Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 17244

1 Monday, 24 March 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning, please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. Case number IT-95-9-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Miroslav Tadic, and Simo Zaric.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, we are starting with the response by the

10 Prosecution to the joint Defence motion for leave to assign a new military

11 expert.

12 MR. RE: The Defence have filed a joint motion seeking leave to

13 assign a new military expert witness pursuant to Rule 94 bis. I say at

14 the outset -- I won't be very long but I say at the outset the Prosecution

15 does not oppose a Defence request to call expert evidence on a relevant

16 topic, which is before the Trial Chamber, which requires the development

17 of expert expertise. The Defence motion seems to say that the motion --

18 the report or expert's report it filed earlier of Colonel Barasin's would

19 fall within the category which it is now trying to -- in which it is now

20 trying to call a Defence witness.

21 The Trial Chamber last year proprio moto rejected the filing of

22 Colonel Barasin's report, I think describing it as "unhelpful". An

23 objective reading of that report would indicate that it wasn't doing quite

24 what the Defence wanted it to do or indicates they are trying to do now,

25 that is to file objective expert testimony in relation to the conflict in

Page 17245

1 Bosanski Samac in 1992 and 1993, and expert evidence as to the role and

2 function of the military or militaries during the indictment period

3 relating to the conflicting parties. At this stage of the trial, the

4 Prosecutor still of course at the end of it has to prove that there was an

5 international armed conflict in relation to the Article 2 charge, which

6 only of course relates to the charge of unlawful deportation or

7 transfer -- sorry the unlawful transfer because deportation is of course a

8 charge under Article 5 which doesn't require an international armed

9 conflict. So it relates only to a very small portion of the entire

10 Prosecution case, that is the transfer of people not over the border into

11 Croatia but to other parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time.

12 The test -- withdraw that. The Prosecutor filed a motion in 1998

13 for this Trial Chamber or the pre-Trial Chamber to take judicial notice of

14 the internationality of the conflict. The pre-Trial Chamber said it had

15 to be proved at trial. That was in 1999 and subsequent to that of course

16 it's been the Aleksovski judgement. I'll just hand up copies of the

17 relevant pages of the judgement to assist the Trial Chamber and my learned

18 friends as to the appropriate test.

19 If I can take Your Honours to page 52. The previous page said

20 what is the applicable law on this issue and the Appeals Chamber in

21 paragraph 125, about halfway down, set out what is important is whether

22 the subsequent case, the legal principle enunciated in the Tadic judgement

23 has to "overall control" may be applied in relation to the conflict

24 between the Bosnian Croats and the Bosnian Muslims in Bosnia-Herzegovina

25 and so on. Down the page, the same question arises from the facts of the

Page 17246

1 instant case, that is the level of control by a state --

2 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please slow down while

3 reading.

4 MR. RE: That is the level of control by state or entity [Croatia

5 or the army of the -- I apologise, Your Honour, the hard copy of the

6 judgement I have of the next page is missing and I have handed up a

7 printout. Could I borrow one of the Defence ones for one moment?

8 Thank you, Mr. Usher.

9 The words I was using, Croatia or the army of the Republic of

10 Croatia, HV, or a military group, the HVO, that was engaged in an armed

11 conflict that was prima facie internal. It is therefore perfectly proper

12 in the instant case to record and rely upon the legal principle enunciated

13 in the Tadic judgement.

14 The Appeal's Chamber's conclusion was that it was Aleksovski

15 applying the Tadic principle was that it was the overall control test

16 which was the important one. I emphasise that is subsequent to the

17 earlier motion in this case. And of course, Your Honours have heard a

18 great deal of evidence, including of course in the Defence case, led from

19 the various Defence witnesses, of a conflict occurring between the

20 Republic of Croatia or forces under the control of the Republic of

21 Croatia, whether it be the HVO or the HV, that is the Republic of Croatia

22 army itself. In fact, as recently as Friday, we heard evidence from the

23 witness sitting here at the moment as to Croatian shelling and the

24 involvement of the troops of the Republika Srpska against troops from the

25 Republic of Croatia.

Page 17247

1 So I just say, I put that in -- put it into context. There has

2 been a lot of evidence in this case as to a conflict and shells going

3 backwards and forwards across the Sava River into Bosanski Samac and

4 fighting on the ground between the forces of the two armies and of course

5 there has also been reference to forces of the Bosnian federal -- the

6 Bosnian state army, the ABiH. So if the Defence are to present such

7 evidence, it has to be highly relevant and on the point, that is that

8 there was no international armed conflict at the relevant time between

9 the -- Croatia, Serbia, the Bosnian government, the HVO, or whatever other

10 forces not alleged to be involved in the international armed conflict

11 which the Defence apparently is saying did not occur during the indictment

12 period.

13 That's the first point.

14 The second point is as to the scope outside of the

15 internationality question of the expertise or the evidence given on the

16 role of the military. Now, the Prosecution of course has no objection

17 to -- it couldn't -- to the Defence calling proper military expert of the

18 military expert -- evidence of the command and control within the JNA or

19 the Republika Srpska forces, the VRS, or any other army. It may be

20 helpful to the Trial Chamber and it is certainly something the Prosecution

21 would not object to. However we do take issue with the statement that

22 paragraph 4 of the Defence motion, that "authoritatively identifying a

23 conflict" and "international armed conflict" requires a great deal of

24 scholarship, expertise, and investigation. The Prosecution submission

25 will be in this particular case, the facts very much speak for themselves.

Page 17248

1 But if they are to produce another report, in our submission it

2 has to be confined to the relevant issues and it cannot stray into the

3 areas which Colonel Barasin's attempted report did, that is making many

4 assertions, conclusions, and statements which were not supported by

5 evidence or which did not show the facts or the underlying facts upon

6 which the conclusions were based, which is in great contrast to the expert

7 reports the Prosecution put in, those of Dr. Tabeau and Dr. Donia which

8 were academically rigorous studies, properly footnoted and properly

9 sourced, so the summary the Prosecution doesn't object to a proper

10 expert's report if it is so confined to the relevant issue, that is

11 whether or not it was international and command and control issues within

12 the JNA and the VRS. Those are my submissions.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well. Thank you very much.

15 The Trial Chamber will give its ruling in due course.

16 In the meantime, we proceed with the witness, Mr. Pantelic.


18 [Witness answered through interpreter]

19 MR. PANTELIC: Good morning, yes.

20 Further cross-examination by Mr. Pantelic:

21 [Continued]

22 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Savic.

23 A. Good morning.

24 Q. We won't go for very long today. I hope you've had a rest over

25 the weekend. I just have a few more questions and then I'll finish.

Page 17249

1 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have Exhibit P127, please, ter.

2 Q. [Interpretation] While the document is being looked for, this is

3 an information that you've signed, Prosecutor asked you on Friday, on page

4 45, whether in relation to this information you're stating that the Crisis

5 Staff was the one who organised the documents regarding the persecutions

6 and you said yes it was. Now, can you have a look at this information?

7 If you can find the place, whether it says anywhere that the Crisis Staff,

8 that is the War Presidency, was the one that was implementing the

9 documents of persecution against the non-Serb population? Can you please

10 find the place where it actually says that.

11 A. On which page?

12 Q. Well, I don't know. You have to find it. I'm saying that there

13 isn't such an information. You said to the Prosecutor that when you were

14 writing this information, you said that this was the -- done by the Crisis

15 Staff and the War Presidency, now what I'm saying is that I want you to

16 find out this in this information.

17 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, we have difficulty seeing one another

18 around this column that we have between us. Just as a matter of

19 clarification, it might well just be the translation, but I'm a little

20 confused as to page 6, lines -- well, 3 and 4, concerning the Crisis

21 Staff -- this is your question, Mr. Pantelic, where you are talking about

22 the Crisis Staff, then you say that is the War Presidency, and you go on

23 to talk about it implementing the documents of persecution. I'm sorry,

24 I'm not with you. I say it might be a matter of translation but what are

25 the documents of persecution against the non-Serb population? If you

Page 17250

1 could maybe clarify for me, please?

2 MR. PANTELIC: Certainly, Your Honour. I didn't say that in that

3 form so maybe it's a matter for translation. I will clarify it. I will

4 repeat my question.

5 Q. [Interpretation] So, Mr. Savic, you said to the Prosecutor on

6 Friday, on page 45, when you were discussing this document, you said that

7 the Crisis Staff, and later on the War Presidency, practically implemented

8 a campaign of discrimination and terror against the non-Serb population.

9 Now, what I'm asking you here in this information that among other things

10 you signed, is there anywhere, can you find it anywhere, exactly the part

11 where it says -- which is relating to the Crisis Staff, that is the War

12 Presidency, that they were the one who is were implementing this? So I'm

13 not talking about the volunteers, I'm not talking the police, you were

14 explaining this. What I'm interested in directly is precisely this part.

15 Please.

16 A. On page 2, paragraph 2, it says, "From the beginning of the war,

17 to start with the Crisis Staff and later on the War Presidency of the

18 municipality of Bosanski Samac, came under the influence of a couple of

19 individuals."

20 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please slow down?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course, this is just an

22 information -- this is just an information which had a purpose, to point

23 to certain things, as I've explained, to some negative occurrences to some

24 things that the army wasn't in agreement with. But who was responsible

25 for the deportation, for people being relocated? I think it's the Crisis

Page 17251

1 Staff that's responsible for that. That's my opinion but I don't know

2 that. Perhaps it's somebody else. [Realtime transcript read in error

3 "Q."] Who else would be the most responsible for that part of the work

4 other than the Crisis Staff?


6 Q. [Interpretation] So this is just your assumption, is it?

7 MR. LAZAREVIC: I apologise, it would probably occur as a problem

8 here in the transcript because last sentence that the witness said was who

9 else would be the most responsible for that part, and here it is recorded

10 as a question so this might suggest that it was a question posed by

11 Mr. Pantelic, so it should be corrected instead of Q in front.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, yes. It's a continuation of the answer of the

13 witness.


15 Q. [Interpretation] So this wasn't heard when I asked you. This

16 is -- this was just your assumption?

17 A. Yes, it's my opinion, my assumption.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. PANTELIC: I'm finished with this document.

20 Q. [Interpretation] Further on, Mr. Re asked you regarding the

21 telegrams, that is a series of telegrams of the 17th Corps of the 2nd

22 Military District and so on, in those telegrams, you explained to him, and

23 to me, that the term of the Serb TO doesn't exist. This was just an

24 assumption of the commander Nikolic and Simo Zaric and so on and those

25 parts in those telegrams. Do you remember that?

Page 17252

1 A. Yes, I do. I said I remember that in Samac, there was no Serb TO,

2 no Serb TO in Samac. But I do recall that in Batkusa they were

3 established and they called themselves staff of the Samac municipality.

4 Q. I haven't asked the question yet. Just slow down.

5 A. Very well.

6 MR. PANTELIC: P21, please.

7 Q. [Interpretation] I have a few questions.

8 MR. PANTELIC: It would be convenient for the interpreters' booth

9 maybe we could have English version on the ELMO so that they can follow

10 and the B/C/S version in front of the witness. So it's up to our friends

11 from --

12 THE INTERPRETER: Thank you very much, the interpreters would

13 appreciate that.

14 MR. PANTELIC: I don't know if it would be familiar.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Maybe because the interpreters would like to have --

16 MR. RE: Your Honour, could Mr. Pantelic point me to the page in

17 the transcript where I referred to this document? I'm just having some

18 difficulty locating it.

19 MR. PANTELIC: It is -- Your Honour, the topic is the Serbian TO

20 in the events between -- in the night 16 to 17. I have in fact three

21 documents to discuss with this witness with regard to that issue because

22 there are some chronologically issues which should be clarified, the

23 previous statement of this witness. It's P21, P22, P23, and P19. In

24 fact, these are the four documents, military documents.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Re is asking where in the page of the

Page 17253

1 transcript he referred to those matters in cross-examination.

2 MR. RE: Specifically this document, P23, I don't recall asking

3 the witness about this particular document. I'm just asking my learned

4 friend can point me to the page in the transcript where I did. I just

5 can't find it at the moment.

6 MR. PANTELIC: In fact, Your Honour, if I may clarify, sorry --

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic?

9 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour, in fact, I'm referring to the

10 topic in general terms. In order to clarify certain details in this

11 topic, I have to make reference to these four documents. So that is the

12 basis of the introduction or discussion of these documents with this

13 witness.


15 MR. RE: Your Honour --

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Re? You're still --

17 MR. RE: Yes, I do object to that. I asked the witness about two

18 specific documents, there are obviously other documents in evidence. It

19 is unclear what Mr. Pantelic's purpose is. I showed the witness two

20 documents, that doesn't entitle him then to go on and ask the witness

21 about other unrelated documents written by other people perhaps referring

22 to the same events.

23 In my submission, there is no forensic purpose that can arise in

24 relation to these other documents because I didn't refer to them in

25 relation to affecting the interests of his client in re-cross-examination

Page 17254

1 as opposed to the chance he had in cross-examination. There is simply

2 nothing in the other documents which arose, in my submission, affecting

3 the interests of his client because I didn't refer to them.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: And you are talking about documents P21?

5 MR. RE: P23, the one which Mr. Pantelic is now referring to, and

6 the other one. I referred to two of the four. I took the witness through

7 two of the four. The other two I didn't.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: So you are objecting in relation to P23.

9 MR. RE: Yes.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: And P21?

11 MR. RE: Yes. I'm not sure about P21.

12 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, I mean, I don't know, maybe my learned

13 friend --

14 JUDGE MUMBA: No. Let me hear from Mr. Re first.

15 MR. PANTELIC: I'm sorry.

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Which particular documents?

17 MR. RE: I took the witness to P19 and the document that Major

18 General Jankovic signed, which is -- excuse me. P23. So P23 and P19.

19 P19 and P23 were the two document I took the witness to, the one by

20 Jankovic and the one -- and the other one. I can't see it on the screen.

21 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, my learned friend --

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Those are the two documents, P19 ter and P23 ter.

23 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic?

25 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you. My learned friend on Friday, it's at

Page 17255

1 page 51, line -- it's line 12 until 16, he asked this witness with regard

2 to the Croatian forces coming from Republic of Croatia, attempting an

3 infantry attack across the bridge. This witness said no, there was no

4 such forces. And furthermore, all the topics raised by the Prosecution

5 with this witness, with regard to the involvement of the elements of 17th

6 Tactical Group and with regard to the operation in the night between 16

7 and 17 April, was discussed quite detailed with this witness.

8 So we cannot see isolated, for example, one document which is P19,

9 which is a telegram between -- telegram sent by command of 17th corps to

10 the higher command, without knowing the special report of the superior

11 command sent only half -- one hour and a half before this document. So in

12 terms of clarification, we have in totality, I have -- analysis of various

13 documents, exhibits, in order to find the right solution and to finally

14 challenge, if I may say, even the credibility of this witness, because

15 with this stage, with these proceedings we can only find the two. Not to

16 mention in the previous proceedings, during re-examination, for example,

17 our learned friend, Ms. Reidy introduced on numerous occasions various

18 documents through the witnesses during re-examination.

19 So it won't be take long. I will just make a point in these four

20 documents which may assist this Trial Chamber in relation to the -- these

21 proceedings and specifically with regard to my client, because I will

22 emphasise again, the position of the Defence of Mr. Blagoje Simic is that

23 he is -- he was not a part of this military operation, by any means, and I

24 have to defend my client, I have to properly present his Defence, and

25 that's why, because this is a practically last military witness, fact

Page 17256

1 witness, from Samac. He was a former commander for the detachment -- from

2 him.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well, Mr. Pantelic, the Trial Chamber will

4 allow you to explore that possibility of the Defence for your client in

5 relation to -- I'm sure it's in relation to the role of the Crisis Staff

6 and the War Presidency.

7 MR. PANTELIC: Absolutely.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well.

9 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Savic, you see before you an interim report

11 of the 17th of April of the command of the 2nd Military District, seated

12 in Sarajevo. This interim report was delivered to the operation centre of

13 the Main Staff of the armed forces of the SFRY. Is that correct?

14 A. I see this for the very first time. It's like -- yes, it is as

15 you say. It's probably that.

16 Q. Mr. Savic, whatever I ask you in relation to these documents I am

17 not asking you only whether you've seen these documents before but whether

18 this is what it says in the document and the Trial Chamber will assess

19 because this is the Prosecution document, they will see whether this is

20 authoritative.

21 A. This is what it says.

22 Q. Excellent. In this document, do you see anywhere mentioned Crisis

23 Staff of the Bosanski Samac municipality and Pelagicevo, that they have

24 taken over the municipality of Samac?

25 A. At the end of the day, it says there are indications that the

Page 17257

1 enemy could strike against, steps are being taken to prevent the attack

2 and disarm the remaining enemy forces. That's what it says. And civilian

3 authorities being established.

4 Q. In the first paragraph of this report, it says that the vital

5 facilities have been taken in the night of the 17th of April. Is this --

6 is this correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Further on, it says that because of many conflicts and incidents

9 that preceded the attempt of the Croatian forces to cross over the Sava

10 River, that that would be basis for the intervention. That's the second

11 sentence. Do you agree with the second sentence?

12 A. Let me just find the spot.

13 MR. RE: I object to this line of questioning. As I understand

14 it, Your Honour's ruling was confined to the Crisis Staff and things which

15 affected the interests of Mr. Pantelic's client. This is going through

16 line by line and asking whether the witness agrees with someone else's

17 document.

18 MR. PANTELIC: Because, Your Honour, in response to a question of

19 my learned friend, this witness said there was not any action of the

20 Croatian forces across the bridge. That was his answer to the question of

21 my learned friend. And now we have another evidence with completely

22 different angle. So I just want to clarify it with the witness, is it

23 true or not, what was said in this report.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Perhaps to expedite matters, the witness can read on

25 his own and then you ask -- you put the question to him because the

Page 17258

1 documents are before the Trial Chamber. They are part of the evidence so

2 we can read instead of reading line by line.

3 MR. PANTELIC: Okay, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: But otherwise, you are within your rights to proceed

5 with the questioning of the witness.

6 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.

7 Q. [Interpretation] So, Mr. Savic, as we read this document, which

8 was created on the basis of some reports from the field, tell me, on the

9 basis of your personal knowledge, were any attempts made by the Croatian

10 armed forces to cross the bridge on the Sava River?

11 A. The Croatian Army, from Croatia, I don't think that they made any

12 attempts to cross the bridge on the Sava. I don't know about that. But

13 the Croatian artillery did target the town of Samac. That's what I said.

14 But it was on the Bosna River on the bridge near Prud where they tried to

15 carry out an attack.

16 Q. So that is the next proposition, it has to do with Prud, so we've

17 clarified that. Now, on the basis of your very own knowledge, the

18 elements of the 17th Tactical Group and then of the Serb TO and the

19 militia, did they take the vital facilities in the town of Samac?

20 A. I don't know about the elements of the tactical group. If you're

21 referring to the 4th Detachment, I am sure, and I claim, that none of us

22 took any facilities. Later on, we tried to keep them by engaging men from

23 the detachment and that was that.

24 Q. Furthermore, what is your personal knowledge in this regard, that

25 isolated persons opened fire at the Serb forces and at citizens? Because

Page 17259

1 that is what this report also says. Were there any such situations after

2 the 17th?

3 A. I don't really understand your question. What does this mean,

4 "isolated persons"? What are you trying to say.

5 Q. That's what it says in this military document. You're an

6 officer. I don't know either. You explain this to us. What is your

7 understanding of this?

8 A. Well, my highest level was up to the TG and Ninkovic [as

9 interpreted] and contacts with him. But all the rest, higher levels, I

10 have no idea who wrote what and all that. I don't know.

11 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Excuse me, Mr. Pantelic, I think we have a bit of

12 a confusion here in terms of the use of this word "isolated." Because the

13 English translation of the document that I have in front of me talks about

14 "individuals who opened fire on our forces and citizens have been

15 isolated." But in your question to Mr. Savic, in the translation, you're

16 talking about isolated persons doing the firing, which is not in keeping

17 with the document. I can't see the line off-hand now.

18 MR. PANTELIC: You mean page 15, line 14 and 15?

19 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Exactly right, yes, yes.

20 MR. PANTELIC: Maybe it's a matter of translation, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Yes. Because in your question as translated it

22 talks -- you're asking about isolated persons opening fire, which doesn't

23 make any sense.

24 MR. PANTELIC: Absolutely. Maybe that's a matter of translation.

25 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. And just one small correction in the

Page 17260

1 transcript on page 15, line 23, here it says "and Ninkovic" and it's

2 referring to Colonel Nikolic.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Instead of Ninkovic the name should be Nikolic?

4 MR. LAZAREVIC: Precisely, Your Honour.


6 Q. [Interpretation] You see, Mr. Savic, it says here persons who are

7 isolated and who opened fire against our citizens in town. Just tell me,

8 did this happen in Samac?

9 A. No.

10 Q. You say -- also it says here that there were cases that civilians

11 moved out, did that happen?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Further on it says here in the telegram that many members of the

14 former municipal leadership fled to the Republic of Croatia. Do you have

15 any personal knowledge about that?

16 A. No, I do not.

17 Q. Finally, Mr. Savic, you see the stamp down here on this document,

18 the date is the 17th of April, 1992. It says that it was sent at 1545

19 hours, is that not being contested?

20 A. I see that.

21 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you. Could we have now document P19, please?

22 JUDGE WILLIAMS: While that's being brought up, just going back to

23 this term "isolated," your question again on lines 20 and 21, again might

24 be a translation problem. But the way it reads, again, is not in keeping

25 with the document because your question to Mr. Savic is: "It says here

Page 17261

1 persons who are isolated and who opened fire against our citizens in

2 town." The document, on the other hand, which now has disappeared off the

3 screen in front of me talked about persons who opened fire against our

4 forces and citizens, and just doing this by memory now, and who have been

5 isolated.

6 So they opened fire and then they were isolated. The way again it

7 reads now is these persons were isolated and then they opened fire. Which

8 is in contradistinction to what the actual document is saying.

9 MR. PANTELIC: Absolutely. So I will put this question on

10 English. Maybe that will be clarify the situation, or I clarify that with

11 the witness.

12 JUDGE WILLIAMS: No. I don't think you need to do that,

13 Mr. Pantelic, but just for the sake of the record I was just saying

14 that --

15 MR. PANTELIC: I agree with you.

16 JUDGE WILLIAMS: But we have the document. I don't think it

17 serves any purpose in --

18 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Your Honour. Maybe we could have the

19 English version on the ELMO for the benefit of the interpreters and then

20 the B/C/S version in front of the witness.

21 Q. [Interpretation] So in this document that was sent, you see the

22 stamp, it was at 1730 on the 17th of April?

23 A. Could you repeat your question? I didn't hear what you were

24 saying.

25 Q. Could you please look at the stamp down here. You can see that

Page 17262

1 this stamp was sent or received, received practically, on the 17th of

2 April, at 1730 hours. Is that correct?

3 A. Yes, that's correct.

4 Q. So after the previous document, right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. This is a document of the 17th Corps, informing the commander of

7 the 2nd Military District in Sarajevo, where Kukanjac is commander and

8 they inform him about the situation in the area. Is that right?

9 A. Yes, that's right.

10 Q. In that document, it also says that members of the TO and the MUP

11 of the Serb municipality took control of certain facilities. Is that

12 right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Again, in this document, it says that forces from the Republic of

15 Croatia attempted an infantry attack across the bridge. Is that right?

16 A. That's what it says here but it's not correct.

17 Q. All right.

18 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have now, please, document P23, please?

19 Q. [Interpretation] In the meantime, until the document is found,

20 here was the 4th Detachment collect information from the area of

21 responsibility of your --

22 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please slow down. This is

23 too fast.


25 Q. [Interpretation] I'll repeat the question. You from the area of

Page 17263

1 responsibility of the 4th Detachment, you collect information and you send

2 it to the superior command or rather the 17th Tactical Group. Is that

3 correct?

4 A. Yes, that is correct.

5 Q. The command of the --

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic, remember to pause and the witness

7 should also pause after listening to your question before beginning to

8 answer. The interpreters are having difficulties.

9 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, I do apologise.

10 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Savic, could you please pause a few seconds

11 after my question and then answer. The same goes for me. So my question

12 was the following: When the commander of the 17th Tactical Group collects

13 information from the ground, from all detachments, then it compiles some

14 kind of daily report of its own and then it sends it further on to the

15 corps. Is that right?

16 A. Yes, that's right.

17 Q. When the 17th Corps from its own tactical groups, the operative

18 group 1 from the 17th Tactical Group, et cetera, collects all information,

19 then they send a daily report to the 2nd military district in Sarajevo.

20 Is that correct?

21 A. Most probably.

22 Q. What I'm interested in is the following: All information that

23 comes to the 17th Tactical Group, inter alia, includes information from

24 the 4th Detachment from the ground. Is that right?

25 A. Yes, that's right.

Page 17264

1 Q. So why would anybody then, along these higher lines, forge or

2 change information because you have just said that you do not -- that you

3 do not --

4 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please wait for the end of the

5 interpretation?

6 MR. LAZAREVIC: First of all, these datas have been faked, and if

7 they are fake who faked them and why fake them? This is nothing that this

8 witness could be aware about. He already said that his highest command

9 was 17th Tactical Group and anything further in this military here is

10 something unknown to him.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Mr. Pantelic, you did ask in fact the witness

12 earlier on that the 17th Tactical Group command collected information from

13 other detachments as well, so -- and the witness did explain his level of

14 knowledge. He was only dealing with the 4th Detachment. So that was only

15 one segment. So these reports from the higher command which was above him

16 cannot be explained by this witness.

17 MR. PANTELIC: Okay.

18 Q. [Interpretation] If your 17th Tactical Group informs the corps

19 about the following that in the zone of responsibility of the 4th

20 Detachment certain things are going on, who can this -- who can the 17th

21 Tactical Group get this information from if it's not the 4th Detachment?

22 In which way, just tell me that?

23 A. Now, how they do this, how they sent their reports, now the 17th

24 TG towards their superior command, how they reported, I have no idea.

25 They can write whatever they want. I really have no idea, but what went

Page 17265

1 from the field was correct information. I was in Samac and I know that we

2 reported about what was going on and so on and so forth. And now what

3 kind of report was received ultimately is something I have no idea about.

4 Q. Tell me, from the 4th Detachment, who sent reports from the field

5 to the 17th Tactical Group? Who was in charge of that?

6 A. The commander, his deputy, the assistant commander, the duty

7 officer, et cetera.

8 Q. Would you look at the document that's in front of you, on page 1,

9 this is the command of the 17th Corps, the 18th of April. In paragraph 3,

10 the Prosecutor asked you the same thing, that between the 17th and 18th of

11 April, that the Serb units of the TO and the police were carrying out

12 actions against the paramilitaries in Samac. Is that correct? Is that

13 correct on the basis of what you know from the field?

14 A. Operations against?

15 Q. Paramilitary formations.

16 A. I don't know about that.

17 Q. Do you know that on the 18th of April, by 11.00, the

18 above-mentioned forces took Samac in its entirety? Are you aware of that?

19 A. This is possible.

20 Q. Underneath that there is a paragraph where it says that the

21 command of TG 17 was ordered to secure the success attained and not to

22 take any other offensive measures. That is in keeping with what you said,

23 that you were given this task not to do anything.

24 A. That's right.

25 Q. As far as the higher command is concerned, this operation was a

Page 17266

1 success, wasn't it?

2 A. I explained this. I don't know what higher levels wrote to their

3 own even higher levels. I have no idea.

4 Q. Could you please look at page 2? There is a conclusion, that is

5 item 8, and then another sentence, "The corps units responded to

6 paramilitary group's activities, operational group 1" -- we are not

7 interested in that -- "and engaged in routing the paramilitary groups in

8 Bosanski Samac and establishing the civilian authorities [Tactical Group

9 17]." Is that what actually happened in Samac?

10 A. I don't know about that.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic, when you are reading or explaining or

12 even asking the question, please do it slowly. Otherwise, the record

13 won't be correct.

14 MR. PANTELIC: I do apologise again, Your Honour.

15 Q. [Interpretation] So my question was that the 17th Tactical Group

16 was engaged in routing paramilitary formations in Bosanski Samac and

17 establishing the civilian authority. And your answer on page 23, line 2,

18 it says -- your answer was that you don't know anything about that.

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. PANTELIC: Could we have now Exhibit P24?

21 Q. [Interpretation] In this document, in this telegram, the command

22 of the 17th Corps again reports to the 2nd Military District on the 18th

23 of April, sometime at about 1740 hours -- in fact 1725 hours, and under

24 item 4, it says that "Serb forces of the Bosanski Samac TO together with

25 the MUP forces by 1100 hours they took control over the entire town." Is

Page 17267

1 this in accordance with your personal knowledge about what happened in

2 Samac?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Further on, below that, it says that "The tactical group commander

5 was ordered to secure the success that has been achieved and to abstain

6 from taking any special steps." Do you agree with that?

7 A. I don't know about that. I don't know what was ordered to the

8 commander of the T -- of TG 17, I don't know.

9 Q. Can you explain to the Trial Chamber how come you're saying now

10 that you agree with the statement that the forces of the Serb TO took part

11 in that, while throughout this time, both to the Prosecutor and to me,

12 you've been denying the existence of the Serb TO forces, although

13 Mr. Zaric says that -- said that in his interview? Now, what do you mean

14 when you said that you agreed that the Serb TO forces took part in this?

15 A. I'll repeat. The Serb TO forces in Samac, in the 4th Detachment,

16 did not exist. They did not exist. The 4th Detachment did not take part.

17 Q. Just a moment. I have to interrupt. You've been saying that TO

18 forces did not exist. We have been listening to you for two days and now

19 you agree with me that TO forces of Bosanski Samac, Serb TO forces and MUP

20 forces, by 1100 hours, they have taken over the entire town. You just

21 confirmed that two minutes ago. Again I'm asking you: What is the truth,

22 Mr. Savic?

23 A. My information is --

24 MR. LAZAREVIC: I believe that this question of Mr. Pantelic,

25 although I don't have a problem with it, it's a bit premature. First of

Page 17268

1 all we have to establish what is the understanding of this witness of the

2 term "Serbian TO" and then ask him this question, otherwise we really

3 don't know what we are talking about here.

4 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour --

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, perhaps the witness can explain.


7 Q. [Interpretation] Can you please explain, what are, for you,

8 Serbian forces? Serb forces?

9 A. Serb TO forces, according to what I know, they are members of a

10 unit that was established, I believe, in Batkusa and they were led by Mico

11 Ivanovic, also known as Mijak. And according to my assessment, I believe

12 that these are these force that had come together with these men, shall I

13 call them volunteers, MUP people, they came to Samac on that day. And so

14 they established what does it say here, and they have taken over the

15 entire town, that's what it says in this report. That's what I know.

16 Q. Specifically, is this your knowledge or is this your opinion? Is

17 this your assumption? Because precisely this is what you mentioned in

18 your answer.

19 A. A couple of days later --

20 Q. No, no. Just very briefly, is this your personal knowledge or is

21 this your assumption Mr. Savic?

22 A. My personal knowledge.

23 Q. Was the first detachment as part of the 17th Tactical Group?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Who was the commander of that detachment?

Page 17269

1 A. First of all, it was Mico Ivanovic, also known as Mijak, and after

2 that was Savo Bosic.

3 Q. And 1st Detachment was part of the 17th Tactical Group; is that

4 correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Prosecutor asked you on page 51 on Friday whether on 17th of April

7 there were forces came from Croatia across the bridge, Croatian forces,

8 and you answered that there were no such forces. Tell me, what did you do

9 on the 17th of April, around 3.00 in the morning, you personally?

10 A. I had just got up at that time.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: The witness has already explained that so many

12 times, Mr. Pantelic.

13 MR. PANTELIC: The point is, Your Honour, I finished with this

14 issue absolutely, the point is that --

15 Q. [Interpretation] I'll just ask you this question: If you were

16 sleeping at 3.00 in the morning, how come that you don't -- you know there

17 were no Croatian forces that were about to attack Samac, as it says in all

18 the telegrams of the 17th Tactical Group and the 17th corps and all the

19 other telegrams? If you were asleep, how do you know that there were no

20 Croatian forces about to attack? Can you explain this to the Trial

21 Chamber? Because the whole detachment was asleep. Can you explain how do

22 you know?

23 A. I've already explained that. I came to the command in about a

24 quarter of an hour.

25 Q. Just a moment. Before 3.00 a.m. while were you asleep, how do you

Page 17270

1 know, on the basis of what do you claim, that it was not possible that

2 there was an attack that was going to be launched across the bridge on the

3 Sava River from Croatia? Could you please explain.

4 A. Could you repeat the question.

5 Q. Mr. Savic, you're asleep, it's 3.00 a.m. 17th of April, 1992. I'm

6 asking you, while you were asleep, how do you know that Croatian forces

7 are not amassing on the other side, across the Sava River, and are about

8 to attack? Because -- that's what I'm asking you because it's all of

9 these telegrams of serious generals, that's what it says. So I'm asking

10 you: How do you know there were no Croatian forces that were about to

11 attack Samac?

12 A. We had an information about the movement of forces from the

13 Republic of Croatia, about their amassment, in a certain direction. We

14 had this information and we received some information from the tactical

15 group and also some intelligence from our local citizens. And as I said,

16 that the attack on the 17th was not an infantry attack from Croatia or any

17 other except the artillery shelling of the town of Samac, and that is what

18 happened.

19 Q. So you cannot state with certainty what happened before 3.00 a.m.

20 A. I have no idea. What I heard at the command -- that's what I

21 heard at the command.

22 Q. Of course, you were asleep, you couldn't have known. You were

23 asked by the Prosecutor on page 43, about the fact that the JNA was

24 practically inactive and that that's how it allowed a new regime to be

25 established based on discriminatory basis. Your answer was we knew about

Page 17271

1 that. Now what I'm asking you, the Serb municipality of Bosanski Samac

2 and Pelagicevo in establishing, according to your knowledge, according to

3 your information, your personal attitude, is this also a discriminatory --

4 ethnically-discriminatory establishment, institution?

5 A. In my opinion, it is.

6 Q. Were you a part of that Serb municipality and you are still today?

7 A. Yes, I am. That's where I am, yes.

8 Q. Is this a municipality a part of Republika Srpska?

9 A. It is.

10 Q. Why in your opinion the Serb municipality of Bosanski Samac and

11 Pelagicevo is that an ethnically-discriminatory establishment?

12 MR. RE: I object. Is my learned friend Mr. Pantelic referring

13 to -- I think the witness's answer was referring to April 1992. This

14 latest question appears to be directed to the situation today, which is

15 irrelevant for the purposes of cross-examination and the indictment.

16 MR. PANTELIC: No, no. My question was directed to the period

17 1992, the Serbian Municipality of Bosanski Samac and Pelagicevo, strictly

18 on that period.

19 Q. [Interpretation] I'm asking you a question. Large number of

20 delegates founded the Serb municipality. Why is it, in your opinion, that

21 it is a discriminatory institution?

22 A. Because many people of other ethnicities left Bosanski Samac, as

23 some people say they have been expelled, and you've mentioned another

24 term, isolated, detained, that's the reason why I think this.

25 Q. This institution, this municipality, did they do that or was it

Page 17272

1 some other factors?

2 A. I think a different organs of municipality, not the municipality

3 but organs of authority. First of all, I mean MUP or SUP, the police.

4 Q. Well, that is a matter for debate. Now, Mr. Savic, can you tell

5 me something else. Why did you deny throughout this time -- what was your

6 motive for denying all the fact from these tell grams of the 17th Tactical

7 Group and the higher commands?

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

9 MR. LAZAREVIC: Why have you denied? This kind of question, I

10 don't really think is appropriate. The witness is testifying here. He's

11 not denying or approving or doing whatever. He's giving his testimony.

12 MR. PANTELIC: Because, Your Honour, after this question, I would

13 like to put on the record that all the testimony of this witness should be

14 stricken because he's absolutely unreliable witness and that was the

15 position of the Defence, due to the fact and the answers and

16 contradictions that he made so --

17 Q. [Interpretation] Now, Mr. Savic, I'm asking you --

18 MR. RE: The Prosecution objects very strongly to this gratuitous

19 attack upon a witness who is giving evidence and is being asked to comment

20 upon other people's documents, that's as high as it can possibly get. The

21 witness can agree or disagree. I would ask Mr. Pantelic to withdraw his

22 last comment. It's unbecoming for counsel in these proceedings.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Actually, there is no basis for the comments of

24 Mr. Pantelic against this witness.

25 MR. PANTELIC: Of course, Your Honour, that would be a matter for

Page 17273

1 the final evaluation of the testimony of this witness during the procedure

2 of rendering of judgement. So my last question to this witness is --

3 Q. [Interpretation] Can you please tell me, Mr. Savic, why did you

4 lie to this Trial Chamber in relation to the fact that the elements of the

5 17th Tactical Group took part in the attack on Samac?

6 MR. LAZAREVIC: I object. I object to this question very

7 strongly. First of all, the way the question is posed, why did you lie,

8 suggests that the witness was actually lying. First of all, I don't

9 believe that this is what the witness was doing here, and --

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic, if a witness gives you an answer

11 which contradicts your instructions, it does not necessarily mean that the

12 witness is telling lies and that's not the proper way of putting it to the

13 witness. And you are finished, so please sit down.

14 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I finished. Thank you.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lazarevic? Or is it Mr. Pisarevic for

16 re-examination?

17 Re-examined by Mr. Pisarevic:

18 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

19 Q. Good morning, Mr. Savic.

20 A. Good morning.

21 Q. I'd like to ask the Trial Chamber to draw the attention of

22 Mr. Pantelic, Defence counsel of Mr. Blagoje Simic, about the way that he

23 is talking to the witnesses, especially we witnessed here Mr. Pantelic

24 asking questions in an unprofessional way, being very rude to the

25 witnesses of Mr. Simo Zaric, that is that the witnesses for the Defence of

Page 17274

1 Mr. Simo Zaric is bringing here to testify. This was seen a moment ago,

2 although a couple of times his attention was drawn to this. However, I am

3 grateful to the Trial Chamber for protecting the witnesses from such

4 attacks.

5 Mr. Savic, are you aware of the fact that at the assembly of the

6 Serb municipality of Samac and Pelagicevo in establishing, there was an --

7 even just one deputy of other ethnicity except for Serb ethnicity?

8 A. I don't think there was.

9 Q. Another question that I'm going to ask you: Are you aware of the

10 fact that for the Staff Commander of the TO of Bosanski Samac and

11 Pelagicevo under formation, Mico Ivanovic, also known as Mijak, was

12 appointed?

13 A. Yes, I am aware of that.

14 Q. Is this your personal knowledge?

15 A. Yes. Mico told me about this later. He told me this himself.

16 Q. When you were speaking about the existence of the HDZ units and

17 SDA units, armed units, you mentioned at one point that there were also

18 some units that were armed of the SDS, there were some armed men who were

19 members of the SDS. You started telling us something about some men and

20 you said you had some personal knowledge. Can you please just clarify

21 this very briefly.

22 A. Yes. When I started to talk about this, one of you interrupted

23 me, and what I know is that in the villages, there was a group of young

24 men who had undergone some training. And I know from my village, four or

25 five of them, they were members of the SDS party, and they were members of

Page 17275

1 the staff that we spoke about earlier, this unit that was led by Mico

2 Ivanovic.

3 Q. Can you tell us the names of these men that you know for sure were

4 members of this unit?

5 A. Yes, I know these young men because they were from my village.

6 There were a lot younger than I am. I know them all. Zeljko Djuric;

7 Petar Lukic; Cedo Lukic; Caslav, Ilic; Milos Savic, also known as Mrki,

8 he's a relative of mine. So there were four or five of them -- in fact

9 five, five that I know of.

10 Q. Thank you. That is just from your village?

11 A. That's just from my village.

12 Q. Do you have the information that there were young men from other

13 villages?

14 A. My information is that there were young men from every village,

15 depending on the number of inhabitants.

16 Q. Thank you very much. Here you were shown telegrams sent by

17 military units and as I have noticed, these were mostly telegrams of the

18 17th Corps of the JNA, and telegrams of the 2nd Military District that

19 were sent to the Main Staff. Did anyone show you here that some report

20 went from the 17th Tactical Group, addressed to the 17th Corps of the JNA?

21 A. Reports that I had a look at here, I will repeat, this is the

22 first time that I see them here, this is the first time I've heard of

23 them. In parts of these reports I only disagreed with some details,

24 because I did not have any influence as to how the command of the 17th

25 Tactical Group would write this report in what content and how it will go

Page 17276

1 to a higher command.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pisarevic, can you just identify which reports

3 you're dealing with here for the record to make sense. Is it the same

4 ones discussed, P19, P21, P23?

5 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well.

7 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] P19, P21, and P23.

8 Q. Two words are used here, telegrams and reports. What is this,

9 this that you have been shown, namely Exhibits P19, P21, and P23? Are

10 these telegrams or are these reports?

11 A. These are reports.

12 Q. As far as I could see, it seemed obvious that these reports were

13 written by some kind of duty officers, not by the unit commander?

14 A. Yes, I noticed that too.

15 Q. Could the witness please be shown these exhibits, P19 ter, P21 and

16 P23 ter?

17 MR. RE: This isn't an objection but there was also P24 in there

18 as well, there were actually four documents which Mr. Pantelic referred

19 to.


21 Q. [Interpretation] Please take a look at P19. What does it say

22 here? Who sent this, who wrote this telegram or this report the way

23 you've been putting it?

24 A. This is written by the commander of the 17th Corps, and it is

25 signed by the leader of the duty team, Colonel Pedisic.

Page 17277

1 Q. Who writes this telegram, this Mr. Pedisic or the commander of the

2 17th Corps?

3 A. This is compiled by the duty officer who signed it, but in the

4 upper left-hand corner, it says in whose name in which this is written but

5 it is signed by the signatory.

6 Q. So this is the commander of the 17th Corps that's sending this.

7 Now I'm asking you the following: What it says here in this text, is this

8 compiled by the gentleman who signed it and does he do it on his own

9 without any consultations, without any approval from his commander, and so

10 on and so forth?

11 A. Well, I'll tell you. I had no insight in how they worked, how

12 could I? But the person who signed the text compiled it. That's the way

13 it should have been, that is the person who was supposed to stand behind

14 this text, the gentleman who signed it.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: I think, Mr. Pisarevic, these are matters outside

16 the knowledge of this witness because he was not one of the persons

17 compiling these reports or telegrams, as you want to refer to them.

18 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 Q. Just tell me when was this telegram sent, at what time?

20 A. 1700 hours -- is it 1730? I can't read it very well. It's not

21 very legible.

22 Q. It was sent to the 2nd army district of the JNA as we've already

23 put it. Thank you. Could we just have a look at it now? Could we look

24 at document P23 ter now? Who is it addressed to, who was sending this,

25 and to whom?

Page 17278

1 A. Command of the 17th Corps is sending this to the command of the

2 2nd Military District, to the operations officer on duty.

3 Q. At what time?

4 A. If I can see this properly, 1945.

5 Q. Who signed this?

6 A. Am I supposed to answer this? I mean, I couldn't hear things very

7 well. So it is commander General Savo Jankovic, Major General Savo

8 Jankovic.

9 Q. So this is a report, isn't it? When it is signed by the commander

10 of the unit.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Could we agree that when telegrams are sent, they are signed by

13 duty officers, operations officers, in units? Is that correct?

14 A. If the commander is not there, then it is done by the duty

15 officer, but then if the commander is there, then he approves or he says

16 well, you sign it and send it on. That's the way it was where we were.

17 Q. Now, let's take a look at this third document, P23. I'm sorry,

18 P21, sorry. This is the commander of the 2nd Military District to the

19 general staff of the army of Yugoslavia?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Who signed this?

22 A. The senior commanding officer, the duty team, Colonel Nikola

23 Sego.

24 Q. Can we agree that the commander of the 2nd military district of

25 the Yugoslav People's Army was General Kukanjac?

Page 17279

1 A. Yes, I knew that.

2 Q. Can you just tell me at what time this report was sent.

3 A. 1545. It's not really legible. Maybe it's 1845, it's a poor

4 copy.

5 Q. On the 17th, right?

6 A. On the 17th of April.

7 Q. Did you notice that the report of the 2nd Military District was

8 sent before the 17th Corps sent the 2nd Military District its report on

9 how they viewed what happened on the 17th of April, 1992?

10 A. Possibly.

11 Q. Please take a look at it.

12 A. 17th Corps, 17, 26, 2nd District, 1545. I can't see the date

13 here. It seems to me that this report went first, I mean the one that we

14 just discussed -- I mean it can be seen according to the dates involved,

15 and then on the 18th, this report went from the command of the 17th Corps

16 so, yes.

17 Q. So reports did not go along the following lines that first they

18 had to come from the lowest ranking units and then to the higher ranking

19 units. It would happen that through other sources, they would obtain some

20 information and then send their reports. The only source was not the

21 report of the lower ranking units, the detachments, et cetera, in order to

22 have the higher ranking units compile their own reports, can we agree with

23 that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In response to attorney Pantelic's question, you said on page 71,

Page 17280

1 dated the 20th of March, he asked you about a RUP 2 or RUP 12, and you

2 said that you were not an expert for this kind of technical equipment and

3 signals equipment, but I am going to ask you the following -- I'm going to

4 ask you two things actually. One is the following: Through this

5 equipment that was in the command of the 4th Detachment, did you maintain

6 communication throughout, for about a month, and after what happened in

7 Bosanski Samac, I mean you were commander for a longer period of time. So

8 is it through this equipment that you communicated with the command of the

9 17th Tactical Group?

10 A. Yes. This particular piece of equipment. Now what its name is is

11 something I don't really know.

12 Q. When this reorganisation took place and when the Army of Republika

13 Srpska was established, for a while you were commander of the 5th

14 Battalion?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And your superior command was the 2nd Posavina Brigade, whose

17 command was in Pelagicevo. You as commander of the 5th battalion on the

18 basis of this very same radio equipment, did you maintain communications,

19 radio communications, with the command of the 2nd Posavina Brigade of the

20 Army of Republika Srpska whose command was in Pelagicevo?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you. Also, you were asked by Mr. Pantelic on pages 50

23 through 54, 55, of the transcript dated the 20th of March, you were asked

24 about reports being submitted to the brigade from the detachment. What

25 were the organs that were in charge of this and so on and so forth. Tell

Page 17281

1 me, do you know that in the brigade, at higher levels, this is done by the

2 security organ and the military police?

3 A. Yes, that's right. That was their part of the job.

4 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, I believe that the question of

5 Mr. Pisarevic was not properly translated. He was not referring to

6 reports here on page 37, line 14, he was talking about criminal charges.

7 So this makes sense probably --

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, perhaps the counsel can.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note that the word "report" was

10 used. Could it kindly be clarified.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pisarevic, please clarify your question.

12 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. You did understand that I asked you about criminal reports being

14 filed in the sense of criminal charges?

15 A. Yes, criminal charges.

16 Q. So can we agree, then, that the organs or rather the assistant

17 commander for morale for religious and legal affairs in the brigade was

18 not in charge of filing these criminal charges that he had a completely

19 different line of work?

20 A. That's right.

21 Q. Mr. Pantelic also asked you, on page 66, lines 4 through 7, of the

22 transcript of the 20th of March, who from the command ordered and whether

23 you ordered Dusanic, Djordje, nicknamed Dzaltara, on the night of the 17th

24 April, to switch off the telephones at the telephone exchange at the PTT

25 in Bosanski Samac, and your answer was that you did not do that. And then

Page 17282

1 you started saying something about something that you knew or rather that

2 you knew Mr. Dusanic. Do you know Mr. Dusanic?

3 A. Of course I do.

4 Q. Please continue. Please finish what you were trying to say about

5 Mr. Djordje Dusanic, nicknamed Dzaltara, that Mr. Pantelic asked you

6 about?

7 A. I wanted to say then that Djordje Dusanic [Realtime transcript

8 read in error "jury gentleman"], nicknamed Dzaltara, would not know how to

9 switch off his very own telephone at home let alone mess around with this

10 at home -- at the telephone exchange. I mean, he worked at the PTT but he

11 worked there as a watchman in the security there. So this man was not

12 capable of doing that and nobody from the 4th Detachment ever gave him any

13 orders of that kind.

14 MR. LAZAREVIC: Maybe, I don't know maybe this needs

15 clarification, on page 38, line 21, the "jury gentleman" nicknamed doesn't

16 make much sense the way it is recorded in the transcript.

17 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Can I put the question to you? I asked you about Mr. Djordje

19 Dusanic, nicknamed Dzaltara. Is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. He's not a member of any kind of jury?

22 A. What?

23 Q. What did he do?

24 A. He was some kind of a watchman, a guard, something like that.

25 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think it is time

Page 17283

1 for a break. Perhaps this would be a convenient moment.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, we will take our break and continue at 1100.

3 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

4 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pisarevic.

6 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Mr. Savic, on page 27 and 28 of the transcript, you were asked by

8 the Prosecutor about the patrols of the 4th Detachment, about the

9 strength, about the tasks. Now I'd like to ask you a few questions in

10 relation to the patrols. The 4th Detachment of the JNA, until when did it

11 have patrols in the town of Bosanski Samac?

12 A. Until the 17th of April.

13 Q. These patrols, did they only patrol at night?

14 A. Yes, mostly at night.

15 Q. Are you aware of the fact that as of the 17th of April, 1992,

16 there was a reconnaissance squad that was put in operation and what its

17 task was?

18 A. Yes. After the area of defence was taken over by the 4th

19 Detachment, this squad, according to the command -- the order of commander

20 Antic was put into operation and its task was to follow the movements of

21 the forces of the opponent, its amassment, and to report about that to the

22 command of the detachment.

23 Q. I have one other question to ask you in relation to this. On the

24 17th of April, 1992, did you know anything about the presence of armed

25 members of Muslims and its unit, and their unit, in the town of Samac

Page 17284

1 where they were, where they were located and so on? What do you know

2 about that?

3 A. In the command of the detachment, we were very worried about the

4 very poor recall of the people who were called to come and join the

5 detachment but during the day we received calls from citizens, from

6 inhabitants, that in the area of park, of the market, there were men,

7 armed men, who were in positions there as they knew each other, these were

8 SDA members, and according to some information, about 100 people were so

9 deployed or positioned in groups around the town.

10 Q. And the last question that I have for you today is the following:

11 In relation to the Prosecutor's question asked on pages 45 through to 48,

12 you explained that liberation, you were even shown a document, that is

13 information P127. You explained what the word "liberation" means in a

14 military sense. Can you tell us, do you know if the term "liberation" was

15 the word that was used generally in all the reports of the Republika

16 Srpska army, in all the official reports, and it was to be used widely in

17 all these reports?

18 A. Yes. I am aware of that. I know that. And any information, any

19 communication, information in the press, on TV, this is the term that

20 entered our language, "the liberation."

21 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Your Honour, I have no

22 further questions. Thank you.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much, Mr. Jovo Savic for giving

24 evidence to the Trial Chamber. We are now finished with your evidence.

25 You may leave the courtroom.

Page 17285

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 [The witness withdrew]

3 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, before the next witness is

4 brought in.


6 MR. DI FAZIO: Can I just provide you with the proper English

7 translation now of P168? Which at the moment is only an ID document

8 because of the lack of official translation. I gave you a draft

9 translation. The official translation is now available and so the

10 document can fully go into evidence. It's P168. I have sufficient copies

11 here. Thank you.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the number confirmed?

13 THE REGISTRAR: It will be treated as Exhibit P168 and P168 ter

14 for the B/C/S. Thank you.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pantelic?

16 MR. PANTELIC: Yes, Your Honour. On Friday, I informed the Trial

17 Chamber with regard to the status of the rest of the 92 bis statements

18 which should be translated. So this morning I've been informed from the

19 Registry that during the second break, they will be in position to tell me

20 with a higher certainty at what stage are these translations now, so

21 accordingly, I will immediately inform the Trial Chamber. I believe that

22 it could be solved today.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well then. Can we have the next witness?

24 [The witness entered court]

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Good morning. Please make the solemn declaration.

Page 17286

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning. I solemnly declare

2 that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Please sit down.

6 Yes, Mr. Lazarevic?

7 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Examined by Mr. Lazarevic:

9 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Gavric.

10 A. Good morning.

11 Q. Bearing in mind your condition, I'd like to ask you if you can

12 hear me well or you don't understand my question, could you please let me

13 know straight away so that we have no difficulties or unclear things in

14 relation to the transcript. Can you tell me if you can hear me well?

15 A. For the time being, I do.

16 Q. Thank you very much. So that we don't overlap we've already

17 spoken about this, when I finish my question, could you please wait a

18 couple of seconds before answering the question so that there is no

19 overlapping for the record? You will see before you the LiveNote and when

20 the little dot at the end stops, then you can answer.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. For the record, can you please give me your full name and last

23 name.

24 A. Dusan Gavric.

25 Q. Can you just wait for the question. Can you just go slowly before

Page 17287

1 you give the answer? Thank you.

2 Mr. Gavric, can you tell me when were you born?

3 A. In 1946, on the 13th of September.

4 Q. Can you tell me your place of birth.

5 A. The village of Donja Dubica, municipality of Odzak.

6 Q. Where are you living now?

7 A. I am now living in Samac.

8 Q. Can you tell me about your schooling, where and when you completed

9 your schools.

10 A. I completed higher school for the organisation of labour in the

11 city of Zagreb and that was in the academic year of 1971-72.

12 Q. Are you married?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you have children?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you now tell me, what is your occupation?

17 A. I'm an engineer of organisation of labour.

18 Q. Can you tell me what is your ethnicity.

19 A. I'm a Serb.

20 Q. Did you serve in the Yugoslav People's Army?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Where was that and when?

23 A. It was in Ribnica near Kocevje in Slovenia, Kocevje in Slovenia.

24 Q. During your service in the Yugoslav People's Army, did you obtain

25 any rank or any post?

Page 17288

1 A. No.

2 Q. Now I'd like to ask you a couple of questions in relation to your

3 political activity. Can you tell me if you were a member of the League of

4 Communists of Yugoslavia and if you were, when and until when?

5 A. Yes. I was a member of the League of Communists of Yugoslavia in

6 the period between 1968 to 1990.

7 Q. After 1990, were you a member of any other political party?

8 A. No.

9 Q. And now, you are not a member of any political party?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Sir, before the 19th of April, 1992, can you tell me where did you

12 live?

13 A. I lived in the town of Odzak, municipality of Odzak.

14 Q. Did you have a house in Odzak?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Were you employed in Odzak?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you tell me what work did you do in Odzak until the 19th of

19 April, 1992?

20 A. I was working in agricultural company Posavina in Odzak. I worked

21 in the following -- I was a manager of the work unit of mechanisation and

22 then for a while I was manager of a working unit, social standard, and

23 then until April, 1992, I worked as an internal controller.

24 Q. Sir, I'll ask you a small number of questions and I'd like us to

25 go through this as quickly as possible but I think it will be very useful

Page 17289

1 to hear from you some information considering that you have lived in Odzak

2 for a long time. In 1990, and that has been uncontested so far,

3 multi-party elections were held. Can you tell me, in the town of Odzak,

4 who won these elections in 1990?

5 A. In the town of Odzak?

6 Q. I'm sorry, I meant the municipality of Odzak.

7 A. The municipality of Odzak, it was the party of Croatian Democratic

8 Union that won with a large majority. After that came the Party of

9 Democratic Action, and then the Serbian democratic party. While the other

10 parties, like the SDP or the other parties, they had relatively small

11 number of votes.

12 Q. The HDZ, did it have more than a half of votes or did it have an

13 absolute majority in the municipality of Odzak?

14 A. Yes. It had absolute majority.

15 Q. Tell me, in the elections of 1990 and after the results you've

16 just referred to were achieved, who was appointed president of the

17 municipal assembly of Odzak?

18 A. The President of the municipal assembly of Odzak was Mr. Stjepan

19 Ivankovic, otherwise president of the HDZ.

20 Q. Who was appointed Chief of Police?

21 A. Mr. Stjepan Mikic was appointed Chief of Police. He was a member

22 of the main board or rather the municipal board of the HDZ and he was an

23 ethnic Croat.

24 Q. I'm interested in one more office, and that is the President of

25 the executive board of the municipal assembly of Odzak.

Page 17290

1 A. The President of the executive board of municipal assembly of

2 Odzak was also an ethnic Croat, Jakov Terzic, member of the main board of

3 the HDZ of the municipality of Odzak.

4 Q. On the basis of your answers, I believe that we can conclude that

5 all key positions in the municipality of Odzak were in the hands of ethnic

6 Croats, members of the HDZ. Is this the right thing to say?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. As for other national parties that you referred to, can you tell

9 us who was president of the SDA in Odzak?

10 A. It was Mr. Sead Delic.

11 Q. In the newly-established government, after the elections of 1990,

12 did this Mr. Sead Delic have a particular office?

13 A. Yes. He was one of the heads of secretariat, I don't know exactly

14 which one, within the municipal authorities.

15 Q. Tell me now, what about the Serbian democratic party? Who was its

16 president in the municipality of Odzak?

17 A. The President of the SDS of the municipality of Odzak was

18 Mr. Dragomir Tesanovic.

19 Q. After the elections of 1991, did he come to hold an office in the

20 newly-established government?

21 A. Yes. He was head of the land survey office.

22 Q. Thank you. In addition to that, but it doesn't really relate to

23 this particular subject, I want to put a few questions to you pertaining

24 to local communes in the territory of the municipality of Odzak and their

25 ethnic composition. Can you tell us about the territory of the

Page 17291

1 municipality of Odzak? How many local communes were predominantly

2 populated by Croats?

3 A. There were nine local communes.

4 Q. Let's just clarify this. What does this mean in practice? I mean

5 what is a local commune? Is that a village?

6 A. As a rule, these were settlements but not only. For example, the

7 town of Odzak consisted of three local communes, so it's not a rule

8 really.

9 Q. All right. Can you enumerate them for us? What were the local

10 communes in Odzak that were predominantly populated by Croats?

11 A. The part called Bijele Bare, 90 per cent of the population was

12 Croat.

13 Q. You said that there were nine of them. Give me the other ones.

14 A. Could you repeat that question?

15 Q. So, in which local communes was the predominant population Croat?

16 A. You mean individually speaking?

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. The village of Ada, the village of Novo Selo, the village of

19 Gornja Dubica, the village of Vojskova.

20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand this, the

21 last two. The interpreter did not understand.



24 Q. Just a moment, please. Very slowly, the last village that is in

25 the transcript was Gornja Dubica. So you said Ada, Novo Selo, Gornja

Page 17292

1 Dubica. Could you please proceed now?

2 A. Vojskova, Osicac, Donji Svilaj, Vrbovac, Potocani, and Crna Vas.

3 Q. Thank you. You mentioned the local commune of Trnjak Zorice.

4 What was the situation like there?

5 A. Excuse me, in addition to Trnjak Zorice, where there was a mixed

6 population, both Croats and Serbs, we had three other local communes where

7 there was a mixed population of Croats and Serbs. That was the village of

8 Gornji Svilaj, then the town of Odzak, and part of Donja Dubica, the

9 so-called Papucija [phoen] was within it. And in Donja Dubica,

10 practically in the centre of town - oh, it's not a town, it's a village -

11 there were at least some 20 houses belonging to ethnic Croats.

12 Q. Thank you very much. Just could you speak a little bit slower?

13 So we mentioned Croat local communes. We mentioned mixed local communes.

14 Tell me now, were there any local communes where the Serbs were the

15 majority population?

16 A. Yes. These are the following local communes: Joseva, Mirnica,

17 Novi Grad...

18 Q. Very well. If you cannot remember everything, it's not that much

19 of a problem. Let me just ask you one more thing. In the territory of

20 the municipality of Odzak, where did the Muslims live?

21 A. The Muslims only lived in the town of Odzak.

22 Q. Now I would briefly like to move on to the town of Odzak itself.

23 Tell me, to the best of your knowledge, as regards numbers, what was the

24 population pattern like in the town of Odzak itself? How many Serbs were

25 there? How many Croats? How many Muslims? To the best of your

Page 17293

1 knowledge.

2 A. As far as I know, the ethnic composition of the town of Odzak was

3 as follows: There were about 6 and a half thousand Muslims; there were

4 about 1500 Croats; Serbs accounted for about 560.

5 Q. Thank you. We can conclude on the basis of this that in the town

6 of Odzak, obviously, the major part of the population were Muslims?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you. I think that we have had a picture of the municipality

9 of Odzak painted for us, and now I would like to move on to a subject that

10 has to do with the municipality of Odzak.

11 Please, have you heard of the Croat Community of Bosanska

12 Posavina? If so, tell us who you've heard this from and what did you

13 actually hear? What is your information in this regard?

14 A. Yes. I have heard about this. Sometime in the month of December,

15 was it the 13th or 14th of December, I was with a Muslim friend.

16 Q. Can you give us the name of this friend of yours and what position

17 did he hold?

18 A. Yes. I was following the little dot. Yes. His name was Enver

19 Delic. He worked as an inspector in the crime investigation service of

20 the SUP in Odzak.

21 Q. Tell us, what is it that you heard sometime on the 13th or 14th of

22 December? I'm sorry, is this 1991? Are you referring to 1991?

23 A. Yes, yes.

24 Q. Tell us now, what is this that you heard in relation to the Croat

25 Community of Bosanska Posavina?

Page 17294

1 A. Enver was having coffee at my home and he told me that on the 12th

2 of December, 1991, in Odzak, a meeting was held of the representatives of

3 the HDZ party from the area of the municipality, or rather the

4 municipalities of Brcko; Orasje; Samac, Bosanski Samac; Gradacac; Modrica;

5 Tesanj; Teslic; Derventa; and Bosanski Brod. On that day, they proclaimed

6 the Croat Community of Bosanska Posavina.

7 Q. Thank you, sir. You can speak a bit faster. Please don't

8 misunderstand me, just a tiny little bit faster.

9 A. All right.

10 Q. What was your understanding of this? What was this actually?

11 What was this Croat Community of Bosanska Posavina? What was your own

12 conclusion in this regard?

13 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, this witness's conclusions

14 are irrelevant. I've got no objection to Mr. Lazarevic getting this

15 witness to tell you what he knows of this organisational body, but it

16 should be confined to that, what he knows about it, what his source of

17 information was, not his own conclusions. Because then you don't know on

18 what it's based.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic?

20 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, my question was mainly targeted to

21 the personal experience of the witness and the way he felt, being a Serb,

22 in Odzak, what -- how did he react and what was his reaction on this

23 information.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, that's irrelevant. He should just tell you

25 what's going on as far as this body is concerned.

Page 17295

1 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic can ask him what his -- what the

2 witness's reaction was when he was informed about what was going on.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: Very well, Your Honours.

4 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Mr. Gavric, you heard my question. How did you react to this news

6 that the Croatian Community of Bosnian Posavina was established? What was

7 your feeling?

8 A. My first conclusion was, and bearing in mind the activities so far

9 or until then in the municipality of Odzak, and considering that the

10 Croatian people in the municipality of Odzak is the majority population, I

11 saw that, I felt it, as an attempt to create a kind of Croatian territory

12 within Bosnia and Herzegovina, in the territories of the municipalities

13 that attended that meeting on the 12th of December in Odzak.

14 Q. Thank you very much. Following the establishment of the Croatian

15 Community of Bosnian Posavina, did something change in the localities

16 populated by Croats? Were there some changes in everyday life, in the

17 behaviour of people?

18 A. Yes, just very briefly, I have to stress that in the villages

19 populated by Croats, it was a daily occurrence that convoys of cars were

20 passing, or were driving with Croatian flags, that is with the Croatian

21 chequerboard, with loud music on the radio in the cars, and they -- there

22 were songs that could be heard, and these were songs of nationalistic

23 content, and these convoys of vehicles went also through Serb villages and

24 the town of Odzak.

25 Furthermore, in the Croatian villages, according to what I know,

Page 17296

1 particularly as of January 1992, practically on one house out of ten

2 houses, there was a flag with the Croatian chequerboard, there were large

3 posters and framed pictures of Franjo Tudjman, Ban Jelacic, Ante Pavlic

4 and others.

5 Q. Thank you very much. I think we have a pretty clear picture of

6 what the situation was like in the Croatian villages. But it seems that

7 in the transcript, it isn't completely clear. You said Ante Pavlic,

8 didn't you?

9 A. Yes, leader Ante Pavlic.

10 Q. Can you just tell us who was Ante Pavlic, just to give a clear

11 picture to the Trial Chamber. Can you tell us why was that important, the

12 pictures of Ante Pavlic?

13 A. Ante Pavlic was the leader of the Croatian Ustasha state. He was

14 a close collaborator of Adolph Hitler.

15 Q. I think that's enough. We don't want to go into details. Can you

16 tell us now, what happened to the Serb villages at that time in the

17 territory of Odzak?

18 A. Well, in the Serb villages, throughout the time, as I said in one

19 of my previous answers, after these daily convoys with the Croatian flag

20 and so on, there was a feeling of tangible tension.

21 Q. Can you tell me about the situation in the town of Odzak and then

22 we can go on to the other events that followed? What was it like in the

23 town of Odzak where you lived?

24 A. Well, the actual situation in the town of Odzak, what it appeared

25 to be like, was normal until January, let us say until January 1992, when

Page 17297

1 various incidents took place, caused or provoked by Croatian extremists,

2 and I can list them if necessary.

3 Q. Yes. Very, very briefly, if you can just list the incidents that

4 took place, that you personally know of, and things that you have seen for

5 yourself in Odzak sometime after January or starting from January 1992?

6 A. I personally know that on the 15th of January, on the tower of the

7 Catholic church in Odzak, a machine-gun was set up.

8 Q. Did you see this?

9 A. Yes, I did. I saw the barrel. A neighbour of mine, a Muslim,

10 told me because his house is right next to the Catholic church.

11 Q. Thank you. Were there any other things that happened in Odzak and

12 that could not be understood as a normal, peaceful living?

13 A. Yes. Sometime in end of January, perhaps beginning of February, I

14 don't remember exactly, in Odzak, in the hotel, there was a group of

15 specials from the republican MUP in Sarajevo, and they were guarding the

16 bridge on the Sava River in Bosanski Samac, and they -- their

17 accommodation was in the hotel in Odzak. Beginning of February, end of

18 January, they were attacked with hand grenades, with three hand grenades,

19 they were attacked by the Croatian extremists, and their base was in the

20 coffee bar opposite the hotel.

21 Q. Just a moment. So these were special units from Sarajevo MUP that

22 were guarding the bridge in Bosanski Samac?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And they slept in the hotel in Odzak?

25 A. Yes.

Page 17298

1 Q. Thank you very much. You can tell us if there is another incident

2 that you think is important, but also very briefly, please.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Madam Registrar, please send some information that

4 we are being disturbed by the banging.

5 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Mr. Gavric, you can answer. We hope that this noise will stop.

7 A. Just a moment. I'd like to ask the interpreter to repeat the

8 question. Slowly.

9 Q. Were there any other incidents, any events, that you think are

10 important, that you wish to mention that happened during that time in

11 Odzak?

12 A. As far as I know, I'm sorry -- also in February, a person of Serb

13 ethnicity, a Serb, was killed. He also worked in Odzak. He was involved

14 in karate. He was a very peaceful, quiet man. I don't recall his name

15 because he was not originally from Odzak but from outside.

16 Q. Can you tell us very briefly.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lazarevic, you're going into the details of what

18 was happening in Odzak, matters which do not help the defence of your

19 client at all.

20 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: When you look at your summaries for this witness,

22 all those are not included. He is supposed to be discussing the position

23 of Mr. Simo Zaric in Odzak from July until late August. Please stick to

24 your summaries and also stick to the matters which help the defence of

25 your client. I remember earlier on in the trial dealing with this. We

Page 17299

1 are not interested in what other people did. We are interested in what

2 the indictment says the accused did. So if your defending your client,

3 you stick to what will help the defence of your client.

4 MR. LAZAREVIC: Oh yes, Your Honour, I am fully aware of my

5 submission that was sent to the Trial Chamber, during proofing with this

6 witness. I made some proofing notes and I gave them to the Prosecution in

7 respect to some new information that I received from this witness during

8 proofing. I will --

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, even if you've given to the Prosecution, that

10 does not give you the right to deal with matters which don't affect the

11 defence of your client because this is a waste of time.

12 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, Your Honour. I understand your ruling. If I

13 could go just briefly to one more topic in respect to the Crisis Staff

14 established in Odzak and then I will move to the events on 17th of April,

15 if you allow me just one thing in respect to Odzak because it is related

16 to my case because allegedly there were some negotiations between Crisis

17 Staff of Odzak and Samac and other -- it is -- I believe that it is

18 related to the defence of my client.

19 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well.

20 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Sir, I think that we have discussed the subject of Odzak enough.

22 Can you just tell me if you know whether there was a Crisis Staff that was

23 established in Odzak, who established it? Do you know when that was and

24 who the -- its members were? If you can tell that to the Trial Chamber?

25 A. Yes. The Crisis Staff, yes, it was established, it could have

Page 17300

1 happened at the end of March, possibly beginning of April, 1992. I also

2 heard this information from Mr. Delic, whom I mentioned earlier. He told

3 me that the Crisis Staff was established, which has about 22 members, that

4 its members were party members of HDZ and SDA, without the participation

5 of SDS.

6 Q. Thank you very much. And your direct knowledge, your personal

7 direct knowledge, with regard to the existence of the Crisis Staff in

8 Odzak, can you tell us when that happened? When was it the first time

9 that you officially heard, you had the opportunity to hear, that there was

10 such a thing as a Crisis Staff in Odzak?

11 A. In terms of its information, announcement, the first time I heard

12 personally was on Saturday, 18th of April, through our local radio station

13 in Odzak, in -- sometime in the afternoon.

14 Q. Thank you very much. Can we just now clarify some things? Can

15 you tell us whether army appeared in Odzak? Have you seen any troops?

16 Who did they belong to? When was that?

17 A. This is how it was: On the 16th of April, I think it was a

18 Thursday, I personally saw people dressed in multi-coloured uniforms, in

19 front of a cafe in the hotel -- opposite the hotel, opposite the hotel.

20 That is at the entrance to the hotel. These people were in multi-coloured

21 uniforms. On the left sleeve they had insignia with the letters ZNG, that

22 means National Guard Corps from the Republic of Croatia, and on their

23 caps, on their -- on their caps, they had the badge of the chequerboard.

24 Q. So the very first time you saw them?

25 A. That was on the 16th of April.

Page 17301

1 Q. Tell me, on the 17th of April, you were in Odzak?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you notice something unusual on that 17th in relation to the

4 number of people who were in Odzak? Was something going on on this 17th?

5 A. Yes. This is what was going on: My house is practically right by

6 the road that leads from Odzak to Bosanski and Slavonski Brod. There was

7 a big convoy of cars there from the early morning hours, all day, in the

8 direction of Bosanski Brod or rather Slavonski Brod. Then at my next-door

9 neighbour's, who was a Muslim, I noticed quite a few civilians, women,

10 children and men, who were staying in the houses or in the yard.

11 Q. Where were these people coming from on the 17th? Where were they

12 coming from as they came to Odzak?

13 A. I did not understand the question or rather I did not hear it.

14 Q. Where did these people come from, to Odzak, on the 17th of April,

15 1992?

16 A. I asked my neighbours, Nihad Terzic is my next door neighbour, I

17 said to him, Nihad, where are these people from? And he said, "They are

18 all from Samac. They are leaving Samac."

19 Q. Thank you very much. I asked you about the Crisis Staff of Odzak,

20 and you said that it had 22 persons on it. Can you, to the best of your

21 recollection, list the names of some of the persons who were on the Crisis

22 Staff in Odzak?

23 A. Yes. According to what I heard from Enver Delic, I can say some

24 names now but not all of them because this was a long time ago. I know,

25 according to what Enver said, that Stjepan Ivankovic was a member, Stjepan

Page 17302

1 Ivankovic, Stjepan Mikic, Anto Savic, Sead Delic, and others. I don't

2 want to give the names of the wrong people now. I simply can't remember.

3 Q. All right. Tell me, on the 18th of April, in Odzak, what

4 happened?

5 A. On the 18th of April, I have to mention that I did not go to work

6 all of that week. For the most part I was in my home, in my yard, or in

7 my garden. In the afternoon, around 4.00 p.m., I noticed or rather I saw,

8 I didn't notice, I saw, my Muslim neighbours, especially women, who

9 started to clean the basement premises in the apartment building that is

10 right next to my house. Then they brought water, bedding, then around

11 5.00 p.m. a truck came and brought a lot of sand and empty jute sacks.

12 The men then started filling the sacks with sand and putting them on the

13 windows that provided daylight in the basement.

14 Q. Thank you very much. Let's not dwell on this subject for too

15 long. Tell us, was there some information on the 18th in relation to the

16 evacuation of citizens of the town of Odzak?

17 A. Yes. I found out from my Muslim neighbour who lived in that

18 building that there was an order, and that it was being repeated on the

19 local radio station in Odzak, and also that it was going through the

20 streets of Odzak by way of this messenger service.

21 Q. Just a minute, please. Did you hear this on the radio, you

22 personally?

23 A. I heard it in the evening, sometime around 8.30 p.m., that

24 evacuation is compulsory of women and children of all ethnic backgrounds

25 from the town of Odzak, to the Republic of Croatia, because during the

Page 17303

1 night between Saturday and Sunday, the bombing of the town of Odzak is

2 expected by aircraft of the Yugoslav People's Army.

3 Q. Can you pause at this point so that I could put a few questions to

4 you in this regard? So, the evacuation of women and children of all

5 ethnic backgrounds was ordered and they were supposed to be evacuated to

6 Croatia?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Tell me how was this supposed to be carried out? What were the

9 instructions that were given over the radio?

10 A. The evacuation -- I mean the evacuation was organised by the

11 Crisis Staff, by buses, the Centrotrans bus company from Odzak. Every

12 street got at least one bus respectively, with the name and surname of the

13 driver who would be driving that particular bus. The only thing was that

14 the buses were waiting in their garages and the sign was being awaited as

15 to when they should start carrying out their task, namely evacuating the

16 women and children from the town of Odzak.

17 Q. Thank you very much. I just have a few questions to put to you in

18 this regard. How did the population of Odzak react on the basis of what

19 you could see? These women and children, did they get ready? Did they

20 leave?

21 A. Let me say straight away, they did not leave. They were getting

22 ready, because they had bags that were probably full of their clothes or

23 food or whatever, I don't know, they were put out and specifically in my

24 street, they were there lined up by the fences, and that is where the bags

25 were when I heard the Crisis Staff -- I mean I don't know exactly. It was

Page 17304

1 at 8.30 p.m., but I don't know how long those bags stayed there in view of

2 what happened afterwards.

3 Q. Sir, at the time you lived with your wife, your mother, and your

4 child?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did they get ready to evacuate to Croatia?

7 A. I asked a neighbour, another Muslim, whether it had to be that

8 way, did Serbs, Croats, Muslims, women and children, have to go? And he

9 said that they had to. And then I said, and what if I don't let them?

10 And then he answered, "Do not play with your own life. You can all get in

11 deep trouble." So I had this brief meeting with my family members at

12 home, and then we decided that if they had to go, and if people in uniform

13 came, then they should go to Croatia and then if this did not have to be

14 so then they would remain in Odzak. I buried a briefcase with all sorts

15 of documents related to the house and then the diplomas and also my wife's

16 university diploma, well not really university a post-secondary school, I

17 buried all of this imperceptibly in the garden. And I said, If you return

18 and I'm not there, the briefcase with the documents is right over here.

19 Q. Thank you. Was Odzak bombed that night by the JNA, by the JNA air

20 force?

21 A. No.

22 Q. That day there was no evacuation of women and children to Croatia,

23 right?

24 A. No. Can I go on answering?

25 Q. Well, please do if you think --

Page 17305

1 A. Well, at 2100 hours, the siren, the air alert siren went off and

2 we all went to the basement of that apartment building, we stayed there

3 until 6.00 a.m. when the siren went off again meaning that the air alert

4 was over.

5 Q. Thank you very much. On the 19th of April, you left Odzak?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Is that right?

8 A. Yes, yes.

9 Q. Tell me, very briefly, your departure from Odzak, were there any

10 checkpoints? Were there military people there? Where did you go?

11 A. I was getting ready to leave Odzak even earlier. However, the

12 town of Odzak -- or rather leaving Odzaci [phoen] towards Modrica and

13 towards the hills, I mean that exit meant -- I mean from April, there were

14 checkpoints there, from the 5th of April. At the checkpoints, in addition

15 to civilians, there would be at least two persons in uniform, in the

16 uniforms of the reserve police force, and then there were also uniformed

17 persons, other uniformed persons, with insignia of the Patriotic League,

18 that is to say they were Muslims, and there were also persons in uniform

19 with ZNG insignia.

20 So it was not easy to leave Odzak. You could leave if you knew

21 someone but some individuals were sent back to Odzak, and since I became

22 aware of the fact that I could no longer stay on in Odzak, for the sake of

23 my own safety and that of my family, I decided on Sunday, the 19th of

24 April, that on that day, I would try to leave for the first time, and the

25 last time, the town of Odzak, that is. I said to my family, be ready.

Page 17306

1 Once I decided once I'm fed up, we go.

2 Q. Well, we don't really have to go into every little detail of every

3 individual hour what was going on. So you left Odzak but which way did

4 you go? Through which exit?

5 A. I left Odzak at 1330 hours, the family and I, in the car, if I

6 understood your question correctly.

7 Q. That's right. Now, where did you set out when you got out of

8 Odzak itself?

9 A. My plan was to go to Banja Luka, where my wife had relatives. At

10 the exit out of Odzak, at the checkpoint, there was no one there except

11 for two reserve policemen. However, in a place by the bridge on the river

12 of Jakesica or rather the brook of Jakesica, I saw at least 300 to 400

13 persons who were wearing uniforms. I have to mention another thing. Just

14 before Jakesica, I was taken over by a Mercedes, a passenger vehicle, and

15 it went towards the bridge. I mean that vehicle crossed the bridge, but

16 then when I came to these people who were at the bridge, they split up, in

17 the direction of Modrica. I passed by these soldiers and --

18 Q. Thank you very much. Tell us now, so you were heading to Banja

19 Luka, but you stopped on the way. Tell us where did you stop? How come

20 you stayed there and how long did you stay there?

21 A. When I passed the checkpoint or rather the entrance into the Serb

22 villages Vranjak I stopped at the village of Kozuhe to smoke a cigarette

23 and to come to, both my family and I, because we couldn't believe that we

24 had gotten out of Odzak. I turned on the radio, the car radio, this was

25 exactly at 2.00, 1400 hours, because I needed about half an hour for

Page 17307

1 that. The local radio, Radio Prnjavor, because I was going to Banja Luka

2 via Doboj, was informing passengers travellers, rather, that they should

3 not go towards Banja Luka at that moment because in the village of Lisnja,

4 that is behind Prnjavor towards Banja Luka, the Muslims had set up a road

5 block there.

6 Q. Thank you very much. Just a moment. The village where you

7 stopped, what's the name of that village?

8 A. Kozuhe near Doboj.

9 Q. In order to speed things up, I hope that my colleagues the

10 Prosecutors won't mind if I put a few leading questions to you. If I lead

11 you through this. You stayed in that village in the house of a man you

12 knew, and you did not even go to Banja Luka. Is that right?

13 A. That's right.

14 Q. Can you just tell me in terms of time, how long you stayed in that

15 village of Kozuhe?

16 A. I stayed in the village of Kozuhe -- I mean I'm sorry, I was in

17 the village of Kozuhe from the 17th of July -- no, the 19th of April, from

18 the 19th of April, 1992, until the 17th of July, 1992.

19 Q. Thank you very much. Just one question. During that time while

20 you were in Odzak until you left Odzak, can you tell me if you perhaps saw

21 any unit or members of JNA units in Odzak or in the villages around Odzak?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Before the war broke out in this area, that is before April, in

24 Odzak, there were no JNA units. Is that correct?

25 A. Yeah, yeah, that's right, there were no units.

Page 17308

1 Q. Thank you very much. Apart from yourself, who were with your

2 family in the village of Kozuhe, were there any other Serbs from Odzak who

3 had fled and were in that village or in other surrounding villages?

4 A. Yes. Apart from me, there were another five people who were in

5 the village of Koprivne, that's another village, then in the village of

6 Okucani and in the village of Vranjak.

7 Q. Thank you very much. Now, can you tell me what happened on the

8 17th of July, 1992, which made you leave the village of Kozuhe?

9 A. On the 16th, in the evening hours, we received certain

10 information, an information from some people who were in Odzak, reliable

11 information, that Odzak had been liberated by the Army of Republika

12 Srpska, and because the local telephone network worked and I had telephone

13 numbers, so we decided to hitch a lift, six of us, and either to get to

14 our house or to get to one of the flats.

15 Q. So you five or six refugees from Odzak set off. You decided to go

16 and look at -- to see your houses or your flats, since you heard that the

17 Serb army had come in to Odzak, can you tell us what happened once you

18 arrived in Odzak?

19 A. Well, we walked -- we went different ways, we took a -- hitched a

20 lift with a lorry. We got to a checkpoint, a military checkpoint, there

21 was a military police of the Army of Republika Srpska.

22 Q. Just a moment. You got to the military checkpoint where there was

23 the military police of the Army of Republika Srpska. Can you tell us, do

24 you know which unit this was, that was there in Odzak?

25 A. They had the insignia of the 1st Krajina Corps on their sleeve,

Page 17309

1 and I also heard.

2 Q. Thank you very much. So you arrived at the checkpoint. What

3 happened then?

4 A. So the military policemen asked for our IDs. We showed our ID

5 cards. They saw that they were citizens of Odzak and then we were told

6 that -- that that was in relation to the town of Odzak, that there was

7 military administration in the town of Odzak, that we cannot go around the

8 town without permits, and that we should go to the police station in Odzak

9 until the status is resolved. So basically he warned us. He said that we

10 should go to the SUP in Odzak, which is what we did.

11 Q. Thank you very much. The police station is located in the city --

12 in the town centre?

13 A. Yes, yes, and the municipality as well. Everything is in the

14 centre.

15 Q. Can you tell me, from the military checkpoint until you arrived at

16 the police station in the centre, what did you see? What was your first

17 impression when you returned to Odzak again?

18 A. Well, as far as my impression was, well, I was very happy but I

19 saw something unusual. It was a deserted town with a lot of troops.

20 Q. Did you see any civilians except for you five or six of you who

21 were there?

22 A. From the checkpoint until the SUP, we did not see a civilian.

23 Q. Can you tell me, you arrived at the SUP and what happened then?

24 A. In front of the SUP, there was a gentleman, Mr. Mirko Pavic, he

25 was in uniform of the civilian police and I knew him, I knew him

Page 17310

1 personally because he comes from Novi Grad and I know that before the war,

2 he worked in the police station in Samac. So we greeted each other, we

3 talked to each other, we chatted, asked each other questions and Mirko

4 asked me straight away, because there was one of our party who was from

5 the village of Gornji Svilaj.

6 So he said, Fellows, this is military administration here, we

7 don't have any permits, no permits to allow you movement. Also, there is

8 the -- there is curfew, that is in place, until 6.00 in the morning. So

9 the best thing would be if here at the police station, you stay until this

10 matter is resolved. But those of us who are from Odzak, we asked, Well,

11 can we at least take it into our own hands and go on our own

12 responsibility and go and see our houses? He said, Well, this wasn't

13 something to be recommended but we could go but we would have to be very

14 careful and that if a soldier stopped you, you would have to stop -- stop,

15 and you would have to put your arms in the air, and then you have to speak

16 to the soldier and say the reason why you're walking. And that's how it

17 happened.

18 I went to my house. I visited my house. My house had been broken

19 into. There was a window that had been broken, a window pane, there was

20 some plastic for -- that was put on the window. I looked at the balcony,

21 and there was a Serb woman that appeared and her husband, and another Serb

22 appeared. And I was surprised to see them.

23 Q. Just a moment, just a moment. So what you said is that in the

24 neighbouring building, three people arrived or appeared, there was a

25 woman, her husband, and another Serb?

Page 17311

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Were they civilians?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you see anyone else from among the civilians apart from these

5 three that you saw and that you mentioned in the town of Odzak?

6 A. No, not then, not later.

7 Q. Can you tell me, if these three people spoke to you, can you tell

8 us what they said to you and what was -- what had been happening in Odzak?

9 A. What was said was the following, that they had been unable to

10 leave, this married couple, they had a vehicle, a small Fiat vehicle, that

11 had broken down unfortunately and on Sunday on the 19th they were going to

12 leave but they couldn't so they stayed. And then this other man, he

13 stayed because he couldn't leave Odzak. That's at least what he told me.

14 They stayed in the apartment and this other Serb was with them, although

15 he had an apartment somewhere else, although he was by himself. Both

16 these two Serb men had been taken to either the police station or the

17 military command, they were detained, they were interrogated on a daily

18 basis, they were accused, at least that's what they told me, they were

19 accused by the military administration, by the civilian authorities, that

20 they were spies, and they were also beaten.

21 Q. Thank you very much.

22 MR. LAZAREVIC: It's time for our usual break at the moment.

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We will take our break at continue at 1250

24 hours.

25 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

Page 17312

1 --- On resuming at 12.51 p.m.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic?

3 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Gavric, now I'm not specifically interested

5 in the fate of these two Serbs who stayed in Odzak. What I'm more

6 interested in is how this occurred that they had stayed in Odzak after the

7 Serb army operation started. How did it happen that they stayed behind in

8 Odzak?

9 A. According to what they told me, the Serbian army when they came to

10 the place called Jakesnica, Jakes, what happens was that immediately after

11 that, it was 13-14th or 14-15, I'm not quite sure of the date, but from

12 Odzak, started the evacuation of civilian population, of Croats and

13 Muslims. They stayed behind in Odzak with the intention of waiting for

14 the Army of Republika Srpska, because the last people after civilians

15 are -- is the regular Croatian Army that left Odzak, there was a last

16 remaining group, the so-called Vatreni Konji, these were fire horses,

17 those were men in uniform that were checking who of the Muslim and

18 Croatian civilians had stayed behind in Odzak most probably. But when

19 they saw, when the so-called fire horses stayed behind, they hid in a

20 pantry which had no windows and they had blocked the door with a bar, with

21 a wooden bar, and they stayed in that pantry until the 16th. And on the

22 16th, they heard the door open and because the woman's bag had stayed on

23 the table. This person who had looked at the ID card that was in the

24 handbag said, Oh, this is a Serb apartment.

25 Q. Thank you, thank you very much. What I'm interested in is the

Page 17313

1 first part of your answer, which is that if I understood you correctly,

2 there was an organised evacuation of civilians and when this evacuation

3 was completed, it was then that the members of the Croatian Army, that is

4 of the HVO and the fire horses, again checked if all civilians had

5 evacuated?

6 A. Yes, that's what I've been told by these Serbs.

7 Q. And some Serbs, those three that you saw, they managed to stay in

8 Odzak by hiding. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you very much. So while you were there those first few days

11 in Odzak, did someone else appear from among the civilians, from any

12 different shelters or any other places?

13 A. Yes. By -- until the end of July, there were 13 families, 13

14 Milosevic families that had lived in Bijele Bare, it's a local commune

15 near Odzak, attached to Odzak.

16 Q. Thank you very much. Just one question, these 13 members of the

17 Milosevic family, what is their ethnicity? What are they?

18 A. Serbs.

19 Q. Did anyone else appear?

20 A. Yes. A family Ninic, husband and wife; then Jozo Gracarevic

21 [phone], Jozo Gracarevic, I am mentioning the name so that I can recall

22 that. Then there was Mile Rocelo [phoen] With his wife. Then there was a

23 man called Rade Dervic. There were a couple of families, if I have to

24 recall all of them now --

25 Q. Well, if you can just answer my next question, then we don't have

Page 17314

1 to go into details, so all of these civilians who appeared during those

2 first few days that left some shelters, what is their ethnicity, of all of

3 those civilians?

4 A. They are Serbs, both men and women.

5 Q. Did any Croats or Muslims appear?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Thank you very much. So you told me that you looked at your

8 house, that it had been broken into, robbed?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You then returned to the police station?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you tell me now, during those first few days, what did life in

13 Odzak look like? What did you do? What was happening?

14 A. On the very same day, a question was raised because there was the

15 commandment of the squad, who -- and there was a question raised as to

16 where we would sleep. And I don't know with whom Mirko spoke to do with

17 the organs of the military administration, whether we, six of us, would be

18 sleeping in a hotel, but we had to go in an organised way. We would have

19 to be there before 10.00, and then once we spent the night we would then

20 in groups organised would have to get to the SUP.

21 So on the 17th of July we slept there, and then on the 18th of

22 July throughout the day, we stayed in front of the SUP -- we came to the

23 SUP building in civilian clothes. On the 19th, Mirko Pavic waited for us,

24 met us, and said that he was given approval because there was -- civilian

25 police was lacking, we could be engaged as civilian police in the Odzak

Page 17315

1 police.

2 Q. Just a moment. So Mirko Pavic said that those six of you who had

3 come to Odzak, that you could become engaged in the police?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you receive a uniform?

6 A. He said there were no uniforms, go to the warehouse. If there

7 is - because it was summer, if there is a -- if you find a pair of

8 trousers or a jacket that fits you, just put them on. So basically we

9 found uniforms but they were not complete uniforms, for instance, there

10 would be a trousers belonging to a winter uniform, then there would be a

11 jacket belonging to a summer uniform, shoes --

12 Q. Can you tell me, were you issued weapons?

13 A. No.

14 Q. So how long did you stay there to work as a policeman in the

15 station in Odzak?

16 A. As far as I recall, I think to the maximum of eight days, and I

17 was there in that found -- uniform found in the warehouse. I worked at

18 the police department in Odzak.

19 Q. Very well. So during those eight days, what did you do as a

20 policeman in Odzak?

21 A. Nothing. Because the freedom of movement wasn't resolved, there

22 was military administration, as I've said, and the military administration

23 had not been resolved as to how civilians would move around the town.

24 There were no official documents, permits, and so on. So Mirko said,

25 People, we are not going to go anywhere until our status is resolved so

Page 17316

1 that we don't have some kind of accident, because there is no documents,

2 there is no papers, you don't have a paper -- any documents to say that

3 I'm a member of the police station, it's Mirko who had the list. So we

4 went in an organised fashion to the -- because there was no -- not enough

5 place for all of us to sleep in the police station, we would go to sleep

6 in the hotel. So our biggest worry, biggest concern was water supply,

7 because the water net or the supply network didn't work, and -- and as far

8 as some taps, there were not very many in town and we couldn't get to some

9 of them and there was a problem of the --

10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch the witness's

11 words?

12 A. -- Those few days we didn't receive from the army.

13 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Just a moment, the interpreters didn't manage to catch everything

15 so can you please continue your answer? You were talking about the taps.

16 You said that one tap worked and that the others were --

17 A. Those were in those streets, downtown, in Mahalas, as Muslims

18 said. There was one tap and there were a lot of people going for that one

19 tap, and then further problem was bread. Fortunately there was this woman

20 that I had mentioned, the one who had a husband, the one that I met in the

21 house. And I told Mirko, I'm going to go there and ask this woman to bake

22 some bread, and that's what happened. For two or three days this woman

23 would bake some bread, I would go and fetch the bread, and this is what we

24 would eat. We would eat that or chickens or whatever we would manage to

25 catch so that's -- that was our nourishment.

Page 17317

1 Q. Thank you very much. You said there was a problem with water

2 supply, that it was also difficult to come by food. Tell me, was there

3 any electricity?

4 A. No.

5 Q. What was it like generally speaking? Was there any destruction in

6 town as a consequence of the war?

7 A. No. There wasn't anything visible. I did not see anything major

8 at that point. Even then I couldn't see anything, let alone later when I

9 could walk around town normally.

10 Q. So the town was not destroyed?

11 A. No.

12 Q. But the services that were supposed to provide for normal living

13 in town, that is to say the power supply, the water works, et cetera, they

14 were not operating?

15 A. They could not operate, because how could this be done in Odzak?

16 Q. Thank you. So these first few days, you said that you were at the

17 police, that you didn't do anything?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Tell me, what happened then and how come you stopped being a

20 member of the police?

21 A. Well, I don't know exactly, between the 25th of July and the end

22 of July, in the afternoon hours, in the building of the former Territorial

23 Defence, it is right by the SUP building, I noticed a group of uniformed

24 men leaving the building, and among them I recognised Mr. Simo Zaric, then

25 the late Rajko Dervenic. He was wearing civilian clothing. Then I knew

Page 17318

1 Mr. Savo Popovic by sight and some other people.

2 Since this is about 20 metres away from us, we who came to Odzak,

3 we said hello to Simo, Savo, Rajko -- I mean we met Savo and said hello to

4 Simo and Rajko, and there were some other people there in civilian

5 clothes. Nothing was said to us, but then the next day, Mirko Pavic said

6 to me, Ah, yesterday the military administration established some kind of

7 a civilian military council whose president is Mr. Savo Popovic. It has

8 11 members, and I congratulate you because this military council appointed

9 you commissioner for the local commune of Odzak and please go to Mr. Savo

10 so that he will tell you what you're supposed to do.

11 Q. Thank you very much. Since we are on this very important subject

12 now, let us just put a few questions with regard to that. So you received

13 information that the military administration established a civilian

14 military council?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Yes. And you said that it had 11 members?

17 A. Yes, around 11 members.

18 Q. Now, for the Trial Chamber to get the complete picture, you were

19 not appointed member of the civilian military council?

20 A. No, no, no. The civilian military council appointed me

21 commissioner for the local commune of Odzak.

22 Q. Thank you very much. So you were appointed by the civilian

23 military council?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Very well. Let us just deal with this civilian military council

Page 17319

1 briefly. You said that it had 11 members, you mentioned some of them,

2 Savo Popovic, Simo Zaric, Rajko Dervenic. Can you tell us who the other

3 people there were, to the best of your recollection, who the other members

4 were?

5 A. I remember Mico Pavic, a Serb, a salesperson from Novi Grad.

6 Q. Just a moment --

7 A. Mico Pavic.

8 Q. Just a moment, please, let's clarify one thing because there is a

9 similar name and surname. Mico Pavic is not the Mirko Pavic who was in

10 the police, those are two different men?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 Q. Thank you very much. Could you please continue now.

13 A. Then there was Bogdan Dragojlovic. Then Jovanovic, Jovanovic from

14 Donja Dubica. I can't remember his first name. His sister's name is

15 Marica though. Then there was Luka Mlinarevic from the village of

16 Mirnica. Then there was Milenko Koic from the village of Joseva.

17 Q. Take it slowly, please, because we seem to be losing this. We

18 lose the names in the transcript, you see. And since this is very

19 important for us to have these names, tell me, after this gentleman from

20 Dubica, whose sister is Marica?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Tell us slowly what the names of the rest of them are.

23 A. Luka Mlinarevic, the village of Mirnica. Then Milenko Koic, the

24 village of Joseva. Bogdan Dragojlovic, did his name already, the village

25 of Novi Grad? I can't remember any more because the members changed

Page 17320

1 later.

2 Q. Thank you very much. This will be sufficient. So the military

3 council appointed you as commissioner of the local commune of Odzak? What

4 did that mean in territorial terms, the local commune of Odzak?

5 A. Well, in fact, it continued to live like the other local communes

6 in the territory of the municipality -- the former municipality of Odzak,

7 like Dubica and the other local communes. It did not have the status of a

8 municipality any more; it only had the status of a local commune under

9 military administration in which there was a civilian-military council.

10 Q. Thank you very much. Was anybody else appointed, any other

11 commissioners? Except for you.

12 A. Yes. Let me just mention this. In addition to myself, all the

13 other commissioners were appointed in villages where there was a Serb

14 population then. Novi Grad, Gornji Svilaj, Donja Dubica, Trnjak Zorice,

15 Joseva, Mirnica, that is when all these commissioners were appointed, on

16 that day. Not only I --

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio?

18 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm sorry I didn't want to interrupt the witness's

19 answer. It's just when he says that the commissioners were appointed in

20 villages where there was a Serb population then, it's just not absolutely

21 clear whether he was saying pre-April of 1992 or as things had developed

22 in the municipality following the conflict.

23 MR. LAZAREVIC: Well, to be honest, if my learned colleague

24 followed the testimony of this witness, these places that he mentioned

25 were pre-war populated by Serbs mainly, these are local communes that were

Page 17321

1 populated by Serb population before the war. So it makes sense but I will

2 clarify that.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: I had heard that and I think that's probably what

4 the witness was saying, but the way it was translated it wasn't absolutely

5 clear. That's the only matter that I raised.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, perhaps Mr. Lazarevic can clarify that.

7 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Just one thing, Mr. Gavric, a small clarification, these

9 commissioners who were appointed in the local communes as you said, these

10 local communes, are they the local communes where before the war there was

11 a majority Serb population in the territory of the municipality of Odzak?

12 A. Yes, yes, yes.

13 Q. Thank you very much. Except for local communes, were there some

14 other commissioners as well?

15 A. Yes. The executive organ of the military administration or rather

16 this civilian-military council appointed commissioners for all the

17 companies in the town of Odzak, and a commissioner for the farm in Novi

18 Grad. Also commissioners were appointed for education, then for the Red

19 Cross, a birth and death registry clerk was appointed. I already

20 mentioned the one for health. So that's it.

21 Q. Thank you. I believe you have explained the situation to us. So

22 in addition to the territories of local communes, commissioners were

23 appointed for certain segments of social life and also for the companies

24 that were in Odzak; is that correct, roughly?

25 A. Yes.

Page 17322

1 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, at this point I would like to tender

2 one document into evidence.


4 MR. LAZAREVIC: This document is already given a copy of the

5 document to the Prosecution on Friday, so they are aware of it. It's a

6 survey of the condition of business facilities in Odzak municipality dated

7 July 25th, 1992.

8 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Gavric, please take a look at this document

9 carefully. Please take a look at all the pages, and then I'm just going

10 to put a few questions in relation to this document.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you very much. Could you please put it next to you now on

13 that projector next to you so that our clients would know what this is

14 about.

15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note that they do not have this

16 document.


18 Q. Sir, could you please tell me, have you seen this document before?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Tell us when, under which circumstances, and how come?

21 A. I saw this document sometime -- I mean towards the end of July.

22 Q. I beg your pardon. Are we talking about 1992? That's what

23 matters really?

24 A. Ah, yes. This document was shown to me by the late Rajko

25 Dervenic. He showed it to me as a friend. He asked me about my opinion.

Page 17323

1 He said, I've been given this task by the military administration, or

2 rather that I and the members of the civilian-military council should make

3 a survey of the condition of the companies in Odzak. So I did this

4 together with them. I mean, since I did not tour the companies then, I

5 saw this, and I saw this rather, which I saw now with his signature,

6 that's the document signed by the late Rajko Dervenic. I don't know what

7 else to say. So I saw it, Rajko showed it to me, the lake Rajko

8 Dervenic. He compiled this with a group that consisted of the

9 civilian-military council because they obviously had duties according to

10 various areas.

11 Q. Thank you very much. The date --

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Just a matter of clarification, I'm not objecting,

13 if Your Honours please. The witness said that he was asked his opinion by

14 his friend, and who said that he had been given the -- this task by the

15 military administration to do a survey, and the witness said, so I did

16 this together with them. Is the witness saying that he conducted the

17 survey together with this civilian council? I think it's important for

18 you to know just precisely what the civilian council was doing and its

19 method and the way it operated, in the town.

20 The way the witness's answer comes out, it seems to imply that he

21 liaised with them or actually did things with them in carrying out the

22 survey as opposed to, for example, to simply reporting to them. It's

23 important for you to know what he was doing in -- I submit.

24 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, I will clarify this and I am grateful to my

25 colleague for this intervention because I really cannot follow the

Page 17324

1 transcript at the same time while examining the witness.

2 Q. [Interpretation] Tell us just one thing: Did you personally take

3 part in compiling this document in making this survey on the condition of

4 business facilities in Odzak?

5 A. Sir, could you put this question to me again? Because I heard

6 this interpreter through the headphones at the same time.

7 Q. I'll repeat it straight away. Did you personally take part in

8 assessing the situation in the business facilities and in compiling this

9 report?

10 A. No, no.

11 Q. So your knowledge regarding this document, apart from the fact

12 that you saw it, was what your friend Rajko Dervenic told you about, that

13 he had compiled this with some other people?

14 A. Yes. Perhaps I should mention that Rajko showed it to me. I mean

15 the document had already been finished and it was the finished document,

16 the typed out document, that he showed me. And he said, Well, look, this

17 is what the situation is in our economy in Odzak. That was all that had

18 to do with that.

19 Q. Thank you very much. Just one other detail in relation to this

20 document. So the document is dated the 25th of July, 1992, that means

21 that the situation of these companies in the territory of the Odzak

22 municipality had already been surveyed and recorded before this document

23 was compiled. Is that what you said?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you very much.

Page 17325

1 MR. LAZAREVIC: I move to admit it fully into evidence.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can we have the number?

3 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D49/4 and ter for the B/C/S.

4 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Mr. Gavric, let us come back now to you. You told us how you

6 found out you were appointed as commissioner for the local commune of

7 Odzak. Can you tell us what your tasks were, who assigned them to you,

8 and you as a commissioner for the local commune of Odzak, everything that

9 you were supposed to do?

10 A. I've already explained in my testimony how I found out that I was

11 appointed commissioner. I went to Savo Popovic's office, which was in the

12 TO staff, and he told me officially that I was appointed as commissioner

13 of the Odzak local commune by the military administration, that is by the

14 executive organ of the civilian organ of the military administration of

15 the military council, and that my priority task and that the other tasks

16 will be determined later, but the priority task was to carry out repairs

17 to the water supply network. That is that the well, the water supply

18 well, should be repaired, that is the generator should be repaired, that

19 is supplying it with electricity.

20 Furthermore, that the pumps that -- these are pumps of the

21 Hungarian type with certain balls, and that these pumps should be repaired

22 that were part of the network so that the town would have a water supply.

23 When he told me that this was priority task, because the town was full of

24 troops, he told me that once this is repaired, that I would have to make

25 sure that there is a bacteriological and chemical analysis of the water at

Page 17326

1 least twice a week. That was the very first task I was given by Mr. Savo

2 Popovic, so this is repairing and putting into function the water supply

3 network in Odzak.

4 Later on, I had some other tasks of course.

5 Q. We'll talk about this later. But before the war, you also worked

6 in a water supply company; is that correct?

7 A. Yes. I worked in the water supply company in Odzak.

8 Q. Can you tell me now, you became commissioner. You were given

9 tasks to repair the water supply, but of course you were not able to do

10 this by yourself. Were you given men, in which way, when?

11 A. Let me tell you straight away, when Savo told me about this

12 problem of the water supply and told me that this was a priority task, I

13 said, Savo, I have nobody to do this with. There is nobody who can do

14 this because you need an electrician, you need an expert, you need a

15 plumber who is an expert, and then you have to lower these pumps into the

16 well, so basically you have to start the generator and the pumps. You

17 have to make them work. And he told me, the workforce is not your

18 problem. The next day, tomorrow, you will get repairmen, workmen who are

19 qualified to repair the generator and the water supply network. That's

20 what I was told.

21 Q. Can you tell me, the next day, these people who were promised to

22 you, did they arrive?

23 A. Yes. Savo came to work early and he said, "Today you will get

24 four repairmen who will be working on repairing the water supply

25 network." And Mirko said, because the station had to be cleaned and some

Page 17327

1 other works -- work had to be done, "Can you see what you can do regarding

2 this?" So he said, immediately in the morning, I would get four

3 repairmen, four plumbers, to work on repairing the water supply network,

4 that is the generator and everything else.

5 Q. These four repairmen, did they arrive?

6 A. Yes. Four repairmen arrived in a lorry. Together with them came

7 the lorry driver, and another co-driver. I didn't know who he was. He

8 turned out this was Stojan Blagojevic, who was their security, and they

9 came together.

10 Q. So they came in a lorry from Samac, these repairmen that you asked

11 for, they came from Blagojevic and with another driver. Where did they

12 come to? Where did they drive to?

13 A. In front of the SUP building, where my office was, as well as the

14 office of -- of the military council.

15 Q. Can you tell me, did you know these people from before?

16 A. No, no, no.

17 Q. However, did you then meet them? Who were these people? What

18 were their names?

19 A. Well, let me tell you, I didn't meet them individually, but I knew

20 their last names. I mean, I knew their nicknames. I heard that these

21 were Muslims from Samac, repairmen, plumbers, who were supposed to stay in

22 Odzak and work on the water supply network.

23 Q. Can you tell us these nicknames?

24 A. There was a Franc. He's -- I know he is of Hungarian ethnicity.

25 That was his first name. Then there was a Muslim, Ziga, a short man.

Page 17328

1 That's what they called him, Ziga. Then there was a very large man with a

2 mustache, a blond. He was probably about 120 plus kilos. He was called

3 Dasa. And there were some others but I can't remember the nickname.

4 Q. Thank you very much. So this was this group that came to repair

5 the water supply network in Odzak. Did they work? Who was giving them

6 tasks? Who was telling them what assignments to carry out?

7 A. Well, I have to stress something. When I noticed that these were

8 Muslims from Samac, because I then talked to Mirko Pavic, because they

9 were supposed to walk around, move around, Odzak, is that they should

10 always be escorted by civilian policemen from Odzak and he should be with

11 them at all times and also escort them to lunch, wherever lunch would be.

12 So this is just to stress --

13 Q. Let's clarify something. You said that when you saw that these

14 were Muslims, and that Odzak was full of troops, what was the motive --

15 what was the motive to assign a policeman to this group while they were

16 working?

17 A. Well, that's for their own safety, because we couldn't issue any

18 kind of permit, any kind of freedom-of-movement permit, document, because

19 that had not come into force yet. Even I had not received a permit for

20 movement around the town of Odzak.

21 Q. Well, but can you tell me what's the reason?

22 A. Well, for their personal safety, just in case something happened,

23 to avoid a situation where a soldier would arrive and meet them and

24 mistreat them.

25 Q. Thank you very much. I think this is now clear. Can you just

Page 17329

1 tell me, in relation to what they would do on a certain day on the water

2 supply network, what were the specific tasks for that day, for the

3 following day, who was the one giving them assignments?

4 A. Well, once we agreed this, the four of them and myself

5 and the civilian military policeman, we then went to the water supply

6 network, and I told them, "You see, men, this is what has to be done."

7 And again, first they had a look at everything, and then they -- they

8 managed to get the generator to start operating. Once that was switched

9 on and that was functioning, then that's when they connected the pumps.

10 That was the part of their expert work. They first switched on one pump

11 and it was working, and then they switched off the other.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: We don't need these details.

13 MR. LAZAREVIC: No, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: What is of interest is that they worked, if so they

15 did, for how long, whether they were paid and -- the salient features

16 according to the case against the accused.

17 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, Your Honour. I'm really trying to stick to

18 the relevant facts.

19 Q. [Interpretation] So, sir, because you did not answer my question,

20 the question that I asked, can you please tell me who was giving them

21 assignments as to what to do?

22 A. In Odzak, working on the water supply, I did.

23 Q. Thank you very much. Can you tell me, first of all, how long did

24 they work for? Did they work every day? How long was their work

25 assignment in Odzak? How long did they stay in Odzak in order to work?

Page 17330

1 A. Well, their working day was from the time they arrived from Samac,

2 so sometimes they arrived at 9.00, sometimes they arrived at 8.30, their

3 working hours were until 4.00 in the afternoon.

4 Q. Thank you very much.

5 A. And then they would --

6 Q. Just a moment. Just a moment. I'll ask you short questions so

7 that we would get the answers that we need in these proceedings. Where

8 did these people eat?

9 A. When the organised meals started for all of us, including the

10 civilians from the military administration, we were given approval that

11 all of us could eat in the hotel. So we all ate in the hotel, even some

12 from the command staff, and then there were -- the troops had their own

13 kitchens. In the hotel, we ate, those of us who lived in Odzak and the

14 people who were on work obligation coming from Samac.

15 Q. Very well. Thank you. So you all ate together in the hotel?

16 A. Yes. Even we would get coffee and juice. So whatever I was

17 given, they were given.

18 Q. Just please can you follow my question so that we don't expand too

19 much? Was there any difference between what you were eating and what

20 these people who were brought from Samac were eating?

21 A. Absolutely nothing, absolutely no difference.

22 Q. You all ate the same food in the same place?

23 A. We all ate the same food in the same place. In fact, we even ate

24 at the same table. That was completely normal.

25 Q. Thank you very much. Do you have any information whether these

Page 17331

1 people who worked in Odzak, and I mean the people who came from Samac for

2 their work obligation, to Odzak, did they receive money in terms of

3 remuneration for their work they did in Odzak?

4 A. In Odzak, they did not, because nobody could pay them, but whether

5 they received any remuneration in Samac, I don't know anything about that.

6 Q. Thank you very much. Can you tell me now, how long did this

7 repair of the water network last in Odzak?

8 A. Well, the first task that was given, which was to start the water

9 supply, that lasted a couple of days, two to three days, until that

10 started operating. By then, work was continuous, that is the water supply

11 network had been damaged in the entire town, because of the tank movement

12 and the heavy vehicles, there were pipes that were broken.

13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Gavric. Can you just tell us how long did it take,

14 was it one month, two months, these people, how long were they there?

15 A. I think that lasted until mid-October, this group kept coming in

16 1992, until beginning of October, until the beginning of October 1992.

17 Q. Thank you very much. Now, one question in relation to the water

18 supply network and the work that was done. Did you on any occasion send

19 some of the -- these repairmen who were there to Novi Grad to a cattle

20 form to repair something that was broken?

21 A. Yes, I don't recall the date. I think it was in August. I'm not

22 sure, I can't remember. That was a long time ago. I received a message

23 by courier from the commissioner of the cattle farm in Odzak, Milosevic,

24 Mihajlo, that he immediately needed a plumber to carry out some repair,

25 because he was unable to give water to his cattle that was on the farm,

Page 17332

1 because there were hundreds and hundreds of cattle, it was a very large

2 farm, and because he knew that in Odzak I had these plumbers, he asked me

3 send one good plumber who knew his job.

4 So I called -- in fact I went to the water supply network, where

5 they were, and I asked, Who among you is the best plumber? Because I did

6 not know who was the best -- so this Dasa said I am, so he had more

7 experience, What do I have to do? So I said that he would have to go to

8 this cattle farm there was a problem and there repair would have to be

9 carried out because the cattle were unable to get the water.

10 Q. Just a moment. Can you tell us because there is no name in the

11 transcript, who was the person who said who was the best?

12 A. This Dasa, this large man with the mustache, I can't remember his

13 name, his nickname was Dasa, he said that he was the best.

14 Q. This was just for the purpose of the record. Please continue.

15 A. Well, he said but I have no tools, I need some tools. So that I

16 could carry out these repairs. So I said where are your tools? He said,

17 The tools were in Samac. So in agreement with Mirko Pavic, and together

18 with the policeman Jacimovic, this person took the car, put Dasa in the

19 car, they went to Samac, then to Novi Grad to carry out the repairs, and

20 when they repaired this thing, then Dasa was brought back to Odzak

21 together with Jacimovic who returned as well.

22 Q. Thank you very much. Tell us now, let's leave the water supply

23 system aside, what was the other work that you were in charge of as

24 commissioner for the local commune of Odzak? What did Savo Popovic tell

25 you? What else were you supposed to do?

Page 17333

1 A. As it is well known, there were commissioners in various

2 companies.

3 Q. Could you please speak slower.

4 A. As far as my line of work was concerned, the further tasks I got

5 were the following: To do a health screening of the population in Odzak,

6 because for the most part they were elderly people and women, because

7 people said that there were some health -- some people with health

8 problems there, heart patients, people with asthma, et cetera, so I

9 carried out this screening. And as I said, there were two heart patients,

10 there were two people with asthma and some other illnesses. We made this

11 list and then we went to the military doctor who worked at the hospital in

12 Odzak at the health centre there. He was very nice, and we agreed that we

13 would bring these people in individually.

14 Q. Mr. Gavric, please, let's not go into too much detail here. Can

15 you just enumerate these tasks that you were involved in as commissioner?

16 A. Well, I can. So it was health. Then also the pensions for

17 pensioners who were receiving pensions and before the war broke out. So I

18 took their last pension cheques, et cetera, and then I was in charge of

19 this procedure. I started sending these to where they were supposed to be

20 sent, and then these people actually started getting their pensions

21 again. Then I also worked on opening store for different goods, so that

22 this would start operating as soon as possible. Then also, I worked on

23 opening the green market, although there weren't all that many inhabitants

24 left but I had the green market cleaned up and also I organised a

25 lavatory.

Page 17334

1 Q. All right. What about the school year? Did you do anything in

2 terms of schooling?

3 A. The commissioner for education carried out preparations for

4 starting the schools again but there were very few children in Odzak, so

5 schools didn't really start working until 1993.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I'm not objecting to this

7 evidence at all, but it is necessary for you to know when these activities

8 were conducted by this witness. I think it's probably early on in the

9 piece after he returned to Odzak, but I know from notes provided to me by

10 Defence counsel that he remained in Odzak until 1995. And it's important

11 for to you know when these activities were being conducted for the return

12 to normalisation of civilian life. In particular if they were within the

13 indictment period but also if they were soon after his return to Odzak.

14 If all of this is occurring in 1995, it's of no use to us so we have to be

15 clear just a time period on this activity.

16 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Mr. Gavric, I assume that this will be our last question for

18 today. You have heard my colleague, the Prosecutor, what he is interested

19 in. So let us just place this within a time frame work. When did you do

20 all of these jobs, in which time period?

21 A. You mean all of it?

22 Q. I mean in terms of time.

23 A. Well, this is the way it was. When the military council appointed

24 me towards the end of July, at the commissioner in the -- I was

25 commissioner for the local commune of Odzak until the end of March, 1993.

Page 17335

1 Q. Thank you. I think that this has fully clarified the entire

2 situation for us.

3 MR. LAZAREVIC: Now it's 1345.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes we will rise and continue our proceedings.

5 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, just a second. During the break I was

6 advised by Ms. Registrar to address the Chamber. It's fairly briefly,

7 it's Exhibit P22. I noticed during the reviewing this exhibits that B/C/S

8 version has a small stamp with the time of -- and date of the sending of

9 this telegram, and in English version, we don't have that. So

10 Ms. Registrar was kind to give me this advice to address the Chamber and

11 maybe the interpreters in due course can clarify -- can rectify this

12 translation, just for the sake of the accuracy and list of exhibits.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Of the document.

14 MR. PANTELIC: Thank you.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: And you haven't got any information, Mr. Pantelic,

16 about your 92 bis --

17 MR. PANTELIC: Unfortunately not -- from the Registry they

18 informed me that maybe now we shall get something and I will inform

19 accordingly the Court officer with regard to these statements, yes.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: The Court will rise.

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

22 1.47 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

23 the 25th day of March, 2003, at 2.15 p.m.