Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12738

1 Tuesday, 26 November 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Case number

8 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Miroslav Tadic, and Simo

9 Zaric.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Mr. Pantelic, you are still continuing

11 examination-in-chief.

12 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Good afternoon, Your Honours. Thank you.


14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 Examined by Mr. Pantelic: [Continued]

16 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Lukic.

17 A. Good afternoon.

18 Q. Before we continue commenting on the documents that we would like

19 to tender, could you please tell me what the situation was in the

20 conditions of high inflation and the problems with the changes in the

21 currency rate. What was the possibility for persons who were working

22 under work obligation? How could they be paid? Was it possible to pay

23 them in goods? Was any such option likely?

24 A. I must tell you that for a while we did manage to actually pay the

25 salaries in cash. Then the soaring inflation took over, so it was

Page 12739

1 difficult to secure this money, so then we resorted to paying for the

2 people working on labour obligation and also salaries for people who

3 worked in different companies and institutions. We paid them in goods.

4 For example, in flour, cans, canned goods, oil, sugar, and so on. And in

5 that way we compensated them up to a certain value for their work instead

6 of paying them salary in cash. I must say that this lasted for quite a

7 while. This continued even after the Dayton Peace Agreement, and even

8 old-age pensioners up until two years ago and underprivileged persons

9 received vouchers through which they could pay for their electricity or

10 obtain certain goods, consumer goods which they needed in order to feed

11 themselves.

12 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me a moment. Mr. Pantelic.

13 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Lukic, with respect to persons who were doing

15 work obligation in what would have been their regular place of employment

16 before the armed conflict, such as yourself, for example, was your rate of

17 pay the same as it was before April 17th? 1992, I should say, to be

18 exact.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. It was much lower.

20 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Were you paid in cash, or were you paid in goods,

21 the way you've described here, at some point in time?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] During the first few months, perhaps

23 until the autumn of 1992, I was paid in cash. And then when the inflation

24 was rampant, then all of us were paid by various goods. All of us were

25 compensated with goods.

Page 12740

1 JUDGE WILLIAMS: And just one last question: Where were all these

2 goods coming from, the flour, the cans, the oil, the sugar, the examples

3 that you gave? Where were these goods being acquired from in order to do

4 such payments?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the municipality we had

6 companies. We had state- or socially-owned companies. One of them was

7 the company Hranaprodukt, which processed fruit or vegetables. They

8 manufactured canned foods and the agricultural cooperative also had a

9 mill, so the grain was processed there in order to get flour. So either

10 those companies provided the goods or we went to Tekstilac, which produced

11 textile goods, which had their price. And based on the value of those

12 textile goods, we would give people the goods that they required.

13 Predominantly the goods came from socially-owned companies in our

14 municipality.

15 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

16 MR. PANTELIC: Excuse me, Your Honours.

17 Q. [Interpretation] While we're on this topic, could you please tell

18 me what the connection was or the relationship was with the republican

19 reserve goods. Were there any interventions there in goods?

20 A. Yes. The government had the obligation of taking care of the

21 needs of old-age pensioners. Because it wasn't able to pay them their

22 pensions in cash, it also took goods from the companies from the territory

23 of our municipality or Banja Luka or some other municipalities. It made

24 up these packages, determined the value of those packages, and distributed

25 those packages according to the lists of old-age pensioners instead of

Page 12741

1 their pension.

2 Q. And this kind of compensation during wartime, even though you are

3 not an economist but you can still give us your comments, was this

4 something that was taking place in the entire territory of Republika

5 Srpska and do you know what the situation was in the territory of the

6 other entity, the Muslim-Croat Federation?

7 A. This was a unified policy, and it was initiated at the government

8 level. I have information and knowledge that the same thing was done in

9 the Federation as well, because they had the same problem because the

10 payment services were suspended also in the Federation.

11 Q. Could you please tell me what you personally know about the

12 destruction of crops in the area of war operations. Why did this happen

13 in the territory of the Samac municipality, and what were the -- what

14 happened and what were the consequences of all of this? Who was

15 responsible for this, and what happened? Could you please make a break

16 just because of the interpreters.

17 A. Yes. When the army took up a certain position - and that was the

18 line of defence - in front and behind that line, in certain areas, some

19 crops were already sown and they were in the way of some people. And the

20 reason why they interfered was because they affected the visibility in the

21 terrain where these people were. Then the brigade asked the Crisis Staff

22 to make a decision to destroy the crops in the combat zones. The Crisis

23 Staff adopted such a decision and instructed the Secretariat for the

24 Economy, or the executive council, to device a plan and accompanying

25 regulations in order for such an action to be carried out. The executive

Page 12742

1 council adopted the decision and devised a plan how to destroy these

2 crops, with the obligation that a committee should register on the ground

3 all the destroyed crops, the quantity of the crops, and the area -- the

4 size of the area on which such crops were destroyed, with the objective of

5 securing compensation for the persons who owned the crops. So they wanted

6 to cover this damage. The damage was undoubtedly caused by this.

7 The executive council received the report from the ground about

8 the damage, the type of crops, and the area -- the size of the area where

9 the crops were destroyed. And then on the basis of certain parameters,

10 using the yield of certain crops, whether it was maize or wheat, at the

11 agricultural cooperative to determine to what extent -- how much damage

12 was done to each individual owner and to pay out for this damage to all of

13 those who suffered the damage. The payments for the damage were made in

14 the course of 1993.

15 Q. Were there any differences regarding the ethnicity of the persons

16 who had such damage done to their crops? Was there any discrimination?

17 A. There was no difference, no discrimination. They went in an

18 orderly fashion from plot to plot along the line where the army had its

19 positions.

20 Q. When we analysed the Official Gazette, issue number 1, with some

21 decisions from 1992, there was a decision there about some representatives

22 or there were two articles about the National Assembly of Republika

23 Srpska. Could you please tell me, who were the delegates to the

24 parliament from the territory of Samac municipality in the National

25 Assembly of Republika Srpska, if you know.

Page 12743

1 A. In the course of 1992 no one was a delegate or a people's deputy

2 from the municipality of Samac in the National Assembly of Republika

3 Srpska. Only in 1993 was a delegate appointed or a deputy, and he was

4 chosen from a list of deputies and he was the next person in line for this

5 position because the previous deputy was killed. And this deputy was

6 Mirko Jovanovic.

7 Q. Excuse me. Which deputy was he, the one who was killed or the one

8 who was elected?

9 A. No, no. He was elected Mirko Jankovic [As interpreted] as the

10 delegate in 1993. He wasn't the one who was killed. The one who was

11 killed was a deputy from Derventa. I'm not sure what his name was.

12 Q. The name of Mr. Blagoje Simic and Mr. Dragic also appear there, so

13 this is leading to some confusion. So could you please explain in what

14 capacity, if they did go -- if any representatives did go there in 1992 or

15 1993, in what capacity did they go, because on the one hand we have

16 deputies to the assembly, and then on the other hand we have two

17 representatives, so could you please clarify this if you know.

18 A. The practice of the National Assembly then and today also is as

19 follows: Each session of the National Assembly of Republika Srpska calls

20 for representatives from each of the municipalities, and they are guests

21 or observers. They meet the principal about the public nature of the work

22 of the National Assembly, and these people could only be there as

23 observers of the work of the National Assembly, but they didn't have any

24 right to participate in any voting or any decision-making. This practice

25 is still valid today.

Page 12744

1 Q. And if you know, did Dr. Blagoje Simic attend any of those

2 assembly sessions during 1992 and 1993 in the capacity of observer or

3 representative? Tell us if you remember. And if you don't remember, just

4 say so.

5 A. I can't really say. I don't remember. I don't know.

6 Q. Now, please tell us this: The executive council and the officials

7 on the council, regarding them you said that your workplace was in the

8 municipal building, meaning in the downtown; isn't that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, tell me, please, where was that building located and can you

11 please tell us where was it in relation to the enemy line, to the front

12 line. And also, please tell us in which part of the buildings were your

13 offices. When I say "your," I mean you and other members of the executive

14 council.

15 A. That was a two-storey building, and it is located immediately in

16 front of the Sava River. On the other side of the river is the Republic

17 of Croatia. Members of our army were positioned in front of the building

18 facing the Sava River. We members of the executive council and also

19 employees of the administrative organs were all working on the lower floor

20 because on one occasion I had an unpleasant experience. When I was

21 upstairs, the shell had landed on the municipal building. It had come

22 from Slavonski Samac.

23 Q. Can you tell us where was that.

24 A. That was in early 1993, and this shell landed in the toilet area

25 and there was just one corridor dividing my office from that area. And

Page 12745

1 since that time, nobody occupied offices upstairs. Therefore, all of us

2 were downstairs.

3 Q. You mean the ground floor.

4 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Pantelic.

5 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Pantelic.

7 Mr. Lukic, if my memory serves me correctly with respect to the

8 map of the city, the municipal building was right next door to the TO, the

9 Territorial Defence building; is that correct?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's a street dividing the two.

11 On one side is the TO building, and then on the other side is the

12 municipal assembly building. So coming from the direction of the Sava

13 River, you would first come across the municipal assembly building. Then

14 you would cross the street, and then you would come across the TO

15 building.

16 JUDGE WILLIAMS: So you were familiar coming in and out of the

17 municipal building with goings and comings into the TO building and also

18 the SUP building. Would that be fair to say?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I didn't monitor who came in

20 and out, but I saw that there were policemen there.

21 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

22 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have maybe a map, D27/3 in order to

23 clarify this.

24 JUDGE WILLIAMS: [Microphone not activated]

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Judge Williams, please.

Page 12746

1 JUDGE WILLIAMS: As far as I'm concerned, the witness has put it

2 in my head correctly.

3 MR. PANTELIC: Okay. Thank you.

4 Q. [Interpretation] Now, please tell me this: In the course of 1992,

5 were there any combat operations directed against the municipal building?

6 Was there any firing from the machine-gun coming from the enemy side

7 directed at the municipal building?

8 A. Yes. They mostly fired from the PAM, and I have some bullet

9 casings left. I think it's calibre 12. And they also used infantry

10 weapons, because just some 300 to 350 metres away were the enemy

11 positions.

12 Q. Can you tell me what the PAM stands for?

13 A. It's an anti-aircraft weapon, if I'm not mistaken.

14 Q. Now, the employees in the municipal building and members of the

15 executive building, in view of the fact that there were positions held in

16 front of the Sava River, can you tell me whether the employees and members

17 of the executive council had any duty to participate in the defence and in

18 those military operations.

19 A. We members of the executive council had no such duty, but other

20 employees did, because the work obligation in that area covered that part

21 of the territory.

22 Q. Now, tell me, please, within the municipality, were there any

23 fortifications or elements thereof? Was the municipal building in any way

24 protected?

25 A. Yes. Once the firing at the municipal building became quite

Page 12747

1 intense, they started putting sandbags on windows, on the side facing the

2 Sava. But even on the other side as well, because shells landed in the

3 street and then fragments or shrapnel would be disseminated everywhere.

4 So they started putting sandbags on all openings.

5 Q. Do you know perhaps what was the number of persons who were killed

6 in Samac municipality from the beginning till the end of the war?

7 A. The number of those who were killed in our municipality is 750.

8 Out of those 750, 353 are people from our municipality, our soldiers.

9 Q. Can you tell us whether there were any civilians that were killed

10 among those that you mentioned?

11 A. No. That's a separate figure, that of the civilian victims, and

12 there were about 100 of them.

13 Q. How many people in Samac municipality were wounded during the war,

14 if you know, approximately?

15 A. From the first till the tenth category, the total figure is about

16 1100 members of the army.

17 Q. What about civilians?

18 A. The number of civilians was around 100, the same as the number of

19 civilians that got killed.

20 Q. What was the ethnic composition of civilians that were killed and

21 wounded in Samac municipality?

22 A. I can't give you the exact number, but civilians of all

23 ethnicities got killed: Serbs, Muslims, and Croats alike. However, the

24 majority of civilians that were killed were Serbs.

25 Q. And what caused death and wounding of civilians?

Page 12748

1 A. I told you yesterday that shelling was quite intense. One had to

2 go, let's say, from the municipal building home, and no one knew when

3 shells would be falling. I remember one situation where a neighbour of

4 mine, a policeman, got killed on his way from the police station to his

5 apartment. He was near the department store when a shell landed and got

6 killed. His name was Savo Savic.

7 Q. What measures were taken in order to rebuild the residential

8 facilities in 1992 and in 1993 in Samac?

9 A. In the course of 1992, a lot of housing facilities were damaged,

10 especially in the town itself, but also in villages that were closer to

11 the town, such as Orasje, Domaljevac, or those that were closer to

12 Croatia, to Slavonski Samac. The Crisis Staff passed a decision to

13 establish a construction company, and the Secretariat for Economy

14 established and registered the company, whose main task was to repair as

15 much as was possible as many buildings as possible with the material that

16 we had at our disposal. They had to do that without in fact decreasing

17 the residential area.

18 Q. Now we will turn to a different topic that has to do with

19 activities of the executive council. I will ask you to comment on some

20 documents.

21 MR. PANTELIC: [Previous translation continues] ... we shall

22 discuss now a document with our internal number D002.

23 Q. [Interpretation] Yesterday you already gave us several comments

24 regarding the work obligation. Now I would like to know the following:

25 Which organ of the municipal structure addressed the Secretariat of

Page 12749

1 People's Defence and what was the mechanism involved there? Could you

2 please give us a few comments regarding this request.

3 A. The Crisis Staff passed a decision on the functioning of the

4 economy in wartime and approved the operation of a certain number of

5 socially-owned companies. The Secretariat for Economy within the

6 executive council was tasked with reviving these socially-owned companies.

7 Naturally this was to be done in cooperation with the coordinators in the

8 companies that had been appointed by the Crisis Staff. In order for a

9 company to start working and in order for it to operate, they needed

10 workers within their work obligation. Therefore, a coordinator would make

11 a list of employees that were necessary and ask the Secretariat for

12 Defence and the Secretariat for Economy in order for them to provide the

13 number of employees that was needed in order to start production in a

14 certain company.

15 Q. I would like to ask you this now: Based on this document, what

16 were the business hours of people performing their work obligation? Here

17 I have in mind the company called Tekstilac and the veterinary station in

18 Bosanski Samac.

19 A. A decision was passed on business hours --

20 Q. No. Please tell us regarding this document that you have in front

21 of you right now.

22 A. In the decision on business hours, it was stated that the business

23 hours from 8.00 till 18.00 hours, the coordinator in cooperation with the

24 Secretariat for Economy was supposed to pass a decision on business hours;

25 however, his decision could not specify longer business hours that had

Page 12750

1 been previously determined by the previous decision.

2 Q. Now, please take a look at this document in front of you. Tell me

3 what were the business hours of the veterinary station.

4 A. In this case, the coordinator had proposed and the Secretary for

5 Economy had agreed to specify that the business hours in this organisation

6 would be not longer than eight hours.

7 Q. So that was the norm, wasn't it?

8 A. In a majority of socially-owned companies, people worked for eight

9 hours a day.

10 Q. Another question regarding this document. It stems from paragraph

11 2 of this document. It mentions here permits for movement. Can you tell

12 me, please, who was in charge of it. Was it the police or some other

13 authority? If you know, please.

14 A. All those who had a work obligation had to have a permit to move

15 around. This permit was issued to me, to the president of the executive

16 council, to employees, and to everybody else by the Public Security

17 Station. If it applied to members of the army, then the relevant command

18 would issue permits to them.

19 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, if there is no objection, I would like

20 to tender this document as an exhibit.

21 MR. RE: There's no objection, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the numbers.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, yes. Your Honours, it's D77/1 and D77/1 ter.

24 Thank you.

25 MR. PANTELIC: Well, now we have a document D004/1, 2, and 3. In

Page 12751

1 fact, there are three documents, so I would like to have the guidelines

2 from the Trial Chamber. They are speaking about the same issue, about the

3 work obligation. And all three documents were issued on the 20th of June,

4 1992. So could we have maybe one exhibit possible, one exhibit number,

5 with dividing of A, B, or C, or 1, 2, or 3.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I'll leave that to the registry assistant, I

7 think.

8 And if there are no objections to the Prosecution, then they may

9 not stand up. They should only stand up if they're objecting.

10 MR. RE: I would just say there is no objection to the material

11 Mr. Pantelic has advised us which he is putting to the witness at all.

12 Two of them we don't have English translations [Realtime transcript read

13 in error "we don't have translations"], but I sure Mr. Pantelic can deal

14 with that at the appropriate time.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well.

16 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. We can discuss that time and taking care

17 about that.

18 So Ms. Registrar, what would be your suggestion since we have

19 three basically same documents? Should we have one exhibit number and

20 then /1, 2, 3 or...?

21 THE REGISTRAR: It should then be D78/1, D78A/1, D78B/1, and

22 D78C/1 with the ter for the respective B/C/S.

23 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you. And now I would like to discuss very

24 shortly this exhibit with the witness.

25 MR. RE: Could I just correct something on the transcript, Your

Page 12752

1 Honour.


3 MR. RE: The transcript says that I said we don't have

4 translations. I said we don't have translations of two documents. Mr.

5 Pantelic has provided us with translations of the balance.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

7 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. Lukic, just a few brief comments. You have already explained

9 to us how this system of the work obligation functioned, so we're not

10 going to deal with this any more. However, I should be interested in

11 hearing you on the following: If you know, the persons who are stated

12 under numbers 1 to 4, what ethnicity are they?

13 A. I know all of them, and they're all Serbs.

14 Q. So what kind of system was this that we see here in the text,

15 "8+8+8," and which concerned Serbs in this decision specifically?

16 A. The persons here were members of the military. They participated

17 in the army, but they also owned land, owned their farms. In order to

18 organise production, they were prepared to spend eight hours with the

19 military to have an eight-hour work obligation on the farm and to have the

20 remaining eight hours for rest and recuperation. So we sent this request

21 to the Secretariat for People's Defence, and in cooperation with their

22 brigade, that is, their unit, they complied with this request.

23 Q. Thank you. The other two documents, one concerns the Zivinokop

24 company, and the other the Master company. I think your comment would be

25 the same; however, if you have anything in particular to add in respect of

Page 12753

1 these two documents, please do.

2 A. Well, the situation is more or less the same. Here we have a

3 large farm in Donji Zabar, which is the subject of this particular

4 request. The other document concerns the work obligation in the state of

5 owned company called Master, in which the coordinator is asking the

6 Secretariat for Economy to contact the Secretariat for People's Defence

7 and to give work obligation assignments to these four individuals. As far

8 as I know them, I think that they are mechanics, people who are involved

9 in car maintenance. And Master was a transport company.

10 Q. In case of this last decision, we see that there is no mention of

11 other options such as 8+8+8. I assumed that the working hours are the

12 usual ones.

13 A. Yes, that is correct, the usual business hours.

14 Q. In the penultimate paragraph we see that for the needs of the

15 military a certain amount of work is to be performed. Who had the

16 priority in wartime in respect of certain particular assignments, the

17 civilian part or the military part, if a work was to be done?

18 A. Well, it was the military and the police who always had the

19 priority.

20 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Mr. Usher.

21 Ms. Registrar, now we should discuss document D005.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

23 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. I was advised from my colleagues -- you mean

24 exhibit number for this document, Mr. Re, or for the previous one?

25 MR. RE: For the previous one. I was just waiting for some

Page 12754

1 exhibit numbers so we can record them.

2 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. We have D78/1 A, B, C.

3 MR. RE: For the record can we just find out which document is

4 which, A, B, and C.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Perhaps the registry assistant could repeat

6 them.

7 THE REGISTRAR: I followed the sequence as they were given. There

8 is an annotation of 88/, 89/, 90/ on top of each English translation. I

9 can give the titles.

10 "Request for work assignment," that will be D78A/1 and ter.


12 THE REGISTRAR: It has an "88" figure on the right-hand corner on

13 the English translation.

14 The next -- well, since they have all the same title and the same

15 date --

16 JUDGE MUMBA: I think it's easier to distinguish them -- because

17 each document has got a different -- if you read handwritten on the

18 right-hand corner on the top, one has 89, one has 88, one has 90. If the

19 Prosecution are observing that. Yes. So the registry assistant, yes,

20 followed that sequence.

21 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.

22 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Lukic, what can you tell us in respect of

23 this particular document? First of all, have you already seen this

24 document? What is this document? Please tell us.

25 A. I have seen such documents. We had a number of similar requests.

Page 12755

1 A moment ago I told you about this construction company. And this village

2 here was located in the vicinity of the separation line. And the same as

3 the town was exposed to intense shelling from the positions of the

4 Croatian army. The people here, the owners of the houses there, are

5 asking for help with the reconstruction and the repair work to be

6 performed on their houses in order to prevent further damage.

7 Q. When was this request made?

8 A. On the 24th of June, 1992.

9 Q. The document is signed by the commissioner. What was the role of

10 the commissioner in local communes in particular?

11 A. It is the -- to help you with the title, this used to be the

12 president of the local commune before the war, who in wartime became the

13 commissioner. It is a civilian person who is supposed to take care of the

14 everyday life of the given local commune in wartime.

15 Q. One additional question for the record -- no, it's already been

16 translated, I see. Just help us with the handwritten text at the bottom

17 of the page, page 2. Do you know by any chance who signed this text and

18 what is this note all about?

19 A. As far as I can read, the text is as follows: "A complete

20 request -- or to complete the request." And here we see the employees of

21 the Secretariat for Economy, according to whom the request has been

22 complied with.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have an exhibit number for this document,

25 please.

Page 12756

1 THE REGISTRAR: It will be D79/1 and D79/1 ter. Thank you.

2 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you. So now I have again a document. I will

3 just make a short description. It's D009, and then there are four

4 documents. Basically these are the pay lists. The first document that I

5 will discuss -- also we could have the same approach, because it relates

6 to the same -- to the same company.

7 The first document is the payroll for month of May 1992 with

8 nine -- in total with the nine workers, nine names.

9 The second document is a payroll for month of June 1992, with

10 eight names in total. We are speaking about the company 11th of April.

11 That's the name of the company, on the top left-hand corner.

12 The third document is also for the same company. It's a payroll

13 for July, in total with six persons.

14 And finally, there is one handwritten document, also for company

15 11th of April, for the month of April 1992, in total with 13 persons. So

16 that we can follow these documents.

17 Is it okay with the Prosecution? Yes. Thank you.

18 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Pantelic, just one clarification.

19 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Your Honour.

20 JUDGE WILLIAMS: You just mentioned the last one there, the

21 handwritten document also for the company called the 11th of April. And

22 then you said it's for the month of April 1992. But just looking at the

23 translation, the dates seem to be stamped differently. For example, on

24 page 1 of the English translation, we've got, "List of employees who

25 worked in July," for example. And on the next page, "List of employee who

Page 12757

1 is worked in June." I simply raise that because you said it was for

2 April, and --

3 MR. PANTELIC: Absolutely. Because in one -- yes. I do

4 apologise, Your Honour. Yes, you are right. There are also handwritten

5 documents for June and -- let me check. It's June and July. Yes. But

6 the first document is for the month of April but it's not translated here.

7 It's -- you can see on the translation where 13 persons are listed and the

8 first name is Kosta Mihaljcic and then in brackets you have (expansion

9 unknown) which is Roman number IV on original, on the top right-hand

10 corner, yes.

11 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Lukic, so you have this payroll for the month

12 of May 1992 in front of you.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. The company we're concerned with is the 11th of April.

15 A. Yes. It is a utility company which was state owned.

16 Q. What was it involved in?

17 A. As I said, it was a utility company which was in charge of

18 maintaining the town, in charge of sanitation.

19 Q. Tell us, please, if you know whether on this list we find the

20 people who prior to April 1992 had worked in this company.

21 A. I know some of them, and I think yes, they had worked in this

22 company prior to the 17th of April.

23 Q. Tell us about the procedure regarding salaries. I see the

24 relevant municipal stamp at the bottom of the page. Was the same

25 principle as the one that you explained yesterday applied in this case as

Page 12758

1 well?

2 A. The same principle applied for all the work obligations.

3 Q. Could you please look at -- please look at this handwritten

4 document.

5 MR. PANTELIC: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Usher.

6 It's the handwritten document. Yes.

7 Q. [Interpretation] Could you please placed on the ELMO. I think

8 it's the third or fourth document. This column all the way to the right

9 with all of these dashes or the 4/3 numbers, do you know what that could

10 indicate? If you don't know what it means, the last column on the right,

11 say so.

12 A. I think this is the code number of the chequing account card of

13 their bank.

14 Q. But it's confusing because these "8s" or these numbers are the

15 same for several persons, and that would mean that all of those people

16 have one account or perhaps they were paid through the cashier. So just

17 tell us if you know. But if you don't know, you don't need to dwell on

18 this in any detail.

19 A. It wasn't paid by the cashier because it does have the sign that

20 it was checked by the payment system service. It could only be some kind

21 of code, and this is maybe a sign that the company provided chequing books

22 for its workers. I don't understand what this "3" stands for in all the

23 entries. Maybe that should be a different number. I cannot really

24 confirm --

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic, this is what the counsel told you, that

Page 12759

1 if you don't know, you say you don't know. Because we want information

2 where you are certain, not where you are guessing. So if you don't know

3 the details, what they mean, then you say so.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot confirm it.

5 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Thank you.

6 Ms. Registrar, could we have a number for these documents.

7 THE REGISTRAR: The payroll from May 1992 will be D80A/1 and ter

8 for the respective B/C/S version. The payroll for June 1992 will be

9 D80B/1 and ter. The payroll of July 1992 will be D80C/1 and ter. And the

10 two-pages-long document, beginning with 13 names for payroll, will be

11 D80D/1 ter. Thank you.

12 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Ms. Registrar.

13 Could we have now the next document, which is internal number

14 D0010. And it consists of -- it's also payrolls. It consists of three

15 documents for the month of May 1992, June 1992, and July 1992. It's a

16 Samac fire brigade.

17 Q. [Interpretation] Basically, Mr. Lukic, we have already discussed

18 these documents quite considerably, so we will not really dwell on them

19 for too long. But could you please give me your following -- your comment

20 on the following. Did the fire-fighters or the fire brigade in Samac have

21 some kind of special status, in view of their duties?

22 A. Yes. Nothing changed regarding the fire-fighters.

23 Q. Just like in other towns and systems, I assume, this is a very

24 special, very serious job, particularly in time of war.

25 A. Yes, that's right. And they had a lot of problems.

Page 12760

1 Q. Could you now please look at these three payroll sheets and tell

2 me briefly -- we won't go into any details about that -- what was the

3 ethnic composition of the fire-fighting unit in Samac in the period of

4 May, June, and July 1992?

5 A. I can say here that the names are of people of all three

6 ethnicities. The majority of those people are still fire-fighters in the

7 fire brigade in Samac.

8 Q. Did they come back to Samac after the war or did they spend the

9 entire time in Samac while the war was going on in Bosnia?

10 A. They were in the fire brigade the entire time.

11 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you. Could we -- thank you, Mr. Usher.

12 Could we have an exhibit number, please, Ms. Registrar, for these

13 three payroll lists for the month of May, June, and July 1992, these.

14 THE REGISTRAR: They will be D81A/1 and ter, D81B/1 and ter, and

15 D81C/1 and ter respectively. Thank you.

16 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Now our document with internal number D0011,

17 consisting of three payroll lists for the month of June, with a list of 22

18 persons, two pages for June. And then also -- and this is -- these are

19 the representatives or commissioners in local communes on the territory of

20 municipality of Bosanski Samac.

21 Then the next document is on the top left-hand corner related to

22 local commune Upper Slatina, with five persons.

23 And the last one is a document, number 4701/92, dated 3rd of June,

24 1992, issued by executive board also with 23 subjects or persons.

25 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Lukic, this document speaks for itself. The

Page 12761

1 number of persons on it is 22 for the month of July. You already said

2 something about the role of the commissioner.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The month of June.

4 Q. Could you please tell us, up until what time period were these

5 commissioners active? This is June. Were they active after that month or

6 was this issue resolved in a different way?

7 A. The commissioners were representatives of the local communes, and

8 they were active until the first elections were held in 1996.

9 Q. Relating to the period before April 1992, did the presidents of

10 the local communes or those officials receive salaries from the budget for

11 their work? Could you please tell us how many local communes comprise a

12 municipality and what are the budgetary obligations between the

13 municipality and the local communes.

14 A. Until the 17th of April, 1992 the presidents of the local communes

15 were on the local commune budget, because until that time, they had their

16 own source of financing. Each local commune levied the local self-tax or

17 contribution. Whether this was for the land register matters or

18 something -- a tax regarding property. But in any case, they determined

19 such taxes on the local level and then based on those funds, financial

20 funds were paid out to the presidents of those local communes. Because

21 this was no longer possible, their expenses or salaries were covered by

22 the municipal budget.

23 Q. I have another question while looking at this list. In June 1992,

24 except for the Serbian Municipality of Bosanski Samac, was there another

25 municipality with the same name, "Municipality of Bosanski Samac"?

Page 12762

1 A. The Croats formed their own municipality from a part of the

2 Bosanski Samac municipality. It was called Domaljevac Bosanski Samac.

3 Q. I don't see the Prud local commune on this list. Who controlled

4 Prud in June 1992?

5 A. I think that it was part of the municipality of Odzak, because

6 they were across the River Bosna.

7 Q. Which ethnic group was in control of that territory?

8 A. Croats and Muslims. And at that time the population there was 99

9 per cent Croatian.

10 Q. So the pre-war territory of the municipality of Bosanski Samac,

11 after April 17th, 1992, in that period, was divided into three parts.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In the parts that you mentioned, Domaljevac and Prud, you said

14 that those parts were inhabited by which ethnic group?

15 A. They were inhabited by Croats.

16 Q. Where did they live before April 1992? And I'm thinking of those

17 two parts of the Samac municipality.

18 A. Those were the local communes of the municipality of Bosanski

19 Samac.

20 Q. Did Croat citizens live in those local communes before April 1992?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And of course after April 1992.

23 A. Yes.

24 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you. I would like to have a number for these

25 documents.

Page 12763

1 THE REGISTRAR: They will be D82A/1, D82B/1 and D82C/1 and ter for

2 the B/C/S. Thank you.

3 MR. RE: Could I inquire which document has which number?

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Following the dates that were given by

6 Mr. Pantelic, June 1992 and the way that the documents were introduced,

7 and the first list introduced was the list of 22 names. The second list

8 introduced by Mr. Pantelic was the list of June 1992 with five names, and

9 the third list, with 23 names. Thank you.

10 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Ms. Registrar.

11 I believe we are -- we have another document which is RH34. I do

12 apologise. There are some problems. We shall follow the --

13 Ms. Registrar. I do apologise. There's a problem with the line of

14 documents. No, it's okay. But in future we shall resolve that. Sorry.

15 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Lukic, are you familiar with this document?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Could you please tell me briefly, since the executive council

18 adopted this decision, what was the purpose of this decision?

19 A. As winter was coming, the majority of the population was engaged

20 in the army. And on the other hand, there were sections of the population

21 that were unable to secure their own firewood. The executive council

22 charged the Secretariat for Economy to prepare a decision in order to be

23 prepared for the coming winter. So those sections of the population

24 unable to secure their own firewood and who did not have their own woods

25 or timber were to receive firewood through this decision.

Page 12764

1 Q. Can you tell me, did the families have to pay for this firewood?

2 A. The government passed a decree regarding the firewood in which it

3 was stated that the timber farms could provide certain quantities and then

4 families had to pay for it. In view of the situation that we had in our

5 municipality, the economic affairs, the financial affairs and so on, we

6 decided to distribute firewood to certain categories of the population

7 without any compensation. Therefore, those who received firewood did not

8 in fact have to pay for it.

9 Q. Could you please take a look at Article 6 of this decision. I

10 assume that it sets forth the categories of the population that were

11 eligible to receive firewood; isn't that right?

12 A. Yes. These are criteria that defined who was eligible to receive

13 firewood, and it listed these categories in the order of priority they

14 had.

15 Q. Does this decision in a way give any priority to any ethnic group

16 with respect to receiving firewood?

17 A. No. I know that the main idea was to first provide firewood to

18 families of fallen soldiers and war veterans and handicapped veterans, and

19 that following that everybody else received the same quantities regardless

20 of their ethnic background. In order to compile these categories, the

21 lists of the centre for social work were used.

22 Q. This manner of distributing firewood to residents of Samac, did it

23 only apply in 1992 or perhaps in the following years as well? Can you

24 tell us until when was this manner of distributing firewood applied?

25 A. Throughout the war years. That means 1992, 1993, 1994, and 1995.

Page 12765

1 In winters of those years.

2 Q. And in these following years, after 1992, was it applied

3 differently to different ethnic groups?

4 A. No.

5 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Ms. Registrar, could we have a number,

6 please, for this document.

7 THE REGISTRAR: The decision of 17th September, 1992 will be

8 Exhibit D83/1 and D83/1 ter. Thank you.

9 MR. PANTELIC: I believe -- the next document is RH5. Is it the

10 first, Ms. Registrar, number that you have in your box? RH5. Is it okay?

11 Did we catch the right line? Thank you.

12 Q. [Interpretation] This copy in barely legible, unfortunately, but

13 please tell me what was the basis for the executive council to pass this

14 decision. But prior to that, please tell me who signed this decision, if

15 you know.

16 A. This is my signature.

17 Q. And what was the purpose of this decision?

18 A. Since we are an agricultural area, we conducted preparations and

19 made plans for spring and autumn crop sowing, and this is one kind of a

20 plan for spring sowing in 1993. The objective was to procure fuel for

21 farmers at good prices, and the municipality in fact compensated for the

22 difference between the price at which they were provided fuel and the

23 market price.

24 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Excuse me.

25 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour.

Page 12766

1 JUDGE LINDHOLM: We are now talking about RH5.

2 MR. PANTELIC: RH5, yes, that's correct.

3 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Yes. And the -- Mr. Lukic said that the

4 signature is his, but it's signed by Milan Simic.

5 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Mr. Lukic, could you please explain to His Honour Lindholm this

7 issue.

8 A. I was vice-president of the executive council, which means that in

9 the absence of the president during the session of the executive council,

10 I substituted for him. And right here above you can see an indication

11 that stands for "upon authority." Milan Simic was the president of the

12 executive council, and upon authority I was the one who signed this, based

13 or pursuant to the law on general administrative procedure.

14 Q. This abbreviation, "PO," what you just told us, was this in fact

15 the abbreviation, PO?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. If you know, please tell us: When it comes to the way the state

18 organs function, in view of the large number of documents they have to

19 deal and so on, is it usual that a procedure was established for somebody

20 to sign these documents in the absence of the relevant persons?

21 A. In the secretariats, the secretary was able to authorise somebody

22 to sign documents on his behalf.

23 Q. And just one more question before the break: At that time, in

24 1993, the price of 1 litre of oil, was it a real market price of 1

25 Deutschmark for 1 litre?

Page 12767

1 A. No. I explained to you that this was not that kind of a price.

2 This was a price that was determined without VAT. The municipality

3 covered for the difference for the VAT. That means that the retail price

4 was lower than 1 convertible mark.

5 Q. And this manner of procuring fuel, procuring oil, did it apply to

6 farmers of all ethnicities or were there any priorities there?

7 A. It applied to all farmers.

8 Q. Regardless of their ethnicity.

9 A. There was no discrimination whatsoever. That means regardless of

10 their ethnicity, everybody was able to procure oil at the price of 1 mark

11 for a litre.

12 MR. PANTELIC: [Previous translation continues]

13 THE REGISTRAR: It will be D84/1 and D84/1 ter. Thank you.

14 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.

15 Your Honour, I believe it's time for our break now.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We will continue our proceedings at 16.15

17 hours.

18 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.

19 --- Recess taken at 3.47 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.

21 MR. PANTELIC: May I proceed, Your Honour?


23 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you. Now I would like to discuss document --

24 the internal number is RH7, please.

25 Q. [Interpretation] The copy is very poor, and I apologise for that.

Page 12768

1 But can you discern to whom was this memo sent?

2 A. From what I can see here, the Secretariat for Economy of our

3 municipality informs the Ministry for Agricultural, waterworks, and

4 forestry, that certain areas had been prepared for autumn sowing of crops,

5 various crops, and in order to harvest these crops, 600 tonnes of fuel

6 would be needed, which means that the Ministry for Agricultural had to

7 give a consent to import or otherwise provide this amount of fuel for our

8 municipality for the autumn harvesting.

9 MR. RE: Your Honours.


11 MR. RE: Before we go on, could I ask for the clarity of the

12 record so that we know exactly what has been tendered, that perhaps my

13 learned friend can read onto the record what document he's referring to or

14 maybe the assistant registrar so that it matches up with the exhibit

15 number. Because at the moment it says "RH7," which of course won't appear

16 in any --

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. So what you want is the title of the

18 document.

19 MR. RE: Yes, please.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The party introducing it will do that.

21 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. I do apologise.

22 So the document is actually -- on the top left-hand corner,

23 number -- internal number is 3/08, 1992. And it's dated the 12th of

24 October, 1992. The title is some kind of letter with regard to the fuel

25 for autumn harvest. Is that sufficient for ...?

Page 12769

1 Q. [Interpretation] Let me ask you this, Mr. Lukic: Was it typical

2 for something like this to go on between the Ministry of Agriculture and

3 the relevant municipal organ, in terms of procuring fuel? I would like to

4 know whether this was successful, successfully accomplished in reality, or

5 was it simply limited to correspondence on this issue?

6 A. The Secretariat for Economy had to send to the Ministry of

7 Agricultural, Waterworks, and Forestry, a report on plans for sowing and

8 harvesting. In these reports, in addition to information on areas

9 planted, they also had to propose certain measures that applied to those

10 areas, whether it had to do with fuel, seeds, or pesticides, and so on.

11 They had to report on this. And sometimes the government replied to these

12 memos and sometimes it didn't.

13 Q. Here is my next question: During those war years, was the

14 agricultural activity proceeding regularly in terms of spring and autumn

15 activity in the Samac municipality?

16 A. Yes. Throughout all of those years. Some years more areas were

17 planted; some years fewer areas were planted, depending on the war

18 operations.

19 Q. Was the principle of work obligation also applied to these

20 activities in view of extensive agricultural areas and the labour that was

21 needed there?

22 A. Yes. We secured in this manner a large quantity of wheat, which

23 was later on ground into flour. As for the corn, it was used for cattle

24 feed.

25 Q. Were some of these works carried out through the work obligation?

Page 12770

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did this work obligation apply to all residents, regardless of

3 their ethnicity, or were there some different approaches made there?

4 A. It applied to all residents.

5 Q. Would you please finish your answer.

6 A. It applied to all citizens of our municipality regardless of their

7 ethnic background.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MR. PANTELIC: Could I have a number for this document, please.

10 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D85/1 and D85/1 ter. Thank

11 you.

12 MR. PANTELIC: My next document is RH8, a document with internal

13 number 712/92, dated 11th of July, 1992. This is a authorisation signed

14 by the Secretary for Economy, Municipal Secretary for Economy.

15 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Pantelic, maybe we should say authorisation

16 for the work of the mill.

17 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, for the work of the mill. Yes, thank you,

18 Your Honour.

19 Q. [Interpretation] Could we have a very brief comment on this

20 decision. What were the reasons for its adoption and so on?

21 A. This consent, this approval relates to the decision on the work of

22 the agriculture in wartime. This approval was not given initially. It

23 was given only subsequently. However, an obligation was placed on the

24 owner to make this mill operational, so that this part of the territory of

25 the municipality could function appropriately, could provide adequate

Page 12771

1 services of milling, of grinding for cattle food.

2 Q. Have a look at the introductory part of this approval. I'm

3 interested in this portion of the text where it says, "The involvement or

4 the engagement of the citizens in wartime," in relation to this type of

5 work.

6 A. It was necessary for someone to transport the corn to the mill.

7 It is a bulk cargo, and the able-bodied men, most of them were already

8 otherwise engaged, so other measures had to be taken. Other arrangements

9 had to be found so that this type of services can be appropriately given.

10 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you. Could we have a number, please.

11 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D86/1 and D86/1 ter. Thank

12 you.

13 MR. PANTELIC: The next document is RH11, internal number of the

14 document is on the top left-hand corner, 2973/92, dated 3rd of October,

15 1992. It's a decision on the organised collection of foreign currency for

16 agricultural activities, issued -- this document was issued by the

17 executive board -- municipal executive board.

18 Q. [Interpretation] Briefly, Mr. Lukic, if you can tell us what the

19 purpose of this decision was.

20 A. This decision is closely related to the decisions we commented a

21 moment ago, concerning the procurement of fuel at the pretext price.

22 These agricultural collectives were in charge of sowing and harvesting

23 work, and they were under the obligation of obtaining a specified amount

24 of fuel at the price of 1 convertible mark with the proviso that the

25 agricultural workers had to pay that amount of money depending on the area

Page 12772

1 that they were supposed to cultivate, depending on the extent of the land

2 involved.

3 Q. This procedure, did it function in practice? I am referring to

4 the activities of the agricultural collectives. And what was further

5 undertaken to complete this job?

6 A. This type of work, concerning agricultural work, functioned

7 adequately throughout that period of time, which means that the

8 agricultural collectives organised this type of production in addition to

9 all other activities related to the agricultural work. And on the basis

10 of the information provided by those collectives, the relevant data as to

11 the necessary quantity of the fuel were obtained, including also the

12 resources that were necessary to buy this amount of fuel for the

13 agricultural work.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MR. PANTELIC: [Previous translation continues]

16 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D87/1 and D87/1 ter. Thank

17 you.

18 MR. PANTELIC: The next document is internal number RH12. This is

19 a document issued by executive -- municipal executive board, internal

20 number 2961/92, dated 3rd of October, 1992. It's an information.

21 Q. [Interpretation] This document, is it also related to the

22 procedure you just explained to us? Tell us, please, if you recognise

23 this type of document. Did you ever come into contact with this type of

24 document in the course of your work?

25 A. Yes.

Page 12773

1 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have a number. Yes, thank you.

2 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D88/1 and D88/1 ter. Thank

3 you.

4 MR. PANTELIC: And now it's RH14. It's a decision rendered by the

5 executive -- municipal executive board. The internal number is 337/92,

6 dated 16th of June, 1992.

7 Q. [Interpretation] You have already told us about the way the

8 salaries were paid. In Article 1, we see that it concerns the people who

9 had the right to be issued specified salaries in various work

10 organisations. Is that the essence of Article 1?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Have a look at the Article 5, please, of this decision. What does

13 this article regulate? What kind of procedural arrangements, as far as

14 salaries are concerned are specified here?

15 A. As far as I can see, there are two categories of the

16 beneficiaries.

17 Q. Can you briefly comment on this, please.

18 A. In view of the fact that a number of socially-owned companies

19 organised production and were making profit with ready-made products, they

20 were able to pay their employees according to the work obligation that

21 they had in those companies. However, there was a number of other

22 companies, such as the utility company, the fire brigade, and a few

23 others, that were not able to charge for their services. Therefore, they

24 were on the budget list of the municipal assembly.

25 Q. Article 9 of this decision, please, governed, I assume, the

Page 12774

1 relevant time frame work. It specifies the period of time that this

2 principle was applied.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. I mean, the decision was adopted on the 16th of June. What was

5 the reason for the adoption of this decision, if you can tell us that,

6 please?

7 A. The salaries were not paid right away. Therefore, they had to be

8 paid retroactively. That is the reason for this retroactive mode of

9 payment as specified in this decision. It is all about the rights of the

10 beneficiaries of this decision.

11 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you. Could we please have a number for this

12 document.

13 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D89/1 and D89/1 ter. Thank

14 you.

15 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Let us move to another subject. We will go back to these matters

17 once again, but let me now focus on something else.

18 MR. PANTELIC: [Previous translation continues] ... issued by

19 executive board or committee, internal number 2750/93, 13th of September,

20 1993, conclusion.

21 Q. [Interpretation] Are you familiar with this document?

22 A. Yes, I am. I signed it.

23 Q. Would you be so kind and tell us the basis for this decision.

24 A. This decision was reached upon the following bases: It was the

25 obligation of the utility and environment company, had to do with the

Page 12775

1 following -- I mean, this person here forcefully moved into someone else's

2 property. Prior to that he did not have appropriate decision, that is, an

3 approval for the temporary use of premises, and no mention was also made

4 on the adequate commission having worked on this. And I was informed that

5 this individual had illegally moved into abandoned property, and I issued

6 an order for the utility and environment company to evict this illegal

7 tenant from this property.

8 Q. What ethnicity is this person?

9 A. Ranko Mitrovic, a Serb.

10 Q. Tell us, please, if --

11 MR. PANTELIC: Excuse me.

12 Q. [Interpretation] Were there any other similar cases involving

13 persons who had illegally - and I'm talking to the period of time 1992 and

14 1993 - who had illegally moved into somebody else's property outside the

15 criteria specified for the use of abandoned property?

16 A. Yes. I remember such cases. They involved also members of the

17 military, other people who wanted to swap their apartments, who moved from

18 smaller apartments to larger apartments. All kinds of persons were

19 involved in this.

20 Q. Tell us, please, if there were any cases of complaints addressed

21 to municipal authorities by non-Serbs and were any protective measures

22 undertaken with the view of protecting their rights.

23 A. Yes. Usually they addressed themselves to the utility and --

24 housing, utility, and environmental company, and then that secretariat

25 would inform the police station thereon so that the police could take

Page 12776

1 appropriate steps in order to evict such individuals, that is, to provide

2 adequate assistance in the case -- in cases when the individuals in

3 question were resisting -- did not want to leave on their own this

4 property.

5 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Pantelic. I think for the sake of

6 clarity -- it might be a question of translation. The exhibit or the

7 document in front of us talks about this conclusion being addressed to the

8 municipal Secretariat for Housing, Public Utilities, Special Planning, and

9 Urban Development. But what we're getting in the translation on two

10 occasions, at page 37, line 25 and then also on page 38, line 17 and 18,

11 is something called the utility and housing and environmental company

12 being asked to evict people. Now, that seems a little bit strange. Are

13 we talking about the same thing and it's just a question in the

14 translation that we're talking about a company, as opposed to this

15 municipal secretariat, which was part of the government in Bosanski Samac?

16 MR. PANTELIC: I do believe, Your Honour, it's a question of maybe

17 translation. But maybe Mr. Lukic can clarify that.

18 A. It is the Municipal Secretariat for Housing and Communal Affairs

19 and Spatial Planning.

20 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. He's clarified that.

21 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you. And just one other question with

22 respect to the same document: This Mr. Mitrovic, who is going to be

23 evicted, the property that he was in, from reading this it doesn't appear

24 to be a private residence, because it was going to be used to allow the

25 elementary school to resume class instruction. Could you just say very

Page 12777

1 briefly in just a few words what was this building he was in that he was

2 going to be evicted from. It's called the Dva Lovca building.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a private house. Dva Lovca is

4 a cafe on the ground floor. The cafe is on the ground floor and the first

5 floor is a housing unit and we're talking about a private house.

6 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Okay. Thank you. I suppose my question really

7 related to this eviction. It seems to have been to allow the elementary

8 school to resume its classes without interruption. That's why I was

9 questioning what was the nature of this property. But you say it's a

10 private -- a private house.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a private house. And since the

12 school was relocated, the school operated in this house.

13 MR. PANTELIC: In fact, the name of this cafe is "Two Hunters,"

14 just for the record.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Ms. Registrar, could we have an exhibit

17 number please for this document.

18 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D90/1 and D90/1 ter. Thank

19 you.

20 MR. PANTELIC: Now it's the document RH17. It's a pay list for

21 the month of May for the Municipal Assembly of Bosanski Samac. May 1992.

22 Q. [Interpretation] Are you familiar with this document, Mr. Lukic?

23 A. Yes. These are the employees in the municipal bodies, in the

24 municipality for the month of May.

25 Q. 1992?

Page 12778

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So in the period of the month of May, this was actually the

3 municipal government, wasn't it?

4 A. No. These were the members of the executive council and the

5 people who were employed there.

6 Q. And then depending on the growth of the secretariat, this number

7 of employees grew.

8 A. Yes, depending on the requirements and the larger number of

9 employees in the executive council, this number grew.

10 Q. Maybe this is not important, but I'm interested. Why is the

11 number in the second column on the right crossed out and then there is

12 another number that is not crossed out that is less than the previous

13 amount? I'm just asking you out of curiosity. Maybe it's not that

14 important.

15 A. This first number that is crossed out is -- actually, there's a

16 mistake here. It says, "The president of the executive council." But

17 actually, there was no president. But had there been a president, he

18 would have received this amount of 51.000. And that's why there is a

19 smaller number here, because it wasn't the post -- he wasn't carrying out

20 the post of the president of the executive council, so the cashier made a

21 mistake, thinking that there was such a function at the time, president of

22 the executive council, but there wasn't in fact, so this is why that

23 number was crossed out.

24 Q. In relation to the range of salaries in accordance with the

25 regulations, did the salaries actually keep to this range?

Page 12779

1 A. Yes, they were within the range, but they were lower.

2 MR. PANTELIC: Ms. Registrar, could we have a number, please.

3 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D91/1 and D91/1 ter. Thank

4 you.

5 MR. PANTELIC: The next document is our internal number is RH19.

6 And this is a decision issued by the executive board or committee.

7 Without internal number, only /92, dated 10th of September, 1992,

8 consisting of three pages. Decision on the organised execution of autumn

9 agriculture work and the tariffs of services in the Bosanski Samac

10 municipality.

11 MR. RE: I don't think we have a translation for this one. Is

12 that correct?

13 JUDGE MUMBA: We do.

14 MR. PANTELIC: I have -- I have one copy for you.

15 Yes, thank you.

16 It was not a bad intention for our friends.

17 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Lukic, could you please tell me the

18 following: I see here in the preamble some markings or some indications

19 for these regulations. Could you please tell us what was the basis for

20 these regulations. What does this regulation contain, this regulation of

21 the government from the 31st of July, 1992. Could you please tell us this

22 very briefly.

23 A. The government, as you said, on the 31st of July, 1991 made this

24 decision on the engaging of citizens to collect the harvest and instructed

25 the municipalities to prepare municipal decisions in line with this

Page 12780

1 decision. The secretariat prepared this decision and set here the price

2 list for the works carried out, i.e., for compensation to be paid to

3 persons who participated in this work, in the implementation of the spring

4 and autumn planting.

5 Q. That is clear to me. It's wartime. Please tell me --

6 A. These rates are symbolic.

7 Q. Could you please tell me, Mr. Lukic, in Article 2 of this

8 decision, item 2, land from abandoned territories is mentioned. Can you

9 please explain to me what these abandoned territories are and what was the

10 purpose of carrying out these autumn agricultural works there, if you

11 know.

12 A. The agricultural ministry made a decision about the manner in

13 which abandoned land would be used in terms of agricultural work in the

14 municipalities. That means that people who left the territory, leaving

15 their property behind, their land, so that this land would not be

16 overgrown with weeds or go fallow, this land was given for temporary use

17 for cultivation and for spring and autumn planting.

18 Q. And now I'm interested in Article 3. The labour required to carry

19 out these activities is talked about here. Before the war, in the

20 municipality of Samac were there any broader organised activities in any

21 extraordinary circumstances or during spring or summer planting? And did

22 this happen in the course of 1992?

23 A. Only during floods. That's when there were some activities during

24 a state of emergency. This is when these headquarters were activated and

25 when they applied this manner of organisation. Everything else was done

Page 12781

1 individually, but the government decree regulates - and that's this decree

2 here - and it states in the preamble that in this way as much land as

3 possible had to be processed.

4 Q. And who was included in this labour force when we look at Article

5 3?

6 A. All those who were fit or able to take part in the work

7 obligation.

8 Q. Well, just look at Article 3, please.

9 A. Agricultural machinery was requisitioned --

10 Q. I'm thinking of the labour force.

11 A. Unemployed women, men, children and men, the labour force from the

12 work detachments and the labour detachments.

13 Q. Very well. So this category, did that apply to all of the

14 population regardless of their ethnicity or were there any differences in

15 the way these works were organised?

16 A. This applied to the entire population, and everybody was included

17 in this activity. This related to all of the population regardless of

18 their ethnicity. And when they talk about children, what is meant are

19 children over 15.

20 Q. I assume that the reason for this was that because so many people

21 were engaged in military duties, so there was no other way to organise

22 these activities.

23 A. Well, to explain this further, there wasn't enough of the

24 population that was fit to work, so depending on the activities that had

25 to be carried out, this group of the population was engaged to actually

Page 12782

1 carry out these tasks.

2 Q. Article 4 provides for some type of compensation. Was this part

3 applied, and what can you tell us about that? Because this work should

4 have been evaluated in some way.

5 A. Yes. This is the list of rates, according to which those who

6 participated in these autumn works were compensated.

7 Q. What was subsequently done? Since there were some socially-owned

8 enterprises and socially-owned land as well, what was subsequently done

9 with those products after the harvest was carried out? How were they

10 distributed, these goods? How was this arranged?

11 A. When we're talking about socially-owned enterprises, the wheat and

12 the maize was taken to the silo in the agricultural cooperative. When we

13 were talking about individuals, this was either given to the agricultural

14 cooperative or kept by the owner in his own storage facilities.

15 MR. PANTELIC: Ms. Registrar, could we have a number, please.

16 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D92/1 and D92/1 ter. Thank

17 you.

18 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have now document RH20. This is a

19 decision -- basically the same issues. It was issued by executive board

20 on 23rd of June, 1992, document consisting of three pages.

21 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Lukic, basically this is the same kind of

22 procedure except that this decision was reached in June 1992. I'm

23 interested in Article 2 here and in this term "mobilised combine

24 harvesters." How did this procedure function and who organised this

25 requisition or mobilisation of combine harvesters? Who organised it and

Page 12783

1 what was the purpose of that?

2 A. When the Crisis Staff reached its decision to carry out the

3 harvest works, the executive committee or the Secretariat for the Economy

4 devised the way in which the harvest was going to be carried out. Since

5 wheat had to be cut from the ground, we had to engage the combine

6 harvesters from individual owners, even though socially-owned enterprises

7 had a number of combine harvesters, the agricultural cooperative had that,

8 but they didn't have enough. So the local communes and the municipality

9 were tasked with making a list of all the combine harvesters in the local

10 communes and via the Secretariat for National Defence -- or People's

11 Defence to activate these agricultural machines so that the wheat could be

12 cut from the fields as soon as possible.

13 Q. Was this manner of temporary exception or sparing of people from

14 military service in order to participate in these works something that was

15 typically done during wartime?

16 A. Yes. The Secretariat for Defence conducted mobilisation of such

17 vehicles or machinery.

18 Q. Now, please take a look at Article 11 on page 3. Item 1 has a

19 part that was typed in and handwritten. Now, please, can you tell us what

20 are Napredak and Pik, and what did this first paragraph mean in relation

21 to the flour that had been collected.

22 A. These two socially-owned enterprises had their own land, which

23 they used to sow certain crops. And then this decision specified that

24 these crops would be dried in their own silos and would later on be used

25 or be distributed to the population or to the military as specified in

Page 12784

1 this article.

2 Q. Now, tell me, please, what happened with the privately-owned

3 wheat? Did private farmers also have an obligation to turn over their

4 grain for these purposes?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MR. PANTELIC: Ms. Registrar, could we have a number, please, for

8 this exhibit.

9 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D93/1 and D93/1 ter. Thank

10 you.

11 MR. PANTELIC: The next document is RH22. It's a conclusion

12 issued by the executive board on 12th of February, 1993. "Conclusion to

13 nominate candidates for the organs of the chamber of the economy of

14 Republika Srpska."

15 Q. [Interpretation] Very briefly, please tell me, what was the basis

16 for this decision which was passed in 1993?

17 A. This signifies that the Chamber of Commerce had started operating

18 and that our municipality had to provide -- or had to send certain people

19 to the Chamber of Commerce and its organs. It says here that Stanko

20 Djurdjevic and another person are being nominated as representatives to

21 the assembly of the Chamber of Commerce.

22 Q. All right. Well, let us now take a look at item 3 of this

23 decision and please tell me whether this is your name mentioned here.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What were you nominated for then?

Page 12785

1 A. I was vice-president of the executive council; however, the

2 president of the executive council did not attend this particular session

3 and therefore I signed the decision on his behalf.

4 Q. Mr. Lukic, no, I'm interested in item 3 on page 2 of this

5 document. And the copy is quite poor, so please take a look at this and

6 tell me what body and -- what body is mentioned here and whether this is

7 your name mentioned here as a candidate for this body.

8 A. Yes. The Chamber of Commerce had an honourable court which

9 numbered five people, and I was among them.

10 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have a number, please, an exhibit number

11 for this document, Ms. Registrar. Thank you.

12 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D94/1 and D94/1 ter. Thank

13 you.

14 MR. PANTELIC: The next document that I would like to discuss is

15 RH23. This is a decision issued by the executive board dated -- decision

16 to appoint a commission to draft a decision on provisional funding of

17 general, public and joint requirements, dated 6th of January, 1993.

18 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Lukic, please tell me about this commission

19 and what is this temporary funding all about. What was the purpose of

20 this decision?

21 A. This commission was tasked with preparing a draft budget for 1993,

22 especially emphasising the funding of general universal needs. They had

23 to specify what was to be funded from the budget of the municipal assembly

24 for that year.

25 Q. Did the municipal assembly already start functioning as an

Page 12786

1 institution at that time?

2 A. Yes, it had already started functioning.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have a number, please, Ms. Registrar.

5 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D95/1 and D95/1 ter. Thank

6 you.

7 MR. PANTELIC: The next document is RH25. It's an order issued by

8 the order on the method of changing the prices of certain products and

9 services in Samac municipality, rendered by the executive committee or

10 board on 28th of January, 1993.

11 Q. [Interpretation] This is another decision passed in 1993. Please

12 tell us briefly if you know, what was the reason for this? In Article 1

13 there is an Official Gazette of Republika Srpska mentioned, so please tell

14 us what is this about.

15 A. The government of Republika Srpska in order to protect the living

16 standard of the population had established the restrictions on prices for

17 basic goods and specified in Article 2 that the prices can be changed only

18 upon the approval of the executive council, providing that there was an

19 additional written explanation given, which means that such goods as

20 bread, water, electric power, flour, and so on, these basic goods are what

21 this decision applied to.

22 Q. Did the executive council in Samac monitor prices of these vital

23 goods, basic consumer goods, in Samac during wartime?

24 A. Yes, we had to do that.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 12787

1 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have a number, please.

2 THE REGISTRAR: It will be D96/1 and D96/1 ter. Thank you.

3 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you. And this document is RH26. It's a

4 decision on the working hours of the executive committee and

5 administration organs, issued on 18th of August, 1992.

6 Q. [Interpretation] Let us not dwell on this too long. This is a

7 decision that was passed after the previous one, and I can see that

8 business hours are reduced here.

9 A. Yes, they are.

10 Q. The working conditions are improving. There is even a mention of

11 a breakfast break. So please tell me, what did all this signify, this

12 reduction in business hours?

13 A. This meant that the situation became more normal, that organs

14 started functioning in a normal way, and that the executive council found

15 it appropriate to introduce regular eight-hour working days, and this was

16 accomplished in stages.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have a number, please.

19 THE REGISTRAR: It will be D97/1 and D97/1 ter. Thank you.

20 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. The next document is RH28. This is a

21 decision issued by the executive board on the 13th of January, 1993 on

22 introducing measures to remove emergency conditions in the following

23 companies, Samac, Bosanka, Velepromet.

24 Q. [Interpretation] The copy is very bad, Mr. Lukic, and I regret

25 this. However, I don't have a better copy. But please tell me this:

Page 12788

1 What are emergency conditions in enterprises? What does this apply to?

2 But first, tell me this: Samac, Bosanka, Velepromet, and so on are these

3 private companies or are they differently owned?

4 A. Yes. I think that these are socially-owned companies. These are

5 municipal enterprises.

6 Q. Now, please tell me, what were these extraordinary circumstances

7 mentioned here? It is said here that in the past there were extraordinary

8 circumstances, and now in January 1993 this situation no longer applied.

9 A. The state of war existed in the past. The war was on, and the

10 situation was a true emergency. And later on as the time passed, things

11 became more normal, and then we switched from a centralised system to a

12 decentralised one, both in enterprises and in institutions.

13 Q. Since three of these enterprises started operating as one, as is

14 mentioned here in paragraph 1, they started operating as Samcanka, I would

15 now like to turn to Article 5 of this decision, where the competencies of

16 the executive council are discussed. So please tell me what competencies

17 the executive council had when it came to appointment of managers and

18 executives in these socially-owned enterprises. Very briefly, please.

19 A. Up until that time the appointment of coordinators was conducted

20 by the Crisis Staff. Afterwards, or rather, in 1993 already, this role

21 was taken over by the executive council. And this was done just on the

22 basis of rational functioning. Three companies, three enterprises that

23 existed before the war were now joined into one in order not to have three

24 administrations and so on. All of these enterprises were socially owned,

25 and they provided goods for the population.

Page 12789

1 Q. And this new company, does it still exist under the same name

2 today, and is it still owned by the state, by the municipality, or has the

3 ownership of it been changed?

4 A. Up until recently, it existed under the same name, Samcanka.

5 However, two or three months ago the state capital of that enterprise was

6 sold and sold to private owners.

7 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have a number, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: It will be D98/1 and D98/1 ter. Thank you.

9 MR. PANTELIC: The next document is RH29. It's a conclusion on

10 activating all production and other economic capacities in the area of the

11 municipality, issued on the 28th of January, 1993 by the executive board.

12 Q. [Interpretation] Very briefly, Mr. Lukic, what was the objective

13 of this decision?

14 A. We in the executive council analysed the situation both on the

15 ground and in the vicinity, and based on that we passed a conclusion which

16 instructed Secretary for Economy to cooperate with directors of

17 enterprises and ensure that enterprises produced the maximum amount of

18 products, to ensure that they functioned at the maximum levels.

19 Q. What can you tell us about these companies in Samac? Do you know

20 whether managers and executives in those companies in 1992 and 1993

21 belonged to all three ethnic groups or was the situation different? I am

22 now referring to publicly-owned companies.

23 A. I touched upon this issue yesterday, but I can repeat this again.

24 The director of Uniglas was Asim Zaimbegovic.

25 Q. And what is his ethnicity?

Page 12790

1 A. He is a Muslim.

2 Q. What about other companies?

3 A. In Mebos the director was a Croat. The director of the medical

4 centre was a Muslim.

5 Q. Thank you. All right.

6 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Could we have a number, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: It will be D99/1 and D99/1 ter. Thank you.

8 MR. PANTELIC: The next document is RH30. This is a decision

9 amending the decision of the organising execution of the autumn

10 agriculture work, and the tariffs of services in Samac municipality, dated

11 6th of November, 1992, issued by the executive board.

12 Q. [Interpretation] This decision also concerns the subject that you

13 have addressed. It was adopted in November. Tell us if you will, Article

14 1 makes mention of a number of categories of persons. What does this

15 refer to, please, if you can explain?

16 A. Article 1 amended the decision which we commented a moment ago.

17 It concerns autumn agricultural work, namely, the work that had to be done

18 in relation to the families of fallen soldiers and war veterans, including

19 invalids, those who were undergoing medical treatment, for instance. In

20 order to secure this type of work free of charge -- I am referring to the

21 autumn agricultural work which was to be performed on the land of these

22 families free of charge -- the municipality according to this decision

23 would participate in providing the necessary resources, such as fuel,

24 lubricants, and so on and so forth, for the purposes of conducting this

25 type of work.

Page 12791

1 Q. Did this decision concern only one ethnic community, or did it

2 apply equally to all citizens irrespective of their ethnic background?

3 A. It applied equally to all citizens.

4 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have a number, please.

5 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D100/1 and D100/1 ter. Thank

6 you.

7 MR. PANTELIC: The next document I would like to discuss is RH33,

8 consisting of seven pages, and the English translation should be also, I

9 believe, seven pages. This is a document, it's a decision on the

10 determination of economic entities, type and volume of activity. The

11 entities will engage at wartimes in organisation of activity of such

12 entities. Dated May 27, 1992, issued by the executive board.

13 Q. [Interpretation] Although at the time you did not hold this

14 office, if I'm not mistaken - this is dated May 27th - can you tell us,

15 please, what you know about this decision. What particular service was in

16 charge of drafting this decision and what was its purpose?

17 A. It was the Crisis Staff that reached the decision on the work of

18 the economy in wartime. And on the basis of their decision, it was

19 necessary to make appropriate arrangements as to which particular economic

20 entities were concerned, which particular departments, which particular

21 areas, and so on and so forth; that is, who exactly was supposed to be

22 involved in this type of work. We have a non-exhaustive list of such

23 entities from the area of agriculture, construction, economy,

24 craftsmanship, and so on and so forth. The decision specifies which

25 entities are involved, that is, who exactly can be engaged in this type of

Page 12792

1 work.

2 Q. Therefore, the purpose was to have -- to identify priorities in

3 the field of agriculture and economy.

4 A. Yes. A certain number of companies or economic entities has to be

5 involved, and it was necessary to organise this type of work as soon as

6 possible, and it was the Secretariat for Economy that was engaged in this

7 type of decision-making in view of the relevant area.

8 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have a number, please.

9 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D101/1 and D101/1 ter. Thank

10 you.

11 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you. The next document that I'd like to

12 discuss with Mr. Lukic is R19. It's -- actually, the act issued by the

13 government of Serbian Republic of BH. It's an extract from the Official

14 Gazette of Serbian People in Bosnia-Herzegovina, published in number 12,

15 and dated 31st July 1992. "Instructions on implementing the decree on the

16 compulsory handover of spoils of war and spoils acquired by other means to

17 the republican commodity reserves."

18 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Lukic, tell us please whether you were

19 familiar with this instruction at the time in 1992.

20 A. Yes. It was adopted in July 1992.

21 Q. My first question was whether it was binding for the municipal

22 bodies, municipal organs of Samac, as well as other municipalities in

23 Republika Srpska. What structure did this instruction have in mind?

24 A. The instruction does not exempt anyone. It applied to all

25 municipal secretariats for economy. They were bound to act pursuant to

Page 12793

1 this instruction.

2 Q. Tell us, please, the way you understand this instruction in view

3 of what you were involved in at the time. And in practice, how did this

4 function? How was this procedure that was envisaged at the level of

5 Republika Srpska applied in your municipality?

6 A. I briefly touched upon this issue yesterday. I said that the

7 Crisis Staff had issued an order concerning the storage of spoils of war

8 in the agricultural collective of Obudovac and the state-owned company

9 Budva. It concerned the goods which had been requisitioned from the

10 individuals by police organs. It applied to all non-certified goods which

11 were then stored in one of these two facilities, in one of these two

12 warehouses. Meanwhile, appropriate proceedings with the view of

13 establishing the owners of this property were being followed.

14 Q. Tell me, as a lawyer, the spoils of war, is this a legal category

15 and when is this concept used and applied?

16 A. Yes. It is a normal category in times of war, and this particular

17 concept exists legally.

18 Q. In Article 1 of this instruction, we have a government decision

19 that is mentioned that was published a number -- in the issue of the

20 Official Gazette number 8/92. What is this about?

21 A. A decree on the compulsory handover of spoils of war acquired by

22 other means to the commodity reserves had been passed, and this

23 instruction concerns practical arrangements, that is, how this decree

24 should be implemented in practice and which particular organs were to be

25 involved.

Page 12794

1 Q. Article 3 and 4 of -- Articles 3 and 4 of this instruction, how

2 did this function in the territory of the Samac municipality? Just a

3 brief explanation, please.

4 A. When the relevant authority, be it a civilian court or a military

5 court, passes a decision and hands over the relevant goods, the relevant

6 commodities to the municipality, the competent court registers this type

7 of property, this type of commodities, and then a board -- a commission is

8 established, which then hands over these goods to the republican commodity

9 reserves. Members of this commission come from the Secretariat for

10 Agriculture, from the Ministry of the Police and the Defence, and also the

11 Ministry for Agriculture.

12 Q. Very well. Thank you. As an employee of municipal organs, do you

13 know if your colleagues, your co-workers, respected the provisions of this

14 instruction? I am referring to the members of the relevant secretariat as

15 well.

16 A. I remember that the Secretariat for Economy established at one

17 point in time a commission which worked pursuant to the instruction for

18 the implementation of the said decree.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you. Could we have a number, please.

21 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D102/1 and D102/1 ter. Thank

22 you.

23 MR. PANTELIC: The next document that I would like to discuss is

24 R20. In fact, consisting of four documents. These are the pay lists of a

25 pharmacy -- of municipal pharmacy for month of May 1992. That's the first

Page 12795

1 document.

2 The second is the pay list for the month of June 1992, also for

3 the pharmacy of Bosanski Samac.

4 The third is the pay list for July 1992, also for the pharmacy.

5 And then there is a handwritten document for -- which is a list of

6 employees present in the pharmacy.

7 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Excuse me, Mr. Pantelic.

8 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE LINDHOLM: You have given us a document RH27. Are you going

10 to tender that document, or have you rejected it?

11 MR. PANTELIC: RH27 I will introduce, Your Honour. But now I'm --

12 maybe that's our mistake in your cover. We are now on --


14 MR. PANTELIC: -- R20.


16 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. I will introduce also. Maybe that's just the

17 order how we put it. But we will come to that. Thank you.

18 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Thank you.

19 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Tell me, Mr. Lukic -- not to dwell too long on this matter. These

21 are payrolls of the pharmacy for the months of May, June, July 1992. And

22 as far as I can see, the document concerns attendance as the basis for

23 salaries. Tell us briefly, in this particular case what is the ethnic

24 background of the person who is the manager of the Bosanski Samac

25 pharmacy, on the basis of the information that we have for these several

Page 12796

1 months.

2 A. The pharmacy in question is a state-owned pharmacy. The owner is

3 Almasa Juskovic. She's a Muslim lady, and she's still the manager of this

4 pharmacy even today.

5 Q. Did she return at one point in time after the war in Samac and is

6 now back to her previous position, or did she keep it throughout the war?

7 A. She stayed in Samac throughout that period of time and she kept

8 her position there.

9 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have a number, please, for this document,

10 Ms. Registrar.

11 Q. [Interpretation] Just one more question. I've been reminded by my

12 colleagues. Still on this list, please. What is the ethnic background of

13 other employees of this pharmacy?

14 A. Almasa is a Muslim. Zorka is -- this woman has a Muslim surname

15 and a Serb name. Ruza is a Serb woman and Jovanka Petrovic and also a

16 Serb.

17 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Mr. Usher. Excuse me for the

18 inconvenience.

19 THE REGISTRAR: The payroll you introduced, May, June, July, and

20 the list of employees in the Bosanski Samac pharmacy will be Exhibits

21 D103A/1 and ter, D103B/1 and ter, D103C/1 and ter, and D103D/1 and ter.

22 Thank you.

23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter may have missed one name on the

24 list of employees. We apologise.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic, when you asked the witness to describe

Page 12797

1 the ethnicity on the list of employees.


3 JUDGE MUMBA: The interpreters say that they didn't catch all the

4 names.

5 MR. PANTELIC: Okay. Yes, Your Honour, I will try to clarify that

6 with the witness.

7 Q. Zorka Hadzialijagic, please.

8 A. Muslim surname, but she's a Serb.

9 Q. Maybe she's married to a Muslim?

10 A. Yes, maybe.

11 Q. Rasida Drljacic?

12 A. A Muslim lady.

13 Q. Ruza Popovic?

14 A. A Serb lady.

15 Q. Jovanka Petrovic?

16 A. A Serb lady too.

17 Q. Almasa Jusufovic, who was the manager of the pharmacy, what is

18 her ethnic background?

19 A. She's a Muslim.

20 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.

21 Your Honour, it's about time for a break now. Shall we take a

22 break?

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We'll take a break for 20 minutes. We'll

24 resume at 18.05.

25 --- Recess taken at 5.45 p.m.

Page 12798

1 --- On resuming at 6.05 p.m.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

3 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Now we are going to discuss a document R21/1, 2, 3, 4, and 5.

5 Number 1 is the pay list for the month of May 1992 for the company of

6 waterworks Samac. It's a list consisting of 11 persons.

7 The second pay list is for the month of June 1992 for the same

8 company, a list consisting of 10 persons.

9 The third document is also a pay list for the month of July 1992,

10 same company, consisting of six persons.

11 Then the fourth document is a list of workers -- employees for a

12 kind of specification for the month of June 1992, consisting of 10

13 persons.

14 And the last one is a document with a handwritten date on the top

15 right-hand corner. The date is 16th of June, 1992. It's a request by the

16 waterworks company to the executive board -- the municipal executive

17 board.

18 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Lukic, this first document that we're looking

19 for is for May 1992.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So far you have explained the mechanism of how the salaries were

22 paid out. Can we agree that the list of employees is -- that the

23 employees on the list are of mixed ethnicity?

24 A. Yes. They are different -- from different ethnic groups.

25 Q. It's all right. We don't have to go into details. We have the

Page 12799

1 list here for July and June. Then we have a list for June 1992. And now,

2 this last document, the request, I would just like to comment on it on a

3 couple of points. Do you have it in front of you? Could you please put

4 it on the ELMO so that the clients can see it.

5 Okay. Very well. In June 1992, according to your personal

6 knowledge, what were the technical problems, if there were any, regarding

7 the Samac waterworks? Very briefly, please.

8 A. I don't know whether it was on the first or the second day that I

9 explained that one of the problems, which was a consequence of the war,

10 was the lack of electricity. Since we have installations here that use

11 pumps, which require electricity in order to operate, then there were

12 bottlenecks and stoppages in this case, also due to intense shelling, the

13 waterworks installations were destroyed, especially the pumping stations

14 and the water collection network. This is why we needed expert labour or

15 experts, technicians, who would be able to work on the maintenance of the

16 waterworks and the sewage system, because that is one of the vital

17 facilities during wartime.

18 Q. Do you have any information about the fact that there was an

19 attempt in 1992 to bomb the waterworks facilities in Samac from the air?

20 A. Yes. In the early evening hours a helicopter flew over -- or it

21 was a small airplane, actually, from the direction of Croatia and

22 Slavonski Samac, which dropped several shells in the area of the

23 waterworks facility, also the post office, and the medical centre.

24 Q. When was this? Can you establish the date when this happened?

25 A. I think that this was in the autumn of 1992.

Page 12800

1 Q. Let's go back to this request, whereby the public enterprise of

2 Vodovod, the waterworks in Samac, is seeking the opinion of the executive

3 council regarding the work obligation. I'm interested in the following:

4 The first two persons on the list are, as far as I can see, and in

5 accordance with the earlier list, were key officials. They were the

6 coordinators. Is that so?

7 A. Yes, that's right.

8 Q. What does this term mean, this wording, whereby they say "On

9 behalf of the company state that they are requesting work without set work

10 hours"? Could you please explain to us what does that mean practically.

11 A. That means that the state of the installations was such that it

12 was very alarming and that it was quite possible for the equipment to be

13 disrupted and for blockages to occur in the sewage system, which would

14 then bring about an epidemic.

15 Q. Did these two management officials request for unlimited work

16 hours, around-the-clock work in order to prevent such a thing from

17 happening?

18 A. Yes, that is precisely why they requested it.

19 Q. Let's move to the second group of employees. We've dealt with

20 this first group. When you look at these names -- and perhaps you know

21 them personally. When you look at their names and last names, can you

22 tell us of what ethnicity are these people listed from 3 to 6.

23 A. Muslims.

24 Q. This group was meant to work as follows: 12 through 12. What

25 does that mean?

Page 12801

1 A. That means that these name, these people would work for 12 hours

2 and rest for 12 hours.

3 Q. So that means that they would not be working all day.

4 A. No. There would be two persons per shift.

5 Q. And when you look at this list, do you perhaps remember whether

6 these people worked in the waterworks before the conflict broke out on the

7 17th of April, 1992, who remained in their jobs? Can you please tell us

8 what you know about this.

9 A. I know a number of them, and they were employees of the

10 waterworks. I don't know the last two persons under 10 and 11. I don't

11 know whether they were employed at the waterworks.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 THE REGISTRAR: In the order that the documents were introduced,

14 they will be -- for the list of May 1992, with 11 names, it will be

15 Exhibit D104A/1 and ter.

16 For the second document, payrolls for June 1992, it will be --

17 with 10 names, it will be D104B/1 and ter.

18 For the third document of July 1992, six names, it will be Exhibit

19 D104D/1 and ter.

20 For the fourth document dated June 1992 --

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Excuse me. I thought this last one for the July one

22 should be C. 104C.

23 THE REGISTRAR: I apologise, Your Honour. Yes, C.

24 Just to make things clear for the list of July 1992, with six

25 names, it will be D104C/1 and ter.

Page 12802

1 The fourth document, of June 1992 with 10 names, it will be

2 Exhibit D104D/1 and ter.

3 And the final and fifth document, the request dated 16th of June,

4 1992, it will be Exhibit D104E/1 and ter for the B/C/S. Thank you.

5 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Ms. Registrar.

6 The next document that I would like to discuss with the witness is

7 internal number R22, consisting of three documents /1, 2, and 3. The

8 first document is -- I don't know what is the order, but in my documents

9 it's a pay list for the month of July 1992, company -- a social company

10 Usce Bosne. I have actually the pay list from May until June, but I don't

11 know how the order is in your documents, so maybe I can start from the

12 month of May. Is it okay?

13 JUDGE MUMBA: We have May, June, and July.

14 MR. PANTELIC: That's correct. So I will start with May. Because

15 my order is something different, but in order to have a logical order.

16 So the first document is the pay list for month of May 1992. It's

17 a state company Usce Bosne. It's a pay list consisting of -- just a

18 moment. It' consisting of 45 employees, three-pages document.

19 The second one is also a pay list for the month of June 1992, the

20 same company, three pages.

21 And the third is a pay list for the month of July, 1992, same

22 company, consisting of 24 employees in total.

23 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Lukic, could you please tell me what this

24 company Usce Bosne is. What was its line of work?

25 A. The company Usce Bosne deals with gravel and cement products, so

Page 12803

1 it produces cement products, tiles, paving for blocks for streets, and all

2 kinds of concrete goods.

3 Q. Was that the company that was meant to repair damaged facilities

4 and work on reconstruction?

5 A. Yes, that's right.

6 Q. I assume the documents speak for themselves -- but I assume that

7 here too the ethnic composition of the employees was also mixed in this

8 company, according to these lists.

9 A. You can see here that there are members of all three ethnic

10 groups.

11 Q. And these are the payrolls in accordance with the principle that

12 permission was asked from the executive council and that funds were

13 transferred to bank accounts. It worked under that same principle.

14 A. Yes, that's right.

15 Q. And could you please tell me now so that we can clarify it -- this

16 is the payroll for May. Under number 1, is Mr. Marko Arandzic, the

17 managing officer. In the column where it says "salary," it states on the

18 military list. What does that mean? Did that man work? And if he did,

19 how was he paid? Did he have both military and civilian duties? Could

20 you please explain this to us.

21 A. You can see on this list that he did not receive a salary for his

22 work under the work obligation, even though he did perform that duty and

23 was a managing officer. But he did receive compensation through the

24 brigade or through the military, and this salary was issued by the

25 government or by the Ministry of Defence.

Page 12804

1 Q. There are a couple of other names like that but --

2 A. Yes. But the principle is the same.

3 Q. We won't go into details about that.

4 A. They could not receive salaries under two criteria: He did work

5 in this company the entire time, but he did have an assignment -- a

6 regular assignment in the military. He did and so did the others.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Could we have a number, please, for these

9 three documents.

10 THE REGISTRAR: The payroll for May 1992 will be Exhibit D105A/1

11 and ter. The payroll for June 1992 will be Exhibit D105B/1 and ter. The

12 payroll for July 1992 will be Exhibit D105C/1 and ter. Thank you.

13 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you. The next document I would like to

14 discuss is R23, consisting of -- it's a four-pages document. It's a kind

15 of request from the hospital to the executive board. In total it's seven

16 requests with regard to the fuel, month of August 1992. And the last one

17 is July 1992.

18 Q. [Interpretation] Please tell me, Mr. Lukic, briefly what does this

19 document deal with, if you know?

20 A. Yes, I do, because I paid for this fuel. This is -- this has to

21 do with the work of the hospital, or rather, the operation of the

22 haemodialysis department that assisted patients with kidney conditions.

23 It processed about 50 patients a day. The largest problem, in addition

24 medicine and everything else that was needed for haemodialysis was the

25 problem of insufficient electrical power supply, or rather, there was no

Page 12805

1 electrical power supply at all. I told you that the power grid had been

2 disrupted and disconnected from the power source, so we had to use

3 generators in order to organise the system of dialysis because patients

4 could not go without it for more than two days. So this is just one part

5 of the request that we filed. We had a large generator which enabled 50

6 patients to be hooked to the system simultaneously. So this is just one

7 part of our request for fuel to be allotted to us in order to power the

8 generator.

9 Q. During the following year, 1993, was dialysis -- the haemodialysis

10 kept on functioning despite the war operations in Samac?

11 A. Yes. The dialysis worked non-stop throughout the war. It still

12 operates today. Today they serve 75 patients a day.

13 Q. Although this is not your field, but do you happen to know whether

14 haemodialysis was provided to all residents of Samac irrespective of their

15 ethnicity during war?

16 A. Yes. It was provided to all patients, regardless of their

17 ethnicity. Because these people underwent dialysis before the 17th of

18 April, 1992.

19 Q. The manager of this medical department --


21 MR. RE: The last answer is purely speculation. It doesn't add

22 anything to the proceedings. He hasn't provided any information on who

23 these patients were, how he knows that they were there before, after, the

24 names of them. It's just pure speculation. It has no probative value at

25 all.

Page 12806

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yeah. It could be that he meant that the dialysis

2 facilities were operating even before the war. It's certainly true that

3 he hasn't identified anybody, so he can't be certain that it was the same

4 patients. That's accepted.

5 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Just one more question: Chief of this medical department is

7 Dr. Sisic. Did you know Dr. Sisic?

8 A. Yes. I knew him personally.

9 Q. What was his ethnicity?

10 A. He's a Serb.

11 Q. Was the coordinator at the hospital Dr. Nogic?

12 A. Dr. Nogic was the coordinator of the medical centre. Now we're

13 dealing with the secondary medical services, and Dr. Nogic was the

14 coordinator of the primary medical services.

15 Q. All right. Thank you very much. I thought it was all the same,

16 but apparently it's not.

17 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D106/1 ter. Thank you.

18 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.

19 THE REGISTRAR: I apologise. D106/1, and ter for the B/C/S.

20 Thank you.

21 MR. PANTELIC: [Microphone not activated] Yes. The next one is

22 R26. This is a -- sorry. This next document is R26. This is a letter

23 from Posavina Brigade - it's a military unit - to executive board. The

24 number is 1243/92, dated 11th of August, 1992, signed by the commander,

25 Mr. Radovanovic.

Page 12807

1 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Lukic, we will turn to another area now.

2 Please tell me now, this document was addressed to the executive council,

3 wasn't it? Can you comment on the objective of this memo.

4 A. This document was of an informative nature. It was sent to the

5 executive council, and it specified which actions were taken by the

6 brigade with respect to military conscripts and with respect to the

7 transportation of goods. I think that here this text pertains to military

8 conscripts. I think it does.

9 Q. You mentioned this earlier, but I would like now to focus on item

10 1. Can you tell us, please, people who were military conscripts, aged

11 between 18 and 60, who issued these passes for them in order to be able to

12 leave the zones?

13 A. The passes were issued by military units.

14 Q. Item 2, can you please comment on this. "To prevent uncontrolled

15 transport of goods outside -- export of goods outside of the territory of

16 the zone of responsibility of this brigade." This is mentioned in the

17 preamble, in fact. Can you please tell us what this means.

18 A. I remember that the president of the executive council, when he

19 explained this decision to us, told us that the military unit had learned

20 that a lot of military conscripts were exporting their personal property

21 to Serbia, because they had their families there. And then they were

22 using the time -- their time in order to transport these goods. So by way

23 of this order, they wanted to prevent these goods from being exported, or

24 rather, they wanted to give prior consent to the military conscript in

25 order to enable them to export some goods in a controlled manner.

Page 12808

1 Q. So this topic had nothing to do with civilian organs. It was

2 strictly within the domain of the military authorities. Is that right?

3 A. Yes. This is a purely military matter.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have a number for this exhibit, please.

6 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D107/1 and ter. Thank you.

7 MR. PANTELIC: The next document is R27. This is a two-page

8 document with the title, "Instructions on the implementation of the decree

9 on allowing the temporary use of abandoned farmland, farm buildings, farm

10 machinery and implements", issued by the Minister of Agriculture of

11 Republika Srpska on the 22nd of August, 1992, signed by the minister or

12 someone on behalf of the minister - I'm not so sure - at that time. Yes.

13 That's the document.

14 Q. [Interpretation] Please tell me, Mr. Lukic, whether you were

15 familiar with this instruction and with the decree that preceded it. What

16 was the objective of this and what did it look like in practice?

17 A. Yes. Minister for Agriculture, Waterworks, and Forestry passed

18 this instruction on allowing the temporary use of abandoned farmland, farm

19 buildings, farm machinery and implements. And I spoke about that when I

20 said that the Secretariat for Agriculture had adopted decisions on using

21 funds for autumn planting. That decision was passed pursuant to this

22 instruction, and it pertained to abandoned property that was temporarily

23 given to certain individuals for temporary use, without touching into the

24 ownership structure.

25 Q. Item 3 of this instruction specifies that this decision is passed

Page 12809

1 by the relevant municipal organ. Can you tell us what administrative

2 organ was relevant to pass this in Samac municipality.

3 A. It was the Secretariat for Economy, office for agriculture.

4 Q. Item 4 mentions some kind of a commission that had to draw up a

5 record. Please tell me what commission it was, and can you explain to us

6 what constituted abandoned land. Why was it necessary to use this land

7 and to work this land?

8 A. The Secretariat for Economy in cooperation with the municipal land

9 surveying agency created a commission which in the field had to identify a

10 plot of land in accordance with land surveying plans, meaning a plot of

11 land that had been registered appropriately in the land records and which

12 had an owner. Then the commission issued a decision specifying that the

13 land was owned by such and such person but was temporarily awarded to

14 somebody else.

15 Q. Why was it important to work the land regularly? Why wasn't it

16 just left to decay?

17 A. There was a law in our territory which was in force in 1992 and

18 throughout that all land had to be worked for the simple reason that we

19 couldn't allow it to overgrow and turn into wilderness.

20 Q. Would that reduce the quality of the arable land?

21 A. No. The quality would remain the same; however, later on one

22 would have to invest a lot of effort to cultivate the land again and use

23 it appropriately.

24 Q. Since you said that temporary use did not mean that the land was

25 confiscated from its previous owners, can you please tell us whether this

Page 12810

1 abandoned land was owned by all three ethnic groups in Samac municipality

2 or this applied only to certain ethnic groups.

3 A. It applied to all three ethnicities.

4 Q. All right. Let's give an example. If a Serb left his land, what

5 happened with that land? Was this decree applied to that land as well?

6 A. The same instruction applied to everyone regardless of whether

7 they were Serbs, Croats, or Muslims, because there was a law on compulsory

8 cultivation of land. Therefore, if the rightful owner was not cultivating

9 his or her land, then somebody else could be given temporary custody of

10 it.

11 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me. Mr. Lukic.


13 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Would you be able to give us some idea as to the

14 amount of farm property we're talking about? And also, apart from saying

15 "all three ethnic groups", would you be able to go beyond that a little

16 bit and maybe give us some idea again as to the breakdown of the property?

17 That might be useful.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If we are speaking about what land

19 was mostly regulated by this decree, I have to say that the largest part

20 of the land was owned by Croats, and then by Serbs and Muslims. And as to

21 the area of the land, that would be some 6 to 700 hectares of arable land.

22 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

23 MR. PANTELIC: Sorry. Can we have a number for this exhibit, this

24 document.

25 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D108/1 and D108/1 ter. Thank

Page 12811

1 you.

2 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you. The next document that I would like to

3 discuss is R31. This is a two-page document. It's a letter. It's

4 information sent by Red Cross -- local organisation of Red Cross of Samac

5 to the executive board. It's kind of information on the activities of

6 president of the Samac Municipal Red Cross and the head of Samac hospital

7 in collecting expendable supplies for the haemodialysis centre.

8 Q. [Interpretation] This document was sent to the executive council

9 in February 1993. I don't know if you remember what the document was all

10 about. If you do, please give us your opinion about this document.

11 A. Yes, I do remember it. The executive council had sent these two

12 individuals, the coordinator of the hospital, Mr. Sisic, and the president

13 of the Red Cross, Mr. Velimir Maslic, to visit a number of places in

14 Belgrade in order to secure adequate assistance for the haemodialysis

15 department of this hospital because the situation at that time was already

16 critical; that is to say, we were no longer enable to ensure resources for

17 the purchase of otherwise very expensive equipment which was used on a

18 daily basis.

19 Q. Could you comment on the last paragraph of this memo. What

20 interests me in particular is the relation with the Belgrade office of the

21 WHO, whose representatives had visited them in the meantime. Do you know

22 if there had been any contacts with the officials of the WHO for the

23 purposes of resolving this situation?

24 A. Yes. I was involved in some intensive talks with the Medecins

25 sans Frontier. And throughout that period of time and even later in 1996,

Page 12812

1 1997, and 1998 they were helping us in the purchase of this equipment,

2 namely, these dialysis. They even visited the haemodialysis department on

3 one occasion and came to the municipality on a number of occasions.

4 Q. During the war as well?

5 A. Yes, during the war as well.

6 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have a number for this exhibit, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D109/1 and D109/1 ter. Thank

8 you.

9 MR. PANTELIC: The next document is IO1. It's a two-page document

10 regarding official travels, dated 9th of June, 1992, issued by executive

11 board -- municipal executive board.

12 Q. [Interpretation] Can you briefly tell us something about this

13 particular decision. It was an operational document. Just a brief

14 explanation, please.

15 A. This instruction was signed by the president of the executive

16 council. It concerns official travels of the coordinators of economic and

17 other departments. This is an official travel authorisation -- I mean,

18 the official travel authorisations could be issued only by the executive

19 council so that they had information on the whereabouts of the

20 coordinator, where he went, how long he stayed, and what the purpose of

21 the travel was.

22 Q. When you say "the coordinator," you're probably referring to the

23 manager of the relevant company.

24 A. Yes, the relevant company or the relevant institution.

25 Q. On the other page I can see a list of the persons to whom these

Page 12813

1 expenses were to be paid from the budget. What about other companies?

2 Who covered their travel expenses?

3 A. It was the executive council that authorised such travels, but

4 they had to secure resources for their travels.

5 Q. So you're referring to the companies who sent their employees to

6 such travels, and you want to say that they had to cover for their

7 expenses.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Among those employees who went on official travels for various

10 reasons, either from these companies or some other institutions or organs,

11 who were they? Who was covered by this authorisation?

12 A. Well, for instance, you have here Mr. Nogic.

13 Q. What is he by ethnicity?

14 A. He was a Muslim.

15 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have the number, please.

16 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D110/1 and D110/1 ter. Thank

17 you.

18 MR. PANTELIC: The next document is IO2, a one-page document.

19 It's two pages of translation. It's a document regarding the formation of

20 commission for the assignment of houses for the temporary use pursuant to

21 a decision of the executive committee, issued -- dated 19th of July, 1992,

22 issued by executive board -- or municipal executive board.

23 Q. [Interpretation] Very briefly, Mr. Lukic. Here we see that a

24 commission was established, but this is preceded by a decision on the

25 assignment of some property. Are we talking about the composition of this

Page 12814

1 commission in this document? What were they doing?

2 A. This commission did not issue decisions on the temporary use of

3 abandoned property. Its task concerned the individuals who had already

4 been issued such decisions on authorisation -- approvals on temporary use.

5 They had to make appropriate record on what was found on arrival in such

6 house or on that property and to attach this record to the relevant

7 decision on the temporary use of abandoned property. I believe that I

8 addressed the issue yesterday.

9 Q. It was a decree issued at the level of the republic that governed

10 these issues.

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you. Could I have a number for this

13 document.

14 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D111/1 and ter. Thank you.

15 MR. PANTELIC: So the next document which I would like to discuss

16 is IO3. It's a request for issuance of decision for the work assignment,

17 dated 7th of August, 1992.

18 Q. [Interpretation] This memo was sent by the executive council to

19 the municipal department for National Defence in Samac. In light of what

20 you have already told us, is it true that regardless of who requested the

21 work assignment, the whole procedure had to go through the ministry at the

22 level of the republic? They could not adopt the appropriate decision on

23 their own. What is the relationship between the relevant organ at the

24 municipal level and the ministry at the level of the republic?

25 A. The president of the executive council issues a request for work

Page 12815

1 assignment to the Secretariat for National Defence, which is an autonomous

2 organ under the jurisdiction of the Ministry for Defence.

3 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have a number, please.

4 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D112/1 and ter. Thank you.

5 MR. PANTELIC: The next document is IO4, dated the 11th of

6 September, 1992, signed by -- issued by the executive board. It's an

7 order to prohibit payment for cattle and other agriculture products

8 purchased.

9 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Lukic, I don't personally fully understand

10 this particular decision. Can you explain it to us, please, if you know.

11 I see that the addressees are agricultural collectives, the Pik company, a

12 socially-owned company, and I see that there is a provision here of the

13 SAO Semberija and Majevica. Just briefly, what was the purpose of this

14 decision? What was its objective?

15 A. I told you about the decision of the Crisis Staff, that is, an

16 order of the Crisis Staff concerning the spoils of war and the instruction

17 and the decree issued to that effect by Republika Srpska concerning

18 collection and handover of spoils of war. This order pertains to this

19 issue.

20 Now, what was this all about? It had come to our notice that

21 individuals had found abandoned cattle, wandering cattle in the fields,

22 and they then addressed themselves -- they would come to these various

23 organs and try to sell this cattle. They were not dealing with anybody

24 else's property but only with the property in respect of which there was

25 adequate ownership records. And when we noticed that these individuals

Page 12816

1 were selling two, three, or more cows to these companies, we issued an

2 order to these companies whereby we banned any payment to be made on

3 account of this cattle sale. Eventually this cattle was made part of the

4 republic commodity reserves in accordance with the appropriate decree, and

5 it was not paid for to those individuals who had handed it over to the

6 relevant organs without adequate papers.

7 Q. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the purpose was to prevent these

8 individual attempts of fraud.

9 A. Whoever wanted to obtain any gain illegally had to be sanctioned.

10 So whenever we knew of such cases, we issued relevant decisions or

11 instructions.

12 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have a number for this document.

13 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D113/1 and ter. Thank you.

14 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.

15 Your Honour, I believe it's practically 7.00.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, it's 7.00. And according to the agreed hours

17 for this witness, you have one hour more.

18 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, I have virtually six or seven

19 documents to discuss and maybe a couple of questions in addition, so --


21 MR. PANTELIC: I think I am well below --

22 JUDGE MUMBA: No. You have one hour more.

23 So we'll adjourn and continue tomorrow at 14.15 hours.

24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,

25 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 27th day of

Page 12817

1 November, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.