Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15449

1 Wednesday, 19 February 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. Case number IT-95-9-T, the

7 Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Miroslav Tadic, and Simo Zaric.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, before we start, Mr. Lukic, I just wanted to

9 correct yesterday's ruling on whether or not the other parties can ask

10 questions to Mr. Tadic. I was thinking of the confrontation of one

11 witness against the other, yes, they can. So I do hope that they will

12 indicate to the Prosecution how much time they will take so that the

13 Prosecution can prepare their time for their questions for

14 cross-examination.

15 So let's continue. Mr. Lukic.


17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 Examined by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours good

20 morning all.

21 Q. Good morning, Mr. Tadic. Yesterday, when we mentioned Zasavica,

22 you said that one of your brothers-in-law from that village was a Croat,

23 can you give us some more relevant information about your family to show

24 what your relations were with other ethnic groups?

25 A. The first thing I would like to say has to do with the sufferings

Page 15450

1 of my family in World War II.

2 Q. What the Judge asked you about?

3 A. Yes very briefly. In World War II my entire family was

4 victimised, perished. My parents, my grandparents, my uncle and another

5 15 or so of my relatives all bearing the last name of Tadic. Only four of

6 us remain, four of us children. I was the eldest. I was seven and a half

7 years old. My youngest brother was one and a half years old. We grew up

8 with a grandmother, or rather, it was an old lady who was my grandfather's

9 stepmother. After that I went to an orphanage for war orphans in one

10 place --

11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch the place.

12 A. And my brother went to Maribor [phoen] to a home in Maribor, an

13 orphanage which is in Slovenia. My wife was in an orphanage in Doboj.

14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Would you repeat the place where you were in an orphanage?

16 A. It was in Lukavac, this is near Tuzla.

17 Q. That's all we needed. It didn't enter the record, the rest is in

18 the record.

19 A. That's it very briefly.

20 Q. Would you now please answer Judge Williams' question as to what

21 you know about the way your parents were killed?

22 A. They were killed by the Ustasha.

23 Q. In relation to what I asked you, did the past history of your

24 family in any way affect your attitude toward the Croatian population and

25 tell me about the mixed marriages in the Tadic family, we have already

Page 15451

1 heard about your daughter, were there any other mixed marriages in your

2 family with Croats?

3 A. I have already said that my two nieces were married to Croats, my

4 sister's daughters. My brother is also married to a Croat. My sister is

5 married to a Muslim. About 40 members of the Tadic family are in mixed

6 marriages.

7 Q. Thank you. We will now go back to what we talked about

8 yesterday. We will speak of exchanges, I will remind you of the

9 testimony of Mrs. Jelena Kapetanovic who said that in October she wanted

10 to board a bus, she was told she was to be exchanged and when she arrived,

11 the policeman wouldn't let her on the bus, you remember her testimony to

12 that effect?

13 I ask that the witness be shown Exhibit D67/3.

14 Was it possible, Mr. Tadic, if the list was completed and agreed

15 on, was it possible to add on a name subsequently or to remove a name

16 from the list after the lists had already been agreed upon?

17 A. Well, everything's possible, but it didn't happen. This was not

18 what usually happened.

19 Q. My second question: Was it possible for someone to be exchanged

20 whose name was not on the list?

21 A. No one could board a bus who was not on the list. I remember a

22 neighbour of mine called Nijaz, he was a Muslim who wanted to go and he

23 managed to sneak on to the bus unnoticed and in Crkvina somebody noticed

24 him and one of the members of the escort took him off the bus in Crkvina.

25 This Nijaz was exchanged later when his name was on the list.

Page 15452

1 Q. One more question. Why did you have to prevent people who were

2 not on the list from going to the exchange? What sort of problems would

3 arise if someone whose name was not on the list tried to go to the

4 demarcation line, what would happen?

5 A. Well, when I said there were very many checkpoints and later on

6 perhaps I will explain what the situation was in Gradiska itself,

7 somebody could always check the list, it might occur to them to go and

8 check. This happened very rarely, but someone might think of checking

9 whether the people on the bus were actually the same people on the list

10 and if there were any discrepancies, a very difficult situation might

11 arise.

12 Q. Will you please look at this document? Can you comment on it?

13 A. The 7th of October, 1992, this is the exchange that Jelena

14 Kapetanovic wanted to join and you can see that her name is not on this

15 list.

16 Q. Was this list drawn up ahead of time? Is this a list of people

17 who were to be exchanged on that day?

18 A. This list was drawn up by the Red Cross when it had been agreed

19 upon, they would type it out. They had the appropriate service and the

20 typewriter and they were able to type out these lists and the list is

21 final.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I now ask that the witness be shown

23 document D68/3.

24 Q. Could you please have a look at this list?

25 A. This is the list of the 5th of November, 1992.

Page 15453

1 Q. Is this the first exchange after that one?

2 A. Yes, it's one of the first exchanges that took place afterwards.

3 Q. Would you look at number 31?

4 A. Well, she's listed here as Jelena Stanisic. It was easier for

5 her to cross over into Croatia with this last name than with the last

6 name of Kapetanovic.

7 Q. Do you know that she needed guarantees to go to Croatia?

8 A. Well, probably someone from the Croatian side would have to be

9 looking for her and we heard that she was from that area although at that

10 time, I didn't know where she was from. I didn't know that she had

11 brothers either. I didn't know that her sister lived in Samac who was a

12 ham radio operator. It was only later that I heard that she was claiming

13 I hadn't allowed her to be exchanged. I know that her brothers were in

14 the HVO [as interpreted].

15 Q. Mr. Tadic, did you tell her that everybody would be exchanged but

16 that it wouldn't be so easy for her to leave?

17 A. I had no reason to stop her from going or to allow her to go. If

18 someone was looking for her and if she had applied, then she would have

19 to wait her turn. She could have applied a month before, but if there

20 were no exchanges in the intervening period, then she couldn't have gone.

21 It's obvious that she went in November 1992. Before that, she probably

22 didn't want to leave because her boyfriend was there who was 12 years

23 younger than she was and until he swam across the River Sava, it never

24 crossed her mind to go to Croatia.

25 Q. We know that he swam across the River Sava in August, between

Page 15454

1 that time and November, do you remember how many exchanges were organised?

2 A. Only one, the one she wanted to join but she wasn't on the list

3 then so she wasn't exchanged at that time.

4 MR. LAZAREVIC: There is something here in the transcript that

5 witness did not say it's on page 5, row 11. Here it says I know that her

6 brothers were in the HVO. This is completely different from what the

7 witness said so maybe my colleague can clarify that.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, can I have that corrected?

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes, the witness said the opposite.

10 Q. Did you know that her brothers were in the HVO and that her

11 sister was a ham radio operator?

12 A. Well, first of all, I didn't even know she had brothers so how

13 could I have known that her brothers were in the HVO? And it was here in

14 the Court that I heard that her sister was a ham radio operator and that

15 she lived in Samac. I learned some things later on, but at that time, I

16 had no idea about her sister or her being a ham radio operator.

17 Q. Well, now that we are discussing checkpoints, I would like to

18 give Mr. Tadic a blank sheet of paper so that he can make a sketch of the

19 roads around Dragalic where most of the exchanges took place and this is

20 a very important place because of these lists and these checkpoints. So

21 Mr. Tadic, if you could make a sketch please. Your movements at the

22 approach to Dragalic.

23 A. The road from Samac to Dragalic is approximately 250 kilometres

24 long and at first, the route was via Modrica, Rudanka, Stanar, Prnjavor,

25 Klasnica to Gradiska. Later on, the route went through Derventa,

Page 15455

1 Prnjavor, so these were the two routes that were used. The first one,

2 while there were war operations going on around Dvor and Derventa and

3 later on we used the shorter route through Derventa. Gradiska is a border

4 crossing. And from this direction here, from this direction, one would

5 reach Gradiska. This is the River Sava.

6 The first checkpoint was here. This is the police of the

7 Republika Srpska.

8 Q. Would you mark it with number one?

9 A. Number one. When the buses arrived and witnesses have already

10 mentioned this, they would stop here, approximately. Here, there was a

11 small park with a few benches and there was some sort of institution

12 behind it.

13 Q. Would you mark it with number two?

14 A. There was a small park here with a few benches and there was some

15 sort of institution behind it. Here, there was a coffee shop and this

16 was a shop so when people left the buses, they were able to enter the

17 coffee shop.

18 Q. Would you please mark the coffee shop with three and the buses

19 with four?

20 A. And the cafe that has frequently been mentioned was across the

21 road and it was located here.

22 Q. That's number five.

23 A. There was a garden around it and if the weather was nice, then I

24 would go there and people would see me there. When the formalities were

25 completed here and these varied from case to case, that's the River Sava,

Page 15456

1 so the formalities varied from case to case depending on the mood of the

2 people there, on how well I was cooperating with them, and so on, but for

3 the most part, all this happened in a very correct way with a few

4 exceptions. I tried to explain to them that a control had been carried

5 out in Samac.

6 Q. Who are they?

7 A. The policemen manning the checkpoint. I tried to explain to them

8 that everything had been checked, that everything had been done properly

9 and very often, I would take the escort along, a policeman or two from

10 Samac to confirm what I told them.

11 Q. What was it that was controlled or checked in the case of these

12 people?

13 A. Everything starting from the list to the things they were taking

14 with them they could take anything they liked but we would check that

15 they had no weapons, so that was the procedure.

16 Q. Yes, go on?

17 A. When you crossed the River Sava on the other side here, on the

18 other bank was the checkpoint of the Nepalese Battalion.

19 Q. Mark it with number six please?

20 A. Here there were members of the Nepalese Battalion of the UN and

21 they would check everything too. Mostly they would check the number of

22 people on the bus to see if it tallied with the number of people on the

23 list.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, for the sake of clarity,

25 the witness said we would check they had no weapons, and that was the

Page 15457

1 procedure. I wonder who checked. It might be of benefit to the Chamber,

2 was it the people who loaded them on to the buses in Bosanski Samac or is

3 he referring to checkpoints along the way or both.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Who was tasked with checking and searching people for weapons?

6 A. The main check was conducted in Samac; however, it was quite

7 superficial. They didn't go into details.

8 Q. Was it done by police in Samac?

9 A. Yes, the police in Samac carried out this check but it was very

10 superficial. It wasn't detailed they would simply ask, "Do you have any

11 weapons, you don't." They checked for prohibited items and the same

12 procedure was applied here. As I have told you, the Nepalese Battalion

13 always asked to be -- a passage of vehicle or a bus, they would probe the

14 bags to see whether there were any hard items in there and they would

15 also check the number of people. If there were 50 on the list, they

16 would make sure that there were 50 on the bus, you know they wouldn't go

17 name by name.

18 Q. And where did you go following that?

19 A. After that checkpoint, some 300 metres further on, there was a

20 checkpoint of the Krajina police, let's call it that, that was the UNPA

21 zone, the area that was under the UN protection at the time and they had

22 a checkpoint there manned by Serbs from this UNPA zone. They had a

23 checkpoint there and they were quite strict so to speak and they were

24 known to cause trouble frequently but not a lot of trouble. They wanted

25 to count -- do the head count and then compare it with the list and then

Page 15458

1 call out names. For example, they would call somebody sitting on a seat

2 number 10 and that person would call back and then they would go through

3 names around that person and so on.

4 After completing the procedure at that checkpoint and the highway

5 somewhere here, so going from Zagreb to Belgrade. So after we leave this

6 area here, we have some 3 kilometres to get to the highway which was

7 closed at the time and then here, we get to another checkpoint and that

8 checkpoint was manned by the Krajina police.

9 Q. Put number seven next to the first checkpoint of the Krajina

10 police and number eight next to the second one.

11 A. So we get to the second checkpoint of the Krajina police where

12 the check carried out was not very thorough because they would call them

13 from the previous checkpoint to tell them that there was really nothing

14 to search for and then following that, we get to this place which is the

15 site of the exchange.

16 Q. And there was a gas pump there?

17 A. Yes, there was. I hope we will see it again at another exhibit,

18 and that's number nine. The Nepalese Battalion was here, this is where

19 their base was and then behind the Nepalese Battalion was the checkpoint

20 of the Croatian police so they had their own checkpoints further on.

21 Q. All right. Mark it with a number 11. So the site of the exchange

22 by the gas station is number 9, Nepalese Battalion's base is number 10 and

23 the checkpoint of the Croatian police is 11.

24 A. That checkpoint corresponds to this one, number 8. They had the

25 same role. They were between -- on either side of this neutral zone where

Page 15459

1 the Nepalese Battalion is stationed.

2 Q. Let's call the sketch the sketch of checkpoints in the vicinity of

3 Dragalic.

4 A. And I will put the date here, the 19th, I think it is the 19th

5 today.

6 Q. Can we just be given a number for this exhibit?


8 THE REGISTRAR: This will be treated as Exhibit D160/3.

9 MR. LAZAREVIC: Just a matter of accuracy of the transcript,

10 because here it says I will put the date on the 19th, I think it is the

11 19th today I'm sorry. It has already been changed I'm sorry.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, it's correct.


14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. What were you going to say?

16 A. I just wanted to add a sentence to say that you can tell it was

17 quite complicated to get to this site and there were a lot of delays, the

18 buses were delayed. That couldn't be avoided as I have told you at the

19 beginning it all depended on the people manning the checkpoint and their

20 mood had quite an impact on us, the people who were arriving there.

21 Q. Let us mention something that you said yesterday. After you

22 started working with the commission of the 1st Krajina Corps, who was

23 obtaining the permits and who was giving notice of people arriving for

24 exchange?

25 A. The notice was given by Mr. Grujicic so our police, police of

Page 15460

1 Republika Srpska, and police of Republika Srpska Krajina were notified by

2 him. All of them had to be notified in order for us to be able to cross

3 over to the other side or rather to enter the UNPA zone.

4 Q. We already have exhibits in evidence corroborating this.

5 Now we shall turn to other events in chronological order. All of

6 us know here, it has not been contested that at the end of November, all

7 of the prisoners were transferred from Samac to Batkovic and I will now

8 put several questions to you concerning Batkovic.

9 Under whose jurisdiction was it? Who had established that

10 detention facility in Batkovic?

11 A. Batkovic was established by the East Bosnia Corps and the decision

12 on setting it up was signed by General Novica Simic who, at the time, was

13 commander of the East Bosnia Corps.

14 Q. And who was in charge of exchanging people who were in Batkovic?

15 A. It was under the exclusive jurisdiction of the military

16 commissions. First of all, that of the East Bosnia Corps and then the

17 1st Krajina Corps, which probably closely cooperated but the Main Staff

18 also had an important role in it because it consented to all of these

19 exchanges, approved of them.

20 Q. Do you know whether approvals of the military judiciary organs

21 were also needed for the exchanges to be carried out, do you know anything

22 about that?

23 A. I learned some things from Mr. Grujicic and from Major Savic later

24 on, the one we mentioned yesterday. He was the chairman of the commission

25 but not for a long time there was also Matija Bodiroga there. Bodiroga,

Page 15461

1 he is also mentioned as Bodirogic but we knew him as Matija Bodiroga. He

2 was a lawyer in Bijeljina. And he was a reserve lieutenant in the

3 Yugoslav Peoples' Army. He had a uniform and the insignia of a reserve

4 lieutenant.

5 Q. Did you go to Batkovic?

6 A. I went to Batkovic several times.

7 Q. You've mentioned that he was the reserve officer of the Yugoslav

8 Peoples' Army, you probably made a mistake you meant the army of

9 Republika Srpska?

10 A. He became a reserve officer in the Yugoslav Peoples' Army and

11 later it was transferred to the army of Republika Srpska.

12 Q. But the time that we're interested in, what about at that time,

13 end of 1992, 1993?

14 A. At that time he was with the army of Republika Srpska.

15 Q. How did you get to Batkovic, Mr. Tadic, who sent you there and

16 why did you go there?

17 A. Batkovic is in Bijeljina away from Bijeljina in the direction of

18 Vlaka [phoen] where there is a border crossing that we spoke of yesterday

19 so that there are some 160 kilometres from Samac to Batkovic. Travelling

20 from Samac to Banja Luka, there are some 160 kilometres and I've already

21 said that from Samac to Dragalic, there are about 250 kilometres. All of

22 these places seemed even more distant at the time because roads were poor

23 and to go from Banja Luka to Batkovic to take over detainees or prisoners

24 and to complete it in one day was quite a task.

25 Therefore, Samac was used as a midpoint in implementing the task.

Page 15462

1 So the prisoners were taken over from Batkovic, brought to Samac, where

2 they would spend the night and then the following day they would continue

3 to Dragalic. They didn't go to Banja Luka, they went to Dragalic whereas

4 the commission from Banja Luka would go directly to Dragalic which is some

5 100 kilometres or they would go to the border crossing in Gradiska. And

6 this is where they would wait for the buses and join the column headed

7 towards Dragalic.

8 Q. Did you use the opportunity when soldiers were exchanged and some

9 of them were from Samac, to take part in it?

10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please repeat the question?

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic, before we get the answer, the

12 interpreters asked whether you could -- asked you to repeat the question,

13 I think they didn't get everything. And also the pause is becoming

14 narrower and narrower between after your question and the answer of Mr.

15 Tadic.

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. You, meaning the commission from Samac, did you avail yourself of

18 the opportunity when detainees from Batkovic were exchanged, those that

19 were originally from Samac and if there was a possibility for their

20 families to come along if they wanted?

21 A. If that had been pre-agreed, then that's how it happened in

22 addition to those from Batkovic who were usually on a separate bus, I say

23 usually, because it wasn't a rule, it wasn't a rule that we adhered to

24 strictly. However, civilians would join in, those that had been

25 prearranged. If there were only few prisoners from Batkovic, then the

Page 15463

1 bus would be filled up with civilians, the remaining seats would be

2 filled up with civilians. If there were more prisoners then they would

3 be on a separate bus and civilians would be on a separate bus so it just

4 depended.

5 Q. The name of Sabah Seric has been mentioned before this Chamber,

6 the exchange that took place on the 24th of December 1992. I don't want

7 to put a list in front of you but you probably know very well this. Let's

8 clarify this first, is there another person in Samac with a similar name

9 that you are aware of or is there just one single person with that first

10 name and last name?

11 A. There is no other person Saban [as interpreted] Seric the son of

12 Hasan was my student, a salesman. His father was an acquaintance of mine

13 we knew each other very well and that is the only Hasan Seric in Samac.

14 Q. Is the name Saban or Sabah?

15 A. Sabah.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Correction Sabah.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. We've heard --

19 MR. LAZAREVIC: Just a correction there is an H on the end.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The witness said clearly Sabah.

21 Q. Let me ask you this first, was it possible to take somebody from

22 Batkovic to an exchange who was not on the list and for whom approval had

23 not been obtained, was it possible to do that, to take somebody out of

24 Batkovic under these conditions?

25 A. If the approval for the exchange was given by the Main Staff, in

Page 15464

1 that case, nobody would overrule that, nobody even tried to do that. As

2 we will see later, the approval of the Main Staff was requested for all

3 exchanges and this was done by the military commissions, they were the

4 ones who asked for approval as did the judicial organs that were involved

5 in investigations. So the approval was necessary and nobody tried to

6 position themselves above the Main Staff and overrule their decision nor

7 did the first Bosnia or 1st Krajina Corps.

8 Q. And you mean the Main Staff of the army of Republika Srpska?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you remember whether that man offered you any money, did you

11 ask any money from him or from anyone else in Batkovic?

12 A. Never. I never asked for any money from anybody, nor did I ever

13 take any money from anybody. All of them knew me quite well and they

14 wouldn't dare do that, I'm sure of it.

15 Q. Was there something peculiar on that occasion when they were

16 taken from Batkovic in December of 1992 to the exchange site, what

17 happened in Samac?

18 A. That was the exchange described here by one of the witnesses. I

19 don't know whether that was a protected witness.

20 Q. Yes. Yes, it was a protected witness, but Their Honours will

21 remember that witness?

22 A. All right. It was quite cold then and I didn't travel in my own

23 car then to Batkovic whereas previously I always did. I travelled on the

24 bus on that occasion, the bus was quite good, so I was on the bus and

25 when we took over the prisoners there, the situation was usually such

Page 15465

1 that I would have a list and the same list was in the hands of the warden

2 of the prison in Batkovic.

3 So I would go to his office and then he would send one of the men

4 working in security there or his deputy to go out and call the names of

5 those people and they would usually line up in front of his office. There

6 was a window there and I could see them through the window lining up in

7 front of the office.

8 When the procedure was over, I would go out and I would say

9 good-bye to them and they would enter the bus or I would greet them and

10 then they would enter the bus and I would enter the bus as well. Since

11 this is quite far, about 100 kilometres, the bus doesn't go all that fast

12 so we spent a lot of time together. There was all kinds of talk and one

13 of the detainees who was closest to me and I was sitting in the front seat

14 said, is it possible for him to get glasses from his home and also some

15 underwear so that he could change, a change of clothes. I said that that

16 would not be a problem that we would manage to do that somehow and then

17 on the road to Samac I thought about how to do this and when we arrived

18 in front of the pensioner's hall, there were about -- it was about 9.00

19 or 10.00 at night so it was around that time approximately and I suddenly

20 said to all of them, "If anybody has anywhere to spend the night, can they

21 put their hands up." And about 20 of them put their hands up, raised

22 their hands and I told them, "Go, spend the night, have a bath, and

23 tomorrow, come to the school centre from where we will continue on our

24 way."

25 The policeman who was in the escort was surprised and also the

Page 15466

1 people were surprised and perhaps I, myself, was also surprised. He

2 complained a little bit about what the boss would say to me and in order

3 to calm him down, and to take the responsibility off him, I told him,

4 "Tell the boss that this was my decision." I didn't consult him. I

5 wanted him to say that in order to protect the police officer so I asked

6 the policeman and the rest of the people who remained on the bus, there

7 were about 7 or 8 of them, I think, but not too many remained, I asked

8 the staff to take them to the school centre because a classroom was

9 prepared for them. It had been heated so that they could spend the night

10 in that classroom.

11 He was a little angry, I don't know, he didn't feel comfortable

12 but he said, "Very well, I will tell the boss that this is your order." I

13 said, "You just tell the boss," and that's how it was.

14 Q. He drove them to the school centre?

15 A. And the next day we were all gathered together when it was time to

16 go.

17 Q. Did Mr. Todorovic mind this just like some other things?

18 A. His boss was Mr. Todorovic and he wasn't happy about it. He would

19 often tell me as a sort of remark about such acts.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

21 document D75/3.

22 Q. What you said a little while ago about who gave approval and who

23 decided about who could and who could not go from Batkovic, please look at

24 this document and just give me your comment about it.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic, can you just repeat the number of the

Page 15467

1 document?

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] D75/3 ter.

3 A. I think that this document, besides the fact that it speaks in

4 its first part about the way, and here it says, "We were granted

5 abolition" and you know better than I do what that is, we were granted

6 abolition and that's what approximate states in line two and we are

7 immediately passing it on. But what is specific about this document is

8 actually -- I would like to say another thing about it. These two

9 people, Drljacic, Sefo, son of Avdo, and Drljacic, Muharem they are both

10 sons of Avdo Kule. This is what they called him. And the kiosk that we

11 indicated before, you probably remember, they had a grocery store there

12 when I was explaining near my house. They had a grocery store and we were

13 very good acquaintances and as you know they were both in Batkovic and the

14 next person you can see that this was a major exchange because under

15 number 134, there is Kemal Bobic son of Saliha, that's a witness who was

16 here. They were planned to be exchanged on the date that is stated up

17 here on the document; however, the military authorities decided to send

18 some other people instead of them and that is what it states here that

19 they should be taken off the list and that instead of them, these other

20 people should be placed on the list.

21 So I would have been very happy if those people had gone because

22 I didn't know these other people but this is how it happened. So this is

23 why these people remained in prison longer than they were supposed to.

24 This was a decision by the military authorities and we acted in accordance

25 with it so my people that I knew were taken from the list and other people

Page 15468

1 were placed on the list instead of them.

2 Q. Well, Witness Grujicic will probably testify about that because

3 he was the one who actually compiled this document.

4 The next document --

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please just for the sake of

7 clarity regarding this document I have a note on my exhibit that the word

8 "abolition" was substituted for the word "pardon" and I have a memory

9 that as I stand here on my feet I haven't checked the transcript

10 obviously, but my memory tells me that that's in fact what happened. It's

11 in the first three lines of the document. I wonder if Defence counsel can

12 shed any light on that concern of mine. I know that the translation, the

13 official translation uses the word "the receipt of abolition" but "pardon"

14 was used. It may or may not be important, I don't know, but that's what

15 my note on the document says and it's also what my memory tells me so I

16 don't know if Defence counsel think it's a matter worth clarifying or if

17 indeed the Chamber does.

18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I cannot now just say it off the top

19 of my head but I think this was discussed during the testimony of Witness

20 Kemal Bobic because that was when this document was introduced. I know

21 the original uses the word "abolition" as read by Mr. Tadic so we will

22 check this so that we don't waste time now and then I will inform the

23 Prosecution about it.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well.

Page 15469

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown please

2 document with the internal marking PDB 75/3. I just want to cover quickly

3 an exchange which hasn't been discussed so far, this is the exchange on

4 the 7th of January, 1993 on the orthodox Christmas.

5 Could the witness also then be shown document PDB 76/3 at the same

6 time.

7 Q. Could you please look at this document?

8 A. The document has this date at the top, the 7th of January, 1993

9 and it's a list of people who were exchanged then. I wanted to comment

10 this bottom part of the list. As you can see, under number 31, is Safet

11 Izetbegovic. Safet Izetbegovic is the brother of Izo Izetbegovic who was

12 a witness here. This is his brother. He's a little bit older than Izo

13 and I knew him just as well as I knew Izo. During the war he was quite

14 sick. He had to go for dialysis and his wife requested, if possible, that

15 he leaves Samac and goes somewhere where he would be more assured of

16 getting dialysis but I said that I wasn't sure that she had to obtain a

17 document from Croatia that somebody was willing to take him in there and

18 then at the first opportunity, he would be able to leave. So she managed

19 to get, and I remember this very well, a paper from Hrovine [phoen] about

20 him crossing over into Croatia and then Mr. Izetbegovic left. He went to

21 Hrovine, he stayed there for a short while and after that he went to

22 Sweden.

23 Q. And this other list, another list with the same date is actually

24 a list of the persons who came on that occasion?

25 A. Yes, this is the other list. It ends with number 30, just like

Page 15470

1 the first one, while the other four persons were just added on to that

2 first list. At the top it's also the same date, the 7th of January. This

3 is a list of Serbs. These are Serbs who came at that time. You will see

4 that Dragan Tadic, the son of Pero is written here, the person about whom

5 I said that yesterday, he was requested to come there was a request for

6 him from Modrica, if you remember.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could these two documents be given

9 exhibit numbers please, if there is no objection.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: No objection, if Your Honours please, but they

11 have to be carefully identified, they are both dated the 7th of January.

12 THE REGISTRAR: The document entitled list of persons for

13 exchange on 7th of January 1993 Dragalic will be Exhibit D161/3 and ter

14 for the B/C/S.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Is this the one bearing the number PDB 75/3?

16 THE REGISTRAR: That is correct, PDB 75/3 will be Exhibit D161/3

17 and ter for the B/C/S.

18 The internal document PDB 76/3 entitled list of persons who came

19 to be exchanged on 7th of January, 1993 in Dragalic will be treated as

20 Exhibit D162/3 and ter for the B/C/S.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

22 document D34/3? Correction, D134/3.

23 Q. Mr. Tadic, what happened, you already mentioned that yesterday,

24 but could you please give us a few details, according to your knowledge,

25 what happened to the detained Serbs in the municipality of Odzak after

Page 15471

1 the corridor was broken through. You said that they were first

2 transferred to Bosanski Brod and Slavonski Brod but tell us, do you know

3 what happened to these people later? Well, could you tell us about that

4 and then I will show you another document?

5 A. After Brod was taken by the 1st Krajina Corps and this happened

6 in early October, the prisoners who were in Bosanski Brod, just as I

7 said, at the high school centre and the Tulek company, these were not only

8 prisoners from Samac, they were also prisoners from the neighbouring

9 areas Doboj, Derventa, Brod, so they were all transferred to the Republic

10 of Croatia to Slavonski Brod.

11 They were in some rowing club, that's where they were placed on

12 the premises of the rowing club near the Sava and they were kept there for

13 a short while and then after that, a number of them were transferred to

14 Orasje and they were in the Donja Mahala, this is a small place near

15 Orasje and some of them were in the school centre in Orasje.

16 Q. Could you please look at this document?

17 A. I have to finish what I started.

18 Q. Yes, yes.

19 A. A number of those prisoners were transferred to other prisons in

20 the Republic of Croatia. I monitored these people, in a way. I was

21 tracking their movements because I received some information that they

22 were in a certain location. The first information came via a television

23 programme on TV Novi Sad where two prisoners were shown who were detained

24 in Croatia. They were from Eastern Croatia, from that area. They were

25 from an area close to Sid and talking for the television programme, they

Page 15472

1 said that together with them in Kerestinec close to Zagreb, there was a

2 number of Serbs from Novi Grad, some place of that name, they didn't know

3 exactly, and then the two of them mentioned a couple of names, nicknames

4 of those people and after that, I got in touch with them and asked them

5 to give me some detailed information and that is how we got to know. We

6 found out that there were about 10 of these people from Novi Grad in

7 Kerestinec.

8 And this document actually contains a list of those people who are

9 actually on a longer list but the list contains those people that I was

10 taking care of. I realise that the list here is much longer, but the

11 people from Novi Grad are Krsic --

12 Q. Could you please tell us the number?

13 A. Number 25, Krsic, Bozidar Krsic, son of Pero. He was actually

14 wounded and lost a leg. Mihaljo Keric, son of Jovan, under number 21;

15 under number 13, Ljubomir Dzuric, son of Bogdan; Oliver Danilovic son of

16 Simo; Zlatko Borejevic, son of Ilija, and not to look for any more, there

17 are about 10 of them here.

18 Q. Just tell me what we are interested in in these proceedings are

19 the following: They had obviously been in the Republic of Croatia. Who

20 negotiated on behalf of the Croatian authorities; do you know their names

21 and who was authorised to release these people from Croatia? Who was the

22 negotiator in view of the fact that these were prisoners?

23 A. On the Croatian side, that is the side of the Croatian state, the

24 negotiator was Ivan Grujic and to this day, he is still the president of

25 the commission. Now he is a colonel by rank. Apart from him, he have

Page 15473

1 already mentioned Mr. Marko Milos, who at that time worked with me and

2 still does and I often see them on television as taking part in certain

3 activities and there was another man representing the Republic of Croatia

4 his name is Anto Kujic and he is now retired so he's not active anymore.

5 Q. And who was authorised to negotiate on behalf of the authorities

6 of Republika Srpska?

7 A. For the most part, it was a military commission, but as I knew

8 these people, I often exerted pressure on Mr. Grujic to tell us where

9 they were, what was happening to them, and this refers only to people

10 from Novi Grad. I didn't do anything about the others because it was the

11 military commission of the 1st Krajina Corps that was in charge of that.

12 Q. Very well. We will now talk about one specific exchange and I

13 ask that the witness be shown document D35/3 and document PDB 85/3.

14 A. While we are waiting for the documents, it's interesting to

15 mention the fate of one of these people, his name was Lesic, Dragomir

16 Lesic, son of Ilija.

17 Q. Yes I was about to ask you about that?

18 A. There were two brothers, Dragutin and Dragomir, one of them died

19 in Kerestinec, in Zagreb. Other people in Zagreb cremated the body. I

20 insisted and kept asking Grujic what had happened to this person. On one

21 occasion in Novska, in Jordan Battalion, he called me to one side and told

22 me what had happened. He said that they didn't have any more burial sites

23 in Zagreb and that they were cremating our prisoners and their own

24 prisoners as well or rather their own people. He explained that to me. I

25 told him that this was not our custom and he wanted to hand the urn over

Page 15474

1 to the commission. I told him well, this was not our custom and I would

2 have to see with his parents and later on, I met his father and his

3 brother Pero who had been exchanged earlier and they said well, let them

4 bring the urn over and that's how the urn arrived and they buried it in

5 the cemetery.

6 Q. Thank you. The witness said that he had received information that

7 they were cremating Serbian prisoners; is that what you said?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Because there was no room at the cemetery?

10 A. That's what he said to me.

11 Q. This is the exchange of the 29th of January, 1993 and according

12 to this list, under number 29, Witness Nusret Hadzijusufovic was exchanged

13 and he spoke about this but what I want to know is what made this exchange

14 different from others?

15 A. While this is on the monitor I would like to say that under number

16 18, this is what we talked about, Mijo Radic also known as Brada, turned

17 back also Nusret Hadzijusufovic known as Pilja came back and so did some

18 others. This is not so important now but what I want to say is that this

19 exchange was special because neither before nor after this was there ever

20 an exchange similar to this one. We arrived quite late, it was wintertime

21 and we got to Sid at about 4.00 p.m., the exchange took place in Lipovac.

22 We arrived in Sid and an officer came out to meet us. He was an officer

23 of the Russian army because the Russian Battalion was stationed there and

24 he said that only 8 negotiators could accompany him to a checkpoint to

25 negotiate with the Croats.

Page 15475

1 It's interesting to note that there were very many people who had

2 come because they wanted to know whether their people wanted to come

3 over. These were people from Pelagicevo, Orasje, Brkco, and he said only

4 8 of you, no more. And then 8 of us went with him and 8 people came from

5 the Croatian side. And he said to us, you have ten minutes to reach an

6 agreement. We were in a tent which was about 200 metres away or rather

7 there was a tent about 200 metres away from the place where we were

8 standing and it was the same distance away from the Croatian side and we

9 couldn't say much in ten minutes we just said is everything all right is

10 everything according to the lists. Yes, yes, and that's all that

11 happened.

12 And then he sent a guard to take us back and they said that only

13 8 detainees could go to that spot without us. So we didn't see what they

14 did there, whether they said anything and I said, "Well, there are a lot

15 of people here so when will this end?" And he said, "No, 8 by 8." So 8

16 people got out of the us and two soldiers, one in front and one behind

17 took them there and we didn't know what was going on there and then he

18 brought -- they brought 8 people who had crossed over from the other side.

19 Q. Did these 8 people tell you that they had declared in front of

20 the Russian Battalion whether they wanted to cross over?

21 A. I didn't ask them but we were in a panic because a certain number

22 of people who had come with me wanted to go back, but we could see that

23 no one was saying anything on the other side so we got into a panic, we

24 didn't know what to do and I said well if you don't want to go over, just

25 say so right here and then go back. So when that short line of fate

Page 15476

1 people arrived they said we don't want to go but the Russians weren't

2 asking anything they said we don't want to go and they left the line. And

3 then we completed the line with one or two other people --

4 Q. Just slow down a little, please.

5 A. So the procedure was not logical that the UN soldiers were

6 implementing. And that's how it all ended, a certain number of people

7 stayed behind. They said that in that short line up and stepped out, but

8 had the situation been normal, a lot more people might have crossed over.

9 Q. Could you please slow down, Mr. Tadic, for the interpreters to

10 avoid confusion.

11 Would you please look at the second document, the people listed at

12 the end where it says Bijeljina, Bijeljina, Bijeljina, what is

13 characteristic of these people who arrived from the exchange?

14 A. Towards the end of 1992, there was the 2nd Sember Brigade in which

15 there were quite a few Muslims and in the Orasje area, 11 of them were

16 taken prisoner, I'm not counting them now but these 11 on the list here.

17 Q. Yes, but Mr. Tadic, please listen to my questions. Who took them

18 prisoner?

19 A. The HVO, the Croatian Defence Council from Orasje took them

20 prisoner so there were 11 of them from numbers 54 onward. These were

21 members of the army of Republika Srpska, the 2nd Sember Brigade and they

22 were taken prisoner in late 1992 and it will probably transpire later when

23 Mr. Grujicic testifies that he asked for approval from the Main Staff to

24 have these people exchanged or to seek these people and they then crossed

25 over to the Republika Srpska side and 11 Muslims who wanted to cross over

Page 15477

1 to the HVO side left.

2 Q. When you say Grujicic asked for approval to exchange them you

3 mean he asked for approval for them to come over?

4 A. Yes, he asked for approval for them to come over, to cross over

5 to our area and return to their units and some of these people have

6 already testified before this Tribunal in favour of some accused.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Very well. I ask that this second

8 document marked PDB 85/3 that it be given an exhibit number.

9 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D163/3 and ter for the

10 B/C/S.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. We will now talk about the exchange in June. I ask that the

13 witness be shown document D13/3, but before this, I will ask you a general

14 question. Did you, Mr. Tadic, have -- participate in any way in the

15 exchange you mentioned in Nemetin and did the Samac commission play any

16 part in the exchange organised in February by Mr. Krusnare [phoen] or

17 rather the French humanitarian organisations mentioned in these

18 proceedings and did you, as the Samac commission play any part in the

19 exchange of persons who were exchanged in Sarajevo in 1994 and whose

20 testimony we heard here?

21 A. There was an exchange in Nemetin on the 14th of August 1992. It

22 was agreed upon between the governments of the then Yugoslavia and

23 Croatia. The negotiator or rather the person who decided on the Yugoslav

24 side was Milan Panic who was then the prime minister. Then there was a

25 large exchange in which over 1.000 people were exchanged from both sides.

Page 15478

1 This was organised over there and we had no influence or cooperation in

2 that respect, but we were informed by the commission from Belgrade that a

3 number of detainees from our list then arrived. I mentioned Bozic, I

4 think his first name was Rajko who was wounded on the 19th of April, 1992

5 when Truman was killed.

6 Q. Without details, please just answer my question. I know you would

7 like to talk about it but we have to focus on what is important in these

8 proceedings. So I'm interested in whether you as the Samac commission

9 participated in any way in these three exchanges?

10 A. Well, I've already explained about the first exchange, it's

11 important to mention that Milan Djoko Rakic arrived, the one who was taken

12 prisoner on the 9th of May [as interpreted], that's the extent of our

13 involvement in that exchange.

14 Q. What about the exchange in February organized by the French

15 humanitarian organisation?

16 A. We had no part in that. We learned only later from the army,

17 from the 1st Krajina Corps that Mr. Krusnare took a certain number of

18 detainees from Batkovic and this list included three people from Samac.

19 Q. Including two protected witnesses whose name we will not mention

20 and the exchanges mentioned by witnesses in Sarajevo in 1994, did you

21 play any part in that?

22 A. The exchange in 1994, we played no part in that either. We had

23 no influence on that exchange. We were simply informed that a certain

24 number of people from Samac were involved in the exchange. There was

25 also another large exchange mentioned here and that was in Sibosnica

Page 15479

1 where one of the protected witnesses in these proceedings was also

2 exchanged about 800 detainees were exchanged on that occasion from both

3 sides in a place called Sibosnica near Ugljevik and one of our witnesses

4 was exchanged there.

5 We played no part in that exchange.

6 Q. Would you now look at the document. We will talk about an

7 exchange which is important for us and it took place in June 1993 in

8 Dragalic.

9 Tell us whether you remember what happened on that occasion, what

10 happened before the exchange, and during the exchange?

11 A. This document shows quite clearly what the method was, that this

12 was done by military commissions. I would just like to say something

13 about the last part of the document.

14 Q. Just a moment, please, Mr. Tadic. A correction to the transcript,

15 page 30, line 3, you said that Milan Rakic was taken prisoner on the 19th

16 of April, 1992?

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 Q. It's not in the transcript. Please continue.

19 A. In the end it says here we ask the commission of the Main Staff

20 of the army of Republika Srpska up to now I've been mentioning the Main

21 Staff. Now we can see that they had a commission of their own. I

22 haven't come across this before, but it is they who are being addressed

23 and asked to do something.

24 As for the people on this list, you can see that there are

25 witnesses of ours here under number 7 and under number 11, that's what

Page 15480

1 matters. The others are not so important. Number 11 is Mr. Salkic,

2 Ibrahim Salkic who, on that occasion, was exchanged. It just so happened

3 that I went to fetch these people in Batkovic and when I wrote them back,

4 they spent the night in Samac.

5 The following day, the bus left and Mr. Vasovic was probably the

6 one who called out their names, they entered the bus and they started out

7 towards Dragalic. The procedure was as usual, I was driving in my own

8 car and there were no problems with the checkpoints.

9 In the afternoon hours, perhaps 1.00 or 2.00 p.m., we arrived at

10 the checkpoint in Dragalic where the gas station was. Usually, our bus

11 would stop at the first part of the checkpoint whereas the bus coming

12 from Croatia would halt at the other side of the checkpoint, the bus from

13 Croatia bringing Serbs from Croatia. Anto Kujic, with whom I cooperated

14 for many years and with whom I was on good terms, came up to me and asked

15 me whether he could go to the bus to see his prisoners. I said no problem

16 and I escorted him to the bus. There was just the driver on the bus,

17 nobody else and I asked the bus driver to open the door and we entered the

18 bus.

19 He and I greeted them. I did it in my way and he did it in his

20 way and he asked who is Boris Sarcevic who is number two on this list.

21 These first two people here are members of the army of Croatia. This

22 young man sitting behind the driver said, "I am the one." And he tried

23 to pat him on his cheek and the man just jerked away. I noticed that but

24 I didn't know what was going on. I didn't want to be present while they

25 had a conversation. I simply didn't want to bother them so I left the

Page 15481

1 bus and waited for him outside.

2 He remained in the bus -- on the bus for a few minutes and then

3 he came out and said to me, "Brko [Realtime transcript read in error

4 "Brcko"], what's going on with these people?" I said, "I don't know what

5 do you mean?" He said they had complained to him that they had been

6 abused, mistreated the previous night on their way there. I said to him,

7 I don't know anything about that but let me check with the commission and

8 see what we could do about it.

9 When that procedure was completed, and when the people from this

10 list started moving in a column, I walked alongside Salkic.

11 Q. Just a minute, please. On page 32, line 19 the witness said, "he

12 said to me Brko, what's going on with these people?" I'm just making a

13 correction to the transcript because it says Brkco in the transcript?

14 A. Yes and the man addressing me was Anto Kujic.

15 Q. So please continue.

16 A. Yes, I was walking with a group of people, Salkic was included in

17 it and he lifted up his shirt and said, "Look what Stiv had done to me."

18 I asked him whether he wanted to tell my boss about it, whether he would

19 want to repeat it to him and he said he would. And then I called

20 Mr. Grujicic, I believe I called him, and told him to tell it to

21 Mr. Grujicic. And then he said that that night, in Samac, he was beaten

22 by Mr. Todorovic which made Grujicic very angry. He said he would do

23 something about it. And this is how we parted.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now pause, please. I would

25 like to ask the technical booth to start the tape for us, Exhibit 103/3

Page 15482

1 depicting exchange in Dragalic. We will see a brief excerpt from the

2 tape. The Trial Chamber has the transcript of the tape in front of it

3 but we are interested in just one single sentence and the interpreters

4 will translate that for us. Please don't make any comments let us just

5 hear what is said here.

6 [Videotape played]

7 MR. LUKIC: Stop here.

8 A. This man talking here is Ibrahim Salkic, he mentioned ribs, he

9 said should I show my ribs and he had shown his ribs just a minute prior

10 to this to me.

11 Q. What the witness said was not recorded. I don't know if the

12 interpreters were able to follow but the witness said don't tape the plum

13 I have on my eye showing -- pointing to his left eye. [In English] If

14 you just a little bit go back for a --

15 A. This is fine now.

16 Q. [Interpretation] All right. Could you please describe the man?

17 A. This is Ibrahim Salkic.

18 Q. What is he wearing?

19 A. I think he's wearing a blue T-shirt. I think it's a blue T-shirt

20 and his eyeglasses are hanging on it, I believe sunglasses.

21 Q. To his left is a woman in red and the plum he mentioned meaning

22 the bruise is on his left eye, and it is discernible if one takes a closer

23 look.

24 MR. LUKIC: Fast forward. We can go faster now.

25 [Videotape played]

Page 15483

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps it would be best to have a

2 break here. Perhaps we could take our break and then show some -- a

3 brief excerpt after the break.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: We will take our break and continue at 11.00.

5 --- Break taken at 10.30 a.m.

6 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could the technical booth continue.

9 During the break I prepared another brief excerpt from the footage.

10 Q. While the footage is running, you can make comments, Mr. Tadic.

11 [Videotape played]

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You can hear the voice of Grujicic.

13 These are the Serbs that had come from the opposite side.

14 MR. LUKIC: [Microphone not activated] Can we stop the tape? Just

15 a little bit back. Stop here. No. Little bit further.

16 Q. [Interpretation] Could you please tell us who is this? Who is

17 holding the child in his arms?

18 A. To the right, this large man is Mr. Grujicic and to the left is --

19 you can see me holding a child who was exchanged.

20 This woman had two children and I helped her carry one of them.

21 Q. What is the ethnicity of these people whose child you were

22 holding, the people coming out now?

23 A. The people coming out of the bus, this is the bus that had come

24 from Samac so the people on the bus were Croats and Muslims.

25 Q. [In English] A little bit back. Here, thanks, stop here.

Page 15484

1 [Interpretation] Can you comment this now? We see a woman holding papers

2 in her hands.

3 A. This is Biljana Culum, if I'm not mistaken.

4 Q. What was her job there?

5 A. She was secretary of the military commission. She had a law

6 degree and she was making records, registering something.

7 These are the Serbs. This is a man from Novi Grad, Ljubo

8 Kuresevic. They are now going from the bus that had brought them there

9 and moving into our bus that had come from Samac. They are mentioning the

10 name of Ljubo.

11 Q. Can you tell us, please, were journalist teams, were

12 photographers, usually there to report on these exchanges?

13 A. You can see Salkic once again walking around.

14 Q. [In English] We are finished with the film. [Interpretation] Now

15 tell me please, we saw cameramen there, were journalists and photographers

16 frequently present at exchange sites, was it reported on in the media?

17 A. It was quite often especially on the opposite side. There were

18 journalists there present frequently. There was a journalist from

19 Gradiska I can't remember his name but since this was quite close for him

20 he would frequently attend, exchanges, take statements and publish them

21 where needed.

22 I remember one of the exchanges were described yesterday, when we

23 mentioned Branko Mikanovic. I remember him giving an extensive interview

24 in Gradiska when we got to that tavern, he gave an interview to that

25 journalist.

Page 15485

1 Q. Now, let us go back to what we discussed before the video film. Do

2 you remember what measures Grujicic had taken upon learning that Ibrahim

3 Salkic and others had been beaten?

4 A. Before we get to that, let me tell you something else. Salkic

5 mentioned a man from Bijeljina. However people from Bijeljina never once

6 came to the exchange, nor did they have interest in it. He mentioned a

7 warden from Bijeljina and his task was to get the papers to make records

8 and that was all. It was 350 kilometres away for him so he never

9 attended. He probably thought that it was some of the people present

10 there, because a number of people in the commissions joined the

11 discussion.

12 Q. What discussion do you mean?

13 A. Discussion concerning the information he provided to me first and

14 then to Grujicic. Grujicic later, on his return to Banja Luka, wrote that

15 report that we had the opportunity to see here.

16 Q. No, not yet, we haven't.

17 A. Oh, the communication he sent to Mr. Todorovic. This was quite

18 moderate. I don't know his reasons, but he didn't wish to directly

19 mention Mr. Todorovic, but he just wanted to prevent this from happening.

20 I tried to draw the attention of Mr. Todorovic to that, and I tried in a

21 way to say that this would provide a pretext for those on the other side

22 to behave in the same manner. So if some people come from our side, who

23 are beaten, then we could expect that to happen on the other side as

24 well. And after this particular exchange, a man was badly treated in

25 Orasje. His name was Vujadin Cecavac. I suppose that in a certain way,

Page 15486

1 although he wasn't beaten by Salkic or anybody from this group, somebody

2 else took steps quote unquote, so that this would be done to this poor

3 Cecavac. He was even crucified and his hands were pierced.

4 Q. And could you please tell me after this, did you have any problems

5 with Todorovic? We already talked about your problems with the Special

6 Forces and we mentioned some of your conflicts with Todorovic. Did

7 anything else happen specifically after this exchange regarding your

8 relationship with Mr. Todorovic?

9 A. My relationship with Mr. Todorovic was always tense. Let me put

10 it that way, and I mostly avoided him. I mean, I never entered into a

11 specific exchange with him of words, and on one occasion, I remember well,

12 after a shelling of Samac, which was quite intense, this was in late 1992,

13 a lot of shells were dropped and there was a lot of damage, and he called

14 me by telephone around 4.00 p.m. and asked me if I had been in town. I

15 said that I wasn't. He asked if I'd seen anything. I said I hadn't. He

16 said that the streets were blocked, there was a lot of damage, and that it

17 would be essential to clear this up as soon as possible. I said that the

18 shelling hadn't stopped yet, there were no indications of that yet, and it

19 was already late, so that everything would be cleaned up tomorrow because

20 we didn't know whether shelling would stop or not. He said this has to be

21 done now and he put the phone down.

22 I didn't act in accordance with that order of his because I wasn't

23 really in charge of that any more but I didn't tell him that. And then

24 sometime in the evening, around 9.00 p.m., four policemen came all young

25 men who I knew well and they said to me, they called me Cika Brko, they

Page 15487

1 said Cika Brko, the chief said we are to bring you in. I laughed and I

2 said, well, all right, I'll go and take a jacket or something. So please

3 wait for me. And they allowed me to do that. I went into the house, I

4 took my jacket and I told my wife I'm going to the SUP and I'll be back

5 soon. I didn't want to tell you any -- I didn't want to tell her anything

6 more.

7 The SUP was in the department store at the time. They brought me

8 to the department store. I entered into an office, and that's where I

9 encountered the already-mentioned Stoko. He was a deputy of the commander

10 or something like that. And another man, his name was Radulovic, he's a

11 former student of mine, and they looked at me and said the chief said that

12 I was to be brought in, and they told me to sit down. I said where is the

13 chief? And they said they don't know. When will he come? They said they

14 don't know that either.

15 So around midnight, there was a noise, you could see Stiv coming,

16 he was drunk, and his hangers on were with him. He barged in and he told

17 the two of those, didn't I tell you where to put him, meaning me, where

18 they were supposed to put me. I suppose he meant the cells, in the SUP,

19 or something like that. And I told him Stivo, what's the matter with

20 you? And so there was a conversation and finally, I told him that he has

21 his own line that he follows and his police and I as the chief of the TO

22 headquarters have my own line [as interpreted]. I have nothing to do with

23 him and he has nothing to do with me. He's responsible to his superiors

24 and I am responsible to mine and if necessary I'll bear responsibility in

25 that sense. And then at the end I told him I have not been the chief of

Page 15488

1 the staff for a year. It wasn't a full year but that's what I told him.

2 I told him I haven't been the head of the staff for a year. And you have

3 nothing to do with me.

4 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me Mr. Lukic. Just for clarity, it says

5 here in the English translation, on line 7 of page 39, that Mr. Tadic was

6 chief of the TO headquarters. I don't believe that that's correct. So

7 maybe you could just straighten that out for the transcript.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. You said at the time that at the time you were not the chief of

10 the headquarters of the civilian protection?

11 A. Yes, the staff of the civilian protection. I told him that I

12 hadn't been a chief for a year already although it was actually more six

13 months. And he looked at me in a questioning way and said and who is it?

14 And I said Perica Krstanic.

15 Q. Just one moment, please, could you slow down and now that you have

16 said this you mentioned that this was at the end of 1992?

17 A. No. It was at the end of 1993. I said 1993. Simply without any

18 comment, he turned around and left. Stevan Todorovic turned around and

19 left. So that the three of us stayed there and I looked at them and they

20 said to me, go home. So I went home.

21 Q. Because of the name in the transcript, what was the name of the

22 chief of the civil protection headquarters at the time?

23 A. The chief of the staff was Perica Krstanovic and that is what it

24 states here, Krstanovic --

25 Q. Yes, that is why we asked for the correction. Could the witness

Page 15489

1 now please be shown document D102/3?

2 I will repeat for the transcript. The name, Perica, Krstanovic.

3 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Mr. Lukic, what is the number of the document

4 because the number in the transcript, there is a question mark at the end

5 of it. Is it D102/3?

6 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE LINDHOLM: Thank you.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. A few questions, Mr. Tadic, about your cooperation with the Muslim

10 exchange commission or the commission for the exchange of the federation

11 of the B and H? We had testimony about this from Mr. Maslic. So could

12 you please tell us who did you cooperate with from that commission, you as

13 representatives of the Samac commission? And if you can also tell us

14 something about this specific document?

15 A. On the Muslim side, there was a commission of the Tuzla Corps. I

16 don't know which corps was that but its headquarters were in Tuzla, and

17 along with the commission, there were always representatives of the -- of

18 surrounding area, Lukavac, Banovici, Gracanica, Gradacac and so on. These

19 towns that were in that region. We most often cooperated with those

20 places. The President of that commission, of the Muslim part of the

21 commission, was Marko Duspara for a while, a lawyer from Tuzla. I think

22 that he's still doing the same work. Then there was Sefik Mujcinovic, he

23 is now the public prosecutor of the Tuzla canton. Since Gradacac was the

24 closest to us, we made agreements with them most often, and the

25 commissions were in contact with each other through Gradacac because it's

Page 15490

1 closest to the line of separation near Modrica and that's where the

2 meetings were held.

3 Safet Kikic was there, nicknamed Cire. He's a judge, or a

4 prosecutor, at the Gradacac court, and there was also professor Petar

5 Radic. He's probably retired now because he's more or less my age.

6 Q. In these exchanges, was the principle of operation the same as

7 the -- with the Croatian commission where people would say whether they

8 wanted to go or not? And could you please tell me why many Muslims and

9 we've heard this during former testimonies, did not want to go to that

10 side but they mostly said that they wanted to go to Croatia?

11 A. During the combat operations, the region of Tuzla was in a very

12 difficult situation, economically, because this is not an agricultural

13 area, it's an industrial area and there was a problem with food and there

14 were also other problems, and because of this, and because it was an area

15 which was affected by war, nobody wanted to go from one place where war

16 was going on to another place where war was going on. So it wouldn't

17 really do much for them to go from one such place to another. And that is

18 why the exchange with the Muslim side wasn't very extensive but there were

19 frequent contacts regarding individual cases which were resolved by these

20 commissions and also they dealt with the large number of soldiers who were

21 arrested on one side or the other side.

22 Q. Who negotiated about the soldiers?

23 A. The military commission and we were there possibly to try to

24 resolve any of our problems that would crop up.

25 Q. Could you please look at this document and then comment on it? I

Page 15491

1 think something on page 2.

2 A. This document is -- I'm very familiar with it. There are many

3 people here that I know personally. On page 1, there is under number 7

4 Mustafa Harcinovic. We called him Mujaga. He's a friend of mine. I've

5 known him for many years. His son Esef went to school, elementary school

6 with my son. They went to school together for eight years and I knew him

7 very well. During the war his son happened to be in Srebrenik. That's in

8 the Muslim part of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and thinking that he would be

9 able to convince his father to move to Srebrenik he asked to come so that

10 he could talk to him, and I took this friend of mine, Mustafa Harcinovic

11 with me, and then again on page 2, under number 7, it states again that

12 Mustafa Harcinovic stated that he does not want to go to the opposing

13 side. That's what it states. At that time he talked to his son and he

14 told him that he did not wish to cross over to the Srebrenik side, that

15 there was no reason for him to cross over. And so he didn't go to the

16 Muslim part of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

17 Besides this time, he went several times to these conversations --

18 meetings so that he could see his son and talk to him. Esef's mother,

19 Sadeta, also went with me several times to the place where we met so that

20 she could talk to her son. Perhaps it's of interest to mention another

21 case, Safet Kikic has family in Samac. One of his cousins or relatives,

22 Kikic's uncle, had a wife who had to go for dialysis, and Kikic requested

23 that they come over to the Muslim side and I also brought his uncle so

24 that he could talk to him, and when the uncle said that Ferida was going

25 for dialysis, he was told that that was something that they could not

Page 15492

1 provide for him. So he did not end up going and remained in Samac

2 throughout the war.

3 Q. Could you please tell us who this is?

4 A. Yes. This is Avdo Arslanovic.

5 Q. Thank you we have finished with this document. Could the witness

6 please be shown document PDB 81/3? And while we are getting the document,

7 another question relating to this matter: Was it ever the case that

8 several people were asked several times if they wanted to cross over to

9 the other side?

10 A. Stating whether they wanted to or did not want to go to the other

11 side was not up to the commission. Insisting for them to be brought to

12 the separation line was on the part of those who asked for them. This was

13 done by their relatives, by their families, and the families would never

14 believe that somebody did not want to go to the other side. It was

15 incomprehensible to them that somebody did not want to go over to the

16 other side. So then after a period of time, on the insistence of the

17 families on one side, we had to oblige and bring the people to the line so

18 that they could say dear brother or dear father I do not wish to go over

19 to the other side, and only then were they satisfied, were these

20 formalities satisfied.

21 Q. Could you please look at this document in front of you?

22 A. This happened on the Serb side and on the other side also. The

23 same thing.

24 Q. Please comment briefly on this document?

25 A. This is one of these lists. It's a list of the people sought

Page 15493

1 after by Gracanica. Gracanica is a place between Gradacac and Doboj in

2 the Muslim part of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Under number 10, is Jadranko

3 Suljic, son of Ibrahim, who has already been mentioned here. Born in 1956

4 in Samac. Now in prison in Batkovici. That's what it says. That's what

5 they knew, rather what their information was. In other places also they

6 put forward their information as to the whereabouts of the person in

7 question.

8 Q. If they had information that a person was in Batkovic, who would

9 they turn to to check this information?

10 A. Well, for the most part they would turn to the military

11 commission, Grujicic would then ask me or Veljo, whoever happened to be

12 there, whether this person was in Batkovic or not because we knew the

13 people, and we were able to resolve this on the spot. I would say to him,

14 yes, yes, I know that guy is in Batkovic and then we would solve that

15 immediately. We didn't need to go through a whole procedure to check

16 this.

17 Q. I assume you knew this because these were people from Bosanski

18 Samac?

19 A. Yes. I could talk about certain people from Bosanski Samac if I

20 was certain where they were. But there were others for whom I wasn't

21 certain. And then we would have to check. We would have to go to the

22 house, the address, or call the telephone number that was given. There

23 was a method we used to check the whereabouts of a person whom they

24 assumed was in a certain place.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I ask that this document be given an

Page 15494

1 exhibit number and tendered into evidence.


3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me, but there is another

4 detail I wish to mention here. Under number 14, it says Ferid Gopo, born

5 in 1963 in Gracanica, missing on the bridge at Karanovac. So it was

6 assumed that this person went missing in that place. What we had to do

7 then was to check whether he was alive or dead, if he was dead whether his

8 body could be found, so these were notes made by the other side to make

9 our job easier. We gave the same kind of information to them in order to

10 facilitate communication between us. Thank you.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D164/3 and ter for the B/C/S.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. We shall now go to the last exchange, December, 1993.

14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I ask that the witness be shown

15 document D96/3.

16 Q. Tell us, Mr. Tadic, what do you know about this exchange?

17 A. All this information from the end of 1993 boiled down to several

18 basic facts. I was still active in the commission, but I had no office or

19 desk or place to work at. All this was done through the Red Cross and the

20 office of the Red Cross. That's where information was collected, records

21 kept, lists typed out, and from time to time, I would go there and contact

22 them to see what the situation was, what was new and so on.

23 Q. In December, 1993, where were the offices of the Red Cross?

24 A. They were in a building called the social welfare building or

25 something like that, where the social security was as we used to refer to

Page 15495

1 it.

2 Q. So this was no longer the pensioners' club?

3 A. No, no. The pensioners' club was vacated by that time. There

4 were no offices there any more, and the secretary of the local commune, a

5 lady who was the secretary, worked up there too.

6 Q. Were the Red Cross offices ever situated in the municipal assembly

7 building?

8 A. No, nowhere near that building, nor was there any service that

9 worked with the Red Cross that was located in the Samac municipal

10 building.

11 Q. Would you please comment on the person under number 73? And the

12 following numbers?

13 A. The Red Cross continued collecting this information, and it is

14 evident from this that people came and reported. They gave detailed

15 information, such as the address, the house number, telephone number and

16 so on, and they would also give information on the person looking for

17 them. So the person looking for someone would be entered as well with

18 details. For example, under number 8, Almir Udzvalic, the person looking

19 for him is so and so, and there is the telephone number. So that you

20 could even -- I knew a lot of these people. This man, Okanovic [phoen].

21 Q. Would you please comment on page 4? The persons under number 73.

22 A. From 73 onwards, are members of the Bobic family, Ediba, Bedrudin,

23 Amira, and Faruk, Nermina Bobic. Then there is Faruk, Bedrija Arapovic,

24 and Goran, Selma Arapovic. All of them from Samac. And they were all

25 sought by Zekija Celic at Omladinska Street number 18 in Orasje, telephone

Page 15496

1 number 73249.

2 Q. Orasje, as the Chamber knows, was under the control of the

3 Croatian authorities?

4 A. Yes. And in those days, Orasje and Samac had the same area code,

5 which is why the area code is not mentioned here. So these are all the

6 details concerning the search for these persons.

7 Q. Had the Bobics wanted to leave in the direction of the federation

8 at that time, would there have been any problems for them?

9 A. Everything would have been the same except that it would say here

10 that they were sought by someone else from another area. For example,

11 under number 66, you can see that the person seeking these people was from

12 Karlovac. So there were people all over the place looking for people, and

13 those were the places where they were supposed to go.

14 Q. In connection with this December exchange, what do you know about

15 it? I have finished with this document. Were there any negotiations with

16 the other side concerning this exchange and what happened?

17 A. Most of the technical work concerning this exchange and the

18 drawing up of this was done by the Red Cross and Veljo. I went to the

19 negotiations, not I alone but the entire commission, and Mr. Grujicic, as

20 before, conducted the negotiations in Dragalic, and this was sometime in

21 early December. Veljo told me that the people from Zasavica who had been

22 there throughout 1992 and 1993 had finally decided to be reunited with

23 their families because a large number of them were on the other side,

24 their children, parts of their families and so on. And they saw that it

25 was not certain that they would be reunited quickly on this side so that's

Page 15497

1 why they decided to go over to the opposite side, and it was mostly

2 Mr. Maslic who contacted them. I never had any conversations with these

3 people from Zasavica concerning their departure. But I knew most of them

4 and I knew about their movements. I met them. I had opportunities to see

5 them at Mr. Dukevic's when they would come to help with certain things he

6 was doing at his house. So it wasn't so strict that they could not go

7 out.

8 Q. There is testimony in statement number 92, so are you referring to

9 Djordje Dujkovic? And where did he live?

10 A. He lived in Kruskovo Polje. This was perhaps three or four

11 kilometres away from Zasavica.

12 Q. And during the war, you saw people from Zasavica helping him? Did

13 I understand you correctly?

14 A. Yes. Even before the war, they had worked together, done certain

15 things together. There is a custom in our parts to slaughter pigs in the

16 autumn, and other animals, in order to prepare food for the winter.

17 Djordje did a lot of things there and I also was invited there as a guest,

18 and there I found these people from Zasavica, some people called Krajnovic

19 and also some women helping there, and I also, in the autumn of 1993, saw

20 some women helping him to pick plums. There were six or seven women from

21 Zasavica helping to pick the plums there.

22 Q. Very well. Let's now talk about the exchange itself. What

23 happened? Can you tell us when you set out, whether you were part of the

24 escort of these people?

25 A. Well, I wasn't part of the escort, but I went there in my own car,

Page 15498

1 and the bus set out from in front of the pensioners' club, a short routine

2 police control was carried out. This was so to say a mere formality, not

3 the way it used to be at the beginning. This short routine check was

4 completed and then we set out from the pensioners' club, down Edvard

5 Kardelj Street. That's near my house because that was the shortest and

6 the safest route to Zasavica. We didn't have to pass through town and the

7 road was quite straight so we passed by my house and the building number

8 62, which we have already mentioned, and we came to Zasavica.

9 Q. Let me interrupt you for a moment. Does that route go by the

10 Muslim cemetery?

11 A. No. It goes by the Orthodox cemetery and the Jewish cemetery.

12 Q. Please continue.

13 A. We didn't enter the village of Zasavica. The people from Zasavica

14 who wanted to go came out on to the crossroads that we showed yesterday,

15 where the road to Modrica crosses the -- or rather where the Zasavica road

16 branches off, and that's where they were. Of course I knew these people

17 and I talked to them and one of these people approached me and said, "Brko

18 what shall we do? We've got so many things with us and they won't fit on

19 to the bus." Because the people who had set out from Samac had taken up

20 a lot of space. Djordje Dujkovic was there. He had a small truck, and he

21 had come to say goodbye to all his friends. He was there with his truck,

22 and I said to them, well, here is Djordje, let him come along. And then

23 Djordje started making excuses and I said to him, oh, come on Djordje, you

24 will see Juro and the others there. You will see your brother-in-law,

25 because they all knew about the exchange, and all their sons and relatives

Page 15499

1 went to the exchange to meet the people who were supposed to be coming.

2 And in the end, Djordje agreed and they put their things on his truck and

3 he joined the convoy to Gradiska.

4 Q. What happened when you arrived in Gradiska?

5 A. In Gradiska, there were some problems with the police because they

6 had to be persuaded not to take all the stuff out, not to unload it again,

7 but we didn't have any problems about crossing. We were delayed a little

8 while because of the procedure, the lists and so on, so there was a delay

9 of about an hour or an hour and a half. We crossed through all the

10 checkpoints, the Nepalese Battalion checkpoint, the police checkpoint, and

11 then we arrived at the destination which was the petrol pump which was

12 called Sjever meaning north. However, there were no representatives of

13 the Croatian commission there. We waited for quite a long time but they

14 didn't turn up, and then Veljo and Grujicic went to the Nepalese

15 Battalion, which was across the road, and they called some people there,

16 and a representative of the Red Cross from Gradiska arrived, and he asked

17 Grujicic, has all this been agreed on? And Grujicic said yes, it had, and

18 we had come there pursuant to the agreement. Then he asked are there any

19 Muslims here? That's what he said to us who were standing there. And to

20 prevent people saying too much I said well there are a few, just to calm

21 him down, because at that time a war was raging between the Muslims and

22 the Croats throughout central Bosnia, and I don't know whether they had

23 instructions not to receive Muslims or not but at any rate he was

24 satisfied with my reply. When I said that there was just a small number

25 of Muslims, he didn't inspect the list or conduct any further checks. He

Page 15500

1 then said he would try to contact the representatives of the Croatian

2 commission, and that's what happened more or less.

3 Sometime after midnight, it may have been 1.00 a.m., it was

4 December, Marko Milos turned up. He was a representative of the Croatian

5 side of the Republic of Croatia, a representative of the commission of the

6 Republic of Croatia. So it wasn't the representatives of the Orasje part

7 that came, and he apologised to these people. He said, I apologise, there

8 has been a misunderstanding, the people from Orasje, did not inform me on

9 time. And he gave some explanations and he wished the people a Merry

10 Christmas, and then they crossed over to the other side. I think that

11 Djordje had met his --

12 Q. Just an explanation. When you said a representative of the Red

13 Cross of Gradiska arrived and asked whether there were any Muslims there,

14 what Gradiska are you referring to? Was he a representative of the

15 Croatian Red Cross?

16 A. Yes. Of the Republic of Croatia. Gradiska is in the Republic of

17 Croatia and it's the town closest to Dragalic. It's about two or three

18 kilometres away and that's where it was easiest to reach that man, and

19 that man sometimes turned up.

20 Q. We shall now finish with this exchange but I will ask you: You

21 heard testimony by Hajra Drljacic and Ediba Bobic about the exchange

22 so I will ask you did you personally search anyone's belongings,

23 especially Ediba Bobic? You know what she said before this Tribunal.

24 A. I never even attempted to search anyone, let alone searches. On

25 the contrary, I always tried to protect them from that minimal search done

Page 15501

1 by policemen. I always tried to calm the policemen down and tell them

2 that these people had nothing dangerous on them. They only had their own

3 belongings and this is what I always tried to do.

4 Q. Mr. Tadic, did you ask for any money from Ediba Bobic? Did you

5 take any money from her? And my general question that I have put several

6 times to you during your testimony, is, did you ever, while being involved

7 in exchanges, ask for, accept or take any kind of compensation for the

8 exchange? I mean monetary compensation.

9 A. Never from Ediba, I never even saw her during the war, and any

10 kind of money is out of the question. Everything she stated is an obvious

11 fabrication. I never had an office in the municipal building where she

12 allegedly came to see me. I never, ever, had an office in the municipal

13 building. If I ever went there, I only went there because I needed to ask

14 for something. The Red Cross was never housed in the municipal building.

15 I never saw her anywhere. So she could not have given money to me in the

16 street, as she stated here. Nobody ever waited for her on the Croatian

17 side in Dragalic to inquire about her Kemo because nobody knew Kemo there.

18 The gentleman on the other side, the witness, did not turn up at that

19 exchange, let alone ask her something. Marko Milos, who was there, knew

20 nothing whatsoever about it. Therefore, all of these were purely her own

21 fabrications. And I'm very pleased that Kemo did not corroborate this.

22 Q. My general question was whether you took any money from anybody

23 else?

24 A. No. That was fabricated as well. I didn't take, nor did I ask,

25 for any money from anybody.

Page 15502

1 Q. Another topic we need to examine before our final question, very

2 briefly, please. We have heard it mentioned here that you had a beard.

3 What we know nor a fact, what can be gleaned from evidence before this

4 Tribunal, is that at the footage from the exchange which took place on the

5 4th of September, 1992, you had a beard. What we saw on the videotape

6 today was that in June, in 1993, as well as in a picture from Gradacac

7 taken in May of 1993, you don't have a beard. Can you tell Their Honours

8 when did you grow a beard, why, and when did you shave it off?

9 A. You had to put these questions to me, but they are silly

10 questions, if I may say so, because everybody has a right to have a beard

11 or not to have one if he so pleases.

12 Q. Please tell us what were your motives? I'm interested in that,

13 and it is clear why the Prosecutor put questions to witnesses here, and

14 you heard what some witnesses had said about you having a beard. Did you

15 have a reason to grow a beard? Why did you do that? Can you tell us

16 that? If you can't, then I won't be putting any further questions to you.

17 A. I didn't have any special motives except that we have a custom

18 whereby if somebody in your family is killed, you grow a beard. It is one

19 of the motives. But people don't wear a beard forever. The custom says

20 that you should grow a beard for 40 days, and then shave it off. With me,

21 it lasted a bit longer for practical reasons. There was no electricity,

22 no water, and I frequently went to negotiations, so the beard saved me

23 from having to shave every morning. And on the tape, as we shall see, the

24 Croats who negotiated with me had a beard as well.

25 Q. You didn't tell me, when did you start growing a beard? We need

Page 15503

1 this because of the testimony of the witness relating to the 17th of

2 April. Some of the witnesses said here that they saw you around that time

3 with a beard. So please tell us when did you grow a beard?

4 A. One of my relatives got killed on the 29th of April, 1992. And

5 this is when I stopped shaving.

6 Q. Do you remember when you started shaving?

7 A. I don't remember.

8 Q. Very well. I will now turn to the final set of my questions, but

9 before I do that, I will ask you whether you would like to tell us

10 anything else concerning the topics we have examined? If I failed to

11 mention them and you consider them to be crucial for your defence.

12 A. I'm quite tired so that I can't come up with anything special

13 right now. Although I'm sure that there are things that ought to be

14 clarified. But as I've said, I can't think up of anything right now.

15 Q. I said that I will get to this question. At the very outset, I

16 asked you why you decided to testify before this Chamber, and then you

17 told us about how you surrendered and failed to answer my question

18 directly. So please tell us now. You know that you have no obligation to

19 testify so what were your motives to testify before this Court?

20 A. I think that motive stems out of my testimony. I tried to say

21 before this Chamber what I had to say. I didn't manage to voice

22 everything but I said quite a lot of what I wanted, and based on what I

23 have said, one can create a picture of my role and see what it was that I

24 did during that period of time.

25 Q. Mr. Tadic, according to you, to your records, how many people were

Page 15504

1 exchanged through your commission and the military commission?

2 A. If we take into account the military segment and the civilian

3 segment, about 1100 people left Samac, whereas about 1100 or 1080 people

4 came to Samac through -- through the lists that we had. So about 1100

5 people on each side, meaning about 2200 people altogether. This is how

6 many people left and came to Samac area.

7 Q. Mr. Tadic, when you gave an interview to the OTP, you did not give

8 a solemn declaration. During this testimony, you were under the solemn

9 declaration the entire time and you will continue to be so until you

10 finish your testimony. I will ask you now whether you, through your

11 actions, did anything in order to make the life unbearable for Muslims and

12 Croats in Samac during 1992 and 1993, as the Prosecutor alleges?

13 A. On the contrary, I did my best to help, and if at all possible, to

14 make life easier to them, not just life but their stay there and

15 everything else. One could say that many of them found shelter in my

16 house, and were assisted by my activities.

17 Q. Did you wish for any of your fellow citizens, your students, the

18 neighbours you knew and those that you didn't know to leave Samac

19 forever?

20 A. I never even subconsciously wished for that. It was an immediate

21 necessity, and this is how it happened. All of those people returned

22 later on. Their property was restored to them and they chose where they

23 wanted to live, be it Samac or elsewhere. Naturally, circumstances had a

24 lot to do with it. Circumstances that exist now, which I expect will

25 improve.

Page 15505

1 Q. Mr. Tadic, how did you feel when you escorted these people, who

2 went for an exchange, carrying their personal belongings?

3 A. It was hard for me, and my attitude reflected that. Somehow I

4 always was a bit distanced from that, so to speak. I tried to be -- I

5 tried to be in it as infrequently as possible because it was a very

6 difficult situation.

7 Q. Mr. Tadic, how did you feel when these people started returning to

8 Samac?

9 A. Unfortunately, most of the people, upon their return, didn't find

10 me in Samac, but during the brief period of time that I spent at home, I

11 met people who had left and returned, perhaps only temporarily, to Samac.

12 My contacts with them were very close and friendly.

13 Q. My last question, Mr. Tadic: Now, after ten years have passed --

14 just a minute, please, page 56, line 6, you said that it was an immediate

15 necessity, a temporary necessity. That's what you said?

16 A. Yes, that's what I said. Something has just occurred to me. One

17 of the questions. Many people here spoke about the fact that in some

18 property issues in Samac, about plundering and losing the money they had

19 in accounts in banks in Samac, and it has just occurred to me that we

20 haven't touched upon that subject. So if you wish we can focus on that

21 now.

22 Q. Can you tell us what happened to your accounts in banks?

23 A. All of the citizens who were involved in private businesses had

24 giro accounts, and my giro account suffered the same fate as all the other

25 giro accounts. My money wasn't used and what I had on that account was

Page 15506

1 completely devalued. Just like other citizens, I had quite a lot of

2 money, by our standards. I had foreign currency account with Privredna

3 bank in Samac, in Privredna bank in Odzak, and in another private bank in

4 Tuzla. I also had some money in Dafina bank. To this day, I have not

5 received a single deutschmark back, except for the fact that just recently

6 Republika Srpska has issued guarantees for Dafina bank and promised that

7 in the following 16 years, it would pay out the principal. The Privredna

8 bank in Samac acknowledged the interests accrued. However, not a single

9 penny has been paid to date. The same goes for the other banks I've

10 mentioned. Therefore, the situation is the same for all of the citizens.

11 Q. Just a minute, Your Honours. I need to consult my colleagues.


13 [Defence counsel confer]

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic?

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mr. Tadic, now that ten years have passed from these events in

17 Samac municipalities, and now that you have spent almost four years in

18 detention, do you think that you helped all those people who were

19 exchanged, that you helped them through your activities and your work?

20 A. I think that I helped all of them.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I've concluded with my examination,

22 Your Honours.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lukic, you -- you're not going to use these

24 other documents so we will return them to you.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes. These documents I've already

Page 15507

1 spoken to the Prosecution. Some documents, meaning mainly the list of

2 exchange, I was going to introduce them at the end of my examination,

3 because I wanted to make some checks first because I see that there are

4 some lists which are actually doubled, which were actually tendered by the

5 Prosecution. So I wanted to go through these and then tender them later.

6 So that we don't have to use witnesses for these lists.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. Any other counsel wanting to -- just to

8 put questions to Mr. Tadic?

9 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, the Defence of Mr. Zaric does not

10 want to examine this witness.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you.

12 Mr. Pantelic?

13 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour, thank you. I have a couple of

14 topics to clarify with Mr. Tadic.

15 Cross-examined by Mr. Pantelic:

16 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, good day, Mr. Tadic.

17 A. Good day.

18 Q. I consulted with your lawyer so I have the opportunity to clarify

19 this: Earlier today you spoke about -- this was on page 56, line 6 and 7,

20 when you were talking about the departure of people from Samac. I assume

21 that you meant Serbs, Croats and Muslims who were leaving Samac during the

22 war.

23 A. I was thinking about the people who left through lists, and there

24 were Serbs, Croats and Muslims on those lists but there were considerably

25 fewer Serbs.

Page 15508

1 Q. Yes. That was my understanding as well. Now, your formulation,

2 immediate need -- necessity. Perhaps I'm mistaken but it's better for us

3 to clarify that. I believe that that formulation or that term leaves a

4 certain space for a misunderstanding because this is something that the

5 Prosecution could use to provide a different interpretation. So it is my

6 duty now to ask you to choose between two options that I will give you and

7 to tell us which is more realistic. According to the term, immediate

8 necessity, the departure of non-Serbs in accordance with the departure

9 lists so by immediate necessity, did you mean that they were ethnically

10 persecuted from Samac or the second options -- option that they because of

11 the situation of war, and the joining of their families and other reasons

12 which were beyond the control of regular, ordinary people, were leaving

13 Samac. So which of those two options are you supporting?

14 A. I believe that the other option, the second option, is correct,

15 when I thought -- when I said immediate necessity. I did not want to

16 explain that entire situation. First of all, the area affected was

17 affected by war. Then the economic situation, the constant shelling,

18 separated families, the need for a higher standard in any regard, a higher

19 standard of medical treatment, for example, and so on. So all of these

20 were circumstances which led to the things that I talked about. It did

21 not refer at all to that first part that you talked about.

22 Q. Another question, Mr. Tadic: You mentioned a number of people

23 from Samac, Samac citizens, who were on the exchange lists. I think you

24 said that there were about 1100 such persons. So that it could be

25 clarified, because we heard some other evidence in this case relating to

Page 15509

1 that, could you please tell me, since in that context you mentioned that

2 1.000 or more came to Samac in accordance with those lists, I'm now asking

3 you what was the number of refugees in Samac in late 1992 or in late 1993?

4 Do you have data about this? And can you also explain to us, if that's

5 not in accordance with the number that you mentioned from the exchange

6 lists, how did -- how was accord on that reached, in what other way?

7 A. Of course, there is this data that you are talking about. The

8 number that came via the lists is much smaller than the number of actual

9 refugees who came to the territory of Samac. We had the opportunity here

10 to see a document, I don't remember the number of it, but it was a report

11 by the Red Cross, where the number 2.800 [as interpreted] Serbs is

12 mentioned, at the end of 1992, and it is stated how many women, how many

13 children, on that list, and so forth. So at the time --

14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The witness said on page 60, line 23,

15 he said 5.800 and it says 2.800.

16 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Continue, Mr. Tadic, it was a correction for the transcript.

18 A. Yes. Perhaps it says 5.800 in the document. Also, it says in the

19 document that at the end of the war in Samac, there were almost 10.000

20 refugees. So that these numbers are very different. I talked about those

21 people who came via the lists, and these others are people who came as

22 refugees in various other ways. So the number of those who came as

23 refugees is ten times greater than the number of those who came via the

24 lists.

25 Q. Thank you. That was my understanding of that also.

Page 15510

1 Could you please tell me, would it be correct if I said that a

2 large number of refugees in Samac significantly disrupted the security

3 environment, the people were angry, they came from areas that were

4 affected by war, from Drvar, Glamoc, Zavidovici, all the other areas.

5 What is your personal knowledge about the atmosphere in Samac, because of

6 the inflow? And if we look at percentages, since Domaljevac and the rest

7 was in the hands of the HVO, so we are talking about 50 per cent of the

8 existing population, 50 per cent more, the number of the population went

9 up by 50 per cent. So what is your understanding or knowledge about this

10 situation?

11 A. I think that this claim of yours --

12 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, there are a lot of issues

13 in that question. I'm not -- Mr. Tadic is not my witness. I'm not

14 standing up to protest on his behalf but there are quite a number of

15 issues in that. If he gives an answer in general terms, you're not going

16 to know what he's answering. If Mr. Pantelic wishes to go into those

17 areas, fine, but surely they should be done individually. Security, anger

18 of the refugees, atmosphere, percentages, they are all separate and on the

19 face of it unrelated topics. Now, the better way would be, I suggest, and

20 for your benefit as well, to divide those topics up and get good, clear

21 answers.

22 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, if I may, well, my first question was

23 related to the atmosphere with regard to the ethnic relations in Samac due

24 to other circumstances, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

Page 15511

1 MR. PANTELIC: It was just my foundation but no problem, I can

2 clarify that with the witness.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: What the Prosecution is saying essentially is that

4 break down your questions, put one question at a time so the witness can

5 answer.

6 MR. PANTELIC: Well, no problem.

7 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Tadic, to make it brief, because you know how

8 I put the question, could you please tell me your opinion, your personal

9 knowledge, relating to the inflow of Serb refugees in those numbers, to

10 Samac, in the 1992-93 period that is covered by this indictment. Could

11 you please explain that to the Chamber? I don't have to ask you the

12 question.

13 A. I tried to answer right away and I said that what you said, your

14 remark, was quite mild, relating to the atmosphere, which resulted from

15 the vast number of refugees. The largest number of refugees were actually

16 oriented towards the town of Samac itself. The large number of people, as

17 you said, angry people, and I would say bitter because of the situation

18 they were in, had a significant effect on life in Samac. The authorities

19 in particular had enormous problems to channel that in a certain way,

20 towards a more or less normal life. This is a vast problem in any way

21 that you look at it, from the aspect of accommodation, satisfying the

22 other social requirements, I don't need to go into all that of what it is

23 that a person needs when they arrive to a new area.

24 MR. PANTELIC: [Microphone not activated]

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

Page 15512

1 MR. PANTELIC: Sorry, my mike was off.

2 Q. [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Tadic, and to continue: During

3 questions put by your counsel over the past few days, I think that this

4 was on last Friday or Monday, but you talked about a meeting at the Crisis

5 Staff in April, 1992, when you were called and told that you were

6 appointed commander of the civil protection. On that occasion, you

7 mentioned that Stevan Todorovic and Mirko Jovanovic, according to what you

8 remember, were in a way opposed to this multi-ethnic composition of your

9 headquarters [Realtime transcript read in error "head yours"] and the

10 multi-party composition. Do you remember that you said something to that

11 effect? I'm asking you now, the following: Dr. Blagoje Simic, what was

12 his position on this proposal of yours, the way you found the headquarters

13 of the civilian protection? But just one moment because my colleague,

14 Lazarevic, wishes to correct something in the transcript, please.

15 MR. LAZAREVIC: "The ethnic composition of your" here it says

16 "head yours." The thing was Mr. Pantelic was speaking about civilian

17 protection staff.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, it will be corrected.

19 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, this is a problem, yeah in transcript, 63,

20 page line 21, instead of head, it should be headquarters of civilian

21 protection staff, just a correction for the transcript.

22 Q. [Interpretation] So go ahead, Mr. Tadic. Could you please tell me

23 what Blagoje Simic's stand was towards your proposal to form the civilian

24 protection headquarters in this manner?

25 A. I remember talking about that and that's exactly how it was. I

Page 15513

1 think that even during my first meeting with Mr. Blagoje Simic, told him

2 that the President of the local community would become part of the staff,

3 who at that time was Safet Hadzialagic called Pop, and some other people.

4 He didn't have anything to say to that. He didn't have any objections to

5 that. He said that I should take the people that I believed would be of

6 help. At that meeting, that I discussed, they, and when I said "they" I'm

7 talking about these two men that we are talking about, were not pleased by

8 the fact that the civilian protection staff was formed in this manner, and

9 it's clear that they came out with certain objections. I didn't even

10 notice that the composition of the staff -- I mean I didn't view these

11 people from an ethnic or political aspect, and that they would be close to

12 one another along ethnic or political lines.

13 Q. You explained that but could you please tell me, and this is what

14 I'm interested in, the position of Blagoje Simic relating to your

15 proposal. Was he in favour or against?

16 A. I've already said that he was not against it, and now I wanted to

17 finish. I also --

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Di Fazio.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: I was waiting for the witness to finish because my

20 concern arises from a previous answer, so perhaps if the witness could

21 finish his answer and then I might raise an issue.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said earlier that these two

24 gentlemen that I mentioned, Stevan Todorovic and Mirko Jovanovic, to any

25 remark or any position, had their own opinion on that and they were quite

Page 15514

1 loud and would try in a certain way to impose what they thought. They

2 reacted in the same way on that occasion, in an impolite manner, because

3 they didn't know what the results would be of these people in their work.

4 Blagoje Simic tried to calm them down, allow the man to do this to the end

5 and then you can come out with your remarks. So in that sense, he tried

6 to calm them down. And he was successful because they accepted that, in a

7 way, but they did not forget to object any time that they had the

8 opportunity to do so, relating to the composition of the civilian

9 protection staff. They would even use the telephone to say whether the

10 staff or the central committee was still in full session. And that's what

11 they do if they wanted to say something.

12 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour it's time for our break of 20 minutes I

13 believe.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Di Fazio, do you just want to raise your matter.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Just raise the one issue while the matter is fresh

16 in the witness's mind. Mr. Tadic said that even during his first meeting

17 with Dr. Blagoje Simic, he said that Pop was going to become -- Pop was

18 going to become part of his staff, and then he went on to describe

19 another -- an occasion when there was dissatisfaction expressed about

20 that, about his staff, on the part of Todorovic and someone else. In his

21 evidence in chief, the witness described several meetings initially with

22 the Crisis Staff. It's of significance to know whether that particular --

23 whether this witness, Mr. Tadic, told Dr. Simic of the -- on the first

24 encounter they had, that he had already recruited staff for civilian

25 protection and whether these complaints from Todorovic occurred on that

Page 15515

1 occasion or on a subsequent occasion? Because as I said, he has described

2 several meetings with the administration in the days following the 17th.

3 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour --

4 JUDGE MUMBA: We will take our break now.

5 MR. PANTELIC: There is a matter of principle. I ask for a break

6 for two minutes more because this is -- it was not quite short submission

7 of the Prosecution. As a matter of principle.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: We shall take our break and resume our proceedings

9 at 1250 hours.

10 --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 12.52 p.m.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic?

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have one request which

14 I mentioned the day before yesterday. I have received information that my

15 client has been complaining that it's very cold in the room where he is

16 held during the break. Since we are now going to have a long lunch break,

17 I ask, as we are working all day, that the conditions in the one and a

18 half hours during the lunch break be improved for my client, because this

19 is quite exhausting for him. So I ask that the relevant service be

20 informed that the room should be better heated.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well.

22 Mr. Pantelic?

23 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. [Interpretation] Before the break, Mr. Tadic, the Prosecutor

25 broached a topic which he could have kept for his cross-examination, but

Page 15516

1 we can clarify it now. While you were speaking about the moment when you

2 presented the composition of the civilian protection staff to the

3 municipal Crisis Staff, when Todorovic and Jovanovic opposed the

4 composition, were you referring to the day of your first arrival in the

5 premises of the Crisis Staff, and was it on this occasion that Mr. Blagoje

6 Simic supported your proposal, as you said? So just tell us whether this

7 is correct or not and then we can move on.

8 A. This refers to the first two encounters and I thought it was

9 clear. The first encounter in Uniglas when I saw Blagoje for the first

10 time, this was not an encounter that happened ad hoc. We met there and we

11 had the chat, and that was the first time when I mentioned Mr. Pop. The

12 second event was the one we have spoken of. So there were two meetings,

13 not more.

14 Q. Mr. Tadic, my next question, and we have heard a little about

15 this, but as you were a member of the Crisis Staff in the first period,

16 you were not politically active or a member of any party, so was the

17 composition of the Crisis Staff multi-party? Just say yes or no and then

18 we can move on.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. On the basis of your personal knowledge, was the Crisis Staff some

21 sort of coordinating body as you explained that experts from various areas

22 would come there, according to need, or was it some sort of authority

23 issuing orders? How would you describe it on the basis of your personal

24 knowledge and experience of work in that body?

25 A. Well, I would say that it was a coordinating body, or to put it in

Page 15517

1 simpler terms, a body receiving requests. It had no function to issue

2 orders of any sort.

3 Q. Was the Crisis Staff able to issue any sort of order to the

4 police? Or did the police have other chains of command?

5 A. As far as I know --

6 MR. WEINER: Objection, Your Honour, at this point.


8 MR. WEINER: Two things. One is, he's asking was the Crisis Staff

9 able to issue any orders to the police or did the police have chains of

10 command, that's two questions. That's number one. Number two, he's

11 asking him a legal question. He can ask him, did the Crisis Staff while

12 you were on it issue any orders? Were there discussions with the police

13 while you were on it? Legally, that's a statutory issue. So I don't feel

14 he's qualified to respond. He can respond what he knows while he was on

15 it, whether or not orders were issued. And then his answer, he starts,

16 "As far as I know." So if he's going to start speculating or guessing on

17 legal matters that's not for him to do.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, I think we are back to the same issue. The

19 witness must tell what happened, what he knows.

20 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, that's correct, Your Honour. In fact, all my

21 questions are based on his personal knowledge. So in order not to repeat

22 every time, this construction, for all further questions, as well as for

23 the previous, my basis is according to the witness's personal knowledge.

24 So I think that's clarified the issue.

25 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Tadic, we are speaking of your personal

Page 15518

1 knowledge, while you were a member of that body, did the Crisis Staff

2 issue any orders or instructions to the police?

3 A. According to my personal knowledge, and that's what I tried to

4 tell you right away, if we were to identify Stevan Todorovic as a

5 representative of the police, which he often was, I have never heard that

6 any order was issued to Mr. Stevan Todorovic or through him to the police.

7 MR. PANTELIC: I do apologise, Your Honour, my colleague just

8 informed me that there was some mis-clarity in the transcript but it's

9 okay.

10 Q. [Interpretation] My second question is the following: Did the

11 police have a chain of command of its own, its own system of issuing

12 commands?

13 A. Certainly they did. They had their own system of command and just

14 as I, as the commander of the civilian protection staff, had my own line,

15 I was not subordinated to the Crisis Staff but to the Secretariat for

16 National Defence.

17 Q. In connection with Stevan Todorovic, and his alleged role in the

18 work of the Crisis Staff, according to your personal knowledge, did he

19 participate in decision-making or did he define his presence at the

20 meetings of the Crisis Staff in another way? What is your personal

21 knowledge and experience of this?

22 A. According to my personal knowledge, while I was in the Crisis

23 Staff, Stevan Todorovic always took a position of power, and tried to

24 impose his own opinion regardless of the opinions of others. And that was

25 the thrust of all his activity.

Page 15519

1 Q. Did he have the right to vote in the Crisis Staff?

2 A. As far as I can remember, there was rarely a vote held, because

3 the decisions arrived from the expert services, the professional services,

4 and then we would discuss them and say whether we agreed with them, and

5 that would be that. If a vote was held when an important decision had to

6 be reached, Stevan Todorovic usually opposed decisions he didn't like, and

7 he didn't vote in favour of them.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: So the answer is that he had the right to vote?

9 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. I will repeat the question. Maybe you didn't understand it?

11 JUDGE MUMBA: No he understood it and he answered. I'm simply

12 asking the witness the position was that Stevan Todorovic, whenever he

13 attended meetings of the Crisis Staff and if there was any vote to be

14 taken, he had the right to vote.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would rather say that he took upon

16 himself the right to vote. It's hard to conclude whether he actually had

17 that right or not, but he took it upon himself to make decisions.


19 Q. [Interpretation] Did you and the other members of the Crisis Staff

20 and we saw some documents, did you consider him to be a member of the

21 Crisis Staff?

22 A. In view of his behaviour at the Crisis Staff, I personally was

23 convinced that he was a member. What the others thought, I don't know.

24 This is my opinion, and it was not supported by any documents or -- I

25 don't know -- positions. It's only what I concluded from the way he

Page 15520

1 behaved and the way he imposed his opinions on others.

2 Q. In his testimony, Stevan Todorovic mentioned several times that,

3 after he had committed certain crimes, he reported to the Crisis Staff and

4 told them about these crimes. Did this happen? Do you have any personal

5 knowledge of this?

6 A. I have no such knowledge, and this never happened. Had he come

7 and said, "I killed so and so," I probably would not have sat round the

8 same table with him any longer, or had he said, "Last night I entered the

9 detention unit and beat up five or ten people," that would have been so

10 disgusting that I think everyone would have left the room.

11 Q. Did the Crisis Staff order the arrest of people in Crkvina?

12 A. According to my knowledge, the Crisis Staff did not order anyone's

13 arrest. This was exclusively within the competence of Mr. Todorovic and

14 the police.

15 Q. Tell me, Mr. Tadic, in view of the fact that the Prosecution

16 broached this topic several times, although it's not mentioned in the

17 indictment, but I have to ask you this, I'm referring to the role of the

18 SDS in Samac. Do you have any personal knowledge of the SDS cooperating

19 with the 4th Detachment and the JNA before the 17th of April, 1992?

20 A. I have no such knowledge.

21 Q. Can you tell us what you know about SDS arming members of the Serb

22 population before April, 1992?

23 A. According to my personal knowledge, the SDS had no need to do

24 that, because all those who responded to the call-up were issued with

25 weapons in a legal manner, with the proper documents, and it would have

Page 15521

1 been wrong for the SDS to get mixed up in this, because this was done in a

2 legal way, it was done in a complete manner, and in a proper way.

3 Q. Am I then right in concluding that the SDS had nothing to do with

4 arming the civilian population of Serb ethnicity? Is that a proper

5 conclusion?

6 A. Yes, it is, because things were the way I have just described

7 them.

8 Q. My next question, Mr. Tadic, is: After the 17th of April, 1992,

9 according to your personal knowledge, was the Crisis Staff able to issue

10 orders to the 17th Tactical Group in the area of responsibility of that

11 unit?

12 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, it might be splitting hairs

13 but it's an important splitting of hairs, I submit. The question really

14 should be did the Crisis Staff do that, not whether or not it had the

15 power to, unless Mr. Tadic can be qualified as some sort of legal expert

16 on the emerging laws of the Republika Srpska, and he hasn't been. So I've

17 no objection to asking did this happen but not whether it was capable or

18 not.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm sure Mr. Tadic can answer: Did the Crisis Staff

20 issue any orders to the 17th Tactical Group in the area of responsibility

21 of that unit?

22 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Please answer the question?

24 A. According to my knowledge, there were no such orders issued by the

25 Crisis Staff, either to the 17th Tactical Group which was higher level

Page 15522

1 organ, or to the 4th Detachment, which was in the Samac area.

2 Q. Now, please tell me, Mr. Tadic, was Crisis Staff able, or did you

3 have any information to the effect that the Crisis Staff was able to issue

4 any orders or instructions to the 2nd Posavina Brigade of the Army of

5 Republika Srpska after the withdrawal of the 17th Tactical Group?

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Tadic, the question should be did the Crisis

7 Staff issue any orders to the 2nd Posavina Brigade?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to my information, no, it

9 didn't.

10 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Please tell me, did the Crisis Staff participate in appointing

12 officers and command officers of the 2nd Posavina Brigade? In other

13 words did it appoint the people at the command level? Did the Crisis

14 Staff do that?

15 A. According to what I know, according to the information I have, the

16 Crisis Staff had no such authority, and did not appoint commanders.

17 Q. Please tell me: Did the SDS in Samac maintain, or rather organise

18 political rallies at which it advocated ethnic intolerance? Were there

19 any instances of that?

20 A. I did not attend such rallies, nor did I hear from anyone that

21 words of that nature were uttered.

22 Q. What do you personally know about whether Blagoje Simic

23 demonstrated ethnic intolerance with respect to other ethnic groups in

24 Samac? Did he on any occasion show hatred or intolerance with respect to

25 them in Samac?

Page 15523

1 A. As far as Blagoje Simic is concerned, I can assure you that he had

2 no such tendencies.

3 Q. A few questions related to Odzak. The Crisis Staff in Samac, was

4 it able to issue instructions or orders to the military administration in

5 Odzak?

6 A. It is quite logical that it was unable to do that. The military

7 role was subordinated or the military administration was subordinated to

8 the 1st Krajina Corps and the 1st Krajina Corps of the Army of Republika

9 Srpska was subordinated to the main staff and so on.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Same objection, if Your Honours please. Yes. It's

11 the same -- got the same problem all the time. This witness discussing

12 inherent legal rights or powers, unless he's qualified as an expert in

13 that area, he can't -- he can't talk about that. However, as I've said, I

14 have no objection to the actual issuance of orders or instructions, if

15 Mr. Pantelic asks him did this happen, did it take place, I've got no

16 problem with that.

17 MR. PANTELIC: It's a problem with translation. My question was

18 did the Crisis Staff and it's not in the transcript. So in B/C/S language

19 my question was very clear: Did the Crisis Staff issue any orders so

20 maybe I can proceed on English but it's not my fault.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: No, no. I understand. And it's a difficult matter

22 of linguistics, I understand but I ask that Mr. Pantelic take extra care

23 on this issue.

24 MR. PANTELIC: I'm taking extra care of course.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: And I'm grateful to him.

Page 15524

1 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. I will repeat my question: Did the Crisis Staff in Samac, or to

3 be more precise, the War Presidency of Samac, at the time, issue orders to

4 the military administration in Odzak?

5 A. I'm here speaking as somebody who has certain knowledge. I'm not

6 an expert on that issue. I'm saying this to calm the opposite side. I

7 said that it did not have such authorities, the Crisis Staff, nor could it

8 have done so.

9 Q. What do you know, Mr. Tadic, about the following issue? Did the

10 civilian authorities in Samac, and you know what I'm referring to, to the

11 War Presidency, executive council, the municipal assembly and so on, did

12 they ever, in 1992 and 1993, organise and order the plunder of private

13 property or state-owned property in any way, a systematic plunder of it?

14 A. While I was directly involved, there were no such orders, neither

15 did I hear of such orders later on.

16 Q. Now I'd like to ask you something about the relations that existed

17 between people that we have become acquainted with in this trial. Please

18 tell me what were the relations like between Simo Zaric and Blagoje Simic?

19 Were they of similar opinions? Did they follow the same kind of policy?

20 Did they cooperate and so on? How would you describe their relationship

21 during that period of time?

22 A. If we leave aside their political convictions, which are not

23 important during wartime, at least in my opinion, I believe that they were

24 on good terms. The relations between them were correct. I never heard

25 that they had a clash between them. Neither of them complained to me of

Page 15525

1 the other. But like everybody else, they held different opinions on

2 various matters.

3 Q. You told us about their political differences, that is not

4 disputed, but do you know something about the fact that there was a

5 conflict between military authorities and civilian authorities in Samac

6 during 1992?

7 A. I wasn't involved in it so I couldn't say much about it.

8 According to my personal knowledge, I believe there was no conflict

9 there. We could say that there were some individual, occasional problems

10 but not a conflict per se.

11 Q. Mr. Tadic, how would you describe relationship between Blagoje

12 Simic and Stevan Todorovic?

13 A. I've said everything I had about Mr. Stevan Todorovic, everything

14 I believe to be important. I described his attitude towards me. I don't

15 think that he -- his attitude towards Blagoje Simic was any better, and it

16 was even worse towards Mr. Simo Zaric.

17 Q. To make it quite clear for the record, did I understand you well

18 that you in fact said that Blagoje Simic was against Stevan Todorovic and

19 held different opinions during this period of time, 1992 and 1993?

20 A. I would be more likely to say that he was against the views of

21 Mr. Stevan Todorovic, just as I was opposed to his views, as was Simo

22 Zaric. So he wasn't against Todorovic as a person, but against his views.

23 Q. And how would you describe the relationship between Blagoje Simic

24 and volunteers from Serbia, the so-called Sareni? What do you know about

25 that?

Page 15526

1 A. My experience with those people wearing camouflage uniforms was

2 quite bad, and I said yesterday that the same would apply to Mr. Blagoje

3 Simic and Simo Zaric. Their experience with them was quite bad.

4 Q. Tell me, please: According to you, did Blagoje Simic issue any

5 orders to volunteers from Serbia? Was he able to do so and how did it

6 look in reality?

7 A. I'm sure that Mr. Blagoje Simic issued no orders to volunteers.

8 Q. Mr. Tadic, tell me, please, would it be correct to say that in the

9 time period covered by the indictment, given that evidence was adduced

10 here, certain evidence, would it be correct to say that a large number of

11 citizens of Samac, of non-Serb background, held high offices in various

12 institutions and companies in Samac? Would it be correct to say that?

13 A. I would agree with that claim. And that became clear through the

14 evidence heard here. I've already mentioned some people holding certain

15 offices, such as Dr. Nogic, who was the director of health centre. Other

16 witnesses spoke of other Muslims who held important offices in Bosanski

17 Samac. A large number of these people is living in Samac nowadays as

18 well. Some of them left but a lot of them are still in Samac today.

19 Q. Mr. Tadic, in 1992 and 1993, the period covered by the indictment,

20 were the civilian authorities in Samac able to arrest volunteers from

21 Serbia?

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, I'm a bit confused by the question, if Your

23 Honours please. Is Mr. Pantelic asking whether the civilian authorities

24 had the legal power or authority to arrest volunteers or the Sareni? If

25 so I object, unless Mr. Tadic can be qualified as an expert on the legal

Page 15527

1 structures of the emerging Republika Srpska. On the other hand, if the

2 question is: Did they try to arrest, did they in fact carry out any

3 arrests, no objection at all.

4 MR. PANTELIC: Maybe also it's the same of -- spirit of language

5 but I will put the question as follows.

6 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Tadic, please tell us, were civilian

7 authorities in Samac in a situation were they able to arrest --

8 MR. DI FAZIO: That's precisely what I'm objecting to. If the

9 question could be simply ask did they attempt to or do they arrest --

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Tadic -- Mr. Pantelic --

11 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Tadic is receiving interpretation of the

13 Prosecution's objections. So he should be able to answer, did the

14 civilian authorities issue arrest any of the persons in the -- yeah, in

15 the group of volunteers?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is not within the scope of

17 authorities of civilian authorities to arrest anyone, be them members of

18 wearing camouflage uniforms or not. So according to my knowledge, and

19 I've already told you I was no expert, civilian authorities do not carry

20 out arrests unless we consider police to be civilian authorities. In my

21 fairly long life, I have not seen examples of civilian authorities

22 arresting anyone.

23 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Please tell me, did civilian authorities have any organs of

25 repression under their authority, such as police, or law enforcement

Page 15528

1 authorities, who could have imposed law and order in Samac?

2 A. In this trial so far, it became clear what repressive forces there

3 were, so the Crisis Staff or any other organ had no other repressive

4 forces at their disposal except those which normally exist everywhere,

5 such as police. Since I do not believe the police service to be part of

6 civilian authorities, then my answer is no.

7 Q. So civilian authorities in Samac had no repressive forces or

8 police or any other organs under their control, organs that could have

9 carried out arrests?

10 A. No, they had no such forces.

11 Q. Tell me, please, was any decision of civilian authorities

12 mandatory for police and military organs, any of the decisions passed in

13 1992 and 1993, according to your information?

14 MR. DI FAZIO: The same objection is made. It's a legal

15 conclusion that is being sought. Now, Mr. Tadic, according to what he has

16 said, was involved in civilian protection and was -- and the commission

17 for exchanges. He was, I know, a member of the Crisis Staff, and again, I

18 have no objection to his saying, giving evidence that in fact they made a

19 decision or in fact he never heard of any such decision, but again and

20 again, the -- again and again he's being asked to draw legal conclusions,

21 namely whether, in theory, any decision of the civilian authorities bound

22 the police or not. So he can be asked did they take any such decisions

23 but not whether or not they were bound.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic.

25 MR. PANTELIC: [Interpretation]

Page 15529

1 Q. Could you please tell us what you know about that, Mr. Tadic?

2 A. I've already replied that I don't know of any decisions made by

3 the civilian authorities which would be directed towards the police, which

4 would be binding.

5 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, is it time for our break now?


7 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: How much more time, Mr. Pantelic?

9 MR. PANTELIC: I will -- not more than 10, 15 minutes, even less

10 maybe. I will check the issues here. Thank you.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: We will continue our proceedings at 1500 hours.

12 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.31 p.m.

13 --- On resuming at 3.04 p.m.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic?

15 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour, I would like to inform the Trial

16 Chamber that I don't have further questions for Mr. Tadic. Thank you.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: All right. The Prosecution?

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, if Your Honours please.

19 Cross-examined by Mr. Di Fazio:

20 Q. Mr. Tadic by this stage of the proceedings we don't need any

21 introductions, you know who I am and what my task is. However in common

22 with all the lawyers in this courtroom I would ask that if you can

23 possibly answer a question with a yes or a no, please do so. Any

24 ambiguities will be clarified by your counsel later in re-examination.

25 I'd just like to ask you some general and varied questions moving

Page 15530

1 from topic to topic initially. Can you tell me, if the principle of the

2 exchanges was that civilians were exchanged for civilians and soldiers

3 were exchanged for soldiers?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Can you tell me if all the prisoners who were imprisoned in Odzak

6 municipality were exchanged for Croatian soldiers who were in good health

7 and who were in camps or in prisons on the Serbian side?

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I see that there are two

9 questions here. One is who was exchanged and the other is who was in good

10 health and what were the conditions. So perhaps there is a reason to

11 first find out the health condition and then --

12 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll break it up into portions.

13 Q. Can you tell the Chamber, please, Mr. Tadic, if all the prisoners

14 who were imprisoned in Odzak municipality were exchanged for Croatian

15 soldiers?

16 A. Mainly it was like that. The Croat and Muslim soldiers, for those

17 who were detained in prisons in Republika Srpska, were exchanged for those

18 who were in the Republic of Croatia or in Herceg-Bosna.

19 Q. I'm of course now talking about Bosanski Samac municipality and

20 Odzak municipality. What about that particular geographical area? Would

21 you say that the prisoners who were imprisoned in Odzak municipality were

22 exchanged for Croatian soldiers who were in good health?

23 A. In good health is a relative term. Their health was the same on

24 one side and on the other side.

25 Q. Sure. Were -- I understand that health is a relative term. Thank

Page 15531

1 you. However, can you say that all the Croatian soldiers who were

2 exchanged were in good health?

3 A. To tell you the truth, I wasn't the one who determined their state

4 of health and I can just speculate.

5 Q. So you don't know if they were all in good health, the best that

6 you could do would be to speculate?

7 A. Yes, that is exactly so.

8 Q. The occasions that you went to Batkovic, was it only in -- towards

9 the end of 1992 and early 1993, or did you go there on other occasions?

10 A. Only in late 1992 and early [as interpreted] part of 1993 because

11 the Batkovic camp at that time was formed. It wasn't -- there was no camp

12 there earlier.

13 MR. LUKIC: Excuse me, Your Honour.


15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In the transcript on page 82, line 21,

16 the witness said and part of 1993. He did not say in the early part of

17 1993. He said and part of 1993.


19 Q. What part of 1993 did you go to Batkovic?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. I know that you went there in 1993. Did you go there in early

22 1993, mid-1993, late 1993? Or did you go there throughout 1993?

23 A. I would say that I went there in 1993, partly, in the part when

24 there were exchanges. The exact date of the last time when I went there,

25 I don't know, but let's say that this was in mid-1993.

Page 15532

1 Q. Did you also go there in late 1993, do you think?

2 A. I think that I did not go there in late 1993.

3 Q. Can you tell me if all of the prisoners or the prisoners who were

4 exchanged from Samac to the Croatian side were in good health?

5 A. I said before that good health is a relative term. I didn't

6 examine anyone or receive any medical finding nor did I see anything in

7 particular relating to health. I saw what I already said, I saw that I

8 had seen that Mr. Salkic had been beaten and I stated that here.

9 Q. Thank you. Would you describe the TO, the primary school gym and

10 the high school gym as reception centres where people were put up until

11 they were exchanged?

12 A. The school centre gym is a place that I know very well because I

13 worked at the school centre for a very long time, so I know every

14 particular of that gym. However, I've never been to the gym of the

15 primary school, and I would not be able to describe it.

16 Q. My question is really very simple. Tell me if this is correct:

17 These places, the high school gym, the primary school gym and the TO, can

18 they be described as reception centres, reception centres, where people

19 were put up until they were exchanged?

20 A. They could be described as detention until -- where people were,

21 until they were released from that detention. Here we've also heard that

22 people were released even before exchanges took place.

23 Q. Are you saying, therefore, that those places were not reception

24 centres where people were put up or kept until their exchange occurred?

25 A. No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that that was detention where

Page 15533

1 people were held up until the point of exchange or up until the point when

2 they were released.

3 Q. Would you say -- sorry, I'll withdraw that. Still referring to

4 these places, the school gyms and TO, would you say that at the beginning

5 of these places starting to function, 500 to 600 people were placed there?

6 A. It's hard to say any number, but if you would like me to comment

7 on what was here, I could say that there were about --

8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not get the number of how

9 many people were in the TO.

10 A. In the school centre there were about 50 and about 300 in the gym

11 but I'm not sure whether these figures were exactly correct, but it is

12 beyond dispute that there were people in those places that you mention.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

14 Q. Just to clarify something for the transcript, apparently, in your

15 answer you mentioned a number. You mentioned some number. I believe, in

16 the TO, that the interpreters didn't catch. Could you just repeat those

17 numbers again, please?

18 A. I said that in the TO, there were about 50 people, so I cannot say

19 50 or 51, I'm saying approximately 50. In the primary school, there were

20 also about 50 people, and then in the school centre, there were about 300

21 people. This number was not always the same. From time to time, it was

22 different.

23 Q. Thank you. Would you therefore disagree with a figure of between

24 500 and 600 prisoners in those places? Plus the SUP?

25 A. It's not whether I agree or don't agree. It could be that number

Page 15534

1 but I'm saying I don't have information that it was that number. I can

2 also say that there were about 100 at the TO, 100 in the primary school

3 and about 400 in the high school. So that it would be the number that you

4 are looking for. But it's not anything that I have specific information

5 about. I can only guess.

6 Q. Okay. So a number of between 500 and 600 doesn't come naturally

7 to you? You wouldn't -- if someone, as I'm asking you now, you wouldn't

8 normally reply between 500 and 600?

9 A. I would reply that there was not 500 to 600 people at any point.

10 Perhaps I would agree that 500 to 600 people passed through those

11 facilities but I would not agree that at any one point, there were 500 to

12 600 people there.

13 Q. Thank you. Would you agree that the reception centres or camps

14 were a consequence of the imprisonment of Serbs in Odzak?

15 A. I don't agree, and I don't think that they were a consequence of

16 the imprisonment of Serbs in Odzak because there were -- they were prisons

17 before Odzak and after Odzak.

18 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Di Fazio. Maybe in that last

19 answer, Mr. Tadic, there is a little bit of ambiguity because the

20 translation on line 3 says because there were prisons before Odzak and

21 after Odzak. And necessarily in any state or municipality, there are

22 going to be prisons in time of peace. So the use of the word "prisons"

23 maybe needs a little bit of clarification.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Does that question -- is that for me

Page 15535

1 or for Mr. Di Fazio?

2 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I think I'll leave it to Mr. Di Fazio to rephrase

3 what he asked you to that you can respond without say the ambiguity and as

4 I said the ambiguity might well be in the translation and not in what you

5 yourself said.


7 Q. My question to you will not involve the use of the word prison.

8 My question to you is this: Would you agree that reception centres or

9 camps were a consequence of the imprisonment of Serbs in the area of

10 Odzak?

11 A. I said that I don't agree, and I said that detention centres, or

12 as you say camps, existed before Odzak as well, and this refers to the 8th

13 of May, about which Mr. Di Fazio wants to talk about. I said that before,

14 there were camps even after the 8th of May, and before the 8th of May.

15 Q. Thank you. But in none of your answers are you referring to

16 traditional prisons that had always existed in Bosnia and Herzegovina

17 throughout the 1970s and 1980s and 1990s -- sorry, 1970s and 1980s?

18 A. No. I wasn't talking about classic prisons. I'm talking about

19 the -- what Mr. Di Fazio is asking me about.

20 Q. Does that satisfy Your Honour?

21 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Yes. That's clear. Just the language problem

22 there.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: Thanks.

24 Q. Would you agree that you were given free rein in organising the

25 exchanges?

Page 15536

1 A. I do not agree, because a series of elements were brought out here

2 which limited that. First of all, it was restricted by the other side,

3 which was a part of the negotiating team. Nothing could happen until

4 agreement was reached with the other side. Second, a limiting factor was

5 also the police, which gave its approval as well as the army, which also

6 gave its approval. So I was a technical person in this whole thing.

7 Q. You would say, then, that you didn't have a free hand in the

8 exchanges?

9 A. No.

10 JUDGE WILLIAMS: I think Mr. Di Fazio there is a bit of an

11 ambiguity there. Is Mr. Tadic saying no he didn't have a free hand or no,

12 in -- if you read the question and the answer.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, the usual difficulty with that sort of

14 negative question, yes.

15 Q. Your position is that you did not have a free hand in the

16 exchanges. Now, can you tell us if you agree or disagree with that

17 proposition?

18 A. I did not have any free hand, and I stated what limited this

19 freedom. Had I had a free hand, I would have exchanged all the prisoners

20 at one time. It would be an all-for-all exchange and I would have

21 completed the job.

22 Q. Yes. Thank you. Did you speak to Mr. Blagoje Simic about the

23 exchanges?

24 A. Never officially, but sometimes when he would ask me how it was

25 going, I would explain to him that it was not proceeding without

Page 15537

1 difficulty but that it was coming along.

2 Q. Did he support you generally in your work in the exchanges?

3 A. It can be said that he was the most tolerant amongst the Crisis

4 Staff, and if I ever said anything at the Crisis Staff, he would always

5 back me up with the purpose of improving.

6 Q. Thank you. However, I'm not strictly speaking asking you about

7 his tolerance or otherwise. My question is this: Did he support you

8 generally in your endeavours in the exchanges?

9 A. It's difficult to say whether he did support me or did not,

10 because we didn't discuss that, but if there was an exchange or a

11 discussion, he was always on the side that, let me put it this way, was on

12 the useful part of that task.

13 Q. In 1992, were you old friends with Mr. Blagoje Simic?

14 A. I wasn't a friend because we never sat down together at any table,

15 any party, any celebration, other than having had coffee together at the

16 Crisis Staff, but we were not enemies. We were collaborators, let me put

17 it that way, who had meetings and possibly discussed some matters.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Di Fazio, I think again this might

20 be a language question but the word collaborator has a certain connotation

21 in the English language and I'd like to know whether it is a real

22 interpretation of the B/C/S.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honour, for pointing that out.

24 Q. Mr. Tadic, we all know that you worked with Blagoje Simic and

25 others in 1992. My question is really not about work or collaboration.

Page 15538

1 It's this: Would you describe yourself -- yourselves, that is you and

2 Mr. Blagoje Simic, Dr. Blagoje Simic, as friends in 1992?

3 A. It's difficult to define as friends. We were on good terms. We

4 never quarrelled. But we were not family friends. We didn't visit one

5 another's homes or sit down together, discuss things, drink coffee or have

6 some food together. We were not friends of that kind other than for the

7 official part, we never sat down and had some coffee together. The two of

8 us never went to a cafe together, any cafe, had some coffee together or

9 possibly come over to my house and have coffee but we were not, let me say

10 it this way, angry with one another.

11 Q. Thank you. In your work in the exchanges, did you from time to

12 time ask him for support and did you receive any such support?

13 A. No. I never asked for any kind of support, because I solved these

14 things in any way I could, but had I asked for his support, I would

15 probably have got it.

16 Q. Thank you. In the course of your evidence, you mentioned an

17 exchange at Nemetin. That was, I believe, on the 14th of August, 1992.

18 A. Yes. I did mention that exchange.

19 Q. And was that the exchange at which Sulejman Tihic was exchanged?

20 A. Yes. That was precisely the exchange in which Sulejman Tihic and

21 ten other people from Samac were exchanged.

22 Q. Do you know what the reason was for their transfer out of Bosanski

23 Samac? And eventually ending up in Nemetin?

24 A. I don't know the reason for their transfer, and their ending up in

25 Nemetin, that was agreed on between the authorities I have mentioned.

Page 15539

1 Q. Do you know who they were -- who Mr. Sulejman Tihic and other

2 prisoners from Bosanski Samac who were exchanged at Nemetin were exchanged

3 for, for whom were they exchanged?

4 A. These gentlemen you are referring to, the people from Samac, as

5 well as the people from other prisons in the then Yugoslavia, there were

6 about 700 of these, these were Croats and Muslims, and some of them were

7 also Serbs, and they were exchanged for prisoners who were in Croatian

8 prisons, who were Serbs.

9 Q. Do you know if these prisoners, who were Serbs and for whom they

10 were exchanged at Nemetin were fighters? Soldiers?

11 A. I wouldn't know, because I wasn't anywhere near that. The media

12 simply reported that the exchange had taken place and later on, I learned

13 that the people referred to and the people that I mentioned were part of

14 that exchange. After that, I had an opportunity to see some of these

15 people that I mentioned, after the exchange, and they told me some details

16 about the exchange.

17 Q. Can you tell us if the Croat or Muslim side in that Nemetin

18 exchange readily accepted the prisoners who -- the prisoners from Bosanski

19 Samac? Readily accepted them in the exchange.

20 A. There was no Croatian-Muslim side. There was only the Croatian

21 side. The side of the Republic of Croatia. And it received the people

22 who came from the then Republic of Yugoslavia or what was its name? I

23 think it was the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. That's what it was

24 called at the time. So the Muslims did not take part in that because

25 there weren't any there.

Page 15540

1 Q. Was there any trouble in getting the Croats to accept them?

2 A. As far as I was able to learn from the people who were exchanged,

3 there had been no problems, and they were all accepted.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours just mind giving me a moment to

5 confer with my colleague, please?


7 [Prosecution counsel confer]

8 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm grateful to Your Honours for allowing me that

9 pause. Thank you.

10 Q. Now, I'd like now to turn to another topic, the establishment --

11 the 4th Detachment. Can you tell the Chamber, please, Mr. Tadic, what the

12 rankings were in the 4th Detachment from the bottom up, please? Start

13 with private.

14 A. I have already said that I am no military expert, but I did serve

15 in the army, so I know about the ranks in the former Yugoslavia. The

16 lowest rank was that of private. Then the next rank was private first

17 class. Then there were several groups of sergeants, and then there were

18 several kinds of officers, first of all lieutenants, then several kinds of

19 captains, and there was the rank of major, and then the rank of lieutenant

20 colonel. Then colonel. After that, there were ranks of generals.

21 Q. And where does assistant commander for logistics fit into that

22 ranking?

23 A. Nowhere. A rank is a rank. But this was simply a task, an

24 assignment so to speak.

25 MR. PANTELIC: I do apologise to my learned friend. Maybe it's

Page 15541

1 misunderstanding. You asked Mr. Tadic specifically this ranking within

2 4th Detachment, and I believe that his answer was in general because we

3 all know that in 4th Detachment we didn't have colonels or generals or

4 marshals so maybe you can clarify that just for the transcript maybe

5 because you are mixing theory and this particular issue for the 4th

6 Detachment.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

8 Q. Tell the Chamber of the rankings in the 4th Detachment, please.

9 A. Well, the ranks were inherited from the Yugoslav People's Army.

10 At that time, in the 4th Detachment, I think the highest rank was that of

11 major. All the lower ranks existed. I think somebody in the 4th

12 Detachment had the rank of major. I'm not completely sure but I do know

13 about a man who was a major but he was not in the leadership of the 4th

14 Detachment.

15 Q. Radovan Antic was the commander of the 4th Detachment?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. How many assistant commanders were there?

18 A. There was one assistant commander.

19 Q. Who was that?

20 A. It was Jovo Savic.

21 Q. What were the next ranks down from that?

22 A. These are not ranks, Mr. Di Fazio. They are not ranks.

23 Q. What were the next positions down from that?

24 A. The positions, yes. The position, apart from these two people,

25 assistants commander for security and assistant commander for logistics,

Page 15542

1 and there was another man who performed the general tasks and then there

2 were company leaders and squad leaders --

3 MR. LAZAREVIC: I don't have a problem with this line of

4 examination but the thing is that I believe that there is some

5 misunderstanding in the transcript about two words. Deputy commander and

6 assistant commander. And maybe, I don't know, I decided not to examine

7 this witness and things like that so I won't have the opportunity to

8 clarify this. Maybe this is the right moment for my colleague if he

9 thinks that it's appropriate moment to make a distinction between

10 assistant and deputy.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm using the language that's being translated to

12 me. I'm using the language of the answers of Mr. Tadic. I'm using the

13 language that he gave. He said assistant commander for logistics. That's

14 his language, as far as I recall. I assume the interpretation, I proceed

15 on the basis the interpretation is being conducted accurately and that's

16 the assumption.


18 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, it was all right but here it is on page 93,

19 line 3, how many assistants, I believe that there was at that point some

20 confusion for the witness because when he answered that that was only one,

21 when he answered it was Jovo Savic, he was referring to another post

22 within the detachment.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We might say that Jovo Savic was

24 Radovan Antic's deputy. That might clarify things.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

Page 15543

1 Q. And what position was there next, following that of Jovo Savic?

2 Whether it be rank or position.

3 A. I have just said that there were these assistants of the commander

4 for certain tasks, and as I said, there were some other tasks that

5 assistants were needed for but these positions were vacant because no one

6 had been appointed to carry out these tasks. It wasn't necessary.

7 Q. Thank you. And you were assistant commander for logistics and

8 Simo Zaric was assistant commander for security?

9 A. Yes. I agree that that is so, although the titles were longer,

10 but to put it simply, yes, we might say that.

11 Q. Did you hold rank in the JNA in 1992?

12 A. I have already said here that I left the JNA without any rank. In

13 JNA, you can become a lance corporal or a private first class after doing

14 your military service. However, I did not earn that rank. I left the JNA

15 with no military rank and to this day I still have no military rank, not

16 even the rank of lance corporal, which is the lowest rank in the JNA.

17 Q. Thank you very much. Now, the method by which you were appointed

18 assistant commander for logistics was that Milos Bogdanovic recommended

19 you?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. This recommendation was made to you in early 1992?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. But in fact, the appointment came from Nikolic, who was the

24 commander of the 17th Tactical Group?

25 A. He was in charge of this sort of work. It couldn't have been done

Page 15544

1 by Milos Bogdanovic.

2 Q. You agree, don't you, that the appointment came from Nikolic who

3 was the commander of the 17th Tactical Group?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Had you had any dealings with him prior to that?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Had you had any experience in logistics?

8 A. As a soldier, I had no experience with logistics, but the rear in

9 fact or rather the work to do with logistics had to do with storage and

10 with providing for certain needs of the unit.

11 Q. Exactly. That is what logistics is all about, isn't it? It's for

12 the activities, whatever they may be, of the army or the military

13 formation? I'm sorry, I didn't get an answer to that.

14 A. I didn't think I needed to reply. Yes, one might say that, that

15 does mean support for the unit, yes.

16 Q. The person in charge of logistics is responsible for the supply of

17 ammunition to an armed formation?

18 MR. LUKIC: Excuse me, Your Honour.


20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have no objection to this line of

21 questioning but I do object in principle to this kind of question for the

22 same reason that Mr. Di Fazio objected to Mr. Pantelic's questions. Since

23 Mr. Tadic is indubitably not a military expert, then he could not know

24 whether this was the job of the assistant commander for logistics. This

25 line of questioning -- these are questions for experts, and Mr. Di Fazio

Page 15545

1 himself objected to the witness being treated as an expert witness. He

2 could be asked whether he -- this was his task, whether he knew it was his

3 task, whether anybody assigned him this task and so on.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: The witness has testified that he served for three

5 years in the JNA and that he served overseas in an important and sensitive

6 post for a start. He would have had an opportunity to clearly see the

7 operations of army formations in Suez. Furthermore, he was the man

8 appointed assistant commander for logistics. His very appointment dealt

9 with the very area in which I am cross-examining. If he is the assistant

10 commander of logistics he must be able to answer questions about

11 logistics. That's his own evidence. And he held that appointment for two

12 months.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: In fairness to Mr. Tadic, he did explain about his

14 military experiences, and it's only fair that you -- just ask him whether

15 he was in charge of that. He's not an expert. We all agree on that.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Very well, Your Honour, I'll approach it that way.

17 JUDGE WILLIAMS: And excuse me, Mr. Di Fazio, the other issue is

18 that he was the assistant commander of logistics and your question on page

19 96, line 4, says the person in charge of logistics.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Very well.

21 JUDGE WILLIAMS: That might be another distinction to make as

22 well.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, I'll take that on board and bear that in mind.

24 Thank you, Your Honours.

25 Q. Were you responsible for the supply of ammunition?

Page 15546

1 A. No. I wasn't responsible for any kind of supplies, including

2 ammunition.

3 Q. Nothing at all? Nothing at all? You weren't responsible for the

4 supply of anything at all?

5 A. At that time, there were no tasks assigned to me. I did not

6 supply the 4th Detachment either with weapons or ammunition or food or

7 clothing. If these are the tasks that we are talking about now.

8 Q. You provided an interview to officers of the OTP on the 26th of

9 March, 1996, did you not?

10 A. On the 26th of March, 1996? I gave a telephone interview to

11 Mrs. Marija Velikonja. Maybe it was 1998.

12 Q. My apologies, you're right, it was 1998, 26th of March, 1998.

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. And in the course of that interview, you endeavoured to be as

15 truthful and accurate as possible when you were answering the questions?

16 A. Just as I am now.

17 Q. And in the course of that interview, did you try and provide as

18 much detail as you could to the investigators?

19 A. What the investigators were asking me about at the moment, yes.

20 Q. Did you say this to the investigators? Who were asking you about

21 your position and your tasks?

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Excuse me, since evidently we will be

23 using this interview, I ask the Prosecutor to tell us the page, if he's

24 going to quote from the interview, so that it will be easier for us to

25 follow.

Page 15547

1 MR. DI FAZIO: Certainly, certainly. I'm referring to Exhibit

2 P138 ter and throughout my cross-examination I'll be using the ter

3 interviews in so far as Mr. Tadic's interviews are concerned, and of that

4 particular exhibit I'm referring to page 27.

5 Q. And you said this: "Well I had the honour of not doing anything.

6 The JNA had been a very organised army and had all the support services.

7 I was some kind of go-between. I was just there if things were needed.

8 For instance if uniforms were needed, I would be told how many people

9 needed uniforms and that was it. Some people would come, I would issue

10 them with whatever was needed and that's what I was doing. For instance,

11 people were given certain things that they needed and then they had to be

12 issued with them and they signed these receipts that they had received

13 something from the JNA. They signed and then they were issued with

14 whatever they needed." Did you supply uniforms, in the light of that

15 answer, do you say now that you didn't supply uniforms?

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lukic?

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I do not object to questions of this

18 nature but since I was listening to the interpretation from the booth, I

19 know that they do not have the text in front of them. I followed the

20 interpretation and it's not identical. I'm not blaming the interpreters,

21 they were listening to Mr. Di Fazio, so it would be fair to the witness to

22 put the document in front of him, because he should be able to look at the

23 document, which is an exhibit.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I only wish to say that on page 99,

25 line 1, this question has been fully answered. My previous testimony,

Page 15548

1 line 99, 1, up to the full stop, after the word JNA.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. Can the witness be shown Exhibit P138,

3 please? P138 ter.

4 Q. Mr. Tadic, just look at page 27 of that exhibit.

5 A. This is the English version here.

6 Q. If it's P138 ter it should have the B/C/S underneath the English.

7 All you have to do is go to page 27 of Exhibit P138 ter and you'll see

8 English followed by -- followed by B/C/S.

9 A. Oh, I see.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] To assist Mr. Tadic, the B/C/S version

11 is typed in italics, it's printed in italics, that will make it easier to

12 recognise.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What page did we say?


15 Q. 27, 27, 2-7.

16 A. I apologise. I just glanced at it and I thought it was in

17 English. Now I see it's a combination of English and B/C/S.

18 Q. Okay. Now, just cast your eye over the B/C/S answer in the middle

19 of the page, it starts off, "Well I had the honour of not doing

20 anything." Do you see that answer?

21 A. Yes. I have looked at this, but I would now like to draw

22 attention to the next answer, "No, this was issued by the competent

23 officer of the JNA because we had no documentation, all the documentation

24 was with the army."

25 Q. Thank you. Thank you for drawing our attention to that. Now

Page 15549

1 let's go back to the answer above. You say that you would be told how

2 many people needed uniforms, if uniforms were needed, I take it from that

3 part of your answer that you supplied uniforms. Is that correct?

4 A. No, it's not correct, because the way this is formulated, whoever

5 took this statement reached the same conclusion that you did, but then I

6 explained to Mrs. Agnes, no, this was issued by a person from the JNA who

7 was in charge of that. The logistics of the 4th Detachment --

8 Q. Don't let me interrupt you. Just finish your answer and then I'll

9 ask my question.

10 A. The logistics was in Pelagicevo for the 4th [as interpreted]

11 Tactical Group, and the 4th Detachment had no logistics except for the JNA

12 in Pelagicevo, and if I knew that they would need ten uniforms, as it says

13 up here, then I would either let them know or when I go to Pelagicevo,

14 when I went there I would tell them, because there was a lieutenant there

15 and I would say to him our people will come and you have to get ten

16 uniforms because he didn't have enough supplies in his warehouses in his

17 depots because he got those from the higher commands in Brcko [Realtime

18 transcript read in error "bish muchko"] or somewhere, I don't know where

19 exactly.

20 MR. LAZAREVIC: Excuse me one correction for the transcript in

21 page 100 line 23 it says 4th Tactical Group it should be 17th Tactical

22 Group.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, it will be corrected.


25 Q. If you can possibly answer my next questions with a yes or a no,

Page 15550

1 Mr. Tadic.

2 MR. PANTELIC: I do apologise to my learned friend for the sake of

3 clarity of the transcript, page 101, line 5, instead of "bish muchko" it

4 should be "Brcko," sorry, it's a little bit confusing.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: It should be what?

6 MR. PANTELIC: Brcko.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm grateful to Mr. Pantelic.

8 Q. Now, Mr. Tadic, if you could just answer my questions with a yes

9 or a no, if you can, do so. The interview was audio and video recorded,

10 yes or no?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You provided that answer at page 27, yes or no?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Go to page 27, go to that answer. It's only a minor point, Mr.

15 Tadic, it's only a minor point. You said if uniforms were needed I would

16 be told how many people needed uniforms and that was it.

17 Now, did you mean, when you gave that answer, back in the

18 interview room in 1998, that you were responsible for supplying uniforms?

19 A. No. I didn't mean it then, when I said it, and I immediately

20 clarified that in the following paragraph, because the same conclusion was

21 drawn by Mrs. Agnes, the same one that you drew yourself, and immediately

22 below, I said no, it was issued by the competent clerk of the Yugoslav

23 People's Army, because we had no documentation whatsoever. The entire

24 documentation was with the army, and you can find this on page 27, in the

25 following segment, which begins with the word "no."

Page 15551

1 Q. In that answer that I've directed your attention to, you say,

2 "Some people would come, I would issue them with whatever was needed, and

3 that was what I was doing." Tell the Chamber what you meant by those

4 words when you uttered them to the investigators back in 1998.

5 A. I meant what I've just told you. That paragraph, that paragraph

6 itself, meant that some people would come, meaning to the command of the

7 4th Detachment. Individual soldiers couldn't go there. It could have

8 been a company commander that would come there, because, for example, a

9 company would need supplies. Then that company commander would say, "I'm

10 just giving an example. So he would say, "Why don't you note it down that

11 I will need ten uniforms. And call them in Pelagicevo to tell them to

12 provide that for us." And then I or anybody else who would go to

13 Pelagicevo would take that note with us and hand it over in Pelagicevo.

14 Q. So your role as assistant commander for logistics of the 4th

15 Detachment was that of messenger; is that correct?

16 A. If you think that that's what it was, I agree.

17 Q. Other than that, you carried out no other activities in the 4th

18 Detachment?

19 A. I carried out no other activities in the 4th Detachment.

20 Q. Did you ever query your appointment as assistant commander for

21 logistics in light of the fact that you were doing essentially nothing?

22 Apart from carrying messages?

23 A. I never queried this because it suited me just fine to do nothing.

24 Q. Was Mr. Zaric busy carrying out activities as assistant commander

25 for security in the 4th Detachment?

Page 15552

1 A. Nobody was busy in the sense of employed in the 4th Detachment.

2 We did that on a voluntary basis so all of us had our tasks, Zaric and

3 me. We would occasionally stop by the 4th Detachment and carry out some

4 modest activities and as for Mr. Zaric he will tell you about his own

5 activities so we were not employed in the 4th Detachment. At least that's

6 the interpretation I received.

7 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... 3, line 12,

8 all of us had our businesses, meaning we had our business to do. Other

9 businesses than 4th Detachment.


11 Q. You've heard --

12 A. That's not what I meant. What I meant was that all of us had our

13 professional duties. I was in a restaurant. I had my own coffee bar.

14 And I worked there as somebody running a coffee bar, and I would go to the

15 4th Detachment occasionally, spend an hour, half an hour, sometimes five

16 hours, there, and then I would go back to my coffee bar and run my

17 business. That was done by Radovan Antic, Jovo Savic, Simo Zaric, and

18 everybody else from a private to a commander. Soldiers also had their

19 jobs to do. They worked in factories, in shops, and companies, and

20 occasionally they would be engaged once or twice, which is what I've

21 mentioned before, during those months, they went to a shooting range and

22 in the meantime, everybody else did their jobs at home or in their

23 companies, and this is what I meant when I said our tasks or our jobs.

24 Q. So the only activity conducted as a unit by the 4th Detachment

25 was, one, target practice, and something else because you said one or

Page 15553

1 two. What was the second activity that the 4th Detachment engaged in?

2 That is in the time from its inception to April 16th. Apart from target

3 practice.

4 A. Nothing else was done, except for what I said a few days ago,

5 which is that two meetings were held, at which the role of the 4th

6 Detachment was discussed. That was a gathering at which this issue was

7 discussed. Other than that, the 4th Detachment had no other activities.

8 Neither soldiers nor the commanding officers, commanding officers might

9 have met a few times during that period of time, but all they discussed

10 were some ordinary, regularly issues that they were told should be

11 discussed.

12 Q. Thank you. What was the role of the 4th Detachment? What was its

13 task?

14 A. I've said before that the Yugoslav People's Army, as an army, had

15 a task to defend the constitutional order of its state. The 4th

16 Detachment was a unit of that army, a lower level unit, and if one could

17 say so, it had the same task but at a lower level.

18 Q. Was its task to prevent the infiltration of enemy forces into

19 Bosnia and Herzegovina? Particularly in the area of Bosanski Samac?

20 A. At a particular point in time, upon receiving orders from the

21 commanders, the task of the 4th Detachment would be to prevent the

22 incursion of enemy forces, if the command should decide that those were

23 enemy forces. So it wasn't the 4th Detachment that decided which enemy

24 forces were hostile. That was determined by the command. So if the

25 command should announce that enemy forces had arrived and we needed to

Page 15554

1 take action, then the detachment would take action.

2 Q. Yes. I know that the command generally decides upon orders. I'm

3 not asking you if commands decide upon orders. My question is this: Was

4 the 4th Detachment -- was one of its roles to prevent enemy infiltration

5 into the area in which it operated?

6 A. Yes. With the proviso that I mentioned they didn't do it on their

7 own initiative but upon orders.

8 Q. And you ever testified yourself that across the border, war was

9 raging? Do you recall that testimony?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did that present a threat that the 4th Detachment was going to

12 meet, the possibility of war spilling over into Bosnia and Herzegovina?

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think that the witness is asked to

14 speculate as to what the 4th Detachment do. He said that the command had

15 to give orders --

16 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll rephrase my question.

17 Q. Did the 4th Detachment have any contingency plans in the event of

18 infiltration, given that that's what its function was?

19 A. I've said that the 4th Detachment did not have specific tasks.

20 However, its task was to prevent potential incursion, and should such

21 situation arise, the 4th Detachment would be -- would have been issued

22 orders to carry out activities in the area where there were enemy forces.

23 Q. I'm asking you were there any contingency orders already existing

24 in the event of such a thing happening?

25 A. I don't know about that, but most likely, had something like that

Page 15555

1 happened, the 4th Detachment would have been given orders.

2 Q. What would you have done in that event, do you know? As assistant

3 commander of logistics, I mean.

4 A. Whatever the commander ordered. I couldn't do anything on my own

5 initiative but had the commander told me to take a rifle and go as an

6 ordinary rank and file soldier to the area where there was firing going

7 on, I would have done it. Had the commander told me to go and set up a

8 kitchen, I would have done that. So it all depended on the orders given

9 to me by the commander.

10 Q. Can we turn now to the night of the 16th and 17th of April?

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours just bear with me for a moment?

12 There is a matter I need to discuss with my colleague.


14 [Prosecution counsel confer]


16 Q. How long were you a soldier in the 4th Detachment?

17 A. I've already said that that was early January, and one could say

18 that it was until the 22nd or 23rd of April, 1992. So from early January

19 up until April of 1992. Or rather the hostilities broke out on the 17th,

20 so some three to four days after that, and one can say that my

21 participation in the 4th Detachment was over on the 22nd or 23rd of April.

22 Q. And never resumed again?

23 A. I never resumed it again. And if you're interested, the records

24 show me as somebody who did not participate in the war. I have no veteran

25 privileges.

Page 15556

1 Q. Did you ever go to Belgrade on behalf of the Crisis Staff? To

2 carry out any task at all?

3 A. I can't say that I went on behalf of the Crisis Staff. I went

4 there because of the tasks and assignments that I had, that most often had

5 to do with exchanges. I was never given travel orders by the Crisis

6 Staff. The Crisis Staff never told me go to Belgrade and do this and

7 that.

8 Q. And specifically in respect of those tasks and assignments to do

9 with exchanges, you did not go to Belgrade to deal with those tasks and

10 assignments relating to exchanges on behalf of the Crisis Staff?

11 A. I know exactly what you're talking about. The document that you

12 have in mind, that you intend to present or to discuss, is something that

13 I've already mentioned. That was the document that had to do with my trip

14 to Belgrade where I went to get consent for exchange in Lipovac, which was

15 carried out on the 5th of July, 1992. I went to Belgrade, not knowing

16 what were the preconditions that I should meet, and when I came to the

17 Yugoslav commission, the gentleman at the helm of that commission, his

18 name was Mirko Strbac, told me that he would do all those things that I

19 told you about here. He would ask for a permission to pass through from

20 Yugoslavia, from UNPROFOR and so on, and he said that there needed to be a

21 request sent in for that. I told him that I had no request, and he said,

22 well, let's draw up one, and we drew up a request asking the competent

23 authorities to enable us to carry out the exchange. I signed the document

24 that has no stamp or anything else, just in order to satisfy the formal

25 requirement in order to receive permission to go through the UNPA zone in

Page 15557

1 Lipovac in July of 1992.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: May I confer with my colleague for another moment,

4 if Your Honours please?

5 [Prosecution counsel confer]


7 Q. Do you know if Simo Zaric ever conferred or spoke to Mijo

8 Matanovic, by radio, I mean, as part of the exchange system?

9 A. I know that Simo Zaric went to the communication centre several

10 times, and had talks there. However, we never went there together, either

11 he would talk and I would listen or I would talk and he would listen. So

12 that I don't know whom he talked with. I don't know that apart from what

13 I heard here during the trial. That means that we were never there

14 together talking to somebody on the Croatian side of Odzak municipality

15 simultaneously at the same time.

16 Q. Yes. Thank you.

17 Now, the night of the 16th and 17th of April. You said that in

18 your evidence on Friday, I believe, that you heard the sound of shooting

19 during the course of the night and you had to wave a flag and that you saw

20 camouflaged men, armed men, do you recall that evidence?

21 A. I remember that. You listed it the way it suited you, but every

22 event is a separate event, meaning that I heard shooting during the night.

23 It was on the 17th of April, at 9.00 in the morning when my house was

24 fired at. I can assure you of that.

25 Q. In any event, it was an armed small band of man in camouflage

Page 15558

1 uniforms fired weapons at your house and you were, I take it, almost

2 seriously wounded, lucky not to be wounded?

3 A. I was never wounded, and it was just as you put it.

4 Q. At that point, you were unable to identify the men who were

5 shooting and firing the guns?

6 A. I was unable to identify them because I didn't know them. I said

7 that there were some locals among them, or rather had there been any

8 locals among them, I would have probably warned them not to shoot at my

9 house.

10 Q. Is that what went through your mind at the time? The thought that

11 they must be -- they must be non-locals because they are shooting at your

12 house?

13 A. I was sure that they weren't.

14 Q. It was therefore an extraordinary situation that you found

15 yourself in, in this sense: You'd heard firing throughout the night, now

16 your house was being fired upon; bullets were ricocheting off the walls

17 near you. All of those things are correct, aren't they?

18 A. This is what is correct: I heard the shooting coming from the

19 direction of the bridge and the shooting that occurred at 9.00 a.m. is not

20 related to the shooting that took place during the night. That was an

21 isolated incident. The shooting at 9.00 a.m. at my house. It lasted

22 maybe half a minute or maybe less. So until I raised a white garment, it

23 went on only until I raised it. Maybe some half a minute or less. During

24 the night, that night, there was no firing in the vicinity of my house,

25 and my house was not fired at.

Page 15559

1 Q. Would you say that your assessment was that the town was under

2 attack?

3 A. That's right.

4 Q. Your evidence on Friday was that the shooting was coming from the

5 direction of the bridge, people who were at your cafe who could get away,

6 drove away, others had to take refuge in your house. Do you recall that?

7 Do you recall that?

8 A. Yes, I recall that, and that's how it was. However, the bridge is

9 about a kilometre and a half from my house as the crow flies, maybe even

10 more.

11 Q. All right. Well, it's a kilometre and a half as the crow flies

12 but Bosanski Samac was obviously undergoing some unusual event, wasn't

13 it? There was shooting from the bridge during the night, your house gets

14 fired, you have to fly a white flag of surrender. Now that wasn't until

15 the 16th and 17th of April was anything but normal, do you agree?

16 A. It wasn't normal, and something like that never took place up

17 until the 16th or 17th of April.

18 Q. Now, given that your assessment was the town was under attack,

19 what did you do, in so far as the 4th Detachment is concerned, to deal

20 with the situation?

21 A. I didn't do anything because nothing was ordered to me. Had I

22 been ordered anything, I would have probably carried out an order.

23 Q. Didn't it even occur to you to try and ring the commanders of the

24 4th Detachment to see if some action was required? I mean the town --

25 your assessment was the town was under attack.

Page 15560

1 A. During my testimony, you probably heard that the telephones were

2 disconnected or were not operational, and did not start working until some

3 8.00 in the morning, around that time, if you remember that's what was

4 said here during the testimony.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Perhaps we'll pick this up tomorrow if Your Honours

6 please. It's 4.30.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes we will adjourn and continue our proceedings

8 tomorrow.

9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

10 4.31 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

11 the 20th day of February, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.