Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8495

1 Wednesday, 29 May 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Case number

8 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Simo Zaric, Miroslav Tadic, and Blagoje

9 Simic.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We are proceeding under Rule 15 bis as we did

11 yesterday, and this is the third day.

12 Before we proceed, I want to make a correction on the record

13 regarding exhibits. Since the separation order was announced yesterday,

14 I'm afraid the Prosecution have to go back on the exhibits which were

15 admitted yesterday, such that each time the Prosecution would like to use

16 exhibits that were identified for the accused Milan Simic, they have to

17 produce copies, fresh copies, which they can then use and have them

18 admitted in evidence so that they move on the new number -- on the case

19 which is continuing against the three accused. So we'll have to backtrack

20 and do that, and when the Prosecution is ready, then we can correct the

21 record. And from now on, those exhibits -- each time the Prosecution wish

22 to use them, they should produce fresh copies so that there's no mix-up in

23 numbering the exhibits.

24 Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

25 MR. PANTELIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours.

Page 8496

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Good afternoon.

2 MR. PANTELIC: If you would be so kind also to give certain

3 guidelines or instruction to the Defence with regard to the same issue,

4 because you are well aware that number of documents tendered by our friend

5 Mr. Zecevic on behalf of Mr. Milan Simic have certain influence and impact

6 on our case.


8 MR. PANTELIC: So probably we should --

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Do the same, yes.

10 MR. PANTELIC: Do the same.


12 MR. PANTELIC: Maybe we could get all his exhibits, see what is

13 relevant to --

14 JUDGE MUMBA: To your cases.

15 MR. PANTELIC: To our cases and then to --


17 MR. PANTELIC: And then to have another number.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So that the two records are not confused, yes,

19 when writing judgement or decisions on each one, you only use those

20 exhibits produced for that particular record. Yes.

21 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you. Thank you.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: We have to backtrack and make sure everybody checks

23 which exhibits they need, get fresh copies and then we can go ahead on the

24 numbering list so that we correct the position of the documents, the

25 exhibits, rather. All right?

Page 8497

1 MR. PANTELIC: I understand. Thank you very much, Your Honour.

2 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, one other matter.


4 MR. WEINER: This morning, or actually, late morning, I received a

5 group of documents from counsel for Mr. Blagoje Simic, and we also just

6 received some documents from counsel for Mr. Simo Zaric. And I've spoken

7 to both counsel and I would like authorisation from this Court to meet,

8 probably at the break today or one of the breaks today, as well as, if

9 necessary, tomorrow, with a translator to go over these documents to --

10 they're all in B/C/S. I don't read B/C/S, and find out what they mean and

11 get his comments on them sometime before he's cross-examined on them, so

12 at least, if necessary, I can re-direct on them so I know what they are.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: I see. So I'm sure the -- yes. So I'm sure the

14 Defence will have no objection to --

15 MR. PANTELIC: Not at all.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. There will be no objection from the Defence,

17 so you can discuss those documents with the witness.

18 MR. WEINER: Thank you.


20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 Examined by Mr. Weiner: [Continued]

22 Q. Good afternoon. And good afternoon, Mr. Fitozovic.

23 A. Good afternoon.

24 Q. Now, yesterday we brought you right up to the eve of the war in

25 Bosanski Samac, and just before we go into that, I'd like to talk to you

Page 8498

1 about one matter, just briefly, and show you two documents relating. And

2 this matter occurred in April of 1992. Now, do you recall a situation in

3 April of 1992 where members of the 4th Detachment, or actually, I assume

4 the leadership of the 4th Detachment took over a building in Bosanski

5 Samac to use as a headquarters, a factory known as the Sit factory,

6 textile factory?

7 A. Yes, I'm familiar with that fact. The leadership of the 4th

8 Detachment took over the premises of the Sit factory in Bosanski Samac in

9 Edvard Kardelja Street, in close proximity of the Cafe AS.

10 Q. And when you say "Cafe AS," you're referring to the defendant

11 Miroslav Tadic's cafe?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And did they use a letter notifying the persons in charge of the

14 Sit factory that it was being taken over?

15 A. Yes. They notified the leadership of the Sit factory.

16 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I'd like to present to the witness a

17 document with the ERN number 02198834.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. What is the name of the document, or the

19 title?

20 MR. WEINER: I think it would be easiest -- it's all in B/C/S.

21 I've just received it - if he can translate it.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: He can read it. All right.


24 Q. Sir, do you have that letter?

25 A. Yes, I do.

Page 8499

1 Q. Since many of us in the courtroom can't read

2 Bosnian-Serb-Croatian, could you please read it right from the

3 beginning --

4 THE INTERPRETER: Could the document please be put on the ELMO for

5 the interpreters that haven't seen it.

6 MR. WEINER: Sure.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think we can have it on the ELMO. I do hope

8 that the witness has a clearer copy.

9 MR. WEINER: I was just going to give them, but they have one.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, I don't. I don't

11 have a clearer copy. I can't distinguish all the words.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, because the Bench too has copies which are very

13 faint. Even if we don't read Serbo-Croat, we can't even make out the

14 alphabet.


16 Q. Well, could you read as much as you can, please, from the letter,

17 as much as you can from that copy that you have there.

18 A. Yes, I will try to do my best. "Socialist Republic of

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina, municipality of Bosanski Samac, municipal Secretariat

20 for National Defence, number 01300-30/92, Bosanski Samac, the 5th of

21 April, 1992, DP Siteks [Realtime transcript read in error "DB"], Bosanski

22 Samac, to the attention of the director regarding notification about the

23 temporary use of the premises.

24 "We are hereby notifying you that the offices of your

25 administrative building have been determined to become the temporary

Page 8500

1 location of the 4th Samac Detachment of the JNA."

2 Q. Now, sir, were you aware that after the receipt of this letter,

3 people from the Sit company went to court and received an order removing

4 the 4th Detachment for an illegal possession of the building?

5 MR. PANTELIC: Objection, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

7 MR. PANTELIC: My learned friend should use the other expression

8 than "illegal." This witness cannot give his opinion, because he's not a

9 legal expert, whether the possession of certain premises or illegal or

10 legal, et cetera. So just slightly rephrasing, please. Thank you.

11 MR. WEINER: That's fine. No problem, Your Honour. I withdraw

12 the question.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.


15 Q. Were you aware that the directors or the persons in control of the

16 Sit company went to court and obtained an order removing the 4th

17 Detachment from their business premises?

18 A. Yes, I am aware of the document that the management of the public

19 company Siteks in Bosanski Samac used to submit a request to the Court in

20 Bosanski Samac, and thereby requested that the 4th Detachment be removed

21 from the premises DP Siteks in Bosanski Samac.

22 MR. WEINER: Could the witness now be shown document 02198835, and

23 it's a much clearer copy than the other.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number for identification for this

25 one?

Page 8501

1 MR. WEINER: Sorry. I was going to get the two together.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, I see. You can continue, then.

3 MR. WEINER: To keep things moving quickly.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Things will move much faster, yes.

5 MR. PANTELIC: And if I may, during this short break, Your Honour,

6 it's a correction to the transcript, page 6, line 18, said "premises DB

7 Siteks". In fact it's DP, Delta Papa, which means public company in

8 Serbian language. That's what the witness said. So we have to use this

9 abbreviation, then it should be DP, because that's what he said, although

10 my friend can clarify that, of course.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner. If you can just get the correct

12 name.


14 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, just to clarify the record, did you say DP,

15 referring to public company, in relation to the Sit company, D as in

16 Delta, P as in Papa?

17 A. Yes, DP Siteks means public company Siteks. So this was a public

18 company, not a private company.

19 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, could you look at this new document that

20 you were just given. It's much clearer and the wording is much darker,

21 more legible to read.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And could you read this into the record, the information in this

24 document, starting at the beginning, where it says something along the

25 lines of Visi sued u Doboj.

Page 8502

1 A. Yes. "Higher court in Doboj, number ST 24/91, Doboj, 8th of

2 April, 1992. To the receiver of DP, public company Siteks, in bankruptcy,

3 regarding notification on the removal of a third person from the premises

4 of the DP Siteks, Bosanski Samac, and the securing of the property.

5 "The Chamber of this Court has been informed that on the premises

6 of the DP Siteks in Bosanski Samac, a third party has moved in without the

7 approval of this Court. It is necessary to undertake measures for all

8 other parties to move out of the premises of DP Siteks Bosanski Samac, and

9 the property of the company should be secured. This Court will be

10 determining on any disposal of this property. We are warning you that you

11 should handle in such a way such as to protect the creditors on the -- you

12 have to submit a report to this Tribunal on any undertaken measures. The

13 president of the bankruptcy court, Dzevad Hrnic."

14 Q. Thank you, sir.

15 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I'd like to introduce -- or offer both

16 of these documents. At this point it would just be for identification

17 until I obtain the translations.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Get the English, yes.

19 MR. WEINER: We can give them separate numbers, A and B, if

20 necessary.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the numbers?

22 MR. WEINER: Separate numbers would probably be easier.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: I think separate numbers would be easier, yes.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. Document 02198835 will be

25 treated as P66 ter ID, and document 02198834 will be treated as P65 ter

Page 8503

1 ID. Thank you.



4 Q. Okay, sir. Let's continue. You've left the meeting about 10.00

5 at night. Sometime later that evening, or actually, sometime in the early

6 morning hours of April 17th, does shooting start? About 2.00 a.m., does

7 something happen?

8 A. Yes. The meeting ended around 10.00 p.m. after the meeting, I

9 went with Mr. Dragan Lukac to a nearby restaurant and we had a drink

10 there.

11 Q. And about 2.00 in the morning, does something happen? Let's move

12 on about four hours later. Does something happen around 2.00 in the

13 morning?

14 A. Yes. The attack started against Bosanski Samac.

15 Q. And when you say "the attack started," tell the Court what had

16 happened, what you saw about that time, or what you heard.

17 A. At 2.00 sharp, I went to the police station in Bosanski Samac.

18 The duty officer, Luka Gregurevic was there. From the direction of the

19 cemetery, from the east entrance into the town of Bosanski Samac, you

20 could hear heavy shooting, and I knew immediately that this was an attack

21 against Bosanski Samac. Therefore, I asked the duty police officer to use

22 his phone to call the Territorial Defence unit that was stationed in

23 Prud. I wanted them to join us so that we could defend and protect the

24 town from the enemy. The police officer, Luka Gregurevic, wanted to do

25 this for me, but at that very moment all the phone lines went dead. The

Page 8504

1 person on duty in the communications centre in the police of Bosanski

2 Samac, Ruzmir Dervic - he was also a member of the 4th Detachment - was

3 not in the building at that moment, and he was observing the direction of

4 the cemetery, the direction from which the shooting could be heard.

5 This job that the communications officer on duty was doing was

6 such that the duty officer was not allowed to leave his desk, not even for

7 a second. However, he went out and he was observing what was going on in

8 the direction from which the shooting was coming.

9 I got into a car and drove towards the direction of the attack. I

10 came to the crossing of the main road Samac-Sarajevo and the regional road

11 Samac-Orasje, and I saw soldiers that had white shoulder epaulettes on the

12 territory of the Pik company in Bosanski Samac, and I saw some soldiers

13 that were going in the direction of the bridge on the River Sava, towards

14 Croatia.

15 Q. Where did you go?

16 A. Since I was not armed, I did not have any weapons with me. I went

17 back to the police station, where I found Luka, the duty police officer, I

18 mean Luka Gregurevic. He was helpless. All the communications were down:

19 Radio, telephone. Then I went to the local commune of Prud in order to

20 call on them personally to come to Bosanski Samac and to take certain

21 positions in order to defend the town against both the enemy attacking it

22 from the outside and the enemy that was already within.

23 Q. Now, while you were in Prud, could you hear anything on the other

24 side of the bridge, any sounds coming from Bosanski Samac?

25 A. Yes. In Prud I heard gunfire, again in the eastern part of the

Page 8505

1 town, the part of the town that is called Donja Mahala. But the moment

2 when, at about 2.30 in the morning, I went to Prud, the shooting started

3 from the embankment towards the bridge on the Bosna River, and that was

4 the bridge that I used to go to Prud. The gunfire intensified and it got

5 closer and closer to the town centre. I tried to go back to the town, but

6 at that time it was impossible because the bridge on the Bosna River was

7 already under the enemy fire. However, over my radio, I heard the enemy

8 communications. I heard the enemy coordinating the operation to take the

9 town of Bosanski Samac.

10 Q. Let's stop there for a second. You got to Prud at about 2.30;

11 correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. When you said you heard something over the radio, was that the

14 radio transmission you heard about 4.00 a.m., involving one of the

15 defendants here?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. All right. Just take it one step at a time. Where were you at

18 approximately 4.00 a.m. on April 17th? Were you still in Prud at that

19 time?

20 A. Yes. On the 17th of April, at 4.00 a.m., I was still in Prud.

21 Q. Now, were you with anyone when you heard this radio transmission?

22 A. Yes. I was in the local commune hall in Prud. Some members of

23 the Territorial Defence were also there, I mean those from Prud.

24 Q. And could you tell us what you heard, what radio transmissions you

25 heard at about 4.00 a.m. in the morning of April 17th?

Page 8506

1 A. Since we did have radio communications and the radio devices were

2 able to get the enemy frequencies too, the frequencies used by the enemy,

3 I was able to hear how the operation to take the town of Bosanski Samac

4 was going on. On that occasion I heard the voice of the accused Simo

5 Zaric, who had the code-name to be used over the radio, I believe it was

6 More, and on the other side there was the voice of Amir Dervic, whose

7 code-name was Galeb. Amir Dervic was also a member of the 4th Detachment,

8 and he was the brother of Ruzmir Dervic I mentioned a little while ago,

9 who was at the communications centre in Bosanski Samac.

10 Q. Just one question, sir. In your statement to the OTP, on page 9

11 in the English version, you indicated that Simo Zaric's code-name was

12 Galeb and the other gentleman's name was More. Which do you recall at

13 this time?

14 A. Yes, I do remember Galeb and More. The code-name of the accused

15 was Galeb and the other person was More. And I heard the words "More

16 calling Galeb." The words were quite panicked. And then Galeb responded,

17 asking him what he wanted to say, and he spoke in a panicked voice: "I

18 see a large column of vehicles with lights on, on the Prud side, on the

19 Slavonia side." And then he concluded the report over the radio, and then

20 the accused Zaric warned him not to speak in such a panicked voice over

21 the radio but to be calm and to continue the communications in that

22 manner, I mean communications via the radio.

23 Q. Okay. Let's once again step back. You heard Simo Zaric and Amir

24 Dervic speaking over the radio. How long -- you indicated you had known

25 Simo Zaric for approximately 25 years?

Page 8507

1 A. Yes, I have known him.

2 Q. And during those 25 years, had you talked to him on several

3 occasions?

4 A. Yes. Sometime when we would meet in company where both Simo Zaric

5 and myself would happen to be - I am younger than Simo Zaric, that's true,

6 but sometimes we would talk to each other.

7 Q. And having known him for so many years, do you recognise his

8 voice? Are you able to recognise his voice?

9 A. Yes, I am able to recognise his voice, and I think that he is able

10 to recognise my voice.

11 Q. Does he have a distinctive voice, sir?

12 A. Yes, he does have a distinctive voice, but I don't know how to

13 describe it.

14 Q. Amir Dervic, who is he, and is he from Bosanski Samac?

15 A. Yes, he's from Bosanski Samac.

16 Q. And did you know him prior to April 17th?

17 A. Yes, I did know him for many years.

18 Q. And were you able to recognise his voice?

19 A. Yes, sure.

20 Q. Now, who said, "I saw a column of lights from Prud," or "coming

21 from Prud"?

22 A. Amir Dervic did.

23 Q. And who responded about, "Don't be in a panic. Speak normally,"

24 something along those lines?

25 A. Simo Zaric did.

Page 8508

1 Q. And at that time, being in Prud, were you able to determine if

2 there was a column, a column of vehicles, or a lot of vehicles with lights

3 on driving around?

4 A. Since I was in Prud, there were no movements of trucks there.

5 There may have been some passenger vehicles going around, but there were

6 no trucks. He may have seen the lights on the Croatian side.

7 Q. Okay. Now, from this conversation that you were listening to,

8 were you able to determine where Amir Dervic was located?

9 A. Yes, I was able to conclude that he was approximately or more or

10 less in a building that is quite close to the place where the River Bosna

11 joins the River Sava, so that he had a view of both the left bank and the

12 right bank of the River Bosna, and of the left bank of the River Sava.

13 That is the Croatian side.

14 Q. And the last question: Are you sure that the voice that you had

15 heard speaking to Amir Dervic, that voice -- the person who was trying to

16 obtain information as to what was going on, or that person who information

17 was being reported to, was Simo Zaric?

18 A. Yes, I'm sure that it was Simo Zaric.

19 Q. Now, did you leave Prud shortly thereafter?

20 A. At around 5.00, I think, I attempted to do so. At that time I

21 wasn't able to go through. And then at around 9.00 I was finally able to

22 drive at a high rate of speed in my car across the bridge to Bosanski

23 Samac.

24 Q. And once you got back to Bosanski Samac, what did you do? Just

25 briefly, what did you do?

Page 8509

1 A. When I got back to Bosanski Samac, I was first notified in the

2 first half an hour of the occupation of Bosanski Samac that Slavko Dzebic

3 was shot in the mouth by a member of the Grey Wolves, so that is what I

4 was told. Then I obtained information about the situation where our lads

5 were, and when I obtained this information, I took certain measures.

6 Q. Now, did you speak -- did you happen to speak with Sulejman Tihic

7 sometime that morning or sometime in the early afternoon of April 17th?

8 If you recall.

9 A. The telephone lines became operational once again at around 5.00

10 a.m. I don't know whether I was able to speak to Sulejman Tihic, because

11 at that time he was not important.

12 Q. Did you eventually speak with Sulejman Tihic?

13 A. Yes. I spoke to him later on. Ibrahim Salkic helped me to get

14 Sulejman Tihic on the telephone.

15 Q. And do you recall the content of that conversation that you had

16 with Sulejman Tihic?

17 A. Yes. The only thing that I do remember is the sentence that I

18 never once believed, that some talks were under way and that all the

19 activities would cease. However, this did not happen.

20 Q. Now, did you eventually find a place to hide out in Bosanski

21 Samac?

22 A. Yes. Since the concentration of the Serb troops was abnormally

23 high - there were Arkan's troops, the 4th Detachment, which, as I have

24 already said, was on the inside - we were unable to offer appropriate

25 resistance, and until 1530, many of the residents and some of the TO

Page 8510

1 members were able to pull out across the bridge on the River Bosna. I

2 remained in the town and sought shelter.

3 Q. Where did you find a place to stay, or where did you find shelter,

4 as you would call it?

5 A. I first found shelter in a building in the immediate vicinity of

6 the post office. It was at around 1545. Two other members of the TO were

7 with me. One of them was Resad Coralic and the other one was Suad

8 Hodzic. As I ran towards the shelter, two tanks were coming in from the

9 direction of Crkvina. Since at 1530 all our resistance ceased, the second

10 tank, or rather, behind the tanks, there were members of the 4th

11 Detachment. On one of the tanks an enemy soldier used a loud hailer,

12 calling on the TO members to surrender. The two men I just mentioned were

13 thinking about surrendering, whether to surrender immediately. I told

14 them to wait a while, that I would get out and check what the situation

15 was like.

16 I got out and headed towards the Bosna River again. However, I

17 was unable to reach the embankment on the River Bosna because a tank was

18 ahead of me, in front of me, so I found temporary shelter, for just one

19 night, in the law firm. I think it was owned either by Ilija Drljacic or

20 Fadil Topcagic. But at any rate, it was in the building of the municipal

21 library. So this law firm was situated there. Its offices were there.

22 I of course broke through the door and I got into the attic of

23 that building.

24 Q. And how long did you stay -- once you got into the attic of the

25 building, how long did you stay in the attic?

Page 8511

1 A. I stayed in the attic for the next 24 hours.

2 Q. And did you go to another building after that?

3 A. Yes. I had to leave this building. I just wanted to note one

4 thing. During my stay in the building, in the 24 hours that I spent

5 there, the enemy soldiers that had come from the outside, who had face

6 paint, camouflage paint on their faces, they entered the law firm. They

7 didn't have to break down the door because I had already done that. And

8 they took the telephone, the fax machine, and the copy machine, everything

9 that was of any value. But the reason why I picked that -- why I left

10 that attic was because a shell had fallen very close to that building, in

11 fact on the building itself, on the roof, and when it did so, the window

12 panes on the Usce Bosne company, which is located in the so-called old

13 post office, were shattered, and in the early evening of the 18th I got

14 into the Usce Bosne building and then went into the attic of a private

15 home, from the attic of the Usce Bosne building, and that is where I

16 stayed until the 28th of April, and that is when I finally crossed the

17 River Sava by swimming.

18 MR. WEINER: May the witness be shown Exhibit P14, photograph 38.

19 P14A. I'm sorry.

20 Q. Sir, do you recognise that building depicted in P -- photograph 38

21 of Exhibit P14A?

22 A. Yes, I do recognise the building depicted here.

23 Q. And how do you recognise it? What was that building?

24 A. This was the building that was known as the old post office, and

25 in a part of this building, here on the ground floor, where I'm showing,

Page 8512

1 the Usce Bosne company had its offices. And I entered through one of

2 these two windows, because the window panes were shattered due to an

3 explosion of a shell that impacted here, somewhere here. This is the

4 building where I spent the first 24 hours is located, more or less. So

5 the next morning, on the 18th, I got into this building through one of

6 these two windows. I walked down the corridor and climbed up the stairs

7 on the upper floor and then went to the attic and was able to move to the

8 attic of this apartment here. This whole apartment, this huge apartment,

9 belonged to a family called Dzakic. And here on the ground floor was a

10 cafe that was called Devetka.

11 MR. WEINER: Now, Your Honour, for the record, the building in the

12 foreground, the two-storey building with the brown roof, it looks like an

13 apartment complex, that is the building that he indicated that he stayed

14 in, and to the right of that building, diagonally to the right, is a --

15 looks like a large tree, and to the right of that tree is a small house,

16 and that small house is the building that he stayed in for 24 hours. Just

17 for the record.


19 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

20 Q. Now, I just want to go through this briefly. We could spend a

21 whole day on those eight to ten days until you left Bosanski Samac, and I

22 just want to very briefly talk about just a few things that you saw and

23 move on to your escape.

24 During those week to ten days that you were staying in the attic,

25 first, did you see any troops moving in the city?

Page 8513

1 A. Yes. In light of the place where I spent the ten or twelve days,

2 I was able to see from the windows up here all the way down to the hotel.

3 I was able to observe what was going on. On the other side I was able to

4 see everything that was happening in Edvard Kardelja Street, and this is

5 where the Sit factory and the AS cafe are located. I was able to see

6 about a hundred metres in that direction. In this direction, towards the

7 River Bosna, I was able to see all the way down to the courthouse, except

8 for the left-hand side of the street. I was also able to see this

9 building here, where the snipers were active, and this is the road leading

10 to the Sava River, and about 50 metres away from here there is the

11 embankment. And this is the road leading to the Bosna River.

12 Q. Now, being able to see all around that building that you were

13 staying in, in all different directions, did you see any military units,

14 any military over those -- during that eight- to ten-day period?

15 A. Yes, I was able to see a large number of soldiers and of my fellow

16 citizens, members of the 4th Detachment, and those who did not belong to

17 any formation, but they did have a mark on them in order to be able to go

18 and buy the basic foodstuffs such as bread and milk.

19 Here, on this location, was another cafe, establishment, and

20 through the windows here I was able to see them regroup here and head

21 towards the Bosna River and the bridge on the river, and also on this

22 street here. And right here I saw Fadil Topcagic, wearing a camouflage

23 uniform, although he had a leather jacket on. He did not have any

24 camouflage paint on his face. I also saw Cviko Tesic and I saw members of

25 the 4th Detachment. I was then able to follow them as they went into this

Page 8514

1 building and then behind this building, where they looted, or rather,

2 robbed some people, asking them to hand over their weapons. And they

3 said, "All right. We have all the documents," and they said, "Hand over

4 all the guns and pistols that you have," I mean the people that had

5 licences they obtained from the police previously.

6 I was able to observe all that from this window here, and from

7 this window there I was able to see the truck of the Pik company, a blue

8 truck, that transported explosives used to blow up the River Bosna bridge

9 between Bosanski Samac and Prud. He was -- the truck was going in this

10 direction, turned left here, and this is where I saw the members of the

11 4th Detachment.

12 You could see everything quite clearly from the windows here.

13 When there was any danger, I would hide in the attic, close to the

14 chimneys here. But I would usually go down and I spent time in the

15 premises here, in the rooms here.

16 Q. Okay. Let me just ask you some specific questions. You saw some

17 tanks from Crkvina on the first day of the war. Whose tanks were they?

18 Were they JNA tanks? Were they Croatian tanks? Whose tanks were they?

19 A. The tanks were undoubtedly JNA's tanks. In this area, nobody else

20 had any tanks, the Territorial Defence, neither the old one nor the new

21 one. I don't understand how these tanks could have come from Croatia

22 either.

23 Q. Okay. Now, did you ever see any other tanks during those seven to

24 ten days that you stayed in that building?

25 A. No, I didn't see any other tanks except for these tanks that

Page 8515

1 belonged to the JNA.

2 Q. Okay. So you saw tanks. On how many occasions did you see tanks

3 during that week to ten-day period?

4 A. Every day, except a young man lived here. His name is Admir

5 Dzakic. Now he's in the States. And he also provided me with

6 information. He would say, "Now tanks will pass by that will go towards

7 Brcko. They are going to attack Brcko," and so on. So there was only one

8 tank left in this street that I could see well, that I could see from the

9 windows where I was quite well, and this tank was aiming at Prud and

10 Croatia as well.

11 Q. Okay. Now, did you see any paramilitary forces during that

12 period, those seven to ten days?

13 A. Yes. I would see them every day.

14 Q. Did you ever see any locals from the Bosanski Samac area with the

15 paramilitary forces?

16 A. Yes. I saw them regularly, accompanied by these paramilitaries.

17 All of them were paramilitaries.

18 Q. Well, who were the local people, if you recall, that you saw with

19 the paramilitaries?

20 A. They were members of the 4th Detachment.

21 Q. And do you recall any names of persons from the 4th Detachment who

22 were with the paramilitaries?

23 A. I remember many names.

24 Q. Could you just tell the Court some of them, please?

25 A. Bruno Paleznica, Rajko Sofrenovic, Fadil Topcagic, Cviko Tesic. I

Page 8516

1 could keep giving you names for a long time.

2 Q. That's fine. Now, these paramilitaries that you saw, were these

3 local groups or were they from elsewhere?

4 A. No, they were not from the town, nor were they from the

5 municipality of Bosanski Samac, nor were they from Bosnia-Herzegovina.

6 They came from Serbia.

7 Q. And did they belong to any specific units that you were aware of?

8 A. Yes. They belonged to the Grey Wolves.

9 Q. Did you see any burning of any property during those seven to ten

10 days that you were in that building depicted in photograph 38 of P14A?

11 A. I don't have this photograph.

12 Q. No. The photograph in front of you. While you were staying there

13 on those seven to ten days, did you see any property being burned, any

14 property being destroyed?

15 A. In this location where I was, from there I could not see any

16 burning, except that across the street a house was hit by mortar fire, and

17 it belonged to a 4th Detachment member. But there has been information

18 that my apartment had been looted, the cafe called Molla, Rendezvous as

19 well, and many other cafes that belonged to Muslims from Bosanski Samac.

20 Q. And how did you get that information, that Muslim property was

21 being damaged?

22 A. This building that I was in, Admir Dzakic also lived there, and

23 some other men also would come there. They were Serbs. And they hid with

24 me for a while because they were trying to avoid the draft call from the

25 4th Detachment. While they were still free, they were moving around

Page 8517

1 Bosanski Samac with this sign, with this mark that they had tied to their

2 shoulder, their epaulettes. So I would get information from them, and I

3 also got food from them.

4 Q. Now, sir, did you, in the end of April, did you leave that

5 building?

6 A. Yes. I left the building on the 29th, the 29th of April.

7 Q. And did you escape Bosanski Samac? Did you leave Bosanski Samac,

8 sir?

9 A. Yes. I escaped on the 29th of April. I went through the door

10 here. This is the door that I was talking about. This is where I put

11 certain people who indicated me by nodding that I could pass. There were

12 about four men there. And I would like to say that two of them were

13 Serbs. So that I managed to reach the embankment. And in the evening

14 hours I swam across the River Sava.

15 Why did I decide to swim across the river on that very day? It

16 was because of the weather. It was raining and it was snowing, and the

17 water level in the Sava was very high. Sava looked almost like a sea.

18 The day before, on the local radio station, I listened to what the

19 arrested Nalic, Tihic, Izetbegovic, and Hadzialijagic were saying when

20 they were interrogated by the defendant Simo Zaric. So what was shown in

21 the special programme of TV Novi Sad was also broadcast on the local radio

22 station, so that the local population could hear the same thing. The four

23 men that I mentioned had to say my name, saying Alija Fitozovic did

24 everything. He armed us and everything else. But I'm not ashamed. Yes,

25 that's exactly what I did. I was the one that armed people.

Page 8518

1 Q. Okay. Now, after you left, what did you do?

2 A. After I left Bosanski Samac, I found myself in the Republic of

3 Croatia, and I asked where the rest of the Territorial Defence Bosanski

4 Samac was. They told me that they were in Domaljevac, that is to say, in

5 that part of the municipality that had not been occupied. I crossed over

6 into Bosnia as well, and that's where I stayed until the end of the war.

7 Q. And what did you do there?

8 A. In the war?

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. I fought in the war. I fought based on the visions of the Geneva

11 Convention.

12 Q. Who did you fight with? On which side, or which army?

13 A. I fought in the Territorial Defence, along with Muslims and

14 Croats, against all paramilitary units that had occupied a significant

15 portion of the municipality of Bosanski Samac.

16 Q. And in which areas did you fight?

17 A. I fought on the Posavina front line.

18 Q. And I'm just looking for which cities or towns or municipalities.

19 A. Orasje, Odzak, Modrica once, once in Derventa, and Brod, Bosanski

20 Brod. But those -- there I had some special tasks.

21 Q. Okay. Now, while you were hiding and after you escaped to Croatia

22 and came back to fight, what was the status of your family in Bosanski

23 Samac?

24 A. My family was evacuated an hour or two after Samac fell. It was a

25 trick. There was a trick that happened. It was said that they were

Page 8519

1 wounded. This was done by a Croatian doctor. And my family was

2 transferred to my parents' house and they remained there until they left

3 Bosanski Samac.

4 Q. Okay. So they -- when you said they were evacuated, they left the

5 apartment that you lived in, sir? Is that correct?

6 A. Yes. They left the apartment that we all lived together: My wife

7 and two sons.

8 Q. Did they voluntarily leave or were they forced out?

9 A. No. They had to leave, and they went to my parents' house. They

10 left because they feared for their security, and they went to my parents'

11 house that was about 100 or 200 metres further towards the centre.

12 Q. Now, up to this time, had your wife been working? Did she have a

13 job?

14 A. Yes, she did. She had worked for 10 or 12 years up until that

15 moment.

16 Q. What happened to your wife's job after the war began in Bosanski

17 Samac?

18 A. She lost her job. Three or four days after she lost her job.

19 Q. Was your wife the only person who lost her job after the war began

20 in Bosanski Samac?

21 A. Of course she was not the only one that lost her job. Many people

22 lost their jobs. I can almost say that everybody lost their jobs.

23 Q. Okay. People of what ethnic groups lost their jobs at your wife's

24 company?

25 A. People that were of Muslim or Croat ethnicity.

Page 8520

1 Q. And when you say she lost her job, did she quit or was she

2 terminated?

3 A. She was terminated.

4 Q. And you said the people that were Muslim or -- of Muslim or Croat

5 ethnicity lost their jobs. Did they voluntarily quit or were they

6 terminated?

7 A. They were terminated.

8 Q. And do you recall the name of that company that your wife worked

9 A. Yes, I do. The company was called Montaza.

10 Q. And what did your wife do for them?

11 A. She worked as a manager of a work unit of electricians. This was

12 a service company that built electrical installations for companies or

13 office buildings.

14 Q. Speaking of electronics, let's go back to the power company that

15 you worked for. After the assault in Bosanski Samac began, did anyone

16 lose their jobs at the power plant?

17 A. Yes, many, both Muslims and Croats, lost their jobs in

18 Elektrodistribucija, including the director, Perica Krstanovic, was the

19 one who gave them the pink slip. He is a director even today. It's true

20 that some of them stayed and kept their jobs, but those are very few and

21 far between.

22 Q. The persons who lost their jobs at your old company after the

23 attack on Bosanski Samac occurred, of what ethnic group did they belong?

24 A. They were Muslims and Croats.

25 Q. And those few who stayed, was there a reason that they stayed, if

Page 8521

1 you know?

2 A. Yes, there was a reason.

3 Q. And what was that?

4 A. Two or three of the best workers remained, who were indispensable

5 for the supply of the town with electricity. They knew the whole process

6 of the distribution of electricity, both in the town and in the

7 surrounding villages.

8 Q. Now, during this period after your wife was terminated or fired,

9 was she forced to work elsewhere?

10 A. No, she was not forced to work elsewhere.

11 Q. Now, just when was she and your children deported or exchanged?

12 A. They were exchanged on the 25th of August, 1992.

13 Q. So if your wife didn't have to work, what did she do from April to

14 August 25th?

15 A. My wife had to report every day to the police station of the

16 Bosanski Samac municipality. She had to do this twice a day, once in the

17 morning and once in the evening.

18 Q. Approximately how man days did she report twice a day to the

19 Bosanski Samac police station?

20 A. Exactly 107 days, twice a week --

21 THE INTERPRETER: Twice a day. Interpreter correction.


23 Q. Was your wife ever interrogated?

24 A. Yes, she was interrogated.

25 Q. How many times was your wife interrogated?

Page 8522

1 A. She was interrogated many times. I can't give you the exact

2 number. Maybe four or five times.

3 Q. Who was the person who interrogated her four or five times?

4 A. My wife was interrogated by the defendant Simo Zaric four or five

5 times.

6 Q. When your wife was exchanged in August, can you describe the

7 condition she was in, her physical, mental, emotional condition?

8 A. She looked very poorly, both physically and psychologically. Both

9 she and the children were in very bad shape.

10 Q. Emotionally, what condition was she in?

11 A. She was in very bad psychological shape, emotional shape.

12 Q. If you mention the name Simo Zaric to her, what would she do?

13 A. Even today, ten years later, when the name Simo Zaric is mentioned

14 to her, she starts shaking, and it is very hard for her to calm down.

15 Q. Now, what happened to your parents' apartment after your family

16 was exchanged?

17 A. Some other people moved into my parents' apartment, and they were

18 Serbs.

19 Q. Did you ever authorise these people to move into your parents'

20 home?

21 A. No, I never authorised anyone. I didn't authorise anyone, and

22 neither did my brother, sister, or my mother.

23 Q. How long did people live in your parents' home?

24 A. They lived there until 2001, maybe even 2002. I think it's 2002.

25 Q. Did you ever receive any rent from these people who were living in

Page 8523

1 your parents' home? Did you, your parents, your brothers, any member of

2 your family ever receive any rent?

3 A. No, nobody received any kind of rent or compensation.

4 Q. What about your apartment? What happened to your apartment?

5 A. A Serb also moved into my apartment.

6 Q. And did you ever authorise anyone to live in your apartment?

7 A. No, I never authorised anyone to do that.

8 Q. And did you ever receive any rent for people living in your

9 apartment?

10 A. No, I never received any rent.

11 Q. Has that property been returned to you and your family, your

12 parents? Is it your parents' home or apartment? Is it a home or an

13 apartment?

14 A. Yes. My apartment was returned to me, and my parents' house was

15 also returned.

16 Q. When was your parents' house and your apartment returned?

17 A. My house was -- my apartment was returned in October of 2000, and

18 the house was returned in the spring, in April of 2001.

19 Q. Who had to apply to get that property back?

20 A. I applied for my apartment, and for the house, my brother and

21 sister applied, because my mother died in the meantime. My father had

22 died before the war.

23 Q. Did it cost any money to get that apartment and the home back?

24 A. Yes, it did.

25 Q. What did you have to pay for?

Page 8524

1 A. I paid the man who works at the office for housing. I gave him

2 about 200 Deutschmarks for the apartment, 200 Deutschmarks for the house.

3 I wanted to expedite the whole process. I didn't want to wait, like

4 others.

5 Q. Was that money for a government application or was that what would

6 be called a bribe?

7 A. Well, you could call it a bribe.

8 Q. Where was the person who had to be bribed?

9 A. He was in Bosanski Samac. Now it's called Samac.

10 Q. And what was the name of the person?

11 A. Mile, nicknamed Pancir. I don't know his last name. I forgot. I

12 can't remember at this moment what his last name is.

13 Q. And if you didn't pay the bribe, how long would it have taken to

14 have gotten your apartment back?

15 A. Well, I don't know. I might have gotten it back that year, but

16 maybe not. I don't know.

17 Q. Now, you previously testified that your ancestors came to Bosanski

18 Samac in the middle part of the nineteenth century. You lived there all

19 your life, your family was there. If not for the war, the poor treatment

20 of your family and other Muslims and Croatians, including arrests and

21 interrogations and loss of jobs, would your family have left Bosanski

22 Samac in August of 1992?

23 A. No, we would not have left Bosanski Samac.

24 MR. WEINER: Thank you. No further questions, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Right at the break. We'll break now and continue

Page 8525

1 our proceedings at 1615 hours.

2 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

3 --- On resuming at 4.20 p.m.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Cross-examination. Who is going to start?

5 Mr. Pisarevic.

6 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

7 Cross-examined by Mr. Pisarevic:

8 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Fitozovic.

9 A. Good afternoon.

10 Q. My name is Borislav Pisarevic. I'm an attorney and I represent

11 Mr. Simo Zaric. Since we both speak the same language, I will give you

12 some instructions, and I would very much like you to abide by them. When

13 I ask you a question, I would like you to make a pause and then to

14 respond, in order to make it easier both for the interpreters and also for

15 the Trial Chamber and the Prosecution, because in that way they will be

16 able to hear both the question and the response. I would also like you

17 to, if possible, answer my questions with "yes," "no," "I don't know."

18 And should you be unclear about anything or if you don't understand a

19 question, please feel free to ask me to repeat the question, because I

20 will of course do so.

21 My first question relates to your membership in political parties.

22 Could you please tell me, or rather, the Trial Chamber: When did you

23 become a member of the League of Communists of Yugoslavia?

24 A. In 1979.

25 Q. When did you leave the SKJ, the League of Communists of

Page 8526

1 Yugoslavia?

2 A. In 1988.

3 Q. Could we agree that you became a member of the Croatian Democratic

4 Union on the 11th of November, 1990?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Could you tell us when you became a member of the Party of

7 Democratic Action of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

8 A. In 1991.

9 Q. Could you please be more specific? In which month of 1991?

10 A. In September 1991.

11 Q. Before joining the Party of Democratic Action, did you formally

12 leave the Croatian Democratic Union?

13 A. No, but I never officially left the League of Communists either.

14 Q. So at the same time you were a member of the Croatian Democratic

15 Union and of the Party of Democratic Action; is that correct?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Could you please tell me, then: In September 1991, which national

18 party were you a member of?

19 A. Party of Democratic Action.

20 Q. Yet at the same time you also had your membership card of the

21 Croatian Democratic Union; is that correct?

22 A. At that time I had the membership card of the League of Communists

23 of the Croatian Democratic Union, and of the Party of Democratic Action.

24 I did not discard any of them.

25 Q. Well, could you give me the reasons why you did not officially

Page 8527

1 resign from the Croatian Democratic Union?

2 A. I did not resign from the membership in the League of Communists

3 either. I simply ceased to be a member. Likewise, I did not resign from

4 the membership of the Croatian Democratic Union. I simply ceased being a

5 member of the Croatian Democratic Union. And I kept the membership cards

6 as a souvenir of the times past.

7 Q. Can we then agree that as of September you did not feel that you

8 belonged to the Croatian Democratic Union any more, that you were not a

9 member?

10 A. As of 1988, I no longer felt myself to be a member of the League

11 of Communists, and as of September 1991, I no longer felt to be a member

12 of the Croatian Democratic Union.

13 Q. So to conclude: As of September 1991, you were a member only of

14 the Party of Democratic Action of Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Your father's name is Asim Fitozovic?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Was he a member of the League of Communists?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Your father, Asim Fitozovic, was for many years the manager of the

21 Elektrodistribucija in Bosanski Samac; is that correct?

22 A. Yes, until the time when he was removed from office.

23 Q. You told us here that your mother was from Serbia. Is that

24 correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8528

1 Q. Can you please tell us from which town in Serbia or from which

2 part of Serbia is she from?

3 A. She was born in Sjenica, in the Republic of Serbia.

4 Q. Your mother is a Muslim; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Let us now go back to the issue of your employment. You said that

7 you worked in Elektrodistribucija in Bosanski Samac; is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. That's the same company in which your father, Asim Fitozovic, was

10 a manager; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You also said in your testimony that you were terminated in

13 December 1991 because you did not meet the requirements in terms of

14 education and that a Serb was employed in your stead. His name was Milan

15 Todorovic, who likewise did not meet the requirements in terms of

16 education. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Let's clear some things up. The manager in the

19 Elektrodistribucija company in Samac, which operated as part of the public

20 company Elktrodoboj, was Perica Krstanovic; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And your immediate superior, in December 1991, was Mr. Omer Nalic,

23 from Bosanski Samac, an ethnic Muslim, and he was the technical manager;

24 is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8529

1 Q. Could you please tell me: Is it correct that both you and this

2 Serb by the name of Milan Todorovic were transferred to another job

3 because you failed to pay the electricity bills? Is that correct or not?

4 A. That's not correct.

5 Q. Do you know that the general manager of Elektrodoboj company at

6 that time was Dzedo Balalic?

7 A. Yes, Dzevad Balalic, in fact.

8 Q. He's an ethnic Muslim; is that correct?

9 A. He was a Yugoslav.

10 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge of his ethnic affiliation?

11 A. Well, just as much knowledge as you have about the fact that he

12 was a Muslim, so I know as much as you do.

13 Q. Well, Mr. Fitozovic, I would like to ask you to respond to my

14 question. It is not my intention, and in fact I don't need to argue with

15 you about how much we know and what information we have. I simply asked

16 you if you have any personal knowledge about the fact that Mr. Dzevad

17 Balalic was a Yugoslav, and if you have, if you could share it with the

18 Trial Chamber.

19 A. I do not have personal knowledge about Dzevad Balalic being a

20 Muslim.

21 Q. Are you familiar with the fact that he ordered Perica Krstanovic,

22 the director of the Elektrodistribucija in Samac, to remove you and Milan

23 Todorovic from your posts in the management because you were not paying

24 your electricity bills?

25 A. At that time, the name of the company was OOUR

Page 8530

1 Elektrodistribucija, Bosanski Samac, and not Elektrodistribucija Samac, as

2 you call it, and I did not hear that the reason for the removal of myself

3 and my colleague Milan Todorovic was our failure to pay electricity bills.

4 Q. I will accept your suggestion. I have to admit that I do

5 sometimes tend to forget that at that time the town was called Bosanski

6 Samac and not Samac, and I will do my best to use that name.

7 Can you then tell me: Did you pay the electricity that you used

8 as the user regularly? I mean, did you pay your electricity bills

9 regularly in that period?

10 A. Yes, I paid my electricity bills regularly. If I didn't do so,

11 they wouldn't have -- in fact, before my arrival here in The Hague, I was

12 reconnected to the electricity grid. If I had any debts to pay, I would

13 have had to pay it. But since I did not owe them anything, I was

14 reconnected to the electricity supply system in Samac, five days ago.

15 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, my question to you was about the time period 1991.

16 In 1991, did you pay all your electricity bills? Yes or no.

17 A. I owed the amount of 25 Euro equivalent of 25 Euro.

18 Q. So you did not pay all your electricity bills on time?

19 A. No, I did not, Mr. Pisarevic.

20 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Fitozovic, how many years did you say you

21 were working for the electric company in Bosanski Samac?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I worked there until the beginning

23 of the war, 12 or 13 years, but with some breaks.

24 JUDGE WILLIAMS: And in your experience as a manager in that

25 company for 12 to 13 years, what was the usual procedure with respect to

Page 8531

1 customers in Bosanski Samac who failed to pay their electricity bills on

2 time and perhaps accumulated a number of bills? In your experience, if

3 you know, what was the usual procedure to deal with these debtors to the

4 electric company?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will give you a very specific

6 answer. Since for four or five years I was in charge of that service,

7 that among other things took care of the collection of the payments for

8 electricity. Electricity was paid on the basis of the bill that was

9 issued twice a year, and each month one had to pay the advance that was

10 determined by the Elektrodistribucija on the basis of the average

11 consumption of electricity over a certain period of time, which was

12 different for the summertime and for the wintertime, because there were

13 two different rates for the electricity in summertime and for wintertime.

14 Any balance in the period of six months had to be paid within 15 days

15 after the issuing of the bill. After that period, if the consumer failed

16 to pay the debt, or pay the bill that was based on the amount that was

17 calculated, the consumer would get a warning indicating that the debt

18 would have to be paid within 15 days. If the consumer again failed to pay

19 the electricity within this period, then the order for the disconnection

20 was issued. But then, the minimum amount is entered into the computer,

21 after which the consumers have to be disconnected.

22 So I will give you the examples in Euros. For instance, if the

23 amount entered would be above 200 Euros, then all the debtors owing more

24 than 200 Euros would be disconnected. At a certain period of time, I was

25 the one signing the orders for the electricians who then carried out the

Page 8532

1 disconnection, and I have to say that I never, ever received any warning

2 prior to the disconnection, nor was I ever forced to issue an order to an

3 electrician to disconnect me from the electricity grid. The amount that I

4 owed for the electricity were always very small, insignificant. I don't

5 see what bearing it has in a trial of this kind.

6 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you for that explanation.

7 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Yet there was a rule that the advance payments had to be made

9 every month?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Could you please confirm for me the fact that it was a rule that

12 the employees of Elektrodistribucija Bosanski Samac, and in other

13 companies connected to Elektrodistribucija, had to pay all their

14 electricity bills.

15 A. Elektrodistribucija employees in Bosanski Samac and in other

16 companies, in other places, were treated in the same way as all the other

17 consumers, on the basis of the general rules for the distribution of

18 electricity issued by the parliament, the then parliament. So there was

19 no discrimination which would -- according to which, for instance, they

20 would say, "The this one has to pay, that one doesn't."

21 Q. Okay. Let's cut the story short. But wouldn't you agree that it

22 is improper for a manager in Elektrodistribucija to owe any amount of

23 money for the electricity that he has consumed?

24 A. In the communist system it was considered to be improper.

25 Q. Thank you. In your testimony before this Trial Chamber, you said

Page 8533

1 that you had knowledge of two cases when weapons were unloaded for Serbs

2 in Bosanski Samac.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You said that the first incident took place in the early summer,

5 in Sokolusa Street, in Novo Naselje, in Bosanski Samac.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You said that you personally went to check this piece of

8 information and that you saw a truck, you saw some crates on the truck,

9 and that you assumed that the crates were full of weapons. You also said

10 that this happened at 9.00 p.m. Is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Since you said that this happened in the summer, could you confirm

13 that at 9.00 p.m. the visibility was still quite good?

14 A. In my testimony, I said that this happened between 9.00 and 9.30,

15 and at that time it was already dark.

16 Q. But it wasn't so dark that you could not see the truck. Was this

17 truck a military truck or a civilian truck?

18 A. A civilian truck.

19 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, while you testified, you did not mention the first

20 and last name of the person into whose house this truck was being

21 unloaded. Do you know his name, and could you give it to us?

22 A. I don't know all the people that live in that part of town.

23 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Fitozovic. On this particular

24 street, I think it's -- is it Sokolusa Street, where you say you saw the

25 truck being unloaded, could you tell us whether there are any street

Page 8534

1 lights, street lamps on that street, and whether you can remember whether

2 they were lit up at that time of the evening?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my testimony yesterday and the

4 day before, I said that I saw a truck being unloaded in Novo Naselje, and

5 the Defence knows that this Novo Naselje area is also called Sokolusa. In

6 this settlement, Novo Naselje, or Sokolusa, there is a street called

7 Sokolusa as well. The weapons were not being unloaded in the Sokolusa

8 Street in Novo Naselje, called Sokolusa, but in Novo Naselje. And with

9 regard to your question if there are any street lights in that part of

10 town, I can tell you that there are no street lights there in that part of

11 town. There are no street lights in that settlement, in that part of

12 town.

13 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

14 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, if I understood you correctly, you said that this

16 happened in Sokolusa Street. This Novo Naselje that you're talking about,

17 is this a settlement also called Mose Pijade?

18 A. Yes, this part of town or this settlement is also called Mosa

19 Pijade, Novo Naselje, or Sokolusa, so this part of town actually has three

20 names.

21 Q. In this neighbourhood, both Serbs, Croats, and Muslims alike had

22 their houses?

23 A. Yes, but the majority of the population was Serb.

24 Q. Before Trial Chamber, how can you claim that the weapons unloaded

25 to a man who lives in Mosa Pijade neighbourhood and that he's a Serb?

Page 8535

1 A. Well, you cannot answer this question with yes or no. Could you

2 please rephrase your question?

3 Q. Are you sure that this unloading that you saw in the neighbourhood

4 of Mosa Pijade took place in front of a house that belonged to a Serb?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Could you tell me how come you know this if you do not know this

7 person's first or last name? How can you conclude that he was a Serb?

8 A. I don't know how to answer this question, sir.

9 Q. Do you know the names of the men that were unloading the truck?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Could you give them to us?

12 A. Yes, I can.

13 Q. Please, Mr. Fitozovic, could you give us the names of the men for

14 whom you claim that they unloaded the truck.

15 A. It will take me some time to think of their names. I am very good

16 at remembering faces, but it's been 11 years since this event, so at this

17 moment I cannot remember their names. But I will definitely answer this

18 question, but unfortunately I can't do it at this very moment.

19 Q. Okay. So when you remember, then you will answer it.

20 A. Definitely.

21 Q. These people didn't wear uniforms; is that correct?

22 A. No, they did not.

23 Q. So they wore civilian clothes?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. These crates that were being unloaded that you saw were closed; is

Page 8536

1 that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. None of these crates opened and none of the contents of any of the

4 crates spilled out; is that correct?

5 A. Well, unfortunately, I didn't come so close to the truck, so none

6 of them spilled while I was there.

7 Q. So let's conclude. You did not see the contents of any of those

8 crates?

9 A. No.

10 Q. So if weapons -- so it's just your assumption that the crates were

11 full of weapons, or maybe gifts for New Year's? [As interpreted] Let's

12 move on to another incident that you described. It happened in the summer

13 of 1991.

14 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours --


16 MR. LAZAREVIC: I believe that we have some misunderstanding

17 here. Here it says, on page 42, line 11, sorry: "Maybe gifts for New

18 Year's." It looks like what Mr. Pisarevic said in his question although

19 we all heard that it is what the witness said. So I am kindly asking for

20 correction at this moment.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, I see. It was the witness who gave that

22 answer. Yes. Can we have it corrected? Yes. Mr. Pisarevic can ask the

23 witness as to how he answered that question so we can have it recorded.

24 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. When I asked you the question that it was just your assumption

Page 8537

1 that the crates were full of weapons, you answered that -- you said the

2 following: "Yes, or maybe gifts for New Year's"?

3 A. My answer was that I assumed that weapons were in the crates, or

4 maybe presents for New Year's. That was my answer. One of the two things

5 was in the crates.

6 Q. Thank you very much. So now we're going to move to the other

7 incident that you described that also happened in the summer of 1991. You

8 said that you sent a young man to check what was going on by the house

9 belonging to some Stevo, Para, that he went there and that he returned and

10 said that something was being unloaded from a truck. Is that what you

11 said?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Could you please now tell us the following: Could you give us his

14 name, the name of this person that you sent to observe this incident?

15 A. Safet, Srna.

16 Q. Safet Srna is a Muslim by ethnicity, is he not?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. He was a member of the SDA, was he not?

19 A. Yes, he was.

20 Q. So sometime in 1992, if my information is correct, he was also a

21 member of the reserve police; is that correct?

22 A. No. I think you're changing facts here.

23 Q. This Safet Srna, did he, with Adis Izetbegovic, on April 2nd, in

24 front of the Cafe Molla, shoot at a yellow Lada, the property of Mesic

25 Mersad, and the Lada had some people in it? One of them was Mersad

Page 8538

1 Mesic, Tota, and so on?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Was this Stevo, Para, actually Stevo Bozic?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Let's conclude. So you did not see this incident; you only heard

6 about it in the cafe. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes, and I was told who was seen and what happened.

8 Q. Thank you. Are you familiar with the fact that Alija Izetbegovic,

9 the president of the SDA party and the president of the presidency of

10 Bosnia-Herzegovina at that time, in June 1991 sent a public appeal to

11 members of the Muslim ethnicity not to respond to the draft calls and not

12 to join the JNA? Are you aware of that?

13 A. No, I'm not familiar with that fact.

14 Q. Are you familiar with the order of the presidency of the Socialist

15 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, which was made on January 9th, 1991, about

16 the disbanding of all armed units that were not part of the armed units of

17 the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the police?

18 A. No. I didn't follow these events because at that time it was

19 already clear to me what the JNA was, so I did not follow these events and

20 these orders.

21 Q. You didn't understand me fully. I didn't see these were news. I

22 said this was an order of the presidency.

23 A. No, I was not aware of this order.

24 Q. Are you aware of the fact that in August of 1991, on Mount Igman,

25 a meeting was held, an extended meeting of the SDA, with all presidents of

Page 8539

1 municipal councils of SDA, and the topic was the preparation for the war

2 of SDA?

3 A. No, I'm not aware of that fact, because at that time I was not a

4 member of the party.

5 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Pisarevic, for the sake of clarity, could you

6 tell us where Mount Igman is, please?

7 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, could you answer this question or could you confirm

9 that Mount Igman is above the city of Sarajevo, the capital of

10 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

11 A. Yes, and that's where it is even today.

12 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

13 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. When you became a member of the SDA in September of 1991, did

15 somebody tell you about this meeting?

16 A. No.

17 Q. So you don't know that at that meeting the Crisis Staff was formed

18 and also the security commission of the SDA for Bosnia-Herzegovina?

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

20 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, there's no evidence about that meeting

21 that has been testified to by any witness in this case, number one; number

22 two, this witness did not talk about it and says he didn't know about it.

23 It was prior to him joining the SDA. Therefore, they're putting in

24 evidence through another witness which -- or they're referring to evidence

25 which has never -- they're referring to information which has never been

Page 8540

1 admitted in this case, and therefore it's an improper question, Your

2 Honour. These are facts that aren't in evidence, especially after he's

3 indicated he wasn't there. Now it's question after question. What

4 they're doing is putting in all this other information. If they have a

5 witness who wants to testify about this meeting, fine, let them put that

6 in, but this is basically sneaking evidence in where there is no witness

7 who has testified to any of this.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pisarevic. I was waiting for the

9 interpretation. The objection is sustained. You can't go on asking a

10 witness about matters which he could not have been aware of because he

11 wasn't a member of the party at that time.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, just on that particular

13 topic: If Mr. Pisarevic wants to put his case to witnesses what he says

14 is the true situation, then of course the Prosecution invites him to

15 comply with the Rule. However, if a witness doesn't know --


17 MR. DI FAZIO: -- about that particular subject, then he is not

18 obliged to put his case, what he says is the truth about the matter to a

19 witness who says: "I don't know anything about that."


21 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I would just like to remind, if I

22 may, the Trial Chamber that the issue of the meeting on Mount Igman did

23 not appear before the Trial Chamber for the first time now. The same

24 question was asked of Mr. Sulejman Tihic and Izet Izetbegovic. But at any

25 rate, if Mr. Fitozovic doesn't know anything about it, I will ask no

Page 8541

1 further questions about it.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: The point is, with this particular witness, he

3 wasn't a member, so he can't testify to what he couldn't have known.

4 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. So you became a member of the SDA in September 1991?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. According to what you told us, you became a member of the

8 municipal board, you immediately became a member of the executive board of

9 the party; is that correct?

10 A. No.

11 Q. You were not a member of the executive board?

12 A. I was a member of the executive board.

13 Q. In order to be a member of the executive board of the SDA party,

14 you had to be a member of the municipal board of the SDA; is that not

15 correct?

16 A. There was no municipal board of the SDA, if I may assist you.

17 Q. There was the town board of the SDA; is that not correct?

18 A. Yes, that's correct, Mr. Pisarevic.

19 Q. This town board of the SDA, did it exist in the whole territory of

20 the municipality of Bosanski Samac?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did this town board of the SDA have any other local communes that

23 would also be covered by it?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Can we agree that the reason for this was because in the Samac

Page 8542

1 municipality --

2 A. Bosanski Samac.

3 Q. Bosanski Samac. Thank you. That in the local communes there were

4 no villages inhabited by Muslims?

5 A. No.

6 Q. So there was only the town board of the SDA; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And you became a member of the executive board of the town board

9 of the SDA in Bosanski Samac; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. In this capacity you probably attended the session held on the

12 19th of September, 1991. At that session the political and security

13 situation in the municipality of Samac and in the Doboj region and in

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina was discussed?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Do I understand you correctly you were not at the session, or is

17 it that you don't remember that this session happened and that you -- that

18 this topic was discussed?

19 A. I don't remember that such a session was held, and I do not recall

20 this topic being on the agenda.

21 Q. Do you remember that in September, the Crisis Staff of the Party

22 of Democratic Action was established for Bosanski Samac?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Do you remember that in September the commission for security, or

25 the security commission, of which you were a member and indeed the

Page 8543

1 chairman, was formed?

2 A. As far as I can remember, its name was different.

3 Q. Was the name of the commission Komisija Sigurnost, that being the

4 Croatian term for security, not Bezbjednost, that being the Serbian term?

5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note.

6 A. Yes, it was Sigurnost.

7 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. However, in Bosnia and Herzegovina, the term "Bezbjednost was

9 mostly used; is that not correct?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Is that one and the same thing, Bezbjednost and Sigurnost?

12 A. I don't know if it's one and the same thing, but this commission

13 was called Komisija Sigurnost.

14 Q. Can you please confirm that this commission was indeed established

15 in September 1991 and that you were the chairman of the commission?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Could you please tell me, what was the main task of this

18 commission?

19 A. I have already explained what its main task was. I did it

20 yesterday or the day before. So my answer would be the same as the one

21 that I had already furnished.

22 Q. Was one of the tasks of the commission to structure the documents,

23 such as the organisational plans, mobilisation plans, things like that,

24 war plans?

25 A. No.

Page 8544

1 Q. Yet according to what you told us, Mr. Fitozovic, in September you

2 became the commander of an armed unit that was established.

3 A. No. No such unit was formed.

4 Q. Can you tell us, then: When did you establish this unit, this

5 armed unit?

6 A. That was not an armed unit.

7 Q. This unit and its members, at least some of the members, were they

8 not armed with automatic rifles?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you not seek weapons for this unit from Mr. Sulejman Tihic and

11 from Mr. Izet Izetbegovic, the president and the vice-president of the

12 Democratic Action Party in Bosanski Samac respectively?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. If I understood you correctly, you requested this from them at the

15 session of the executive board of the town board of the SDA in Bosanski

16 Samac.

17 A. No.

18 Q. Can you tell me, where did you request this from them?

19 A. I will respond, although I do not feel an obligation to do so. On

20 my -- as I walked around the town.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Fitozovic, you answer all questions put to you

22 by counsel. The Trial Chamber is following the questions, the Prosecution

23 is following the questions. If the questions are objectionable on any

24 ground at all, either the Prosecution will say so or the Trial Chamber

25 will say so, and in that case, you don't answer the question; otherwise

Page 8545

1 you answer the questions put to you by counsel.

2 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, as I prepared for this cross-examination, I read

4 some documents that were disclosed to me in the course of the proceedings

5 by the Prosecution. In one such document I found the following words:

6 "At the same time, in the party, we set up the Crisis Staff, the

7 command, and we set up the required documents, such as the war plan, et

8 cetera. Alija Fitozovic was in charge of these things, since no other

9 Muslim wanted to join in and become the commander."

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

11 MR. WEINER: What is he referring to? He said "some documents."

12 I'd like to know what he's referring to.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, to identify the document from which the

14 information --

15 MR. WEINER: If he's talking about a transcript, a statement of

16 someone else.


18 Yes, Counsel. Can you identify the document?

19 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I failed to do so, Your

20 Honours. These are the memoirs of Mr. Sulejman Tihic.

21 MR. WEINER: Then I'd have an objection. Number one, we attempted

22 to introduce the memoirs of Sulejman Tihic. Counsel -- one of the

23 counsel, I think Mr. Pantelic, objected, and all counsel from the Defence

24 fought us for introducing that. So those are not before the Court at this

25 time. So what counsel is trying to do is take statements from Mr. Tihic

Page 8546

1 and use those against this other witness. Mr. Tihic testified. You can

2 use Mr. Tihic's testimony and argue, at the end of the case, Tihic said

3 this, Fitozovic said this. What they are trying to do is impeach Witness

4 Fitozovic with statements made by Tihic. Whenever that is has happened

5 we've objected. And they said you can't impeach one witness with the

6 statement of another. And that's what they're trying to do here. They

7 would not let that document in which it would have been in evidence, but

8 it wasn't, which it's fine, but now they're trying to back door everything

9 in and they're trying to use it as a piece of evidence, which it isn't

10 right now. And number two, they're trying to impeach one witness with the

11 statement of another witness and you just can't do that. I know they

12 won't allow that in the United States, or Great Britain or I don't think

13 any --

14 JUDGE MUMBA: No. The procedures don't allow that here either.

15 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, if I may add something of importance

16 to the issue, because I was in question, and my learned friend is right,

17 when I raised this issue at the beginning of the trial, and indeed the

18 memoirs of Mr. Tihic were not admitted. We objected. That's the first

19 point. But let me refresh the memory of my friend. Maybe he didn't

20 carefully read the transcript, or maybe he was not present in the

21 courtroom when, after the same issue was raised, and the instruction of

22 Judge Singh, Honourable Judge Singh who was seated there, stated that I as

23 Defence counsel can put this issue and these topics to Mr. Tihic, not

24 directly, but with this line of questioning. If he agrees, then it's

25 okay. If not, then he will give some other information. In case of Mr.

Page 8547

1 Izetbegovic, the issue was the following: The procedure was the

2 following: Judge -- Honourable Judge Singh said that all these persons

3 here are Prosecutor witnesses. So it's absolutely permissible, it's

4 absolutely in accordance with the principle of law, to try to impeach one

5 of the other witness of the Prosecution that way. And everything is in

6 transcript. So it's not -- it is not absolutely founded on facts what my

7 learned friend just said. It was the case when we were permitted by this

8 Trial Chamber to introduce certain portions of memoirs of Sulejman Tihic.

9 Although they are not admitted. It's just a creation of certain, I would

10 say, supporting -- explanation of certain events of very important impact

11 of this case. That was the case. So I just for the record want to tell

12 you this.

13 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, if I could just respond briefly to two

14 points. Number one, with regard to Mr. Tihic, you can impeach a witness

15 by their prior statements if they are inconsistent. That's the rule. You

16 can impeach with a prior inconsistent statement. Tihic came up and

17 testified and he had a right to impeach him with any prior inconsistent

18 statements in a book which was written by Tihic. On the other hand, if

19 you recall when Mr. Izetbegovic got on the stand, and Mr. Pantelic tried

20 to question him concerning a statement made by Mr. Tihic about

21 Mr. Izetbegovic. It wasn't a complimentary statement. It was a statement

22 where they said: Mr. Tihic said here that he wasn't happy with you because

23 of your drinking. We objected at that time and we said you cannot impeach

24 one witness with the statement of another. And this Court, if you want,

25 I'll get the citation at the break, this Court refused to allow that

Page 8548

1 testimony, as this Court has refused to allow any time during this trial

2 impeaching one witness with the statement of another.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I recall that problem, and even after Judge

4 Singh had stated what he had stated, at a later stage it was explained

5 that the procedure in this trial is that you don't impeach a witness with

6 the statement of another witness.

7 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I did not say that

8 this was Mr. Tihic's statement. This is a piece of fiction, a literary

9 work of Mr. Tihic. Mr. Tihic wrote it as his contribution to history or

10 literature. This is not a statement. Mr. Tihic's statement that he gave

11 here to the Tribunal, I did not mention to Mr. Fitozovic. I just

12 indicated -- I just read out one piece from these memoirs. And I just

13 wanted to ask Mr. Fitozovic whether this was true or not.

14 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Pisarevic, the general meaning of "memoirs,"

15 or I think, in fact, the term "the recollections" of Mr. Tihic was used in

16 the early stages of the trial where this was an issue, that memoirs,

17 recollections, diaries, are not generally not viewed as works of fiction

18 as such. So I have a little bit of a problem with you saying this is a

19 piece of fiction, a literary work of Mr. Tihic. I can't recollect whether

20 it was published or not. It's my feeling that it wasn't. And one of the

21 things in issue earlier on in the trial was the fact that he had not

22 written these memoirs contemporaneously with the events as they occurred

23 but several years or so after the event, and so on. But that, be as it

24 may, I don't think memoirs, recollections, diaries are necessarily going

25 to be synonymous with works of fiction.

Page 8549

1 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I just -- I just wanted to note on

2 October 19th, 2001, that's where Mr. Izetbegovic was cross-examined by

3 Pantelic concerning remarks by Mr. Tihic in his book and we objected and

4 it was sustained because what it is is you're asking one witness to

5 comment really on the credibility of another witness.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: I think that is sufficient for counsel. Can we move

7 on?

8 THE INTERPRETER: The microphone is not on.

9 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I would just like to remind the

10 Chamber that while we were hearing the witness Kemal Mehinovic, we

11 referred to a book of Mr. Dragan Lukac, when we told him that a murder

12 that he mentioned did not happen in Samac but in Obudovac. So in our

13 opinion, these are also some kinds of recollections or historical events

14 that Mr. Lukac described, and that was not disallowed. I do not remember,

15 however, whether the Prosecution had any objections. So in the same vein,

16 I thought that these recollections of Mr. Tihic would have the same

17 treatment. But if the Trial Chamber states that this should not be used,

18 that is not a problem. We will just continue.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pisarevic. You will not use that. The

20 incident with Dragan Lukac and I think his book is slightly different from

21 the memoirs you are trying to use.

22 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honours. Thank

23 you very much.

24 Q. In your statement, and when you testified before this Chamber, you

25 said that you asked for weapons from the SDA party because the Muslim

Page 8550

1 population was not armed. This is page 8384, so page 8384, line 17.

2 A. Is this in my statement?

3 Q. Yes. No, not in your statement. This was not in the written

4 statement that you gave in 1995. You said this before this Chamber, so

5 this happened during your testimony.

6 A. Could you please rephrase the question, then?

7 Q. The weapons that you were seeking, you wanted to get them from the

8 SDA party because, according to your testimony, the Muslim population was

9 not armed?

10 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, would it help if he read the exact

11 statement? He's paraphrasing, and I'm --

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Maybe if he read from the transcript, you

13 mean?

14 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will ask my

15 colleague to read this.


17 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... easiest way.


19 MR. LAZAREVIC: So here it is. Page 8384:

20 "On the executive board, I told Sulejman Tihic, the president of

21 SDA, that the situation in the town, in municipality, and in the region

22 was very complex, that there was a lot of weapons surrounding us, that

23 Serbs were armed, and it was clear that none of Muslims were armed. And

24 at that time I told Tihic, I told him the following: 'If he wanted me, I

25 would still be the president of the safety commission, but I wanted him to

Page 8551

1 get some arms so that we could also have some weapons.'"

2 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. This is what you said before this Trial Chamber; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Could you please clarify a certain issue, or if you would agree

6 with me about the following: When you used this phrase "we," did this

7 refer to the SDA party and the Muslim population?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Did it only refer to the Muslim population?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Well, could you tell me, then: Who did you talk about when you

12 said "we"?

13 A. The citizens of Bosanski Samac. That's who I was talking about.

14 Q. And you had this talk with the president of the municipal board,

15 Sulejman Tihic, of SDA; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Would you agree that the Party of Democratic Action was the party

18 of the Muslim population in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Would you agree further that members of the SDA were -- that the

21 membership was exclusively Muslim?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Would you agree that in this unit of yours, only Muslims were

24 represented?

25 A. I do not understand this question. What do you mean, "unit of

Page 8552

1 yours"?

2 A. The unit.

3 Q. The unit that was under your command.

4 A. I didn't command anybody at the time.

5 Q. Could you tell us, then, when you started having command over this

6 unit?

7 A. I said the following: I asked from Sulejman Tihic some weapons,

8 and I also said that Sulejman Tihic got scared by this idea.

9 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, we already heard this.

10 A. And Mr. Sulejman Tihic, from that moment on, did not dare to do

11 anything with things military. He didn't dare to do anything about a unit

12 or anything like that. If you're asking questions, could you please be

13 more specific, because I do not want to create confusion for this

14 Honourable Chamber. I could answer one of your questions with "no," even

15 though I might have answered a similar question by the Prosecution

16 yesterday with "yes."

17 Q. Okay, then. Here's a clearer question: When you became the

18 commander of this military, armed unit that was in Bosanski Samac, when

19 did you become its commander?

20 A. In September there was no military armed unit in Bosanski Samac.

21 Q. Could you please tell this Trial Chamber when this unit was

22 created?

23 A. I said this happened in October or in late September.

24 Q. So this means that at the end of September and in October of 1991,

25 you created this unit?

Page 8553

1 A. I, Alija Fitozovic, personally created this unit, I as Alija

2 Fitozovic, the citizen, and not the Party of Democratic Action. You said

3 yourself earlier that members of the SDA were mostly Muslims.

4 Q. Please, sir.

5 A. Please let me finish. There were also Croats in this unit, and

6 Serbs.

7 Q. Please. We will come to that. We will come to all the members

8 and we'll talk about who was a member there. Please do not hurry.

9 A. Well, please, then, let's follow a chronological order.

10 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, I didn't dream up this September. You said

11 yourself in your testimony that this happened at the end of September,

12 that is to say, the beginning of October, 1991.

13 A. I entered the town board at the beginning of September, the board

14 of SDA.

15 Q. This unit was created in late September/early October 1991; is

16 that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You claim, Mr. Fitozovic, that the Party of Democratic Action had

19 nothing to do with the creation of this unit; is that correct?

20 A. It did not.

21 Q. Did they have anything to do with this, the SDA party? Did these

22 two units, the SDA party and this military unit, have any contact?

23 A. Well, if you follow a chronological order, you will get the answer

24 to this.

25 Q. Well, I'm asking you now.

Page 8554

1 A. Well, I cannot answer you now.

2 Q. Well, if you cannot, that's okay.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: No. The question was clear from counsel, whether

4 the unit you were leading and the SDA party, as a political party, had any

5 connection or any contact. So you can answer that question.

6 Yes, Mr. Weiner.

7 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, maybe just to speed things up, maybe the

8 witness should be advised that in direct examination you might follow a

9 chronological order; however, on cross-examination counsel is not required

10 to follow a chronological order and can jump around, and that he should

11 just be prepared for that.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, mean the chronological order according to the

13 events, when questioning the witness. I see.

14 MR. WEINER: He keeps saying, "You're not following chronological

15 order." On direct, the Prosecution will do that or when they direct, they

16 will do it, but on cross you can move all around at different times, and

17 if they do it, you still have to answer the question. That's their

18 prerogative how they want to ask questions on cross-examination.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I'm sure Mr. Fitozovic has understood that.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, are you now ready to answer the question that I

23 asked?

24 A. Could you please repeat it?

25 Q. Did this unit that you had the command over, did it have any

Page 8555

1 contact with the SDA party and with the municipal board of the SDA party?

2 A. Yes, but it had contact with the town board.

3 Q. Okay. So with the town board. So that means, if I understood you

4 correctly, that there had been some joint activities of the SDA town board

5 and the command of this unit?

6 A. Yes.

7 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this might be a good

8 time to take our break.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. We'll resume our proceedings at 1805.

10 --- Recess taken at 5.44 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 6.05 p.m.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Cross-examination is continuing.

13 Mr. Pisarevic.

14 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

15 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, you testified before this Trial Chamber that the

16 unit, that military unit, was composed of Muslims, Croats, Albanians, and

17 Roma.

18 A. Yes.

19 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I would now like the usher to show

20 Exhibit D14/4, and the Serb version, which is D14/4 ter, to the witness.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Oh, the usher is not here.

22 MR. PANTELIC: I can help in the meantime.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Thank you very much.

24 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, you have already seen this list in the course of

Page 8556

1 the direct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You already told us that these are the people that were members of

4 this unit; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Could you please read the first and last name of the person listed

7 under 21.

8 A. Yes, I read it.

9 Q. Can you please read it out loud.

10 A. Markovic Dragan, Vuka Karadzica.

11 Q. This name --

12 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Could you please put this list on

13 the ELMO. Mr. Pantelic will help you.

14 Mr. Pantelic, you can now go back to your seat.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

16 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. You've indicated that this person's name is Dragan Markovic.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you please tell us, and could you agree with me, that this

20 person comes from a mixed marriage?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you. Could you please read out loud the first and last name

23 of the person listed under 22. Zvonimir Nenadic.

24 Q. Can we agree that this person is of Croat ethnicity?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8557

1 Q. Can you please look at and read out the name of the person listed

2 under 154.

3 A. Yes, I did read it.

4 Q. Could you please read it out loud.

5 A. Dzebic Ivica.

6 Q. Is that person also, this Dzebic Ivica, of Croat ethnicity?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now I would like you to read out the full name of the person

9 listed under 172.

10 A. Yes, I read it.

11 Q. Could you please tell us the name.

12 A. Masic Zeljko.

13 Q. Can we agree that this person is also a Croat, of Croat ethnicity?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you please read out the name of the person listed under 175.

16 A. I read it.

17 Q. Could you please read it out loud.

18 A. Milanovic Franjo, Marsala Tita Street.

19 Q. Could you please have another look. I think it should read

20 Milinovic Franjo.

21 A. It says here Milanovic Franjo.

22 Q. It's a typing error, but at any rate is that person also a Croat?

23 A. Probably yes.

24 Q. And finally, under 194?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8558

1 Q. Could you please read it out loud.

2 A. Jurendic Ilija.

3 Q. Is that person also a Croat?

4 A. I think so.

5 Q. Thank you. Could we agree that there are no other Croat members

6 on this list?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So to conclude: On the list of your unit, there are only five

9 ethnic Croats; is that correct?

10 A. Yes, but that was in the initial stage, when the first lists were

11 made. We can say that this is still 1991.

12 Q. All right. Could you now read out the name of the person listed

13 under 111.

14 A. Of course I will. Limani Ljazim.

15 Q. Could you please confirm whether this person is an ethnic

16 Albanian.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Could you please read out the full name of the person listed under

19 150.

20 A. The person listed under 150 is Bajrami Sukrija, Bulevar Revolucije

21 Street.

22 Q. Could you please confirm that the person listed under 150 is of

23 Albanian ethnicity?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Could you please read out the full name of the person listed under

Page 8559

1 167.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much, Mr. Pantelic, for your

3 assistance.

4 MR. PANTELIC: Always in the service of justice, Your Honour.

5 A. Under 167 we have the name Idrizi Esad.

6 Q. Can you confirm that he is also an ethnic Albanian?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Right here next to it, could you please read out the name of the

10 person listed under 168.

11 A. Idrizi Rexhep.

12 Q. Do you also agree that he's an ethnic Albanian?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And if I could just ask you to read out the full name of the

15 person listed under 206.

16 A. Yes. Listed under 206 there is the name of Mehmedi Almir,

17 father's name Himzije.

18 Q. Can we agree that this person is also an ethnic Albanian?

19 A. Yes, we can.

20 Q. Thank you. Can we then agree that the total number of ethnic

21 Albanians on this list is five?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can we agree about the fact that the five Albanians, five ethnic

24 Albanians, that they were Muslims, that they were of the Islamic religion?

25 A. Yes, we can agree with that fact.

Page 8560

1 Q. If you saw this list, and you did see this list, did you notice

2 that on this list there isn't a single person of Serb ethnicity?

3 A. Yes, I did notice that there are no ethnic Serbs, but I have to

4 note that this list was made in 1991.

5 Q. Can we agree that in this unit, in terms of percentages, there

6 were about 98 per cent of Muslims, ethnic Muslims?

7 A. I don't have my calculator here with me, but I trust in that your

8 calculation is correct.

9 Q. I hope that you will agree with me that this percentage, 98 per

10 cent of Muslims in this unit, does not reflect the ethnic composition of

11 the town of Samac, of the town of Bosanski Samac, and of the municipality

12 of Bosanski Samac?

13 A. Yes, of course it does not reflect the ethnic composition, the

14 ethnic structure that existed in the municipality of Bosanski Samac and

15 the town of Bosanski Samac, but I have to tell you that this list was made

16 in October or September 1991.

17 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Just if I may have just a moment.


19 [Defence counsel confer]

20 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for your indulgence,

21 Your Honours.

22 Q. Do you still maintain that this was not a military unit of Muslims

23 from Bosanski Samac?

24 A. At the time when this list was made, this was not a military unit

25 at all, because a military unit has weapons. When this unit -- when this

Page 8561

1 list was made, nobody had any weapons. I have already said that this list

2 was made in September or October, right at the very beginning.

3 Q. Could you please specify the year for the transcript.

4 A. 1991.

5 Q. So this list that you have before you now was made in early

6 September -- no. In fact in late September and in early October 1991?

7 A. Yes. I make allowance for the possibility that it may have been

8 in November.

9 Q. 1991?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, the existence of this unit, was it made public

12 through the media in the town of Bosanski Samac and in the municipality of

13 Bosanski Samac?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Can we then agree that this was a secret and illegal organisation?

16 MR. WEINER: I object to that.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

18 MR. WEINER: You can ask him if it was a public organisation. You

19 could probably ask him if it's a secret organisation. However, to

20 characterise it as an illegal organisation, that is a legal -- that's a

21 legal decision or conclusion.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It's a matter for submission.

23 Yes, Counsel. Can you rephrase your question?

24 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. I will do so, Your

25 Honours.

Page 8562

1 Q. Can we agree that the organisation of this unit was secret, or

2 rather, that this unit was organised secretly?

3 A. Yes, just as it is the case with the 4th Detachment.

4 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, I really have to ask you not to make comparisons in

5 all of your answers, but to merely answer the question.

6 A. As far as I know, I did not make comparisons in each of my

7 answers, just in this one.

8 Q. Could I kindly ask you to refrain from doing that in your further

9 answers.

10 A. I will try.

11 Q. Could you please tell me: Was the establishment of such units

12 illegal and punishable in September 1991?

13 MR. WEINER: I object to that. Again, he's not an attorney. If

14 they want to qualify him with some sort of legal background, I think he

15 could answer that question, but even with qualifications it's -- if they

16 want to bring witness on to talk about what you could legally and could

17 not legally do, that's one thing, but to have this witness discuss off

18 illegal conclusions is improper.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pisarevic, I hope we don't have to go through

20 this again.

21 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I counted with the

22 fact that Mr. Fitozovic is educated enough and that he has enough

23 knowledge, because of his education and because of his military

24 training --

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you proceed with your cross-examination? We've

Page 8563

1 ruled on that. Please, just proceed with your cross-examination.

2 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 Q. Are you aware of the fact, Mr. Fitozovic, that the Socialist

4 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, during 1991, was still a part of the

5 Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Were you aware of the fact that at that time, in the Socialist

8 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, as well as in other republics, federal and

9 republic laws were enforced -- were in force?

10 A. Yes, but they were not complied with.

11 Q. My question was whether they were in force in this territory.

12 A. My answer was that they were not because they were not complied

13 with.

14 Q. Thank you. Now we're going to move on to the matter of arming

15 this military unit. You said that the first 30 automatic rifles were

16 procured by Izet Izetbegovic for the unit. Is that correct?

17 A. No, that's not what I said. I said that I got these rifles

18 through private channels.

19 Q. I'm going to remind you, Mr. Fitozovic. At first that's exactly

20 what you said, but then, after the intervention of the Trial Chamber, you

21 said that it was Izet Izetbegovic who did this.

22 A. Yes, that's correct, Mr. Pisarevic. I procured the weapons

23 privately from Izet Izetbegovic.

24 Q. Izet Izetbegovic was at that time the vice-president of the Party

25 of Democratic Action. He was the vice-president of the town board of SDA.

Page 8564

1 Is that correct?

2 A. I'm not sure. I would like to help you here, but I cannot

3 remember.

4 Q. Are you familiar who Mr. Izet Izetbegovic got the weapons from?

5 A. I don't know anything about that. I wasn't interested.

6 Q. Do you know the name of Senahid Mehic [As interpreted]? Did this

7 name mean anything to you?

8 A. It means nothing to me, Senahid Mehic.

9 Q. Could we agree that among these 30 automatic rifles there were

10 also rifles of the type of Genscher and Zagi?

11 A. No, we could not agree on that.

12 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, I just --

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

14 MR. LAZAREVIC: On the transcript, page 60, line 25, the name is

15 Senahid Memic, not Mehic. Instead of H, it is M. Just to make sure,

16 because this name is going to be mentioned on other occasions, so...

17 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. That is correct, Mr. Pisarevic?

18 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct, Your Honour.

19 Q. So you did not receive any rifle of the type of Zagi in this

20 delivery?

21 A. No.

22 Q. In your unit, did you have this type of rifle? Did have you this

23 automatic rifle, Zagi?

24 A. No.

25 Q. You are a military person. You have some military knowledge.

Page 8565

1 Could you explain to me what kind of weapon this rifle is, this Zagi

2 automatic rifle?

3 A. Zagi is a rifle manufactured in Croatia. They were the ones who

4 were making these rifles.

5 Q. This type of arms appeared for the first time in the theatres in

6 1991; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. On that occasion, did you, from Mr. Izet Izetbegovic, receive five

9 pistols with the calibre 7.62 millimetres?

10 A. No, Mr. Pisarevic.

11 Q. On that occasion, did you receive from Mr. Izet Izetbegovic sets

12 of 120 bullets?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did a certain person of Muslim ethnicity who had a white Golf car

15 with Sarajevo licence plates SA335820, in December, bring some ammunition

16 to you?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Could we agree -- in other words, are you aware that at that time,

19 the procurement of automatic rifles was illegal?

20 A. I was not aware of that.

21 Q. Do you know whether there had been any automatic military weapons

22 in the open markets?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Well, all right, then. Could you buy these things in shops where

25 other weapons were sold?

Page 8566

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So it is your claim that in 1991, automatic military arms could be

3 bought in weapons stores, quite openly, in Yugoslavia?

4 A. I am not talking about Yugoslavia; I'm talking about the town of

5 Bosanski Samac. It is my claim that in Bosanski Samac, these arms could

6 be bought, and not only in shops that were specialised or registered for

7 selling weapons of that kind.

8 Q. Could we then agree that that kind of purchase was illegal?

9 A. Everything was legal at that time. I wouldn't know.

10 MR. WEINER: I'd object.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner.

12 MR. WEINER: I'd object. You can ask if he's aware of certain

13 laws, but you could have a law, but something can still be legal because

14 it could be -- it could occur under duress, it could occur in different

15 circumstances that -- he can ask him, he can read a law to him and say

16 were you aware of this law or were you aware that there were laws on this,

17 relating to this issue, relating to the procurement of weapons, the

18 possession of weapons. But to ask if a particular purchase is legal or

19 illegal, then you need a -- I'd at least argue you need someone to offer a

20 legal conclusion, and this is not the witness to do that.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: I think let's do it this way, Mr. Pisarevic. This

22 is a fact witness, and you deal with facts, all right? Let him answer his

23 questions, right? Now if any of the answers amount to what is illegal, in

24 your view, then you deal with that by way of submission at the end of the

25 case, so that we avoid this problem of coming into the legality of

Page 8567

1 whatever was being done, with a fact witness.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Counsel does not have the mike on.

3 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. In what shops in Bosanski Samac could automatic military weapons

5 be bought, then?

6 A. There were such shops in the town. I said earlier, they weren't

7 only meant for selling arms. You could buy it, for example, at the

8 Spriceraj [phoen].

9 Q. What is that? Where was this Spriceraj?

10 A. It was in the town.

11 Q. Well, my next question is going to be: What shop was this, and

12 who was the owner of that shop in which you could buy automatic military

13 rifles?

14 A. Well, for example, automatic weapons could be bought in the shop

15 that belonged to Mrs. Simo Zaric. She had a general type store.

16 Q. Could you please tell me, Mr. Fitozovic, who bought these military

17 weapons in the shop that belonged to Mrs. Simo Zaric?

18 A. I could tell you who the weapons were bought from.

19 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, my question was: Who bought the weapons? You had

20 already said earlier who the weapons were bought from. Could you please

21 tell me: Who bought the automatic military rifles in the store belonging

22 to Mrs. Simo Zaric?

23 A. Bahrija Vajzovic bought it. He paid 1,000 -- 100 Deutschmarks for

24 it.

25 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, Bahrija Vajzovic is dead; is that correct?

Page 8568

1 A. Yes, unfortunately he is.

2 Q. In your testimony, you mentioned another procurement of automatic

3 rifles. In November of 1991, when a truck belonging to a Slovenian

4 company, Viator, broke down, this truck was transferring weapons to

5 Sarajevo; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Is it true that this transfer of weapons was done with other

8 members of your unit in the warehouse of the Sarajevo brewery?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. This warehouse of the Sarajevo brewery is at the mouth of Bosna

11 into Sava, above the embankment that is around the Gacko Naselje [pheon]?

12 A. That's right, Mr. Pisarevic.

13 Q. This transfer was done there; is that correct?

14 A. This area is open to the public.

15 Q. Do you know, Mr. Fitozovic, Namik Suljic, who at that time, in

16 November 1991, was the assistant to the police commander in Bosanski

17 Samac?

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 Q. Namik Suljic is a Muslim; is that correct?

20 A. Yes, I'm sure that he is.

21 Q. Could you please confirm the fact that it was in fact Namik

22 Suljic, as the assistant to the police commander in Bosanski Samac, during

23 the transfer of the weapons in this public place, secured and made sure

24 that the transfer was successful?

25 A. That is not correct.

Page 8569

1 Q. You transferred the weapons to a truck that was owned by the

2 veterinary station in Bosanski Samac; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. That truck was not owned by Smail Smailovic, a member of your

5 unit?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Smail Smailovic was just the driver of the truck in the veterinary

8 station; is that correct?

9 A. Yes. He was an employee of the veterinary station and his

10 profession was driver. So you are correct.

11 Q. Can a driver take a vehicle which is not his property --

12 MR. WEINER: I'd object again, Your Honour. We're getting back

13 into legal decisions, whether a person is allowed to take them off time,

14 what access anyone has.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: I wanted the question completed. Maybe counsel can

16 complete the question and let's see whether it's objectionable.

17 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can rephrase the

18 question.

19 Q. How do you explain the fact that the driver, Smail Smailovic, was

20 able to take the truck of the veterinary station and use it for party

21 purposes?

22 A. I don't know what party purposes are you referring to.

23 Q. Let me be more specific. The transfer of weapons.

24 A. The party that you're implicating had nothing to do with the

25 transfer of weapons. It was a political party. It was not registered for

Page 8570

1 that kind of activity. It was not a service company that would engage in

2 transfers of this kind, or any kind.

3 Q. Right at the beginning I told you that it was -- I put it to you

4 that it was your unit that did it.

5 A. Yes, but that unit had nothing to do with the Party of Democratic

6 Action. How long do we have to go on like this?

7 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, we have already heard this statement of yours, but

8 you failed to respond to my question. How do you explain that the driver,

9 Smail Smailovic, was able to take the truck from the veterinary station,

10 of his own free will, and use it for the transfer of weapons?

11 A. Well, it's quite apparent that he took it of his own will, and he

12 probably should be held responsible by somebody. I assume that somebody

13 would have to be his immediate superior in the veterinary station. Now,

14 whether he was actually held responsible for this, I don't know.

15 Q. The weapons were transferred -- I mean, you organised the transfer

16 of the weapons?

17 A. Yes. I'm sorry. Could we please remove this list from the ELMO.

18 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Could I please ask the usher to

19 remove the list from the ELMO.

20 Q. Do you know, did you perhaps hear, whether Mr. Sulejman Tihic was

21 in any way involved in this operation of the transfer of weapons near or

22 at the Sarajevo brewery warehouse?

23 A. As far as I know, he was not involved in this operation.

24 Q. After the operation was completed, did you in any way notify Mr.

25 Sulejman Tihic about the event?

Page 8571

1 A. I don't think so.

2 Q. So in other words, Mr. Tihic does not know about the transfer of

3 weapons from the truck that had broken down in Samac --

4 MR. WEINER: I would object to that, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

6 MR. WEINER: Counsel is asking this witness about the knowledge of

7 Sulejman Tihic. Sulejman Tihic could have heard about this incident from

8 anyone involved or from anyone who was told by anyone involved about the

9 incident therefore he would have knowledge. The fact that this person

10 didn't tell Sulejman Tihic doesn't mean he has knowledge about it. He

11 can't answer for Sulejman Tihic.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pisarevic. The objection is sustained.

13 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. So Mr. Tihic never learned from you about the transfer of weapons?

15 A. I didn't tell him about that.

16 Q. Was Mr. Izet Izetbegovic the vice-president of the SDA, the town

17 board, involved in any way in this operation?

18 A. I think that we agreed before that Mr. Izet Izetbegovic held this

19 post or not.

20 Q. Well, it's immaterial now.

21 A. He was not notified. I mean, I did not notify him.

22 Q. Could you please list all the persons that took part in the

23 transfer.

24 A. I don't remember all the names. Could I perhaps do it some other

25 time, later on?

Page 8572

1 Q. Do you remember any names at all?

2 A. I remember myself. In the meantime, there was a war, and I forgot

3 a lot of things.

4 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, you were also a member of the executive board of

5 the town board of the SDA for Bosanski Samac, and you were the president

6 of the safety and security commission?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You took part in the work of the party; is that correct?

9 A. Yes, but not regularly.

10 Q. Can we agree, and do you indeed have any information about the

11 fact that the SDA in the town of Samac carried out certain activities

12 aimed at gathering some funds for the operation of the party?

13 A. No.

14 Q. So you claim that the SDA in Samac did not have an action in which

15 it collected voluntary contributions from Muslim citizens in Samac?

16 A. Yes, it did conduct such an action, such a campaign.

17 Q. Could you tell me, what were the results of the campaign?

18 A. Positive. They were positive. They were satisfactory.

19 Q. Since you were such a high-ranking official in the party --

20 MR. WEINER: I object to that.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: What is it?

22 MR. WEINER: I'll let him finish the question, but "since you were

23 such a high-a ranking official in the party," there's been no evidence of

24 that.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Let the witness answer. Let counsel complete the

Page 8573

1 question and then the witness can answer.

2 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Did you, and in what way, take part in the making of the decisions

4 on how the funds would be used, the funds that were at the disposal of the

5 party?

6 A. Mr. Pisarevic, we have to define quite clearly what funds we're

7 talking about. The funds that were gathered or some other funds? Because

8 we're wasting time here.

9 Q. My question was about the funds of the town board of the SDA in

10 Bosanski Samac. I asked you about the voluntary contributions campaign

11 for another reason. Now I'm asking you: Did you, as, in my opinion, a

12 high-ranking official in the party, because you were a member of the

13 executive board and you were the president of the Safety and Security

14 Commission, so did you take part in the decision-making process about the

15 way in which the funds that the party had would be spent? I hope that now

16 you understand my question.

17 A. The only thing that I understand is that there were no rules in

18 the Party of Democratic Action that would determine who defined who a

19 high-ranking official in the party would be. So I don't know whether I

20 was a high-ranking official, a lower-ranking official. There were no

21 ranks. There were no rules indicating who a high-ranking official in the

22 party would be.

23 Q. Mr. Fitozovic, did you take part at all in the decision-making

24 process about the way in which the funds at the disposal of the SDA party

25 were used?

Page 8574

1 A. No, Mr. Pisarevic.

2 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

3 Your Honours, I believe our time is up.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. How much more time do you need for

5 cross-examination?

6 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honour, three or four

7 hours.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: No. You've taken one and a half hours already.

9 Unless you are cross-examining on behalf of everybody. You've taken one

10 and a half hours already.

11 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in light of

12 everything that this witness has said and everything that he hasn't said,

13 this is the time that I require.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: No. We have to cut down on that. You have to cut

15 down on that. And one way of cutting down is you should not repeat the

16 examination-in-chief, for instance, because I observed that that is always

17 done, and that takes double the time.

18 Yes, Mr. Lukic.

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would merely like to point to the

20 fact that in the pre-trial brief, the Prosecution indicated that it would

21 be questioning this witness for three to four hours, and the Prosecution

22 also indicated that the questioning today would last about 45 minutes, yet

23 it lasted about an hour and a half. And the Prosecution questioned this

24 witness for three days, and this witness is of such importance that we

25 cannot really limit our examination in any way. Mr. Pisarevic, of course,

Page 8575

1 asked some of the questions that I intend to ask, but I can inform the

2 Trial Chamber that I plan to conduct my cross-examination for an hour to

3 two hours. But I cannot be as clear in my statement because I don't know

4 what questions that I intended to ask Mr. Pisarevic may have -- may ask

5 tomorrow. But I believe that my cross-examination would end within an

6 hour and a half. I will not be repeating all the questions that Mr.

7 Pisarevic will ask, but I will probably cover some of the same topics.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic?

9 MR. PANTELIC: Well, Your Honour, of course I will try to reduce

10 the time according to the questions and the area which will be probably

11 covered by my colleagues, friends. So I will do really my best to reduce

12 the time. I already produced and gave to my learned friend from the

13 Prosecution certain documents. So depending on the way how this witness

14 will respond, it will be very short questions, very simple. We have five

15 or six copies, I mean not more than ten minutes it will be for these

16 papers. And about the other questions and areas, roughly saying one

17 hour. But even less. Even less, according to --

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Depending on the other questions from the

19 other colleagues.

20 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Thank you.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I just wanted to respond to Mr. Lukic when he

22 was talking about the length of time the Prosecution takes. Of course the

23 Prosecution takes longer because the Prosecution has to adduce evidence to

24 cover liability of each and every accused. Yes. That is understood.

25 Whereas each accused has got his own defence.

Page 8576

1 MR. WEINER: Your Honour.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

3 MR. WEINER: Just two very brief points. One is: When this

4 witness is taken out could the Registry ask the people who transport the

5 witness back and forth to the hotel to bring him in about 25 minutes

6 earlier so I can go through all these documents that were given to me this

7 afternoon? Instead -- I think they usually bring him here about let's say

8 2.00, if they could bring him here maybe 20 minutes to 2.00.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Who does that?

10 MR. WEINER: The transporting group from the Victims and

11 Witnesses. When the usher brings this witness out, if he could ask the

12 transporting people to bring him here 20 minutes to 2.00 tomorrow so I can

13 go through these documents and he will still have about 10 minutes to

14 relax before he goes back on the stand for the day.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Trial Chamber would request that that be

16 done to assist the Prosecution to deal with the documents that have just

17 been handed to the Prosecution I think today.

18 MR. WEINER: Yes.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Regarding this witness.

20 MR. WEINER: And the -- I was just going to say, the other thing

21 is: I know I've gone over the time. I thought I'd only have him on for a

22 day and a half. But I concede this is a significant witness and being a

23 significant witness not only for the Prosecution, it does affect the

24 Defence. So I wouldn't object if he wants to take the extra time, but I

25 just ask that they don't ask the same questions over and over and just

Page 8577

1 repeat direct. I would not object to them taking what time that's

2 necessary because it is a significant witness and I'd worry about an

3 appellate issue if we ever get to that.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Of course the Trial Chamber is aware that they have

5 the right to cross-examine. It's just that they should avoid repeating

6 the same questions and repeating examination-in-chief answers. All right.

7 We shall adjourn -- I think the Registry has something to say.

8 THE REGISTRAR: I apologise, Your Honours. If I may just

9 re-explain to the Prosecution that the message cannot be passed to the

10 transport people of the Victims and Witnesses. They have been informed

11 that they have to make the request tomorrow morning to Simo the chief of

12 the section of Victims and Witnesses, and that's how it has to be

13 arranged. Thank you.

14 MR. WEINER: Thank you very much. I will do that in the morning,

15 then. Thank you.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: The Court will rise and continue tomorrow at 1415

17 hours.

18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.05 p.m.,

19 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 20th day of

20 May 2002, at 2.15 p.m.