1 Thursday, 13 February 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.25 p.m.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours, this is case number

7 IT-95-9-T, the Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Miroslav Tadic, and Simo

8 Zaric.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Mr. Lukic. We are continuing with your

10 witnesses.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, our next witness is

12 ready, his name is Dario Radic and I suggest that we call this witness and

13 my colleague Krgovic will be present at this examination-in-chief.

14 I will take this opportunity, Your Honours, just to tell you

15 something which may not be for the transcript but we, as Defence counsel,

16 would like to point out or rather commend a group of people who were

17 helping us with the depositions who -- before we mainly had objections to

18 the work of some services; however, the witness protection service has

19 been very helpful in preparing these depositions and they were done very

20 well and under extremely difficult weather conditions and their drivers

21 also did a good job so on behalf of all our colleagues we would like to

22 inform the Chamber, because thanks to them, these depositions have been

23 made in the best possible way. Thank you.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. I'm sure the Trial Chamber would like to

25 add its thanks to the Defence counsel and the other parties as well for

1 the good work that they did to support the work of the Tribunal.

2 MR. PANTELIC: Good afternoon, Your Honour. If I may, we have

3 some problems with our transcript on laptop computer, so if someone from

4 the technical unit can come in the meantime, I would appreciate it. Thank

5 you.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. That will be attended to. Can the

7 witness please make the solemn declaration.

8 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

9 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10 WITNESS: Dario Radic

11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Please sit down.

13 Yes, Mr. Krgovic.

14 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

15 Examined by Mr. Krgovic:

16 Q. Can you hear me?

17 A. Yes, I can.

18 Q. Sir, can you tell us your full name, please?

19 A. Dario Radic.

20 Q. Mr. Radic, when were you born?

21 A. On the 6th of October, in 1974.

22 Q. Mr. Radic, where were you born?

23 A. In Bosanski Samac.

24 Q. Mr. Radic, where are your parents from?

25 A. My father was born in Bosanski Samac and my mother was from --

1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises for not getting the

2 name of the place of birth.

3 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Mr. Radic, what is your nationality?

5 A. I'm a Croat.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Krgovic, the interpreters didn't get the name of

7 the place for the birth of the mother, I think, one of the particulars.

8 If you look at the transcript, it's not complete.

9 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Mr. Radic, can you tell us where your parents were born?

11 A. My father was born in Samac and mother in Gradacac.

12 Q. Mr. Radic, where were you born?

13 A. In Samac.

14 Q. Mr. Radic, let me just ask you, after you heard my question, can

15 you please make a pause a few seconds before you start your answer so that

16 the interpreters can do their job properly and avoid overlapping because

17 the two of us speak the same language and it is really necessary that

18 everything that we talk about is being translated so please wait for a

19 couple of seconds after I've finished my question and then start your

20 answer.

21 Mr. Radic, your parents, what is their ethnicity?

22 A. My parents are Croats.

23 Q. Mr. Radic, are you married?

24 A. No, I'm not.

25 Q. Can you tell us what education you have?

1 A. I completed mechanical secondary school for metal lathe worker.

2 Q. Mr. Radic, are you employed?

3 A. I work for the football club Borac from Samac. I work as a waiter

4 at the cafe there.

5 Q. Mr. Radic, did you complete military service?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. Which year did you start your military service and when did you

8 complete it?

9 A. I started my military service on the 4th of May, 1993 and I

10 returned from the army on the 6th of May, 1993. I completed my military

11 service in my units.

12 Q. Was that in Bosanski Samac?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Was that the army of Republika Srpska?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Tell us, Mr. Radic, did you have any rank in the army?

17 A. No, I didn't have any rank.

18 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Krgovic, just for the sake of

19 clarity, the Witness' answer on page 4, lines 11 and 12 don't strike me as

20 making sense in terms of the dates. He started -- he says, "I started my

21 military service on 4th of May, 1993 and I returned from the army on the

22 6th of May, 1993," two days. Maybe we could get that rectified.

23 MR. KRGOVIC: Yes, I will clarify.

24 Q. [Interpretation] Tell us, Mr. Radic, when did you leave the army?

25 A. I returned from the army in late 1994 so my military service

1 lasted about two years.

2 Q. When you mentioned these dates, 4th and 6th of May, 1993, can you

3 explain to the Chamber?

4 A. From the 4th of May -- on the 4th of May, I was sent to Bijeljina

5 to serve in the army. Then, they accepted me there, gave me an

6 assignment, and on the 4th and the 5th, we had an introductory or basic

7 training, turn to the left, turn to the right, et cetera, and then in the

8 evening of the 5th of May, a commander, a squad commander called me and --

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Krgovic, that isn't necessary.

10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

11 Q. So after the 5th of May, you returned to Bosanski Samac and you

12 continued there.

13 Mr. Radic, tell us where do you live in Bosanski Samac?

14 A. Nikola Pasicic Street number 6.

15 Q. With whom did you used to live before the war, before the 16th and

16 the 17th of April, 1992?

17 A. I lived with my father and mother.

18 Q. Do you have any other relatives -- in Bosanski Samac before April

19 1992, did you have any other relatives?

20 A. I have three aunts and I had an uncle.

21 Q. They all used to live in Bosanski Samac?

22 A. Yes, they did.

23 Q. Mr. Radic, tell me, are you a member of any party? Repeated

24 question: Were you a member of any party?

25 A. No, I wasn't.

1 Q. How about your father?

2 A. My father was, before the war, in the communist party.

3 Q. When multiparty elections were held and when national-based

4 parties were formed, did your father join any of those new parties?

5 A. No, he didn't.

6 Q. How about you?

7 A. Neither did I.

8 Q. Tell me, in the period before the 16th and 17th of April, 1992,

9 had you noticed anything unusual in Bosanski Samac, were there any changes

10 as compared to your life before that time?

11 A. The situation was tense and on the day, there were separations,

12 Serbs on the one side, Muslims on the other, and the Croats.

13 Q. Were there any cooling of relations between people of different

14 ethnicity?

15 A. At the time, before that particular day came, I used to socialise

16 with the Serbs and the Muslims and Croats. That was before this day came,

17 we all spent time together and maintained good relations.

18 Q. Mr. Radic, do you know, did the people immediately before the 16th

19 and 17th of April, did they flee Samac, did they put their families away,

20 was there any mention of any pending attack?

21 A. I didn't believe that myself, but there were families who went to

22 Serbia or to Croatia if they had any place to take their families to.

23 Q. Mr. Radic, can you tell us, where were you on the night between

24 the 16th and the 17th of April, 1992?

25 A. On that night between the 16th and the 17th, or rather in the

1 evening, I was in a cafe with a couple of friends, we had a few drinks,

2 and a friend of mine, Jasmin Peles, we set off to have some good time

3 after that.

4 Q. Tell us, Mr. Radic, what ethnicity is Mr. Jasmin Peles?

5 A. He was a Muslim.

6 Q. Can you tell us where you headed?

7 A. I headed to the memorial centre where there was a night club there

8 and he went home.

9 Q. What time was that?

10 A. That was about 2.00 or half past 2.00.

11 Q. You mean a.m.?

12 A. Yes, in the night.

13 Q. Tell us, Mr. Radic, which route you had to take in order to reach

14 the memorial centre?

15 A. We had to go down the main street and on that street, there was a

16 SUP building.

17 Q. You mean the police building?

18 A. Yes, the police.

19 Q. Did you notice anything unusual?

20 A. When we set off. We didn't notice anything, but when we passed

21 some 50 metres or came at some 50 metres from the SUP building, there were

22 no lights on and I felt that something was wrong. Then, with a friend of

23 mine, I proceeded but after some 10 metres, special policemen burst out in

24 camouflage uniforms with their caps on their heads and with their faces

25 painted. They told us to raise our hands in the air. They asked us if we

1 were armed. We didn't have any weapons. Whatever we had in our pockets,

2 a certain amount of money, it was taken away from us, and then they took

3 us inside the SUP building.

4 Q. Tell us, Mr. Radic, which accent did those people speak in?

5 A. They spoke in the Serbian accent.

6 Q. When they stopped you, were they armed?

7 A. Yes, they were.

8 Q. Did they ask you about your ethnicity?

9 A. When we entered the SUP building, they asked me that.

10 Q. What was your answer?

11 A. I told them that I was a Croat and my friend said that he was a

12 Muslim.

13 Q. What happened next, were you arrested?

14 A. They arrested us and took us -- there were two cells in the SUP

15 and they locked us there.

16 Q. Tell us, Mr. Radic, where were those cells, on the ground floor or

17 on the upper floor?

18 A. The cells were on the ground floor.

19 Q. Tell us, Mr. Radic, when you were brought in, were there any other

20 individuals in the cells?

21 A. There were some five or six policemen who were there on duty in

22 their uniforms and other people who went to work or something like that,

23 they were all locked up.

24 Q. They were all locked?

25 A. Yes, they were.

1 Q. Tell us, Mr. Radic, during that time, those days, were you

2 questioned or interrogated by anyone?

3 A. On the Friday, around 1.00 or 2.00 p.m., was called to come to the

4 upper floor in the SUP for -- to be questioned.

5 Q. You say Friday?

6 A. Yes, I was detained on the night between Thursday and Friday.

7 Q. So that would be the 17th of April?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Tell me, Mr. Radic, where were you taken to the upper floor, to an

10 office?

11 A. Yes, to an office. I was called to come to an office.

12 Q. Tell me, who questioned you?

13 A. I was questioned by the Serbs, these special policemen.

14 Q. When you say Serbs, you mean people from Serbia?

15 A. Yes, special policemen.

16 Q. Those were not the Serbs from Samac, the people who questioned

17 you?

18 A. No, those were not people were Samac.

19 Q. How long did the questioning last?

20 A. I was questioned between 15 and 20 minutes.

21 Q. What did they ask you?

22 A. They asked me what my ethnicity is.

23 Q. And what did you answer?

24 A. That I am a Croat. They asked me if I had weapons. I said that I

25 didn't. If I was in any party, I responded that I wasn't. And then they

1 asked me about my father, whether he was in any party, and if he had

2 weapons. He didn't have any weapons either, nor was he a member of any

3 party.

4 Q. Mr. Radic, did they beat you during that interrogation?

5 A. When I was interrogated, I wasn't beaten.

6 Q. Mr. Radic, could you please tell us where did they return you

7 after the interrogation?

8 A. After the interrogation, they took me back to the cell.

9 Q. How much time did you spend at the SUP?

10 A. I spent the time there from Thursday and Friday, three days.

11 Q. When you were there, did you see anybody beating the detainees?

12 A. Could you please repeat your question?

13 Q. While you were at the SUP, in this cell on the ground floor, did

14 anybody come in to beat you or the other inmates?

15 A. I was involved with my own misfortune that night, Friday night, a

16 member of the special forces came in, he -- his nickname was Lugar, he

17 took me out into the corridor and hit me on my back with a baton six or

18 seven times.

19 Q. Mr. Radic, during the time that you were at the SUP, did you

20 receive any food?

21 A. We didn't receive any food, but some of those members of the

22 special forces would hide tins of food and chocolate and bread for us so

23 that those who were the most dangerous amongst them wouldn't see that we

24 were eating.

25 Q. Were you able to go to the toilet?

1 A. Yes, we were able to go, but they escorted us.

2 Q. Mr. Radic, while you were at the SUP, were you taken out anywhere

3 for lunch or for dinner?

4 A. On Saturday, around 7.00 or 8.00 in the evening, a person called

5 Lazo Trojan came, we were locked up in our cells, he unlocked the cells,

6 brought a truck, we went into the truck and he took us to dinner at Utva.

7 And when we finished our dinner, he brought us back.

8 Q. When you say Utva, is that a company?

9 A. Yes, it's a company.

10 Q. Mr. Radic, were you transferred to another place at some point

11 from the SUP?

12 A. When we were brought back from that dinner in Utva, they sent us

13 to the TO across the street from the SUP, about 20 or 30 of us.

14 Q. Could you please tell us, across the street were you put up in a

15 building or in some kind of a garage or something?

16 A. We were put in a garage but it was a little bigger like a room,

17 but a little bit bigger than a room.

18 Q. How many people were there inside?

19 A. When I was there, there were about 20 or 30 of us but during the

20 night, there were more of us.

21 Q. Did you recognise any of the people who were there at the TO, did

22 you know any of them?

23 A. Ibela was with me, Grga and two of the Bicici brothers who had a

24 pizzeria.

25 Q. You mean Bicic brothers?

1 A. Yes, Bicic.

2 Q. Do you know what the last name is of this Grga, maybe?

3 A. I think his last name is Zubak.

4 Q. Was he a police officer before the war?

5 A. Yes, that's what he was before the war.

6 Q. Mr. Radic, could you please tell us whether any of those people

7 were beaten up when you saw them?

8 A. When I was there, one of the two brothers had blood here on his

9 head, his head was bloodied.

10 Q. And when you were at the TO, did anybody come inside to beat these

11 men?

12 A. When I was at the TO, nobody hit us.

13 Q. Mr. Radic, could you please tell us when were you released from

14 the TO?

15 A. When was I --

16 Q. When were you freed from the TO?

17 A. I was released on Sunday around 10.00 or 11.00.

18 Q. Mr. Radic, what happened with your friend who was arrested

19 together with you?

20 A. My friend was released the day before.

21 Q. Mr. Radic, who told you that you were free to go?

22 A. A member of the special forces came, took me to the SUP, and told

23 me that I was free to go and that I could go home.

24 Q. Mr. Radic, and where did you go after that?

25 A. I went to a building where my mother and father were in the

1 cellar.

2 Q. And why were they in the basement?

3 A. They were in the basement because of the shelling, because shells

4 kept falling every little while.

5 Q. And during those few days after you were released from the SUP,

6 how frequent was the shelling?

7 A. During those couple of days after my release, in the beginning,

8 for a couple of days, there wasn't any shelling and then there was

9 sporadic shelling for two days and then one day and so on.

10 Q. Mr. Radic, during those initial days, were people leaving Samac,

11 were there any people that you noticed -- that you knew that you noticed

12 were gone?

13 A. That day when I came and when I was with my parents, as the days

14 went by, families that had somewhere to go left.

15 Q. Mr. Radic, those days after your release, did you notice that

16 there were some people wearing white ribbons?

17 A. In this building where I was, there were a lot of fighters who

18 were going to the front, to the line, and they had those white bands tied

19 round here.

20 Q. Were these soldiers or civilians?

21 A. Those were -- they were soldiers.

22 MR. RE: The witness said, "around here," Your Honour. Perhaps

23 that could be clarified. He didn't motion anywhere on his body.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Mr. Krgovic.

25 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. Mr. Radic, could you please point to the place where these white

2 bands were worn, could you indicate with your hand?

3 A. The white bands were worn here in that thing on the shirt or the

4 jacket.

5 Q. Epaulet?

6 A. That's where they were tied here on the side.

7 Q. For the record, the Witness indicated his right shoulder, the top

8 of the right shoulder as the place where those white ribbons were

9 attached.

10 Mr. Radic, do you remember the width and the length of those

11 bands?

12 A. I think that they were not really so big, they were about this

13 size, they reached more or less down to here.

14 Q. So they hung a little bit below the shoulder and it was about 10

15 or 15 centimetres in length?

16 A. Yes, that's right.

17 Q. Mr. Radic, could you please tell us if you saw any civilians

18 wearing those white bands?

19 A. No, I didn't see any civilians wearing them.

20 Q. Did you wear such a band?

21 A. No, I did not.

22 Q. And your parents?

23 A. No, they didn't.

24 Q. Mr. Radic, did you maybe hear of any order that Muslims and Croats

25 had to wear white ribbons when they went out into the street?

1 A. There were a lot of Muslims and Croats with me and I didn't hear

2 anyone say that they had to wear white ribbons.

3 Q. Mr. Radic, could you please tell us whether there was a shortage

4 of bread and milk in that period and did anybody organise for bread and

5 milk to be delivered to Samac citizens?

6 A. In front of the building, immediately in front of the building

7 where we were, milk was distributed and bread to all ethnicities.

8 Q. Did you and your family receive those supplies?

9 A. Yes, we did.

10 Q. Mr. Radic, could you please tell us how long did this last?

11 A. This lasted about 10 or 15 days.

12 Q. And after that, did the shops start to work normally again?

13 A. The bakeries started to operate and there was bread to be bought

14 in shops.

15 Q. Mr. Radic, what was the situation regarding the electricity and

16 water in Bosanski Samac during those days?

17 A. The electricity was cut right at the beginning. There was water,

18 there was an artesian well about 100 or 150 metres from our building so

19 when there was no water we could go to there to that well and get some.

20 Q. Mr. Radic, could you please tell us whether the phones were

21 working in Samac during those days during those few days when the war

22 began?

23 A. The telephone worked for only one day. After that, it was all

24 disconnected except for the post office and such places.

25 Q. Were your telephones in your house also cut off?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And what was the situation with your friends, your acquaintances,

3 Serbs, Croats, Muslims?

4 A. Everybody's phones were cut off regardless of the -- their

5 ethnicity.

6 Q. And later, during the war, was the telephone service restored?

7 A. Yes, it was.

8 MR. RE: I seek some clarification at this point, Your Honour.

9 The Witness's evidence so far has been that he joined the VRS on the 4th

10 of May, 1993. I asked my learned friend, Mr. Krgovic, to clarify whether

11 this evidence is confined to the period between 16th of April, 1992 and

12 the 4th of May or some other period.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Isn't that -- I thought it is in 1992.

14 MR. RE: I'm sorry, 1992.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: From about 16th, 17th April, 1992.

16 MR. RE: Yes.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: And the following days.

18 MR. RE: Right.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: I thought this is the period the witness was

20 covering, from the time that he was arrested, detained, then released and

21 that period, the rest of 1992.

22 MR. RE: I think it was my confusion, I'm sorry.

23 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I asked the witness about the first

24 days after the outbreak of the conflict or the situation with the

25 electricity.

1 Q. So you were describing the days in April and May 1992; right?

2 A. Yes, that's right.

3 Q. Tell me, Mr. Radic, later during the war while you were in

4 Bosanski Samac and later towards the end of the war was the telephone

5 service restored?

6 A. Yes, it was. We submitted an application to the post office for a

7 telephone line to be installed, not only myself but a sufficient number of

8 families did that and our telephones were connected.

9 Q. Can you tell us the year, you don't have to say the month

10 precisely. When was that?

11 A. I believe that it was in 1993, I think beginning of 1993.

12 Q. Tell me, Mr. Radic, while you were under arrest, did your family

13 live all the time in their flat?

14 A. When I came out of the prison, for a couple of -- for a few

15 months, we lived in that cellar and after that, we went to our flat.

16 Q. You spent the time in the cellar because of the shelling, nobody

17 forced you out of your flat?

18 A. No, nobody forced us. While the shells were falling, my father

19 and mother went to their neighbours' place and I went to Miroslav Tadic's.

20 Q. Was your house close to the front line or to the embankment?

21 A. Well, sort of, perhaps 1 kilometre away.

22 Q. Was your house near the house of Miroslav Tadic?

23 A. Yes, it was.

24 Q. Were you in the cellar in the shelter of Miroslav Tadic's house?

25 A. We were in the cafe and in the event of any strong attack, we were

1 going to go down into the cellar.

2 Q. Tell us, Mr. Radic, during 1992, was your father ever arrested?

3 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Krgovic, but before the Witness

4 answers that question, can we clarify the name of the cafe? I can make a

5 presumption that I already know what it is, but for the sake of the

6 record, it would be good to have it there.

7 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Tell us, Mr. Radic, what was the name of Miroslav Tadic's cafe

9 where you used to go?

10 A. It was cafe bar AS.

11 Q. Mr. Radic, tell us, was your father arrested during the year of

12 1992?

13 A. My father was arrested on the 1st of June.

14 Q. Which year?

15 A. 1992 when the war broke out. We were together in this cellar, two

16 policemen came, asked me what my name was, they asked the same question of

17 my father, and they took him away but they didn't take me.

18 Q. Mr. Radic, did you find out where your father was eventually

19 taken?

20 A. In this building across the road, there was a police commander,

21 his name was Savo Cancarevic, and my mother and I went early in the

22 morning, it was about 6.00 or 6.30 and we waited for him. My mother asked

23 him what happened and how he was arrested. He replied that they just

24 wanted to question him and if he had been a member of any party and if he

25 didn't have any weapons, that he would be released. He was taken to a

1 secondary school building.

2 Q. When did you find out that he had been taken to the secondary

3 school building?

4 A. We found out immediately, a couple of hours after he had been

5 taken away. We saw a policeman who was there and he told us that my

6 father was in the school building.

7 Q. Tell me, Mr. Radic, was there any possibility to -- for you to

8 take some food to your father or anything like that?

9 A. It all depended on who was on guard, but on several occasions, we

10 managed to bring food to him.

11 Q. Could you see your father or your mother while he was in the

12 school building?

13 A. No, we didn't. No, we couldn't. My mother went there but she was

14 not able to see him.

15 Q. While your father was in the secondary school building, did he

16 tell you later if he had been beaten or maltreated there?

17 A. Nobody touched my father in the school building, nor did he have

18 any problems.

19 Q. Tell me, Mr. Radic, how much time did your father spend in the

20 school building?

21 A. In the mid-summer, he reported to Zasavica as a butcher and he was

22 taken there and he and a couple of his friends were butchers there.

23 Q. How long did your father stay in Zasavica, can you remember that?

24 A. Altogether, in the school and in Zasavica, between seven and eight

25 months.

1 Q. Mr. Radic, did you have any opportunity to visit your father in

2 Zasavica, or your mother, for that matter?

3 A. My mother went there several times, and I went two or three times.

4 Q. How did you go there, did you walk to Zasavica?

5 A. We bicycled there.

6 Q. Mr. Radic, could you enter Zasavica freely or was there any

7 checkpoint at the entry to Zasavica?

8 A. Immediately at the entrance point, there was the police there and

9 some of them would let you go through, some of them wouldn't, depended on

10 their mood. But in most cases, they let us go through.

11 Q. When you went there, did you see where your father was kept?

12 A. He and his friend were in a house, it was a furnished house, it

13 was a neat house and there were no problems.

14 Q. Was there water in Zasavica at the time?

15 A. Yes, there was. They had a pump and that's where they got the

16 water from.

17 Q. Mr. Radic, was Zasavica surrounded by any kind of barbed wire or

18 was there free access to it?

19 A. No, there was just this checkpoint, nothing else.

20 Q. Were there the police inside the village or the soldiers, did you

21 notice anything like that?

22 A. There were no police or army inside the village. Only when they

23 needed something like meat or something then they would come.

24 Q. During the war, was Zasavica ever shelled?

25 A. No, it wasn't.

1 Q. Mr. Radic, was it possible for your father to send you some meat

2 from Zasavica?

3 A. Yes, it was. We had some friends there and they brought us meat

4 in cars.

5 Q. Tell me, Mr. Radic, when were you served the recruitment notice?

6 A. That was in 1993 in January.

7 Q. Did you -- were you subjected to any evaluation of your fitness?

8 A. I went to the hospital for a medical check-up for my blood test,

9 for them to evaluate whether I was fit for military service and there were

10 many soldiers there of my age who were eligible for recruitment.

11 Q. Was that the usual procedure?

12 A. Yes, it was.

13 Q. While you were in Samac and your father was detained, did you or

14 your mother have work obligation?

15 A. No, neither my mother nor I had work obligation. I received the

16 summons for recruitment and nobody approached my mother.

17 Q. Tell me, Mr. Radic, did any member of your family, your uncle, for

18 example, have work obligation?

19 A. My uncle was also a butcher by profession, and he was in charge of

20 doing this job as a butcher for a certain number of companies.

21 Q. He was never taken in or questioned?

22 A. No, he wasn't.

23 Q. When I asked you about the military service, was that the army of

24 Republika Srpska?

25 A. Yes, the army of Republika Srpska.

1 Q. Mr. Radic, did your father come home sometime in January 1993?

2 A. My father returned home on the 29th of January.

3 Q. Did your father tell you that something preceded his release, was

4 he asked to declare whether he wanted to be exchanged?

5 A. His brother, that means my uncle, and his son applied and my

6 father also applied, because my uncle also had two daughters and a wife

7 and they were asking for them as well.

8 MR. LAZAREVIC: Just one second, I believe that I heard the

9 Witness say something slightly different than what I see here in the

10 transcript on page 22, line 13. He never actually said that his father

11 applied for exchanges. What I heard that witness said, but maybe my

12 colleague would clarify is that those -- his brother put his name on the

13 list for exchanges.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, perhaps that can be clarified.

15 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mr. Radic, we'll go question by question. When you said that your

17 uncle and his son wanted to be exchanged and that he put his name on the

18 list, and that he added your father's name on the list, was that right?

19 A. Yes, that's right.

20 Q. On the other side, --

21 A. On the other side my uncle wife and two daughters were also asked

22 for.

23 Q. Where were they?

24 A. They were in Croatia.

25 Q. Very well. And what did your father say? Where did he go for the

1 exchange?

2 A. They went to the line of separation, that's where the SFOR was,

3 the Russian army, they were there at the line of separation. They asked

4 my father, "Are you going to the other side or are you returning?" My

5 father said that he was returning.

6 Q. And after that, your father returned home?

7 A. Yes, that's right.

8 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness now be shown

9 document D35/3 ter, please.

10 Q. Sir, could you please look at this document? Mr. Radic, please

11 take your time, look at the document. Could you please tell me whether on

12 the first page, you see your father's name?

13 A. Number 18.

14 Q. Can you please read that out?

15 A. Number 18, Radic, son of Mijo, Mije Radic called Brada.

16 Q. Yes, that's right. And what does it say next to it?

17 A. Did not decide, he returned -- did not decide, he returned.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction. The name of the person

19 under 18 is Mijo Radic, aka Brada

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, excuse me. On page 23,

21 line 24 it states; "Radic, son of Mijo," but the witness actually said

22 "Mijo Radic, called Brada," and that's what it says in the official

23 translation in the English version and I would just like to correct that.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. It can be corrected.

25 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. Could you please tell me, Mr. Radic, could you please look at this

2 list very carefully on page 2 and tell me whether any of the people that

3 you know from Samac came back together with your father from the exchange

4 and did not agree to be exchanged?

5 A. Number 56, Hasan Pistoljevic, he came back with my father.

6 Q. And these other people next to their name -- where there is a mark

7 next to their name, number 53, Blaskic?

8 A. I don't know that person. Perhaps I know him but ...

9 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please take back the

10 document, we won't be needing it anymore.

11 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me. I have one small question for the

12 witness. You said that you were served your mobilisation, your

13 recruitment notice in January 1993. Can you recall whether you received

14 that recruitment notice before or after 29th of January, 1993, which is

15 the date on the document, the exhibit of exchange that we've just looked

16 at, if you could, thank you.

17 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Mr. Radic, you heard Her Honour Judge Williams' question, did you

19 receive this call-up before or after?

20 A. I received two envelopes and there it said that it was -- it was

21 the call-up papers.

22 Q. Is this different from the regular call-up in order to serve your

23 regular military term?

24 A. First you need to get your recruitment papers and then you leave

25 that with the persons who are in charge of that, and then you receive

1 separately the actual call-up papers.

2 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I think my question was really specifically as to

3 the date. Do you recall whether you received these -- either one of these

4 two envelopes before your father went to the separation line on 29th of

5 January, 1993?

6 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Did you receive this call-up document before your father came home

8 or after, if you remember the date? If not, just say so?

9 A. I received the recruitment document before and I went for the

10 recruitment procedure and then in the meantime, my father returned.

11 Q. And then from the recruitment procedure, you came home; is that

12 right?

13 A. Yes, that's right, I came home. I didn't have any problems.

14 Q. And when did you receive your documents, the call-up to go into

15 the army, when did you go to serve in the army?

16 A. I received my army call-up documents, I think, in April.

17 Q. Of which year?

18 A. 1993.

19 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you very much.

20 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. Radic, could you please tell me, where did your uncle apply

22 for the exchange when he went; do you remember?

23 A. They went to the Red Cross. That's where you would apply for an

24 exchange.

25 Q. And did your uncle leave Samac then once your father returned?

1 A. Yes, he did. He went with his son to the other side.

2 Q. Mr. Radic, when your father came back, was he engaged on any work

3 duty anywhere?

4 A. After a couple of days, there was a construction company, my

5 father is a painter by profession, and that was his work duty. If

6 anything needed to be painted, and so on.

7 Q. So let's clarify, he worked as a butcher. Was your father able to

8 work in the butcher's trade as well as in the house painter's trade?

9 Could you please explain that a little bit because it's a little

10 confusing?

11 A. My father, by profession, is a painter, house painter. As a young

12 boy or a young man he worked with another man and he worked on

13 slaughtering sheep and so on so he knows how to do that job as well.

14 Q. And when your father worked in this construction firm, that was

15 his work duty; is that right?

16 A. Yes, that's right.

17 Q. Mr. Radic, could you please tell me, during that time while he was

18 working, did your father receive any salary, if you remember?

19 A. My old man or my father did not receive any money but he did

20 receive some assistance.

21 Q. Was this assistance in food?

22 A. Yes, that's right. Yes, flour, sugar, oil and so on.

23 Q. And could you please tell me, Mr. Radic, did your father work

24 privately as a painter after his work duty, did he have the opportunity to

25 do that?

1 A. My old man did have the opportunity, but this man who would be

2 requiring his services would ask him to go to his company and to ask first

3 whether he could paint his apartment or so on.

4 Q. Could you please tell me, Mr. Radic, before you went to serve in

5 the military, did you -- were you engaged in any work duty?

6 A. No, I wasn't engaged in any work duty, no.

7 Q. Mr. Radic, your uncle, when he applied for the exchange, did he

8 have to give any money for the exchange?

9 A. My uncle did not give any money for the exchange.

10 Q. Mr. Radic, could you please tell me whether your father or

11 yourself or your family, did you offer to anyone or give money to anyone

12 so that your father could go to the exchange?

13 A. No, we didn't offer money to anybody, nor did anybody ask for

14 that.

15 Q. Did you hear in Bosanski Samac at that time before your father

16 left for the exchange and your uncle that money should be given to

17 somebody for them to be placed on the list? And was the name of Miroslav

18 Tadic mentioned in that context?

19 A. We were there at the time, Miroslav Tadic was in charge of

20 exchanges, and he did not take money from anyone for the exchanges neither

21 did anybody offer him money and he didn't ask for money either.

22 Q. But did you hear any stories about that?

23 A. Could you please put that question again?

24 Q. Well, did you hear it mentioned or stories being told about him

25 being offered or asking for money for exchanges?

1 A. Me and my family did not hear anything about that.

2 Q. Mr. Radic, could you please tell me whether people, during that

3 time before you went to serve in the military, were people leaving Samac?

4 A. Yes. There were a couple of people who made personal

5 identification cards for money. I heard about that.

6 Q. And where were these people leaving, in which direction, did they

7 go to Serbia or --

8 A. Yes, they all went through Serbia.

9 Q. Did you hear whether this was something, this service was

10 something that had to be paid, the service of providing these ID cards?

11 A. What I heard was that in a few instances, yes, this was paid for.

12 Q. And where did these people go after they went to Serbia, did they

13 go to third countries or did they stay there?

14 A. Some people stayed in Serbia, some people went abroad, it depends

15 on where they were able to go.

16 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think now is a good

17 time for a break.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: How much time do you need, Mr. Krgovic?

19 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Less than an hour.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: We'll take our break and resume at 1615 hours.

21 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

22 --- On resuming at 4.16 p.m.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you continue, Mr. Krgovic.

24 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Mr. Radic, before the break, we were discussing the work duty and

1 your father's stay in Zasavica so I just want to go back to Zasavica.

2 Could you please tell me before the war, did you used to go to Zasavica?

3 A. Yes, I did. I went there for some matches when they were being

4 held in Zasavica.

5 Q. Could you please tell me what was the ethnicity of the population

6 of that village?

7 A. The population was mainly Croats.

8 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to ask

9 the technical booth to play a short recording, a short video of a few

10 minutes so that the Trial Chamber could see Zasavica. There is no sound,

11 it's just footage of the actual village. From the outside you can see the

12 entrance to Zasavica and several houses. The witness would identify it as

13 the village Zasavica and we would like to submit that as an exhibit. So

14 could the technical booth please play this film.

15 [Videotape played]

16 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Are you familiar with this turning?

18 A. This is the road to Zasavica and the road straight was the road to

19 Modrica.

20 Q. Could you please tell us where this checkpoint with the police was

21 before this bridge or after?

22 A. I think it was before the bridge at the very entrance and there

23 was some houses there so it was right next to the first house.

24 Q. Do you recognise these houses?

25 A. Yes, this is Zasavica. On the left side, perhaps the sixth or the

1 seventh house in line was my father's house.

2 Q. Here on the left side?

3 A. Yes, that's right. I don't know the house exactly but roughly.

4 Q. And what did Zasavica look like during the war? Were there any

5 damaged houses there?

6 A. I heard when my old man was there that there were not so many

7 damaged houses.

8 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the technical booth stop now

9 with this footage. I think that we've seen enough.

10 Your Honours, could this document now be given a number, please,

11 if there is no objection from the other side.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution?

13 MR. RE: No, there's no objection but could the record reflect

14 that the date on the tape we've just seen was the 3rd of October, 2002.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, that's clearly visible.

16 Yes, can I have the number, please.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the next number for this exhibit is

18 D142/3.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

20 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. Radic, what you just saw, this footage, was Zasavica look like

22 the same at the time in 1992 when you went to visit your father?

23 A. Ninety-five per cent it looked the same.

24 Q. Tell me, Mr. Radic, you mentioned during your previous testimony

25 that sometime in May 1993, you went to military service. Where did you

1 spend most of the time? I would like to know particularly about the

2 period before the end of December 1993?

3 A. I returned on the 6th of May from Bijeljina, I came to the command

4 post. For a certain period of time, I was at the border between Croatia

5 and Bosnia and then I was transferred for about a month or two at the

6 command post. After that, I was transferred to the line, to the front

7 line Grebnice and that is where I spent the whole time until the war

8 ended.

9 Q. Tell me, Mr. Radic, while you were in the military, where did you

10 spend most of your breaks? Did you spend the nights at home?

11 A. Yes, I spent the time at my parents' and during my free time, I

12 went to Miroslav Tadic's cafe, whenever I had free time.

13 Q. Let us go back briefly to 1992 because I omitted to ask you

14 something. Did you, perhaps, in the course of 1992 hear of an order for

15 all the Croats to be arrested and to be placed on vital features both in

16 the town and in the villages?

17 A. I have never heard of such -- I never heard of such an order,

18 including my whole family.

19 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Could you please show the document

20 P71 ter to the witness, please.

21 Q. Mr. Radic, tell me, have you ever seen this document before?

22 A. No. This is the first time that I see it and I've never heard of

23 such a thing.

24 Q. Mr. Radic, on the 15th or 16th of May, were you in Bosanski Samac,

25 you and your family?

1 A. Yes, we were.

2 Q. Did any member of your family -- was any member of your family,

3 your uncle or any of your relatives arrested at the time?

4 A. No.

5 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Usher. I don't need

6 this document anymore.

7 Q. Mr. Radic, during those days that you were in Bosanski Samac

8 before your military service, could you listen to Radio Samac?

9 A. Yes, whenever there was electricity, we did listen to the radio.

10 Q. Was it on the air regularly?

11 A. Yes, regularly but only when we had electricity and then we

12 listened to it.

13 Q. What was the kind of programme broadcast? Have you ever heard a

14 statement or did you hear at any time that Simo Zaric or -- spoke on the

15 radio?

16 A. No, there were only comments on the events on the lines and things

17 like that, but Simo Zaric and Blagoje Simic I've never heard speaking on

18 the radio.

19 Q. Did you ever hear Simo Zaric insulting Croats and Muslims over the

20 radio, that he used abusive language?

21 A. Simo Zaric never insulted anyone, instead, he helped a lot, both

22 to the Croats and the Muslims and that was not only that I said, many

23 people have said that as well.

24 Q. Mr. Radic, tell us, how long have you known Miroslav Tadic?

25 A. I have known Miroslav Tadic some -- for some 15 or 16 years.

1 Q. Before the war, did you frequent the AS cafe?

2 A. Yes, because I was a younger boy and I did go there.

3 Q. Tell us, Mr. Radic, in those days, did you ever heard of the

4 existence of a so-called 4th Detachment?

5 A. I heard there were people from all three ethnicities, Croats,

6 Muslims and Serbs in that detachment.

7 Q. Were you a member of the 4th Detachment?

8 A. No, I wasn't. I wasn't a member of none of the units before I

9 received a call-up.

10 Q. How about your father?

11 A. He didn't -- he wasn't a member either.

12 Q. Mr. Radic, do you know where was the headquarters of the 4th

13 Detachment?

14 A. Across the road from a neighbour Tadic in the Sit factory.

15 Q. Mr. Radic, in those days, you frequented the AS Cafe and tell me

16 were there any rooms inside the cafe that were off limits and that were

17 closed for other patrons?

18 A. No, there were no such rooms, everything was accessible.

19 Q. Tell me, Mr. Radic, what was the ethnic composition of the cafe

20 patrons?

21 A. All ethnicities were there, Croats, Muslims and Serbs as well.

22 Q. Did that continue during the war as well?

23 A. Yes, both during the war and after the war, everything remained

24 the same.

25 Q. Tell me, Mr. Radic, I would like to ask you something about your

1 family. You mentioned in your previous testimony that your father had

2 three sisters, did they live in Bosanski Samac before the war?

3 A. Yes, two of them lived in Samac and one was married in Gradacac.

4 Q. Where did she spend the war?

5 A. In the beginning, she came -- at the beginning of the war, she

6 came to Samac.

7 Q. Did she spend the whole time of the war in Samac?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What about the other sisters?

10 A. They were also in Samac.

11 Q. Did they have families?

12 A. Yes, they did.

13 Q. Are they still living in Samac nowadays? During the war or more

14 precisely until the end of December 1993, were they forcibly evicted from

15 their flats?

16 A. These two sisters were not evicted, but the third one who was

17 married in Gradacac, she was given a flat where she was allowed to stay

18 with her daughters while the situation was as it was.

19 MR. LAZAREVIC: Here on page 35 line 3, there are actually two

20 questions that were posed to the witness. "Are they still living in Samac

21 now a days?" But it looks that we don't have the answer to the question

22 in the record, the witness actually did give his answer but maybe it

23 should be posed again.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, can -- I'm sure counsel can deal with that.

25 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation].

1 Q. Sir, let me just ask you because we -- there is something unclear

2 in the transcript, I will repeat the question. You said your father had

3 three sisters?

4 A. Yes, three sisters.

5 Q. Two of them, before the war, lived in Samac, the whole time?

6 A. Yes, they did.

7 Q. Do they still live in Samac?

8 A. These two sisters live in Samac and the third sister was given a

9 flat in Gradacac, but she occasionally comes to Samac to visit her

10 daughter.

11 Q. Did she spend the whole time of the war in Samac?

12 A. Yes, she did.

13 Q. Did she reside with any of her sisters?

14 A. Yes, she did, and in the meantime she got her own flat. That was

15 a kind of temporary residence and the other two sisters had their own

16 flats.

17 Q. Where was this temporary residence?

18 A. In an apartment block, she was given a flat.

19 Q. In Bosanski Samac?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. She is a Croat?

22 A. Yes, she is.

23 Q. Tell me, Mr. Radic, did any of your father's sisters was evicted

24 from her flat during the war?

25 A. None of them were.

1 Q. While your father was detained, did you ever leave your flat?

2 A. No, we stayed there until the end of the war, after the war, and

3 we still live in that same flat.

4 Q. Mr. Radic, what happened with your uncle's property after he left

5 Samac?

6 A. The property of my uncle was hit by a missile and the house was

7 demolished, not altogether but ...

8 Q. Your uncle is still alive, I understand?

9 A. No, he died.

10 Q. Did he die after he left Samac?

11 A. A few months after he had been exchanged he had some stomach

12 pains, he had undergone surgery and he never woke up after the surgery.

13 Q. Mr. Radic, you said that you have known Miroslav Tadic for a long

14 time. Do you know, as much as you know and heard, did Miroslav Tadic

15 force any Muslim or Croat to leave Samac?

16 A. Never. He never forced anyone. If he was able to help anyone, he

17 did help, but he never forced anyone.

18 Q. Mr. Radic, through your contacts with Miroslav Tadic and his

19 attitude towards you and your family, did you notice any discriminatory

20 attitude or intolerance towards you as Croats?

21 A. Not only in my case, but that applies to all ethnicities, Miroslav

22 Tadic behaved correctly. He helped us. He provided food and water for

23 us. He never uttered an abusive word and he never insulted us.

24 Q. Have you ever heard or seen, yourself, that he treated other

25 non-Serbs in a discriminatory manner, that he degraded them or abused

1 them?

2 A. I've never heard any such thing, nor were there any rumours to

3 that effect.

4 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have finished my

5 examination. I have no more questions.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Any other counsel wishes to ask this witness?

7 MR. LAZAREVIC: No, Your Honour. On behalf of Mr. Pantelic, he

8 didn't want to examine the witness.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Cross-examination by the Prosecution, if

10 any.

11 Cross-examined by Mr. Re:

12 Q. Mr. Radic, my name is David Re from the Prosecution. I'm going to

13 ask you some questions; do you understand that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Your evidence was that you've known Miroslav Tadic for 16 or 17

16 years. You must know him fairly well then.

17 A. Yes, I know very well.

18 Q. Is he a relative of yours or your family's?

19 A. No, we are neighbours.

20 Q. Was he a friend or is he a friend of your parents?

21 A. He is the friend of our whole household.

22 Q. A very good friend of your whole household?

23 A. A very good one.

24 Q. When you were young, did you call him uncle?

25 A. No, I didn't.

1 Q. Were your parents customers of his at Cafe As before, during or

2 after the war?

3 A. Well, no. My father didn't go to places like this, restaurants

4 and things, and my mother too, and -- but I did go there during the war.

5 Q. Did you work for Mr. Tadic during the war in his Cafe As?

6 A. No, I didn't.

7 Q. You said there were no rooms off limit, does that -- did you mean

8 that there were no rooms off limit in his cafe to you?

9 A. No, no. All rooms in the cafe were accessible.

10 Q. The cafe of course is connected to his house or his apartment,

11 isn't it?

12 A. The cafe has a room where cards were played and as far as that is

13 concerned, I can claim that there were no off-limit rooms.

14 Q. The cafe is connected to his apartment, isn't it?

15 A. Yes, upstairs, but in the cafe, whenever I went there, no rooms

16 were closed.

17 Q. I'm asking you about the access to his house or his apartment

18 upstairs. Was his apartment upstairs accessible at the time you were

19 there at the cafe; that is, could you go through the cafe upstairs to his

20 house without obstruction?

21 A. While I was there, whenever I say -- I was there once, my old man

22 wanted to paint something in the neighbour's house and I went there.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't think that this is -- I think

24 this is confusing the witness. I suppose that the question was whether

25 the apartment was accessible from the cafe and I think that it wasn't

1 translated properly so we have to clarify or not now or maybe after the

2 cross-examination but I think this was due to an incorrect translation.

3 MR. RE: I can certainly clarify it, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

5 MR. RE:

6 Q. I'm asking you, Mr. Radic, about the access from the cafe to

7 Mr. Tadic's apartment upstairs. Do you understand that, just yes or no?

8 A. No, I didn't understand.

9 Q. Do you understand now that's what I'm asking you?

10 A. You asked me whether the cafe is connected to the house, if I

11 understood you properly.

12 Q. I'll ask the question again in a different way. You've agreed

13 that the cafe was connected to the house. What I'm asking you now is in

14 the time you went to the cafe, were you able to go from the cafe to the

15 apartment upstairs without obstruction? Were you able to just walk from

16 the cafe up the stairs to his apartment?

17 A. Well, I couldn't when there were two entrances, one to the cafe

18 and one to the house.

19 Q. Are you saying that the entrance to the house was locked to

20 customers, that is customers couldn't go from the cafe upstairs to the

21 apartment?

22 A. The guests were not locked up at all.

23 Q. Was his house or his apartment upstairs off limits to customers in

24 the cafe?

25 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Re. I think for clarity on line

1 12, the answer is recorded as, "The guests were not locked up at all."

2 Maybe you could clarify whether that, in fact, was what the witness said.

3 MR. RE:

4 Q. You heard what Her Honour Judge Williams just said. Did you say,

5 Mr. Radic, that "the guests were not locked up at all" or is that a

6 mistranslation?

7 A. The guests were in the cafe and not in the house.

8 Q. All I'm asking you is was Mr. Tadic's apartment upstairs off

9 limits to the customers in the cafe? That's all I want to know.

10 A. No, because I had the opportunity to go up there when I needed

11 something so it wasn't closed off.

12 Q. Do you know the accused Mr. Simo Zaric?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. How long have you known Mr. Simo Zaric for?

15 A. I have known him since I was a boy and so I've known him during

16 the war. I've known him for long enough.

17 Q. Do your parents also know Mr. Zaric?

18 A. Yes, they did.

19 Q. Are they also friends with Mr. Zaric?

20 A. Yes, yes, they are in good relations.

21 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... A friend of

22 Mr. Zaric. Let us make some distinction, because he knows Mr. Zaric being

23 a friend is a bit different.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: I don't see anything wrong with the question and the

25 Prosecution can go ahead.

1 MR. RE:

2 Q. Your parents are in good relations with Mr. Zaric, meaning they're

3 friends with Mr. Zaric, are you a friend of Mr. Zaric's?

4 A. Yes, I am. During the war -- before the war, I was 16 or 17 years

5 old. When the war began I was 18. During the war, I got to know

6 Mr. Zaric even better, I knew him before the war, but during the war, I

7 got to know him better.

8 Q. How did you get to know him during the war?

9 A. I knew him in a good light through socialising with him, through

10 help and so on.

11 Q. Well, can you just expand upon that, please, what do you mean by

12 socialising with him and through help? What sort of things did you and

13 Mr. Zaric do together during the war?

14 A. We socialised, we played billiards, we celebrated birthdays and so

15 on.

16 Q. And what about when you said a moment ago "through help," what did

17 you mean you knew him through help during the war?

18 A. Well, he wouldn't let anybody pick on me as a Croat. He was also

19 well-meaning towards other people and he didn't do any harm to me or to my

20 family and that's why I think he was good.

21 Q. And what official position did he hold during the war when you

22 were socialising with him, celebrating birthdays and so on and playing

23 billiards?

24 A. After the war, I was on good terms with him, I knew him also

25 during the war. He wouldn't let anyone pick on me or attack me because I

1 did have some problems, certain people would pick on me, hit me, members

2 of the army, and Mr. Tadic and Mr. Zaric always wouldn't let them pick on

3 me so I meant that in that sense.

4 Q. Mr. Zaric, of course, had a high official position in Bosanski

5 Samac during the war, didn't he?

6 A. I heard -- I did hear that he had -- I didn't hear that he had a

7 high position. I heard that Simo Zaric was in the army, but I'm not

8 really all that familiar with that.

9 Q. You knew, of course, that Mr. Tadic had a high official position

10 in the town, I think, as you said he was in charge of the exchanges?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So you were quite fortunate in having these two people with

13 official positions in a position to protect you, weren't you?

14 A. I was very lucky with them, to be on good terms with them and

15 nothing more than that.

16 Q. Did you know or do you know Simo Zaric's son?

17 A. I do. His son and I went to school together.

18 Q. Are you or were you friends with his son?

19 A. His son and I went to school together for eight years and we know

20 each other very well to this very day.

21 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Re, maybe we should clarify which one of

22 Mr. Zaric's sons we're talking about here, okay?

23 MR. RE:

24 Q. Can you tell us which son we're talking about, Mr. Radic?

25 A. Mirel Zaric.

1 Q. And did you remain friends with Mirel Zaric during the war?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Was he in the army with you?

4 A. No, we were not together in the army.

5 Q. Was he in the army at all or did he remain behind?

6 A. Yes. He was in the army for a while, just like I was, and then he

7 went to school or the university or whoever was able to do anything like

8 that so everything ended quickly.

9 Q. Now, what about Dr. Blagoje Simic, do you know Dr. Blagoje Simic

10 sitting over there?

11 A. Blagoje Simic I know so-so from just seeing him around like that.

12 Q. Do your parents know Blagoje Simic?

13 A. Maybe also by sight but I doubt it.

14 Q. Apart from your father, mother, and your father's three sisters,

15 as of April 1992, did you have any other relatives living in Bosanski

16 Samac?

17 A. That's all the family that I had in Samac. I didn't have anyone

18 else in Samac.

19 Q. Your father's third sister from Gradacac, did she have a husband?

20 A. Yes, she did.

21 Q. What was his ethnicity?

22 A. He was a Serb.

23 Q. What was the ethnicity of the person whose flat she moved into

24 when she came to Samac?

25 A. I don't know exactly but when everything stablised itself, when

1 all the apartments were stablised, she returned the apartment to the

2 person who was there, got his apartment back as soon as he came back after

3 the war. So she didn't spend a long time in that apartment, it was only

4 until the owner came and she left as soon as she got her own apartment in

5 Gradacac. Now she's living privately and paying rent because her

6 apartment in Gradacac was also occupied.

7 Q. What was the name of the person whose apartment it was; in other

8 words, whose apartment was it that she moved into?

9 A. I don't know exactly because I didn't have an opportunity to ask

10 that because I was involved with my own affairs. I went to the frontline

11 and I was concerned saving my life.

12 Q. Her Serb husband, did he come with her to Samac and move into that

13 apartment?

14 A. No, he came. I don't know how long he was over there during the

15 war, he was sent away from Gradacac through some line or some forest. I

16 don't know exactly.

17 Q. Was he in the VRS during the war when your father's sister was

18 living in the apartment in Samac?

19 A. No, he wasn't. He was not a member of any army or any party. He

20 worked in a large company in Gradacac and he wasn't in any army.

21 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Re, maybe you should clarify on page 45, line

22 2, the answer to your question concerning the Serb husband of the Witness'

23 aunt, you asked whether he came with her to Samac and move into that

24 apartment and the answer was "no, he came," so it doesn't really tell us

25 too much.

1 MR. RE: I will clarify that, Your Honour.

2 Q. When did your aunt's husband come to the apartment in Samac?

3 A. He came maybe -- I don't know exactly, maybe it was after seven or

4 eight months, something like that. It's not quite precise, but

5 approximately then.

6 Q. Was that in 1993?

7 A. Yes, I think that it was. Yes, in 1993.

8 Q. What about your father's two other sisters, did they have husbands

9 during the war?

10 A. Yes, both of my aunts were married.

11 Q. What was the ethnicity of their husbands?

12 A. One of them was a Serb and the other was a Croat.

13 Q. The one whose husband was a Serb, did he go away to war in the

14 army or did he remain behind in Samac?

15 A. Could you please repeat your question?

16 Q. Your aunt whose husband was a Serb, did he remain in Samac during

17 the war or did he go to -- go in the army?

18 A. This aunt of mine, her husband and my older cousin both went to

19 the army.

20 Q. And that was the Bosnian Serb army, was it?

21 A. Well, I -- I was in that army as well. There were all kinds of

22 people there, not only Serbs, there were Croats and Muslims.

23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure what the witness

24 said.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the witness repeat what he said. The

1 interpreters didn't catch all of it.

2 MR. RE:

3 Q. Mr. Radic, can you just repeat your last answer? I asked you

4 whether your aunt's husband and older cousin went into the Bosnian Serb

5 army, just repeat your answer to that, please.

6 A. This aunt whose husband came from Gradacac, is that the one you

7 mean or the other two aunts, one of whose husbands is a Serb? Could you

8 please clarify that?

9 Q. You had three aunts, two married to Serbs one married to a Croat.

10 One was in Samac and married to a Serb?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 Q. I'm talking about her husband.

13 A. Yes. Yes, he did go to the line.

14 Q. For the VRS?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. Your older cousin, is that a son?

17 A. Yes, that's right. We are first cousins.

18 Q. Did he regard himself as a Croat or a Serb?

19 A. Well, he considered himself a Serb, that's what they said, but

20 unfortunately for him, he didn't spend a long time in the army and he was

21 killed on the line and he was 20 or 21 when he was killed.

22 Q. What about your third aunt, the one who was married to a Croat?

23 What did he do during the war, what happened to him?

24 A. Her husband went across to the Croatian side and she stayed there.

25 MR. LUKIC: Excuse me, Your Honour.

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have nothing against this line, but

3 it's not clear, the part, the interpreter said that they did not hear the

4 questions went in another direction and the witness did not actually

5 repeat what he said. The sentence that he said, I cannot ask that

6 question, the witness said something, but the questions are now going in a

7 completely different direction.

8 What he said is that he was talking about the ethnic composition

9 of the army of Bosnian Serbs, this is what he said in that one sentence.

10 MR. RE: That, however, was not my question. My question was

11 whether the husband went to war, there was nothing about the ethnic

12 composition of the army. My friend can clarify that in re-examination if

13 he wishes so it's not part of the Prosecution case.

14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] But the instruction of the Trial

15 Chamber was for the witness to repeat his answer and not the line or the

16 case of the Prosecution. We did not get what the Trial Chamber requested

17 and it's already gone past but it is something we will clarify in

18 re-examination.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you will take it up in re-examination.

20 Mr. Re.

21 MR. RE:

22 Q. You were detained on the 16th of April by, you said, special

23 police, they took your money from you. Did you get your money back from

24 them?

25 A. They did not return the money to me.

1 Q. How much money did they take?

2 A. I didn't have a lot of money, 70 or 80 marks.

3 Q. When you were locked up, I wasn't quite sure what you said about

4 who you saw in the police station. You said you saw some police on duty,

5 were those police -- or police had gone to work, were those police who

6 were locked up, is that what you were saying?

7 A. Yes, they were there with me together in that cell, the people

8 who were there.

9 Q. Were those police officers non-Serbs, that is Croats and Muslims?

10 A. Yes, in that sense. They were Muslims, the people who worked

11 there and so on.

12 Q. The cells you were in, they filled up during that day and the next

13 day, didn't they, with people brought in?

14 A. When I was there, those two cells had about 10 or 15 of us in each

15 cell. There was one bed in each cell and there was a corridor next to the

16 two cells and there were about 7, 8 or 10 people there until we went to

17 the TO. Once we went to the TO, there were as many of us there as there

18 were for as long as I was there. Then when I went, I guess during the

19 time I was there, no more people came for that time.

20 Q. Were you ever charged with committing a criminal offence?

21 A. No, I never was.

22 Q. Were you ever brought to court as a result of your detention?

23 A. No, never.

24 Q. These guards came and took people out of the cells at intervals,

25 for interrogation, didn't they?

1 A. Yes, they -- those two Serbians took me and took me upstairs and

2 when the interrogation was finished, they brought me back to the cell.

3 Q. The guards took other prisoners out of the cells for interrogation

4 too, didn't they?

5 A. While I was there, no. I was maybe there and another man,

6 perhaps, I don't know his name, but other than that, nobody else went for

7 interrogation for as long as I was there.

8 Q. Did your parents know that you were detained in the SUP and the TO

9 for those few days in April 1992?

10 A. They found out the next day, so they only found out on Saturday.

11 They heard from friends that I was seen at the SUP so they heard about it

12 on Saturday and I was detained on Thursday and Friday.

13 Q. Do you know which friends they heard from that you were detained

14 in the SUP or TO?

15 A. Probably from the soldiers who were there, people who were walking

16 around. I don't know. Because a lot of people knew me and I was on good

17 terms with all of them.

18 Q. Did you see Mr. Simo Zaric at either the SUP or the TO?

19 A. I didn't see Simo Zaric neither on Thursday or Friday or Saturday

20 or Sunday at the SUP or at the TO.

21 Q. Did any of the people who were detained there with you tell you

22 that they had seen or spoken to Mr. Zaric at the SUP or the TO?

23 A. I didn't hear that, no.

24 Q. What about Mr. Miroslav Tadic, did you see Mr. Miroslav Tadic at

25 the SUP or the TO when you were detained there in April 1992?

1 A. I didn't see him either.

2 Q. Did any of the prisoners or detainees tell you that they had seen

3 or heard Miroslav Tadic at the SUP or TO during those few days?

4 A. I didn't hear anything about that. There were -- there was

5 talk -- there was no talk about either Simo Zaric or Miroslav Tadic as far

6 as I know, they didn't talk about that, no.

7 Q. Do you know whether Miroslav Tadic knew that you were imprisoned

8 for those few days in April 1992?

9 A. I don't know exactly whether he was there or whether he knew, but

10 I assume that it's possible that he knew because I came on the -- the day,

11 Thursday to Friday, so it's possible but I don't know.

12 Q. Were you ever given any reasons for your release?

13 A. Well, the reasons were -- the reasons for my release were because

14 I wasn't guilty and because I was on the street at a wrong time and there

15 were no other provocations.

16 Q. I was asking you whether anyone gave you reasons for your release.

17 Did anyone tell you where you were being released?

18 A. Well, a man from Serbia came. I don't know his name, but I would

19 like to know his name. He came to the TO to fetch me. He took me

20 outside, he put his arm around my shoulders and he said, "Young man, come

21 with me to the SUP," and he added, "You are not guilty of anything so you

22 just nicely go back home so if anyone stops you in the street you just can

23 say to them that it was me who released you," and that is how I was

24 released from the TO.

25 Q. Do you know whether your parents spoke to Miroslav Tadic about

1 having you released from the SUP or the TO?

2 A. I don't know that precisely.

3 Q. Mr. Krgovic showed you a document, it was P71 which was an order

4 of the Crisis Staff ordering Croats to be isolated and taken to vital

5 facilities dated the 15th of May, 1992. Do you remember him showing you a

6 document maybe a half an hour ago?

7 A. Another document? You mean the other document?

8 Q. The document about the --

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Can the witness be shown again so that we don't

10 waste time?

11 MR. RE:

12 Q. You have P71 in front of you, Mr. Radic, that's the document

13 ordering the isolation of Croats in Samac.

14 A. That was not isolation of Croats, that referred to those who were

15 in the HDZ party or who had weapons. They remained in the school and the

16 others had work obligation.

17 Q. Well, if you can just read the words under decision where it says

18 "All people of Croatian nationality on the territory of the Serbian

19 municipality of Bosanski Samac," it doesn't say anywhere there HDZ, does

20 it?

21 A. No, I'm just telling you that those who were members of the

22 party -- I don't know if they had to or not, but as for the rest, that

23 isn't it.

24 Q. Your evidence when Mr. Krgovic showed you that document was, you

25 said something to the effect of "No member of my family was arrested at

1 the time." That was what you said. Now, that document's dated the 15th

2 of May, your other evidence was that your father was arrested on the 1st

3 of June, 1992 which is only two weeks later. When you said no member of

4 my family was arrested at the time, do you mean -- just let me finish --

5 did you mean around that day being the 15th of May, 1992?

6 A. Well, my father was taken for questioning. He asked him if he had

7 questions and this -- weapons and this and that and nothing else happened

8 and after that, he was transferred to Zasavica.

9 Q. Mr. Radic, I'm only asking you about your answer to a question

10 Mr. Krgovic asked you in relation to that document and that no members of

11 your family were arrested at the time. Your evidence was your father was

12 arrested on the 1st of June, 1992 and taken to the high school. When you

13 said, "No member of my family was arrested at the time," did you mean at

14 the time as in around those days, around the 15th of May? That's all I'm

15 asking you.

16 A. Well, I don't know the exact date. I was imprisoned and I was

17 under the shock and I cannot exactly recall the day when this all

18 happened.

19 Q. I don't understand what you're saying. Your earlier evidence was

20 that your father as arrested on the 1st of June, 1992. You stand by that

21 evidence, don't you?

22 A. Yes, of course. He was taken to this school that was in

23 mid-summer when he was transferred to Zasavica.

24 Q. Your father -- I withdraw that I'll start again.

25 Some armed men came to your house and took your father away, he

1 was not free to leave, was he? He had to go with them.

2 A. Not armed men but the police came to take him, asked him for his

3 full name and then took him to the school, asked him if he was member of

4 any party, and the next morning, my mother and I went there and said --

5 and that's what had happened. They told my mother and myself that if he

6 wasn't guilty of being member of any party, he would be released.

7 Q. Can I just ask you, please to concentrate on the question I'm

8 asking and answer that one. Your father was arrested, he was not free to

9 leave the company of those police officers, was he?

10 A. No. The policemen came nicely and took him nicely away. They

11 didn't hit him nor force him, they just told him nicely that an order was

12 issued for him to be taken in. They behaved in a correct way. They knew

13 my father, and didn't say anything apart from that. So nobody hit him or

14 anything like that.

15 Q. Again, I didn't ask you about what they did to him so can you

16 please confine your answers to the question I'm asking you.

17 He was not free to leave because he was under arrest, it's a yes

18 or no question.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Re, is it not clear when the witness said they

20 just told him nicely that an order was issued for him to be taken in so

21 the police were acting on that order.

22 MR. RE: I take Your Honour's point, I won't pursue that any

23 further.

24 Q. Mr. Radic, your father was not a member of any political party,

25 was he? Just, please, yes or no.

1 A. No.

2 Q. So he couldn't have been guilty of being a member of any party,

3 could he?

4 A. In the terms that you are putting it, my father was reported by

5 some neighbours of ours that he was this and that and that is why he was

6 picked up. It all started from our neighbours, but I don't know which

7 neighbours exactly, but that was rumour that he was tipped off by a

8 neighbour and that is why the police came to take him in.

9 Q. Your evidence was, "They told my mother and myself that he wasn't

10 guilty of being a member of any party, he would be released." My question

11 was simply your father wasn't a member of any party so he couldn't have

12 been guilty of being a member of a party, could he? That's all I'm asking

13 you based on what you said a moment ago.

14 A. That's what I told you and I have nothing else to add and I don't

15 know, myself, how it all went.

16 Q. Your father was detained without charge or trial at the high

17 school, wasn't he?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. How long was he in the high school for?

20 A. Well, he went there on the 1st of June and sometime in mid-summer,

21 I don't know exactly, he was transferred or he was not transferred, in

22 fact, because they needed a butcher over there, and he applied for that

23 job because later, a conclusion was adopted or made that my father wasn't

24 guilty of anything at all.

25 Q. Mr. Radic, please just answer the question. I asked you how long

1 he was there for, that's all. You said mid-summer, is that July, is that

2 August, just doing the best you can?

3 A. Well, I don't know exactly because in total, he spent in the

4 school and in the Zasavica seven or eight months and I cannot say exactly

5 it was a month or a month and a half. My mother and I were in a shock and

6 we didn't know exactly so I think it's one month or month and a half,

7 depends, maybe end of August, I don't know exactly. So all in all, in

8 Zasavica and in the school, he spent between seven and eight months.

9 Q. He wasn't free to leave the high school, was he?

10 A. No, he wasn't because somebody was obstructing this procedure.

11 Q. It was guarded by armed guards, wasn't it?

12 A. Yes, that was the police.

13 Q. And they took him to Zasavica, didn't they?

14 A. That's right.

15 Q. He wasn't free to leave Zasavica when he was working there as a

16 butcher either, was he?

17 A. Well, he worked there until exchange took place.

18 Q. When he was working there as a butcher, he was not free to leave

19 it, was he?

20 A. Could you please repeat the question?

21 Q. Your father was taken from the high school to Zasavica to work as

22 a butcher. For as long as he worked there as a butcher, he was not free

23 to leave Zasavica, was he?

24 A. No, he voluntarily applied to go to Zasavica. That was his job

25 that he performed there and he was waiting there to be exchanged. He was

1 free to walk around the village but he couldn't leave the village.

2 Everything was free, not only for him, but for other people who were there

3 as well.

4 Q. Just that none of them could leave Zasavica, could they?

5 A. No, because they had this work obligation and they were needed

6 there because butchers were scarce and they worked there.

7 Q. Your father could not have left Zasavica and gone home and lived

8 in your place in Bosanski Samac while he was doing his work obligation

9 there, could he?

10 A. No, until exchange took place.

11 Q. He couldn't work as a butcher in Zasavica during the day and come

12 home to Samac, a few kilometres away, at night, could he?

13 A. I cannot say exactly that's how it was. I don't know on whose

14 orders it was. I only know that he was in Zasavica but aside from that, I

15 don't know anything else.

16 Q. And as far as you know, your father wasn't a criminal, was he?

17 A. No, he wasn't.

18 Q. He hadn't committed any offences, had he?

19 A. No, he hadn't.

20 Q. What about your uncle, was he a criminal?

21 A. No, he wasn't.

22 Q. Had he committed any offences that you knew of?

23 A. No.

24 Q. While your father was detained in the SUP, did he tell you what

25 happened to him?

1 A. No, he didn't tell anything. Whoever ordered that, ordered that

2 in Zasavica. He didn't have any problems. They were waiting for

3 exchange. The main thing was that nobody provoked him, beat him, et

4 cetera.

5 MR. LAZAREVIC: Just one second because I have noticed something

6 just to assist my learned colleague. The answer was here on page 57 line

7 15, no he didn't tell anything. Whoever ordered that, ordered that, and

8 that's where the point mark should be and then he -- it was another word

9 in Zasavica he didn't have any problems. In this way it doesn't make much

10 sense. It seems that someone from Zasavica ordered something to the

11 police or ...

12 MR. RE: I asked him about the SUP, I don't know where Zasavica

13 comes from. I can ask again.

14 Q. Mr. Radic --

15 JUDGE MUMBA: I think his evidence in chief was clear on that,

16 that he wasn't ill-treated in Zasavica.

17 MR. RE: I wasn't asking him about Zasavica, I don't know where

18 Zasavica comes from I only asked him about the SUP. The transcript says

19 Zasavica.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yeah, you can go ahead with your question.

21 MR. RE: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Mr. Radic, I'm only asking you now about the high school, please

23 only answer the question about the high school, nothing else. When your

24 father was detained in the high school, do you know whether he went out to

25 work during the day and came back to the high school in the afternoon or

1 night?

2 A. I cannot say exactly, but some people went out of the school to do

3 their job during the day, and in the night they went back to school,

4 depended on which kind of craft skills were required until it became

5 necessary for people to go to Zasavica.

6 Q. Just to clarify that, are you saying you don't know whether your

7 father was one of those people who left during the day to work and came

8 back at night?

9 A. I can tell you, but I only know that now, it depended whether

10 somebody's painting skills were needed. As I told you, my old man used to

11 do painting works and after that, he would return to school. That's all I

12 know and as for the rest, I wouldn't be able to reply to you.

13 Q. To be crystal clear, your father told you that he went out in the

14 day to do painting and came back to the school at night? I just want to

15 clarify that one point.

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. You told Mr. Krgovic, when he asked you some questions, about you

18 and your mother trying to visit your father in Zasavica and you said, "In

19 most cases, they let us through." You said you managed to get to go there

20 two or three times. How many times did you try to visit your father in

21 Zasavica but were turned away?

22 A. Well, I already said it all depended on the police. In 70 or 80

23 or maybe 90 per cent of the cases they let us through and 10 per cent they

24 didn't let us through, it all depended in which mood they were or

25 something like that. Maybe my mother was turned away not more than once

1 or twice or three times.

2 Q. What about you, were you ever turned away when you tried to visit

3 your father in Zasavica? If yes, how many times?

4 JUDGE MUMBA: I thought the explanation was clear that there were

5 times when he was turned away, maybe 10 per cent which depended on the

6 mood of the police or the guards. So why do you want the exact number of

7 times?

8 MR. RE: I don't want the exact number, the figures just quite add

9 up, he said two to three times or ten per cent.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: But it's clear that he can't remember exactly which

11 times the point is more. They were allowed more than they weren't

12 allowed. But on most occasions they were allowed. On some occasions

13 which were fewer occasions, they were not allowed to see him. I think

14 this is clear.

15 MR. RE: I won't take that any further, Your Honour.

16 Q. When you went to Zasavica, -- I'll start again. You saw the video

17 and I think you pointed out where you thought your father's house was.

18 When you went to see him, did you go straight to see him and stay with him

19 or did you do other things in the village?

20 A. No, I just went directly to the house where he was in.

21 Q. And that was about, I think on the video, maybe 70 metres or so

22 inside the road as it turns to the left; is that right?

23 A. Well, when you start from the bridge and then a row of houses and

24 I think it was the sixth house on the left-hand side. I cannot say

25 exactly now. I am not 100 per cent sure, but my mother and I went to this

1 house when my father and his colleague were.

2 Q. When you went to visit him, how long did you stay there?

3 A. Well, let me tell you, we were allowed to stay. Nobody told us,

4 "You can stay half an hour, one hour, two hours," we could stay for as

5 long as we wanted without any problems.

6 Q. I'm just asking you about the two or three times you actually went

7 to see him there, from memory, how long did you stay with him on those two

8 or three occasions?

9 A. Approximately between one and two hours because it was difficult

10 for me to be there. I wanted to stay as short as possible, but once I

11 realised that he was safe, and that there were no problems, it was a

12 relief for my mother and myself. The first time we saw how he was faring,

13 we didn't -- we didn't worry too much after that. We saw that he was in a

14 safe place, that nobody is ill -- was ill treating-him, there were no

15 provocations and that everything was in place.

16 Q. So I just want to summarise your evidence on your visits to

17 Zasavica, that is, you went there two or three times, you went straight to

18 his house which was the sixth or seventh house in from turning the road,

19 you stayed there for maybe one to two hours and you stayed there and --

20 left and went straight out; is that correct? Is that your evidence about

21 your visits to Zasavica?

22 A. That's correct.

23 Q. You said that your mother, in response to questions from

24 Mr. Krgovic, didn't have a work obligation during the war. What was her

25 state of health during the war?

1 A. My mother is a rather plumpy person. She was in good health. She

2 couldn't work -- she could work but nobody asked her to.

3 Q. Your evidence to Mr. Krgovic when he asked you questions about

4 Mr. Miroslav Tadic was that no one paid him any money to leave Samac on an

5 exchange. You, of course, weren't with Mr. Tadic during negotiations for

6 people to get on exchange lists, were you?

7 A. I wasn't present, but there were a lot of people in my street and

8 everywhere and everybody talked and said that Mr. Tadic never took money

9 from anyone for exchange. That's what I know.

10 Q. It wasn't what I was asking you. I'm asking you about your own

11 personal experiences. You also didn't go to any exchanges with Mr. Tadic,

12 did you; just yes or no?

13 A. No, I didn't go.

14 Q. How did you come to take shelter in Mr. Tadic's cafe during the

15 war after your release from the TO? How was that arranged?

16 A. When we returned from the cellar, my mother and father and I came,

17 the shells were falling, my father and mother went to find shelter at one

18 of our neighbours and I went to this cafe while the shelling was in

19 progress. I fell into it, I bruised my hands and they put bandages on my

20 hands and they -- I went back after everything was over.

21 Q. How long did you stay in Mr. Tadic's cellar for?

22 A. Until the danger was over. I was there, we ate there in the

23 evening as well, I went home, my parents were at home, we were always

24 there whenever it was necessary. I was there and my mother and father

25 were at a neighbours' across the street they didn't come with me.

1 Q. What I'm trying to find out is how long you spent in the cellar,

2 was it hours, days, months, weeks, what was it?

3 A. When the shells were falling, this would be for a couple of hours,

4 when it was dangerous during the shelling, then I would stay a little bit

5 longer to see that the shelling wouldn't begin again and so that I

6 wouldn't need to escape again. So I would stay there for a few hours and

7 when everything calmed down, I would go back home.

8 Q. And how often did you go to Mr. Tadic's cellar, was it every day,

9 every week, every month, between what periods?

10 A. It depends. When I had some free time, that's when I would go,

11 when I didn't have any free time, we were all there, we would keep each

12 other company, that was where it was the safest for us, not only for me

13 but for all ethnicities.

14 Q. I'm just asking about you. How often did you go to Mr. Tadic's

15 cellar was it every time it was shelled?

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Krgovic.

17 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise for interrupting my

18 learned friend but the Witness already replied in the previous answer when

19 the -- when there was shelling, that's when I would go. So he already

20 specified the time. And to the previous question of the Prosecutor also

21 he replied.

22 MR. RE: Your Honour, I'm merely trying to find out how often --

23 when the shelling was, was it every day was it every week, was it every

24 month, that's all I want to know. It wasn't quite answered. There are

25 two things that I can't quite make sense of. I'm just asking the witness

1 did you go every time it was shelled, was it shelled every day, every week

2 or every second day, when? It's just unclear at the moment. That's all

3 I'm trying to find out.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I think you can find out from the witness.

5 MR. RE:

6 Q. Mr. Radic, do you understand, I just want to know, we just want to

7 know how often you went to the cellar. Was it every day, was it being

8 shelled every day or was it every second day or every third day? That's

9 all I want to know and for how long, was it for April until the next year

10 or when so just those two things?

11 A. I went only when the shells were falling. When I had free time, I

12 was there. We were in the cellar once, we were for sometime here and

13 there but whenever we were there, I would go to my neighbour's Miroslav

14 Tadic's. I was there when I had time off.

15 Q. How often were the shells falling that you had to take shelter in

16 the cellar?

17 A. At one point, there was shelling more frequently, one, two or

18 three days. Then for 10, 15 or 20 days, there would be no danger then

19 again it would begin. Perhaps it would not be 10 days in a row it would

20 be 2 or 3 days and then it would stop or 3 or 4 days and then it would

21 stop so when I was there, I would go there but when there was no shelling,

22 then I would be in my apartment and that's where I would be more or less.

23 Q. And you said there were other people in the cellar when the

24 shelling was occurring, who were these other people?

25 A. There were people who happened to be on the street, I know those

1 people, I don't know everybody's name but we were all there together.

2 Nobody was separate. Always somebody would be going somewhere and they

3 would happen to be on the street and then they would come to the

4 neighbour, Miroslav Tadic's or to the cafe and so on.

5 Q. You said earlier that you received your recruitment papers in

6 January 1993 while your father was in Zasavica. Did you tell your father

7 that you had received your work -- your recruitment papers before he left

8 Zasavica?

9 A. I didn't tell that to my father, but my father heard that from the

10 other side, that I had received the recruitment papers and I said that I

11 would go and he said thank God that you are going to go because we stayed

12 behind here and we plan to stay. That's why I reported to the

13 recruitment, because I had the right not to go but I decided to go and

14 this is how my father accepted it too.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: We are taking our break, Mr. Re. Yes. And we

16 shall resume our proceedings at 1805.

17 --- Break taken at 5.47 p.m.

18 --- On resuming at 6.07 p.m.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, the Prosecution.

20 MR. RE:

21 Q. Mr. Radic, just before the break, you said that your father had

22 heard from the other side that you'd received the recruitment papers, you

23 said you'd go and he said, "Thank God you're going to go because we stayed

24 behind here and we plan to stay." That's what you said just before the

25 break. Do you mean by that that your going to fight -- your joining the

1 VRS enabled your father to stay behind in Samac?

2 A. That's what he said so there's nothing much for me to say about

3 that. I received this summons for the army, I went to the army, I came

4 back from the army, and I'm still living there to this very day and there

5 are no problems at all. I remained living there.

6 Q. Your father, I think you said he had a private business, was it a

7 private business as a painter in Samac?

8 A. Yes, he was a painter from before the war, that was his

9 profession.

10 Q. Did he own business premises before the war from which he

11 conducted his painting business?

12 A. No, it wasn't really a major business, it was -- we had a garage,

13 that's where the tools were kept and everything. It wasn't some big

14 company or anything like that.

15 Q. Was it a garage he owned or rented?

16 A. No, no, it was our garage, just made from boards.

17 Q. Did your father have any employees in his painting business?

18 A. Could you please repeat the question? I didn't understand it.

19 Q. Did your father have any people working for him in this painting

20 business he had before the war?

21 A. No. He had a couple of assistants, one or two of them, if there

22 was a bigger job, but if it was a small job, it depends if there was a --

23 if it was a job in a house, then two of them would go, if it was an

24 apartment, then one person would go. He had assistants but he was the

25 craftsman so without him, nothing could be done.

1 Q. So he would subcontract people if -- when needed, that's what

2 you're saying?

3 A. Yes, when he needed help, then -- but he had one person who was

4 there permanently but if needed, then somebody would come to earn some

5 extra money.

6 Q. Before the war, did your father have contracts or did your father

7 do painting work for the local government authorities?

8 A. No. He worked mainly in households or cafes or restaurants and so

9 on. He worked a lot in the villages, but he never did anything like that.

10 Q. Did he do work for Miroslav Tadic, Simo Zaric, or Blagoje Simic?

11 A. He did some painting for Simo Zaric and Blagoje Simic, no, for

12 Miroslav Tadic, but he worked for money. They paid for everything that he

13 did.

14 Q. Was that before, during or after the war?

15 A. Before the war and during the war were these jobs done, specially

16 when my father was in the exchange. Mr. Miroslav Tadic called him, he was

17 there on work duty, to paint something for him, a room or something. He

18 gave him food, he gave him drink and he paid him so it wasn't anything

19 like that whereas in other cases, others would just say thank you.

20 Q. You said you had a garage. Did your father -- or did your parents

21 own a house or a flat in Samac?

22 A. No, we had an apartment in Samac and we have a weekend house in

23 Ledenice, something like that and the garage was something that we just

24 made from planks.

25 Q. Where is Ledenice?

1 A. Ledenice is next to Gradacac.

2 Q. And where was the garage?

3 A. The garage was in Samac right next to our apartment.

4 MR. LAZAREVIC: Maybe my colleague would like to take a look at

5 the transcript on page 67 -- now it's all right. Now it's all right, it's

6 been replaced.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Re, you can continue.

8 MR. RE:

9 Q. And did your parents keep the garage, their apartment, and their

10 weekender in Ledenice after the war?

11 A. Yes. The garage is not big and in Ledenice is the -- that's where

12 the property is of my mother so that was the land where the house was

13 built before the war.

14 Q. The apartment, did your parents keep your apartment after the

15 war -- during and after the war?

16 A. Yes. We kept it during the war and we're in that apartment now.

17 And during the weekend my mother and father --

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Re, this is a problem you keep repeating the

19 question sometimes. I mean, this question of the apartment, them living

20 in that apartment during the war and up to now has been stated I think

21 three times.

22 MR. RE: I'm sorry. My memory has failed me on that particular

23 point, Your Honour, I don't have the transcript. I don't have the

24 benefit of the transcript in front of me as I ask the question. I

25 couldn't remember that one.

1 Q. Mr. Radic, when did your father resume his private painting

2 business?

3 A. He resumed it during the war and after the war and he's doing the

4 same kind of work now. There isn't really that much work right now, but

5 there is some work.

6 Q. You said earlier when I asked you that you knew Mr. Zaric during

7 the war playing billiards with him and socialising with him and I think

8 you said in the army, did you serve in the army with Mr. Zaric?

9 A. No, we were not in the army together, but during the war, we were

10 there and we socialised because I was in Grebnice so we knew each other.

11 That's all.

12 MR. RE: Your Honour, could we move into private session for just

13 one moment so I can put the name of a person to the witness.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, can we move into private session.

15 [Private session]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [Open session]

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Krgovic, we are in open session.

2 Re-examined by Mr. Krgovic:

3 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Radic, I'm going to ask you a few more

4 questions relating to your responses to the Prosecutor during

5 cross-examination. Mr. Radic, the Prosecutor asked you whether you were

6 friends with Mr. Miroslav Tadic and you explained that you socialised, you

7 were neighbours, and friends and that Miroslav Tadic helped you and your

8 family so I'm asking you now: Did you notice whether Miroslav Tadic

9 helped other people of Muslim or Croat ethnicity who were not his friends?

10 A. He helped me and those Muslims. Miroslav Tadic did not do a bad

11 turn to anyone or said anything bad to anyone. If he knew a person or if

12 he didn't know a person, he would help them if he was able to help them.

13 As far as I know, he never did anything that would harm a person.

14 Q. The Prosecutor asked you about your engagement in the army of

15 Republika Srpska and he asked you a question stating: Did you serve in

16 the Serbian army? And then you responded, you started to reply but this

17 was not recorded in the transcript. You said that it was not only the

18 Serb army so could you please continue with your answer?

19 A. It wasn't a Serb army when I was there. When I was in Bijeljina

20 and then returned, I was the only Croat, I was the only Croat as far as

21 ethnicity was concerned and the rest was Serbs, but when I came back to

22 Samac on the 6th of May -- I went on the 4th, came back on the 6th to be

23 in my units with my people, and when I was there in the command and on

24 the border, I was transferred to Grebnice, to the frontline, and I went

25 there to the trenches together with Muslims and Croats and Serbs and we

1 were all together in one trench.

2 Q. The Prosecutor asked you when he mentioned the detention of your

3 father and he asked you about your uncle and he said -- he asked you that

4 your uncle, whether he was a criminal or was he suspected of anything.

5 Was he ever arrested or imprisoned?

6 A. No, he was never arrested.

7 Q. During the cross-examination, the Prosecutor asked you about your

8 father, whether your father committed any criminal act, whether he had

9 weapons, whether he was a member of any party and he asked you and you

10 replied to the question whether your father was ever tried or whether

11 there were any criminal charges brought against your father. Now, I'm

12 asking you: Was your father ever suspected of bearing arms or taking part

13 in any formations?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Or was he possibly suspected of anything like that?

16 A. He was never suspected of anything like that and he never

17 committed any kind of criminal act. He was never in any political party

18 and in particular, he never had any weapons. It's possible that a

19 neighbour reported him. That's probably what it was all about. But he

20 never did anything.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please pause between question

22 and answer.

23 A. That was confirmed, yes.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Krgovic, you are forgetting to pause. The

25 interpreters are having a problem.

1 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. I'm sorry, I have to ask you from the beginning. At the end, was

3 it determined that your father did not commit any criminal act and that he

4 never had any weapons or participated in armed rebellion?

5 A. Yes, that was determined and resolved. My old man is absolutely

6 not guilty. He did not commit any criminal act or anything like that.

7 Q. Secondly, when the Prosecutor asked you about Zasavica and he

8 asked you to describe to him when you entered Zasavica, whether you went

9 directly to your father or you didn't go to Zasavica in -- around Zasavica

10 and you described those conditions. I'm asking you now did your father

11 tell you how or did you -- did he ever complain about the conditions of

12 life in the village of Zasavica which were there at the time?

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Re.

14 MR. RE: I object. I didn't ask anything about the conditions in

15 Zasavica. That was covered in chief. I only asked about how long he went

16 there for and coming and going. That was it.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Krgovic, you can't extend your

18 examination-in-chief now.

19 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't have any more

20 questions.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you, Mr. Radic, for giving evidence. We are

22 finished with you. You may leave the courtroom.

23 [The witness withdrew]

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, the next witness.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the next witness on the

1 schedule is the accused, Miroslav Tadic. I am ready to begin, although I

2 wanted to propose, since we have half an hour left, that we begin with

3 Mr. Tadic tomorrow and that maybe we can deal with some legal issues right

4 now, but if the Chamber wishes, we can start.

5 I wanted to inform the Chamber namely about the witnesses. You

6 were informed about a witness who did not testify during the depositions

7 and we decided to give up on that witness. There is another witness

8 regarding -- in accordance with Rule 92 bis I also wanted to ask for the

9 instructions of the Chamber regarding our demographic expertise. I don't

10 know whether this is the time to deal with that or do you wish us to start

11 with Mr. Tadic's testimony?

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I think we will deal with the procedural issues

14 we have. We can start hearing the evidence of the accused tomorrow. So

15 you can proceed with the matters you wanted to raise.

16 Your microphone.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 On behalf of Miroslav Tadic's Defence I wanted to inform the

19 Chamber you received the motion informing you or -- of the officer who did

20 the depositions about the fact that one of the witnesses will not appear,

21 that is witness with initials DW 5/3. The gist of the matter is that this

22 witness, even though we spoke with him several times, and he promised that

23 he would come to Belgrade, because of some circumstances that he didn't

24 want to discuss with me too much, he said in any case that he did not wish

25 to leave the territory of Samac and did not wish to testify. That is why

1 we are giving up this witness. I did not wish to exert any pressure even

2 though during the weekend, myself and my colleague Mr. Pisarevic tried -

3 who knows his son very well - to talk to this witness and to try to

4 influence him so that he would still come and testify. But we are not

5 going to ask this witness to testify. And also, we will not ask Witness

6 Zika Krunic to give us a statement under Rule 92 bis. This is a witness

7 under number 35 and he was to testify under Rule 92 bis.

8 We cannot get in touch with this witness, namely he told me that

9 because of his obligations as an investigating judge, he is not able to

10 leave the territory where he's working and I could not guarantee to him

11 that he would not be invited for cross-examination. He said that he could

12 only sign a statement for me so in that sense, I do not wish to call this

13 witness on behalf of Tadic's Defence.

14 There is another technical problem with a witness who was to be --

15 JUDGE MUMBA: What was his name because I'm looking on the list of

16 witnesses.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That is Witness Zika Krunic he was

18 originally planned to give a deposition in the pre-trial procedure. He is

19 an investigative judge from Bijeljina. But by your decision, you --

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] -- you said that his testimony be

22 given based on the 92 bis, but he said that due to his other commitments,

23 he cannot leave his work place and that is why we gave up on taking this

24 statement; however, other 92 bis statements will be taken as instructed on

25 the 18th of February.

1 I have another technical problem concerning the testimony of

2 another witness via videolink. I wouldn't like to mention his name,

3 that's the witness who has a sick wife and who is supposed to come to

4 Belgrade, maybe we can switch to a closed session. My problem is when I

5 asked the secretary of the Chamber could we know approximately at what

6 time during the day we can have this videolink because that person can

7 come to Belgrade in the morning and return in the evening, so within the

8 two weeks, we would like to know in advance some timetable to organise for

9 his arrival or maybe the videolink to have in the early morning hours.

10 So I would kindly ask if I could be notified seven days in advance

11 before the videolink is established so that I can know where we stand and

12 finally --

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Just before you go on, the videolink witnesses are

14 scheduled for the week beginning 3rd March and that week we are sitting

15 mornings unless the courtroom is unavailable but otherwise our schedule is

16 for morning sessions.

17 You wanted private session for -- you no longer need it, yes, so

18 what's the other point?

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Finally, Your Honours, in compliance

20 with your order regarding the demographic expert study, we appealed to the

21 government of Bosnia and Herzegovina on the occasion of the letter sent by

22 the Census Bureau of BH asking if they can provide this material. We sent

23 this letter to the government on the 10th of January through -- authorised

24 Tribunal liaison officers, however, we did not receive any response and I

25 would simply like to know, based on the instructions by the Chamber, do

1 we -- are we going to wait or are we going to apply Rule 54? I'm afraid

2 that we might enter a stage of the procedure when we must provide this

3 expert study and we would not have received any response from the

4 government.

5 So maybe I can submit to the Court a writ that I had submitted to

6 them and appeal to them officially or should we just wait because we have

7 no other channels of communication?

8 JUDGE MUMBA: I think, since you've been waiting and there's no

9 response, I think the best thing is to apply to the Chamber then we can

10 pick it up from there.

11 Now, finally -- okay. You finish your points before I raise my

12 concerns with you.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have finished everything concerning

14 the procedure -- Defence procedure for Miroslav Tadic. What I can

15 conclude -- so the next one to take the witness stand is Mr. Tadic and we

16 have two more witnesses: Mr. Grujicic and another witness. We have two

17 92 bis depositions that will be taken in Samac on the 18th of February and

18 they will be signed, duly signed.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: A point for clarity of the record, how many

20 witnesses do you have for videolink?

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Miroslav Tadic Defence two.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think the others -- that are here. So we

23 are trying to see how much time we may need. If you could remember them,

24 these two witnesses, how many hours did you ask for them?

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will tell you right away. For

1 Mr. Grujicic, Milutin Grujicic, I requested in my motion when I suggested

2 live testimonies, I wanted an examination-in-chief to last between six and

3 seven hours and this is the reason why. Maybe I can reduce that time but

4 what is important, in my view, with Mr. Grujicic is that through him, at

5 least 25 documents will have to be tendered. As far as we are concerned,

6 the examination-in-chief wouldn't last longer than one hour.

7 The second witness is just like we envisaged in the summary. He

8 will go to speak just about an exchange episode or a civilian protection

9 but not more than one hour examination-in-chief; however, for Grujicic, I

10 will do my best. I cannot promise you, but I'm afraid due to the number

11 of documents it will take longer, but not more than six hours, but let's

12 say five to six hours we would require.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: And I take it that the documents have already been

14 given to the Prosecution.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The documents have been presented to

16 the Prosecution and the documents will be given to the Registry, there is

17 no doubt about that, but we'll do our best to expedite this but these are

18 the documents signed by him and that I have to review with him.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I just want to make sure that the Prosecution

20 will have already given you what their position is so that we don't waste

21 time during the proceedings asking after each document whether or not they

22 are objecting.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't think there will be any

24 problems. In the pre-trial procedure, these documents have been given and

25 I will specifically mark these documents and the Prosecutor will be fully

1 informed about all the documents that we intend to tender and they will be

2 able to give their comments.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well then.

4 Yes, the other counsel, Mr. Pantelic. Videolink witnesses.

5 MR. PANTELIC: Yes.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: I think we already have them on record.

7 MR. PANTELIC: This is one witness and I think -- I'm not maybe

8 able off the top of my head to tell you, around 10 hours, I think, for my

9 witness. He was a member of the Crisis Staff as well as the -- he

10 performed some duties in Odzak so there are documents to introduce through

11 him with regard specifically to Odzak because this is also the area

12 covered by the indictment, but I will be able to -- Your Honour, I will be

13 able to be more precise after the back information from my supporting

14 staff from the field exactly maybe we could also reduce some hours.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think there will be some exercise to reduce

16 some of the matters which have been sufficiently covered by the evidence.

17 The exhibits have already been given to the Prosecution.

18 MR. PANTELIC: In fact, I just collected them during this weekend,

19 last weekend.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: For this witness.

21 MR. PANTELIC: Yes. And I can give them in B/C/S version, it's a

22 couple of the instructions of the Ministry of Defence, in fact, the

23 witness gave me from his personal archive some of these documents and also

24 I will immediately proceed with the official translations. So maybe my

25 learned friends can also, through their interpreters, maybe to speed up

1 things, I mean for their needs but I will do my best with the Registry

2 to -- it's -- I will tell you around five or six pages in total of the

3 documents. There is one telex and the other --

4 JUDGE MUMBA: That's all I need to know that the documents will be

5 discussed with the Prosecution. So it's only one witness.

6 MR. PANTELIC: And maybe this is appropriate opportunity, Your

7 Honour, as I said, I'm not so sure whether I raised that or did I inform

8 the Registry and also Madam Court Officer. The Defence for Blagoje Simic

9 proposed two character witnesses, and finally we have third one which --

10 the lady should be able to sign her statement during the 18th of February.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

12 MR. PANTELIC: And her name is Cvijetic, Desanka a physician by

13 profession. So she will be a third character witness for Blagoje Simic

14 just for the record so that we can arrange that.

15 [Legal officer and Trial Chamber confer]

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic, we will have to check how many

17 witnesses actually have already been listed as character witnesses for

18 your client.

19 MR. PANTELIC: Yes.

20 You granted three witnesses, three character witnesses per each

21 accused.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes.

23 MR. PANTELIC: And I already filed for two character witnesses

24 statement and this is the third one. This is a third one, third character

25 witness.

1 [Legal officer and Trial Chamber confer]

2 JUDGE MUMBA: What I want clarification on is whether this person

3 you are mentioning today has already been on the list or is it a new

4 witness, you are replacing somebody.

5 MR. PANTELIC: That is a new witness, Your Honour, because my

6 first, I would say, proposal for a witness, this gentleman is not able to

7 come.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: So you are substituting.

9 MR. PANTELIC: So I am substituting instead of Dr. Mesud Nogic I

10 now will ask, respectfully ask to substitute him with Dr. Cvijetic

11 Desanka, also a physician.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: I think, Mr. Pantelic, on this one, let's deal with

13 it tomorrow. We just want to check our lists.

14 MR. PANTELIC: No problem. I shall also contact Madam Court

15 Officer and we shall try to resolve that matter in direct contact.

16 Also Your Honour, I'm obliged to inform this Trial Chamber in

17 regard to one of the deposition witnesses from Mr. Blagoje Simic Defence.

18 Unfortunately, retired colonel Mr. Vujnovic Gojko was not able to come to

19 testify according to Rule 71. I am now trying to see what was the

20 obstacles. What is his personal situations. Unofficially, I heard

21 that --

22 JUDGE MUMBA: We have already seen your document, your paper which

23 you filed about this and I would rather you find out and then you give

24 correct information to the Trial Chamber.

25 MR. PANTELIC: Yes.

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Tomorrow or next week.

2 MR. PANTELIC: Because I am very shortly, very briefly,

3 unofficially I got the information that a members of Prosecution office

4 contact him, let's say a weeks before and it's not so clear whether he was

5 to somehow prevented to come to testify or what was the -- and I would be

6 very grateful if my learned friend from Prosecution office could check

7 this issue and also from my side, we shall also check with him to see what

8 is the problem with that regard.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you can discuss that with the Prosecution --

10 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, I will discuss to the Prosecution.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: -- outside the sitting hours.

12 Mr. Lazarevic.

13 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, thank you, Your Honours.

14 As for Mr. Zaric Defence, we have just one witness proposed to

15 give his testimony via videolink and this is Witness Mirko Pavic. We

16 already explained in one of our motions.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, you did. I just wanted --

18 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. And what I can inform the Trial Chamber is

19 that we don't expect him to testify more than three hours but I have some

20 concerns in respect to this witness because, as we already said to the

21 Trial Chamber, he had a brain stroke and the only actually problem that we

22 have is that he speaks a little bit slower than ordinary people so I

23 cannot make this promise that it would last for three hours or -- we'll

24 just have to wait and see. Mr. Pisarevic did proofing with this witness

25 actually, and he informed me that he has no problem about giving the

1 testimony but he speaks slower than other people so that's the only

2 problem that we have so it might --

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Because I was thinking that if you have such a

4 problem, why don't you get a statement from him and then it can be given

5 to the Prosecution and then they can decide whether or not, like similar

6 to Rule 92 instead of putting him under the strain of being a viva voce

7 witness if he has such a serious health problem.

8 MR. LAZAREVIC: We were guided by the decision of the Trial

9 Chamber because we proposed this witness to give testimony by the way of

10 deposition then the ruling came.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. I think at the time we were not aware of his

12 poor health. So you can move him to the 92 witnesses, I think, to save

13 him the problem of being under strain.

14 MR. LAZAREVIC: Well, having all this in mind, I will contact

15 Mr. Pisarevic as soon as possible.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: And then yes, because he could still come under

17 videolink if the other problem is travelling. Yeah, please look into that

18 and since your colleague is in the field, he can easily arrange for that.

19 The officials for collecting statements will be going so you can make

20 those arrangements and then he can still come under videolink if the

21 Prosecution wish to have him under cross-examination because I don't want

22 to have a situation where we have videolink and the witness breaks down

23 and then we have to adjourn because the courtroom situation is very

24 critical this is why I'm asking about these witnesses. So I think --

25 let's switch him to that and then he can come for videolink if

1 cross-examination will be required.

2 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, Your Honour, we will definitely do what is in

3 the best interest of the witness, not to push him any harder than we need

4 to.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, and of the accused.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, any other matters?

8 MR. RE: Yes, Your Honour, just briefly two matters in response to

9 Mr. Pantelic's points. The first is in relation to his scheduled ten-hour

10 Crisis Staff videolink witness. In ten hours one would anticipate the

11 witness will give evidence of many, many facts and I'd certainly ask that

12 we have a proper summary of the facts on which the witness will testify.

13 I don't think we have one yet.

14 The second matter is retired Lieutenant Colonel Vujnovic and

15 Mr. Pantelic's speculation the Prosecution may have spoken to him which I

16 hear about for the first time in Court now. The Prosecution team here

17 puts on the record it has never spoken to Lieutenant Colonel Vujnovic. We

18 will make appropriate inquiries of our colleagues, someone may have spoken

19 to him because of his role on General Talic's command staff, we don't

20 know, but we'll find out.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well.

22 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, yes, Your Honour, I agree just for the record

23 of course I never mentioned that my particular learned friends from this

24 team contacted him, maybe that was in another case or I will try to do

25 that to find out and also I hope that my learned friends will help us.

1 With regard to the first issue of course I'll do my best to

2 prepare a summary with the issues that will be discussed so I will fulfill

3 my obligations with regard to that. Yes. Thank you.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: And the summaries should avoid repetition of the

5 other witness' evidence, the ones we have already heard viva voce.

6 I wanted to find out from the counsel for Mr. Simo Zaric about the

7 statements, Rule 92 statements. I understand they are already ready.

8 MR. LAZAREVIC: Oh, yes, Your Honour. Yes, we have received all

9 the translations. I brought them just this morning and I just couldn't

10 make enough copies for the Trial Chamber. I will be ready to tender them

11 into evidence tomorrow before we start with Mr. Tadic.

12 Also, I have to inform the Trial Chamber that we have collected

13 actually that two 92 bis statements have been certified during our stay in

14 Belgrade and I will have to give these for translation but at this moment,

15 all the statements that we took during our stay in Bosanski Samac in

16 December are ready to be tendered into evidence and it will be done

17 tomorrow.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I think we will find an appropriate moment

19 tomorrow so that tomorrow, the first witness, the accused, should start

20 instead of starting with something else. All right?

21 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. So we'll adjourn. Our proceedings will

23 continue tomorrow. I think we are in courtroom 1.

24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

25 at 6.50 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday

1 the 14th day of February, 2003, at 2.15 p.m.

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