Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13015

1 Friday, 29 November 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Case number

8 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Miroslav Tadic, and Simo

9 Zaric.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The proceedings will continue under Rule 15

11 bis, paragraph A, as Judge Williams is not with us.

12 Examination-in-chief continues, Mr. Pantelic.

13 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Thank you, Your Honours. Good afternoon.


15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 Examined by Mr. Pantelic: [Continued]

17 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Simic. Yesterday, just

18 before we adjourned, I asked you several questions with respect to the

19 members of the Crisis Staff, and you started giving us some explanations.

20 But having looked at the lists I have here, I'd like to go back to that

21 topic with a few more questions.

22 First of all, tell us this, please: Mr. Miroslav Tadic, do you

23 know when he became a member of the Crisis Staff and on what grounds?

24 A. As far as I remember, Mr. Miroslav Tadic became a member of the

25 Crisis Staff when he became the head of civil defence or civilian

Page 13016

1 protection. That was after the Crisis Staff had been established.

2 Q. Do you know the date perhaps?

3 A. No, I can't tell you the date.

4 Q. But it was probably sometime in April, wasn't it?

5 A. Yes, I think it was sometime in April.

6 Q. Another question with respect to this line of questioning:

7 Mr. Fadil Topcagic, as you yourself said, was also a member of the Crisis

8 Staff in that time frame. Did he have the right to vote? Did he have a

9 vote within the Crisis Staff?

10 A. Mr. Fadil Topcagic was mentioned as being a member of the Crisis

11 Staff, but he hardly ever took part in the work of the Crisis Staff,

12 actually. And I interpret this as the fact that many people who were

13 there actually didn't have any assignments, didn't have any field that was

14 assigned to them. And Fadil Topcagic did not take part in fact work of

15 the Crisis Staff, actually.

16 Q. But formally he did have a vote. He carried a vote, didn't he?

17 A. Yes, he did.

18 Q. And one more question with respect to Mr. Savo Popovic and party

19 membership. You said he was a member of the SDP. However, I should like

20 to ask you whether you would like to add anything to that.

21 A. I said that he was a member of the League of Communists. Now,

22 whether in the meantime he joined the SDP, moved over to the SDP that had

23 just been set up, quite possibly. But what I do know for certain is that

24 he was not at any of the party lists for the elections on the 18th of

25 November, 1990, so that possibly he was not actually a member of the SDP.

Page 13017

1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Simic. Now tell me, please, in those first few

2 days, what was your actual work? What did your work in the Crisis Staff

3 entail? Could you give us an outline of your activities.

4 A. Well, let me try and recollect what I did during that period of

5 time. I knew that there was general chaos and the situation was highly

6 unsettled and muddled, and so somebody who like myself had a special

7 assignment - mine was in the sector of information - had to do many other

8 things as well. In fact, everybody had to do everything. For example, if

9 there was a power cut anywhere, then we'd have to see to that. If a

10 member of the Crisis Staff was free at that particular time, he would be

11 assigned to see what he could do about that, to put the matter right. Or

12 another example: If there was a shortage of water or a food shortage, one

13 of the Crisis Staff might be called upon to intervene and see what could

14 be done. So during that time frame, the Crisis Staff in fact coordinated

15 activities of these kind in order to try and put a bit of order into the

16 general chaos and to control it in a way.

17 Q. Tell me, please, in those first few days, or rather, in that first

18 week after mid-April 1992 technically speaking what did the -- what were

19 the meetings like? Where was the seat of the Crisis Staff? Where did you

20 have your meetings?

21 A. In the first few days, our headquarters was in the social company

22 that I already mentioned, PIK, the factory farm, the agricultural and

23 industrial combine, and also in another socially-owned enterprise called

24 Uniglas. And those two enterprises were located next to each other. They

25 were buildings side by side, so both those buildings were used as

Page 13018

1 headquarters for the Crisis Staff, depending on where we could get the job

2 done.

3 Q. I apologise, but could we have a map. Could we have the map,

4 please.

5 MR. PANTELIC: Exhibit D27/3, please. I do apologise. We're not

6 receiving -- Your Honour, we have a problem.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

8 MR. PANTELIC: We have a problem with the display. Maybe now it

9 will be better.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: With what?

11 MR. PANTELIC: With the ELMO transmission on our displays. We

12 don't have a -- now it's okay. Thank you.

13 Q. [Interpretation] Take up that metal pointer. I think it's right

14 by the microphone. Can you see it, the metal pointer, witness? There it

15 is in front of you. And now show us where the PIK company was. Show us

16 on the map, please, the PIK factory farm.

17 A. Well, I can see it on the piece of paper.

18 Q. Mr. Simic, you look at the paper. Don't look at the screen. Look

19 at the paper in front of you and point with your pointer the location of

20 the PIK company.

21 A. [Indicates]

22 Q. Take it nice and slowly. Let's see the PIK company first.

23 A. [Indicates]

24 Q. Right. Now, how long was the Crisis Staff's headquarters there?

25 A. For one or two days.

Page 13019

1 Q. All right. And where did it move to then?

2 A. It was in the Uniglas building for another day or two.

3 Q. All right. And later on, where was the headquarters of the Crisis

4 Staff?

5 A. In the power plant -- heating plant, actually.

6 Q. Could you point that out to us.

7 A. [Indicates]

8 Q. Thank you. Was the heating -- heating plant near the stadium or

9 in that district?

10 A. It was -- here it is.

11 Q. Show us, please. Could you show us once again, point it out once

12 again for us, please.

13 A. [Indicates]

14 Q. I see. All right.

15 A. By the steel and Buducnost company.

16 MR. PANTELIC: Just for the record, the witness identified on the

17 Exhibit D97/3 positions of the three premises of Crisis Staff, PIK, and

18 then Uniglas company, and then heating plant.


20 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.

21 MR. LAZAREVIC: I do apologise. Here it says "on Exhibit D97/3."

22 It was actually D27/3.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Yes. The correct ID number is --


25 JUDGE MUMBA: Exhibit number is D27/3.

Page 13020

1 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Thank you. I would like to thank to my

2 learned friend.

3 Q. [Interpretation] All right. Tell me, please, Mr. Simic: The

4 activities of the Crisis Staff, what did they consist of? Or rather, tell

5 us what the meetings looked like. Was there an agenda? Who drew up the

6 proposals? What topics were discussed by the Crisis Staff in that first

7 period, in the first few weeks of April? Is that kind of thing. Tell us

8 something about that, please.

9 A. Well, in that initial period, and especially in the first couple

10 of days, there was a lot to do in the field on the ground, if I can put it

11 that way, so we didn't actually have time to hold meetings and Crisis

12 Staff sessions. And as the Samac municipality was cut -- or rather, as

13 all forms of communication in Samac were cut, the telephone lines were

14 down, the communications, the goods and services, it was in a closed

15 session, so it was within this area that chaos reigned. It was all one

16 big disorder, like an ant hill, everybody rushing around and everybody

17 doing all sorts of work. And I'm going to try and point out the three

18 dominant areas. We had to focus on food for the people, food supplies for

19 the population, because the companies had stopped working, production had

20 ceased, and we had to take care of the ill and the wounded, the people who

21 had been injured, and there were many problems that had to be solved,

22 problems which you don't think about in peacetime but in extraordinary

23 situations of this kind, they appear to be problems and you have to deal

24 with them.

25 What we also had to do was to organise production, so that little

Page 13021

1 by little we could bring the companies back to operational order. So the

2 Crisis Staff discussed matters of that kind. And from time to time it

3 would take part in these activities, or rather, individual members of the

4 Crisis Staff did.

5 The Crisis Staff also set up a professional service of its own,

6 and this was headed by Mr. Mitar Mitrovic. He was a lawyer by profession.

7 And there was an information service as well. As to the other members, I

8 don't know what each of them -- what each of their assignments were and

9 what they actually did, but I do know that Mr. Popovic, for example, was

10 in charge of coordinating the work of the Crisis Staff with the local

11 communities and some physical geographical aspects had to be looked into,

12 which means that he had to coordinate with some 20 villages. These

13 villages did not have any modern means of communication amongst

14 themselves, so he had to establish something like that. They didn't have

15 any telephone links or anything like that.

16 Q. And you yourself, you personally, what was your assignment? What

17 did you do?

18 A. My job was the following: First of all, I helped get the radio

19 station back into operation, and I did my best to organise information

20 activity, which meant first of all the Samac radio station. At that time

21 Samac didn't have a newspaper of its own, so I stepped in. There was --

22 the newspaper media did not exist. I also had to establish contact with

23 the rest of the media, those who were interested in broadcasting

24 information, and we would give them the information, which was then

25 broadcast and published in Yugoslavia, the Yugoslavia media. I was also

Page 13022

1 in charge of welcoming a television crew and journalists, to help them in

2 those first contacts in Samac, to help them find their way more easily and

3 to be able to do their job as journalists more easily. And let me say

4 that we had a lot of problems with the radio station, because one day

5 after the establishment of the Crisis Staff, I talked to the

6 editor-in-chief of Samac Radio. His name was Mr. Vaso Antic. And he told

7 me that the radio station was unable to function because the building

8 itself in which the transmitter was located - and it is right next door to

9 the secondary school building which had been set fire to -- to the

10 elementary school building - and that the transmitter had also been

11 damaged and couldn't be used. The Samac radio station, let me say, at

12 that time had three frequencies. It was broadcast over three frequencies;

13 that is to say, before the war. One was medium, the medium wave

14 frequency, and two UKT frequencies, short wave. However, it was only able

15 to broadcast on the medium wave frequency, and it had a transmitter to the

16 power of 100 watts, which had been damaged in a fire.

17 Q. You said UKT. Could you describe what you mean by UKT.

18 A. UKT, ultra short waves and medium waves.

19 Q. Please continue.

20 A. So the radio station was not operational. However, the

21 editor-in-chief who had already established his own mini journalistic

22 team, said that he could do something about it to make the station

23 operational, at least to perform work in a modest framework. They had

24 some equipment which had been decommissioned, and within that equipment

25 they found a transmitter, UKT transmitter, which had very low power.

Page 13023

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we move fairly fast. We don't need the details.

2 Simply go ahead. Was it repaired? Did it operate?

3 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Instead of all these details.

5 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. All right, Mr. Simic. Just tell us what happened in the end.

7 Were you able to repair it, fix it, and to have the staff of journalists

8 start working?

9 A. Yes. That small transmitter was repaired. However, it worked

10 only for one day and only one hour at that, and then afterward it broke

11 down again. I was told that there was some kind of problem with it

12 overheating and that as a result of that, something in the equipment had

13 been damaged, so that for the next 10 to 15 --

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Okay. After it broke down after one day for an

15 hour, was it repaired again?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. After 10 to 15 days.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: How long did it operate after that?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After that, the transmitter worked

19 all the way up until mid-1992, when a new one a different, a more powerful

20 transmitter, was procured.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic, can you continue.


23 Q. [Interpretation] Now, as to the electric power, can you tell us

24 how did that electric power supply impact the operation of the radio

25 station.

Page 13024

1 A. Well, it had a direct impact because we had constant power

2 outages, so that presented an additional problem. So during those first

3 month and a half to two, the radio station wasn't really very useful as a

4 media outlet. As a result of that, we tried to overcome that problem, and

5 a bulletin was established, a written paper, leaflet, that informed about

6 the events on the ground. But since this bulletin had a circulation of

7 some 30 to 50 copies in total, the information of public continued to be a

8 problem.

9 I have to add though that some other newspapers would occasionally

10 print or publish stories from our area. There were even some television

11 programmes that dealt with this as well. I think that in late May, early

12 June we in our information service produced two programmes, or rather, we

13 taped footage to be used in two television programmes that were later to

14 be broadcast by the Radio Television Serbia.

15 I can tell you what topics they dealt with. The first one had to

16 do with the shelling of Samac. The second one dealt with the

17 participation of the Croatian army in operations in that area.

18 Q. I would like you to comment on a document that presents part of

19 this court's records.

20 MR. PANTELIC: -- P89.

21 Q. [Interpretation] You can now take a look at this document on the

22 ELMO. You can see it in its entirety. On the ELMO.

23 Tell me, please, are you familiar with this document?

24 A. Yes, I am. It was passed on the same day when the Crisis Staff

25 was established.

Page 13025

1 Q. Upon reading the preamble of this document, one can see that

2 paramilitary formations are mentioned in it and then terror against

3 innocent population and so on. Can you give me more details about the

4 circumstances under which this document was drafted. What did it refer

5 to?

6 A. The starting point for the document was that the situation in

7 which we found ourselves was not regular. It was abnormal. Therefore,

8 this decision on introducing state of emergency was passed.

9 Q. Now, let us please go back to my question. Please take a look at

10 the preamble, the introduction part of this document. You can see it on

11 the ELMO. You can read it out for yourself, just to remind yourself.

12 A. This refers to the paramilitary formations which were organised by

13 the Party of Democratic Action and the Croatian Democratic Community.

14 Q. Now, tell me something else, please. This mentions the incursion

15 of the paramilitary formations. From which territory did they come from?

16 A. Well, they had in mind members of the Croatian army and the

17 incursion of them from that area. That area across the Sava River was in

18 the Republic of Croatia. And they supported this incursion.

19 Q. When did you personally learn about this situation, about this

20 incursion?

21 A. I learnt about this during those days when they arrived, when

22 these documents reached the Crisis Staff, these documents that we are

23 discussing now.

24 Q. In the Posavina region, what was the situation like, say in Odzak?

25 MR. WEINER: Objection.

Page 13026

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

2 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, he keeps on using the word "they." He's

3 talking about these documents. Is he talking about this particular

4 document? He learned about this when he received this particular

5 document? It's not clear what he's talking about.

6 MR. PANTELIC: I will clarify that, yes.

7 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, you mentioned the information about

8 the incursion of these troops, and then you mentioned some documents.

9 What did you have in mind? Let's take it step by step. You as a member

10 of the Crisis Staff on the 19th passed this decision, I mean, the Crisis

11 Staff as an institution did. And this decision was passed based on

12 something. We would like to know now what was the basis for drafting this

13 decision and especially this introductory part of it, the preamble.

14 Please explain to the Trial Chamber what you knew at the time about

15 certain facts, if you knew about them. And if you didn't, let us continue

16 with something else.

17 MR. PANTELIC: Mr. Usher, you can sit, because I will discuss this

18 document with some more questions, so thank you.

19 Q. [Interpretation] Well, so you know what we're interested in. This

20 document was passed. It had an introductory part, the preamble. Give us

21 some more details regarding it.

22 A. At the meeting itself, the members of the Crisis Staff learnt the

23 details about what had been prepared.

24 Q. Who did they learn it from?

25 A. They learned it from certain services which monitored this and

Page 13027

1 from the military and the police services.

2 Q. Was there a particular individual involved in this? Did somebody

3 come and report about this, or was there a written report that had

4 arrived?

5 A. This was announced in the introductory speech, and there had been

6 people there who had been informed. I can't really remember now in that

7 chaotic situation who was the one who came with those papers, but they

8 were there.

9 Q. And what did they say? What did they say to you?

10 A. We were told that from the Republic of Croatia -- in the Republic

11 of Croatia there had been some forces ready to make an incursion into

12 Samac. Then we were told that in the territory of Odzak municipality

13 there were some forces there ready to attack from the flank and that in

14 Samac itself there had been armed formations called the Green Berets,

15 members of the Croatian Defence Forces, HOS, and members of the HVO. And

16 it wasn't difficult to find confirmation for that because in the PIK

17 itself, on that first day when we came in to have our session there, there

18 were some 30 people that had been found there wearing ZNG uniforms [As

19 interpreted]. This was no surprise, in view of the fact that the director

20 of that company was Mr. Bozanovic, who had used that enterprise as a

21 logistics base.

22 MR. LAZAREVIC: Just a matter of clarification of the transcript.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

24 MR. LAZAREVIC: Of the transcript. Here on page 13, line 17, it

25 says that there were some 30 people that had been found there wearing ZNG

Page 13028

1 uniforms. Actually, the witness was just talking about finding uniform,

2 not about capturing some 30 men with ZNG uniforms. He said that they

3 found uniforms, not people wearing uniforms.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Oh, I see.

5 MR. PANTELIC: I'll clarify that.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: With the witness, yes.


8 Q. [Interpretation] You heard what the problem is with the

9 transcript. You told us what was found then, in the PIK premises.

10 A. The uniforms of the ZNG had been found, that is, the uniforms that

11 had been worn by the regular Croatian troops.

12 Q. What were their colours? Can you describe them?

13 A. Those were multicoloured uniforms, green-grey colour.

14 Q. Did they have any insignia on them?

15 A. They had insignia of the Croatian army.

16 Q. And when you mentioned Mr. Bozanovic, who was the director of that

17 enterprise, can you tell us his full name and what was his ethnic

18 background.

19 A. His name was Marko Bozanovic, and he's an ethnic Croat. He was a

20 commander of the newly created Territorial Defence of Bosnia and

21 Herzegovina.

22 Q. Now, please tell me this: As we are analysing this document, we

23 can see in item 6 of this decision something that I would like to ask you

24 about now. How long did the state of emergency exist for?

25 A. I'm unable to give you a theoretical answer to that. I cannot

Page 13029

1 describe what is a state of emergency and what is a regular state. As far

2 as I'm concerned, the state of emergency continues all the way up until

3 the regular life is re-established, and that did not happen in that period

4 of time.

5 Q. When was the first session of the municipal assembly held in 1992?

6 Not counting the founding assembly in February that we had mentioned -- or

7 rather, let me ask you this: Had it been held, was it in 1992 or 1993?

8 A. As far as I remember, the first session of the municipal assembly

9 in Samac was held on the 22nd of January, 1993.

10 Q. Please tell me, how long did the Crisis Staff exist under that

11 name?

12 A. The Crisis Staff functioned under that name until July of 1992.

13 Q. And then after that what body took over and functioned then, in

14 July of 1992?

15 A. After that there was the War Presidency, which had been

16 established pursuant to some decree which existed and which had been

17 presented to us by the Secretary of the municipal assembly, Mr. Mitar

18 Mitrovic.

19 Q. The War Presidency, was it another body, or rather, the second

20 body in line in respect of the Crisis Staff, with respect to the number of

21 members, et cetera, or not?

22 A. It was the number-two body, because the documents prescribed who

23 could become a member of the War Presidency, those who were eligible.

24 Q. The decree on the introduction of a state of emergency and point 7

25 in the contents of this document, was it made public or was it just

Page 13030

1 restricted to the Crisis Staff? And if the population did know about it,

2 how was it made public?

3 A. This decision was never made public. It was never published in

4 any form of information media. And the citizens were able to learn about

5 it because there would be a copy which was paraphrased and sent out by way

6 of a piece of information, and it was disseminated in the form of a

7 leaflet or pamphlet. And one of the leaflets would be sent to the local

8 commune, which informed people about what was going on. But many of the

9 citizens never received this information, so point 7 of this document is a

10 sort of -- more of a formal piece of rather information rather than

11 actual.

12 Q. With respect to the previous document while we're waiting for this

13 next one to be found, what kind of typewriter was used, what kind of

14 letters? What kind of technical equipment did the Crisis Staff have?

15 A. As far as I remember, the Crisis Staff had a typewriter with the

16 Cyrillic script. And the decisions it made were typed out on this

17 typewriter in the Cyrillic script, and it still exists.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Would you mind repeating the number of the

19 exhibit. It's not on the record. Thank you.

20 MR. PANTELIC: It's P79, please.

21 Q. [Interpretation] Take a look at this document, please. It's on

22 your right-hand side. What can you tell us about that document,

23 Mr. Simic.

24 A. This proclamation was primarily intended for the use of the media.

25 And there was a follow-up to it, or rather, the media and agencies studied

Page 13031

1 it and it was disseminated. I'm not sure whether it was actually

2 broadcast over our own radio station, because on the day that the

3 programme was interrupted because there was breakdown in the equipment --

4 actually, what I'm saying is I don't know if that proclamation was ever

5 broadcast. But if it was, then it appeared in that form.

6 Q. Do you remember this document? It's written in the Latin script,

7 typewritten, again. How can you explain that?

8 A. Well, when this proclamation was typed out and compiled, the

9 Crisis Staff and its service was in -- either in the PIK company building

10 or the Uniglas company building, so the person who typed this out probably

11 used one of the typewriters they found in one of the two firms.

12 Q. And explain this to me, please: The header in the top left-hand

13 corner, which is handwritten, why was that written up in hand? Do you

14 happen to know? I'm especially interested in the date, which is the 17th

15 of April. Was this document in fact compiled on the 17th of April, as it

16 says, or do you know something else?

17 A. No. This document was drafted on the 19th of April. It came into

18 being on the 19th of April. I don't know why anybody made this

19 handwritten addition. I can only assume that this was written in

20 subsequently. And in the workers' booklets, for example, that people had,

21 this date, the 17th, would be written in, so that workers would have no

22 interruption in their work, in their work booklets. So I can only assume

23 that that was why this date was written in.

24 Q. And tell me, please, what was the basis of the information

25 contained in paragraph 1 of this document? Take a look at the right-hand

Page 13032

1 side. It's not a very legible copy, I'm afraid.

2 A. Like the previous decision and document we saw. The same thing.

3 Q. All right. Now, tell me this: I can see a stamp here, and there

4 was a stamp on the previous document as well. Why didn't it say "Crisis

5 Staff" on the stamp? How do you explain what it says on the stamp here,

6 the wording on the stamp? And I think it says "The Serbian Municipality

7 of Bosanski Samac," I think -- "Pelagicevo." I think that's what it says.

8 What do you know about that and what can you tell us about that?

9 A. Well, as far as the stamp is concerned, there was a separate

10 department in charge of stamps. I can't really give you any more

11 information about that.

12 Q. All right. Very well. Thank you.

13 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Thank you. Could we have now, please,

14 Exhibit P3.

15 Q. [Interpretation] Take a look at this document. Leaf through it.

16 Take it in your hands, put it in front of you, and have a perusal of it.

17 Look at the title of the document, the date, and all the rest. Have you

18 had a chance to look through it?

19 A. Yes, I have.

20 Q. Have you ever seen this document before?

21 A. No, never.

22 Q. Was this document discussed by anybody before 1992, in 1992, or

23 later on? Did you ever hear anybody mention a document with this heading,

24 with this title?

25 A. No, never. I've never heard of the existence of anything like

Page 13033

1 this, and I don't know that anybody discussed this particular document.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Usher. We can take this

4 document, please.

5 Now I would like to discuss a document, P73, please.

6 Q. [Interpretation] Tell me, please, do you remember this document by

7 any chance?

8 A. Before we continue and before I answer your question, can I say

9 the following: I would like to establish my position and say that the

10 Crisis Staff never discussed things by being given a written document and

11 then going on to discuss the written document and adopt it or not adopt

12 it. The procedure was different. It made its decisions in the following

13 way: A topic would be placed on the agenda. The Crisis Staff would

14 discuss it. And then its professional service would sit down to write the

15 document required. So I remember that on the agenda of one of the Crisis

16 Staff meetings we did discuss this issue. This topic was on the agenda,

17 but the form that the decision took and how it was written, as we can see

18 it here, was something that was compiled later on. So this isn't

19 something I can comment on in that way. But I do remember that a decision

20 of this kind did exist.

21 Q. Well, we're talking about the actual subject under discussion.

22 Now, could you take a look at the signature. Whose signature is that? Is

23 it Dr. Blagoje Simic's signature, if you happen to recognise it?

24 A. No, I don't recognise it.

25 Q. Would you be able to recognise his signature at all if you saw it?

Page 13034

1 A. No, not really.

2 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have, please, Exhibit P74.

3 And this one may rest for a second just, to make a small

4 comparison.

5 Q. [Interpretation] Would you place one document next to the other

6 and tell me whether you recognise the signature on this new document to

7 your left, on your left. I know you're not an expert in handwriting, but

8 perhaps you could tell us.

9 A. I really don't --

10 Q. Well, you were in that body, a member of the body for a time.

11 MR. WEINER: I object.


13 MR. WEINER: He indicated he wasn't familiar with the signature,

14 so --

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

16 MR. PANTELIC: Okay.

17 Q. [Interpretation] I know you're not an expert, but at first glance,

18 are they the same signatures?

19 MR. WEINER: I'd object.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic.


22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: He told you he can't recognise the signatures.

24 MR. PANTELIC: I agree.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: So why are you pressing him?

Page 13035

1 MR. PANTELIC: He was not a handwriting expert.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: You are wasting time.


4 Q. [Interpretation] Tell me this: Do you remember the order of the

5 6th of May?

6 MR. PANTELIC: -- Mr. Usher. Yes.

7 It's P74.

8 Q. [Interpretation] I'm interested in point 1. What comment can you

9 make -- how can you comment point 1 of this order? What was the purpose

10 of it, if you recall?

11 A. I think I can remember what this referred to, the situation. Let

12 me explain it in this way: It was customary -- I have to give you a

13 longer answer in order to explain what I mean. In the former system, the

14 army was considered to be a popular army, an army of the people, and we

15 saw the army being depicted in Partisan films and things of that kind.

16 And customary for the people to organise luncheons for the army, and this

17 was what they did in this war too. The soldiers were also the sons of

18 farmers, people from the grass roots, the salt of the earth. And in order

19 to help the army, the people organised lunches for the soldiers. I'm not

20 sure that I have explained this very well, but I did my best in the short

21 space of time.

22 Q. Now, there's a term used here "special battalion." What can you

23 tell us about this special battalion? Who was it? Who made up the

24 special battalion? Who was the commander? How many members did it have?

25 Things like that. Can you tell us anything about that, and the purpose of

Page 13036

1 the battalion itself.

2 A. As to the battalion and this military issue, I can't really tell

3 you a great deal, but what I do know is the following: The special

4 battalion consisted of young men who at that time did not wish to be mere

5 static soldiers, that is to say, to be deployed up at the front line and

6 just stand there. They wanted to take part in offensives, in offensive

7 operations. And then once they had completed this military action, they

8 wanted to have a longer spell to rest. Otherwise, they were mostly young

9 people from Samac and the surrounding villages.

10 Q. Do you know how many made up the battalion?

11 A. No, I don't.

12 Q. What do you know about the volunteers who had come in from Serbia?

13 When did you hear about volunteers, if you ever heard about them?

14 A. I heard that there were volunteers in the army, but the -- there

15 was very scant information about them, hardly any at all. All I do know

16 is that one of them would sow the seeds of fear, and he was known as Lugar

17 [As interpreted].

18 Q. What other name comes to mind when you mention the volunteers?

19 A. Well, there was a man called Crni.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Meaning "black." Interpreter's note.

21 A. And I can't remember any other names.

22 Q. There's something wrong with the transcript again.

23 MR. LAZAREVIC: -- that I noticed. The witness said, when

24 speaking about Lugar, he was the one who would sow the seed of fear among

25 Serb population. This is what we heard, and I don't see this in the

Page 13037

1 transcript. It's on page 22, line 17 and 18.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic can deal with that with the

3 witness.

4 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. When you spoke about Lugar, what were you trying to say? What did

6 you say?

7 A. I said the following: I didn't hear anything about other

8 volunteers. I have no information about them. However, I did hear things

9 about this one, and that was within the context that I told you about.

10 Q. Could you repeat that context, because it wasn't in the

11 transcript.

12 A. He sowed fear among the Serb population.

13 Q. In which way? What did you hear about him?

14 A. I heard that he had physically abused soldiers, residents, and so

15 on that, he got drunk frequently, that he was very aggressive. In one

16 word, that he was a man who terrorised the people around him, terrorised

17 his environment. I even think, now that I recollect this - I don't know

18 if it was in late May or early June, but one of the people in the Crisis

19 Staff security told me that on one occasion Lugar came to the Crisis Staff

20 premises and this man from the Crisis Staff security told me that Lugar

21 had been drunk. The security did not dare stop him. However, this man

22 from the security followed him from one room into another. Lugar was

23 looking to find somebody. And then he turned around and asked him, "What

24 were you doing there?" And then the man from the security said, "Well,

25 I'm just here doing my job." And then Lugar cursed him and told him that

Page 13038

1 it would be better for him to go to the front line, and then he turned one

2 more time and said, "Where is that fat Blagoje?" And by saying "fat," he

3 wanted to insult and humiliate the president of the Crisis Staff, and he

4 also wanted to make it known that he had no respect for anyone in the

5 authorities.

6 MR. WEINER: I'd object. I move to strike. It's one thing if he

7 wants to introduce the statement, which again we've never had any

8 discovery of. However, with regard to Lugar's mental thoughts, what if

9 any mental thoughts Lugar had, I move to strike those, because this --

10 this witness cannot answer as to the intentions of Lugar.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. He can only -- he can only tell us what

12 happened or what he heard.

13 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Tell me, please, Mr. Simic, other than these verbal remarks -- no,

15 rather, tell me, when did you first learn about the presence of the

16 volunteers in Samac?

17 A. I can't tell you exactly, because as the war went on, it became a

18 publicly-known fact. But it was probably a few days after the breakout of

19 hostilities.

20 Q. Now, tell me, in addition to these details, these verbal insults,

21 do you have any other examples that would illustrate their attitude -- the

22 attitude of Lugar and the others?

23 A. No, I can't give you any other examples because I did not have an

24 opportunity to see them directly.

25 Q. Did you hear anything about their conduct?

Page 13039

1 A. Yes. I heard all kinds of stories regarding some of them. I

2 heard that they had been aggressive and so on, that they harassed the

3 residents.

4 Q. Did you know which unit, which military formation they belonged

5 to? Were they also members of this special battalion? If you know,

6 please.

7 A. I don't know that. I don't know what their military association

8 was.

9 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have now Exhibit P75, please.

10 Q. [Interpretation] What can you tell us about this document,

11 Mr. Simic?

12 A. I can say that this was one of the documents that had been sent at

13 the time to various addresses in order to get assistance for the

14 municipality that was in war.

15 A. Dragan Djordjevic is mentioned in this memo. Who is this man?

16 His nickname is Vranjanac. Could you tell us who this man is.

17 A. One of the volunteers.

18 Q. At the time when this memo was drafted, did you have any other

19 details about Dragan Djordjevic? Did you know what his conduct was, what

20 steps he had taken, and so on?

21 A. I just knew that he was one of the volunteers and that he was some

22 kind of a commander and that's all.

23 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Mr. Usher.

24 Could we have now Exhibit P76.

25 Q. [Interpretation] Can you give us a brief comment on this document,

Page 13040

1 please.

2 A. I don't know this document. I suppose that this document was

3 prepared by the executive council and that later on it was prepared by the

4 professional staff of the Crisis Staff.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: The witness said he didn't know the document, and

6 then he's saying, I suppose that it was prepared -- so he doesn't know.

7 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. I will clarify that. Maybe he doesn't know

8 exactly this document, but maybe he's aware of the events or contents of

9 this document or basis for issuance of this document. So that was my

10 attempt to clarify.

11 Q. [Interpretation] Please tell me, did you hear something about the

12 content of this document? If you don't know, then just tell us so,

13 please.

14 A. I can't remember.

15 MR. PANTELIC: Please could we have Exhibit P77.

16 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, what do you know about this document?

17 Was this document signed?

18 A. I don't know this document, and I see that there's no signature

19 here, so I suppose that it was drafted in the public security station.

20 MR. WEINER: I'd object. Once again, he doesn't know the

21 document, and now he's trying to assume what happened to it. If he

22 doesn't know, it's not a matter for this witness.

23 MR. PANTELIC: But -- well, his assumption also -- I mean, he's an

24 educated man. He can --

25 JUDGE MUMBA: No, Mr. Pantelic. Either a witness knows about

Page 13041

1 something or he doesn't. That's all.

2 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have -- sorry, could we have --

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Let me make it clear to you, Mr. Simic. You are a

4 fact witness and you have come to the Tribunal to give evidence on matters

5 which you know [Realtime transcript read in error "you don't know"]. If

6 you don't know anything you say so, if you are shown a document you don't

7 know it, you don't know have to assume anything. We don't want

8 assumptions here.

9 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have Exhibit P78, please.

10 Q. [Interpretation] Please take a look at this document. But prior

11 to that, let me ask you this: Are you familiar with the term "SAO

12 Northern Bosnia"? Have you ever heard of it?

13 A. Yes, I am familiar with it.

14 Q. What do you know about it?

15 A. That's a territorial administrative unit which was joined by the

16 Samac municipality as well. The Crisis Staff did.

17 Q. Thank you. And are you familiar with the SAO Semberija and

18 Majevica?

19 A. No, I'm sorry, I am familiar with the SAO Semberija and Majevica,

20 not with the -- the other one. What did you say it was called, the first

21 one? Could you please rephrase your question, because I have an

22 impression that I mixed this up.

23 Q. No problem at all. I'm just waiting for the transcript. I want

24 to make sure that everything is recorded here. I asked you whether you

25 were familiar with the term "SAO Northern Bosnia."

Page 13042

1 A. No. I am not familiar with the SAO Northern Bosnia.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic.


4 JUDGE MUMBA: Let me just interrupt you. My interjection -- I

5 notice from the transcript that it said -- that referring to the witness,

6 "You came to the Tribunal to give evidence on matters you don't know." I

7 actually said, "You came to the Tribunal to give evidence on matters you

8 know about."

9 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Yes. Just for a clarification, yes, Your

10 Honour. Yes, you are right.

11 Q. [Interpretation] All right. So you have heard about the SAO

12 Semberija and Majevica. That's what you told us. Is that right?

13 A. It's not that I have heard about it, but from what I remember, the

14 Crisis Staff adopted a decision for the Samac municipality to join the SAO

15 Semberija and Majevica. That is my response to your question.

16 Q. Very well. Do you know something about the regulations and

17 certain duties of the Crisis Staff, or rather, Samac municipality with

18 respect to the SAO Semberija and Majevica?

19 A. Yes. There was a form of harmonisation of regulations, but that

20 was within the jurisdiction of the executive council. I don't think that

21 we ever adopted any decisions at the Crisis Staff sessions regarding this.

22 Q. Very well. Now, please take a look at this decision in front of

23 you. Tell us whether you have seen it before, whether you know something

24 about it. If you don't, then just please tell us so.

25 A. I have never seen this decision before.

Page 13043

1 Q. Thank you.

2 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Mr. Usher. You can get this document.

3 Could we have, please, document P -- Exhibit P81, please.

4 Q. [Interpretation] What can you tell us about this document,

5 Mr. Simic?

6 A. I'm not familiar with this document.

7 Q. Do you know whether the Crisis Staff ever issued any orders to

8 Mr. Simo Zaric?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have please now Exhibit P82.

12 Q. [Interpretation] Please take a look at this document. I think it

13 has two pages. Can you tell us something about it. But please take a

14 good look at it first.

15 A. I'm not familiar with this document.

16 MR. PANTELIC: Could we go into private session, please, for a

17 second.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Yes.

19 [Private session]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 13044

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [Open session]

6 JUDGE MUMBA: We are now in open session. Yes.

7 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, thank you.

8 Could we have now Exhibit P83, please.

9 Q. [Interpretation] Do you recognise this document, Mr. Simic?

10 A. Yes, I do.

11 Q. May we have your comments to it, please.

12 A. This decision is related to the appointment of the commission for

13 the exchange of detained and other persons, or rather, captured persons.

14 And Mr. Maslic, Simo Nikolic, and Mr. Miroslav Tadic were members. And

15 they were in charge of the exchange itself, prisoner exchange and the

16 exchange of others. From what I can remember from talking to the

17 president, they conducted the exchange of persons and for soldiers who had

18 been captured. They would have to receive the okay from the military

19 structures. As for people who had been detained by the police, those

20 detainees -- and other people who were detained, they would have to

21 receive permission from the police. For other citizens, I'm not sure of

22 the details but I can give you an example based on my own personal

23 experience.

24 My wife had parents in Croatia. Her parents were in Croatia. And

25 we asked Mr. Maslic together how we could get them out of Croatia, because

Page 13045

1 information had reached us that they wished to leave Croatia and live with

2 us. And he told us that the procedure was as follows: That he would

3 first of all have to talk to the Croatian side. Then the Croatian side

4 would have to ask the individuals, that is to say, her parents whether

5 they wanted to leave, whether they wanted to go and live elsewhere of

6 their own free will, and if they agreed, if they said yes, then the

7 exchange would take place. That's what I know about it.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think we could

10 clarify. He said, "talking to the president." So could we ask the

11 witness to specify which president. This is on page 30, line 12 onwards.

12 About the commission he said, "From what I can remember from talking to

13 the president," when talking of prisoner exchange. So could he specify

14 which president, what he meant. Thank you.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Mr. Pantelic can deal with that.

16 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Yes. Mr. Simic, you said "I can remember from talking to the

18 president." And then you went on to say that they conducted the exchange

19 of persons and soldiers. So which president were you thinking of?

20 A. Mr. Maslic. And in the document he is recorded as being the

21 president.

22 Q. As we're on this topic, this is a document of the War Presidency

23 dated the 2nd of October, 1992, is it not?

24 A. Yes, it is. That's right.

25 Q. Tell me, please, as a member of the Crisis Staff yourself, did you

Page 13046

1 happen to know in the period between April 1992 -- well, from April 1992

2 onwards, tell us what you know about the procedure for exchanges.

3 A. All I knew was that there was a commission in charge of these

4 exchanges and that the exchanges were conducted in the following manner:

5 For soldiers, permission had to be obtained from the military organs. For

6 civilian detainees, it was the police, the police organs who had to grant

7 permission. And if there were exchanges of citizens, then this would

8 follow the procedure I described a moment ago, which means that the person

9 to be exchanged would have to be asked if a citizen insisted on coming to

10 the territory of Republika Srpska or in leaving that territory, the person

11 would have to be asked.

12 Q. So this was a municipal commission. Do you know of any other

13 commissions at different levels which dealt with exchanges?

14 A. No, I do not.

15 Q. Tell me, please, did the Crisis Staff give its permission for

16 individuals to be exchanged? Was it included in that process directly?

17 Explain the role of the Crisis Staff, if it had a role to play within the

18 subject of exchanges.

19 A. The Crisis Staff didn't deal in exchanges except for nominating

20 and appointing the commission.

21 Q. What was the relationship between the commission and the Crisis

22 Staff?

23 A. The commission's president would come to inform the Crisis Staff

24 from time to time how things were going. They would look at some general

25 principles and things of that kind.

Page 13047

1 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you. Yes. Could we have Exhibit P85,

2 please.

3 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, tell us, please, whether you recognise

4 this decision.

5 A. I am familiar with it, yes.

6 MR. LAZAREVIC: Could it be placed on the ELMO for the benefit of

7 the clients.

8 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have it on the ELMO.

9 Your Honour, maybe we could deal with this exhibit after the

10 break, if that's an appropriate time for our break.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We shall take our break and continue at 16.15

12 hours.

13 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 4.16 p.m.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

16 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Thank you. Ms. Registrar, could we please

17 have Exhibit P85.

18 Q. [Interpretation] Before the break, Mr. Simic, we were discussing

19 this document, and you said that you have some personal knowledge about

20 the circumstances which led up to the drafting of this document and some

21 other important details.

22 A. What I can say is the following: At the time some civilians from

23 the Odzak municipality, civilians who were Serbs, arrived on the territory

24 of the Samac municipality. And it was necessary to ensure accommodation

25 for them. And this decision shows the manner in which this was done. So

Page 13048

1 those Serb citizens were to report to Kruskovo Polje, where accommodation

2 for them would be organised. This was no easy task because in Samac

3 municipality there were a large number of displaced persons there already,

4 refugees, people who had lost their homes and who had to be put up

5 somewhere, to find a safe haven for them.

6 Q. You said civilians of Serb ethnicity who had come into the Samac

7 municipality territory. So these people, Serbs from Odzak, what status

8 did they have and how did they come?

9 A. They were exchanged. That was the procedure. They were exchanged

10 and they came into the territory.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have now Exhibit P86, please -- no, no.

13 Actually, no, I do apologise. That's just an exhibit regarding the

14 appointment, so it is not directly related to -- I will try to speed up

15 things. P88, please.

16 Q. [Interpretation] Can you tell us anything about this document,

17 Mr. Simic.

18 A. This document doesn't come from the Crisis Staff, and I don't

19 remember it.

20 Q. Can you please explain this for us, if there is the designation

21 "the Crisis Staff of the municipality" and the seal there, how come you

22 have concluded that this document doesn't come from the Crisis Staff.

23 A. Well, I've concluded that based on the fact that this was done on

24 a computer-type printer, so the text was created on computer and then

25 printed on the printer. And from what I know, there were no such printers

Page 13049

1 in the professional staff of the Crisis Staff.

2 Q. Do you remember this topic? Was it discussed at the Crisis Staff?

3 There are some looting cases mentioned here and so on.

4 A. I don't remember these topics because these topics were associated

5 with the executive council.

6 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Thank you. Can we have now Exhibit P90. 90,

7 please.

8 Q. [Interpretation] Do you recognise this document? What can you

9 tell us about this document?

10 A. I do not remember this document.

11 Q. Did the Crisis Staff ever issue any kind of permits to civilians

12 in Samac municipality in order for them to be able to move freely about

13 and leave the town?

14 A. The Crisis Staff would occasionally issue a permit saying that

15 such and such individual could leave the town and move about with that

16 permit, and there would usually be a seal of the Crisis Staff on that

17 permit. And as those people -- how did these people pass through

18 checkpoints where permits were checked? I really don't know about that.

19 Q. All right. Could you please take a look at Article 2 and tell us

20 whether there were any cases of this nature taking place on the ground.

21 A. I think that permits were issued in the public security stations

22 an in relevant military agencies, rather than in any civilian organs.

23 Q. Can you please clarify something that you've just told us. In

24 which cases did the Crisis Staff issue permits?

25 A. Well, I'll explain this for you. For example, if a member of the

Page 13050

1 Crisis Staff or perhaps somebody who was part of some other service

2 agency, if that person wanted to go elsewhere, therefore leave the

3 territory of the municipality, then that person would be issued such a

4 permit. That would be sealed with the Crisis Staff seal and such

5 individuals could travel with such permits.

6 Q. Were these permits issued for people who needed to move about on

7 official business or for private purposes?

8 A. Those permits were issued by the head of the professional staff of

9 the Crisis Staff.

10 Q. Was that some kind of a travel order or something similar?

11 A. Yes, something of that nature.

12 Q. And did the Crisis Staff issue permits to people who were not of

13 Serb ethnicity?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Who was in charge of the Samac residents who were non-Serbs? I

16 mean, who was in charge of issuing permits to such residents?

17 A. I don't know about that.

18 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you. Could we have, please, Exhibit P91.

19 Q. [Interpretation] What can you tell us about this document?

20 A. This document looks familiar to me. The Crisis Staff passed this

21 decision, namely to freeze the work of political organisations and

22 political parties in order to prevent political conflicts which were

23 undesirable at the time. However, this Article 2 deals with arrests. I

24 know that this topic was not discussed, and I don't know how this issue

25 got into this decision. I think that this was awkwardly done by the

Page 13051

1 professional staff when they drafted the document. The Crisis Staff did

2 not have any mechanism of the enforcing nature that would be able to do

3 something like this.

4 Q. Now, please tell me this: At that time in the territory of

5 Republika Srpska and the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, was there

6 any activity of political parties taking place?

7 A. I don't think that there was.

8 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you. Could we have now Exhibit P92, please.

9 Q. [Interpretation] I will remind you and tell you that the previous

10 document was dated 12th of June, 1992. And now we can see the date 28th

11 of November, 1992. This document was issued by the War Presidency. Can

12 you comment to this decision.

13 A. Yes, I can. When I said that the previous decision practically

14 froze the activities of political parties, that didn't mean that any

15 activity of theirs was banned by that order. That means that the parties

16 could have a certain activity within their party bodies, and that is

17 regulated by this decision that is in front of me now, which says that the

18 parties could develop their own infrastructures and so on. And as far as

19 I can remember, this decision had to do with that type of activity;

20 namely, the Serb Democratic Party had to renovate and repair the old

21 destroyed building of the hotel, and the party was supposed to prevent

22 further decay of that building, and that was the purpose for passing this

23 decision.

24 Q. Did this decision in fact transfer the ownership of the old hotel

25 building to the SDS, or did this decision deal with something else?

Page 13052

1 A. As far as I remember, that was done later on by another decision

2 of the assembly. This decision did not delve into that. It simply

3 awarded temporary use of certain premises. It did not go into ownership

4 issues.

5 Q. So the building of the old hotel was owned by whom at the time?

6 A. It was socially owned. At the time it was socially owned.

7 Q. Socially owned or state owned; is that right?

8 A. Yes, that's right.

9 Q. Because it is very difficult to translate that term into English.

10 That category does not exist elsewhere. So could you please tell us what

11 would be the closest term to the concept of social property.

12 A. State property.

13 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Could we have, please, now Exhibit P93.

14 Q. [Interpretation] Could you comment on this decision dated 28th of

15 April.

16 A. Yes. This decision was adopted in order to try and prevent

17 disorder in the town that was caused by various cafes and catering

18 facilities that served liquor. At the time there was a lot of disorder, a

19 lot of shooting, wounding incidents, and it was believed that one of the

20 reasons for that was the fact that alcohol was served.

21 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have, please, now Exhibit P94.

22 Q. [Interpretation] This is not an important document; however, it

23 caused some debate and some questions in the past, so I would like to ask

24 you to comment on this document. Do you perhaps remember this decision?

25 And if so, can you tell us what was its objective, this decision or this

Page 13053

1 certificate

2 A. This kind of a certificate could have been issued by the

3 professional staff of the Crisis Staff.

4 Q. Well, can you just tell us, what is your interpretation of this

5 certificate?

6 MR. WEINER: I'd object, Your Honour. It's --


8 MR. WEINER: It's a simple cut-and-dry certificate. What's he

9 going to interpret or explain?

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe it's just a question of language. Maybe he

11 can say what he knows about it. But not in --

12 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Simple as that. Because we heard certain

13 interpretations in previous proceedings which is completely contrary to

14 the -- I mean, not in Defence case but, rather, in the Prosecution case.

15 So I'm obliged to clarify this issue.

16 Q. [Interpretation] Yes. Please go ahead and explain that for us.

17 A. I suppose that this man wanted to transport his household goods

18 from his parents' house to his own house. And in order to do so, he

19 needed a certificate.

20 Q. What is the ethnicity of the persons mentioned in the certificate?

21 A. Both of these persons mentioned here are Serbs.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have, please, now Exhibit P95, please.

24 Q. [Interpretation] Can you give us any comments regarding this

25 document?

Page 13054

1 A. I'm not familiar with this decision because the Crisis Staff did

2 not have its own treasury where funds could be kept. I presume this was

3 something that had been done in the executive council. This is a

4 nonsense, or at least the first article is, where it says, "Delivered to

5 the Crisis Staff of the Serb Municipality of Samac."

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have, please, now Exhibit P96.

8 Q. [Interpretation] In this meantime, let me ask you this: Did the

9 Crisis Staff of Samac Municipality on any occasion engage persons to send

10 weapons or people to the municipality? Did it have commissioners in

11 charge of that?

12 A. The Crisis Staff was never involved in those kinds of affairs.

13 Q. Please take a look at this document and tell us what it

14 represents, or rather, tell us whether you are familiar with it.

15 A. This, again, is one of the documents that could have been issued

16 by somebody from the professional staff to those people who were willing

17 to assist with fund-raising, procuring of medications, and so on.

18 However, I do not exclude the possibility that there could have been some

19 abuses of these types of documents and that somebody could have used this

20 document to collect money and funds elsewhere in the world for their own

21 purposes.

22 Q. Please take a look at paragraph 2 of this authorisation. It

23 mentions trained people, sending of weapons and so on. Was there any talk

24 of such activities?

25 A. No. The Crisis Staff was never involved in such activities, nor

Page 13055

1 did it have organs and services that dealt with such issues.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Please could we have now Exhibit P98.

4 Q. [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic, please go ahead. Do you know

5 this document?

6 A. Based on the heading or the introductory part, one can conclude

7 that this is a letter. Therefore, a written form of communication. At

8 the time the Crisis Staff contacted different entities which it believed

9 would be able to assist the imprisoned Serbs in the territory of Odzak

10 municipality; therefore in Donja Dubica, Crnjak, Struke, Lipik, and Novi

11 Grad. And there were between three and a half thousand and four thousand

12 of them there. One of the letters, this one, to the Federal Secretariat

13 for People's Defence.

14 Q. Regarding these events in Odzak municipality in April and May of

15 1992, what did the Crisis Staff of Samac municipality do regarding this?

16 What activities did you and other members of the Crisis Staff undertake

17 regarding this in addition to writing letters?

18 A. In addition to sending letters, appeals, and other ways of

19 engaging the public, the Crisis Staff tried to engage the public in

20 Yugoslavia as well.

21 Q. No, I really meant the practical steps. What practical steps were

22 taken? What contacts did they establish with the other side, and so on?

23 What can you tell us about that?

24 A. I think that at the time a coordination body was established

25 comprising of people that would be able to establish contact with the?

Page 13056

1 People over there and try and get some assistance.

2 Q. Well, can you give us any details what was done? You were in the

3 field of information, so you should be able to give us more details

4 regarding this. We are interested in that period of time it's very

5 important to us.

6 A. As I've just told you, those people, some 3500 to 4.000 of them

7 were in prison there, and many of them had relatives in Samac municipality

8 and in other places, and these relatives tried to help the imprisoned

9 people. It was difficult to do, and it was a very difficult process.

10 That agony lasted all the way up until the first exchanges started, and

11 they were quite a relief to the population. All of these appeals and

12 letters that were sent, everything that was done by the Crisis Staff and

13 other organs of civilian authorities, the Red Cross and so on, none of it

14 was fruitful for a long period of time, and it was only later that they

15 managed to ensure that people started arriving into Samac municipality,

16 naturally very happy that they were able to leave and unite with their

17 families.

18 Q. When was that approximately?

19 A. It was in the month of May.

20 Q. Tell me who made up this coordinating body.

21 A. Well, we decided to do it this way, and we thought that was the

22 best way of doing it: For us to ensure contact with the people, that body

23 should be made up, we thought, of people from -- from local people who

24 knew the situation, who knew the families, who knew the individuals, and

25 who would be able to compile a list of persons who found themselves there.

Page 13057

1 And that is why the members were Mr. Miroslav Tadic, Mr. Simo Zaric, and

2 Mr. Bozo Ninkovic, who were from the area. Mr. Tadic was born in Novi

3 Grad. For example, Mr. Simo Zaric was born in Crnjak. And Mr. Bozo

4 Ninkovic was a native of Donja Dubica, that village, the village in the

5 Odzak municipality. And then they continued these activities.

6 Q. Was the Crisis Staff involved in contacts with any internal

7 organisations perhaps at that period of time? What can you tell us about

8 that?

9 A. Yes. I think that at one of the meetings of the Crisis Staff a

10 report was presented to show that people from the International Red Cross

11 had engaged in that activity, that they cooperated with the people from

12 the coordinating body and that in that sense they had some joint

13 solutions. And they organised, I think, a joint exchange programme and

14 the exchange took place - took place, yes, that's a better word - on the

15 Bosna River. It is a river which separates the municipalities of Odzak

16 and Samac. I think in that first exchange in which the International Red

17 Cross participated, about 100 persons were exchanged, Serb civilians, and

18 people captured on the Odzak municipality territory. And we all remember

19 that because it was something that reverberated and was publicly known. I

20 don't remember anything else.

21 Q. What was done at a municipal level with respect to resolving

22 humanitarian issues, problems of accommodation for those people, in the

23 month of May, if I'm right?

24 A. Well, at that time the civilian protection or civil defence

25 headquarters had been set up and was functioning, and they saw to the

Page 13058

1 accommodation of refugees and displaced persons who had been exchanged in

2 the -- from the Odzak municipality and other areas as well, and this

3 service had a heavy burden to bear. They had a very difficult job to do

4 because there was an influx of people coming into the territory of Samac

5 municipality and they had been left without their houses. They had left

6 their property behind. They had no means of livelihood. They were

7 usually separated from their families. And sometimes these people were

8 just not able to find their way and live a normal life because it was

9 difficult to ensure food supplies and everything that was needed for a

10 normal life. And this was one of the most serious problems and difficult

11 periods that we faced, because there were many, many people coming into

12 the Samac municipality who were left without the basic means of livelihood

13 and survival.

14 Q. Solving these humanitarian problems for the Serb refugees from the

15 Odzak municipality when they arrived in Samac, did this jeopardise and

16 threaten certain rights of the non-Serb inhabitants in Samac in any way?

17 Could you explain to us how this was done. Were the non-Serbs evicted,

18 for example, from their homes for these Serbs to take up accommodation

19 there? Did they take over their flats, or what happened? What did you do

20 in the Crisis Staff?

21 A. I don't have any more detailed information about this because the

22 service for accommodation within the municipality was in charge of this

23 matter. But as far as I know, there were no human rights violations.

24 Human rights were not curtailed and the members of other ethnic groups

25 were not in jeopardy at all.

Page 13059

1 Q. And as we're on the subject, were you a witness -- or rather, did

2 you see that the non-Serb population in Samac in 1992/1993, did you see

3 them wearing white bands on their sleeves when they moved around town

4 perhaps?

5 A. White bands you say?

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. No, I didn't see any white bands or ribbons. Nobody had any white

8 bands. But I can say that this was a sort of propaganda ploy.

9 Q. What do you mean by that?

10 A. Well, a journalist, Mr. Mato Krajinovic was his name, launched a

11 piece of information along those lines over the radio station.

12 Q. When?

13 A. In 1992, sometime in June. And I am deeply convinced that this

14 was imported, this information, and that the source was his propaganda.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic.

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have a criticism to

17 make of the translation. When he mentioned accommodation for the

18 refugees, and it is line 44, page 21, he said, "I don't know anything much

19 about that because the Secretariat for Communal Matters." Where it says

20 "accommodation service" here, perhaps we could clarify that point.

21 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Yes. When you said that the communal services or the secretariat

23 was in charge of this, what were you thinking about?

24 A. The housing and communal department in the municipality. That's

25 what I had in mind. And I assume that it was that department who was in

Page 13060

1 charge of seeing to affairs of this kind.

2 Q. Very well. Let's get back to our white bands or ribbons. Did you

3 or the Crisis Staff or some third party ever issue orders to Radio Samac

4 to broadcast the order for non-Serbs to wear these white bands or ribbons?

5 A. The Crisis Staff never made any such decision, nor did it issue

6 orders to Radio Samac to broadcast anything of that nature.

7 Q. As you were linked to the information department, do you perhaps

8 know whether any third party issued orders to the radio to broadcast this?

9 A. No service or organ of any kind, as far as I know, issued any such

10 orders or gave any such instructions.

11 Q. According to what you know, did Radio Samac broadcast an order by

12 the Public Security Station on banning any rallies of persons -- more than

13 three persons in Samac?

14 A. No, Radio Samac never broadcast anybody's orders, and it never

15 broadcast any information or news of that kind at all.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Could we have, please, Exhibit 100 -- P100.

18 Excuse me, my mistake. P99.

19 Q. [Interpretation] You've already spoken about a series of letters.

20 We're not going to make any more comments because I think you've explained

21 it sufficiently. But tell me, is this -- are you familiar with this

22 document?

23 A. Yes, I am.

24 Q. Is this a document along the lines of the letters and appeals

25 through which you addressed the public and international agencies?

Page 13061

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have P100 [Realtime transcript read in

4 error "P10"], please.

5 Q. [Interpretation] We talked about this subject. What can you tell

6 me about this.

7 MR. PANTELIC: I have to interrupt you. Could we have P100.

8 Because in transcript it's only P10, so just for clarification of the

9 transcript.

10 Q. [Interpretation] Please continue, sir.

11 A. The Samac municipality pursuant to this decision, Semberija and

12 Majevica -- or rather, this decision was for practical reasons. Samac was

13 completely surrounded. It was encircled, and there was no way in which it

14 could have been linked into a territorial hole with the municipalities of

15 Odzak, Orasje.

16 Q. What do you mean by "surrounded," "encircled"?

17 A. The Samac municipality is located -- it looks like a wedge and

18 comes out onto the River Sava. And through the River Sava -- across the

19 river is the Republic of Croatia. And on the two flanks are the

20 municipalities of Odzak and Orasje.

21 Q. That's a geographical explanation, but let's be more practical,

22 Mr. Simic. We're talking about May 1992. And I'm interested to know who

23 surrounded the Samac municipality. Give us some names, institutions, or

24 whatever. Not geography. We don't want geography at this point.

25 A. Across the River Sava was the Croatian army, and almost every

Page 13062

1 day - because there was nobody else who could have shelled the area - it

2 was the Croatian army that shelled the town on a daily basis, the town and

3 the surrounding villages.

4 Q. Well, move south and tell us what other forces were -- what was

5 around Samac.

6 A. It was the Odzak municipality, the HVO, the Croatian HVO, the

7 Croatian -- I can't remember what the HVO stood for.

8 Q. Wasn't it the Croatian Defence Council?

9 A. Yes, it was. That's right. That's it, the Croatian Defence

10 Council. Members of the HVO were in Orasje as well, the other side.

11 Q. And where is Orasje in relation to Samac?

12 A. East, to the east.

13 Q. North, south, east, or west?

14 A. East.

15 Q. And what was to the south?

16 A. To the south was the municipality of Gradacac, which is where the

17 allied forces of the HVO and Muslims launched their operations, armed

18 forces. And I have to say --

19 Q. And how long was Samac under siege for?

20 A. Samac was completely under siege, completely encircled --

21 Q. I was just asking for how long. Up until what date?

22 A. Until July.

23 Q. Of what year?

24 A. 1992.

25 Q. And what happened then?

Page 13063

1 A. The units of the 1st Krajina Corps and the 2nd Posavina Infantry

2 Brigade made this military break-through and the municipality of Samac was

3 linked as a result to the Krajina municipalities from the Banja Luka

4 region to the west, and on the east with Semberija and Majevica. And that

5 was the corridor that was mentioned.

6 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have, please, P101, please.

7 Q. [Interpretation] As we're going to take a look at this next

8 document, which is linked to SAO Majevica. In May 1992 before the

9 corridor, what was the reason for the municipality to be linked up with

10 this corridor?

11 A. The reasons were practical reasons. They were to link up the

12 administration and the various institutions and to form one whole, one

13 entity. They were not able to exist separately. They had to be linked

14 together.

15 Q. I understand. But hierarchically speaking, if we look at

16 hierarchy, we know that the Bosanski Samac municipality was at one level.

17 What was the next level up? Could you explain the hierarchy.

18 A. The next step up the ladder was the SAO. This was a kind of

19 canton. And then we come to the state level.

20 Q. For the municipal organs, were the decisions of SAO Semberija and

21 Majevica binding upon them?

22 A. They were not binding upon the municipal orders of the SAO

23 Semberija and Majevica.

24 Q. What about the republican organs?

25 A. They were. They were binding, which means that this was some sort

Page 13064

1 of shaky system.

2 For example, if there was a patient who needed medical attention

3 in Samac and had to be treated in Bijeljina, we had a practical problem if

4 we didn't have an administrative solution to deal with the problem.

5 Q. All right. Now, about this decision: Do you recognise it?

6 A. Yes, I'm familiar with it.

7 Q. I am particularly interested in Article 2. Can you comment on it,

8 please.

9 A. I think that I didn't really see this article practically

10 implemented either by the Crisis Staff or in the municipality itself. I

11 think it was put in there for some formal reasons.

12 Q. Mr. Simic, the voting procedure of the Crisis Staff, I suppose,

13 was such that everybody had -- every member had one vote. Is that right,

14 or was there different voting procedure?

15 A. I think that I've already explained that. Since the president of

16 the Crisis Staff wanted to include always a large number of people in the

17 debate and in the decision-making, then very often there was no voting

18 taking place at all. Positions were harmonised and then a sort of

19 consensus was reached, although sometimes we did vote on issues.

20 Q. Were there any cases where, for example, a proposal by Blagoje

21 Simic was outvoted in voting procedure, or did he have some kind of an

22 authority?

23 A. No. If his proposal was outvoted, he had to uphold the results of

24 the vote.

25 Q. Do you remember any cases where his proposals were outvoted?

Page 13065

1 A. I can't remember a specific example, but I suppose that there were

2 such cases.

3 Q. Speaking of that, you were an assemblyman in the assembly and you

4 know a lot about parliament and parliamentary issues. What is the role of

5 the president of the assembly? What are his duties, and what is his real

6 power?

7 A. I have to correct you. I was an assemblyman in the assembly. I

8 was not a deputy in the state parliament. And I will answer your

9 question.

10 You would like to know what are the authorities of the president

11 of the assembly.

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. To convene sessions of the municipal assembly; to propose agendas;

14 to ensure that items are debated; to ensure that after a decision is

15 passed, the decision is handed over to the professional staff for them to

16 complete their task and so on.

17 Q. Is the president's vote stronger than a vote of any other

18 assemblyman?

19 A. No. And as to the weight of that vote, that's a different issue.

20 MR. PANTELIC: Exhibit P102, please.

21 Q. [Interpretation] My colleagues wanted me to clarify something.

22 When you spoke about the weight of the president's vote, what were you

23 trying to say. If an issue was voted on, then what did your answer relate

24 to?

25 A. I think that this comment of mine was probably unnecessary under

Page 13066

1 the circumstances. What I was trying to say was that each vote was just a

2 single vote. And even if the president was outvoted, the will of the

3 majority was upheld. And my comment was meant to convey that if somebody

4 had an authority, not necessarily president of the assembly but somebody

5 else, then it might have influenced the outcome of the vote.

6 Q. All right. Let's be more specific. What authority does president

7 of the have?

8 A. The authority of the municipal assembly is quite limited because

9 the municipality deals with the utilities and the infrastructure, with

10 things that have to do with the everyday life of the residents. It does

11 not deal with different issues. And in that respect, its influence is

12 quite limited. I hope that this is what you wanted me to explain.

13 Q. All right. Well, could you make a comparison between the

14 president of the executive council and this president. How can you --

15 what kind of a correlation can you make there? How can you describe this?

16 A. I can describe it in the following terms --

17 Q. My question did not relate to the correlation. I wanted you to

18 make a comparison.

19 A. Where we come from - and I think this applies to other places as

20 well - the executive branch has more authority for a simple reason, that

21 it has at its disposal financial means and other types of power, so that

22 the executive branch was always much more powerful, if I can put it that

23 way.

24 Q. Please take a look at this document. What can you tell us about

25 it?

Page 13067

1 A. I can tell you the following: This document was prepared by the

2 executive council. And as such, it was ratified by the Crisis Staff. I

3 really couldn't tell you anything about the items mentioned in this

4 document because this is something that had been done by the executive

5 council, by the people who are professionals in that particular field.

6 Q. All right. But based on what you know, were there any cases of

7 confiscation or seizure of property of some individuals due to tax evasion

8 by those individuals?

9 A. I don't know of any such cases where property was confiscated.

10 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you. Could we have now Exhibit P105, please.

11 Q. [Interpretation] This is another document. On page 3 we can see

12 that it is dated 15th of December, 1992. Do you know anything about this

13 document?

14 A. I don't. I've never seen this document.

15 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have, please, now Exhibit P106.

16 Q. [Interpretation] Tell us something about this document, if you

17 know, please.

18 A. This decision is familiar to me. It was passed at the time

19 when --

20 Q. Could you please put it on the ELMO so that our clients can see

21 the document as well. And then if you don't mind, you can also look at it

22 there.

23 A. This decision abolished Crisis Staffs in local communes and

24 instead of them appointed commissioners; namely, at that time it was

25 believed that a large number of people was in the Crisis Staffs in local

Page 13068

1 communes when there was a large need for personnel in the military and

2 there was a work obligation in existence. And as a result of that, these

3 Crisis Staffs were abolished because they were at the level of local

4 communes.

5 Q. And what was the objective of those Crisis Staffs in local

6 communes?

7 A. The same as in municipalities. They were meant to act in

8 extraordinary circumstances, to help after the shelling and wounding of

9 the population, to ensure that life went on in local communes, to house

10 refugees, to assist people with health problems, and so on. Samac at the

11 time faced a lot of difficult problematic situations. There were about 50

12 patients with a kidney condition who needed to undergo haemodialysis twice

13 a week. And as a result of that, it was difficult to transport them, to

14 secure fuel for that, to find dialysis machines, and so on. I don't want

15 to go into the strictly professional part of this matter, but I know that

16 people who had to undergo dialysis three times a week were only able to do

17 it twice a week because there was an insufficient number of dialysis

18 machines.

19 Q. Can you tell us what was the ethnicity of those patients.

20 A. The majority of them were Serbs, but there was also Muslims and

21 Croats.

22 Q. All right. Now, regarding the Crisis Staffs in local communes,

23 can you tell us what other elements constituted a municipality.

24 A. A municipality had an executive council --

25 Q. No, that's not what I meant. Let's take a look at the territory

Page 13069

1 of a municipality. Can you tell us what does a municipality consist of in

2 a territorial sense. What are lower-level units of it?

3 A. There were local communes -- actually, every village was a local

4 commune, and Samac municipality had 20 such local communes with some

5 30.000 residents. The town itself had 5.000 residents.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MR. PANTELIC: Exhibit P [Previous interpretation continues] ...

8 Please.

9 MR. WEINER: Excuse me. Could you repeat the number.

10 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. P107.

11 MR. WEINER: It wasn't reflected on the screen, Your Honour.

12 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, my friend.

13 Q. [Interpretation] We're not going to spend too much time on this

14 document, but tell me whether you're familiar with it and what was the

15 purpose of it.

16 A. The purpose was to appoint individuals who would perform this

17 function of commissioner and that they should report back and be

18 responsible to the Crisis Staff and the executive board.

19 Q. I assume that this followed on from when the system was

20 simplified, and you explained the reasons for the abolishment of the other

21 organs.

22 MR. PANTELIC: -- P108, please.

23 Q. [Interpretation] Tell me something about this document.

24 A. Well, I am aware of the decision. It's familiar to me. But I'm

25 not familiar with the preamble. This decision was made so that the town

Page 13070

1 of Bosanski Samac should be referred to and the name of the town be just

2 Samac. And the explanation given was that there is a town called

3 Slavonski Samac and there was the Croatian municipality of Bosanski Samac,

4 so the reason why this decision was taken was to make the distinction

5 between these, to differentiate between this and the others. And they

6 thought why not give the town the name of Samac, just Samac, because it

7 was very difficult to find anybody who actually called it Bosanski Samac.

8 Everybody would just simply say Samac for the name of the town.

9 Q. You mentioned the municipality -- the Croatian municipality, the

10 opstina of Bosanski Samac. Was that a separate municipality or was it

11 something else? Could you explain what you mean.

12 A. Well, Bosanski Samac -- this Bosanski Samac was formed by the

13 Croats in the part of the territory of Samac municipality which was not

14 under the control of the Serb forces but the Croatian forces, and it

15 incorporated several villages, Domaljevac, Grebnice, Prud, Bazik.

16 Q. Did the Serb forces ever occupy that part of the municipality

17 which was inhabited by the Croats?

18 A. No, no. The Croatian authorities were there all the time.

19 Q. All right. Well, population-wise, inhabitant-wise, let's say from

20 March 1992. Not April. I'm saying March specifically. Let's take the

21 month of March 1992 and then right up to the present day. The inhabitants

22 on the territory of Croatian Bosanski Samac, are those people still there?

23 Are they still living there? Or were they on Serb territory at one point?

24 Could you explain that to me.

25 A. Citizens who were of Croatian ethnicity in the municipality or

Page 13071

1 villages of Domaljevac, Grebnice, Bazik, Prud, which means the villages

2 which at one time belonged to the municipality of Bosanski Samac,

3 continued to -- that is to say, the population continued to live there and

4 they had their own administrative units, and it was the Croatian

5 municipality of Bosanski Samac, and the headquarters were in Domaljevac.

6 So that is one of the municipalities within the Orasje canton.

7 Q. And to whom does the Orasje canton belong?

8 A. It belongs to the BH Federation.

9 Q. And what is BH and the BH Federation?

10 A. It is the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

11 Q. And what is that?

12 A. It is one of the entities of the state of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

13 MR. PANTELIC: -- P109, please.

14 Q. [Interpretation] What can you tell us about this document, please?

15 A. This document speaks of the appointment of the president of the

16 Crisis Staff. He was appointed on the 19th of April, 1992.

17 Q. But the date is the 17th of April on that document.

18 A. I think I've already explained that, that it was for purposes of

19 the work booklets and linking up the work periods.

20 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you. Could we have document P110 and 111,

21 please.

22 Q. [Interpretation] Just briefly, please, Mr. Simic. Let's not waste

23 too much time on these less-important documents. Tell me, please, do you

24 know anything about these two documents? Look at both of them, please. I

25 can see that the decision was made by the Crisis Staff.

Page 13072

1 A. I didn't attend this Crisis Staff meeting. I wasn't there on that

2 particular day. But I do know that after the meeting the president of the

3 Crisis Staff, Blagoje Simic, was very unhappy. He didn't like the

4 outcome, the election -- the choice of president or vice-president of the

5 executive council. And as I learnt, his candidate was Mr. Mirko Lukic.

6 I, too, considered that -- I shared his opinion. I thought that that

7 would be a better option because of nepotism.

8 Q. What do you mean by that? Could you explain that to me.

9 A. Well, I think that that is why the president of the Crisis Staff

10 didn't think it was a good idea to have people with the same surnames

11 holding high-level positions.

12 MR. WEINER: Objection, Your Honour.


14 MR. WEINER: He says "I think." Is he speculating, or is that a

15 comment that he received directly from Blagoje Simic? If it's a comment

16 from discussions with Blagoje Simic, I have no problem with that and I

17 withdraw the objection. But if it's just his speculation, I think it

18 should be stricken.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

20 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour.

21 Q. [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Simic. Could you explain that.

22 A. I heard it from Blagoje Simic.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Could we have, please, Exhibit P112.

25 Q. [Interpretation] Can you tell us something about this decision?

Page 13073

1 A. The decision was prepared by the executive council and I cannot

2 comment.

3 Q. But do you remember that it was discussed and then adopted at the

4 Crisis Staff meeting?

5 A. I just can't seem to remember.

6 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have Exhibit P113, please.

7 Q. [Interpretation] What can you tell us about this decision?

8 A. This is not a decision.

9 Q. I apologise, a document.

10 A. It is an authorisation signed by Mr. Mitar Mitrovic, who was the

11 secretary, and it relates to the granting of authorisation to Mr. Stevan

12 Todorovic -- or it authorises Stevan Todorovic to represent the Serb

13 Municipality of Bosanski Samac at an assembly of the Serbian Republic of

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina which would be held beginning with the 25th of July,

15 1992 until the end of work.

16 Q. I apologise for interrupting you, but we're dealing with the War

17 Presidency here, are we? And you were a member of it, were you?

18 A. Yes, that's right. This is the War Presidency.

19 Q. Tell me one more thing, please: This authorisation in this form,

20 was it discussed at the meeting of the War Presidency?

21 A. That's just what I was about to say. This authorisation was

22 signed by Mr. Mitar Mitrovic, which means that he wrote it too. And the

23 explanation he gives is that Mr. Todorovic insisted and tried to convince

24 him and kept pestering him to let him go there, and he said he was not

25 going to attend the assembly but just going there for a little bit.

Page 13074

1 Mr. Todorovic liked to amuse himself, and so he wanted to take a trip but

2 said he wouldn't actually be taking part in the work of the assembly, and

3 in fact he couldn't have taken part in the work of the assembly. He could

4 have just perhaps been there as an observer, in the capacity of an

5 observer or some other capacity, but not as a participant. That wasn't

6 his status. He couldn't take part as a deputy.

7 Q. When you say "he," do you mean Stevan Todorovic?

8 A. Yes, that's right. I mean Stevan Todorovic.

9 Q. All right. Thank you. And what about Blagoje Simic? Was Blagoje

10 Simic able to represent the municipal assembly at the popular assembly

11 meeting?

12 A. He was not able to representative -- it either because Mr. Blagoje

13 Simic likewise was not a deputy of the popular Assembly of Republika

14 Srpska, and there was no grounds for him to participant except as a guest

15 or observer or some such status.

16 Q. And can you remember and tell us -- or do you know whether anybody

17 from the region of the Samac municipality was a member of parliament of

18 the Republika Srpska?

19 A. Yes. Mr. Mirko Jovanovic was a member of the parliament of

20 Republika Srpska, and he became a member of the People's Assembly or

21 parliament after the death of a deputy by the name of Bjelosevic from

22 Derventa. Mr. Jovanovic was next to him on the list, right after him on

23 the list of the SDS party, and it was by that token that he became a

24 deputy in the parliament of Republika Srpska.

25 Q. Could you tell us when that was?

Page 13075

1 A. I can't say exactly. I can't remember. But it was probably as

2 soon as the first assembly was convened, because I do know that one of the

3 deputies, Mr. Bjelosevic, was killed right at the beginning of the war.

4 He was a colleague of mine. He was also a professor, a teacher of the

5 Serbo-Croatian language, and I knew him personally, so that I know when he

6 was killed.

7 Q. Well, could you be a bit more specific. Can you give us a month,

8 a year? Give me the year. You said the beginning of the war, but it's

9 not specific enough.

10 A. April or May 1992.

11 Q. Thank you. Now tell me, please, the reason stated here, the

12 reason given -- or rather, this authorisation makes mention of the fact

13 that Blagoje Simic was undergoing hospital treatment. In the period after

14 July, did he attend the meetings of the War Presidency, and how frequent

15 were the meetings? How often were they held?

16 A. I know that at the time he didn't come. He didn't attend the

17 sessions for a long time of period. At that time, the sessions of the

18 Crisis Staff were infrequent, and if a document needed to be issued or

19 something like that, then that was carried out by the professional staff.

20 So the work of the Crisis Staff was -- how shall I put it? -- not very

21 active.

22 Q. We have to make a tiny correction. You are speaking of the Crisis

23 Staff, are you? That's a bit confusing to me, because we see the date of

24 the 25th of July and I am asking you about the time from that date

25 onwards. What did you have in mind?

Page 13076

1 A. I had in mind the War Presidency, of course. However, ten years

2 have passed and my memory is not as fresh as it used to be, so sometimes

3 it's difficult for me to distinguish between these two terms.

4 Q. We have another question before the break, but if you're tired,

5 just let us know and we can make a break at any time. When you compare

6 the sessions of the Crisis Staff from April 1992 to July of 1992 with the

7 sessions of the War Presidency from July of 1992 until the end of that

8 year, what kind of a conclusion can you make?

9 A. I can say that the work of the Crisis Staff was much more dynamic

10 and active than that of the War Presidency.

11 Q. Could you elaborate on that. Do you mean in terms of the number

12 of sessions or what?

13 A. The number of sessions, the scope of issues, and so on.

14 Q. And why did you conclude that?

15 A. Because the situation was such. When the War Presidency was

16 established, the situation had become more normal and more reasonable.

17 The life was already better organised.

18 Q. Which organs became more involved?

19 A. Regular organs. New institutions were formed --

20 Q. Now, let's be more specific. Which organs at the level of Samac

21 municipality started taking over work?

22 A. They started preparing the session of the Municipal Assembly of

23 Samac, which was held in January 1993 for the first time. However, the

24 executive council was working in full composition, as were other

25 institutions, and in one word the life became more normal.

Page 13077

1 Q. Can you tell me which segments comprised the executive council?

2 Can you tell us which organs were in it?

3 A. It had several departments that -- in addition to the president of

4 the executive council, we had Secretary for Economy, Secretary for Housing

5 and Utilities, Secretary for Education and Culture, Secretary for General

6 Administration.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, I think it's maybe an appropriate time

9 for our break.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We'll take our break and continue at 18.05

11 hours.

12 --- Recess taken at 5.45 p.m.

13 --- On resuming at 6.06 p.m.

14 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

16 MR. PANTELIC: We just received -- I mean, this afternoon, prior

17 to the session, the Prosecution response to our motion in respect to Rule

18 71. And if the Trial Chamber is of the opinion that maybe the Defence

19 could in five minutes maybe today give certain clarifications. It's not a

20 classical reply, but maybe it would be helpful for the Trial Chamber in

21 order to rule on this issue of Rule 71. It might be useful. I mean, with

22 your permission to -- if we can address the Trial Chamber on several

23 matters.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. How long do you think you have to go

25 with the witness? When are you finishing?

Page 13078

1 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, I have -- I have to comment with him

2 around 20 documents and some other issues and events. I believe that I

3 would finish him next sitting day very shortly. It will be far less

4 than -- provided that -- than the estimated time. I was of the opinion

5 that it was -- it would be 10 hours. But it will be less than 10 hours,

6 so I am -- in terms of the consumption of time, I think it would be -- it

7 would be a certain --

8 JUDGE MUMBA: So maybe you'll go ahead with the witness and then

9 the last 10 minutes?

10 MR. PANTELIC: The last 10 minutes maybe would be fine, Your

11 Honour. Yes.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.


14 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, before the break, we touched upon

15 several topics. You gave us your answers. Now, tell me, please, did the

16 War Presidency sometime in the fall of 1992 send a letter to the Ministry

17 of the Interior of Serbia regarding the repeated arrival of volunteers

18 from Serbia to the Samac municipality? Was this discussed at the sessions

19 of the War Presidency and what do you know about this?

20 A. The War Presidency was never involved in the issues of military

21 organisations and military issues in general, so nothing of that nature

22 was ever discussed at the War Presidency.

23 Q. What do you know about the activities of the Crisis Staff from May

24 to June 1992 regarding the appointment -- nomination and appointment of

25 the commander of the 2nd Posavina Brigade?

Page 13079

1 A. I am not aware that anybody in the Crisis Staff was involved in

2 that.

3 Q. Was it discussed at the sessions of the Crisis Staff perhaps?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Thank you. Now, tell me, please, what do you know about the

6 incident linked to the closing of the corridor in the autumn of 1992, from

7 October to December of 1992?

8 A. I know very little about that event. The only thing that I do

9 know is that there was some kind of a conflict between military and

10 civilian authorities and that the closing of the corridor was the result

11 of that conflict. Now, as to details, I don't know anything regarding

12 that.

13 Q. All right. But do you know who closed off the corridor?

14 A. I'm not aware of that, no.

15 Q. What do you know about the conflict between military and civilian

16 authorities that you have mentioned? Do you have any knowledge about

17 that?

18 A. I know that throughout the war that conflict continuously went on,

19 the conflict between the military and civilian authorities. I know that

20 in September of 1993 that conflict culminated in Banja Luka and resulted

21 in the situation in which the military authorities took over the entire

22 town. Karadzic and Mladic had a conflict between them. One was the

23 representative of the civilian authorities, and the other represented

24 military authorities, and this issue was covered in the media as well.

25 These two components clashed in wartime, and there was some kind of a

Page 13080

1 tension between civilian and military authorities.

2 Q. All right. You mentioned Banja Luka and 1993, and I assume

3 that's --

4 A. September 1993. This is a well-known event.

5 Q. Yes. But that was at a higher level, at the level of the republic

6 and level of high authorities; isn't that right?

7 A. Yes, that was at the highest level.

8 Q. Thank you. Thank you. That was not our topic. I am interested

9 in the municipal level at the end of 1992. You mentioned that there was a

10 conflict there as well. What do you know about that?

11 A. I know that there were certain --

12 Q. Could you be more specific.

13 A. There was a letter mentioned. I did not have occasion to read the

14 letter. It was sent by the command of the 2nd Posavina Infantry Brigade

15 and in it the army criticised the civilian authorities. However, I

16 couldn't go into details of that letter because I didn't have occasion to

17 see it.

18 Q. Tell me, please, do you know about the arrest of Milan Simic and

19 Stevan Todorovic in that period of time?

20 A. Yes. In that very period they were arrested. I don't know the

21 reasons for their arrest, but it had to do with the conflict between

22 military and civilian authorities.

23 Q. How was that problem finally resolved, and what was the outcome,

24 if you know?

25 A. I don't know what was the outcome or what was the way in which it

Page 13081

1 was resolved. I don't know what was behind it either. I don't know what

2 it was all about. I have no information regarding that. I know that

3 after that there followed arrests of certain volunteers from the 2nd

4 Posavina Infantry Brigade and that they were, I suppose, in the military

5 investigative prison in Banja Luka. Now, as to the results of that

6 investigation, I don't know anything about that.

7 Q. In autumn of 1992, were these volunteers present in the territory

8 of Samac municipality?

9 A. No. No. After their arrest, they did not come back to Samac

10 municipality. I don't know what was their fate afterwards.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, could I have just a second, please, to

13 check documents, please.


15 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Could we have Exhibit D46/1, please.

16 Q. [Interpretation] Could you please comment on this decision.

17 A. I'm not familiar with this document.

18 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have D45/1, please.

19 Q. [Interpretation] Can you tell us something about this document?

20 Are you familiar with it? Have you seen it before?

21 A. I can't remember.

22 Q. Was this discussed at a meeting?

23 A. Yes.

24 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have Exhibit D55/1, please.

25 Q. [Interpretation] This is a payroll or salary list for 1992, March

Page 13082

1 [As interpreted]. Does it reflect the actual state of affairs as regards

2 the members of the Crisis Staff and their salaries?

3 A. I think I've already explained that.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The month is May.

5 MR. PANTELIC: Just a correction to the transcript. It's a

6 payroll list for May 1992. Because on page 68, line 3, it said "March

7 1992." So just for the record.

8 Q. [Interpretation] Please proceed, Mr. Simic.

9 A. This list does reflect the Crisis Staff.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have D63/1, please.

12 Q. [Interpretation] Look at page 2 of the document, please. But

13 before you do, tell me what you can tell us in general about this.

14 A. I can say that this article was published in the Samac Koridor

15 newspaper.

16 Q. Is that a newspaper? What is it?

17 A. Yes. Well, actually, it's a magazine which was published in Samac

18 from the end of 1992 until 1998. And this is one of the articles

19 published in Koridor, the periodical. The author of the article is Vaso

20 Antic, a journalist, and he wanted to show what the situation was like at

21 that time when dialysis functioned -- or rather, when the patients who

22 needed dialysis as a treatment had problems, encountered problems, because

23 the Samac municipality had a lot of problems with the dialysis machines

24 and everything linked to haemodialysis. And they managed through the

25 International Community and some institutions to ensure the resources they

Page 13083

1 needed and the technical equipment they needed. However, despite all

2 that, the situation was still very difficult. The centre for

3 haemodialysis, which you can see on the photograph here, was targeted

4 persistently.

5 Q. Would you look at page 2 of the article, please, and see whether

6 among the patient statements you can tell us which person belonged to

7 which ethnic group, if you're able to say that.

8 A. Yes. Stevo Vukovic, from Crkvina, was a Serb. Todo Babic

9 [phoen], from Donja Slatina, was a Serb lady. Jozo Stevanovic was from

10 Crkvina, a Serb again. Munira Ziamovic, a lady from Samac was a Muslim.

11 Ferida Islamovic [phoen], also from Samac was a Muslim lady. Danica Pacak

12 also from Samac. I can't tell you what she was.

13 Q. Read her statement. Take a look at what she says.

14 A. She says that she's been going to dialysis treatment for a number

15 of years.

16 Q. But I'm interested in her ethnicity.

17 A. She's a Croat lady.

18 Q. Thank you. Now, when was this periodical founded?

19 A. The periodical named Koridor was founded at the end of 1992.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MR. PANTELIC: -- D58/1, please.

22 Q. [Interpretation] Can you tell us something about this document

23 perhaps?

24 A. This document is one of the documents which relate to certain

25 appointments for individuals and cadres, coordinators of certain

Page 13084

1 companies, institutions, et cetera. And Mr. Mesud Nogic was appointed to

2 the post of coordinator in the health centre of Bosanski Samac.

3 Q. Tell us, please, whether you know how long he continued in that

4 post.

5 A. As far as I know, Mr. Nogic performed this duty right up until the

6 time that he decided to leave Samac as his place of residence. And I

7 think he went abroad, but I'm not quite sure. I don't know where he went,

8 actually.

9 Q. Could you give me a date?

10 A. No, I couldn't. I don't know.

11 Q. And what ethnicity was Dr. Nogic?

12 A. Dr. Nogic was a Muslim, or rather, he was a Bosniak, of Bosniak

13 ethnicity.

14 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you. Could we have, please, Exhibit D64/1.

15 Q. [Interpretation] Tell me what you can say about the document. The

16 period of time is November 1992.

17 A. Yes. That was when the public civil engineering enterprise was

18 set up, and it included the bricklaying factory in Novi Grad and the delta

19 of the Bosna River -- actually, these were two companies which merged.

20 Q. What was the object of this undertaking?

21 A. Well, the town at that time had been largely destroyed, so the

22 object of setting up a company of this kind was to build up the town, to

23 repair the buildings that had been damaged, to do some civil engineering

24 work where it was needed, and to build up the town again, rebuild it.

25 That was the object for this company being set up.

Page 13085

1 Q. Tell me, did you know that in some enterprises in 1992 and 1993 -

2 these are the years that we're interested in in this trial - that workers

3 of all ethnic groups found employ?

4 A. Well, I haven't got any complete information and data about that,

5 but I do know for certain that in many companies there were workers who

6 belonged to all the ethnic groups or the three main ethnic groups, because

7 in Samac we have Croats, Serbs, and Muslims.

8 Q. All right. Thank you.

9 MR. PANTELIC: Mr. Usher, you can take this document.

10 Q. [Interpretation] I have a few more documents here which I can show

11 you, but perhaps we could take them all together through my questions.

12 The Crisis Staff, did it make decisions to authorise fodder, feed,

13 animal feed for farmers who produced livestock? Do you remember the

14 Crisis Staff discussing topics like that?

15 A. That part of the -- the Crisis Staff work that I took part in, we

16 did not discuss topics of that kind, but I assume that when members of the

17 executive council were present, they did discuss such issues. So with

18 regard to animal feed and fodder --

19 Q. No, I didn't actually -- tell me in principle. Do you happen to

20 know whether the Crisis Staff or any other organs of the municipality in

21 1992 and 1993 made efforts to ensure that farming on the farms -- tell us

22 a little about that, because you belonged to the information department.

23 So quote a few examples. And it was 1992 and 1993. And what was done in

24 this area?

25 A. It was a priority task to capacitate those resources which were

Page 13086

1 linked to food production and so capacitate these farms and other

2 facilities and resources. So these were priority tasks. That, I do know.

3 Now, how this was done, what methods were used to promote food production,

4 I really can't say. I don't know.

5 Q. Well, yes, I didn't mean you to go into those details.

6 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have Exhibit D60/3, please.

7 Q. [Interpretation] What can you tell us about this document,

8 Mr. Simic? Take a look at it.

9 A. This decision was taken to solve a practical problem. The members

10 of the army, soldiers that were refugees from the refugee population, the

11 problem was where to bury them. In Samac soldiers were buried who were

12 from the local area, from those local communities and communes, and we had

13 the problem of where to bury people who were originally refugees. And the

14 cemeteries were full. There wasn't enough room to bury these people. So

15 this decision was made to try and resolve the issue, to regulate matters.

16 Q. Thank you. Do you happen to know how many inhabitants were

17 killed -- Samac inhabitants were killed during the war?

18 A. As far as I know, around 90 -- between 80 and 90. You mean the

19 municipality or the town?

20 Q. The municipality.

21 A. Between 80 and 90 persons.

22 Q. Were they soldiers or civilians?

23 A. This figure applies to civilians.

24 Q. Does this figure apply to all three ethnic groups or ...?

25 A. That number does apply to all three ethnic groups, Serbs, Muslims,

Page 13087

1 and Croats.

2 Q. Do you perhaps happen to know -- it's difficult, I know, to go

3 into the details, but generally speaking, how these people lost their

4 lives.

5 A. These people, for the most part, were killed because they were hit

6 by artillery projectiles. On rare occasions did people die from bullets.

7 Usually they were artillery projectiles that they were hit by.

8 Q. And how many wounded civilians were there?

9 A. Probably a far larger number. There were probably many more

10 people who were injured and wounded. The figure must have been several

11 times higher. And I saw some people being killed myself. If this august

12 Tribunal would like to hear my experiences, what I saw.

13 Q. Well, all right. Briefly, then.

14 A. I remember the shelling in May, when several civilians died in a

15 single day. I was on the ground then and I was present at one such

16 situation -- or rather, I came shortly after the shelling. That happened

17 in Crkvina in front of the house of Nikola Maslic.

18 Q. Just briefly, please.

19 A. Mrs. Maslic, a peasant woman, was in front of her shelter wearing

20 her clothes and a shrapnel went through her chest. That was an awful

21 sight that I still have in my mind, one of horrible incidence.

22 Q. Since members of all three ethnic groups, civilians from all three

23 ethnic groups were killed, can you tell us this: Did the non-Serbs have

24 their own burial procedures? Was it all done regularly? Or did it only

25 apply to Serbs?

Page 13088

1 A. There are three cemeteries in Samac. One is an Orthodox one. The

2 other one is a Catholic cemetery. And the third one is a Muslim one.

3 Funerals were performed in cemeteries depending on the ethnic origin.

4 That's how it was before the war, during the war, and today.

5 Q. Were religious ceremonies observed for each ethnic group?

6 A. Yes, they were observed.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MR. PANTELIC: Ms. Registrar, could we have Exhibit D58/3, please.

9 Q. [Interpretation] Are you familiar with this decision of the War

10 Presidency, dated November 1992?

11 A. The handwriting is not very legible, but I think that this is a

12 conclusion that has to do with the convening of the municipal assembly

13 session, and I do remember that. So the session was being prepared, the

14 one that was to be held on the 22nd of January, 1993.

15 Q. And when that happened, did the War Presidency terminate its work,

16 once the municipal assembly became operational?

17 A. Yes, that's right. Once the municipal assembly was convened, the

18 War Presidency was abolished and the assembly started functioning together

19 with all of its organs and so on.

20 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, thank you, Mr. Usher.

21 Ms. Registrar, could we have Exhibit D59/3, please.

22 Q. [Interpretation] Can you tell us anything about this document?

23 A. This document was adopted in April of 1992. It was necessary then

24 to ensure that the municipal staff of civilian protection was fully

25 operational; therefore, Mr. Miroslav Tadic was appointed to this post.

Page 13089

1 And upon being appointed to this post, he also became a member of the

2 Crisis Staff, and his term within the Crisis Staff continued until the War

3 Presidency was established.

4 Q. What can you tell us about the scope of activities of the civilian

5 protection staff? What did they generally deal with?

6 A. The civilian protection staff had many tasks because many houses

7 were destroyed, a lot of buildings were ruined, many institutions could

8 not operate on account of that, and a lot of work had to be done in order

9 to make it all operational. This staff worked on these matters around the

10 clock, and the people who worked there were very, very busy.

11 Q. What was the situation with --

12 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please repeat the question.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: The interpreters didn't get your question.

14 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. I have that.

15 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, please tell me, what do you know about

16 providing food for the civilian population of Samac in that period of

17 time?

18 A. This is what the situation was like: The supply of food into town

19 from the villages was interrupted. There was also no supply of medication

20 and any other goods. Therefore, the municipality had to rely on its

21 internal reserves and to find some alternative methods of acquiring goods

22 from Yugoslavia.

23 Q. In that initial period, were there any activities undertaken in

24 order to feed the civilian population?

25 A. Due to the fact that there was no supply of food and goods, the

Page 13090

1 civilian protection staff organised the feeding of the population by

2 setting up certain food distribution sites. They distributed bread, cans,

3 baby food, and even cigarettes occasionally, but it was mostly intended

4 for the food.

5 Q. You mentioned the situation in the villages. What you just told

6 us was about the town itself. And what was it like in the villages?

7 A. Well, the situation in villages was better. People in villages

8 had more food because they had their fields and their own production of

9 bread and they had cattle and other types of food, and all of that was

10 lacking in the town.

11 Q. I understand that. And what was the situation like in the village

12 of Zasavica?

13 A. I assume it was the same as in other villages.

14 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, is it an appropriate time maybe to

15 address the Trial Chamber with the issue with regard to the Rule 71?

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The witness can be escorted out of the

17 courtroom.

18 The proceedings will continue on Tuesday.

19 [The witness stands down]

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

21 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. As I said, the

22 Defence received a Prosecution response to the joint Defence motion made

23 in respect of Rule 71. The Prosecution response was dated the 29th of

24 November, this year.

25 The Defence would like to -- to express its opinion in order to

Page 13091

1 assist the Trial Chamber in the rendering of relevant decision. Just

2 several remarks:

3 In principle, we absolutely do not have any objections with regard

4 to the issue of video testimony, videolink, so we are on the same line --

5 same track with the Prosecution with regard to this proposition. Of

6 course, the final -- the final decision will be, of course, of the Trial

7 Chamber. That's the first thing.

8 The second thing, with the -- regard to the some -- some other

9 things: In paragraph 12 of this response, the Prosecution mentioned

10 several names of the witnesses for the defendant Mr. Blagoje Simic, and

11 the names are Mitar Mitrovic, Savo Popovic, Slobodan Sjencic, Milan

12 Pisarevic, and Momcilo Krajisnik. Just for the record, the Defence states

13 that Mr. Slobodan Sjencic with a member of the executive board, not a

14 member of the Crisis Staff. And Milan Pisarevic was just in pre-time --

15 pre-war period was just a secretary of SDS municipal branch. So neither

16 Mr. Sjencic nor Mr. Pisarevic were members of the Crisis Staff. Just as a

17 matter of clarity

18 With regard to Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik, of course -- the Defence was

19 not of the opinion that Mr. Krajisnik, in case that our request should be

20 granted, should travel to Belgrade to give testimony in accordance with

21 Rule 71. However -- I mean, our -- our understanding was if Mr. Krajisnik

22 will give his testimony, that it will be in the premises of the Tribunal

23 or by way of Rule 92 bis at the premises of UNDU.

24 With regard to Mr. Krajisnik, I would like to reiterate that the

25 Defence raised that issue with regard to Variant A and B during the

Page 13092

1 proceedings in the Prosecution case. We got in mind several names, but in

2 order to respect consumption of time of Defence case, we make our choice

3 that Mr. Krajisnik will simply answer the question of his personal

4 knowledge of Variant A and B. I have consent of his lawyer. I made the

5 necessary contacts. And in terms of time, it will be not more than, let's

6 say, five minutes. Because it's only one question. So there is not

7 any -- any kind of big cross-examination or -- of course cross-examination

8 could be limited only to the issue of that personal knowledge -- potential

9 personal knowledge of Mr. Krajisnik with regard to the existence of

10 so-called Variant A and B. So that is the --

11 Another thing which the Defence could like to reiterate: That we

12 could of course -- we could of course make some variations with regard to

13 the time, but the issue of a public hearing in terms of Rule 71, the

14 Defence is of the opinion that it's a rather strange approach of the

15 Prosecution, because the term of the position is not related to the

16 principle of publicity. It's rather more flexible and more, I would say,

17 practical way how the parties can in a process of searching of truth

18 can -- can do their job in accordance with the common law standards. And

19 then this documents -- I mean the transcripts or videotapes could be

20 tendered in the evidence of the -- in the case by itself, and finally the

21 Trial Chamber will make an evaluation of each of these exhibits. And our

22 understanding of the spirit of Rule 71 is that in the interests of

23 justice, in the interest of judicial economy and in accordance with the

24 certain budgetary problems, the parties should give their personal attempt

25 in order to respect all these three principles, and therefore Rule 71 was

Page 13093

1 introduced. Otherwise, what would be the sense of Rule 71 in our

2 proceedings?

3 Thank you. That's from the part of Mr. Blagoje Simic's Defence.

4 Thank you.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'll be very brief, but

7 I would like us to turn into private session due to some details regarding

8 the witness that I have proposed. I would just like to say a few words.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, we'll go into private session, please.

10 [Private session]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 13094

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [Open session]

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] As regards the second argument

6 advanced by the Prosecution, I don't see why they are objecting to the

7 second witness for Miroslav Tadic, because they didn't say anything

8 regarding that beforehand.

9 I would also like to add that Defence of Miroslav Tadic tried to

10 reduce even more the time envisaged for these depositions so that with

11 respect to the time initially envisaged, we have now reduced it to less

12 than one hour per witness. Thank you.

13 MR. PANTELIC: And in addition, Your Honour, if it may assist the

14 Trial Chamber, if that's a problem, the Defence for Blagoje Simic can

15 limit it -- can limit their witnesses in Rule 71 to the following -- to

16 the following persons: Mr. Sjencic, then Mr. Duekovic, Colonel Vujinovic,

17 and Mr. Krajisnik. So in total, from our list, we could have these four

18 persons instead of seven, so in order to be complete. If they may assist

19 the Trial Chamber.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well. What you're saying -- these you have

21 mentioned are the ones -- if the Trial Chamber were to cut down, you'd

22 rather have these on the list.

23 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, yes. If there is a necessity to cut down the

24 number of Defence witnesses, then we could be satisfied with these four

25 names, because I think that we shall even make certain limitations in

Page 13095

1 terms of time for --

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well.

3 MR. PANTELIC: -- these four. Thank you.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pisarevic.

5 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, not to repeat what my

6 learned colleagues have already said, but we really, really do feel that

7 it is in the interests of justice that these depositions be performed in

8 any way that is provided for by the rules and regulations. We feel

9 strongly on that score.

10 In preparing this submission, we have given our proposals for nine

11 depositions and we have reduced them to the smallest number possible to be

12 taken. As things now stand - and we were guided by this - was that they

13 were short statements to brief episodes, events, and I don't think that

14 these depositions as far as the witnesses proposed are concerned, proposed

15 by Mr. Zaric's Defence, will not be long ones. They were short meetings,

16 short contacts, and we can also say that each of these depositions which

17 we are proposing will not last longer than 20 minutes -- 25 to 30 minutes

18 at the most.

19 And also, if the Trial Chamber decides to reduce the number of

20 depositions, we should like to ask that we, the Defence counsel, should be

21 allowed to decide which witnesses we're going to select. Thank you.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well.

23 Yes. The Trial Chamber will make its -- you wanted to reply,

24 Mr. Re?

25 MR. RE: Just very briefly to several matters.

Page 13096

1 Mr. Lukic seems to misunderstand the Prosecution's position. We

2 are not objecting to his calling deposition -- his calling those

3 witnesses. We are objecting only to a category of witnesses which we say

4 is inappropriate to be called as deposition witnesses. And it's set out

5 in our response, so I won't go into that.

6 The other point I wish to make is in relation to Mr. Krajisnik.

7 It's a very important point. My learned friend Mr. Pantelic says it will

8 only take five minutes. Well, he may only be five minutes in his

9 examination-in-chief of Mr. Krajisnik, but the Prosecution will be much,

10 much, much longer, because there are many issues relating to the heart of

11 this matter of this case which we will put to Mr. Krajisnik, as we will

12 have to put our case to him as the president of the National Assembly at

13 the time and the instructions given by the government to the local Crisis

14 Staffs. He would take a long, long time; not five minutes. That's --

15 that's fairy tale stuff in my submission, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well. The Trial Chamber will take the decision

17 as soon as possible so that the parties know which witnesses will go under

18 Rule 71. Of course there may be -- there may be variations. And

19 depending on how the Trial Chamber feels, some witnesses may be -- it may

20 be important for the Trial Chamber to observe them so that they may have

21 to come as viva voce witnesses. But the decision will be rendered as soon

22 as possible.

23 We shall adjourn and continue our proceedings on Tuesday. The

24 times are as per the calendar.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.06 p.m.,

Page 13097

1 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 3rd day of

2 December, 2002, at 9.30 a.m.