Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14195

1 Friday, 17 January 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon. Case number IT-95-9-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Miroslav Tadic, and Simo Zaric.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic. You're continuing.

10 MR. LUKIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours.


12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 Examined by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]

14 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Maslic. Can you hear me well?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. We will continue where we left it off yesterday, and I will put

17 you a follow-up question, a follow-up question to the questions of Judge

18 Lindholm, where you said that the Bosna River was the separation line,

19 separating two warring sides. Can you tell me: What were the two warring

20 sides that the Bosna River divided?

21 A. The separation line divided the HVO forces and the HV forces, on

22 one side, and on the other side were the forces of our army.

23 Q. You have also said that this was organised exclusively by the Red

24 Cross, and this is what distinguished this exchange. The later exchanges

25 in which you participated, were they also organised by the International

Page 14196

1 Red Cross?

2 A. As far as I can remember, the International Red Cross did not

3 organise these later exchanges but did participate in them, as a general

4 rule.

5 Q. Did you in fact, during those exchanges, get to know the

6 principals that the International Red Cross used to organise those

7 exchanges? Was that the first time that you had an opportunity to

8 familiarise yourself with them?

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, the witness said that the

11 International Red Cross did not organise --

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Your microphone. Yes.

13 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Excuse me for interrupting you, but --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Judge Lindholm, please.

15 JUDGE LINDHOLM: On side number 1, line 23, the last words are:

16 "Of our army." What do you mean by that expression? Because your

17 community was a mixed community. What do you mean by "our army"?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had in mind the Yugoslav People's

19 Army.

20 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Thank you.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Di Fazio, you were raising a point.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. My microphone wasn't working before. It is

23 now, and I apologise. Furthermore, I understand that we don't have our

24 LiveNote working, and if that could be rectified, that would assist us.

25 But in any event, my objection was simply that the witness said

Page 14197

1 that it wasn't organised by the International Red Cross. And then I think

2 Mr. Lukic put to the witness, within a question or two -- yes: "Did you

3 in fact during those exchanges get to know how the principals that the

4 International Red Cross used to organise those exchanges?" Now, that's

5 incorrect. The witness said they weren't, they were organised locally and

6 the Red Cross participated. So that's important to note and I request

7 that Mr. Lukic phrase his questions in such a way that it follows what the

8 witness has said.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well. And maybe the technical booth can assist

10 you with your laptops.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe that this is an

13 interpretation mistake. I asked the witness about the later exchanges,

14 and by that I meant the ones that followed that first exchange. And then

15 I asked the witness whether in those later exchanges the principles that

16 they had learned from the International Red Cross were used. I will tell

17 you what the witness said yesterday, page 26, line 21 [In English]:

18 [Previous translation continues] ... "to get involved in the first

19 exchange." [Interpretation] And then, on page 77, line 11: [In English]

20 [Previous translation continues] ... sorry. [No interpretation] [In

21 English] Local Red Cross organisation --

22 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me. We don't seem to be getting

23 translation here into English.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm not receiving any either, if Your Honours

25 please.

Page 14198

1 [Defence counsel confer]

2 JUDGE MUMBA: I think it should be all right now. Maybe you can

3 start again, Mr. Lukic.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will repeat what I have quoted. I

5 will now quote from page 77, which is important to me, due to the

6 objection from the Prosecutor. [In English] [Previous translation

7 continues] ... "attended to that exchange, and she asked for the local Red

8 Cross chapter to also be involved in the activity in order to help her."

9 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Lukic. We don't have any person's

10 name. Is this the person that the witness yesterday was calling

11 Ms. Katherine or Ms. Kathy? Because it isn't coming up here.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. When you were explaining this yesterday, you had in mind

14 Ms. Katherine from the International Red Cross, isn't that so?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And she is the person that organised that first exchange?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And after that --

19 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Lukic. Just to get it clear. Now

20 with this question, your question: "And she is the person that organised

21 that first exchange"? I think this the point that Mr. Di Fazio has just

22 raised. Was it the International Committee of the Red Cross who organised

23 the exchange or was it the local personnel, the local Red Cross? And I

24 think that's what we need to get clear here.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I was about to clarify that as well.

Page 14199

1 Q. So that first exchange that took place in Zasavica along the banks

2 of the river in Zasavica, who organised that first exchange?

3 A. The first exchange on the River of Bosna in the village of

4 Zasavica was organised by the International Red Cross, personally by Ms.

5 Katherine.

6 JUDGE WILLIAMS: If I could just ask a subsidiary question to

7 that. If it was organised by Ms. Katherine for the International

8 Committee of the Red Cross and she was on the side of the border in

9 Bosanski Samac area, who was her counterpart? Was there another person

10 acting for the International Committee of the Red Cross on the other side

11 of the border?

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Could you please explain that?

14 A. As far as I know, what she said was that she had contacted the

15 representatives from Odzak and arranged this. Who did she arrange the

16 mechanism of the exchange, I don't know, but I know what she asked from

17 the local Red Cross in Samac, and I know that we abided by her requests

18 and acted pursuant to her requests to provide everything that was

19 necessary for that exchange, and by that I am first and foremost implying

20 the medical team, stretchers, ambulance vehicles, a boat.

21 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I apologise, Mr. Lukic, for intervening once

22 again, but I think it might be important for us to know who Ms. Katherine

23 exactly was. Presumably, if she was a representative of the ICRC, we

24 would have more details about her than simply to know that she was Ms.

25 Kathy or Ms. Katherine. Presumably the ICRC in Geneva would have her on

Page 14200

1 their books and we would have some more knowledge. Not to ask this

2 witness that, but I think it would be important to have more information

3 than just "Ms. Katherine, Ms. Kathy."

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would be very pleased, Your Honour,

5 if the Defence were in the position to give you more information. In the

6 pre-trial stage we had some issues raised regarding the International Red

7 Cross, and that had to do with the arrest of Stevan Todorovic. And at the

8 time, the International Red Cross delivered certain documents in which

9 they informed that they were not authorised to provide any further

10 evidence. I will ask the witness about that and about other individuals

11 that had to do with the Red Cross and that the witness will mention in

12 his further testimony.

13 Q. Do you know anything further about Ms. Katherine?

14 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I'd ask the witness not

15 answer that question just at the moment. This issue is a matter that the

16 Prosecution intended to address you upon at the close of the

17 examination-in-chief and before the cross-examination started, and having

18 now been raised, it would be in the Prosecution's view an opportune moment

19 a good moment to address you on this very issue. And I would like to do

20 so, if you permit us to do so. Mr. Re will address you on it, in the

21 absence of the witness.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: But why don't we proceed with the evidence of the

23 witness and conclude? Because the witness knows some information and his

24 counsel will lead him.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, certainly. I'm talking about the issue of the

Page 14201

1 presence of the Red Cross.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I know. Because it's part of the evidence of

3 this witness.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Would you just give me a moment to confer

5 with my colleague, please?


7 [Prosecution counsel confer]

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. I only raise it because Judge Williams has

11 herself raised the issue of the role of the International Red Cross in

12 this particular exchange and the information available to the parties, and

13 it's because of that that the very issue that we intended to address you

14 on has arisen all of a sudden in the course of the examination-in-chief.

15 So that's the reason why I raised the idea of addressing you now rather

16 than when we had intended to.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: No. I think it's better not to interrupt the

18 evidence of the witness. Let the examination-in-chief come to an end.

19 You can then raise it. If it will require reopening the

20 examination-in-chief, fine.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: Very well.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Otherwise if it's a matter that you can deal with in

23 cross-examination, fine.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: It's a matter of submission, not a matter that I

25 can deal with in cross-examination.

Page 14202

1 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Let's finish the examination-in-chief of

2 the witness.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].

4 Q. Mr. Maslic, do you have any additional information concerning Ms.

5 Katherine? Where was she from? Did she provide any additional

6 information to you?

7 A. I have very little information on that lady. I had at the time --

8 all I know is that she said that her office was in Tuzla and that it

9 covered this area as well. And she was particularly interested in

10 fulfilling her humanitarian mission in that area, in Posavina and in

11 Samac. I don't know anything else concerning her.

12 Q. You also said that the contacts were established between the

13 representatives of Odzak and Samac, since there was a separation line

14 running there, what were these contacts about? Do you know what were the

15 contents? Did it have to do with the ceasefire?

16 A. As far as I remember, it did not pertain to the ceasefire.

17 Q. All right. Now we will go back to another issue, but also remain

18 within that same period of time. The month of May is quite important for

19 our case, due to numerous events.

20 You've mentioned the events in Odzak municipality in May of 1992.

21 We will not go into details, but do you personally know what was the

22 attitude of Mr. Tadic with respect to the events surrounding the Serbs

23 there? Did he have any clear personal attitude regarding that?

24 A. I learned then that Mr. Tadic was born in Novi Grad and that he

25 had a lot of relatives there, close relatives. And he inquired about his

Page 14203

1 relatives who lived in Novi Grad and who, according to the information

2 received, were imprisoned then.

3 Q. Do you have any information concerning some other activities about

4 the lists of the Red Cross that were sent to Belgrade and that pertained

5 the events in Odzak? Can you tell us something about that?

6 A. As far as I know, Mr. Tadic at the time went to Belgrade several

7 times, to the Red Cross of Yugoslavia and some other places.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please.


10 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm not objecting, but it should be made clear, I

11 think, that -- yes. The lists of the Red Cross that were sent to

12 Belgrade. Is the witness talking about the local Red Cross or again the

13 International Committee of the Red Cross? And indeed, throughout the

14 evidence of this witness, whenever possible, if Mr. Lukic could assist by

15 making it absolutely clear which particular Red Cross the witness is

16 talking about.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think my learned colleague and I

18 will devote particular attention to this, but so far whenever I refer to

19 the Red Cross, I always meant the local chapter. When I meant the

20 International Red Cross, I always accentuated that particular fact. But

21 we will be precise hence forth.

22 Q. So please tell us who organised this and how were these lists

23 compiled? What were these lists? Who organised the compiling of these

24 lists? Who were they sent to, et cetera?

25 A. I said that I heard that Mr. Tadic had gone to see the people in

Page 14204

1 the Red Cross of Yugoslavia with lists of Serbs who had been captured in

2 Odzak municipality. Whether he went also to the international -- to the

3 committee of the International Red Cross in Belgrade, that I don't know.

4 What I do know is that he went several times in a bid to seek assistance

5 for the release of the Serbs who had been captured in Odzak municipality.

6 Q. We shall stick to the subject of relations between the

7 International Red Cross and the local Red Cross. After this first

8 exchange - and I will also revert to that subject in a bit more detail

9 later - do you remember about the activities of the International Red

10 Cross? Who came there from this organisation? Who did they see? Who did

11 they meet with and what did they do there?

12 A. After this exchange, I did not see this Ms. Katherine, nor did she

13 come to the local Red Cross chapter. I heard that she had left the area.

14 I don't know why.

15 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me. Mr. Maslic, was this Ms. Katherine

16 acting all alone or was she accompanied by other persons?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I can recall, she came

18 alone in a Red Cross vehicle.

19 JUDGE WILLIAMS: That was actually going to be -- my second

20 question was going to be: How do you know that she was an official

21 representative of the International Committee of the Red Cross

22 headquartered in Geneva, Switzerland?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that because this is how she

24 introduced herself, and she had a vehicle with the marks of the

25 International Red Cross, and she had her business card, which also had the

Page 14205

1 International Red Cross identification mark on it.

2 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. To follow up on the question of Her Honour Judge Williams, did she

5 have an interpreter? Can you recall that?

6 A. No, I cannot recall that she had one.

7 Q. So you started telling us about the other visits. Who came --

8 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Sorry, Mr. Lukic. Just following up on your

9 question, then. If she didn't have an interpreter, Mr. Maslic, was she

10 able to speak in your language to you? Could she speak in Bosnian,

11 Serbian, Croatian?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] She could speak Serbian. She could

13 speak Serbian, nothing to write home about, but we could manage. I could

14 understand what she was saying to me.

15 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you very much.

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Will you please continue.

18 A. After this exchange, I don't know how much time had precisely

19 elapsed, but in my assessment it was quite soon thereafter, a new delegate

20 of the International Committee of the Red Cross came. As far as I can

21 recollect, his name was Matheas Kind or something like that. He had an

22 interpreter. This was a lady by the name of Snjezana, I believe. They

23 had offices -- an office, rather, in Bijeljina. And he came to the local

24 Red Cross chapter proposing to offer assistance, the assistance that he

25 was able to offer us. So during this first encounter, he clarified the

Page 14206

1 role of the International Red Cross and he told us that he would exert

2 efforts within the framework of his mandate and his competencies, so as to

3 render assistance to the citizens, to the citizens who had found

4 themselves in this war-ridden area.

5 He also asked us to get involved as much as possible. That means

6 the local Red Cross people, to draw up adequate lists of people, of

7 citizens who needed help, and added that he would, on his part, attempt to

8 organise the supply of humanitarian relief supplies to the area of Samac

9 municipality as soon as possible. He asked me whether we were receiving,

10 whether we had received any relief supplies from any other agency, and I

11 responded that we had received help from the Red Cross of Yugoslavia. He

12 asked me what was peculiar to the situation in Samac. In view of the fact

13 that the town was partially surrounded, there was a partial encirclement

14 around it, and there was a very small pass, a corridor, through Brcko, and

15 as there were very -- there was very frequent fighting going on there, I

16 told him that what was characteristic, what was peculiar to the situation

17 in Samac was that in Samac we had a chemo-dialysis centre and that we had

18 specific problems in that respect, and also that we had problems -- that

19 our citizens had a problem to communicate with anyone without the area,

20 meaning outside the area of the municipality.

21 He then said to me that he would seek to get involved in all these

22 activities, to help us, and he also told me that the International

23 Committee of the Red Cross had already prepared forms, model forms,

24 through which messages were to be sent, and letters. He explained this in

25 some detail to my associates, namely, that people who had been instructed

Page 14207

1 how they were to write their messages, briefly, succinctly, how they were

2 to be addressed, and who was the actual sender, and that all these data

3 should be indicated, and he explained this in some detail. On that

4 occasion he gave us several hundred of such model forms. After that, on

5 the local Radio Samac, we broadcast that there existed a possibility for

6 all those wishing to communicate, to write to members of their families or

7 to their relatives who had remained outside the area or in different parts

8 of Bosnia and Herzegovina or Croatia, or in the broader area, generally

9 speaking.

10 So after we broadcast this information, people came to the Red

11 Cross office to get these forms. They filled them in --

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic, details, please, are not necessary.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Will you please tell us - it's obviously quite clear to the Trial

15 Chamber that they came there to fill in those forms - just tell us: Who

16 were they given to after having been filled in?

17 A. The filled-in forms remained in the local chapter of the Red

18 Cross. They would be collected there. And Mr. Matheas came there

19 initially two times a week and later once a week, depending on the actual

20 need. He took all these messages and transmitted them to the other side

21 and he brought them from the other side, from Tuzla, from Sarajevo. He

22 brought like messages from other sides.

23 Q. Thank you. Please tell me: Do you know whether these messages

24 which he brought there, what was their content, as a rule? What did

25 people say and what did people write to the people in your area? Do you

Page 14208

1 know that?

2 A. I actually did not examine the content of those messages. I

3 myself wrote in this way to my own relatives. What I was primarily

4 interested in was, of course, what the situation was like where they were

5 and how life was, and things like that. But after this communication link

6 via messages written in this way had been established, I talked to people,

7 and they told me that -- said that people were asking to see them, that

8 their people were asking to see them, for them to come to Gradacac, to

9 Tuzla, to Croatia, and so on and so forth.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone, please.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. I asked you yesterday, and you have already made some reference to

13 this, but now I will repeat. Mr. Maslic, did you know that there was a

14 detention unit or that there were detention units in Samac, and where were

15 they?

16 A. Yes, I heard about those. I heard about detentions, about people

17 having been detained, and according to the information I received in the

18 Territorial Defence Staff and the elementary school and the secondary

19 school.

20 Q. Did you ever go to these institutions while the detainees were

21 being held there?

22 A. I never went into any of those buildings during that period.

23 Q. Do you know that any of your colleagues from the local Red Cross

24 chapter ever went to these institutions?

25 A. Yes. Our volunteers are activists, went to the Red Cross. I

Page 14209

1 apologise. I apologise. Went to the prison. They carried messages there

2 which had been brought by Mr. Matheas. And even though he himself, as

3 far as I had been informed, would personally deliver those messages to

4 people in the detention units.

5 Q. Just a minute. This is my next question: Do you know whether Mr.

6 Matheas, or anybody else from the International Red Cross, ever visited

7 these detention units? Do you have any direct or indirect knowledge of

8 that, so that we could expedite matters?

9 A. I did not talk about this with Mr. Matheas. As far as I know, he

10 had talks conducted in the police, where he asked for permission to go

11 there, and also to conduct some of the activities that he was conducting.

12 But I do know that the activists of the local Red Cross chapter did go

13 there and that they delivered food, and also a medical team would go

14 there, would go there to these prisons.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, again no objection, but it

17 would be a matter of some use to the Prosecution if we could have any

18 names of people who, if the witness can tell us, of course, of these Red

19 Cross activists who delivered food to the prisoners. It might assist us,

20 and of course it will assist you to know, because the names might have

21 cropped up before in the course of the trial.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I thank my learned colleague. This is

24 exactly what I was going to ask. Perhaps this is the right time.

25 Q. So do you know which one of the local Red Cross activists went to

Page 14210

1 the detention units?

2 A. I know that Mr. Vasovic, Svetozar went there; Mrs. Mirka Petkovic;

3 Mrs. Anka Jovanovic. I know that they went to the detention units. And

4 as far as the medical crews are concerned, as far as I can remember, I

5 believe Dr. Stanimirovic went there, the lady doctor, Ruza Brdar Masic,

6 and a doctor whose surname I believe was Fajcinovic, and some other staff

7 also, whose names I do not know, but these were the people that I talked

8 to on that particular score doing the work for the local Red Cross.

9 Q. Do you know about any beatings taking place in these units? Did

10 anyone tell you about any beatings going on in those units?

11 A. I heard from these activists that people had been beaten and that

12 there were traces of beating on the persons there.

13 Q. Did you talk about this with Mr. Matheas? Did he tell you, did

14 he convey to you any of his observations in that particular respect?

15 A. Mr. Matheas did not wish to talk about this. He told me that he

16 was aware of what the extent of the powers of the local Red Cross chapter

17 were but that within his own mandate and the International Red Cross, he

18 would undertake everything in his power for these people to be protected

19 and for these people not to be tormented. What he actually did do is

20 something that I don't know.

21 Q. And now something that has to do with our previous topic, the

22 messages and the searches.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender a few

24 documents. The first one has the internal marking PDB 38/3. It is

25 entitled "The list of persons who are sought by the Red Cross of Samac,

Page 14211

1 June --"

2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters missed the date.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you repeat the date?

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The 5th of August, 1992.

5 JUDGE WILLIAMS: So, Mr. Lukic, in the English version that we

6 have, the English is "list of missing persons"." I take it it's the same

7 document.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. That's the same document,

9 with that translation. And I will now read out the original in B/C/S.

10 "The list of persons who are to be traced."

11 Q. Mr. Maslic, are you familiar with this particular document, or in

12 general with this kind of documents? Who issued this document, and what

13 is the purpose of this document?

14 A. Yes, I am familiar with this document.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, it's somewhat leading, that

16 question. It's already -- because it assumes there were a series of

17 documents. We should be clear, first of all, if this is the only such

18 document that exists or whether or not there were a series of such

19 documents, many of them.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: The way the question was put is like this is just

21 one of --

22 MR. DI FAZIO: It assumes that. It assumes that.


24 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, let's --

25 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm sure you'll clear that up.

Page 14212

1 MR. DI FAZIO: That should not be an assumption that is made and

2 we need to have that clarified.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. I didn't want to put a

4 leading question.

5 Q. Mr. Maslic, can you please tell us: What is this document?

6 A. I started saying that I was familiar with this document and that

7 this wasn't an only document. Almost daily, lists similar to this one

8 were compiled, and at the time we used to read out these lists on the

9 local radio so that the families called or contacted, from the other side,

10 through written messages and inquired about their relatives or friends,

11 and people in this way were traced through the International Red Cross.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If there are no objections, I would

13 like this document to be admitted into evidence.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: We received yesterday that ...

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right. We were told that

16 yesterday.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have a number?

18 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D90/3 and D90/3 ter for the

19 B/C/S.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The following document has an internal

21 mark PDB 52/3. It is somewhat longer, but we will cover it quite

22 quickly. This is a letter with attached document from the Serb Red Cross

23 of Modrica.

24 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Could you repeat the number?

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] PDB 52/3, dated 12th of September,

Page 14213

1 1992. It has several pages, 11 pages.

2 Q. Please take a look at this document. I think that you were shown

3 this document when we were preparing your testimony. Do you know this

4 document from before?

5 A. Yes, I am familiar with this document, and we had similar

6 documents from other municipalities. We tried to supply to the

7 municipality of Modrica, Doboj, Brcko, Bijeljina, and other municipalities

8 similar lists so that they would be familiar with our lists and so that we

9 could try and resolve the tracing requests that had come in. So this is

10 just one document in a series of similar documents.

11 Q. Tell me, please: Once the exchanges started, were similar

12 documents supplied to the other side, and did you have any communication

13 with the other side concerning missing persons?

14 A. At that time, the only mode of communication with the other side

15 was through written messages. Once the contact was established and once

16 the meetings started, then these lists became a daily routine, so that we

17 would receive replies, send in requests, and this was exchanged between

18 our side and the other side.

19 Q. I can see here that this document is addressed to the Serb Red

20 Cross of Bosanski Samac, and underneath it said: "To the service for

21 tracing and exchange." Tell me, please, but very briefly: How many

22 different services existed within your local Red Cross? Tell me, please,

23 that. How many different services you had within your local Red Cross.

24 A. I've already talked about this yesterday. I said that we had

25 several services organised. One was the humanitarian aid service, the

Page 14214

1 other one was for the distribution of the aid. Then we had a tracing

2 service and the medical service. We called them services.

3 Q. Yes, that's right. That's what you told us yesterday. Now,

4 please take a look at this document. And we can see that there are names

5 of some persons here. Can you tell us, please, about their ethnic

6 background. Are there members of all three nations here?

7 A. Yes, that's right. There are members of all three nations here.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we get a number for this

9 document? I would like it to be admitted into evidence.

10 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D91/3 and ter for the B/C/S.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will now turn to another topic.

12 Q. Yesterday you told us that you had been told by your neighbours

13 something about people wearing multicoloured clothing. Did you hear,

14 while living in Samac, about people who had come from outside? Do you

15 know how they got to Samac? Who were these people?

16 A. Yes. I heard about them. We called them multicoloured members of

17 special units. They were very arrogant. They were armed. They had no

18 insignia.

19 Q. Do you know anyone by name among those?

20 A. I know Mr. Lugar, with whom I personally had a problem. He

21 threatened me, telling me that what we were doing was done only in the

22 interests of Croats and Muslims, not in the interest of Serbs. And he

23 told me that such a Red Cross should not exist in wartime. However, after

24 the people who knew me intervened, they told him who I was and he stopped

25 threatening me.

Page 14215

1 Q. Mr. Maslic, tell me, please: Did you hear about a crime of his,

2 or any crime committed in May in the territory of Samac municipality?

3 A. Yes. I heard about that. It took place in the village of

4 Crkvina. A terrible crime was committed there. Several people who had

5 been imprisoned were killed. But this story was spread out through the

6 town out of fear. I couldn't hear this officially from anyone. This was

7 mentioned in talks in town. But there was fear among people. I

8 personally feared this man.

9 Q. Can you tell us approximately when did this take place? When did

10 you hear about this? A month later, two months later, three months later?

11 A. I can't tell you the exact date, but we heard about this shortly

12 thereafter.

13 Q. Thank you. I will now ask you a question that has to do with the

14 victims in Crkvina. Do you know, do you have any direct knowledge

15 concerning the fact that Miroslav Tadic, later on, got involved in finding

16 the bodies of these people? And if you know that it is so, do you know

17 the reason for that?

18 A. I know that Mr. Tadic got involved in this matter. He attempted

19 to find the bodies of these people who had been killed. He probably

20 contacted representatives of Odzak municipality, and together they looked

21 for these bodies.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, you should be clear about

23 this evidence, whether the witness is saying this -- that Mr. Tadic did in

24 fact, as a matter of reality, contact representatives of the Odzak

25 municipality and with them looked for the bodies, or whether he is

Page 14216

1 speculating. He said he probably did this. It's not clear to me from the

2 use of that expression, whether that's -- he's surmising or thinking or

3 suggesting that might have happened or whether he's saying: Yes, it did

4 happen.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Can you please tell us, if you know this: When was this? When

8 was it that Mr. Tadic made these attempts, and what do you know about

9 these attempts of Mr. Tadic in trying to find these bodies?

10 A. I know that Mr. Tadic had radio connection with the

11 representatives from Odzak and that after some time - I don't know exactly

12 how long, perhaps two or three months after that - he received a request

13 from the representatives of Odzak to try and find these bodies. I know

14 that he attempted to locate the bodies. I know about this. I'm not

15 supposing this.

16 Q. Do you know that in 1994 he made some other attempts concerning

17 this at the level of the republic?

18 A. Yes. The entire course of negotiations and contacts -- through

19 the entire course of negotiations and contacts with the other side, this

20 request was repeated continuously by the representatives from Odzak.

21 Q. Thank you. Now that we've mentioned Lugar and others, I will ask

22 you about another person. Have you heard about Captain Jez?

23 A. Yes, I have. He's an officer who worked in the brigade command as

24 a security officer.

25 Q. Do you know who was the commander of the brigade when this man was

Page 14217

1 the security officer?

2 A. I don't know who was the commander. I can't speak about that.

3 Q. Do you know whether he was close to Lugar and Stevan Todorovic?

4 A. I don't know exactly what his relationship with Lugar and

5 Todorovic was, so I can't speak about that, because I had no opportunity

6 to establish direct contact with the three of them. Therefore, I can't

7 speak about any possible cooperation or their relationship.

8 Q. Were you an eyewitness to an incident with Captain Jez concerning

9 the lists of people who were to be exchanged and who were sought?

10 A. Yes, I remember that. But before I answer your question, let me

11 just tell you that all of the lists of people who were sought by the other

12 side were sent to the police, and the security officer in the brigade, in

13 order that it could be verified whether there was any hindrance for these

14 people to be exchanged, whether there was perhaps a criminal complaint

15 against these people. I remember a list that went up to Captain Jez. He

16 looked at it and sent it back, crossing out the names of all of the people

17 who were supposed to come from Odzak through the exchange and who had the

18 same last name as Mr. Tadic. When we inquired why was it done, we

19 received a reply that: We have plenty of Tadics here.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could now the witness be shown

21 document P71.

22 Q. Mr. Maslic, have you ever seen this document before?

23 A. No, I haven't.

24 Q. Tell me: What, in your opinion, are vital facilities, facilities

25 of key importance?

Page 14218

1 A. In my opinion --

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, if Your Honours please, his opinion is

3 neither here nor there and not relevant, and he shouldn't give his

4 opinion. We're here to listen to his evidence of facts. And secondly, if

5 he doesn't know, never seen the document before, what's the purpose of his

6 commenting on it? He can certainly give evidence about anything that he

7 might know about isolation of Croats and so on, but an analysis of the

8 document itself is it not something that he should embark on if he's never

9 seen it before and doesn't know anything about it.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm astounded at this

11 position of the Prosecution. Many witnesses of the Prosecution have also

12 never seen this document. But Mr. Di Fazio has asked what vital

13 facilities were. I have to ask the witness what something is in order to

14 establish whether something had happened or not. I fail to comprehend

15 this intervention. If I want to ask -- if my intention is to ask the

16 witness whether what is written in the document indeed happened, the

17 witness can say that something did not happen, but he doesn't know what

18 the concept that we are talking about is in the document in question. Of

19 course, I can rephrase my question, if that is the case.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Perhaps the -- yes. The Trial Chamber is of

22 the view that perhaps the only mistake was asking for his opinion, because

23 it is normal that a document might not have been seen by a witness, but

24 when he reads it, he might know of the incidents that are discussed in the

25 document, so he can be asked about that.

Page 14219

1 MR. DI FAZIO: I've got no objection to that at all. I'm quite

2 happy for him to be asked about isolation or if he's --

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. It's the opinion that -- yes. He shouldn't

4 give his opinion.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: -- talk about things that he saw and heard. No

6 problem.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I just wanted to construct the

8 question in this way.

9 Q. What are vital facilities?

10 A. You want me to give you my opinion?

11 Q. No. I want you to tell me what vital facilities in Samac are.

12 A. The health centre, the hospital, the silo, the school. So these

13 are the vital facilities in Samac, those which are facilities of common

14 interest and significance.

15 Q. But do you know -- do you know that at any time during the war,

16 any of these facilities of the kind that you have just mentioned were --

17 that any person of Croat nationality was taken to any such facility and

18 put there?

19 A. I've never seen anyone brought there and put there.

20 Q. Tell me something else: Do you have any information --

21 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Excuse me for interrupting you, but when the

22 witness said that he had never seen any Croat, and so on, brought into

23 those vital facilities, does it mean that he wasn't in -- he hadn't the

24 possibility of seeing it, or that nobody brought into those facilities?

25 There is a great difference between those two things.

Page 14220

1 Q. Did you personally see, did you hear from anyone, did you receive

2 any information about that whatsoever?

3 A. I lived in Samac throughout that period and I moved around town

4 quite freely. And I know the locations of all these facilities, which I

5 have enumerated. So I never saw anyone on those facilities placed there

6 in this way. People used these institutions. They went in, they passed

7 by. They used these institutions, such as the hospital, for instance. I

8 never saw that anyone or heard that anyone had been placed upon such a

9 building.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Just to go back to my colleague Judge Lindholm's

12 question, though. There is a difference between seeing and knowing, and

13 even in the second answer by Mr. Maslic, there still seems to be a little

14 confusion on that as to -- even though he didn't see, did he know? So

15 just to have a very simple answer. Did Mr. Maslic know?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not know about it.

17 JUDGE WILLIAMS: And secondly -- I withdraw the question. I was

18 about to say: Even with respect to the school. It isn't said here

19 whether it's the secondary or the elementary school. But your answer was

20 no, so I'll leave it at that.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Mr. Maslic, do you have any knowledge to the effect that in the

23 month of May, any people were taken away to any place in an organised

24 fashion from Samac municipality territory, and why?

25 A. I learnt in May that a group had been taken away from town, a

Page 14221

1 group of Muslims and Croats who had been taken to Crkvina, to the culture

2 centre, and Crkvina is a nearby village.

3 Q. What was the mix of this population like, and do you perhaps know

4 their actual number?

5 A. There were between 100 and 150 persons in the group, and these

6 were mostly Croats and Muslims. There were also children among them, and

7 elderly and infirm -- and sick people. At the time, we in the local Red

8 Cross intervened immediately, and our activists, and I personally also saw

9 to it that these people would get the basic necessities, starting with

10 food and toiletries, the basic hygienic supplies. But I know that I was

11 there only for a short while, perhaps five or six days -- they were

12 there, sorry, between five or six days and then they were returned.

13 Q. Did you hear who had led them away? How had this been organised?

14 A. As far as I know, that had been done by the police.

15 Q. Tell me: When you came there and saw these people, were they

16 being secured in any way?

17 A. Yes. They were being guarded by the police.

18 Q. Do you know what happened to these people after these five or six

19 days?

20 A. As I've said, they were returned home. Because our activists went

21 there after that time and they saw that they had already gone.

22 Q. Did you inquire why these people had been taken there?

23 A. I don't know why they had been taken there.

24 Q. Thank you. Now I'll leave behind this month of May period. But

25 just a brief question associated with the Prosecution's case. Do you know

Page 14222

1 Mr. Osman Jasarevic?

2 A. I knew him by sight. I believe that he was a merchant, a shop

3 assistant. He worked in the old supermarket.

4 Q. Do you remember whether he was exchanged as part of the May

5 exchange in Zasavica?

6 A. I cannot recall that.

7 Q. That is not that material. Did you know his wife?

8 A. I did not know his wife.

9 Q. And did you know where it was that he had gone to after the

10 exchange?

11 A. No, I didn't. I don't know.

12 Q. Mr. Maslic, have you ever told anyone, did you ever tell anyone of

13 the civilians who came to you and reported that they wished to be

14 exchanged that they could not be exchanged?

15 A. I never told anything of the kind to anyone, nor could I have said

16 anything like that to anyone.

17 Q. Did you ever hear, while working on these activities associated

18 with the exchange, did you ever hear Miroslav Tadic ever tell anyone that

19 that person could not be exchanged?

20 A. No, I had never heard anything of the kind personally, nor had I

21 ever heard anything like that told to me by my associates.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now I should like to tender a number

24 of other documents for us to examine the other activities of the Red

25 Cross. On the basis of these documents, we shall try to expedite

Page 14223

1 matters. The first document that I'm interested in is PDB 43/3, internal

2 mark, I shall repeat, PDB 43/3, confirmation or receipt of the certificate

3 of the Red Cross of 18th of August, 1992. All these documents are

4 self-explanatory. All these documents which follow, and we will not dwell

5 on them at length.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] As I've already said, this document is

8 self-explanatory.

9 Q. Was it the practice of the Red Cross to issue certificates of this

10 kind? How frequently? And tell me specifically: In these cases, what

11 were the nationalities of the persons to whom they were issued, and what

12 was the next step?

13 A. These certificates were issued with the objective of enabling the

14 person in question to move around the area unhindered. Specifically, this

15 is a person who is from the Red Cross, Fikreta Omeragic, a Muslim by

16 ethnicity, and she was going to Belgrade to visit her husband in hospital

17 who had been wounded in Samac.

18 Q. We shall not go into those details. Just tell me: The last

19 sentence, the last line, I should read it, applies with the pass issued of

20 the station of public security of Bosanski Samac. What does that mean?

21 A. Every citizen had to have a pass issued by the public security

22 station in order to be able to leave the territory of the municipality.

23 Q. So with just this certificate a person could not go on a trip?

24 A. Yes, not with just this certificate.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can this document please be tendered

Page 14224

1 into evidence?

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the number?

3 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D92/3 and D92/3 ter for the

4 B/C/S.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The next document that I wish to

6 examine bears the internal mark PDB 66/3. It is also a Red Cross document

7 from the Red Cross of Samac, from the 28th of November, 1992. It is a

8 list, an inventory.

9 Q. Do you know this document?

10 A. Yes, I do. I'm familiar with it.

11 Q. Tell me, just very briefly: What was the role of the Red Cross in

12 connection with this document? Why was it compiled in the first place?

13 Very briefly, not the entire story, please. It is self-explanatory also.

14 A. You can see from the content of the document what it is -- what

15 its subject is. So these were jewels deposited for custody with the

16 commercial bank to be kept in the vault of the commercial bank until the

17 return of the lady in question from hospital.

18 Q. And what is established here? What is this in handwriting,

19 written in handwriting, in the top right corner?

20 A. That she had indeed taken her -- recovered her jewellery upon

21 returning from hospital.

22 Q. Thank you. Of what ethnicity was this lady?

23 A. She was of Muslim ethnicity.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May we also tender this document into

Page 14225

1 evidence, please?

2 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D93/3 and ter for the B/C/S.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The internal mark of the next document

4 is PDB 87/3, and it is a letter dated 30th January, 1993, written by Jovo

5 Lakic, a priest, and addressed to the Red Cross.

6 Q. This document is self-explanatory one as well. Just tell me: Was

7 it the practice for institutions to address you and offer their assistance

8 in tracing, or what was the practice like?

9 A. It was not infrequent at all for representatives of both

10 organisations and for individuals to themselves address the Red Cross with

11 either a request for them to be assisted or to be given information, and

12 there were also those who offered their assistance to us.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, just a matter for the

14 transcript. Mr. Lukic asked: Was it the practice for - something - he

15 said something - institutions to address you, and I didn't hear it, nor

16 does it come out in the transcript, in English, anyway. Did Mr. Lukic

17 refer to a particular type of institution in the question?

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Actually, I said various institutions,

19 different institutions, because it is quite clear from this document -- in

20 this specific case what institution is in question. This is the Samac

21 parish. And so this is in this document, and so my question was whether

22 other, different institutions addressed the Red Cross in this way, with

23 the same intention.

24 Q. Will you please tell me briefly: Here different villages are

25 mentioned, Samac, Grebnice, Novo Selo, et cetera. Are these villages in

Page 14226

1 which both Serbs and Croats lived in the surroundings of Samac?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Grebnice, for instance. This is generally known there was such a

4 village.

5 A. Yes. There are inhabited places here which were inhabited by

6 Serbs and Croats and Muslims.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can I be assigned a number for this

9 document?

10 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D94/3 and ter.

11 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Maslic. I'm just wondering: When

12 you got such letters from institutions, and in this case from a religious

13 person, a priest, Jovo Lakic, was it usual that they would say, as it does

14 in the English translation: Information was wanted from "camps run by the

15 Ustashas or other enemies"? Was the language usually put in those types

16 of ways?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was not the general practice,

18 no. But different terminology was used.

19 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Tell me, Mr. Maslic: Did the Red Cross have anything to do with

22 what is known as children's allowances, and what were, what are,

23 children's allowances and benefits?

24 A. Specifically, the Red Cross had nothing to do with the children's

25 benefits, but the service of the social work centre did. So these were

Page 14227

1 allowances which, until the outbreak of the war, used to be paid out to

2 families who had children up to 3 years old.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Please show the witness document PDB

4 5/3.

5 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Is it blue or yellow?

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You can go ahead, Mr. Lukic.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. This document is also self-explanatory. Did the Red Cross issue

9 certificates like these? You don't have to go into any detail. Just tell

10 me: This is obviously a document from the early period in the war. Until

11 what time did this possibility of receiving so-called baby packages exist?

12 A. I haven't finished. May I --

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. During the war operations, there were no payments made in money.

15 Everything was in kind. The Red Cross, as an organisation, a humanitarian

16 organisation, had, as part of the humanitarian relief supplies that it had

17 received from the Red Cross of Yugoslavia and the International Committee

18 of the Red Cross, also had some baby passes, baby packages, which

19 contained the basic necessities for a newborn infant. In addition to

20 these, we also had toiletries, hygienic supplies, baby formulas, and so on

21 and so forth.

22 Q. Please, just tell me: These are two different certificates. You

23 can see by the serial numbers. What persons -- what nationality were the

24 persons who were given these packages, parcels, rather?

25 A. In the first certificate, it is a Muslim surname, but I do not

Page 14228

1 know whether the lady in question was a Croat or Serbian. Jelica. But in

2 the other certificate, Almira Arapovic is certainly Muslim.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please be assigned a number for

5 this document, and I believe it would be a convenient time for us to take

6 a break after that. Thank you.

7 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D95/3 and ter for the B/C/S.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We'll have a break until 1615 hours.

9 --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.

10 --- Upon commencing at 4.16 p.m.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Mr. Maslic, we will now turn to a completely different topic, a

14 topic of great interest to us. Mr. Maslic, can you tell us, briefly:

15 What are exchanges? Can you tell us: What principles were used in the

16 course of exchanges? And in the first place, why did the exchanges start?

17 A. During the first part of my testimony, I said several times

18 something about exchanges. But now I will answer directly your question.

19 An exchange is a process by which people cross from one side to the

20 other. And when I say "sides," I'm referring to the warring sides, or

21 rather, this is an exchange of imprisoned soldiers. Exchange is a

22 mechanism enabling the soldiers who had been captured to cross to the

23 other side. The exchange itself comes after negotiations between the

24 warring sides, in the process of which they agree upon the names of

25 persons who wish to cross over or the names of persons who are sought.

Page 14229

1 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... not

2 understand what is written in the transcript. It's on page 34, line 23,

3 last two words, warring -- if the witness could repeat his answer.

4 Warring sides. That's what I heard, but I don't want to put --


6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. I believe that you said that there were two sides. Can you tell

8 us: What were those two sides?

9 A. Warring sides.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Maybe we ought to know from the witness,

12 Mr. Lukic, which word the warring sides from the perspective of the

13 exchanges that he is familiar with?

14 MR. DI FAZIO: And if I may just add something to -- which arises

15 from Your Honour's question. It's not a terribly important point, and

16 I -- but the witness isn't an expert on -- he seems to be talking

17 generally about exchanges. I've got no problem at all with him describing

18 what he saw and observed in 1992 and indeed the evidence should be -- you

19 should hear the evidence, of course, and I encourage it, but the way it's

20 being framed at the moment, it sounds as if it's a rather general

21 discussion on exchanges generally, and I don't think this witness is

22 entitled to do that.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. All right. I will clarify. What you're saying now, you are

25 telling us based on personal experience and the information you gained

Page 14230

1 personally while you worked on those tasks. Can you please explain to Her

2 Honour Judge Williams: What were the two warring sides throughout the

3 conflict?

4 A. By "warring sides," I mean Serbs on one side, and on the other

5 side Croats and Muslims.

6 Q. Do you know whether there had been any exchanges between Muslims

7 and Croats, in cases where the conflict was between those two sides?

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Excuse me for interrupting you again. When you

10 are talking about sides, geographically there are many sides. One, for

11 instance, Bosnia-Herzegovina; and on the other side of Sava River,

12 Croatia. And other sides, what does the witness mean with "sides,"

13 "warring sides"? And then a follow-up question. I can't find it here

14 now on the transcript, but he gave me an impression that persons exchanged

15 were soldiers kept in prisons, or wherever, and that doesn't fit in with

16 what we have heard earlier in this case, that most of the people exchanged

17 were civilians. Thank you.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: The witness did explain what he meant by "warring

19 sides" at 36, 7, that it meant Serbs on one side; and on the other side,

20 Croats and Muslims.

21 JUDGE LINDHOLM: But where was the line?

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic, continue.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We will now speak in greater detail

24 about the exchange of civilians and the exchange of imprisoned

25 individuals, because these are different categories, and the witness will

Page 14231

1 clarify this.

2 Q. Tell me, please: What comes before the exchange, according to

3 your knowledge?

4 A. In order to carry out an exchange of imprisoned soldiers --

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Excuse me. Are we again dealing with the matters

6 the witness witnessed relevant to this case or is he giving a general

7 definition?

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm putting very specific

9 questions concerning the exchanges in which the witness participated.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Mr. Maslic, the exchanges in which you participated, can you tell

13 us what precedes an exchange? Let's take, for example, the one that took

14 place in September of 1992 in Dragalic. Did you participate in that

15 particular exchange?

16 A. I can speak about this as a representative of the Red Cross. I

17 can speak about the concept of an exchange. Negotiations precede any

18 exchange. Negotiations between representatives of warring sides. On one

19 side, there would usually be a committee of the Serb side and on the other

20 side there would normally be a committee representing the Croatian side.

21 Q. Now, let's stop for a second, please?

22 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, we're running into

23 precisely the problem that I foreshadowed. You see the witness is

24 saying -- for example, the witness says negotiations proceed in the

25 exchange, negotiations between representatives of warring sides. One is

Page 14232

1 left wondering whether the witness is talking generally about exchanges or

2 is he talking about what he saw and heard and observed, or at least was

3 reported to him? And it's that that we have to be absolutely clear about.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: I think we have to go back to specifics.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I wanted to put this line of questions

6 because this applies to absolutely all of the exchanges in which this

7 witness participated. So I did not want to repeat that this was typical

8 for every exchange. And then later on I wanted to go into details

9 concerning each particular exchange. I think that this would facilitate

10 the appropriate explanation of what comes under the term "exchange."

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well. As long as we understand it the way

12 you've put it, that he is discussing what went on, what he witnessed, what

13 he did, or what others did.

14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Mr. Maslic, what do you know concerning the negotiations in which

16 you participated? What did you normally ask from the other side during

17 the negotiations in which you participated? I assume that you

18 participated in some negotiations between 1992 and 1993. What did you

19 normally ask for from the other side? Please tell us.

20 A. I wanted to tell you first something generally about the

21 exchanges.

22 Q. No. Please tell us something about the exchanges in which you

23 participated.

24 A. As a general rule, there was only an exchange of imprisoned

25 soldiers. The Red Cross, as a humanitarian organisation, got involved and

Page 14233

1 took part in these negotiations in order to enable the civilians who

2 wanted to cross over to the other side to cross at the same time when some

3 of their family members were exchanged as soldiers. We attempted to

4 honour the principle of unification of families. Your Honours, you are

5 probably familiar with the fact that citizens of Samac municipality had

6 family members living in the Republic of Croatia, which was quite nearby.

7 Those people lived in Odzak, in Gradacac, in Sarajevo, and other places.

8 During those negotiations which were conducted by military

9 committees, we, using the records kept by the Red Cross, the records

10 listing the citizens who wished to cross over to the other side, I mean

11 crossing to the side held by the other warring side, because this was an

12 only mode for them to go to the other side and unite with their families.

13 So we attempted to honour or to grant these requests of citizens every

14 time when there was an exchange of soldiers.

15 Q. Civilians who wanted to cross over to the other side, where did

16 they apply for this?

17 A. In view of the fact that citizens received written messages in the

18 Red Cross premises through the International Red Cross and that they

19 received information concerning their family members who had remained on

20 the other side, they would come to the Red Cross, apply to be exchanged,

21 stating where they wished to go.

22 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me. So, Mr. Maslic, you mentioned on page

23 39, lines 3 to 5, that the Red Cross was enabling civilians who wanted to

24 cross over to the other side to cross at the same time when some of their

25 family members were exchanged as soldiers. By "soldiers," are you

Page 14234

1 referring to prisoners of war? If you know that, I'd appreciate your

2 answering.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I mean prisoners of war. But

4 that fell under the jurisdiction of -- exclusive jurisdiction of military

5 committees.

6 JUDGE WILLIAMS: But did you have any records which indicated

7 which civilians had family members who were prisoner of war soldiers who

8 were going to cross over? You presumably had to try to bring two lists

9 together.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there were such records of

11 civilians who had applied.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. To follow up on Judge Williams's question: In your cooperation --

14 while you were cooperating with the military committees, did you know who

15 was to be exchanged through a military exchange? For example, who was to

16 be exchanged from Batkovici, for example?

17 A. A military committee that existed within the corps of the army of

18 Republika Srpska, there was one such committee in Banja Luka. It was

19 attached to the 1st Krajina Corps. And the other one was in Bijeljina,

20 and it was within the East Bosnian Corps. All citizens from Samac

21 municipality who had been captured as soldiers and kept in prison in

22 Batkovic were put on a list and the military committee gave us a list of

23 such individuals with respect to whom negotiations had been conducted to

24 exchange them, or rather, to free them. And based on that list and the

25 list of citizens that had applied to the Red Cross, we compiled a list in

Page 14235

1 order to enable them to cross to the other side without hindrance.

2 Q. And to follow up --

3 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Excuse me for interrupting you again. When you

4 are talking about exchange and the other side, is this, so to say, meaning

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina, in the south, and Croatia in the north, or in which

6 direction? Exchange, other side, and so on.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The concept of a warring side

8 presupposes, on the one hand, vis-a-vis Croatia; and on the other side, on

9 the other hand, vis-a-vis a part of Bosnia and Herzegovina, namely, the

10 Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. When you say "the federation," you mean under the jurisdiction of

13 the federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

14 A. Yes. There were territories which were exclusively under the

15 control of the Muslim army.

16 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Thank you.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We can later take a map, if need be,

18 to clearly indicate the places in question.

19 JUDGE LINDHOLM: So exchanges took place both up to the north,

20 over the Sava River, and to the south, into the Federation of

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina; am I right?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, you're right.

23 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Okay. Thank you.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. So to follow up on your previous explanation: There were some

Page 14236

1 persons who had been taken prisoner in Batkovic, and because of some

2 decisions were not exchanged when their family members were exchanged.

3 Did you actually accommodate the requests of these people who wanted to

4 leave, irrespective of where their spouses, for instance, were?

5 A. We did not set any conditions on anyone. There were some

6 families. No family members of which had been taken prisoner as a soldier

7 were not imprisoned in Batkovic. But before the war, a family member of

8 such families had perhaps gone to Croatia, to work there or because he had

9 relatives there, so that the families were separated in that way. So we

10 placed no conditions on anyone. But we always tried, when it came to

11 people -- persons who had been imprisoned as soldiers, if they stated that

12 it was their desire to cross over to the other side, we always sought to

13 make it possible for them and to make it possible for their families as

14 well, which is to say spouses, children, to be able to cross over together

15 with them. This is mainly what they wanted.

16 Q. Thank you. You explained that civilians came to the local Red

17 Cross, where they reported that they wished to be exchanged, and on such

18 occasions I believe you would compile lists of the people who reported.

19 A. Every person who reported to the Red Cross on any grounds

20 whatsoever, whether they sought some sort of assistance or wanted to have

21 a message delivered written, or any person wishing to be enabled to leave

22 the territory, we made lists of all such persons, and records of all such

23 persons.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Will the document with the internal

Page 14237

1 mark PDB 133/3 be shown to the witness. This is entitled "List of persons

2 who have applied to cross over to the opposite side by reason of family

3 reunification."

4 Q. Will you please take a look at this document and tell us whether

5 these were -- these are indeed the lists that were made by the Red Cross.

6 A. Yes. These are such lists.

7 Q. Do you know anything about the state of Croatia making the entry

8 of civilians into its territory conditional upon anything? Did it require

9 any specific requirements to be met for that, or any specific form to be

10 met for that? And I am referring to civilians.

11 A. As this was the only way for citizens to actually leave outside

12 the territory of the municipality, and go outside the territory of the

13 municipality, when they reported, when they applied for leaving, they

14 actually stated their desired destinations in connection with where their

15 families or their relatives were. A number of citizens from Samac had

16 relatives also in Tuzla and in Sarajevo and in Gradacac. So I'm talking

17 about the southern part of Bosnia and Herzegovina. And a number of

18 citizens had family in Croatia. But most of them mainly wished to go to

19 Croatia.

20 Q. Why, in your opinion?

21 A. Because it was through Croatia that they very often, in quite

22 significant numbers, in fact, would obtain visas to leave to third

23 countries, and this was something they could not do via the Bosnia and

24 Herzegovina Federation, so that for the most part they wanted to leave

25 through Croatia.

Page 14238

1 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Lukic.

2 Mr. Maslic, this particular example of a list that you say was a

3 list, line 8, page 43, in response to a question on that line, on line

4 10 you say: "These are such lists." I presume you mean this is an

5 example of such a list. But this example has no stamp of the Red Cross

6 and it has no date whatsoever. So we don't have here either a date when

7 these 122 persons applied to the Red Cross and were put on a list, and

8 neither do we have any dates as to when they were assigned to be

9 exchanged. Was that usual, to have no stamps, no dates?

10 JUDGE LINDHOLM: And no signature.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I was just about to ask the witness to

12 clarify for us that fact.

13 Q. Will you please explain to the Judge, to Judge Williams.

14 A. It was not customary for lists to be made without a date, without

15 a number, and without a stamp. I believe that this is just the working

16 part of the list, as it were, which served for practical purposes, for the

17 negotiations with the opposite side. So this is not the final list. Our

18 final list would have to have a stamp and be dually registered in the

19 books.

20 Q. And another question which stems perhaps from this question of

21 Judge Williams. Would all the persons on this list be exchanged within

22 the same exchange?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Was there a situation where people would change their mind and

25 then --

Page 14239

1 A. There were different situations. We had people who applied to

2 leave, applied to the Red Cross to be exchanged. And when the actual

3 exchange was about to take place, they would change their mind. For any

4 reason, either because some of their people, their soldiers, imprisoned

5 soldiers, were not going or because they did not obtain the necessary

6 approval or the letter of guarantee, due to different motives, depending

7 on the actual situation in which these people found themselves in

8 particular circumstances.

9 Q. Now you've just said something which I was interested in, in

10 relation to the Republic of Croatia. So irrespective of the fact that the

11 person in question applied to you wanting to be exchanged and that you did

12 not make that exchange of that person conditional upon anything, did the

13 opposite side concretely speaking, the Republic of Croatia, make the

14 entry, the coming of civilians into its territory conditional upon

15 anything? You've just -- I am suggesting, but I wish to expedite matters.

16 A. The opposite side had its own requirements also, expressed

17 desires. They said that they wanted to accept or to have family members

18 who had remained here and who the rest of their families were seeking from

19 Croatia. They wanted to -- these people to cross.

20 Q. This is not what I asked you. You mentioned some letters of

21 guarantee. What was that about?

22 A. These were letters of guarantee which were brought by either

23 representatives of the Red Cross or by colleagues from the Red Cross

24 organisation in Croatia.

25 Q. If a civilian from Samac wanted to go to Croatia and had no letter

Page 14240

1 of guarantee, could you take them there?

2 A. We could, but only if that person was accepted by the Croatian

3 side, if that person was not wanted.

4 Q. When you say "the other side," --

5 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry. The interpreter is lost because of the

6 overlap between question and answer. Sorry. I did not hear the Defence

7 counsel.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic, can you repeat? And please pause.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I will.

10 Q. I asked whether persons who wished to go to Croatia, in connection

11 whether these conditions, permits were also issued inter alia by

12 representatives of the Croatia Defence Council. That was my question.

13 The witness said yes.

14 A. I said yes.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] May this document be tendered into

16 evidence? Can I be assigned a number, please?

17 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D96/3 and ter for the B/C/S.

18 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honour, I don't believe that we had the

19 interpretation. Because, you see, when we heard the intervention from the

20 interpreters, it was about the question on page 46, line 8. When you say

21 "the other side," -- and we still don't have the answer to that question.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. My question was: When you said to the opposite side, what did you

24 mean by the opposite side? Just that. In the relationship between the

25 Serbian side and the Croatian side. What was the opposite side of the

Page 14241

1 negotiations?

2 A. The commission on exchanges on their side, the Croatian side, and

3 the Muslim side.

4 Q. Fine. Thank you.

5 MR. LAZAREVIC: Then again here on page 47, line 5, it is marked

6 as answer, although it was a question posed by the counsel. Just that

7 correction.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Will you now please tell me something else: You said that you

10 knew that in Samac there had been detainees held in, I shall call them

11 detention units. You mentioned the school, the hotel. Tell me: Do you

12 know whether anyone requested for these persons to be exchanged, whether

13 anyone on the opposite side asked for these detained persons to be

14 exchanged?

15 A. Yes, they did.

16 Q. Tell me: Do you know who made the actual decisions on their

17 exchange?

18 MR. LAZAREVIC: Here on page 47 again on line 18, we see the hotel

19 in the transcript. You mentioned the school, but he didn't mention the

20 hotel. There was no one in the hotel at that time.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just mentioned the school.

22 Q. So I'll repeat my last question: Do you know who it was that made

23 the decisions on the detainees, whether these detainees could be exchanged

24 or not?

25 A. It was the police and the army who made such decisions, and no one

Page 14242

1 could leave without their permission.

2 Q. Do you know who it was in the police or in the army who actually

3 made such decisions, and how do you know that fact?

4 A. I don't know who specifically it was who decided in the army and

5 the police, but I do know that every list of people who were requested and

6 who were in -- who were sought, who were in detention, they had to go

7 there, and they did the checking out in terms whether some people could

8 indeed be exchanged or not, and to establish whether the persons --

9 whether there were any obstacles in regard to any particular person for

10 that person to leave, to be exchanged. So I don't know in detail who it

11 was by name that made such decisions. I did not inquire. Nor did I know

12 that.

13 Q. Please tell me: Did you ever go to the Crisis Staff to inform

14 them of anything or to ask for any permission regarding exchanges?

15 A. I never went to the Crisis Staff on that particular score, but as

16 a representative of the Red Cross, it was my obligation to inform the

17 Executive Board of the Municipal Assembly on these matters.

18 Q. Tell me, please: Did you ever inform or ask for permission from

19 the War Presidency or Municipal Assembly that started functioning in 1993

20 for people to be exchanged from the territory of Samac municipality?

21 A. I said that we only informed the Executive Council, but we never

22 asked for permission from these two bodies.

23 Q. Which two bodies do you have in mind?

24 A. Well, you said yourself: The War Presidency and the Municipal

25 Assembly, the assembly.

Page 14243

1 Q. We will take a look at some documents that have to do with the

2 decisions of the committee on exchanges. There were several such

3 decisions. Now tell me this, please: When you became president or

4 chairman of the exchange committee, did you inform any of these

5 institutions on exchanges, and what did you inform them about?

6 A. In view of the fact that this committee was established by the

7 Executive Council, there was an obligation to inform about these

8 activities, just in the form of information.

9 Q. All right. We will get back to that once we take a look at these

10 documents. The Prosecutor's microphone is on and I don't know if I'm to

11 expect an objection or not?

12 MR. DI FAZIO: No objection. Perhaps a clarification.

13 Mr. Lukic's questions seem to expressly exclude the Crisis Staff. There's

14 a reference to the Municipal Assembly and the War Presidency, but not the

15 Crisis Staff. Now, that may be intentional. I don't know. If -- in

16 terms of referring back to these authorities.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. That question was asked. If you look at page

18 48, I think, line 21, the witness even answered that: "I never went to the

19 Crisis Staff on that particular score."

20 MR. DI FAZIO: I am sorry. I apologise and I withdraw that

21 comment. Thank you.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: And he explained to whom his obligations lay.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm sorry. I missed that, and I withdraw that.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I wish to emphasise this: That this

25 had to do with the time when this witness became chairman of the exchange

Page 14244

1 committee. Thank you.

2 Q. Mr. Maslic, please tell me: During an exchange itself, once you

3 bring in the individuals who were to be exchanged, what happens next?

4 What happens at the crossing line?

5 A. Every person who, based on his or her expressed wish to cross over

6 to the other side, is put on a list, and then an approval is obtained, and

7 then these persons come to the separation line, and then they had to once

8 again state whether they still wished to cross over to the other side.

9 Q. Who did they have to state this to?

10 A. They had to state this to the committee of the opposing side. As

11 far as I know, at every exchange the military committee from Banja Luka

12 required that the International Red Cross be present there.

13 Q. Did they indeed attend every exchange that you were involved in?

14 A. As far as I remember, they did not. I don't know what were the

15 reasons behind that, but I know that they attended some exchanges, but not

16 all of them.

17 Q. Were representatives of some other international institution

18 present at various exchanges?

19 A. I don't know whether the Trial Chamber is familiar with the fact

20 that we - and here I mean the local Red Cross exchange committee and

21 military committee, as well as exchange committees from other

22 municipalities: Modrica, Derventa, Doboj, Gradiska - went to negotiations

23 to the current Republic of Croatia, which is where the UN forces were, in

24 the area near the highway between Zagreb and Belgrade, the place that is

25 called Dragalic, or Novska, or we went to the other side, to the place

Page 14245

1 called Lipovac, in Serbia. This is some 300 to 400 kilometres from Samac.

2 We went there because that was the only safe place, as we were

3 protected by the UN forces. We were unable to reach an agreement with the

4 opposite side to have that done somewhere closer to us, in Orasje, which

5 is some ten kilometres from Samac. They were unable to provide sufficient

6 security measures for us to be able to negotiate there.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe that Judge Lindholm has a

8 question.

9 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Yes, I have. Earlier, during the statement of

10 the witness, he talked about the persons exchanged from Samac over to the

11 other side, what it does mean, I don't exactly know. But then he went on

12 and talked about detained people. Why, and for what purpose, were the

13 persons being object to exchange detained?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't tell you that, because I

15 don't know why they had been detained. The Red Cross had no information

16 concerning that, no data whatsoever, so I don't know that.

17 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Thank you.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not reply to Mr. Lukic's

19 question, and with your permission, I will reply now.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Go ahead.

22 A. I said that this was at a certain distance from Samac and that

23 this was under the protection of the UN forces. As far as I remember,

24 there was Jordanian battalion there and the Nepalese one. The soldiers of

25 the UN forces had to get involved every time we contacted the opposing

Page 14246

1 side and enabled us to conduct negotiations unhindered. The vehicles in

2 which the prisoners and civilians were transported were also provided.

3 They attended every exchange, and their sole aim was to provide the

4 necessary security measures during our stay there.

5 Q. In order to explain this to the Trial Chamber, when you say

6 "Dragalic, Lipovac, Novska," what was the other side that you conducted

7 negotiated with, those places?

8 A. Those were negotiations conducted with the representatives of the

9 Croatian Defence Council and with Croats.

10 Q. Was it possible to enter these zones under the UN protection while

11 carrying weapons?

12 A. As far as I remember, these zones were called UNPA zones, and

13 nobody who was in uniform or wearing weapons was able to enter those

14 zones, even the representatives of military committees had to come there

15 without uniforms and without weapons. Everybody who came there wearing

16 uniform and bearing arms was turned back.

17 Q. Was it necessary to inform the UN about every entrance into that

18 zone?

19 A. Yes. All of this had to be announced several days prior to that,

20 or at least one or two days prior to that, in order for them to be able to

21 prepare everything and to obtain permissions from their superiors.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now we will turn to some matters in

24 chronological order. We will now focus on several exchanges.

25 Could the witness be shown document D12/3.

Page 14247

1 Q. Do you remember the exchange that took place in the beginning of

2 June -- no, beginning of July 1992 in Lipovac, which was within the UNPA

3 zone? You will take a look at the list now, and perhaps a name on the

4 list will trigger your memory.

5 Did you attend this particular exchange? Do you remember it?

6 A. I believe that I was present in the capacity of the Red Cross

7 representative.

8 Q. Was there anything peculiar about this exchange on the 4th of July

9 that made you remember this? Were there any technical problems?

10 A. Yes, I remember. This exchange was scheduled either on the 4th of

11 July or on the 5th of July. But I believe it was on the 4th of July. We

12 received information from the representatives of the Croatian side that

13 they had some technical problems and that they were unable to bring the

14 detainees from their side. And they asked that we spend the night in

15 Lipovac and that this, according to them, would be done tomorrow, and this

16 is how it happened.

17 Q. Now please take a look at the name under number 44. There is

18 something else written there next to that name. Could you comment on

19 this, please.

20 A. Yes. This is Stipo Vukovic, a man who then, at the site, stated

21 that he did not wish to cross over to the other side, despite the fact

22 that he had been sought by the other side. He stated then that he did not

23 want to cross over, and he was sent back home.

24 Q. Did you know that man personally? Did he live in Samac later on?

25 A. Yes, I knew him by sight. I know that he lived in Samac later on

Page 14248

1 and that he came to the Red Cross.

2 Q. My colleague is reminding me to ask you: Why did he come to the

3 Red Cross later on?

4 A. Due to the humanitarian aid that he received.

5 Q. Tell me, please: When a detained person, be he detained either in

6 Samac or in Batkovici, is brought to the exchange line and then states

7 that he does not wish to be exchanged, is he returned back to the prison

8 or sent back home?

9 A. Everybody who stated he did not wish to cross over to the other

10 side was sent back home and continued living as any other free citizen.

11 Mr. Matheas paid special attention to such persons and required the local

12 Red Cross to provide protection to such individuals, just like to any

13 other persons, and this was upheld.

14 Q. You have already told us something about military committees.

15 Tell us this, please: When did you learn that there was a republic

16 committee for exchanges, and did you have any contacts with this committee

17 at the republic level?

18 A. You mean the republic level?

19 Q. Yes. We will turn to the military commission later on.

20 A. I believe that the republic commission existed in 1993, although

21 we had very few contacts with it, and they did not put in any requests to

22 us.

23 Q. Can you tell us: When were the first contacts established with

24 military commissions? Who did you get to know there? And tell us

25 briefly: How was the cooperation established, and why was the cooperation

Page 14249

1 needed between the military and the civilian commissions? You've

2 mentioned the 1st Krajina Corps, but tell us: When did the cooperation

3 start?

4 A. After the corridor was severed, it was possible to come to Samac

5 from Modrica, Doboj, and Derventa, Gradiska, and Dragalic. This was a

6 road that we took to go to negotiations with Croats. So after the

7 corridor was penetrated in Modrica, shortly thereafter, Captain Milutin

8 Grujicic came to Samac and introduced himself as president or chairman of

9 the military commission for exchanges within the 1st Krajina Corps. At

10 the time, he talked with us about the Red Cross and told us about the

11 possibility to meet with the representatives of the Croatian military

12 commission and the Croatian Red Cross. We were mostly interested in our

13 colleagues from the Red Cross in Orasje, Brod, Odzak, and even in

14 Gradiska. We were interested in establishing contact with them. I

15 believe that it was sometime in late July 1992.

16 Q. Before these direct contacts that you had with the opposing side,

17 how was the contact established between these two sides?

18 A. As far as I know, the only available contact was through the radio

19 station.

20 Q. Could you be more specific? Do you mean the communications

21 centre, centre for reporting?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Because there is a radio station in Samac as well, but that is a

24 different entity; is that right? When was the first time you went to

25 communications centre? Can you specify that for us?

Page 14250

1 A. I can't remember when it was that I went there, but I believe that

2 I only went to the commissions centre a couple of times.

3 Q. And later on, when direct contacts were established with the

4 opposing side, when negotiations started, was this contact through

5 communications centre still in use?

6 A. No, it wasn't, because it was a complicated way to communicate.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Will the document D64/3 be shown to

8 the witness, please.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].

11 Q. You referred yesterday to your contacts and cooperation with the

12 military commission. What is this before you? Will you say -- tell us in

13 a few words.

14 A. This is a specific request addressed by Mr. Grujicic, sent by

15 Mr. Grujicic, and I believe it is to the command of the United Nations

16 forces, telling them that this group would go there for negotiations and

17 with what vehicles they would come, and other pertinent information.

18 Because unless you provided such particulars, one could not enter the UNPA

19 zones.

20 Q. I'm interested in the persons on this list. Here we can see your

21 name, as well as one of Tadic's name. Are the other persons here just

22 military personnel, or are there any civilians on this list? Why are

23 these people on this list? What jobs did they do?

24 A. On this list there are representatives of the military commission,

25 or rather, the military commissions, as well as of civilian commissions.

Page 14251

1 There are people from Samac, from Modrica, from Derventa, and from Brcko,

2 at Bijeljina. Specifically, if I need to --

3 Q. No, there is no need. Just a minute. Just one minute.

4 Correction. Page 57, line 9. And from Bijeljina. And from Bijeljina

5 also.

6 I'm just interested in a particular individual on this list,

7 because I believe he will feature in the case. Who is the person under

8 serial number 5 and why is that person on the list? What was his job?

9 A. That is Maksim Simeunovic, Captain First Class by rank, member of

10 the commission of exchanges of the East Bosnia Corps, a man from Brcko.

11 Q. Was his nickname Maksa?

12 A. Yes, it was.

13 Q. Please tell me, Mr. Maslic: At the negotiations themselves, did

14 you, as representatives of the civilian -- could you, as representatives

15 of the civilian commissions, interfere in the work of the military

16 commissions and their representatives who were conducting the

17 negotiations? Could you decide or could you advise them as to the forming

18 of their opinions?

19 A. The civilian commission could not at all make any decisions,

20 especially not in terms of any military issues, nor did it have any such

21 powers in respect of these negotiations. We cooperated with the military

22 commission primarily in terms of our being of service to them in order to

23 provide them with particulars and data from our respective areas from

24 which we hailed, as I say, Samac, Modrica, et cetera. I'm talking about

25 the information about the captured persons, the missing persons, and all

Page 14252

1 other persons who were pertinent whose families came to the Red Cross.

2 The people, the families, could not go to Banja Luka, but the data,

3 descriptions of the soldiers, photographs of the soldiers, is something

4 that they provided and we also provided this service to them in order to

5 help the members of the families to indeed find the person that they were

6 looking for as part of this exchange process.

7 Q. Let me clarify this. Did you give the military commissions any

8 information about the detainees?

9 A. No, no. They got these -- such information from the units from

10 which the soldiers went missing. As I said, we gave such information to

11 the families or from the families we gather information which was material

12 for that particular soldier to be found.

13 Q. Did the military commission submit any information to you about

14 the civilians that were being sought? Did you have any such situations in

15 your work?

16 A. Military commissions sometimes asked that we -- asked us to try

17 and bring a civilian, the member of whose family was to be exchanged as a

18 soldier and lived in our municipality. This is in respect of this, they

19 submitted their requests to us, and in the process we always abided by

20 this requirement of family reunification, unless we have a situation where

21 the soldier in question was to be exchanged and the family would remain,

22 so in this sense they sent us their requests.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Will the document please be shown;

24 document D5/3.

25 JUDGE LINDHOLM: While finding that document, I would like to ask

Page 14253

1 perhaps my memory doesn't serve me quite correctly, but first the witness

2 told us that the persons being exchanged from Bosnia-Herzegovina were

3 prisoners of war, and then that they were detainees. And I understand

4 that they were civilians. My third, following up that, why were they

5 detained in order to be exchanged? I haven't got any answer to that

6 question.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I believe that the witness explained

8 that he didn't know why people had been detained in Samac. I don't think

9 he ever mentioned that people were detained in order to be exchanged. He

10 never said anything of the kind. I believe that these two matters are

11 wholly unassociated. But I shall ask the witness.

12 Q. In your opinion, the detention of persons, did it have anything to

13 do with the exchanges?

14 A. I've said I don't know why people were detained, and their

15 detention has nothing, their capturing has nothing whatsoever to do with

16 exchanges.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Bear with me, please. I don't know

18 whether this is a satisfactory reply for Judge Lindholm.

19 JUDGE LINDHOLM: No, it isn't, because you were so much involved

20 in this process, it's unexplainable that you didn't know why they were

21 detained.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that, as an activist of the

23 Red Cross and a representative of the Red Cross, I dealt exclusively with

24 humanitarian work and the problems associated with humanitarian work, so

25 that I could not have known, nor did I know the reasons why any person had

Page 14254

1 been detained or imprisoned or captured.

2 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Okay. Let me go on. Did you have any -- take

3 any part of exchanges of persons not being detained?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Persons who were not detained were

5 not exchanged. They simply crossed over to the other side together with

6 the -- when some members of their families were being exchanged. So nor

7 did the opposite side ask for these people to be actually exchanged just

8 to make it possible for them to cross over from either side. So persons

9 and civilians crossed from either side on this basis. The exchange

10 process referred and covered exclusively soldiers who were detained, and

11 not civilians who crossed in this way.

12 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Thank you.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Did you draw up lists of civilians who went along with -- who were

15 also exchanged?

16 A. Yes. These lists had to be made on the basis of requests coming

17 from these civilians themselves and the request of the opposite side, in

18 order to enable for them to leave the territory of the municipality

19 without any hindrance, because there were checkings and the police

20 controlled every exit from the municipality, and the police then

21 authorised or gave its permission to such lists, and that is why these

22 lists were compiled in the first place.

23 Q. Tell me: Could civilians enter an UNPA zone without there having

24 been drawn a list which was to be submitted to UNPROFOR?

25 A. Before any entrance into the zone, a list had to be previously

Page 14255

1 submitted, and the United Nations troops would examine the list, and very

2 often they would actually collate, control, the detained soldiers and the

3 civilians.

4 Q. To follow up on the question posed by Judge Lindholm, in respect

5 of the detainees, you said that as a member of the Red Cross you couldn't

6 know. Did you know that there were any rebellions in Samac regarding --

7 in connection with illegal arming? Have you heard of any procedures?

8 A. Yes, I heard that there had been some proceedings instituted, but

9 as a humanitarian worker I was not interested in that.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Please take a brief look at this

11 document. I will repeat this question, because I don't believe the answer

12 is in the trial record.

13 Q. My last question was: Did the military commissions assist you and

14 submit to you any information about the persons being sought? Did you get

15 any such information from them? You recall that I asked you this

16 question. Please briefly answer.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Please take a look at this list. Do you recall this particular

19 exchange? Do you know where it took place? Take a look at it.

20 A. As far as I can remember, this was -- this exchange was in

21 Dragalici, and I know some of the people on the list, and I know that on

22 that occasion a number of them opted for returning home.

23 Q. The handwritten additions by some names, what does that mean?

24 A. I believe that that exactly refers to those persons who left, who

25 changed their mind and went home.

Page 14256

1 Q. Now tell me, please, since we are constantly using the term

2 "exchange": If they left, had anyone come to your side when this exchange

3 took place?

4 A. I did not understand your question.

5 Q. The people on this list left, they left to the other side. Did

6 the other side, did the opposite side bring anyone on that occasion? Whom

7 and from where?

8 A. The opposite side always brought a certain number of sought

9 persons, according to these lists, for every exchange, because those lists

10 had been agreed beforehand.

11 Q. Do you remember at this specific exchange? Not, of course, by

12 name, but what was the profile? What was the ethnicity of the people who

13 came?

14 A. If I recall correctly, they were people from Novi Grad, Dubica,

15 Trnjak, this area generally.

16 Q. Tell me: Of what nationality were these people?

17 A. They were of Serb ethnicity.

18 Q. Tell me: Could they -- could they have come of their own, if they

19 wanted to come to the territory of Samac, would these Croatian authorities

20 let them come to your territory, the territory of Samac municipality in an

21 organised fashion, spontaneously, as it were?

22 A. As far as I know, they were captured there. They were imprisoned.

23 They had been captured and were in prison there and could not come of

24 their own initiative without a formal exchange and the permission to that

25 effect by the authorities.

Page 14257

1 Q. Will you look at the person under serial number 22. Sorry. 25.

2 25. Do you recall this person? Do you know him?

3 A. Yes, I remember the name. Dragan Lukac.

4 Q. Do you remember him?

5 A. Yes, I do. He was the chief of the police station in Samac. I

6 know him personally. And I know that on that particular occasion, with

7 his colleague policemen who accompanied him, he was sitting, or he stayed

8 in Gradiska, and they were having drinks there while they were waiting for

9 the exchange to take place. Now, why have I remembered this particular

10 thing? Because the people on the buses reacted to his presence, actually,

11 objected to his presence, because they saw no reason for him to be there.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The next document which I'd like to be

14 shown to the witness bears the internal mark PDB 82/3. This is a letter

15 from the 27th of January, 1993.

16 Q. Would you please comment on this document.

17 A. Mr. Grujicic is writing to me personally, as the president of the

18 Red Cross, asking me to comply with a request by a colleague of mine from

19 Gradiska, which refers to a civilian who was to have crossed over to the

20 other side, the opposite side.

21 Q. Did it often happen that military commissions sent each other

22 messages through you, corresponded with each other through you?

23 A. Well, they had a lot of contacts, and during each of these there

24 were requests made to us, and whatever we were able to comply with, we

25 did, in order to enable civilians to cross over if they wished to do that.

Page 14258

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can this document be given a number,

2 please.

3 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D97/3 and ter for the B/C/S.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like the witness to be

5 shown documents B83 and B84 [as interpreted]. To speed things up, we can

6 show both documents together. P83.

7 Q. While we are waiting for the documents, Mr. Maslic, these are

8 documents concerning decisions issued by the commission for exchange:

9 When exchanges were carried out, why was it necessary, in October 1992, to

10 issue formal decisions by or on the side of the commissions for exchange?

11 A. In view of the issues that arose in the area of the municipality,

12 that is, there was an enormous number of requests for people to go over to

13 the other side, the Executive Board decided to set up a commission to deal

14 with this so that it could be informed of these activities. That was one

15 of the aspects of their work.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: We just want to be sure what we are looking at. Is

17 it P83 and P84?

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well, then. Thank you.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes. We will look at document P83.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is a document issued by

22 the War Presidency, about the establishment of the commission and the

23 appointment of its members.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. You were appointed president of the commission?

Page 14259

1 A. Yes, as a representative of the Red Cross.

2 Q. Tell me, please: This other person, who is it?

3 A. It's Simo Nikolic, a person who was a soldier. He had some sort

4 of rank in the military, in the brigade.

5 Q. What brigade are you referring to? Can you be more precise?

6 A. I'm referring to the 2nd Posavina Brigade.

7 Q. Do you know how it came about that Tadic was appointed a member of

8 that commission?

9 A. I think that this was because he knew the Odzak area, and the

10 Serbs taken prisoner in Odzak and the surrounding area, and that was the

11 reason for his appointment, I think. And I don't know whether it's also

12 because he was in the civilian protection staff. I wouldn't know that.

13 Q. The two of you had cooperated before that with reference to the

14 exchanges?

15 A. Yes. Tadic would come to the Red Cross and would do whatever the

16 Red Cross asked him to do.

17 Q. Would you look at Article 3 of this decision, please. I'm

18 interested in knowing whether you yourself, as it says in Article 3,

19 submitted reports to the War Presidency.

20 A. We didn't submit any reports to the War Presidency, but we

21 submitted reports to the Executive Board or council, as I have already

22 said.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Would the witness please be shown

24 document P84 now.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, you may be helped by an

Page 14260

1 explanation of why reports weren't going to the War Presidency and were

2 going to the Executive Council. The document is clear and plain, but

3 the -- it wasn't being followed. I mean, I know that I can clarify it in

4 cross-examination, but --

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think that is a question for

6 cross-examination.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Very well.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Please take a look at this other document now. Is it familiar to

10 you?

11 A. Yes, I'm familiar with it.

12 Q. Why was this decision issued? Do you know? And who are the

13 persons mentioned in it?

14 A. These persons were never active members of the commission, and I

15 think the reason for this decision was that the representatives of the

16 municipality of Pelagicevo asked to be included because they also had

17 persons who had been taken prisoner, who came from their municipality.

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for the documents. I would

19 now ask that the witness be shown document D76/3.

20 Q. While we are waiting for this document, would you please tell me:

21 Mr. Simo Nikolic, did he take an active part in the work of the commission

22 for exchanges?

23 A. No, he didn't.

24 Q. May I conclude that in practice it was you and Tadic who actually

25 worked in the commission from the time of its inception? Would you repeat

Page 14261

1 your answer, please?

2 A. Yes. This is a document issued by the Executive Council, and it

3 was in fact complied with. Reports were submitted and appointments were

4 made.

5 Q. This document dates from May 1993. Do you remember that before

6 May 1993 you informed the Executive Council of work on exchanges?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Maybe we could take a break now, Your

9 Honour.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Mr. Lukic, you're supposed to finish by 1830,

11 according to the hours for this witness. We'll take a break now and

12 proceed at 1805.

13 --- Recess taken at 5.45 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 6.07 p.m.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have to appeal to the

17 Trial Chamber regarding the information giving me -- by the Presiding

18 Judge as to the time left for this witness. I have to say, Your Honours,

19 that this is one of the key witnesses for the defence of Miroslav Tadic.

20 The second issue is that we were given 70 hours for our witnesses. When I

21 added up viva voce witnesses, I came to a maximum of 42 hours. When I

22 drafted my pre-trial brief, I estimated six to seven hours for this

23 witness. We have several other important topics remaining, such as

24 Zasavica, Batkovici and so on, and the Judges so far have put quite a lot

25 of questions to this witness. I would also like to remind you that Stevan

Page 14262

1 Todorovic was initially expected to testify for two and a half days and

2 remained here for two weeks. This is a very important witness for

3 Miroslav Tadic, for this Trial Chamber, for this trial, because this is a

4 witness that can tell us a lot about exchanges. And I will try to focus

5 on what is most important for us, but I do not believe that I will be able

6 to complete today. I think that I will need another 45 minutes on Monday.

7 I hope the Trial Chamber will grant this request. If you believe that I'm

8 repeating myself and putting the same questions, then I will abide by your

9 ruling.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic. The Trial Chamber will give you the

12 time you need, since you say this is your key witness. So you go ahead.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. Mr. Maslic, we will now briefly analyse another document, with

15 internal marking PDB --

16 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please repeat the number of

17 the document.


19 MR. LUKIC: 60, 60/3.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Very briefly, Mr. Maslic: Are you familiar with this document?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You signed it?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You've told us that Simo Nikolic did not actually work with you,

Page 14263

1 although his name is listed on the document, dated May 1993. The

2 municipal authorities, be it War Presidency or Executive Council, did they

3 comply with your request? Did they grant your request? Were you given an

4 additional member?

5 A. I do not remember that we were.

6 Q. Now, tell me, please: From the beginning of 1993, was there a War

7 Presidency or another body?

8 A. We had the Executive Council, as far as I know.

9 Q. Did the Municipal Assembly start functioning, Municipal Assembly

10 of Samac municipality?

11 A. I can't answer that question.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could this document be admitted into

13 evidence?

14 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Yes, certainly. But I'm still --

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number?

16 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D97/3 and ter.


18 MR. DI FAZIO: 98.

19 MR. LUKIC: 98 maybe.

20 THE REGISTRAR: I apologise. D98/3 and ter.

21 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Yes, Mr. Lukic. I'm still interested in some

22 confusing concepts. Here, in this document, the English translation,

23 starting from line 1 in the proper text: "Since the hitherto member of

24 the commission for the exchange of prisoners of war ..." It is still

25 unclear for me what the meaning of "exchange" was, because you have told

Page 14264

1 about -- talked about prisoners of war, detained persons, and other

2 persons. Could you clarify that with this witness so it becomes clear to

3 the Chamber what you are talking about? Thank you.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Mr. Maslic, in this letter -- I will read this out to you, because

6 it is not next to you. In the beginning of your letter you are saying as

7 follows: In view of the fact that the member of the commission for

8 exchange of war prisoners, Nikolic Sima, and so on and so forth. You,

9 in your letter, called this commission "commission for exchange of war

10 prisoners." Can you please explain to us what you meant? And why was the

11 commission called "commission for exchange of civilians," and so on?

12 A. The document itself says "commission for exchange of war

13 prisoners." However, that was not the role of this commission. We simply

14 took over the name from the military commissions. This was not in fact a

15 commission for exchange of war prisoners. It was simply a customary name

16 used in other municipalities, although this commission was not involved in

17 exchange of war prisoners. The official name of this nature belongs to

18 the military commission.

19 Q. Just to add another explanation to Judge Lindholm: Do you know

20 that Croatian commission also had in its name prisoners of war and

21 arrested civilians?

22 A. Yes, that's right. And we simply took over the name.

23 Q. And was this commission used or involved in getting the Serb

24 civilians to cross over to the other side?

25 A. Yes.

Page 14265

1 Q. And just conclude for the benefit of Judge Lindholm. The

2 commission in which you and Miroslav Tadic worked in, was it ever involved

3 in exchange of war prisoners?

4 A. No, it was never involved in exchange of war prisoners.

5 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Well, I have a follow-up question, perhaps

6 depending on the country I come from. Wasn't it possible for civilians to

7 cross the border between Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia without any

8 official procedure?

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. I think that this is a very relevant question of Judge Lindholm.

11 Could you please clarify this.

12 A. We would be most happy if it was possible to do it in this way and

13 to have citizens cross over from both sides unhindered, because that would

14 be the simplest and the best way. However, due to the war and the combat

15 that was going on, that was impossible. The only possible way was our

16 way. The only bridge across the Sava River between Bosnia-Herzegovina and

17 Croatia was located in Gradiska.

18 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Thank you.

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Now we will turn to another topic. Have you heard of the village

21 of Zasavica?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What can you tell us about that village? Is there anything

24 peculiar concerning it?

25 A. That village is some seven kilometres from Samac, next to the

Page 14266

1 Bosna River. It's a village mostly populated by Croats. This village was

2 never shelled during the war, unlike other villages and the town itself,

3 which were shelled daily.

4 Q. The nearby villages around Zasavica, were they shelled?

5 A. Yes. The village of Crkvina is a neighbouring village, and it was

6 shelled daily.

7 Q. Where were the shells coming from?

8 A. I suppose that they were fired from Orasje, from the Republic of

9 Croatia, from that territory.

10 Q. Do you know whether a group of individuals was accommodated in an

11 organised way in the village of Zasavica in autumn of 1992? Do you know

12 who found housing for those people there, and why?

13 A. Yes. I know that some residents from the town, residents of Croat

14 and Muslim nationality, were housed in that village, whereas the original

15 residents of the village were Croats.

16 Q. Who took them to Zasavica?

17 A. As far as I know, that was done by the police.

18 Q. Tell me, please: Do you know how many people were brought into

19 Zasavica at the time? What was their gender and age profile?

20 A. I can't tell you the exact figure, but I believe that there were

21 women and children there, as well as men. There were different people

22 there.

23 Q. Do you know why they were brought there?

24 A. I don't.

25 Q. Do you know, was there anything characteristic about Zasavica?

Page 14267

1 Was there something at the entry point into the village?

2 A. At the entrance into the village there was a police guard, there

3 were guards there who controlled the traffic in and out of the village.

4 Q. Tell me, please: Did you personally ever visit Zasavica?

5 A. I went to Zasavica once with Mr. Matteas.

6 Q. When you say "once," can you try and recall when that was?

7 A. At the very beginning, after these people had been taken there.

8 Q. Well, that's not specific enough. Can you remember when those

9 people had been taken there?

10 A. I can't remember the exact time period.

11 Q. Can you remember what month it was?

12 A. It was the summer of 1992.

13 Q. Please continue.

14 A. I went there with Mr. Matteas, who asked that we go there

15 together.

16 Q. I apologise. I will have to interrupt you. Is that Matteas from

17 the International Red Cross?

18 A. Yes, Matteas who was a delegate of the International Red Cross,

19 who asked that we go there together to see what were the living conditions

20 of those people. And we planned some joint activities in order to assist

21 those people and create better living conditions for them. I accepted his

22 proposal. We went there together and we established contact with the

23 commissioner of that local commune, Mr. Ivica Pandurevic.

24 JUDGE LINDHOLM: I have a --

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we have a break here?

Page 14268

1 JUDGE LINDHOLM: No, not a break, but a question. When you talk

2 about that place and you say: "Together to see where the living

3 conditions of those people," what do you mean by the expression "those

4 people"?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had in mind both the residents of

6 the Zasavica local commune who had lived there before and those who had

7 been brought there by police. And when I said "living conditions," I

8 meant the food, the clothing, medications, and everything else that they

9 needed, because they were unable to leave the village without permits,

10 without bypassing the police. Somebody had to bring in the food and the

11 aid to them, and that was the responsibility of the Red Cross.

12 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Okay. There were permanent inhabitants in that

13 village. I'm right? And then you have the detained persons in facilities

14 I don't want to mention. Of whom are you now speaking?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was referring to the residents of

16 the local commune of Zasavica who had lived there before the war also, and

17 to people that the police had brought from Samac who were put up in the

18 houses there, put in the houses, not in detention, not in prison; in the

19 houses in the village.

20 JUDGE LINDHOLM: I must ask you a further question. You say "in

21 the houses of the village." Where were they kept?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The commissioner of the local

23 commune, the local community of Zasavica, Mr. Ivica Pandurevic, told us

24 that together with several villagers, he had put up these people into

25 different houses where there was space for these people to be

Page 14269

1 accommodated, and Pandurevic himself has a large, spacious house, into

2 which he took in two or three families, which could live there quite

3 normally. So it was not a prison in that house or in those houses.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. You have given us quite detailed explanation, but let us exhaust

6 this story of Zasavica. You referred to the commissioner of this local

7 commune, Mr. Pandurevic? What is a commissioner? Did such functions

8 exist elsewhere, and what kind of a contact did your service have with

9 such persons holding these posts?

10 A. Every local community in the area of the municipality had its

11 local community commissioner, which was man number one in the village, in

12 other words, who represented the village in question, who came to the

13 Municipal Assembly, to the Red Cross organisation, to the health centre,

14 as the case was maybe, and sought the assistance he required for his

15 village.

16 Q. What nationality was Mr. Pandurevic?

17 A. Mr. Pandurevic was a Croat.

18 Q. Did you have frequent contacts, you personally, with him during

19 the war?

20 A. I had very frequent contacts with Mr. Pandurevic, and everything

21 which was necessary for the villagers of his village, he came to get at

22 the Red Cross, and he got the assistance required, according to the

23 criteria which had already been defined. Also at his request we set up a

24 clinic, an infirmary there, in order to provide medical care to the

25 population which was living there at the time. I believe that a physician

Page 14270

1 went to the infirmary once a week to be on duty there, and as appropriate,

2 he would also go there more often if the need arose.

3 Q. Would you please finish this story of the visit, of your visit

4 with Mr. Matteas. What happened then? Did you have any further talks on

5 the subject? What happened on that occasion? Please explain.

6 A. I personally accompanied Mr. Matteas, went with him to Zasavica.

7 We came to Mr. Pandurevic's home. He asked me to let him talk in my

8 absence to the people who were there, who had come there, after he saw the

9 vehicle of the International Red Cross. Now, what they had actually

10 talked about, I don't know, because he asked me to -- for him to talk

11 himself individually with all the persons who were there, and I indeed saw

12 that he talked to some of those people, Muslims and Croats, those that had

13 been brought from Samac as well as those who lived there originally.

14 Q. Tell me: What do you know, since you say that Zasavica had never

15 been shelled during the war, so tell me: What do you know about the

16 situation with water and electricity, and generally life, or living

17 conditions in that village, in comparison to Samac?

18 A. As regards water, this village had a very well-constructed

19 artesian well with potable water, in other words, and as for electricity,

20 I believe that it was supplied with electricity, just like all the other

21 villages in the area of the municipality. So I believe that the

22 conditions relative to the situation in the city itself were much safer

23 and much better. In terms of the shelling and given the uncertainty that

24 the shelling and the firing entailed for the citizens of the town.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Will the witness be shown document

Page 14271

1 internally marked D0017, please. This is a document that was introduced

2 at one point by the Prosecution -- by the Defence - sorry - of Mr. Simic.

3 It is dated the 29th of September, 1992.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm familiar with this

5 document. I signed it. And this document, or rather, this letter, with

6 this letter, I addressed the Executive Board of the Municipal Assembly,

7 with the request for them to provide a certain quantity of food for us.

8 You can see in the letter that there were 245 people living there at the

9 time. So I'm asking for a certain quantity of flour, given the fact that

10 the Red Cross was unable to supply such flour, according to the request of

11 Mr. Pandurevic.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Tell me: Do you remember now the date when these people -- you

14 said you don't remember the date when these people were brought. Did this

15 number of 245 people include both the inhabitants of Zasavica and those

16 who had been brought there then?

17 A. This number refers to them all, the total figure.

18 Q. So at the time of this letter, these people had already been

19 brought to Zasavica?

20 A. Yes, and that was the reason why I asked for additional quantities

21 of food for that particular community, because I could not meet the

22 requirements, the request of Mr. Pandurevic, according to certain already

23 defined criteria.

24 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Excuse me, Mr. Lukic. Could you read out -- this

25 is a very short letter, but could you read it out or get it into English?

Page 14272

1 I understand that it's a question of 245 people, but it would be

2 interesting to know the exact --

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Lukic. I think the problem with

5 the 245 is that it appears in the B/C/S version, but a line has been left

6 out in the English translation. There are -- after Zasavica, MZ Zasavica

7 in the B/C/S version, there's a full stop and then there's another

8 sentence with the population figure in. That sentence beginning: "U

9 [phoen] Zasavica," et cetera, is missing in the English version.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps it would be best if I were to

11 read out this letter, after all, for your benefit, so that it could be

12 interpreted. Or perhaps the witness could read it.

13 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Thank you.

14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Please, Mr. Maslic, take the document in your hand and read it

16 slowly. Tell us -- so subject --

17 A. "Subject of the letter is provision of flour for the inhabitants of

18 Zasavica, we request -- we are addressing you with this letter, asking you

19 to approve (supply or provide) 1 tonne of flour for the needs of the

20 population, of the inhabitants of the local community of Zasavica." Full

21 stop. "There are currently accommodated in Zasavica 245 inhabitants of

22 different ages --"

23 Q. I believe that this sufficiently clarifies this point. I believe

24 that it is okay.

25 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Thank you. Could we have a number?

Page 14273

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We're waiting for the number. If the

2 registrar will kindly assign us one.

3 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit D99/3 and ter.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Tell me: You mentioned this yesterday, and let us amplify a bit

6 on this subject now. You said that there was heavy influx of refugees

7 into the territory of Samac municipality. What was the role of the Red

8 Cross in respect of those refugees? Were any records made? Were these

9 records submitted to anyone?

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Will the document D46/3 please be

11 given to the witness.

12 A. I said at the very outset, in the beginning of my statement, that

13 prior to the outbreak of war in the area of Samac municipality, there had

14 been accommodated in our territory a number of refugees that had come from

15 the Republic of Croatia from war-ridden areas in that republic.

16 Q. We know all this. But please, to expedite matters, could you be

17 more specific, more concrete? Did you have larger influxes of refugees,

18 et cetera, some more specific information?

19 A. Already at the end of 1993, people started coming from the commune

20 of Odzak, from the municipality of Odzak, and other municipalities, and

21 the number of refugees grew daily, of refugees, people who had relatives

22 or family in our municipality and wished to remain there.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We have a problem, a technical

24 problem, because the witness was able to hear the English interpretation,

25 just as I did.

Page 14274

1 Q. You may continue now.

2 A. As far as I can remember, in late 1992 a commissariat for aid to

3 refugees and humanitarian aid was set up, because the Red Cross

4 organisation was unable to carry out the entire job of registering

5 refugees and taking care of the refugees arriving in the municipality,

6 which is why a special service was set up, which was called the

7 commissariat for refugees and humanitarian aid. Mr. Milorad Mihajlovic

8 was appointed commissioner, and there was another person working with him.

9 Their premises were in the Red Cross, but they took over only that part of

10 the work which consisted in registering refugees. At the level of

11 Republika Srpska, there were forms --

12 Q. We needn't go into detail.

13 A. -- and the forms contained information on the name of the refugee,

14 where they had come from, why they had arrived, where they were

15 accommodated, where they were living now. The commissariat collected this

16 information and delivered it to the UNHCR on a regular basis.

17 Q. Would you please just comment on this document? Would you look at

18 the date and say whether after this date the number of refugees grew or

19 declined.

20 A. This document shows the number of refugees who had already arrived

21 in the Samac municipality and the breakdown by age of these refugees.

22 This information was needed because humanitarian organisations, the ones

23 that provided aid - that was the International Red Cross, the UNHCR, the

24 World Health Organisation - they required this information. This

25 information was contained in forms provided by them.

Page 14275

1 Q. That is sufficient.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Previous translation continues] ... any more, the


4 JUDGE MUMBA: Your question was not answered whether, as from the

5 date of that document, the number of refugees in fact increased.

6 MR. LUKIC: Right.

7 Q. [Interpretation] Wishing to expedite matters, I forgot. After

8 this report mentioning some 6.000 refugees in the autumn of 1992, after

9 that, did the number of refugees increase, and until when did this trend

10 continue?

11 A. The number of refugees grew daily. And as far as I know, in 1994

12 or 1995, in the Samac municipality, there were about 10.000 refugees.

13 Q. Tell me, please: Do you know when the detainees -- just one more

14 question about refugees. Have you heard of the village of Cernica, and do

15 you know anything about it?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you tell us briefly?

18 A. Cernica is a village in the Gradacac municipality, which is about

19 30 kilometres away from Samac, and it was controlled by the army of Bosnia

20 and Herzegovina, that is, the Muslim army.

21 Q. Did all the inhabitants of that village cross over to your

22 municipality, and when?

23 A. In the summer of 1992 we were informed in the Red Cross that an

24 organised group of about 186 families from Cernica were on their way to

25 Samac, and these families were of Serb ethnicity. What we heard in the

Page 14276

1 Red Cross was that they had been allowed to leave and set out in whatever

2 direction they wanted, and they wanted to go to Samac.

3 Q. And were they accommodated on the territory?

4 A. The Red Cross and the commissariat for refugees, that is, our

5 activists, received the refugees, provided the basic necessities, and they

6 stayed in the municipality of Samac and lived there.

7 Q. Thank you. Do you remember when the detainees, that is, the

8 persons detained in the TO and the schools, when they were transferred to

9 Batkovici?

10 A. I can't remember the exact time, but I know that the time they

11 spent in Samac was brief.

12 Q. Mr. Maslic, can you tell us what Batkovic was? It has already

13 been mentioned in this case. We know it's a village, but can you tell us

14 something about it? Where is it?

15 A. As far as I know, it's a village in the municipality of Bijeljina,

16 about 90 kilometres away from Samac. It's a village where there was a

17 prison for soldiers, and it was controlled by the army.

18 Q. Who gave approval for a person from Batkovic to be exchanged?

19 A. As far as I know, it was military commissions who asked for that

20 approval, and it was the military authorities that gave it.

21 Q. Did you, as a civilian commission -- or rather, were you able to

22 ask for someone from Batkovici to be exchanged or to take someone from

23 Batkovici to be exchanged without the approval of the military

24 authorities?

25 A. The civilian commission never had this authority, and we were not

Page 14277

1 able to do so.

2 Q. Do you know that someone from the civilian commissions ever went

3 to Batkovici and at whose request -- and at whose orders?

4 A. As far as I remember, Mr. Tadic, on the request of the military

5 commission from the 1st Corps, with the approval of the military

6 authorities, went to Batkovic to bring detainees in a bus. As far as I

7 know, this was done for technical reasons, because there are about 90

8 kilometres, as I said, between Batkovici and Samac, and from Samac to

9 Dragalici, or Novska, there are 300 to 400 kilometres. So that on that

10 occasion, as far as I can remember, Tadic brought the detainees as far as

11 Samac, in a bus. They spent the night there on the premises, I think, of

12 the Territorial Defence Staff. And in the morning they were taken in the

13 same bus, with a police escort, to be exchanged in Dragalic.

14 Q. We will come back to that exchange. Did you ever go to Batkovici?

15 A. I never went to Batkovici.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, the witness has referred to

17 technical reasons being the reason why Mr. Tadic had to go and collect

18 these prisoners of war or military detainees, whereas he was working in

19 the civilian commission. That evidence won't mean much to you unless you

20 know what technical reasons it was that compelled him to go to Batkovici

21 given all the rest of the evidence in the case.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic. Can the witness tell us the

23 technical reasons?

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Do you know why this request was made from the military

Page 14278

1 authorities for Tadic to go and get the detainees?

2 A. I said it was a technical reason because someone had to go from

3 Banja Luka to Bijeljina, and in order to arrive in Dragalic at 1.00 from

4 Bijeljina and to pass from Bijeljina to Dragalic, they would have to

5 undertake a journey of 400 kilometres. And along that route, they would

6 be stopped at some ten or so checkpoints. So they would have had to

7 travel all night in order to arrive in time. And as I said, it was only

8 90 kilometres away, and that was the technical reason why Mr. Tadic did

9 this at the request of the military commission.

10 Q. On those occasions when military prisoners were taken for

11 exchange, and also citizens from Samac were to be exchanged, did you ever

12 go?

13 A. As I said, in almost every exchange that took place, civilians

14 were also exchanged, and then the families of the soldiers who had come

15 from Batkovici would join in the exchange and go with them, as far as I

16 can remember.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I ask that the following documents be

18 put before the witness: D13, D13/3, that is, and D14/3. They can be shown

19 to the witness together.

20 Q. Do you know that representatives of other civilian commissions

21 with whom you cooperated also went to Batkovici at the request of military

22 representatives? Do you know anything about this?

23 A. I heard that representatives from the Modrica municipality went

24 there also, but I don't know anything specific about this.

25 Q. These are two letters. Would you please tell us to whom the first

Page 14279

1 one was addressed, to whom the second one was addressed, and what these

2 documents refer to.

3 A. This first document -- when you say the first, can you tell us

4 what the number is and can you tell us to whom it was addressed?

5 A. It was addressed to the Main Staff of the army of Republika

6 Srpska, to Mr. Zdravko Tolimir personally, on Pale, and it was sent by

7 Mr. Milutin Grujicic, the president of commission for exchanges of the 1st

8 Krajina Corps.

9 Q. Can you tell us the date?

10 A. It was the 1st of June, 1993?

11 Q. Do you see any of your fellow townspeople on this list?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. This other letter, what date does it bear, and can you comment on

14 it?

15 A. This document was also sent by Mr. Milutin Grujicic. He was the

16 president of the commission for exchanges of the 1st Krajina Corps. And

17 he addressed it to the command of the East Bosnian Corps. As far as I can

18 recall, Colonel Pero Jakovljevic was the security officer of the corps,

19 and he asked him to make it possible for the prisoners on the list to be

20 exempt, or to be separated out. And it's evident from the letter.

21 Q. Do you recall that your commission organised for their families to

22 accompany those people from Samac? Do you remember that?

23 A. I think the families did go. I know that the family of

24 Zaimbegovic Esref went, and another person's family.

25 Q. Do you have any knowledge of what happened to these people when

Page 14280

1 they were taken from Batkovici to Samac and then to Dragalic?

2 A. I heard that when they spent the night in Samac, that they were

3 mistreated and beaten by the police. And when they went to be exchanged,

4 some of them had visible injuries resulting from the beatings. Mr. Tadic

5 and Grujicic intervened because of this, through the police, and also they

6 intervened with the army leaders, because it was inappropriate for that to

7 be done to those people. Grujicic informed me of that at the exchange,

8 and so did Mr. Tadic. And I think that there is a document which shows

9 that Grujicic suggested very strongly that he condemned this action.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think it is time to

11 break. I can promise that I will be very brief on Monday, but I would not

12 be able to pinpoint the exact time I will take.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well. We shall adjourn and continue our

14 proceedings on Monday at 0900 hours.

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,

16 to be reconvened on Monday, the 20th day of

17 January 2003, at 9.00 a.m.