Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8419

1 Tuesday, 28 May 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 [The accused Milan Simic not present]

6 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Case number

9 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Milan Simic, Miroslav

10 Tadic, and Simo Zaric.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Before the Prosecution continues, the Trial Chamber

12 would like to make a statement on the proceedings. The Trial Chamber held

13 proceedings in closed session on the 15th and 27th of May. As a result of

14 these proceedings and the submissions made, the Trial Chamber has decided

15 to separate the trial of the accused Milan Simic from the other three

16 accused - Blagoje Simic, Miroslav Tadic, and Simo Zaric - in order to

17 protect the interests of justice, as provided under Rule 82 of the Rules

18 of Procedure and Evidence. Consequently, the Prosecution is ordered to

19 file an amended indictment against the three accused - Blagoje Simic,

20 Miroslav Tadic, and Simo Zaric.

21 The Prosecution can go ahead with continued examination-in-chief.

22 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, just one quick question relating to the

23 amended indictment. Must it be filed by a certain date?

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, right away, forthwith, as soon as you can file

25 it, the better.

Page 8420

1 MR. WEINER: Thank you.


3 [Witness answered through interpreter]

4 Examined by Mr. Weiner: [Continued]

5 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Fitozovic.

6 A. Good afternoon.

7 Q. Yesterday when we left off we were discussing a meeting that

8 occurred in Bosanski Samac for military reserve officers in December of

9 1991. What we're going to do now is continue on chronologically, and

10 we're going to move to January of 1992.

11 In January of 1992, did you still oversee an independent military

12 unit, the purpose of which was to protect Bosanski Samac?

13 A. Yes, I did oversee it.

14 Q. And you explained yesterday how you were able to obtain some 50

15 rifles but very little ammunition; is that correct?

16 A. Yes, that's correct.

17 Q. Now, what I'd like to do at this time is discuss some other

18 substances of armaments that you received.

19 MR. WEINER: May the witness be shown document D4/4, please. 4/4

20 and 4/4 ter, please.

21 Q. Sir, would you look at that document, please.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Could you tell us --

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic?

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that it would be

Page 8421

1 fair for the Defence to put the B/C/S version on the ELMO, because the

2 accused cannot understand the English version, which is now on the ELMO.

3 If it could be placed on the ELMO for just one moment so that they can see

4 the document.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Sometimes because the witness also has

6 to look at the B/C/S version, perhaps we allow just a few minutes for the

7 witness to look at the document.

8 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, it's such a short document. It's

9 self-explanatory. You can just leave the B/C/S document on there. No

10 problem at all.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: So we can have it on the ELMO?

12 MR. WEINER: Sure.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.


15 Q. Sir, could you tell us what that document represents?

16 A. This document is a receipt indicating that on the 10th of January,

17 1992, I gave 20 kilogrammes of Vitezit 20 explosive and 12 metres of

18 slow-burning fuse to Nerfid Dzananovic. My signature is on the left-hand

19 side and on the right-hand side is the signature of Mr. Nerfid

20 Dzananovic.

21 Q. And this gentleman that you gave the 20 kilogrammes of explosive

22 to, where was he from and what did he do?

23 A. He is from Odzak, and he had a function in the Territorial Defence

24 of the Odzak municipality.

25 Q. Now, after you obtained that receipt, what did you do with it?

Page 8422

1 A. Could you please repeat your question?

2 Q. That receipt, why did you get a written receipt for that document,

3 first?

4 A. I gave this receipt to Mr. Djananovic. I gave him -- I issued him

5 the explosive, to Mr. Djananovic, so I wrote the receipt. I didn't get

6 the receipt.

7 Q. Why did you put together a receipt? Was that part of your proper

8 military procedures, to get a receipt?

9 A. Yes. I did that in order to verify which quantity of explosives

10 was issued to whom; in other words, the explosives were under control, and

11 it wasn't possible for everybody to have access to it.

12 Q. Okay. Now, what did you do with that receipt after you signed it

13 and this gentleman from the other TO signed it?

14 A. I put it in my briefcase.

15 Q. And did you eventually take it home?

16 A. Yes. I kept it at home because I did not have an office.

17 Q. And was that later seized, that document? Was it seized from your

18 home or from the TO?

19 A. When my apartment was looted, this document was found in my

20 briefcase.

21 Q. Now, with a pointer, could you please point to your signature, and

22 also point to the signature of the other gentleman from the TO in Prud.

23 A. This is my signature and this is the signature of the gentleman

24 from Odzak, to whom I gave the 20 kilogrammes of explosives.

25 Q. And above the signatures, all that language above the signatures,

Page 8423

1 who wrote that out?

2 A. All the words written here, "receipt" and the sentence written

3 here: "issued," received by this name here, I wrote that. This here is my

4 signature and this is the signature of Mr. Nerfid Djananovic, and this is

5 the original.

6 Q. Now, on that original, there are two names on the bottom. As

7 you're facing it, the bottom right-hand corner Fitozovic A, Atic Ratif.

8 Did you write those names?

9 A. No, I didn't.

10 Q. When you completed that receipt, were those names, those two

11 names, on that receipt?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Who put those names on that receipt, if you know?

14 A. I don't know.

15 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, would the Bench like to compare the

16 handwriting? Because if you look at it closely, you can see that -- just

17 on the screen you can see the letter "A," up in the top part of it, is

18 pointed, kind of like a triangle, however, the letter A on the bottom is

19 like an H. The rest of the printing is all capital letters. It's small

20 and capital, but if the Court would like to examine that.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

22 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, as a matter of principle, I do object,

23 because neither this Honourable Trial Chamber nor the parties here are

24 experts in handwriting, so it's more a principle objection. If the

25 Prosecution wants to establish certain relationship between these two

Page 8424

1 handwritings, then they should contact the expert on that field and then

2 file the expert opinion. I mean, speaking of the standards of the

3 criminal proceedings, that's all that is the basis of my objection. Thank

4 you.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner. The objection is sustained. We

6 can look at the original. This is a document we've seen before?

7 MR. WEINER: Yes. It's already in evidence. But all I'm just

8 trying to say is since the witness has indicated it's not his, it wasn't

9 on the document when he signed the receipt. Apparently it was placed on

10 there sometime after, and I just wanted the Court to look at it and make

11 not an expert opinion, but just a general opinion --

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We can look at it. One way you can deal with

13 the matter is to follow the course of custody of this document, because

14 the witness has said after signing all this and writing all this he put it

15 in his briefcase. From there, what happened to the document? That's one

16 line of looking at it.


18 Q. And sir, on April 17th, was your house searched?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. By whom was your house searched on April 17th?

21 A. The house was searched by the Grey Wolves and by the security

22 officers in the Samac municipality, and they were under control of the

23 17th Tactical Group. In fact, these were the security officers from the

24 17th Tactical Group.

25 Q. How do you know that security officers from the 17th Tactical

Page 8425

1 Group of the JNA was involved in a search of your home?

2 A. I received that information from my wife.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think the usher can show us the document.

4 MR. WEINER: Thank you, Mr. Usher.

5 Thank you.

6 Q. And just once again, during the search of your house, that and

7 documents from your briefcase were taken?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, let's continue. You gave 20 kilogrammes of explosive to this

10 gentleman from the TO in Prud. Where did you get the explosive?

11 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, again just -- I believe that my dear

12 colleague overlooked something. It is the second time that he put to the

13 witness that it is a gentleman from Prud, and actually he was from Odzak,

14 and that's what the witness stated. So just for clarification.


16 Yes, Mr. Weiner.

17 MR. WEINER: I'm sorry. That's my fault, Your Honour.

18 Q. From the -- the individual from TO in Odzak, you indicated you

19 gave is this 20 kilogrammes of explosive. Did you -- let's try another

20 question. Did you obtain a certain quantity of explosive in 1991?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. How much explosive did you obtain in 1991?

23 A. A hundred kilos.

24 Q. When in 1991 did you obtain that?

25 A. I think it was in mid-October 1991.

Page 8426

1 Q. Now, where were you storing it? In an office? Without giving the

2 specific location. In an office, in a home, in a building of some kind?

3 Where was it being stored?

4 A. The first day when I got it, I stored it in my parents' house.

5 Q. And from there, what did you do with it? Without stating the

6 exact location, was it placed in an office, in a factory, in a home? What

7 did you do with it?

8 A. Later on I moved the explosive. I gave it to one of our members

9 for storage. We're now talking about 80 kilos of explosive out of the

10 total quantity, the 20 kilos that I gave to Mr. Djananovic was missing.

11 Yes, of Odzak.

12 Q. Now, of that remaining 80, did you use any of that explosive?

13 A. The explosive was never used. It was hidden in a septic tank. It

14 was dry. It was no longer in use. And there it was safe.

15 Q. Why did you obtain that large quantity of explosive?

16 A. Well, every military needs explosives, not only for sabotage work,

17 but also for other things.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

19 MR. PANTELIC: The witness exactly said: Every army needs

20 explosive." I kindly ask this correction in transcript, page 8, and the

21 line 16. Because this word, I think it's not a proper translation what

22 the witness said. He said: "Every army needs explosive."

23 JUDGE MUMBA: We'll leave that to the interpreters, Mr. Pantelic,

24 because they did get the answer, and they've given us the interpretation.

25 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, I would prefer clarification with the

Page 8427

1 learned friends from the Translation Unit immediately, if we can do that.

2 Otherwise I have to obtain the audiotape, then make a written submission,

3 and try to correct.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Mr. Weiner can get clarification from

5 the witness.


7 Q. Sir, we need some clarification for the transcript. Did you say

8 "Everybody army needs explosive" or, "Every military or military unit

9 needs explosives"?

10 A. Every military unit needs to have explosive.

11 Q. Now, you indicated that every military unit needs it. Were there

12 other military units in Bosanski Samac that had explosives?

13 A. Yes, there were other units that had explosives.

14 Q. What other units, if you know, in Bosanski Samac had explosives?

15 A. The Yugoslav People's Army had it, and all the four detachments

16 that surrounded Bosanski Samac had the explosives.

17 Q. And how were you able to state that? What's your basis of

18 knowledge as to that fact, sir, as to those facts?

19 A. I personally saw the explosives when the members of the 4th

20 Detachment drove it, when the bridge on the River Bosna was blown up.

21 Q. All right. Let's move on. Let's move on to February of 1992.

22 Within your unit, were patrols still being utilised?

23 A. Yes, there were patrols that carried out the same type of activity

24 that they did in the previous months.

25 Q. And --

Page 8428

1 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Weiner. I wonder whether you

2 could seek a clarification, page 9, line 20, where the witness says: "I

3 personally saw the explosive when the members of the 4th Detachment drove

4 it." Drove it where? Drove it where, of course, is my question at the

5 end of the quotation.


7 Q. Sir, Judge Williams just had a question for you, and as you heard

8 it, she wanted to know more information about what exactly you saw in

9 relation to this explosive being transported. Could you give us some

10 background, some dates, and tell us what you saw.

11 A. I saw when the explosive was transported on a blue truck that

12 belonged to the agricultural company in Bosanski Samac. It was a blue

13 truck.

14 Q. And what date was this that you saw the explosive being

15 transported on a blue truck?

16 A. On the 25th of April - I know for sure that that is the date - and

17 I also saw it quite some time before that.

18 Q. Now, after you saw it being transported on a blue truck on the

19 25th of April, did something happen in Bosanski Samac on or about that

20 same date?

21 A. Yes. The explosive was transported in the afternoon, and I saw

22 the truck as it turned left towards the bridge on the River Bosna. Around

23 9.00 p.m. there was an explosion, and the bridge was partially blown up.

24 They didn't do it properly. So again, at midnight on the same date,

25 another loud explosion was heard and the bridge was blown up completely.

Page 8429

1 Q. Now, how did you know that members of the 4th Detachment were

2 transporting this quantity of explosive, or some quantity of explosive?

3 A. Because I saw them. From the position where I was, I was able to

4 see all that.

5 Q. And were you able to recognise some of the people involved in the

6 transportation of the explosives?

7 A. Yes, I did recognise some.

8 MR. WEINER: Any further questions, Your Honour?

9 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I didn't, but now you've prompted one, I'll make

10 one. The witness says: "Yes, I did recognise some." Are we going on to

11 hear who the "some" are?

12 MR. WEINER: I was going to do it at a later time, but ...

13 Q. Do you recall any of those individuals who you saw transporting

14 the explosive?

15 A. I saw members of the 4th Detachment. I can say for sure that

16 Fadil Topcagic was there too, and Cviko Tesic.

17 Q. Fadil Topcagic, who you saw with the explosives or with the truck

18 with the explosives, is he related to any of the defendants in this case?

19 A. Yes. He is related to Simo Zaric.

20 Q. Thank you. Let us go back to February 1992. Were you still

21 using -- you indicated you were still using patrols. Were these both

22 daytime and evening patrols?

23 A. Yes, they were both daytime and night-time patrols.

24 Q. And these patrols were strictly being used to make observations;

25 is that correct?

Page 8430

1 A. Yes. As I already said, they were only making observations.

2 Q. Now, sometime in late February or possibly even March, was there

3 an incident that occurred in relation to one of these patrols at the

4 checkpoints?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Please tell the Court what exactly happened.

7 A. At night, around midnight, on our checkpoint there were three of

8 our men in a special car. They were sitting in the car, in the passenger

9 car, and a JNA vehicle came from the direction of Crkvina. This vehicle

10 was -- is known as pinzgauer. Soldiers got out of this vehicle and

11 surrounded the passenger vehicle that our patrol was in. They disarmed

12 them and then they left for Crkvina, which is the same direction that they

13 came from.

14 Q. Let me just --

15 A. This patrol notified me of this incident.

16 Q. All right. Let me just stop you there. You indicated first they

17 were in a special car. Was this car marked in any manner?

18 A. Yes, it was. The colour, the way it looked, the type of car, was

19 just like a JNA car. Other units did not have these vehicles.

20 Q. No. First I was talking about the car that the three men were in,

21 the three men who were members of your unit. Were they in a private

22 vehicle or were they in some sort of military vehicle?

23 A. They were in a private vehicle. This vehicle did not have any

24 marks belonging to any unit. It was just a regular passenger private

25 vehicle.

Page 8431

1 Q. Now, you said the JNA troops came by in something known as a

2 pinzgauer. What is a pinzgauer? Is that a truck or is it a car or ...

3 Please tell the Court what it is.

4 A. This is a typical military vehicle, and it is used for

5 transporting the troops, the people, armed personnel.

6 Q. Now, after you learned of this incident, did you respond in some

7 manner?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Tell the Court what you did.

10 A. This morning, the entrances into the town from the direction of

11 Crkvina were closed, and also the entrance from the direction of east, so

12 the eastern entrance into the town was blocked as well and also the

13 southern entrance into the town.

14 Q. What did you use to block these entrances?

15 A. In both situations, we used buses and one vehicle belonging to the

16 public transportation system. There were also some personal vehicles that

17 were used.

18 Q. What happened in the morning hours, when these roadways, these two

19 roadways, were blocked?

20 A. On these roadblocks were our men, and they were not armed. They

21 had no uniforms on because we didn't have any uniforms. They also did not

22 wear any insignia.

23 Q. What effect did this have on the morning traffic?

24 A. On that morning, no car could enter the town.

25 Q. Did anyone contact you after these roadblocks were established?

Page 8432

1 A. Yes. Tihic contacted me, Sulejman.

2 Q. And did you have some conversation with him?

3 A. Yes, we talked, and I explained to him what was going on.

4 Q. What happened next?

5 A. After that, Tihic and Izetbegovic went to Pelagicevo, and they

6 talked to second colonel -- lieutenant colonel or colonel - I'm not sure.

7 I think he was a lieutenant colonel at the time. His name was Nikolic.

8 Q. As a result of Izet Izetbegovic's and Sulejman Tihic's

9 conversation with Colonel Nikolic, did you receive any further telephone

10 calls?

11 A. Yes. Tihic called me and he said to me that I should remove these

12 roadblocks, and he told me that these three rifles that had been taken

13 away from us will be returned. However, at that moment I didn't agree to

14 this, and I asked for some additional conditions to be met.

15 Q. And what did you request?

16 A. I requested the 4th Detachment to be completely disarmed. I asked

17 for the arms that we had to also be put under a certain kind of control,

18 because before that there had been uncontrolled shooting around the town

19 by the 4th Detachment members. They were scaring the citizens of Bosanski

20 Samac. They were shooting in different parts of town.

21 Q. What happens next?

22 A. After that, Tihic told me that a meeting would be held in Bosanski

23 Samac, and he asked me to remove these roadblocks nevertheless. And he

24 said we would talk in the afternoon to the representatives of the

25 military, the representative of the 4th Detachment, and other political

Page 8433

1 structures in the town.

2 Q. Were the roadblocks removed?

3 A. Yes. Sometime around noon these roadblocks were removed and the

4 situation normalised.

5 Q. How long were those roadblocks erected or present at those two

6 locations?

7 A. About nine or ten hours. That's how it took altogether.

8 Q. Were roadblocks ever erected again by persons under your control

9 or with your involvement?

10 A. No. After that we did not make any more roadblocks.

11 Q. Now, you didn't make any more roadblocks. Did the JNA continue to

12 have its own roadblocks at different locations in the city?

13 A. The JNA had its checkpoints. Those were not typical roadblocks.

14 You couldn't pass unless you had shown your ID and unless they found out

15 what your religion and ethnicity was.

16 Q. So did the JNA and the local Serbs continue to utilize those

17 checkpoints, stopping all persons who entered the city?

18 A. Yes, they continued with all their activities.

19 Q. All right. Let's move on to March of 1992, and at this time let's

20 focus a bit on the defendants. You indicated that you had known Blagoje

21 Simic for many years. Did you know him prior to his becoming involved in

22 politics?

23 A. Yes. I had known him for many years, before he became involved in

24 politics as well.

25 Q. And did you notice any change in him after he had become involved

Page 8434

1 in politics?

2 A. Yes, I did. I noticed certain changes in the mentioned gentleman.

3 Q. Please explain to the Court the changes that you noticed in the

4 defendant Blagoje Simic after he became involved in politics.

5 A. I knew Blagoje Simic as a very nice gentleman. He was a medical

6 doctor. I used to be his patient. I never thought that he would go into

7 politics in such a way. As a matter of fact, I was surprised when,

8 publicly and through the media, I listened to his political speeches. It

9 wasn't a pleasant surprise.

10 Q. What was he saying that wasn't -- that you didn't find pleasant?

11 A. Well, the very fact that he advocated the creation of a Serbian

12 municipality of Samac and the borders that were mentioned and the fact

13 that the municipality should be divided between the Croatian and the

14 Serbian part. Of course, neither Muslims nor Croats agreed with this.

15 Q. Did he make any other statements after being involved in politics

16 relating to Greater Serbia or anything in relation to Serbian nationalism?

17 A. Well, let me say the following: I wasn't very interested in

18 Blagoje Simic's political work. He was a politician. I had other things

19 to do. I was getting ready for the war. So I knew what he was trying to

20 achieve, but that's all I was interested in. I was interested in other

21 things. I was worried about certain things that were happening. Some

22 other politicians could maybe say more about that.

23 Q. You indicated you knew that he was -- what he was trying to

24 achieve. What was he trying to achieve, based on what you had heard?

25 A. He wanted to see the creation of a Serbian municipality of Samac,

Page 8435

1 of a Serbian police. The Serbian military already existed. I think this

2 was a project of a Greater Serbia, but as I said, I think others can

3 testify more about this.

4 Q. Now, you said you knew Miroslav Tadic for many years. Was

5 Miroslav Tadic the owner of a certain business?

6 A. Yes. I said that I had known Miroslav Tadic for about 30-some

7 years. He was the owner of a cafe called AS.

8 Q. And could you tell us: In the winter and spring of 1992 how the

9 Cafe AS was being used?

10 A. Other than its regular activities, this cafe also provided a safe

11 haven for the members of the 4th Detachment. This is where they

12 gathered. If they had something -- if they had to collect some money

13 their duties that they did, that's what they would do, and so, in other

14 words, other than regular patrons, the members of the 4th Detachment also

15 gathered at this cafe.

16 Q. Did military individuals other than those in the 4th Detachment

17 also visit the Cafe AS?

18 A. Yes. Those that were around the town, those that were located

19 around the town, members of those units would also come to this cafe from

20 time to time.

21 Q. When you say "members of those units," are you referring to

22 members of the JNA army?

23 A. I am referring to JNA members, and I'm also referring to the

24 Chetnik unit, the Grey Wolves. They would also come to the cafe.

25 Q. How do you know Serbian paramilitaries known as the Grey Wolves

Page 8436

1 were visiting Miroslav Tadic's Cafe AS?

2 A. Well, as I had said, we had these patrols around the town, and

3 they were monitoring what was going on, and naturally, the Cafe AS was

4 also monitored. We would monitor who was coming in and coming out of it,

5 so that the people that were in the patrols monitoring the town noticed

6 these men, and also the very members of the 4th Detachment would give me

7 their reports, and they confirmed this.

8 Q. You indicated that it was a safe haven. Was the location of the

9 Cafe AS significant in relation to why it was being used?

10 A. Well, if I were to choose a cafe, if I belonged to that side, I

11 would have chosen that same place. It is outside of the very town centre,

12 and it was in an area populated more by Serbs. There was Novo Naselje

13 there, then Pisari, then Skaric, and so on. So I think this was a

14 well-chosen location for something like this.

15 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Fitozovic, I wonder whether you could

16 clarify. You mentioned, page 18, line 6, this is a quotation: "Also, the

17 very members of the 4th Detachment would give me their reports, and they

18 confirmed this." I wonder whether you could clarify who these very

19 members of the 4th Detachment who reported to you and confirmed that Cafe

20 AS was being used in the manner you describe were, if you could tell us

21 who these persons were.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 4th Detachment, as I have said

23 before, I described the way it was created. It was created by two

24 political parties that existed in Bosanski Samac. Those two were SDP and

25 Movement for Yugoslavia. And technically speaking, it had the support of

Page 8437

1 the JNA, and it also had the material support of the JNA. And anybody,

2 whoever wanted to, could join it. So people belonging to my ethnic group

3 also joined the 4th Detachment, and also some people that I sent and asked

4 to become members of the 4th Detachment.

5 JUDGE WILLIAMS: And perhaps you could give some examples of who

6 these persons were who reported back to you, who these "very members," in

7 your words, of the 4th Detachment were who reported back to you on this.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In order to be a little bit clearer,

9 I'll say the following: Those were the people that belonged to the unit

10 that I created, but their job was also to join the 4th Detachment so that

11 we could know what was going on at the 4th Detachment. All the

12 information was transmitted in such a way, directly from the 4th

13 Detachment I would get information.

14 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Fitozovic, maybe Mr. Weiner could clarify for

15 you.

16 I was asking who, not the general, but the specific.

17 MR. WEINER: Okay. If we're going to do that, number one, I don't

18 know if he's going to be willing to turn over the name of his informers,

19 but I think we should probably go to closed session. I don't know if

20 these people are still living there, living in Bosanski Samac.

21 JUDGE WILLIAMS: That's fine, Mr. Weiner. We'll leave that line

22 of questioning for myself.


24 Q. Without naming any names, sir, one question: How many of these

25 persons did you have that infiltrated the 4th Detachment?

Page 8438

1 A. I said at the beginning that there were two men, and then, as time

2 went by, as the aggression against Bosanski Samac was getting closer, this

3 number increased to about ten, and they had a very specific job to do

4 within the 4th Detachment.

5 Q. All right. Now, were you able to learn, in March or April, who,

6 at least on paper, was the commander of the 4th Detachment?

7 A. The commander of the 4th Detachment was Radovan Antic.

8 Q. Based on what you had seen, as well as what you were learning from

9 your infiltrators, who did you learn was in reality the commander of the

10 4th Detachment?

11 A. That was Simo Zaric, although I would like to add something more:

12 Other than this position that he held here, he also had distinct duties

13 inside the command of the 17th Tactical Group. I think that was his main

14 duty. Here, on the other hand, he used his influence, his reputation.

15 This person that I already mentioned, Radovan Antic, didn't have any of

16 that, but Simo Zaric did. But it cannot be disputed that he was the

17 commander of the 4th Detachment, of the morale part of the 4th Detachment.

18 Q. Now, who did you learn was coordinating all the day-to-day

19 operations and activities of the 4th Detachment?

20 A. Simo Zaric. I had an opportunity to talk to him about the

21 situation a number of times, about the situation in the town of Samac.

22 Q. Who from the 4th Detachment was working and meeting with Colonel

23 Nikolic and the JNA leaders?

24 A. As far as I know, that was Simo Zaric.

25 Q. Now, I'd like to continue on in March.

Page 8439

1 MR. WEINER: May the witness please be shown Exhibit 6/4 and 6/4

2 ter.

3 Q. Sir, it might be easier if you could try and read it right off the

4 machine as opposed to the computer.

5 A. I can see it like this as well.

6 Q. Can you tell us what that is?

7 A. This document is a document about issuing certain things, items,

8 and the name is Ratif Atic.

9 Q. And is that a receipt for ammunition, sir?

10 A. It's not a receipt. It is a document confirming issuance of

11 certain items. This means that Ratif Atic was issued these items that are

12 mentioned on this page.

13 Q. And could you read exactly what he received?

14 A. Long Luger 9 millimetres. This is a bullet, 5.000 pieces.

15 Number 2, 7.62, armoured person [As interpreted] bullets, 2.520 pieces.

16 And then the next one is armour person bullets -- ordinary bullets, 1260

17 is the number of items. Number 4 is ammunition in clip, and number 5 is a

18 ROB, ten pieces.

19 Q. The majority of bullets are Luger-type bullets. What are those

20 for?

21 A. They're used for the automatic weapons that we discussed, the 30

22 pieces of automatic weapons. The 5.000 pieces referred to precisely the

23 ammunition for that type of weapons.

24 Q. So those were 5.000 bullets or shells for those old World War II

25 rifles, those old World War II German rifles?

Page 8440

1 A. Yes, that's correct.

2 Q. And the remaining bullets, were those for the other rifles that

3 you had obtained?

4 A. Yes. The ammunition listed under 2 and 3 and 4, this is the

5 ammunition for the weapons that we had obtained, I mean the 20 automatic

6 rifles.

7 Q. And what about the ammunition listed under 5?

8 A. That's the hand grenade, the defensive hand grenade, M-75. It's

9 used for defensive purposes.

10 Q. And that receipt is dated March 2nd, 1992?

11 A. Yes, the 2nd of March. That's correct.

12 MR. WEINER: Thank you, Mr. Usher.

13 Q. Now, sir, I'd like you to continue on, and let's discuss another

14 incident which occurred late in March, possibly early in April, and it was

15 a shooting involving individuals by the name of Danilo and Tota. Do you

16 recall the incident that I'm mentioning?

17 A. Yes, I do remember that incident.

18 Q. Could you tell the Court, as best you can recall, what had

19 happened on that day?

20 A. On that day, at around 1600 hours, Osman Mesic came to my

21 apartment. He came in his car, which was a Golf. He was quite upset. He

22 told me that we had to get away from the town because the members of the

23 4th Detachment wanted to kill us that very evening, at 11.00 p.m.

24 precisely. And he suggested that we flee towards Rijeka, which is in the

25 Republic of Croatia. I calmed him down and I told him that such stories

Page 8441

1 were going around over the past four or five months and that it was not a

2 big deal because that was how the psychological operations were conducted,

3 psychological warfare. He did not listen to me, and he went to Rijeka, so

4 I didn't manage to convince him to stay. He went to Rijeka.

5 That day I had some meetings, and at around 10.30 I went to a cafe

6 called Molla. And at 11.00, precisely, a yellow Lada car stopped in front

7 of the cafe. There were three people inside the car. The driver was

8 Mersad Mesic, who was a butcher in the town. Izet Ramusovic, Tota; and

9 Danilo. I don't remember his last name. At that moment, the person

10 sitting in the passenger seat and the person sitting behind the driver

11 started rolling down the windows slowly, the windows on the car, and they

12 started pointing their automatic weapons at the entrance to the Molla

13 cafe. At that moment a shot was fired from a pistol. That shot was fired

14 by the driver, the butcher that I just mentioned. In the meantime, in the

15 immediate vicinity of the building there was a police patrol, I mean the

16 reserve police, and before they opened fire on the Molla cafe, where I

17 was - there were also some other patrons there - the reserve police

18 officers opened fire on the yellow Lada car. The car stopped later, but

19 as soon as the shot was fired from the pistol, they started driving, and

20 then some 50 or 60 metres later the car stopped and all three members of

21 the 4th Detachment were wounded. They were members of the 4th Detachment.

22 Q. Just a couple of matters, sir, with regard to your story about

23 what had occurred. You mentioned the name of Tota Ramusovic. Tota has a

24 brother Izet, who is a plumber. Do you know Tota's first name? Was

25 Tota's first name Izet or something else?

Page 8442

1 A. Tota's name I think is Nizam. Izet is his brother, Izet

2 Ramusovic. Later on he became the member of the Territorial Defence in

3 Bosanski Samac, and I have to apologise for this mistake. Nizam

4 Ramusovic, nicknamed Tota.

5 Q. So Izet Ramusovic wasn't present at this incident?

6 A. No, no, he wasn't.

7 Q. Now, Tota, Mersad, and Danilo, were they members of any military

8 organisation?

9 A. Yes. As I have already said, they were members of the 4th

10 Detachment.

11 Q. Now, Tota was of what ethnic group?

12 A. He was a Muslim or a Montenegrin. I'm not sure. But I think he

13 was a Muslim.

14 Q. Now, you indicated that there were Muslims within the 4th

15 Detachment?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. And could you describe the types of people that were in the 4th

18 Detachment, basically with regard to the Muslims? What could you -- how

19 could you describe them?

20 A. These were mostly people who were not -- who were poor, of low

21 social background, many of them were unemployed at the time, and the 4th

22 Detachment paid its members.

23 Q. Were there any criminals among the Muslim members of the 4th

24 Detachment?

25 A. Yes, there were criminals.

Page 8443

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

2 MR. PANTELIC: Objection. I think the form of this question was

3 not properly made, because this witness obviously cannot testify whether

4 someone is criminal or not. Maybe the other way could be more

5 appropriate, because it's rather a narrow issue to judge whether someone

6 is criminal or not.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Well, yes, because counsel could ask whether he knew

8 of them having any criminal records.

9 MR. PANTELIC: That's correct, yes.


11 Q. Of the Muslims who were members of the 4th Detachment, were you

12 aware that any of them possessed criminal records?

13 A. Yes, I do know that most of them had criminal records with the

14 police.

15 Q. And were these persons that had criminal records given guns by the

16 4th Detachment?

17 A. Yes, they were given guns.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: When I talked about criminal records, I was

19 referring to a person who has been prosecuted in a criminal court and been

20 convicted, not just somebody whom the police have questioned. So if you

21 can clarify that.


23 Q. Based on your knowledge of some of these persons, were you aware

24 that any of these persons that you indicated were criminals had been

25 prosecuted and convicted of crimes?

Page 8444

1 A. Yes, I do know that some had served sentences in prison. They had

2 been prosecuted before a criminal court and they went to prison. I don't

3 know the type of criminal offences for which they were tried, but they

4 were -- none of them was convicted of murder.

5 Q. That's good to know. Let us move to April 1992. What was the

6 atmosphere in Bosanski Samac in April of 1992?

7 A. The atmosphere in April - and this is quite logical, in fact - was

8 more complex than in the months before. The shooting all over the town

9 continued, done by the 4th Detachment. They were diversions or sabotages

10 on, for instance, the transmission lines leading towards the Republic of

11 Croatia, and also on the buildings that were privately owned by Muslims

12 and Croats.

13 Q. You talked about sabotages. Could you please describe what you

14 mean by "sabotages of privately owned buildings or homes of Muslims or

15 Croats"? What happened in these instances?

16 A. As far as I know, in the village of Skaric, on the boundary

17 between the Bosanski Samac town and Skaric, a building belonging to Hasan

18 Ceribasic was destroyed. Now, whether it was blown up or set alight, I

19 can't tell you for sure, but at any rate, it was destroyed. Then a

20 building owned by Begmin Adman - I can't remember the name - Kapetanovic

21 was also destroyed. And in the immediate vicinity of my apartment, 70

22 metres from where my bedroom was, a stall or a kiosk owned by Mr. Grga

23 Zubak was blown up. Then the power transmission lines were blown up in

24 March and in April. So the sabotages followed each other.

25 Q. Now, these power transmission lines that were blown up, did those

Page 8445

1 affect the electrical power within Bosnia?

2 A. No. As the result of these sabotages, the eastern part of the

3 Republic of Croatia no longer had power. That means the Osijek, Vukovar,

4 Vinkovci area.

5 Q. And at that time was the Republic of Croatia involved in a war?

6 A. Yes. At that time, war was going on in the Republic of Croatia.

7 Q. Between the Republic of Croatia and whom?

8 A. Between the Republic of Croatia and Yugoslavia, or the Yugoslav

9 People's Army, or the Yugoslav army.

10 Q. And were people tense or nervous or upset after these incidents

11 were occurring?

12 A. As I have already said, the situation was such that things were

13 coming to a head. There were shootings, those sabotages, and then the

14 exchanges from the Republic of Croatia took place through Bosanski Samac,

15 and sometimes the buses would stop in Bosanski Samac, full of people who

16 had to be exchanged in Croatia, or rather, the refugees from Vukovar were

17 on those buses. The reason why I mentioned this is because this also led

18 to a polarisation in the town. On the one hand, there were the Muslims

19 and Croats, and on the other, there were Serbs. When we learned or saw

20 that these poor people from Vukovar came to Bosanski Samac to be

21 exchanged, we got organised and we prepared coffee, tea, hamburgers or

22 kebabs for them. On some occasions the funds from the SDA were used to

23 provide some assistance for these people who were on their way to Croatia,

24 to feed them, and this caused problems in the town. Even the humanitarian

25 acts that we did bothered somebody.

Page 8446

1 Q. Now, these people who run these buses that were brought from

2 Vukovar, Croatia, into Bosanski Samac, of what ethnic group did they

3 belong?

4 A. They were ethnic Croats.

5 Q. Now, during the end of the first week of April 1992, did the

6 Bosnia-Herzegovinian presidency issue a decision?

7 A. Yes. The presidency and the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina

8 issued a decision about the -- in fact, they issued an order on the

9 establishment of the municipal staffs of the Territorial Defence.

10 Q. And could you tell us what that order was?

11 A. The order was issued in the written form. I don't know if I

12 understood your question correctly.

13 Q. No. Could you just summarise what the order was about? Tell the

14 Court, please, as best you can.

15 A. The order stated that the presidency and the government of Bosnia

16 and Herzegovina, and so on and so forth, issued an order on the

17 establishment of the municipal staffs of the Territorial Defence, in light

18 of the fact that the staffs of the Territorial Defence that had existed

19 until that date did not function, or in the municipalities where they

20 existed, or where Serbs in fact lived. They engaged in certain activities

21 for the JNA.

22 Q. Now, as a result of this order, did it have any affect on the

23 happenings in Bosanski Samac?

24 A. Yes, it did have an effect. It was a two-fold effect. When the

25 order came, the order on the establishment of the reorganised TO municipal

Page 8447

1 staffs, the residents of the Bosanski Samac municipality received this

2 very gladly, and they thought that this whole thing would end and that all

3 the weapons, the huge amounts of weapons that existed in the town, would

4 end up under the control of a single entity. On the other hand, when this

5 order came in, the situation in the town became even more complex. The

6 shootings occurred again, the provocations by the members of the 4th

7 Detachment occurred again.

8 Q. Now, was a meeting held in response to this order from the

9 presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

10 A. Yes. Immediately after the notification of this order was

11 received, the multiparty talks were held in the municipality. Of course,

12 the SDS refused to accept this. The other two leading parties accepted

13 the establishment of the Territorial Defence, and on the basis of these

14 talks and agreements that had been reached, it was proposed that the

15 commander of the newly established Territorial Defence would be Marko

16 Bozanovic, and the chief of staff of the Territorial Defence -- I was

17 supposed to be the chief of staff.

18 I think that the proposal was dispatched to Sarajevo on that very

19 same day, and I was appointed to the post of the Chief of Staff of the TO

20 of the Bosanski Samac municipality on the 10th of April, 1992.

21 Q. Now, even prior to that, sometime after the order came down from

22 the presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina, did you start doing something as a

23 result of that order?

24 A. Since the situation was getting more and more complex, as I have

25 already said, there were rumours in the town that the Territorial Defence

Page 8448

1 would be established and people started getting interested in that:

2 Muslims, Croats, and Serbs alike. And in this sense -- at any rate, we

3 had an opinion poll done in the town itself, and the residents were able

4 to put their signature, put their name and their ID number, without being

5 forced to do so, of their own free will, so they were able to also put

6 down what their specialty was in the former JNA. A large number of

7 residents responded, and when they saw what was going on, they all sought

8 weapons, but we had only the 50 rifles that we had in December, as I have

9 already explained here.

10 MR. WEINER: Your Honours, is it time for our afternoon break?

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We'll have our break and resume our

12 proceedings at 1615 hours.

13 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution is continuing.

16 MR. WEINER: Good afternoon, Your Honours.

17 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Fitozovic. Let us continue.

18 A. Good afternoon.

19 Q. You told us that you took a poll to determine the interest within

20 Bosanski Samac of the TO. How did you do this? Did you make calls on the

21 telephone? Did you set up a polling booth? How did you go about doing

22 this?

23 A. We did the poll publicly, in the centre of the town, before the

24 official reorganised Territorial Defence was set up.

25 Q. Was this after the decision came down from the presidency of

Page 8449

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

2 A. This was before the decision of the presidency and the government

3 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, as well as after the decision of the government and

4 the presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina about the setting up of the new

5 Territorial Defence.

6 Q. And there was a great deal of interest in the re-establishment of

7 the Territorial Defence, isn't that correct?

8 A. Yes, that's correct.

9 Q. Now, you indicated at some point Marko Bozanovic was nominated as

10 commander and you were nominated as chief of staff, and your names were

11 sent along to Sarajevo. Is that correct, sir?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. Now, did you pay a visit to the Territorial Defence building in

14 Bosanski Samac?

15 A. Yes, I paid a visit to the Territorial Defence building.

16 Q. On what date?

17 A. The 13th of April, 1992.

18 Q. And what was the condition of the interior: The desks, records?

19 A. As far as the offices in the building were concerned, everything

20 was empty. The desks were empty, the shelves were empty. And the

21 warehouse had been emptied of weapons before.

22 Q. What about records of the persons who had performed military

23 service in the community? What happened to the records?

24 A. In the staff of the Territorial Defence itself, we did not find

25 any documentation that would say anything about the organisation of the

Page 8450

1 former TO or of the names of the members of the TO or the reserve of the

2 TO. It's important to emphasise that these same records, that is to say,

3 the entire military documentation, was taken by the JNA. This entire

4 military documentation that was at the Secretariat for National Defence

5 had been taken to Brcko before by the JNA.

6 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I was planning to show him three

7 photographs. I know you -- both Judges here are quite familiar with the

8 photographs, but I thought it might be helpful to Judge Lindholm when he

9 gets back and reviews the video to see three different photographs from

10 different angles of the TO and its relation to the SUP or police

11 department.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You can go ahead.

13 MR. WEINER: May I see from Exhibit 14A photographs 50, 2, and 4,

14 please. Photograph 50, please.

15 Q. Sir, that is photograph 50 from Prosecutor's Exhibit 14A. Do you

16 recognise the building in front of you?

17 A. Yes. This is the Territorial Defence building, the building of

18 the staff of the Territorial Defence; and this in the background is the

19 warehouse of the TO.

20 Q. And is there a courtyard in the middle, sir?

21 A. Yes. This is where the yard is, here, behind this building.

22 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, for the record, the witness has pointed

23 to a building directly in front of the picture, or directly -- slightly to

24 the right of the picture, which is behind a white car and a black car, and

25 he's indicated that that is the TO building; that the yard to the left is

Page 8451

1 the courtyard and the building behind is the warehousing buildings.


3 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

4 Q. Would you please look at photograph 2. Do you recognise the

5 buildings and area depicted in this photograph?

6 A. Yes. This is the building of the SUP, the police, of the Bosanski

7 Samac municipality, and it was taken from the courtyard of the Territorial

8 Defence courtyard -- Territorial Defence staff building. So this is the

9 courtyard of the TO building. This is where the warehouse is and this is

10 part of the main building. And this was the garage, in the back.

11 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, for the record, photograph 2 depicts the

12 courtyard of the Territorial Defence, and directly across from the

13 Territorial Defence and the courtyard is the SUP, or the police department

14 of Bosanski Samac.


16 MR. WEINER: Thank you. And could you finally show the witness

17 photograph 4.

18 Q. Sir, do you recognise the buildings depicted in photograph 4?

19 A. Yes, I do. This is a photograph that was also taken from the

20 courtyard. This is the main building, from the back. These are the

21 auxiliary rooms. It's true that they have been run down somewhat, but

22 this also belonged to the Territorial Defence.

23 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, again, in photograph 2, it depicts the

24 courtyard. The building, if you're facing the photograph, to the right is

25 the Territorial Defence, and the building straight ahead, he indicated, is

Page 8452

1 an auxiliary building of the Territorial Defence.


3 MR. WEINER: Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Usher.

4 Q. Now, sir, with Marko Bozanovic did you begin to reorganise the

5 Territorial Defence?

6 A. Yes. We immediately started to reorganise the Territorial

7 Defence.

8 Q. And as part of that, did you try to recruit new members?

9 A. Before we started recruiting new members, when we entered the

10 building of the TO, we convened all the members of the former staff of the

11 TO, and we held a meeting with them. And the subject of the meeting was

12 whether they wanted to continue being members of the Territorial Defence,

13 of the new Territorial Defence. Since the former staff of the Territorial

14 Defence was mostly formed from Serbs, two Muslims, and maybe two or three

15 Croats, not everybody agreed to become members of the Territorial

16 Defence. That is to say, not everybody agreed to become members of the TO

17 staff, of the leadership of the TO, if that's clearer.

18 Q. Now, sir, as part of attracting people to the Territorial Defence,

19 did you use the radio? Did you appear on any radio programmes?

20 A. Yes. On the 13th of April, 1992, I had an interview on the local

21 radio station of Bosanski Samac, and there I informed the population of

22 Bosanski Samac that a new Territorial Defence had been created, and I

23 asked them to become members, that is to say, to register with the new

24 Territorial Defence. We weren't doing this on the streets any more. We

25 were doing it in Room 1, which you could see on the first photograph that

Page 8453

1 we had just looked at. You could see that very office on that photograph.

2 And on the very first day, the turnout was quite large.

3 Q. Now, based on this turnout or these enlistments, and also

4 considering your extensive military background, did you develop any sort

5 of organisational plan, including certain units and the personnel that you

6 wanted in each of these units? Did you develop any sort of plan for this

7 Territorial Defence that you were putting together?

8 A. Yes, I did. I made a plan.

9 Q. Could you explain what you did? And then I'll show you some

10 exhibits which I believe relate to that plan.

11 A. Based on the previous survey that we had done publicly in the

12 town, of those members that registered voluntarily, who wanted to join the

13 TO, of their names and their specialty that they had from the JNA, the

14 former JNA, I made a framework how certain units within the new

15 Territorial Defence could look.

16 MR. WEINER: Could I see Exhibit D22/2, 16 and 17/1. For ID, yes.

17 We can do one at a time. If you can get 16 and 17/1. Mr. Usher, we can

18 do one at a time. We have a number that we have to go through.

19 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, in front of you is Exhibit D22/2 ID. Would you

20 look at it, please, and tell me if you recognise it.

21 A. Yes, I recognise it.

22 Q. What is it?

23 A. This is the 4th, or Medical Squad, and it says here who the

24 commander is, and then below are the members of this unit.

25 Q. Who drafted this unit plan?

Page 8454

1 A. The plan was drafted by me.

2 Q. Why did you put those particular people into that planned unit?

3 A. It is important to mention the following, but I will first answer.

4 I put these people in this unit because they were connected with their

5 profession to these duties. [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 What I wanted to mention is the following: When I was making this

13 list, based on the survey, the members of this squad at that time didn't

14 know that they had been given these duties. They knew that they belonged

15 to the Territorial Defence, but they didn't know at that time what duties

16 they would be assigned within the Territorial Defence.

17 Q. I just want to stop him for one second.

18 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, this document is under seal, so I just

19 want to notify the audiovisual not to display it on the screen. I think

20 the Defence -- the defendants have had enough time to look at the

21 document.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.


24 Q. Could you please continue? I'm sorry for interrupting you. So

25 basically, you were indicating that you were just putting these plans

Page 8455

1 together and you had never had the opportunity to tell any of these people

2 that they had been selected and placed in this unit; is that correct?

3 A. Yes, that's correct. These lists were created two days before the

4 aggression, so that I had no opportunity to gather this squad or any other

5 unit. And that is very important to know because of the people that were

6 on these lists, that they themselves, and I repeat, they themselves, did

7 not know what their duties would be inside the new Territorial Defence.

8 We were just beginning to work on the plans. We were interrupted by the

9 aggression, so that we could not complete these documents.

10 Q. Now, the document in front of you, is it a fair and accurate

11 representation of the document which you prepared back in 1992?

12 A. Yes, it resembles that document.

13 Q. And have any changes been made, omissions, deletions, changes to

14 that document, other than the work which you had done?

15 A. As far as I can see, only the highlight and the number 7 has been

16 circled. I did not do that.

17 Q. And what happened to this document? What did you do once you

18 completed it? Or what happened with this draft? Did you bring it home?

19 Did you bring it to the TO, the Territorial Defence?

20 A. I put this in my briefcase because this Territorial Defence had

21 not been consolidated yet. As I said, everything was empty. Some people

22 were taking items out. Somebody was taking out a radio, somebody was

23 taking out a plant pot, and I didn't dare leave this document in the

24 Territorial Defence, because there were some other people hovering around,

25 some other people that did not want to join the new Territorial Defence.

Page 8456

1 Q. And what happened to those documents in your briefcase on April

2 17th, 1992?

3 A. This document was found while my apartment was looted.

4 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I'd like to move this as an exhibit,

5 move it into evidence at this time. It can remain under seal, but all of

6 the other similar type documents have been admitted, and I'd ask that this

7 one be admitted too.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: I would like to hear from the Defence. There's no

9 objection, I take it? All right.

10 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. On behalf of all Defence team,

11 we don't have any objection.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

13 Can we have the number?

14 THE REGISTRAR: May I just request the Prosecution to reconfirm

15 with me which exact document you are...

16 MR. WEINER: Both 22/2 and 22 --


18 MR. WEINER: I and 22/2 ter.

19 THE REGISTRAR: So this will go in the Prosecution Exhibit, even

20 though it was submitted by the Defence.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It's the Prosecution who are moving it to be

22 an exhibit, yes.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. This will be P65/ter and P65, Your

24 Honours. Thank you.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

Page 8457


2 Q. And just one question. The statement across the top, stating what

3 type of list that is, is that "Medical Unit"? Is that what it says across

4 the top of that document?

5 A. Yes, Medical Squad.

6 Q. Thank you. Would you look at the next document, please, 17/1 and

7 17/1 ter.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner, we're just trying to find out. This is

9 the document which was under seal?

10 MR. WEINER: Yes.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Do you still want -- the one which you've just moved

12 as an exhibit, do you still want it under seal?

13 MR. WEINER: Yes. It was under seal at the time because it

14 related to a protected witness, and they highlighted the name of a

15 relative of a protected witness and they also circled the number in

16 relation to that name.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: I see.

18 MR. WEINER: And it could remain under seal. I have ... If

19 there's a --

20 JUDGE MUMBA: So we keep it under seal.

21 MR. WEINER: Yes, please.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, to prevent any

24 confusion, if this is the document D22/2, that is the document that has

25 already been marked on the 14th of February it was presented by my

Page 8458

1 colleague Mr. Zecevic during the examination of Witness G, and at that

2 time the document was already marked, and it no longer had the

3 identification mark. So I don't think that it's necessary for the

4 document to get any other number, because if this is the document we're

5 talking about, it was described as "the medical corps document."

6 MR. WEINER: We still have it listed as an ID.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I can see -- because we received the update on

8 exhibits.

9 THE REGISTRAR: If I may help, Your Honours.


11 THE REGISTRAR: Documents D22A down to D22/I were admitted on the

12 19th of February, 2002.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: I see. So they are already exhibits as Defence

14 exhibits?

15 THE REGISTRAR: And they are all under seal. Thank you.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: I see. So we have to retract the number which was

17 announced as P65. Yes. So they will retain the original number.

18 Yes, we can proceed.


20 Q. All right. Would you look at that next document, sir, and could

21 you read the title along the top, please.

22 A. Yes. That's, "Hunters' Squad."

23 Q. Who prepared that document?

24 A. I drafted this document, although some numbers here are not

25 printed in the proper manner, which is not the way that I would do it, but

Page 8459

1 the names correspond.

2 Q. Now, how did you select people for this squad?

3 A. The Hunters' Squad was made up of licensed hunters who were

4 registered with the municipal hunters' association. The men listed here

5 on this list, under 1 through 9, and also the persons listed under 1 and

6 2, and the commander, signed the document, indicating that they

7 voluntarily joined the Territorial Defence of the Bosanski Samac

8 municipality.

9 Q. When you say that they signed the document, you're not referring

10 to this particular document, this Hunters' Squad document. Are you

11 talking about the document that you signed if you were interested in

12 joining the Territorial Defence?

13 A. Yes, that's precisely the document I'm talking about. And I just

14 wanted to note here that the members of the Territorial Defence listed

15 here did not know, because there was no time to learn, that they were

16 members of this squad.

17 Q. And approximately what date was this list prepared?

18 A. I think that I prepared it on the 14th or 15th of April, 1992.

19 Q. Okay. Thank you very much. Could you look at the next exhibit,

20 16/1?

21 MR. WEINER: And place 16/1 ter on the ELMO.

22 Q. And while we're looking at this, could we also get two more ready:

23 8/2 and 24/2. Thank you.

24 Now, what is the title on the top of this document? We're

25 referring to 16/1 and 16/1 ter. Could you please read the title out.

Page 8460

1 A. This is the Communications Squad.

2 Q. And who selected the people for this squad?

3 A. I selected these people.

4 Q. And who drafted this list of people in the Communication Squad, or

5 the Communication Section, that's depicted on the screen in front of you?

6 A. I made the list.

7 Q. Now, approximately when was this list drafted?

8 A. All the lists were made in a single day.

9 Q. And this list here, is this similar to the others, where the

10 persons assigned to this squad were never notified of this assignment?

11 A. Yes, that's correct. For instance, in the Communications Squad,

12 the commander -- may I read out his name?

13 Q. Sure. No problem.

14 A. The commander of the squad was Safet Hadzialijagic. He didn't

15 know that he was the commander of the squad, and neither did the others

16 listed here, listed under 1 through 9. Perhaps some of them did know,

17 because there was the electronic communications, the courier

18 communications, all kinds of communications, and these people were

19 selected on the basis of the lists where people reported voluntarily to

20 join the Territorial Defence of the Bosanski Samac municipality.

21 Q. All right. Thank you very much. Let's go on to the next one.

22 MR. WEINER: Could the registry just confirm this next one, 8/2

23 and 8/2 ter is an ID, it's not an exhibit at this time? That's what our

24 records indicate here.

25 THE REGISTRAR: That is correct, Mr. Weiner. It's still a

Page 8461

1 document, not an exhibit. Thank you.

2 MR. WEINER: Thank you very much. You're welcome.

3 Q. Could you read the title of this document, sir?

4 A. The title of this document -- first of all, this is attachment

5 number 4.2, copy number -- it's entitled the Anti-Sabotage Squad.

6 Q. What was an anti-sabotage squad?

7 A. The plan was for this squad to be part of the Territorial Defence

8 of a unit formed by the Territorial Defence.

9 Q. And did you select the persons that were placed on this list?

10 A. Yes, I did select the persons on this list, but here, person under

11 5 it says here "arrested," and I didn't arrest anyone. I don't know what

12 happened to number 7, because I can't see it, whether he was killed or

13 arrested. I can't really read it. But I couldn't put the words

14 "arrested" or "killed" on this list.

15 Q. The list -- or first: You drafted this particular list; is that

16 correct?

17 A. Yes, that is correct.

18 Q. And you typed it up, or did you have someone type it?

19 A. It is quite certain that I did not type up this list. Perhaps

20 somebody else did it for me.

21 Q. And the words that you did not include there, the "arrested" and

22 then across from number 7 some other words, those aren't typewritten;

23 isn't that correct?

24 A. That is correct. They're not typed.

25 Q. Okay. Now, how did you determine who was going to be on that

Page 8462

1 list, on the Anti-Sabotage Squad or Unit?

2 A. I decided to include the persons who had undergone training in the

3 former Yugoslav People's Army for such operations. In some cases I went a

4 bit further and I included those who were a bit braver than others, those

5 who were not scared.

6 Q. And with the others, were any of these persons notified that they

7 had been assigned to this unit and their name was placed on a list?

8 A. As in the previous cases, all these persons had signed, indicating

9 that they were willing to join the Territorial Defence voluntarily, and on

10 the basis of their declarations and their signatures, I assigned them to

11 the Anti-Sabotage Squad. Of course, they were not notified of their

12 assignment to the Anti-Sabotage Squad.

13 Q. Okay. Thank you. Let's go to the last document of this type.

14 This document, number 24/2, is under seal, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we get confirmation?

16 MR. WEINER: And is ID.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Is that the correct record from the Registry?

18 THE REGISTRAR: That is correct, Your Honours. It's 24/2 ID, ter

19 ID, and it's under seal. Thank you.

20 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, could we move into private session or

21 closed session for a few moments so we could discuss this document? And

22 if necessary, could we display it in front of the defendants so they can

23 see ahead of time what it is.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Which one.

25 MR. WEINER: This document 24/2 ID.

Page 8463

1 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Can we go into private session?

2 MR. WEINER: It will be brief.

3 [Private session]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 8464












12 Page 8464 redacted private session














Page 8465

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [Open session]

24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, if I may reconfirm that D24/2 and

25 D24/2 ter will now remain Exhibit P65 and P65 ter, and this document is

Page 8466

1 under seal.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. We are now in open session.

3 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

4 Q. Now, previously you talked about preparing a list of persons who

5 were interested in joining the TO. About how many names did you have on

6 that list?

7 A. Well, on the first day of work in the new municipal TO staff, in

8 addition to the 200 people that had already been registered, around 150

9 people reported to the premises of the Territorial Defence, because we no

10 longer had any reason to continue doing it in the streets, we did it in

11 the premises of the Territorial Defence.

12 Q. And was a list prepared, at least of the first 200 that had

13 registered or indicated an interest in joining the TO?

14 A. Yes, a list was made.

15 MR. WEINER: I'd like to show him D14/4. I'll bring it over, just

16 to speed things up. He's back. The usher can bring it over.

17 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, do you recognise that list?

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 Q. And what is it?

20 A. This is the list of the citizens of Bosanski Samac who organised

21 themselves for the purpose of the defence of the town.

22 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, for the benefits of our clients,

23 could it be put on the ELMO?

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have it on the ELMO?

25 MR. WEINER: No problem with that, Your Honour.

Page 8467

1 Q. Who prepared that list?

2 A. I did not make this list.

3 Q. Do you know who prepared the list?

4 A. I'm trying to remember the actual name. At any rate, it's not

5 important. I am familiar with this list.

6 Q. And what was that list supposed to be?

7 A. This list was supposed to be the list of all the future members of

8 the Territorial Defence. So this is a general list made on the basis of

9 the survey that had been conducted, and this list was made before the

10 official entry into the premises of the Territorial Defence was made. The

11 list was therefore prepared maybe a week before, around the 7th or 8th,

12 and it was not prepared in the premises of the Territorial Defence.

13 Q. Was it ever officially sent to the premises of the Territorial

14 Defence?

15 A. Yes. This list was sent to the Territorial Defence, but I didn't

16 receive it. As the chief of the staff of the TO, I did not receive this

17 list.

18 Q. Under what circumstances did you receive the list?

19 A. I received it as a member of the already mentioned Commission for

20 Security, because this commission operated up until the aggression.

21 Q. Okay. And was this -- did someone ever send this list eventually

22 to the Territorial Defence, a list of people who were interested in

23 joining the Territorial Defence?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you. Now, at some point in mid-April, you have

Page 8468

1 approximately 300 or more people, as many as 350 people who were

2 interested in becoming members of the Territorial Defence. Did you have

3 uniforms for these people?

4 A. No, we did not have uniforms for these people.

5 Q. Did you ever distribute uniforms to anyone who had joined the

6 Territorial Defence?

7 A. There were maybe about five camouflage uniforms that I received,

8 and I think I gave them to two or three men. But I claim that nobody ever

9 wore these uniforms.

10 Q. Did you have arms or weapons for all of these people interested in

11 joining the Territorial Defence?

12 A. No, we did not have arms for all the men. We didn't even have

13 even remotely the number that we needed, and the pressure was

14 unrelentless. They all wanted to get arms. They all asked to get arms.

15 Q. What about patches? Did you have any patches for people to wear

16 on their shoulders or wherever?

17 A. Unfortunately, at the time when I was trying to gather some

18 materiel [Realtime transcript read in error "material"] items, I got some

19 patches, but nobody ever really wore them, I don't think.

20 Q. Had you held any training sessions for these new members?

21 A. No.

22 Q. And had you given out any assignments? Had you told people that

23 they were being assigned to units?

24 A. I had no time to tell them about that.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

Page 8469

1 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. This is the page 50, line 14 and

2 16. I believe that we heard on B/C/S language that he said: "When he

3 asked for arms" armaments. Maybe our learned friend can clarify that with

4 the witness, because it is not here in this answer of this witness. It's

5 only material items, but he explicitly said he asked for arms, for

6 armaments, whatever it means. But maybe we could hear from the witness.

7 That was a version in B/C/S language. So that was the basis for my

8 objection. Thank you.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner can clarify that.

10 MR. WEINER: Sure.

11 Q. All right. Mr. Fitozovic, there's an issue which needs to be

12 clarified for the transcript. You talked about trying to get some

13 patches, and did you indicate while you were trying to get arms you

14 received some patches or while you were trying to gather some other

15 materiel items that you received some patches?

16 A. I said that I asked for some materiel and equipment, but all I got

17 were patches.

18 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, since you didn't have sufficient number of

19 arms or weapons, uniforms, materials, during that period of mid-April 1992

20 was this Territorial Defence unit operational?

21 A. No. The Territorial Defence unit was not operational in mid-April

22 1992.

23 Q. Okay. Since we're talking about mid-April, let's move to April

24 15th, 1992. Did you procure an amount of arms and ammunition on April

25 15th, 1992?

Page 8470

1 A. Yes. I procured 50 automatic rifles on the 15th of April, 1992,

2 and also some ammunition.

3 Q. Do you recall what type of ammunition and what type of other

4 weaponry you procured on that date?

5 A. On that day I procured 50 automatic rifles, about 7.000 pieces of

6 ammunition, rounds, for those rifles, two RPGs, hand-held launchers. I

7 also procured 18 mines for these hand-held launchers. I also procured

8 about 30 hand defensive grenades. I think that's all.

9 Q. Okay. These RPGs, or hand-held launchers, is that an anti-tank

10 gun?

11 A. Yes. This is an anti-tank gun.

12 Q. Is that like a bazooka that you place on your shoulder, or what

13 does it look like, to assist the ...

14 A. Yes, that's what it looks like, like a bazooka.

15 Q. And did you pick these items up yourself or did you send someone

16 to get them?

17 A. I sent Ibrahim Salkic and the late Fadil Sabanovic. He was

18 slaughtered later.

19 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Weiner, line 4, page 52, the English says:

20 "Also procured 18 mines for the hand-held launchers." I presume "mines"

21 is not necessarily what goes into a launcher. Perhaps you could clarify

22 to make sure that our translation of the B/C/S word is correct.

23 MR. WEINER: Okay. Sorry about that.

24 Q. You indicated that in addition to these anti-tank guns -- I'm

25 sorry, yes, the two anti-tank guns or launchers, you also got 18 mines for

Page 8471

1 these hand-held anti-tank guns. Is a mine a piece of ammunition for one

2 of these anti-tank guns? Is that the easiest way or simplest way of

3 describing it to a non-military person like myself?

4 A. Yes. I received ammunition, 18 rounds, for these two hand-held

5 launchers.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter correction. This was an

7 interpreter's mistake. I apologise.


9 Q. All right. Now, you indicated Fadil Sabanovic was slaughtered.

10 Was he one of those people that was held in Samac, sent to Bratunac [sic],

11 and eventually murdered there?

12 A. Yes. This is exactly the Fadil Sabanovic, the late Fadil

13 Sabanovic, who was in the camp in Samac, and he was killed later in

14 Batkovici. This is also the man who put the wounded members of the 4th

15 Detachment into his car and took them to the health centre.

16 Q. You're referring to when Danilo, Mersad, and Tota were shot after

17 that incident outside the Molla Cafe, he was the person who helped those

18 three men into his vehicle and brought them to the hospital? Is that what

19 you're referring to, that incident in late March or early April?

20 A. Yes, that's the incident I'm talking about. It happened in early

21 March. Fadil Sabanovic, who was later a member of the Territorial

22 Defence, was the person who took the wounded members of the 4th Detachment

23 to get medical help. I don't know what happened to them later.

24 Q. And just for the record, at Batkovici, he was decapitated, wasn't

25 he?

Page 8472

1 A. Yes, that's what I heard from the detainees who were in the

2 warehouse where Fadil was killed. This was a particular person who told

3 me this, and I can say who this man was, and he also told me what they did

4 with his severed head.

5 Q. Just for the record, could you tell us who observed the

6 decapitation? And you can add what they did with his severed head.

7 A. The decapitation of Fadil is that Sabanovic was observed by Nesib

8 Kapetanovic, and the head of the late Sabanovic was used to play football.

9 Q. Do you know what year that occurred?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Now, did Fadil Sabanovic and Ibrahim Salkic return to Bosanski

12 Samac with those weapons and that ammunition?

13 A. Yes. They returned to Bosanski Samac with the things that I had

14 sent them for. I would like to ask for a break, if that's possible.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Maybe we can take our break early, for 20

16 minutes, and resume at 10 to 6.00. We will rise.

17 --- Recess taken at 5.32 p.m.

18 --- On resuming at 5.53 p.m.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Before we proceed, we have a few corrections to make

20 on the exhibits.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honours. If I may clarify the

22 following conversation with the Prosecution. The recent exhibits that

23 were admitted as P65 and P66, may I correct, and they shall remain as part

24 of the Defence documents. So they will remain as D8/2 as an exhibit and

25 D8/2 ter as an exhibit, admitted today. And the previous P65 remains as

Page 8473

1 D24/2 and D24/2 ter, admitted as exhibits today. Thank you.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

3 Yes, Mr. Weiner, you may proceed.

4 MR. WEINER: I'd like to show the witness some documents very

5 shortly, if they could just get them ready at least now: 3/2, 4/2 --

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Are these D or what? Can we have the -- yes,

7 please.

8 MR. WEINER: I'm sorry. D2/4. 3/2, 4/2, 2/4, 3/4, and then 31/3

9 for ID.

10 Q. Could you please hold for a second 3/4 and 31/3 for ID.

11 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, on 3/4, 3/4 ter, 31/3 ID, and 31/3 ter

12 ID, they are the exact same document. If you look at the B/C/S, they're

13 the exact same, word for word, number for number. One of them says

14 "Municipal Military Headquarters" on the English side. That's 3/4. On

15 31/3, it says "Municipal Military Staff." They're the exact same.


17 MR. WEINER: Should we do anything or should we just leave them as

18 is, the two same documents? The English translation is just different on

19 the title.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm wondering whether we should give the Defence an

21 opportunity to look at these documents as well so that they also -- if we

22 are to agree that this is one document, they are also in agreement. Maybe

23 we can do that -- they can look at it today and we can do it tomorrow.

24 I'm not sure.

25 Mr. Lukic?

Page 8474

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in the break I talked

2 with my learned colleague and also with my colleague Lazarevic, and we

3 agreed that this was indeed the same document in the B/C/S version. I

4 introduced one document, and the other document was introduced by

5 Mr. Lazarevic or Pisarevic. The only difference in the English

6 translation is that the official translation was given with the document

7 D31/3. This was the translation that we got from CLSS, and the document

8 that was tendered by Mr. Pisarevic was translated by our service.

9 Therefore, I think that the official translation is "Municipal Military

10 Staff," and this is the translation that was given in the document D31/3.

11 Therefore, the Defence agrees to give the number -- whichever number the

12 registrar determines, but that would be the right translation.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. So the parties are agreed, so we can

14 have confirmation of the number from the Registry.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, D3/4 and D3/4 ter, the translation

16 which was admitted on the 17th of October, 2001 - the English translation

17 heads "Municipality Military Headquarters." The document 31/3 ID and

18 D31/3 ter ID, which was tendered as a document on the 25th of February,

19 the English translation heads "Municipal Military Staff." So there is a

20 difference on the English translation, so...

21 JUDGE MUMBA: So, which one do we -- Mr. Lukic, which one do you

22 accept as the correct one or the one which we should retain?

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I agreed with my colleague

24 Mr. Lazarevic that the correct translation is the one attached to document

25 31/3, and that is the "Municipal Military Staff."

Page 8475

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Agreed by the Prosecution?

2 MR. WEINER: That's fine.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: That's fine. All right. So can we have the

4 document which we are going to retain and then the date of the document

5 which you are going to not to accept -- not delete, actually; simply

6 record that this document will not be used because it's already been

7 numbered.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. So we move into evidence D31/3

9 and D31/3 ter, tendered on the 25th of February, 2002. They are admitted

10 today as exhibits. We shall not be using as exhibits, as court exhibits,

11 D3/4 and D3/4 ter, which were previously admitted on 17th of October,

12 2001. Thank you.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Thank you.

14 Yes, you can proceed, Mr. Weiner.


16 Q. When we left off, you testified that on April 15 you had procured

17 some weapons and ammunition, a quantity of weapons and ammunition. Was

18 this ever distributed to members of the Territorial Defence?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. When was it distributed?

21 A. On the 16th of April, 1992.

22 Q. Where was it distributed?

23 A. In the courtyard of the Territorial Defence building.

24 Q. So it was done publicly?

25 A. Yes. It was done in a public place.

Page 8476

1 Q. For everyone to see?

2 A. Yes. Everyone could see. This was done in a state institution,

3 the Territorial Defence of the Bosanski Samac municipality.

4 Q. Now, I'd like to show you some documents which have been

5 introduced here previously.

6 MR. WEINER: Could we show him 3/2, 3/2 ter ID. I'm sorry. D3/2

7 and D3/2 ter, both for ID.

8 Q. Have you had a chance to look at it, sir, and read the letter?

9 A. Yes, I have read it.

10 Q. Have you ever seen that letter before?

11 A. No, I haven't seen it before.

12 Q. Is the letter signed?

13 A. No. This document is not signed by the president.

14 Q. Has it been stamped?

15 A. No, there's no stamp.

16 Q. If Hasan Bicic, or any person interested in joining the TO or

17 becoming a member of the TO, was sent for technical materiel, who would

18 have sent the letter from the TO, or who would have sent the letter?

19 A. In any case, this would be done by Marko Bozanovic or myself.

20 Q. If prior to the establishment of the TO, in your old military

21 unit, if you were planning to send Hasan Bicic to retrieve some technical

22 equipment, who would have sent a letter?

23 A. I would have written it.

24 Q. Does the letter look unusual to you?

25 A. Yes, it does look unusual to me.

Page 8477

1 MR. WEINER: Could you show him 4/2 now.

2 THE REGISTRAR: May I clarify that this is D4/2 ID and D4/2 ter

3 ID.


5 MR. WEINER: Yes. Sorry.

6 Q. Sir, did you have a chance to look at that letter?

7 A. Yes, I have looked at it.

8 Q. Have you ever seen that document before?

9 A. No, I have never seen this document.

10 Q. Is there any SDA party stamp on it?

11 A. No, there isn't one.

12 Q. Any signature?

13 A. No, there's no signature.

14 Q. Any date?

15 A. No, there's no date either.

16 Q. The first line of the text says that the president of the SDA

17 says, in part, "shall summon the commander of the unit." Are you aware of

18 any SDA unit that existed, any sort of SDA military unit?

19 A. No. I don't know anything about any SDA unit.

20 Q. Now, at the top it says "Decision." Was there an SDA Crisis Staff

21 in April of 1992?

22 A. Yes, there was.

23 Q. Were you a member of the SDA party Crisis Staff in April of 1992?

24 A. Yes, I was a member of the SDA Crisis Staff.

25 Q. Were you ever involved or were you ever made aware of any decision

Page 8478

1 along these lines of this document, D4/2?

2 A. No. I did not know about this decision, nor did I have any

3 knowledge of this document.

4 Q. Was it the function of the SDA president to establish assembly

5 points for military personnel?

6 A. No. The president of the SDA was the president of the political

7 party. He had nothing to do with the military or with any units.

8 Q. Therefore, if the TO was established when this letter was issued,

9 could the president of the SDA tell members of the TO where to assemble in

10 case of an emergency?

11 A. No, he could not have said that. He did not have any jurisdiction

12 over the newly established Territorial Defence, apart from being a member

13 of the TO.

14 Q. Assuming this was prepared prior to the establishment of the TO,

15 could the president of the SDA give orders to members of your independent

16 military unit, which was established to protect the city of Bosanski

17 Samac?

18 A. No, he did not have the right to do so. It was a fully

19 independent unit which had nothing to do with the SDA party.

20 Q. And having been a member of the Crisis Staff, were you aware of

21 any SDA military unit that had a commander of some kind?

22 A. No, I wasn't aware of that.

23 Q. Does this document, 4/2, or D4/2 ter and D4/2, does this look

24 unusual to you?

25 A. It does look unusual to me.

Page 8479

1 Q. Let us continue.

2 MR. WEINER: Could the witness be shown D2/4 ter and D2/4.

3 Q. Now, sir, could you read this in English for us? It's on the

4 ELMO. The line across the top, the title.

5 A. "Municipal Crisis Staff."

6 Q. And the names that are listed, the third name listed, is that your

7 name?

8 A. Yes, that's my name.

9 Q. Now, you indicated you were a member of the SDA party Crisis

10 Staff; correct?

11 A. Yes, that is correct.

12 Q. Have you ever heard of the Municipality Crisis Staff?

13 A. I did not hear about a Municipality Crisis Staff.

14 Q. Have you ever seen this document before?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And when did you see this document?

17 A. I saw it on TV, in a special report by the Novi Sad TV. I saw a

18 list like this.

19 Q. And who else was on that TV Novi Sad programme?

20 A. That TV Novi Sad programme involved Tihic Sulejman, Izet

21 Izetbegovic, Omer Nalic, and Safet Hadzialijagic, nicknamed Coner. Simo

22 Zaric was there. There were some other locals too, I mean locals from

23 Bosanski Samac.

24 Q. Now, the locals from Bosanski Samac, other than Simo Zaric, were

25 they in prison at the time?

Page 8480

1 A. Yes. At that time they were in prison.

2 Q. Now, other than seeing this document on that television show, or

3 some TV show, had you ever seen this document before?

4 A. Yes, I did see it.

5 Q. And where?

6 A. Perhaps in the SDA party premises, in the premises of the SDA

7 party.

8 Q. Now, were you ever a member of any Municipal Crisis Staff?

9 A. No, I was not a member of the Municipal Crisis Staff.

10 Q. Had you heard of anyone being a member of the Municipal Crisis

11 Staff?

12 A. No, I never heard of anyone being a member of the Municipal Crisis

13 Staff.

14 Q. So this document -- now, I just want to get this clear. Prior to

15 seeing it on television, had you ever seen this document before?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. Where?

18 A. In the premises of the Party for Democratic Action, but I'm not

19 sure.

20 Q. Do you recall when you would have seen it?

21 A. I'm sure about seeing it on TV, but I cannot remember when it was

22 that I may have held it in my hands.

23 Q. Do you find it unusual to have your name placed on a unit that you

24 had never heard of, on a Crisis Staff that you had never heard of?

25 A. Yes, it is unusual that my name is here.

Page 8481

1 Q. Serving as deputy commander of the TO, or chief of staff of the

2 TO, a member of the Crisis Staff of the SDA party, as well as part of the

3 security unit of the SDA party, would you have been aware of the

4 Municipality Crisis Staff if it had been an SDA body?

5 A. There was a Crisis Staff within the SDA, but that was the SDA

6 Crisis Staff, not the Municipal Crisis Staff.

7 Q. And would you look at the last document, D31/3 and D31/3 ter.

8 Have you had a chance to look at it, sir?

9 A. Yes, I had a look at it.

10 Q. And the title of that document is "Municipality Military Staff"?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And is your name on that document?

13 A. Yes, my name is on this document.

14 Q. And is there a special position that it indicates that you hold on

15 that staff?

16 A. Yes. Here it is stated that I am the chairman of the Municipal

17 Military Staff, or the president.

18 Q. Have you ever seen this document before, sir?

19 A. I also saw it on TV.

20 Q. Other than television, have you ever seen this document before?

21 A. I don't remember. I think I didn't see it. It's been a long time

22 and I cannot respond to this question with any certainty, apart from

23 stating that I did see this document on television.

24 Q. Have you ever heard of the Municipal Military Staff?

25 A. No, I have never heard of Municipal Military Staff.

Page 8482

1 Q. Have you ever served as president or a member of this staff?

2 A. No, I have never been a president of the Municipal Military Staff.

3 Q. Has anyone ever notified you that you have been named president of

4 the Municipal Military Staff?

5 A. No, I have never been notified.

6 Q. Were you surprised to hear on television that you were somehow

7 president of this Municipal Military Staff?

8 A. Yes, I was surprised.

9 Q. And do you find this document unusual, having your name on as

10 president and you've never even heard of the organisation or unit?

11 A. Yes, I do find it unusual.

12 Q. Thank you. Having just seen a group of documents which either

13 you've never heard of the organisations on them or seem unusual, I was

14 going to ask you this: Are you familiar with what's known as the UDBA or

15 the state security administration, which was the secret police of Bosnia?

16 A. Yes, I am familiar, and I do know what UDBA and what SDB, the

17 State Security Service are.

18 Q. And was this secret police a KGB-type organisation, KGB meaning

19 similar to the so-called old Russian secret police of the old communist

20 days?

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

22 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honour, I have to object to this way of

23 examining. I mean, knowledge of this witness regarding KGB or CIA, I

24 mean, this is really not something that should be a matter in this case.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner. We haven't got any evidence as to

Page 8483

1 how the KGB was organised.

2 MR. WEINER: If you give me a chance to tie it in, I would bring

3 in information through this witness that Simo Zaric publicly worked for

4 the state security administration, or the secret police, was even an

5 administrator or a chief in Doboj. And further, he was familiar with the

6 tactics, that the old Communist KGB or secret police were known for

7 forgery, blackmail, fraudulent documents. Now, we have not only seen a

8 group of fraudulent documents come in, but where does he see the

9 documents? On a programme with Simo Zaric a person that belongs to an

10 organisation that specialises in forged or fraudulent documents. That's

11 how I would tie this in.

12 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, we can stipulate this second with

13 the Prosecutor that our client was a member of -- actually, he was an

14 employee of the Security Service, and this is, among others, fact that was

15 never in dispute between us and the Prosecution. But the other line of

16 examination, I really don't see that this is appropriate about the

17 possibility that what were the things that in some moment in the past some

18 secret service did -- I really don't see what line of examination could it

19 be.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe we'll see how far the Prosecution will take it

21 and --

22 MR. LAZAREVIC: And maybe I didn't use the correct words. The

23 State Security Service. This was not any secret police or nothing like

24 that.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: You mean the organisation which Mr. Simo Zaric

Page 8484

1 operated in was called the State Security Service?

2 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, State Security Service, and he was a member

3 of this service.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

5 MR. WEINER: If you give me a chance, I'll try to qualify and

6 bring out as much information as I can and his knowledge and background on

7 this area.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. You can go ahead.


10 Q. First, are you familiar with the old State Security Service in the

11 former Yugoslavia?

12 A. Yes, I'm familiar with it.

13 Q. Was it a local or a national police organisation?

14 A. It was a national organisation, on the level of the former

15 Yugoslav state. There were also these services on the level of every

16 former republic and regions, and it also had its branches on the local

17 level.

18 Q. And could you tell us: How were you familiar with this old state

19 security administration, or State Security Service?

20 A. I knew of it. I knew that this State Security Service existed.

21 The name or existence of this service was not a secret, but what this

22 service did, that was a secret.

23 Q. The people who belonged in this service, were those publicly known

24 or were those secret too?

25 A. The people who did this job professionally, that was not a

Page 8485

1 secret. They did their work publicly.

2 Q. Do you know if any of the defendants were members of the state

3 security police or state security administration?

4 A. Yes. Simo Zaric was. He worked for the State Security Service.

5 But his job was public. That was his regular job.

6 Q. And are you familiar with the tactics that the State Security

7 Service would use, whether legal or illegal?

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

9 MR. LAZAREVIC: First of all, the witness didn't answer the

10 question put to him by Mr. Weiner where his knowledge comes from. How

11 does he know that? Before we continue with this, maybe this is the first

12 thing that we should establish.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, especially when the witness answered that the

14 existence of the service was not a secret but that what this service did,

15 that was a secret. And the witness was not a member.

16 MR. WEINER: I'll question him some more.

17 Q. What is the basis of your knowledge about the State Security

18 Service or the state security police? How do you know about it?

19 A. The State Security Service was a public institution, and people

20 who worked for it were not doing this secretly; they were doing it

21 publicly. However, this service also had its spies, who weren't

22 professionally employed in the service, and they were doing their jobs in

23 secret.

24 Q. Had you ever dealt with anyone who worked for the State Security

25 Service?

Page 8486

1 A. Yes. I had the opportunity to come across such people.

2 Q. And in your position in the military or working at the electrical

3 power plant as a chief, or even in your private life, did you ever assist

4 or work with them in any manner?

5 A. No, I never cooperated with the SDB, the State Security Service.

6 Q. Did you ever have to deal with them as part of your tenure in the

7 military?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Now, you said you came across such people. Having the

10 opportunity, as you said, to come across such people, were you able to

11 learn something about the work or the State Security Service itself?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What were you able to learn about the State Security Service,

14 having dealt with some of the people who worked there?

15 A. First of all, I will answer this question in two ways. First,

16 during my training at the reserve officers' school, we covered these

17 topics as well. We also covered these services. So as a member of the

18 JNA, I found out about what this service was doing, what kinds of methods

19 they were using, the way in which they were gathering documents, the way

20 in which they were gathering information.

21 Q. You said you would answer the question in two ways, and you

22 mentioned about your training, your training in the military that you

23 learnt about them. Is there another way?

24 A. Yes. The other way through which I found out about the methods of

25 the State Security Service is as follows: I found out about these things

Page 8487

1 from people that worked for this service secretly. They told me about the

2 ways this service contacted both criminals, what kinds of services they

3 would -- or kinds of favours they would do for these criminals. I also

4 found out that this service almost always falsifies certain things in its

5 work. It forges documents, for example, from an ID card, a passport, or

6 other kinds of personal identification, or other kinds of documents as

7 well.

8 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Weiner, forgive me if you are going to do

9 this, but just in case, I presume that we are going to find out why these

10 people, whoever they were who were working secretly for this special

11 Security Service, or State Security Service, why did they discuss this

12 with the witness? I mean, how does he know? Why did they come?


14 Q. The Judge beat me to the next question.

15 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I do apologise.

16 MR. WEINER: No problem.

17 Q. That's the next question. You found out from some of these people

18 who were working on more of a clandestine or apparently undercover role or

19 a secret role. Why did they confide in you? Why did they talk to you

20 about this?

21 A. Well, when the war started, that is to say, when the aggression

22 happened, many illusions were destroyed, so that those that were close to

23 these services, they kind of opened up, and then they mentioned some

24 people that worked for this service and who worked there. So that's how I

25 found out about it. I found out about it during the war.

Page 8488

1 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.


3 Q. Now, I was just going to ask you one question, and counsel has

4 already conceded, but was Simo Zaric an employee of this service?

5 A. Yes, he worked for this service.

6 Q. And in addition to the forgery of documents and manufacturing

7 fraudulent documents, were there any other tactics that you were told

8 about in relation to this organisation?

9 A. Well, I listed the methods that I'm familiar with.

10 Q. Okay. Let's move on. We've talked about the 15th of April.

11 Let's talk about the 16th. Was there a meeting held on the evening of

12 April 16th, 1992?

13 A. Yes. On April 16th - that was a Thursday - a meeting was held in

14 the offices of the local commune.

15 Q. Who was there?

16 A. The meeting was attended by Marko Bozanovic. He was the chief of

17 staff of the TO. I was there as the chief of staff.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter correction. Marko Bozanovic was the

19 commander.

20 A. Simo Zaric was also there. He represented the 4th Detachment.

21 Safet Hadzialijagic, nicknamed Pop was also there. He was the president

22 of the Commission -- I can't remember its exact name. The Commission for

23 the security of the town. The representatives of other political parties

24 were also there.

25 Q. For the record, can we clarify something? You said Safet

Page 8489

1 Hadzialijagic. Were there two Safet Hadzialijagics in Bosanski Samac?

2 A. Yes, there were two Safet Hadzialijagics. The only difference

3 between them was their nicknames.

4 Q. One was named Pop and the other was named Coner?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And for the record, Coner was the plumber who worked for the

7 waterworks; is that correct?

8 A. Yes. He worked in the city water supply system.

9 Q. And was Coner at this meeting, if you recall?

10 A. I don't think he was there.

11 Q. So it was Pop which was the Safet Hadzialijagic that was there?

12 A. Yes, he was there. I think he was the one that presided over the

13 meeting.

14 Q. Okay. Tell us, what happened at this meeting?

15 A. I have to make a correction. Other than the ones that I already

16 mentioned, Dragan Lukac, the chief of police, was also there.

17 Q. Okay. No problem. Let's continue. Tell us, what happened at

18 this meeting?

19 A. On this meeting we discussed the general situation in the town.

20 We agreed that the situation in the town was very difficult. We tried to

21 find a way how we could alleviate the situation in the town. That, of

22 course, deteriorated because of the creation of the Territorial Defence on

23 the orders of the presidency and the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

24 Q. Did you speak on behalf of the Territorial Defence?

25 A. Yes. This meeting was supposed to start at 6.00 p.m., but it

Page 8490

1 started about 30 minutes later than that, since we had to wait for Simo

2 Zaric to show up.

3 Q. Okay. Now, what did you say about the Territorial Defence?

4 A. I informed the attendees that the Territorial Defence had been

5 created, the Territorial Defence of Bosanski Samac, and I informed them

6 about the developments, the progress regarding the creation of this

7 Territorial Defence. When I say "progress," I was referring to the

8 interest that the citizens were showing. I said that the turnout was

9 large, that the citizens had accepted this way of organising all of those

10 that lived in the city and the municipality of Bosanski Samac.

11 On this meeting, the commander of the Territorial Defence also

12 spoke, Mr. Marko Bozanovic, and he also stated that the job was being done

13 quite well and that it was almost completed and that the organisation of

14 the Territorial Defence was nearly done.

15 Q. Did you invite any persons or groups to join the Territorial

16 Defence at that meeting? Did you do that?

17 A. Yes. In this meeting I talked about the necessity to join the 4th

18 Detachment to the Territorial Defence, including the people that were in

19 it and the materiel and equipment that they had.

20 Q. When you invited, if you want to call it invitation, talked about

21 joining the -- talked about having the 4th Detachment joined with the

22 Territorial Defence, when you offered that invitation, if you want to call

23 it, did anyone respond on behalf of the Territorial Defence? I'm sorry.

24 Did anyone respond on behalf of the 4th Detachment?

25 A. Yes. The defendant Simo Zaric took the floor, and he said that

Page 8491

1 the Territorial Defence was irregular, illegal, and that he did not accept

2 the decision of the presidency and the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

3 Q. Did you respond to that?

4 A. Yes. I said to Mr. Zaric that even some Serbs had tried to join

5 the Territorial Defence and that they had accepted the Territorial Defence

6 as a reality on the level of the town of Bosanski Samac.

7 Q. Was there any more discussion after that between you and Simo

8 Zaric?

9 A. Yes. There were more discussions and talks about this.

10 Q. Was there any discussions concerning pending attacks on the town

11 of Bosanski Samac?

12 A. I said at the very beginning that we talked about this situation

13 in the town. We talked about what the situation was up until that evening

14 and we agreed that it was very complex, difficult. And I said that we

15 were trying to find a way to alleviate this difficult situation in the

16 town, how to overcome it. But the discussions between Mr. Simo Zaric and

17 myself might have actually created an even more inflammatory situation.

18 When the meeting was coming to its end, Simo Zaric said that the 4th

19 Detachment would in no way attack Bosanski Samac or participate in the

20 occupation of Bosanski Samac.

21 After that, the meeting somehow ended and the picture was somewhat

22 clearer. The tensions were a little bit lower. So the meeting ended

23 around 10.00 p.m.

24 Q. Now, even though Simo Zaric said that the 4th Detachment would not

25 participate in any attack on Bosanski Samac, within 24 hours wasn't the

Page 8492

1 4th Detachment involved with the JNA and paramilitaries in the takeover of

2 Bosanski Samac?

3 A. I have to make a correction. It was not in the next 24 hours.

4 While we were in this meeting, the members of the 4th Detachment already

5 started preparations for the takeover of the town of Bosanski Samac from

6 the inside. They were creating conditions in which they would attack the

7 town from the outside.

8 Q. No. What I'm saying is even though Simo Zaric said the 4th

9 Detachment would not participate in an attack, in less than 24 hours

10 didn't that happen, the 4th Detachment became involved with the JNA and

11 paramilitaries in that attack?

12 A. Yes. Within the next 24 hours, we can say that the 4th

13 Detachment, the JNA, the militaries, Arkan's troops and the Grey Wolves

14 occupied Bosanski Samac.

15 Q. Now, on that day, on April 16th, 1992, did the TO have any

16 intention of taking over Bosanski Samac?

17 A. We never even thought about that, about the takeover of Bosanski

18 Samac. The power was such as it was. It was distributed according to the

19 election results.

20 Q. Was any plan ever drawn by you or any member of the TO for an

21 attack or a takeover of Bosanski Samac on or about April 16th, 1992, or

22 before that date?

23 A. No. We did not make any such plan. I don't know why we were

24 supposed to make a plan about that. Bosanski Samac was free, both for

25 Muslims and Croats, and Serbs.

Page 8493

1 Q. Were you aware on April 16th, 1992 of any army or group that

2 wanted to take -- that wanted to attack Bosanski Samac, other than the 4th

3 Detachment and those groups that later did so? Were you aware of any

4 group that was going to attack Bosanski Samac?

5 A. Yes. I knew there was a group that would do that job from the

6 outside.

7 Q. And who was that?

8 A. The White Wolves.

9 THE INTERPRETER: The Grey Wolves. Interpreter correction. The

10 Grey Wolves.


12 Q. No, but other than those Grey Wolves and the 4th Detachment and

13 the JNA, were there any other groups that were planning to attack Bosanski

14 Samac?

15 A. No, there were no other groups that would attack Bosanski Samac.

16 Q. In fact, the TO, did you have weapons for every member of the TO?

17 A. No, we did not have enough weapons even for 5 per cent of the

18 people. When we entered the TO building, it was empty. That's what I

19 said.

20 Q. Okay.

21 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, should we break here? It's 7.00.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, yes, it's 1900 hours. We'll break and continue

23 tomorrow at 1415 hours. I just wanted to find out how much more time the

24 Prosecution requires to complete.

25 MR. WEINER: Less than an hour. I hope 45 minutes or less.

Page 8494

1 JUDGE MUMBA: So we'll adjourn now.

2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,

3 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 29th day of

4 May 2002, at 2.15 p.m.