Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 17336

1 Tuesday, 25 March 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.

6 JUDGE MUMBA: Good afternoon. Please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon. Case number IT-95-9-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Blagoje Simic, Miroslav Tadic and Simo Zaric.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We are continuing with the witness,

10 Mr. Lazarevic.


12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Examined by Mr. Lazarevic: [Continued]

15 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Gavric. Could you tell me if you can hear me

16 well today?

17 A. Yes, I can hear you well. Good afternoon.

18 Q. Thank you. Yesterday, when we broke off the examination, the very

19 last thing that we spoke about was until when you were carrying out your

20 tasks as a civilian commissioner of the military council in Odzak. You

21 said that this was from the moment in July when you were appointed as the

22 commissioner by the civilian-military council until March, 1993, do you

23 recall that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now let us go back to that time period and the time when you were

Page 17337

1 carrying out these tasks. Yesterday we spoke about the work in relation

2 to the supplying the town with water and people who came from Samac to

3 carry out these tasks. You also mentioned a number of other tasks that

4 you were in charge with. What I'm interested in now, these were tasks to

5 do with the cleaning of the town. Can you please tell me, how was this

6 done, the cleaning of the town, cleaning the facilities in the town? Who

7 was doing this and who was in charge of that?

8 A. Since the town -- no, in the town and in the companies, as I said

9 commissioners were appointed in the town and the companies were very dirty

10 and there was a lot of documentation that was in a mess, the

11 civilian-military council tasked me with tidying up all the facilities of

12 all the companies, if that is possible. Since there were no roofs that

13 were damaged, but what needed to be done was to put new panes of glass, to

14 pick up all the documents that were on the floor, to sort them out, put

15 them in a cupboard of sorts, I was also tasked with cleaning the main

16 street in Odzak. There was a lot of rubbish on the street. There were

17 bricks, there were papers, so many people had gone through; the troops,

18 the HVO units and of course, the evacuation by the Muslims and Croats, who

19 were fleeing because the Republika Srpska army was advancing. So the

20 cleaning

21 had to be done from the hotel until the SUP building through the main

22 street. And I said to the President that I did not have physical

23 possibility to do this job in the time allotted, because in Odzak, there

24 were no Serb civilians except a couple of us for the first three months.

25 And he said that we would be assigned with a workforce the following day,

Page 17338

1 that we would be given workforce from Samac. The following day, a lorry

2 from Samac came in front of the SUP building. A driver came and his

3 escort, and these four people working on the network water supply that I

4 spoke about of yesterday, they got off the lorry and also - it was a long

5 time ago I can't quite remember - but 15 to 20 women also got off the

6 lorry. In the meantime, Savo arrived and told me, "here, this is the group

7 for you, and you can assign them to carry out the work". He even

8 prioritised the tasks for me. He said first the medical centre and the

9 hospital had to be cleaned, that was the first thing, and then further on.

10 Q. Thank you. Thank you. I apologise but in order to streamline

11 your testimony in the direction of the facts that are interesting for the

12 Trial Chamber, and I presume also for the colleagues from the Prosecution

13 and the Defence, I will just ask you some subquestions in relation to what

14 you have just told us about. You told us that there was a group of women

15 there. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So these women who were carrying out the work of cleaning et

18 cetera, were they separate from the group carrying out the water network

19 supply repairs?

20 A. Yes. Absolutely. The group that was working on the water supply

21 network, they came with them. That's true. Every day. And returned to

22 Samac. But they were separate, completely. And they also had a policeman

23 who was escorting them while this other group, whether they worked as a

24 group or five of them or six of them, each group wherever they went, they

25 also had one civilian policeman who was providing security for their own

Page 17339

1 safety.

2 Q. Thank you very much. So the same question I asked you yesterday

3 in relation to the men who were there on the work obligation that you

4 spoke of yesterday, so these women who were cleaning the streets and

5 cleaning the premises in Odzak, were they also coming to the hotel to have

6 lunch with you, do you recall your testimony yesterday?

7 A. Yes. Absolutely. Everyone was under the work obligation, the

8 behaviour was the same, they would come, they would be assigned their

9 task, during the lunch which was from 1200 to 1300 hours, they would come

10 escorted by the civilian policeman, they would come to the hotel, they

11 would sit in the hotel, all together, we would lunch, perhaps we would

12 have a juice, coffee, that would be normal. We had no problems. There

13 were even joint tables.

14 Q. Thank you very much. In the course of the day, so you said they

15 returned together with the men who also worked on the water supply

16 network?

17 A. Not together. That would depend on where the men were. If they

18 were any repairs to be done in the town on the network, then they would be

19 working there, perhaps in the man holes on or the pipes. But that was

20 happening at the same time but not together, and this group of women, if

21 they were working on three different locations, they didn't -- they didn't

22 come together but they would come at the same time escorted by the

23 policeman.

24 Q. Perhaps, sir, my question wasn't clear enough. What I meant was

25 if they came together, I meant they came together in the morning, that was

Page 17340

1 what my question was in relation to, so in the morning they would come in

2 the lorry together?

3 A. Absolutely, yes.

4 Q. So where would the lorry bring them in the morning?

5 A. In front of the SUP building.

6 Q. Thank you very much. And these tasks for that day, where would

7 they be given them?

8 A. If the weather was good, that would happen in front of the

9 building of the TO staff where my office was, but if it was raining, then

10 we would go into the hallway, the corridor of the building, and I would

11 already have a plan of assignments, who would work on what and how many of

12 them. And then Mirko Pavic was their squad commander, would assign the

13 policeman, and sent them to do their work.

14 Q. Let us clarify one thing fully. Did you choose who would come and

15 do this work?

16 A. No, no. Let me tell you, this was not always the same group,

17 always the same people. Sometimes that would depend, like these four,

18 they came continuously and this other group of women came, they were not

19 the same persons always. It wasn't always the same people every single

20 day.

21 Q. Thank you very much. Now we spoke about the work obligation, and

22 I'd like to ask you some questions of you personally. Were you also under

23 the work obligation?

24 A. Yes. That is, with the civilian-military council, with the

25 military administration.

Page 17341

1 Q. So just one question that stems from your answer: Did you ever

2 get any official document, a certificate, that this was your official work

3 obligation?

4 A. Yes.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, the previous answer of the

6 witness is somewhat unclear in my submission. He was asked: "Were you

7 also under the work obligation," and he answered yes: "That is with the

8 civilian-military council, with the military administration." It's

9 not -- we've heard evidence of that very -- of that distinct organ, the

10 civilian-military administration. You should know in my submission,

11 whether or not this witness was working for them or whether it was his

12 assignment to simply work as one of the commissioners in turn for the

13 civilian-military administration and who gave him that particular work

14 assignment as well for that evidence to be -- to make any sense to you.

15 MR. LAZAREVIC: And that was precisely my next question because I

16 believe my colleague is looking a bit forward.

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So go ahead.

18 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Yes, sir. You answered that you were also under the work

20 obligation. Can you please tell me, since you also said --

21 A. Just a moment, just a moment. I didn't hear the beginning of your

22 question.

23 Q. Very well. I will repeat. You have now told us that you were

24 under the work obligation; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 17342

1 Q. Can you tell me who was the person assigning the work obligation?

2 A. The work obligation was determined by the military administration

3 and the civilian council in Odzak.

4 Q. But for you, for you specifically, you said that you were given an

5 official document, a certificate; is that correct, a decision?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can you tell me who issued that document?

8 A. I was given that by the president of the military council, that

9 was the title was the Ministry of Defence, Samac and it was signed by the

10 secretary of the ministry, Bozo Ninkovic and there was also the seal of

11 the ministry.

12 Q. Now, let us clarify this, the fact who gave you this into your

13 hands. But can you tell us what organ issued this decision, signed this

14 decision? If I understood you correctly, this decision on sending to the

15 work obligation as the commissioner, you were given that by the Ministry

16 of Defence department of -- in Samac, and can you tell me about the seal

17 and the signature again?

18 A. The seal was Ministry of Defence, Bosanski Samac, I can't remember

19 what else. There was Republika Srpska et cetera. In any case, there was

20 the seal of the ministry, Bosanski Samac, and it was signed by Bozo

21 Ninkovic, and whatever, the minister or the deputy, that was the person

22 that signed that.

23 Q. Thank you. Perhaps you know, do you have any information in

24 relation to this, whether the other people, either commissioners or

25 members of that civilian-military council also received such decisions,

Page 17343

1 what you directly know?

2 A. I know that all commissioners received decisions in the Odzak

3 area, from the local commune. They all received decisions just like I

4 did, from -- issued by the very same organ.

5 Q. Do you know perhaps whether the workmen in the work obligation

6 that were coming to Odzak to work on those jobs that you described, did

7 they also have a decision on the work obligation?

8 A. To be honest, I didn't ask them, but as we were chatting to each

9 other informally when we were not working, we were talking normally, there

10 was -- there were no restrictions, I mentioned a large person called Dasa.

11 He said he had the decision on the work obligation but I didn't ask him

12 what this decision was about. He just told me he had this decision about

13 the work obligation. I don't know whether this related to Odzak. I don't

14 have an absolutely certain information in relation to this.

15 Q. Thank you very much. I was just interested in the facts. And the

16 information that you have about that.

17 While you were in Odzak, sir, and you were a commissioner, did you

18 notice that either from the houses or from the companies, items were taken

19 out, loaded on to lorries or trailers? If you have, can you tell us what

20 you saw and what you know about that?

21 A. Yes. I saw on several occasions that items were loaded on all

22 kinds of vehicles, lorries, horse-drawn cart, trailers, but I did not

23 react to that. I wasn't checking that. That was not my responsibility.

24 But I did see that but I don't know whether these persons had been given

25 permission to do that or authority to give that.

Page 17344

1 Q. That's precisely my next question. Sir, if anybody wanted to take

2 out of Odzak any item at all, could you tell me what was the procedure?

3 You told us that there were checkpoints, you told us that there was the

4 military administration. Can you tell us if a person wanted to take

5 something out of Odzak, who did this person address? What was the

6 procedure in place?

7 A. The procedure was the following: The person interested in taking

8 certain things out of Odzak had to fill in a form and a written request to

9 the president of the civilian-military council, together with the listed

10 items, or what this person needed to leave Odzak. This written

11 request -- and of course this would have to be signed. Now, this written

12 request would then have to be filed with the President of the military

13 council, the president, as far as I know the rules, I wasn't present when

14 this was happening, but the president would look into this request and

15 these requests were either approved or not approved. If such a request

16 was approved, then there were separate forms that would be copied, I think

17 it would say "approval" or "permit" and then that permit would have the

18 name of the person, the items that would be taken out of Odzak by this

19 person, which items, the quantity thereof, and such a certificate would be

20 signed or a permit would be signed by the president of the

21 civilian-military council, would then seal it with a stamp, with a seal,

22 with four Ss on which it said municipality of Samac, then that

23 certificate, this official document, because the military administration

24 was further away from our premises, somebody would take that to the

25 military administration and then this person in the military

Page 17345

1 administration also had to sign some -- this -- there and a person.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, the official person?

3 A. In the military administration would have to sign that and seal it

4 by the seal of the military administration. There would be several

5 copies, there would be one in the archive of the military administration,

6 one would be would be in the civilian-military council. One, he had to

7 give at the departure checkpoint from Odzak, wherever he was leaving.


9 Q. Excuse me, sir, could you just please slow down? Because we can't

10 follow you enough.

11 A. Very well.

12 Q. So the last thing you said is that the person was supposed to

13 leave this at the exit checkpoint so to speak from Odzak, wherever the

14 person was going?

15 A. Anyone leaving Odzak, yes.

16 Q. So when leaving Odzak, you come across a checkpoint, a person

17 arrives with goods and items which the person wants to take out of Odzak

18 and shows the certificate. Is that how it was?

19 A. Yes. A copy of the certificate was to be left with the shift

20 leader at the checkpoint. It was only then that the person would be

21 allowed past the checkpoint with the items.

22 Q. What about if a person was not in possession of a certificate from

23 the military administration, stamped by Odzak's military administration,

24 could the person in that case have gone through the checkpoint just the

25 same?

Page 17346

1 A. No. That person would have had to take another route, an

2 unofficial route and possibly risk their lives on the way out.

3 Q. Thank you very much. Speaking of which, if I can just ask you to

4 explain something to me briefly, the freedom of movement in the municipal

5 territory, I'm talking about Odzak municipality. It is agreed that the

6 whole territory was under the command of the 1st Krajina Corps but were

7 there any minor, smaller units that were deployed in the area, and was it

8 possible to go and how from the zone of responsibility, the area of

9 responsibility of one unit into the area of responsibility of another

10 different unit within the Odzak municipal territory?

11 A. The Odzak municipality under military administration was divided

12 into four areas of responsibility. Odzak was one area of

13 responsibilities.

14 Q. Please just slow down.

15 A. Very well. The town of Odzak itself, together with the village of

16 Ada, was one area of responsibility. There was a special military command

17 so to speak. Then the villages of Novo Selo, Gornja Dubica, as far as

18 Prud and Donja Dubica. Zorici. As far as I know I was moving about those

19 parts with permits. That was another area. And then there was the zone

20 Gornja Mahala, Novi Grad, excuse me, I'm not looking at this, I keep

21 forgetting. So that -- there was an area towards Gornji Svilaj and then

22 the same towards Potocani because there was a different area, a separate

23 area, Gnionica and Josava and I was in possession of a permit, I obtained

24 it in Odzak. I had family in Trnjak and in Dubica and in Novi Grad so I

25 would go there. Especially if I was going to stay for a while. The

Page 17347

1 checkpoint that is at the command of the village of that area, I had to

2 visit it and an authorised official would have to issue me with a permit

3 to move about in in that area of responsibilities. When I went after my

4 private business, I would go back to Odzak and I would have to return the

5 permit, and I came back with another permit which I had, which was valid

6 for the town of Odzak. It was like that for me and for all the other

7 citizens and civilians who lived in the territory of Odzak municipality.

8 Q. Therefore, in each of the areas of responsibility of these smaller

9 units, you needed to have a special permit issued; is that correct?

10 A. Yes because there were combat operations going on there, so that's

11 why the army was there.

12 Q. Sir, we spoke about the military administration in Odzak. Can you

13 please tell me to the best of your knowledge who introduced the military

14 administration to Odzak?

15 A. According to my information, which we obtained from Mirko Pavic

16 specifically and the group I found in Odzak, the military administration

17 had been introduced by the 1st Krajina Corps whose commander was

18 Mr. General Momir Talic.

19 Q. Did you know at that time who was at the head of the military

20 administration?

21 A. I forgot the last name but I know that he was Colonel Gojko and as

22 far as I understood, he was the assistant of the commander of the 1st

23 Krajina Corps for civilian affairs.

24 Q. Perhaps Vujanic was the last man of that person, the colonel?

25 A. Yes, that's correct.

Page 17348

1 MR. LAZAREVIC: I believe that we need to correct something in the

2 transcript here on page 12, line 23, perhaps. I said Vujanic.

3 V-U-J-A-N-I-C.

4 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, the name.


6 Q. Vujanic, right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you very much. To the best of your recollection, how long

9 was the military administration in Odzak in place?

10 A. The military administration in Odzak was there until the

11 municipality of Odzak was established in 1994, towards the end of March.

12 Q. Thank you very much. Now I would like you to tell me the

13 following, please. If you can explain, the structure of government in

14 Odzak, what was the highest organ of authority in Odzak? Who was below

15 that? So what was the structure under the military administration in

16 terms of the government bodies in Odzak? How was it organised?

17 A. Well, first of all, the military council, as the chief body, and

18 the military administration, I mean, as the main. Then the

19 civilian-military council and we as commissioners.

20 Q. You kept correcting yourself so the transcript is a bit confusing.

21 Who is at the top?

22 A. The military administration.

23 MR. LAZAREVIC: Can I ask the witness maybe to just draw a sketch

24 of the hierarchy in Odzak.


Page 17349

1 MR. LAZAREVIC: Maybe this will be helpful. With the assistance

2 of the usher I could give him a blank piece of paper.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll start.


5 Q. [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I understand what you've

6 written but for the transcript we need to clarify this. The upper most

7 box contains the words... ?

8 A. Military administration.

9 Q. Below that, the second box?

10 A. Civilian-military council.

11 Q. Can you tell me about the third box?

12 A. The commissioner for the local commune of Odzak.

13 Q. Thank you very much.

14 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Previous translation continues] ... As an ID

15 document and as soon as we get the translation of this document, we will

16 ask for full admittance.


18 THE REGISTRAR: This document will be treated as D50/ter for the

19 B/C/S. Thank you. D50/4 ter ID. Thank you.

20 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation].

21 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Gavric. Tell me, please, you personally,

22 did you have certain experiences in Odzak in relation to your personal

23 property, to your house, during your stay in Odzak as commissioner?

24 A. Unfortunately, yes.

25 Q. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber about your experience?

Page 17350

1 A. On the 17th of July, when I came to Odzak, as I've already said,

2 on that day, I came to my own house, I put a lock on it and I closed the

3 windows. When the civilian-military council had been set up and I had

4 received permission to move about finally, I would visit my house

5 practically on a daily basis, three or four times. It's near the hotel

6 and the theatre. It's in the centre of the town. It was down at the end

7 of a blind alley. And without going into too many details, in that period

8 of 1992, until the month of November, my house was broken into nine times,

9 although the first time, after I visited, after I had obtained my

10 permission to move about, I put a sign on the door saying, "this is a Serb

11 house, Dusan Gavric, commissioner for the local community of Odzak, please

12 do not touch". However, it was touched, and I got really angry when I saw

13 that. I took two Kasikara hand grenades and there were two doors into the

14 house.

15 Q. Well, perhaps this is a bit more detail than we required but your

16 personal house, it had a sign saying, "Dusan Gavric's house,

17 commissioner". It was broken into eight times throughout the period?

18 A. Nine, nine times, altogether nine times.

19 Q. What did they take from the house, tell us, please?

20 A. Well, I must say that there is a staircase leading up to the first

21 floor, and they could -- they couldn't take anything down the stairs

22 because the staircase is very narrow. They had to use the balcony and a

23 wooden ladder to transport the items downstairs but they took everything

24 they could, the TV set, cutlery, dishes, suits, clothes, even books, my

25 kids' PC, the -- my wife's sewing machine. Whoever came took something

Page 17351

1 away. No one went there without taking something.

2 Q. Thank you very much. Sir, the following thing I'd like to ask you

3 is something in connection with the position, location, of certain

4 buildings that you referred to during your testimony. You talked about

5 the police station. You also talked about the Odzak TO building. Are

6 these two buildings close?

7 A. Yes, they're adjacent, on the same line, there is perhaps four or

8 five metres between them.

9 Q. Thank you very much. In relation to those two buildings, how far

10 is the hotel in Odzak?

11 A. The hotel is at the end of the main street, the distance is

12 perhaps between 400 and 500 metres.

13 Q. Thank you very much. You told us that you slept at the hotel for

14 a while?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What I want to know about now is Mr. Simo Zaric's stay at the

17 hotel, his sojourn at the hotel. The first question, did he sleep at the

18 hotel in Odzak?

19 A. As far as I remember, yes, but not very often really, because

20 Mr. Zaric had a vehicle and a driver at his disposal who would then drive

21 him back to Samac.

22 Q. Can you please tell us the name of Mr. Zaric's driver?

23 A. Tutnjevic, Toso. I think his first name is Toso or rather they

24 called him Toso, I don't think that's his first name. I can't think of

25 the name right now. Tutnjevic, and his nickname is Toso.

Page 17352

1 Q. Thank you very much. Do you know, perhaps, if Mr. Zaric had any

2 office that he used at the hotel for work?

3 A. Yes. At the hotel, the section of the hotel where the reception

4 is, there was an office of officials who used to work at the hotel there,

5 at reception, that's where the office was.

6 Q. To the best of your knowledge, in your personal experience, what

7 did Simo Zaric do in Odzak?

8 A. Like I said at the beginning, he was a member of the

9 civilian-military council. However, after between ten and 15 days, that's

10 when he -- he was assigned the office, after about 15 days. We met and he

11 asked me the following: He said that he was doing some work in relation

12 to military security, military security. He said he had an office at the

13 hotel, that he was working in cooperation with the military

14 administration, and that he had several tasks that he had to carry out in

15 cooperation with me. Should I continue?

16 Q. Yes, please do.

17 A. He then asked me the following, that I should leave a list of all

18 Serbian civilians who during the HVO were in Odzak and who were then found

19 in Odzak. Then, that those of us from the civilian structures living in

20 Odzak, that I should ask both the citizens who were there in Odzak, not

21 very many, but to ask them to find any document, any piece of paper that

22 could be found whether in around the houses or premises of the

23 municipality or in the offices of the parties, both the SDA and the HDZ,

24 and that all these documents, papers, should be handed to him, and the

25 third thing he told me, he didn't go into any details but he said that he

Page 17353

1 should go to Novi Grad, that he had to carry out some interviews with

2 civilians who had come from detention, who had just been released, and

3 that's what I know about Simo Zaric's activities in Odzak. I have to

4 stress that all the commissioners, as far as I know, they found certain

5 pieces of paper to do with the HVO authority that were left in a hurry and

6 they were handed over and I don't know what Simo Zaric then did with those

7 documents. I know that he cooperated with the security officer from the

8 military administration.

9 Q. Did Simo Zaric have anything to do with the activity of the people

10 from Samac who were brought from Samac under the work obligation?

11 A. Not in Odzak.

12 Q. Thank you very much. Just a couple more things?

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lazarevic, before you leave that section I'm

14 interested in the time period when Mr. Simo Zaric collected these papers

15 which people picked up from the houses or the offices. What was the time

16 period, at least the month.

17 MR. LAZAREVIC: Thank you, Your Honour, actually you reminded me

18 of the question that I didn't pose.

19 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Gavric, can you tell me, how long did

20 Mr. Simo Zaric stay in Odzak?

21 A. I can't recall the exact date but I think it wasn't more than a

22 month altogether, about 30 days.

23 Q. Can you tell me if we can specify this a little, in 1992, when

24 would that be, until what month?

25 A. Probably until the end of August.

Page 17354

1 Q. Thank you very much. Did -- was Mr. Zaric in Odzak after that?

2 A. I never saw him again until 1996 when I moved to Samac.

3 Q. Thank you very much. Do you know Jelena Zaric?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber if they are related -- if she is

6 related to Simo Zaric?

7 A. Yes, she is his younger sister.

8 Q. Was she in Odzak and if so, what did she do there?

9 A. Yes. She was in Odzak. After the military council was

10 established, she was working as a -- working in administration, working as

11 a typist, the military council, I'm not quite sure how long, could be four

12 or five months and then later on she worked at the Red Cross in Odzak.

13 And she worked in the humanitarian aid and all the other tasks that were

14 carried out by the Red Cross.

15 Q. Can you tell me, before the war, did she live in Odzak?

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 Q. Mr. Gavric, can you tell us, until what time did you stay in

18 Odzak?

19 A. I stayed in Odzak until the end of December, 1995, when, after the

20 Dayton agreement was signed, when Odzak was made part of the Federation, I

21 moved out to the municipality of Samac.

22 Q. While you were in Odzak, were Serbs returning, those that had been

23 detained or those who had fled, were they returning to the territory of

24 Odzak?

25 A. Yes, but as far as the Serbs who had fled to different places,

Page 17355

1 relatively few people returned to Odzak, so until the end of 1992, Odzak

2 had literally only 126 citizens. There were mostly almost 100 per cent

3 former citizens of Odzak but in those villages of the local commune,

4 refugees did come back, depending on where they had been, anywhere in the

5 former Yugoslavia, or somewhere else, and then I also know that our Serbs

6 from imprisonment came back from the territory of the municipality of

7 Odzak, and I think that at the end of 1992, whether there were two or

8 three exchanges that took place. I know that because the military

9 administration organised the dinner in the hotel and there was a Buffet.

10 People were welcomed. They had a rest. They had something to eat and

11 then there was a bus that was brought and then they were driven to their

12 homes, depending where they were from, Dubica, Vranjak, Novi Grad and so

13 on.

14 Q. And refugees from other parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina, did they come

15 to Odzak during that time period? Not people who had lived in Odzak

16 before the war, in the municipality of Odzak but did people come from

17 other parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

18 A. Yes, in January 1993, there were refugees who came from the

19 villages of Bistrica, Ljeskovica and Gostovici. These are from the

20 municipality of Zavidovici. They came and they started living in villages

21 that used to be Croat villages, that is Novo Selo and Dubica. Gornja

22 Dubica.

23 Q. I think that we are nearing the end of the examination. I will

24 just confer.

25 MR. LAZAREVIC: If I may consult my counsel?

Page 17356


2 [Defence counsel confer]

3 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. Thank you. I have no further questions for

4 this witness.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Any other counsel wishes to examine the witness?

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Miroslav Tadic's defence

7 has no questions for this witness.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pantelic?

9 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, I have a couple of questions for this

10 witness.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well.

12 MR. PANTELIC: Very brief issues, yes.

13 Cross-examined by Mr. Pantelic:

14 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Gavric, my name is Pantelic, I have Defence

15 counsel for Dr. Blagoje Simic. I'm just going to ask you some questions.

16 A. Could you please speak into the microphone?

17 Q. Can you hear me well?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Yesterday, when you were answering the questions of my colleague

20 regarding the survey on the situation of the facilities in Odzak, you said

21 that the author was Rajko Dervenic. Do you remember that?

22 A. Yes, I do.

23 Q. Rajko Dervenic was from Doboj, he was from the police; is that

24 correct?

25 A. Rajko Dervenic, until the war broke out in Odzak, in April, he was

Page 17357

1 a director of the water supply company in Odzak. He then left Odzak and

2 went to Doboj, and he worked in SUP, that is in MUP, in Doboj, on -- as an

3 accountant, because he had economics degree.

4 Q. And considering that he had a degree in economics, he knew about

5 the economic capacity; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Considering that Doboj is south of Doboj -- south of Odzak, does

8 this mean that there were certain interests to do with Odzak?

9 A. I really couldn't answer that question.

10 Q. Can you tell me, was he killed sometime in the autumn of 1992?

11 A. Yes, yes, sometime.

12 Q. He was killed in Doboj; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. This report that he compiled, you discussed that at the council of

15 the military administration?

16 A. No, no, no, no. That is the report which I saw for the first time

17 when Rajko came to the -- the late Rajko came to me, to my office to ask

18 me informally, ask me how I was and to send me greetings from my wife who

19 was working under the work obligation in Doboj. So among other things, he

20 told me that he and another group of people had created, compiled this

21 report, and he told me, "have a look at this," and to tell you the truth,

22 I didn't look at it in the detail, I just leafed through it and as far as

23 I was able to say, I said, "that's very well, Rajko, it seems that there

24 is a lot that's left." And that was all our conversation. It didn't last

25 more than five minutes. He went to a meeting of the civilian-military

Page 17358

1 administration, that was held that day, also in the building of the staff

2 of the TO, where I had my office but it was in a different part of the

3 building.

4 Q. So he went to that meeting with the report?

5 A. Pardon?

6 Q. He went to the meeting with that report; is that correct?

7 A. Yes. And I don't know who he handed the report to, to be honest.

8 Q. Do you have any information -- now you just said to my colleague

9 that nine times your house had been broken into in Odzak. Do you have any

10 information as to who had been taking items from your house?

11 A. I know that these were our people, Serbs, who had done that,

12 nothing else, I never -- I never caught any one red-handed individually.

13 Q. Can you tell me, as part of the area of -- in the -- of the

14 military administration, was military police active?

15 A. It was. They were deployed at checkpoints.

16 Q. Did you file any kind of criminal report against the persons,

17 persons unknown, who had done this to you, who had broken into your house?

18 Did you do anything because of what had been done to your house?

19 A. No, no, no, no. That was impossible. Not just to bring it before

20 the council, it was impossible to control, because my -- not just my house

21 but Odzak didn't have many citizens. It was practically out of the way,

22 although it was in the centre of town. So it's not that any -- that

23 burglar would have been afraid of being seen. This could have happened in

24 the middle of the day, not just my -- this just didn't happen to my house

25 but happened to most houses and flats.

Page 17359

1 Q. Did you complain to anyone verbally? Did you tell anyone about

2 this problem, anyone who was the authority in the military administration?

3 JUDGE MUMBA: I don't see where this is taking us in relation to

4 the defence of your client.

5 MR. PANTELIC: Your Honour, that is actually my last question,

6 just to cover the -- I would say chain of command within the military

7 administration, who is in charge for what, including security of the

8 persons, properties et cetera.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: All right.

10 MR. PANTELIC: So simply as that, nothing more.

11 JUDGE MUMBA: So that's the last question.

12 MR. PANTELIC: That's the last question, yes.

13 Q. So can you just tell me this: Did you complain to anyone verbally

14 from the military administration about the problems you had with the

15 house?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. To whom did you complain?

18 A. Specifically, now I've forgotten, he was a captain, to the captain

19 of the military police, I complained to him and to the main security

20 officer of the military administration, the two of them, but their reply

21 was, oh, that would have to be -- you -- one would have to have secret

22 agents to hide and to see who would come to that house.

23 Q. Thank you, Mr. Gavric.

24 JUDGE MUMBA: The Prosecution?

25 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, thank you, Your Honours.

Page 17360

1 Cross-examined by Mr. Di Fazio:

2 Q. Mr. Gavric, I hope to be brief with you this afternoon. And to

3 help me in that task of being brief, if you can answer questions with a

4 yes or a no, that will speed up this whole process and we can finish this

5 hopefully quickly. You mentioned that one of the men who came to do

6 plumbing work in Odzak was a large man with a mustache, nicknamed Dasa?

7 A. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

8 Q. Can you remember his name?

9 A. To be honest, I didn't ask him about his name then even.

10 Q. Okay. If I suggested to you his name was Izet Ramusovic, would

11 that -- would you agree with me?

12 A. I wouldn't be sure, because I really never asked his name and last

13 name.

14 Q. All right.

15 A. Really.

16 Q. Thank you, thank you, that's fine. Okay. The municipality of

17 Odzak, as it existed before the war, had a very sizeable population of

18 Croats and Muslims, didn't it? Both in the town itself and in the area

19 outlying the town but within the municipality, correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Were there more Croat villages than there were Serb villages in

22 the outlying areas of the Odzak municipality?

23 A. Yes, yes. Yesterday I listed that. I'll repeat now, that there

24 were nine.

25 Q. That's unnecessary. All I want to know, there were more Croat

Page 17361

1 villages than there were Serb?

2 A. Yes, yes, yes, that's correct.

3 Q. Your position is that after the Serb forces had taken over Odzak,

4 almost all of these Croats and Muslims, both from within the town of Odzak

5 and in the outlying areas of the municipality of Odzak, had gone?

6 A. Yes. I found no one there, according to the information I had

7 obtained from a Serb woman whom I met on the first day, the 17th of July,

8 in Odzak. That was what she told me.

9 Q. All right. And is that the position from what you could see for

10 yourself?

11 A. No. Because I arrived, because I arrived in Odzak on the 17th of

12 July, and I found no one there, not a soul, not a single civilian, Croat

13 or Muslim.

14 Q. Okay. Thank you. That meant, didn't it, that there were

15 substantial numbers of Croat homes and Muslim homes and Croat businesses

16 and Muslim businesses where the owners had fled?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you. Savo Popovic was a member of the Crisis Staff, the

19 Serb Crisis Staff, in Bosanski Samac, wasn't he?

20 A. I don't know that, because I didn't go to Samac in 1992, not since

21 new year of 1992, not a single time. Therefore I know nothing about that.

22 Q. Okay. You may not have gone to Samac but does that mean that you

23 didn't know, you weren't informed in some way, of his membership of the

24 Serb Crisis Staff in Bosanski Samac?

25 A. I never asked him. I don't mind other people's business,

Page 17362

1 especially private business, I'm that sort every person. I never asked

2 him about his position. All I know is that he had been into football

3 before the war. He was a coach of a local team over there but what you're

4 asking me about, really I don't know. I don't wish to say something here

5 that I'm not sure about.

6 Q. Very well, thank you. Your appointment, short-lived as it was, as

7 a police officer, was made by Savo Popovic, wasn't it?

8 A. No, no, no. As Jerko told me, not only me but other five

9 people -- Mirko told me, using walkie-talkie, not the phone, he talked to

10 his own superior, Stevan Todorovic, complaining that he didn't have enough

11 people, that there were only six of us there, and he said he had agreed

12 with his superior that we should also come and work as police officers in

13 Odzak pursuant to that order.

14 Q. Okay. Thank you. So Mirko Pavic assigned you and you say that he

15 told you --

16 A. Commander of the department, not Mirko Pavic, Mirko Pavic told me

17 that he had obtained approval from Stevan Todorovic, his own superior,

18 that the six of us - excuse me - should join the police.

19 Q. Thank you very much. Did Mirko Pavic appoint or at least convey

20 orders for the appointment of other policemen, other than the six that you

21 have just mentioned, yourself included?

22 A. No, no, no others, at least he didn't tell me about that.

23 Q. Were other policemen appointed in Odzak in the period of time

24 throughout 1992 and early 1993?

25 A. Well, mostly, as far as I know, it was the same group, maybe they

Page 17363

1 were one or two changes towards the end of 1993, but it was a very small

2 group. There were perhaps two or three people. I'm not sure, people who

3 returned from detention and people who had been police officers before,

4 they were detained in 1994. Well, actually 1993, thereabouts. There were

5 changes, Mirko Pavic plus another six of them plus those five who were

6 with me so that was in 1993, as far as I can remember.

7 Q. Okay. Let's just slow it down and you can tell me about 1992

8 first of all. The first group of policemen that you were aware of in

9 Odzak in 1992 was a group appointed by Stevan Todorovic of about six?

10 A. Yes, yes, approximately.

11 Q. And throughout 1992, that was about the size of the police force

12 in Odzak, some may have come, some may have gone, but that was a sort of

13 size of the group?

14 A. Yes, yes, yes.

15 Q. Did Stevan Todorovic make further appointments to the police,

16 throughout 1992? These few additions that were required?

17 A. I really don't know that. I don't know.

18 Q. Did Stevan Todorovic ever visit Odzak to handle police matters?

19 A. As far as I remember, I saw him once, but I don't know if he came

20 or how many times he came or if he came at all. I saw him once about

21 town. He was just walking around. I didn't even know Stevan Todorovic

22 back then.

23 Q. Thank you. We'll move on to another topic. You agree, I think,

24 don't you, that Odzak faced a number of infrastructure problems following

25 the war, the battle that had taken place, and they were apparent to you

Page 17364

1 when you returned to Odzak?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. The problems were extensive, they included water, getting the

4 water supply coming back on, health screening, pensions distribution,

5 setting up stores that could sell items, setting up a green market,

6 setting up a lavatory, the creation of schools, and what you've told us

7 today, cleaning up the SUP, police station, and I suppose other areas of

8 Odzak. Do you agree?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And you would agree that these were reasonably extensive problems,

11 they required time to fix, time for these repairs to be carried out?

12 A. Yes, yes, quite some time actually.

13 Q. Thank you. And in the period of time that Mr. Zaric was in Odzak,

14 these repairs were already underway? Repairs and projects, I should say.

15 A. Well, I couldn't specify about the period. You're asking me about

16 the period. That month. So if you want me to put it that way,

17 specifically in that period, the water system was back to normal and there

18 was a generator for electricity. That was put into function. The streets

19 had been cleaned, and they began cleaning the buildings too.

20 Q. Okay. In August of 1992, in August of 1992, these repair works

21 and these -- these repair works and these projects were underway?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you would agree that much of the work that was being done

24 required specialist labour as well? For example, plumbers.

25 A. Yes.

Page 17365

1 Q. There were very few civilians in Odzak in 1992, very few civilians

2 residing. It was mainly populated by the army?

3 A. As I said, until the end of 1992, there were only 126 civilian

4 inhabitants, elderly people, children, a handful of us men, some women.

5 We, the men --

6 Q. Thank you. And so therefore, the workers to carry out these

7 repairs to infrastructure conduct the sort of projects that you have told

8 us about, had to come from elsewhere, didn't they?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And a good number of them came from the Samac municipality, didn't

11 they?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And most of them were of non-Serb ethnicity, most of them were

14 Muslims and Croats, weren't they?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And the organ or the body or the institution that supplied these

17 workers carrying out these repairs was the civilian administration in

18 Bosanski Samac, wasn't it?

19 MR. LAZAREVIC: I believe that it's a call for speculation. The

20 witness clearly indicated that he was not in Bosanski Samac up until the

21 end of 1992, so how could he answer whether what was happening in

22 Bosanski Samac at this point?

23 MR. DI FAZIO: He could very easily answer it. He was on the

24 ground there. There might be all sorts of sources of information on that

25 particular topic. He might have spoken to the civilian administrators by

Page 17366

1 phone, he might have spoken to the workers. He might have seen

2 proclamations, he might have received information on the topic in a

3 thousand different ways. The question is perfectly proper in my

4 submission.

5 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, the witness can answer. If he doesn't know, he

6 can say so.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, okay.

8 Q. So the body that was supplying these workers who you have said

9 came from Samac was the civilian administration in Samac, either the

10 Crisis Staff or the War Presidency or later the municipal assembly?

11 A. I don't know the exact body or institution who sent people from

12 Samac under the work obligation, so the -- what follows is that I couldn't

13 name it.

14 Q. Very well, thank you. One thing is certain, and that is this:

15 Savo Popovic was able to arrange for a supply of these non-Serb workers?

16 A. Savo Popovic told me that there was no problem in connection with

17 my tasks, under my work obligation. What the minimum of people was I

18 needed to carry out those tasks, he said he would send as many.

19 Q. Thank you. So you agree with me that Savo Popovic was able to

20 supply non-Serb workers to carry out some projects in Odzak?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And these continuing requirement -- sorry, these continuing

23 projects that you've told us about, continuing infrastructure works,

24 required workers continuously?

25 A. Yes.

Page 17367

1 Q. And you've testified today that throughout 1992, the number of

2 civilians residing in Odzak was very small. I think you said only about

3 126 by the end of the year, therefore the need to bring in continuing

4 numbers of workers remained the same throughout 1992? In fact remained

5 the same until the area became populated, correct?

6 A. I can't really remember the date, specific date, when people under

7 the work obligation stopped coming from Samac. I believe it was but I'm

8 not sure, truth to tell, I think it was at some point during 1992, when

9 plumbers stopped coming, because our people had returned from detention,

10 specifically three plumbers came back, they started working in Odzak, and

11 those from Samac stopped coming. Our own electrician came back and so on.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours just bear with me to allow me to

13 look at my notes from today?



16 Q. Today you said that the workers who came from Samac to carry out

17 work obligation changed. There were constant changes particularly to the

18 group of women who were conducting cleaning and other tasks. Do you

19 agree?

20 A. Well, it wasn't every day. It took about seven days to memorise

21 people's faces because I would go out and meet them in the morning and

22 during lunch but yes, occasionally some people were changed, and different

23 people, men or women, came, continually.

24 Q. Who arranged for these different -- for this stream of different

25 workers to come in and do all this work in Odzak?

Page 17368

1 A. I don't know whose task that was. I'm not familiar with that. I

2 really don't know.

3 Q. Did Savo Popovic say to you that he could arrange workers on only

4 one occasion, that is in regard to the plumbers, or did he tell you, did

5 he entertain your requests for more workers on other occasions?

6 A. I never requested workers outside the tasks that I was given by

7 the military administration, by the council. Generally speaking, from the

8 very first day, I would be given certain tasks, I'd go to the president of

9 the military council, Savo Popovic, and I'd say, "I need ten people to

10 carry out this tasks," for example, and he would say, "very well, you'll

11 get the ten people you need". But I would like to emphasise that this

12 was -- there were no great fluctuations. It was usually the same number

13 of people, or about the same number of people. It was usually between 10

14 and 20 people with very few fluctuations.

15 Q. Thank you. Who would decide which tasks had to be done?

16 A. In Odzak, myself, as all the other commissioners, across the local

17 communes, the civilian-military administration was in charge, and they

18 were responsible to the military administration.

19 Q. So commissioners such as yourself would make an assessment of the

20 job that needed to be done in their area, they would then go to the

21 military administration -- civilian-military administration, explain the

22 job that needed to be done and the civilian-military administration would

23 arrange for the workers to do the job?

24 A. No, no. We didn't have authority to act on our own. Whatever the

25 military administration considered necessary, what they thought needed

Page 17369

1 doing, I told you that was the task of the military-civilian council and I

2 tried to carry out such tasks in the best way possible.

3 MR. LAZAREVIC: I apologise. I believe that the answer of the

4 witness was not properly recorded. He said actually, what the military

5 administration considered necessary, they would forward these to the

6 military-civilian council and then they would forward it to us as

7 commissioners. That was actually what I heard, but I --

8 MR. DI FAZIO: All right.

9 Q. So the top body in the municipality of Odzak, the military

10 administration, or military -- the military would decide what jobs had to

11 be done, having made a decision, they would in turn go to this

12 civilian-military administration, and the civilian-military administration

13 would in turn distribute the tasks to various commissioners such as

14 yourself?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. All right. Are you aware of other commissioners such as yourself

17 going to the civilian-military administration and seeking workers to carry

18 out tasks?

19 A. Not that I know about.

20 Q. Are you aware of other members of the civilian-military

21 administration, apart from Savo Popovic, organising workers to carry out

22 tasks?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. Approximately how many members were there on the civilian-military

25 administration? Apart from Savo Popovic.

Page 17370

1 A. As I said yesterday, to the best of my recollection, 11, a total

2 of 11.

3 Q. One of whom was Simo Zaric, correct?

4 A. Simo Zaric, for the first ten or 15 days, before he started

5 working on security tasks.

6 Q. Thank you. All right. Let's get this clear. Simo Zaric was on

7 the civilian-military administration, correct, yes or no?

8 A. Civilian-military council, yes.

9 Q. Thank you. Simo Zaric worked on this civilian-military council,

10 assisting it, for a period of ten or 15 days? And that was

11 before -- before he started security tasks?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And Simo Zaric was doing his level best, wasn't he, to restore

14 civilian life, to contribute to the repairs of the infrastructure of

15 Odzak, correct?

16 A. Well, I think Simo had no tasks related to that, as far as I know,

17 from my personal experience. He was not involved with that. It was up to

18 Savo Popovic, the president of the civilian-military council only.

19 Q. What was he doing for the first ten or 15 days before he

20 transferred to attending to security tasks?

21 A. Truth to tell, I don't know.

22 Q. However, you are clear and certain that he was there for ten or 15

23 days, that he was not engaged in security tasks and during that ten or 15

24 days, he was on the military-civilian council?

25 A. As I said, Simo Zaric spent a total of about 30 days in Odzak.

Page 17371

1 Between ten and 15 days -- He didn't stay long as security officer. So

2 half the time he was on the military council and the remaining part of the

3 time he spent in Odzak he worked on security-related tasks.

4 Q. Thank you. And he was a high-ranking official, wasn't he, in the

5 civilian-military council in Odzak because he was the deputy, wasn't he,

6 to Savo Popovic?

7 A. As far as I know, he was not Savo Popovic's deputy. He was only a

8 member of the civilian-military council to the best of my knowledge.

9 Q. Did you ever attend any meetings of the civilian-military council

10 in Odzak?

11 A. Only the first meeting, when all the commissioners were in

12 attendance, all the commissioners of the local commune, only the first

13 meeting, we were there, and after that we no longer took part in the work

14 of the civilian-military council, but rather commissioners would be given

15 tasks from the president of the civilian-military council in their

16 respective local communes.

17 Q. Thank you. So the military-civilian council held an initial

18 meeting, and present were Savo Popovic and Mr. Simo Zaric and other

19 members of the civilian-military council?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In addition to the members of the civilian-military council at

22 this meeting, you and other commissioners attended, to be briefed on your

23 tasks and how to go about your job?

24 A. Well, yes, in principle, we were given tasks, but then the

25 president of the civilian-military council said that he would talk

Page 17372

1 individually to each of the commissioners of the local commune and give

2 them their tasks. That he would go to each of these villages and give

3 them tasks, every commissioner would be talked to individually, at the

4 local commune where this commissioner was working, and that's -- that was

5 the case with me, when he told me that the first task would be to carry

6 out repairs to the water system, which I did.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: Is this an appropriate time for the break, Your

9 Honours?

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, we will continue our proceedings at 1615 hours.

11 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio?

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.

15 Q. Mr. Gavric, after this first meeting that you've told us about, of

16 the civilian-military council at which Savo Popovic and Simo Zaric were

17 present, did you attend any other meetings of that body?

18 A. Could you please repeat the question? I didn't understand you.

19 Q. Certainly.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: And please be close to the microphone.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: Sorry, I didn't realise I was distant from it. I

22 will adjust.

23 Q. You've told us that you went to a meeting of the civilian-military

24 council and present were Savo Popovic and Mr. Simo Zaric. Apart from

25 that --

Page 17373

1 A. Just a moment ago I told you when you asked me, when I said that

2 we were at the first meeting, all of us commissioners of the local

3 communes, which was attended by all of the members of the

4 civilian-military council, headed by Mr. Savo Popovic, and among other

5 people, members of the civilian-military council, there was also Mr. Simo

6 Zaric who was there.

7 Q. Thank you. Okay. Now apart -- apart from that meeting, did you

8 go to any other meetings of the civilian-military council?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Were you aware of where -- of how often the civilian-military

11 council met, how often they convened?

12 A. As it happens, I know that because I lived and worked in Odzak,

13 because my office was on the second floor and they were on the first

14 floor, and so when I saw that they were all gathering there, I assumed

15 that the meeting was going to be held, of the council, and this -- that

16 happened at least once a week, as far as I can recall, although I didn't

17 attend the meetings, I wasn't involved in that.

18 Q. Thank you. And do you know if Mr. Simo Zaric attended these

19 weekly meetings?

20 A. It's hard to remember now. If you're insisting on how many

21 meetings he was, I don't know how many meetings there were, from the very

22 first meeting, and then for a fortnight, whether there were three, four or

23 six, and I cannot tell you exactly. I know he attended the first meeting

24 but whether he also attended all the time all the others, I don't know, I

25 can't tell you because I don't know.

Page 17374

1 Q. Thank you very much. We'll move on to another topic. You

2 supervised the four Muslim men who repaired the waterworks?

3 A. Yes. Yes. Myself and the policeman who was providing security.

4 Q. Thank you. In addition to supervising that particular job, did

5 you supervise other jobs?

6 A. Yes. There were jobs for the other part of the work obligation,

7 the one that I mentioned, which was to clean the buildings of the

8 hospital, and then the administration buildings of all the companies,

9 sorting out the archive files and all the other jobs, so I oversaw these

10 jobs as well, together with the policeman who wasn't supervising but he

11 was providing security, physically.

12 Q. Thank you and this policeman who was supervising, was he one of

13 Todorovic's policemen from Bosanski Samac?

14 MR. LAZAREVIC: I have no problem with the question in respect to

15 Mr. Todorovic, I apologise, but the way the previous answer of the witness

16 was that he was supervising and the policeman was providing security, and

17 now the question was and this policeman who was supervising.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: I apologise. That's not what I meant. I will

19 change it.

20 Q. The policeman who was guarding or providing security, was

21 he -- was he one of the policemen working for Todorovic from

22 Bosanski Samac?

23 A. Well, let me tell you, because there was, and this is something I

24 mentioned earlier, the work was done in about three or four groups, of

25 those 25 people who came for their work obligation, so each working group

Page 17375

1 had their own policeman that was providing security, and it was a normal

2 thing that among those people, there were policemen who had been -- who

3 had come from the police station in Samac.

4 Q. And one of them was a man named Stojan Blagojevic, I believe?

5 A. No, no, no, no.

6 Q. Do you know who Stojan Blagojevic is?

7 A. Sorry, Stojan Blagojevic, I did not know him. I said that in my

8 testimony yesterday, I didn't know him personally, until he -- he

9 came -- he brought these four plumbers. There was a driver, he was the

10 co-driver. It was later on from Mirko Pavic that I heard that this man

11 was called Stojan Blagojevic and that he was responsible for these four

12 men being brought from Samac to Odzak. That's what I said yesterday.

13 Q. Okay. So he was the escort who accompanied them from

14 Bosanski Samac to Odzak to carry out their work assignment?

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. All of the projects that you conducted, were they all conducted in

17 the Odzak area?

18 A. That part of the work obligation from Samac that was given to me

19 to be carried out, apart from the cases when there was one intervention

20 that I spoke about yesterday, at the cattle farm yesterday, in Novi Grad,

21 when Dasa went with the policeman, the other interventions, the working

22 group that worked in Odzak did not go outside Odzak. I don't know whether

23 there was a group from Samac that came and went to other locations. I

24 know nothing about that.

25 Q. You experienced -- let me withdraw that.

Page 17376

1 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours just bear with me while I look at

2 my material, please?



5 Q. Mr. Gavric, Mr. Zaric was interviewed on the 2nd of April, 1998 by

6 officers of the Office of the Prosecutor, Defence counsel will find this

7 at page 95 of P141 ter. And the officer who interviewed him asked him

8 this question: We've heard that a number of non-Serbs from Samac

9 municipality had to go to Odzak to do different types of forced labour.

10 Were you involved in any of that activity, forced labour activity? And

11 Mr. Zaric replied: I know it took place. I was not involved. This kind

12 of mandatory labour was also obvious in Samac, and they were mainly

13 related to the non-Serbian population. My wife Fatima received a call-up

14 paper that she had to clean the streets. Of course, it isn't a problem,

15 management of labour isn't a problem if you distribute them among

16 everybody who is not involved. But it was only to do with the

17 discrimination of non-Serbian population that were forced to clean the

18 streets or carry out heavy manual labour. Decision for that was made by

19 the Secretariat for National Defence and that man in charge was

20 Bozo Ninkovic, a member of the Crisis Staff and somebody who had influence

21 over that problem.

22 Now, do you agree with Mr. Zaric's assessment that forced labour

23 took place in Odzak, just as it did in Samac?

24 A. Well, I don't know how this forced labour was organised in Samac,

25 but the fact is that the work obligation group that came from Samac to

Page 17377

1 work in Odzak, starting from the plumbers and then this group that came to

2 clean, they worked the work hours from 8.00 to 1600 hours in the

3 afternoon. They had a break for lunch that I told you about. They ate

4 lunch together with us at the hotel. None of us, specifically myself, we

5 never forced them to work, to, as we say, really break their backs

6 working. It was never said, "today, five offices have to be finished."

7 And the same thing went for the plumbers as well. They did work in Odzak,

8 but they were not forced to work until they were exhausted. They were

9 working as if there was no war, but everything else, as to who was sending

10 them and as regards with that unfortunate war, well, I really don't know

11 what was going on in Samac. I'm telling you about Odzak, and I guarantee,

12 I guarantee, I put my life on what I -- what happened in Odzak. I told

13 you all about it, what was happening in Odzak is that the first day they

14 were given policemen to provide security for them, for their own personal

15 physical safety, because nothing could happen to them in Odzak while I was

16 there, while I was working there.

17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Gavric. However, I'm not seeking a description of

18 the working day of these people. I merely ask you this: Mr. Simo Zaric

19 has described this sort of work in Odzak and in Samac as forced labour.

20 Do you have any reason to disagree with him?

21 MR. LAZAREVIC: I apologise, one second, please.

22 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic?

23 MR. LAZAREVIC: I was reading this portion of Mr. Zaric's

24 interview and I never seen these words being used, that "forced labour".

25 It was working obligation, the words that were used. And I believe that

Page 17378

1 we have one slight problem. My colleague, when he reads in English, and

2 since I believe that the interpreters don't have before them this

3 particular document, so that what we received is not actually what is in

4 B/C/S in the document, so in order to facilitate all this, maybe the

5 document could be shown to the witness and read it instead of receiving a

6 translation that is not 100 per cent accurate with the one that we have in

7 the document.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: I rely on the translations that I get, if Your

9 Honours please, the words that I've seen in the question were -- "had to

10 go to Odzak to do different types of forced labour, forced labour

11 activity" in the question, then in the answer, "mandatory labour".

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. The question contained the term "forced

13 labour," and then in the answer, it's "mandatory labour".

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Mandatory labour it strikes me he's talking about

15 forced labour and refers to the discriminatory aspect in his answer. I

16 was going to --

17 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, because the other problem with that is we have

18 the other term, work obligation which would appear to be nearer to

19 mandatory labour.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: I don't speak B/C/S I use what material I have

21 before me and this is the answer I have translated. I'm happy, I think

22 it's only fair, that the witness be shown the actual text of Mr. Zaric's

23 answer, and perhaps he can read it out and any problems with the --

24 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, but the other point I was looking at the

25 answers of this witness, and his explanations, he wouldn't be the one who

Page 17379

1 would be able to conclude whether that was forced labour. He has

2 explained how these people were working, the hours and how they were

3 having lunch together. That's all he can say. The conclusion that that

4 was forced labout, I don't think it's up to this witness to say.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Very well, You Honours.

6 Q. Let me move on to another topic. You've told us that following

7 the departure of Serb forces -- sorry, following the arrival of Serb

8 forces, the Croat and Muslim population largely disappeared from Odzak,

9 and that they left their homes and businesses. Was property collected --

10 MR. KRGOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I object. So far, the

11 witness said that the population of Odzak, Croats and Muslims, left before

12 the arrival of Serb forces, not after the arrival. And I think that this

13 is confusing to the -- for the witness.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: The point is taken and Mr. Krgovic is correct.

15 That's a mistake on my part. I'll rephrase my question.

16 Q. You've told us that Croat and Muslims -- Croats and Muslims

17 largely left the province -- the municipality of Odzak prior to the

18 arrival of Serb forces, and that that left homes and businesses

19 unoccupied. Was the property that was left behind by those Croats and

20 Muslims collected in any sort of organised fashion?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Do you know what happened to it?

23 A. I don't, no. I am not aware of that.

24 Q. Did you ever see groups of labourers from Samac collecting

25 possessions from Croat homes or Croat businesses or Muslim homes and

Page 17380

1 Muslim businesses?

2 A. I did not see that in Odzak. Perhaps -- no, no. This is in

3 relation to people in Samac. Perhaps it happened but no, no, I didn't see

4 that.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Sorry, would Your Honours just bear with me? I

6 think I can speed up my cross-examination if you just give me a few

7 moments.



10 Q. You've said that you were shown a list of factories and property

11 in those factories by your friend very soon after your arrival in Odzak.

12 He showed you the document that he had prepared. Do you recall that

13 evidence?

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 Q. And do you know on whose instructions he prepared that list and

16 that document?

17 A. Could you please repeat the question?

18 Q. Do you know who told him to carry out that survey and prepare that

19 document?

20 A. To tell you the truth, he didn't tell me, nor did I ask him that.

21 As it happens, what happened, happened so I couldn't tell you.

22 Q. Thank you. Mr. Zaric was also interviewed on the 3rd of June,

23 1998, by -- again by officers of the Office of the Prosecutor. For the

24 purposes of Defence counsel they will find this at P142 ter, B/C/S at page

25 137, English at page 138. And he was describing events in Odzak just

Page 17381

1 after the takeover by Serb forces, and said that when he arrived in Odzak,

2 much material had been taken by Croatian forces but a lot still remained

3 in factories and that a commission, as part of the military council, went

4 from company to company and wrote down the machines, what was there in

5 terms of finished products, what state it was in, how much wheat or corn

6 there was, how many domestic animals, and the military council wrote all

7 this down and through Commander Popovic transferred it to the Crisis Staff

8 in Samac.

9 Now, do you have any idea what Mr. Zaric was talking about when he

10 said that? Are you aware of what phenomenon, events, he was describing?

11 A. I don't know about these events and I don't know when that

12 happened. If that happened at the first meeting and the subsequent

13 meetings that I did not attend, then I did not attend the meeting at which

14 Mr. Zaric was talking about, so I don't know.

15 Q. Did your friend who provided you with the document, the list - and

16 for the purposes of the record I'm speaking of D49/4 - tell you that in

17 addition to factories, he or his associates had conducted a survey of

18 crops, agricultural products, animals?

19 A. No, because when I was talking in relation to this, I said that we

20 were there for a very short time, when he showed me that, we were just

21 five minutes. First we were talking informally and then it was just

22 coincidence that he showed me this document but there was nothing else in

23 relation to this that we spoke of, not later, absolutely I even forgot

24 about that document. We never discussed it any more.

25 Q. Thank you. And just finally, on this issue, Mr. Zaric, in the

Page 17382

1 same answer, went on to say: Every day it was organised through the

2 executive council and their institutions, they took these machines and

3 these goods, they say that they sold them and gave up some of these goods

4 so that the Army of Republika Srpska could be fed but I believe that a

5 large amount went into their pockets, of which I have no physical evidence

6 but it went that way because it was looted, and that's the way things were

7 done during this war.

8 Now the aspect of what he said that I'm interested in is this:

9 Are you aware of the executive council or I should say the

10 civilian-military administration, organising the seizure of assets,

11 property, and transferring it to Bosanski Samac?

12 MR. LAZAREVIC: I believe that.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know about that.

14 MR. LAZAREVIC: I believe there is some confusion here. I believe

15 that we have a confusion here. First of all, who Mr. Zaric was referring

16 at, when he spoke about executive council, I mean that by now we know that

17 there wasn't any executive council in Odzak. Whether he was referring to

18 Bosanski Samac, that's -- maybe not up to, but Mr. Zaric will give his

19 explanation at that point but I believe that the way the question is

20 posed, it's very confusing for this witness.


22 MR. DI FAZIO: All right.

23 Q. Let me ask you, are you aware of the military council recording

24 extensive lists of property and through Commander Popovic, transferring it

25 to the Crisis Staff in Bosanski Samac? Did you hear or see anything that

Page 17383

1 indicated that that was occurring?

2 A. No. I have never seen or heard anything about this.

3 Q. Okay. In the course of that interview, the interviewer asked

4 Mr. Zaric if he had -- if he said that he had no knowledge of looting, if

5 Mr. Zaric had no knowledge of looting, and he replied, "When I talk about

6 this looting, I said it was done in an organised manner." And then he

7 went on to deny personal involvement. Did you see anything that looked

8 like organised looting to you in Odzak?

9 A. In view of the fact that you couldn't take anything out of Odzak

10 through the checkpoints without the relevant permissions issued by the

11 military council and the military administration, there were lorries that

12 goods were being loaded on to, but personally I don't know whether these

13 goods were taken to Samac or elsewhere. They were going somewhere with

14 those items but I can't say where and it wouldn't be right for me to claim

15 something that I'm not positive about.

16 Q. Fair enough, fair enough. Who was loading the lorries?

17 A. Frankly, I did not personally witness any of the loadings, nor did

18 I personally see people load things on to the trucks. I don't know how

19 many of them were there, nor who they were. I'm really not aware of that.

20 Q. Then on what do you base your assertion that you -- that trucks

21 were loaded with goods?

22 A. I'm not sure if you understood me correctly. What I said is that

23 I didn't know how the goods were loaded because I thought you were

24 speaking about heavy items. I'm not sure if you meant equipment or

25 machinery. So you needed mechanical equipment to load that on to the

Page 17384

1 trucks, and I did not see any such mechanical equipment being used. I had

2 no opportunity to personally witness this because the companies were

3 within the compound or perimeter. I did not go to these companies, not

4 most of them any way, because each had their own commissioners who

5 probably knew what was happening within the perimeter of a certain

6 company. So the commissioners for specific companies would have known

7 probably but I didn't know. It wasn't -- it wasn't my responsibility to

8 know these things. It wasn't my duty.

9 Q. All right. Let's move on to another topic.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the witness be shown Exhibit P103, please?

11 Mr. Usher, may I just see the document before it's handed to the witness?

12 Thank you.

13 Q. Mr. Gavric, this document is a decision to establish a committee

14 for negotiations on territorial boundaries with Modrica and Brod

15 municipalities, and it says that a number of men will be on this

16 committee. One of them is Blagoje Simic. Above his name appears to be

17 your name. Am I correct?

18 A. Yes, yes, that's my name.

19 Q. You were on this committee for negotiations on territorial

20 boundaries?

21 A. Let me tell you, I've never laid eyes on this decision before. As

22 far as this other thing is concerned, Samac and Brod, I know that there

23 was a meeting in connection with that, and I attended that meeting.

24 However, Mr. Blagoje Simic was present too. The President from Brod, from

25 Modrica, and present too were the commissioners for the local communes,

Page 17385

1 Colonel Gojko from the 1st Krajina Corps, Talic's assistant, or rather

2 deputy for civilian affairs was present too. The meeting began in Odzak.

3 However, at that meeting, nothing specific in relation to this was agreed.

4 As far as I know, because later I no longer took part in any talks related

5 to this subject, or negotiations concerning the territorial boundaries

6 within these municipalities. I don't think there ever was an agreement on

7 that. That's what I can tell you concerning this decision of the 16th of

8 November, 1992.

9 Q. Thank you. First of all, when was the meeting in Odzak that you

10 have just described or mentioned?

11 A. This Odzak, this meeting in Odzak, excuse me, I remember the

12 weather was fine, we were wearing light clothes. I don't know if it could

13 have been November, because that's a very cold month. So I can't give you

14 the exact month and what I said it was a very brief meeting, as far as

15 this subject is concerned.

16 Q. Blagoje Simic was present?

17 A. Yes, as far as I remember.

18 Q. What did he say and do at the meeting?

19 A. Well, Mr. Blagoje mainly -- the Colonel -- Colonel Gojko was the

20 main speaker, not Gojkovic, Gojko. I don't know who first had the idea

21 about the territorial division of Odzak municipality but I know that not

22 even the Presidents of the local communes who attended the meeting were

23 interested at that point in any kind of territorial division of Odzak

24 municipality, and for certain parts of Odzak to be given to the

25 municipality. This meeting took off in a tone that wasn't really serious.

Page 17386

1 Not on the part of Colonel Gojko, not on the part of Mr. Blagoje, not on

2 the part of the presidents of the local communes but rather in that group,

3 there was a group of about ten people from Gnionica and Josava, those

4 villages who came to that meeting on their own initiative, as far as the

5 commissioners were concerned all the commissioners from Odzak municipality

6 were present, and this group, to tell you the truth, worked on carrying

7 out territorial division of Odzak and even they wanted to carve up the

8 town of Odzak down the main street, all sort of nonsense was being said at

9 that meeting. Eventually the meeting drew to a close and everyone

10 dispersed and went their own way. And nothing was ever done concerning

11 this. That's what I can tell you in connection with this specific

12 decision. And the commission, this committee, they never met again in

13 this composition, with these people present, apart from this one meeting.

14 We never met again. We never talked again, not even individually,

15 certainly not in connection with this subject.

16 Q. I see. Anyway, we can be clear, can't we, that the meeting was

17 in pre-November, because it was warm weather? We can be clear that

18 Blagoje Simic attended? And we can be clear that the army had its

19 representatives as well at this meeting because of Colonel Gojko's

20 presence, correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And your position is that all of you men got together, had this

23 meeting regarding the demarcation of the municipalities, but nothing ever

24 came of it. You never had anything more to do with this topic, this group

25 of men, or this issue.

Page 17387

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, the document that you have before you is dated the 6th of

3 November, 1992 and sets up this committee?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Were you aware of the committee having been set up even if you did

6 nothing on it?

7 MR. LAZAREVIC: I must say that I personally don't understand this

8 question.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, my question is --

10 MR. LAZAREVIC: Could it be a little -- in a different way posed

11 to the witness? I have some doubts about --

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Okay.

13 Q. Were you aware of the Crisis Staff of Bosanski Samac -- sorry, the

14 War Presidency of the -- of Samac municipality deciding to set up this

15 committee, of which you were to be a member, notwithstanding the fact that

16 you never later participated in any such committee?

17 A. No, no.

18 Q. Who is Dragomir Tesanovic?

19 A. Dragomir Tesanovic, he hails from Novi Grad. He was the president

20 of the SDS for Odzak municipality. He had been in detention as well as

21 the other men from the territory of Odzak municipality. He came back from

22 detention, I don't know when exactly he returned. At some point in 1992.

23 And I know that he started working in Samac. Whether for the municipality

24 or for a company, but I think it was the municipality, but I don't know

25 what jobs and work tasks exactly. He's a mechanical engineer by

Page 17388

1 profession.

2 Q. And who is Aco Minic?

3 A. Aco Minic was a commissioner in the village of Donja Dubica. He

4 was a teacher by profession. He spent the whole of this time as

5 commissioner for Donja Dubica throughout the period that I was in Odzak.

6 Q. Did you have any special qualifications regarding surveying or map

7 reading or map making, any geographical qualifications?

8 A. No, no. The difference that Mr. Tesanovic, after the multi-party

9 government was established, he was working for the land surveying office.

10 He was its head. Probably Aco and I came to the group because then, in

11 that area, the three of us were seen as the most educated people and the

12 only people who had the same level of education in that specific period,

13 that's as much as I can tell you right now, as I'm looking at this

14 document.

15 Q. Thank you. Tell us about the meeting that you actually attended.

16 Did you know what its purpose was before you went there?

17 A. That there would be a meeting that day, Mr. Dragomir came and Aco

18 too, they came together to my office, and they said -- I don't know when

19 it was supposed to take place, whether at 10.00, they said that a meeting

20 would be held on -- in connection with that issue, and that I too was

21 invited, and that all commissioners were invited to the meeting. That's

22 how it was, all the other commissioners from the local communes, that they

23 would attend the meeting and that we would talk about the territorial

24 division of Odzak municipality but we didn't specify, we didn't say

25 anything about that, and nothing ever came of it, as I said.

Page 17389

1 Q. Were you asked to conduct any specific tasks at that meeting?

2 A. No, no, no. We didn't talk about that.

3 Q. Did you speak to Blagoje Simic regarding setting up a possible

4 committee or -- committee to deal with negotiations on territorial

5 boundaries?

6 A. No.

7 Q. In fact, in fact, the municipality of Odzak was divided up and the

8 town itself subsequently became part of the municipality, the Serbian

9 Municipality of Bosanski Samac -- of Samac?

10 A. Can I please have the interpretation again, slowly? The question.

11 As far as I know, the former municipality of Odzak, that was part

12 of the military council, was never formally or officially or unofficially

13 divided up into these three local communes.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, municipalities.

15 A. Because the whole thing was going on under the control of the

16 military administration.

17 Q. How well did you know Blagoje Simic in 1992?

18 A. Blagoje Simic, I met him two or three times in 1992 or later, and

19 even that, by pure chance, except this one meeting that we attended

20 together.

21 Q. So he was not at all well known to you? He was in no way your

22 close friend or acquaintance?

23 A. No, no. Before the war, I didn't even know who he was. I didn't

24 know too many people in Samac.

25 Q. Right. And he would have -- I'll withdraw that question. How

Page 17390

1 well did you know Dragomir Tesanovic?

2 A. Mr. Tesanovic, the first time I met him, unofficially, was when he

3 took up his duty, regardless of the fact that he had been the president of

4 the municipal board of the SDS. It was just by accident when he took up

5 the duty of the head of the land surveyors office because I needed a

6 document from there in relation to my property, and that was the only

7 meeting we had before the war. During 1992, I met Tesanovic, I bumped

8 into him several times in the street, not in relation to any meetings and

9 then when he came back from detention, when he was having dinner at the

10 hotel, so there are no special relations involved. We are not really

11 friends. It's -- he's just an acquaintance in a very general sense of the

12 word, an almost-accidental acquaintance I should say.

13 Q. You had no close working relationship with him in any way, nor a

14 close personal friendship with him?

15 A. No, no, not before the war, not during.

16 Q. What about Aco Minic? How well did you know him in 1992?

17 A. Aco Minic, we've known each other since we were kids. He lived in

18 Donja Dubica, he's a teacher of history and geography. I lived in Odzak

19 myself and whenever our paths crossed, we would greet each other, we would

20 stop to talk before the war. So it was -- we were not on visiting terms.

21 We weren't close friends, we were acquaintances. From time to time we

22 would sort of meet and then have a word or two, exchange pleasantries and

23 that was that.

24 Q. And I take it that he didn't raise the topic with you of serving

25 on a committee for boundaries?

Page 17391

1 A. Who do you mean?

2 Q. Aco Minic. He didn't ever speak to you --

3 A. No, no. As I said, he and Dragomir came to see me at the office

4 that day in the morning and they told me there would be a meeting, and

5 they mentioned something like I said, that I had been appointed as a

6 member of a board. There was no decision but they said that there would

7 be a meeting, that certain people should attend, the people I've mentioned

8 before, from the colonel on, and that's what we talked about before the

9 meeting. That was all we talked about.

10 Q. Well, what board did they say that you had been appointed to?

11 A. They didn't say anything about any appointment, a board. They

12 only said that we should attend the meeting on that day, and that's the

13 only thing I told you.

14 Q. Mr. Gavric, the way answers were interpreted in the last one or

15 two questions is this: You said that Dragomir came that day, told you

16 there would be a meeting?

17 THE INTERPRETER: Counsel, could you please approach the

18 microphone.


20 Q. "Told you that there would be a meeting, and said that you had

21 been appointed as a member of a board." They are your own words as

22 translated. Now you say they didn't say anything about an appointment or a

23 board. Just tell me, on the day of the meeting, did anyone tell you that

24 you had been appointed to a board?

25 A. I'll answer this question but let me tell you first that my

Page 17392

1 intention was not to deny my own words. I said that I hadn't known that I

2 hadn't been told about the topic to be discussed at the meeting on that

3 day, the topic. I wasn't told about the topic by either Dragomir or Aco.

4 I think that clarifies it, and I was never shown this piece of paper.

5 Q. Okay. Okay. And your position is that the meeting that you

6 attended in Odzak at which Blagoje Simic was present, neither before that

7 meeting on that day, nor subsequently, were you ever informed of having

8 been placed on a board to deal with boundary negotiations?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Thank you?

11 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Mr. Di Fazio, I'm wondering why you're using the

12 word "board" when the document says committee.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: I was using the language of the witness as it was

14 translated to me, if Your Honours please.

15 JUDGE WILLIAMS: But I'm just wondering, in the B/C/S document,

16 what word is used?

17 MR. DI FAZIO: Perhaps I can -- I'll adopt the use of the word

18 "committee" and finally wrap up the topic and be clear so the witness is

19 clear about the matter.

20 Q. Mr. Gavric, on the day that you attended this meeting in Odzak,

21 were you informed of being appointed to any committee to deal with

22 territorial boundaries?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Okay.

25 A. It was only said that there would be a meeting in connection with

Page 17393

1 that.

2 MR. LAZAREVIC: I believe that we need one small clarification of

3 the transcript because the way the question was posed here on page 57,

4 line 2, "your position is that the meeting that you attended in Odzak, at

5 which Blagoje Simic was present, neither before the meeting or the day nor

6 subsequently," all right, the question was quite long, but it was posed in

7 a way the witness when he said no, he actually said yes, that's my

8 position. So I would really ask kindly my colleague from the Prosecution

9 to ask this witness short questions, if possible, to divide it in two or

10 three questions, otherwise we receive this kind of answer which is not the

11 actual position of the witness.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, that is clarified now, the answer of the

13 witness.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

15 Q. Mr. Gavric, on the day of the meeting in Odzak, were you asked to

16 become a member of a committee dealing with territorial boundaries?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: No further questions.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, re-examination, Mr. Lazarevic?

21 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, Your Honour, I will go very briefly through

22 this.

23 Re-examined by Mr. Lazarevic:

24 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, because my colleague from the Prosecution

25 asked a number of questions that were in some connection with the division

Page 17394

1 of the Odzak municipality, regarding certain operations and some

2 agreements and you answered that in fact the municipality of Odzak was

3 never divided between the three municipalities, Bosanski Samac, Modrica

4 and I don't know which was the third one, sorry, Bosanski Brod, yes. So

5 municipality of Odzak, the way it had been before the war, on the basis of

6 what was it divided at the end, meaning 1995, that is in 1996? How was

7 the line, the border line, drawn to -- for the division? Where was that

8 agreed?

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. Did you perhaps have a look at the Dayton agreement and its

11 annexes in respect of the division of territories?

12 A. I had looked at it but I didn't particularly study it.

13 Q. Well, in any case, the way that the Odzak municipality looks like

14 now, with regard to its previous situation before the war in Bosnia, it is

15 different, isn't it?

16 A. The only difference between the current situation of the

17 municipality of Odzak and before the war is that the current situation of

18 Odzak, the two villages Josava and Gnionica do not belong to Odzak because

19 they belong to Republika Srpska and according to the Dayton agreement, it

20 was the village of Prud that belonged to the Odzak municipality, because

21 before it belonged to the Bosanski Samac municipality.

22 Q. Precisely that. This is what I am interested in, this final

23 division of the Odzak municipality, where --

24 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, this topic wasn't raised at

25 all. In fact the witness said that he wasn't involved in any negotiations

Page 17395

1 regarding territorial boundaries. He doesn't know anything about the

2 document. He wasn't involved. This whole issue of subsequent divisions

3 of municipalities under the Dayton agreement didn't arise at all, in fact

4 the very topic of how any division of municipalities might have occurred

5 didn't arise because the witness didn't know anything about it. All he

6 said is he went to this meeting and that was the end of the matter as far

7 as he was concerned. So there was hardly anything regarding territorial

8 boundaries that needs to be clarified.

9 MR. LAZAREVIC: I will withdraw this topic. I don't intend to go

10 deeper into it. We have some much more evidence with other witnesses.

11 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, you were asked by the Prosecutor a question

12 in relation to Stojan Blagojevic, and you replied that he had brought

13 these plumbers that you talked about. On that occasion, did he also bring

14 all the other workmen that were brought in that lorry or happened to be in

15 that lorry?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you very much. Just a couple more things. You spoke of and

18 there were a number of questions by the Prosecutor in relation to the

19 civilian-military council in relation to Mr. Savo Popovic, Simo Zaric, the

20 membership and everything else. Now, what I'd like to just clarify or

21 have clarified, both your answers and the entire situation regarding

22 the -- this council, first of all you told us the civilian-military

23 council had 11 members; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. The president of the civilian-military council was

Page 17396

1 Mr. Savo Popovic; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. The other members of the civilian-military council, each member,

4 had a task, a function, within that council; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now I'd like to ask you in relation to Mr. Mihajlo Milosevic, he

7 was an assistant to Mr. Savo Popovic for the farm?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Mr. Jovanovic, he was assistant for agriculture; is that correct?

10 A. Yes, yes.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, the answer are being placed

12 fairly and squarely in the witness's mouth. This is more

13 cross-examination rather than re-examination. He's being provided the

14 answers in the question.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Lazarevic.

16 MR. LAZAREVIC: All right. I'll rephrase that.

17 Q. [Interpretation] Who was the assistant of Mr. Savo Popovic for the

18 economy?

19 A. I'm sorry, I didn't hear the question.

20 Q. Who was the assistant of the president of the civilian-military

21 council, Mr. Savo Popovic, for the economy?

22 A. I think it was Jovanovic.

23 Q. I'm sorry, what I meant was economy, not agriculture.

24 A. For the economy was Mihajlo Milosevic.

25 Q. And can you just tell me one other thing in relation to this? Who

Page 17397

1 was the assistant for security?

2 A. There was no function like this, as far as I know. I don't know

3 that.

4 Q. You were asked by the Prosecutor in relation to the policemen, and

5 those of you who were with Mr. Mirko Pavic, six of you, five of you and

6 including yourself, those of you who have come to Odzak, and were in Odzak

7 for a while in the police, as you've already explained. Have you -- all

8 of you become commissioners of the civilian-military council in Odzak?

9 A. No, just me. As it happened, just me.

10 MR. LAZAREVIC: Will Your Honours bear with me for one second?


12 [Defence counsel confer].


14 Q. [Interpretation] You were asked by Mr. Pantelic in relation to

15 Rajko Dervenic, do you recall? So was Rajko Dervenic a member of the

16 civilian-military council?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And after that, did he go to Doboj?

19 A. I have explained it. I will repeat that.

20 Q. Please do, because I don't think it's very clear.

21 A. Before the war broke out, in April, Rajko, late Mr. -- I find it

22 very hard to talk about that -- I'm sorry. So Rajko went to Doboj, and I

23 also said that he worked in Doboj as the head of accountancy in SUP in

24 Doboj. After the liberation of Odzak by the Army of Republika Srpska,

25 Rajko occasionally came to Odzak. He would carry out the task as the

Page 17398

1 civilian-military council assigned him to, and the rest of the time he

2 returned to Doboj and continued to work, to do his work as employed in the

3 SUP, as the head of accountancy in Doboj, that's all.

4 Q. Thank you very much. You spoke about the situation that was found

5 in Odzak, and you replied to the Prosecutor questions saying that some

6 smaller part of things were destroyed but a lot of things were

7 kept -- were preserved. Do you recall that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, when you came to Odzak, do you recall what was the building

10 Hanka [phoen] looking like in the centre of Odzak, the post office, was

11 anything burned out?

12 A. What was it, burned?

13 Q. Was it burnt? Were they torched?

14 A. No, no. It was -- it was in good condition, perhaps the panes of

15 glass were broken but buildings, as buildings were fine and they

16 were -- it was possible to live in them.

17 Q. Thank you very much. During your stay in the territory of the

18 municipality of Odzak, did you perhaps visit the villages of Trnjak,

19 Dubica, Novi Grad?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What was the situation there like?

22 A. The situation was terrible there. It was terrible in a sense that

23 houses, stables, toilet, field toilets even, everything was burned, even

24 the auxiliary buildings, the outhouses were -- everything was destroyed,

25 torched during the HVO authority from April until 13, 14, 15 July, when

Page 17399

1 Odzak was liberated, everything was destroyed.

2 Q. Now, when you were telling us about the population, that the

3 population had left Odzak, and the Prosecutor asked you about your

4 position, and asked you questions about that, and your response was that

5 all the civilians had left Odzak except for those that you personally saw

6 in Odzak and you also mentioned some people in the villages that you knew

7 of. Do you recall that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Could you perhaps answer one other question? In Odzak, before the

10 war broke out, there were three sisters of Mr. Zaric who lived in Odzak,

11 not just one?

12 A. Yes. One was a doctor, the eldest one, one completed their higher

13 business school, and she was working, and no, that wasn't the eldest but

14 Jelena was working at the --

15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the witness's last

16 sentence.

17 A. All three of them lived in Odzak and worked in Odzak and they had

18 flats in Odzak.


20 Q. Did you find them when you came to Odzak?

21 A. No.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the last part of

23 the answer?

24 MR. LAZAREVIC: I have no further questions in re-examination.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. Can the witness repeat the last part of the

Page 17400

1 answer, please? The interpreters didn't catch it.

2 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Sir, the very last answer you gave did not enter into the

4 transcript when you were talking about -- I asked you whether you found

5 the three sisters when you came to Odzak, and can you please finish your

6 answer? You said no, but?

7 A. Sorry, can you please repeat the question now to me, the whole

8 question?

9 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, I'll go through.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Lazarevic even the earlier one, the earlier

11 answer about the careers of the sisters of Mr. Zaric, that was not

12 completed.

13 MR. LAZAREVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Sir, let's go very slowly. I'll repeat the question and wait and

15 you can answer after I finish the question. First of all, because your

16 entire answer was not entered into the transcript, can you please say what

17 did the three sisters of Mr. Zaric do in Odzak? Can do you it slowly?

18 A. Well, here it goes. Mara, the eldest sister, she worked at the

19 SDK service. Jelena, the middle sister, she worked as an administrative

20 assistant, as clerk, at the TO staff in Odzak. And the youngest sister

21 was a doctor, I don't know whether she was a GP or she as a specialist.

22 Q. Now, my very last question was: When you came to Odzak, did you

23 find them and their families there, and you said that you did not,

24 except -- and can you please answer?

25 A. Except Jelena, who was in Odzak. I found her in Odzak. And she

Page 17401

1 had come from Serbia, I think.

2 Q. Do you know what happened to their houses in Odzak?

3 A. First of all, Mara's and her husband's Nenad's house, it was a new

4 house, it was a completely torched, there were just walls that were left.

5 And Jelena, and the youngest sister, they had flats, and the flats had

6 suffered the same fate as all the other flats.

7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Gavric.

8 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes. Now I really don't have any other questions.

9 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well.

10 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Yes, Mr. Gavric, I just have two very short

11 questions for you.

12 Questioned by the Court:

13 JUDGE WILLIAMS: The first question is whether you heard from the

14 plumbers who came to Odzak, including perhaps the one nicknamed Dasa,

15 whether you heard from them about dismantling of radiators and other

16 central heating equipment and transportation of it from Odzak to

17 Bosanski Samac.

18 A. No, no. Really, no.

19 JUDGE WILLIAMS: And my second question also relates to your

20 conversations with the plumbers, again perhaps including the one nicknamed

21 Dasa, and I'm wondering whether you know whether any of them worked on a

22 house in the vicinity of Odzak, I believe owned by a film star or some

23 other type of media personality, and whether they went there and worked on

24 the swimming pool?

25 A. I don't know anything about that. I really don't know.

Page 17402

1 JUDGE WILLIAMS: Thank you very much.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you very much, Mr. Gavric, for giving

4 evidence. We are now finished. You may leave the courtroom.

5 MR. PANTELIC: And Your Honours, in the meantime I have one copy

6 of 92 bis statement. Maybe I can tender it into evidence.


8 MR. PANTELIC: They just forwarded me from the Registry during the

9 break.

10 [The witness withdrew]

11 MR. PANTELIC: It is the statement of Ms. Andric, Belka, and I

12 have B/C/S and English version, accordingly. And Mr. Usher is here, yes.

13 Three copies for the Trial Chamber and one for the Registry and one for

14 the Court officer to go to file. And also, Your Honour, I was informed

15 that in a day or two, I will collect the rest of the statements so --

16 JUDGE MUMBA: Very well.

17 MR. PANTELIC: I will submit them.

18 JUDGE MUMBA: Can we have the number, please?

19 THE REGISTRAR: The statement will be treated as document D171/1

20 ter ID and D171/1 ID.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Can we have the next witness, please?

22 [The witness entered court]

23 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, please make the solemn declaration.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

25 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 17403


2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Thank you. Please sit down.

4 Yes, the counsel? Mr. Pisarevic?

5 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

6 Examined by Mr. Pisarevic:

7 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Tutnjevic.

8 A. Good afternoon.

9 Q. We have already discussed technical matters, so that this can

10 function well, and I just want to warn you again that you always wait a

11 little while after I have asked you the question, and then answer the

12 question, because our purpose is that your whole testimony should be

13 properly recorded. If you have any problems, if you can't hear me, or if

14 you cannot understand something, please stop me and ask, and let me know

15 that something isn't working well. Have you understood this?

16 A. Yes, I have.

17 Q. Now, for the record, can you please tell us your name and surname?

18 A. My name is Teodor Tutnjevic.

19 Q. Do you have any other name, or as we say it, nickname?

20 A. People call me Toso.

21 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us your date of birth?

22 A. I was born on the 28th of April, 1937.

23 Q. Can you tell me your place of birth?

24 A. I was born in Tisini near Bosanski Samac.

25 Q. Is that in the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

Page 17404

1 A. Yes, it is in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

2 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell me where do you live now?

3 A. I live in Bosanski Samac, Cara Dusana Street [phoen] Number 50.

4 Q. Where did you complete your primary school?

5 A. In Samac.

6 Q. And on the secondary school?

7 A. Samac.

8 Q. Can you tell us about your educational background and what is your

9 occupation?

10 A. I have completed a vocational course for a car mechanic. That is

11 my occupation.

12 Q. And what work did you do throughout your career?

13 A. Because there was no good driving service in Samac, I started

14 working as a driver, and I have been working as a driver in Samac until I

15 retired.

16 Q. Did you serve in the JNA?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. When and where?

19 A. I served in the JNA from the 27th of July, 1958, until the 12th of

20 July, 1960. I served in Belgrade. I was a member of Tito's guard.

21 Q. Thank you. And after you have served your military service in

22 Yugoslav People's Army, did you have any kind of rank as a reserve CO or

23 NCO?

24 A. I left the army as a private. I have no rank.

25 Q. Can you please tell me, were you a member of the communist league

Page 17405

1 of Yugoslavia?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you tell me from when and until when were you a member of the

4 communist league?

5 A. I was a member of the communist league from the 29th of September,

6 1959, until it ceased to exist, until it stopped existing.

7 Q. Are you now a member of any political party in Republika Srpska,

8 that is in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

9 A. Yes, I am.

10 Q. Can you tell us which one?

11 A. The Socialist Party of Republika Srpska.

12 Q. Can you tell me, are you married?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What is your ethnicity?

15 A. I'm a Serb.

16 Q. Now we will talk about the life of citizens in the municipality of

17 Bosanski Samac and in the town of Bosanski Samac during the time period

18 from 1991 until the beginning of 1992. That is, more precisely, until the

19 17th of April, 1992.

20 Can you please tell me, when was it that you as a citizen of

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina and inhabitant of the town of Samac and municipality of

22 Samac, when did you notice that there was a disruption of interethnic

23 relations among the ethnicities that lived in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

24 municipality of Bosanski Samac, and in the town of Bosanski Samac itself?

25 A. The disruption of interethnic relations started immediately after

Page 17406

1 the elections in 1990. It was noticeable that interethnic relations had

2 been disrupted.

3 JUDGE MUMBA: Mr. Pisarevic, if I may say so, we've heard

4 sufficient evidence on the build up of tensions among ethnic groups, and

5 we have also heard sufficient evidence of those incidents, Valentino, and

6 the other one concerning members of the 4th Detachment. I don't think it's

7 necessary for to you repeat that. If you may move on, please?

8 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. It looks

9 as if it's time for a break now, though.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, we will have a break and continue at 1805.

11 --- Recess taken at 5.45 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 6.05 p.m.

13 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, we continue, Mr. Pisarevic.

14 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

15 Q. Mr. Tutnjevic, tell me, please, were you a member of the 4th

16 Detachment of the JNA, which was part of the 17th Tactical Group of the

17 JNA?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Briefly, please, tell us how you became a member of the 4th

20 Detachment.

21 A. One day I received a call-up from the Ministry of Defence and they

22 told me that I had been assigned as a military conscript to the 4th

23 Detachment and that's how I became a member.

24 Q. Did you report?

25 A. I reported to the command of the 4th Detachment at the Tekstilac.

Page 17407

1 Q. By Tekstilac, you mean the SIT building?

2 A. Yes, yes, the SIT building.

3 Q. When did you report there or rather when you reported, what sort

4 of assignment were you given in the 4th Detachment? Did you become --

5 A. I got an assignment. They told me I would be the commander of a

6 department -- of a squad, and they told -- I had ten soldiers in my squad.

7 Q. What was the company?

8 A. That was the 1st Company, the 4th squad, the 4th platoon.

9 Q. Did you go to any military drills as a member of the 4th

10 Detachment?

11 A. Yes, once.

12 Q. Where did this military drill take place?

13 A. Near Brcko. It's a shooting range, a military shooting range.

14 What was the name?

15 Q. Doesn't really matter, but was it Potocari by any chance?

16 A. Yes, Potocari.

17 Q. What did you do at that drill?

18 A. We signed for weapons, we learned how to use those weapons and we

19 got the proper equipment, and we did some target practice with real

20 bullets.

21 Q. Were you perhaps given uniforms?

22 A. Yes, I was.

23 Q. Tell us what sort of a uniform was that?

24 A. It was a JNA uniform, olive-drab.

25 Q. What sort of weapon did you sign for at that military drill?

Page 17408

1 A. An automatic rifle, and an RAP. RAP, that's the combat set, with

2 four sets, and the cleaning tools.

3 Q. Did you sign a receipt for that or anything?

4 A. Yes. I signed a receipt, and I got a certificate that I was

5 allowed to carry weapons.

6 Q. This military equipment, this rifle, the uniform, where did you

7 keep those?

8 A. I took the weapons and the uniform to my house and I kept them at

9 home.

10 MR. WEINER: Sorry to interrupt, Your Honour, could the witness

11 please define RAP? He said a combat set. Could he define that a little

12 better because I know when we look back at the transcript we won't

13 understand what that is.

14 JUDGE MUMBA: I'm sure Mr. Pisarevic will lead him to do that.

15 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] By all means, Your Honour.

16 Q. Mr. Tutnjevic, you used the expression, RAP. It's an

17 abbreviation, can you please explain what that entailed, what the

18 abbreviation means?

19 A. The abbreviation means combat set or rather war equipment. It's a

20 small bag with four magazines full of bullets for the automatic rifle and

21 there is a small can with oil in it and a length of wire that we have a

22 special name for, there is also a small brush for cleaning the rifle.

23 Q. As a member of the 4th Detachment, did you have to request

24 approval from the command of the 4th Detachment in case you wanted to

25 travel or be absent for a while?

Page 17409

1 A. Until what happened in Samac happened, I went about my work as

2 usual. I travel, I'd work at the company, I did not have to request any

3 documents from the 4th Detachment.

4 Q. Which means you did not have to apply for any permits or you did

5 not inform anyone?

6 A. No, I did not need to inform anyone, nor did I have to apply for

7 any permits because I needed none. I lived my life as usual.

8 Q. It means that in your life, in your work, nothing changed?

9 A. No, nothing at all.

10 Q. Because you were a member of the 4th Detachment, did you receive

11 any remuneration or salary for that?

12 A. No. I did not receive any kind of salary. I was on the pay list

13 in my company where I did my daily job, and that's where I got my salary

14 but I got no money whatsoever or remuneration or compensation from the 4th

15 Detachment.

16 Q. Do you perhaps know whether any member of the 4th Detachment got

17 any kind of salary or compensation for being a member of the 4th

18 Detachment?

19 A. No, I don't know that anyone got any compensation or salary for

20 that, because most of those people who were members were working in their

21 own companies.

22 Q. Which was your company? Can you tell us that, please?

23 A. I was gainfully employed at the customs office, the customs zone

24 company in Samac.

25 Q. Were there any meetings attended by members of the 4th Detachment?

Page 17410

1 Did you know anything about that?

2 A. I know that there were two meetings of the 4th Detachment. I

3 attended those meetings. I don't know if any other meetings were held but

4 I think not.

5 Q. Can you recall where the first meeting was held of the 4th

6 Detachment?

7 A. The first meeting of the 4th Detachment was held at the memorial

8 centre, the Mitar Trifunovic memorial centre.

9 Q. That's in the town of Bosanski Samac?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you remember who addressed the members of the 4th Detachment,

12 who spoke at the meeting, at the Mitar Trifunovic memorial centre?

13 A. The first speaker was Mr. Nikolic from Pelagicevo. I think he was

14 the commander of the 17th Tactical Group. I believe Mr. Jovo Savic spoke

15 too. Mr. Simo Zaric spoke. No, no, it wasn't Jovo Savic, it was

16 Radovan Antic, as commander of the 4th Detachment and Mr. Simo Zaric.

17 Q. What did they tell the members of the 4th Detachment that meeting?

18 What were the aims and tasks of the JNA and by virtue of the same fact

19 also the 4th Detachment?

20 A. Mr. Nikolic spoke about the situation in the JNA. He spoke about

21 the political and security aspects of the situation in general. He told

22 us that we should remain unified, that we should prevent war from spilling

23 over from Croatia into Bosnia and Herzegovina. He talked about preventing

24 interethnic strife. That's to the best of my recollection.

25 Q. Thank you. Can you please remember what Mr. Simo Zaric spoke

Page 17411

1 about?

2 A. Mr. Simo Zaric spoke roughly along the same lines except he

3 applied this to the municipal level. He wasn't talking about the whole of

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina or the JNA. He spoke about the municipality.

5 Q. The second meeting, where was it held?

6 A. It was held at the SIT building, the Tekstilac.

7 Q. Who spoke at that meeting?

8 A. Mr. Nikolic was not there. Mr. Radovan Antic spoke. Mr. Simo

9 Zaric spoke. And I'm not sure if there was anyone else who spoke.

10 Q. Please tell me, this concerns the 4th Detachment, what was the

11 composition, what was the makeup, the ethnic makeup of the 4th Detachment?

12 A. The 4th Detachment included Serbs, Croats, Muslims. There were

13 members of other ethnic minorities in it, Montenegrins, Turks, because

14 there are several Turkish families in the Samac area. That was the makeup

15 of the 4th Detachment.

16 Q. Thank you very much. We'll move on to events following the 16th

17 and the 17th of April, 1992. What do you know about events in the town of

18 Bosanski Samac between the 16th and the 17th of April, 1992, please? Tell

19 us what you saw then, what you experienced.

20 A. On the 16th, I went to work, as usual. I was travelling that day.

21 I took the director to the Chamber of Commerce in Doboj. He stayed at the

22 Chamber of Commerce for quite a while and we only drove back in the

23 evening. I drove him home and the usual way for me to do it was when I

24 returned home, when I spend the whole day away, I would take the -- I

25 would take the car late in the evening and drive straight to my house and

Page 17412

1 then I took the car and went to my house. I went to bed. I got up the

2 usual time the next day and I went to work. I came to where I worked, my

3 company. There was no janitor at the door, which did not strike me as

4 unusual because that was not the first time the janitor wasn't there.

5 Then I reached the admin building and the door had been broken down. I

6 entered the building and all the offices had been opened, drawers had been

7 taken out of desks and tables, and documents had obviously been tampered

8 with. I realised that something was happening or rather that something

9 had happened, the phone lines were torn out of the wall and thrown all

10 over the place, scattered. Then I went to see the director at his home.

11 I came there, I told him that I'd been to the company building and I told

12 him that it was chaos, and he said, "I know exactly what was happening in

13 Samac during the night. Go home and don't leave home."

14 Q. Very well. Thank you.

15 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, I believe that there was some

16 misinterpretation of the witness's words. Here it says, in the

17 transcript, page 77, line 11, that his managing director actually told

18 him, "I know exactly what was happening in Samac during the night. Go

19 home and don't leave home."

20 And this is not what the witness said.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. You can go over it.

22 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] By all means, Your Honour.

23 Q. The director, the manager, did he tell you that he knew exactly

24 what had happened or that he merely say that something happened?

25 A. He told me, Toso, I know something happened, go home and don't

Page 17413

1 leave home.

2 Q. Can we please locate where exactly is your company?

3 A. It's on the outskirts of Samac, close to the River Sava.

4 Q. [no interpretation]

5 A. [no interpretation]

6 Q. [no interpretation]

7 JUDGE WILLIAMS: We have no interpretation.

8 JUDGE MUMBA: Can you ask the question again?

9 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. We have some technical problems so I'll repeat the question. Can

11 you please tell us the location of your company?

12 A. My company, the customs zone, is on the outskirts of Samac close

13 to the River Sava, between the bridge on the River Sava and the port on

14 the River Sava.

15 Q. Very well. Thank you. So you came home and what happened after

16 that? Did anyone call you on the phone?

17 A. I came home and someone from the command or rather commander

18 Radovan Antic called me and he said that I should get my men together, my

19 unit, and that we should assemble outside the command building.

20 Q. What did you do after he had called you?

21 A. I assembled the unit, but not everyone came. Only six soldiers

22 came. And one young man told me, "Uncle Toso, I am scared," and I told

23 him, "Don't even leave home, just stay home." And then I went with those

24 six soldiers who came and we assembled outside the command building.

25 Q. What time was this when you reached the command building?

Page 17414

1 A. May have been around 9.00, I think.

2 Q. You arrived outside the command at 9.00. What did you find

3 outside the command and inside the command at the SIT building?

4 A. When I came there, there were perhaps 40 other people there. Some

5 were wearing uniform and some were not. We spent an hour there, waited

6 for more people to gather, and eventually there were about 60 people.

7 Commander Radovan Antic took us to the embankment on the right-hand river

8 bank of the Bosna River and he had us deployed there.

9 Q. When you said the embankment on the left -- right-hand side of the

10 Bosna River, you meant the protective embankment protecting the town of

11 Samac from being flooded?

12 A. Samac, as a town, is an area prone to flooding, so there is an

13 embankment running all around Samac protecting the town from the Sava and

14 Bosna rivers, so that was the protective embankment that I was referring

15 to but just next to the embankment there are private houses, family

16 houses.

17 Q. Very well, thank you. You and your squad, did you occupy one

18 section of the embankment? Did you deploy your people there? What did

19 you do?

20 A. I deployed the few soldiers that I had and I was there with them.

21 We occupied a stretch that was perhaps between 60 and 80 metres long.

22 Q. How long did you stay there?

23 A. We stayed until 6.00 the next morning, about 6.00 the next morning

24 but in the evening we had been given white armbands and we put them on,

25 those who were wearing uniforms, they put the white armbands on to their

Page 17415

1 left shoulder strap and those who were not wearing uniforms put them on

2 the left upper arm, and we were relieved by another shift at 6.00 in the

3 morning.

4 Q. 6.00 in the morning, the next morning, on the 18th?

5 A. Yes.

6 THE INTERPRETER: May the witness please be reminded not to talk

7 at the same time as counsel.

8 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] For the sake of the transcript,

9 can we just state, please, that the witness indicated the left shoulder,

10 as the place on the shoulder strap where the soldiers were wearing white

11 armbands and he also pointed to the left upper arm where people who were

12 not wearing uniforms put their white armbands?


14 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation].

15 Q. Why were you given these white armbands? Why were these

16 distributed to you?

17 A. It was a mark of recognition, distinction. This white armband, I

18 wore it on the aerial of my car also.

19 Q. So you went back home. What happened on that day, on the 18th of

20 April, 1992? Did you receive any calls from the command of the 4th

21 Detachment?

22 A. That morning, I came back home and I went straight to bed. I

23 slept until about half past 10.00, or thereabouts. I woke up between 9.00

24 and 10.00 in the morning and then my wife woke me up and she said that

25 someone had called me from the command to go there immediately and to

Page 17416

1 drive there, take the car. I got ready and I went straight to the

2 command. I drove straight to the command.

3 Q. Was that the same vehicle that was property of the customs zone

4 which you as the official driver were using?

5 A. Yes. The car is owned by the company, the customs office, and it

6 was a Chroma car, the make was Chroma. It was blue.

7 Q. Who did you meet at the command of the 4th Detachment then?

8 A. Mr. Radovan Antic was at the command of the 4th Detachment.

9 Mr. -- No, no, he wasn't. Radovan Antic was there. Jovo Savic and

10 Simo Zaric.

11 Q. What did the commander tell you then?

12 A. The commander told me that -- that the vehicle has been -- had

13 been commandeered and that the staff or rather the Ministry of Defence had

14 commandeered the vehicle and that the vehicle would be used, that it had

15 given to the command of the 4th Detachment and that it would be used for

16 their needs. As I was the driver, the person who drove the vehicle, they

17 told me that I would be the driver for the command.

18 I answered so what about my department? My squad? And they told

19 me to no longer worry about that, they told me from now on you would be at

20 the command.

21 Q. So who did you drive? Whose driver were you once you had become

22 the driver for the command of the 4th Detachment using this Chroma, blue,

23 commandeered vehicle?

24 A. I drove the commander, the deputy commander, most often Mr. Zaric

25 actually.

Page 17417

1 Q. Where did you drive Mr. Simo Zaric most of the time?

2 A. I drove him most to Pelagicevo, to SUP, to the line, and around

3 the town.

4 Q. You just said that you took Mr. Zaric to the SUP, to the police

5 station, in Samac. So can you tell us, when you brought Mr. Zaric to the

6 police station, did you go in with Mr. Zaric into the building of the

7 police station?

8 A. I did not enter the police station with Mr. Zaric but occasionally

9 I would enter it after him, alone.

10 Q. Did Mr. Zaric tell you why he's going to the police station, why

11 you're driving him to the police station?

12 A. He told me that he was going to the police in order to take

13 statements, and then he would then process these statements, compile them.

14 I don't know what he was doing. But in any case, at least what he told

15 me, he was interested in the gathering of weapons -- in the arming, how

16 the weapons were acquired, how they were shared out and so on.

17 Q. How long would Mr. Zaric normally stay at the police station?

18 A. That varied, from ten minutes to one and a half hours, two hours

19 maximum.

20 Q. And did you take Mr. Zaric to the police station on a daily basis?

21 A. No. I did not. Not on a daily basis. He did not go every day.

22 Q. Did you ever, together with Mr. Zaric, go into the police at night

23 in Bosanski Samac?

24 A. We were never in the SUP at night.

25 Q. Did you ever, or Mr. Zaric, see Mr. Sulejman Tihic in the police

Page 17418

1 station?

2 A. I have never seen him in the SUP.

3 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, that last question is confusing. Did

4 you ever or Mr. Zaric, see Sulejman Tihic. He can answer whether he saw

5 Zaric and Sulejman Tihic together, whether he saw Sulejman Tihic but I

6 think they are also asking whether Zaric saw Sulejman Tihic. It's just

7 not clear.

8 MR. LAZAREVIC: Yes, because it wasn't properly translated.

9 Mr. Pisarevic will rephrase this in a couple of questions.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, Mr. Pisarevic, you can go over that.

11 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Yes, Mr. Lazarevic just suggested this but we can clear this up.

13 Did you ever, and Mr. Zaric together, see in the police station

14 Mr. Sulejman Tihic?

15 A. No, we did not. Mr. Simo Zaric and myself were never in the SUP

16 together.

17 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Tihic in the police station?

18 A. I did not.

19 Q. Did Zaric tell you anything about what happened in the police

20 station when the statement was taken by Mr. Zaric from Mr. Sulejman Tihic?

21 A. On that day, when I took Mr. Zaric to the SUP, I stopped for a

22 while, parked the car in front of the SUP, and usually there would be a

23 person there and I would stay in front of the SUP. When Mr. Zaric left

24 the SUP [Realtime transcript read in error "shup"] building I went into

25 the car and he came in and he put his head in his hands and he said, "Oh,

Page 17419

1 my God, Toso, what shall I do?" That's how he put it. So I asked him

2 what happened. He said when I went to see Stiv [Realtime transcript read

3 in error "stiff"], somebody had called him to see Stiv and then somebody

4 had beaten Sulejman up.

5 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, for this transcript to make sense,

6 there are a few corrections in this answer. It's not what the witness

7 said but first here on the -- on page 83, line 23, it is SUP building, not

8 s-h-w-p, like it is here, and then on page 84, line 1, it was "Stiv,"

9 referring to Stevan Todorovic, not "stiff".

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. That will be corrected.

11 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. What did Mr. Zaric look like to you when he was telling you these

13 things?

14 A. He was upset. And one could tell by looking at him that he was

15 disappointed. He was upset, because he was shouting, he was speaking in a

16 raised tone of voice.

17 Q. Thank you. Are you aware of the fact that in the TO building, a

18 murder was committed of a person, and how did you find out about that

19 fact?

20 A. Also one day, I took -- I drove Mr. Zaric to the SUP, and I was

21 there in front of the SUP, and when Zaric left the SUP after a while, I

22 think he stayed perhaps an hour, just over an hour. He left, he got into

23 the car, and then Mr. Zaric told me, "Imagine, Toso, that fool killed a

24 man." So I said, "Which fool?" And he said Lugar. And I said, "Who did

25 he kill?" And he said Dikan, and I never thought that I had heard a shot

Page 17420

1 because shots were a normal occurrence, that's how I found out that from

2 him.

3 Q. Thank you. When did you find out that Mr. Zaric, together with

4 Mr. Nikolic, Captain Petrovic, Makso Simeunovic managed to transfer the

5 imprisoned Muslims and Croats from the TO staff to the garrison in Brcko?

6 A. One morning, when I came to the command, Zaric told me, "Toso, we

7 are going to Brcko." Considering that he told me many things, then I

8 said, "what are we going to do in Brcko?" So we went into the car and we

9 set off, and then he told me, "last night I moved those from the TO to the

10 Brcko at the garrison, at the barracks in Brcko. Those people who were

11 imprisoned." So I said, "why did you do that?" So he said, so that they

12 would get away from being mistreated, beaten up, and there was shelling

13 that had increased and the roof structure was poor and this was for their

14 own safety. So that is when I -- that was when I took him to Brcko, drove

15 him [Realtime transcript read in error "limb"] to Brcko, so that is when I

16 found out that these from the TO had been transferred to Brcko.

17 MR. LAZAREVIC: Can we just have one small clarification in

18 transcript on page 85, line 12, it says, "that was when I took him to much

19 Brcko, drove limb to Brcko." So it doesn't make much sense.

20 JUDGE MUMBA: I think those are spelling mistakes. I'm sure when

21 they have the audio, they will correct it, or you can correct it,

22 Mr. Pisarevic.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I heard the witness say

24 that he took him to Brcko, drove him to Brcko.

25 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. So these are just spelling mistakes.

Page 17421

1 MR. DI FAZIO: It's pretty obvious what the mistake is.

2 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, so we with proceed, Mr. Pisarevic.

3 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 Q. So when you got to Brcko, where did you take him?

5 A. When we arrived in Brcko we went to the garrison. Mr. Zaric went

6 into the premises of the garrison and I stayed with the duty officer at

7 the Brcko garrison.

8 Q. How long did Mr. Zaric stay there?

9 A. He stayed there perhaps a half an hour, three-quarters of an hour.

10 Q. And then you went back to Samac?

11 A. And we went back to Samac again.

12 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, now I'd like to ask

13 the witness a question regarding an event involving a protected witness so

14 I would ask if we can go into private session, please.

15 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes, can we go into private session?

16 [Private session]

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 17422












12 Page 17422 redacted private session














Page 17423












12 Page 17423 redacted private session














Page 17424

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 [Open session]

4 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open.

5 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Here you mentioned that you often took Mr. Zaric to the command of

7 the 17th Tactical Group in Pelagicevo. What did you find out about the

8 crime that happened in Crkvina and how did you find out about that? Can

9 you tell us just, please, slow down, so that the interpreters can follow

10 you.

11 A. One evening, we went to Pelagicevo, to the command. I drove

12 Simo Zaric there. We stayed there for a while, for a longer time, and on

13 the way back from Pelagicevo, we arrived at the intersection at the

14 village of Crkvina, which is about five kilometres distance from Samac.

15 Approaching the intersection, I saw a few vehicles and I slowed down my

16 driving. At that moment, Sasa Maslic approached me. He recognised our

17 vehicle so I opened the window and he said, "Oh, Uncle Simo, you know what

18 happened last night here?" So Simo said, "what?" And then he answered,

19 "Lugar came and killed 15 or 16 people." I think he said 15. I'm not

20 sure about the number. About the figure.

21 And Simo again said, "what?" And the answer was, "he killed 15

22 people." "Where did he kill them?" He said, "he killed them here in

23 Crkvina in the warehouse." "Does anyone know about this?" And he said "I

24 don't know. But sometime ago, Mr. Blagoje Simic drove -- went by," and

25 then Simo told me, "come on, let's go to the command of the 2nd battalion,

Page 17425

1 of the 2nd Detachment." That was in Crkvina, in a hamlet. It's a hamlet

2 called Starcevici. So I drove Mr. Zaric there and he went to that command

3 and I stayed outside. He did not stay long. He went out and he went into

4 the car and he said to drive him home. And he told me that Blagoje Simic

5 was so astonished, so embittered when I told him that, and then I took

6 Mr. Zaric to the command --

7 Q. Just a moment. How far is the command from that intersection?

8 A. From that intersection, the command is about 1 kilometre away.

9 Q. Who told you that Blagoje Simic was shocked and astonished by that

10 event?

11 A. That was what Mr. Zaric told me when he got into the car.

12 Q. And you came to the command of the 4th Detachment?

13 A. Yes, we came to the command of the 4th Detachment. He then called

14 Mr. Nikolic in Pelagicevo.

15 Q. Who did you find at the command of the 4th Detachment?

16 A. In the command of the 4th Detachment, there was Mr. Jovo Savic who

17 was there.

18 Q. Was Mr. Jovo Savic then the commander of the 4th Detachment?

19 A. First he was Radovan who was the commander, and then it was Jovo.

20 Yes. He was the commander because Radovan was not a commander for a very

21 long time.

22 Q. Very well. And did Simo Zaric tell Jovo Savic and other people

23 who were at the command what had happened in Crkvina?

24 A. Apart from Mr. Savic, there were a few other people who were there

25 in the command, there was Mr. Mihajlo Tovirac [phoen] also known as Pile

Page 17426

1 who was there. And then there was a man nicknamed Buco, I don't know his

2 name, and there were a few other men and Simo told this, he said what had

3 happened.

4 Q. Very well. And then what did he do then?

5 A. He called Pelagicevo, I think he spoke to Mr. Nikolic, and then I

6 took him home, and I went home as well. And told me that the next day we

7 would be going to Pelagicevo.

8 Q. This conversation with the command in Pelagicevo, did Simo Zaric

9 then talk to one person or did he talk to two people? Can you perhaps

10 remember?

11 A. I recall that he spoke -- I think it was Makso, it was a name

12 called Makso that Simo spoke to him, I think. Simo called him and spoke

13 to him. After that conversation there was Mr. Nikolic who called and I

14 know that he was the commander because Simo called him Mr. Nikolic.

15 Q. Was this line interrupted or was this a different -- was it the

16 continuous conversation and just people who were coming on to the line?

17 A. I don't understand the question.

18 Q. You said that Makso called; is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did then Makso pass on to the receiver to someone else and then

21 the conversation continued or did Simo call twice?

22 A. No. First Simo spoke to Makso and then Makso gave either the

23 microphone or the receiver, I don't know what, to Mr. Nikolic.

24 Q. Very well. So this was one conversation with two people on the

25 other side?

Page 17427

1 A. Yes, that's correct.

2 Q. Very well. So you went home and what did Zaric tell you before

3 you parted?

4 A. He -- he said that we would be going to Pelagicevo the next day.

5 Q. And did you go and when did you go the next day?

6 A. The next day, I think it was about 7.00 in the morning, 7

7 something, I took him to Pelagicevo and he went to the command, I was

8 outside. When he left, when he went out, he said that he would have to go

9 to Belgrade the next day. I [as interpreted] would have to go to Belgrade

10 to somebody called Jugo Maksimovic that he would have to go see him.

11 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, we have one correction in the

12 transcript on page 92, line 7, the witness didn't say I would have to go

13 to Belgrade. But Simo actually had to go to Belgrade. He.

14 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation].

15 Q. Did Mr. Simo Zaric tell you that he would have to go to Belgrade?

16 A. Yes. He said that he would have to go to Belgrade the next day.

17 Q. You did not drive Mr. Simo Zaric to Belgrade?

18 A. No, I did not.

19 Q. Now we will go on to the events at the centre for reporting of the

20 municipality of Samac. The events that took place at the end of May in

21 1992. What do you know and did you go and drive Mr. Simo Zaric to the

22 centre for reporting of the municipality of Bosanski Samac?

23 A. I drove Mr. Zaric twice to the centre for reporting.

24 Q. What was the first time?

25 MR. LAZAREVIC: Your Honours, because we are talking now about one

Page 17428

1 place that was already mentioned couple of times, and we used to call it

2 communication centre.


4 MR. LAZAREVIC: Not centre for reporting, in order to avoid any

5 confusion and misunderstanding maybe we should refer to it in the same way

6 we usually did.

7 JUDGE MUMBA: The communication centre, yes.

8 MR. PISAREVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. I think it's

9 now time to stop for today.

10 JUDGE MUMBA: Yes. We will adjourn and continue our proceedings

11 tomorrow in the morning.

12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

13 7.00 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,

14 the 26th day of March, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.