Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14111

1 Thursday, 16 January 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.33 p.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon. Case number IT-95-9-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Miroslav Tadic, and Simo Zaric.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: May the witness make the solemn declaration. Will

10 you stand up?


12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

14 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Please sit down.

16 Apologies for starting late. There was a problem with the

17 elevator, so it has just been sorted out and then we are able to assemble.

18 We can start, Mr. Lukic.

19 Examined by Mr. Lukic:

20 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

21 Good afternoon, Mr. Maslic. Do you hear me well?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You are getting the translation in your head gear from the

24 interpreters?

25 A. Yes.

Page 14112

1 Q. Mr. Maslic, during the preparation for this trial, I asked you to

2 try to respect certain procedure, and I'm referring here to the speed of

3 your speech. This is something that I myself have been trying to do, and

4 the interpreters have indeed often objected to the speed with which I

5 speak. So please speak slowly so that every word will be properly

6 recorded in the trial record, which is in our mutual interest.

7 I also mentioned while we were preparing for this trial that you

8 should make a pause after hearing my question of a couple of seconds and

9 then only reply, because that too has to be interpreted.

10 Would you please slowly tell us your first name and last name.

11 A. My name is Velimir Maslic.

12 Q. Tell us: When and where were you born?

13 A. I was born on the 5th of May, 1958, in Podnovlje, Doboj

14 municipality.

15 Q. How far is this place from Samac municipality, approximately?

16 A. About 40 kilometres.

17 Q. What are you by ethnicity?

18 A. I'm a Serb.

19 Q. Tell me about your parents and your predecessors. Are they all

20 from this area, a number of generations, or did they move into the area

21 later?

22 A. Yes, all my ancestors lived in the area for quite some time.

23 Q. Will you tell us whether you're married, what your marital status

24 is? Do you have any children?

25 A. Yes, I am married. I have two children.

Page 14113

1 Q. Please tell me whether the situation in terms of your marital

2 status was the same in 1992, and how old were your children then?

3 A. In 1992 my son was 9, and my daughter was a year old.

4 Q. Did you serve military service, and where?

5 A. Yes, I did my military service. That was in Kraljevo, in 1980.

6 Q. What was your reserve duty station after you served your military

7 service? Where was it?

8 A. I was assigned to this administration organ by virtue of my

9 profession.

10 Q. Tell me: What educational background do you have? What schools

11 have you completed, and when?

12 A. I finished primary school in Podnovlje and I completed secondary

13 school in Doboj, and the two-year post-secondary school for social workers

14 I completed in Sarajevo, at the faculty of political sciences streamed

15 social work.

16 Q. When did you graduate?

17 A. In 1979.

18 Q. Will you briefly describe your career? When did you find your

19 first employment? What positions did you hold? What did your work

20 involve? And I'm particularly interested in the period from 1990 to 1994,

21 of course also in the period leading up to that.

22 A. I was first employed in the Jakes social work and medical

23 establishment. That was in 1981. A couple of months after that, I found

24 employment with the Samac municipality social work centre as an officer in

25 charge of child care and social welfare. In 1986 [Realtime transcript

Page 14114

1 read in error "1996"] I was elected the director of the social work

2 centre. I held this post of director until 1991, and in 1991 my term

3 expired, and it was not renewed, so that I was reassigned as desk officer

4 in charge of social welfare.

5 Q. When were you actually elected director? I think there was a

6 mistake in the record.

7 A. That was in 1986.

8 Q. Thank you. After that, what else did you do?

9 A. Until 1992 I worked in the child protective services segment of

10 the social work centre, and in April 1992, when the war broke out in Samac

11 municipality, the Crisis Staff there appointed me as director of the

12 social work centre, my duty being --

13 Q. We will deal with that later. Just tell me now: After that post,

14 what did you do? How long did you remain director of the centre, and what

15 did you do afterwards?

16 A. So I remained on this post of director of the social work centre

17 until 1993, the end of 1993, at which time I was elected the secretary of

18 the secretariat for social services and administration of Samac

19 municipality, at which duties I'm still working today.

20 Q. In addition to these posts, these functions in 1992 and 1993, did

21 you hold any other positions in these years?

22 A. In view of the fact that I'm a social worker by profession within

23 the services of the centre I had a series of duties to perform associated

24 with humanitarian work, primarily work with the Red Cross organisation of

25 Samac municipality.

Page 14115

1 Q. Did you hold any leading positions in the Red Cross organisation

2 during that period, and which ones?

3 A. Yes. I was the president of the Red Cross from 1993, and as of

4 April 1992 until that particular period, I had been an activist and

5 coordinator of the work of the Red Cross organisation and of our centre.

6 Q. There were some other missions and activities that you also

7 discharged, but we will deal with that later as we proceed with our case

8 and your statement. Will you tell me now whether before the war you

9 belonged to any political party.

10 A. Yes. I was a member of the League of Communists of Yugoslavia

11 from -- until 1990.

12 Q. Okay. Okay. I've got the answer. Okay.

13 So after 1990, in the course of 1991, 1992, and 1993, were you a

14 member of any other political party?

15 A. No, I was not.

16 Q. Tell me: Are you a member of any political party today?

17 A. Yes. Today I am a member of the Serbian Democratic Party.

18 Q. Tell me: When did you become a member of the Serbian Democratic

19 Party?

20 A. In 1996.

21 Q. Thank you. I will ask you another brief question to start with,

22 and we shall also elaborate upon it a bit later. Tell me - I will not ask

23 you whether you know Miroslav Tadic. That is totally indubitable. Tell

24 me: Did you know Miroslav Tadic before the war, and on what terms were

25 you?

Page 14116

1 A. Before the war I knew Mr. Tadic by sight. We never actually

2 socialised. I did not have any significant contacts or cooperation with

3 him.

4 Q. Did you know that he was the owner of a certain catering

5 establishment by the name of the AS cafe?

6 A. Yes, I did know that.

7 Q. Did you frequent this cafe before the war?

8 A. I never went to the AS cafe before the war. In fact, I never went

9 there.

10 Q. Did you perhaps happen to hear what kind of customers frequented

11 the place?

12 A. No. No. That was not actually anything that I was interested in.

13 Q. You just said that when you held the post of director of the

14 social work centre between 1986 and 1991, you said that in that period,

15 actually, you held that position of the director of the social work

16 centre. Will you explain to us, focussing primarily on the period after

17 the 1990 multiparty elections, how did the centre function? How many

18 staff were there while you were there? So I'm interested in the form:

19 How did this institution operate, et cetera?

20 A. The social work centre is a social welfare institution which

21 provides social welfare services to the population, and in so doing abides

22 by and applies a series of laws from -- governing the subject-matter in

23 question. For example, providing family protection and care, legal

24 protection to families, the care and protection of minors, social welfare

25 and protection to the population, which is in a state of social need,

Page 14117

1 child care, welfare, and providing other services according to other

2 laws. The founder of the centre is the Municipal Assembly, and the

3 director, the director's appointment, was proposed by the assembly of the

4 working people of the establishment in question, with the final decision

5 on the appointment being taken by the Municipal Assembly, having obtained

6 the sense of the departmental ministry in question. The term of office of

7 the director was four years.

8 Q. Thank you. Will you please tell me - I think I've referred to

9 this already - how many workers were there? How many workers were

10 employed in your centre while you were the director of the centre, and

11 what was the ethnic mix of the population -- of the workers - sorry -

12 which were employed in the centre?

13 A. During my term of office, as director of the centre, there were

14 eight workers employed there, among whom there were Serbs and Croats and

15 Muslims.

16 Q. Were such centres for social work in existence in all the

17 municipalities? What was their territorial organisation like? How were

18 they functionally organised? Just give me this in a nutshell. Was this

19 specific only to the Samac municipality or did they exist elsewhere?

20 A. As far as I know, in Bosnia-Herzegovina generally, about 90 per

21 cent of the municipalities had similar centres.

22 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Excuse me for interrupting you, but I'm going

23 back to page 7, and line 12, where it reads: "During my term of office as

24 director of the centre, there were eight workers employed there, among

25 whom there were Serbs and Croats and Muslims." Those ethnicity terms are

Page 14118

1 all in the plural, which means that there were only two or, at most, if

2 there were Croats and Muslims, it must have been two plus two, four. So

3 the rest -- how -- can you explain more explicitly how many persons there

4 were of different ethnicities? Thank you.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can. Of the total number of

6 eight employed, that is, including myself, there were four Serbs, three

7 Croats, and one Muslim.

8 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Thank you.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. What were the interpersonal relations like in your centre? I'm

11 talking about the end of 1991 and 1992, and I'm specifically referring and

12 accentuating the interethnic relations within your community. What were

13 they like?

14 A. This was a small collective, and we got along exceptionally well.

15 We worked as one team. And there were no conflicts whatsoever on ethnic

16 or any other grounds.

17 Q. Yes. Perhaps the Trial Chamber will also like to hear this. When

18 you -- when your term of office expired, you remained a clerk for social

19 welfare. Who was the director of the social work centre until you were

20 re-elected, and what happened to that particular person? Do you know

21 that?

22 A. After my term of office expired, Mr. Ivanovic was -- Djuro

23 Ivanovic was appointed director of the centre. He was a Croat by

24 nationality and he stayed on as the director of the centre until the

25 outbreak of the war in Samac municipality.

Page 14119

1 Q. What happened to him when the war broke out?

2 A. He left the area of the municipality. His home was in a nearby

3 village, which now belongs to the Federation, the Bosnia-Herzegovina

4 Federation.

5 Q. Do you know when it was that he left? More specifically, when it

6 was that he left the area of Samac municipality? The conflicts, of

7 course, broke out sometime in April 1992.

8 A. He left the territory of Samac municipality on the 16th of April.

9 Q. Were you at work on the 16th?

10 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Lukic. I wonder whether the

11 witness could tell us: What was the period that this Mr. Ivanovic held

12 his term of office as director?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't understand the question.

14 I'm sorry.

15 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Okay. How long after you -- your term of office

16 expired Mr. Ivanovic was appointed as director of the centre? How long

17 did he hold that office until he left, as you say, on the 16th of April,

18 1992?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I can remember, several

20 months prior to the outbreak of the war in the territory of Samac

21 municipality, he was the director of the centre.

22 JUDGE WILLIAMS: And did he speak to you about why he felt it

23 necessary to leave the municipality of Bosanski Samac on the 16th of

24 April, 1992, as you were colleagues, I wonder whether he discussed this

25 with you as a director and yourself as a former director of the centre.

Page 14120

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He didn't discuss the issue with me,

2 that particular issue with me.

3 JUDGE WILLIAMS: One last question: Did you ask him yourself why

4 are you leaving, or not?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't have occasion to ask him

6 that.

7 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

8 JUDGE LINDHOLM: If I may continue on the same line. How do you

9 know that he left on the 16th of April?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know because once the war had

11 broken out in Samac municipality on the 17th of April, I was already in

12 Samac on the 19th, between the 19th and the 20th. The centre at the time

13 was not working, nor did he appear at work.

14 JUDGE LINDHOLM: So this is a kind of conclusion you made, but you

15 don't have any direct knowledge of his leaving on the 16th of April?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He left work on the 16th and he

17 didn't come back again.

18 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Thank you.

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. May I infer from what you just said that you were at work on the

21 16th of April?

22 A. Yes, I was.

23 Q. Tell me, please -- we'll come back to the 16th of April and the

24 events on that date, but I would like to know, because obviously we'll be

25 discussing this issue at some length today: What was the relationship

Page 14121

1 between the social welfare centre and the Red Cross in Samac? Or an

2 additional question: Did the Red Cross exist before the war? What were

3 the relations between the two? What were the duties of one and the other,

4 and were they linked in any way?

5 A. The social welfare centre, before the war, cooperated very closely

6 with the Red Cross, as a humanitarian organisation, and it engaged in a

7 number of joint activities.

8 MR. WEINER: Your Honour --

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

10 MR. WEINER: I'm very sorry to interrupt counsel during his direct

11 examination. However, we've had testimony in this case about the

12 International Red Cross, the local Red Cross. Could he just clarify which

13 one he's talking about when he says, "We had good relations with the Red

14 Cross," so that there will not be any confusion in the future. Because I

15 assume when the war starts, we're going to be dealing with both. So can

16 we just separate those two, please.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm sure counsel will deal with that.

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I should like to thank my learned

19 friend from the Prosecution. Perhaps this is just the right time to clear

20 this up.

21 Q. So could you explain, in answer to this remark, which Red Cross

22 you were referring to, what organisation it was, what was the hierarchy,

23 who was the superior, and so on.

24 A. I was referring to the local Red Cross organisation, and also the

25 Red Cross of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Page 14122

1 Q. But that had nothing to do with the International Red Cross in

2 those days. We'll be coming to that somewhat later. Isn't that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. So please continue.

5 A. As I was saying, we had a series of contacts and areas of

6 cooperation, primarily with the aim of assisting the population, which was

7 in need. We would jointly organise solidarity campaigns, which meant

8 collecting humanitarian aid, food, clothing, footwear, and the actual

9 distribution of the goods collected to the population that was in need.

10 The social welfare centre and its staff members had clear records of all

11 persons who needed assistance, and with the assistance of the Red Cross

12 organisation, that aid and other forms of aid were distributed to the

13 citizens of Samac municipality.

14 The Red Cross organisation, also cooperating with the social

15 welfare centre, the health centre, would organise various activities in

16 the area of health care, such as, for instance, volunteer blood donations,

17 voluntary blood donations, assistance and care for the elderly, and other

18 needy persons.

19 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Excuse me for interrupting you again, but

20 referring to an answer by the witness earlier, it -- he spoke about the

21 time before the outbreak of the hostilities. Of which time is he now

22 speaking? Is it also the time before the 16th and 17th of April, or also

23 during the war? Thank you.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Just a moment, please. My question was about the pre-war period.

Page 14123

1 We'll come back to what happened later. So what you've said so far, does

2 it apply to the period prior to the outbreak of hostilities?

3 A. I understood the question as referring to the period prior to the

4 outbreak of hostilities, and that is how I gave my answer.

5 Q. Do you remember whether prior to the outbreak of hostilities on

6 Samac municipality there was anything specific regarding pre-war

7 exchanges, and if so, did the local Red Cross organisation have any part

8 in it?

9 A. Yes, I do remember that before the war broke out in Samac

10 municipality, an exchange was organised of detained persons on a bridge

11 across the Sava River. I don't know exactly the date when this occurred,

12 but I do know that the local Red Cross organisation was involved in that

13 exchange.

14 Q. Do you know what exactly the local Red Cross did with regard to

15 that particular event?

16 A. I don't know exactly, because I personally was not involved.

17 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me. For the sake of clarity, this

18 exchange now being referred to of detained persons on a bridge across the

19 River Sava, could we just know very briefly who the persons being

20 exchanged were and who they were being exchanged with?

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Could you please answer that question, who was being exchanged for

23 who?

24 A. I'm not familiar with the details regarding that exchange, and I

25 did not take part in it. I do know that representatives arrived from the

Page 14124

1 Republic of Croatia and that this happened on the bridge across the Sava

2 River.

3 JUDGE WILLIAMS: If that's all the witness knows, thank you very

4 much.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. We're still talking about the pre-war period, so please tell me:

7 What was the ethnic composition of the local Red Cross organisation? How

8 many staff members it had, who headed the organisation, and what was the

9 ethnic composition.

10 A. The Red Cross is an organisation of citizens, humanists. There

11 were quite a number of activists. And as far as I know, there was only

12 one person who was professionally employed, and he was of Muslim

13 ethnicity.

14 Q. When you say "quite a number of activists," could you give us a

15 rough estimate of the number?

16 A. I can't tell you the exact figure, but I do know that every local

17 community had persons who were members of the Red Cross organisation and

18 who were active in the Red Cross as people who wanted to help others on a

19 voluntary basis.

20 Q. Could you tell us where the premises of the social welfare were

21 before the war and also the premises of the local Red Cross operation

22 before the war?

23 A. The social welfare centre had its premises in the immediate

24 vicinity of the elementary school in Samac, and the local Red Cross

25 organisation had its office in the old hotel building, which was right

Page 14125

1 next to the new hotel.

2 Q. Thank you. I think we've provided an overview by way of

3 introduction to these institutions, so I would now like to go on to

4 certain events. So my first question is: Did you live in Samac

5 throughout the war?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. Did you live in Samac before the hostilities broke out at the

8 beginning of 1992?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. Could you please tell us of your observations of developments in

11 Samac at the beginning of 1992, what life was like in the municipality, in

12 the town. Were there any changes in relation to the previous period, and

13 what were your observations of the situation?

14 A. As far as life itself is concerned and the developments when the

15 war broke out in Samac municipality, I can say that the situation was very

16 tense, and there was a great deal of uncertainty.

17 Q. Would you tell us when this was in relation to the beginning of

18 the hostilities, which in this case it has been established to have

19 occurred on the 16th to the 17th of April. So what period are you

20 referring to?

21 A. I was referring to the period running up to the hostilities,

22 because conflicts had already broken out and a war was ongoing in the

23 territory of the Republic of Croatia, and which is in the immediate

24 vicinity of my town.

25 Q. What were interethnic relationships like in that period? Did you

Page 14126

1 notice any changes in relation to the previous period?

2 A. What changes are you referring to?

3 Q. I'm referring to life in town. Do you remember whether there were

4 any incidents, any blockade? Did anything occur on the roads?

5 A. Yes, there were incidents, and also entry into town was blocked.

6 As far as I can remember, this was in March 1992. At that time I was not

7 in Samac. I was attending a funeral in Podnovlje. And when I returned,

8 I heard that the town was blocked and one couldn't enter it, and this

9 lasted for a couple of hours. But in the morning it was opened.

10 Q. Did you perhaps hear who blocked the town and what was the reason

11 for this?

12 A. I heard that this had been done by members of Muslim units.

13 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Excuse me for interrupting you, but - I beg your

14 pardon - on page 15, line 14, the witness said: "As far as life itself is

15 concerned and developments when the war broke out in Samac municipality, I

16 can say that the situation was very tense, and there was a great deal of

17 uncertainty." I can imagine, or I can take that you formed a kind of

18 opinion for yourself what was the reason for the situation becoming tense

19 and fear among the people living in Bosanski Samac. Could you tell me

20 about that, your own opinion? It must have some grounds, some reasons.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've said that it was tense. I

22 suppose that it was so because the war had already broken out in the

23 Republic of Croatia, and Samac is a city situated quite close to the

24 border with the Republic of Croatia. At that time already, members of the

25 Croatian army occasionally came into town, and I used to see them in

Page 14127

1 town.

2 Another reason was that there were sporadic clashes, such as the

3 blockade in the month of March. This is what I was referring to when I

4 said that the situation was tense.

5 JUDGE LINDHOLM: If I may come with a follow-up question. Up

6 until the end of 1991 and the beginning of 1992, you, among others, had

7 lived as good friends and neighbours, together with Muslims and Croats in

8 Bosanski Samac. So it's very surprising to hear that all of a sudden

9 because something is happening across the Sava River or the borders of,

10 well, to the west and to the east, that the situation became tense among

11 those who were your neighbours and your friends up until then. Can you

12 explain that to us? Because it's so surprising.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I spoke about this. I answered the

14 question. I described the cooperation and the relationship that existed

15 within the institution where I worked. As far as I personally am

16 concerned, I had no clashes with anyone. I said that the situation was

17 tense, meaning that that was the general situation in town, and this is

18 what I was able to notice, to observe, as a citizen.

19 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Thank you.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. You mentioned seeing members of the Croatian army in town. How

22 did you know that there were members of the Croatian army in Samac?

23 A. I know this because when I walked through the town with friends, I

24 could see uniformed men with the insignia of the Croatian army.

25 Q. You mean wearing the uniforms of the Croatian army?

Page 14128

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What were your feelings upon seeing people wearing uniforms of a

3 different state, neighbouring state?

4 A. I felt uncomfortable.

5 Q. Another question as a follow-up: Did you go in your car through

6 the villages in Samac municipality? Did you see any changes there? What

7 were you able to observe as you travelled through the villages?

8 A. I travelled frequently in my car to a neighbouring village to

9 visit my wife's relatives. In the evening hours I saw that they had watch

10 guards there. On the 16th, in the evening, with my wife and son, I left

11 Samac and went through the village of Grebnice, which is a Croatian

12 village, to Slatina, which is the village where the relatives of my wife

13 live who were watching my 1-year-old daughter. On my way there I was

14 stopped by the guards in Grebnice. They searched me, my car, and let me

15 pass through to Slatina.

16 Q. Who searched you? Who were the guards?

17 A. Those were uniformed people. I didn't see their insignia. I knew

18 some of the people from that village, and I believe that they were

19 locals. One of them recognised me. He mentioned my name and let me pass

20 through.

21 Q. The village of Grebnice, what was the population, the composition

22 of the population of that village at the time?

23 A. The majority of the population was of Croat ethnicity. There were

24 very few Serbs living in that village.

25 Q. You said that they were uniformed. Did they wear the JNA uniforms

Page 14129

1 or some other uniforms?

2 A. Some other uniforms.

3 Q. Was that your only encounter with that type of patrol or were

4 there any other instances of that nature?

5 A. As far as I'm concerned, that was my only encounter.

6 Q. Thank you. I will now turn to another topic.

7 Mr. Maslic, have you heard of the 4th Detachment?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Were you a member of the 4th Detachment?

10 A. Yes, I was a member of it.

11 Q. Can you please tell us how and when did you become a member?

12 A. I was drafted by the secretariat for National Defence sometime in

13 February or March of 1992, and I was assigned to that unit, where I was

14 not issued with any tasks.

15 Q. Just a minute, please. Can we please clarify the translation into

16 English, page 19, line 12. The witness said: "I was mobilised," and not,

17 "I was drafted." I think that we should stick to the terms that had been

18 used before.

19 So you said that you were mobilised by the secretariat; is that

20 right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Were you issued with weapons?

23 A. Yes, I was.

24 Q. What kind of weapons?

25 A. Semi-automatic rifle.

Page 14130

1 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Lukic.

2 Mr. Maslic, you mentioned, on page 19, lines 13 and 14, that after

3 you were mobilised and assigned to that unit, it says here that -- quoting

4 from what you said, you say: "I was not issued with any tasks." But now,

5 in response to this last question by Mr. Lukic on line 25 of the same

6 page, page 19, you say that you were issued with a semi-automatic rifle.

7 Now, I find it a little bit, you know, hard to understand. If you weren't

8 issued with any tasks, why you were issued with a semi-automatic rifle.

9 And I think maybe you could give some explanation. Maybe Mr. Lukic was

10 going to ask you that himself, and I apologise if I preempt your

11 question, Mr. Lukic.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm glad to see that Judge Williams is

13 following closely my questioning. I was about to ask the witness exactly

14 that.

15 Q. Can you please tell us: What does that mean? When were you

16 issued with a rifle and can you tell us whether you were given any

17 assignments, or rather, what were the instructions given to you when you

18 were issued with a rifle?

19 A. When I was mobilised, I was given a semi-automatic rifle, but I

20 was not issued any assignments in terms of the duties I had as a soldier.

21 Q. Did you attend any training exercises?

22 A. No, I did not.

23 Q. Did you have any kind of training?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Did you have any meetings within your unit?

Page 14131

1 A. No, no meetings whatsoever.

2 Q. Tell me: Did you know who was your immediate superior? Did you

3 have to report to somebody? Did you know who was supposed to issue

4 instructions to you?

5 A. Yes, I did. My immediate superior, my commander, was somebody who

6 lived in my building, Mihajlo Topolovac. I asked him what my duties were,

7 and he told me: For the time being you have no duties, and should

8 something arise, we will call you.

9 Q. Do you know what was the ethnic composition of that detachment?

10 Do you know any other members of that detachment and what was their

11 ethnicity?

12 A. The people that I knew from that detachment - and I'm now

13 referring to the circle of people that I personally knew - Ante Sapina,

14 a Croat by ethnicity, was mobilised together with me, and another man who

15 lived in my building. I know that there were other people of various

16 other ethnicities in that detachment.

17 Q. Do you know what position Ante Sapina held before? Did he have

18 a position within the municipality?

19 A. Ante Sapina is somebody who worked as a customs officer in Samac.

20 Prior to that, he used to be president of the Executive Board of Samac

21 Municipal Assembly.

22 Q. Do you know where the command of the 4th Detachment was?

23 A. Yes, I do. It was in the premises of the Sit factory, which was a

24 textile factory.

25 Q. Is this where you were issued with a rifle?

Page 14132

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you know who the commander of the 4th Detachment was?

3 A. Yes. The commander of the 4th Detachment was Radovan Antic.

4 Q. Do you know any other senior officers of that detachment?

5 A. I didn't know other people. I only knew Radovan.

6 Q. Do you know whether Miroslav Tadic had any kind of a position

7 within that detachment?

8 A. No, I don't know about that.

9 Q. Did you know Simo Zaric before the war?

10 A. I knew him by sight, just like Mr. Tadic.

11 Q. Do you know whether he had any particular function within that

12 detachment?

13 A. I don't know about that.

14 Q. Now that we've mentioned two of these men, let's clarify

15 something. Did you ever, before the war, enter Mr. Zaric's apartment?

16 A. No. I've never been to Simo Zaric's apartment.

17 Q. We needed this clarification due to something else that has been

18 said previously here.

19 Did anybody from the 4th Detachment tell you anything about what

20 was to happen in town? Did they ask you to be on alert? The neighbour,

21 who was one of your superiors, did he give you any kinds of instructions

22 prior to the 16th and the 17th?

23 A. When I was mobilised and issued with a weapon, I did not receive

24 any kind of instructions regarding my military involvement. I was simply

25 told that should any tasks come up, you will be informed.

Page 14133

1 Q. Tell us, please: Where did you keep your rifle?

2 A. I kept it in my apartment.

3 Q. In a visible place, or did you have it hidden somewhere?

4 A. I hid the rifle under a bunk-bed in the kitchen.

5 Q. Why?

6 A. Because my son was 9 at the time and he was very interested in

7 these things, and I didn't want him to find the rifle.

8 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Lukic. One question for

9 Mr. Maslic.

10 You had mentioned, at the beginning of your testimony, page 3,

11 lines 10 and 11, in answer to a question by Mr. Lukic as to what your

12 military service had been, and that, I think, was in 1980. And you had

13 said that your assignment was, in terms of military service, was in an

14 administrative organ by virtue of your profession. And so I'm just

15 wondering: In terms of this mobilisation, and you being given a

16 semi-automatic weapon, given no instructions as to any unit you would be

17 in or any tasks you would perform, I'm just wondering, were you given any

18 instructions as how to use the semi-automatic rifle? I'm just a little

19 bit perplexed, given the earlier testimony. But maybe Mr. Lukic can

20 clarify this with you.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Thank you. The witness will clarify. Perhaps the two of us

23 understood each other, but will you please be so kind as to explain about

24 what I asked you about your war duty station. Where were you assigned

25 after your military service? What was your obligation there? Were you

Page 14134

1 issued with any instructions, in the sense of the question asked by Judge

2 Williams?

3 A. In my statement, I said, in the first part, I replied as to my

4 service, military service, in 1980. So this was -- I did my regular

5 military service in that year. When I was employed with the social work

6 centre, every conscript had his war duty station assignment given him.

7 Every time I was not assigned to any such station as a reserve soldier,

8 but according to my profession as a social worker, I was assigned to

9 certain duties in the municipal administration, in the relevant municipal

10 administration department, with the objective of my involvement if the

11 need arose and if extraordinary circumstances called for it.

12 Q. To contribute to your reply: In your war duty assignment that you

13 had in the municipal administrative organ, would you have been issued with

14 a rifle had these extraordinary circumstances indeed arisen, or any other

15 weapon?

16 A. Yes. Had I been thus assigned, I would have probably been issued

17 with a rifle, depending on the actual duty which would be -- to be

18 performed by me at that particular moment.

19 Q. Were you instructed in how to use a rifle while you did your

20 military service?

21 A. Yes. Of course, I was completely trained as a soldier while doing

22 my military service.

23 Q. What actual branch were you?

24 A. Infantry.

25 Q. I don't know whether that clarifies this question.

Page 14135

1 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Excuse me. I've been left with the impression

2 that you didn't know very much about the 4th Detachment before you became

3 a member of it. Could you clarify what was your impression of the purpose

4 and the task of the 4th Detachment, except that it was a kind of a unit

5 under or beside the JNA. For what purpose was it founded? What was your

6 impression?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is true. I didn't know

8 anything about the 4th Detachment. Simply, I reported, having been

9 summoned by the secretariat for National Defence, and I was assigned to

10 that unit. As to my particular task and the role of the detachment, I

11 didn't know anything about either.

12 JUDGE LINDHOLM: So you personally accepted to be, so to say,

13 mobilised into a unit which you didn't know very much, at least. And then

14 a second question: When you were issued a semi-automatic rifle, how many

15 bullets did you get at the same time?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I can recall, I was issued

17 with about 50 bullets.

18 JUDGE LINDHOLM: The first question?

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. The first question was: You accepted to be mobilised into a unit

21 about which you didn't know very much.

22 A. Yes. I was mobilised into that unit and I expected that I would

23 be given concrete tasks in the unit. I asked my immediate superior there

24 what my tasks were, and he replied: All in due time. All in good time,

25 you will know. When the need arises, you will be assigned your tasks.

Page 14136

1 And I accepted that answer.

2 Q. Just a clarification, perhaps, for Judge Lindholm. You say that

3 you accepted. Can one at all have a choice when it comes to mobilisation,

4 when one is called up, what are the consequences of refusing to respond to

5 a call-up?

6 A. Mobilisation ipso facto implies an obligation. There is no

7 possibility for one to choose. There are no options. It is my duty to

8 respond.

9 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I'd object to that. Number one, that's

10 a legal opinion, or at the least, I'd ask that evidence be limited to the

11 former Yugoslavia, that he really cannot offer any opinion as to one's

12 right to refuse mobilisation when you have a break-up of a nation and you

13 have a nation declares independence, you have a former country calling up

14 soldiers from another. So I'd ask that that at least be limited to the

15 situation under the former Yugoslavia.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I would have thought so.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, without wishing to

18 construe anything, I have a simple question, but I do have to respond to

19 the Prosecutor. This is not in fact a legal question of that nature.

20 Does the call-up itself specify what the legal consequences of

21 non-compliance are? What is written on the actual call-up paper, what are

22 the consequences if one fails to respond?

23 A. The consequences is punishment, either monetary fine or by

24 imprisonment, but the obligation is there.

25 Q. So you accepted, you responded to the call-up of the JNA, the

Page 14137

1 Yugoslav People's Army; is that not so?

2 A. Yes, it is.

3 Q. I believe that we have now clarified this matter.

4 Another brief topic before I go on to the actual events. The

5 building in which you lived prior to the war and probably also during the

6 war, what was it like? Was it a residential house? Will you describe the

7 flats in it and the tenants of the building, please.

8 A. I lived in a building, a housing -- a residential building with

9 two entrances, with 24 apartments in it. There were 12 apartments in my

10 entrance, and the tenants were of different ethnicities.

11 Q. Who was your first-door neighbour by name and surname?

12 A. Hajra Sehapovic was my first-door neighbour. This was a lady.

13 And under the storey under mine was Juro Radic, Milan Babic, and so on and

14 so forth.

15 Q. Was Hajra Drljacic a tenant in your building?

16 A. Yes, she was.

17 Q. You mentioned the name Sehapovic, so I wanted to clarify that.

18 A. I apologise. Yes. Drljacic, Drljacic.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we take a break.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can I just clarify this particular

21 point?


23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Will you please just tell us the first and last name of this name?

25 A. Hajra Drljacic.

Page 14138

1 JUDGE MUMBA: We'll take a break and continue at 1615 hours.

2 --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.

3 --- Upon commencing at 4.16 p.m.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. You described in brief for us your building, the tenants. As far

7 as I can conclude without leading you in any way, what was the ethnic mix

8 of the tenants in your entrance?

9 A. It was multinational, mixed. There were Croats and Muslims and

10 Serbs living in the building.

11 Q. Will you tell me on what terms you were with your neighbours?

12 A. We were on very good terms. The relationship was very correct.

13 We helped each other, we saw each other, we socialised.

14 Q. Was this the atmosphere in the period prior to the war?

15 A. Yes, it was.

16 Q. You have already started to describe and described a number of

17 segments of your activities on 16th and -- the 16th and the 17th of April,

18 and we shall deal with that key period in more detail. You said that you

19 went to the village of Slatina. Will you explain in more detail: Why did

20 you transfer this baby to Slatina to stay with your in-laws, with your

21 mother-in-law, as far as I could understand? Would you explain to us what

22 happened during those --

23 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Lukic. Maybe it's the translation

24 shall but line 20 -- 19, says: Why did you transfer this baby to Slatina?

25 I don't recall hearing anything about a baby before the break. Maybe you

Page 14139

1 could clarify, please.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Actually, the witness referred to

3 this -- his daughter, who was 1-year-old, and that is why I referred to

4 this child as such. And now he will explain to us why he, yes, took his

5 daughter there.

6 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Okay. I understand, "This baby" sounded like any

7 baby, somebody else's baby.

8 MR. LUKIC: His daughter.

9 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Okay. That's fine.

10 A. I took my 1-year-old daughter -- actually, she was being looked

11 after by a lady in town. Some 20 days prior to the 17th of April, this

12 woman left town and went to Austria. So I had no one to look after my

13 child, and as my wife is employed and works for the health centre, and my

14 minor son, he was in the third grade of primary school, so I was compelled

15 to entrust my daughter, while we were at work, to my mother-in-law to look

16 after her, and she lived in the village of Slatina, which is about 15

17 kilometres away from Samac.

18 After work, and after our son's classes, I and my wife would then

19 go to Slatina to take care of our child ourselves and to see to -- to

20 attend to all her needs.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. When you say when this lady -- this woman went to Austria, was

23 this an isolated case or were people leaving the municipality at this time

24 in larger numbers?

25 A. This was not an isolated instance. People left in quite a few

Page 14140

1 numbers, and those who had people abroad where they could go did leave.

2 Q. Where were you in the night between the 16th and the 17th of

3 April, 1992?

4 A. I was in Slatina with my family that night.

5 Q. Will you describe for the Court what you heard there, what

6 happened, and what happened the next morning? Will you please explain

7 according to what you've learned that night.

8 A. The next morning I set out for work in my car, with my wife.

9 However, I could not pass all the way through Samac. I was informed that

10 something was going on in town and that there was sporadic shooting there.

11 Q. Who informed you of that?

12 A. The villagers did.

13 Q. Please continue.

14 A. So I returned, because I could not go to Samac, and I waited that

15 day, seeing that something was happening. The next morning I put my two

16 underage children and my wife in the car and I drove them to Cacak to

17 stay with my sister, because I thought that they would be safe there. And

18 after the situation calmed down, we would be able to return.

19 Q. I need clarification on two points from your reply. First of all,

20 who prevented you from going to work, from going into Samac? Who told you

21 that you couldn't? And please explain to the Court where this Cacak is.

22 A. When I set off from Slatina, the road which leads via the village

23 of Grebnice, somewhere at midpoint on that road, I was stopped by a

24 soldier, a local villager, and he told me that I could not go on towards

25 Samac. To my question why I couldn't, he said that there were shooting

Page 14141

1 there, that it wasn't safe. And in particular, in the vicinity of the

2 village of Grebnice, which I had actually passed through the night before

3 and where I was stopped. So I complied, and the next day, as I've already

4 described, I drove my family to Cacak, which is a town in Serbia, some 300

5 kilometres from Samac.

6 Q. And what happened then?

7 A. On the 20th of April, together with my wife, I set out towards

8 Samac, leaving my children in the custody of my sister, intending to

9 report for all my duties. My wife was a medical worker herself, and so

10 she accompanied me on this trip in order to report for work at the

11 medical -- at the health centre. So we -- I arrived in Samac, in my

12 apartment, and spent the night there, and spent that night there. When I

13 arrived in my flat, or rather, at the very door to the flat, Juro Radic, a

14 neighbour of mine, informed me that my flat had been broken into and also

15 that all the flats which were currently uninhabited had also been broken

16 into.

17 Q. Tell me: What is this Juro person by nationality?

18 A. Juro Radic is a Croat by ethnicity, and he told me this, and then

19 he accompanied me to my door, and also told me that he had shut the door

20 and tied them -- tied it with some wire, because the door had been broken

21 down.

22 Q. Did he tell you who had done it?

23 A. He told me that some men in uniform, as he said, some people in

24 motley uniform, had done it. He didn't know them. They were masked.

25 And he said that these were the men who had broken into my apartment,

Page 14142

1 among others. With my wife and this neighbour of mine, I then entered the

2 flat.

3 Q. Just a minute, please. You said some people, some people in

4 uniform, as you said, some multicoloured uniformed people, in motley

5 uniform. Just some more clarification, please. Did he tell you why they

6 had done that? Why had they broken into your apartment?

7 A. He told me that all uninhabited flats in which there were no

8 people could unlock the doors had been broken into, the reason for that

9 being that perhaps there could be some people in those flats who had arms

10 or could shoot from them.

11 Q. What did you find when you entered your flat?

12 A. When I entered my flat, it had been completely ransacked. All --

13 everything from the wardrobe had been on the floor. The furniture had

14 been removed. The whole place had been ransacked, in a word.

15 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Lukic.

16 Mr. Maslic, just for sake of clarification, as I understand it,

17 you've said that you, together with your wife, returned to Samac on the

18 20th of April. Correct? Okay. So your next-door neighbour, or the

19 neighbour that you mentioned here in your responses to counsel's

20 questions, Mr. Radic, I believe his name was, did he indicate when exactly

21 your apartment was broken into? Obviously it was before the 20th of

22 April, but do we have some more clear indication of when?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was in the apartment on the 16th,

24 but I wasn't there on the 17th, 18th, and 19th. He didn't tell me exactly

25 which of those three days the flat had been broken into, so I can't answer

Page 14143

1 that question specifically.

2 JUDGE WILLIAMS: So from your answer, then, we can presume it was

3 the 17th, 18th, 19th, or the 20th, before you actually returned there;

4 would that be correct?

5 JUDGE LINDHOLM: A follow-up question here: In which part of the

6 town is your apartment or was your apartment located?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My apartment was in Pere Bosica

8 Street, number 50, so it is in the very centre of town.

9 JUDGE LINDHOLM: How far away from the Sava River?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About a hundred metres away.

11 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Thank you.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The answer to Judge Williams's

13 question does not appear in the transcript. The question does, but not

14 the answer.

15 Q. She asked you, from your answer, we can presume it was the 17th,

16 18th, 19th, or the 20th before you actually returned there? And your

17 answer to that was?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Tell me, please, since we're discussing this: Was your surname

20 inscribed on the door of your apartment?

21 A. Yes, my first and last name was written there.

22 Q. Tell me: Is Maslic a Serbian surname?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You were telling us what you found when you entered. What about

25 your rifle?

Page 14144

1 A. The rifle was hidden in the bunk-bed in the kitchen, and it wasn't

2 found, so I found it there when I arrived.

3 Q. So the people who ransacked the apartment hadn't found it?

4 A. No, they hadn't.

5 Q. Did you notice whether anything had been stolen?

6 A. No. Nothing was stolen from the apartment.

7 Q. When you arrived there, did you have a telephone in your

8 apartment?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you know whether the other apartments also had telephone lines

11 in your building?

12 A. Yes. All apartments that you reached from my entrance had

13 telephones.

14 Q. When you arrived, did you notice anything unusual about the

15 telephone?

16 A. The telephone line was cut. It wasn't working.

17 Q. And what about the telephone in the neighbour's apartments?

18 A. Judging by what I heard from other neighbours, their telephones

19 weren't working either.

20 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Lukic, once again. Just again a

21 point of clarification.

22 Before the break Mr. Maslic had said, on page 32, lines 13 and 14,

23 in response to your question as to what he found when he entered his flat,

24 he said that everything was on the floor, et cetera. Then he said: "The

25 furniture had been removed. The whole place had been ransacked, in a

Page 14145

1 word." But now, in response to one of your questions -- I can't find the

2 exact line here now. Oh, yes, I can. Page 34, your question, line 3:

3 "Did you notice whether anything had been stolen?" The witness, if the

4 translation is right, so that's why I need the clarification, line 4,

5 says: "No, nothing was stolen from the apartment." So this is rather at

6 odds with what we heard before the break concerning all the furniture

7 having been removed, for example. So can you clarify that? It seems to

8 be inconsistent. So it's page 32, lines 13 and 14, re: The furniture

9 having been removed. And now -- well, what I've just said, line 4 on page

10 34, concerning nothing having been stolen.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think it's an error in the

12 translation. The witness said that the furniture had been moved.

13 Q. So let's clarify this. Was anything taken out of the apartment,

14 or was it just moved around?

15 A. Nothing was taken away from the apartment. Things had been thrown

16 around, scattered, and moved around within the apartment.

17 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Okay. Well, that makes sense, because there's a

18 big difference from removed and moving around. So that makes sense now.

19 Thank you.

20 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. [Interpretation] Let us go back to this story about the

22 telephones. I would like to know whether during the war, did your

23 telephone line start working again? If you don't remember exactly, tell

24 us approximately.

25 A. I don't know exactly, but I do know that throughout 1992, the

Page 14146

1 telephone in the apartment did not work.

2 Q. And did any of the telephones of your neighbours work during that

3 year?

4 A. As far as I know, it did not.

5 Q. Thank you. When you returned to Samac, did you listen to the

6 radio? Do you have a radio and did you listen to any announcements

7 broadcast over the radio?

8 A. I didn't listen to the radio, because I didn't have any

9 electricity.

10 Q. I forgot to ask you that, what the situation was like regarding

11 electricity in that period of time and generally during the war.

12 A. In that period of time there was no electricity, no running

13 water. We used artesian wells for water supplies, and there was only one

14 such well in town, so the situation was very inconvenient, very ugly,

15 without the essentials for normal life.

16 Q. How frequently would the electricity be supplied?

17 A. At first there was no electricity at all, and the water would come

18 occasionally, because there were generators working with oil, and they

19 pumped the water. So during the day there would be periods of one or two

20 hours when the water supply was restored.

21 Q. When did electricity supply become more regular?

22 A. I can't remember exactly, but in the course of 1993 there was more

23 electricity.

24 Q. What did you do then, when you arrived in your apartment, looked

25 around and saw what had happened?

Page 14147

1 A. My wife went off to work. I was asked by Mitar Mitrovic to go to

2 the Crisis Staff, which handed me a decision saying that I had been

3 appointed director of the social welfare centre, and he explained to me

4 that I should do my best to make sure that the work of the centre and the

5 Red Cross be organised properly to ensure the basic conditions for the

6 normal life of citizens. This was my duty also, pursuant to the law on

7 social welfare.

8 Q. Do you remember where the premises of the Crisis Staff were at the

9 time? Where did you go?

10 A. I went to the premises of the Uniglas factory.

11 Q. Had you heard of the Crisis Staff prior to that day?

12 A. No, I had not.

13 Q. Did you see anyone else when you went to see Mr. Mitrovic and

14 received that decision?

15 A. I only saw the security guard, people I didn't know. I didn't

16 really know Mitar either.

17 Q. So you didn't know him from before?

18 A. No, I didn't.

19 Q. Tell me: Do you know Mr. Simeon Simic? [Realtime transcript read

20 in error "Mr. Simic"]

21 A. Yes I do.

22 Q. Did you see him on that day?

23 A. No, I didn't see him on that day there.

24 Q. Do you know Mr. Blagoje Simic?

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] A correction, please. On page 37,

Page 14148

1 line 17, my question was Mr. Simeon Simic, and the witness said yes, and

2 that he didn't see him on that day.

3 Q. Do you know Mr. Blagoje Simic?

4 A. I knew Mr. Blagoje Simic as a physician working in the health

5 centre.

6 Q. Did you see him there on that day?

7 A. No, I did not.

8 Q. Tell me, please: You mentioned your wife, saying that she went

9 off to work. You said that she worked at the health centre. What was her

10 position, and did she work there throughout the war? Was she with you

11 throughout the war?

12 A. My wife worked as a senior nurse in the health centre for

13 vaccinations, and she reported to her director, who assigned her to the

14 same position she had held before, and she held this position throughout

15 the war, with the exception of a few months, when she went to visit our

16 children in Cacak. And this lasted for about two or three months in 1992.

17 Q. And after that did she come back?

18 A. Yes, she came back and continued her -- resumed her duties, duties

19 that she is performing to this day.

20 Q. I have a minor intervention to make. The witness said that she

21 reported to the director of the health centre. His name is Mesud Nogic.

22 And when did your children return to Samac?

23 A. As I didn't have the proper conditions to look after the children

24 in Samac, the school was not working in 1992, so it was only in 1993 that

25 I brought the children back from Cacak and put them up with my mother in

Page 14149

1 the village in which I was born. My son went to school there for half a

2 year, for two terms. And the second half of the year he came to Samac and

3 continued his education there.

4 Q. And why didn't you bring your children to Samac?

5 A. I said a moment ago that I didn't have the appropriate

6 conditions. There was no electricity, no water, and the school had been

7 burned down, the elementary school.

8 Q. Was Samac shelled during the war?

9 A. Samac, the town itself, and the settlements around Samac, were

10 shelled on a daily basis, and it wasn't safe for children to stay there

11 under those conditions.

12 Q. You mentioned that the elementary school had burnt down. Tell

13 me: Where were the premises of your social welfare centre before the war,

14 and where did you organise the work of the centre from the 20th of April

15 onwards? I'm talking about the social welfare centre.

16 A. I have already said earlier on that the premises of the centre

17 were very close to the elementary school. In view of the fact that the

18 school had been torched on the first day of the war, the premises of my

19 own institution were devastated, and it wasn't possible to work there.

20 Q. So where did you go? What did you do?

21 A. Once I received the decision regarding my assignment, I went to

22 those premises. But before that, all my associates who were in town, I

23 called them and we went together to collect the documents from the centre

24 to preserve all the files, which were very important, and files and

25 binders which are important for an institution of that kind. And I

Page 14150

1 addressed the secretary of the local community at the time,

2 Mr. Bolasevic -- Bolasevic Zeljko, and I asked him whether I could use for

3 the social welfare centre premises in the building of the local community

4 offices. Why did I choose that particular building? Because I felt that

5 this building was the safest and that it had enough space for me to be

6 able to organise the whole service of the social welfare centre and the

7 Red Cross organisation. And Mr. Bolasevic opened the offices for me, two

8 offices, actually, that used to be used by the employment bureau at the

9 time, and it was in those offices that we placed the archives of the

10 centre, which we had managed to save entirely, and we continued working in

11 those offices.

12 Q. When you arrived there, did you enter those offices alone or were

13 some people using them when you arrived?

14 A. When we arrived, there were no other services there, but there was

15 sufficient space. I think there is altogether six or seven offices and a

16 conference room which could seat up to 30 people, quite enough for several

17 services to operate in those offices. Those offices were on the first

18 floor of that building.

19 Q. That's a very interesting topic, so we'll discuss it later.

20 But talking about those first days of the war, let me ask you:

21 Had you heard of any order for people to wear white armbands in Samac?

22 A. I never heard of any white armbands, but in town I would see

23 soldiers every day who had certain ribbons on their lapels, but the

24 ribbons were different every day. Sometimes they were white ribbons.

25 These were people in uniform, wearing these ribbons on their lapels. Now,

Page 14151

1 what the meaning of those ribbons were, I don't know.

2 Q. Did you have to leave the door of your apartment unlocked at the

3 time?

4 A. I did not have to.

5 Q. Did you see whether other apartments in your building had their

6 front doors locked in the evening hours?

7 A. When I would come back from work in the evening, since we had no

8 electricity, our neighbours and we would sit together in the stairwell,

9 because that was the safest place. Naturally, after that everybody would

10 go to their own apartments and lock the door.

11 Q. Why was that the safest place?

12 A. Due to shelling.

13 Q. Let us turn back to the re-establishment of your social welfare

14 centre. You told us about your efforts to put in place your staff. Can

15 you tell me how many workers you had and what was the ethnic composition

16 of the personnel that worked in the social welfare centre?

17 A. I attempted to establish the service by employing professionals

18 who used to work in the social welfare centre. In addition to that, I

19 also tried to engage people who wanted to get involved in that kind of

20 work.

21 Q. And what was the ethnic composition of the personnel?

22 A. The people working there were of various ethnicities, mostly those

23 who were not fit for military service. There were Muslims there, Croats,

24 and Serbs.

25 Q. But using those people who used to work in the social welfare

Page 14152

1 centre before and were still available now; is that right?

2 A. Yes, that's right.

3 Q. Very well. And how many workers did you have there? Do you know

4 the approximate number?

5 A. I can't tell you exactly, but I think that I had about 20 people

6 employed there, discharging the duties within the social welfare centre

7 and the Red Cross.

8 Q. How long did the offices of the social welfare centre remain in

9 that building?

10 A. I can't remember exactly the date, but sometime in 1993 we moved

11 out of those premises into other premises.

12 Q. Now, please tell me this. I'm interested in that particular

13 building. What other services, in addition to your centre, were housed

14 there in the beginning of the war, and tell us who had offices on the

15 ground floor and what institutions had services on the upper floor.

16 A. That building is known as the hall of retirees. On the ground

17 floor there's the club of retirees. That is a cafe where the retired

18 persons can play dominos, check [as interpreted], have coffees and tea and

19 so on. There were two offices on the ground floor, and as far as I can

20 remember, in 1992 they were occupied by people who assigned people to

21 various work assignments. I think that there was Celic Dzevad there, and

22 I think a man with the last name Kapetanovic, nicknamed Beg.

23 On the upper floor of that building, in the premises of the former

24 employment bureau, the centre for social welfare and the Red Cross were

25 housed. Later on, next to those offices is where the civilian protection

Page 14153

1 staff was housed as well, as were staff members of the local commune who

2 occupied their own offices.

3 Q. When you say "later on," how much later was it? When did the

4 civilian protection staff relocate there?

5 A. I can't tell you how many days later, but very soon after our

6 arrival there.

7 Q. Could photographs D36/3 and D38/3 ID be shown to the witness,

8 please. Can we please see D36/3 first. We will put it on the ELMO, and

9 then you will be able to see it on the screen.

10 Mr. Maslic, do you know this building?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What is this building?

13 A. This is the building called the hall of the retirees that I spoke

14 of.

15 Q. Now, please take the pointer and show us whether you can see the

16 premises of the pensioners' club and whether we can see here the offices

17 of the work obligation service.

18 A. These premises here were held by the pensioners' club, and the

19 entrance was here on the street, whereas this place here is where the

20 offices of the work obligation service were. The entrance leading to our

21 premises was on the other side of the building, and then upon entering

22 there we would have to go to the first floor.

23 Q. Just for the record, the witness has shown the ground floor, the

24 right corner of the ground floor, which is where the pensioners' club

25 premises were, and then the middle part, between the white and the green

Page 14154

1 vehicle, is where the entrance into the offices held by the work

2 obligation services were.

3 Is that right?

4 A. Yes, it is.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could the Presiding Judge please

6 confirm that this description was accurate? Can we put it for the record

7 in this manner?

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I thought the witness had agreed. Yes.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I just wanted the Presiding Judge to

10 confirm that. Very well.

11 Q. Now, please tell us whether, from this angle, one can see the

12 offices of the centre and the premises of the Red Cross and civil defence

13 and the local community.

14 A. I've already said that the entrance leading to those offices is

15 from the other side of the building, from the courtyard. The premises of

16 the centre and the Red Cross are here, this window, and this other

17 window. The offices of the civil defence are here, behind this window

18 here, whereas the local community premises are behind this window and on

19 the other side of the building, on the first floor.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] For the record, could we please

21 indicate that the witness has shown the windows on the first floor, behind

22 the white panel, as the offices of the Red Cross.

23 Q. Is that right?

24 A. Yes, that's right. These two windows here.

25 Q. And to the left of that, whereas the offices to the right of that,

Page 14155

1 were those of the local community and of the centre?

2 A. Yes, that's right.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, that was correctly described.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown D38/3 ID,

5 please.

6 Q. Mr. Maslic, do you recognise this?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you tell us what is depicted here?

9 A. This is the hallway on the floor where the offices of the Red

10 Cross and the centre were located. These are the offices of the Red Cross

11 and the centre. And here are the toilets. And this door here leads to

12 the premises of the civil defence and the local community. There's a

13 hallway beginning here.

14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] For the record, let us say that the

15 witness has indicated the right door on this photograph as the door

16 leading to the offices of the social welfare centre and the Red Cross,

17 whereas to the left, the door there leads to the toilets, and the other

18 door leads to the hallway, which then leads to the offices of the civil

19 defence and the local commune.


21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Since one of the witnesses did not recognise this area here, this

23 photograph remained as an ID document, but now we would like to tender it

24 into evidence, because this witness has recognised the floor where the

25 offices of these services were. I would like this photograph to be

Page 14156

1 recorded as the photograph depicting hallway leading to the offices of

2 the Red Cross, social welfare centre, local commune and civil defence

3 within the pensioners' club building.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Any objection?

5 MR. WEINER: No objection.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well. Can we have the number confirmed?

7 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D38/3.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Mr. Maslic, briefly, please: You told us that you were director

11 of the social welfare centre. Do you know who was the commander of the

12 civil defence staff then, from the beginning of the war and onwards, and

13 who, as commander of civil defence staff, used the premises next to yours?

14 A. These premises were used by civil defence staff. The commander of

15 the staff was Mr. Miroslav Tadic.

16 Q. Tell us, please: Who at that time was president of the local

17 organisation of Red Cross? I assume that person was called "president."

18 So who was the leader of the Red Cross in April and on?

19 A. It was Mr. Milorad Mihajlovic.

20 Q. The premises held by the work duty service on the ground floor,

21 did they have any physical contact with the offices on the first floor?

22 A. No. There was no physical link between these offices. They had

23 two different entrances which were located on two opposite sides of the

24 building that I've shown on the photograph.

25 Q. Could one enter the building from the offices of the work duty

Page 14157

1 service or did one have to leave the building and then enter through the

2 other entrance?

3 A. One had to exit the building and go to the other entrance, around

4 the building, in order to reach the offices of the work duty service.

5 Q. In the beginning of the war, did these offices have telephones, I

6 mean 1992, when you were there in that building?

7 A. The Red Cross had a telephone connection, and there were very few

8 telephones that were operational.

9 Q. Was that telephone situated in the offices of the Red Cross and

10 the centre? Were those joint offices?

11 A. The telephone of the Red Cross was in the premises of the Red

12 Cross, and I think that the civil defence service did not have a telephone

13 at the time.

14 Q. Did you have a telephone at your centre? Did you have an

15 operational telephone then?

16 A. I said the Red Cross, but our offices were joined and our service

17 was -- we had a common service, so only one telephone. So it was also our

18 telephone.

19 Q. Was there another telephone on that floor that was operational?

20 A. No.

21 Q. The offices of the work duty service, did they have an operational

22 telephone?

23 A. As far as I know, they did not.

24 Q. Very well. Thank you. Now, concerning the telephone, do you know

25 whether other people came, whether they asked to use it? How was it used?

Page 14158

1 A. Since that was one of very few telephones that was operational, a

2 lot of citizens came in requesting to use it, and it was used by the

3 citizens in order for them to be able to talk to their relatives and so

4 on. I introduced a rule that -- allowing them to use it early in the

5 morning for brief phone calls, before we started working. We received a

6 lot of requests, and I think that all of those who applied to us asking to

7 use the phone were granted permission, but only for brief calls.

8 Q. Why only brief calls?

9 A. Because we had many requests and our time was limited. And they

10 were allowed to use the phone, but due to numerous demands and a limited

11 amount of time, the calls were brief. They could only call briefly their

12 relatives and give basic information.

13 Q. Did members of all three ethnic communities come to use the phone?

14 A. Yes, they did. I can tell you that Kemal Omeragic used to come

15 often to call his brother, because his brother Fikret was wounded and was

16 in a hospital in Belgrade. He used to come every day to make phone calls

17 to inquire about his brother, who later died. Not only him; there were

18 other people.

19 Q. What is his ethnicity?

20 A. He's a Muslim.

21 MR. WEINER: Sorry to interrupt. Your Honour, could we have some

22 clarification as to the time period that we're dealing with as to the

23 telephone issue, please?

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well.

25 Yes, Mr. Lukic.

Page 14159

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Will you please respond to this OTP remark? How long did the

3 telephones operate in this way?

4 A. This was some time in April, May, or June, and later there were

5 other telephones that were put into operation, but this was the situation.

6 It was mainly in 1992 that the situation was like this.

7 Q. When you say "1992," you mean until the end of 1992?

8 A. Yes, I mean until the end of 1992.

9 Q. Did you, as the social work centre, get a telephone by the end of

10 that year?

11 A. But we had a telephone there at all times.

12 Q. I meant apart from that one telephone which you had, did you get

13 any other connections?

14 A. No. We just had that one.

15 Q. Mr. Maslic, shall we now turn to the activities which you

16 undertook then? What were the first tasks of your social work centre and

17 what is it that you did during those first days?

18 A. In view of the very unfavourable situation which obtained in town,

19 there was no electricity, in other words, there was no water, and there

20 was no supplies of the basic staples or basic foods, and of course the

21 population that was in town was in dire need of such foodstuffs. We had

22 been given data earlier, information from the centre of social work, from

23 the beneficiaries of the services of the social work centre. I don't

24 think I need explain who these were. We had quite a lot of children who

25 needed milk. On the basis of such preliminary records which had existed

Page 14160

1 already in the centre, previous, previous records, and the new records

2 which were compiled by our own activists of the Red Cross chapter, we

3 actually identified the requirements in milk and bread.

4 There was no milk to be had in the local stores. What we did was

5 to organise the milking of cows in an agricultural estate and the

6 transportation of thus obtained milk by a Red Cross vehicle, which we did

7 twice a day, in the morning and in the evening. The collected milk was

8 then distributed by points, at four points in town, where the need was the

9 most acute. We distributed the milk according to the quantity available

10 at the time. However, as the number of those who needed milk and bread

11 was very large and increased, in the first -- in the initial period we --

12 the distribution took place in a rather -- was carried out in a rather

13 spontaneous, so to speak, fashion so there were some abuses on the part of

14 some of the citizens, and other people were unable to obtain or could --

15 never -- their turn never came to get some milk actually objected. So

16 that after a couple of days of such practices, I sat down with my

17 associates and the activists of the Red Cross chapter to address the

18 situation, and we agreed to control the distribution of the milk to -- of

19 the -- to the users --

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic, can we avoid these details that are not

21 necessary?

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I let the witness describe this

23 because I intend to introduce a number of documents which specifically

24 refer to the distribution of milk and bread and the initial organisation

25 of that distribution, and some reference to this has already been made in

Page 14161

1 the Prosecutor's case.

2 Q. But, Mr. Maslic, we shall now quickly review a number of

3 documents.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have prepared a number

5 of documents, and I wish to now present to the Chamber these documents

6 which we wish to ask Mr. Maslic about. Every document has been internally

7 marked to correspond with that of the Prosecutor, so the order will

8 actually follow the marks, which I will always initially indicate.

9 The first document which I wish to be shown to the witness bears

10 the internal mark BDB 4/3. Will the usher please show this document to

11 the witness.

12 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I presume, actually, that's an error in the

13 transcript here on line 6, where it says "BDB" it's P, P for Peter or

14 whatever; right?

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes. My initial consideration was

16 actually pre-defence brief that is why I actually put these initials.

17 Q. Mr. Maslic, are you familiar with this document?

18 A. Yes, it is. Yes. It's --

19 Q. It speaks for itself, and I will only ask you briefly: Whose

20 signature does the document bear?

21 A. The president of the then Red Cross chapter, Mr. Milorad

22 Mihajlovic.

23 Q. I can see your name under serial number 1. Were you an activist

24 of the Red Cross at that time?

25 A. Yes, before the war and at that time.

Page 14162

1 Q. Can you tell us what the ethnic composition was of the persons who

2 are on the list?

3 A. It is different. You can see that they are Muslims and Croats and

4 Serbs there. Of course, I can indicate these individuals as well.

5 Q. No. Just count them. Tell us how many Serbs, Croats, and Muslims

6 were there.

7 A. There are 11 Muslims, and the Croats also?

8 Q. Yes, of course.

9 A. Anka Jovanovic. One Croat.

10 Q. Is Marko Nogic a Muslim or a Croat?

11 A. I don't know. I think he's a Croat.

12 Q. Just tell me: Next to this name under serial number 18, there is

13 the indication minor. How old was this person?

14 A. I don't know how old he was, but I know that he was under age and

15 that he was an activist of the Red Cross, that he had been an activist of

16 the Red Cross also before, and that he had been very active and very

17 dedicated, and that is why we also recruited him to work for the Red Cross

18 at that time.

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If there are no objections, I wish to

20 tender this as an exhibit, this document as an exhibit.

21 MR. WEINER: No objection, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number?

23 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D85/3 and D85/3 ter for the

24 B/C/S.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: If I may as well ask the Prosecution, because they

Page 14163

1 received all these documents: Are there any which --

2 MR. WEINER: No objection to any of the documents.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. So we'll simply be going ahead with

4 numbers.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The document marked PDB 23/3, please.

6 This is a list of women going to Pisari to milk cows on the 9th of June,

7 1992.

8 Q. Mr. Maslic, are you familiar with this document?

9 A. Yes, I am.

10 Q. Previously you referred to the organising of the milking of cows

11 via this agricultural estate, but what is this specific document about?

12 Does the civil defence staff organise any other activities relevant to

13 the -- I mean, sorry, the staff of the Red Cross relevant to the milking

14 of cows?

15 A. We drew up this list because the Ministry of Defence issued a

16 decision to the effect that such persons were to be recruited for this

17 particular activity in order to enable them to go and milk the cows in

18 this place outside the city without any hindrance. This was intended as a

19 pass for them. And, on the other hand, the vehicle of the Red Cross was

20 at the same time used as a civil defence vehicle, and the driver was Ismet

21 Hurtic. So that we submitted this list to both the civil defence staff

22 and to the police in order for them to be able to monitor the transport --

23 the movement of the vehicle in question and also to know what individuals

24 were concerned.

25 Q. Why was this to be submitted to the -- why was it submitted to the

Page 14164

1 secretariat of defence?

2 A. Because it was the secretariat that had issued the decision

3 assigning these people to their respective work duties. These people --

4 these individuals had the obligation to work on the basis of the decision.

5 Q. Will you look at this list? These are all women, as far as I can

6 see. Are there members of all the three nations here?

7 A. As far as I can see, there are. There are Muslim and Serbian --

8 Serb and Croatian women.

9 Q. What then happened to that milk? Who distributed the milk

10 afterwards?

11 A. I do not understand the question.

12 Q. What happened to the milk which was milked? Was it used privately

13 or what?

14 A. No. The milk would be transported in special containers, in

15 special barrels, and it would then be distributed to different points in

16 town. There were four such milk distribution points in town.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If there are no objections, can we be

18 allocated a number for this documents. And we hear that there are no

19 objections.

20 THE REGISTRAR: [Previous translation continues] ... 86/3 and

21 D86/3 ter.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] There is another document. Can the

23 registrar please repeat this number? It is not on the record.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Certainly. It is D86/3 and D86/3 ter.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Another document which I marked PDB

Page 14165

1 13A/3, 13B/3 and 13C/3 and I believe that in view of the content of these

2 documents, these are very useful and they should be held under a single

3 number because this involves the distribution of milk by city section, and

4 they are of the same date, which is the 23rd of May, 1992. And in the

5 right top-hand corner you have an indication of the section of the city

6 involved. I will remind the Chamber that there is a document which has

7 already been tendered. I believe it is 47, this district 4 [as

8 interpreted], I believe.

9 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Lukic. Could you maybe just look

10 at the transcript there, page 55, line 1? You say: "I believe it is 47,

11 this district 4." Maybe you could just clarify that, just briefly,

12 because I'm not too sure what you mean.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It was mis-recorded in the record.

14 This is all my fault by wishing to expedite the procedure perhaps. What I

15 wanted to say was -- document, an identical document which referred to the

16 4th district in the city of the same date, the 22nd of May, has already

17 been tendered as document marked - and I will tell you exactly in a

18 minute - it was in respect of the witness Hajra Drljacic, and the mark of

19 the document was D44/3. And I did not consider it necessary for us now to

20 show that particular document to the witness. It is part of the same

21 group of documents, and I didn't want to tender all the documents with

22 Mrs. Drljacic then.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Mr. Maslic, please look at it. Do you have all the three city

Page 14166

1 districts, city sections, before you?

2 A. Yes. I'm familiar with this document.

3 Q. Look at the second and the third document, the first, the second,

4 and the third documents. What do these documents show?

5 A. These lists demonstrate, first of all, what persons were using

6 bread and milk, the number of household members, the quantity of bread,

7 the quantity of milk. These quantities were determined according to set

8 criteria, which I've already described in my previous part of this

9 statement, and we drew up lists like these on a regular basis and informed

10 thereon the Executive Board of the Municipal Assembly.

11 Q. Please take a quick look at the list. I'm interested in the

12 national, the ethnic composition of the persons on these lists and whether

13 there are any -- the predominating members of any particular nationality.

14 A. You can conclude on the basis of all these four lists that the

15 users of these foodstuffs were, as a rule, most of them were Muslims,

16 which was only logical, because it was predominantly Muslims who lived in

17 town. The Muslims lived, as a rule, in town and were unable to obtain

18 such foods in other ways.

19 Q. As regards this district number 3 under serial number 15 in the

20 list, do you know who these were?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Were there any relation to Mr. Salih Hibilic [phoen]?

23 A. I believe that this was his sister.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If there are no objections, if there

25 are no objections, could we be assigned a number by the registrar, please,

Page 14167

1 for these three documents, and they can be then tendered then

2 cumulatively. Just to correct my question, the actual name of the person

3 in line 56 [sic] was Ibrahim Salkic, page 56, line 15.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the numbers?

5 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D87/3, A, B, and C. Thank you.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Which one will be A, B?

7 THE REGISTRAR: The first list marked by counsel is 13A/3. He has

8 maybe a number 65/92, is A. D87/3A. The list with number 66/92 will be

9 B. And the one with number 67/92 will be C.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Can you proceed?

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Mr. Maslic, after this first distribution of milk and bread in

13 May, did any problems arise over the distribution, and could you very

14 briefly tell us about those problems?

15 A. Yes. I said that at first there were some problems because the

16 demand was high and the quantities of milk were small, so we had to

17 establish certain criteria on the basis of which we would focus on people

18 who were really in need and just those needs to the available quantities.

19 Q. And what were the criteria?

20 A. The criteria were, and with my associates, I relied most on the

21 law on social welfare and the law on child care, child welfare. We gave

22 priority to the elderly and the sick and the children, that is, to those

23 persons who had no income of their own, so that the social factor had the

24 highest priority.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown Exhibit

Page 14168

1 D43/3, please.

2 Q. Are you familiar with this document?

3 A. Yes, I am. I've spoken about it.

4 Q. Did you sign this document?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. I see the date is the end of June, 1992?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And were these criteria observed? Is that how you distributed

9 these staples?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you. We don't need to discuss this document any further.

12 I asked you about your centre, and now I'll ask you about what the

13 Red Cross did in those first days, specifically how it distributed

14 humanitarian aid, not only in the first days of the war but throughout the

15 war. What humanitarian aid actually meant, how it arrived, and how was it

16 distributed?

17 A. As time passed, the needs became ever greater, and the stocks in

18 the Red Cross warehouses became smaller. So it was essential to engage

19 all the activists of the Red Cross and all others who wanted to assist to

20 provide as much aid as possible so as to ensure essential foodstuffs.

21 Before the war reached Samac municipality, there was a number of refugees

22 already from Croatia, and in the warehouse there was some aid, some

23 supplies, which I assume got there from the Red Cross of Bosnia and

24 Herzegovina. But these were small quantities that were quite insufficient

25 for such a large number of inhabitants. At the time, within the framework

Page 14169

1 of the centre and the Red Cross, we organised ourselves in the form of

2 several commissions or services - the name really doesn't matter, whatever

3 we liked to call them - and one of these commissions had the task of

4 collecting humanitarian aid, which meant going to Belgrade, to the Red

5 Cross of Yugoslavia headquarters. And it also implied appealing to our

6 own citizens' donors who were ready to contribute. So another group of

7 people were in charge of the distribution of that aid. And the third

8 group or service was in charge of health care.

9 I have to point out that Samac municipality is one of the

10 municipalities of Bosnia and Herzegovina which had a very pronounced

11 problem with endemic nephritis. It was second in Bosnia, and just before

12 the war a haemodialysis centre had been built in Samac, and in that

13 centre, dialysis treatment was provided for about 100 patients, who would

14 visit the centre three times a week for treatment. The reserves --

15 JUDGE MUMBA: We've already got evidence on dialysis treatment and

16 that it was endemic in Samac. I don't think the Prosecution are disputing

17 that. The Prosecution, on the dialysis treatment?

18 MR. WEINER: No, no dispute.

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I only wanted to refer to this as

20 exhibits have already been admitted into evidence, and this witness was

21 directly involved in ensuring the equipment and in providing the devices.

22 And you remember perhaps that in the defence case of Mr. Simic, there was

23 a document signed by him, so I wanted to touch upon the activities linked

24 to that particular problem.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just wanted to clarify the

Page 14170

1 problem, because it was far more difficult to ensure dialysis treatment

2 than food.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic. Simply going directly to the

4 documents without telling us how many patients were there, how many times

5 they received this treatment.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honour.

7 Could the witness be shown document D109/1 so he could comment on

8 it and refer to it. It is a report on the activities of the Red Cross

9 organisation and the hospital in collecting aid for the haemodialysis

10 centre.

11 Q. Mr. Maslic, I think you know this document. It is

12 self-explanatory, so you don't need to summarise it. Just please tell

13 us: After this visit you made to Belgrade, because obviously you were one

14 of the authors of this document, what happened? Who did you have contact

15 with over there and what were the consequences of that trip that you made

16 to Belgrade?

17 A. Yes, I am familiar with this document, and it speaks of one of a

18 series of my visits to the Red Cross of Yugoslavia and the contacts --

19 together with doctors who were working in the hospital at the time, and

20 this was one of the problems that we addressed with the World Health

21 Organisation. They had their offices in Belgrade. And that is when I met

22 Dr. Warry [phoen]. He was the head of the office there and he had heard

23 of the problem with dialysis in Samac, probably from the Red Cross of

24 Yugoslavia. And on that occasion, that is, on the occasion of our visit

25 with Dr. Warry, he said he could do nothing to assist these patients

Page 14171

1 because the World Health Organisation dealt exclusively with the problems

2 of the injured and wounded in the war, that these were chronic patients,

3 and according to their rules, they could not assist them. However, he

4 gave me some hope and said that his associates would come to visit Samac

5 to see what the situation was for themselves and that he would raise the

6 issue at a higher level. And indeed, a couple of days later a delegation

7 did arrive of his associates. They brought with them at the time some

8 dialysis material. And as far as I know, from then on a system was

9 established of the providing supplies for dialysis via Vrsac Hemo farm.

10 I think that is the name of the factory manufacturing dialysis equipment.

11 Q. Before the break, just one more brief question. Regarding the

12 distribution of humanitarian aid, were there any problems with the

13 distribution, certain unevenness in distribution at the level of local

14 communities? Was anything done to address the problem?

15 A. Yes, there were sporadic problems would arise, people that were

16 dissatisfied. They wanted more. And sometimes certain activists did not

17 give them the aid intended for them. But it is only logical that such

18 problems would arise, in view of such a large number of beneficiaries.

19 But they were addressed, and my associates and myself would get involved

20 and remove the problems.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think this is the appropriate time

22 for the break as we are moving on to another topic now.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We will have our break and continue at 1805.

24 --- Recess taken at 5.46 p.m.

25 --- On resuming at 6.06 p.m.

Page 14172

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I should now like to

3 examine briefly with the witness the locations of some buildings on a map

4 that we have used in this case, and I would also like the map that has the

5 number D27/3 as the identification number to be given an official exhibit

6 number. You will probably remember that after Esad Dagovic said that

7 there were certain inaccuracies on that map, the Trial Chamber asked me to

8 obtain authentification of that map, and I addressed the republican

9 administration for Geodesia and I received the expert opinion of that

10 institution, and I have already provided the Prosecution with a copy of

11 this map, together with the expert opinion on it. I have the original,

12 with the stamp. I can provide Your Honours with a copy and an official

13 translation. In my view, there are two minor discrepancies, and I have

14 discussed this with the Prosecution and they have no objection that the

15 map that we have been using should be admitted into evidence. So I have

16 five copies of the map. The expert opinion of the administration and the

17 official English translation. So you will see the discrepancies that they

18 have identified, namely, they believe that the buildings were in a larger

19 scale than the real situation, and there is a small blind alley that

20 hasn't been drafted on the map. They have given me their official map,

21 which is very clumsy for you, since it is about two metres large, and I

22 think it would be very inconvenient for use in court, but I hope that with

23 this expert opinion there should be no problems with this map. And Mr. Di

24 Fazio is familiar with all this, and I don't think there should be any

25 difficulties.

Page 14173

1 I would also like to hand Your Honours the original, with the

2 stamp of the institution, because on the copy the stamp is not visible.

3 So I have the original text in the B/C/S version with the stamp on it.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, when I spoke with

5 Mr. Lukic - he may be able to set us straight - I thought there was a

6 problem with the location of the Municipal Assembly as depicted on this

7 map. That could be important. So I think if Mr. Lukic could explain the

8 mistake made with respect to the Municipal Assembly, we should be clear

9 about that. Other than that, I've got -- the Prosecution has no problems

10 with the map being produced into evidence once that issue is clarified.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It can be seen from this report that

12 the building DPO, which is in fact the building of the Municipal Assembly,

13 if you look at it on the map, it has been marked in Marsala Tita Street,

14 and according to the report of this administration, that building

15 shouldn't be there, but it should be to the left of the hotel. So the

16 hotel is across the street, and it should be next to the hotel. That is

17 their observation that they have made. No. The mistake that they have

18 identified on this map.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have it on the ELMO perhaps? And if the

20 witness is going to point --

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May I approach the ELMO, please? Do

22 you wish me to show it on the map? Or perhaps the witness can explain

23 it. Maybe that would be the best.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The witness can explain it.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 14174

1 Q. Mr. Maslic, will you look at the map, please.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. The building of the SUP.

4 A. That's right.

5 Q. And next to that building, it says "SO," doesn't it? Is that the

6 Municipal Assembly building? And next to that building, it says "DPO," to

7 the left.

8 A. That's right.

9 Q. According to the report of this land surveying administration, the

10 DPO building should be next to the old hotel.

11 A. That's right.

12 Q. And the Municipal Assembly building is correctly marked next to

13 the SUP building. That is quite clear.


15 JUDGE MUMBA: So can the witness leave the pointer on the correct

16 place where the Municipal Assembly building should be.

17 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Is it to the left or the right?

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Because by the time the translation comes in, the

19 pointer is off.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here. This is here.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: We were told that it's next to the hotel. What is

22 next to the hotel?

23 JUDGE LINDHOLM: To the left.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] There's no dispute regarding the

25 Municipal Assembly building. It is this building marked with the letters

Page 14175

1 "SO" that the witness is pointing to right now. That is the Municipal

2 Assembly building, and it is correctly marked. Next to it, to the left of

3 it, the building marked DPO should be next to the hotel. Or rather, the

4 marking of the hotel is next to it.

5 Q. Could the witness confirm this?

6 A. Yes, it's here.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps we could mark it with numbers

8 to make things quite clear.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: It's clear with the Prosecution, isn't it?

10 MR. WEINER: Yes. No problem. The only issue that we have is,

11 D27/3 has been marked by one witness, the exact same map, D21/4 has been

12 marked by a second witness. And if we're going to introduce this third

13 map, even though they're all the same, they should reference each other, I

14 think it should be given a separate number as opposed to D27/3.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It should have a different number.

16 MR. WEINER: That's all. No other objections, Your Honour.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Are we going to have a new number or

18 are we going to use the same number, D27/3?

19 JUDGE MUMBA: No. We're going to have a new number.

20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could you leave the map with the

22 witness, please.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: We've seen the original of the document. We don't

24 need it. We'll do with copies.

25 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D88/3, and the explanation

Page 14176

1 will be A and ter. Thank you. For the B/C/S. Thank you.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Mr. Maslic, on this map we shall now try to find some buildings.

4 Perhaps for the benefit of His Honour Judge Lindholm, who asked you where

5 the building you lived in was, could you mark with the number 1 the

6 building that you lived in and that you're still living in, I assume, in

7 Pere Bosica Street.

8 A. As far as I can see, this building has not been marked on the map,

9 and it is here.

10 Q. So just put a number 1, please.

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. That's fine. Could you please mark the pensioners' home.

13 A. Here.

14 Q. And put a number 2 there, please.

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. Could you please tell us --

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Do you mean the pensioners' centre? Because we got

18 "the pensioners' home".

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I said home, the one the witness

20 worked in.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: [Previous translation continues] ... there's been

22 reference to a place called the Spomen Dom, which appears at length

23 throughout the --

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's quite a different matter.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: [Previous translation continues] ... about that.

Page 14177

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This is just the right moment for us

2 to ask the witness to show us where this Spomen Dom is and to mark it with

3 number 3.

4 A. Here it is.

5 Q. Thank you very much. Which means memorial centre.

6 Tell me, please: Was there a Red Cross warehouse? How many there

7 were? And if you could locate those Red Cross warehouses, that is, the

8 warehouses of the local Red Cross?

9 A. In view of the fact that the town was shelled very frequently, in

10 fact, daily, we decided to keep the foodstuffs of the Red Cross, the food

11 supplies, in four different locations, for the simple reason that should

12 one warehouse be hit and the food destroyed, something would be left

13 intact. And we had four warehouses within the territory of the city. One

14 was this building, DPO, on the ground floor.

15 Q. Would you mark it with the number 4, please.

16 A. [Marks] Another warehouse was across the road to the pensioners'

17 centre. I think it is DS 17. Across the road here.

18 Q. Put a number 5 there, please.

19 A. There's no building drawn in here. [Marks] And the third

20 warehouse was in the premises of the Velepromet company. No. I'm sorry.

21 Agropromet. Agropromet. So should I put a number 6?

22 Q. Yes, number 6, please.

23 A. [Marks] And number 7 would be the Uzarija company. I think

24 it's here, but it hasn't been drawn in. I think it's here.

25 Q. Just an approximate position will do, a number 7, please.

Page 14178

1 A. [Marks]

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] For the record, shall we say that the

3 witness marked with number 1 the building he lived in; with the number 2,

4 the pensioners' centre; number 3, the Spomen Dom or memorial centre; and

5 number 4, 5, 6, and 7 mark the warehouses of the local Red Cross

6 organisation.


8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We will not need this document any

9 longer.

10 Q. Now a question for the witness: Do you know that in the vicinity

11 of the buildings that you have just marked, some people got killed during

12 shelling?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. When and where?

15 A. As far as I can remember, between the pensioners' hall and the Red

16 Cross warehouse - I don't know what number we used to mark it - a woman, a

17 saleswoman, was killed. I think her name was Refika Pisarevic.

18 Q. How did she die?

19 A. She died during shelling. She was killed by a shell.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Are we going to mark the map marked by

21 the witness?

22 JUDGE MUMBA: I thought we have already numbered it, and the

23 explanation was A.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will now turn to another

25 topic which touches upon the previous one.

Page 14179

1 Q. You've already mentioned shelling, and this is not a disputed fact

2 in this case. How often were shellings -- you've already told us that,

3 but I'm especially interested in May of 1992. Do you remember whether

4 during that period of time there was shelling, and if so, what was the

5 consequence of the shelling with respect to the institution where you

6 worked?

7 A. In May of 1992 the shellings were very frequent, both during

8 daytime and night-time. Life in town became increasingly difficult, and

9 demands were voiced for citizens to be evacuated to leave the city. There

10 were many casualties, and according to some data, most of the civilians

11 and soldiers were killed during that year precisely.

12 I know that during that month women and children left for Serbia.

13 There were many demands for people to leave the town. However, our

14 transportation means were very scarce. This was organised through the

15 civil defence, and requests were sent into the Red Cross. I don't know

16 exactly how many buses had left the city, but I know that a large group of

17 women and children left in an organised fashion, and those who did not

18 leave with them left in their own transportation means.

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I see that Judge Lindholm has a

20 question.

21 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Yes. Excuse me for interrupting you, but on the

22 first line of the answer of the witness, it's page 68, line 25, he says:

23 "In May of 1992, the shellings were very frequent." "Frequent" is not a

24 very exact word. Were they daily, during day and night, and so on? Could

25 you clarify that question?

Page 14180

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. You've heard the question of Judge Lindholm. Could you please

3 clarify that?

4 A. I said that the shellings were very frequent, regardless of

5 whether it was day or night. It was constant.

6 Q. Was it daily?

7 A. Yes, it was.

8 Q. Was the town shelled several times a day?

9 A. Yes, it was. Several times a day.

10 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Thank you.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. So that means that people applied to leave at the Red Cross,

13 whereas the civil defence organised transportation?

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could now the witness be shown another

16 document bearing internal number PDB 12/3? This is a list of refugees who

17 left Bosanski Samac on the 17th of May, 1992. This document was issued by

18 the Crisis Staff of the civil defence.

19 Q. Please take a look at this document. Go over it. Do you know any

20 of the people on this list, and is this in any way connected to what you

21 just told us about evacuations to Serbia?

22 A. Yes. I know the majority of the names.

23 Q. Tell me, please: What is the ethnic composition of people on this

24 list? Can you tell me approximately whether there are members of all

25 three nations listed here?

Page 14181

1 A. Yes, there are members of all three nations here.

2 Q. I was drawn to the name under number 122, Petkovic Goran [as

3 interpreted]. It says here that he was born in 1992. Does this mean that

4 this was somebody just born that year when the evacuation took place, that

5 this was a baby evacuated?

6 A. Yes, I believe that's right.

7 Q. Tell me, please, whether this list pertains to residents of the

8 entire Samac municipality.

9 A. As far as I can see, these are residents of the town itself and

10 residents of villages that were shelled were allowed to leave in an

11 organised fashion as well: Obudovac and other villages.

12 Q. Do you know what was their fate? What status did these people

13 have after their leaving?

14 A. We at the Red Cross were informed that these people were put up

15 with their relatives, if they had such, and those that did not were housed

16 in holding centres, accommodation centres in Yugoslavia.

17 Q. Another clarification. The first line here --

18 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me. This is simply a clarification too.

19 Mr. Lukic, on line 23, page 70, you say you're drawn to the name -- and

20 122, and it's written in the English translation as Petkovic Goran, but

21 122 is obviously a lady, Gordana Sedjic [phoen]. I presume it's 132, but

22 it isn't a Petrovic anyway. It's a Nikolic. So just clarify that the

23 child is that person and not the other one maybe.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's correct. I said 132. I

25 suppose that the interpreters misheard me. This is the person listed

Page 14182

1 under number 132. The name is Goran Nikolic, so that we have no more

2 mistakes here.

3 Q. Mr. Maslic, let's clarify this. This is entitled "The list of

4 refugees." Do you see that?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. When these people were departing, were they citizens of Samac?

7 A. Yes. I suppose that in this list there are some who were refugees

8 from Croatia, but I'm not certain about this. I know a large majority of

9 these people on the list.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Then could this document be tendered

12 into evidence?

13 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibits D89/3 and ter for the B/C/S.

14 Thank you.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mr. Maslic, after this evacuation of citizens to Serbia, was there

17 any pressure exerted on the Red Cross and the civil defence staff in order

18 to organise another evacuation?

19 A. The problems were not solved with this evacuation. On the

20 contrary; after that, the number of citizens applying to leave the town

21 grew after that. They wanted to go wherever it was possible, mostly to

22 Serbia. And I don't think that -- we did not have other organised

23 transports after that, and the reasons for that, as I was informed, was

24 that these people could not find accommodation in Serbia, so that as a

25 result of that, people left as they could, individually, upon receiving

Page 14183

1 permits to leave municipality.

2 Q. Who issued permits for leaving municipality?

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: As Your Honours please, as the transcript stands at

5 the moment, it appears that because -- because they weren't organised

6 transports, that was the reason people couldn't find accommodation in

7 Serbia. It doesn't seem to make much sense as you read it. I wonder if

8 that's what the witness intended to say, and in any event, it's a matter

9 that should be clarified. It's obviously important. What was precisely

10 the reason for their inability to go to Serbia?

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Could you please clarify that?

13 A. I didn't say it in that way. I said that there were several

14 reasons why we did not organise such types of evacuation of the

15 population. One of the reasons was that we couldn't find transportation,

16 and the other one is that these people could not be accommodated in

17 Serbia. They could not accommodate this large number of refugees.

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The witness said that we couldn't

19 organise again that this was the reason why they couldn't organise this

20 evacuation again. However, the residents still applied to leave the town?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Tell me, please: These people who came and applied to leave for

23 Serbia, what was their ethnicity?

24 A. People of all ethnic backgrounds came.

25 Q. Wishing to leave for Serbia?

Page 14184

1 A. Yes, wishing to leave there, for Serbia.

2 Q. I asked you about permits for leaving Samac. Do you know who

3 issued them?

4 A. As far as I remember, they were issued by the police.

5 Q. If somebody wanted to leave then to Croatia or to Gradacac, could

6 one go there without any hindrance?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Why not?

9 A. Because there was a front line there. There was a front line

10 between warring sides, so one couldn't go from one side to the other,

11 regardless of any permits; one couldn't go.

12 Q. Now, tell me, please, something that is not directly linked to

13 those first days of the conflict and for this indictment. Do you know

14 something about whether some illegal or unlawful cases of leaving Samac in

15 an organised way were set up?

16 A. I heard about that, but I don't know much about this.

17 Q. And where were these people leaving to? Where were they going?

18 A. To Serbia.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, it may be clear as between

20 counsel and the witness, but as -- it's certainly not clear to me and I

21 don't think it's very clear as one reads the transcript. First of all,

22 what were these illegal or unlawful cases of leaving Samac? Why were they

23 illegal or unlawful? And what's the relevance or the significance of the

24 fact that they were going to Serbia, unless it's obvious to everyone else,

25 it certainly isn't obvious to me, and I suggest that we should be clear

Page 14185

1 about it.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic. I think we do need clarification.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Yes. Can we clarify this second question. Why did people want to

5 leave Samac and go to Serbia?

6 A. Because the conditions of life became increasingly difficult.

7 Q. Do you know that people forged documents and permits in order to

8 leave Samac?

9 A. This is how I understood your question.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Is this now clear sufficiently for the

11 Prosecutor?

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, thank you.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. We're still in the month of May, and very briefly: Do you know

15 what happened in early May in Odzak municipality? But in a few words,

16 please.

17 A. I know that in the beginning of May in Odzak municipality people

18 were captured, namely, a large -- Serbs, the Serbian population, was

19 captured in large numbers, and these were Serbs who lived in the inhabited

20 places of Novi Grad, Dubica, Trnjak, and the city of Odzak, town of Odzak

21 itself. But mostly these were people from these inhabited places which I

22 listed. So we had a very many demands, requests from members of their

23 families from Samac who were inquiring after their relatives what had

24 happened to these people who were taken prisoner in Odzak municipality,

25 and these are two adjacent municipalities only divided by the river of

Page 14186

1 Bosna.

2 Q. When you say "we," who were these applications sent to?

3 A. I mean the Red Cross.

4 Q. At that time when the Serbs were taken prisoner in Odzak, was

5 there an international institution?

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The answer has not been recorded.

7 When I said -- when I asked, when you say "we" who do you imply; you said

8 the Red Cross, the local Red Cross chapter?

9 A. Yes, that is what I said.

10 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Lukic. I think apart from what

11 you've just clarified, go on to your next question, and I think we need a

12 clarification there, because it says, your question: "At that time when

13 the Serbs were taken prisoner in Odzak, was there any international

14 institution?" You might want to clarify which one you were talking

15 about.

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, that was the question I was

17 going to ask.

18 Q. So after the Serbs were detained in Odzak in May, was there an

19 international institution -- did an international institution visit Samac,

20 or you personally? Which one, when, why?

21 A. In May, the local Red Cross chapter was paid a visit by a lady,

22 Mrs. or Ms., by the name of Kathy. She was a worker of the International

23 Red Cross and she told me then that she had her offices in Tuzla. She

24 also told me that she had been to Odzak and that she was expecting the

25 issue of the captured Serbs in the area of Odzak municipality to be

Page 14187

1 resolved. In which way, and how, that I don't know. But after a couple

2 of days, she came to see me again and she asked for the local Red Cross

3 organisation to get involved in the first exchange that had been agreed

4 between the representatives of -- from Odzak.

5 THE INTERPRETER: And the interpreter did not hear the end of the

6 sentence.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can he repeat the answer?

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Was your last word "Samac"?

10 A. Yes, it was. And Samac. From Odzak and Samac.

11 Q. And what did she do then, at that time? Did she undertake any

12 organising preparations for that exchange? What do you know about the

13 activities of this lady? Will you please tell us.

14 A. As far as I know, she brokered for this first exchange to be

15 indeed carried out. She actually personally attended to that exchange.

16 And she asked for the local Red Cross chapter to also be involved in that

17 activity in order to help her. So it was she who exclusively organised

18 that particular exchange.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, the witness gave evidence

20 that this exchange had been organised by local representatives -- I think

21 the expression was local representatives from Samac and Odzak. If the

22 witness knows who those representatives were, which persons or bodies,

23 then that's obviously of significance in the case, and I think, I suggest

24 to the Chamber that it would be a good idea if we knew exactly who he's

25 talking about, if he knows.

Page 14188

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe that this is more a matter

3 for cross-examination, but I will seek to clarify this with the witness.

4 Q. You said that she organised that exchange. Will you tell us: Was

5 that particular exchange organised by her or by the local authorities in

6 Samac?

7 A. I said that she had organised that exchange but that that exchange

8 was -- had been the result of contacts between the municipality of Samac

9 and representatives of the municipalities of Samac and those of Odzak.

10 But the entire activity, the actual exchange itself, was organised by

11 Ms. Katherine.

12 Q. To respond to the Prosecutor's question, do you know who was it

13 from the Samac -- on behalf of Samac that had contacted the Odzak

14 municipality people who were the actual persons involved?

15 A. I cannot tell you that because I don't know that.

16 Q. Did you go to the communications centre in that period, during

17 those days?

18 A. No, not in those days.

19 Q. Tell me: Do you know what it was that she specifically did in

20 Samac? How did she liaise with the people? How did she get in touch with

21 the actual people who were supposed to be exchanged?

22 A. I do not know exactly who it was that she negotiated with and

23 agreed on the exchange and what the names of the people who were to be

24 exchanged are. What I do know is that she came to the local Red Cross

25 chapter and that she sought assistance for that activity to be carried

Page 14189

1 out.

2 Q. Do you know that she went to see detention units in Samac at that

3 time?

4 A. I don't know that.

5 Q. Are you aware of the existence of detention units in Samac at that

6 time?

7 A. I've heard about those. I heard about those.

8 Q. And what was the concrete assistance that she asked you for, you

9 individually?

10 A. In view of the fact that a number of old, elderly, and infirm

11 people were supposed to be exchanged on that particular occasion and in

12 view of the fact that that exchange was to take place under very

13 unfavourable conditions, which is on the bank of the river and that we

14 needed to ensure the basic prerequisites for that exchange to take place,

15 namely, that we had to ensure stretchers to carry the old and infirm

16 people, and there were some wounded people as well, and so ensure the

17 necessary -- to provide the necessary boats to cross the river, as well as

18 arrange for the welcome, the reception of the people that would be

19 exchanged. So it was in this particular respect that both the civil

20 defence and the Red Cross representatives actually contributed and helped

21 to this particular exercise.

22 Also people from the health service provided care, and the

23 ambulance and other medical services required.

24 Q. Do you remember where this exchange took place?

25 A. The exchange took place on the River Bosna, specifically in the

Page 14190

1 village of Zasavica.

2 Q. Do you remember the approximate date?

3 A. I cannot recall the exact date. It was in May.

4 Q. In 1992?

5 A. 1992.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have an intervention, page 79, line

7 15. The witness said this particular exchange, and the word used is

8 "exercise."

9 Q. You said that there were old people, infirm people. You're

10 referring to people who were exchanged or people who were both leaving and

11 those who were coming? So you were there on the spot, on the scene; is

12 that not so? Describe the situation, please.

13 A. At the request of Ms. Katherine, who asked for help from the local

14 Red Cross, I personally, not wishing to expose any of my associates to any

15 risks, I personally crossed the River Bosna in a boat to the other side.

16 Q. And you said that you had Red Cross equipment. Did you want to

17 cross to the other bank with her or was there a decision or a request to

18 that effect?

19 A. I did not want to. It's just that I wanted to accommodate her

20 request, given the effort that she was making and given the risk that she

21 was taking. So I wanted to help her carry out that particular exchange

22 successfully, with all the help that I could give her.

23 Q. So without leading you, it was she who asked you to accompany her

24 in the boat?

25 A. Yes.

Page 14191

1 Q. Thank you. How did the actual exchange proceed? What did it look

2 like? The Trial Chamber is aware of the fact that this was actually the

3 first exchange which took place there after the beginning of the war. So

4 how did it go?

5 A. Ms. Katherine told me that certain principles had been agreed

6 upon, upon which this was to be done in the safest way possible. She told

7 me that they had agreed with the other side that they were to provide one

8 boat with the crew and that we were to provide another one, or the other

9 one. As far as I know, they in the civil defence found such a boat and

10 took it to the necessary spot. When we came to the river, on the other

11 bank across the river, we saw that representatives from Odzak had already

12 come there, but only uniformed soldiers, troops. I did not see any

13 representatives of the Red Cross. And Mrs. Katherine objected to that,

14 saying that the agreement had not been abided by.

15 Q. To whom did she object? To whom did she address her objections?

16 A. She objected to the representatives there who had come in uniform.

17 Q. Please clarify for the Trial Chamber: Who are they who is the

18 opposite, the other side, and who was in uniform?

19 A. I'm referring to the representatives from Odzak, to people

20 representing Odzak.

21 Q. Were these soldiers in uniforms of the Croatian Defence Council?

22 A. Yes, they were. With this boat that we had brought there, Ms.

23 Katherine and I crossed the Bosna River and we met with the

24 representatives from Odzak. When she asked them why they hadn't brought a

25 boat there, they replied that they didn't have one. However, they

Page 14192

1 asserted that security would be guaranteed to all persons who would be

2 exchanged on that occasion, as well as to representatives of the Red

3 Cross, and that is indeed the way it was. The boat could seat five to six

4 people, so we took five people from Odzak in one direction and then five

5 people in the other direction. The conditions were extremely

6 unfavourable. Access to the river was very forbidding, so that we had to

7 carry people coming from Odzak to the bank on stretchers. And there were

8 some people who had been wounded, who were wounded in the legs.

9 Q. In what condition were the people who were crossing from the Samac

10 side to the Odzak side?

11 A. As far as I could see, as I could see, no one was taken on a

12 stretcher from that direction, but these were also elderly people, elderly

13 people leaving.

14 Q. Did all these people from Samac cross over to the Odzak side?

15 Were there any problems? And what was the principle of the exchange, or

16 rather, what number had been had agreed to cross and to leave and to come?

17 A. Ms. Katherine, as far as I recollect, referred to the figure of

18 100 persons -- 100 to 100.

19 Q. Please explain, 100 for 100. What does that mean?

20 A. 100 were to come and 100 were to leave. She also insisted that

21 everybody had to state their views, to declare whether they indeed wanted

22 to cross, and that referred to both groups on both banks.

23 Q. Did they state their views?

24 A. Yes, they said. They stated their options.

25 Q. Did all of them cross? Did all of them make the crossing?

Page 14193

1 A. I remember ten people from Samac did not cross over to the other

2 side. They stated that they did not wish to go and they didn't cross.

3 Q. And from the Odzak side?

4 A. They didn't bring ten people from the other side, so it was 90 for

5 90.

6 Q. Did they explain why they didn't send the ten people?

7 A. I had no occasion to ask them that, because I didn't see them.

8 But Ms. Katherine spoke to them, and I don't know what was the answer that

9 she received from them.

10 Q. We will be talking about the International Red Cross in some

11 detail later on. Did you see Ms. Katherine again in the course of your

12 work and contacts with representatives of the International Red Cross?

13 A. After the exchange that she organised, I saw her only once again,

14 and as far as I have been informed, she left the territory of Bosnia and

15 Herzegovina; not just she, but the International Red Cross. But soon

16 after that, another representative of the Red Cross arrived. As far as I

17 can remember, his name was Mattias Kind [phoen].

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I think it's time for us

19 to adjourn.

20 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Before we adjourn, I would like to have an

21 explanation of a part in the text which I don't have before me now in the

22 transcript, but it runs like this: The access to the bank of the river

23 was most forbidden. What does it mean? It's up on, I guess, on line 9 or

24 10 or something like that, on the foregoing page. What does it mean?

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I assume, Your Honour, that the error

Page 14194

1 was in the transcript. The witness can explain, however.

2 Q. What did you say regarding access to the river?

3 A. I said it was difficult to have access to the bank, and also the

4 separation line was right there. One side of the bank was held by one

5 side, and the other by the other. So I said that it was forbidding, not

6 forbidden.

7 JUDGE LINDHOLM: By the front line. Okay. Thank you.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The River Bosna was in fact the

9 demarcation line.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well. We'll adjourn until tomorrow at 1415

11 hours.

12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.,

13 to be reconvened on Friday, the 17th day of

14 January 2003, at 2.15 p.m.