1 Monday, 27 January 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

5 [The witness entered court]

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, case number IT-95-9-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Miroslav Tadic, and Simo Zaric.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, we continue with the witness, Mr. Krgovic.

10 WITNESS: MLADEN BORBELI [Resumed]

11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 Examined by Mr. Krgovic: [Continued]

13 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours, good

14 afternoon, Mr. Borbeli. I hope that you're doing fine and I hope that we

15 can continue with this examination of ours.

16 If you don't feel well during the examination, please feel free to

17 tell us, we are going to take a break so that you could pull yourself

18 together. So please, at any point, if you feel you're not feeling well,

19 just tell us?

20 A. I feel fine.

21 Q. Mr. Borbeli, yesterday, or rather on Friday, when we stopped, I

22 asked you something about what happened in Samac between the 17th and 18th

23 of April; however, we're going back to an episode that you mentioned

24 during your examination when you saw that group of young men, Muslims, in

25 the hallway of your building, you said that among them you recognised one

1 of your fellow citizens, that that was the waiter from the pizza parlour

2 of the Bicic brothers you said that you could not remember his name. Do

3 you perhaps know what his last name is?

4 A. I do, Dagovic.

5 Q. Tell me, sir, does he live somewhere near you?

6 A. He lives in the same street.

7 MR. KRGOVIC: Exhibit P61 ter and P61 -- and P62 ter.

8 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Borbeli, would you please take a look at

9 these documents. Please look at photographs of this man. Tell me, is

10 that the young man that you saw in your building, in the hallway of your

11 building that night?

12 A. His father's name was Sabrija, this man's father's name was

13 Sabrija.

14 Q. Do you recognise him?

15 A. I do [Realtime transcript read in error "Do I"].

16 Q. Is that the young man that you saw in the hallway that night?

17 A. Well, yes.

18 Q. Thank you. Mr. Usher, I don't need the document any longer, thank

19 you.

20 Mr. Borbeli, now I'm going to ask you the following: Tell me, in

21 the period after the 17th of April when we talked about the 18th of April,

22 you mentioned that you saw a vehicle on which there was a soldier who was

23 inviting people over a megaphone to hand in their weapons, that's what you

24 said. Now tell me, on that day, in your street, in the street of Pero

25 Bosic?

1 A. I did not see.

2 MR. LAZAREVIC: One correction in the transcript, page 2 line 14,

3 the answer says "do I" and actually it was "I do." So maybe this is

4 something that my colleague should clarify this --

5 JUDGE MUMBA: No that can be corrected because the two words are

6 there on the record.

7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Did you see a tank in that day on the street - I'm sorry because

9 not all of my questions in the transcript because I didn't finish?

10 A. No.

11 Q. On that day, on the 18th of April, did you see Miroslav Tadic?

12 A. No.

13 Q. In your street, I mean. I mean in your street?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Mr. Borbeli, tell me, what was the situation like in Bosanski

16 Samac during those first few days with regard to electricity, were there

17 power cuts during those first few days?

18 A. There was no power for a long time.

19 Q. Can you say in relation to the 17th of April how long after the

20 17th of April there was a power cut, you don't have to give us an exact

21 date, could you just give us an approximation, 10 days, 15 days?

22 A. For 17 days.

23 Q. Tell me, what about the telephones, did they stop working in Samac

24 after a while?

25 A. Yes, immediately the telephones stopped working too.

1 Q. Tell me, did the telephones stop working for everyone?

2 A. Yes, for everyone.

3 Q. When you say everyone --

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Right, if my friend's going to clarify the basis of

5 that question, then I have nothing to say.

6 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. When you say everyone, does that pertain to all citizens or were

8 there differences along ethnic lines?

9 A. This pertained to all citizens.

10 Q. I would just like to ask you to wait for the end of my question

11 and then give your answer because there seems to be an overlapping all the

12 time and we shouldn't make the work of the interpreters too difficult so

13 please pause for a few seconds after having heard my question.

14 Mr. Borbeli, when did the telephones start working again in Samac

15 and when did the power supply continue?

16 A. Well not much time went by.

17 Q. In 1993 or was it 1992, could you pinpoint a year?

18 A. In 1992, I was not in the apartment from the 17th of May onwards

19 so I don't know exactly when the telephones started working again.

20 Q. Were the telephones of all citizens reconnected?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Was there a special procedure, did one have to submit an

23 application?

24 A. Whoever wanted to submitted an application, I didn't.

25 Q. Tell me, in the period 1992/1993 when you returned to your

1 apartment, was it possible to communicate by telephone with Croatia, with

2 a part of Bosnia and Herzegovina that was under the control of the Muslims

3 and the Croats or were there other ways of communication?

4 A. I don't remember because I did not have a telephone.

5 Q. Mr. Borbeli, I'm going to finish with this subject and we're going

6 to move on to a period that is different, that is to say, the second half

7 of May, did anybody come to see you in the second half of May, did anybody

8 come to your apartment after the 17th of May?

9 A. On the 17th of May, a policeman came and he said: Get ready. In

10 five minutes, you are going with me. And I asked him where. And he

11 said: Down by the department store. I got ready in five minutes and I

12 left with him going to the department store. When I got there, I saw a

13 group of citizens, perhaps about 25 or 30 of them who were waiting there

14 and I asked my neighbour, what are you looking for here? And he said

15 we're waiting for a truck to go, I said where, and he said Crkvina. And

16 the truck came shortly. We went to Crkvina. We were put up at the

17 football stadium and we stayed there until the afternoon, perhaps 3.00 or

18 4.00 in the afternoon. Then we came back --

19 Q. I apologise, Mr. Borbeli. Could you just pause for a second. I

20 want to put a few questions to you in relation to that.

21 Tell me, who took you to Crkvina, who escorted you to Crkvina?

22 A. Policemen.

23 Q. Who guarded you while you were at the stadium in Crkvina?

24 A. Well, there was the military in camouflage uniforms.

25 Q. Was it those people in camouflage uniforms?

1 A. Well, it's camouflage uniform as far as I'm concerned.

2 Q. You said that you spent an afternoon there and where did you go

3 after that?

4 A. Then we were driven to Samac to the secondary school there, to the

5 gym.

6 Q. Tell me, Mr. Borbeli, during those first few days, while you were

7 at the secondary school or rather while you were there, how many people

8 were there with you approximately, you don't have to give us an exact

9 number?

10 A. Well, it was close to 300 people.

11 Q. Mr. Borbeli, when you -- did you talk to those people and if you

12 talked to them did they tell you why they were brought there, did they say

13 anything about weapons, if they had weapons?

14 A. I asked some of those people who came with me together from the

15 stadium if they had weapons and they said, well, yes, I did and I handed

16 the weapons over.

17 Q. And after they handed the weapons over, were they brought over to

18 the secondary school?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Where were those people from, the ones who had the weapons, were

21 they from villages or from the town?

22 A. They were villagers, I think, from Zasavica, Hasic, Gornji and

23 Donji and Hrvatska Tisina.

24 Q. What was their age, were they of different ages or were they all

25 more or less the same age?

1 A. There were younger people and there were quite old people there.

2 Q. Mr. Borbeli, do you know whether those people were questioned in

3 relation to the weapons, was any investigation conducted?

4 A. I don't know about that. I was never questioned myself.

5 Q. I'm not asking about you, I'm asking about those people who were

6 there, we'll come back to you later. Those people who had the weapons,

7 were they questioned?

8 MR. DI FAZIO: The witness has said he doesn't know about that.

9 That's the end of the matter, I would have thought.

10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Mr. Borbeli, did anybody question you?

12 A. Me?

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. No, never.

15 Q. Mr. Borbeli, how much time did you spend at the secondary school?

16 A. Three months, perhaps, three months and seven days.

17 Q. Can you please tell me what the conditions were like, what did you

18 sleep on, did you get any food?

19 A. The conditions were not good. We did receive food, but not

20 enough. We slept on the floor.

21 Q. Was there any possibility for you to receive food from the

22 outside, did citizens bring you food?

23 A. In the beginning, the citizens brought us food, perhaps for a

24 month or two; however, later, the Red Cross sent food for us.

25 Q. Who, on behalf of the Red Cross, brought the food for you?

1 A. Vaso and Sveto [as interpreted].

2 Q. Mr. Borbeli, could you please tell us if you were visited by a

3 doctor, was there any medical staff?

4 A. The doctors came as needed, every other day.

5 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, another clarification of the

6 transcript, on page 7, line 25, it says Vaso and Sveto and it is actually

7 one person, Sveto Vasovic, Vasovic Sveto.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, it will be corrected.

9 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. You answered my question about the doctors, but did any nurses

11 also come to see you?

12 A. Yes, they did.

13 Q. How frequent were the visits by the doctors and how frequent were

14 the visits by the nurses?

15 A. The nurses came almost every morning.

16 Q. And the doctors?

17 A. According to need, every second or third day, if anybody needed a

18 doctor, they would get one, a doctor would be requested.

19 Q. Mr. Borbeli, could you please tell me if you were beaten in the

20 secondary school?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did they beat the other detainees who were with you?

23 A. During the time that I was there, perhaps this happened on a

24 couple of occasions that some younger men were beaten.

25 Q. In relation to the number of the detainees who were in the

1 secondary school, how many of them were actually beaten?

2 A. 10 to 15.

3 Q. Sir, could you please tell me, except for Sveto Vasovic, did

4 anybody else come from the Red Cross to ask you if you wanted to go on an

5 exchange?

6 A. Yes, a Red Cross official came and she asked who wanted to -- who

7 did not want to be exchanged and I said that I did not wish to be

8 exchanged, some other people also spoke up so perhaps there were about

9 nine of us.

10 Q. Did this official of the Red Cross write that down?

11 A. Yes, she had a large notebook with her and this was written down.

12 Q. When I mentioned Sveto Vasovic, I did not formulate my question

13 exactly. Who asked you, Sveto Vasovic or this official whether you wanted

14 to be exchanged or not?

15 A. This woman, this official did.

16 Q. Could you please tell me whether that was a woman from the local

17 Red Cross or from the International Red Cross?

18 A. From the local Red Cross. I knew her slightly, but I knew her by

19 sight, I didn't actually know her very well.

20 Q. Could you please tell me, sir, when did you leave the secondary

21 school and when you left, did something happen at the end of August and

22 did you go somewhere?

23 A. Did I go? Did I leave the secondary school?

24 Q. When did you leave the secondary school and for what reason?

25 A. A police officer came and asked for 16 people who were to work in

1 Zasavica and I volunteered. He needed 16 people. This happened very

2 quickly, people volunteered and we left that same day for Zasavica for

3 work duty.

4 Q. Sir, could you please tell me, during your stay at the secondary

5 school, did you ever see Miroslav Tadic?

6 A. No.

7 Q. How much time did you spend at Zasavica?

8 A. I went to Zasavica sometime in mid-August and I was exchanged at

9 the beginning of September. This was probably then about 17 days that I

10 spent at Zasavica, as far as I can recall.

11 Q. Sir, could you please tell me where you lived at Zasavica?

12 A. I lived in a private house at an acquaintance of mine.

13 Q. Could you please tell me what you did at Zasavica?

14 A. We slaughtered pigs and prepared meat for the soldiers.

15 Q. What were the conditions in Zasavica, did you have enough food,

16 did you have enough water, what were the sanitary conditions like?

17 A. The conditions in Zasavica were good.

18 Q. There's something in the transcript that needs to be clarified,

19 could you please tell me how time did you spend in Zasavica? As far as I

20 understood you, you said from mid-August until early September?

21 A. About 17 days.

22 Q. Could you please tell me if you remember, were there any police in

23 Zasavica itself, did you see any police officers there? What was the

24 situation there? Did anybody guard you if you saw it?

25 A. We were not guarded in Zasavica, we were like free. When we had

1 work, we worked and when we didn't have any work, we were staying in the

2 houses where we lived.

3 Q. Could you please tell me how you left Zasavica? You said that you

4 were called for the exchange at the beginning of September, so could you

5 please tell me who came to inform you and where you went from Zasavica?

6 A. In the evening at about 9.00, a person came who was there with us,

7 a detainee and he said to me: Get ready by 10.00, a truck will

8 come. You're going to be exchanged. I said: Very well.

9 Q. Sir, could you please tell me if you did get ready?

10 A. Yes, I did get ready. I came up to the truck which was standing

11 at the crossroads, then I was taken to Samac to the elementary school. I

12 spent the night there and the next day, I was exchanged.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: It's just not clear to me and I suggest it should

14 be clarified, is the witness saying that someone came at 9.00 at night and

15 to get ready by 10.00 at night, that is, that evening, because it's not

16 entirely clear to me if Mr. Krgovic could just clarify that.

17 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes and another clarification, because I was

18 listening very carefully to what the witness was saying and on page 11,

19 line 12, it was translated, "I was exchanged," and this is not actually

20 what the witness was saying and because I was informed by Mr. Krgovic

21 about the testimony of this witness and he actually said, I was taken to

22 the exchange.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Let's get clarification because at the beginning the

24 witness had said he had refused to be exchanged.

25 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. Sir, I would just like to clarify the first thing stated by my

2 learned friend, the Prosecutor. This man who came, he told you at 9.00 to

3 get ready by 10.00 that evening or by the next day?

4 A. That same evening.

5 Q. Sir, could you please tell me, you told this woman from the Red

6 Cross that you did not wish to be exchanged; is that right?

7 A. Yes, it is.

8 Q. So where did you go by truck from Zasavica?

9 A. To the elementary school in Samac.

10 Q. How much time did you spend there?

11 A. Just one night and then the next morning to the exchange.

12 Q. Could you please tell me when did you leave in the morning, could

13 you please tell me who took you out from the elementary school? Who was

14 at the door guarding the elementary school where you spent the night?

15 A. There were police officers.

16 Q. How did you leave the elementary school, did you go directly to

17 the trucks?

18 A. There was a roll call, people were called out and that's how we

19 went to the truck.

20 Q. Do you know who called out the names?

21 A. I can't remember. There were a lot of people there so I didn't

22 really see.

23 Q. Did you enter the bus?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. Sir, could you please tell me if you saw Miroslav Tadic in front

1 of the school?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Mr. Borbeli, how many buses left for the exchange; do you

4 remember?

5 A. That day, two buses left for the exchange, one from Samac and

6 another one was from somewhere else, perhaps from Derventa.

7 Q. Could you please tell me where you were going to?

8 A. We were going to the exchange.

9 Q. Where was it that you stopped first?

10 A. We came to Bosanska Gradiska, we couldn't get passage there, the

11 UNPROFOR did not let us cross over the bridge, over the Sava River to

12 Croatia, so we waited for about five hours.

13 Q. Could you please tell me where the buses stopped in Gradiska?

14 A. In the centre.

15 Q. Were you able to leave the bus?

16 A. Yes, those who wanted to could go out to drink something, to cool

17 down. I didn't leave the bus.

18 Q. When you say they were able to go out and drink something, what

19 did you mean, did you have water and juices with you in the bus?

20 A. Yes, there was water, there were juices and people were eager to

21 go out and sit in a garden of the restaurant, so several people came out

22 of the bus and sat down outside to have a beer.

23 Q. How long did you stay there?

24 A. Four to five hours we waited to cross over.

25 Q. And when you left, where did you set out for?

1 A. When we set out, we crossed the bridge over the Sava River and we

2 were going to the -- to Dragalovici.

3 Q. And when you got there, did you leave the bus?

4 A. Yes, we got there and we left the bus. Miroslav Tadic came up to

5 us and said: Men, those of you who do not want to go to the exchange do

6 not have to and if you want to go back to your homes, you can. And I said

7 right away, that's what I want.

8 Q. What happened after that? Was anybody there that you could talk

9 to who asked you if you wanted to go over to the other side, could you

10 please describe this event a little bit?

11 A. We crossed over and we lined up two by two and I saw the

12 International Red Cross. They had a large red cross on their chest so

13 that was the International Red Cross and they explained to us there and

14 then how the exchange was going to proceed, who wanted to proceed, yes,

15 who did not, no.

16 Q. You say the International Red Cross, was this some foreigner or

17 was this a local man, the one you described with the red cross on his

18 chest?

19 A. It was a foreigner because I saw when I said no, the other one

20 made a mark and then spoke to him and I saw that he was a foreigner. Then

21 it was clear to me that this was the International Red Cross.

22 Q. Tell me, over there where you expressed your positions, was

23 Miroslav Tadic present there or any representatives of the Serb side? Did

24 you see them there at that spot?

25 A. I did not.

1 Q. Tell me, Mr. Borbeli, apart from you, did anybody else say that

2 they did not want to cross over to the other side?

3 A. Seven more people said so. They didn't want to go any further to

4 be exchanged.

5 Q. Do you know their names?

6 A. Yes, I can remember.

7 Q. If you can, could you please give us the names of these people?

8 A. Marosevic, Mato; Alojz Balogh; Stipo Vukovic; Ivan Lonac; a

9 Bosniak, Alija Cosic.

10 Q. Tell me, sir, these people who stated their views, namely that

11 they want to cross over to the other side, did they actually go?

12 A. They returned together with me.

13 Q. I am referring to the people who said that they wanted to cross

14 over to the Croatian side, where did they go?

15 A. I can't say.

16 Q. And these people who said that they did not want to cross to the

17 to the other side, what happened to them, what happened to you, where did

18 you go?

19 A. Then we returned home.

20 Q. I mean that particular moment of the exchange, at the exchange,

21 what did you do at that very spot, did you enter the bus?

22 A. We immediately entered the bus.

23 Q. Who entered the bus in order to return to Samac together with you

24 or rather did anybody else enter the bus?

25 A. Miroslav Tadic was there, he returned together with us.

1 Q. What about the Serbs who had come from the other side, were any of

2 them with you on the bus?

3 A. There was an exchange from Slavonski Brod, that is where Serbs

4 were exchanged as well, and then we went together to Samac.

5 Q. Sir, tell me, were any known people from Samac on the bus together

6 with you, people who then crossed over to the Croatian side, somebody that

7 you knew?

8 A. I don't find this very clear.

9 Q. In addition to you, and these people who returned, do you know any

10 of the people who were on the bus with you who had set out for the

11 exchange and who did not return to Samac?

12 A. Oh, you mean they went further on, you mean they went further on.

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. Well, I don't know. I knew quite a few of these people. Dragan

15 Delic, I know. Then Barucic, Franjo.

16 MR. KRGOVIC: May the witness be shown Exhibit D3/3 ter.

17 [Interpretation] D3/3 ter.

18 Q. Mr. Borbeli, please look at this list.

19 A. Oh, now -- am I supposed to say who did not go back, who went

20 further on?

21 Q. First of all, look at this list and tell me are the names of the

22 persons you mentioned who did not go for an exchange, people who returned

23 to Samac the ones that you mentioned are they on this list?

24 A. They are, Vukovic, Stipo; Balogh Alojz.

25 Q. Please just give me the numbers?

1 A. 1 -- do you want me to give you the serial number.

2 Q. The serial number and the name?

3 A. 1. Vukovic, Stipo; 2. Balogh Alojz; Kikic Stjepan, number five;

4 Marosevic Mato, number 10.

5 Q. Do you see Lonac Ivan somewhere there, under number 8?

6 A. Juric Mato, 30.

7 Q. Could you please look at number 27, Cosic Alija, is that what you

8 see there?

9 A. I don't recall. Lukac Dragan, 25.

10 Q. Cosic Alija, 27?

11 A. Yes, Cosic Alija, 27.

12 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Borbeli.

13 Mr. Usher, thank you. I don't need the document any further, you

14 can take it now.

15 Q. Mr. Borbeli, when you boarded the bus, you set out for Samac, did

16 you stop anywhere on the way?

17 A. We returned the same way via Gradiska to Odzak. We got there when

18 it was almost midnight and we had dinner, well, when we had dinner,

19 Miroslav Tadic said: Men, I'm going to pay for dinner, perhaps some

20 people do have money and perhaps others do not. After that, we came to

21 Samac.

22 Q. Tell me, Mr. Borbeli, did you find out later on who came looking

23 for you or whether anybody came looking for you to go for an exchange?

24 A. I found out but when the war was over in 1996 in the month of May

25 when I met up with my sister and nephew in Orasje, it is only then that I

1 found out. Before that, I didn't know.

2 Q. Were they the ones who were looking for you, asking for you to be

3 exchanged?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Tell me, Mr. Borbeli, after Odzak, where did you go?

6 A. We went home towards Samac and we did come to Samac. It was after

7 midnight, perhaps it was even about 1.30, then we stopped by the Serb

8 church and I asked Miroslav Tadic whether I should report to the

9 authorities the next day and he said: No, do you have any place to go.

10 And I said: Well I have my own apartment.

11 Q. These people who were with you, who returned from the exchange,

12 did they also come out in Samac and go to their homes?

13 A. Yes, but this was close for us, Stipo Vukovic and I got off there

14 by the church because he has a daughter who is married there and I have a

15 relative where I left the key of the apartment.

16 Q. Sir, did you return to your apartment?

17 A. I returned the next day. I spent the night there at my relative's

18 place and the next day, I went to the apartment.

19 Q. These people who returned with you from the exchange, did they

20 also return to their apartments?

21 A. Yes, they did.

22 Q. Do some of them live in Samac until the present day?

23 A. Until the present day, they've been living in their apartments and

24 houses.

25 Q. Have any of them died in the mean time?

1 A. Well, this Alija Cosic died and Ivan Lonac did too.

2 Q. What was Ivan Lonac before the war, what position did he hold?

3 A. I didn't hear you.

4 Q. Ivan Lonac, what position did he hold before the war?

5 A. As far as I can remember, he was commander of the police as of

6 late.

7 Q. What is he by ethnicity?

8 A. A Croat.

9 Q. These people who returned from the exchange together with you,

10 what are they by ethnicity except for Alija Cosic who you said was a

11 Bosniak, a Muslim?

12 A. The rest were Croats.

13 Q. Tell me, Mr. Borbeli, when you returned to your apartment, had it

14 been broken into, had somebody moved into it?

15 A. No, the apartment had not been touched.

16 Q. Mr. Borbeli, I'm going to ask you something about living

17 conditions in Samac after your return and I'm just interested in the

18 period until the end of 1993 because that is the period that is included

19 in the indictment. Tell me, in that period, did you live in your

20 apartment in Samac until the end of 1993?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. Tell me, Mr. Borbeli, did you receive your pension?

23 A. I did, regularly. As soon as I came back from the exchange, the

24 very same month, I received my pension.

25 Q. Did you have to resubmit an application or something?

1 A. No. I just gave my relative the receipt for my last pension and

2 before I went for the exchange, I gave it to her and then when I came

3 back, I received my first next pension.

4 Q. Did you receive it regularly throughout the war including this

5 period until 1993?

6 A. Well, yes, regularly, but one could not live on that. Money was

7 worthless.

8 Q. Why? Was there an inflation?

9 A. There was big inflation.

10 Q. Tell me, did all pensioners receive such pensions?

11 A. Yes, everybody, regardless, regardless of ethnic affiliation.

12 Q. Tell me, sir, did you receive humanitarian aid?

13 A. Yes, I did. Yes, I did.

14 Q. Tell me, who did you receive it from and where did you collect it?

15 A. I received it from the Red Cross and there was this big warehouse

16 across the street from the SUP, there was a big warehouse there and that

17 is where humanitarian aid was being handed out.

18 Q. Tell me, what did you receive by way of humanitarian aid, what was

19 its structure?

20 A. Well, tins, flour, oil, sugar, the bare necessities. Also some

21 toiletries.

22 Q. What was the living condition in Samac like, was there any

23 shelling after your return from the exchange?

24 A. Living conditions were very hard and all of that was because of

25 the shelling. No one ever knew what kind of shelling would take place and

1 when and you always had to be cautious, seek shelter, not walk around town

2 or whatever.

3 Q. Tell me, did people leave Samac?

4 A. Yes, they did. People did what ever they could do, they left and

5 one noticed from year to year that the town was getting empty. I, as one

6 of those who remained, realised that this was going on.

7 Q. Do you know how these people left Samac? Was there a semi-legal

8 way of getting out?

9 A. Well, people left Samac, they made documents, those who went to

10 Serbia so they could go to Serbia.

11 Q. Tell us what this means, what does it mean to make a document?

12 Does that mean false documents with somebody else's name?

13 A. Well, only a personal identity card was needed, nothing else.

14 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Krgovic I'm just wondering about

15 your question at line 8 at page 21, when you asked, "Was there a

16 semi-legal way of getting out?" I'm just wondering what you mean by

17 semi-legal as such?

18 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] In a illegal way, these personal

19 identity cards, I wanted to explain what was legal and what was not legal

20 because during the preparation of this witness, he was the one who used

21 this term so I would like to explain or I would like him to explain what

22 he meant by that.

23 JUDGE WILLIAMS: All right.

24 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Mr. Borbeli, could you please -- well, my question refers to

1 members of the Croat and Muslim ethnicity, did they make identity cards

2 with some other people's names and in that way, did they go to Serbia and

3 did they have to pay a certain amount of money for that, is that what you

4 meant when you mentioned this?

5 A. Those identity cards were made as if a Serb was going; however, it

6 was not a Serb who was going but a Bosniak.

7 Q. Were Serbs leaving Samac as well?

8 A. Yes, everybody was leaving, whoever wanted to go went.

9 Q. Mr. Borbeli, I would like to ask you something about Mr. Miroslav

10 Tadic. How long have you known Miroslav Tadic, you said something a

11 little bit and how do you know him?

12 A. I've known Miroslav Tadic for almost 30 years.

13 Q. Mr. Borbeli, do you know that Mr. Miroslav -- do you know whether

14 Mr. Miroslav Tadic forced you or anybody else to go to be exchanged?

15 A. No, no.

16 Q. Did you hear in Samac about Miroslav Tadic forcing anybody to

17 leave Samac?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Did you notice, in contacts with you, or members of other ethnic

20 groups, behaved differently, did he exhibit any kind of discriminatory

21 behaviour?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did you hear about Miroslav Tadic insulting anybody on ethnic

24 grounds or --

25 A. No.

1 Q. Mr. Borbeli, at the end, I would like to ask you, on the 17th of

2 April, 1992 in the morning when you woke up, did you want to leave Samac?

3 A. No. I never thought about leaving Samac.

4 Q. Mr. Borbeli, did you have an opportunity to leave Samac?

5 A. Yes, I could have gone on an exchange whenever I wanted, I could

6 have applied to go. At the old pensioner's hall, there was a notice

7 stating that those who wanted to go to Croatian territory and to the other

8 territory, the Bosnian Muslim territory could sign up if they wished to

9 go. I just read that, turned around, and left. I wasn't interested in

10 that.

11 Q. Did you have an opportunity to go in an illegal way through

12 Serbia?

13 A. Yes, I also had that opportunity but I did not want that.

14 Q. Was there a possibility if you went to Croatia to be mobilised

15 into the HVO?

16 A. Well no, I'm not really up for the HVO because I was 61 years old

17 at the time.

18 Q. Mr. Borbeli, do you live in Bosanski Samac today?

19 A. I do.

20 Q. Do you live in your apartment where you --

21 A. I live in my apartment which I bought two years ago.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Krgovic, this evidence has been repeated. I

23 think you are finished.

24 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I am finished. This was my

25 last question, Your Honour.

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Any other counsel who wishes to ask the witness

2 questions? I see none.

3 MR. LAZAREVIC: No, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Cross-examination by the Prosecution.

5 Cross-examined by Mr. Di Fazio:

6 Q. Mr. Borbeli, you spoke this afternoon about the situation

7 regarding telephones and you said that the telephones were cut off and

8 they were cut off for all citizens?

9 A. Yes. Yes.

10 Q. All right. Now, how do you know that they were cut off for all

11 citizens?

12 A. I know about the building that I lived in. In my building, there

13 are Muslims and people of Serb ethnicity and Croats, nobody had a

14 telephone.

15 Q. And it's that, that experience, what happened to you, what you saw

16 in your building, that makes you say that telephones were cut off for all

17 citizens.

18 A. Yes, that's right.

19 Q. Thank you. You also spoke of Crkvina. On the 17th of May, you

20 were taken by police to Crkvina, were you not?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. I think you said first you went to the police station and then you

23 were put on a bus and taken to Crkvina; is that correct?

24 A. No. When we came to Crkvina, we went to the football stadium.

25 Q. Okay. But you were transported, were you, from Bosanski Samac to

1 Crkvina?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Okay. Now, of what ethnicity were the people who had been taken

4 to Crkvina?

5 A. Of Croatian ethnicity.

6 Q. Did anyone explain to you why it was that people of Croatian

7 ethnicity had been rounded up and taken to Crkvina?

8 A. No, nobody ever explained that to me.

9 Q. It must, of course, have been one of the things that was troubling

10 you at the time, you obviously would have wanted to know why it was that

11 people had been rounded up, Croats had been rounded up and taken to

12 Crkvina.

13 A. It was clear to me. I know that that was the policy and that's

14 how it ended.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours just bear with me for a moment,

16 please.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

18 [Prosecution counsel confer]

19 MR. DI FAZIO:

20 Q. What policy is that, Mr. Borbeli?

21 A. National policy.

22 Q. Do you mean the policy of the new authorities in Bosanski Samac?

23 A. I do.

24 Q. Okay. Right. Well, you were taken back to Bosanski Samac that

25 very day, I think.

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. When you were taken back to Bosanski Samac, did other Croats

3 remain at Crkvina?

4 A. They were all returned to Samac in the course of the day.

5 Q. Were you returned early in the day?

6 A. I was returned in the afternoon, perhaps it was about 3.00 or 4.00

7 in the afternoon.

8 Q. All right. And I take it that -- well, let me rephrase that. Am

9 I correct that the Croats who had been rounded up and taken to Crkvina had

10 to be taken back in groups, in other words, transport was going to and fro

11 in order to take people back?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. All right. You were taken to the secondary school gym and again,

14 you said that there were some 300 people there, of what ethnicity --

15 A. That's right. Only of Croatian ethnicity.

16 Q. Can you tell us if the people were rounded up and placed in the

17 high school gym on that day, the 17th of May, or was it apparent to you

18 when you got there that the place had already been housing people?

19 A. As far as I can recall, perhaps there were about ten people there

20 when we went in.

21 Q. Right. And presumably then, people kept coming in, Croats kept

22 coming in until numbers reached around 300; is that the situation?

23 A. Yes, that's true. They came every day and then when they all got

24 there, they went for an exchange, those who wanted to go.

25 Q. Okay. You also said that the people who were there had been

1 arrested for possession of guns. Is it your position that all of these

2 300 Croats had been rounded up and taken into the high school gym for that

3 reason?

4 A. Those were people from the neighbouring villages who had weapons

5 and when they handed them in, they came there. Perhaps they were about

6 150 of them but the others, like I was, those without weapons, they were

7 about half as many.

8 Q. Okay. Did anyone ever tell you why you were in there, why you

9 were being kept there?

10 A. Nobody ever told me so.

11 Q. Did the Red Cross come along and -- I withdraw that question.

12 Was that part of the policy that you've spoken of?

13 A. The question is not clear to me.

14 Q. Okay. The rounding up of 300 Croats in the secondary school gym,

15 in your view, was that part of this policy of the new authorities that

16 you've told us about, that you told the Court about?

17 A. I couldn't say that exactly. I wasn't involved in politics so as

18 far as politics is concerned, I don't know.

19 Q. Were you aware of any of the men in the high school gym, yourself

20 included, ever being charged with any criminal offence?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Very well. I just want to ask you about the conditions in the

23 high school gym. How much food were you receiving and the other

24 prisoners, what was your daily allowance?

25 A. There wasn't enough food. We were given food twice a day, perhaps

1 every other day, there was a cooked meal, but it wasn't enough.

2 Q. Did you lose weight in the three months that you were there?

3 A. A little bit. I lost a little bit and more because I was upset

4 rather than anything else.

5 Q. You were upset, weren't you, at being rounded up and placed in a

6 prison simply because of the fact that you are a Croat or regarded as

7 being a Croat?

8 A. Yes. I wasn't happy there. I was unhappy.

9 Q. Of course. Now, let's just get back to the food. What sort of

10 food were you actually given?

11 A. We received cooked meals, peas, beans, green beans, goulash,

12 that's as far as cooked food is concerned.

13 Q. But that wasn't every day, that was only on every other day, I

14 think you said.

15 A. Yes. Yes.

16 Q. Did the other prisoners lose weight?

17 A. No, they didn't. Perhaps they dropped as much weight as I did.

18 Nobody was that hungry. If they were hungry there was always -- nobody

19 was famished, there was always something to be found to eat.

20 Q. Thank you. And the sleeping conditions were -- well in effect

21 there was nothing provided to you for sleeping, no bedding, pillows,

22 blankets or anything like that?

23 A. There were mattresses on the floor, but there weren't enough of

24 them. But I sent a message to my relative and she sent me three blankets

25 which I got right away so that there weren't any problems.

1 Q. Okay. The beatings that you described that took place in the --

2 in the high school gym, who carried out the beatings?

3 A. Slobodan Miljkovic called Lugar came in with a pistol in his hand,

4 in his right hand and later, he found a glass bottle in the hall and he

5 hit people over the head, both with the bottle and the pistol and he

6 kicked them also. And finally, he killed two people and I saw that

7 myself.

8 Q. Right. And did this terrify the men who were imprisoned?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Apart from Lugar, did other men come in and beat the prisoners?

11 A. Perhaps on two occasions, but it wasn't really a bad beating, it

12 was just sort of incidental.

13 Q. What happened to the bodies of the men that Lugar killed?

14 A. He ordered those who were sleeping next to those people to take

15 the blankets and bring them out into the hall and that is what the people

16 did, took them to the -- out into the hall, that is as much as I know.

17 Q. You said that doctors came every other day, is that to treat the

18 prisoners who had been beaten and sustained injuries as a result of

19 beatings?

20 A. No, that didn't happen. People were nervous and -- because they

21 were afraid mostly, they asked for sleeping pills or tranquilizers.

22 Q. I see and did the Red Cross distribute sleeping pills and

23 tranquilizers to calm them down?

24 A. That's right. That's right.

25 Q. And did you have sleeping pills and tranquilizers?

1 A. No, I didn't.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps this is for the

3 re-examination because the witness said that doctors came and the

4 Prosecutor said -- and the witness said the Red Cross so perhaps it would

5 be important to clarify this who brought the medicines, whether it was the

6 doctors, the nurses, or staff of the Red Cross, perhaps this was -- this

7 would be a good thing to clarify.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes I will clarify that.

9 Q. Who handed out the tranquilizers and the sleeping pills, was it

10 the doctors or the Red Cross?

11 A. As far as I know, the nurses distributed the medicines to those

12 who asked for them. They were given by doctors, the doctors would

13 prescribe them and then the nurses would distribute them. This is what I

14 was able to see.

15 Q. Thank you. Can I just return briefly to the murders that you

16 described. Can you remember when they took place, the murders committed

17 by Lugar?

18 A. I'm not able to say what date it was exactly but it was in early

19 July 1990 [as interpreted], perhaps -- it was the 5th or the 6th of July.

20 Q. You mean July 1992, I think. Can you just tell us, in the

21 transcript Mr. Borbeli, you appear to say that the murders took place in

22 early July 1990, I suggest that you must be mistaken, in fact you must

23 have meant July 1992. I'm correct, aren't I?

24 A. 1992, the beginning of July.

25 Q. All right. And was he alone when he committed these murders or

1 was he in company with other paramilitaries?

2 A. He was alone. He was in a semi-intoxicated state.

3 Q. Right. And how many guards were there at the high school gym on

4 this occasion when he came in alone?

5 A. One guard was outside, the one who was guarding us.

6 Q. Was he armed?

7 A. The guard, yes, he had an automatic rifle.

8 Q. Okay. And I don't want every single detail but how did Lugar

9 actually kill these two men?

10 A. People were sitting down next to the wall and he fired into the

11 chest the first bullet and the second into the forehead.

12 Q. There must have been blood all over the walls, I assume?

13 A. The blood started flowing from the top and I saw what was at

14 hand.

15 Q. Was the blood ever cleaned away?

16 A. Immediately. Immediately.

17 Q. All right. Now, I'm sorry to chop and change, let's just get back

18 to the doctors again. Are you saying, from what you saw, that the doctors

19 were primarily dispensing tranquilizers and sleeping pills?

20 A. That's right.

21 Q. Thank you. Approximately when were you taken from the high school

22 gym to Zasavica?

23 A. I was taken away in mid-August.

24 Q. And what was the ethnic background of people who were, at that

25 stage, living in Zasavica?

1 A. Of Croatian ethnicity.

2 Q. Now Zasavica had always been a Croatian village, had it not?

3 A. Yes, that's right.

4 Q. But in addition to the people who normally lived there, were there

5 other Croats such as yourself also taken there?

6 A. I don't know that.

7 Q. Did you see guards at the entrance to the village?

8 A. No, I didn't see them.

9 Q. So you were free to move around if you wanted to take a walk into

10 Bosanski Samac, you could have done so?

11 A. I could, but I didn't want to move away from there because the job

12 demanded for me to stay there.

13 Q. Why didn't you go back to your apartment, go and live there, go

14 and live in Bosanski Samac in your apartment?

15 A. When I came back from the exchange, then I came back to the

16 apartment and continued to live there.

17 Q. Yes. Just one more question before the break, if I may, but I'm

18 not asking about when you came back from the exchange, I'm asking when you

19 were first taken to Zasavica from the high school gym. On that occasion,

20 on that occasion, why didn't you just say well, look, why didn't you just

21 walk back to your apartment in Bosanski Samac if you were free to do so?

22 A. I couldn't go back to the apartment.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, perhaps I should look at

24 this after the break. It's now 3.45.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: We'll take our break and continue at 1615 hours.

1 --- Break taken at 3.45 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Mr. Borbeli, we were talking -- I was asking you before the break

6 about Zasavica. Now, your evidence is that you were taken from the high

7 school gym to Zasavica, you volunteered to go there and you worked there

8 for some 17 days before being taken to the exchange. What I want to know

9 is this: Is there any reason why you didn't leave Zasavica in that 17

10 days and go back to your apartment, perhaps, to check out and see how it

11 was, what condition it was in, something like that?

12 A. I could not go to the apartment. I could not go any further than

13 the place where I was.

14 Q. Yes, that's exactly what I want to know. In effect, Zasavica was

15 a place where you were allowed to wander about the village but you were

16 restricted in the sense that you couldn't actually leave the --

17 A. Yes. Yes. Yes. Could you fix this so that it's louder?

18 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness asked for the volume to

19 be turned up a bit in his headphones because he's a bit hard of hearing.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm sure the usher will help.

21 MR. DI FAZIO:

22 Q. Can you hear me now?

23 A. I can.

24 Q. Let me just repeat the question that I wanted to ask you because

25 we have to make sure it's clear in this transcript that we're writing

1 here.

2 Tell me if this is correct: You were free to wander about

3 Zasavica but you weren't actually free to leave the village.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And who would prevent you from leaving the village?

6 A. The authorities.

7 Q. Okay. And were you ever told, ever given any reason why you and

8 the other Croats in Zasavica weren't free to leave the town, the little

9 village?

10 A. It was never said.

11 Q. All right. As far as the exchange is concerned, you had never

12 asked to be exchanged; that's correct, isn't it?

13 A. I did not ask, but I did await the exchange.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours just give me a moment to confer

15 with my case manager, please?

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

17 [Prosecution and case manager confer]

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

19 Q. And when you got to the exchange, the only people that you spoke

20 to about whether or not you would be exchanged were the International Red

21 Cross and Mr. Tadic.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, you'd known Mr. Tadic for some 30 years and he was your

24 friend?

25 A. Well, good acquaintances up to 30 years, for about 30 years.

1 Q. Okay. And he basically told you that you didn't have to be

2 exchanged if you didn't want to and that you could go back to your home?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And that's, in fact, what you did, you did go back to your home,

5 you went back to your apartment?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You didn't go back to --

8 A. I didn't.

9 Q. Just wait for me to finish so that you can hear clearly what I've

10 got to -- the question, okay? You, in fact, went back to your home and

11 started living there again, you did not go back to Zasavica or the high

12 school gym?

13 A. No.

14 Q. So Mr. Tadic was a man of considerable influence, wasn't he,

15 because he could make sure that you didn't have to go back to those

16 places?

17 MR. KRGOVIC: Objection, Your Honour, calling for speculation.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Very well.

19 Q. I'll ask you directly. Did Mr. Tadic do anything or say anything

20 that made it clear that you would not be obliged to go back to Zasavica or

21 the high school gym?

22 A. I asked that immediately at the exchange in Dragalic, if I were to

23 return and if I went back to school, or to Zasavica, then I would not go

24 back, then I would proceed further. He said to me, he said the following

25 to me, whoever wants to go to their own homes can.

1 Q. He made that clear to you? Perhaps I will make it clearer for

2 you. Did he make it -- was he speaking to you personally when he said to

3 you that you should go back to your home and not Zasavica or the high

4 school gym?

5 A. He was addressing us and when I heard that, I decided straight

6 away to go back.

7 Q. I see.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the witness be shown D3/3, please. The

9 exchange list that was shown to the witness previously.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Usher.

11 MR. DI FAZIO:

12 Q. All right. Now there's some names there of some people, let's

13 have a look at some of them, Dragan Delic, number 20; and Muhamed Bicic

14 number 21; and Dragan Lukac, number 25; and Franjo Barukcic, number 26;

15 did Mr. Tadic tell them that they were free to go back to their homes if

16 they wanted?

17 A. As far as I know, this group where I was, by the bus, I mean these

18 people who were there, they knew. But some got out and went immediately

19 towards the exchange, I mean the place of the exchange.

20 Q. Yes. Now, all I want to know is this: Did Mr. Tadic make it

21 clear to those men whose names I've just read out, indeed to all of the

22 people who are on this list, that if they wanted to, they could just go

23 back to their homes, back to their homes in Bosanski Samac?

24 A. All of us had that knowledge that whoever wanted to return could,

25 and those who did not want to return, well --

1 Q. You told us that if you'd had to go back to the high school gym or

2 Zasavica, you would have kept on going; in other words, you would have

3 gone through the exchange and into -- crossed over, that's correct, isn't

4 it?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And that's because you - along with all of the other Croats who

7 were in the high school gym, and in Zasavica - didn't like being rounded

8 up and deprived of their freedom, would that be -- is that a fair

9 assessment?

10 A. Well, yes. Yes.

11 Q. Okay. Number 19 on the list, Janko [phoen] Jurgen. That was a

12 German fellow would that be right?

13 A. I don't know about this.

14 Q. Do you remember there being any Germans or foreigner?

15 A. Oh, yes. Yes. Yes, there was this German guy with us, yes.

16 Q. Do you know if anyone called for him to be exchanged? On the

17 other side?

18 A. I don't really understand this.

19 Q. Are you aware if anyone from the other side, from the Croatian

20 side, had called, had asked for him to be exchanged, just as you were

21 called by your sister and your nephew?

22 A. They were looking for me in Croatia, I mean my sister, but they

23 could never wait for the exchange for me to be there so the war was over,

24 and I found out about this only in 1996 on the 10th of May when I went to

25 Orasje to meet up.

1 Q. Thank you. Some of the men whose names are on the list that I

2 showed you, Dragan Lukac, Dragan Delic, Franjo Barukcic, and others, were

3 they showing signs of injury, having been beaten?

4 A. No, no. Well, Dragan did. I was in the hall with him before

5 entering the bus and he, himself, showed that he had no teeth and I was

6 surprised. Well, the others no, the others didn't have any injury.

7 Q. You mean Dragan Delic, don't you?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did the others, any of the men on the bus, show signs of having

10 lost a lot of weight?

11 A. Well, no, no.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you very much. No further questions.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Any re-examination, Mr. Krgovic.

14 MR. PANTELIC: I have a couple of questions, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Anything new from the cross-examination.

16 MR. PANTELIC: From the cross-examination.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, isn't this a job for the

19 counsel calling the witness to re-examine?

20 JUDGE MUMBA: That's why I was wondering because I thought

21 Mr. Krgovic is still going to re-examine.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: That's --

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Krgovic, are you going to reexamine?

24 MR. PANTELIC: Yes.

25 MR. KRGOVIC: Yes.

1 JUDGE MUMBA: You are, all right.

2 Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

3 MR. PANTELIC: My understanding last time Your Honour, is that if

4 the other counsels would like to have redirect it should be prior to the

5 Defence who called the witness.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: If the cross-examination raised something new which

7 was not raised in the examination-in-chief.

8 MR. PANTELIC: That's correct.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: That is why I asked you.

10 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, yes, that's my idea to clarify with the

11 witness.

12 Re-examined by Mr. Pantelic:

13 Q. Mr. Borbeli, I am Igor Pantelic, attorney at law --

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes I wanted to find out what was new which was

15 raised in cross-examination?

16 MR. PANTELIC: I'll explain that. The question posed to this

17 witness with regard to Zasavica and about the possible let's say

18 institution or persons who prevented people from Zasavica to go out

19 from -- it was just raised in cross-examination by my learned Di Fazio.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Two questions you say.

21 MR. PANTELIC: One question, maybe two to clarify.

22 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Borbeli. I'm Igor Pantelic, attorney at law

23 Defence counsel for Blagoje Simic.

24 A. Good afternoon.

25 Q. The Prosecutor asked you about the possibility of getting out of

1 Zasavica. You said then that the authorities did not allow that. Please

2 be so kind as to tell me whether some passes were needed in order to leave

3 Zasavica. Were you supposed to get a pass if you wanted to leave

4 Zasavica, if you remember, of course?

5 A. I had no need to get out, so I didn't ask for a pass. Actually,

6 people who needed to get something done went to town to Samac, they went,

7 and they came back.

8 Q. Did you talk to them? Did you hear who it was that gave these

9 passes, if they were supposed to have passes?

10 A. I didn't. I don't know about that.

11 Q. When you refer to the authorities, what is the authorities for

12 you, is it the police, is the police the authorities?

13 A. Well, yes.

14 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you. I have no more questions, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Krgovic.

16 Re-examined by Mr. Krgovic:

17 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Mr. Borbeli, I'm going to put a few questions to you in relation

19 to what you said to the Prosecutor in order to clarify certain matters.

20 If you remember, the Prosecutor asked you how you found out that nobody

21 had their telephones connected, you said that you found out because in

22 your building, all your neighbours irrespective of ethnic background did

23 not have operational telephones and now I'm asking you about your other

24 neighbours who did not live in the same building that you did, members of

25 all ethnic backgrounds, did you hear that their phones went dead at the

1 same time when yours did?

2 A. Yes, the same time, yes.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: Well Your Honours please, this is evidence that

4 should have been led in chief. The whole purpose, the whole purpose of

5 Mr. Krgovic's questioning was apparent, we all know why he's asking the

6 questions about the telephones. It's not clarifying anything that I

7 raised regarding the basis of knowledge. I asked him expressly, whether

8 it was based on his experience in that particular building he said yes.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Krgovic. Don't go outside the

10 cross-examination.

11 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor asked this witness on

12 the basis of what he knew that everybody's telephones went dead in town,

13 irrespective of ethnicity and the witness answered that this was due to

14 the fact that in his building, all the tenants irrespective of ethnicity

15 did not have any telephones working and now I'm asking him whether he had

16 any other information on the basis of which he replied to the Prosecutor.

17 Did he have any other source of information except for the information he

18 had in his very own apartment building. That is what I was after.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: You can go ahead.

20 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Since the witness already answered

21 this question, I'm going to move on to another topic.

22 Q. Mr. Borbeli, when the Prosecutor asked you about the reasons for

23 your detention, you said that it is politics that is to be blamed for

24 that. The Prosecutor asked you whether that was the policies pursued by

25 the newly-established authorities, tell me, did you refer by then to the

1 parties, that took over power in Samac after the multi-party

2 elections, that is to say, the HDZ, the SDA, and the SDS or were you

3 referring to some other authorities, who did you have in mind?

4 MR. DI FAZIO: The question is not clear to me.

5 A. I don't know this question either.

6 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] You mean you do not understand this

7 question?

8 A. I don't know what this question is.

9 Q. The Prosecutor asked you which politics you had in mind, you said

10 that politics led to your detention, remember that?

11 A. Yes, I remember.

12 Q. And then the Prosecutor asked you which politics you had in mind,

13 which policies, the policies of the newly established authorities?

14 A. The newly established authorities of the SDS, there was no other

15 authority.

16 Q. The Prosecutor asked you about detention in Crkvina and you said

17 that many people were there from Crkvina, I mean that there were many

18 people at the stadium in Crkvina. These people who came from Crkvina to

19 Samac together with you, were they the same people who had previously left

20 or were there people who were not brought to Samac at all but rather were

21 brought directly from the villages to Samac to the secondary school?

22 A. As for those who were with me in Crkvina, they were brought with

23 me and later on, people came from villages.

24 Q. Do you know that some people who were in Crkvina, women and

25 children, were released later, did you see them in Samac?

1 A. Only women were released as far as I know.

2 Q. Where were they released, were they allowed to go home?

3 A. Home.

4 Q. Did you see them in Samac later?

5 A. Well, I was still in detention. They were not in detention for a

6 long time, they were there for a very short while and then they were

7 released.

8 Q. Another thing I wanted to ask you, the Prosecutor asked you about

9 food. Tell me, until the Red Cross started giving you food, did you

10 personally get food from home, did any of your friends or relatives bring

11 you food?

12 A. My relative brought me food and that was almost enough for me

13 while I was at the school.

14 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you Your Honours, I have no

15 further questions.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much, Mr. Borbeli. We are finished

17 with the evidence required from you so you can leave the courtroom.

18 [The witness withdrew]

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before we call in a new

20 witness, if I may address the Chamber regarding protective measures but

21 before that, could we move to a private session in order for me to explain

22 the reasons why I am requesting such measures.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, let's move to the private session.

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12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

13 at 7.00 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

14 the 28th day of January, 2003, at 2.15 p.m.

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