Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10983

1 Tuesday, 16 July 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Miroslav Tadic, and Simo

9 Zaric.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We're continuing with the Prosecution -- oh,

11 cross-examination by Mr. Lazarevic.

12 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.


14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 Cross-examined by Mr. Lazarevic: [Continued]

16 Q. Good afternoon, sir. We will be continuing with our

17 cross-examination where we left off yesterday. If you remember, we were

18 looking at some photographs of the SUP building in Bosanski Samac, and now

19 I would like, very briefly, in two or three questions, clear up some

20 things. I understand fully that it is very hard for you to think back

21 about all those events, but I think that we need to clarify the --

22 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... the usher

23 with the photograph F53. It's Exhibit P14 and the photograph number is

24 53.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please wait for the end of the

Page 10984

1 interpretation before continuing on in English.

2 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 Q. Sir, I'm specifically interested in the upper right-hand corner of

4 this building. Do you see that window?

5 A. Yes. That's exactly the one.

6 Q. Can you please tell us, what is this room?

7 A. This room that I'm indicating right now is the room of the

8 communications centre, where the communications centre was.

9 Q. Thank you very much. Just one more question pertaining to this

10 photograph. On the ground floor, the second window from the door, with

11 the bars, can you please tell me -- yes, that's the one- what room was

12 that?

13 A. Yes. This was a room where the cell was, and I remember quite

14 clearly that I was in that cell.

15 Q. Thank you very much.

16 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... that the

17 witness pointed a window on the upper right corner of the house,

18 indicating that this is a communications centre.


20 MR. LAZAREVIC: And the second window, looking from the door, on

21 the right side, and he -- indicating that this is a space where the cell

22 where he was incarcerated was.


24 MR. LAZAREVIC: And now I would just like the assistance in

25 showing the photograph F52. I don't need this photograph any more.

Page 10985

1 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, if I understood you correctly, according to

2 what you indicated, this was the room where the cells were, but this

3 photograph was taken inside the building. Is that correct?

4 A. Yes. However, this table -- this desk was not here, this chair

5 was not here, and the wall here was not the way it is now. It was all

6 covered in blood.

7 Q. Yes, but at any rate, this is the area, but of course the

8 furniture -- I assume that it was the way you describe it. But what I

9 wanted to know is whether this is that room or not. Can we agree on that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So in this respect, I'm only interested in one more thing and then

12 we will move on to another topic. There are two cells here; is that

13 correct, or rather, you can see for yourself that there are two doors

14 here, which would mean that there are two cells, one next to the other?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And this room is located on the ground floor of the SUP building;

17 is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Across the corridor from the doors to these cells there is

20 nothing; there is only the wall. There are no rooms that one could enter

21 from that part. Is that correct?

22 A. There's nothing there. This is the wall that divided the cells

23 from the toilet, but one could not enter from this room but from another

24 room.

25 Q. Thank you very much. I will ask you one more question in this

Page 10986

1 regard. This is the only room in the SUP building where the cells were.

2 There are no cells on the first floor. Is that correct?

3 A. I don't know whether there were any. While I was there, there

4 weren't any. I didn't go to any other cells, apart from these ones here.

5 Q. Well, you see, I don't know what the situation was before or

6 afterwards. I'm interested in the period while you were there, and from

7 your statement, one could see that you were also upstairs in Dragan

8 Lukac's office. Can you please tell me: Were there any cells, any room

9 with cells on the first floor?

10 A. I don't think so.

11 Q. Thank you very much.

12 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Lazarevic. I'd like to ask

13 Witness A: Looking at the photograph, what is on the immediate left-hand

14 side of the photograph, to the left of the numbers 1, 3? Is it a wall,

15 another cell perhaps, a doorway? I'd like to have some sense of, if I was

16 standing here, what I would be looking at. I hope the question is clear.

17 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, Your Honour. Do you want me to clarify all

18 this issue with the witness? Or maybe he can answer straight.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can give you my

20 answer immediately. I don't know what was here indicated with numbers 1,

21 3, but I don't know that this cell, it's a room. As you can see, this is

22 not a big room. And as you entered it, to the left there was one door.

23 This is one door to one of the cells, and this is the other door. Here

24 it's leaning against the window that's looking out into the yard. That's

25 the other cell. So this room here, it was divided in half, here up to the

Page 10987

1 window, and to the right there was the wall, and here there was the

2 entrance. And all this that I'm indicating now was made of some kind of

3 steel, and it was painted this kind of a drab colour, SMB colour. Up here

4 you can see the bars. So you can see, this is the first door, this is the

5 other door, the first cell, the other cell. In my time, two people were

6 here, and I was in the other cell with another prisoner. So when you

7 opened -- when they closed this, we were unable to open it from the

8 inside. We only got air through here and we could only look out at the

9 wall. In fact, they could only look out at the wall, while we could look

10 out through the window, if they allowed us, and if somebody opened the

11 door, we were able to see, more or less, and recognise a person, if they

12 allowed us or if we dared to look out. So this is a small room, quite

13 small room, but it was also divided in two. This was made of iron or

14 steel, and this wall here was all covered in blood and dirty, because I

15 assume that other people had been imprisoned here before. There was this

16 floor. And we had some kind of benches to sit on. And this is where I

17 was.

18 MR. LAZAREVIC: Maybe I could clarify even more. If you look at

19 the photograph, on the right side you see a door handle. So this is taken

20 from some sort of corridor, and the door was open. So the doors are on

21 this side, so when they closed the door, that's ...

22 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you very much.

23 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Mr. Usher. I don't need this any more.

24 And may the record reflect that the witness identified the cell

25 where he was incarcerated.

Page 10988


2 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Sir, now I would like to move on to the topic of your meeting

4 Mr. Zaric in the SUP building. You spoke about that here before this

5 Trial Chamber. You said that you had gone to Milos Savic and that you

6 heard Simo Zaric, that you had asked Milos Savic to take you to Simo Zaric

7 to talk to him. I would like to clarify a few details regarding this

8 conversation.

9 When you spoke to Mr. Zaric, Milos Savic was also present there;

10 is that correct?

11 A. No.

12 Q. So if I understand you correctly, Savic got out and you were on

13 your own with Simo Zaric; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you remember whether on that occasion, when you were there with

16 Mr. Zaric, that he said that nationalist parties were responsible for all

17 that was happening at the time? Do you perhaps remember that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Mr. Zaric did not blame you for anything in the course of that

20 conversation; is that correct?

21 A. Well, he was quite angry. He was quite angry also with me. But

22 he was angry in general.

23 Q. However, he didn't tell you, "You are responsible, you are guilty

24 of this and that, you had this or you did that," he didn't blame you for

25 anything, you personally; is that correct?

Page 10989

1 A. No.

2 Q. Can you please tell me, with regard to that conversation, whether

3 Zaric said that he knew that Sulejman Tihic would be treated as a

4 political prisoner, together with Izet Izetbegovic, Dragan Lukac, and he

5 also mentioned your name, and he said that he hoped that you would be

6 released quite soon. Was anything said to that effect at that time?

7 A. Not to that effect, not in that sense. When I spoke to Mr. Zaric,

8 I asked him, "Well, what is this? What's happening? You've seen what I

9 look like. What am I guilty of? If I were guilty of anything, I wouldn't

10 stay here in Samac; I would have gone somewhere." And then I told him,

11 "Don't put me in the same position or the same situation as Mr. Tihic.

12 Tihic was the president of the party." I didn't belong to any party. I

13 was there as a reserve officer of the MUP, of the legal police force of

14 Bosnia and Herzegovina.

15 Q. Yes. I'm sorry, sir. I didn't mean to interrupt your answer.

16 Please do not misunderstand me. This is word for word what you already

17 stated here. We already have that on record. I wanted to speed things up

18 and to obtain all the facts that we need while respecting your time. This

19 is precisely what you stated already here.

20 A. If I may just correct you. In that conversation, Lukac or

21 Izetbegovic were not mentioned at all in that conversation. At that time

22 I had no contact -- I had had no contact with Lukac or with Izetbegovic.

23 I hadn't seen Izetbegovic at all. I was brought into the office and

24 beaten together with Mr. Tihic, and that's when Simo told me, "You will be

25 exchanged, you and Tihic will be exchanged as political prisoners." Now,

Page 10990

1 if I have to explain to the Trial Chamber how the conversation went on,

2 that he got down and then went back, if that's necessary, I will clarify

3 all that and I will explain, but if it's not necessary ...

4 Q. Well, if my learned colleague from the Prosecution thinks that he

5 needs to obtain some other details regarding to this issue, he will do so

6 in the re-direct. I have to say that I understood quite clearly what you

7 just said, and I don't think it's necessary to clarify this any further.

8 I'm interested in another thing, though. In that conversation

9 with Mr. Zaric, when you spoke about that, you said that he wore a

10 camouflage uniform and that he had a white band on his shoulder board. Do

11 you remember that you said that?

12 A. I remember it quite clearly. He wore a uniform, the uniform that

13 we call a camouflage uniform. Some people call it a multicoloured

14 uniform, but it's a camouflage uniform. He had a satchel with him, a

15 leather satchel. He had a Scorpion, and now I don't remember whether it

16 was on the left or right shoulder, but he had a white band that was tied

17 to the upper part of the uniform. But I think -- I rather think it was

18 the left shoulder.

19 Q. Sir, on the 8th, 9th, and 10th of October, and the 6th of

20 December, 1994, you gave a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor of

21 the Tribunal in The Hague, a Mrs. Nancy Paterson, who worked in the OTP.

22 She was in charge of this case, and to Mrs. Maria Velikonja; is that

23 correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. This is an official statement that was given to the investigators

Page 10991

1 in the presence of the Prosecutors of the Tribunal in The Hague; is that

2 correct?

3 A. I know who was there, but I don't know the exact capacity in which

4 they were there.

5 Q. When you gave the statement, you gave it voluntarily, of your own

6 free will; it was your decision to do so. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. No one exerted any kind of pressure on you for you to make the

9 statement; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And no one influenced you in regard of the contents of the

12 statement, in other words, so that you state something that -- that

13 something was stated that you didn't actually say or something like that;

14 is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You signed that statement; is that correct?

17 A. I think so.

18 Q. Before signing it, you familiarised yourself with the contents; is

19 that correct?

20 A. Yes. It was interpreted to me.

21 Q. In 1994, when you gave that statement, can we agree that your

22 recollection of the events in April 1992 and onwards was better than it is

23 now, in year 2002, ten years later? Is that correct?

24 A. Well, regarding some things, perhaps yes, but the things that

25 affect me, the conversations and the suffering, I think I will remember

Page 10992

1 that for a long time.

2 Q. Now, I would like to show you a detail regarding the statement,

3 and it pertains precisely to the conversation with Simo Zaric in the SUP

4 building. It's on page 11 of your statement. Since we're talking about

5 only a few sentences, I think that the simplest thing would be for me to

6 read it to you, to quote from the statement. My colleagues from the

7 Office of the Prosecutor will make sure that what I'm reading is exactly

8 the way it is written. The ERN number of this page is 00637838, and it

9 says the following, pertaining to the conversation of Mr. Zaric --

10 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please --

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: No objection. I'm just trying to follow the

13 evidence. I wonder if my learned friend knows where in the English

14 statement it might be.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

16 MR. LAZAREVIC: Well, I'm afraid that I don't have the English

17 version here. I just have a B/C/S version. And my colleague would look

18 at it in a second and they will inform the Prosecution in one second.

19 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Lazarevic. You could just give us

20 the paragraph number, couldn't you?

21 MR. LAZAREVIC: Actually, in this statement, there are no

22 paragraph numbers. So, this is a statement that was given in 1994. This

23 is not his statement according to Rule 92 bis.

24 It's on page 12 -- sorry. It's page 11, and it starts with "three

25 or four times during the night ..."

Page 10993

1 Q. [Interpretation] So, the Prosecutor now has it in front of him,

2 and there's a statement that I noticed -- a sentence that I noticed here

3 in your statement, and it goes as follows, regarding your conversation

4 with Mr. Zaric:

5 "I asked him what was going to happen with us, would they have to

6 exchange us."

7 So you told us here that Mr. Zaric told us that you would be

8 exchanged, but in your statement it comes across that you, in fact, were

9 the one who asked Mr. Zaric whether you should be exchanged. So, what is

10 true? Is it true what it says here in your statement from 1994?

11 A. I don't remember asking him that.

12 Q. And do you allow for the possibility that it was that way, that it

13 was you, in fact, who asked him whether you would be exchanged and asked

14 him what was going to happen to you?

15 A. Well, it could be, because I insisted, I asked to see Simo Zaric,

16 because I thought that he was the only one able to help me.

17 Q. Thank you very much. I have just one more question regarding

18 this. During that conversation, did Zaric tell you that he was unable to

19 prevent you being beaten? Do you remember him telling you that? Do you

20 remember that detail?

21 A. Unfortunately, I don't remember that.

22 Q. Sir, now I'm going back to that same statement of yours from 1994,

23 and the following paragraph. The Prosecutor should have it in front of

24 him. You say that Mr. Zaric said that, "We would be exchanged soon, that

25 he was unable to prevent us being beaten."

Page 10994

1 So, this is what it says in your statement from 1994. Do you

2 remember that? Do you remember that Mr. Zaric said something like that,

3 that he was not able to prevent you from being beaten?

4 A. I don't know. I don't remember. I just told you that it could be

5 so because I was the one who asked to see him. He saw what condition I

6 was in, and the only thing I cared about was saving myself.

7 Q. Thank you very much. And I have identical information regarding

8 your condition from Mr. Zaric. He did tell me that you were in a very bad

9 shape, so it is quite possible that you can't remember every single

10 detail.

11 Now, I would like to turn to the time when you were transferred to

12 Brcko. You, naturally, were not the only one who was transferred to

13 Brcko; there were other prisoners there with you. And bearing in mind the

14 fact that you were in a very bad shape, I'm going to ask you whether you

15 can confirm for me the fact that this transfer of yours to Brcko took

16 place on the 26th of April, 1992, on the very same day when, in the

17 courtyard of the TO building, Dikan was killed.

18 A. I don't remember what date it was exactly when we were transferred

19 to Brcko. All I know is that two or three days later, approximately, was

20 the 1st of May, and I know that we were in Brcko on the 1st of May. I saw

21 with my own eyes Lugar beating Dikan, and allegedly he was killed later.

22 Q. Let me just ask you: So did that take place on the same day? You

23 were transferred in the evening hours on that same day, when you saw Lugar

24 beating Dikan? Naturally, you can only state what you know.

25 A. I don't remember, because I was loaded on the truck from the MUP

Page 10995

1 building, together with several other people, whereas the others were

2 collected at the headquarters building. I was taken from the MUP building

3 to the headquarters building and then back to MUP. They did what they

4 wanted, so that finally we were all disoriented. But I know for a fact

5 that I was finally loaded onto the truck from the MUP building.

6 I was in such bad shape that I was unable to climb onto the

7 truck. The others had to lift me up. It was somewhat dark at the time.

8 Q. Sir, some details that I discussed with Mr. Zaric and that have to

9 do with that are somewhat different from your account. They're not very

10 material details, but, however, Mr. Zaric told me that when he had entered

11 the TO courtyard, he was together with Savo Cancarevic and Mihaljo and

12 Topolovac and that Topolovac had read out the names from the list and that

13 you were behind the doors, inside the TO building, almost unconscious, and

14 that others were trying to assist you. Allegedly, even Mr. Zaric

15 approached you behind that door. You asked him for water.

16 So could it possibly be that this is how it was, bearing in mind

17 that you were in a very bad shape? Mr. Zaric, in fact, even told me that

18 he hardly recognised you upon seeing you. Did it perhaps happen in the

19 way that I just described to you?

20 A. While I was imprisoned, I unfortunately was somebody who was most

21 mistreated physically, and on several occasions I was even unconscious

22 about my whereabouts. I know that people had to feed me. Some people

23 gave me water, some people had to throw water over me, but I don't know

24 who these people were. All I can confirm is that when we were boarded on

25 the truck, Mr. Zaric was present, as was Topolovac and Cancarevic.

Page 10996

1 He was probably in a better position to see what was happening

2 there than I was, because my eyes were almost completely closed at the

3 time. I could only hear things, but I couldn't see anything.

4 Q. Well, you know, this is what Mr. Zaric told me, that your

5 condition was incredible, that you were basically unable to open your

6 eyes.

7 I would like to ask you now what is your opinion regarding this

8 transfer to Brcko. Do you think that that was done at the insistence and

9 organisation of Mr. Zaric --

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, if Your Honours please, I mean, the question

11 can only lead to speculation. This witness was barely conscious. How can

12 he comment on the motives behind the transfer, whether it was done at the

13 insistence or organisation of Mr. Zaric?

14 Furthermore, it invites his opinion, and that's again just not

15 necessary, unless this witness has got some direct insight into what

16 motivated the transfer, something he heard or saw or has been told, then

17 of course I have no objection. But the way the question is started to be

18 phrased, it seems to me that we're going straight into some sort of

19 invitation to speculate.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

21 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. I was asking for personal opinion in this

22 respect. Of course, I can rephrase this question in some other way. I

23 was just trying to simplify about his opinion and what he feels about that

24 now, but I will rephrase the question.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Please rephrase your question.

Page 10997

1 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Sir, let me ask you this way: It is not disputed at all that you

3 were in a critical condition while you were in the TO building and when

4 you were transferred to Brcko. I'm interested in the following: Have you

5 talked to somebody about this transfer to Brcko and how it came about?

6 A. Well, based on things that I have learned, and in accordance with

7 my opinion, we were transferred to Brcko because they wanted to transfer

8 us from Samac because of those Serbs from Serbia who mistreated us the

9 most. This is what we learned later on in Brcko.

10 The other version, the other rumour, was that we had been

11 transferred because other people had been arrested and they had nowhere to

12 take them to. But my personal opinion is that the first version is more

13 probable, that they wanted to save us from those Serbs from Serbia.

14 Q. Yes, thank you.

15 Now, we will cover, in brief, your stay in Brcko. You told us

16 what it was like there. Do you remember that upon your arrival to Brcko,

17 Mr. Zaric came the very next day?

18 A. Let me repeat once again that I was brought to Brcko in such a

19 serious condition. Everybody had plastic handcuffs on them. I was the

20 one without handcuffs. When we got there, they lined us up, and all I

21 could see was some light, a little bit of light. My name was called out

22 and I was immediately taken to another room. After that, Sulejman Tihic

23 and Dragan Lukac were brought there as well.

24 Now, was it the following day or the day after that, I can't tell

25 you for sure. All I know is that Mr. Zaric visited us in that room. I

Page 10998

1 couldn't see him very well, but I could hear him. He was accompanied by

2 another person called Captain Petrovic. He was the security officer with

3 the former JNA, and I remember Lukac asking me whether I knew who that

4 person was. He referred to Petrovic. I replied to him that I didn't but

5 that I had heard of him.

6 One of them -- I don't remember whom -- said he should be taken to

7 see the doctor. I truly don't remember who said that. All I know is that

8 no doctor ever came to see me.

9 Q. Nobody beat you in Brcko; is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. The meals were more regular than while in the TO building; is that

12 right?

13 A. Yes. We received it more regularly; however, I couldn't eat,

14 others had to feed me. But I guess one could say that it was better than

15 in the TO building in Samac.

16 Q. And as a result of those relatively better conditions, you were

17 able to recover somewhat and get on your feet; is that right?

18 A. Yes. It was a little bit better there.

19 Q. Did you happen to hear later on that Zaric was the one who

20 initiated your transfer to Brcko? I realise that you were unable to know

21 that at the time, but did you happen to hear this later?

22 A. Well, listen. I don't know who initiated that. It is possible

23 that he did it. If he had influence there, then it is likely. I don't

24 know who was behind it, but whoever did it, I want to personally thank

25 that person, both on my own behalf and on behalf of everybody else who

Page 10999

1 survived.

2 Q. Thank you very much.

3 I would now like to turn to some details that have to do with the

4 day of exchange, but also some things that you stated earlier, and that

5 have to do with the information that you obtained from your wife. You

6 told, during chief examination, that your wife went to Odzak and was told

7 there that everything was done in order to facilitate your exchange and

8 that as a result of that she was taken to the room where she could

9 overhear the conversation to that effect.

10 After your exchange, meaning after the 4th of July, 1992, you

11 heard all this from your wife; is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did your wife happen to tell you when did this event take place

14 when she was taken to the room to hear the conversation in Odzak? Did she

15 tell you when did that take place?

16 A. According to her, and now that I'm able to analyse all of these

17 events, it could have been somewhere before the 24th or 25th, because

18 between the 24th and 26th of May, the four of us were brought from Serbia

19 in order to be exchanged. That's what we were told, at least. Since the

20 exchange did not take place until the beginning of July, I suppose that it

21 could have been, as I've just told you, at the end of May. My wife at the

22 time was told that we were in Serbia.

23 Q. Did your wife tell you something about who was present in that

24 room in Odzak and between whom did the conversation take place? Or

25 rather, who was the person on the Samac side taking part in the

Page 11000

1 conversation? Did your wife tell you about these persons? Did your wife

2 know these persons or do you know them?

3 A. She told me about one person.

4 Q. Can you give us the name of that person?

5 A. Ante Gujic [as interpreted].

6 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, I think the name is with K, for the

7 G. Here in the transcript is says G, G-i-c. It's with K.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: How do you spell it?

9 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. K-u-j-i-c.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. It will be corrected.

11 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Was it just that person, Mr. Kujic present there, or were there

13 some other persons present during that conversation?

14 A. I didn't go into great detail with her regarding that. I don't

15 like going back to that. All she told me was that she went on a number of

16 occasions, that she sought this on a number of occasions too, and on that

17 occasion Kujic permitted her to be present when that conversation about

18 the exchange took place.

19 So this was done in order to convince her that they didn't want to

20 exchange me and that they asked for two pilots in exchange for me. Later

21 on I inquired around about whether these pilots really existed, and I was

22 told that they never existed.

23 Q. Just one more question regarding Mr. Kujic, whom you have

24 mentioned. Can you tell us where does he hail from?

25 A. I didn't know him before. Now I know that he lives in Croatia.

Page 11001

1 Q. And how come he was in Odzak and took place in these negotiations,

2 if he was originally from Croatia?

3 JUDGE MUMBA: If you understood the witness's answer, he said he

4 didn't know him before. Later on he came to know that he's from Croatia,

5 not that he was living -- yes.


7 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, I would like now to focus on the very day of

8 your exchange. Let me just ask you one more thing regarding this. You

9 have already stated here that your wife used to work and that she had been

10 hired by Mr. Zaric and that she had known him for many years. I even have

11 some information indicating that you, your wife, Mr. Zaric, and his wife

12 vacationed together several times and that you have a lot in common.

13 So isn't it unusual, then, that your wife, who knows Mr. Zaric

14 very well, did not go to see him and ask him whether he could help you

15 regarding her husband?

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, if Your Honours please, that's first of all

17 inviting him to speculate on his wife's motivations; and secondly, I don't

18 know if Mr. Lazarevic recalls, but he said in evidence that his wife left

19 on the 16th of April and was in Croatian-held territory throughout the

20 period of time.


22 MR. DI FAZIO: -- throughout the period of time until his

23 exchange. I'm pretty sure that was his evidence in chief. So I don't

24 know if -- unless I'm mistaken, I don't know if Mr. Lazarevic is expecting

25 that she would have crossed enemy lines.

Page 11002

1 MR. LAZAREVIC: I'm talking about her presence in Odzak and this

2 whole episode took place in Odzak. This is the way I understood.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Yes. I don't think there's any question --

4 MR. LAZAREVIC: So this is not Croatia. This is still

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Yes. Yes. It may well be. But I understood

7 it was held by Croatian forces, unless I'm wrong. I mean, there's been

8 evidence in the fall of Odzak, and she was in areas controlled by Croatian

9 forces that may have been Bosnia-Herzegovina. But the question is why

10 didn't she go and see Zaric, Mr. Zaric.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Only the wife can answer that.

12 MR. LAZAREVIC: That was not my question. I apologise. I --

13 first of all, my question was not why she didn't went to see Mr. Zaric,

14 why she didn't speak with Mr. Zaric when she already heard him --

15 MR. DI FAZIO: On the radio.

16 MR. LAZAREVIC: On the radio, yes.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: My apologies. I misunderstood, then. I thought

18 counsel was asking this witness why his wife didn't go into

19 Serb-controlled Bosanski Samac and speak to Mr. Zaric. I thought that was

20 a bit unrealistic, but I apologise. I misunderstood the question.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

22 MR. LAZAREVIC: Well, anyway, that question of mine was a bit

23 speculative regarding this witness. But maybe he spoke with his wife and

24 maybe he asked her, "Why didn't you do that?"

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, maybe, because only the wife who was present

Page 11003

1 could answer that.


3 JUDGE MUMBA: How much more time, Mr. Lazarevic?

4 MR. LAZAREVIC: 10 to 15 minutes, not more than that.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Please. All right.

6 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Sir, did you perhaps ask your wife about the situation when this

8 happened, did you ask her, "Why didn't you talk to Zaric and tell him to

9 do something to have you transferred to the other side"? Did you speak

10 about this topic with her at all?

11 A. My wife told me that she had been allowed to get in and to hear

12 the negotiations, and they had told her -- they indicated with the gesture

13 with their fingers that she would keep quiet, and she had heard the whole

14 conversation. Then they told her, "See, you can't say that we are not

15 asking for him."

16 Q. Thank you very much.

17 A. Another thing that I wanted to note regarding what Mr. Lazarevic

18 has just said: It is correct that we were on good terms, that my

19 relationship with Mr. Zaric in private life was a good one up until 1992.

20 I would also like to note that my wife, while the phones were

21 still in working order, in April, she called all the neighbours that lived

22 near us. She called the police because she knew some of them. And let me

23 give you an example. Mihaljo Topolovac told her, "Everything's fine.

24 Your husband will be here. Nobody's touched him. He will be

25 interrogated, and if he has no blame, if he's not guilty of anything, he

Page 11004

1 will come home." Everybody that she got in touch with told her the same

2 thing.

3 Q. Sir, I would now like to go through the day of your actual

4 exchange. You told us here already that you were taken from the police

5 station and that you were among the first ones to get on the bus in front

6 of the school and that then you had to wait for the bus to be filled with

7 all the other people that were to be exchanged.

8 Do you remember an incident that occurred at that time, when the

9 police officers from Gorica came, and that they wanted to get you off the

10 bus? Do you remember that?

11 A. Could you please clarify where?

12 Q. You entered the bus in front of the high school building; that was

13 the incident that I want to talk about now. That's the first incident.

14 So you are already on the bus, and several police officers came

15 from Gorica. They saw you and wanted to get you off the bus, because they

16 didn't want to allow you to be exchanged and they wanted to keep you

17 there. Do you remember that?

18 A. Let me tell you: When I was brought to Samac, when I was put on

19 the bus, I didn't look left or right. I just stood there and I could

20 hardly wait for the bus to be filled with people and for us to leave.

21 Believe me, I don't really remember that, the events in Samac.

22 As regards Samac, in fact, I remember some other incidents, but I

23 don't remember this one in Samac. I really don't. That's the first time

24 I hear about it.

25 Q. Of course, I cannot insist on you answering about things that you

Page 11005

1 don't remember, but I want to know whether you remember an incident that

2 occurred in Lipovac, when some soldiers from Vukovar also wanted to board

3 the bus and to take you out of the bus, you personally, and to do

4 something to you. I wouldn't want to speculate what they wanted to do,

5 but at any rate, do you remember that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you remember that Zaric stood between you and those people, and

8 not only him, but some other people from Samac?

9 A. I remember just that on the 5th of July -- we were brought there

10 on the 4th -- when we were supposed to go for the exchange from the stop,

11 some people came there and walked around the bus and came to the window

12 where I was sitting, knocking on the pane, jumping onto the bus.

13 I was sitting next to a man, whose full name I remember, and he

14 told me, "Let's change seats." And I said, "No, no. I'd rather remain

15 where I am." I was sitting in the middle of the bus. I remember that I

16 was sitting on the left-hand side. That was the side where the driver's

17 seat is.

18 There was some kind of a ruckus there at the entry to the bus.

19 Some people were not allowed to get in. I don't know who was there, but I

20 do know that they wanted to take me out of the bus. But the security that

21 was there would not allow them to take me out of the bus.

22 Q. Thank you very much.

23 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, I would like to tender two documents

24 into evidence. These are lists of exchanged persons for July 4th, 1992.

25 First list is a list of exchanged women and children. This is the

Page 11006

1 document that we received from the Office of the Prosecution. We have

2 official translation. And I would like the witness to take a look at the

3 document regarding certain names that are on this list.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Does the document have an ERN number, I wonder?

6 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, it does. 00734763.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

8 MR. LAZAREVIC: I already gave a copy to our colleagues from the

9 Prosecution. It was yesterday, so they do have this. Their document. We

10 received it from the OTP.

11 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, this is the document that we received from

12 the Prosecution. If you could perhaps put the B/C/S version on the ELMO.

13 The two versions are exactly, in fact, the same, because it's just a list

14 of names, but this would allow the defendants to follow.

15 A. Well, the letters are rather small, so I don't see it will be

16 quite legible.

17 MR. LAZAREVIC: Mr. Usher, if you can magnify a bit this document,

18 because the witness is complaining about letters that are very small.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: You can direct the witness to the numbers of the

20 names.

21 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. I will direct the witness to the numbers.

22 Q. [Interpretation] Well, sir, I think that now we can read it quite

23 clearly on our screens. The person listed under 9, you will agree with me

24 that it says here Cvitkusic, Ljuba.

25 A. Yes.

Page 11007

1 Q. Do you know this person, personally? Her nickname is Ljupka.

2 A. No.

3 Q. If I were to tell you that this is the daughter of Ivana Prgomet,

4 perhaps now this would remind you. It would be easier for you.

5 A. If I'm not mistaken, Cvitkusic would then be her married name.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And what was her married name? Prgomet?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you know her, then?

10 A. No, but I can now tell who the person would be.

11 Q. All right. Now we have under 10, Matic Adila, and it says plus 2.

12 This means, or at least according to the practice that we've seen here

13 at the Tribunal, this would mean that she had two children with her. Do

14 you know Adila Matic? She is the wife of Ante Matic.

15 A. Of Ante Matic. I don't know who Anto Matic would be.

16 Q. He's Djuro Prgomet's cousin.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction. Nephew.

18 A. Well, if she is from Samac, could you please tell me who she is,

19 because this last name, Matic, it's a Croatian last name, and Adila,

20 judging from her first name, I would say she is a Muslim.


22 Q. [Interpretation] All right. Here we have the next person, Mara

23 Matic. She is Djuro Prgomet's sister, married to a man by the name of

24 Matic.

25 A. I see the name, but I don't know her. I don't know these people.

Page 11008

1 Q. Under number 13, we have Snjezana Prgomet. Do you know her, by

2 any chance?

3 A. Well, the name Snjezana rings a bell, but now if you could just

4 remind me. This name Prgomet is probably her married name.

5 Q. This is Mario Prgomet's sister. So that would not be her married

6 name.

7 A. So she is still unmarried?

8 Q. Yes. And here we have also Mara Prgomet, under number 14. Do you

9 know her? She is Djuro Prgomet's wife?

10 A. Well, I do know quite a few people, but I'm really sorry. Perhaps

11 I do know Djuro, I don't remember Mara any more. But I know approximately

12 where their house is, and I guess that these would be the people that I'm

13 thinking of.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lazarevic, what are you trying to establish on

15 this list?

16 MR. LAZAREVIC: I will get to my point in this second.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Because we are not getting anywhere with the

18 witness.

19 MR. LAZAREVIC: I believe that we will get in a second.

20 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, you said that you knew Djuro Prgomet, and

21 all the people here are women of Croatian ethnic origin related to Djuro

22 Prgomet; is that correct?

23 A. Well, they are named Prgomet, but I don't know if they're related

24 to him. Now, you are saying how they are related to him, but I don't know

25 them.

Page 11009

1 Q. I'm asking you this because of the following fact: All these

2 persons are related to Zaric, whose daughter, Natasa Prgomet was married

3 to a member of that family. That was her father-in-law, his brother, his

4 wife, sister-in-law, and their two children. Do you now remember that?

5 A. I remember, but I don't -- I can't recall the image now, but I do

6 know that she was married to that family, to the family of Djuro Prgomet.

7 I think they lived in Samac, in Pionirska Street, near Mebos. I know

8 approximately where the house was. I know Djuro, but I don't remember

9 these people.

10 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, I had in mind to tender one more

11 document. It is related to the men that were exchanged on this.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: So let's have --

13 MR. LAZAREVIC: In this situation, I really don't feel I should do

14 that maybe. But if the witness can only confirm if some of the persons

15 were exchanged together with him, I don't need to tender this document

16 into evidence.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Why don't you just ask him by narrating the

18 names, if he can remember them? Can we have this one marked for

19 identification only, then.

20 MR. LAZAREVIC: If I can only have the number --

21 JUDGE MUMBA: For identification.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be marked as D30/4 for

23 identification.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: And the Serbo-Croat one will be D30/4 ter. All

25 right.

Page 11010

1 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, I'm not certain if we need an ID

2 number for this document, because we received it from the Prosecution, and

3 I don't believe that they will have any objection regarding this document,

4 and particularly since I know that this document will be used again by

5 Mr. Lukic in his cross-examination.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: No. The problem is that the questions you put to

7 the witness regarding the contents of these documents, he doesn't know any

8 of these people.

9 MR. LAZAREVIC: Okay. Then I don't want to insist on this. Okay.

10 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, when were you exchanged? Or rather, when

11 you were exchanged, were Djuro Prgomet, Prgomet Marko, and Ivo Cvitkusic

12 with you? Do you know these three people, and were they with you when you

13 were exchanged, and were they exchanged with you?

14 A. As far as I can remember, we who were exchanged, we set off on the

15 4th, but we were in fact exchanged on the 5th, between 12.00 and 1.00, and

16 I saw a list here when I was here the last time. There were about 40-odd

17 of us who were on the bus. And I think that the persons that you

18 mentioned, I don't remember whether they were with me on the bus, because

19 there were five buses. And let me just mention in this regard that when

20 we were exchanged, when we were brought to the line of exchange, when we

21 came there from the direction of Serbia, my bus was the first, and there

22 was a roll-call. On the other side, from the Croatian side, a bus came

23 in. I don't know how many people were there. I only know that our names

24 were read out on our side. I suppose that the same thing happened for the

25 first bus there, to verify who was there, and the other buses that had

Page 11011

1 come in, they just got off and moved onto another bus on the other side,

2 and their names were not called out. I don't have any doubts about the

3 fact that these people were exchanged, but I really don't remember that

4 they were with me on the bus.

5 Q. Could you please confirm for me that these people were related to

6 Mr. Zaric?

7 A. The persons by the name of Prgomet were.

8 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Previous translation continues]

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic. We have three minutes to go before

10 the break, because we are expecting to start the other witness at 1600

11 hours.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Do you perhaps think, Your Honours,

13 that it would be wise for me to start my cross-examination right now? As

14 far as I'm concerned, I can do it, but I don't know --

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you can start.

16 Cross-examined by Mr. Lukic:

17 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir, Witness A. I will not

18 repeat the same things that my colleague already told you about the way in

19 which the examination will go on. I am Novak Lukic and I am the Defence

20 counsel for Mr. Tadic, and I will be conducting this cross-examination on

21 his behalf. I will try to ask questions in such a way that they are very

22 short and clear, to elicit very precise answers. If you have the

23 information, then please answer with my question, preferably, with yes or

24 no. If you don't remember or if you don't know, please say so. In the

25 few minutes that we have, I will make a brief introduction through my

Page 11012

1 questions.

2 You first spoke with the investigators from the OTP in 1994.

3 That's what you said to my colleague Mr. Lazarevic; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. After that, you spoke with the Prosecutors in 2001, in June. Do

6 you remember that? This conversation took place in Odzak, as far as the

7 Prosecutors informed us. Do you remember that conversation?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You also spoke with the Prosecutors in June this year. Do you

10 remember how long this interview took in June this year, when you spoke to

11 the representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor?

12 A. I don't remember how long it took.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have our break, and we'll continue with

14 Witness A tomorrow at 1415 hours. We shall continue our proceedings at

15 1600 hours with the other witness.

16 [The witness stands down]

17 --- Recess taken at 3.40 p.m.

18 --- On resuming at 4.04 p.m.

19 [The witness entered court]

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner. Before we proceed, yesterday I had

21 indicated to the legal officer that the Prosecution witnesses, the Bobics,

22 could be released, because it won't be possible to hear them this week.

23 MR. WEINER: We're going to e-mail our counterparts back at the

24 office and notify them to release them immediately.


Page 11013

1 MR. WEINER: Thank you.


3 [Witness testifies via videolink]

4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you may proceed.

6 MR. WEINER: We're having a problem with the video.

7 All right. Thank you.

8 Examined by Mr. Weiner: [Continued]

9 Q. Good morning, Mr. Subasic.

10 A. Good morning.

11 Q. Yesterday we talked about a couple of matters. We talked about

12 several matters, and I would just like to clarify two before we move on.

13 Yesterday we discussed visits to the primary school by

14 Miroslav Tadic to read the persons' names who were to be exchanged. And I

15 asked you if you were certain as to the number of visits, and you

16 indicated no, you didn't know the number. Do you recall that, sir?

17 A. I do.

18 Q. My question is: Although you don't know the exact number, are we

19 speaking of one visit, two visits, or several visits that Miroslav Tadic

20 made to the school?

21 A. Several visits.

22 Q. Do you recall whether Miroslav Tadic visited the primary school in

23 June of 1992?

24 A. I don't recall.

25 Q. If I would read this line to you, tell me if this refreshes your

Page 11014

1 recollection, on page 4 of the 1998 interview:

2 "Sometime during mid-June 1992, Miroslav Tadic came to the primary

3 school. He came into the gym where we were detained. Tadic came together

4 with some people from the Serbian Red Cross in Bosanski Samac."

5 Does that refresh your recollection at all, sir, as to whether or

6 not Miroslav Tadic visited in June of 1992?

7 A. If that's what I stated then, that he had come in June, then he

8 must have. A long time has passed since the moment when I gave that

9 statement. It's been four years.

10 Q. But you recall during the summer period he came several times?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, yesterday, sir, we also had some discussion about your going

13 back to the Territorial Defence building, also referred to as the TO, at

14 the end of the summer, sometime in late August. Now, that was your --

15 according to your second detention there.

16 When did you see Dr. Blagoje Simic, when you were detained that

17 second time at the TO or at the time of your first detention at the TO in

18 April? When did you see Dr. Blagoje Simic at the TO?

19 A. On the second occasion.

20 Q. And where did you see him in the TO facility, in what part of the

21 facility?

22 A. In the courtyard of the TO building.

23 Q. And how long was he there?

24 A. Not long. Perhaps some five to ten minutes.

25 Q. Okay. Now, in November of 1992, while you were being held at the

Page 11015

1 TO, did something happen? Were you transferred?

2 A. Yes. In late November of 1992, we were transferred to the

3 Batkovici camp, near Bijeljina.

4 Q. And when you say "we," about how many -- first, when you say "we,"

5 do you mean other prisoners?

6 A. All of the prisoners from Samac were transferred to the camp in

7 Batkovici.

8 Q. So at that point, you had been in various camps in Samac from May

9 of 1992 through November of that same year?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And while you were at those prison camps in Bosanski Samac, were

12 you able to bathe or take a shower?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Were you able to wash your clothes?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Were you given sufficient bandages or medical supplies?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Let's continue with the conditions at those camps. Let's talk

19 about the food that you were given. How many meals did you receive each

20 day at those various camps in Bosanski Samac?

21 A. Once a day.

22 Q. And could you tell the Court here what that meal consisted of?

23 A. They would divide one loaf of bread among 16 to 18 people. In the

24 beginning, we would receive some marmalade to put on the bread and some

25 tea, and later on they would give us lard to spread on the bread.

Page 11016

1 Q. Now, sir, what is lard?

2 A. Well, it comes from pig fat.

3 Q. Now, are Muslims allowed to eat lard or this product from pig fat?

4 A. No, they're not.

5 Q. Did the prisoners want to eat the lard?

6 A. They naturally did not want to.

7 Q. Did the guards ever say anything to the prisoners when they

8 received lard for their bread?

9 A. Yes. They would laugh. They would use derogatory terms and say

10 things like, "Well, look at them. They can eat it now," and say things

11 along those lines.

12 Q. What derogatory things did they say to the Muslims in relation to

13 them receiving lard with their meal?

14 A. They would say, "Look at balijas eating pork," and things like

15 that.

16 Q. Now, these portions that you received of bread and tea, was that

17 sufficient, enough of a meal for you or the other men?

18 A. As I told you before, they would divide one loaf of bread between

19 16 to 18 people.

20 Q. And my question: Was that a sufficient amount of food for you,

21 that one slice of bread or however much bread you had? Was that a

22 sufficient amount of bread for you?

23 A. Well, how could it have been sufficient?

24 Q. Well, with that one meal a day, were you or the other prisoners

25 hungry?

Page 11017

1 A. We were, all the time.

2 Q. Did you feel weak from the lack of food?

3 A. Yes, we did.

4 Q. Did you lose any weight? Did you or any -- start off with you

5 yourself. Did you lose any weight?

6 A. Yes, I did, about 25 kilogrammes.

7 Q. How do you know that you lost 25 kilogrammes?

8 A. When we came to the Batkovici camp, then in December the Red Cross

9 came and registered us, and then they weighed us, gave us some clothing,

10 and this is how I learned how much I weighed.

11 Q. Were you the only prisoner who lost weight or did any of the other

12 prisoners lose a significant amount of weight?

13 A. Everybody had lost weight.

14 Q. And before we leave this topic of food at the camps in Bosanski

15 Samac, who was responsible for bringing the food to the various prison

16 camps in Bosanski Samac?

17 A. I don't know the name of that person, but I know that he was the

18 brother of Miroslav Tadic.

19 Q. Now, you went to Batkovici. At Batkovici, were the conditions

20 better? Worse? The same? How were the conditions at that camp?

21 A. The conditions were better than in Samac, but they were far from

22 good.

23 Q. Well, how many meals were you given a day in Batkovici?

24 A. In the beginning, we would receive three meals, and later on, two.

25 Q. Were there regular beatings at Batkovici?

Page 11018

1 A. No.

2 Q. Were there beatings at Batkovici?

3 A. Sometimes.

4 Q. Were these severe beatings?

5 A. Not particularly.

6 Q. Were prisoners able to bathe at Batkovici?

7 A. They were.

8 Q. Do you know why the conditions at Batkovici were better than those

9 at Bosanski Samac?

10 A. Perhaps the camp was registered by the Red Cross.

11 Q. Well, let's discuss this matter: Do you know whether the local

12 community was involved in the operation of the camp at Batkovici?

13 A. Yes. All of the guards watching us there were from the Batkovici

14 local commune.

15 Q. Now, did you get a chance to speak with some of those guards from

16 the local commune at Batkovici?

17 A. Many times.

18 Q. And did they tell you the role that the local community played at

19 Batkovici?

20 A. They said that on one occasion they put up barricades. It was at

21 the time when the camp had already been opened. They said that they did

22 not want to bring a bad name to their village.

23 Q. And did they tell you what the result was of their protest of

24 barricades against having an infamous camp in Batkovici?

25 A. The result was that they were employed as guards. They also

Page 11019

1 invited the Red Cross over, the camp was registered, and that was it.

2 Q. Now, having local persons serve as guards, were there any severe

3 beatings by the guards as those that you had at the TO or the primary

4 school?

5 A. No.

6 Q. And did these local guards allow the paramilitaries to enter and

7 beat and torture the prisoners?

8 A. They did not.

9 Q. Now, you indicated that while at Batkovici, the Red Cross, the

10 International Red Cross -- or the camp was registered with the

11 International Red Cross. Did the Red Cross ever visit -- and I mean the

12 International Red Cross -- ever visit the prisoners, including yourself,

13 while at Batkovici?

14 A. Yes, it did, approximately every other week or once a month.

15 Q. When was the first time that you saw or met with the International

16 Red Cross at Batkovici?

17 A. I think it was in early December of 1992.

18 Q. And what happened when you met them at that time?

19 A. We were all registered. We were given new clothing, we were

20 weighed, we were sprayed against fleas, we were given some food, canned

21 food, and I think we also got some cigarettes.

22 Q. Now, as a result of being registered with the Red Cross and their

23 visits, were you able to send and receive mail?

24 A. Yes. We were able to send mail through the Red Cross.

25 Q. And while you were detained at Batkovici, did you ever send or

Page 11020

1 receive mail? Did you ever send or receive mail to members of your

2 family?

3 A. Yes, I did, on a number of occasions. I both sent mail and

4 received it.

5 Q. Now, did you have any conversation -- did you or the other

6 prisoners have any conversation with members of the Red Cross concerning

7 the prison camps in Bosanski Samac?

8 A. Yes, we did. We talked to them on several occasions, and we told

9 them about the camp in Zasavica, near Samac. We asked them to go and

10 register that camp in Zasavica.

11 Q. And do you know if anything happened as a result of your

12 conversations with the Red Cross?

13 A. I don't know exactly.

14 Q. Did you later learn that the Red Cross did check on the camp in

15 Zasavica? Did you ever learn whether they did that?

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

17 MR. LUKIC: Objection, Your Honour. [Interpretation] The previous

18 question: Do you know if anything happened as a result of your

19 conversations? The witness said, on line -- on page 37, line 25, the

20 witness replied that he didn't know, and now the Prosecutor repeated the

21 question, even though the witness had already answered it.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

23 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I was just trying to refresh the

24 witness's recollection. I can read a sentence from his -- from the

25 Prosecutor's notes on pages 4 and 5, where he indicates that they had

Page 11021

1 later learned that the Red Cross had inquired and had put pressures on the

2 authorities to check on the camp.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: What statement is that?

4 MR. WEINER: That is the most recent -- the most recent notes or

5 the most recent interview with the witness of last week.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic?

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have nothing against this being

8 pointed out to the witness, like we did yesterday, but I object to these

9 questions which already contain the answer and therefore are leading

10 questions. This previous question, in view of the fact that we had

11 already had the answer, in which the witness said he didn't know, is just

12 not clear to me. There is no need to put these types of questions. This

13 is not a statement of the witness; these are Prosecutor's notes, and I

14 think the Prosecutor should point that out, that he's quoting from the

15 Prosecutor's notes, not from the statement of the witness.

16 MR. WEINER: I just did that. I said these are the notes from the

17 interview of last week. All I want to do is see if I can refresh his

18 recollection. It's not a major point. If you'd like me to move on, I'll

19 move on, but you can use any sort of document, ranging from a piece of

20 paper to, in law school they teach you, a banana to refresh a witness's

21 recollection. Any type of document --

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well, Mr. Weiner. Please move on.


24 Q. How many times did you visit with the Red Cross while at

25 Batkovici? An exact number isn't required. Just a few? Several? Many?

Page 11022

1 Once?

2 A. In the Batkovici camp, I spent some 22 months. The Red Cross came

3 twice a week, sometimes once a month, so you can count how many times it

4 was: Over 20 times.

5 Q. All right. Now, while you were at Batkovici, were you required to

6 perform any type of labour?

7 A. Yes. We worked every day, various tasks.

8 Q. And when you said you worked every day, did you work within the

9 prison camp at Batkovici or outside of it?

10 A. Outside of the camp.

11 Q. What type of jobs did you have to perform outside of the camp?

12 A. Digging trenches, loading, unloading. We worked in the Zitopromet

13 company. On one occasion, they hired us out to work in the Bijeljina

14 prison -- in fact, to work for the Bijeljina prison, a prison in a mill.

15 Then we strung out the high-tension lines from Ugljevik, from the Ugljevik

16 electrical plant, coal-fired electrical plant, power plant, to another

17 place, and then we also worked on a farm. We also worked in the fields in

18 Batkovici.

19 Q. Now, you said -- you indicated that you were hired out. By being

20 hired out, were you and the other prisoners paid for this work?

21 A. No, we were not paid. Those people who hired us out were paid.

22 Q. Now, you said you dug trenches. Where did you dig trenches?

23 A. In Teocak.

24 Q. And where was that in relation to the battle lines?

25 A. I couldn't tell you exactly.

Page 11023

1 Q. Well, in the area that you dug trenches, were there any troops?

2 A. Yes. It was the front line.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

4 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. In fact, it's not a classical

5 form of objection, but I just wonder where we are going with this line of

6 questioning.

7 Batkovici camp doesn't have any relevance to the Samac case.

8 People who are running Batkovici camp are by any -- there's not any

9 relation with the defendants in this case. So I would kindly ask to hear

10 the explanation from the Prosecution; otherwise, my objection is based on

11 the irrelevance with our particular case. Thank you.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner?

13 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I just wanted to cover this issue

14 briefly and have the witness discuss on one occasion, when the prisoners

15 were taken out, 16 to 17 prisoners were in fact killed during an attack,

16 and this witness had to identify those prisoners to see which ones came

17 from Bosanski Samac. He identified the bodies.

18 Now, the reason that I'm trying to introduce this is for three

19 reasons: One, we have to prove, under Article 5, that the crimes

20 committed were widespread and systematic. Having the prisoners dig, not

21 only in Bosanski Samac, outside of Bosanski Samac, having them dig

22 trenches from various camps, proves the widespread and systematic nature

23 of the use of prisoners and civilians for trench-digging in very dangerous

24 situations.

25 Number two, we've had some testimony as to the proof of

Page 11024

1 dangerousness of trench digging, how people were killed, how people were

2 shot.

3 And number three, just the dangerousness that they did not have

4 any barriers or any protections for these people and bullets were flying

5 over their heads. This is further proof or circumstantial proof of the

6 dangerous of trench digging. That's why it's considered inhumane conduct

7 in violation of the various conventions.

8 And finally, number three, it's evidence of a consistent pattern

9 of conduct under Rule 93. The use of forced labour in dangerous

10 conditions was almost a general policy or a modus operandi of the various

11 Serb authorities within the area surrounding Bosanski Samac. And pursuant

12 to the Kvocka decision, what I'd like to do is show it as a consistent

13 pattern of conduct that was perpetrated by the authorities in that area

14 upon those prisoners and villagers, and I'd argue, for those three

15 reasons, this evidence is admissible, and I only want to spend a few

16 minutes on the issue anyway. But I'd argue that it is, in fact,

17 admissible.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner, you should go to those points, salient

19 points, as briefly as possible.


21 Q. Sir, you indicated that -- you indicated that you were on the

22 front lines digging those trenches. Do you recall a situation while you

23 were at Batkovici where a number of people were killed or injured in the

24 process of digging trenches along those front lines? Could you tell the

25 Court.

Page 11025

1 A. In the period between 1993 and 1994, 16 to 17 people were killed.

2 I remember that it was wintertime and that people were taken at dawn to

3 dig trenches. It was still dark at that time, and they were killed en

4 route. I know that because I went there to identify a lad from Bosanski

5 Samac, so I saw the dead people.

6 Q. And how were they killed, sir?

7 A. They were on a truck, shot in a truck, and I think that on that

8 occasion our units carried out an incursion into the rear. I mean, the BH

9 army units carried out an incursion into the rear of the Serbian army, and

10 they thought that these were soldiers going out to relieve another unit,

11 so they killed them by mistake.

12 Q. All right. Now, let us move on.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I was wondering, because the witness said it

14 was between 1993 and 1994, and yet the indictment only goes up to 1993,

15 December.

16 MR. WEINER: Yes. For the same issue, under the Kvocka decision

17 where they had matters which were not listed in the indictment, and they

18 used it as circumstantial proof, once again, not as direct proof against

19 the defendants but as circumstantial proof to establish certain matters

20 within the indictment. Thank you.

21 Q. Now, were you brought, sir -- while you were at Batkovici, were

22 you brought to -- were you brought somewhere for some sort of trial?

23 A. Yes. I was taken to the Bijeljina court.

24 Q. All right. What I'm going to do is read a statement from your

25 1998 statement to the Office of the Prosecutor. We'll move things along

Page 11026

1 on the trial, and I'll ask you a few questions concerning the attorneys

2 and the trial itself after that. But to move things along, let me just

3 read the statement and ask you whether or not this is what occurred:

4 "In the summer of 1993, I was brought to Bijeljina for a trial at

5 the military court. In Bijeljina, I had to give a statement to an

6 investigative judge. I was asked about weapons, whether I had killed

7 somebody, and if I was or had ever been a member of the SDA. After

8 answering these questions, I was taken back to Batkovici. A few days

9 later, some military policemen came with my statement. That statement was

10 totally different from what I had given them. The facts had been twisted

11 and changed. After a few days, I was taken back to Bijeljina for

12 sentencing. I had a lawyer, but in my opinion, this lawyer was even worse

13 than the judge. He did not do anything to help me. I was sentenced to 12

14 years. After sentencing, I was again taken back to Batkovici."

15 Sir, is that a fair and accurate statement as concerns what

16 happened to you in Bijeljina in the summer of 1993?

17 A. Yes, it is.

18 Q. I have a few questions concerning your legal representation or the

19 lack thereof. Were you able to meet with your lawyer prior to

20 questioning?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did your lawyer ever advise you as to the legal issues involved?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did he ever speak to you about the nature of the charges?

25 A. No.

Page 11027

1 Q. Did he ever discuss with you any possible defences or potential

2 witnesses?

3 A. No, he did not.

4 Q. Did your lawyer ever consult with you during questioning?

5 A. No, he did not.

6 Q. What about after questioning?

7 A. Nothing. He was there just for the appearance's sake.

8 Q. Let's discuss the meeting you had with the judge. When you were

9 interviewed by this investigative judge, was this meeting, or however you

10 want to describe it, held in a courtroom?

11 A. It was a room.

12 Q. When you say "a room," do you mean an office or just an empty

13 room? What do you mean?

14 A. It was some kind of an office.

15 Q. Were any witnesses called to testify against you?

16 A. As far as I know, no.

17 Q. Did you call any witnesses to testify on your behalf?

18 A. No, I did not.

19 Q. Well, if there were no witnesses, was a trial held?

20 A. I know that I was sentenced to 12 years in prison, but as to how

21 the trial was carried out, and on what basis, I really don't know.

22 Q. After you were sentenced, you were returned to Batkovici?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And when did you leave Batkovici? What month and year?

25 A. On the 9th of June, 1994.

Page 11028

1 Q. While you were at Batkovici, from November 1992 to June 9th, 1994,

2 did you ever see any of the defendants at that prison camp?

3 A. Yes, I did see Miroslav Tadic on several occasions.

4 Q. Do you recall when you first saw Miroslav Tadic at Batkovici?

5 A. In January 1993.

6 Q. Now, on these several times that Miroslav Tadic visited Batkovici,

7 what did he do?

8 A. He came in with the lists of people for the exchange.

9 Q. And when he came there with those lists of persons or prisoners to

10 be exchanged, who read out those names?

11 A. Sometimes he would read them and sometimes the guards did, but in

12 most cases he himself read them out.

13 Q. When he read them, did he make any racial slurs to you, towards

14 you, at Batkovici?

15 A. I don't remember him saying anything in Batkovici.

16 Q. Where was it that he called the prisoners balijas and Ustasha?

17 A. It was in the elementary school in Bosanski Samac.

18 Q. All right. Let us move to the process of announcing or calling

19 out the names. If a person's name was called, what would happen to that

20 person? Would they leave immediately? Did they leave the next day? Did

21 he go with Miroslav Tadic? What would happen?

22 A. In most cases, they would go with him to the buses and then they

23 would go to Samac, spend a night there, and then they would be exchanged.

24 Q. Now, you previously testified that during the summer of 1992, when

25 a person's name was called out to be exchanged, he received a final

Page 11029

1 beating from the guards. At Batkovici, did anything happen to the

2 prisoners after their name was called out for an exchange?

3 A. Not in Batkovici. There was no abuse there. When the names were

4 read out, the names of the people to be exchanged, they were not

5 maltreated in Batkovici. But I heard that when they were taken to

6 Bosanski Samac to spend a night there, that they were maltreated there.

7 Q. All right. Let's return to the process of announcing the names.

8 Were there ever occasions when a person's name was called but that the

9 person was not present, they were out doing forced labour or they were

10 somewhere else?

11 A. On several occasions, people were out on forced labour. They

12 simply were not there when Tadic came in with the lists of people to be

13 exchanged. And then other people would be put on those lists.

14 Q. Please tell us: What would happen prior to other people's names

15 being placed on the list to replace those that were not there when the

16 names were called out?

17 A. Tadic came into the camp. He read out the names. If somebody was

18 absent -- we would always gather around him. Some people who had money

19 would give him money, and then he would go out and came back in with the

20 amended list and read out their names as people to be exchanged.

21 Q. So when a person -- so if a person was not present, replacements

22 would be added. Now, you said people would give Tadic money to become

23 those replacements. Did you ever witness any prisoner giving the

24 defendant Miroslav Tadic any money?

25 A. Yes, on several occasions.

Page 11030

1 Q. And on those several occasions where prisoners bribed Miroslav

2 Tadic, were their names added to the exchange list?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And were those people released and exchanged that same day or on

5 the following day?

6 A. I think on the same day, that they went on the same day.

7 Q. Do you know the names or can you recall the names of prisoners

8 that bribed Miroslav Tadic to have their names placed on the exchange

9 list?

10 A. On one occasion I was there when Sabah Seric paid Miroslav Tadic

11 to be exchanged, and he went. I saw some other people too, but I don't

12 recall their names. Most of them were Catholics from the Samac

13 municipality.

14 Q. Did Sabah Seric bribe Miroslav Tadic just for himself, or for

15 others to be exchanged also?

16 A. He tried to bribe him for another man too, but Tadic didn't agree;

17 he refused.

18 Q. Did he accept the money first and then refuse, or did he refuse

19 prior to accepting the money?

20 A. I don't remember how it was exactly. I don't think that he

21 accepted money from this other man.

22 Q. Now, prior to Miroslav Tadic's visits to Batkovici, was there any

23 discussion among the prisoners concerning bribing Miroslav Tadic to get

24 your name placed on the exchange list?

25 A. Yes, there was talk. Those who had money knew that they could

Page 11031

1 give the money to Miroslav Tadic to get out.

2 Q. And you were in Batkovici during 1993 and 1994. During what years

3 did this occur? And when I say "this occur," the bribes to Miroslav

4 Tadic.

5 A. In 1993.

6 Q. Did you ever offer Miroslav Tadic a bribe?

7 A. I didn't, because I didn't have any money.

8 Q. And you remained in prison until June 1994?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And just a few other questions relating to Miroslav Tadic. When

11 you saw him at Batkovici, had his appearance changed, his facial

12 appearance?

13 A. Yes. He had a long beard. I don't remember exactly, but I do

14 know that he had a very big beard. I don't remember any other changes.

15 Q. Now, speaking of exchanges, were any members -- just first yes or

16 no: Were any members of your family exchanged?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Let's begin with your wife and daughter. When were they

19 exchanged?

20 A. In October 1992.

21 Q. And where were they exchanged to?

22 A. I think in Dragalic, but I'm not sure.

23 Q. And do you know whether any of the defendants were present at that

24 exchange?

25 A. My wife told me that Miroslav Tadic was present there.

Page 11032

1 Q. Your mother, was she exchanged out of Bosanski Samac?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you know when she was exchanged from Bosanski Samac?

4 A. I think it was in June or July 1993.

5 Q. And do you know -- where did she go, if you know?

6 A. I think the exchange took place in the same place, but I'm not

7 sure.

8 Q. Dragalic. Do you know whether any of the defendants were present

9 at your mother's exchange in June or July of 1993?

10 A. My mother told me that Miroslav Tadic had been there.

11 Q. At the beginning of your testimony, you mentioned your

12 grandparents living in Bosanski Samac. Were either of your grandparents

13 exchanged?

14 A. No.

15 Q. What happened to your grandmother?

16 A. My grandmother died in December 1993, and my grandfather fled from

17 Samac in 1994, in September.

18 Q. Could you tell us why your grandfather fled Bosanski Samac in

19 September?

20 A. When he came there, he told us that some Serbs had come and had

21 told him that he had to leave the house, to move out, that they needed the

22 house, and he had no other choice but to flee Samac.

23 Q. How long had your grandfather lived in that house that he was told

24 that he had to vacate?

25 A. Perhaps 50 years.

Page 11033

1 Q. Did this happen just to your grandfather in September, or was

2 anyone else told that they had to vacate their homes at that time?

3 A. Yes. My neighbours from across, a family -- there was a Catholic

4 family -- in fact, just the man was Catholic. They also had to leave

5 their house.

6 Q. Was this just one neighbour or several neighbours?

7 A. Three neighbours, three persons.

8 Q. And of what ethnic group were these three persons? Were they all

9 Catholic Croatians or were they of various ethnic backgrounds?

10 A. The husband and wife were Catholic, and the third person was a

11 Muslim.

12 Q. And persons of what ethnic group told them that they had to vacate

13 their homes?

14 A. Serbs.

15 Q. Did your grandfather and those neighbours do anything as a result

16 of being told that they had to vacate their homes?

17 A. No. They did nothing. They simply fled Samac.

18 Q. And during what month did they flee Samac?

19 A. In September.

20 Q. Now, when were you exchanged? You said in June of 1994?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. How many people were exchanged with you?

23 A. I think there were 12 of us prisoners and some 150 civilians.

24 Q. Where were you exchanged?

25 A. I was exchanged in Satorovici. That's a village near Brcko.

Page 11034

1 Q. And that's within the state of Bosnia?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And where did you go after you were exchanged?

4 A. To Slavonia, where my wife and children were.

5 Q. Now, at the time of your exchange, what physical injuries were you

6 suffering?

7 A. I had three broken ribs, my teeth were knocked out, I had

8 difficulties in eating and with sleeping, I was quite tense.

9 Q. How long did the problem that you had with eating last?

10 A. About three months.

11 Q. Did any of these physical problems exist prior to your

12 imprisonment in April of 1992?

13 A. No.

14 Q. What, if any, emotional problems did you have upon being exchanged

15 in June of 1994? You indicated that you had some problems sleeping. What

16 other emotional problems did you suffer?

17 A. I'm quite tense, and I can't spend a lot of time in one place in a

18 closed environment.

19 Q. Any other emotional problems that you've suffered?

20 A. I don't remember.

21 Q. Prior to being imprisoned in 1992, did you suffer these same

22 problems?

23 A. No, I did not, never.

24 Q. At the beginning of your testimony, you mentioned that your family

25 had three homes: Your uncle's home, your mother's home, which was on the

Page 11035

1 same place of land or in a little complex, and else where you had an

2 apartment. What happened to these three homes?

3 A. All of that was confiscated. We have nothing any more.

4 Q. Is anyone living in those three homes?

5 A. Somebody lives in my uncle's house. As for the rest, I don't

6 know.

7 Q. Did your uncle ever give anyone permission to move into his home?

8 A. No, never.

9 Q. Was rent ever paid to your uncle for living -- for the right to

10 live in his home?

11 A. No, never.

12 Q. Has your uncle made any attempt to get his property back?

13 A. I think he did.

14 Q. Has he retained counsel to try and get his property back?

15 A. I think he did. Yes, in fact he did.

16 Q. And when did he retain counsel to try and get his property back?

17 A. I think he went there two years ago, and he paid some money -- I

18 don't know how much -- to the attorney, in order for him to fix the papers

19 for the house.

20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't get the name of the

21 attorney.


23 Q. For the record, what's the name of the attorney, sir?

24 A. Boro Pisarevic.

25 Q. Now, in the past two years since he's retained counsel, has he

Page 11036

1 received his property back?

2 A. Nothing has happened yet.

3 Q. And how many years had that piece of property been in your uncle's

4 family?

5 A. I couldn't tell you exactly, but I think for quite a long time.

6 Q. Now, have you taken any action or has your mother taken any action

7 to get your homes back?

8 A. No, we have not.

9 Q. And why is that?

10 A. I don't understand. Why would I have to pay to somebody for

11 something that has been confiscated and stolen from me?

12 Q. Now, about three to four months after you were exchanged, did you

13 do something?

14 A. What do you mean?

15 Q. Did you join a military group?

16 A. Yes, I did. I was a member of the HVO.

17 Q. And where did you serve in the HVO army?

18 A. Do you mean the place or the armed formation?

19 Q. Both. In what capacity did you serve and where?

20 A. I was in Domaljevac, and I was in reconnaissance sabotage unit.

21 Q. And how long did you serve in the HVO army?

22 A. Approximately one year.

23 Q. Now, sir, you previously indicated that your mother's family had

24 lived in Bosanski Samac for generations. In April, prior to the war, did

25 you have any intention of leaving the town of Bosanski Samac?

Page 11037

1 A. No, I did not.

2 Q. Did your relatives have any intention or want to leave the town of

3 Bosanski Samac?

4 A. No, they did not, as far as I know.

5 Q. Why did you and everyone else leave, all the members of your

6 family? Why?

7 A. We didn't leave; we were expelled from Bosanski Samac.

8 Q. Sir, if not for the beatings, the imprisonment, and the

9 persecution, would you have left Bosanski Samac?

10 A. Probably not.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. WEINER: No further questions.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Cross-examination. Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

14 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. Just a moment. I have to

15 organise my papers.

16 Cross-examined by Mr. Pantelic:

17 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Subasic. My name is

18 Pantelic, and I am the attorney of Blagoje Simic. Now that you have

19 mentioned that you were a member of the HVO unit in the region of

20 Domaljevac, these operations that you were involved in were probably in

21 the front that was in Grebnice region; is that right?

22 A. [No interpretation].

23 Q. You said yes, but the interpreters did not translate that.

24 A. Yes, I said "yes." The interpreter probably didn't hear.

25 Q. Can you hear the interpreter now? Let's make a test. Is

Page 11038

1 everything functioning well? [In English] Can you hear the translator?

2 Can you hear the interpreter?

3 A. I can hear and understand Mr. Pantelic well, or perhaps I should

4 be -- I should speak in English so that we can understand each other

5 better.

6 Q. [Interpretation] All right, Mr. Subasic. Your answer was not

7 recorded, so I thought there was a problem with interpretation. But let's

8 continue.

9 Can you tell me what was the name of this HVO unit that you were a

10 member of.

11 A. It was the 104th Bosanski Samac Brigade.

12 Q. And who was the commander of this 104th HVO Brigade?

13 A. I don't remember the name. It's been a long time.

14 Q. What rank did you hold in the 104th HVO Brigade?

15 A. I had no rank.

16 Q. [No interpretation].

17 THE INTERPRETER: Just a minute. The registrar needs to say

18 something.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Pantelic, since you are speaking the same

20 language as the witness, you started your question before the witness was

21 finished answering. Pause a little bit.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think, Mr. Pantelic, you should speak up.

23 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Madam Registrar, I will take care about

24 the ...

25 Q. [Interpretation] Can you hear me now?

Page 11039

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Mr. Subasic, do you have any information regarding the fact that

3 according to the Dayton Peace Accords, all citizens of Bosnia and

4 Herzegovina, regardless of their ethnicity, have a guaranteed right to

5 return of their property?

6 A. Yes, I am aware of that. And are you aware of how much this

7 return of the property can cost when you have to pay the attorney? You

8 know that better than I do, because you are in the field in Bosnia, so you

9 should be well aware of this.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Subasic, you are there to answer questions from

11 counsel and you're not supposed to ask him any questions. So just answer

12 questions put to you by counsel. We shall move much faster.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.

14 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Mr. Subasic, I'm asking you now whether you or your mother have

16 initiated the procedure for return of your property, just like your uncle

17 did, by engaging a local attorney.

18 A. No, we have not done so.

19 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, I will have a couple of questions with

20 regard to the witness's -- among these witnesses certain number are

21 protected, so I would kindly ask to go into private session because of the

22 protective measures.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: What do you mean? The questions involve witnesses

24 who are protected?

25 MR. PANTELIC: That's correct.

Page 11040

1 JUDGE MUMBA: I see. All right.

2 Can we go into private session, then?

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in private session.

4 [Private session]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

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25 [redacted]

Page 11041












12 Page 11041 redacted private session














Page 11042

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3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

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8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

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17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [Open session]

22 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. So, Mr. Subasic, you are telling us that you and these people that

24 we have mentioned simply discussed private matters and never, ever said a

25 word about their testimonies here and what they testified about here. Is

Page 11043

1 that what you're claiming?

2 A. I don't think that I said I discussed anything with these people.

3 I simply said that I saw these people, and that doesn't necessarily mean

4 that I discussed anything with them.

5 Q. And before these people went to testify here, did you, before

6 that, talk and reminisce about the events that took place in Samac ten

7 years ago?

8 A. No, we did not. I don't know whether you are aware of the reason

9 why I didn't go to The Hague. I had an accident at work. I broke both of

10 my arms, I had a back injury, and was therefore unable to travel.

11 Q. And when was the last time you talked to Esad Dagovic?

12 A. Perhaps a year ago, maybe more.

13 Q. He was in the HVO brigade with you after he was exchanged, wasn't

14 he?

15 A. I don't know. I haven't seen Esad Dagovic since 1992.

16 Q. And what other people from Samac served in that HVO brigade with

17 you?

18 A. I wouldn't like to mention any names. I don't think that's

19 important.

20 Q. Tell me, please: When you talked to Esad Dagovic, did you discuss

21 the statements that you had given to the Prosecution?

22 A. No, we did not talk about that. We had not seen each other for a

23 long time and did not even consider discussing these matters. We talked

24 about private affairs, about his marriage and the fact that he was

25 supposed to come for his vacation here.

Page 11044

1 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, is it appropriate time for a break

2 now? Because I'm going to another line of questioning. Or ...

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well. We shall take our break now for 20

4 minutes and continue the proceedings at 1750 hours.

5 --- Recess taken at 5.30 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 5.52 p.m.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic. Cross-examination continuing.

8 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour.

9 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Subasic, please tell me: This apartment that

10 you lived in in Samac, your mother helped you obtain that apartment; is

11 that correct?

12 A. I didn't get that apartment. That was an apartment owned by my

13 mother, and I merely lived there.

14 Q. She got that apartment from her company; is that correct?

15 A. No.

16 Q. How did she get that apartment, then?

17 A. She got it from the Veterans' Association.

18 Q. But how? Why did she get it from the Veterans' Association? She

19 was not a veteran fighter, was she?

20 A. No. Her father was, and she got it as a child of a veteran.

21 Q. So she had a contract entitling her to use the apartment; is that

22 correct?

23 A. I don't know exactly how it was. We moved into that apartment in

24 December 1991, and the war broke out in Samac in 1992, in April. So we

25 were not able by that time to get all the papers in order for the

Page 11045

1 apartment.

2 Q. When you say "we," who do you refer to?

3 A. I mean myself and my mother.

4 Q. According to some information from Samac, you and your mother

5 moved into that apartment forcibly. Is that true?

6 A. In a way, yes.

7 Q. Well, you probably know that you cannot seek the return of the

8 property if there is no legal owner of the property and if there is no

9 proof of ownership. You are aware of that?

10 A. Yes, I am aware of that, and I already said that I didn't seek

11 anything; I didn't apply for it.

12 Q. That was why -- that was because there was no legal basis for the

13 use of the apartment?

14 A. Yes, there was legal basis for the use, but I was unable to get

15 all the papers in order, and I didn't want to do anything in that

16 respect. But I'm sure that once I am willing to do so, I will be able to

17 fix everything.

18 Q. You worked in the Mebos company. That's a company that

19 manufactured electrical appliances, water heaters and things like that; is

20 that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You worked in the production line in that company; is that

23 correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. During the search of your apartment, some wires were found; is

Page 11046

1 that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What kind of wires were they?

4 A. Just ordinary wires used for fitting the water heaters.

5 Q. You had brought these from the factory; is that correct?

6 A. No. I had bought them.

7 Q. So you constructed water heaters in your apartment; is that

8 correct?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Why did you buy the wires?

11 A. I fixed water heaters for other people in the apartment -- in

12 other people's apartments.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's mistake.

14 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. You also fitted thermostats in water heaters; is that correct?

16 A. I don't remember. If it was necessary, I did so.

17 Q. When the inspector in the police asked you whether you had

18 constructed some kind of sabotage, booby traps, and other types of

19 explosive devices because the wires that had been found in your apartment,

20 what did you say to Milos Savic in the police station?

21 MR. WEINER: I object.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

23 MR. WEINER: I have no copy of any statement that this witness

24 made Milos Savic, and he just -- and counsel just asked a question in

25 relation to what Milos Savic asked this witness. If they have a copy of

Page 11047

1 these statements, I would ask that it be provided to us immediately. That

2 never came out on direct, that question there, so if they have a copy of

3 the statement, I'd ask that it be provided to us.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

5 MR. PANTELIC: No statement, Your Honour. Obviously, if we would

6 be in possession of such a document, we would deliver that immediately to

7 the Prosecution. It's simply an information from the field about the

8 background of certain events around this witness, so I'm going to explore

9 this area to check what is actually true.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

11 MR. WEINER: He said -- he made an indication "when the inspector

12 asked you," and once again, if they have any proof or indication, other

13 than -- if all he has is some information he's heard, then he should ask

14 it in a different manner. He's asking it as if it did in fact happen. He

15 can ask if they did ask you that.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It's the way that the question has been

17 phrased that is the problem.

18 Yes, Mr. Pantelic. You've understood what Mr. Weiner is saying.

19 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, yes. I will rephrase the question.

20 Q. [Interpretation] So, Mr. Subasic, you will agree with the claim

21 that there were grounds for suspicion on the part of the police that you

22 were engaged in subversive activities and that is why you were arrested;

23 yes or no?

24 A. I wouldn't agree with this.

25 Q. But since you were a member of the sabotage unit in 104th Brigade

Page 11048

1 of the HVO, you were, in a way, an expert for subversive activities; is

2 that correct?

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner?

4 MR. WEINER: Objection. He was a member of that unit almost two

5 and a half or two and a quarter years after the search of his home.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: This is after his exchange?

7 MR. WEINER: Correct. Three months later he then joins the unit.

8 You can't base his activities two and a quarter years or 27 months earlier

9 based on what he did later.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

11 MR. PANTELIC: Well, Your Honour, I think there is a basis for

12 that, because if the person has technical or personal knowledge of certain

13 items, equipment, booby traps, he can use his personal knowledge while in

14 the combat operations. So, for example --

15 JUDGE MUMBA: I don't think you've understood. The objection is

16 that he joined this 104th Brigade after his release, three months after he

17 was exchanged, in 1994, and your question is based on his arrest in 1992,

18 isn't it?

19 MR. PANTELIC: That's correct. I want to make a link between

20 these two periods of time, and that's the basis of my question,

21 Your Honour.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: So you first ask him whether he was engaged in such

23 activities in 1992.

24 MR. PANTELIC: Okay.

25 Q. [Interpretation] All right. Mr. Subasic, you performed certain

Page 11049

1 subversive activities for the SDA, the armed forces of the SDA in Samac,

2 in 1992; is that correct?

3 A. No. I was not a member of any party in Bosanski Samac.

4 Q. But you did have the requisite knowledge to make timed explosive

5 devices; is that correct?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did you have the requisite knowledge to turn a water heater into

8 an explosive device?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Well, what kind of knowledge did you have that qualified you to be

11 in the sabotage unit of the 104th HVO Brigade in 1994? Did you make any

12 kind of sabotage devices there?

13 A. No.

14 MR. WEINER: I'd object, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

16 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, he was a member of it's either the

17 sabotage and reconnaissance or the reconnaissance and sabotage unit. No

18 one's even brought out what he did within that unit to even take it to

19 that next level. They're trying to leave an inference that because he was

20 in that unit, he was definitely in the sabotage side of it. If you'd like

21 to question him what he did in that unit, maybe it would be enlightening.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic. I think there is a problem with

23 mixing the information and not directing the questions to the activities

24 of the witness at the relevant period.

25 MR. PANTELIC: Well, in any case, Your Honour, since it's a little

Page 11050

1 bit in war period, it's quite suspicious activity that someone has this

2 equipment and wires and the thermostat in his apartment. Probably for the

3 police members he was simply suspicious doing certain equipment, and then

4 they arrested him and tried to explain --

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. No one --

6 MR. PANTELIC: That was my basis of the questions, so I just try

7 to explore this issue, nothing more.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: I think you have done that sufficiently.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm really sorry, but when you

10 say --

11 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. You wanted to say something?

13 A. When you said that the police found the thermostat and wire in my

14 apartment, I never mentioned that the police had found the thermostat,

15 They only found the wire. For me, it was so insignificant. Any of us

16 would have a piece of wire in their homes, perhaps several metres of

17 wire. You would use it to install the speakers or to change the wire in

18 the water heater, but thermostats were never mentioned.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: I think, Mr. Pantelic, you can move on.

20 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Yes, but in 1992, did they suspect you of making such explosive

22 devices? Did they accuse you of it? The police, did they do so?

23 A. Well, they accused each of us of something.

24 Q. Well, that was not my question. My question referred to you. Can

25 you tell us: What did the police accuse you of?

Page 11051

1 A. When they came to take me with them, they told me that I would

2 only have to make a statement, and then when I came there, they asked me

3 about the wire, and the other questions were how many Serbs I had killed,

4 how many women I had killed by slitting their throats, how many women I

5 had raped. So the wire was mentioned as an aside. In the whole course of

6 my imprisonment, nobody ever mentioned the wire at all.

7 Q. Yes, but a few days ago, when you answered the questions of the

8 Prosecutor, on the 8th and 9th of July, on page 2 of his notes, you said

9 the following.

10 [In English] "They seized some tools and wire at his apartment."

11 That's your apartment. "They accused him of using the wire to make

12 bombs."

13 [Interpretation] That's what you said to the Prosecutor; is that

14 correct?

15 A. Yes, but I also stated in my statement what Savo Cancarevic had

16 told me and what he had asked me when I came to the SUP.

17 Q. On several occasions in your statements you spoke about the fact

18 that when you were imprisoned in Samac, detained in Samac, in various

19 locations, that there were frequent power cuts, blackouts. Do you confirm

20 that?

21 A. I don't remember saying that.

22 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, for the record, I would ask him to

23 state -- or to identify the places where he indicates that exists. I

24 don't recall that either in his statement.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic?

Page 11052

1 MR. WEINER: Maybe I'm wrong, but ...

2 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. I'm asking you about when you were detained in Samac in the TO.

4 Do you have any personal knowledge of the fact that in that period, while

5 you were in Samac, that the electricity would go out frequently?

6 A. I don't remember.

7 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Pantelic, but you had mentioned

8 that on several occasions the witness had said about frequent power cuts,

9 blackouts, while he was imprisoned in several locations in Bosanski Samac,

10 and Mr. Weiner asked for some reference to it. Maybe you could direct us

11 to where you were talking about that, or rather, where you were reading

12 it.

13 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. In fact, I'm checking with my

14 colleagues, maybe it was an error in my notes. But I'll try to find out

15 of his personal knowledge about the situation, and he answered that he is

16 not aware about that.

17 MR. WEINER: I have no problem with that, Your Honour. I just

18 don't want it to be considered a prior inconsistent statement, because it

19 doesn't exist here, or I haven't seen it.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: I think Mr. Pantelic has moved on, because he has

21 now asked the question directly to the witness.

22 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. It was not my intention to catch the witness,

23 you know, in this inconsistency, no, no, no. It was just a question with

24 regard to the general conditions in the town, nothing special.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well, then. Please move on.

Page 11053

1 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, yes.

2 Q. [Interpretation] So, Mr. Subasic, can you please tell me: Do you

3 have any personal knowledge of the fact that while you were in Samac

4 during the combat operations, was the power supply -- the water supply

5 also cut in the town? Do you have any knowledge of that?

6 A. No, I don't.

7 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge of the fact that Samac was

8 shelled quite frequently at the time when you were detained there?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. How often -- and can you tell us where the shells fell?

11 A. I can't tell you where the shells landed.

12 Q. But you did hear the detonations and the explosions?

13 A. Well, of course. Samac is a small town, so one can hear the

14 explosions.

15 Q. Please tell me: Since you mentioned to the Prosecutor that you

16 saw my client, Mr. Blagoje Simic, in the TO courtyard, you mentioned that

17 yesterday and today you gave some additional information, can you please

18 remember if it was in the beginning of August or in mid-August 1992 when

19 my client allegedly was seen in the courtyard of the TO building?

20 A. Well, I can't really tell you. I know that it was in the summer

21 of 1992, but I can't remember the exact month, because while we were

22 imprisoned there, we lost all sense of time.

23 Q. But at any rate, what you said to my colleague from the

24 Prosecution, we could say you said that it was in August; right?

25 A. Well, possibly. It was the only time, and it was for a very short

Page 11054

1 period of time, perhaps five or ten minutes, not longer than that.

2 Q. Where were you at the time when you allegedly saw him?

3 A. In the courtyard.

4 Q. Who was around you?

5 A. Other prisoners. I don't remember exactly.

6 Q. You don't remember any names?

7 A. I remember that Kemal Mehinovic was there, Ado Dzakic,

8 Ivan Dzakic. That's as much as I can remember now.

9 Q. Was Dr. Blagoje Simic alone when you saw him?

10 A. There was somebody else with him in a uniform, but I don't know

11 that person.

12 Q. Can you tell me: What was he wearing?

13 A. He had a camouflage uniform.

14 Q. Did he have a beard or a moustache?

15 A. I don't remember.

16 Q. Since, as you say, before the war you only knew him by sight, do

17 you allow for a possibility that you may have made a mistake, since you

18 don't know him that well? Perhaps it was another person?

19 MR. WEINER: I object to that, Your Honour. You're asking him to

20 speculate: Do you allow for a possibility?

21 JUDGE MUMBA: No, no, no. That is a proper question in

22 cross-examination. Mr. Pantelic can proceed.

23 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. So my question related to your statement. Since you said that you

25 knew him only by sight, which means not as well, you didn't know him so

Page 11055

1 well, so perhaps you didn't have any specific knowledge of the way he

2 actually looked. Do you allow for a possibility that may have been

3 another person who looked like him?

4 A. No, I don't allow that possibility. Because if I had made a

5 mistake, other prisoners hadn't made the mistake, because, as I already

6 said, I was not alone there.

7 Q. Well, yes, but I'm asking you first of all about your personal

8 experience, since you don't know that man. How were you in a position to

9 know that that was him? I mean you personally. We'll come to the other

10 prisoners later, but now I'm asking you.

11 A. As I already said, I knew him by sight. And when you say that,

12 that means that I know that person very well, but we are not friends, we

13 are not acquaintances. We know each other from the street, from passing

14 each other in the street.

15 Q. Yes, but just a minute ago, when I asked you to describe him, you

16 told me you didn't remember, so I'm asking you now: Do you remember what

17 Dr. Blagoje Simic physically looked like at the time when you knew him by

18 sight, meaning before April 1992? Do you remember that?

19 A. No, I don't remember that, because it's been a long time.

20 Q. And now, in 2002, all of a sudden you do remember that. Have you

21 talked to somebody in the meantime about that in preparation for the

22 testimony here, or is it just a true recollection?

23 A. I simply remembered this. I haven't talked to anybody about it.

24 I identified Mr. Simic correctly in 1998, and I identified him here

25 correctly again. Another reason why I know Mr. Simic is that he was the

Page 11056

1 head of the dialysis department, and my grandmother went to dialysis every

2 other day.

3 Q. And then, when you say that you went with your grandmother, are

4 you trying to say that you accompanied your grandmother to the hospital

5 and had an opportunity to see Dr. Simic there?

6 A. Yes. Sometimes I went with her.

7 Q. You also said that you identified him in 1998. In what way did

8 you do that? Were you given photographs?

9 A. When the investigators from the Prosecution talked to me, I had to

10 identify persons.

11 Q. And now, when you looked at the defendants present here in this

12 videolink, you basically recognised Dr. Simic, just as you did in 1998,

13 when you were given his photograph; is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Are you tense about something? Should we take a break or can we

16 continue?

17 A. No, I'm not tense.

18 Q. So he looked the same in 1998, just as he looks now; is that

19 right?

20 A. I don't remember exactly.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic, I think you've dealt with this

22 identification problem sufficiently.

23 MR. PANTELIC: Just a couple of questions and I'm finished, Your

24 Honour.

25 Q. [Interpretation] You mentioned that you followed something on

Page 11057

1 Internet. Did you follow the trials here in The Hague on Internet?

2 A. Are you asking me?

3 Q. Yes, I'm asking you.

4 A. Yes. I said that I followed trials.

5 Q. In your 1998 statement you never mentioned the presence of

6 Dr. Blagoje Simic in the TO; isn't that right?

7 A. I don't remember. If I didn't mention it, then probably it was

8 because nobody asked me about it.

9 Q. On the 8th and 9th of July, you said the following to the

10 Prosecution, on page 1. When you spoke about Blagoje Simic, you said you

11 knew him only by sight and that you remember seeing him during the war.

12 You said the following to the Prosecution:

13 [In English] "[Previous translation continues]... occasions while

14 the witness was being detained he saw the defendant in the courtyard of

15 the TO."

16 [Interpretation] Do you remember saying this to the Prosecution?

17 A. I don't know that I stated that I had seen him on two occasions.

18 I saw him only once, and quite briefly at that, five to ten minutes only.

19 Q. Mr. Subasic, bearing in mind that you did not mention him in your

20 1998 statement, bearing in mind that you don't remember what he looked

21 like in 1992 and in 1998, except for the fact that you saw him just now,

22 and in view of the fact that there are inconsistencies in your statements

23 given to the Prosecution, and also bearing in mind what you told us just

24 now, I'm asking you: What is your motive for not saying the truth and

25 claiming that my client, Blagoje Simic, went to the TO? Who made you, who

Page 11058

1 induced you to say that?

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner.

3 MR. WEINER: That's a speech. That's not a question, Your Honour,

4 that's argumentative. If he wants to break that up and ask separate

5 questions, that's fine.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic. If you're challenging the

7 witness on this, you can go ahead and do it, but break it down, as

8 Mr. Weiner has said.

9 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. So I'm asking you now, Mr. Subasic: Since my client claims that

11 he never visited the TO building, who suggested to you that you should

12 mention him now, in 2002, ten years after the events in Samac and after

13 several contacts you had with the Prosecution? Please give me the name.

14 Is it somebody from the Prosecution or some of the people who had are

15 living in the same town with you now?

16 A. Nobody told me to say this. I don't see anything bad about this.

17 Many people came to the TO building. I never said that Blagoje Simic

18 mistreated anybody there. Perhaps he came just out of curiosity there. I

19 don't know what the reason was. And I don't know why is he objecting to

20 the fact that I mention seeing him there when in fact I did see him

21 there. I would understand it if I had stated that he mistreated or beat

22 somebody, but I didn't say anything of the sort. I simply said that I saw

23 him briefly, for some five or ten minutes.

24 Q. But, Mr. Subasic, you told us you did not remember what he looked

25 like in 1992, when you went to the dialysis department with your

Page 11059

1 grandmother; isn't that right?

2 A. Please repeat the question. You are talking too loud, so I can't

3 understand what you're saying. I don't think there is any reason for you

4 to raise your voice.

5 Q. All right. I will repeat my question. You told us here that you

6 did not remember what Dr. Blagoje Simic looked like in 1992, when you went

7 with your grandmother to the dialysis centre. That's what you said to us

8 just now: You don't remember.

9 A. I didn't say it was in 1992, and it is true that I don't remember

10 what he looked like. A lot of time has passed in the meantime, and I

11 simply did not retain this. I don't remember what people who are much

12 closer to me looked like. Ten years have passed.

13 Q. And you also do not remember what he looked like when you

14 allegedly identified him in 1998, when urged by the Prosecution. You

15 don't remember that?

16 A. I don't remember that.

17 MR. WEINER: I'd object to that, Your Honour. I have no problem

18 with him asking what he looked like, even it's the second or third time

19 he's asked it, but the final phrase I'd ask be stricken: "When urged by

20 the Prosecution."

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. There is no evidence to that effect,

22 Mr. Pantelic. And I think I'll stop you. We've gone around this. You've

23 put all the questions, Mr. Pantelic.

24 MR. PANTELIC: One final question, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: No. That's -- on another topic. The final question

Page 11060

1 on another topic.

2 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Mr. Subasic, in 1998 you stated that your wife did not have a work

4 obligation. Do you remember saying that?

5 A. Yes, I remember. She did not have a work obligation.

6 Q. Did she tell you that the reason behind that was that she had

7 minor children?

8 A. My wife herself was a minor, and we had a baby, two-month-old

9 baby, when the war broke out.

10 Q. So did she tell you that that was the reason that she did not have

11 a work obligation?

12 A. She did not know the reason for not having a work obligation.

13 MR. PANTELIC: No further questions, Your Honour. I've finished

14 with this witness.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Next counsel.

16 Cross-examined by Mr. Krgovic:

17 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Subasic. My name is Dragan

18 Krgovic, I am an attorney representing Mr. Miroslav Tadic, and on behalf

19 of him, I will be putting questions to you. I want to pick it up where

20 you left it off with my colleague Pantelic, but, however, your answer was

21 not recorded in the transcript. Your answer to the question regarding

22 shelling of Samac.

23 While you were in Samac, how frequent were these shellings?

24 A. I really don't remember. I know there were shellings, but I can't

25 tell you how frequent they were.

Page 11061

1 Q. Were they daily, monthly, weekly?

2 A. Well, I don't remember, and I wouldn't like to speculate.

3 Q. Another thing I wanted to ask you is this: Yesterday you

4 mentioned serving your mandatory military service. You said that you

5 served in Sarajevo in 1989, in anti-aircraft unit. Is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Tell me, please: After completing your military service, you had

8 your wartime assignment, didn't you?

9 A. No, I did not have a wartime assignment; at least, nobody informed

10 me of this. As far as I know, I didn't have one.

11 Q. After completing your military service, did you report to the

12 secretariat for defence, or the military office?

13 A. Yes, I did.

14 Q. And in your military booklet, did they record your wartime

15 assignment, military assignment in the reserve forces?

16 A. I think they did not, but I can't claim with certainty. Perhaps

17 they did. I simply don't remember.

18 Q. Did you receive call-ups to attend military exercises?

19 A. I did not.

20 Q. Did you receive any summons to go and be issued some equipment or

21 be -- or to have your name entered into some military records?

22 A. No.

23 Q. You mentioned that you worked as a watchman in Mebos. You worked

24 in the security?

25 A. Yes. We had a stepped-up security, and several of us workers who

Page 11062

1 had previously worked in the manufacturing process came to help the

2 regular watchman, or the receptionist, and we worked as security guards.

3 Q. Can you tell me: When were you assigned to do this?

4 A. It was in November or December of 1991.

5 Q. Tell me, please: At the time you were issued with a uniform?

6 A. No, I was not issued with a uniform. I worked in my civilian

7 clothes.

8 Q. So you did not have any type of uniform as a security officer?

9 A. No, I did not.

10 Q. And tell me, please: You had a pistol that you received at work,

11 your service pistol?

12 A. Yes.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Krgovic, can you try to avoid repeating evidence

14 given in chief, please, and simply go to your questions. You see the

15 arrangement with this witness is quite expensive, so if you can -- we can

16 cut down on time as much as possible.

17 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I simply wanted to lay the ground

18 for my next question, Your Honour, but I will try to proceed directly to

19 the question.

20 Q. Mr. Subasic, did you have a permit for your pistol?

21 A. Only within the company's compound.

22 Q. And who issued that permit to you?

23 A. It was the company, Mebos company.

24 Q. And do you know that at the time, only the SUP was authorised to

25 issue weapon permits?

Page 11063

1 A. Yes, I know that, and I think that Mebos must have requested this

2 permit from the SUP.

3 Q. But you did not receive a permit issued by the SUP to carry a

4 weapon?

5 A. No, I did not.

6 Q. But you still had that pistol even when you went home, meaning

7 outside of the factory compound?

8 A. During the war, yes.

9 Q. But you did not have a permit?

10 A. Yes. I did not have permit, but a lot of people carried weapons

11 at that time without a permit.

12 Q. Can you please tell me who else carried weapons without permits?

13 A. Mr. Simo Zaric, Mr. Miroslav Tadic. Did they have permits to

14 carry automatic weapons? I don't know. Where can one obtain such

15 permits?

16 Q. Can you tell me whether your neighbour, Dedo Halilovic, had a

17 permit for an automatic weapon?

18 A. I don't know. I never saw him carrying an automatic weapon.

19 Q. And do you know that your neighbour, Dedo Halilovic, also

20 possessed an automatic weapon called Kalashnikov?

21 A. I don't know about that.

22 Q. Did you socialise with him?

23 A. Not particularly. We knew each other by sight, we greeted each

24 other, but we were not very close friends.

25 Q. His name is Dervis Halilovic, Dedo is his nickname; is that right?

Page 11064

1 A. Yes, probably it is. I know him by his nickname, Dedo, and I know

2 his last name is Halilovic, but I couldn't tell you his first name.

3 Q. And he had also a nickname, Gusak?

4 A. I don't know about that.

5 Q. Can you tell us me, Mr. Subasic, who was your immediate superior

6 while you were in the security at Mebos?

7 A. I think his last name was Sejdinovic. I don't know his first

8 name. I don't remember his first name.

9 Q. I'm asking you this because yesterday, when asked by the

10 Prosecutor about the fact that your supervisor had told you to go and take

11 a rest, you told us that your supervisor was a Serb, so what is it?

12 A. It wasn't my director or my immediate superior who came and told

13 me this. I think that several guys came, one from Crkvina and one from

14 another place, came and told me that I wasn't needed there any more, that

15 I should go home, and if they should need me, they would come and get me.

16 Both of them were Serbs.

17 Q. Did you go to see your immediate supervisor to inquire about

18 whether there is any need for you to come to work?

19 A. No, I did not go.

20 Q. You said that while you worked as a security guard, after April

21 17th, people of Serb ethnicity would come to the Mebos company and drive

22 away the goods from there. Can you tell me whether you took any steps to

23 prevent these people from taking away the goods manufactured at the

24 company?

25 A. I did not take any steps.

Page 11065

1 Q. Did you inform anybody of this?

2 A. I think that I called the police. I told them about that. They

3 told me that they would send somebody regarding this.

4 Q. And who did you talk with in the police?

5 A. I don't remember the employee's name, the one who answered the

6 phone.

7 Q. We will switch to another topic. You said that you went to Cafe

8 AS several times. Do you remember saying that?

9 A. Yes, I remember that.

10 Q. Do you remember that members of all three ethnic communities

11 frequented that cafe, all three ethnic communities populating Samac?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you know that Ibrahim Salkic went to that cafe?

14 A. I don't know about that. I simply said that I visited that cafe

15 several times. I can't tell you who else was there. I really don't

16 remember.

17 Q. And who did you visit that cafe with?

18 A. I think that I went alone. That cafe was on my way to my

19 apartment, so I think I went there alone. I can't even remember whether I

20 had a drink there or not.

21 Q. Do you remember what the interior of that cafe looked like?

22 A. Yes. I remember that the bar was to the right, but I couldn't

23 give you any more details.

24 Q. Mr. Subasic, during your testimony yesterday, on page 37, you said

25 that the night between 16th and 17th of April, 1992, you spent at home and

Page 11066

1 that you went outside at about 6.00 or 6.30. Is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And that afterwards you went to your grandmother's, where you

4 spent some 45 minutes?

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. When did you return back home?

7 A. Perhaps around 7.15 or 7.30.

8 Q. That morning?

9 A. Yes, that morning.

10 Q. On page 39, you said that late in the afternoon on the 17th of

11 April, you saw Miroslav Tadic and Simo Zaric in front of your building.

12 Do you remember saying that?

13 A. I remember saying that.

14 Q. In your statement of the 3rd of May, 1998, on page 3,.

15 "When on the following morning I looked out of my window, I saw

16 many soldiers going from house to house. It looked to me as if they were

17 searching for weapons. I also saw Miroslav Tadic and Simo Zaric sitting

18 on the same military vehicle."

19 Do you remember stating that to the Prosecutor in your interview

20 on the 25th of April and 3rd of May, 1998?

21 A. Yes, I remember.

22 Q. A few days ago, when you discussed with the Prosecutor some

23 things, the Prosecutor's notes reflect you as stating that in the late

24 morning or early afternoon, you saw Miroslav Tadic and Simo Zaric in front

25 of your building. So now I'm curious about this inconsistency in your

Page 11067

1 statement.

2 A. I really don't know.

3 Q. Mr. Subasic, can you recollect now: When did you see

4 Miroslav Tadic and Simo Zaric exactly? I'm interested both in the date

5 and the time of the day.

6 A. Well, let me tell you: That was ten years ago. I can't tell you

7 exactly, but it was in the afternoon, on the first day when Samac was

8 attacked.

9 Q. Mr. Subasic, isn't that right that you cannot be specific about

10 the time when you allegedly saw Simo Zaric and Miroslav Tadic because you

11 were not at home that entire day on the 17th of April? Isn't that right?

12 A. I was at home.

13 Q. Mr. Subasic, let's clear something. Please tell the

14 Trial Chamber: At the time you lived together with your mother Bahrija;

15 isn't that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And she must have told you, since you said yourself she told you a

18 lot of things about what was happening in Samac, that she was very much

19 worried about you throughout the night and day because you only arrived at

20 home -- you arrived home on the 18th at 5.00 in the morning?

21 A. I don't know where you get this information, but that's not true.

22 Q. That morning, your mother went out of the house and went to visit

23 her grandmother and went looking for you around Samac; is that correct?

24 A. No, that's not correct.

25 Q. Mr. Subasic, are you aware of the fact that your mother had spoken

Page 11068

1 to the investigators of the OTP practically on the same day or the day

2 after?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Mr. Subasic, are you aware of the fact that your mother stated to

5 the investigators the following:

6 "I went out of the house -- I went out of the house and then I

7 went to sleep."

8 MR. WEINER: I'd object. They're trying to question him based on

9 what his mother said, and it's not as inconsistent. He's out at 6.30 in

10 the morning, his mother is at home, she doesn't see him, she goes out

11 looking for him. It's consistent with his testimony, but they're trying

12 to impeach him with a statement made by his mother in 19 -- I'll get the

13 exact date. It says dates of interview 2 May, 1950. I think they mean

14 1998, but I'm not -- they've got the wrong date on the statement. It's

15 May 2nd. It says 1950, but I know the interview wasn't in 1950.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Krgovic.

17 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. I'm trying to

18 impeach this witness, but I'm also merely asking this witness whether he

19 is aware of the fact that his mother stated the following, and whether she

20 shared with him what she had told the investigators. And I'm merely

21 trying to investigate whether the witness discussed this with his mother.

22 We had the same situation with Esad Dagovic and his father.

23 So I'm not confronting him with the statement of another witness,

24 nor am I asking him to comment upon it. I'm merely asking him about his

25 personal knowledge of what his mother had said. That's a legitimate way

Page 11069

1 to conduct an examination.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I discussed this with my mother, but

3 I don't remember her stating that. I really don't know what she stated.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Weiner.

5 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I've got no objection if he wants to ask

6 him about his discussions that this witness had with his mother, number

7 one.

8 Number two, however, the Esad Dagovic situation was much

9 different. There was a report which had never been disclosed, and I think

10 the Court made a special ruling based on that. He can do this, ask, you

11 know, what discussions he had with his mother in relation to the issue of

12 bias or if it is a relevant issue. However, they're trying to impeach

13 with the statement of one versus the other. So far we haven't allowed

14 that to be done. But actually, it's not even -- he can do it. It's not

15 even inconsistent. Because when the mother gets the uncle's house, which

16 are both in the same compound, he says it's there. There's no

17 inconsistency.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Krgovic.

19 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm not quoting from

20 the statement. I'm merely asking the witness whether he's aware of the

21 fact that his mother had said this and that, and whether she had done this

22 or that. I'm not quoting from the statement. I'm not trying to tender it

23 into evidence. I'm not confronting the witness with it.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. You can go ahead.

25 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 11070

1 Q. Mr. Subasic, are you aware of the fact -- or rather, did your

2 mother tell you that she was worried about you because you were out the

3 whole night, since you left home at 10.00 a.m., or rather, 10.00 p.m. -

4 I'm sorry - on the 16th of April, and that she said that at 7.00 a.m. she

5 went into town looking for you, that she didn't find you, that she went to

6 her mother's place, didn't find you there either, and then she returned

7 home, and then a neighbour told her that you were safe and that she should

8 not worry, and that you came home at 5.00 a.m. on the 18th of April and

9 that she was unable to sleep? Did your mother tell you about that?

10 A. No, she didn't.

11 Q. Is that right? Is that correct?

12 MR. WEINER: I'd object, Your Honour.

13 A. No, it's not.


15 MR. WEINER: Once again, he's trying to impeach. Just what he

16 said he wasn't going to do, he's doing now he's trying to impeach one

17 witness --

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Krgovic.

19 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Krgovic. I wonder whether I could

20 just ask the witness a small question. I wonder whether you could tell

21 us: During this time period in question that Mr. Krgovic is discussing,

22 where your wife and two-month-old baby were.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the apartment.

24 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

25 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 11071

1 Q. Mr. Subasic, did your mother tell you that she had given a

2 statement to the investigators of the Tribunal in The Hague?

3 A. Yes, she did.

4 Q. Did she tell you that what I just told you, that she stated that

5 to the investigators of the Tribunal?

6 A. No, she didn't tell me that. We didn't discuss it in detail.

7 Q. Mr. Subasic, did you, together with your mother, answer the

8 questions asked by the Prosecutor a week ago?

9 A. No. We did it separately. My mother didn't speak to the

10 Prosecutors a week ago. They merely asked a few short questions.

11 Q. But was she present when you spoke with the Prosecutors?

12 A. No, she was not there.

13 Q. Now I will read from the Prosecutor's notes, just one sentence.

14 [In English] "[Previous translation continues] ... indicate that

15 in July she went to see Miroslav Tadic."

16 [Interpretation] Did I read this correctly? It would indicate

17 that both you and your mother --

18 A. Yes, you read it correctly. I've already told you that they

19 merely asked her a few questions, so she came in for a very short period

20 of time, answered a few questions, and then she left.

21 Q. Yet you said previously that she was not there when you spoke with

22 the Prosecutors?

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

24 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, to clarify it for the record, I was the

25 Prosecutor who interviewed both him and his mother. I interviewed this

Page 11072

1 witness for approximately a day and a quarter. I interviewed his mother

2 strictly not even five minutes, strictly on what she did on that one

3 occasion when she went to bribe or attempt to bribe Miroslav Tadic. For

4 the record.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

6 MR. WEINER: To clarify.

7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. And you were there, you listened in during that conversation?

9 A. Yes, that's correct. I was there.

10 Q. Why, then, did you say previously that your mother was not there,

11 in other words, that you didn't answer the questions put to you by the

12 Prosecutor together?

13 A. I told you previously that she only gave a few short answers to a

14 few short questions. I didn't say I was there, I didn't say I wasn't

15 there.

16 Q. I don't understand your answer. Were you there or were you not

17 there while your mother was answering the questions put to her by the

18 Prosecutor?

19 A. How many times do I have to answer the very same question? I'm

20 answering you the third time.

21 Q. So were you or were you not present when your mother was giving

22 the statement?

23 A. I said: I was present while she was answering a few brief

24 questions.

25 Q. And your mother told you about all the events in Samac, everything

Page 11073

1 that went on during the war and while you were in detention; is that

2 correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 MR. WEINER: When? Don't try -- Your Honour, I don't want that

5 confused that that occurred while I was questioning them last week. Could

6 he state when that occurred.


8 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. When did your mother tell you about that? You said yesterday to

10 the Prosecutor that you spoke with your mother at length about the events

11 in Samac, so my question to you is if you can give me the time frame for

12 when your mother told you about the events in Samac.

13 A. Mostly when I left the camp, immediately after I came out of the

14 camp.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Krgovic, it's now 1900 hours.

16 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one more question.

17 Q. And she never told you that she was worried about you on the 17th

18 of April, 1992 and that she went looking for you around the town?

19 A. There must be some misunderstanding about the 17th of April. I

20 don't know what she stated there, but what she stated was a result of some

21 kind of misunderstanding.

22 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I think it's time now for us to make

23 a break.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: We'll adjourn until tomorrow at 1600 hours with this

25 witness. At 1415 we'll continue with the other witness.

Page 11074

1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,

2 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 17th day of July

3 2002, at 2.15 p.m.