Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8993

1 Thursday, 6 June 2002

2 [Closed session]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 8994












12 Pages 8994-8997 redacted closed session














Page 8998

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 --- Break taken at 9.22 a.m.

12 --- On resuming at 9.39 a.m.

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [Open session]

22 JUDGE MUMBA: I just want to correct the transcript. I said

23 information of threats per se are not uncommon.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the witness please be brought in?

25 [The witness entered court]

Page 8999

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the witness make the solemn declaration?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning, and please sit down.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Di Fazio?

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, if Your Honours please.

10 Examined by Mr. Di Fazio:

11 Q. Mr. Todorovic, can you tell the Chamber your full name and your

12 date of birth, please?

13 A. Yes. I was born on 29 December, 1957, in Bosanski Samac.

14 Q. And what is your ethnic background?

15 A. I'm Serb.

16 Q. Can you tell the Chamber of your education, how far you got with

17 your schooling?

18 A. After completing primary school, I completed the secondary school

19 of electrical engineering and then the electrical engineering college in

20 Sarajevo.

21 Q. And when did you complete your studies?

22 A. I completed my studies in 1986.

23 Q. Did you ever work in Bosanski Samac?

24 A. Yes, I did. I worked at the wicker furniture factory that was

25 called TPN Samac.

Page 9000

1 Q. When did you start working there?

2 A. I started working there on the 27th of January, 1987.

3 Q. Did you work there right up until the events of April, 1992?

4 A. Yes. I worked there until April 17th, 1992.

5 Q. What position did you achieve at the wicker factory?

6 A. I achieved the position of the general director of this company.

7 Q. About a year before April, 1992, did the company have any sort of

8 financial difficulties?

9 A. Yes, it did.

10 Q. Did it enter into bankruptcy?

11 A. Yes. Its accounts were blocked and after the strikes, the workers

12 appointed me for the general manager, and then after the decision of the

13 upper court in Bijeljina, I was appointed the receiver.

14 Q. Do you know a gentleman named Milan Simic?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did he have any role to play in the commercial consequences of the

17 bankruptcy?

18 A. When I was appointed the receiver, the bankruptcy council

19 appointed an external expert in economy and Milan Simic, as a successful

20 economist, was doing this work for me.

21 Q. Okay. Did you perform military service in the former Yugoslavia?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. When was that and where was that?

24 A. I performed military service in 1984 in Kiseljak, by Sarajevo.

25 Q. Did you specialize in any particular aspect of the military arts?

Page 9001

1 A. No. I was a regular soldier in an artillery unit. I did not have

2 a rank.

3 Q. Do you still have family living in the Bosanski Samac area?

4 A. Yes. My family lives in a village ten kilometres from Bosanski

5 Samac, the village is called Donja Slatina.

6 Q. And who lives there? Which family members?

7 A. My old and sick grandmother. My mother who is also sick and two

8 sisters.

9 Q. Where do the sisters work?

10 A. One sister works for a company called Mebos that manufactures

11 water heaters. And the other sister works at the Republic Customs

12 Administration in Samac.

13 Q. Now, I want to ask you about some of the personalities in this

14 case. Do you know Blagoje Simic?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. How long would you say that you've known him?

17 A. I've known him since four or five years from before the war, but

18 we were never close friends at that time. I just knew him.

19 JUDGE LINDHOLM: May I ask a question? Mr. Prosecutor, Di Fazio,

20 I would like to ask a question about the other members of the witness --

21 if my memory serves me right, he has a wife and children, and I would like

22 to ask he doesn't have to define the place where they are living more in

23 detail, but are they living outside the former Yugoslavia.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honour pleases, I will ask the question of

25 course, but my understanding, the witness will tell us anyway, but my

Page 9002

1 understanding is he's not married but I'll ask him and we'll see what the

2 situation is if Your Honour pleases.

3 Q. You heard his honour's question, what's your marital situation?

4 Are you currently married? Have you ever been married and do you have

5 kids -- children, rather?

6 A. I have never been officially married. I have no children but

7 there is a lady that I lived with, we are not married, but we are in

8 touch, we have been in touch for sometime, and she lives in Belgrade. She

9 does not live in the territory of the Republika Srpska.

10 Q. Thank you. While we are on this topic, does she -- everyone

11 understand that is you're currently serving your prison sentence, does she

12 maintain contact with you while you're still in custody?

13 A. Yes, she does. She is waiting for a Spanish visa to come and

14 visit me.

15 Q. All right. Now, we were -- I was asking you about the -- some of

16 the personalities and I was asking you about Mr. Blagoje Simic. You said

17 you've known him for five years. In what -- under what circumstances did

18 you meet him and under what circumstances did you associate with him in

19 those five years before April, 1992? Was it professional dealings? Were

20 you his patient, or political meetings, or simply in the cafes or how?

21 A. Well, just before the multi-party elections, I knew him but not

22 much, and we would just meet in different discos and in cafes. On the

23 2nd of August, I don't know if it was of 1990 or 1991, that was the time

24 when I was closer friends with him, but this lasted for a very short time

25 period.

Page 9003

1 Q. Thank you. Have a look around the room and see if you can

2 identify him. If you can, please let us know.

3 A. Yes, I can recognise him. He's sitting in the middle. He has a

4 goatee.

5 Q. Thank you. Can the record indicate that Mr. Todorovic has

6 successfully identified Mr. Blagoje Simic?

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, yes, Mr. Pantelic?

8 MR. PANTELIC: Just small correction, Your Honours in transcript

9 maybe I misunderstood it, in transcript it says he has a goatee. In fact

10 the witness said my client has academic beard.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Academic beard?

12 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. This will be different from goatee beard, so

13 could my friend clarify it?

14 MR. DI FAZIO: I think an academic beard is a goatee.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: We will depend on the interpreter's -- please go

16 ahead, Mr. Di Fazio.


18 Q. Now, Miroslav Tadic, do you know him?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. How long have you known him, would you say?

21 A. I met Miroslav Tadic when I was in secondary school. He was a

22 teacher at that secondary school and that's where I met him. Afterwards,

23 I would see him around but we were never close friends, but I knew him, I

24 just knew him.

25 Q. And when you say after you would see him around, do you mean he

Page 9004

1 was just an acquaintance whom you might nod to in the street but you

2 didn't socialise? Can you give us any more idea of your relationship with

3 him?

4 A. Yes, we didn't socialise. We would greet each other on the street

5 if we met, but we met infrequently because I was in college and my

6 interests were different, but sometimes when I would meet him we would

7 greet, but there was nothing special about it.

8 Q. Okay. Did he have a nickname?

9 A. Yes. His nickname was "Brko."

10 Q. Again can you go through the same exercise, look around the room,

11 see if you can identify him, and if you can, please let us know.

12 A. Yes, I can see him. He has a mustache, a grey -- grey hair and

13 he's wearing glasses.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the record indicate that the witness identified

16 Mr. Tadic?


18 MR. DI FAZIO: Thanks.

19 Q. Now, Simo Zaric, do you know him?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Again, how long have you known him?

22 A. I have known him for about ten years. I had heard of him before

23 and I knew him by sight but I didn't socialise with him up until a year or

24 two before the war. One of his friends was the commercial manager in my

25 factory and we would greet each other a couple of times, so I knew of him.

Page 9005

1 Q. Who was the friend you're talking about? What's the name of the

2 person?

3 A. Anto Ivanovic, nicknamed "Tosa."

4 Q. Yes. Thank you. Can you look around the room and see if you can

5 identify him, please?

6 A. Yes, I see him.

7 Q. Okay. Just give us a brief description so that we can be sure

8 that you've correctly identified him.

9 A. He is grey haired, he has glasses, he has a light blue shirt and a

10 dark blue jacket on.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Could the record indicate that Mr. Todorovic

12 has identified Mr. Simo Zaric?



15 Q. From everything that you ever told us so far, it appears that you

16 had no experience up until April of 1992 in any form of police matters or

17 security matters. Is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Ever trained as a policeman?

20 A. No, never.

21 Q. Ever applied for a job as a policeman?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Have you ever had any particular interest, even as a hobby, in

24 police matters?

25 A. No, never.

Page 9006

1 Q. Did you ever tell people that you were particularly skilled or

2 qualified in police matters, acting as a policeman, that sort of thing?

3 A. I think I did not.

4 Q. I want to ask you about the political backgrounds of the men that

5 I've asked you about so far. Mr. Blagoje Simic, was he a member of any

6 particular political party?

7 A. As far as I know, he was a member of the Serbian Democratic

8 Party. From 1990 or 1991, since -- from the moment it was founded.

9 Q. Had you been aware of his being a member of any other political

10 party before that, or is that all you know?

11 A. As far as I know, he was only in that party. I have no knowledge

12 that he was in any other party.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, there is an error in the

14 transcript and I want it corrected if possible.


16 MR. DI FAZIO: Line ten on page 14, I heard the witness say from

17 the moment it was founded -- founded. In other words from its inception.

18 I'll ask the witness again.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: I think, yes, clarify that with the witness.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: I just want to make sure that the transcript is

21 correct.

22 Q. Mr. Todorovic, I understood you to say that Mr. Blagoje Simic was

23 a member of the Serbian democratic party from 1990 or 1991, since the time

24 it was founded. Is that what you said?

25 A. Yes. That is what I said. Maybe -- but to be precise, maybe not

Page 9007

1 from the first day it was founded. Maybe from the first, second or third

2 month of its inception.

3 Q. In any event, early on in its beginnings.

4 A. Yes, yes, from the beginning.

5 Q. Do you have any idea of the political background of Miroslav

6 Tadic?

7 A. As far as I know, that is, I did not know that Miroslav Tadic was

8 politically engaged.

9 Q. When you say you didn't know that he was politically engaged, what

10 precisely do you mean? That he wasn't an active politician of any sort or

11 something else?

12 A. I did not know that he was a member of any political party.

13 Q. Thank you. And what about Simo Zaric? Have you any idea of what

14 his political background was?

15 A. As far as I knew, he was a member of the League of Communists at

16 the time when that party existed. But prior to the multi-party elections,

17 that party was -- had the abbreviation of SDP. It was SDP of Bosnia and

18 Herzegovina but it was really the continuation of that previous party.

19 Q. When you say the previous party, what do you mean?

20 A. When saying "the previous party" I mean the League of Communists

21 for Yugoslavia which for 50 years was the only party in the former

22 Yugoslavia.

23 Q. I want to ask you about your political background. First of all,

24 can you tell us if you were ever a member of the League of Communists?

25 A. No. I was never a member of the League of Communists.

Page 9008

1 Q. And what was your view about the Communist Party and your view

2 about communism generally?

3 A. Well, I had a negative attitude, because with --

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Di Fazio is that relevant?

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Only because of subsequent testimony that the

6 witness will give. I don't intend to dwell on it by any means, I can deal

7 with it in one answer, that's all. I'm not going to investigate the

8 political background of all these people for any other purpose --

9 JUDGE MUMBA: I don't want us to go into the verse and chapter of

10 communism.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: I certainly don't want to do that either, if Your

12 Honours please, I'll be as brief as I can.

13 Q. You just heard the exchange between myself and the Chamber. I

14 want to be brief about this. Were you an anti-communist? Can you

15 answer -- you have to it have an oral answer so it can be recorded.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Was that fact known?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 A. Let me add, I was a passive anti-communist. I didn't sympathise

21 with that party, and I was an anti-communist.

22 Q. What I'm more interested in was that fact, your view about that,

23 known at least amongst your circle of friends and people who knew you?

24 A. Yes, yes. It certainly was known.

25 Q. Do you know a gentleman named Mico Ivanovic, also known as Mijak?

Page 9009

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In 1990 or 1991, what position did he hold?

3 A. You mean in the political sense?

4 Q. Yes, yes, sorry.

5 A. If I recollect well, he was one of the municipal vice-presidents

6 of the Serbian Democratic -- SDS, Serb Democratic Party.

7 Q. Thank you. Now, did you ever join the Serb Democratic Party?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. When was that?

10 A. That was on the 2nd of August. My -- 1990 or 1991, I cannot

11 recollect, 1990 or 1991.

12 Q. Thank you. How did you come to join the SDS?

13 A. When my friends left from my celebration, I went to the cultural

14 hall in the village and when I enter that conference hall, they proposed

15 me as the President of that local council of SDS.

16 Q. I take it from your answer, this particular day, the 2nd of

17 August, you were having some sort of private function and then you went

18 down to this conference hall where the SDS conference was taking place?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, who selected you or nominated you for a position in the SDS?

21 A. Some of the inhabitants of that village. They said that I was

22 educated, an anti-communist and they immediately asked me to be the

23 President of that local board. I didn't want -- I didn't dare turn them

24 down, and then I accepted this position.

25 Q. Thank you. I want to now turn from this issue to ask you to

Page 9010

1 provide the Chamber with a broad outline of the last ten years or so, we

2 will be returning to a lot of these topics later, but it's generally

3 agreed in this case that you were appointed police chief. Can you recall

4 just the date that that occurred?

5 A. I was appointed on the 28th or 29th of March, 1992.

6 Q. And did you ever gain membership of subsequently of a body called

7 a "Crisis Staff"?

8 A. Yes, later.

9 Q. When was that?

10 A. Well, that was between the 15th and the 17th of April. Somewhere

11 between these two days, the 15th or the 17th of April.

12 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Mr. Di Fazio, I have a question here. When you

13 asked when the witness was appointed police chief, I would ask who did he

14 replace and for what reason?

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Very well. I'll clarify that issue, if Your

16 Honour pleases.

17 Q. Mr. Todorovic, in March of 1992, were Serbs in Bosanski Samac in

18 the process of setting up parallel organs of state, parallel to the

19 already-existing organs?

20 MR. PANTELIC: Objection, Your Honour, [Interpretation] I believe

21 that this witness is not a lawyer and that this language of the Prosecutor

22 cannot be used as such and that the question has to be rephrased, and the

23 witness doesn't know what the relationship between the various bodies and

24 what they are, and it would require some assumptions of this witness, and

25 this is the basis of my objection.

Page 9011

1 JUDGE MUMBA: The objection is overruled. The Trial Chamber

2 doesn't see anything wrong with this question because these are matters

3 within the knowledge of the witness. The Prosecution will continue.


5 Q. My question was: About that time that you were appointed police

6 chief, were Serbs in Bosanski Samac in the process of setting up parallel

7 organs of state, for example, police forces and so on?

8 A. At the assembly of the Serb people on the 28th of February, the

9 municipality -- Serb Municipality of Bosanski Samac and Pelagicevo was in

10 the process of being founded.

11 Q. When you were appointed as police chief, was that as, to put it

12 broadly speaking and it's only broadly speaking, a Serbian police chief?

13 A. I believe yes.

14 Q. And at the time that you were appointed to this position, was

15 there already a police chief operating and carrying out his job and his

16 functions? I think --

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And was that part of the municipality that had existed for some --

19 for years in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

20 A. Yes.

21 JUDGE LINDHOLM: There were two.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, parallel organisations, parallel developments,

23 if Your Honour pleases.

24 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Thank you.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll be returning to this topic later, if Your

Page 9012

1 Honour pleases.

2 Q. Now, we were talking about your membership of the Crisis Staff.

3 Did that continue essentially throughout 1992?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. At one point, in 1992, did the Crisis Staff change its name?

6 A. Yes. It changed its name but that was later. I don't know the

7 exact date of that.

8 Q. Did it change its name to something called a "War Presidency"?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Would you please look at this document that I produce to you?

11 MR. DI FAZIO: I've got copies of the original and translations

12 for the Court. And if Your Honours please, Defence counsel will know of

13 this document as C69 in the list of exhibits. Do Your Honours have copies

14 now?

15 Q. Mr. Todorovic, I know you don't read too well because of your eye

16 sight, and this document is hard to read, so you get down and have a --

17 closely and look at it if need be, okay? Can you see it? I don't expect

18 you read all of this, but I'll take you through it and it's in paragraph

19 1, it's paragraph 168 that I'm interested in, not 169, which is also on

20 the same page. So let's look at 168. It's entitled "Decision on the

21 formation of War Presidencies in municipalities in times of war. " Do you

22 see that?

23 A. Yes, I do, yes.

24 Q. And it then goes on to set out the circumstances in which War

25 Presidencies shall be formed and I think you can see that in Article 1.

Page 9013

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic?

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] But for the defendant, I would like to

3 have the B/C/S version placed on the ELMO, for the benefit of the

4 defendants.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: I may have an extra copy.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, an extra copy can be put on the ELMO.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: We did provide five to the Chamber.

8 THE REGISTRAR: I received four B/C/S versions, three for the

9 Chamber, I gave one to the LO, the registry doesn't have one, and --

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Perhaps mine can be used. I won't be dwelling long

11 on this document, I might add.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You can proceed, Mr. Di Fazio.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, if Your Honours please.

14 Q. Really, Mr. Todorovic, the article I'm interested in is Article 5.

15 Have a look at that.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. That says, "War Presidencies shall be formed within 15 days of the

18 decision, of this decision, and on that day, Crisis Staffs cease to

19 operate." Do you see that?

20 A. I do.

21 Q. Is that basically what happened in Bosanski Samac?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Is it the case that people who were essentially, or rather, the

24 Crisis Staff continued with the same people but just changed its name,

25 instead of being a Crisis Staff it became a War Presidency?

Page 9014

1 A. Yes. Only the name was changed but the people remained the same.

2 Q. Thank you. It's signed by apparently by Dr. Radovan Karadzic. Do

3 you see that?

4 A. Yes. I do see the name Radovan Karadzic, but I do not see the

5 signature.

6 Q. Thank you. And it's dated the 31st of May, 1992. How does that

7 accord with your memory? Did the Crisis Staff change its name to a War

8 Presidency around June? Would that be right? Or do you think it was

9 later?

10 A. I don't remember exactly the date when this -- the change

11 occurred, but I know that later, it was called a War Presidency, but I

12 cannot recall the exact date.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I produce the document into

14 evidence.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Any objection from the Defence? I see that there is

16 none. Can we have the number, please, from the registry?

17 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. The English version is P72.

18 And the B/C/S will be P72 ter. Thank you.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I've finished with the document.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic?

21 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honours, just a small correction maybe,

22 as I said, maybe I'm wrong but in Article 2 of this decision, in B/C/S

23 language, it says, the Article 2 reads as follows: [Interpretation] the

24 War Presidency shall consist of the trustee of the republic and as a rule,

25 and this as a rule, was translated in the English text as "generally, and

Page 9015

1 generally" and I'm objecting this as a matter of principle because I

2 believe that "generally" does not correspond to the spirit of this

3 article, which here contains this instead of "generally" "as a rule."

4 "As a rule" might be more appropriate in that sense in Article 2

5 of that particular decision, which is something different than

6 "generally."

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Your Honours want a response from me on that?

8 JUDGE MUMBA: If any.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: I don't think I can respond.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Because the Trial Chamber can simply ask for --

11 MR. DI FAZIO: It's a question of translation.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, from the translation unit.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: If --

14 JUDGE MUMBA: The Trial Chamber will simply ask from the

15 translation unit.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: On the basis of what Mr. Pantelic has said.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, thank you.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: But the Trial Chamber will accept the translation

20 from the translation unit of the Tribunal.


22 Q. And just while I'm on this topic of the change of name I'd like to

23 produce another document to the witness which I now do, Defence counsel

24 will know this document as C78.

25 MR. PANTELIC: Excuse me, Your Honours, we have C78 part 2. Maybe

Page 9016

1 our friends from Prosecution can indicate whether we are going to speak

2 about part 1 C78 or part 2? Because I don't see in my --

3 MR. DI FAZIO: No, there is only one document, C78, and one

4 document only, C78, part 2 is something to do with the way my case

5 manager organised the file but we are only dealing with C78.

6 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.


8 Q. Have you had a chance to look at that document, Mr. Todorovic?

9 A. I'm still looking at it.

10 Q. Now, can I just ask you, that --

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. This appears to be what it says, decision on renaming the

13 municipal Crisis Staff, suggesting that it's going to be renamed the War

14 Presidency on the date of this decision, which is the 21st of July, 1992.

15 Do you recall that change in name from Crisis Staff to War Presidency

16 being adopted in this way?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you. And it's apparently signed by Dr. Blagoje Simic.

19 However, would you look at the signature on the document?

20 A. I'm not a handwriting specialist but I don't believe that this is

21 the signature of Blagoje Simic, concretely this example here.

22 Q. Yes. I have no quarrel with that.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I seek to tender the

24 document into evidence.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Any objection?

Page 9017

1 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, in principle, we don't have

2 objections. These are the decisions, everything is clear, but just for

3 the sake of justice, we kindly ask for the time being that these documents

4 would be with ID numbers so that we can check the English translation and

5 the spirit of this translation in accordance with the law, with the law

6 language. I have a great sympathy and I appreciate the translation unit

7 people, but still, because we are speaking about the legal documents, we

8 would like to check again some -- because otherwise, one point or comment

9 or one word can have different meanings in terms of legal language.

10 So within the testimony of this witness, we shall give our answer and it

11 can be admitted. So as I said, I'm not objecting about the documents to

12 be tendered there is no problem with that but still some correction may

13 be -- could be made.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I make the application for

15 it to be fully produced into evidence as a full exhibit. Defence have had

16 this documentation for years now, I think. Furthermore, the matter that

17 Mr. Pantelic raised is not a matter for refusing to admit the document

18 into evidence. It's a matter of linguistics and translation and that can

19 be sorted out at a later stage, if need be. Indeed, he can raise it with

20 the witness if he has any quibble or quarrel with the way things are

21 translated. So on that basis I seek the full admission into evidence.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, the document will be admitted into evidence and

23 the Trial Chamber accepts the translation from the translation unit of the

24 Tribunal. Can we have the number, please?

25 THE REGISTRAR: It will be P73 and P73 ter, Your Honours.

Page 9018

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Can we proceed?

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

3 Q. Did you remain on the War Presidency throughout 1993, 1994, 1995?

4 A. I think until late 1994 or early 1995. I'm not sure.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we take our break?

6 MR. DI FAZIO: Sorry, I didn't realise.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: We will take our break now and resume our

8 proceedings at 11.00.

9 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

10 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, the Prosecution can continue.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. If Your Honours please, yesterday

13 apparently an issue was raised regarding the fifth amended indictment.

14 Its translation. My case manager tells me it's been translated and been

15 served so that matter has been rectified.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Very well. I see Mr. Lukic.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to raise a

18 short issue and I would like for just for a closed session -- private

19 session because of the question that I'm going to be asking. All I need

20 is a private session, Your Honour.

21 [Private session]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 9019












12 Page 9019 redacted private session














Page 9020

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [Open session]

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, we are now in open session.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.

21 Q. I was asking you about your appointment to various positions in

22 Bosanski Samac throughout the mid-1990s. Did you ever receive an

23 appointment to the executive board?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. When was that?

Page 9021

1 A. When I was appointed as chief, I was automatically, because of my

2 position, also -- I also became a member of the executive board.

3 Q. What about in later years, around 1995 or 1996? Did you ever

4 receive an appointment then?

5 A. In 1995, I was appointed the vice-president of the executive

6 board. That was my position then.

7 Q. Thank you, yes. Now, when you were appointed to that position,

8 did you receive the support, political support, of anyone?

9 A. I received the support of the municipal board members that were

10 members of the assembly of Bosanski Samac.

11 Q. Did that include Mr. Blagoje Simic?

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, in order to clarify we would like to

14 see about which time period we are speaking now. If it's 1995, it's

15 irrelevant for this case. If something, the other -- I'm speaking about

16 the executive board, membership in executive board. If the other time

17 period is in question, then I kindly ask my friend to clarify that,

18 because otherwise, I don't see the sense of membership in 1995. It's

19 beyond the indictment.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Prosecution I'm sure is aware of that and

21 they will clarify the period.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: The indictment isn't it a straitjacket. I

23 understand what the Chamber has said to us regarding leading evidence

24 beyond the parameters of the indictment. I understand that perfectly well

25 but the nature of the relationship between Mr. Todorovic and these

Page 9022

1 defendants is of -- is crucial, and there may be matters that occur

2 beyond -- outside of the period of the indictment, before the period of

3 the indictment and subsequently, that shed light, shed light, on the

4 nature of the relationship between them. That's all that I'm trying to --

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, that is accepted by the Trial Chamber because,

6 of course, we are all aware that the building up of tensions started prior

7 to 1992 and what you have submitted may well be true. So only to that

8 extent.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, also if Your Honours please, continued support

10 of this witness by defendants is also a matter that may -- that is

11 relevant.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: In these proceedings.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: In these proceedings for the Chamber to assess

14 events that occur earlier, prior to that continued support. So that's the

15 reason.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well, then, Mr. Di Fazio, you can continue.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

18 Q. In June of 1997, did you go anywhere, leave Bosanski Samac?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What -- where did you go?

21 A. I went to Serbia, because I had some private business with a

22 private company in Serbia.

23 Q. At the time, were you aware of an indictment having been issued

24 against you by this Tribunal?

25 A. Yes.

Page 9023

1 Q. When did you first become aware of that?

2 A. End of -- at the end of 1995, this was broadcast on the television

3 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the indictment was publicly broadcast, and that's

4 when I found out.

5 Q. It was a matter of common knowledge in Bosanski Samac and all your

6 colleagues knew of the fact that you'd been indicted?

7 A. Yes. Most people knew.

8 Q. Thank you. Did that fact have anything to do with your going to

9 Serbia, apart from -- apart from your business commitments? Were you

10 concerned about avoiding arrest, in other words?

11 A. Yes. Among other things, that fact also contributed to me going.

12 Q. In September of 1998, were you in effect, kidnapped or apprehended

13 by people?

14 A. Yes. In the night of 26 of September, 1998, I was kidnapped by a

15 criminal group from Serbia.

16 Q. Were you eventually arrested in Bosnia by SFOR?

17 A. Yes. This group transferred me in a passenger vehicle. They

18 illegally took me over Bosnia [as interpreted] in a boat, and about ten

19 minutes later, and the phone, or through a radio transmitter, they called

20 NATO troops and a helicopter came and this helicopter then took me to the

21 NATO base in Tuzla.

22 Q. And were you subsequently brought to The Hague and were you

23 arraigned here on the 30th of September?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Following that, was there some protracted legal argument between

Page 9024

1 your Defence counsel and the Prosecution regarding all sorts of matters,

2 including the circumstances under which you'd been arrested?

3 A. Yes. There was a discussion going on about the legality of my

4 kidnapping or arrest.

5 Q. I don't want to go into the details of that. I'm not interested

6 in that I just want to know whether that occurred. Did that occur?

7 A. Yes, it occurred.

8 Q. In subsequently, did you enter a plea of guilty to a charge of

9 persecutions?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Was that pursuant to a plea agreement or following upon you

12 entering into a plea agreement with the OTP?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. As part of that agreement, did you agree to cooperate with the

15 OTP?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. In April and May of last year, did your lawyers make submissions

18 on penalty to a Chamber of this Tribunal, following your plea of guilty?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And on the 31st of July, last year, were you sentenced to ten

21 years' imprisonment?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And are you now currently serving that sentence in a European

24 country?

25 A. Yes.

Page 9025

1 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I want to refer to the

2 sentencing judgement.


4 MR. DI FAZIO: I believe you have copies.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, we do.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. And I have a B/C/S copy that I'd like to

7 produce to the witness. I don't -- just on the question of producing this

8 into evidence, do you want me to produce it into evidence? It's a matter

9 of course of public record, I suppose.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Trial Chamber takes judicial notice.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: So I don't need to produce it into evidence. Thank

12 you.

13 Q. Now, Mr. Todorovic, I think you are familiar with this document,

14 are you not?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You've read it and I think recently reread it?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Would you go to paragraph 3, please? In the section dealing with

19 introduction and procedural history and read it?

20 A. Page 2?

21 Q. Sorry, you'll find the whole judgement has got paragraphs and I'll

22 be referring from now on to paragraphs, and you'll find that at least in

23 the -- after the index, the very first page of the judgement starts off

24 with paragraph 1, 2, 3 and so on. And I'm referring to paragraph 3.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lazarevic.

Page 9026

1 MR. LAZAREVIC: For the benefit of our clients it could be placed

2 on the ELMO, please.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. And Mr. Di Fazio, I was wondering what you

4 intend to do. Is it necessary to read the paragraphs? Because they are

5 already contained here. Is it not just sufficient to refer to them? And

6 raise questions on them, if that's what you want to do with the witness.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: I think that's the way I'll deal with it. I don't

8 want him to read it into the record.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: That's what I'm wondering about.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: And then I'll take what I need out of each

11 paragraph.

12 Mr. Usher, do you have the B/C/S? May I approach the witness

13 could I can indicate the paragraph?

14 JUDGE MUMBA: The paragraph, yes.


16 Q. I think you have it now, paragraph 3.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Just have a quick read of it, reacquaint yourself with it. You --

19 that gives a summary of the charges that you were faced -- you were faced

20 with when you first came, does it not?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, if you skip to paragraph 5, please? That indicates that on

23 the 13th of December, 2000, you entered a plea of guilty to count 1 on the

24 indictment against you, and the Prosecution indicated it would withdraw

25 other counts? Do you see that?

Page 9027

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you agree with that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, look at paragraph 9 of the judgement. Paragraph 9 sets out

5 the factual basis of your guilty plea, does it not?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And it lists all sorts of things that you engaged in, including

8 the beating and murder of a man called Anto Brandic, various beatings,

9 various sexual offences and so on. Do you see that?

10 A. Yes, I see that.

11 Q. And furthermore, that you participated in the unlawful detention,

12 cruel inhumane treatment of Bosnian Croats and Muslims and other details?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you agree with that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you. Also in paragraph 10, it refers to your agreement to

17 provide full cooperation with the Prosecution. You agree with that

18 factual assertion there?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Finally -- not finally, further, paragraph 11, highlights that as

21 part of the -- withdraw that. Further, paragraph 11 highlights that there

22 are -- a recommendation was made regarding sentence and a range of

23 sentence. Do you agree with that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. The judgement again returns to the factual basis in paragraph 12,

Page 9028

1 and it indicates more agreed facts by which the crime of persecution was

2 perpetrated, including forcible takeover by Serb forces of various towns,

3 murder, sexual assaults, repeated beatings, unlawful detention,

4 confinement of non-Serbs, cruel, inhumane treatment of non-Serbs,

5 including beatings, torture, forced labour, coercion into false -- signing

6 false statements, deportation, issuance of orders and directives violating

7 the rights of non-Serb civilians and so on. Do you agree with that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can I ask you now to go towards the end of the judgement, please?

10 Perhaps I should say about midway through? In fact the paragraph I want

11 you to look at is paragraphs 34 to 37. The judgement again refers to

12 forcible takeover of the municipality of Bosanski Samac. Do you agree

13 with that?

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 Q. The judgement again goes into more detail regarding murder, sexual

16 assaults, repeated beatings. Have you seen those paragraphs and do you

17 agree with those?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And I would ask you to continue looking through paragraphs 41, 42,

20 43, 44, 45, 46, 47. Again, paragraph 41 details various beatings that you

21 engaged in? Do you agree with that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. 41 also -- sorry, 42 also refers to unlawful detention, arrest and

24 so on, of Croats and Muslims. You agree with that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 9029

1 Q. 43 refers to cruel, inhumane treatment, non-Serb civilians,

2 beatings, torture, forced labour, confinement, do you agree with all of

3 that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And I don't need to -- you've seen paragraph 44 as well? You

6 agree with the matters set out there?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. 46 -- sorry, 47 refers to plunder and looting. Do you agree with

9 all the allegations there, the factual matters there?

10 A. I agree but I did not personally participate in the lootings. It

11 was the policemen. I just did not stop them from doing it, but other than

12 that, I agree.

13 Q. Very well. Thank you. I'm done with the judgement.

14 Now, I want to turn to an issue that I've briefly touched upon and

15 that is your appointment as police chief. First of all, when were you

16 actually appointed police chief?

17 A. On the 28th of March, 1992.

18 Q. About a month before, had you been to any other meeting?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What meeting was that?

21 A. This was the meeting where the Serb Municipality of Bosanski Samac

22 and Pelagicevo was proclaimed.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the witness be shown P11?

25 JUDGE MUMBA: P what?

Page 9030

1 MR. DI FAZIO: P11. May I see it before it's handed to the

2 witness?

3 Q. Now, just -- I'd like you to have a read of that document,

4 please.

5 A. Of the whole document?

6 Q. Well, just reacquaint yourself, just read through it quickly and

7 just see what it's all about first of all.

8 A. All right.

9 Q. You don't have to read it in detail.

10 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Di Fazio, what is the title of P11 is that we

11 know what it is too.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. I understand Your Honour's concern. I think

13 it should be called "Decision on the establishment of the Serbian

14 municipality of Bosanski Samac," dated 29th of February, 1992.

15 Q. Now, is that document referring to the meeting you've just told us

16 about?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Where did that meeting take place? I'm talking about the meeting,

19 this document refers to, the one on the 29th of February, 1992.

20 A. This meeting took place in the large hall of the memorial centre

21 in Samac.

22 Q. Did you attend?

23 A. Yes, I did.

24 Q. Did Dr. Blagoje Simic attend?

25 A. Yes.

Page 9031

1 Q. Did any of the other defendants attend? I mean Mr. Tadic and

2 Mr. Simo Zaric. If you don't know, say so, but if you do know that they

3 attended, let us know.

4 A. I do not recollect. I know that Mr. Simic was there but I don't

5 recall about the other two.

6 Q. And what about Milan Simic? Can you tell us if he was there?

7 A. Milan Simic was not there at the time.

8 Q. Look at Article 5, please. That says that this new assembly of

9 Serbian people of Bosanski Samac and Pelagicevo will consist of members,

10 board members, of the Serbian Democratic Party or SDS. And goes on to say

11 that members of other boards of Serbian people may also become members by

12 signing a statement announcing their membership in the assembly. Do you

13 remember that decision being taken?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. It is signed by Ilija Ristic, president of the assembly. Who is

16 he?

17 A. Ilija Ristic at the time was the president of that assembly.

18 Q. Was he -- where was he living?

19 A. In Samac.

20 Q. Was he a member of the SDS, as far as you're aware?

21 A. I think so.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: I've done with that document, Mr. Usher.

24 Q. How many people attended the meeting?

25 A. As far as I can remember, maybe approximately 100 people or more

Page 9032

1 than that.

2 Q. Was it publicly -- withdraw that question. Was the fact of the

3 meeting and its decision taking process and its decisions made publicly

4 known? Was it open for people to know and understand what had been

5 decided or was it a secret meeting?

6 A. As far as I know, it wasn't a secret meeting. It was generally

7 known, and it wasn't at all a secret meeting.

8 Q. Do you know if it was commented upon in the media?

9 A. I do not recall, but as far as I remember, it was a generally

10 known fact.

11 Q. Thank you. Now, I'd like you to turn to the meeting that took

12 place a month later, that is on the 29th or -- late February. Where did

13 that meeting take place?

14 A. I apologise. Up until now, we were speaking about the meeting on

15 the 28th of February. Are you now considering the meeting in March?

16 Q. Yes, I apologise to you. I misled you. I realise we were talking

17 about the meeting in February. I now want to direct your attention to the

18 meeting in late March?

19 JUDGE MUMBA: This is 1992, I take it?

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, 1992.

21 Q. My question is first of all where did the meeting take place?

22 A. That meeting was held in the village of Obudovac

23 Q. Did you attend?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. About how many people were there?

Page 9033

1 A. According to my assessment, 60, 70 people were present, maybe a

2 bit more.

3 Q. Were there SDS members there?

4 A. Yes. I believe members of the SDS and as far as I recall, maybe a

5 few people from other parties, but of Serb ethnicity.

6 Q. Can you tell us if -- what proportion of attending people who

7 attended were members of the SDS? Most of them? Just a few of them?

8 A. Well, the bigger part came from SDS.

9 Q. Was Blagoje Simic present?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Was Miroslav Tadic present?

12 A. I cannot recall of seeing Miroslav Tadic.

13 Q. At this meeting, did the issue of an appointment of a Serbian

14 police chief arise?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Tell the Chamber how it came about that the issue was first raised

17 and how it developed?

18 A. You are considering the raising the question of the appointment or

19 does it apply to the meeting?

20 Q. Well, you've told us the issue of the appointment of a police

21 chief arose at the meeting. Tell the Chamber how it arose at the meeting,

22 what was decided, how the matter was proceeded with, at the meeting.

23 A. First, at the meeting, were the municipal delegates of the four

24 municipalities were present, Pero Stevic was proposed as a police chief,

25 but later, some other assembly -- municipal assembly members refused that

Page 9034

1 candidate, and proposed me, and with a majority vote of the municipal

2 assembly members with a majority of their votes, I was appointed to the

3 post of police chief.

4 Q. Who proposed you, can you recall?

5 A. I cannot remember whether it was Ilija Ristic who proposed me or

6 Lazar Stanisic. I can not recall precisely who of the two.

7 Q. You said that there were delegates of the four municipalities.

8 Who were these delegates and which municipalities are you talking about?

9 Delegates from what? That's what I want to know. And from where.

10 A. They were legally elected municipal delegates, elected legally at

11 the earlier multi-party elections, who worked in the assemblies of or

12 Orasje, Gradacac, some Samac municipalities.

13 Q. So they were already members of the municipal assemblies that are

14 always existed in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

15 A. Yes. They were members of these legally formed assemblies, after

16 the first, regular, multi-party elections, held in Bosnia, I believe held

17 in the year 1991.

18 Q. Thank you. And they were all of Serb ethnicity, I take it?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you. And it was those people who voted eventually for your

21 appointment as police chief?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you subsequently receive any instructions as to how you should

24 go about organising yourself as police chief, what you should be doing,

25 any moves or measures that you should be taking?

Page 9035

1 A. The -- during the first few days, no. A few days later, I

2 received instructions to supply blue berets for the police, and with the

3 presence of the president of the municipal council, I did talk in the

4 village of Obudovac, to the reserve police force in that village.

5 Q. Were they all ethnic Serbs?

6 A. The majority were Serbs. Only the deputy chief police of the

7 reserve police force in the village of Obudovac was a Muslim.

8 Q. What was his name?

9 A. His nickname was "Caba" but I do not recall his exact name and

10 surname.

11 Q. I'll come to the blue berets, later but first of all the talk that

12 you gave, what was that about and what was your purpose in giving this

13 talk?

14 A. Well, prior to that meeting, President Mirko Jovanovic told me

15 that that police station, which I will be heading, will have its

16 headquarters in Obudovac, as well as the new Serb municipality which would

17 be set up there if things turned for the worse. And during that meeting

18 with these members of the police, which was attended by Mirko Jovanovic

19 also, he held a short speech and as far as I recall, he said that the

20 republican deputies in Sarajevo proclaimed the Republic of -- Serb

21 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. After that the autonomous region of

22 Bosnia was proclaimed. And in Samac, on the 26th, 27th of February, the

23 Serb Municipality of Samac and Pelagicevo, which was being founded, and

24 Stevan Todorovic was appointed for this region, for the police, and he

25 said, if people -- if the problem will not be resolved democratically,

Page 9036

1 politically, then you will be under the command of Stevan Todorovic, who

2 is the police chief in this area. That was approximately the content of

3 this.

4 Q. In effect, he was announcing you to the reserve police?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you. Did you make -- sorry, I'll withdraw that. Did you

7 make any practical arrangements for the possibility of you becoming the

8 new police chief? For example, recruitment, anything like that? Apart

9 from blue berets. I'll get to that later. But did you make any other

10 sort of practical arrangements?

11 A. In addition to purchasing these blue berets, I didn't undertake

12 any other practical measures.

13 Q. What about subordinates in the new Serb police force? Did you

14 make arrangements to appoint anyone to be your subordinate, interview

15 anyone, speak to anyone?

16 A. At that time, I didn't have any subordinates yet because up until

17 the 17th of April, I was only a police chief on paper, without any aides

18 and people working under me.

19 Q. What I mean is prior to that, did you speak to anyone and say, "In

20 case of this matter -- in case this Serb police force coming into

21 existence and my actively becoming the chief of the Serb police, "I want

22 to you be there working with me"? Did you make any such arrangements?

23 A. At that meeting, at Obudovac, which was attended by Mirko

24 Jovanovic, I also spoke and I said, "If the situation will turn for the

25 worse, if we don't find a democratic, political solution," I said, "Will

Page 9037

1 you be accepting this command?" And then they said, "Well, no problem.

2 We are here."

3 Q. Thank you. Now you said you wanted to -- rather you did purchase

4 blue berets. Where did you go to buy those?

5 A. These blue berets I bought in a shop in Belgrade. It's where they

6 sold these berets.

7 Q. Thank you. Apart from your appointment as police chief, or rather

8 announcement of your appointment as police chief, were there any other

9 announcements regarding administrative positions or appointments made at

10 this meeting?

11 A. In addition to my appointment as police chief, then the chief of

12 the Department of Defence was appointed, and as I also mentioned, that I

13 did not have any experience in police work, I would ask them to appoint

14 somebody else with greater experience. They said, "You will be the police

15 chief." And they appointed three assistants, Predic Stevic, Milan

16 Stankovic, and Milan Petrovic. They were appointed as my assistants.

17 Q. I think you said Blagoje Simic was present at this meeting.

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. Was he appointed to any position?

20 A. At that meeting, they asked Blagoje Simic to form the Crisis

21 Staff, and as he -- he stated, they stated they believed there won't be a

22 need for that, but they agreed that if the need arises, that he be then

23 the President of that Crisis Staff.

24 Q. Did he accept that? Agree to become president, if the need

25 arose?

Page 9038

1 A. Yes, yes. He didn't oppose it.

2 Q. Did he give any speeches at this meeting or say anything?

3 A. At this point in time, I do not recall concretely the speech.

4 Probably he did make a statement, but at this point in time, I do not

5 recall.

6 Q. Thank you. Very well. I'd like to turn now to another topic.

7 It's generally accepted that in Bosanski Samac there was a military body

8 called the 4th Detachment. Was there also in the area a 1st, 2nd and 3rd

9 Detachment as well?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Where were they based?

12 A. The 1st Detachment was based in -- with headquarters in the

13 village of Batkusa. The second one in the village of Crkvina. And the

14 3rd Detachment in the village of Pelagicevo. And the 4th Detachment in

15 the town of Samac.

16 Q. Thank you. And did you have any role in any of those

17 detachments?

18 A. Yes. I had a role in the 1st Detachment.

19 Q. What was that?

20 A. Well, I was the assistant of the commander of the 1st Detachment

21 for intelligence and security matters.

22 Q. Did the other detachments have a similar position? Namely a

23 position dealing with intelligence and security matters?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Who was filling that position in the 4th Detachment?

Page 9039

1 A. In the 4th Detachment, it was Simo Zaric.

2 Q. The 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th Detachments were they all part of a

3 larger military unit, the 17th Tactical Group?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Who was the commander of the 17th Tactical Group as at April of

6 1992?

7 A. Lieutenant Colonel active officer Stevan Nikolic.

8 Q. And where was the 17th Tactical Group based at the time? In early

9 1992?

10 A. The command headquarters of the 17th Tactical Group was located in

11 the village Pelagicevo.

12 Q. Did they have a supply dump or an area where they kept all their

13 weapons, ammunition, supplies and so on?

14 A. As far as I know, they had a small dump, smaller warehouse, in

15 Pelagicevo.

16 Q. Did these various detachments, the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th, ever

17 deal with one another, that is share information, intelligence, have

18 conferences, that sort of thing? Did they cooperate closely with one

19 another?

20 A. Well, I do not recall that there was any official exchange of

21 information but the information was submitted to the intelligence unit of

22 the 17th Tactical Group, but maybe there was some oral exchange of a

23 lesser volume. It could have been.

24 Q. Was it your duty, as assistant to the commander for intelligence

25 and security matters, to report to the 17th Tactical Group on such

Page 9040

1 matters?

2 A. That was the duty, but I don't recall of submitting any written

3 document. Maybe a few oral ones, because I wasn't a professional in this

4 area.

5 Q. Thank you. I'd like now to turn to another topic, and that is the

6 issue of paramilitaries. Do you know a place called Batkusa? I think

7 you've already mentioned it in evidence.

8 A. Yes, yes.

9 Q. Did paramilitaries ever arrive there?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What date did they arrive there?

12 A. I believe on the 11th of April, 1992.

13 Q. How many paramilitaries arrived there?

14 A. If I recall, a total of 50 members.

15 Q. Do you know a gentleman nicknamed Crni?

16 A. Yes. I met him at the time.

17 Q. What's his full name, can you recall?

18 A. I believe his full name is Dragan Djordjevic.

19 Q. Was he in the group of paramilitaries that arrived at Batkusa?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you know another man, nicknamed "Lugar"?

22 A. Yes. I met him also on that 11th of April.

23 Q. Again, can you remember Lugar's full -- full name? If you can't,

24 don't worry, but if you can remember, tell us.

25 A. I believe his name was Slobodan Miljkovic.

Page 9041

1 Q. Where were those two men from?

2 A. As far as I know, Crni was from Vranje, and Lugar and other 28

3 volunteers were from Kragujevac, also Serbia.

4 Q. I take it from your last answer both those places, Vranje and

5 Kragujevac are both in Serbia?

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 Q. How did they arrive in Batkusa? How did they get there, in other

8 words?

9 A. They arrived by helicopters.

10 Q. Is that JNA helicopter or air force helicopter? Part of the

11 military service formations of the Yugoslavian army?

12 A. Yes, I think so.

13 Q. Were you actually there when they arrived? Were you there to

14 greet them or not?

15 A. Yes. I was there when they landed.

16 Q. Who was with you?

17 A. As far as I can remember, the commander of the 1st detachment was

18 there, Mico Ivanovic, nicknamed "Mijak". There were some other people

19 there as well but I can't remember at this moment who else was there.

20 Q. This Ivanovic fellow, Mico, was he ever on the Crisis Staff?

21 A. No. He was not on the Crisis Staff.

22 Q. Thanks. Where did they set themselves up, the paramilitaries?

23 A. The first night, they arrived in the afternoon, so the first night

24 they set themselves up in the village of Batkusa, in the primary school

25 there.

Page 9042

1 Q. Now, did they have any sort of uniform or designation? Were they

2 given a name?

3 A. They all had camouflage, NATO uniforms. They had Red Berets on

4 their heads, and on the left or the right arm, they had a patch signifying

5 a grey wolf.

6 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Di Fazio, I wonder we can clarify

7 whether in that last answer, the witness actually said that they had

8 camouflage NATO uniforms on.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: I see.

10 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Is it correct?

11 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll clarify that.

12 Q. Just to be absolutely clear, you said the way it came out in

13 translation, Mr. Todorovic, it sounded like you said they had NATO

14 uniforms on, which I doubt. Were you in fact saying they had NATO-like

15 uniforms?

16 A. Yes. Their uniforms resembled NATO uniforms, and it was customary

17 to say of those uniforms that they were NATO uniforms, although they had

18 no NATO insignia on them.

19 Q. What was the line of authority in this group of paramilitaries?

20 Who was in charge and who was next in charge and so on? And also can you

21 comment on tell us what position Lugar held in the group?

22 A. As far as I know, Crni had the highest position for those --

23 amongst those 30 men from Serbia. His assistant was Debeli. And then

24 Lugar tried to be an assistant to Debeli.

25 Q. Now, Debeli is a nickname. I believe. Do you remember his full

Page 9043

1 name?

2 A. Yes. His nickname is Debeli and his name is Srecko Radovanovic.

3 Q. The men who came, you said that there were about 50, but a number

4 of them, I think you said 30 or so, came with Crni, what sort of

5 differentiation are you making in the group?

6 A. You mean in this group of 30 or the group of 50?

7 Q. No, in the group of 50, was it divided up in any particular way?

8 A. Yes. These 30 came exclusively from Serbia, and the other 20 were

9 people from the municipality of Samac, who had been -- who had gone to

10 training to Serbia and then they all came back together.

11 Q. I'll go into the 20 from Samac in due course but it's the 30 that

12 came with Crni that I'm interested in. Do you know how they were

13 selected, who assisted in their selection? How they were recruited?

14 A. From what I heard from them, they registered for this kind of

15 thing to wage war in Bosnia, in other words, through the Serbian Radical

16 Party.

17 Q. Did Crni have any connections, as far as you're aware, with the

18 Serbian Radical Party?

19 A. I don't know about Crni. The others said that they did, and this

20 Radovanovic man later was a republic delegate of the Serbian Radical Party

21 in the Serbian parliament.

22 Q. They arrived on the 11th of April. Did you see them again on the

23 12th of April?

24 A. Some of them, I did. I saw Crni again on the 12th of April.

25 Q. Did you see any other military men or attend any meetings on the

Page 9044

1 12th of April?

2 A. Yes. I saw Lieutenant Colonel Nikolic. I saw commander Mico

3 Ivanovic. At this meeting at Agro Posavina [phoen] in Donji Zagon on the

4 12th of April.

5 Q. Were any of the defendants present?

6 A. Yes. I was present of the defendants, and also Blagoje Simic.

7 Q. Mr. Todorovic, you're not a defendant in this case. So when I

8 speak of the defendants, I'll just mention -- I'm referring to the other

9 gentlemen what you identified earlier. Any way, you said that Blagoje

10 Simic was present?

11 A. Yes, yes, yes.

12 Q. What was the purpose of the meeting? What was discussed?

13 A. In this meeting, we talked to the commander of the 17th Tactical

14 Unit, the commander of the 1st Detachment was also there, and Lieutenant

15 Colonel Nikolic said that these 50 men that came by helicopter, from that

16 moment on, were under his command. He would take care of their food,

17 where they would be housed, ammunition, weapons, and such things.

18 Q. So in effect, the paramilitaries were absorbed into the structure

19 of the JNA?

20 A. Yes, into the structure of the 17th Tactical Group.

21 Q. Who was the highest ranking military man at this meeting?

22 A. The highest ranking military man was Lieutenant Colonel Stevan

23 Nikolic, the commander of the 17th Tactical Group.

24 Q. And who was the highest ranking civilian representative at this

25 meeting?

Page 9045

1 A. Well, from the area of the municipality of Bosanski Samac, Blagoje

2 Simic was the highest ranking civilian representative.

3 Q. So arrangements were made for them to be housed, sorry, to be

4 taken care of and to be absorbed into the JNA.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What -- where did these paramilitaries get their supplies? Where

7 were they drawing their weapons, ammunition, any of the other things that

8 you need to be a paramilitary?

9 A. As far as I know, while they were in the area of the municipality

10 of Bosanski Samac, they received ammunition and everything else that they

11 needed from the warehouses of the 17th Tactical Group.

12 Q. Just briefly depart, diverge for a moment here. Did Nikolic

13 remain in command of the 17th Tactical Group for long after this meeting?

14 A. He remained in command of this tactical group until 18th of May,

15 1992.

16 Q. Who replaced him?

17 A. After he left, Colonel Mico Djurdjevic headed this group.

18 Q. Thank you. And how long was he there in charge of the 17th

19 Tactical Group? Approximately. I don't need to know precisely.

20 A. He was there two or three months, while he was appointed, he said

21 that he would be there temporary, until a better solution was found. I

22 remember this quite well.

23 Q. Thank you. Who was appointed after Djurdjevic, Mico Djurdjevic,

24 left the command?

25 A. After Mico Djurdjevic, Colonel Dengic named Dragan Djordjevic,

Page 9046

1 Crni, to the commander of this tactical group.

2 Q. So Crni, the man we've called Crni so far, eventually was made

3 commander of this 17th tactical group?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And who came after Crni?

6 A. After Crni, the acting commander for a few days was Srecko

7 Radovanovic, Debeli, and then as far as I can remember, Lieutenant Colonel

8 Mile Beronja came.

9 Q. Thank you. Now I also want to know if the 17th Tactical Group

10 ever changed its name.

11 A. The tactical group changed its name, I don't know when exactly,

12 but it changed its name after 17th of May, 1992. After that, it was

13 called the 2nd Posavina Brigade.

14 Q. Did that coincide with the alleged withdrawal of the JNA from

15 Bosnia?

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 JUDGE LINDHOLM: I have two points just for clarification. On

18 page 54, line 3, it reads after, there is missing a "R", after Mico

19 Djurdjevic, Colonel Dengic, named -- there is something odd about the

20 name.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: I think that's only a misspelling, if Your Honour

22 pleases. It's just a misspelling at this stage. Crni's name was

23 Djurdjevic -- and it sounds like "George" in English.

24 JUDGE LINDHOLM: But on the same page, page 54, line 10, you have

25 also some kind of misspelling. It reads "Lieutenant Colonel Mile

Page 9047

1 Beronja."

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Again, that is a misspelling, if Your Honour

3 pleases. I think the transcript should show his name as Mile, M-I-L-E,

4 Beronja, B-E-R-O-N-J-A. I think that's the -- I think that should clarify

5 it. I don't think there is any dispute from the Defence about that.

6 JUDGE LINDHOLM: No, no. Thank you.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

8 MR. PANTELIC: Well, Your Honours, I have an objection in the form

9 of the question that my learned friend posed in line 17, page 54.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Line 17?

11 MR. PANTELIC: 17, yeah. I mean "alleged withdrawal". I agree

12 the Prosecution has certain, I would say, theory of this case, but maybe

13 this question might mislead this witness in answering. In future, maybe

14 the Prosecution can take --

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic, there is nothing wrong with the way

16 the question was been posed by the Prosecution. They have their own

17 reasons and you can deal with that in cross-examination in your closing

18 arguments.

19 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, thank you.

21 Q. Now, witness, I'd like to return no -- now to the paramilitaries

22 in Batkusa following your explanation of these military structures. You

23 said -- you said earlier in your evidence that of this group of 50 that

24 arrived in Batkusa, some 20, I think, were local men. Is that the

25 situation?

Page 9048

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you know a gentleman named Milos Bogdanovic?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. In around the 11th and 12th of April, what was his job at the time

5 in Bosanski Samac?

6 A. At that time, he was the chief of the municipal section of the

7 Ministry of Defence. This was the job that -- he had been doing it ten

8 years before that time as well, if I remember correctly.

9 Q. Later in that year, after the events of the 16th and 17th of

10 April, did he -- was he ever a member of the Crisis Staff?

11 A. Yes. At the assembly in Obudovac, he was reconfirmed as the new

12 chief of the municipal section, of the municipal defence section and he

13 was also a member of the Crisis Staff.

14 Q. What was his political background?

15 A. Before the multi-party elections, he was a member of the League of

16 Communists, and after the multi-party elections, whether he was a SDP or

17 not, I don't know, but as far as I know, he was not a member of the SDS.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic?

19 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour, it's just correction in

20 transcript. Page 56, line 13 and 15, I do believe that the witness said

21 that this gentleman was "reaffirmed" as a chief of the municipal section

22 of the Ministry of Defence. So maybe our friend can clarify that, please.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, I'm grateful to Mr. Pantelic for that.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio you can clear that.


Page 9049

1 Q. Let's be clear, Mr. Todorovic, as Defence counsel pointed out, he

2 said that you referred to Bogdanovic as being a member of the Ministry of

3 Defence. Do you agree with that?

4 A. I remember I think he said that he was the chief of the municipal

5 section of the Ministry of Defence. I think that was his full title. And

6 also the full name of the institution where he worked as chief.

7 Q. Yes. Thank you. Now, did you ever speak to him about these

8 paramilitaries? Or did he speak to you about these paramilitaries?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What did he say?

11 A. He said to me once in my car that he was supposed to send 30 young

12 men to a training course and if I knew of some young men who wanted to

13 volunteer to go to voluntary training for about 20 days, that I should

14 recommend these men to him.

15 Q. Did you assist him by nominating some men?

16 A. Yes. I assisted him.

17 Q. Did you in fact nominate some men?

18 A. Yes. Some seven or eight, six, seven or eight men who were

19 members of the 1st Detachment, into which I was also drafted.

20 Q. And did you understand where they were to be sent for training?

21 A. I didn't know the exact location where they would be sent. All I

22 knew was they would undergo a short training course but I did not know the

23 exact location, not at that time.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours just bear with me for one

25 moment?

Page 9050


2 [Prosecution counsel confer]


4 Q. When did the group of 20 men leave for training?

5 A. As far as I can remember, they left sometime in mid-March of

6 1992.

7 Q. Did you ever visit them?

8 A. Yes. I visited them once when I went to buy these blue berets.

9 Then I was told that if I had the time, that I should go and visit them.

10 Q. I'd like to look at this trip when you went to purchase the blue

11 berets in a little more detail. Where did you go, first of all, to buy

12 the blue berets?

13 A. To Belgrade.

14 Q. When you were there, did you speak to anyone?

15 A. Yes. Milos Bogdanovic told me that I should pay them a visit and

16 I contacted Mr. Prodanic, and Mr. Prodanic told me that I could go and

17 visit them, these men that were in training.

18 Q. Now, just tell the Chamber who Prodanic is?

19 A. Mr. Prodanic is a man who worked at the Ministry of Interior

20 Affairs of Serbia.

21 Q. And he was a contact given to you by Milos Bogdanovic?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did Milos Bogdanovic explain to you the purpose of you going to

24 speak to this Ministry of the Interior gentleman?

25 A. He didn't explain to me the purpose. He just said that it would

Page 9051

1 be good if I visited these men, and that Mr. Prodanic would tell me where

2 they were, that he would basically direct me to the location where this

3 training was underway.

4 Q. Did you go to the Ministry of the Interior in Belgrade?

5 A. Yes. I came to the entrance, and I asked to see Mr. Prodanic.

6 The guards told me that I should wait for a few moments. He came out.

7 And in the lobby, across from the reception, he welcomed me and he said

8 that I could go and see them, and that there already was a car with some

9 people in it that were going in the same direction, and that if I were to

10 follow this car, that I would then come to the location where the training

11 was held.

12 Q. Did that in fact happen? Did you follow the car and did you

13 arrive at their training location?

14 A. Yes. I arrived at the location and I saw these 20 men from Samac

15 that were undergoing training there.

16 Q. Who was in the car that you followed? Do you know?

17 A. In the car that I followed, "Frenki" was there. Later I found out

18 that his last name was Simatovic or Stomatovic or something like that but

19 he was known as "Frenki." That was his nickname.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, perhaps I can clarify this

21 with the witness.

22 Q. You said that in the car you followed there was a gentleman whose

23 name you mentioned, it's in the transcript as "Munke". Did you mean to

24 say "Frenki"?

25 A. Yes, I said"Frenki."

Page 9052

1 Q. Do you know if he held any position in the Ministry of the

2 Interior?

3 A. From what I heard, he worked at the Ministry of the interior of

4 Serbia.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours just bear with me while I

6 consult with a colleague, if Your Honours please? Might this be a time --

7 I understand this is the time for the break.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We shall take our break for 20 minutes and

9 then continue at 12.50.

10 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 12.53 p.m.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Examination-in-chief is continuing, but Judge

13 Lindholm has some questions for the witness.

14 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Thank you, Your Honour. Perhaps through the

15 Prosecutor, if we go back to the meeting in March, 1992, I would like to

16 have the exact time of that meeting, if possible.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

18 JUDGE LINDHOLM: When was it held?

19 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

20 Q. Mr. Todorovic, you've already spoken, told us about meeting that

21 you had in March of 1992, the meeting where you were appointed as police

22 chief. Can you remember the time that it -- at which it occurred? And

23 also the date, if you can.

24 A. As far as I remember, it was the 29th of March. Maybe in the

25 afternoon, 1.00, 2.00 or 3.00 p.m. I don't remember exactly.

Page 9053

1 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Thank you. And some further questions. The

2 witness said -- I have two questions. The witness said that "they"

3 suggested that Blagoje Simic should form the Crisis Staff and be chief of

4 it. And that Mr. Todorovic should become chief of the police. I would

5 like to know who were "they" who suggested and decided.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, Your Honour.

7 Q. First of all, Mr. Todorovic, did you hear his honour's question?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You described already that there are a number of delegates at this

10 meeting in late March, men who had been elected as deputies to various

11 municipal assemblies. That's the situation, is it not?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. They were men from the assemblies of various municipalities in the

14 area, I assume one of them was Bosanski Samac municipality. What other

15 municipalities did they come from?

16 A. When I said "they," I intended the legally elected deputies of the

17 municipal assemblies of Samac, Orasje, Odzak and Gradacac. And they had

18 voting rights, and by voting by majority votes they appointed me as chief

19 of the Serb police.

20 Q. Let's just be -- make sure we are absolutely clear about this.

21 There were various municipalities.

22 A. Four municipalities.

23 Q. They all had their own assembly?

24 A. Yes. They had their lawful assemblies, which were formed after

25 the first multi-party elections in Bosnia and Herzegovina. And they were

Page 9054

1 already the existing deputies in these four municipal assemblies.

2 Q. Fine. Now, the people at the meeting who attended in late March,

3 were various representatives from these different municipal assemblies of

4 Serb ethnic origin, is that the situation?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And when you say, "they" appointed you and Mr. Blagoje Simic to

7 your respective positions, are you referring to these Serbian -- ethnic

8 Serbian representatives from these different municipal assemblies?

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Does that clarify Your Honour's question?

11 JUDGE LINDHOLM: But if I understood correctly, Mr. Todorovic, for

12 instance, he was appointed police chief for the municipality of Bosanski

13 Samac, and not for all those different municipalities.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: No, if Your Honour pleases, it was the

15 representatives from those various municipal assemblies who elected him

16 to -- Mr. Todorovic, to that position.

17 JUDGE LINDHOLM: For those different municipalities.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, the various delegates from the different

19 municipalities got -- attended at the meeting, and then elected him,

20 Mr. Todorovic, as police chief.

21 JUDGE LINDHOLM: For those municipalities?

22 MR. DI FAZIO: No. I see. I'll clarify that.

23 Q. You were elected police chief at this meeting but for what area?

24 For what municipality?

25 A. For the area of this newly formed Serb municipality, and this

Page 9055

1 newly formed municipality comprises the Serbian -- Serb villages of these

2 four municipalities, Odzak, Orasje, Gradacac and Samac.

3 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Thank you.


5 Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Todorovic, I'd like to take you back to this visit

6 to Belgrade, when you -- that you've been telling us about. Do you know a

7 man named Jugoslav Maksimovic?

8 A. Yes. I met him.

9 Q. Was this on this trip that you mentioned before the break, the

10 trip when you attended to purchase the blue berets?

11 A. Prior to that, I don't know the exact date, prior to that, I was

12 with Mr. Milos Bogdanovic, and he asked me whether he could go with my

13 official car and after we both finished our official business, we met in a

14 restaurant and Milos introduced me to this gentleman, Colonel Jugoslav

15 Maksimovic.

16 Q. Are you saying that you'd met him prior to this occasion when you

17 went to Belgrade to purchase the blue berets, on a previous occasion?

18 A. Yes, yes, earlier. Maybe a month or two earlier. I don't know

19 exactly.

20 Q. I see. Now, on this occasion that you attended at -- you went to

21 Belgrade to buy the blue berets, did you see Maksimovic there on that

22 occasion, that trip?

23 A. I believe that on that occasion, I did not see him.

24 Q. What position did he -- did Mr. Maksimovic hold?

25 A. As far as I know, Mr. Maksimovic was working in the general --

Page 9056

1 Chief of Staff of the JNA on matters of security.

2 Q. Thank you. Very well. Let's return now to the car trip. You

3 said that you followed a car in which was the man named Simatovic or

4 Frenki. Where did your trip take you to?

5 A. We arrived to Western Slavonia, a village called Sarengrad, next

6 to the town of Ilok.

7 Q. Was that in the territory of Croatia, but territory that was at

8 the time held by Serb forces?

9 A. Yes. That's a part of Eastern Slavonia under the Serb control,

10 but geographically the territory of Croatia.

11 Q. And did you see the men there and have a chance to speak to them,

12 see them training and so on?

13 A. Yes. I did see these 20 persons from Samac, at the time they

14 weren't exercising. I spent a short time with them and also talked to

15 them.

16 Q. What was Frenki doing?

17 A. Frenki was staying there, went into a house which is -- was a

18 kilometre closer than that vine grove where the training was taking place,

19 and one of these people took me to that vineyard and he wasn't present

20 when I spoke to these 20 persons.

21 Q. Did you eventually make your way back to Belgrade?

22 A. After this visit, I continued on the route to Samac that day.

23 Q. When you got back to Samac, did you speak to Bogdanovic about your

24 visit?

25 A. Yes. I told him that I was there, that those 20 people are in

Page 9057

1 good spirits, that they are training and so on.

2 Q. You said that you played a role, a part, in the selection of the

3 20 or so young men who went for this training. Did anyone else say to you

4 that they too had played such a role?

5 A. Yes. Later, after they returned, I heard that also some others

6 assisted Bogdanovic in the selection of these people.

7 Q. Who was that?

8 A. Well, Blagoje told me that he also suggested a few people to Milos

9 for this.

10 Q. Did he give you details of his choices, his selections, where he

11 got them from or did he just tell you that he'd done that?

12 A. Well, he just mentioned that he had a role in this but I do not

13 recollect any detail.

14 Q. Thank you. I want to ask you now about some other matters

15 relating to the paramilitaries in Bosanski Samac. Move away from this

16 topic of the selection and the arrival of the 50 paramilitaries in

17 Batkusa. Perhaps I should commence by producing this document to you.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: The Defence counsel will know of it as document

19 C34. Perhaps a copy in B/C/S can be placed on the ELMO. I think it has.

20 Q. Mr. Todorovic, have you had a chance to have a quick look at the

21 document?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. The document says that Crisis Staffs of all local communes in the

24 Serbian municipality of Bosanski Samac are hereby ordered to organise

25 within the local communes the feeding of soldiers and members of the

Page 9058

1 special battalion. My first question is: What is the reference to local

2 communes there?

3 A. The local communes, well, the villages within the -- in the

4 territory of Bosanski Samac.

5 Q. Did they all have their own mini Crisis Staffs, so to speak?

6 A. Yes. At the beginning, they did have, they had mini Crisis Staffs

7 of the communes in the first, second or the third month.

8 Q. What do you mean? What months are you talking about there where

9 you say first, second or third month?

10 A. Maybe April, May and June, something like that.

11 Q. It refers to a special battalion. What is the special battalion?

12 A. That special battalion consisted of the youngest people from the

13 territory of the municipality of Samac, approximately 300 men, plus those

14 50 who were training, in training. They represented -- they formed this

15 special battalion, which was within the 17th tactical group.

16 Q. So it consisted, in part, of the paramilitaries who had arrived,

17 the 50 or so paramilitaries? The 50 or so paramilitaries from Batkusa?

18 A. Yes, plus 300 or even more local men and younger, younger men.

19 Q. Were they chosen for special training, these 300 younger men? In

20 order to become part of this special battalion?

21 A. These 300 local people had no special training, but they were the

22 offensive battalion, and it was named "special battalion." That is what

23 it was called by everyone.

24 Q. Look at the signature on the document. Do you recognise it?

25 A. I repeat, I am not a handwriting specialist but I believe I know

Page 9059

1 this signature.

2 Q. Whose signature is it?

3 A. Well, this is how Blagoje Simic signed his name.

4 Q. I understand that you're not a handwriting expert but can you tell

5 me this: Did you, throughout those years in the 1990s, from 1992 onwards,

6 did you have occasion to see him signing documents?

7 A. Yes, I did, on a few occasions, on a number of occasions.

8 Q. And did you become, in your way, familiar with his signature?

9 A. Yes. It became familiar to me.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: I produce the document into evidence.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number, please?

12 THE REGISTRAR: It will be P74 for the English translation, and

13 P74 ter for the B/C/S. Thank you.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.


16 Q. Was this decision to supply food and assistance or at least food

17 to members of the special battalion, which included the paramilitaries,

18 discussed in the Crisis Staff?

19 A. As far as I can remember, yes.

20 Q. And was it in the nature of a special effort to assist this

21 special battalion?

22 A. Since the food that all the soldiers in the brigade were receiving

23 was not enough, Obudovac and Samac are an agricultural area so this

24 decision was made in the sense that the villagers should give additional

25 food, that the -- so that the military food became better or could become

Page 9060

1 better.

2 Q. Thank you. Would you now look at this document that I've produced

3 to you?

4 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, Defence counsel will know

5 of it as C38. Thank you.

6 Q. Could you please reacquaint yourself with this document? Firstly,

7 have you had an opportunity to read it?

8 A. Yes, yes.

9 Q. And is it signed by anyone?

10 A. I don't see a signature here.

11 Q. Does it purport to be signed by Blagoje Simic? I can't read

12 Cyrillic script.

13 A. Yes. It says, "Dr. Blagoje Simic." But this might be a bad copy

14 but I don't see a signature here. I don't see the entire signature. I

15 see only a couple of lines.

16 Q. Thank you. Now was this the issue in this letter -- let me

17 rephrase the question this way: Was the sending of this letter discussed

18 within the Crisis Staff?

19 A. As far as I can remember, yes.

20 Q. Whose idea was it to send the letter?

21 A. I can't remember at this exact moment.

22 Q. Can you see the date of the document?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. What is it?

25 A. It might be the 2nd or the 12th of May. I think it's the 12th.

Page 9061

1 Q. Assuming it was the 2nd, by that stage Crni had been there for

2 just over or just -- around half a month or so?

3 A. Yes. I don't know if it's the 2nd or the 12th, though, because

4 you can't really see it.

5 Q. And Crni, had he participated in the events of the 16th and 17th

6 of April in Bosanski Samac when the -- when the town was placed under

7 control of Serb forces?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you recall the occasion when the letter was sent? What did the

10 Crisis Staff hope to gain from it, if anything?

11 A. As far as I can remember, Crni said that he had some influential

12 relatives that had managerial positions in Vranje and that maybe such a

13 letter, but I'm not sure I remember this right, maybe this kind of a

14 letter could get people to help with food, flour and other things but as

15 I've already said, I'm not sure I remember this correctly.

16 Q. Now, at one stage, at around this time, were there a number of

17 people murdered at Crkvina?

18 A. I don't know whether this letter was created before or after this

19 event. I can't remember that.

20 Q. But certainly, you know the episode that I'm talking about, when

21 quite a number of people were murdered at Crkvina. You know that episode?

22 You heard of it?

23 A. Yes, I heard of it.

24 Q. And you heard, I think, that man Lugar was involved in that,

25 perpetrator of that?

Page 9062

1 A. Yes. I heard that he was the only one that participated in this

2 horrible event.

3 Q. Can you remember the date of the -- of that particular mass

4 murder?

5 A. I don't remember the exact date, but I know it happened sometime

6 in May, but I do not -- I cannot recall the exact date.

7 Q. Early May?

8 A. I guess it was early May but I don't know the exact date.

9 Q. Okay. And if the document is in fact dated the 12th of May, 1992,

10 might it postdate that particular episode?

11 A. It's hard for me to say, considering the time distance. It's hard

12 to determine which event happened first. I'm not sure. I don't know.

13 Q. All right. I thank you very much.

14 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Di Fazio, on the English translation as you

15 can see the document, the translators have put down one digit

16 illegible/2nd of May, 1992. So very clearly they were not convinced that

17 it was 12. There was doubt obviously in the minds of the translators.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, they are certainly not convinced, all we can

19 say is the translators were unconvinced of the legibility of the digit.

20 Presumably they were convinced of the presence of a digit before the

21 2. And well, who knows what that was. Depending on the number -- it

22 could have been one or 2, sorry, I don't know how many days there were in

23 May, one or two. Any way, there will be other evidence in the case that

24 will help us fix the Crkvina date with more accuracy, if Your Honours

25 please.

Page 9063

1 Yes, now I seek to tender the document into evidence.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number, please.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Clerk it will be P75 for the English version and

4 P75 ter for the B/C/S. Thank you.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic?

6 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour, with regard to this particular

7 document, P75 and P75 ter, according to our letter, which was sent in

8 pre-trial phase to the Prosecution, the Defence has no objection to

9 admissibility but has objection to the authenticity of this document and

10 just for the record, I want to put it in transcript.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: To place it on record.


13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, thank you.


15 Q. Now I'd like to produce to you, Mr. Todorovic, another document.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, Defence counsel will know

17 of it as C64.

18 Q. Now, Mr. Todorovic, this document is dated the 2nd of June, and

19 there is a reference in it to the special task battalion. What is the

20 special task battalion?

21 A. This is the same battalion that we talked about earlier, the

22 Special Battalion or as it is named here the Special task battalion.

23 Q. 500 uniforms for the special task battalion which includes of

24 course the 50 paramilitaries, does it not?

25 A. Yes.

Page 9064

1 Q. It says that the president of the executive board is going to buy

2 these uniforms. Who was the president of the executive board at the

3 time?

4 A. I'm not sure. I think Milan Simic was already the president at

5 that time, but I'm not 100 per cent sure.

6 Q. All right. We will be able to look at that by reference to the

7 two other documents but it wasn't Milan Simic, who preceded him as

8 president of the executive board?

9 A. Mirko Jovanovic.

10 Q. So the president must be either Jovanovic or Milan Simic and we'll

11 clarify that later but either one of those two was the president at the

12 time?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you remember this decision being discussed?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Why did the Crisis Staff involve itself in helping out the special

17 tasks battalion?

18 A. As far as I know, the Crisis Staff involved itself in helping out

19 the entire brigade, be it with providing more food or in this case

20 procuring uniforms.

21 Q. Would you look at the signature of the document -- on the

22 document? Again I know it's not the best but from what you can see, can

23 you comment on whose signature it is?

24 A. It resembles the signature of Blagoje Simic.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 9065

1 MR. DI FAZIO: I tender the document.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number, please?

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, it will be P76 ter for the B/C/S and

4 P76 for the English version. Thank you.


6 Q. Do you know a gentleman named Mico Djurdjevic?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Who was he?

9 A. He was a Colonel in the JNA and for a shorter period of time, he

10 was the commander of the 2nd Posavina Brigade.

11 Q. Did he play any role in the purchase of these uniforms or the

12 decision to eventually purchase these uniforms for the Special Battalion?

13 A. I don't know whether it was him personally, but I do know that the

14 commander of the brigade complained that he did not have uniforms that all

15 looked the same. All the uniforms looked different. Some of them were

16 old, some of them were new, some of them were camouflage. And therefore

17 the command of the brigade asked the crisis staff, that is to say the

18 municipality, that if there is such possibility, that the same uniforms be

19 bought for all the -- for the entire battalion, which was engaging in

20 these offensive -- offensive activities, so that the members of the

21 battalion could recognise each other and in that way avoid friendly fire.

22 So the purpose was so that the members of this battalion could distinguish

23 themselves from members of other members of the brigade or members of

24 other brigades and also from the enemy side.

25 Q. This sort of approach for assistance, how was it made? Was it

Page 9066

1 made in any sort of formal fashion? For example a letter? Or did he come

2 along, some from the army come along and have a chat to anyone in the

3 Crisis Staff? Can you recall?

4 A. As far as I can remember, these requests were usually made

5 orally. There might have been some written document about it as well, but

6 most of these requests were verbal, that -- and they were addressed to the

7 municipality or to some company, so these institutions would be asked to

8 help with additional amounts of items that would be received along those

9 that these units already had from the military depots.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Can Exhibit P25 be produced to the witness? And

12 may I see it before it's actually handed to the witness?

13 Q. Can you look at the signature and tell us if it's that of Blagoje

14 Simic?

15 A. You can't see it very well but it resembles the signature of

16 Blagoje Simic.

17 Q. Who was Alexsander Vukovic, Vuk?

18 A. Alexsander Vukovic, Vuk, was one of those 30 volunteers. He was

19 killed, I think, on May 1st of 1992.

20 Q. Now, he wasn't from Bosanski Samac, was he?

21 A. No, he was not from Bosanski Samac.

22 Q. So he must have been in the group of 30 or so that came with Crni,

23 is that what you're saying?

24 A. Yes. I think I already said this. He came, together with this

25 group of 30 men. He was a member of this group of 30 men that arrived on

Page 9067

1 April 11th.

2 Q. This decision was taken on the 27th of June. Can you recall how

3 long before that he was killed?

4 A. As far as I can remember, he was killed on May 1st or maybe the

5 2nd of May, in any case it was May 1st, 2nd or 3rd when he was killed. He

6 was killed in the territory of the municipality of Bosanski Samac.

7 Q. Was he eventually -- his body eventually transferred to another

8 part of Yugoslavia by helicopter?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, do you know Izet Izetbegovic?

11 A. Yes. I know Izet Izetbegovic. I think that the body of Alexander

12 Vukovic and the body of Izet Izetbegovic were transferred by the same

13 helicopter.

14 Q. I think Izetbegovic was still alive at that stage, unless I've

15 misunderstood you. So are you saying that Alexander Vukovic was in a --

16 his body was transferred by helicopter and he was accompanied by the, at

17 that stage alive, Mr. Izetbegovic?

18 A. I think that on -- in the same helicopter, a coffin was

19 transferred and the coffin contained the killed Alexander Vukovic and

20 Izet Izetbegovic was there as well, but he was still alive.

21 Q. And was Izetbegovic, at that stage, on his way off to be

22 exchanged?

23 A. Yes. Sometime after that, he was exchanged in Sarajevo for the

24 arrested cadets of the air force school in Rajlovac.

25 Q. Thank you. I've finished with that document.

Page 9068

1 MR. DI FAZIO: What time do Your Honours propose to take the break

2 this morning?

3 JUDGE MUMBA: We are sitting up to 13.45.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: And then we have an afternoon session from 15.30 to

6 17 hours today.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you very much.

8 Q. I want to change to another topic now, Mr. Todorovic. Do you know

9 a man named Fadil Topcagic?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Who was he?

12 A. He was the brother of Mr. Zaric's wife, also he was a member of

13 the 4th Detachment.

14 Q. Was he ever a member, for any period of time, any period of time,

15 of the Crisis Staff?

16 A. Yes. Because of -- because Mr. Nikolic, the commander of the 17th

17 Tactical Group insisted, he was appointed to the Crisis Staff.

18 Q. How long was he on the Crisis Staff?

19 A. A very short time. He was there at the beginning. Later, he

20 didn't show up any more.

21 Q. Thank you. In the period of time leading up to the 16th of April,

22 1992, in the area of Bosanski Samac, in the municipality, in -- and the

23 town and surrounding areas, were there a number of explosions and damage

24 to buildings and so on?

25 A. Yes. There were several explosions.

Page 9069

1 Q. It's agreed that there was a bridge across the Sava and a bridge

2 across the Bosna. Were these bridges damaged by explosions?

3 A. The bridge across the Sava was damaged, before April 17th. Then

4 it was repaired, because the damage wasn't great. Then after April 17th,

5 it was again damaged. And the bridge across Bosna was blown up after

6 April 17th.

7 Q. Was there an Orthodox Chapel in Bosanski Samac?

8 A. Yes. There was an Orthodox and a Catholic church.

9 Q. Did the Orthodox Church ever sustain any damage in this period of

10 time leading up to April 16?

11 A. The Orthodox Church that was in the town did not sustain any

12 damage. But a smaller chapel by the Orthodox Cemetery was blown up before

13 April 17th.

14 Q. Before I proceed any further, is this a proper time to break?

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, it's now 13.45 and we shall continue this

16 afternoon at 15.30 hours.

17 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.46 p.m.









Page 9070

1 --- On resuming at 3.32 p.m.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Case number

4 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Miroslav Tadic and Simo

5 Zaric.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, the Prosecution?

7 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, my I inquire if there are

8 any time limits on the examination-in-chief of this witness? Because if

9 there are, then I will of course --

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, the Trial Chamber was wondering or is

11 suggesting that you complete examination-in-chief by the end of tomorrow's

12 session.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Well --

14 JUDGE MUMBA: You understood?

15 MR. DI FAZIO: I understand, yes, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: What do you think? How long do you think you need?

17 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I spent months with this

18 man, weeks, trying to get down to the essential stuff that I think is

19 helpful to the Prosecution case. If I lead evidence of that, I won't be

20 able to finish it tomorrow. I just won't be able to do it Your Honours.

21 I really tried to pare it done down to the essentials. I can do my level

22 best to speed it up as fast as I can.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: How long do you think you need?

24 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, I would have to go into Monday, at the

25 least. At the least.

Page 9071

1 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm mindful of what Your Honours are saying, I know

3 how anxious you are, believe me after being in this case since September

4 of last year, I'm very, very alive to the issue of getting the case

5 moving but he's a really important witness, important for us and of course

6 crucial to the defence as well and I respectfully suggest that I'll do my

7 level best to go as quickly as I can but I would like to cover the topics

8 I have set aside for him.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The Trial Chamber does agree that he's an

10 essential witness for the Prosecution and also of great assistance, if I

11 may put it that way to all the three accused persons. And I believe that

12 we would have to extend his stay at the detention unit for purposes of

13 completing his evidence beyond next week, beyond the 14th of June.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Of course that depends, of course, on how long the

15 Defence need. I just don't know how long they will be with him.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. This can't be decided now because they haven't

17 got all the evidence-in-chief.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: It's difficult for them to predict.


20 MR. DI FAZIO: But if Your Honours please, if I can be optimistic,

21 Ms. Ready is going on a mission this weekend, she is taking off time to go

22 and see witnesses, get the 92 bis issue attended to. On mission again

23 next week.


25 MR. DI FAZIO: Prosecution is pulling out all stops in an effort

Page 9072

1 to get this -- the case moving. I can assure the Chamber to a large

2 extent on getting the case moving, thank you.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well, then, we may request the registry that

4 the witness Stevan Todorovic remains in the detention unit beyond next

5 week in order to complete his evidence and cross-examination and

6 examination-in-chief, especially that we have three accused persons whose

7 defence is very much affected by the evidence expected from Mr. Stevan

8 Todorovic.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Oh, yes. Thank you.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well, you may continue.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

12 Q. Now, before lunch, Mr. Todorovic, we were talking about some of

13 these occurrences that is occurred in the months leading up to April the

14 16th. You mentioned the bridge and the damage to the chapel. Did you

15 ever speak to Fadil Topcagic about those sorts of episodes?

16 A. Yes. Later, in the course of 1992, at the end of 1992, prior to

17 the Patron Saint of Fadil Topcagic [as interpreted], he said that he's --

18 he was good at the damaging of the bridges and of the chapel at the

19 cemetery, and that he also participated in some sabotage activity prior to

20 the 17th of April.

21 Q. Thank you. You mentioned that this was on the prior to the patron

22 saint of Fadil Topcagic. Was this at some sort of social function that

23 you're talking about?

24 A. Well, it wasn't a social event, Topcagic, he invited me to visit

25 him at his Slava, that he's become a Serb of Orthodox faith, and that he

Page 9073

1 was celebrating the St. Sava so I went and attended this ceremony, this

2 feast, Slava, at his home.

3 Q. And this is when the comments were made?

4 A. No. When he came to my office in the police station, he told me

5 that he's a good Serb soldier, that he's a good saboteur, and that he gave

6 a valid contribution to the Republic of Srpska and he mentioned these

7 details, inviting me to his Slava, the patron saint feast, and I came

8 somewhere in the evening, the celebrations were soon at the end, they

9 already had a bit to drink. There were some people whom I did not know,

10 and who were glorifying the contributions made by Topcagic, also his

11 brother-in-law, Zaric, was there as well as some other -- two or three

12 other people I knew, and the others I did not know.

13 Q. Thank you. When you say people were glorifying his contributions,

14 what did you understand the contributions to mean? To be? What was your

15 understanding of what they were referring to when glorifying the

16 contributions?

17 A. They were saying that he's a good saboteur, that he's got a lot of

18 patience in that action and that he participated in some sabotage

19 activity.

20 Q. Was -- I'll withdraw that. Did you have any idea of the purpose

21 or point of this sabotage activity?

22 A. These sabotage activities occurring prior to the war, I didn't

23 know who was carrying out -- them out prior to the 17th of April. I

24 believed it was the Muslim and Croat saboteurs who carried it out. Later

25 on, I understood that the sabotage activity contributed to the

Page 9074

1 deterioration of the poor interethnic relations, and that the fear was

2 mounting.

3 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Di Fazio, I have one question here for the

4 witness, and maybe you can put it to him. He mentions, on page 80, line

5 11, and following, that at his patron saint feast day, he said that

6 quotation here in English, "he was good at the damaging of the bridges and

7 of the chapel at the cemetery." And then it goes on. My question is:

8 The chapel at the cemetery was a Serbian chapel. And if he is now

9 celebrating a Serbian Orthodox patron saint's day, why would bragging

10 about blowing up a Serbian chapel endear him to Bosnian Serbs, or Serbs

11 generally?

12 MR. DI FAZIO: That may not have been the purpose of the activity

13 and that's what I'm trying to establish, if Your Honour pleases.

14 Q. Mr. Todorovic, you heard what Her Honour had to say about the

15 matter. What we want to clarify is this: What was the purpose, as far as

16 you could gather, of Fadil Topcagic carrying out these, or being involved

17 in this sort of saboteur activity? What was he hoping to it achieve?

18 A. Well, the --

19 MR. LAZAREVIC: I object to that. First of all, about this

20 question, I believe that my learned colleague I don't want to teach him

21 his job but I believe that maybe he should ask if Fadil Topcagic told him

22 what was the purpose, and not to ask him for some speculation what Fadil

23 Topcagic eventually had in mind.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio, I think there is some element of

25 that speculation, if you may rephrase your question.

Page 9075

1 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

2 Q. Now, you've mentioned that he came to your office and said, told

3 you about saboteur activities. Did he ever provide you with any

4 explanation as to why he had carried out or conducted that activity?

5 A. He offered no explanation. He just boasted to me, shortly, that

6 he participated in some sabotage activities and mentioned a few of them.

7 Q. Weren't you keen to find out what the purpose of that was?

8 A. Well, at the time, I wasn't interested. I gave my opinion. I

9 presented to you my opinion. And that is all.

10 Q. What about at the party where you say the feast that St. Sava's

11 feast, was there any explanation there of the purpose or what had been the

12 purpose of this sabotage activity?

13 A. No. At the St. Sava's feast there was no explanations. Most of

14 them were under the influence of alcohol. I only heard a few sentences

15 from his guests, that I did not know personally, that he was a good

16 saboteur. They didn't indicate individual elements of what happened and

17 where it took place, nor did I show an interest in that.

18 Q. When you were at the office and he gave you the -- he mentioned

19 that he'd been involved in these sorts of activities did you report that

20 to anyone else?

21 A. I don't recall of reporting this to anyone else.

22 Q. Let me ask you this: Was there in fact damage to an Orthodox

23 chapel?

24 A. Immediately prior to the 17th of April, a month or two earlier,

25 the small, old Orthodox chapel, which was not being used, was partially

Page 9076

1 damaged, and among Christians, touching the cemeteries or tombs is a very

2 sensitive matter. We cannot say there was a lot of material damage but

3 the very act had a negative echo among the Orthodox population.

4 Q. Who was blamed in the community and in the media and so on, for

5 the damage to the chapel?

6 A. Well, in this environment, all the sabotage and explosions which

7 took place, the blame was placed on Croatian formations entering from

8 Croatia, or from the internal parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina, that they

9 were the perpetrators.

10 Q. Thank you. And in respect of the bridge that he claimed to have

11 damaged, incidentally which one was it the Sava or the Bosna?

12 A. The bridge on the Sava. As well as the bridge on river Bosna --

13 over the river Bosna.

14 Q. Did you hear him make claims to having damaged both of those

15 bridges?

16 A. Yes. That's what I heard from him. As far as the damage

17 concerning the second bridge, over the River Bosna, some 50 per cent of

18 the population in Samac knew about that.

19 Q. And again, was there damage to those bridges prior to the 16th of

20 April?

21 A. The Bosna Bridge, the damage was after the 16th of April. On the

22 bridge over the Sava, there was one lesser damage before the 16th of April

23 and the second operation which took place after the 17th -- the 16th of

24 April, when the bridge was put out of use. And after the damage of the

25 bridge on one side, then damage took place also on the Croatian side so

Page 9077

1 that this bridge over the Sava was completely damaged.

2 Q. As far as the damage to the Sava, when there was lesser damage,

3 that is the incident before the 16th of April, was that episode blamed on

4 anyone?

5 A. Prior to the 16th of April, I believe that the blame was ascribed

6 to the Croatian Army, to the Croats from Croatia, who wanted to prevent

7 the JNA from entering Croatia from the direction of Tuzla, and the

8 explosive was visible like sausages hanging below the bridge. It's on

9 the Croatian side. It was placed much -- there much earlier.

10 Q. Thank you. And were you able to tell what particular damage to

11 which bridge he was talking about when he came and saw you at the -- at

12 your office? Was he talking about damage to the Sava before the 16th of

13 April or after the 16th of April, or was he talking about damage to the

14 bridge over the Bosna? Or can't you say?

15 A. In that short talk, he didn't speak about details. He just said

16 that he's a good saboteur, that he's fighting for the Republic of Srpska

17 and that he participated in sabotage action, not mentioning the dates or

18 with whom he carried this out.

19 Q. Thank you. Very well. I'm going to leave this topic now. I want

20 to take you now to events just prior to the 16th and 17th of April, and in

21 particular, to the 15th of April. On that particular day, did you attend

22 any meeting?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Where was the meeting?

25 A. That meeting was held in the village of Obudovac, Obudovac.

Page 9078

1 Q. Who attended?

2 A. As I recall, it was I attended it, it was attended by Blagoje

3 Simic, Milos Bogdanovic, Savo Popovic, Dujan Tamasic from Pelagicevo, Mico

4 -- the commander of the detachment, Ivan Ivanovic, then Crni also

5 attended for a short time, and Mirko Jovanovic. I know that he

6 was also present, the president of the executive board. And maybe a few

7 other people.

8 Q. And what time was the meeting? Was it in the evening?

9 A. Yes. It was in the evening hours.

10 Q. Did Mr. Blagoje Simic speak at the meeting?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What did he say?

13 A. Blagoje Simic came late to this meeting, because prior to that, he

14 was in Pelagicevo and he told us he was coming from Pelagicevo, the

15 headquarters of the 17th Tactical Group. He told us that the Lieutenant

16 Colonel Stevan Nikolic, the commander, told him that he has some

17 intelligence information that in 48 hours, the Croat and Muslim forces,

18 with the assistance of Croat and Muslim units from Samac would occupy

19 Samac and that Lieutenant Colonel Nikolic, with his 17th Tactical Group

20 would prevent this incursion, from the direction of Croatia towards Samac.

21 Q. Thank you. Did he provide you any details of how that was

22 expected to happen? How it was going to be prevented?

23 A. As far as I recall, he said that he would jointly, with the army,

24 he would prevent this incursion, with the mobilised soldiers from this

25 area and that he insists from us that in the Crisis Staff, Fadil Topcagic

Page 9079

1 become a member of the Crisis Staff and that on the 16th in the evening,

2 it means the next day in the evening, members of the Crisis Staff be

3 together in Crkvina in the youth centre, and when he completes this

4 military part, that then the representatives of the civil authorities make

5 a proclamation to the public in order to -- not to show this as a military

6 putsch or -- and in order to avoid the mistake which was made six or seven

7 days earlier in the town of Modrica.

8 Q. Can you explain to the Chamber when the significance of that is?

9 What was he trying to it avoid? Can you explain what had happened in

10 Modrica as far as you understand and what he was hoping to avoid this time

11 in Bosanski Samac?

12 A. As far as I knew, six or seven days earlier, before -- prior to

13 the 17th of April, Stevan Nikolic, as commander of this tactical group,

14 with combat -- armoured combat vehicles, occupied, took over, some vital

15 facilities in that town, stayed there a day or two, and as he did not

16 succeed in finding a common language with the civilian authorities of that

17 town, he had -- he withdrew from Modrica with his formations, or he was

18 thrown out by the Croat or -- and Muslim armed units, so he really faced a

19 debacle in Modrica.

20 Q. Thank you. Now, who was telling you this? Was it Nikolic who was

21 telling you this or was it Blagoje Simic who was reporting this to you

22 from what Nikolic had told him at an earlier meeting?

23 A. Prior to the 17th of April, it was known in this region that this

24 event took place in Modrica, but essentially also how it happened, and

25 Mr. Blagoje Simic on the 15th of April, in the evening, said that Nikolic

Page 9080

1 had some intelligence information, that he will prevent this Croat-Muslim

2 incursion which would be assisted by the local forces in Samac, and that

3 the -- he requests that the civilian authorities be in one place in

4 Crkvina and that when that military operation ends, the representatives of

5 the civilian -- civil authorities then turn, address with a proclamation

6 the townspeople and the inhabitants of Samac.

7 Q. And what was your understanding of who the civilian authorities

8 were to be?

9 A. Well, I understood that these were civilian authorities of the

10 newly formed Serbian municipality of Bosanski Samac, and Pelagicevo, which

11 was officially called Pelagicevo Municipality that is in the process of

12 being created.

13 Q. Thank you. Did you receive any personal instructions?

14 A. I did not receive any particular ones, except that in that night

15 between the 16th and the 17th, I should be in Crkvina in this location

16 where Nikolic suggested we should all be.

17 Q. Who gave you those instructions?

18 A. Well, Simic, Blagoje Simic, when he came back from this meeting,

19 he said that Commander Nikolic insisted that the President Blagoje,

20 myself, as Chief of Police, then also Milos Bogdanovic should all be

21 there, that we should all be there, and that then the next day we should

22 address people and that we should try to make sure that the government

23 still worked with regard to health care, utility, activities and all the

24 other things that civilian authorities were supposed to take care of, and

25 Milos Bogdanovic was there as -- because he worked at the municipal

Page 9081

1 section of the Ministry of Defence.

2 Q. I see. So you correct me if I'm wrong, was there some attempt at

3 unifying civilian -- a civilian effort with a military effort? In other

4 words to having civilian authorities ready to take -- to go into action

5 along with the military ones?

6 A. Well, it's -- I don't know how to make this connection. The

7 command of the tactical group had, as a task, to prevent the incursion of

8 these units, and the representatives of the civilian authorities had to

9 take care of civilian issues, utilities, for example, and other things

10 like that.

11 Q. Did you have the understanding that you, the civilian authorities,

12 would work in tandem with the military authorities?

13 A. Well, there were some issues that we had in common, but the

14 authorities were divided, the authorities of the civilian authorities and

15 of the military command, the jurisdictions, the jurisdictions were

16 separate, so to speak.

17 Q. I'm not following you there. What do you mean by the civilian

18 authorities being divided?

19 A. Don't know how else to put it. I think that I said that the

20 responsibilities and the tasks were divided between the civilian

21 authorities and the military command. The civilian authorities themselves

22 were not divided. They only had certain things under their jurisdiction,

23 such as utility work, then health care and other things, and the military

24 command had to take care of all the military issues.

25 Q. Okay. Thank you. Did you, the next night, go to Crkvina?

Page 9082

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What time?

3 A. As far as I can remember, I arrived in Crkvina at around 1.00

4 after midnight, so 1.00 a.m.

5 Q. Had you received instructions that that was the time to arrive at

6 that time?

7 A. I don't remember that it was said what time we should arrive, but

8 I got there around midnight and some other people were already there in

9 this location.

10 Q. Can you tell us who was there in Crkvina?

11 A. Except for me, there was also Mirko Jovanovic, the president of

12 the executive board; Blagoje Simic; Mitar Mitarvic; I think that Milos

13 Bogdanovic was there from time to time as well. He wasn't there the whole

14 night. And there were some other people from the village of Crkvina.

15 Q. Do you know a man named Bozo Ninkovic?

16 A. Yes, I know Bozo Ninkovic and I think he was also there that night

17 in Crkvina.

18 Q. These people you just mentioned, we know Blagoje Simic was the

19 President of the Crisis Staff. What about Mitar Mitrovic? Was he ever on

20 the Crisis Staff?

21 A. Mitar Mitrovic was also a member of the Crisis Staff, and later,

22 he became the secretary. He dealt with legal issues in the municipality.

23 Q. Thank you. What about Bogdanovic? Was he ever on the Crisis

24 Staff?

25 A. Yes, from the beginning, he was a member of the Crisis Staff from

Page 9083

1 the very beginning, and then a couple of months.

2 Q. And what about Bozo Ninkovic? Was he on the Crisis Staff?

3 A. At that time, Bozo Ninkovic was not a member of the Crisis Staff,

4 but he was the deputy or the assistant of Milos Bogdanovic in the

5 municipal section of the Ministry of Defence.

6 Q. Thanks. Do you know a man named Simeon Simic?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 Q. Was he there?

9 A. I think he was also there that night.

10 Q. And did he have any role in the Crisis Staff?

11 A. Yes. He was also a member of the Crisis Staff.

12 Q. Through -- right from the beginning, from the 16th and 17th of

13 April? Or did he come in later?

14 A. I'm not sure that he was there from the beginning but I do know

15 that he was there later, May maybe, but I'm not sure whether he was a

16 member that particular night. However, he was a member later on.

17 Q. Thank you. Did you see any paramilitaries?

18 A. Yes. I saw them around 2.30 that morning or that night rather,

19 the night between the 16th and the 17th.

20 Q. And how did -- how were they travelling? How did they get there?

21 A. As far as I know, they arrived in small civilian trucks,

22 three-tonne trucks with a tarpaulin.

23 Q. They were already in their camouflage gear and faces painted and

24 so on, armed?

25 A. They came in uniform, they were armed, and they made some

Page 9084

1 additional preparations there, and I saw some of them putting paint on

2 their faces. They were painting their faces.

3 Q. Did they need any assistance or guidance to that -- that evening,

4 the paramilitaries?

5 A. Since these 30 men were not from Samac, they didn't know the town

6 and they needed guides who would show them certain buildings in the town.

7 Q. And were there such guides there? If so, who were they?

8 A. There were guides there. I remember two of them that I saw that

9 night. One of them was called Dimitrije Ivanovski, nicknamed "Buco,"

10 he was also a member of the 4th Detachment, and I also saw Fadil Topcagic,

11 who was also a member of the 4th Detachment. I saw the two of them.

12 There might have been more but I don't remember anybody else. I don't

13 remember seeing anybody else.

14 Q. At some point did the paramilitaries take off with Fadil Topcagic

15 and Buco to go off towards the town of Bosanski Samac?

16 A. Yes. Shortly thereafter, they did. They didn't stay there very

17 long and they left in these small civilian trucks towards the town with

18 their guides.

19 Q. Were there any maps that you saw that night?

20 A. Yes. That night, somebody -- I don't remember who, might have

21 been Crni, but somebody gave me a copy of the town of Samac on a paper,

22 size A3. There were some arrows on this map and there was a stamp of the

23 17th Tactical Group, and also the signature of the Lieutenant Colonel

24 Stevan Nikolic, and I also remember that it was indicated that this

25 document was sent to the 1st and 2nd Detachment, also the police, and two

Page 9085

1 or three other institutions. I was told that Lieutenant Colonel Nikolic

2 sent one copy to me personally, and I kept this copy.

3 Q. In subsequent years, did that find itself up on the wall

4 anywhere? Was it kept anywhere?

5 A. Yes. This map that I received was in one of the offices on the

6 wall of one of the offices of the police station as a historical

7 document. It was there for about a year, year and a half.

8 Q. Thank you. Did Crni say anything about what they were going to

9 do?

10 A. In this short time, during this night, Crni said that they were

11 going to take over the vital buildings in the town, the police station,

12 the Sava Bridge, and I think his group also took the building of the

13 memorial centre where the local radio was located. I remember that he

14 told me this before they left for the town.

15 Q. What was your role? What was -- what were you doing there that

16 night? What was your job as these events unfolded?

17 A. Well, my job was as follows: Two or three times during that

18 night, I drove from Crkvina to Obudovac to call these reserve officers who

19 were Serbs, after this action activity was over, these police officers

20 were supposed to come to the police station and keep guard there and also

21 to guard other buildings in the town.

22 Q. Did you succeed in doing that?

23 A. Well, I succeeded but the next day in the afternoon, after several

24 trips and some verbal interventions, I managed to gather around 30 reserve

25 officers and I brought them to the town itself, into the police station.

Page 9086

1 Q. Who looked after the police station in the intervening period,

2 that is until the next afternoon when you could get the sufficient police

3 officers there?

4 A. Before my policemen, my local policemen from Samac arrived, the

5 police station was looked after by these special unit members who came

6 from Serbia.

7 Q. By the following afternoon, was the whole operation reasonably

8 complete, the town was reasonably secure, and taken over?

9 A. The vital buildings were taken but not the whole town, so the Sava

10 Bridge, the police station, the memorial centre where Radio Samac was

11 located, the silo, the Bosna Bridge and the post office. That's as far as

12 I remember. Those were the institutions taken that day. And later, there

13 was -- there were cleanup operations in the rest of the town.

14 Q. Was -- were the telephone lines still functioning?

15 A. As far as I know, members of the 4th Detachment that controlled

16 the post office had as a task to disconnect all phones at 3.00, that is to

17 say the night between the 16th and 17th, and for several hours, not one

18 single phone in the municipality was functioning.

19 Q. Thank you. Were there any situation conferences or meetings with

20 yourself and other civilian authorities, other military men, throughout

21 the day, to -- this is throughout the day of the 17th, to discuss how

22 progress was going, what progress was being made, rather?

23 A. Sometime in the evening hours of the 17th, late afternoon or

24 evening hours, there was a meeting held, a meeting of the Crisis Staff.

25 Q. Was that attended by yourself and Blagoje Simic?

Page 9087

1 A. I attended one portion of that meeting. Although from that moment

2 on, the Crisis Staff was continually in meetings. Some members would

3 leave and go about their jobs, and coordinate the work of their

4 institutions, and other members of the Crisis Staff would continually be

5 in this office. People even slept there during the first month.

6 Q. So the Crisis Staff was the recipient of all sorts of information

7 coming in about what was going on in Bosanski Samac?

8 A. As far as I know, all the information that had to do with the

9 civilian issues. They also received information about what was going on

10 in general, but all the military information were sent to the command of

11 the tactical group in Pelagicevo.

12 Q. I'm not so much interested at this stage in the military

13 information. I'm more interested in the -- what you call information

14 relating to civilian issues. That -- were people reporting to the Crisis

15 Staff about what was going on within the town? Were you providing reports

16 to the Crisis Staff about what you were up to, how the situation was going

17 with police and security, that sort of thing?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And did other Crisis Staff members do the same as you were doing,

20 providing information as to what they were up to in their particular

21 fields of administration and responsibility?

22 A. Yes, but they were informed -- they were informing the Crisis

23 Staff only about the main and most important issues. They did not inform

24 the Crisis Staff about details.

25 Q. Thank you. You say that the silos had been taken over. Were

Page 9088

1 there ever snipers positioned on top of the silos?

2 A. Yes. As far as I know, from the very beginning, and I also

3 received information that even before April 17th, there were people there

4 and also that some weapons were placed on top -- up on top of the silos.

5 Q. What was your source of information regarding the snipers on top

6 of the silos?

7 A. As far as I can remember, I had two kinds of information. The

8 first piece I got from Mr. Dako Misic, who was responsible for technical

9 security of this agricultural company that the silo is a part of, and he

10 said that 4th Detachment members of Mr. Zaric changed locks a few days

11 earlier on the silo and then later, about a month or two Mr. Simo Zaric

12 told me this himself, that they had earlier brought weapons up to the top

13 of the silo and that locks had been changed on certain doors in the silo.

14 Q. Just in case it's not absolutely clear to the Chamber, what's the

15 significance of the changing of locks at the silos?

16 A. Excuse me, since at that time the manager of the silos was Marko

17 Bozanovic, who was a Croat and a reserve captain, and he was also the

18 commander of the Croatian and Muslim Territorial Defence, this changing

19 was done without his knowledge. That is to say illegally. So that that

20 night, people could enter the premises and go up to the top of the silo

21 without asking for the real keys from the porter, and because -- and also

22 the silo was the tallest building in the entire region, and from the top

23 of the silo you had a very good view and a very good command of the

24 surrounding area.

25 Q. All right. Now, I'm interested in what Simo Zaric had to say to

Page 9089

1 you about that. You said he discussed this matter with you about a month

2 or two after. Was this at some point after the 16th and 17th of April,

3 obviously?

4 A. Yes. As far as I can remember, this was late May, early June. He

5 said, "We have -- we put some weapons up there earlier, some members of

6 the 4th Detachment did this. We put some weapons up on the top of the

7 silos and we also changed the locks."

8 Q. How did he come to say this to you? Was it in the course of some

9 sort of report? Was it over drinks or was it a -- in passing? I just

10 want to know in what context it was that he said this to you.

11 A. This was not an official report. At that time, people were

12 talking about who had contributed the most to the liberation, and he was

13 saying, "It's not these ones with colourful uniforms. It was us who did

14 this. We changed the locks, we had the weapons, and we had brought the

15 weapons up to the silo maybe about 20 or 30 days before." And this was

16 just a private conversation that we had.

17 Q. All right. Mr. Todorovic, I just want to show you some

18 documents. I want to produce to you this document.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, Defence counsel will know

20 of it as C11 in the exhibit list. If Your Honours please, while we are

21 waiting for the document to be presented, I don't know what your schedule

22 is this afternoon. Do you want to keep going straight through to 5.30?

23 JUDGE MUMBA: No, we are sitting to 17 hours, it's one and a half

24 hours.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: I see. Thank you.

Page 9090

1 Q. Okay, Mr. Todorovic, would you please have a look at that

2 document?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you recall that document?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. It's got a Crisis Staff stamp on it but no apparent signature.

7 Was it nonetheless a Crisis Staff decision that was issued? Order, I

8 should say.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. How was this order publicised or made known to those to whom it

11 was directed?

12 A. I'm not sure, but I think it was broadcast on the local radio. I

13 remember, however, that there was also a loud speaker used, not the entire

14 order was read out but it was said through this loudspeaker that if --

15 whoever handed over their weapons in the next two hours, they would not

16 have any problems. It was also said that the members of paramilitary

17 Croatian and Muslim formations should hand over their weapons. And this

18 was all said through the loudspeaker. It might also have been broadcast

19 on the local radio but I'm not completely sure about that.

20 Q. Thank you. The document says that in paragraph -- just withdraw

21 that question. Would Your Honours just bear with me?



24 Q. All right. Sorry.

25 Q. Mr. Todorovic, the document says that the weapons and equipment

Page 9091

1 have to be taken into the municipal crisis headquarters. That is the

2 public security station. Do you see that?

3 A. [no interpretation]

4 Q. What is the reference there municipal crisis headquarters? Is

5 that any particular body or is it the Crisis Staff? I just don't

6 understand what the municipal crisis headquarters are.

7 A. Probably it refers to the premises of the Crisis Staff but as far

8 as I know, all the weapons handed over were taken -- were taken and

9 delivered by people to the public security station. I don't know that

10 anybody took it to the Crisis Staff.

11 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honours, it is not my intention to interfere.

12 Maybe just one suggestion. Maybe our learned friend can ask the witness

13 just it read this paragraph 2 and then maybe it's a problem, I think it's

14 a problem with translation. I guess. So maybe in order to clarify that

15 issue maybe he can read paragraph 2 and then we'll see about what it is.

16 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Before you do that, Mr. Di Fazio, I think the

17 witness has already assisted on this issue, because he said, as far as he

18 knew, the weapons were taken to the public security station. And in fact

19 that's what the paragraph says, as you can see.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: That is true.

21 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Municipal crisis headquarters, that is to the

22 public security station.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm grateful Your Honour it's a question of not

24 being able to see the wood for the trees. I'm sorry I should have just

25 read on. I don't think I need to clarify anything further. In fact I

Page 9092

1 tender the document into evidence.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number, please?

3 THE REGISTRAR: It will be P77 ter for the B/C/S and P77 for the

4 English version, Your Honours, thank you.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic?

6 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honours, I have a no objection for the

7 admissibility but to the authenticity, just for the record, because we

8 don't know who is the author of this document and also of course, we shall

9 have possibility in cross-examination to clarify this issue, also I have

10 the objection to the translation of the English version of this document,

11 which is absolutely contrary to what was said in B/C/S language, but my

12 friend left that topic and it will be up to us to clarify that in

13 cross-examination. Thank you.


15 Q. Just one matter, Mr. Todorovic, I'll show you the document again

16 if you need to but there was a stamp on there. Did you recognise it?

17 That is on P77. Did you recognise it as a Crisis Staff stamp? If you

18 don't, can't remember, I'll show you the document again but do you

19 remember the stamp?

20 A. If you could show it to me once again, if it's not a problem.

21 Q. No, no. I'm sorry, I apologise for not directing your attention

22 to it.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: Could the witness please be shown Exhibit P77?

24 Q. Look at the original, if you need to. You don't have to

25 necessarily look at it on the television.

Page 9093

1 A. I will not be, I hope, repeating myself again. I'm not a

2 handwriting specialist but it does look like the stamp of the Crisis

3 Staff.

4 Q. Thank you. I would ask you now to look at this other document

5 that I produce to you. And if Your Honours please, Defence counsel will

6 know of this document as C52.

7 Just acquaint yourself with the document, please. Okay. Have you

8 had a chance to look at the document?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. This one has a different stamp. Can you tell us what the stamp

11 is?

12 A. It says the Serb Autonomous District of Semberija and Majevica.

13 Q. Thinking back to that time, is that what the -- let me rephrase my

14 question. Were you familiar with that stamp, that is the stamp of the

15 Serb or Serbian Autonomous District of Semberija and Majevica?

16 A. Let me say that I had few or none documents -- no document with

17 such a stamp at the time. But I did know that -- of the existence of the

18 Serb Autonomous District of Semberija and Majevica.

19 Q. Thank you. Do you know who the -- who this Stjepanovic mentioned

20 at the bottom of the document is?

21 A. I heard that Mr. -- That person, Mr. Stjepanovic was the

22 President of the Serbian Autonomous District of Semberija and Majevica.

23 Q. Do you know what his first name was?

24 A. I don't know exactly but I do remember the surname, Stjepanovic.

25 Maybe Milan, but I do know that it was -- that it's Stjepanovic.

Page 9094

1 Q. Thank you. And were people required, as this document says, to

2 hand over even legally owned weapons?

3 A. This is what is contained in this decision.

4 Q. Yes. What I'm asking you is can you recall that people obeyed

5 this decision, came in and started handing over their legally owned

6 weapons?

7 A. Yes. I do remember that people were handing over their legally

8 owned weapons. That is pistols, for which they had a permit, as well as

9 for hunting weapons, not all of them, but some did come in with these.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: I produce the document into evidence.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, can we have the numbers, please?

12 THE REGISTRAR: It will be P78 ter for the B/C/S version and P78

13 for the English version, Your Honours. Thank you.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the witness be shown Exhibit P36, please?

15 Q. First of all, can you identify the signature on the document?

16 A. This is my signature.

17 Q. Do you know who gave you that document to sign? Did you create it

18 or did someone give it to you?

19 A. As far as I can recall, this document was drafted by the legal

20 expert, Mitar Mitrovic, but I signed it.

21 Q. What do you mean "legal expert, Mitar Mitrovic"? Was he a

22 lawyer?

23 A. Yes. He finished law school. He was a lawyer in the Crisis

24 Staff, a member of the Crisis Staff, and he had a law degree.

25 Q. Was he charged with -- sorry, did he have the responsibility for

Page 9095

1 dealing with legal matters that the Crisis Staff might be interested in?

2 And also providing legal advice to the Crisis Staff?

3 A. Well, he was a lawyer in the Crisis Staff. However, as the lady

4 who was dealing with administrative affairs in the station, I believe it

5 was he who drafted the document, typed it, and I signed it. So I stand

6 behind the document.

7 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Di Fazio, I'm afraid I don't have

8 that particular exhibit P36 in front of me. Do you think you could have

9 the -- we could have the English version just put on the ELMO for a moment

10 just so that we know what the document is that the witness signed?

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, I'm sorry, I didn't realise.

12 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I don't have that particular one with me today.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: I apologise for that. We will just attend to that

14 now, if Your Honours please.

15 THE REGISTRAR: It's already on the ELMO, Mr. Di Fazio.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Oh, okay. Thank you.

17 Q. Did people come to you and get your written consent as it says

18 they must in paragraph 1? If they wanted to get into and out of the

19 town?

20 A. Well, they would be coming mainly Serbs who wished to go and visit

21 their people in Serbia. They would come for this written consent, in

22 order to be able to leave, go and visit, and then return.

23 Q. Would you attend to it each such application or did you sign

24 numerous consents for them to leave the town?

25 A. Well, I didn't deal with each individual application, but if

Page 9096

1 somebody had a wounded brother or son, they would receive such a written

2 consent, and they could go for two or three days, to go and visit.

3 Q. It refers to checkpoints being established. Were there

4 checkpoints set up around the town soon after the 17th of April? Or

5 indeed from the 17th of April?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did Mitar Mitrovic explain to you that -- or say to you who was

8 the author of this document? I know that he said that he produced it, he

9 gave it to you, but did he say whose idea it was? Was this it a Crisis

10 Staff decision or was it his own idea? Have you got any idea -- do you

11 have any knowledge as to that?

12 A. I don't know in concrete terms what exactly happened. I know I

13 signed this. I know that the checkpoints were set up. And that the

14 police station, which I was heading, we issued these written permits. But

15 how the document was drafted, I couldn't tell you precisely.

16 Q. You said that Serbs, people of Serbian ethnic origin, might want

17 to leave town, go and visit relatives, possibly relatives who had been

18 wounded. Were Muslims and Croats permitted in the same way to leave the

19 town?

20 A. Well, some Muslims or Croats who had also members in the 4th

21 Detachment, they -- if they requested, they could get such consent, but as

22 far as I know, Muslims, primarily, or it particularly Croats, couldn't

23 enter Serbia because the Serbian authorities didn't allow them to enter

24 Serbia.

25 Q. Did that effectively mean that they were imprisoned in the town?

Page 9097

1 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, I must object. I must object. This

2 is absolutely leading question calling for conclusions which are

3 absolutely beyond the standards of the examination-in-chief. Many, many

4 ways how this question can be posed.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It's a leading question, Mr. Di Fazio.


7 Q. What was the effect of this order on Muslims and Croats who

8 weren't in the 4th Detachment?

9 A. Well, let me say that those who were not -- I remember a lady, a

10 Muslim lady, who wanted to see her children and they were not in the 4th

11 Detachment and she received the certificate and she went to Serbia to see

12 her children. But the reason for drafting such an order was to prevent

13 the soldiers, Serb soldiers, from deserting this territory.

14 Q. Thank you. I'd like to show you another document now.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Defence council will know of it as C13. Do Your

16 Honours have copies of that document?


18 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

19 Q. Mr. Todorovic, I'll quickly take you through this document. It's

20 an announcement, and it refers to the Territorial Defence of the Serbian

21 municipality of Bosanski Samac preventing green berets and paramilitary

22 units coming in from Croatia. Do you see that?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. What's the reference to the Territorial Defence of the Serbian

25 Municipality of Bosanski Samac? So far in your evidence you've described

Page 9098

1 the activities of your police, the 4th Detachment, and the paramilitaries.

2 But I haven't heard you refer to a Territorial Defence of the Serbian

3 Municipality. What therefore is the document talking about when it uses

4 that expression, Territorial Defence?

5 A. During the course of the first or the second month, more than one

6 term was used for one formation, and in this part here, Territorial

7 Defence of the Serbian Municipality of Bosanski Samac, it refers to the

8 4th, 3rd, 2nd and 1st detachments. I think it refers to that formation,

9 but here in the document, it's described as Territorial Defence of the

10 Serbian Municipality of Bosanski Samac.

11 Q. Yes. The document is presumably directed to the citizens of

12 Bosanski Samac. That's what it says in fact in the first line. The --

13 other than the 4th Detachment, those other detachments, the 3rd, 2nd and

14 1st, they didn't participate in the takeover of the town, did they?

15 A. In addition to the 4th Detachment, as far as I know, also the 2nd

16 Detachment participated, because it was located close by but the 1st and

17 the 3rd did not but I do know that the 4th and the 2nd participated.

18 Q. Was the 2nd Detachment based in Crkvina?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And that in fact is where you held the meeting on the night of the

21 16th, right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. How was this document that I have just shown you made known to the

24 people?

25 A. As far as I can recall, this document was read out via the local

Page 9099

1 radio station, Radio Samac.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I produce the document into

3 evidence.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- A number of times.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, can we have the number, please.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours it will be P79 ter for the B/C/S and

7 P79 for the English version. Thank you.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic?

9 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honours, according to the position of the

10 Defence, in the Pre-Trial face of course and now we have objection to the

11 authenticity of this document, in details that the heading of this

12 particular document was not typed, it was written by person, we don't know

13 who and when, and the other objections with regard to the -- this

14 particular issue are still in force so that the Prosecution can explain us

15 in further proceedings chain of custody, et cetera. Thank you.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: May I just have a moment to confer with my

17 colleague about this matter if Your Honours please?


19 [Prosecution counsel confer]

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Thank you. If Your Honours please, as far as

21 this particular document is concerned, I think Ms. Reidy will be able

22 to -- I hope Ms. Reidy will be able to produce some documentation relating

23 to Defence acceptance of this document in the past. Be that as it may,

24 however, it's unnecessary, I submit, for Mr. Pantelic to announce each

25 time a document goes in that he has doubts about its authenticity. He can

Page 9100

1 attack it through the witness when his -- the time comes for his

2 cross-examination. But as I said, Ms. Reidy will look into the matter and

3 be able to inform the Chamber if there has been an acceptance of its

4 authenticity in the past.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: So we wait until that is done?

6 MR. DI FAZIO: No, no. I seek its full admission now.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Yes, I think the matters raised can be

8 dealt with in the later proceedings and we will certainly go to the weight

9 to it be attached to the document. Yes, Mr. Pantelic?

10 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour, I'm just referring to the letter

11 that we sent to the Prosecution, and I'm going through that list, that's

12 only for the record. I'm absolutely agree with the position of Trial

13 Chamber. We know we are well aware that we shall discuss that in our

14 case, it's just for the record. It's a matter of record, nothing more.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. What you --

16 MR. PANTELIC: I didn't have any other intention.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: I see. All right. We will adjourn now until

18 tomorrow at 9.00.

19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

20 5.00 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,

21 the 7 day of June, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.