1 Friday, 5 July 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case number
8 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Miroslav Tadic, and Simo
9 Zaric. Thank you.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: The proceedings will continue under Rule 15 bis in
11 the absence of Judge Williams, on account of personal reasons.
12 Cross-examination is continuing, Mr. Pisarevic.
13 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
14 WITNESS: OSMAN JASAREVIC [Resumed]
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 Cross-examined by Mr. Pisarevic: [Continued]
17 Q. Good morning, Mr. Jasarevic. Yesterday, when we were talking, we
18 also discussed the incident when -- involving three civilians in a
19 civilian vehicle were seriously injured by reserve policemen. You said
20 that you arrived immediately after the event occurred. Do you remember
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 Q. In connection with that event, I have only two more questions.
24 Did you then find out -- were you informed that the reserve policemen who
25 had shot the civilian, the civilian automobile, were Izetbegovic Adis and
1 Sead [Realtime transcript read in error "Safet"] Srna?
2 A. I did not see who shot.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] A correction. Srna Sead. I said
5 Srna Sead not Srna Safet, as it has been entered in the transcript. This
6 is the correction. Thank you.
7 JUDGE MUMBA: It will be corrected.
8 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 Q. Are you aware of the fact that after that event, Izetbegovic Adis,
10 and Srna Sead fled to the Republic of Croatia?
11 A. I don't know whether they fled to the Republic of Croatia.
12 Possibly they did.
13 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to -- P129 ter be
14 placed in front of the witness. I notice that this statement is not in
15 front of the witness, so I would kindly ask for it to be placed in front
16 of him.
17 Q. Please turn to page 4, item 19. Did you find it? Page 4,
18 paragraph 19. Did you find it? Thank you.
19 Here you claim, in the last sentence, that the Serb forces also
20 blew up the bridge over Sava five months before the attack on Bosanski
21 Samac, as well as downed the power lines. The Serbs themselves were
22 saying publicly that they had done this. This is your statement, isn't
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. As here you have used the expression "the Serb forces," I would
1 ask you to explain to the Trial Chamber what you understand under -- with
2 this term "Serb forces."
3 A. The 4th Detachment and the then JNA.
4 Q. Thank you. Mr. Jasarevic, you were not a witness of the blowing
5 up of the bridge over the river Sava?
6 A. No, I was not.
7 Q. You don't even know the exact date when this event took place?
8 A. I do not know it.
9 Q. Will you agree with my assertion that this event took place on the
10 5th of February, 1992?
11 A. It is possible.
12 Q. Is the fact known to you that at the time - it means in the course
13 of 1992 - that this bridge over the river Sava was protected by the
14 special police forces of the Ministry of Interior of the Republic of
15 Bosnia and Herzegovina?
16 A. I don't know which forces, but I do know that these were forces of
17 Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bosnian police.
18 Q. You also stated here that the Serbs themselves publicly claimed
19 that they had done this. Can you tell us here, in the Trial Chamber, the
20 names and surnames of those Serbs who were boasting that they blew up the
22 A. I do not recall, but I remember that while I was in prison in
23 Brcko, that they were saying how they blew up the bridge, as well as
24 downed the power lines.
25 Q. Now, please let us move to item 20 and -- on page 5. In item 20,
1 you claim, the last sentence: "The people of the 4th Detachment were the
2 checkpoint Crkvina and I knew these people myself personally"?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can you say who were these people for whom you knew that were
5 members of the 4th Detachment and were the checkpoint in Crkvina?
6 A. They were Simo Vladic [as interpreted] and others, who were in
7 uniforms and were the checkpoint in Crkvina?
8 Q. Could you please -- could you tell this Trial Chamber how far is
9 the village of Crkvina far from Bosanski Samac?
10 A. It is five kilometres from Bosanski Samac.
11 Q. You will agree with me that Miko Sucin and Tesic Cvikan, that
12 they lived in Samac, didn't they?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Will you agree with my claim that they were members of another
15 [as interpreted] detachment of the JNA?
16 A. I don't know to which they belonged, but they were always in the
17 Cafe AS, and it was from there that they went on duty.
18 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, I have one clarification for the
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
21 MR. LAZAREVIC: When Mr. Pisarevic said: "Would you agree that
22 they were members --" well, here it's stated "another detachment" in the
23 transcript. Actually, what Mr. Pisarevic said, if they were members
24 of 2nd Detachment. In our language, it is the same: "Second" and
25 "another" is the same word for it. But in this situation the meaning of
1 this was the 2nd Detachment, so it's just that clarification for the
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pisarevic. That will be corrected.
4 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Could you determine, give a time frame, if you can recall, when
6 did this happen?
7 A. In the month of January, February, March, beginning of April.
8 Q. Which event? What happened?
9 A. At this -- at the checkpoint I said I couldn't remember this all
10 took place ten years ago. However, I did see them.
11 Q. Please look at --
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Counsel, do remember to pause, because the
13 record does get confused. When the witness is answering, pause after
14 he has finished so that the interpretation is completed.
15 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I shall attempt to do so, Your
17 Q. Please look at item 24 of your statement, and in the last line you
18 said -- you stated that you're not a member of any political party.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you, a year earlier, in April 1991, sign the enrollment slip
21 for the Party of Democratic Action?
22 A. No. I've signed no application whatsoever.
23 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, in the police station, on the 26th of April, 1992,
24 say to Inspector Savic, during the interrogation, did you say that
25 somewhere in April 1991 that you signed an application for SDA, that you
1 signed that in a state of intoxication, and that your wife had then torn
2 up this application form at home?
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy?
4 A. I had to say that.
5 MS. REIDY: Thank you, Your Honour. It appears from counsel's
6 question that he is referring to a very specific document. He can tell us
7 the date, who the alleged statement taker was, and the contents. To the
8 best of my knowledge, we don't have that document, and if Defence counsel
9 have it and are using it, they've never disclosed it to us, although
10 they are engaged in the procedure of reciprocal discovery. So I would
11 like to get clarification from Defence counsel if they do in fact have
12 this document. It would appear from the question Mr. Pisarevic is quoting
13 from, or at least selecting information from.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Mr. Pisarevic, is it a document or are these
15 your instructions from your client?
16 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, these are the
17 instructions I received from not my client but my investigators, who, from
18 the inspector Milos Savic stated -- who claims that Mr. Jasarevic stated
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] However, you do know that I do not
21 drink alcohol [as interpreted].
22 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. I never claimed. I only asked whether you stated that or not.
24 A. In that situation, I signed and stated whatever they asked me to
1 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Yes, Ms. Reidy. Is there any --
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic, I didn't give you permission, and
3 you're asking -- Prosecution.
4 MR. PANTELIC: I do apologise. Yes. Yes. Sorry. Can I proceed,
5 Your Honour? It's a clarification in the transcript.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: What is it?
7 MR. PANTELIC: It's page 6, line 20. Witness said: "Yes." And
8 then: "However, you do know that I do not drink alcohol." So it was
9 "yes" and then "however." I don't want to seek with any clarification
10 what the witness said. We have everything on the audiotape, so we can do
11 that afterwards. It's just for the record. Thank you.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pisarevic, please clarify the answer which the
13 witness gave with the witness.
14 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. If I understood you correctly, Witness, you gave such a statement
16 to Milos Savic, but you had to do that.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You also stated that you do not drink.
19 A. Yes. I don't drink, and I never got intoxicated.
20 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, will that suffice?
21 JUDGE MUMBA: It's okay, yes.
22 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. And now let us turn to paragraph 25, where you speak about the
24 organisation of guards and about the incident which happened in the
25 Valentino Cafe. Yes, that was it, wasn't it? Can we agree that the area
1 where the Muslims lived in the municipality of Samac, that it was only the
2 town of Bosanski Samac?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can we agree that Muslims organised their guards and patrols only
5 in the town of Bosanski Samac?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You mentioned the event in Cafe Valentino.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And which, according to you, happened in February 1992.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you also mentioned the expression that in that cafe, Enver
12 Bobic and Mensur Hadzialijagic were killed there.
13 A. That is how it was translated, and later in my statement I say
14 that they activated the hand grenade.
15 Q. Can we agree that it happened as an accident?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Can you also confirm that this event happened on the 14th of
18 February, 1992? It is somewhere in the middle of February?
19 A. It's possible, but I already mentioned about these dates ten years
21 Q. Now, on that occasion there was also -- another person was
22 seriously wounded, namely, Pavlovic Gordana, a Serb woman, who was the
23 girlfriend of Bobic Enver?
24 A. Yes, I know that. I spoke only about the dead, and there was
25 more -- there were a few people wounded.
1 Q. You were in front of the police station in Bosanski Samac?
2 A. Yes, I was.
3 Q. There, in front of the police station in Bosanski Samac, many
4 people have gathered, mainly members from the Muslim ethnic group?
5 A. Well, there were many people there, but I don't know what about
6 the people from the 4th Detachment. People of all ethnicities.
7 Q. Thank you. Do you remember that then many who were present of the
8 inhabitants there publicly accused Serbs and the JNA?
9 A. I know what was happening in front of the SUP. As far as the rest
10 goes, I don't know.
11 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, I'm asking you what was happening in front of the
12 SUP, where you were.
13 A. That was the event on the basis of which the 4th Detachment would
14 take over the police.
15 Q. Were they accused or weren't they accused?
16 A. They were not.
17 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, on that occasion you were publicly speaking in
18 front of the public that Serbs and the JNA had perpetrated that?
19 A. I never stated that. It's not the truth.
20 Q. According to my sources of information, you, on that occasion,
21 went up the steps of the staircase of the police station and you publicly
22 spoke out against Serbs and the JNA, and also invited for the people to go
23 against these -- the Serbs and JNA.
24 A. This is an ordinary provocation, and it's a lie. It's not true.
25 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, were you standing on the stairs of the police
1 station together with Paradzic Blaz?
2 A. I did not see Paradzic Blaz. I was together with
3 Nusret Hadzijusufovic and I don't know whether I was on the steps.
4 Q. So you claim that on that occasion, you did not curse the Serbs'
5 mothers, you did not call them Chetniks, and did not call people to rally
6 against Serbs and the JNA?
7 A. I never said that. You know who were my friends in Samac? Yes.
8 All my friends in my boyhood days were Serbs.
9 JUDGE MUMBA: There seems to be a problem with the transcript
10 recording. Because instead of question, you know who were my friends from
11 Samac, I thought that's what the witness said. Can we clear this,
12 Mr. Pisarevic?
13 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Let us just clarify your
14 statement, previous statement.
15 Q. You said that your friends in your youth were mainly Serbs.
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, has that been
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You can go ahead.
20 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. As you were there on the spot, can you confirm the fact that this
22 situation in front of the police station in Bosanski Samac calmed down
23 when Hadzialijagic Safet, known as Coner, came out of the police building
24 and addressed the people who rallied there and stated by -- and when he
25 stated that the police is doing its work and when he asked everyone to go
1 peacefully home?
2 A. In my statement, I quoted everything. Who shouted Ustashas --
3 Q. I apologise.
4 A. I, in my statement, also said that I knew that nobody had thrown
5 the bomb, and Coner only confirmed that. I didn't say anything else in
6 connection with that.
7 Q. However, in your statement -- speak that [as interpreted] -- you
8 talked in front of the SUP building with Simo Zaric?
9 A. Yes, I did. I did. We talked.
10 Q. Slowly. However, Mr. Zaric claims that he did not talk to you at
11 all that evening. Yes or no, please.
12 A. I cannot answer with a yes or a no.
13 Q. You've clarified it in your statement, but give me a yes or no
15 A. In the statement, it is clearly stated what kind of a talk we had.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy.
17 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, the witness has said that he spoke with
18 Mr. Zaric. That's his story. He says both on the record and in his
19 statement what passed between him and Mr. Zaric. If Mr. Zaric disagrees
20 with us, that's a matter for the Defence. But it is not for the counsel
21 to put what Mr. Zaric -- saying Mr. Zaric claimed he didn't talk to you at
22 all that evening, yes or no? How does the witness supposed to help us on
23 what Mr. Zaric tells counsel? It's very clear what the witness's position
24 is. So to ask him to say whether or not Mr. Zaric would confirm that is
25 beyond the witness's capacity.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy. I think it's the way it's handled
2 as -- when you're confronting a witness with what your instructions are.
3 I think that was the problem.
4 Yes, Mr. Pisarevic. You can proceed.
5 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 Q. You, Mr. Jasarevic, gave a statement to the Prosecution on the
7 3rd, 4th, and 5th of February, 1995, didn't you?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. In that statement, you stated -- you talked about this event, but
10 nowhere did you mention that you had talked with Mr. Simo Zaric. I will
11 not continue to question you about this, but I would like to --
12 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] May I, Your Honours, say a few
13 words to my distinguished colleagues from the Prosecution?
14 JUDGE MUMBA: About --? Oh, I see. Yes, you can go ahead. You
15 can go ahead.
16 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Can the Office of the Prosecution
17 confirm the statement that in his statement, Mr. Jasarevic never spoke
18 about this event that is in his statement made on February 3, 4, and 5,
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.
21 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, for the record, let me tell you what's in
22 the statement and let the Bench assess it itself about this matter,
23 bearing in mind that when I went back to take the interview in 2001, that
24 is -- I'll tell you what's in the statement. It says: "Before the war,
25 Muslims organised neighbourhood guards or controlled areas near where they
1 lived. Croats did this too to some extent. In a coffee shop once, two
2 young men were killed by a bomb. This prompted the Muslims and Croats
3 living in the area to organise themselves to protect their living areas."
4 I simply explored that further with the witness last May as it
5 became an issue in this trial. Thank you.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Counsel. This is the quotation you are dealing
8 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. This is
9 exactly what I wanted to do. I didn't want this statement to be read to
10 the witness. What I wanted to put to you is the following: In this
11 statement, in no item did Mr. Jasarevic mention that he talked to or that
12 he was in front of the SUP and ever had a conversation with Mr. Simo
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, that is clear from the quotation by Ms. Reidy.
15 Yes, Mr. Pantelic.
16 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Your Honour. Page 12, line 25, for the
17 record, Defence for Mr. Blagoje Simic never received the statement from
18 2001, and I would like to see a clarification from the -- our learned
19 friends from Prosecution. Because we have only 1995 statement and 2002,
20 so it seems to me that it's something a little bit odd. What's actually
22 MS. REIDY: Mr. Pisarevic, it's May 2002. I've mis-spoken, I
23 think it's --
24 JUDGE MUMBA: I don't understand. Mr. Pantelic's request --
25 submission is that they never received this statement from which Mr.
1 Pisarevic is quoting.
2 MS. REIDY: No, no. I'm sorry, Your Honour. Just before it goes
3 off the screen, you'll see I said when I went back to take the interview
4 in 2001. I meant the interview 2002, May 2002.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, I see.
6 MS. REIDY: Mr. Pantelic is now trying to insinuate from my
7 transcript error that I went back and I've had another statement taken in
8 2001, which wasn't disclosed. There are two statements from
9 Mr. Jasarevic, there's the one from 1995 and the one in evidence.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy. All you needed was to explain,
11 because Mr. Pantelic misunderstood from the way it was put.
12 MR. PANTELIC: Everything is possible during trial proceedings,
13 Your Honour. You know we are the witness here. There are many
14 statements. So I don't know. Thank you.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pisarevic, continue.
16 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, you gave this statement. You had already confirmed
18 it. And you made this statement on the basis of your knowledge and
19 recollection; isn't that true?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you tell me how come that you have now been able to come up
22 with new knowledge ten years after the event took place? And I'm
23 referring to this new knowledge, namely, about this conversation with
24 Mr. Zaric, and you had no knowledge of this discussion eight years and two
25 months after the conversation itself?
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy.
2 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, I'd ask counsel to rephrase the
3 question. This knowledge, he's saying it's new knowledge. It is --
4 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no, no, no.
5 MS. REIDY: -- new element to the statement.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: If that's what you're trying to explain, let the
7 witness answer.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my statement, I mentioned that I
9 was there, which had also been confirmed, and that I saw all these events,
10 that I heard it. It was only in greater detail that I described this
11 particular event.
12 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Why didn't you do that on February 3, 4, and 5, 1995?
14 MR. WEINER: I'd object, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
16 MR. WEINER: [Microphone not activated] They're asking him why
17 didn't you do --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.
19 MR. WEINER: Sorry. They're asking him why he didn't take a
20 certain action. In order for them to ask that question first, they have
21 to ask: Was there any discussion about that particular incident? We see
22 from the 1995 statement that he gave a generalised discussion. The next
23 question should be if there was any further discussion relating to that
24 particular incident, which they haven't asked. If they then ask that
25 second question, then they can get to the third question, which is: Why,
1 when they asked you about that particular incident, did you not say those
2 specific things back then? But they're jumping -- they're actually
3 assuming that there was some specific questions concerning that incident
4 and that he failed to answer those back then. There is no evidence,
5 number one, that there was any discussion concerning the Valentino Cafe
6 other than those general references that the examiner didn't come back and
7 say, "Well, let's talk about this" and then ask specific questions. You
8 can't ask a person why they didn't say something if they weren't
9 questioned about it.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: In fairness to the Defence, Mr. Weiner, the Defence
11 is right in assuming that if any matter concerning that event was touched
12 upon, then the witness perhaps would have given further details. And the
13 witness is in a position to answer whether he was asked about the details
14 or not.
15 MR. WEINER: That's -- I totally agree, Your Honour. That's what
16 I feel the next question is. They've gone to a third question? The first
17 question is: You were asked about what happened back then. He said,
18 "Yes, there were several incidents that occurred." The second question is
19 Your Honour's question, where they were asked further details and then you
20 ask the person: Why didn't you give that answer back then? They did not
21 ask if there was any follow-up questions concerning that. They've already
22 gone to the third question, which isn't being fair to the witness.
23 Because now you're almost accusing him of being a liar, which is not
24 fair --
25 JUDGE MUMBA: No. I think you are stretching it too far. I think
1 in fairness to the Defence, let them ask such a question and let the
2 witness explain. The witness was there at the interview. The witness was
3 there at the events.
4 MR. WEINER: All right.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: So let him explain why he didn't give that detail.
6 He's capable of doing that.
7 MR. WEINER: All right.
8 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Witness, you must have had a better recollection in 1995 than you
10 do in the year 2002; would you agree with that?
11 A. Yes, I would.
12 Q. In connection with this incident, may I remind you of some other
13 events? Do you remember that a meeting of the local population was held
14 in the cinema hall in Bosanski Samac in connection with this misfortunate
15 killing of the two young men, the injuring of this girl, and others, as
16 you mentioned it before?
17 A. Yes, but I was not attending this meeting.
18 Q. Thank you. That was my next question. So you did not attend this
19 meeting of the citizens?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Let us proceed to item 27 now. In this item, you stated: "We
22 couldn't see the police; therefore, we decided to do something on our own
23 to protect ourselves." Did I read this out correctly?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. I will now put a few questions to you in connection with this
1 statement. First, can you confirm that the head of the police in Bosanski
2 Samac at that time was Mr. Vinko Dragicevic, of Croat ethnicity? Yes or
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Can you confirm the fact to me that at that time the chief of the
6 criminal department in the police in Bosanski Samac was Dragan Lukac, of
7 Croat ethnicity, from Bosanski Samac?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can you tell this Honourable Chamber: Under this term, we
10 decided, do you understand under this term the SDA party?
11 A. No. The citizens of Bosanski Samac who decided to undertake
12 certain measures in the local community of Bosanski Samac.
13 Q. Yes. And you said a meeting was held of all people. Are you
14 referring to this meeting?
15 A. Yes. In the local community where people of all ethnic
16 backgrounds lived.
17 Q. Can you tell me when approximately this meeting was held?
18 A. I do not recall the date.
19 Q. The month, perhaps, the year?
20 A. Immediately after these incidents. I don't really know. Maybe a
21 month before Samac fell.
22 Q. Who organised this meeting and who signed the invitation to attend
23 this meeting?
24 A. There were no written invitations. I received no invitation in
25 writing whatsoever.
1 Q. Who, in fact, sent out the invitation to attend this meeting in
2 the local commune?
3 A. I do not know who sent out this invitation to attend the meeting
4 in the local commune.
5 Q. Who chaired and led the discussion in this meeting in the local
7 A. It was general chaos. Everybody took the floor. Everybody
8 spoke. I really do not know who was supposed to chair it.
9 Q. I understand you well. In other words, are you saying that you do
10 not know who was chairing and leading the discussion in the course of this
11 meeting held in the local commune?
12 A. Alija Fitozovic did it. In fact, we understood it that he was
13 representing the SDA; therefore, I decided that only the hunters, on their
14 own, will organise themselves and protect the town.
15 Q. You just mentioned this hunters' association, so my next question
16 goes as follows: Was this a municipal organisation? Wasn't it?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be show Exhibit
19 D25/4 ter. Would the usher please show this exhibit to the witness.
20 Q. Could you please turn to Exhibit 8.
21 JUDGE MUMBA: Perhaps the witness should be shown the correct --
22 yes, the correct page.
23 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] This is exhibit or attachment 8.
24 The page is not numbered, but it says on top "exhibit" or "attachment 8."
25 JUDGE MUMBA: So it is attachment 8?
1 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
2 Could you please put it on the ELMO.
3 Q. Would you be kind enough, Witness, to read the title on this
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Read aloud, would you?
7 A. "Department of hunters."
8 Q. Could you now read the next line, please, where it says
9 "commander," et cetera.
10 A. Well, these are the lists that you prepared. We never had a list
11 like that. In my statement, I explained the circumstances relevant to
12 this meeting.
13 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, I simply asked you to read out what is said here.
14 A. I read it out for you.
15 Q. You read only the first line. You didn't read the second line on
16 this document.
17 A. "Department of hunters."
18 Q. What is next?
19 A. "Commander Jasarevic, Hasan." I told you before that you were
20 putting together these lists.
21 Q. Is this phone number here the phone number that belonged to
22 Jasarevic Hasan?
23 A. You have the phone book, and you could check the phone book and
24 take this phone number out of it.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Jasarevic, just answer the questions as put to
1 you by counsel, that's all. Do not say anything else. Just answer the
2 questions put to you by counsel.
3 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. How did you come to this conclusion that somebody else prepared
5 this list?
6 A. Because there were no lists. I explained it in my statement how
7 the meeting was held. There were no lists and there were no phone
9 Q. Can you tell me the following: Is this the phone number that
10 belonged to Mr. Jasarevic Hasan?
11 A. I do not know that.
12 Q. Can we then agree that Mr. Jasarevic Hasan is your brother?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Could we, very quickly, browse through these names from 1 to 9,
15 and then it says "the reserve." Just check the names. You don't have to
16 read them. Have you seen them?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Can you agree with me that all persons under items 1 through 9,
19 and all persons mentioned under the reserve, items 1 to 2, are persons of
20 Muslim background?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Let me put one more question to you in connection with this.
23 Mr. Jasarevic Hasan was the president of the municipal organisation of
24 hunters, known as Fazan, in Bosanski Samac? Yes or no.
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I do not need this exhibit any
2 more. Thank you.
3 Q. Would you please now focus on item 28 of your statement. Here it
4 says: "I was a member of this neighbourhood guard..." And so on and
5 so forth, something about the weapons and arms. In relation to your
6 statement in item 28, I will put a few questions to you.
7 How did you become a member of the neighbourhood guard?
8 A. In my statement, I explained the way in which I became a member of
9 the neighbourhood guard.
10 Q. Very well. Did you become a member of the neighbourhood guard
11 following our knowledge and our information -- you had to be a member of
12 an armed unit for the defence of the city, the commander of which was
13 Alija Fitozovic. Are you familiar with the existence of such a unit?
14 A. Yes, I knew about it, but I was not its member.
15 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be given Exhibit
16 D14/4 ter. Could this exhibit be put on the ELMO, please.
17 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, would you please have a look at this document and
18 read the title of this document.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pisarevic, the exhibits which have already been
20 discussed, whose titles have been read and interpreted, we should not
21 repeat that. The witness can read the title to himself, right, so that he
22 familiarises himself with what the document contains and then you can go
23 ahead with your questions. We shall move much faster that way.
24 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honours. I'll do my
1 Q. You have seen this document, Witness. Could you please have a
2 look at the document in front of you, and to pay particular attention to
3 the ethnic structure of persons whose names figure on this document. Have
4 you seen it?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Can you agree with me that on this list we have predominantly
7 members of the Muslim ethnicity?
8 A. Here, it doesn't say anything as to who prepared this list, who
9 signed the list. Anybody could have drafted this list.
10 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no. Mr. Pisarevic -- I'm sorry.
11 Witness -- Mr. Jasarevic.
12 WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Just answer the questions put to you by counsel.
14 I've given you this warning before. Do not assume anything, just answer
15 the questions put to you by counsel.
16 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. You understood this warning. Once again, are persons on this list
18 predominantly members of the Muslim ethnicity?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. I will now ask you to turn to the second page of this document and
21 to focus on number 34, where it says Jasarevic Osman, Bulevar Revolucije.
22 Is this your first and family name?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I no longer need this document,
1 usher. Thank you very much.
2 Q. You have stated that Safet Srna brought you an automatic rifle
3 with a clip of ammunition and that Srna Safet is the brother of
4 Srna Senad [as interpreted]; isn't that right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber under whose orders and whose
7 approval Srna Safet brought you that automatic rifle and a clip of
9 A. In my statement, I said that I don't know at whose orders and that
10 I also returned the rifle to him.
11 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like the document
12 D38/1 to be presented to the witness and, at the same time, also evidence
13 D35/1. Please place these two documents on the ELMO.
14 Q. Please look at this document. On this document, under number 10,
15 we have the name Jasarevic Osman.
16 A. Yes. 40 bullets, 40 rounds of ammo in a clip, 45 armour piercing,
17 and 30 tracer. 40 rounds cannot be placed in a clip, and in my statement
18 I said that I received an automatic rifle and one clip of ammo.
19 Q. Therefore, you were not -- you did not receive this ammunition
20 that is written here?
21 A. No.
22 Q. So these are -- it's ammunition for automatic weapons?
23 A. I do not know what is this, and I don't know who wrote down my
24 name in order for issuing this.
25 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] And now please place the document
1 D35/1 on the ELMO.
2 Q. I would kindly ask you to look at the second page and under number
3 31. Will you agree that under 31 we have Jasarevic Osman? And concerning
4 the type of weapons, it's ditto because under 30, Nurkic Ajdin it says
5 Kalashnikov, that you received so many rounds of ammunition, quantity 115
6 and 4 clips. Did I read out this correctly?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you agree that in this last column where -- the last column,
9 you have comments that the weapon has been returned or given to somebody
10 else, there's nothing like that?
11 A. Well, I said I received a rifle and one clip.
12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.
13 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, I would object to that last assertion by
14 Defence counsel. The last right hand column has no heading of it
15 indicating what sort of comments or anything that should be entered in
16 there. Now I see something say, "at the MUP", "from Aziz". It means
17 nothing. It doesn't mean they were returned. I think I can see only one
18 entry where someone says returned to Sarajevo against -- it's not against
19 any name. So the counsel is saying there's entries in the right hand
20 column commenting that weapons have been returned or given to someone
21 else, and they don't exist on the document that I'm now looking at. So
22 it's a misleading question. It's not what the document says.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: I thought that counsel was simply putting it to the
24 witness that across your name there are no comments to show that the --
25 MS. REIDY: He actually says: "Do you agree that in this last
1 column, you have comments that the weapon has been returned or given to
2 someone else?" And we don't have, in the right hand column, those sort of
3 comments at all. Yes, he does --
4 JUDGE MUMBA: I see--
5 MS. REIDY: But he's suggesting that the others have comments and
6 his has nothing and those aren't the comments that are in the right hand
7 columns. So it's misleading.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Let's clarify this, Mr. Pisarevic. I think it gets
9 more confused. Can you put the question to the witness again? Perhaps
10 rephrase your question so that it is clear as to what you're asking the
11 witness regarding the entries on that document.
12 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
13 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, under number 31, we find your name and surname, and
14 in the last column, there no entry has been made?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Can we agree that next to some names contained on this list, in
17 the last column, some observations have been entered?
18 A. Yes, some observations exist.
19 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, have we clarified
20 this issue?
21 Ms. Reidy, is it clear?
22 MS. REIDY: Absolutely. And that's fine. But there are no
23 comments that guns are returned except --
24 JUDGE MUMBA: No. The questions were put and the answers are
25 clear, so you can proceed, Mr. Pisarevic.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pisarevic, you can continue.
3 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Do you, after this, do you still claim that you were not armed
5 with an automatic weapon known as a Kalashnikov? Yes or no.
6 A. No. In my statement, it says what kind of a rifle I had.
7 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to clarify that a
8 bit, because I have a feeling it will not be faithfully presented in the
10 Q. In your statement, you say that you received an automatic weapon.
11 You did not say the name, the mark of that automatic rifle, whether it was
12 of a Yugoslav make, Russian make, Romanian, Chinese.
13 A. All these are certain types of Kalashnikov.
14 Q. Can we therefore agree that also an automatic rifle that you
15 received was also a type of Kalashnikov?
16 A. The automatic rifle I received was of the Yugoslav National Army.
17 Q. All right. Thank you.
18 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] And now the evidence D39/1 be
19 presented to the witness. The previous documents do not serve me any
20 more. Please remove them.
21 Q. Please have a look at this evidence, and particularly to focus
22 your attention to the group 4, group 4. Did you see that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Can we agree that the group going under number 4 consists of Tihic
25 Pasaga, from Samac; the second member of the group, we find your name,
1 Jasarevic Osman; and as the third member, is Seljakovic Hajrudin, also
2 known as Mrki, and from Samac? Did I read that out correctly?
3 A. Yes, you did.
4 Q. And now please look at all of these groups, and can you confirm
5 that all the persons mentioned here are practically all of them of Muslim
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Please turn the second page of
9 that document.
10 Q. Please just glance at this list of the patrol groups.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can you confirm that also the persons in the consisting --
13 comprising the patrols from P1 to P6 are all of Muslim ethnicity, from
14 Bosanski Samac?
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I don't need this document any
18 Q. In your statement, you have mentioned that you went in the
19 neighbourhood guard with Fitozovic Smail, an economist, who was the
20 director of the Mebos from Bosanski Samac.
21 A. Yes, a retired director of the Mebos factory. He was already --
22 he was a retiree.
23 Q. But he was director of the Mebos, the Mebos where you were also
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Can you confirm the fact that in the company Mebos, in 1992, the
2 director was Prca Zvonko, from Bosanski Samac?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can you confirm that the president of the executive board of the
5 Mebos factory was Delic Dragan, a Muslim from Bosanski Samac?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you know the fact that Fitozovic Smail, an economist from
8 Samac, was a reserve captain of the JNA?
9 A. Possibly he was, but I don't know that.
10 Q. Thank you. And are you aware of the fact that
11 Mr. Fitozovic Smail was also tasked by the SDA and the party armed
12 formation of SDA with an automatic weapon called Zagi?
13 MS. REIDY: Your Honour --
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
15 MS. REIDY: We established yesterday that this witness says that
16 he knew nothing about the existence of armed formations of the SDA. He
17 said he knows about some self-organised groups but nothing of an armed
18 faction of the SDA, and that was made clear on the record yesterday,
20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pisarevic.
21 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I will rephrase my question, Your
23 Q. As you went with Mr. Smail Fitozovic, you were guard,
24 neighbourhood guards, did Mr. Smail Fitozovic, on those occasions, did he
25 carry an automatic weapon called Zagi?
1 A. He never carried any automatic weapon.
2 Q. If I understood you correctly, you and Mr. Smail Fitozovic went in
3 these patrols with your hunting weapons.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. When you went into these neighbourhood patrols, did you carry
6 carabines or the shotgun?
7 A. I carried a shotgun, and Smail Fitozovic had nothing on him.
8 Q. Are you aware of the fact that Mr. Smail Fitozovic was a member of
9 the SDA?
10 A. No, and I don't think that he was a member of it.
11 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I would ask again to present to
12 the witness in evidence D25 ter, 25/4 ter.
13 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, I would kindly ask you to look at the attachment
14 9/1. Please glance through this document. Can you confirm the logistics
15 base and the commander Fitozovic Smail?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And can we agree that all the names appearing on this attachment
18 are persons of Muslim ethnicity?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, can you tell us: When did Alija Fitozovic talk to
21 you? And you will find that in item -- under item 30 of your statement.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Can you tell us: When did this talk take place, in general terms?
24 A. At this point in time, I cannot tell you, but I did mention that
25 the talk took place --
1 Q. It's not a contentious matter, this item, but I'm only interested
2 when did this talk take place between you and Alija Fitozovic.
3 A. I told you that I don't know.
4 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pisarevic, you may assist the witness if you
5 relate in connection with certain events perhaps before this event or
6 after this event, to try and assist the witness to remember. Because he
7 did say previously that he can't remember dates. It's been a long time.
8 So if it's important to you, perhaps you can help him by suggesting
9 between which events. Perhaps he can remember. Generally the period.
10 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, would you say that it did happen in 1991?
12 A. I believe it did not occur then.
13 Q. Therefore, we can agree that it was -- took place in 1992?
14 A. I already said that I cannot determine exactly 1991 or 1992, but I
15 cannot say exactly.
16 Q. Was it maybe after or before that rally and the meeting in the
17 local commune which was presided over by Alija Fitozovic?
18 A. I cannot recollect whether it was prior to or after that. I can't
20 Q. Thank you. So you refused this proposal of his?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now I would ask you to look at the same document, D25/4 ter, to
23 find the attachment 4.2/.2.2. Did you find it? Look at it. Please
24 get acquainted with the document, see the title, and then I'll ask you a
25 question about it.
1 Can you confirm that we have the anti-sabotage unit and number 5
2 we have the name of Jasarevic Osman, in brackets, Roma, with the telephone
4 A. Yes, it's written.
5 Q. Is your nickname Roma?
6 A. Yes, it is.
7 Q. Can you remember whether this was your telephone number in 1991,
9 A. Here it says "750," but that's not possible.
10 Q. Under your -- next to your name, we have 61-917.
11 A. Yes, 61-917. And it's been added "arrested."
12 Q. I was only interested in the telephone number, 61-917. You don't
13 have your glasses. Maybe that's the problem.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And were all the members on this list members of Muslim ethnicity?
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that it is
18 time for a break.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. How much more time do you need,
20 Mr. Pisarevic?
21 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honour, I'll need at
22 least another two hours.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Why?
24 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Maybe less.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: It's a long time. Because the --
1 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I agree that
2 it's a long time, but in the statement there are matters which have not
3 been raised. I don't know why we have this -- such a statement. There
4 are many questions, many items, which have to be cleared up. Quite
5 possibly it will be shorter than that, but ...
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Please do reorganise your cross-examination
7 during the break and try to concentrate on matters attaching the defence
8 of your client, Mr. Pisarevic.
9 Yes, Ms. Reidy.
10 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, if I may, can I just confirm that today
11 we would have the complete afternoon session, that we go up to a quarter
12 to 2.00?
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, you mean we shall sit the normal hours? Yes,
14 we'll go the normal hours today.
15 MS. REIDY: Thank you.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: So we'll take our break and continue at 1100 hours.
17 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
18 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pisarevic.
20 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, let us clarify something in the transcript. My
22 question was: Is your phone number - and I'm speaking about the year 1991
23 and 1992 - 61-917?
24 A. I think so.
25 Q. Thank you. I will now ask you to refer to attachment 4, item 4.
1 Would you be kind enough to browse through this document, familiarise
2 yourself with this document, please, and then I'll put one question to you
3 with regard to this document.
4 Can you confirm that on this document, which is entitled,
5 "Engineering sabotage detachment, department for special purposes," under
6 item G6 we can find the names of Tihic Pasaga under 1, Jasarevic Osman
7 under 2 and Seljakovic Hajrudin under 3? Did I read these names
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Under 2, Jasarevic Osman, this is you?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. This is your phone number?
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I no longer need this document.
15 Q. I will now ask you to go to your written statement and to focus on
16 item 33. Please find the relevant item and read it out on both pages,
17 because it is on two pages in your language.
18 Here you stated that on the way back you met Simo Zaric, Fadil
19 Topcagic, a man called Dzuheric, aka Coc. This was around 7.00 p.m. Is
20 this your statement?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. However, nowhere in the statement did you state -- the statement,
23 that is, that you gave to the Prosecutor's office on the 3rd, the 4th, and
24 the 5th of February, 1995 --
25 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Could my learned friend confirm
1 this fact and spare me with the request for the witness to read this
2 statement aloud?
3 MS. REIDY: I'm sorry, Your Honour. Is counsel asking the
4 Prosecution to stipulate that nowhere in the statement of 1995 is that
5 same statement contained? Is that it, that same sentence?
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, that's what counsel is asking.
7 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, I don't see it here, but I haven't --
9 counsel never said that he was going to ask me that -- ask me to stipulate
10 on anything, so all I can tell the Bench is I don't see it in front of me
11 now as I read the statement. I can only assume that the witness wasn't
12 asked about it at the time.
13 JUDGE MUMBA: No. What counsel is asking is that what he referred
14 to in P129 --
15 MS. REIDY: Yes.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: -- does not appear in the statement of 1995 made by
17 this witness; that's all.
18 MS. REIDY: And Your Honour, what I've said to you is that as far
19 as I can see from glancing through it, it doesn't appear to be. I was not
20 put on notice by counsel about being asked to stipulate on anything, so I
21 haven't read it carefully in detail to check. But from what I -- I'm
22 looking at the paragraphs that relate to the 16th of April --
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Perhaps it will be easier if counsel just asks the
24 witness directly whether he stated whatever information you want to
25 compare his evidence with in the statement of 1995.
1 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honour. I have in
2 front of me the witness's statement, which says that on the 16th of April
3 he returned to Gradacac, and in this item he describes his return to
4 Samac, and he never mentions ever seeing, then, Mr. Simo Zaric. I assume
5 that the witness does not know his statement by heart. I have a copy of
6 his statement, though.
7 MS. REIDY: Your Honour --
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
9 MS. REIDY: Now that counsel has, for the first time, said he
10 wants us to confirm things, I've read that page. It's page 3. And --
11 sorry. It's page 4. ERN number 00258309. And I can confirm that on that
12 page which I've read, the sentence about seeing Simo Zaric does not
13 appear, and I think that's as far as we can go.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.
15 Mr. Pisarevic, that's satisfactory?
16 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm satisfied, Your Honours.
17 Q. I will now ask you, sir, to proceed to item 38. Here you stated
18 that on the way to your mother's house, you went by the city centre --
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pisarevic, the evidence is already there on
20 record. Do not repeat it. Just ask your question.
21 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I just wanted to help
22 the witness, to put him into the context.
23 Q. Can you agree with me that only a smaller section of the town, in
24 which the police building is located and the building of the municipal
25 commune and the part of eastern Mahala, at that time, on the 17th of
1 February [as interpreted], 1992, was under the control of the Serb forces,
2 as you put it?
3 A. Yes, and the monuments house. And the second exit to Samac was
4 also blocked.
5 Q. To my knowledge, you did not go towards the second exit, towards
6 the church --
7 THE INTERPRETER: Towards Crkvina. Correction of the
9 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] The date is not correct here in
10 the transcript. I didn't say 17th of February. My date was the 17th of
12 Q. Witness, can we agree that we were talking about the 17th of
13 April, 1992?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You did not answer my question whether a major part of Bosanski
16 Samac, the local commune, was under the control of the members of the
17 armed unit of the SDA for the defence of the town.
18 MS. REIDY: Again, Your Honour --
19 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] May I finish the sentence, Your
21 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, he's mentioned already members of the
22 armed unit of the SDA. This witness has now testified yesterday and today
23 about no knowledge of armed units attached specifically to the SDA.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pisarevic. Will you please remember that?
25 We can't go on reminding you. It may be the case for the Defence, but
1 certainly this witness has not given any evidence to that effect.
2 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour. I'll
3 rephrase my question.
4 Q. Witness, these armed civilians, you referred to them as members of
5 the Territorial Defence, didn't you?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. On what grounds, and how do you know that these were members of
8 the Territorial Defence units?
9 A. There were no other units in Bosanski Samac.
10 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, you stated that they had no uniforms, no insignia,
11 didn't you?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you ever see this Territorial Defence unit? Did you ever see
14 the list of the members of this unit?
15 A. No.
16 Q. You told me that you saw Nusret Kapetanovic and Suad Dumonjic
17 [Realtime transcript read in error "Djuheric"] carrying weapons.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you, in addition to these two persons --
20 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I've just been
21 suggested that the name Suad Dumanjic, Suad Dumanjic is the correct name
22 of the person concerned. Could this be corrected please.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. It's corrected.
24 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Did you see Djakic Damir?
1 A. No. I mentioned the persons that I did see in my statement.
2 Q. In other words, you neither saw Srna Salko, nor Jasarevic Muharem,
3 nor Fadil Jasarevic, Mehinovic Kemal?
4 A. I didn't see them.
5 Q. You also didn't see Bicic Hasan, Bicic Muhamed, Dagovic Esad,
6 Dagovic Safet, Salkic Ibrahim, aka Ibela, or Pasaga Tihic? You didn't see
7 these persons?
8 A. No, I did not. I just saw the two of them.
9 Q. Can you confirm to me that Suad Dumanjic and Nusret Kapetanovic
10 are of Muslim ethnicity?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. I have a few questions that have to do with item 43. Would you
13 please go through item 43 of your written statement.
14 Witness, can you tell me when and to whom did you return your
15 automatic rifle belonging to the family of Kalashnikovs?
16 A. I returned my hunting rifle, a carbine and a shotgun, and I turned
17 them over, together with the weapons permit, as I stated in my statement.
18 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, this is not disputable. My question was as
19 follows: When and to whom did you return the automatic rifle that you had
20 received from Srna Safet?
21 A. I returned it to him.
22 Q. When?
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.
24 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, Mr. Jasarevic has said -- I apologise.
25 Mr. Pisarevic, counsel, said: I want to ask you about item 43.
1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
2 MS. REIDY: He's not asking about item 43. He's asking about item
3 28, where the witness says that he returned it immediately and only had it
4 for 24 hours. So I don't know where Mr. Pisarevic is going with this, but
5 it's contrary to the paragraph he indicated.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pisarevic.
7 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the question that I
8 raised in connection with item 43 has to do with the fact that we have
9 information, we've received information that Mr. Jasarevic, on that very
10 day, in addition to the hunting weapon that he had mentioned, also
11 returned a Kalashnikov automatic rifle. This is why I first wanted to
12 find out when he returned it. Had he answered this question, I wouldn't
13 have proceeded to my next question.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. When you have information according to your
15 instructions which is not contained in any of the statements of the
16 witness, please say so, that according to your instructions, this is what
17 transpired. And then you ask him to answer.
18 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much for your
19 instruction, Your Honour.
20 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, on the basis of our information, together with your
21 hunting weapons, you returned to the police who came also a Kalashnikov
22 automatic rifle, didn't you?
23 A. This is not true. I turned over to them only my hunting rifles.
24 Q. Can you tell us when and to whom?
25 A. It is stated in my statement to whom; however, I do not know
1 exactly the date. I also know that it was Safet Srna who came and gave me
2 the rifles.
3 Q. Did that happen three months prior to the outbreak of the
5 A. As I said, I do not know exactly the time when this happened.
6 Q. Thank you. We shall now proceed to another topic. It has to do
7 with item 47 of your written statement. Here you stated that you were
8 arrested on Sunday, April 20th.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Given the fact that the year is not stated here, could you confirm
11 that you were arrested on the 20th of April, 1992?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can you tell us at what time on the 20th of April, 1992 you were
15 A. In the afternoon hours. This is what also is stated in my
16 statement. After lunch.
17 Q. In the afternoon hours. Could that be around 1600 hours?
18 A. I don't know exactly.
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pisarevic, is it important for the hour to be
20 specified? Is it not sufficient that it was in the afternoon?
21 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, for my line of
22 defence and for my analysis of this very crucial day, April 20th, the time
23 schedule is also important.
24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. If you have instructions that it was a
25 particular hour, put it to the witness, because he has stated in his
1 evidence when he was arrested. So just put it directly to the witness:
2 According to your instructions, it was such-and-such an hour.
3 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, these are not my
4 instructions, because I do not know when he was arrested. This is why,
5 through my questions to the witness, I'm trying to find out when he was
6 arrested. The afternoon hours is a rather lengthy period of time. I
7 would therefore have to ask, then, the witness: When did you take your
8 lunch? How long did you take a nap? So I will ask the witness to tell me
9 whether it was at around 2.00 p.m., 3.00 p.m., 4.00 p.m. If he can't do
10 it, of course we will proceed to my next question.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: The witness has said that he can't remember the
12 exact time; it was in the afternoon. Please move on.
13 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour. Thank you
14 very much, Your Honour.
15 Q. Item 51 of your written statement contains your statement that you
16 were taken to the SUP building. If you can recall it, could you tell this
17 Honourable Chamber where in the police station you established, for the
18 first time, your contact with Mr. Stevan Todorovic?
19 A. It was in the hall of the police station building.
20 Q. Was it on the ground floor, in the hall, in the corridor?
21 A. No. I think it was on one of the floors.
22 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] There is a mistake, Your Honour,
23 here in the transcript; therefore, I'll put my next question.
24 Q. Can we agree, Witness, that the police station in Samac only has a
25 ground floor and one floor?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. In other words, you established a contact with Stevan Todorovic.
3 Your first encounter was on the first floor, wasn't it, the only floor
4 that existed in the police station in Samac?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. In item 53, would you please have a look at this item of your
7 written statement. You stated that you were taken to the floor, to
8 another room. Do I understand it correctly that from the ground floor you
9 were taken to a first floor, or were you taken direct to a room on the
11 A. On the floor.
12 Q. Once you have been -- you were beaten in the corridor, you were
13 just taken to a room on the floor? Yes or no.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. This is where you were put in front of a table and some ten men
16 wearing camouflage uniforms and camouflage paint were beating you?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Was the door to this room closed?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Let us now proceed to item 56. Now, can you tell me: Where is
21 the room located with cells in the SUP building in Bosanski Samac?
22 A. On the side of the garages.
23 Q. Was this room on the ground floor?
24 A. I think it is on the first floor. I think so.
25 Q. Do you know where the room you were referring to was located, the
1 one with Simo Zaric?
2 A. When in my statement, I said that they started beating me in the
3 corridor, next to an upholstered door on the first floor. The door was
4 broken through. And this is what I said in my written statement.
5 Q. Very well.
6 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness now be shown
7 Exhibit P14, photograph 52, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: P14A?
9 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Please place the photo on
10 the ELMO.
11 Q. Please look carefully at this photo. Is this -- this room and the
12 cells where you were locked up?
13 A. Yes, the cells were like this. But it's not that room.
14 Q. Are these the cells?
15 A. The cells were like this.
16 Q. Do you see the bars on this window?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You can see also these pipes of the central heating system going
19 towards the ceiling and upwards to the floor?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. If you look more carefully through the picture and through the
22 window, you will see a roof, something like that.
23 A. I see it.
24 Q. Also in that room you were talking about, on the floor, and that
25 such cells existed?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And did the -- were the windows covered with such bars?
3 A. I don't remember of a window. I was immediately placed into this
4 cell. I was all bloodied. They pulled me by the hair and -- well, I
5 couldn't look at a window.
6 Q. If you remember.
7 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I would ask that the witness be
8 shown, from P14, the photograph F53.
9 Q. Sir, look at this photo. Can you confirm for us that this is a
10 photo of the police station in Samac, from the courtyard?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you, on this photograph, on the floor, see, anywhere, the --
13 any bars?
14 A. Well, I was imprisoned here.
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy.
16 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, I just have to wonder again about wasting
17 time going down this area. The witness has said the cells were like, the
18 ones in picture 52, the cells were like the ones he was held in, but it
19 was not that room. He said that clearly. He then said, he doesn't
20 remember window or he just remembers there were bars because of the
21 circumstances. So I don't see how it follows on now to ask if he sees
22 bars on this picture, because the witness has said that whether that
23 relates to his room or not is not something within his memory and that
24 photograph 52, to his memory, is not the room, although it was those kinds
25 of cells that he was thrown into. So I really am anxious not to waste too
1 much time. And perhaps no probative matters.
2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pisarevic.
3 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we claim -- we claim
4 that on the floor, such cells did not exist, and that is the reason that
5 we showed the witness the photograph, so that in order to show him that
6 these bars don't exist. We, on the basis of evidence presented, and
7 hearing witnesses who really stayed in these cells and went through the
8 entire police station, we know that cells existed only on ground floor.
9 However, I will show no other photos to the witness. I just wanted to
10 confirm -- for him to confirm that this is the police station, the
11 backside of it.
12 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, the next question is whether the door in that room
13 where the cells were, did the door exist? Yes or no.
14 A. I do not understand.
15 Q. You said that the cells were in a room.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I am asking whether there was a door, the entrance to this room.
18 A. Yes, there were doors.
19 Q. Were they -- could they be locked?
20 A. The cells could be locked, the cells where we were staying.
21 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, Madam President Mumba said -- told you to answer
22 the question. I asked you whether the doors of the room were being
24 A. And I said the answer is no.
25 Q. Only the cells were locked?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Who had the keys of those cells?
3 A. I do not know who had the key.
4 Q. Could you see from the cell -- from one cell to another cell?
5 A. I could see.
6 Q. You, in item 57, you described that on that evening certain people
7 came, they got out of the cell. Where did they beat you when they got you
8 out of the cell?
9 A. Immediately in the hallway.
10 Q. Could you tell us what time it was at night?
11 A. I don't know exactly when it was. I know that when I was moved,
12 transferred to the TO, it was already dark.
13 Q. When they beat you, was it already dark?
14 A. I don't know exactly the time.
15 Q. But you said it was dark.
16 A. Yes. I also said it in my statement.
17 Q. Yes. Were the lights on? Was there any electricity in that
18 police station on that night?
19 A. Yes, there was.
20 Q. Did you, from this cell where you were located -- could you see
21 the hall?
22 A. I was at the final cell, and I could only see -- I could see into
23 the hall.
24 Q. Did they beat you and Mr. Izet Izetbegovic at the same time then?
25 A. They pulled us both from our cells.
1 Q. Did they beat you both then?
2 A. First they beat Izet Izetbegovic.
3 Q. You could see that Izet Izetbegovic was beaten, and could he see
4 you being beaten?
5 A. He was -- after he was returned to his cell.
6 Q. From his cell, could he see or recognise that you were being
8 A. He could hear it.
9 Q. All this was happening on the 20th of April, 1992, in the evening
10 hours, didn't it?
11 A. Yes, in the evening hours.
12 Q. On the 20th of April, 1992?
13 A. I don't know the exact date the.
14 Q. But that was on the day that you were arrested?
15 A. Yes.
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pisarevic. Oh, yes. I was just wondering
17 whether you had finished.
18 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I will conclude rapidly.
19 Q. You said that you saw an upholstered door. Was it written on the
20 door that this is the office of Mr. Simo Zaric?
21 A. Nothing was written on it, but I heard Simo's voice and I saw him.
22 Q. You said that. Can you tell us just to what extent was this door
24 A. About ten centimetres.
25 Q. Thank you. How did this door open? Towards the interior of the
1 room or towards the corridor?
2 A. I don't know.
3 Q. However, Mr. Jasarevic, you, in your statement which you have
4 given on the basis of recollection and knowledge, on the 3rd, 4th, and 5th
5 of February, 1995, in describing this beating, in not in any moment did
6 you ever mention Mr. Simo Zaric.
7 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I would ask the Prosecution to get
8 acquainted with the statement of the witness and whether they can confirm
9 that in his statement he did not mention the name of Simo Zaric in any
11 JUDGE MUMBA: Ms. Reidy.
12 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, well, that's not the case, because Simo
13 Zaric is mentioned in the statement. What I can say for the record is
14 that I've read quickly through page 6, ERN 00 --
15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The question is --
16 MS. REIDY: -- 25 --
17 JUDGE MUMBA: When he was describing this beating, the beating
18 on the day he was arrested, that is what the counsel's question is
19 related to.
20 MS. REIDY: That's why I read this page, but that's -- his actual
21 question is phrased in such a way to cover the whole statement. So from
22 my answer, I'd just like to clarify that on page 00258311, in which the
23 beating is talked about, I do not see in a brief looking over it, the name
24 of Simo Zaric.
25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pisarevic.
1 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] So if I understood correctly, the
2 Prosecution -- well, in the description of this event, the name of Simo
3 Zaric is not mentioned.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mentioned it in all my statements.
5 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. You mentioned that two local Serbs were present: Milos Culapovic,
7 known as Culap, and Savo Cancarevic, the commander of the police; isn't it
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. However, you've never mentioned Simo Zaric within that.
11 A. Yes, I did, and I also described our talk.
12 Q. In view of this claim of yours that you mentioned Mr. Simo Zaric,
13 I have to give you your statement in order that you can read this
14 paragraph marked with a Roman X, so that you can get acquainted with it
15 and to tell us whether you really stated this and if it is your statement?
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Counsel, this question you are trying to put to the
17 witness, is it still in relation to the beating on the day he was
19 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE MUMBA: To say that when he described the event in that
21 statement, he did not mention the name of Mr. Simo Zaric.
22 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: The witness can answer, after looking at the
24 paragraph where he describes the beating.
25 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. After reading it, just tell me when you've read it.
2 A. Well, here it says nothing in this statement.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Please return this statement.
5 Q. And now I would ask you -- I have -- there's another matter I'd
6 like to clear up with you. Please look at item 57. Here you describe
7 that they forced you to swim in the hallway.
8 A. Yes.
9 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Which paragraph? Excuse me. Which paragraph?
10 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, paragraph 57.
11 JUDGE LINDHOLM: I beg your pardon, but in the English
12 translation, there is not a word.
13 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. 59. 59, but I will
14 link it up, connect it with paragraph 57. That is why this mistake
15 occurred at the very end.
16 Q. Did you look, Witness, at paragraph 59?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did, on that occasion, did somebody mention to you that you in the
19 past stated that Serbs will be swimming, floating down the Sava River?
20 A. I never made such a statement.
21 Q. Did you, sir, Mr. Jasarevic, in the factory where you worked, the
22 Mebos factory, when Stojan Blagojevic placed on the bulletin board in the
23 factory plant, Mebos, in the plant for the maintenance -- tools and
24 maintenance department, he placed on the bulletin board the electoral
25 poster of SDS -- did you, in front of several workers, broke that bulletin
1 board, namely, the glass pane on it, ripped this poster, electoral poster,
2 and said that this is how the Serbs will be swimming down the river?
3 A. It's true, I did take down that poster, but I never stated that
4 the Serbs would be swimming down river Sava.
5 Q. Now, this act of yours, did it cause resentment of all the workers
6 there, both Muslims, Croats, and Serbs?
7 A. No party posters were allowed within the factory walls, and that
8 was the decision taken in the factory, and that was the reason that the
9 poster was taken down.
10 Q. Did you, in that moment of time -- were you considered as a person
11 who has an expressly anti-Serb attitude?
12 A. No, I was not.
13 Q. Let us move on to paragraph 85. This is the paragraph describing
14 your transfer to Brcko.
15 Can you recall that the transfer to Brcko was carried on the 26th
16 of April, 1992, at night?
17 A. Yes, at night.
18 Q. Do you recall that in the TO, where the detainees were, that in
19 addition to Simo Zaric, Mihaljo Topolovac also entered it, and that on
20 that occasion Simo Zaric turned to the people and addressed with a few
21 words to the people there?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you remember that on that occasion he stated -- he stated: "I
24 have to tell you something quickly, namely, that for your personal
25 security and all that is happening here, and the position you're in, it's
1 been decided that you be transferred to a safe place"? And next, that on
2 that occasion he also stated: "Please don't ask me anything, because it
3 is in your interest to move you from here as quickly as possible."
4 A. The statement was, as I heard it, that we'd be moving to another
5 place for reasons of security, yes.
6 Q. And now I would kindly ask you to look at page 95 -- paragraph,
7 paragraph - I apologise - paragraph 95. Mr. Jasarevic, we are skipping
8 these statements that you had a doctor, that you could have a shower, and
9 so on. We won't lose time on that. But here I would like to ask you: In
10 your earlier statement, you said that on -- you've seen Mr. Nikolic in
11 Brcko on the 27th of April, 1992.
12 A. I don't know the date, but I saw him then, in Brcko.
13 Q. Did the lieutenant colonel introduce himself when you came there?
14 A. He did not introduce himself, but the captain with a cast told me
15 to go and see Nikolic.
16 Q. On the basis of that information, you concluded that the officer
17 was Mr. Nikolic?
18 A. He had these ranks.
19 Q. Did you ever know -- were you acquainted with Captain Petrovic?
20 A. No.
21 Q. The person who was in the garrison in Brcko, did he introduce
22 himself as Captain Petrovic?
23 A. In my statement, I thought he was Filipovic. I saw him with a
24 cast in Samac, and he was with a cast when he took me to see Nikolic.
25 This is what is contained in my statement.
1 Q. I'm asking you about Captain Petrovic, because according to our
2 information and the instructions I have, it's claimed that it wasn't
3 Colonel Nikolic but that it was Lieutenant Colonel Petrovic
4 [as interpreted] who was with Mr. Topcagic [phoen]?
5 A. He didn't have the rank of a captain.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the answer be cleared? Who didn't have the rank
7 of captain?
8 No. I'm asking the witness, because he's the one who answered he
9 didn't have the rank of captain.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The person having a rank of captain
11 was the person who brought me to the office of Nikolic.
12 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Excuse me. Just a point for clarification. On
13 page 54, in your question line 17 to 19, there is some confusion on the
14 first line you are talking about Captain Petrovic, and on the third line
15 you are saying Lieutenant Colonel Petrovic. His rank was captain, wasn't
17 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. These are
18 different persons. Captain Petrovic, not the person who brought in this
19 witness or told him. My -- according to my information, Mr. Jasarevic was
20 brought in by Captain Nebojsa Panjatovic, and he was the person with a
21 plaster cast. He -- the witness thought it was Filipovic, but according
22 to our information it was Nebojsa Penjatovic. The question was --
23 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Excuse me. You didn't understand my
24 intervention, whether two persons by the name of Petrovic, one Captain
25 Petrovic and a Lieutenant Colonel Petrovic?
1 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Petrovic is captain,
2 and Mr. Stevan Nikolic is the lieutenant colonel.
3 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Okay. So there is some mistake in the
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honours.
6 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 JUDGE LINDHOLM: There is a mistake in the transcript. There is
8 no such person as Lieutenant Colonel Petrovic.
9 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] No, sir, there is no such person.
10 Q. In other words, do you allow for the possibility that on that
11 occasion, in the Brcko garrison, when you were talking with Topcagic,
12 Stanisic, and Zaric, Captain Petrovic and not Lieutenant Colonel Stevan
13 Nikolic was present?
14 A. A person with a plaster cast took me to Colonel Nikolic.
15 Q. Thank you. I have only a few questions for you, Witness. Fadil
16 Topcagic, like Fatima Saric [phoen], are your relatives, aren't they?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Since you stated this in the course of one of your -- of the
19 cross-examinations, you said that Fadil said that he will hide you for a
20 while. Could you explain to us what did in fact Fadil have in mind? How
21 would he hide you? How -- from whom would he hide you?
22 A. I don't know from whom he was supposed to hide me. I wasn't
23 really listening to him. I was in such a state that I could --
24 Q. In other words, you didn't understand him well?
25 A. I didn't even ask him about it.
1 Q. You also stated that Simo Zaric promised to your aunt that he will
2 return you to Samac; isn't that true?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Your aunt is this Sanija Jasarevic [phoen]?
5 A. No Jasarevic.
6 Q. Ceribasic?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. This aunt of yours is the sister of your mother, isn't she?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you know that she died? Don't you?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you hear that Mr. Simo Zaric attended her funeral?
13 A. Yes, he was there. He could go there. I couldn't go there. And
14 her son was also at that ceremony.
15 Q. Your brother, Hasan Jasarevic, having been released from
16 Batkovici, left for Serbia, for the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia? Yes
17 or no.
18 A. He went for Germany.
19 Q. But before he left for Germany, he went to Serbia and/or the
20 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, didn't he?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Your mother's name was Satka, wasn't it?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Your sister, who was together with your mother, was Fata, wasn't
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And your sister had a son who was a student?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Are you familiar with the fact that they also left for Serbia and
5 that for a short period of time they stayed in the Sremska Mitrovica?
6 A. They had to pay for false personal documents, the identity card.
7 They had to pay 500, 600 Deutschmark for each document, and they left
8 under false names.
9 Q. Can you agree with me that they left for Serbia and the Federal
10 Republic of Yugoslavia?
11 A. They all left for Germany.
12 MS. REIDY: Your Honour?
13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy.
14 MS. REIDY: May I just point out to Mr. Pisarevic that this is
15 contained in paragraph 128 of his statement that his mother and his sister
16 left in that way and went out through Serbia.
17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.
18 MS. REIDY: So again --
19 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, they went to Germany through Serbia.
20 MS. REIDY: It says in the statement they went through Serbia. So
21 I am anxious for this witness could be released by the end of today. So
22 if it's in the statement, I think it's perhaps unnecessary to have it
24 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. This is what is said in the
25 statement, but it doesn't say only through Serbia, and my line of
1 questions aimed at the following question:
2 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, Witness, are you familiar with the fact that your
3 mother, your sister, and your cousin in Belgrade at the railway station,
4 were received by Paunovic Branko, Badza [phoen], Mr. Zaric, and his wife
5 Faketa? Yes or no?
6 A. Yes. Yes. Faketa was there.
7 Q. Are you familiar with the fact that your mother, Satka, sister
8 Fata, and your cousin were accommodated at Bezanija, in Belgrade, with
9 Simo Zaric's mother-in-law and/or the mother of Fadil Topcagic, Djula,
10 Fadil's wife Dina, and Fadil's children?
11 A. My cousin was not there. My mother and sister were there. They
12 stayed at Djula's.
13 Q. Are you familiar with the fact that together with them, for
14 more -- they stayed for more than one month with them?
15 A. I don't know how long, but something like that.
16 Q. Do you know that their food and other supplies required for their
17 life and maintenance of Djula, Dina, and your mother and your sister,
18 were provided for and brought in by Simo Zaric and Fadil Topcagic?
19 A. I don't know that. Fadil, yes.
20 Q. Thank you. Very well. I have only one more question for you,
21 Witness. Is the information true that the flat you have in Samac was put
22 on sale? Did you let people know that you planned to leave Samac, that
23 you would ask for asylum [Realtime transcript read in error "a^"] in
24 Germany? Yes or No?
25 A. Never. This is why I came back to Samac when I had received the
1 flat. My mother had even received the house two months ago.
2 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your
3 Honours. I have finished with my examination.
4 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honour, just one short intervention to the
5 transcript here in page 59, line 14, he was asking for asylum in Germany.
6 Here it's just letter "a", so it's just clarification. And the witness
7 answered already to that question. He heard it very well.
8 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, yes. That is corrected.
9 Re-examination by the Prosecution?
10 MS. REIDY: Yes, thank you.
11 Could I ask if the number of documents that were shown to the
12 witness could be shown again. I'll start with perhaps document D14/4. I
13 believe it's a list of names. Yes
14 Re-examined by Ms. Reidy:
15 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, the question that was never put to you: Have you
16 ever seen this document before you arrived here in The Hague?
17 A. Never have I seen this list, or any other list, nor has anybody
18 shown me a list like that.
19 Q. Thank you. And when you say no one has shown you a list, that
20 includes your whole time in detention, nothing like this was ever put to
21 you, was it?
22 A. Never have I been shown a list also while I was in detention.
23 Q. Did you ever give permission to anyone to put your name on such a
25 A. No, I never gave either permission or my signature on any list.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MS. REIDY: Could I ask that the witness be shown D25/4.
3 May I just see the document for a minute? I hope I've asked for
4 the right exhibit number. Thank you.
5 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, I'd like to ask you to look at what's called
6 attachment 4.4. I think we've established your name is at G6.2. Have you
7 ever seen this document before walking into this courtroom here today?
8 A. I did see this list before.
9 Q. When did you see this list?
10 A. Now, in the course of the cross-examination.
11 Q. You're -- absolutely. You were shown this in the
12 cross-examination. Was that the first time you had seen this list, when
13 it was put to you by Mr. Pisarevic?
14 A. For the first time that I was shown this list is here.
15 Q. Were you ever at any time a member of an engineering and sabotage
17 A. I said it in my statement, that I had an informal discussion with
18 Alija Fitozovic, but I turned it down, the offer, immediately and flatly,
19 and I never was a member of any organisation of any kind.
20 Q. For the sake of thoroughness, Mr. Jasarevic, I'd just like to ask
21 you: Were you ever asked about your role in this platoon, or was this
22 list ever put to you at any stage during your detention in 1992 in
23 Bosanski Samac? Can you just say yes or no.
24 A. No, never. No list.
25 Q. Thank you. And again, just for clarity's sake: Mr. Pisarevic
1 also asked you to have a look at -- I'm sorry. Just let me -- it's
2 attachment 4.2. And Mr. Jasarevic, is it the same circumstances with this
3 list as with the other, that you've seen it for the first time here when
4 you came to testify and that at no stage during your detention was this
5 list ever shown to you or were you ever asked about any alleged
6 involvement in anti-sabotage section?
7 A. I was never asked, nor was I ever shown any list during my
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MS. REIDY: I'd now like the witness to be shown D38/1. And
11 perhaps you could bring D39/1 with you as well. It might speed things
12 up. And D35/1. They were the three that Mr. Pisarevic used. D35/1,
13 D38/1 and D39/1. Perhaps we'll just go in sequential order. If D35/1
14 could be shown to the witness first.
15 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, you were never again asked about this list. Had
16 you ever, ever seen this list before Mr. Pisarevic showed it to you on the
17 stand here?
18 A. No, I was never shown this list before, at any point in time,
19 apart from this cross-examination here.
20 Q. Thank you. When you were detained in Bosanski Samac, were you
21 ever questioned at all about being issued with a Kalashnikov and some
22 ammunition and a number of clips of ammunition?
23 A. No, nobody questioned me about that.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MS. REIDY: Could I ask that the witness be shown number 38/1.
1 Q. Have you ever seen this list?
2 A. I've never seen this list either.
3 Q. Do you know anything about this list? Have you heard about it,
4 anybody informed you of its existence?
5 A. No. I was never informed about it or about the existence of any
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MS. REIDY: Could I ask that the witness be shown D39/1.
9 Q. Again, for the record, before you were asked questions by
10 Mr. Pisarevic, had you ever seen this document before?
11 A. No, I had never seen this list before Mr. Pisarevic showed it to
13 Q. Had anyone ever asked you about going out in a group 4 with two
14 other persons, one called Pasaga Tihic and one called Hajrudin Seljakovic?
15 A. No, nobody asked me about this list or this group.
16 Q. At no time during your detention were you ever asked any questions
17 on the basis of this document?
18 A. No. They never questioned me about this document.
19 Q. Did you ever go on patrol with Mr. Tihic -- this is Pasaga Tihic
20 or Mr. Hajrudin Seljakovic?
21 A. No, I never went with them.
22 Q. You did go out on these neighbourhood patrols with
23 Smail Fitozovic; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can you have a quick look through the names here? Perhaps it's
1 easier for you to look at the actual document and see whether you see his
2 name there.
3 A. I can't see on this list Fitozovic Smail.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MS. REIDY: I'm finished with that document.
6 Could I ask if the witness could be shown document 36 -- D36/1.
7 It's not one yet put to the witness by Mr. Pisarevic, but it's all part of
8 the same kind of documentation.
9 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, could you just take a minute or two to familiarise
10 yourself with this document, and just for your own sake, perhaps the
11 original is easier. For the record, this is a handwritten document which
12 is called "Persons who received payment for being on duty from the 3rd to
13 the 7th of March" and "Persons who received payments for being on duty
14 from the 8th to the 13th of March," both -- well, the second one is
15 certainly 1992.
16 Mr. Jasarevic, could I ask you, in familiarising yourself with
17 that document, whether you can see your name in it for having received any
18 payment for being on duty?
19 A. My name is not there.
20 Q. Did you ever participate in a formal patrol or group such as the
21 types you've seen put to you on the list and did you ever receive payment
22 for your participation in these neighbourhood watches?
23 A. I was never -- I never received any payment, I never saw this
24 list. I already stated that I went only together with Smail Fitozovic.
25 Q. Thank you very much.
1 MS. REIDY: I've finished with that document. Since we started
2 with cross-examination by Mr. Pisarevic, I'll continue with issues raised
3 by him.
4 Q. He raised an incident where you had removed an SDS electoral
5 poster from the factory where you worked. Were there SDA and HDZ
6 electoral posters up in the factory?
7 A. As I stated, it was prohibited for any poster to be put up, and no
8 one else put any other poster there.
9 Q. Thank you. Another part of Mr. Pisarevic's cross-examination was
10 to ask you about an alleged statement taken from you by Inspector Savic.
11 Now, we don't have a copy of this document and have no knowledge that it
12 actually exists, but did you ever say to Mr. Savic, as far as you can
13 remember, that you used to be a member of the SDA?
14 A. I said it before: I was forced to say that. There was no
15 choice. I didn't have any choice. I was told that I should state that I
16 was a member, but -- and I had to sign it as well. Whatever they insisted
17 for me to do, I did it, and I would have signed anything.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: We shall take our break for 20 minutes. We shall
19 resume our proceedings at 1250 hours.
20 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.
21 --- On resuming at 12.52 p.m.
22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy. Re-examination.
23 MS. REIDY: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, Mr. Pisarevic asked you about several incidents
25 involving his client, which he said you did not mention in the statement
1 you gave to the OTP in February of 1995. Do you know that the indictment
2 in this case was issued in June 1995, after you had given your statement?
3 A. No, I do not know that.
4 Q. It's I think in fact a public knowledge that the indictment was
5 originally issued in June. So when we in fact met in May of this year,
6 was that the first time that someone from the Office of the Prosecutor
7 specifically asked you about the presence of these defendants in the SUP
8 building whilst you were being beaten in the corridor?
9 A. Nobody asked me.
10 Q. Is that nobody prior to when we met this year, in May, was I the
11 first person to ask you whether any of the defendants were in the SUP
12 building when you were beaten?
13 A. Up until then, nobody had posed that question to me.
14 Q. Thank you. Mr. Jasarevic, could I also ask you to confirm that
15 your information about your meeting in Brcko between yourself, Colonel
16 Nikolic, and Mr. Zaric was also in your statement of February 1995? If I
17 tell you that it's here, would you accept that as true?
18 A. Yes, it is true.
19 Q. Thank you. And is it true that also at that time you stated how
20 you had been offered your freedom in exchange for joining the 4th
22 A. Yes, that is correct.
23 Q. Thank you. While we're on the matter of the 4th Detachment, this
24 morning Mr. Pisarevic asked you about an incident in which he referred to
25 civilians who were injured. Is it correct that all those civilians were
1 also members of the 4th Detachment? Do you know the incident I'm talking
3 A. Yes, I know, and they were all members of the 4th Detachment.
4 Q. And when they said they were civilians, they were all members of
5 the 4th Detachment, were they all also armed at the time, to the best of
6 your information?
7 A. Yes, they were armed.
8 Q. Thank you. You were asked questions about your sister and mother
9 going through Germany -- going through Serbia. Is it correct that they
10 purchased forged documents in order to do that, what Mr. Pisarevic was
11 asking you about?
12 A. Yes. They had to get forged documents.
13 Q. And they paid money for those forged documents?
14 A. Yes. All the documents had to be paid, as well as the
16 Q. Do you know who they had to pay all this money to? Were you ever
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Could you please tell us who they paid the money to?
20 A. For the ID, I do not know. Srdic and a former policeman, a
21 retired policeman, and for my mother and sisters, Ignjo Popovic ensured
22 the transport.
23 Q. Thank you. You said that your family left Bosanski Samac in this
24 manner because they could not be exchanged. Could you explain what you
25 mean by "they could not be exchanged"?
1 A. Well, it's not that anybody could just apply and go for the
2 exchange. It wasn't like that.
3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think it would be worthwhile
5 clarifying when this happened, the period of time, concerning what has
6 been stated by the witness.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After 17 months.
8 MS. REIDY:
9 Q. Witness, -- sorry, Mr. Jasarevic. 17 months after what?
10 A. After the fall of Samac.
11 Q. So 17 months after the fall of Bosanski Samac your mother and
12 sisters left; is that correct?
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. Thank you. Could they not leave of their own free will, if that
15 was their desire? Why did they have to buy forged documents?
16 A. Well, with their true documents, they couldn't leave, because they
17 had Muslim names.
18 Q. So their whole movement and everything was completely controlled,
19 was it?
20 MR. LAZAREVIC: I believe that there is calling for some
21 conclusions and speculation from this witness. He wasn't present there,
22 so there is no basis for this kind of question.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Ms. Reidy. And also sometimes when you are
24 re-examining, please deal with matters that are relevant to the
25 indictment, not just any question that was raised in cross-examination.
1 MS. REIDY: Absolutely, Your Honour. Because one of -- two of the
2 counts in the indictment relate to deportation, the manner in which people
3 went in and out of Samac is something I'd like to touch on since counsel
4 raised it.
5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes but in this particular case the family and
6 relatives of this particular witness, as Mr. Lazarevic says, he was not
7 present when the events in question are being raised -- happened.
8 MS. REIDY: Absolutely, Your Honour. He does, however, have
9 information which he's provided and which Mr. Pisarevic asked him about,
10 for example, where they stayed in Serbia and how long.
11 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, I'll finish this topic in a minute. I just am
12 seeking a clarification on your answer, which was that because they had
13 Muslim documents -- because -- sorry. Here is your answer. You said:
14 "With their true documents, they couldn't leave, because they had Muslim
15 names." Would you just explain what you mean by that.
16 A. Yes. The true documents, on the true documents, Muslim names were
17 written on them, and nobody could get out with Muslim names and to go from
18 there to Serbia, and they had to go because there was a commission in
19 Bosanski Samac which entered the homes, and they would make a report of
20 the property, and that would imply that you'd be evicted, taken out of
21 your house, and sent to the Zasavica camp. And Vajagic Joka was at the
22 head of that commission and that was the reason that they had to leave
24 Q. Thank you. You were also questioned at length about the weapon
25 you were issued with and exactly what type of weapon it was. At any stage
1 was an illegal weapon ever found on your person or in your home in
2 Bosanski Samac?
3 A. Nothing illegal was ever found on me personally or in my home.
4 Q. Was an allegation ever put to you whilst you were in detention
5 that such an illegal automatic weapon was ever found on your person or in
6 your home, or indeed anywhere where it was indicated that the automatic
7 weapon was yours?
8 A. It was never found. I never had it and it was never in my home.
9 Q. Thank you. I will now move on to the examination by counsel for
10 Mr. Tadic. And you were being asked about the exchange of your
11 mother-in-law, and you said that you believed it was in the last exchange,
12 and I'm going to quote from the transcript. You said: "It was an
13 elderly woman, 70-odd years, from Zasavica, Zasavica camp. She was
14 transferred. Nobody asked where she will be going."
15 Could I ask you to explain what you mean by the fact that she was
16 transferred and nobody asked where she will be going?
17 A. She wanted to go home. Nobody asked her, so she had to go into
18 the exchange because her apartment was already occupied.
19 Q. And this information from having spoken with your mother-in-law?
20 A. Yes. Yes. From the conversation I had with my mother-in-law.
21 Q. You also used the word in your earlier answer about the fact that
22 she was transferred. Do you have any information as to whether people
23 were exchanged at the time she was or whether she was just taken to the
24 border or to a demarcation line and left there?
25 A. She was taken from Zasavica to the place where the exchange took
1 place, like everybody else who were in Zasavica, from Zasavica, and who
2 were exchanged.
3 Q. And do you have any information whether or not, like in your
4 exchange, people came from the other side into Serb-controlled areas, or
5 whether in fact she and other people with her were just placed -- you said
6 brought to the -- to that designated place and handed over to the other
7 side, so to speak.
8 A. On -- the civilians weren't taken across to the other side, but
9 only prisoners of war, and from Samac only civilians were taken across.
10 Q. When you say "prisoners of war," what --
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What do you mean? Were they people in military uniform?
13 A. No, they were not in uniforms. I saw younger men.
14 Q. Were you present at the exchange of your mother-in-law?
15 A. No, I was not.
16 Q. Thank you. I'm going to -- also on the matter of exchanges, you
17 were asked about your activity on the Croatian side, and you had said that
18 you went to international organisations about your wife and children.
19 Could you just tell us for the record what sort of international
20 organisations those were?
21 A. There were various organisations for the reunionification of
22 families: The International Red Cross, the local Red Cross. These were
23 the organisations I visited.
24 Q. Thank you. And again, did you go and visit these organisations
25 because your wife, of her own free will, could not be reunited with her --
1 sorry. That your wife was not free to be reunited with you?
2 A. Yes, that was the reason I went there.
3 Q. Thank you. I'm going to move on, finally, to the
4 cross-examination. I believe it was already at this stage by Mr. Novic on
5 behalf of Blagoje Simic, and you were asked about the gathering three
6 days -- three days after the takeover of Samac, the gathering outside the
7 Territorial Defence building, because there had been an announcement for
8 people to report there. And you said that whoever moved -- that you saw
9 people with white armbands on them, the Muslims and the Croats, and
10 whoever moved about had to wear a white armband. Is it the case that
11 there was an announcement that Muslims and Croats were told that when they
12 went out, that they should wear a white armband? Is that what you're
13 referring to?
14 A. I don't know whether this order was issued, to wear white
15 armbands, but I do know that everybody was wearing them.
16 Q. Thank you. You were asked also by counsel about checkpoints, and
17 as you said in your statement, that there were also checkpoints in
18 Croatian villages. Now, I just want to clarify something in the
19 transcript so it can't be used against you. You were asked to say which
20 villages the checkpoints were set up in, and you mentioned Hasici,
21 Domaljevac, Crkvina, and Serbian Tisina. Is it correct that Hasici and
22 Domaljevac are Croat villages?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And Crkvina and Serbian Tisina are Serb-populated villages?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. So in your answer, you were referring in general to where
2 checkpoints were, not just Croat ones or not just Serb ones?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, do you have your statement in front of you, the one that is
5 in evidence here before this Court? Yes? If you look at paragraph 21,
6 you'll see your statement says: "There were some checkpoints in Croatian
7 villages, including Hasici." And then the statement says Domaljevac
8 didn't have a checkpoint. Is that correct or is it your recollection that
9 there was a checkpoint at Domaljevac?
10 A. I didn't see the checkpoint myself, but I heard that it exists.
11 Q. This is the checkpoint at Domaljevac?
12 A. Yes. Yes.
13 Q. That's the end of that matter.
14 You were also questioned by the same counsel about hearing of the
15 establishment of the Aleksandar Vukovic Foundation by the Crisis Staff of
16 Samac over Radio Samac, and you told counsel that: "I always listened to
17 the radio, because Simo Zaric had a show, a programme in which he daily
18 spoke about how Muslim and Croat forces had been preparing an attack on
19 Samac and who ever's name he mentioned on the radio was arrested. That
20 happened to my brother."
21 Do you recall that evidence?
22 A. Yes, precisely so. Yes.
23 Q. Did you hear these announcements when you were already exchanged
24 in Orasje, whilst you were in Orasje?
25 A. I didn't arrive yet to Orasje when I heard this about my brother.
1 Q. Where were you when you heard the announcement about your brother?
2 A. I was sick, in Slavonski Samac, and I myself was listening to the
3 radio there.
4 Q. And after you heard this announcement, your brother was arrested?
5 A. That's right. That's correct.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic.
7 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. I do believe that this
8 particular episode is quite important. Could the witness say to us the
9 period when he was in Slavonski Samac and when he came to Orasje.
10 Because, as we well know, yesterday, after several questions of my
11 co-counsel, he didn't recollect anything. Now he's refreshing memory,
12 which I really am grateful for that. And now we can maybe have a more
13 precise time period. Thank you.
14 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm sure Ms. Reidy can deal with that, to specify
15 the time of these movements of the witness.
16 MS. REIDY: I will try, Your Honour, but, with respect, this was
17 during cross-examination by Mr. Pantelic. His co-counsel could have
18 pursued this matter, and it's not the case that the witness denied a
19 memory of this at all, he just simply wasn't pursued. But I'll ask.
20 Q. Mr. Jasarevic, could you tell me, as best you can recall, when you
21 were in Slavonski Samac recovering?
22 A. Slavonski?
23 Q. Yes. I think you said that you were sick in Slavonski Samac and
24 that you were -- that's where you heard the announcement about your
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Could you tell us when this happened? Was this immediately after
3 your exchange?
4 A. No, not really.
5 Q. If you can tell us --
6 A. I don't know exactly when my brother was arrested, because I only
7 heard about it after the first exchange. But his name was broadcast over
8 the radio, and he was arrested, but I don't know the exact day.
9 Q. Thank you. Could you perhaps tell us if you can remember when it
10 was that you were sick in Slavonski Samac, if in fact -- maybe our record
11 is wrong. Were you sick at some stage in Slavonski Samac?
12 A. Yes, I was ill.
13 Q. And if you can remember, could you tell us roughly when this was?
14 A. Maybe mid-July, but I'm not sure of that.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, since we will have no opportunity to
17 re-cross this witness or things like that, I do believe that there is some
18 misunderstanding here in this transcript that things were not quite clear
19 to me. I still don't understand from this transcript, did the witness
20 actually heard that his brother was arrested or he heard the actual
21 broadcast, or what? Maybe -- just this is the only possibility that we
22 can clarify that.
23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think, Ms. Reidy --
24 MS. REIDY: Your Honour, I don't mind clarifying things, but I
25 would like to bear in mind that Mr. Zaric -- Mr. Pisarevic spent many
1 hours cross-examining this witness after this had already been put on the
3 Q. So, Mr. Jasarevic, could you just tell us what it was you heard on
4 the radio. Did you hear Mr. Simo Zaric making announcements, talking
5 about people, giving names of Muslims and Croats?
6 A. Yes. He mentioned, in this one programme on the radio, that a
7 special hunters' unit would be established, and my brother Hasan would be
8 a part of this unit's command. And after this one programme, he was
9 arrested and he was taken to Batkovici, to the camp.
10 Q. So what you heard was the broadcast, you heard Mr. Simo Zaric
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And what you learned later was that your brother was arrested?
14 A. That's right. First detained in Samac, maltreated, mistreated,
15 and then -- just like me, and then taken to Batkovici.
16 Q. Thank you. These broadcasts of Mr. Zaric, you said they took
17 place on a daily basis. Is that what you recall?
18 A. He had a particular time, but I don't know whether his broadcast
19 was on a daily basis. But of course, I followed all the news programmes,
20 yet I don't know exactly the hour and whether this was a daily broadcast.
21 I myself, however, heard him say things around the establishment of this
22 hunters' unit and about my brother.
23 Q. Did you ever hear Mr. Zaric say on whose behalf or on what
24 authority he was making such announcements?
25 A. This was Serbian Radio Samac, but he didn't say on whose behalf he
1 had been speaking.
2 Q. Thank you. Did Mr. Zaric ever include in the programmes any
3 information about things happening to persons of Muslim and Croat
4 ethnicity, such as their detention, maltreatment, anything like that?
5 A. He never spoke about that on the radio.
6 Q. Thank you. And Mr. Jasarevic, one last thing, because it has been
7 put to you a number of times by counsel. Do you hold any anti-Serb
8 sentiment, and particularly in 1992, when you were living in Bosanski
9 Samac, did you have anti-Serb sentiments?
10 A. No, I never held anti-Serb sentiments. Hasan's wife, my
11 sister-in-law, is a Serb, and she is been living with my brother in
12 Gradacac. They simply couldn't return to their home until two months
13 ago. All my childhood friends were Serbs, of Serb background, and I never
14 held any such sentiments that had been alleged concerning the Serbs or
15 other ethnicities. I myself was an advocate of peace in my town.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 MS. REIDY: That's the end of my re-exam.
18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Thank you very much, Mr. Jasarevic, for giving
19 evidence to the Tribunal. We are now finished with you. You may leave
20 the courtroom.
21 [The witness withdrew]
22 JUDGE MUMBA: There's no other witness, is there?
23 MS. REIDY: No, Your Honour. And I know we only have 15 minutes
24 left, but on that matter, just so it's on the record and counsel know as
25 well: I was advised during the break that the flight of the witness has
1 been a little bit delayed, so he will be arriving in, but I hope that
2 we'll be able to finish the 92 bis procedure and disclose it to Defence
3 counsel as soon as possible. But they were provided with a draft
4 translation of the 92 bis statement this morning, our translator having
5 worked through the night to provide that for them.
6 JUDGE MUMBA: And the other two witnesses who had visa problems
7 will be rescheduled?
8 MS. REIDY: That's right. They will appear after Witness A,
9 because I've been led to believe that their visa problem is solved or in
10 the process of being solved. They had to get new passports, I think.
11 JUDGE MUMBA: I see. All right.
12 MS. REIDY: And that they're being flown out at the beginning
13 of next week and they'll be here. Although, if I'm correct, we don't sit
14 next Thursday and Friday, the 11th and 12th, because of the Plenary
16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The programme has been sent to everybody
17 concerned, yes.
18 Are there any other matters? The Defence?
19 We shall adjourn and continue our proceedings on Monday at 0900
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.29 p.m.,
22 to be reconvened on Monday, the 8th day of July,
23 2002, at 9.00 a.m.