come you didn't know that you could go to Sveto

24 or Miro and pay them? You could have left earlier."

25 Q. Now, after your daughter gave the bribe to Sveto, was she

Page 8118

1 exchanged?

2 A. She is not my daughter; she is the daughter-in-law of my brother.

3 She was allowed to go to -- to board that bus after she handed him that

4 box, that jewellery box.

5 Q. I'm sorry. Your niece Fadila, Fadila. So she was allowed to be

6 exchanged after she made the bribe?

7 A. She immediately boarded the bus, which left for the exchange.

8 Q. Now, let us move on to your exchange. Let's move on to December

9 24th, 1993. Now, prior to your being exchanged, within a week prior to

10 your being exchanged, did you go to see someone to request to be

11 exchanged?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. Tell the Court what happened.

14 A. My next-door neighbour, named Maslic, I think his first name was

15 Vjekoslav Maslic, in any case, he was a minister at the Red Cross. And I

16 went to see him without any idea about whether there was supposed to be an

17 exchange. I went there just to talk to him, because I couldn't find him

18 at his apartment for a while before that. So when I came to him, I said,

19 "I'm sorry. I didn't come to see you as a neighbour or as a minister. I

20 came to talk to you as a human being, considering that you know that my

21 daughter is living in Croatia and is married to a Serb, could I possibly,

22 in case I am exchanged, create for them even greater difficulties than

23 they are already experiencing?" And he answered, "You have to go."

24 Q. Let's just take a step back. Why did you feel you would create

25 greater difficulties by going to -- by getting exchange and meeting them

Page 8119

1 or living with them?

2 A. Well, in view of the situation in which we Muslims were in, we

3 were totally disenfranchised. I didn't know whether they were in the same

4 position in Croatia. And at the time there was a conflict between Muslims

5 and Croats, a serious conflict, and my daughter was a Muslim and her

6 husband was a Serb. I didn't know what situation they were in. And he,

7 regardless of the side he was on, should know more than I about the

8 situation over there. So that's why I went to talk to him.

9 Q. And he said to you, "You have to go"?

10 A. That's right.

11 Q. And how long after he said, "You have to go" were you exchanged?

12 A. It was precisely at the time when they were supposed to clear out

13 the camp in Zasavica. Of course I didn't know anything about that. But

14 that coincided, luckily for me, with the time of my conversation. It was

15 a day or to before that. A courier, Muslim, who was under work obligation

16 delivering messages, came to my home and said, "Tomorrow you and Piko

17 should be ready to go to the venue of an exchange." I was very surprised.

18 Q. So let me just get this straight. You meet with Maslic, and then

19 a few days --

20 A. Yes, at the municipality in the Red Cross office, and there was a

21 sign on his door saying: Minister and his name, Vladimiro or Vjekoslav

22 Maslic. I don't know his first name precisely. I've mentioned it before,

23 though.

24 Q. And how many days later did the courier come to your house after

25 you met with Maslic?

Page 8120

1 A. A day or two after my discussion with Maslic, maybe even the

2 following day, but it was late in the evening, or night, when he came.

3 Q. Okay. Now, did they tell you to report at a certain location?

4 A. Yes. We were to be outside the local commune at 7.30 in the

5 morning, and that's what we did.

6 Q. When you say "we," you mean you and Piko. Who was Piko?

7 A. Piko is my brother, Teufik Drljacic.

8 Q. So you reported, I believe, on December 24th, 1993?

9 A. Correct, at half past 7.00 in the morning.

10 Q. And when you got there, did you see any of the defendants at the

11 local commune?

12 A. First we underwent a search. They asked us what we were carrying.

13 I had a travel bag. And I said it was a travel bag containing things

14 that belonged to me and my brother. Nobody searched any of my things. I

15 just boarded the bus. I don't know whether the others were searched. It

16 was not an exchange, but it was labelled as an exchange. We were

17 accompanied by Miroslav Tadic and this Maslic, plus some policemen.

18 Q. Now, did you see the defendant Miroslav Tadic at the local commune

19 on that morning when you gathered?

20 A. I don't know whether he was outside the local commune, but in any

21 case, we saw him in Gradiska. That was where we crossed the Sava River

22 and that's where we saw each other.

23 Q. Did anyone call out the names for those to board the bus?

24 A. Well, all those who were on the list - and I really can't remember

25 any more whether the list was read out outside the bus. It probably was,

Page 8121

1 lest somebody who wasn't on the list got on the bus. I can't remember

2 such details, because I wasn't very composed. You can't be very composed

3 at such moments.

4 Q. Now, you got on the bus. Did your brother Piko enter the bus too?

5 A. Yes. He was together with me on the bus. However, it was the

6 time when they were clearing out the camp in Zasavica, and there was a

7 separate bus for the people who had been in that camp, Muslims, plus a few

8 Croats who had been left over, the former owners of those homes. So they

9 picked up the leftover Croats, the original inhabitants of the village,

10 plus the Muslims who had been sent to camp there.

11 Q. All right. Let's stay at the local commune first before we get to

12 Zasavica. Were many people on the bus at the local commune?

13 A. The bus was packed to such an extent that we barely had standing

14 room. We sat on our things, on our luggage. People sat in each other's

15 lap. Mr. Miroslav Tadic is perhaps better placed to describe it than I

16 am.

17 Q. You said that Mr. Tadic accompanied the bus. Did he get on the

18 bus or did he go in a separate vehicle?

19 A. I think he travelled in a separate vehicle, although we saw him in

20 Gradiska. But after we crossed the Sava River and got on the Croatian

21 side, we drove for a while, back and forth, back and forth, for a long

22 time, and we didn't know what was going on.

23 Q. Let's just stop. We've got to get to Zasavica first before we get

24 to Croatia. Let's take it one step at a time.

25 On the bus, were there men, women, were there soldiers? Who were

Page 8122

1 these people placed on the bus with you and your brother? Were these

2 children? As best you can recall.

3 A. Women, children, and elderly men. For instance, there was one Ago

4 Hadziabdic, Reuf's father born in 1913 who had previously been in

5 Batkovici, and I don't know where he had been detained before Batkovici.

6 And after he was brought from Batkovici, he was transported to Zasavica

7 again, and he got out at the same time as I did. It was the last

8 exchange, although it wasn't really an exchange. I don't know what it

9 was. You can decide that for yourself.

10 Q. This 80-year-old man who was being held in Batkovici and Zasavica,

11 of what ethnic group did he belong?

12 A. He was a Muslim. It's Reuf Hadziabdic's father.

13 Q. And what was his physical condition, if you can recall? Was he a

14 well man? Was he sickly?

15 A. He was very ill even before that, and especially so after all the

16 torture he had gone through. He wasn't able even to walk properly.

17 Q. From the local commune, you go to Zasavica. Can you describe the

18 people who got on the bus at Zasavica? Are we talking about women,

19 children, soldiers? Who was placed on that bus at Zasavica?

20 A. Our bus didn't enter Zasavica. They were loaded on buses there.

21 But I know a couple of people who were put on buses in Zasavica. For

22 instance, my cousin, Fatima; then a disabled woman, Fatima Barjaktarevic.

23 These women had been driven out of their homes to make room for Serbs who

24 wanted to move in. And that was my case too. I was driven out of my

25 apartment so that somebody else could move in, although I never found out

Page 8123

1 who exactly moved in after I was expelled. For the most part, those were

2 civilians: Women, children, and a few men, elderly men, including that old

3 man born in 1913.

4 Q. Did you see them loading these people or placing these people on

5 the bus at Zasavica or did you arrive there and already see a bus of

6 people waiting out front?

7 A. Their bus drove either in front of ours or behind ours, but we met

8 up in Vrhpolje. And when we got off in Dragalici, we saw them. In any

9 case, they were separate from us. And I was like lost. I didn't know

10 what to expect. I thought we would intermingle and swap places. And this

11 Maslic, my neighbour, told me at one point, "Why don't you go and join all

12 the others?" I don't know how I got to the bus and how I got on that bus.

13 I don't know whether it was an exchange or a mopping up operation.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: [Previous translation continues] ...for the witness,

15 please.

16 MR. WEINER: Do you have a question, Your Honour?

17 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Yes. Actually, a little bit of a clarification

18 question here. I'm a little bit unclear, the talk of people from Zasavica

19 getting on buses and so on. It appeared, Mr. Weiner, for some of your

20 questions that you were under the impression that the witness had been in

21 Zasavica herself. I'd just like a clarification re: The witness enters

22 the bus in Bosanski Samac. Is it true that people were brought from

23 Zasavica to the retirement municipal building and also boarded a

24 different, separate bus there, and then they went to the exchange point?

25 I'd just like to get the scenario a little bit clearer than I have it in

Page 8124

1 my mind at the moment.

2 MR. WEINER: I'm trying to develop that myself.

3 Q. All right. The Judge has some questions, ma'am. The persons on

4 the bus from Zasavica, you indicated there were two buses. You got on

5 one. Did persons from Zasavica enter the bus that you were on? Just that

6 question first. Did persons from Zasavica enter your bus?

7 A. No. They had a separate bus. Their bus was separate. They

8 entered the bus in Zasavica. Zasavica is six kilometres away -- further

9 away from Samac. We were all civilians, but those civilians that were not

10 in the camp were in one bus, and those that were in the camp were in the

11 other bus, so that we had no contact with each other.

12 I'd also like to add the following. I apologise for being late.

13 When we crossed onto the Croatian side and when we were supposed to exit

14 the bus, and this time while we were being driven back and forth, we had

15 no idea what was going on. At that moment, Miroslav Tadic entered the bus

16 that I was on and said the following: "The Croatians won't take you. You

17 have nowhere to return to because gubars are in your houses."

18 Q. All right. Let's once again take a one step at a time?

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner, could we find out what gubars means too,

20 please.

21 MR. WEINER: All right. We'll do that one first.

22 Q. Could you describe -- could you define the word "gubar"?

23 A. I will try to explain it as well as I can. Basically, those are

24 insects that destroy trees. It's some kind of a caterpillar, so some kind

25 of a pest, but I'm not quite sure what he meant when he said this to us.

Page 8125

1 I think he would be the one to explain it.

2 Q. All right. At some point you stop after driving around; is that

3 correct?

4 MR. WEINER: Mr. Usher, she is having trouble with her earphones.

5 THE WITNESS: That's okay.


7 Q. At some point -- let's take it slowly, one step at a time. Can

8 you hear me?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay. At some point you stop. You have two buses: One from

11 Zasavica and one from Bosanski Samac, and at some point you stop and

12 Miroslav Tadic enters the bus. Where are you at that point?

13 A. I was on the bus that Tadic entered. This was in the evening.

14 They couldn't stay with us. It seemed that this would take a long time.

15 So he said, "We are going to sleep in Gradiska. Croats won't take you in,

16 and you have nowhere to go, because these pests, these insects, are

17 already in your homes."

18 Q. After you were removed from your homes, people of what ethnic

19 group moved into your homes?

20 A. Serbs were moving in, but I don't know the specific person, the

21 particular person that moved into my house.

22 Q. You couldn't go back to Bosanski Samac at that time because people

23 were moving into your homes; is that correct, ma'am?

24 A. That's correct. But we also didn't want to return home. We were

25 very happy to be leaving. We were -- we expected to leave for freedom,

Page 8126

1 because we had no freedom where we had been before that.

2 Q. Okay. Now, what happens -- you're at a point, you've been sitting

3 there, told you're going to stay for the evening, that the Croats don't

4 want you. Do you get exchanged that day?

5 A. After Mr. Miroslav and Mr. Maslic left, a police officer got on

6 the bus and he asked us to collect 200 Deutschmarks for them, since they

7 had to stay with us. We collected as much as we could. It could also be

8 the case that some of us couldn't show everything we had, so there was

9 some difficulty, but at the end we managed to collect 200 Deutschmarks and

10 they left us alone. What they did after that, I don't know. We were on

11 the bus without any policemen.

12 Q. Okay. Were you eventually exchanged, or were you eventually given

13 the right to go to Croatia?

14 A. This all happened in the evening, and this was just before the

15 Catholic Christmas. This exchange or this cleansing wasn't reported to

16 the Croatians, because they were at midnight mass, I assumed. After the

17 midnight mass was over - I don't know exactly when, sometime after

18 midnight - we were told that the Croatian buses arrived and we were

19 allowed to leave our buses. We disembarked our buses. It was raining

20 very heavily. And I already mentioned to you that I was very lost, that I

21 didn't know which way to turn. I waited for some kind of a line to form.

22 But I already said this to you before, so I don't want to repeat myself.

23 But all this happened after midnight on the 25th of December, 1993.

24 Q. And did you see Miroslav Tadic there while you were sent over to

25 the Croatian buses?

Page 8127

1 A. I didn't see Miroslav personally, but I believe he was there. I

2 saw Maslic, however, and Maslic was telling me where to go. I was

3 completely lost. At some point I had remained entirely by myself and he

4 was directing me. But Miroslav must have been there as well.

5 Q. Now, you said at that point you wanted to leave for freedom.

6 Prior to then - let's go back to April, before the war started - in April,

7 before the war started, did you want to leave Bosanski Samac, that town

8 where your family had lived since the nineteenth century?

9 A. I never wanted to leave my town, and I don't even want to leave it

10 today. And even though I might not be welcome there, I want to return and

11 die and be buried by my parents. However, the war in Croatia started

12 before the Bosnian war, and my daughter lives in Croatia even today. They

13 had to move from town to town because they were refugees. And as a

14 mother, I was following my daughter, because my daughter had three young

15 children, and she needed both physical and moral support. Therefore, I

16 was in Croatia this whole time, but I would come to Samac to pay my bills

17 and see the doctor, get my medication, because I've been sick for very

18 many years. And so it happened that on the 15th of April, I came back to

19 Samac, in the evening. I finished all my errands on Thursday, and then on

20 Friday the Chetniks had arrived in Samac.

21 Q. Okay. Now, let's go back to April. Before the war, your brothers

22 and sisters that were living in Samac, did any of them want to leave Samac

23 prior to the war?

24 A. Before the war, one of my brothers had lived in Zagreb for 20 or

25 more years, so he did not live in Samac.

Page 8128

1 Q. Just the ones who were living in Samac. Just the ones who were

2 living in Samac. Did they want to leave?

3 A. No, they never wanted to leave. They never even thought about

4 it. We were born there and we thought we would be buried there as well.

5 Q. Did you and the members of your family enjoy living in Samac at

6 that time, prior to the war?

7 A. Of course. We had perfectly normal lives. And those people that

8 later started calling us extremists, we were friends with them. I found

9 it very strange that my neighbour talked to me up to the very last day of

10 peace, and then when the Chetniks arrived, he all of a sudden didn't know

11 me. We all lived together. My family is mixed, as I said. My daughter

12 is married to a Serb, and he himself stems from a mixed marriage. He has

13 no prejudices, he doesn't feel Serbian or Hungarian. He feels Croatian

14 because he was born in Croatia as was his father and grandfather. They

15 were all born in Croatia and he feels Croatian.

16 Q. Let's just take it one step. If not for the conditions that were

17 placed on the Muslims and Croats, and the treatment of the non-Serb

18 population, including the beatings and the jailings or the imprisonment,

19 would you have left that area, you and the members of your family?

20 A. Never, and I will return to Samac, and that is where I want to

21 rest my bones.

22 Q. Ma'am, have you recently got your apartment back in Samac?

23 A. I got the apartment back after a lot of trouble. I was told that

24 I should go to Mile Pancir --

25 Q. Before we get to that -- we'll get to that shortly. Let's just

Page 8129

1 take -- let's follow it. We'll do it orderly. When did you receive your

2 apartment back? When did you get it back first?

3 A. I can't remember the exact date, but it happened this year, in

4 March or April that I got my keys back.

5 Q. Basically a few months ago?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. Okay. Now, have you visited your apartment since you received it

8 back?

9 A. I entered the apartment. I had been there and I saw its

10 condition. I had to find repairmen so that they could make it into a

11 livable apartment again.

12 Q. Tell the Court what your apartment looked like when you got it

13 back a few months ago.

14 A. My apartment was in a new building and I lived in it for 13 or 14

15 years before the war, so this was a very new building. When I entered my

16 apartment, however, you couldn't tell what colour the walls were, or

17 anything else. Everything was very dirty, everything was ruined. I found

18 the bigger pieces of my property. They hadn't been taken out, but they

19 were so demolished that they had to be ruined except for one wardrobe,

20 which might be salvaged yet, for example, if I changed the handles and so

21 on and so forth. And maybe the kitchen could be refurbished. But

22 everything else was so ruined that I had to remove it from the apartment.

23 The wash machine worked, but it seemed so terrible to me that I said that

24 I didn't want it. The neighbour that lived in the apartment below me

25 said, "Please, don't throw it away. The machine still works, and I could

Page 8130

1 use it, so why don't you give it to me." So I gave her my washing

2 machine. And I told the men that they should carry out everything out of

3 the apartment except for the wardrobe and the kitchen elements, and also a

4 stove.

5 Q. Was any of the furniture that you had had in 1992, was any of that

6 missing?

7 A. Chairs were missing, and a wash basin in the bathroom, and also

8 some tapestries were missing, some of the tapestries that were on the

9 walls. I even found the lamps. They were broken, but my chandeliers were

10 still there. So, as I said, other than the chairs, all my other furniture

11 was still there.

12 Q. And your brothers and their families, did they lose anything?

13 A. They all lost everything. The house belonging to two of my

14 brothers -- the houses belonging to two of my brothers were destroyed,

15 Abid's and Teufik's houses. They were destroyed because they were taking

16 off the roof, the tiles, also the doors and the windows, and therefore

17 rain was entering the house, and that's how it got ruined.

18 Q. Who took off the roofs and the doors from those homes?

19 A. That is well known. The Serbs.

20 Q. Now, you said you got your home back a few months ago. When did

21 you first receive notice that you had the right to get your apartment

22 back?

23 A. I got the notice from Geneva in 1998. I got this notice when I

24 was in the States. And at the end of 1999 or early 2000, I went to Samac

25 with this letter to Mile, and they laughed at me. They were wondering how

Page 8131

1 come I got this letter from Geneva. So I couldn't accomplish anything. I

2 went back to the States and I was only able to finish this business this

3 year.

4 Q. Okay. When you got that notice from Geneva saying you could get

5 your apartment back, you said you went to Mile. Who did you go to? Who

6 was Mile?

7 A. He works there at the Ministry for Refugees and Displaced

8 Persons. His name is Mile Pancir. I don't know his last name. I never

9 knew it. But more than once he said the following: "Just say Mile Pancir

10 sent you," because he would recommend to me who I should go and see if I

11 wanted things done. I know Mile's mother very well. I've known her for

12 many years. She worked in the production department of the same company

13 where I worked at. His mother's name was Rada, but I never knew her last

14 name either.

15 Q. Okay.

16 A. Just a moment. I apologise. Now, since I remembered Rada, I

17 would like to say the following: Once when I was seeing off my dearest

18 before they were supposed to be exchanged, and I showed you how I was

19 walking, I couldn't -- after we -- after the exchange was done, we were

20 all returning together, but I stayed behind. I was left behind because I

21 couldn't walk. And then I heard Mile's mother Rada say the following.

22 She was on a bike: "You motherfuckers, how many of you are still left?

23 You should all be murdered." I didn't want to miss the opportunity to say

24 that.

25 Q. All right. Let's stick with Mile first. You went the first time

Page 8132

1 in 1999 to see Mile Pancir. Where did you go? Did you see him in an

2 office in Bosanski Samac or an office elsewhere? Where did you see him?

3 A. In the same office. I can't remember if it was Mile personally,

4 because there was more than one person there. There are always more than

5 one person there. I don't know if they work for him or what else they

6 might be doing. But basically some of his co-workers. The first time

7 they laughed at me when I came with this letter from Geneva. They

8 laughed. Why would I get a letter from Geneva which would enable me to

9 reclaim my apartment?

10 Q. And you went to his office. Was that - just yes or no - was that

11 in Bosanski Samac?

12 A. Yes. Yes. In the same office where I at the end got my apartment

13 back.

14 Q. Tell us about that. When -- when you went back to that office,

15 did you see Mile Pancir, Mile, nicknamed Pancir, to get your home back,

16 your apartment back?

17 A. The first or the second time?

18 Q. The second time. Not in 1999, but the Geneva letter. Did you

19 eventually go back and see him concerning getting your apartment back?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Tell the Court what happened.

22 A. I came and I asked if I could get my apartment back, and Mile

23 said, "How much will you give me so to make this -- to get this decision

24 for you?" He knew I was coming from the States. And I said, "Well, I

25 don't know how much you're asking for." He said, "Well, how about a

Page 8133

1 hundred dollars?" I thought, once I got this decision, that everything

2 would be okay. I agreed. I said, "Okay. I will give you the hundred

3 dollars." Then he repeated, "So you will give me a hundred dollars for me

4 to make you -- to get this decision for you, and then you will give me a

5 further 500 dollars so I can clear out your apartment and also give you

6 the keys back." I was very surprised, and for me that was a lot of

7 money. Since I received social support in the States, I cannot make much

8 money, and I only receive very little. So I receive this social help, and

9 I am only entitled to this very minimal amount of money, and for me this

10 was a lot.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner, can you control the witness, please?

12 Let's get to what is relevant.

13 MR. WEINER: I'm trying to finish.

14 Q. Now, did you give Mile Pancir this money? Did you give him these

15 bribes?

16 A. The first day when we were talking about this, I didn't even have

17 a hundred dollars on me. I only had 60 dollars. I also gave him 50

18 Deutschmarks, and he said, "You're 15 dollars short." The second time

19 when I came to get the decision and when he was supposed to tell me when

20 the apartment would be emptied out, I agree with my son-in-law, to whom I

21 told, "I will give him 500 Deutschmarks." And my son-in-law said,

22 "Mother, don't cause trouble. We will give him 500 dollars." But I was

23 very insistent and I gave him 500 Deutschmarks. Please let me finish. I

24 gave him 500 Deutschmarks, he counted them and put them in the drawer, and

25 he asked me, "What did you give me?" I said, "500." 500 what? 500

Page 8134

1 Deutschmarks. What did we agree on? Did we say 500 Deutschmarks or --?

2 My son-in-law then interrupted and he said "Well, why don't you give me

3 Deutschmarks back and I will give you dollars." My son-in-law gave 500

4 dollars and he took the 500 Deutschmarks from him.

5 On the same day he told me the following, "You will give me 50

6 Deutschmarks so that I help you get an ID, and you will give me 150

7 Deutschmarks so that I can help you purchase your apartment. My

8 son-in-law gave this money to him in the car immediately. He gave him

9 another 50 and another 150, so all together 200 Deutschmarks more.

10 At the end, he was also supposed to give me a stamp finalising the

11 contract through which the apartment would become my private property, but

12 he got sick. And so on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, we had to come every

13 day from Osijek, but he was at the hospital. However, on Wednesday, Damir

14 Ibralic was brought in, who was supposed to take his place, and the other

15 two that had always been there together with Mile were also present, and

16 they asked, "Did you make arrangements with Mile?" My son-in-law said,

17 "Yes , we did, and we paid for everything." And then he said, "Well, you

18 have to pay another hundred Deutschmarks for Damir. Please come back in

19 half an hour. The contract will be stamped."

20 Q. And after all of these bribes, did you get your contract and your

21 apartment back?

22 A. Yes. After he put the stamp on my contract, I went across the

23 street to the company where I used to work at, and that's where I got a

24 receipt with which I could pay for my apartment at the bank.

25 Q. Okay. Now, you got your apartment back and you noticed that it

Page 8135

1 was damaged, things were destroyed, things were taken. Did you give

2 anyone permission, back in 1993, 1992 -- actually, 1993, to use your

3 apartment or to take any of your things, any of your property?

4 A. I never gave anyone permission. The apartment was simply taken

5 away from me. And I have already told you what happened with the sewing

6 machine.

7 Q. Thank you very much.

8 MR. WEINER: No further questions, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Cross-examination.

10 Yes, Mr. Krgovic.

11 Cross-examined by Mr. Krgovic:

12 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, ma'am.

13 A. Good afternoon.

14 Q. Before I start with my question, can you tell me, are you feeling

15 all right? Do you need a rest?

16 A. I'm feeling quite well.

17 Q. My name is Dragan Krgovic. I will be asking you some questions

18 regarding the answers you gave to the Prosecutor today. My questions will

19 be formulated in such a way as to allow you to answer with a "yes," "no,"

20 or "I don't know," and if you want to clarify anything, my colleague from

21 the Prosecution can give you time for that in his re-examination. Also, I

22 wish to say that since we share a language in common and all this needs to

23 be interpreted, please make a pause, a brief pause, before you start

24 answering, to avoid confusion and problems for the interpreters.

25 A. All right.

Page 8136

1 Q. Ma'am, at the beginning of your testimony, you mentioned that you

2 were called names, and we are now talking about April 1992. You said that

3 they called you Ustashas.

4 A. That's correct.

5 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Krgovic, I think it might be useful in terms

6 of your introduction if you let the witness know the name of your client.

7 You haven't said who you're acting as counsel for in the case.

8 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, certainly.

9 Q. Ms. Drljacic, I am asking these questions on behalf of Miroslav

10 Tadic's Defence.

11 A. That's all right with me.

12 Q. Let us go back to my question. You said that they called you

13 Ustashas.

14 A. Correct. Please allow me. They called us Ustashas because

15 Muslims --

16 Q. Please, ma'am. We'll come back to this later. That's precisely

17 my next question, by the way. But please be patient and let's try to

18 stick to the point.

19 You found that derogatory because in the Second World War, if I

20 understood you correctly, some Muslims, and a great number of Croats, were

21 members of the Ustasha movement, whose units committed war crimes during

22 the Second World War; is that correct?

23 A. I don't know a single Muslim in Samac who had been an Ustasha.

24 Q. But you found this name derogatory because of this criminal

25 reputation of Ustasha units?

Page 8137

1 A. They were taking out their anger on us. They were not calling us

2 Ustashas because we were Ustashas.

3 Q. I'm asking whether this was insulting to you because they were

4 associating you with the Ustasha movement.

5 A. Well, those people were evil, and if you are an honest and decent

6 person, you don't like to be called that way.

7 Q. Ma'am, you also mentioned in your testimony you were 9 in 1941.

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. You mentioned Jews who were sweeping streets and who suddenly

10 disappeared.

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. And those Jews, were they killed in Samac by those Ustashas who

13 actually took them away to camps and killed them there?

14 A. I don't know what happened to them exactly. I don't know who took

15 them away or where, and whether they were killed. They just vanished

16 without a trace.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, I think we are getting into an area which

18 is not relevant for this indictment.

19 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness, when she

20 was talking about white armbands, said that she associated them with the

21 fate of the Jews in the Second World War, and that is what I wanted to

22 clarify, whether she found the name "Ustasha" derogatory because she knows

23 that those Jews, during the war, were taken with Serbs, together with

24 Serbs to Jasenovac and killed there.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not responsible for their past,

Page 8138

1 and I don't want to go back to the Second World War.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Witness, you should wait for questions from counsel

3 and then answer them. When counsel is addressing the Bench, you don't

4 have to intervene. You are always to answer questions when counsel asks

5 you, all right?

6 You can go ahead.

7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am going to abandon

8 this subject and move on.

9 Q. Ma'am, you referred in your testimony to the fact that in April

10 1992 the citizens of Bosanski Samac received bread and milk as aid, and if

11 I understood correctly, this bread and milk was distributed to members of

12 all ethnic groups.

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. Including you?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. How long did this last?

17 A. I don't know exactly, but it was right at the beginning.

18 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would now like to

19 tender a document which has already been disclosed to the Office of the

20 Prosecutor. It is a list of persons receiving humanitarian aid, drafted

21 by the office of the Red Cross of Bosanski Samac. The ERN number begins

22 with 4806, and the last ERN number is 4814. I also have an authorised

23 English translation.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well.

25 MR. WEINER: Could counsel read the full ERN number so we can...

Page 8139


2 MR. KRGOVIC: 0004806 is the first page, and the last page is

3 0004814. [Interpretation] Your Honours, just one clarification. On the

4 authorised translation we have the organisation identified who drafted the

5 document, and the first and the last name of the person on the last page.

6 That's how we got this translation from the CLSS.


8 MR. KRGOVIC: Any objection?

9 MR. WEINER: No objections to the document.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have an objection myself.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no. You wait for counsel to ask you

12 questions. If there is anything that you want to explain, the Prosecution

13 will deal with that. So just wait for questions from counsel.

14 Yes. Can we have the number?

15 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. Can we get a number for

16 this document, please.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. The English translation is

18 D42/3, and the B/C/S is D42/3 ter.

19 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Ma'am, you have seen this document?

21 A. I have, and I protest against it. It says here Republika Srpska,

22 an entity which was totally unknown to us.

23 Q. Ma'am, please.

24 A. At that time there was no Republika Srpska. Republika Srpska --

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you wait for questions? Those matters as to

Page 8140

1 what entity or what country, all these things took place in will be dealt

2 with by the Prosecution. So just wait for questions from counsel and

3 answer them.

4 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Ma'am, please. It is precisely for this reason that I highlighted

6 certain sections. Would you read that, please?

7 A. In the left corner it says: Republika Srpska. CPB Samac, Red

8 Cross."

9 Q. If I told you it said Samac municipality Red Cross, would you

10 agree with me?

11 A. Maybe.

12 Q. And in the heading, it says: List of persons receiving

13 humanitarian aid."

14 A. When was this list drafted?

15 Q. Please, ma'am. Answer my questions?

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, I think we shall move faster, because we've

17 got the official translation. We all know what the title says. So just

18 ask questions about whatever, but not ask the witness to read anything,

19 because the translation is already here.

20 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Ma'am, have you looked through this list?

22 A. What do you want me to do?

23 Q. Do you see your name on the list?

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you direct her to the number, please?

25 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 8141

1 Q. 175. Number 175, page 2.

2 A. I can't see my name. I see Drljacic -- oh, my God.

3 Q. Page 2, ma'am. You are looking at page 3.

4 A. I found Bahra Drljacic. Bahra Drljacic was married into Serbia

5 before the war, perhaps 12 years before the war, and she is a citizen of

6 Serbia. She wasn't living in Samac. Then Safet Drljacic died in 1991.

7 He is my brother. Fadila could not be located in Republika Srpska because

8 she was exchanged in 1992.

9 Q. Ma'am, can I please ask you to turn to page 2, number 175, the

10 right upper corner.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you see yourself under number 175?

13 A. That is my name, but I never lived in Republika Srpska before. I

14 left in 1993, on the 24th of December, and Republika Srpska did not exist

15 then.

16 Q. Ma'am, did you receive bread and milk in April 1992 from the

17 office of the Red Cross?

18 A. In 1992, yes, but never in Republika Srpska, where I never lived,

19 until now, when I'm going to return.

20 Q. In Bosanski Samac, in April 1992, did you receive bread and milk

21 from the Red Cross?

22 A. I already said I did, and when we were waiting in line, there is a

23 recording of that. There is footage of that, where you can see that we

24 were standing in the queue wearing those white armbands. The footage was

25 made by Cvijan Marinkovic.

Page 8142

1 Q. Ma'am, you looked through this list, and you see that Muslims,

2 Croats, and Serbs are equally represented, as far as you can judge by the

3 names?

4 A. Excuse me. We are talking about year 1992, and this list is from

5 Republika Srpska.

6 Q. Ma'am, I too am talking about 1992.

7 A. We have nothing more to discuss, because this list originates from

8 Republika Srpska, which came into power in 1995.

9 Q. Ma'am, did you see on this list a number of Muslims, that is,

10 people whom you used to know in 1992 in Bosanski Samac?

11 A. I have seen everything, but I don't want to discuss this list any

12 more.

13 Q. But you have seen a great number of Muslims on the list?

14 A. I don't recognise this list. It could not have been true in 1992,

15 because my sister Bahra wasn't there at the time, and she is still in

16 Serbia.

17 Q. I have finished with this document.

18 A. This is somebody's invention.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Witness, you've been told by the Bench that you

20 don't have to discuss anything else other than the questions that counsel

21 puts to you. That way we shall move much faster.

22 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Counsel, before you move on with the next

23 question, there's no indication of a date on this list, unless I'm missing

24 something somewhere. Is that correct?

25 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as for the time frame

Page 8143

1 of the drafting of this document, we will present evidence in the Defence

2 case. We will prove in which period it was developed and bring witnesses

3 who worked at the time at the Red Cross office in Bosanski Samac. This

4 document in fact originates from the Red Cross of Bosanski Samac.

5 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you very much.

6 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Ms. Drljacic, in your testimony, you also said at one point that

8 after a while, supply with staples was normalised and shops started to

9 work again.

10 A. That is not so. There was only one grocery store where we could

11 buy bread. All the other shops were empty and closed.

12 Q. But you said, in response to a question by the Prosecutor, that

13 the butcher's shop was open and that you could buy meat.

14 A. It was privately owned.

15 Q. And the marketplace was also open and you could buy freely

16 everything that was available and displayed?

17 A. That much is true.

18 Q. So in that respect, all citizens were equal. Those who could

19 afford it could buy anything?

20 A. Yes, with that proviso, if you could afford it.

21 Q. What about flour? Did you get it also from the Red Cross?

22 A. No, we didn't. We bought flour. It cost 12 Deutschmark per one

23 sack of 25 kilos and only those people who had the money could buy it,

24 because people hadn't stocked up, because nobody expected this war.

25 Q. Ma'am, you mentioned also that you had heard from your neighbours

Page 8144

1 about many Muslims and Croats who received flour, edible oil, and some

2 other foodstuffs from the Red Cross, and when you went to some office to

3 get the same, you were not able to.

4 A. That's correct. It was Stari hotel location.

5 Q. But tell me, please: Did you get registered anywhere before you

6 went to the local commune or to the Red Cross office to get your ration of

7 flour, milk and other things? Did you get registered anywhere as somebody

8 who was entitled to humanitarian aid?

9 A. I didn't know you could do that. Who could possibly know? At

10 that place where the distribution was effected, you had to sign up for the

11 things you got.

12 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would now like to

13 tender another document, also drafted by the Red Cross of Bosanski Samac,

14 the social Security Service, titled "Criteria for the distribution of

15 basic necessities to the needy." It is dated 25 June 1992. And I also

16 have an official, authorised translation. The number -- [Previous

17 translation continues] [In English] ...004873. [Interpretation] Can we

18 please get a number for this document, unless there are objections from

19 the side of the Prosecution.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution?

21 MR. WEINER: No objection, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number, please.

23 THE REGISTRAR: This will be D43/3 and D43/3 ter, Your Honours.

24 Thank you.

25 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 8145

1 Q. Ma'am, have you looked at this document?

2 A. I have. I don't know what you want to do with it.

3 Q. Tell me, ma'am: You didn't register anywhere at the local commune

4 or at the Red Cross office to apply for humanitarian aid?

5 A. I didn't register or apply because I didn't know. If I had known

6 about this, I would have thought that, as somebody aged over 60, I was

7 entitled to it. I think you could do this at a later stage, after

8 receiving the aid. If you had -- took the time to post other notices and

9 proclamations, you could as well have posted this one on our entrance

10 door.

11 Q. Ma'am, were you entitled to receive a pension in April 1992?

12 A. I was, and the last pension that my brother and I received were

13 not enough, taken together, to buy an egg.

14 Q. So can I understand it that you received a pension in Bosanski

15 Samac in April 1992?

16 A. I don't know under what criteria, but my brother's and my pension

17 taken together at the time were enough to buy only one egg at the

18 marketplace.

19 Q. Could you please look at the bottom of this paper and see who is

20 signed.

21 A. Velimir Maslic.

22 Q. Coordinator of Red Cross affairs and social services?

23 A. That's the gentleman whom I approached. That is my next-door

24 neighbour, whom I approached for advice whether to ask to be exchanged or

25 not.

Page 8146

1 Q. You didn't approach him for advice as to whether you are entitled

2 to apply for humanitarian aid?

3 A. I didn't see him at all, and I never went to the municipality

4 until that time. I didn't even know that he was working there. And when

5 I saw him, I approached him, as a neighbour. But when the war began, he

6 stopped being my neighbour. He no longer lived at his place.

7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I've finished with this document.

8 Your Honours, I would now like to tender another document, if we

9 have enough time, that is. We have a couple of minutes left, I believe.


11 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] It's document - again from the Red

12 Cross, dated 22nd May 1992, titled "List of persons receiving bread and

13 milk from the Red Cross in the fourth quarter." We also have an

14 authorised translation for the Office of the Prosecutor. [In English]

15 004822 and Y0004823.

16 Any objection from the Prosecutor?

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Perhaps we can have our break and then the

18 Prosecution can indicate whether or not they object to the document.

19 We shall have our break and continue the proceedings at 1615

20 hours.

21 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

22 --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Krgovic, you continue cross-examination.

24 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have the number for

25 this document.

Page 8147

1 MR. KRGOVIC: Any objection from the Prosecutor?

2 MR. WEINER: No objection.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Can we have the number, please.

4 THE REGISTRAR: This will be D44/3 and D44/3 ter, Your Honours.

5 Thank you.

6 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Ma'am, could you please take a look at this document. In May of

8 1992, were any of these people on this list living in Samac, as far as you

9 know?

10 A. I don't know if Hajro had already died, Hajro Vukovic. I'm very

11 glad that I got this list, if this list corresponds to the date. I am

12 glad because, as far as you know, the city of Samac had a majority of

13 Muslims. So what happened to all those Muslims that are not on the list

14 and did not have the right to receive food?

15 Q. So if you look at this list, half of the names are Muslim; is that

16 correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 A. But I was asking you: How many Muslims lived in the fourth

20 quarter who did not have the right to get this humanitarian aid that we

21 were supposed to receive? This must have been a donation of some sort.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Drljacic, do not ask questions to counsel. He

23 is not a witness. So just answer his questions.

24 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Ma'am, so we can conclude that of the people on this list who were

Page 8148

1 receiving humanitarian aid, the majority were Muslim; is that correct?

2 A. That's correct, but there were 50 more --

3 Q. I would please like you to just keep to my questions. The

4 majority are Muslims?

5 A. Yes, but a small percentage of the people living there, the

6 Muslims living there.

7 Q. Please answer my questions only with yes or no. And in May of

8 1992 they lived in Bosanski Samac; is that correct?

9 A. I guess so. I don't know all of them.

10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to tender

11 another document. This is a document also belonging to the Red Cross,

12 dated 18th of September, 1992. This is also a list of the Red Cross in

13 Bosanski Samac. It's a list of people that are receiving bread and milk

14 for free in August of 1992. We also have an official translation of this

15 document. I would like the usher to assist me in handing these out. This

16 document has also been given to the Prosecution. I gave the ERN number to

17 the Prosecution a couple of minutes ago as well.

18 [In English] Any objection from the Prosecutor?

19 MR. WEINER: No objection.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the number, please.

21 THE REGISTRAR: It will be D45/3 and D45/3 ter, Your Honours.

22 Thank you.

23 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Ma'am, did you take a look at this document?

25 A. Yes, I did. There's no date.

Page 8149

1 Q. Could you please look at the letterhead. The date is 18th of

2 August.

3 A. The only thing it says is 1992. There is no date.

4 Q. Could you please look at the last part of the letterhead. On the

5 first page.

6 A. Oh, you mean below. Okay. So what next?

7 Q. Ma'am, do you know any of these people? You said while you were

8 answering the questions of the Prosecutor that you know everybody in

9 Bosanski Samac. Do you know any of these people?

10 A. Just a moment. Let me take a look.

11 Q. Ma'am, number 77?

12 THE INTERPRETER: 71, interpreter correction.

13 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Semsa Memsic. Do you know her?

15 A. Not by that name.

16 Q. If I could remind you that she was the mother of Buca Memsic.

17 He was a leader of the SDA and one of the members of the armed units of

18 the SDA.

19 A. I don't know her by this last name or first name. I think I know

20 all the Mesics. I don't know this name, though.

21 Q. She worked in Borovo as a shop assistant. Oh, I apologise.

22 Semsa. Okay. So what next?

23 Q. Did she live in Samac at this time?

24 A. In August, I'm not sure. I think she left. I don't think she was

25 exchanged, but I think she left. I don't know when, however. I wouldn't

Page 8150

1 be able to tell.

2 Q. In this list, ma'am, there's also a lot of Muslims and Croats,

3 less so than on the first list, but still a large number; is that correct?

4 A. I can't say whether these people lived in Samac at the time or

5 not. How could I know this?

6 Q. But there is a lot of Muslims on this list, and Croats. Their

7 names are on this list.

8 A. Yes, that's correct.

9 Q. Number 43, Hasan Velic. Did you know him?

10 A. I knew him very well.

11 Q. Is this the father of Dragan Delic, who was arrested and testified

12 in front of this Chamber?

13 A. Yes, that's correct, but who can claim that he got what it says

14 here.

15 Q. Could you please just answer my questions. I think this would be

16 better also because of your health, otherwise we might stay here until

17 midnight. Please, tell me: Was he in Samac at that moment, in August?

18 Did you see him around town?

19 A. I do not remember. I don't know.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 A. I know only that he was beaten up.

22 Q. In August of 1998 - I apologise, of 1992 - what were the

23 conditions -- in Samac when it comes to buying basic foodstuffs or

24 electricity, was much worse than in April for all citizens of Samac. I'm

25 talking generally speaking. Is that correct?

Page 8151

1 A. Yes, that's correct. We had no electricity, no water. Many of us

2 didn't have money to buy food.

3 Q. Could you please tell me the following: You were receiving

4 pensions regularly all the time that you were in Samac, although they

5 might have been very small?

6 A. We did receive them, but that doesn't mean that we could live from

7 them.

8 Q. So the pensions were received by everybody: Muslims, Croats, and

9 Serbs?

10 A. I wouldn't know that.

11 Q. But your neighbours - Muslims, Croats, and your brother and your

12 relatives that you knew - were receiving pensions?

13 A. Yes, and I was receiving mine as well, but there was no way I

14 could live off of it.

15 Q. Because of the inflation, I assume, which was enormous; is that

16 correct?

17 A. I guess so.

18 Q. Ma'am, while you testified, you mentioned refugees. You mentioned

19 that refugees showed up in Bosanski Samac, even that some Serb refugees,

20 if I understood correctly, were placed in your brother's establishment

21 after this establishment, this shop was closed?

22 A. There were no Serb refugees in Samac while I was there, until

23 December of 1993. I don't know of any refugees. I know that one group

24 came from Bijeljina. They protested for two days in the school --

25 actually, in front of the school, in the playground area. They said that

Page 8152

1 there was 200 of them. They came from Bijeljina and they protested

2 because they did not get what they were promised. And then they came to

3 Samac. They heard that there were empty houses there. One family that I

4 saw move into a destroyed house, this house belonged to Ante Saric, and

5 there was an old lady there, much -- I think she was older than I am now.

6 They all protested. And this grandmother told us that they were told to

7 go to Prud and that all the houses there were empty, that there was a lot

8 of land there. And they said if we had wanted to work on the land, then

9 we wouldn't come here, and that's not what we wanted. This was a Serb

10 refugee.

11 Q. So I was talking generally speaking. So there were refugees from

12 other parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina or Serbia?

13 A. I don't know. I only know of this first instance. This was

14 already happening in 1993, in the summer of 1993. I don't know exactly

15 which month it was.

16 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to tender

17 a document of the Red Cross in Samac, dated the 3rd of November, 1992.

18 This is a letter of the president of the Red Cross in Bosanski Samac,

19 Milorad Mihajlovic, to the UNHCR. And this letter is about the numbers

20 and also the housing of refugees. The Prosecution has seen -- we have

21 disclosed this document to the Prosecution. We also have an official

22 translation of this document.

23 [In English] Any objection from the Prosecutor?

24 MR. WEINER: No.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number.

Page 8153

1 THE REGISTRAR: It will be D46/3 and D46/3 ter, Your Honours.

2 Thank you.

3 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Ma'am, did you see this document?

5 A. Well, what can I say about it?

6 Q. Do you know Milorad Mihajlovic, the president of the Red Cross

7 before and during the war?

8 A. I cannot remember.

9 Q. Did you read this fact that was given to the UNHCR which says that

10 there's 5.806 refugees, of which 3.480 are women?

11 A. No.

12 Q. So you're still claiming that in November of 1992 there were no

13 refugees in Bosanski Samac?

14 A. I know that while I was there --

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

16 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, if you look at this, this document says

17 municipality of Bosanski Samac, which is the town of Bosanski Samac and

18 all of the surrounding villages. She has been talking about the town of

19 Bosanski Samac, the town itself, where she lives, as opposed to the

20 municipality, which is kind of like a county or a municipal area, which

21 takes in a lot of villages, hamlets, towns. We're talking two different

22 matters here.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Krgovic.

24 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can I please respond to

25 this? I asked this question -- I know that it's about the municipality,

Page 8154

1 but while the witness testified to the Prosecution, she was talking about

2 the conditions in the municipality. She was talking about Zasavica and

3 other municipalities. So I assume that she knew about these issues, about

4 the whole municipality.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I wouldn't -- I can't really

6 know, because we had no information.

7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness mentioned five or six

8 families in Zasavica.

9 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I asked about the town of Bosanski

10 Samac, and that's what we were referring to. When we talked about

11 Zasavica and outside areas, we would refer to them by name. That's why I

12 questioned about Zasavica. It's the question I thought was taken out of

13 context, Your Honour, and it was an improper question.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Krgovic, I think you understand what the

15 Prosecution is talking about. Either you are talking about refugees from

16 the town itself or the municipality, which includes other villages around

17 the town.

18 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Ma'am, let me ask you the following: In the town of Bosanski

20 Samac, from what you say, there were no refugees.

21 A. Not in such high numbers that you would notice it on the streets,

22 definitely not.

23 Q. Thank you. Ma'am, let me ask you the following: We're talking

24 about April of 1992. Did you notice in your neighbourhood any refugees,

25 or in the area where you lived?

Page 8155

1 A. No.

2 Q. Do you know that in April of 1992, December 1993, there had been a

3 large number of Muslim refugees that came from Zvornik, Bijeljina, and

4 other war torn areas and they came to Bosanski Samac?

5 A. That is not true.

6 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to tender

7 a document. This is a document of the Red Cross of Bosanski Samac. The

8 document is dated 17th of July, 1992 and it is about receipt of the Red

9 Cross -- certificate, actually, of the Red Cross, with which a certain

10 person is given a refugee status. This document has been disclosed to the

11 Prosecution, and we also have an official translation which we would like

12 to show to the Chamber.

13 Q. Ma'am, did you take a look at this document?

14 A. I'm not done reading it yet.

15 Q. I apologise.

16 MR. WEINER: I have no objection. In fact, Your Honour, to save

17 time, I have no objection to his other documents, the other documents he

18 has too. You don't even have to stop and ask.


20 THE REGISTRAR: It will be D47/3 and D47/3 ter, Your Honours.

21 Thank you.

22 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. So did you take a look at this document, ma'am?

24 A. Yes, I did. So what do you want from me now?

25 Q. The name of this person, Nedzija Halilovic, son of Nedzad, is this

Page 8156

1 a Muslim name?

2 A. I don't know this man or woman.

3 Q. I asked you whether this was a Muslim name.

4 A. Any old name could have been written here. I don't know this

5 person.

6 Q. My question was not if you knew him. My question was if this was

7 a Muslim name that was on this document, a name belonging to a man of

8 Muslim or Bosniak ethnicity, if that's how you would like me to call it.

9 A. Yes, of course it's a Muslim name, but what do you want from me

10 about this?

11 Q. All I wanted is your answer, which you just gave me, and thank you

12 very much.

13 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have another document

14 that is dated 9 of July 1972 [As interpreted]. This is also a certificate

15 of the Red Cross in Bosanski Samac, with which a refugee is given that

16 status. This document, just like the previous one, has been disclosed to

17 the Prosecution, and we also have the English translation. I would like

18 the usher to take the document from me.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number, please.

20 THE REGISTRAR: It will be D48/3 and D48/3 ter, Your Honours.

21 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Ma'am, did you take a look at this document?

23 A. Yes, I did.

24 Q. Lucija Sebesic. I would say, based on her name and the name of

25 her parent that this is a Croat. Is that correct?

Page 8157

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. Lucija is a Croatian name, Sebesic is also a Croatian last name?

3 A. I never thought about who was Serbian and who was Croatian. I

4 don't know.

5 Q. And Donja Dubica, where this person was born, has a majority of

6 Croatian inhabitants; is that correct?

7 A. How would I know?

8 Q. I'm asking only if you know.

9 A. Well, I don't.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MR. KRGOVIC: I've finished with this document.

12 Q. [Interpretation] Ma'am, do you know that the Red Cross of Bosanski

13 Samac took equal care of refugees, both of Muslim and Serbian ethnicity?

14 Yes or no.

15 A. I don't know that there were any Muslim refugees, and I don't know

16 how much care they took of them. How would I know these things?

17 Q. Ma'am, could you please tell me the following: Did the Red Cross

18 in Bosanski Samac distribute humanitarian aid to everybody, regardless of

19 their ethnic origin? Yes or no.

20 A. No.

21 Q. When you testified to the Prosecution, you mentioned that you

22 heard from your Muslim neighbours that they received humanitarian aid:

23 Flour, oil, and other things. Is that correct?

24 A. I heard that, and I went to ask for help, and I said that the son

25 of Cviko Bosic told me I could get that from Alija, and I never went back.

Page 8158

1 Q. Ma'am, are you familiar with the fact that the distribution of

2 humanitarian aid was organised according to city quarters, city

3 districts? Are you aware of that fact?

4 A. Well, I went to wherever I heard that food was being distributed,

5 into the old hotel, Stari hotel. I don't know which neighbourhood this

6 was.

7 Q. Do you know that there were actually four points where this aid

8 was being distributed?

9 A. I have no idea.

10 Q. Do you know that criteria were set up based on which humanitarian

11 was distributed?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Do you know that since you did not register and you did not meet

14 the criteria for receiving humanitarian aid as somebody who was receiving

15 their pension, you were not even entitled to it?

16 A. I didn't even know registration was necessary. I have no idea. I

17 can't say anything.

18 Q. All right. Let's move on. You mentioned in your direct

19 examination the work obligation your brother had. You said that at the

20 beginning he did his work obligation in his own shop, and later, if I

21 understood you correctly, he went to another place.

22 A. He got a new boss, Milos, in his own shop. At any time of day or

23 night, any Serb could come and say, "Chief, I need a window fixed." And

24 my brother didn't dare ask where or when, at any time of day or night.

25 Q. Please, you have already told us this. Can I ask you just this:

Page 8159

1 Was your brother, under his work assignment, in the Staklorad company,

2 across the street from Rajco's cafe?

3 A. No.

4 Q. And he did not perform his work obligation in that enterprise?

5 A. No. Before the war he was a private entrepreneur.

6 Q. I'm talking about 1992 and 1993, when there were no longer any

7 materials in his own shop. Where did he perform his work obligation?

8 A. I don't know. He was taken to various locations, such as

9 Obudovac, Odzak. He was even there when the Catholic church was destroyed

10 in Odzak. He was in the immediate vicinity of the site, in a hotel in

11 Odzak, and that church was across the street from the hotel.

12 Q. Please, that's a topic I'm not interested in. I only want to

13 know, since you mentioned in your direct examination, in response to one

14 of the questions, that two men in uniform appeared and told you they would

15 take you to your apartment. You replied you couldn't go because you were

16 waiting for your brother to come to lunch.

17 A. My brother was there when this happened. He had already come to

18 lunch. But I said I would not go before he came to lunch.

19 Q. So he came for both breakfast and lunch, if he was in Samac?

20 A. That's correct. If he was in Samac, he came in twice, for

21 breakfast and lunch. But he never knew himself where he would be going on

22 any particular day.

23 Q. Let me ask you this: You mentioned that the telephones were

24 disconnected. This will be a small digression. Was there any shelling at

25 the time when telephones were disconnected?

Page 8160

1 A. That was right at the beginning. I don't know if ten days after

2 the --

3 Q. Are we talking about shelling?

4 A. No, there was no shelling at the time.

5 Q. When did shelling begin?

6 A. I don't remember, but there was shelling. I can't remember when

7 it began, but it was heavy.

8 Q. And the shells came from the other side of the front line, I

9 suppose, if you know.

10 A. I cannot say yes or no. I don't know.

11 Q. Is it possible -- I'm not claiming that you did any such thing,

12 but it would have been possible to inform somebody outside on the phone of

13 possible targets.

14 A. Telephones were disconnected only in Muslim and Croat homes, not

15 to a single Serb.

16 Q. Are you sure about that?

17 A. I'm perfectly sure. All the telephones of my Serb neighbours kept

18 ringing.

19 Q. Including your neighbour Mr. Maslic, I suppose.

20 A. Probably, if he didn't have a phone in the other place where he

21 lived.

22 Q. Ma'am, in your testimony during direct examination, you mentioned

23 that at the time you were rather ill and you went to the health centre of

24 Bosanski Samac to get therapy and medication; is that correct?

25 A. I went there for a check-up, but I didn't get a check-up or any

Page 8161

1 other service. The doctor told me, "We have no medicines." Although I

2 was pretty certain that they did have medication from donations, I

3 couldn't get them.

4 Q. But in any case, you went to the health centre in Bosanski Samac?

5 A. I did.

6 Q. Do you know that the health centre of Bosanski Samac was staffed

7 mainly by Croats and Muslims?

8 A. Under work obligation, yes.

9 Q. Do you know about Mesud Nogic, who was chief of department?

10 A. Yes, under work obligation. He wasn't chief of department; he was

11 a slave, like everyone else, a servant.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's request. Could counsel please

13 slow down.

14 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Azra Alijagic he was a doctor and a Muslim; isn't that correct?

16 A. Yes. She married a Serb and they disappeared from Samac that same

17 moment.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, the interpreters would like you to slow

19 down when you're asking questions. And also, can the witness please pause

20 before starting to answer so that the interpretation can be completed.

21 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Ma'am, Ruzmir Jusufovic also worked in the health centre under

23 work obligation?

24 A. Mr. Ruzmir worked at the hospital. I don't know that he worked at

25 the health centre, under work obligation. His wife worked at the pharmacy

Page 8162

1 and he worked at the hospital.

2 Q. How about Dr. Harcinovic, a Muslim? Did he also work at the

3 health centre of Bosanski Samac?

4 A. I know that he did before the war, and I think he was among the

5 first who swam across the river to Croatia.

6 Q. How about Ruza Masic?

7 A. I don't know the name.

8 Q. Brdar Ruza Masic?

9 A. I knew her. What do you want?

10 Q. Did she work at the health centre of Bosanski Samac under work

11 obligation?

12 A. Yes. Yes, for a while, but then she disappeared from Samac.

13 Q. Ma'am, what was the name of the doctor who refused to give you

14 medication or conduct the check-up?

15 A. I don't know. I was barely aware of my own name.

16 Q. What were the living conditions during your stay in Samac? Did

17 you have blackouts all the time?

18 A. Occasionally we had electricity.

19 Q. I suppose you had problems with water as well.

20 A. Certainly.

21 Q. Which means necessarily that you also had shortages of heating.

22 A. Certainly.

23 Q. Shellings were frequent, weren't they?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So on balance, the conditions were hard on all ethnicities?

Page 8163

1 A. That's not correct. Serbs got firewood, they got wood-burning

2 ovens, which were delivered to them from villages, and we had neither.

3 And even if we had received firewood, I, for one, had no place to keep it,

4 because I live on the third floor.

5 Q. Ma'am, did Serbs have electricity?

6 A. They didn't. They had stoves and firewood.

7 Q. Did they have water?

8 A. When I had no water, they didn't have any either, but then we got

9 it from the artesian wells.

10 Q. Did shells hit all targets equally?

11 A. Serbs were not in the streets. They were always in safe places,

12 whereas Muslims had to go out to work, even during shelling. So it was

13 mainly Muslims who were killed by the shells.

14 Q. So you are saying that not a single Serb was killed by a shell?

15 A. I only know about Savo, a mailman, who got killed sometime at the

16 beginning. He was killed by one of the first shells and I can even tell

17 you where exactly where he was killed. I don't know of any other Serb

18 killed by a shell.

19 Q. I'm through with this topic. You also mentioned in your testimony

20 that throughout the time you were in Samac, page 48 or 47 of the

21 unofficial transcript, you saw Miroslav Tadic.

22 A. Yes, I did see him. Every time I was in the street, he was there

23 too.

24 Q. And he had a beard?

25 A. Correct.

Page 8164

1 Q. When was the first time you saw him after the 17th of April, 1992?

2 A. Well, I wouldn't know the date, but he was there.

3 Q. So right after the 17th of April, 1992, he was there?

4 A. I told you, I don't know the date, but he was present. He was

5 there in Samac.

6 Q. Where did you used to see him?

7 A. In the street, most often. In the marketplace I would see him

8 walking around. I asked people what it was that he had. It's not a

9 rifle, because a rifle is longer, and it wasn't a pistol, because a pistol

10 is shorter, and they told me it was a Scorpion. He always had it in his

11 right hand with a finger on the trigger. His appearance was intimidating

12 to our people.

13 Q. When you saw him he had a beard?

14 A. He did.

15 Q. And he was in uniform?

16 A. He was.

17 Q. And you used to see him in Dragalici during your exchange?

18 A. Yes. In Dragalici. I'm not sure if he was there in Dragalici,

19 but he was there all the time up to the moment when he said that the

20 Croats won't have us and that we had no place to return because those

21 pests had already occupied our homes. And that was the last time I saw

22 him, although I believe he was present even in Dragalici, but I don't

23 remember seeing him when we got off the bus.

24 Q. And he was in uniform with this Scorpion?

25 A. I don't remember. I don't know.

Page 8165

1 Q. I'm asking you this because during direct examination you said

2 that throughout the war he wore a uniform and carried this Scorpion with

3 his finger constantly on the trigger.

4 A. What are you saying?

5 Q. With his finger on the trigger.

6 A. That's correct, walking in the streets of Samac, and especially in

7 the marketplace.

8 Q. And you are sure that in those first days when you saw him, he had

9 a beard?

10 A. I didn't pay attention really. I still see him in my mind with

11 this beard, with this Scorpion, and I hate to even think about it.

12 Q. So you're not sure that you saw Miroslav Tadic on the venue of the

13 exchange in Dragalici?

14 A. It wasn't an exchange. I told you this already. They just took

15 us out of the bus and moved us to another bus.

16 Q. We'll come back to that, ma'am. I'm asking you this: Are you

17 certain whether you saw him in Dragalici or not?

18 A. In that very place, no, but he was part of our escort, and while

19 we had this escort, I saw him all the time walking around the bus, and I

20 saw him before he went off to Gradiska to spend the night together with

21 this Maslic. And I saw Maslic personally -- we must have been in

22 Dragalici, but we --

23 Q. This is what I want to ask you. You were in Dragalici all the

24 time when you came to the separation line?

25 A. Yes, but nobody would accept us, nor could they turn us back.

Page 8166

1 I've already told you this.

2 Q. When Miroslav Tadic got on the bus and told you this, was it in

3 Dragalici, where you were standing, parked?

4 A. I don't know. It was some place on the highway, on the Croatian

5 side, when he got in --

6 Q. That's what I want to know. On the highway, on the Croatian side?

7 A. Yes, but it was under Serb control, Serb -- I don't know what it's

8 called.

9 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt. Was he in uniform? Was he in uniform,

10 ma'am?

11 A. Who?

12 Q. Miroslav Tadic, when he allegedly got on the bus to tell you this.

13 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you even what I wore at the time. I

14 don't know.

15 Q. Did he have this Scorpion gun?

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. And do you know that this event you mentioned actually happened in

18 an area protected by the UN?

19 A. We saw blue helmets and we were overjoyed to see them. They were

20 on the bridge, which was closed to traffic, and in Gradiska we crossed

21 over a pontoon bridge and we were happy that we were going to get the blue

22 helmets protection. However, we only saw them on that bridge and never

23 again.

24 Q. Let me ask you this, ma'am: This Velja Maslic whom you mentioned,

25 you saw him on the venue of the exchange in Dragalici?

Page 8167

1 A. Yes. He was the one who directed me. He said, "Hajra, where are

2 you going? You should be going that way, together with the others."

3 Q. Please answer with a yes or no.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Ma'am, do you know that your neighbour, Velimir Maslic, was the

6 chairman of the Exchange Commission for the territory of Bosanski Samac?

7 Yes or no.

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. When you went to register and apply for exchange, you went to the

10 Red Cross office, didn't you?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you registered together with your brother?

13 A. No. I don't know when my brother applied. I went there alone and

14 I was happy to find Veljo there. He had "minister" written on his door.

15 Q. Thank you. About this exchange, you mentioned there were two

16 buses: One carrying people from Samac and another carrying people from

17 Zasavica. Is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you know that 40 families of indigent population of Croat

20 ethnicity left Zasavica at the same time as you did?

21 A. That's not true. There were only a few persons.

22 Q. Did you talk to anyone in Zasavica out of those people who left

23 together with you?

24 A. Of course. When we moved to the Croatian bus. Pero, my

25 son-in-law's sister, was sitting next to me.

Page 8168

1 Q. Did they tell you that the relatives of Mr. Pandurevic demanded

2 that they be sent for an exchanged and moved from this area?

3 A. I don't know. We didn't talk about it.

4 Q. Which Ivo Pandurevic do you mean?

5 A. Ivica Pandurevic from Zasavica.

6 A. I know one Ivo Pandurevic, an old man from Zasavica. I don't know

7 whether he was in Samac at the time.

8 Q. Did you see at that time a truck carrying people from Zasavica?

9 A. They were carrying dead bodies for exchange, and they also

10 collected things of those people from Zasavica, and all those who turned

11 their things over to that truck had to pay 10 Deutschmark.

12 Q. And this truck full of things and people from Zasavica crossed

13 over to the other side; correct?

14 A. Yes, with the dead bodies and the luggage.

15 Q. Ma'am, do you know, although you already mentioned this, that at

16 this time, between the 24th and the 25th of December, 1993, a war was

17 raging between Croats and Muslims in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

18 A. I know that.

19 Q. Do you know that there were problems about your exchange because

20 Croats did not want to receive Muslims in exchange?

21 A. That's not correct. Croats told us that they hadn't even known

22 about our group. If they had, they might have reached an agreement.

23 Because there was nobody ready to be exchanged for us. Nobody was lined

24 up in Croatia to cross over.

25 Q. Ma'am, please answer with a yes or no. Do you know that there

Page 8169

1 were problems involved in this exchange because there was a war between

2 Croats and Muslims?

3 A. It was Christmas Eve and people didn't even know about this

4 exchange. I strenuously insist that this was the case.

5 Q. Ma'am, do you know that several days later a large group of Serbs

6 crossed over to the other side, from Croatia, that is, to the territory of

7 Bosanski Samac municipality?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. Ma'am, in your testimony in direct examination, when the

10 Prosecutor asked you a question, you said that it was an open secret in

11 Bosanski Samac that bribes were paid before an exchange.

12 A. Yes. Everybody told me this, but only after I crossed over to the

13 Croatian side.

14 Q. Please answer my questions. You said it was an open secret, but

15 you hadn't heard about it while you were in Bosanski Samac.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You will agree, then, that it was not an open secret in Bosanski

18 Samac during your stay; it's something that you learned later.

19 A. The people who found out about this went there and paid, and they

20 were happy to save their heads.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: It's okay. You've given up. All right.

22 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. But during your stay in Samac, you didn't know about this, you

24 hadn't heard about this?

25 A. I didn't. But everybody who left before me did know. Everybody

Page 8170

1 who got out the same way, they told me.

2 Q. Just another thing: You said in response to a question from the

3 Prosecution that the wife of one of your nephews gave some jewellery in a

4 box to Sveto Vasovic and that she immediately went to an exchange without

5 being placed on any list beforehand; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to show this witness

8 one document which has already been admitted in closed session. I believe

9 it was introduced to Witness M. The number is D26/3 ter ID.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm wondering whether it wasn't under seal.

11 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm not sure. I would like the help

12 of the Registry.

13 THE REGISTRAR: No, Your Honours, it was not requested under seal

14 for this document. It was admitted, but not under seal.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

16 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Ma'am, what is the name of this person, Fadila?

18 A. Fadila Drljacic.

19 Q. She has two children?

20 A. Correct.

21 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to show this document

22 to the witness. And perhaps we should put it on the ELMO for everyone to

23 see.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, I object. Republika

25 Srpska did not exist at the time.

Page 8171

1 JUDGE MUMBA: We've been through that. Just answer the questions

2 from counsel.

3 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Ma'am, what you see is a list of people --

5 A. This document is from Serbian Republic. At that time it did not

6 exist.

7 Q. Please turn the other page. Please look at number 84. It says

8 "Fadila Drljacic and two children." Is that the wife of your brother's

9 son?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. This clashes with your claim that she was not on the list, that

12 she only went to be exchanged because she paid a bribe.

13 MR. WEINER: I object. That does not clash with her claim. When

14 she made those bribes, she was not on the list. And if you look at this,

15 I can waive for redirect examination. Her name is almost on the bottom.

16 So when these are placed in relation to 80 names before her. It doesn't

17 clash.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It's not conclusive.

19 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Ma'am, you said a moment ago, if I understood you correctly, that

21 she may have been on the list, but he wouldn't let her get on the bus.

22 A. That's possible too.

23 Q. So which is true: That she wasn't on the list and she paid him a

24 bribe, or that she was on the list?

25 A. How could I possibly know?

Page 8172

1 Q. Thank you. That's all I wanted to know. Let me ask you another

2 thing. You learnt about this indirectly through your brother and your

3 nephew?

4 A. Fadila herself told me about this.

5 Q. After --?

6 A. After my exchange.

7 Q. Ma'am, you didn't pay anything to get on the list?

8 A. No. No. It was in their interests to clear us out.

9 Q. During the direct examination, you mentioned another case of

10 bribery, and you named Juro Krajinovic.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Who allegedly paid 5.000 Deutschmark to Miroslav Tadic in order to

13 get out of Bosanski Samac, and you said that Miroslav Tadic drove him and

14 his family in his own car.

15 A. I maintain that he drove out his family. I don't know about the

16 man himself. He was detained.

17 Q. And you're sure about what you're saying?

18 A. I'm sure. I was told about this. Miroslav Tadic knows that my

19 sister's daughter is married in Zasavica and Jure and this niece's husband

20 are close.

21 Q. And they told you that Miroslav Tadic drove them out in exchange

22 for 5.000 Deutschmark?

23 A. Correct.

24 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to tender

25 a document. It has been disclosed to the OTP, ERN number [In English]

Page 8173

1 0005602 [Interpretation] It is a list of people who were exchanged in

2 Dragalici on 18 September 1992. Unfortunately, I don't have an English

3 translation. We see on this list some persons who were mentioned by the

4 witness some time ago, and since we learned about this claim of the

5 witness only on Thursday, we couldn't get the translation in time. So we

6 only have the B/C/S version. And I would kindly ask for an identification

7 number, and I would like then to show this document to the witness. I

8 provided the interpreters with this document to facilitate their job. It's

9 very brief.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have a number for identification purposes

11 only.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. It will be D49/3 ter ID.

13 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Ma'am, did you take a look at this document?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. Could you please read out everything that is highlighted.

17 A. "List of exchanged persons in Dragalici --"

18 Q. Could you please slow down.

19 A. " -- on the day of September 18, 1992. Left, under 3, Jure

20 Krajinovic, son of Ilija, born 1995, economist. Gospava Krajinovic,

21 called -- nicknamed Goja, with two under-aged children, the wife of Jure."

22 Q. And the signature, commission for the exchange of prisoners?

23 A. This document does not prove to me in any way that it is true.

24 Q. Could you just tell the following to me: This family that is

25 written down here, Jure Krajinovic and Gospava Krajinovic, are these the

Page 8174

1 same people that you mentioned?

2 A. Yes, that's correct. These are the same people. This is the

3 family. I would like to add the following: As far as I know, the

4 exchanges always involved a lot of people, and I don't see why this

5 exchange would only involve such a small number.

6 Q. Could you please read the letterhead up in the corner. You didn't

7 read that.

8 A. Again it says "Republika Srpska," and again I am denying this

9 fact, because at that time Republika Srpska did not exist.

10 Q. Could you please read on. I am interested in you -- I would like

11 you to read the following --

12 A. Exchange of persons.

13 Q. I am going to read it out and you can just agree that what I read

14 out is correct. "Commission for the exchange of prisoners and arrested

15 civilians."

16 A. Where is that written?

17 Q. Below Serbian municipality of Samac. And then it says

18 "Samac, 18th of September, 1992."

19 A. And?

20 Q. Is it correct that what I just read out is written in this

21 document?

22 A. Yes, it does, but how can I know that this document is true?

23 Q. So, ma'am, of all the people, including your cousin, you heard

24 that they paid 5.000 dollars -- Deutschmarks?

25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter correction, Deutschmarks.

Page 8175

1 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. So Miroslav Tadic would transfer them out of Bosanski Samac?

3 A. I said that only about Jure. I don't know about the others.

4 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions, Your

5 Honours. Thank you.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pisarevic.

7 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

8 Cross-examined by Mr. Pisarevic:

9 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mrs. Hajrija.

10 A. Good afternoon, Mr. Pisarevic.

11 Q. My name is Borislav Pisarevic.

12 A. How do you do.

13 Q. I represent the defence of Mr. Simo Zaric. Before I ask you a

14 number of questions, I would like to say the following on behalf of my

15 client: He would like to express his deepest regret for everything that

16 you and other townspeople of Samac survived in this unfortunate conflict

17 that happened on the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

18 A. We needed help, and not his apologies.

19 Q. I would like to turn your attention to some issues. Although my

20 learned colleague asked you to wait a little bit before you start

21 answering my question, I would like to ask you again to refrain from

22 commenting on the events. What you have to understand is that you are a

23 witness here and you have to testify about the facts and events. I think

24 that in this way we can make this process that we have to undergo much

25 easier.

Page 8176

1 Ma'am, you said before this Honourable Court that you lived in the

2 Pero Bosic Street?

3 A. Pero Bosic Street number 50.

4 Q. Thank you. Did you live on the third or the fourth floor?

5 A. On the third.

6 Q. Thank you. This is a building that also contains the Privredna

7 Banka Sarajevo premises; is that correct?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. Immediately next to your building there is the building called

10 Carrington; is that correct?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. The movie theatre is also there?

13 A. The movie theatre was between our two buildings. We shared a

14 joint yard.

15 Q. That was my next question. So your building, the building that

16 you lived in, and the Carrington building and the movie theatre, are

17 around the yard and the parking lot?

18 A. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "parking lot."

19 Q. The place where cars were parked.

20 A. Yes. My building and the Carrington building had a joint yard,

21 but they had nothing to do with the movie theatre, because there was a

22 separate wall that was separating the movie theatre from us.

23 Q. Would you agree that the movie theatre building closed this yard

24 from the west?

25 A. That's correct.

Page 8177

1 Q. Thank you. This building that you lived in, and you still live in

2 it, from what I hear, was entered from this yard?

3 A. You could enter it from the Pero Bosic Street. You entered my

4 entrance from that street. I lived in the first entrance. Those that

5 lived in the second entrance would enter their building from the yard, but

6 I was entering the street from -- directly from the street direction.

7 Q. Thank you. In this same building, Safet Hadzialijagic, called

8 Policeman, also resided; is that correct?

9 A. Yes, in the other part of the building.

10 Q. You are familiar with the fact that Safet Hadzialijagic, called

11 Coner was the head of the water supply system in Bosanski Samac?

12 A. Before the war.

13 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, we have just one clarification. In

14 the transcript, page 64, line 8, it says "policeman." It is not a

15 policeman. It is Coner. It's a nickname and has nothing to do with

16 police. It doesn't mean in our language policeman or anything like that.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, I see. So instead of the word "policeman," it

18 should just be Coner. That's the nickname. All right.

19 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 Q. So Safet Hadzialijagic, called Coner, is a Muslim; is that

21 correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you know Mihajlo Topolovac, nicknamed Mile?

24 A. No, I don't.

25 Q. I will remind you. He is a retired police commander in Samac.

Page 8178

1 A. Where did he live?

2 Q. In the same street and the same house where Safet Hadzialijagic

3 used to live.

4 A. Believe me, up until the war, I didn't even know who lived in my

5 entrance. I don't know. Maybe if I saw him, I would recognise him. Just

6 like you. Well, I did actually know your name as well, but this Topolovac

7 as well, I didn't know him.

8 Q. Okay. Do you know Mr. Vaso Antic? He was a journalist and the

9 director of Radio Samac.

10 A. The Serbian Radio Samac?

11 Q. Both the Serbian and the one before the 17th.

12 A. To tell you the truth, I met him during the war. I hadn't known

13 him before. I also met his wife then. I knew where she worked. I knew

14 her by sight, but I didn't know her name. He lived in the other part of

15 my building.

16 Q. Thank you. Do you remember that in this same entrance, Mladen

17 Djordjic also resided, the son of Rada and Andjelko?

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. Would you agree that in this same street, Pero Bosic Street, the

20 house of Bicic Muhamed and Bicic Hasan was also located?

21 A. The second house from my apartment was theirs.

22 Q. That's correct. Would you agree that this distance was maybe

23 about 40 metres?

24 A. Maybe even less, from my entrance.

25 Q. Thank you. In this same street, they also had their pizzeria,

Page 8179

1 called Rendezvous?

2 A. That's correct. It was immediately next to --

3 Q. We will come to that. Let's slow down. Would you agree that

4 maybe about 80 metres from your entrance there was the house of Sabrija

5 Dagovic and his sons, Safet and Esad Dagovic?

6 A. I know where their house was. I don't know how many metres this

7 is, but I can tell you how many houses it was from my entrance to their

8 house.

9 Q. You testified here that on the 17th of April you saw an explosion

10 in the pizzeria called Rendezvous in Pero Bosic Street.

11 A. I heard an explosion nearby, and I ran towards the window, because

12 there was a lot of shooting that previous night, so I went to the window

13 to see what was going on. And a hand-held rocket launcher was thrown into

14 this pizzeria, and this was on the 18th of April, 1992.

15 Q. Was there any street lighting at that moment?

16 A. There was no need for it. It had already dawned.

17 Q. I'm going to correct this. We noticed an error in the

18 transcript. If I understood you correctly, it said this happened on the

19 18th. You said this happened on the 17th of April.

20 A. In the early morning hours, just after it had dawned. While there

21 was shooting, there was some attack going on, but I have no idea who was

22 attacking and who was defending. And I also -- the primary school was

23 also burning.

24 Q. Okay. Let's slow down.

25 A. Please let me finish.

Page 8180

1 Q. Let's just focus on the pizzeria Rendezvous and the events that

2 happened in the Djuro Djakovica and Pero Bosic streets. That's what we're

3 interested in right now. You said that you saw some soldiers at that

4 time; is that correct?

5 A. Yes. I saw them when I saw this explosion. I took a look and I

6 saw smoke rising out of the pizzeria. Below my window there were

7 soldiers, and I thought these were Croatian soldiers, because I had just

8 come back from Croatia and I thought that they were the only ones that had

9 camouflage uniforms. I thought this was a Croatian army. This is why I

10 ran to Veljko to ask Veljko and to ask Milan Babic to ask what the

11 Croatian army was doing there.

12 Q. You had already mentioned this. So these soldiers that you saw

13 and who fired the hand-held rocket launcher towards the pizzeria, those

14 were the ones that were in your street

15 A. Yes. These soldiers were below my window, in my street. I don't

16 know who was by the pizzeria, but I'm assuming that probably it was the

17 same people who were attacking at that time. As far as I know, there were

18 no other armed men other than this military that I saw.

19 Q. Let's slow down. You had said earlier that somebody was shooting

20 from a hand-held rocket launcher towards the pizzeria Rendezvous. I would

21 like to ask you the following: Do you know what a hand-held rocket

22 launcher is?

23 A. No. When we were talking, they all said that it was a Zolja, but

24 I don't really know what that was.

25 Q. So you would agree that you don't know what a Zolja is?

Page 8181

1 A. No, I don't.

2 Q. Would you agree with me that you didn't see this precise moment

3 when something or someone shot or threw some explosive object into the

4 pizzeria?

5 A. When I heard the explosion, that was -- after that I ran to the

6 window.

7 Q. So we've cleared this up. Thank you very much. So these soldiers

8 that were below your window, whom you could see, were dressed in --?

9 A. Camouflage uniforms.

10 Q. Camouflage uniforms. So if I understood you correctly, these

11 uniforms looked very much like uniforms worn by Croatian soldiers, who you

12 saw while you were in Croatia?

13 A. I thought only Croatian soldiers had these uniforms. I didn't

14 know that there were other armies too that had them. I only thought that

15 Croatians had them.

16 Q. Let's slow down. Thank you. On this 17th of April, 1992, did you

17 see, on the Pero Bosic and parts of the Djuro Djakovica Street, movements

18 of groups of armed civilians?

19 A. I have no idea. I didn't look.

20 Q. Please don't explain anything. Just say if you saw it or not.

21 A. Well, I did not.

22 Q. Thank you. On that day, the 17th of April, 1992, in the yard of

23 your building and the Carrington building, did you see any armed persons

24 that were wearing civilian clothes predominantly?

25 A. I did not see anybody wearing civilian clothes who was armed. I

Page 8182

1 only saw these --

2 Q. We're done with that. We're finished. Thank you.

3 On that day, did you see any kind of gathering of people at all in

4 the yard of your building and the Carrington building?

5 A. My window was facing the street. It didn't look into the

6 window -- into the yard. I was scared of these soldiers that entered my

7 entrance. I only looked through the window, or at times I would only just

8 sit in the armchair. I had no intention whatsoever to remember or to pay

9 attention to these things.

10 Q. Would you then agree that on that day, the 17th of April, 1994 [As

11 interpreted], during that whole day, you did not observe what was going on

12 in the street or in the yard of your building?

13 A. I observed what was going on in the street from time to time, but

14 it never occurred to me to see what was going on in the yard, because that

15 would have meant that I had to go out into the hall and then go to another

16 window. So that never happened. But I did watch what was going on in the

17 Pero Bosic Street, and also the part -- a part of the Djuro Djakovica

18 Street that I could see.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner.

20 MR. WEINER: Yes, Your Honour. Page 69, line 8, it says 17th of

21 April, 1994. That should be corrected for the record. She was exchanged

22 and deported in 1993. It should be at least corrected.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think counsel can see the date and he'll

24 correct it.

25 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Of course.

Page 8183

1 Q. All these events took place on the 17th of April, 1992; is that

2 correct?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. Thank you. Ma'am, do you know Ibela Ibrahim Drljacic?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Could you please tell this Chamber: On that day --

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, can we have -- is it the correct name?

8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter correction. It's Ibrahim Salkic.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: I thought that's what counsel had said.

10 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, there is an error. The name

11 is wrong. I'm going to read it out again. I asked about Ibrahim Salkic,

12 called Ibela.

13 Q. Do you know Mr. Ibrahim Salkic, called Ibela?

14 A. I don't know that -- I'm not aware that his name is Ibrahim, but I

15 know Ibela Salkic.

16 Q. So you just know his nickname, as is our custom, but we are

17 talking about the same person; is that correct?

18 A. Yes, that's correct. I don't know if his name is Ibrahim, though.

19 Q. On that day, in these moments when you were watching the Pero

20 Bosic Street, did you see Mr. Salkic go along the Pero Bosic Street

21 together with a group of armed civilians?

22 A. I saw Salkic go along the street, and he had his arms raised, and

23 he was saying, "I'm handing over my gun and nothing -- surrender your

24 weapons," but I didn't see anything else. He was also saying, "Nothing

25 will happen to anybody." He had come from Djuro Djakovica Street from the

Page 8184

1 health centre direction, and he then turned into the Pero Bosic Street

2 towards the department store.

3 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, I have to ask for some clarification

4 of the transcript and of interpretation, because here it says: "And he

5 had his arms raised." It's page 70, line 20.


7 MR. LAZAREVIC: Since it can be interpreted as arms as arms or --

8 actually, I believe that accurate translation should be his weapon,

9 because that's what -- that's what we heard from the witness.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Perhaps counsel can go over that so that we

11 get the correct evidence from the witness.

12 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. My question was the following: When you saw Ibela, Ibrahim

14 Salkic, how did you see him? If I understood you correctly, you said that

15 his hands and arms were raised, that he had a rifle in his hand, and he

16 was calling people to surrender their weapons and nothing would happen to

17 them if they did so.

18 A. That's correct, but I don't know what kind of a weapon he had.

19 Q. Did he have a rifle or something?

20 A. Yes, something like that. That was the only rifle that I saw on a

21 civilian, if that was a rifle.

22 Q. Mrs. Drljacic, could you please tell us what day it was when you

23 saw Mr. Salkic in this pose with his arms raised and with this rifle in

24 his hand.

25 A. I think this was on the same day, the 17th, in the afternoon.

Page 8185

1 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, is this a good moment

2 to make -- start our break?

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. -- yes, but before we go, Mr. Di Fazio?

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Just a brief question for arranging the

5 remainder of this afternoon. Could counsel give us an idea how much

6 longer they will be with this witness? I ask that because the next

7 witness is in his hotel room and if there's no chance of reaching him

8 today, I'd like to be able to release him so he doesn't have to be stuck

9 in his hotel room waiting for a telephone call.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pisarevic. How many more minutes?

11 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think I will be

12 done in about 20 minutes.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic, are you going to cross-examine?

14 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, no question on behalf of Mr. Blagoje

15 Simic's Defence.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: So you can estimate that. In the meantime, we shall

17 have our break and continue at 1805 hours.

18 --- Recess taken at 5.45 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 6.05 p.m.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

21 MR. PANTELIC: If you allow me, Your Honours just for the record,

22 the Defence for Mr. Blagoje Simic doesn't wish to cross-examine this

23 witness, according to the instruction of the defendant, Mr. Blagoje Simic.


25 MR. PANTELIC: Just for the record.

Page 8186

1 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

2 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pisarevic. Will you please continue.

4 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 Q. Mrs. Drljacic, you said a moment ago that it seems to you it was

6 the same day when you saw Ibrahim Salkic. Do you allow for the

7 possibility that you saw Ibrahim Salkic on the 18th of April, 1992?

8 A. That could easily be true, because, as I said, I was in a state of

9 shock. But in any case, it was in the afternoon, not in the morning.

10 Q. You also said that on the same day, some armed people entered your

11 entranceway. Do you allow for the possibility that these men too came on

12 the 18th of April?

13 A. No. On the 17th, in the morning. That was just after my sighting

14 of the troops downstairs. Because I walked to Veljo's apartment to ask

15 him how come they were there. And then I went to Uncle Juro's because

16 neither Milan nor Veljo were at home, so I went downstairs to see Uncle

17 Juro.

18 Q. Please, we've already heard that. Do you know that Ibrahim Salkic

19 was a member of the SDA? Say that you don't know if you don't know.

20 A. I don't know.

21 Q. We'll move to a different topic now, namely, you stated before

22 this Trial Chamber that you knew Mr. Simo Zaric well.

23 A. Yes, I know him well.

24 Q. Do you know that Mr. Simo Zaric's wife is Muslim?

25 A. Unfortunately, I am aware of that.

Page 8187

1 Q. You know that she is a Muslim, don't you?

2 A. I do.

3 Q. And do you know that Mr. Zaric and his wife have a son named

4 Mirela?

5 A. I know that too.

6 Q. Do you know Mrs. Koviljka Omeralagic?

7 A. I do. It's his sister.

8 Q. You mean Simo Zaric's sister?

9 A. That's right.

10 Q. Is her husband a Muslim?

11 A. He is.

12 Q. Thank you. And are you aware of the fact that Simo's sister,

13 Jelena, is also married to a Muslim?

14 A. I don't know her.

15 Q. Thank you. And do you know Simo's sister, Dr. Nada, who is

16 married to a Croat?

17 A. I don't. I only know Koviljka.

18 Q. Thank you. Do you know, by any chance, that Mr. Zaric's kum is

19 Kasim Hasumovic, a Muslim from his Bosanski Samac, the witness at his

20 wedding?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. But you know the man?

23 A. Yes. He was my neighbour in my childhood.

24 Q. And you can confirm that he is a Muslim?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8188

1 Q. And do you know that Simo Zaric has a daughter, Natasa, who is

2 married to a Croat?

3 A. I had no idea.

4 Q. And can we agree that you don't know Mr. Simo Zaric very well?

5 A. I know him from the time when he lived in Samac. He was a boy

6 when he came to Samac. I was not interested in his roots, as he was

7 probably not interested in mine.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction. Mr. Hasumovic was the

10 best man at Simo Zaric's wedding.

11 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. We'll move to a different topic now. You said that you listened

13 to Mr. Zaric speak on the Serbian Radio Samac all the time.

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. And that on those occasions he said bad, derogatory things

16 about --

17 A. Muslims.

18 Q. Take it easy. -- members of the Muslim ethnic group?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. You had a radio receiver in your apartment?

21 A. Every has one.

22 Q. Did you have a TV set?

23 A. Certainly.

24 Q. Fine. Can you, with any degree of certainty, tell us when was the

25 first time that you heard on Serbian Radio Samac or on TV any address or

Page 8189

1 statement by Mr. Simo Zaric?

2 A. I can't tell you the date, but I did hear him.

3 Q. All right. Did you see him on TV? Did you see Mr. Simo Zaric in

4 some sort of special programme?

5 A. He made an appearance, but I don't know what programme it was. I

6 already told you, I was in a deep state of shock. It was a surprise to

7 me, especially seeing him.

8 Q. I understand. I quite understand, Mrs. Drljacic. But you are

9 testifying to some very serious things, and we must all do our best to

10 establish the truth. So if you can remember, we'll appreciate it, but

11 nobody will put any pressure on you.

12 After all the time that has passed since, could you agree with

13 this piece of information: You saw Mr. Zaric on television on the 30th of

14 April, 1992?

15 A. I don't know what date it was.

16 Q. Roughly.

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. Do you remember that this programme included interviews of

19 Mr. Tihic? He was interviewed by a journalist from Novi Sad.

20 A. I remember watching Tihic, Hadzialijagic, and who was the third

21 man?

22 Q. Can you perhaps remember that it was Izet Izetbegovic?

23 A. Precisely.

24 Q. Do you remember that he was interviewed on that programme by

25 journalist from Novi Sad, as well as Mr. Omer Nalic?

Page 8190

1 A. Was it Novi Sad or Belgrade?

2 Q. I'm telling you now that it was Novi Sad.

3 A. Fine.

4 Q. I have that interview given by Mr. Simo Zaric to that journalist

5 of the Novi Sad radio and television, and the Trial Chamber is in

6 possession of that interview. And after your statement to the effect that

7 Mr. Simo Zaric spoke about Muslims in a very insulting way, I re-read that

8 interview for the umpteenth time, and I did not find any derogatory

9 reference at all to the Muslim or the Croatian people.

10 A. I stated that I heard --

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, before the witness answer. Mr. Weiner.

12 MR. WEINER: I would object. The issue isn't whether

13 Mr. Pisarevic finds something derogatory; it's up to the witness. It's

14 the witnesses' memory, it's the witness's thoughts that are important.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: And this is with regard to the TV show, not the

16 radio.

17 MR. WEINER: The TV.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. All right.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not watch Zaric on TV. I

20 listened to him speak on radio Serbian Samac. It grated on my ears to

21 hear Serbian Samac for the first time. I couldn't understand why it

22 should be Serbian.

23 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. We'll come to that. As for the objection of Mr. Weiner, I wasn't

25 recollecting anything. I only looked up what Mr. Zaric actually said, and

Page 8191

1 that is relevant because we have information that it was precisely that

2 interview which was broadcast on Radio Samac several times, and it is

3 quite possible that the witness heard this very interview on Radio Serbian

4 Samac.

5 A. I don't know which interview it was, but I heard him speak. I

6 heard him say very bad things about Muslims on Radio Serbian Samac. I

7 can't say about the TV, because I didn't watch him.

8 Q. Mrs. Drljacic, you confirmed a moment ago, and very convincingly

9 so, that you watched this special programme, because you watched and

10 listened to all the participants in that special programme.

11 A. I didn't say that I listened to them all. I saw all those people,

12 but I had no strength to listen to all of what was said.

13 Q. All right. What you heard on Radio Samac, were those live

14 programmes? Did Mr. Zaric talk to a journalist an announcer? Because

15 from what you are saying, I'm getting the impression that he was the

16 announcer himself on Radio Serbian Samac.

17 A. I can't say whether it was an interview. I don't know. Maybe I

18 didn't listen to the entirety of the programme, but I know that I heard

19 him one day and then again three or four days later. It was horrible to

20 my mind that he was saying those things, he in particular.

21 Q. Please, try to remember. Did anyone who edited the broadcasts of

22 Serbian Radio Samac announce that Mr. Simo Zaric would be speaking?

23 A. I already said I may not have heard the entirety of the

24 programme. I just remember what was painful for me to hear.

25 Q. Please. If I understood you correctly, you only conclude that

Page 8192

1 Mr. Zaric spoke because you believe you recognised his voice.

2 A. Absolutely, because other people too said, "Did you hear what Simo

3 said?"

4 Q. Your claim is based on your ability to tell the voice of Mr. Simo

5 Zaric, isn't it?

6 A. At the time, yes.

7 MR. WEINER: That's not what she said, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

9 MR. WEINER: She just said, "Absolutely. When he asked about,

10 "and because other people too said, 'Did you hear what Simo said?'"

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, that's what the witness said.

12 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. All right. I'll ask the following question of Mrs. Drljacic.

14 On what basis do you claim before this Trial Chamber that you

15 listened to Mr. Zaric speak on Serbian Radio Samac?

16 A. Please don't try to make a fool out of me.

17 Q. That was not my intention.

18 A. Mr. Simo Zaric knows me as well as I know him.

19 Q. That is not in dispute. Please tell me: Was he announced by the

20 announcer or did you just hear his voice? That's all I'm asking. Please

21 tell the Court so that the Trial Chamber can hear on what basis you

22 reached that conclusion.

23 A. I'm certain that it was he who spoke, and I recognised his voice.

24 Please let me finish. Very often, people told each other: "Did you hear

25 what Simo said?" And I know what I heard. It was Simo Zaric. No mistake

Page 8193

1 about that.

2 Q. I have to ask you again. This claim of yours is based on your

3 ability to distinguish the voice of Mr. Simo Zaric, isn't it?

4 A. I'm not the only witness.

5 Q. You are the only one I'm asking.

6 A. I believe the other witnesses testified to this too, and I

7 couldn't have made this up.

8 Q. All right. Thank you. On the 30th of April, 1998, you gave a

9 statement to the investigators of the Tribunal in The Hague.

10 A. Which year?

11 Q. 1998. At least that's what it says on your statement. It's here

12 in front of me.

13 MR. WEINER: Your Honour --

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

15 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, this is one of those situations where we

16 have an interview. It is not signed, it's never been reviewed. It's an

17 interview. We're not talking about an in-depth statement. This is one of

18 those handful of witnesses where we've had that problem.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. You are saying this the statement wasn't

20 signed?

21 MR. WEINER: It was not signed. It says at the end, "This

22 statement was not re-read to the witness and therefore the witness has not

23 had the opportunity to verify or acknowledge the accuracy or truth of the

24 statement."

25 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

Page 8194

1 MR. WEINER: So it's not a statement. There was an interview of

2 some kind. Whether it was with several people, one person, I don't know.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

4 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] No problem, Your Honours.

5 Mr. Weiner is right in saying that this is an unsigned statement and was

6 not read to the witness. So I'll rephrase my question.

7 Q. Mrs. Drljacic, you had an interview with the investigators of The

8 Hague Tribunal and you provided them with certain information about what

9 you had seen; correct?

10 A. Yes, and I confirmed this during my testimony.

11 Q. Can you remember that in this interview you never spoke about

12 listening to Mr. Simo Zaric on the radio or seeing him on television?

13 A. Perhaps I did not mention it. Perhaps I didn't remember to. But

14 in the meantime, I met a lot of people, and maybe I remembered.

15 Q. Did you remember or did somebody remind you?

16 A. I remembered it.

17 Q. So you remembered it. In that interview you made only one

18 reference to Mr. Simo Zaric and Mr. Miroslav Tadic saying that you knew

19 them before the war and that you thought they were some sort of commanders

20 in the 4th Detachment?

21 A. I can't say anything about the 4th Detachment. I was in Samac. I

22 don't know anything about that and please don't ask me any more questions

23 about that.

24 Q. I'm not. I'm just telling you what you said in the interview from

25 1998. When that interview was conducted, did you know that Mr. Zaric and

Page 8195

1 Mr. Tadic had surrendered voluntarily to the Tribunal in The Hague,

2 together with Mr. Simic?

3 A. I gave that interview much earlier. And allow me to say this: I

4 knew from the press - I was reading Belgrade and Bosnians newspapers at

5 the time - that he said, when he was seen off, "I'm going there to tell

6 the truth, and if I had to do it again, I would do it."

7 Q. You remember it very well. Thank you. You don't know this, but

8 I'll tell you that Mr. Simo Zaric surrendered himself voluntarily to the

9 Tribunal in The Hague on the 24th of February, 1998. Do you agree with me

10 that if you gave your interview on the 30th of April, then you must have

11 given it later.

12 A. No.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner.

14 MR. WEINER: [Previous translation continues] ... they're both

15 speaking at the same time. I'm sorry. I missed part of the question and

16 part of the answer.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: You can see the question on the transcript.

18 MR. WEINER: That's fine. They're starting to speak over each

19 other and we're not getting things at the same time.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

21 MR. WEINER: Objection withdrawn. Sorry.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Perhaps the counsel can ask the question

23 again.

24 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. Can we agree that you had this interview with the investigators of

Page 8196

1 The Hague Tribunal after the surrender of Mr. Simo Zaric to The Hague

2 Tribunal?

3 A. Maybe I gave some additional statements, but the interview was

4 given before that.

5 Q. It is not my intention, Mrs. Drljacic, to show you this interview,

6 but I can read here: "Unofficial interview with Hajrija Drljacic 30th

7 April 1998 attended by Agnes Inderhaug, investigator, and Diana Barbaric

8 interpreter.

9 A. Please. Excuse me. I talked to Mr. Roy.

10 Q. But when was that? Could you tell us?

11 A. Does the date matter?

12 Q. Ma'am, everything matters to us. This business is too important

13 for any unclarities. Did Mr. Roy re-read the statement to you?

14 A. I don't remember, but if I signed it, then my signature is still

15 there, and I'm not avoiding anything.

16 Q. Was it before the interview with Mrs. Agnes Inderhaug or before?

17 A. Excuse me. I can't place that name at all.

18 Q. Agnes Inderhaug. It's a Mrs. or a Miss, who works as an

19 investigator in The Hague Tribunal.

20 A. I know that the first time I talked to a lady whose name I don't

21 remember at all. It was in 1997, maybe even end of 1996. The first time

22 that I ever learned of the existence of this wonderful court, for which I

23 am so grateful.

24 Q. Thank you for this information to the effect that you had

25 interviews with other investigators. We did not have that information,

Page 8197

1 and we'll pursue it and see what we're going to do about it.

2 You also made a claim here about Mr. Simo Zaric. Were you ever in

3 Odzak before the 31st of December, 1992?

4 A. No, not during the war. How was I supposed to get out?

5 Q. Just say yes or no.

6 A. No, I wasn't. My brother went there.

7 Q. You never saw Mr. Simo Zaric in Odzak, did you?

8 A. I never went to Odzak during the war.

9 Q. Will you tell the Trial Chamber now: On what basis do you claim

10 that Simo Zaric was a commander in Odzak?

11 A. He held some superior executive post. I don't know which. But

12 Simo Zaric knows about it very well. The day the church was destroyed in

13 Odzak, my brother, Teufik, was in a hotel.

14 Q. Ma'am, how do you know Mr. Simo Zaric knows this? Please don't do

15 this sort of thing. I'm just asking you: How do you know he was a

16 commander? We are not disputing that he was in Odzak, but you are telling

17 us that he was a commander. We need to clarify this. Was he a

18 commander? How do you know that? If you don't know that, please tell us

19 so.

20 A. All of our people who had to go and do forced labour came back and

21 said, "Simo Zaric is some sort of big cheese over there."

22 Q. So you heard it from others.

23 A. Not from one or two people, but from many people, all of those who

24 went to forced labour in Odzak, and Mr. Simo Zaric knows how many there

25 were.

Page 8198

1 Q. Do you know how many people there were on work obligation in

2 Odzak?

3 A. I don't know the number, but I can enumerate my relatives who

4 worked.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pisarevic, your 20 minutes is over. Remember?

6 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was just done.

7 Thank you very much.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. Any re-examination?

9 MR. WEINER: I just -- if he has a few more questions, I have no

10 objection to him questioning more. I have no objection.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: He said he's finished.

12 MR. WEINER: All right.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pisarevic -- yes, he said he's finished. Go

14 ahead, Mr. Weiner.

15 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I was finished.

16 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

17 Re-examined by Mr. Weiner:

18 Q. Mrs. Drljacic, I have some questions for you based on some of the

19 questions that you were asked. You were shown a document. The first

20 document you were shown, D42/3 - there's no need to show it to her - there

21 was a name on that document, Bahra Drljacic. Do you know --

22 A. Bahra.

23 Q. Bahra. Who was that?

24 A. She is my sister. She is married to somebody in Serbia and she

25 lives there. She is currently in Paris, but she is a citizen of Serbia.

Page 8199

1 She was not in Samac, even though she was in the list as if she was using

2 the services of the Red Cross, but that was not true.

3 Q. You said she was not. It indicates she was receiving Red Cross

4 assistance. Was she in Bosanski Samac in the spring or summer of 1992?

5 A. There is no way. Her husband was very sick at the time, and there

6 was no way that she could have been in Samac. I don't know really how she

7 could have gotten in or left the town.

8 Q. Is she the person who you communicated by telephone to in Serbia?

9 A. Yes, that's correct.

10 MR. WEINER: I'm sorry, Your Honour. Is there a volume problem

11 or -- could the translator say something?

12 THE INTERPRETER: One, two, three, testing. Can you hear me?

13 MR. WEINER: Try it again.

14 THE INTERPRETER: One, two, three, testing.

15 MR. WEINER: Yes. All right.

16 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Weiner, what number on the list was that

17 name?

18 MR. WEINER: I believe it was 247. Yes, number 247, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.


21 Q. After your phone went out, was she the person who had a Serb

22 friend whose telephone was working that you would call -- who you would

23 call in Serbia? Is that that same sister?

24 A. Yes. Yes. The eldest sister died, and she is the only sister

25 that I have left.

Page 8200

1 Q. Okay. Now, there was some talk about registration. There was a

2 document showing certain people who were receiving food from the Red

3 Cross. Did anyone ever tell you that you had to register in order to

4 receive food?

5 A. Nobody ever told me this. I asked why this notice wasn't posted

6 just like the other ones in which we were order that had we had to wear

7 white armbands, or other ones, but I really don't like to remember this.

8 Q. Let's just take a few questions and I'll get off this subject. Do

9 you -- any of the people who you spoke to who received milk or bread, did

10 they tell you that they went down and registered first?

11 A. In this list my oldest sister is also listed. She died later.

12 And even she didn't tell me that I had to register somewhere, nor was she

13 able to register herself. I don't even know whether she received this

14 humanitarian aid or not.

15 Q. Could you, your sister, or your brother have used milk or bread

16 during the spring and summer of 1992? Could you have used that milk or

17 bread from the Red Cross?

18 A. At the very beginning, we had -- all of us did have help, but that

19 time didn't last long.

20 Q. But in the summer and the spring of 1992, could you have used that

21 help from the Red Cross, ma'am?

22 A. Yes. As I said, that happened in April, maybe one part of May as

23 well, in 1992. We received this help in the yard of the local commune in

24 Bosanski Samac.

25 Q. But ma'am, after April, could you have continued to use that help?

Page 8201

1 A. I have already said this. While the food was being distributed

2 there, in this location, I was getting it along with everybody else, but

3 later you know what happened.

4 Q. Let us move to one of the other documents that you were shown.

5 MR. WEINER: Could we please see document D26/3, and place ter --

6 either -- both ter and -- both English and the B/C/S version.

7 Q. Ma'am, could you look at the second page of that list. I invite

8 your attention to number 84.

9 A. Okay.

10 Q. Almost at the bottom, is that your niece, Fadila, Avdo's husband?

11 A. Yes, that's correct.

12 Q. Is there any date of birth next to her name?

13 A. No. There is an error here. She had two children, and here it

14 says that she only had one. Oh, I apologise. That is the line below. I

15 apologise. Yes, it says "two children." I didn't look at the right line.

16 Q. And there are only four names after her on that list of 88;

17 correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Ma'am, I want you to look at one more thing. Look at both pages.

20 Is there a number next to every name on those two pages?

21 A. A number by every name, as an ordinal number?

22 Q. A number to the left of every name. There are numbers 1 through

23 88.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Okay. Thank you?

Page 8202

1 MR. WEINER: Could you now show her D49/3 ter, ID.

2 Q. Could you look at it for a moment and we'll put it on the ELMO.

3 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

4 Q. Now, are there any people on that list -- we just saw a list with

5 88 names. Every single one had a number next to it. Are there any people

6 on that list that have no number next to them?

7 A. There are numbers by every name.

8 Q. What about the last name, Krajinovic Gospava?

9 A. Yes. There is no number here because she was added later. She

10 was added later. She does not have a number by her name.

11 Q. And you testified in this Court that Juro Krajinovic paid to have

12 his family taken out of Bosanski Samac. Those people at the bottom of the

13 list that don't have a number, do they constitute the family of Juro

14 Krajinovic?

15 A. Yes. Mrs. Gospava is his wife, and two under-age children.

16 Q. And it doesn't say how they were brought to the exchange. Does it

17 say whether they came in a vehicle or whether they went by bus? Is there

18 any indication there?

19 A. I have no idea. I don't know.

20 MR. WEINER: Thank you very much, Mr. Usher. Thank you.

21 Q. A few questions concerning the radio and television. In your

22 previous interview there was no discussion about radio or television.

23 During that interview -- first tell me: How long did that interview last,

24 if you recall?

25 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, excuse me. I am not objecting to

Page 8203

1 this, but it wasn't quite clear to me what was the question, because we

2 just heard that there were at least two interviews with this witness. So

3 if my colleague can clarify: Was it the interview with investigator

4 called Yves Roy, or maybe the other interview, or one of these.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. He should be more specific.

6 MR. WEINER: Okay. I was going to say that she said she spoke to

7 Yves Roy. They didn't press that issue and ask: Was it an interview?

8 Did you sign something? Was there paper? Did he take notes? There was

9 no discussion as to that.


11 MR. WEINER: How long did that last? With regard to the interview

12 with Agnes Inderhaug on 30th April 1998, did -- excuse me.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

14 MR. PANTELIC: I do apologise, my learned friend, but something is

15 confusing me. This is page 89, line 17. The question was: "A few

16 questions concerning the radio and television," and now we are jumping

17 into another topic with the Yves Roy interview. So I would really

18 appreciate it if he can clarify this part of transcript for the sake of

19 the proceedings, because otherwise --

20 JUDGE MUMBA: So that you get to understand which interview.

21 MR. PANTELIC: Which interview. We have radio, television, now

22 Yves Roy, Agnes Inderhaug. It's a lot of interviews. Thank you

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Mr. Weiner will clarify that.

24 MR. WEINER: Your Honour -- all right.

25 Q. Ma'am, we're talking about not the interviews you heard on the

Page 8204

1 radio. We're talking about the interviews that you had with the personnel

2 from the Office of the Prosecutor. Do you recall the interview you had

3 with Ms. Inderhaug back in April of 1998? Do you remember speaking with

4 her?

5 A. You mean directly, in person, or over the phone?

6 Q. Well, Why don't you tell me: When you spoke with Ms. Inderhaug in

7 this informal interview, was it over the telephone or was it in person, if

8 you recall?

9 A. I apologise. I really don't remember the lady's name. I just

10 simply didn't keep it in my memory.

11 Q. Okay. No problem. But when you spoke with that lady, did you

12 speak to her in person? Was she sitting with you? Or did you speak to

13 her over a telephone?

14 A. I know that I talked both on the phone as well. I didn't talk to

15 a woman in person in Salt Lake City at all. I only talked to Mr. Roy.

16 That's how I pronounced his name.

17 Q. So when you spoke with a woman, you spoke over the telephone?

18 A. I talked to a woman on the phone.

19 Q. Now, in that interview, or it's -- in that informal interview over

20 the telephone, there is no discussion concerning Simo Zaric making

21 derogatory statements on the radio. Did she ever ask you during that

22 informal interview on the telephone any specific questions relating to

23 radio or television broadcasts?

24 A. I really do not remember. I just don't remember.

25 Q. Now, there was mention by counsel of Mr. Zaric having certain

Page 8205

1 relatives that were either Muslim or Croatian. He had these relatives

2 through marriage. Let's go after the war starts. After the war starts,

3 did you ever hear Simo Zaric say anything complimentary about Muslims

4 over the radio?

5 A. Never. He immediately transferred his family to Serbia, and he

6 was with the brother of his wife. His brother's wife [as interpreted] was

7 almost like his personal escort. They were always together. And there is

8 another thing that I haven't mentioned before. When Mr. Zaric was in

9 Odzak, he would very often come to my building in the evening with the

10 wife's brother.

11 Q. All right. But you never heard him say anything complimentary

12 about Muslims. What about Croats? Did you ever hear Simo Zaric say

13 anything complimentary about Croatians on the radio? And this is after

14 the war began.

15 A. No, I did not have that opportunity.

16 MR. WEINER: Thank you, Your Honour. No further questions.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, Mrs. Drljacic, for giving evidence to the

18 Tribunal. You are now free. You can leave the courtroom.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

20 [The witness withdrew]

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution?

22 Mr. Lazarevic?

23 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, before we start with another

24 witness, is it maybe the right moment that we tender some translations

25 that we have received recently?

Page 8206

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think we can --

2 MR. LAZAREVIC: Because we have just five minutes.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We may as well have documents available.

4 Yes, Mr. Di Fazio?

5 MR. DI FAZIO: May I ask the witness who has been waiting out

6 there that -- sorry. May I tell the witness who has been waiting out

7 there that he's free to go back?

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We can start him in the morning.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I'm grateful to Your Honours.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Meaning the afternoon tomorrow, 1415.

11 Yes, Mr. Lazarevic, you can go ahead.

12 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, Your Honour. We have received the official

13 translation of the document D20/4. It was a receipt confirming that the

14 witness - his name is protected - has received certain weapons. And I

15 already gave this translation to our colleagues from the Prosecution, so I

16 don't believe that there will be any problems in this respect. D20/4.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

18 MR. WEINER: No objection, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Are we waiting for the usher to assist?

20 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. I have a copy for the Trial Chamber and the

21 Registry.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Any other documents?

23 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. There are two more documents, if Your Honour

24 remembers.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You can discuss them.

Page 8207

1 MR. LAZAREVIC: While witness Esad Dagovic was testifying here for

2 the first time, we took certain photographs of Mr. Zaric's handbag. It

3 was made by -- with assistance of the Registry, and now we do have

4 photographs of Mr. Zaric's bag. I was instructed by the Trial Chamber

5 that as soon as we receive it, I should tender this into evidence.


7 MR. LAZAREVIC: And I have actually two different photographs.

8 One is front side, and the backside of Mr. Zaric's bag. So I would ask

9 for a number for this evidence.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution have copies already?

11 MR. LAZAREVIC: They don't.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Not yet.

13 MR. LAZAREVIC: I'm sorry.

14 MR. WEINER: That's fine, Your Honour. No objection.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. There's no objection from the

16 Prosecution.

17 MR. LAZAREVIC: Okay. If I may have the number for the evidence

18 of these two from the Registry?

19 JUDGE MUMBA: The problem is they haven't -- didn't hand it in

20 because when she issues a number, she has to immediately record that. You

21 can go on with the third document.

22 MR. LAZAREVIC: This is all.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: That's all.

24 MR. LAZAREVIC: These are two documents, two photographs and the

25 third is translation. And that's all. Well, with permission, maybe I

Page 8208

1 could just approach the Registry.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Since we don't know what is happening to the

3 usher.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, I confirm that D20/4 ter ID is now

5 D20/4 ter, and the English translation, D20/4.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

7 THE REGISTRAR: The two photographs showing the handbag, the front

8 of the photograph will be D24/4, and the back of the handbag will be

9 D25/4. Thank you.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE MUMBA: We'll adjourn until tomorrow afternoon at 1415

12 hours.

13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,

14 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 22nd day of

15 May 2002, at 2.15 p.m.