Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1

1 Tuesday, 17th February 1998


3 (2.30 pm)

4 JUDGE JORDA: We will now start the

5 hearing. Registrar, what is the case number, before we

6 have the accused brought in, what is the accused

7 number?

8 THE REGISTRAR: This is the case the

9 Prosecutor of the Tribunal against Slobodan Miljkovic,

10 also known as Lugar, Blagoje Simic, Milan Simic,

11 Miroslav Tadic, also known as Miro Brko, Stevan

12 Todorovic, also known as Stiv, also known as Stevo,

13 also known as Monstrum, and Simo Zaric also known as

14 Solaja.

15 JUDGE JORDA: And more specifically in this

16 case?

17 THE REGISTRAR: For today, Simic and Tadic,

18 also known as Miro Brko.

19 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. Can we have

20 Mr Simic and Mr Tadic brought in, please?

21 (The accused entered court)

22 JUDGE JORDA: Please give headsets to each of

23 the accused, and while we are doing that I would like

24 to ask who represents the Office of the Prosecutor.

25 MS PATERSON: Yes, Mr President, I am Nancy

Page 2

1 Paterson, I am here for the Prosecution and I will have

2 my colleague introduce himself.

3 MR TOCHILOVSKY: My name is Mr Tochilovsky.

4 JUDGE JORDA: Please use your microphone.

5 You have the headset but you did not have your

6 microphone on. Would you please repeat your name?

7 MR TOCHILOVSKY: My name is Tochilovsky.

8 JUDGE JORDA: And for the Defence? I see

9 Mr Pantelic.

10 MR PANTELIC: Good afternoon, your Honour.

11 Here we are again, I hope that I am not boring you.

12 I am Igor Pantelic --

13 JUDGE JORDA: Well, you know, lawyers never

14 really bother me.

15 MR PANTELIC: Appearances here, are to appear

16 on behalf of Mr Milan Simic. I would say just

17 provisionally, because according to the position of the

18 Registry, and the Rules, relevant Rules, it is possible

19 only to be a lead counsel in one case, so this is just

20 to help these formalities and after this initial

21 appearance, Mr Milan Simic will make a choice about his

22 Defence team who will act during the trial.

23 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. And Mr Tadic is

24 being defended by whom? What is your name, please?

25 MR PISAREVIC: Your Honour, my name is

Page 3

1 Borislav Pisarevic, attorney from Samac and member of

2 the Bar Association of Republika Srpska, and in this

3 case I represent Mr Miroslav Tadic. Thank you.

4 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. Before we begin the

5 initial appearance hearing, I would like both of the

6 accused to introduce themselves. One of course will

7 remain seated. I would like each of them to state his

8 name, his family name, his first name, his date and

9 place of birth, his -- and his last residence, perhaps

10 the one who is not handicapped who could rise and

11 answer the question, please.

12 You are...

13 Please let us have one of the guards turn the

14 microphone on.

15 You are...

16 MR TADIC: My name is Miroslav Tadic, also

17 known as Brko, as is mentioned in the indictment.

18 I was born on 12 May 1937, in Novi Grad, in the Odzak

19 municipality, Republika Srpska.

20 JUDGE JORDA: I would also like you to tell

21 us what your name, domicile is and what your profession

22 is.

23 MR TADIC: I am a retired professor,

24 teacher.

25 JUDGE JORDA: Professor of what? What was

Page 4

1 your field?

2 MR TADIC: Machine engineering.

3 The last residence is in Samac, The Car Dusan

4 Street, number 38.

5 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. You may be seated

6 for the time being.

7 I will now turn --

8 MR TADIC: Thank you, too.

9 JUDGE JORDA: -- to Mr Milan Simic, who will

10 remain seated. In the same manner as your co-accused,

11 please state your family name, your first name, the

12 date and location of your birth, your profession and

13 your last domicile, Mr Simic.

14 MR SIMIC: My name is Milan Simic, born on

15 9th August 1960 in Sarajevo. I am economist by

16 profession, and last residence is in Samac in Republika

17 Srpska.

18 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. We will now

19 continue with the initial appearance hearing, and

20 according to our rules, we must ask each of you,

21 Mr Tadic and Mr Simic, to state who the lawyers are

22 that you have chosen.

23 Mr Tadic, do you confirm that you chose

24 Mr Pisarevic. Is that correct?

25 MR TADIC: Yes. I have selected Mr Borislav

Page 5

1 Pisarevic from Samac for counsel in this case.

2 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, and Mr Simic, did

3 you choose Mr Pantelic. Is that correct?

4 MR SIMIC: Yes, that is right.

5 JUDGE JORDA: I now am speaking to the

6 public gallery as well. The purpose of this hearing is

7 to verify before the judges the fact that the

8 indictment was served on the accused, according to the

9 conditions which give rise to this indictment which was

10 then confirmed by a judge. We are following the

11 governing texts of the Tribunal, that is the Statute of

12 the Tribunal which was set up in 1993, and it says that

13 the Trial Chamber shall read the indictment to be sure

14 that the rights of the accused are respected and to be

15 sure that the accused, or that the accused in the

16 plural have understood the indictment and are then

17 given the opportunity to plead guilty or not guilty.

18 I would also like to point out in order to

19 make sure that everything is clear and that this is

20 a public hearing, that we are now two judges, not

21 three, as is ordinarily the case, but the Rules do

22 provide that the presiding -- the president of the

23 Tribunal can make an exception, if one of the judges is

24 unable to be present, which was the case today.

25 That is Rule 15 of the Rules of Procedure and

Page 6

1 Evidence.

2 For the initial appearance we are governed by

3 Rule 62, the judges must satisfy themselves that the

4 right of each of the accused to counsel is respected,

5 which we have just done, and then we will read or have

6 the indictment read to the accused in a language he

7 speaks and understands, and satisfies itself that the

8 accused understands the indictment, after which we call

9 upon the accused to enter a plea of guilty or not

10 guilty on each count.

11 I would now turn to Mr Pisarevic and

12 Mr Pantelic and state, this indictment with which you

13 are familiar, you did give it to your counsel, did you

14 not, before we -- I would like to be sure of this

15 before we read it.

16 MR PANTELIC: We have discussed all these

17 issues since 1996 with our clients and as well as these

18 few days when they are hearing the case, so everything

19 is clear for them.

20 JUDGE JORDA: Mr Pisarevic?

21 MR PISAREVIC: Mr President, I believe what

22 Mr Pantelic has said, I can confirm since the

23 indictment has been issued we have been discussing it

24 with our clients and they are informed and they know

25 what it is about.

Page 7

1 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you very much. I would

2 now ask the Registrar to read the indictment. As you

3 have seen, this indictment at the time that it was

4 confirmed by one of our colleagues, at the time it was

5 Judge Vohrah, and I believe that that was on 21st July

6 1995, the indictment included six accused. Two are

7 present today. I will therefore ask the Registrar to

8 read in public this indictment, but to read everything

9 that involves the general allegations and then the

10 specific parts which deal with each of the two accused

11 here today.

12 Mr Registrar, you may begin to read the

13 indictment which was issued by the International

14 Criminal Tribunal against Milan Simic and Miroslav

15 Tadic, also known as Miro Brko.

16 THE REGISTRAR: The Prosecutor of the

17 Tribunal against Slobodan Miljkovic, also known as

18 Lugar, Blagoje Simic, Milan Simic, Miroslav Tadic, also

19 known as Miro Brko, Stevan Todorovic, also known as

20 Stiv, also known as Stevo, also known as Monstrum, Simo

21 Zaric, also known as Solaja.

22 Indictment. Richard J Goldstone, Prosecutor

23 of the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former

24 Yugoslavia, pursuant to his authority under Article 18

25 of the Statute of the International Criminal Tribunal

Page 8

1 for the Former Yugoslavia (Tribunal Statute), charges:

2 1) In 1991, almost 17,000 Bosnian Croats and

3 Muslims, of a total population of about 33,000, lived

4 in the municipality of Bosanski Samac in the Republic

5 of Bosnia and Herzegovina. By May 1995, fewer than 300

6 of the Bosnian Croat and Muslim residents remained.

7 2) On 17 April 1992, Serb military forces

8 from Bosnia and elsewhere in the Former Yugoslavia

9 seized control of the town of Bosanski Samac.

10 3) Because of its location at the

11 north-western edge of the, "Posavina corridor", control

12 of Bosanski Samac was important to Serb efforts to

13 create a Serb-controlled land bridge between Serbia and

14 the Krajina Serbs in Croatia and western Bosnia and

15 Herzegovina.

16 4) After seizing control in the military

17 take-over, Serb authorities undertook a campaign of

18 terror designed to force most Bosnian Croat and Muslim

19 residents to leave the area.

20 5) Beginning on 17 April 1992, Serb military

21 and political authorities coordinated and carried out

22 the following actions as part of that campaign of

23 terror:

24 (a) arrested and detained most of the Bosnian

25 Croat and Muslim men in the municipality, particularly

Page 9

1 the political, economic, professional, academic and

2 civic leaders;

3 (b) established and operated, primarily under

4 the authority of the Serb police, detention camps where

5 prisoners were killed, beaten, tortured, sexually

6 assaulted and otherwise mistreated;

7 (c) permitted units of paramilitary soldiers

8 from Serbia to enter the detention camps to kill and

9 beat the prisoners;

10 (d) forced Bosnian Croat and Muslim residents

11 to leave their homes, and permitted Serb residents to

12 move into the vacated homes;

13 (e) expelled, through force or intimidation,

14 Bosnian Croat and Muslim residents of the municipality

15 to other countries and other parts of Bosnia and

16 Herzegovina;

17 (f) required Bosnian Croat and Muslim men,

18 women and children to work on forced labour projects,

19 such as digging trenches and other work at military

20 confrontation lines;

21 (g) robbed Bosnian Croat and Muslim residents

22 of their cars, cash and valuables, and looted their

23 homes;

24 (h) looted and dismantled equipment and

25 inventories from Bosnian Croat and Muslim businesses;

Page 10

1 (i) issued orders prohibiting Bosnian Croats

2 and Muslims from congregating in public and requiring

3 Bosnian Croats and Muslims to wear white arm bands to

4 identify themselves as non-Serbs;

5 (j) confiscated the bank accounts of many

6 Bosnian Croats and Muslims and blocked the funds in

7 those accounts;

8 (k) mobilised Bosnian Croat and Muslim men

9 into the Bosnian Serb Army and sent them to the front

10 lines;

11 (l) created such an atmosphere of fear and

12 oppression among the non-Serb population that most

13 Bosnian Croat and Muslim residents fled the area.

14 The accused:

15 6. Slobodan Miljkovic, also known as Lugar,

16 born in 1953, from Kragujevac, Serbia, was the deputy

17 commander of the 2nd Posavina Brigade, also known as,

18 "the grey Wolves", a paramilitary unit from Serbia.

19 7. Blagoje Simic, born in 1960, is a medical

20 physician from Kruskovo Polje, Bosanski Samac

21 municipality who is the president of the Serbian

22 Democratic Party (SDS) in Bosanski Samac and was

23 Vice-Chairman of the town assembly from 1919 through 17

24 April 1992. From 4 November 1991 through at least 30

25 November 1992, Blagoje Simic was the deputy of the

Page 11

1 assembly of the self-declared, "Serb Autonomous Region

2 of Northern Bosnia", later called, "the Serb Autonomous

3 Province of Semberija and Majevica", of the, "Serb

4 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina". In March 1992,

5 Blagoje Simic declared himself head of the, "Serb

6 Municipality Bosanski Samac". After the military

7 take-over of Bosanski Samac on 17 April 1992, Blagoje

8 Simic became chairman of the Bosanski Samac Assembly,

9 chairman of the local SDS Crisis Staff, and President

10 of the Wartime Presidency.

11 8. Milan Simic, born in 1958 --

12 JUDGE JORDA: Perhaps there is an error

13 here. He stated that he was born in 1960. Yes.

14 Continue, please.


16 8. Milan Simic, born in 1960, a cousin of

17 Blagoje Simic, trained as an economist, was a member of

18 the Fourth Detachment and after 17 April 1992 became

19 Chairman of the Executive Board of the Bosanski Samac

20 Assembly.

21 9. Miroslav Tadic, also known as Miro Brko,

22 born in 1937, from Odzak municipality, formerly

23 a teacher, ran the cafe, "AS", in Bosanski Samac and

24 served as Simo Zaric's deputy in connection with the

25 Fourth Detachment. After 17 April 1992, Miroslav Tadic

Page 12

1 became Chairman of the Bosanski Samac, "Exchange

2 Commission".

3 10. Stevan Todorovic, also known as Stiv,

4 Stevo or Monstrum, born in 1957, from Donja Slatina,

5 Bosanski Samac municipality, was appointed chief of

6 police for Bosanski Samac after 17 April 1992 military

7 take-over. Before then, Stevan Todorovic was an

8 executive in a bamboo furniture factory.

9 11. Simo Zaric, also known as Solaja, born

10 25 July 1948 from Donja Dubica in Odzak municipality,

11 was a former police chief of Bosanski Samac and State

12 Security Service (SDB) agent who, from 1 January 1992

13 through at least 31 August 1992, organised and

14 supervised a Serb Territorial Defence unit known at

15 first as the Fourth Detachment and later renamed the

16 5th Battalion of the 2nd Posavina Brigade.

17 General allegations:

18 12. Unless otherwise set forth below, all

19 acts and omissions alleged in this indictment took

20 place between about 17 April and 20 November 1992 in

21 Bosanski Samac municipality in the Republic of Bosnia

22 and Herzegovina in the territory of the Former

23 Yugoslavia.

24 13. At all times relevant to this

25 indictment, a state of armed conflict and partial

Page 13

1 occupation existed in the Republic of Bosnia and

2 Herzegovina.

3 14. At all times relevant to this

4 indictment, all persons described in this indictment as

5 victims were protected by the Geneva Conventions of

6 1949.

7 15. At all times relevant to this

8 indictment, all of the accused in this indictment were

9 required to abide by the laws and customs governing the

10 conduct of war, including the Geneva Conventions of

11 1949.

12 16. In each paragraph of this indictment

13 charging torture, the acts were committed by, or at the

14 instigation of, or with the consent or acquiescence of,

15 an official or person acting in an official capacity,

16 and for one or more of the following purposes: to

17 obtain information or a confession from the victim or

18 a third person; to punish the victim for an act the

19 victim or a third person committed or was suspected of

20 having committed; to intimidate or coerce the victim or

21 a third person; and/or for any reason based upon

22 discrimination of any kind.

23 17. All acts and omissions charged as crimes

24 against humanity were part of a widespread, systematic,

25 or large-scale attack against the Croat and Muslim

Page 14

1 residents of the municipality of Bosanski Samac.

2 18. Each of the accused is individually

3 responsible for the crimes alleged against him in this

4 indictment, pursuant to Article 7(1) of the Tribunal

5 Statute. Individual criminal liability includes

6 committing, planning, initiating, ordering or aiding

7 and abetting in the planning, preparation or execution

8 of any crime referred to in Articles 2 to 5 of the

9 Tribunal Statute.

10 19. Paragraphs 12 through 18 are re-alleged

11 and incorporated into each of the charges set forth

12 below.

13 Charges. Counts 1 and 2. Deportation and

14 transfer.

15 20. From about 17 April 1992 through at

16 least 4 September 1992, Simo Zaric and Miroslav Tadic

17 participated in the planning of and preparation for,

18 the unlawful deportation and forcible transfer of

19 hundreds of Bosnian Croat and Muslim residents,

20 including women, children and the elderly, from their

21 homes in the Bosanski Samac municipality to other

22 countries or to other parts of the Republic of Bosnia

23 and Herzegovina not controlled by Serb forces. By

24 these actions Simo Zaric and Miroslav Tadic planned,

25 instigated, ordered or committed:

Page 15

1 Count 1: a grave breach of the Geneva

2 Conventions of 1949 (hereafter grave breach) recognised

3 by Article 2(g) (unlawful deportation or transfer) of

4 the Tribunal Statute;

5 Count 2: a crime against humanity recognised

6 by Article 5(d) (deportation) of the Tribunal Statute.

7 Counts 24 through 26. Beating of Mohammed

8 Bicic.

9 27. On an occasion some time between about

10 1 June and 30 June 1992, in a hallway of the gymnasium

11 of the Bosanski Samac primary school, Milan Simic and

12 several others kicked Muhamed Bicic and beat him

13 repeatedly with iron bars and chair legs. By these

14 actions, Milan Simic committed or otherwise aided and

15 abetted:

16 Count 24: a grave breach recognised by

17 Article 2(c) (wilfully causing great suffering) of the

18 Tribunal Statute;

19 Count 25: a violation of the laws or customs

20 of war recognised by Article 3 of the Tribunal Statute

21 and Article 3(1)(a) (cruel treatment) of the Geneva

22 Conventions;

23 Count 26: a crime against humanity recognised

24 by Article 5(i) (inhumane acts) of the Tribunal

25 Statute.

Page 16

1 Signed Richard J Goldstone, Prosecutor and...

2 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. I will now turn to

3 the accused, that is Mr Miroslav Tadic. First of all,

4 did you understand the intent and sense of this

5 indictment as it was read to you in your language? Did

6 you understand it? Will you answer me, please? You

7 heard it, you understood it?

8 MR TADIC: Yes, I have heard the indictment.

9 I did not fully understand it...

10 JUDGE JORDA: You did not understand

11 everything. What is it that you did not understand?

12 MR TADIC: I do not know what Mr Lugar doing

13 there. I barely know this man.

14 JUDGE JORDA: Yes. That will be part of

15 your defence, once the trial begins. For the time

16 being, we are simply referring to charges that were

17 brought against you, and on purpose, I ask the

18 Registrar to read only the counts which concern you

19 specifically, but as regards those which do concern

20 you, did you first of all understand them in your own

21 language? Did the interpretation allow you to

22 understand what you are being accused of?

23 MR TADIC: Yes, I did.

24 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. Thank you. You

25 may be seated.

Page 17

1 Mr Simic, I ask you the same question; did

2 you hear the indictment? Did you understand it in your

3 own native language?

4 MR SIMIC: Yes.

5 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. I am now going to

6 ask you to plead guilty or not guilty to the various

7 counts which have been brought against you by the

8 Office of the Prosecutor.

9 Mr Tadic, I will ask you to rise one more

10 time, and ask the Registrar to mention once again the

11 two charges against you, and after each of them, simply

12 state whether you have chosen, in agreement with your

13 counsel, to plead guilty or to the contrary, to plead

14 not guilty as, since you know that this would have

15 different repercussions on the trial, but I wanted to

16 point these differences out to you and if you do not

17 understand them I will explain them to you.

18 Mr Registrar, will you please read the counts

19 against Mr Miroslav Tadic? Are you having a microphone?

20 But you have got a very powerful voice, I am sure that

21 we can hear you. Are things okay? Fine. Please rise,

22 and Mr Tadic, please rise because these are charges

23 against you and I want you to listen carefully.

24 Now, Mr Registrar, this is count number 1.

25 THE REGISTRAR: A great breach of the Geneva

Page 18

1 Convention 1949, (hereafter grave breach) recognised by

2 Article 2(g) (unlawful deportation or transfer) of the

3 Tribunal Statute.

4 JUDGE JORDA: Unlawful deportation or

5 transfer of the Tribunal Statute.

6 Mr Miroslav Tadic, do you plead guilty or not

7 guilty?

8 MR TADIC: I am not guilty on either of the

9 counts.

10 JUDGE JORDA: Registrar, please note the

11 fact that the accused has pleaded not guilty, and now

12 once again for count 2.

13 THE REGISTRAR: A crime against humanity

14 recognised by Article 5(d) (deportation) of the

15 Tribunal Statute.

16 JUDGE JORDA: Mr Tadic, do you plead guilty

17 or not guilty?

18 MR TADIC: Not guilty.

19 JUDGE JORDA: Mr Tadic may be seated and

20 Registrar, you will note that the accused has pleaded

21 not guilty.

22 Mr Simic, the Prosecutor has charged you with

23 three counts, 24, 25 and 26. We will do the same

24 thing. Would you please state count number 24?

25 THE REGISTRAR: Count number 24, a grave

Page 19

1 breach recognised by Article 2(c) (wilfully causing

2 great suffering) of the Tribunal Statute.

3 JUDGE JORDA: Mr Simic, do you plead guilty

4 or not guilty?

5 MR SIMIC: Not guilty.

6 JUDGE JORDA: A plea of not guilty to count

7 24. Count number 25?

8 THE REGISTRAR: Count 25, a violation of the

9 laws or customs of war recognised by Article 3 of the

10 Tribunal Statute and Article 3(1)(a) (cruel treatment)

11 of the Geneva Conventions.

12 JUDGE JORDA: Do you plead guilty or not

13 guilty, Mr Simic?

14 MR SIMIC: Not guilty.

15 JUDGE JORDA: When you say that you are not

16 guilty, I hope you understand that I am interpreting it

17 a certain way. That is, you are choosing in this trial

18 to adopt the attitude of a person who has pleaded not

19 guilty. We do agree with that, do we not? Do we agree?

20 MR SIMIC: Yes, yes.

21 JUDGE JORDA: Does your counsel agree as

22 well, Mr Pantelic?

23 MR PANTELIC: Your Honour, as usual.

24 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. Well, not always,

25 I am sure.

Page 20

1 Count 26.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Count 26, a crime against

3 humanity recognised by Article 5(i) (inhumane acts) of

4 the Tribunal Statute.

5 JUDGE JORDA: Mr Simic, do you plead guilty

6 or not guilty?

7 MR SIMIC: Not guilty.

8 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. The transcript

9 will note that the accused have pleaded not guilty, and

10 that this means that in the trial there must be

11 procedures which follow those of a not guilty plea.

12 This is so that everything is clear.

13 I now turn to the Prosecutor to remind her,

14 as we do for each of the initial appearances, to remind

15 her of obligations to disclose all documents which are

16 attached to the indictment at the time of its

17 confirmation, I suppose in support of the indictment

18 which was confirmed by our colleague Judge Vohrah.

19 There must have been a series of attachments, as well

20 as prior statements of the accused, that is -- or

21 witnesses.

22 Are you in a position to depose at this

23 moment? I would like to recall that the Rules have been

24 modified and at the time period set, the starting point

25 of 60 days for the preliminary motions has changed

Page 21

1 somewhat. Turning to the Prosecutor...

2 MS PATERSON: Yes, Mr President, we are aware

3 of our obligation to turn over the confirmation

4 material. I do have the material with me in court

5 today. These two envelopes contain the material for

6 the two accused. However, in light of serious concerns

7 that we have to protect the confidentiality of our

8 witnesses and to protect their security and safety,

9 I will be filing a motion immediately after court with

10 the court requesting that the court order, special

11 protection of the information contained in the

12 documents concerning the victims and witnesses --

13 I have provided Mr Pantelic and Mr Pisarevic with

14 a copy of this motion prior to coming to the Chamber

15 today and I have copies in English and French, if your

16 Honour would like to review them here before I file

17 them with the Registrar.

18 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. We will see how we

19 are going to proceed to deal with that motion.

20 So, what date do you have in mind for the

21 completion of the disclosure of all of the statements,

22 both of the accused and the depositions of

23 statements? -- depositions of witnesses, excuse me. Do

24 you think that all this would be ready by -- what date?

25 I would like to remind you that the 60-day period will

Page 22

1 start to run from the point that all material has been

2 given to the Defence, everything that is covered by

3 Rule 66(a), therefore we have to have a date so that

4 I know that starting from that date the Defence will

5 have 60 days in order to file any preliminary motions

6 that it wants to do. How much time do you want?

7 A week?

8 MS PATERSON: Mr President, we are prepared

9 to hand over the supporting material to the Defence as

10 soon as the court rules on the protective order so that

11 material will be made available to them hopefully

12 within the next few days.

13 As far as the additional material goes, we

14 are prepared to follow the Rules of the Tribunal. We

15 will make the relevant material available as soon as

16 practicable. However, we will abide by the Rules that

17 we do not have to turn over the contents of the witness

18 statements we intend to call at trial until 60 days

19 before the trial begins.

20 JUDGE JORDA: Which means that from the time

21 that the Trial Chamber responds to your motion for --

22 concerning protection of witnesses, we could assume,

23 then, about three or four days, you would be in

24 a position to give all of the material to the Defence.

25 Is that correct?

Page 23

1 MS PATERSON: We can provide all of the

2 confirmation material tomorrow, your Honour, as soon as

3 the court rules on the protective order.

4 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. Can I therefore

5 say that at the end of the initial hearing, and after

6 I have spoken with my colleague, that we might possibly

7 give you an answer this afternoon. I would like to

8 confer with my colleague for a moment. (Pause).

9 The Trial Chamber has decided that

10 immediately after this initial hearing we will adjourn

11 for about an hour and then resume our hearing at which

12 point we can have -- we will then decide whether it

13 should be public or not, in order to hear the -- what

14 you have to say about your request, and anything that

15 the Defence would like to say as well. Any objection

16 to that, Ms Paterson?

17 MS PATERSON: That is fine, your Honour.

18 JUDGE JORDA: I now turn to the Defence

19 counsel, Mr Pantelic?

20 MR PANTELIC: Yes, your Honour, that is fine

21 with the Defence also.

22 JUDGE JORDA: Mr Pisarevic?

23 MR PISAREVIC: Your Honours, we agree with

24 this.

25 JUDGE JORDA: I intend to set the date for

Page 24

1 a conference, a Status Conference for 17th March at

2 2.45 where we will see where things are as regards

3 disclosure of materials, and perhaps at that point, in

4 light of any possible preliminary motions, we might be

5 able to set an approximate date for the trial itself.

6 I would again turn to the accused and ask

7 whether they have any comments that they would like to

8 make. First, Mr Tadic, no comments about what you

9 heard? Mr Tadic?

10 MR TADIC: Your Honours, I can only express

11 my gratitude to those who made it possible for us to

12 voluntarily come here without any coercion, especially

13 the staff of the American Embassy, and General Dzans

14 who accompanied us to the airport and Mr Siseke and his

15 deputy, Ellis, who also assisted in our safe arrival in

16 The Hague.

17 I also would like to thank the staff of the

18 detention unit, because they provided very good

19 conditions, and also to the gentlemen who escorted us

20 to this courtroom. They made it -- they enabled us to

21 view this nice town and after I am released I will seek

22 an asylum here because I like it here very much.

23 Just one more comment. I have established

24 contact with the Tribunal two years ago. We had

25 intense telephone discussions on several occasions, and

Page 25

1 I even sent some documents and so forth. However, the

2 reason why there are -- there are several reasons why

3 we did not come here together here sooner. However

4 I believe that it is still not too late so I would like

5 to thank you.

6 JUDGE JORDA: Mr Simic, have you any

7 statement to make? You do not have to if you do not

8 want to.

9 MR SIMIC: Yes. I also would like to express

10 my pleasant surprise by the very correct behaviour of

11 first of all the SFOR troops who allowed us to come to

12 The Hague, the Dutch police, the entire staff of the UN

13 detention in The Hague and I would like to express my

14 thanks to the Tribunal and the entire staff for this

15 kind of behaviour.

16 I also would like to point out that given my

17 physical condition, which makes it more difficult for

18 me to be accommodated, that everybody is going out of

19 their way to help me there.

20 I also would like to add that my decision to

21 come to this Tribunal have been around for a while and

22 it was really my physical condition that prevented me

23 from arriving here sooner. That is all. Thank you.

24 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. I would like to

25 turn to my colleague to ask whether he has any

Page 26


2 Ms Paterson, do you want to add something?

3 MS PATERSON: Yes, Mr President, just one

4 thing, briefly.

5 Well, while we realise that it is up to the

6 Defence to make such a motion, the Prosecution wanted

7 to bring to the court's attention the fact that should

8 the Defence counsel choose to file a motion regarding

9 Mr Simic for his provisional release, that depending on

10 the arrangements that could be made, the Prosecution

11 would look favourably on such a motion, and perhaps the

12 Defence might want to consider such action prior to our

13 next meeting on the 17th March.

14 JUDGE JORDA: Ms Paterson, I am very

15 sensitive to the fact that the Prosecutor is talking

16 about release. The Defence did not. I would like to

17 turn to the two counsel. I have not received any

18 request to that effect. Mr Pisarevic, Mr Pantelic,

19 first of all do you want to say something about that?

20 MR PANTELIC: Your Honour, I think it is --

21 I appreciate this position of the Office of the

22 Prosecutor, but I think it is too early to discuss all

23 these procedural matters. We are thinking seriously

24 about the whole possibility according to the Rules, but

25 of course we have some other ideas, maybe we shall

Page 27

1 discuss that later during the Status Conference,

2 et cetera. That is all for the moment. Thank you.

3 JUDGE JORDA: I therefore consider that for

4 the time being, that we have not received any request

5 for provisional release of either of the accused,

6 unless, Ms Paterson, you yourself file one which is

7 requesting the release of the accused which of course

8 is your right. After all, it was a request that the

9 accused were arrested. Do you intend to do that,

10 according to which, we will work as quickly as we can,

11 even this afternoon, but we have to ensure that there

12 is a representative of the host country here. What is

13 your opinion on that subject, Ms Paterson?

14 MS PATERSON: No, Mr President. The

15 Prosecution does not intend to file such a motion. As

16 I stated previously, we believe that that is in the

17 purview of the Defence to file that motion. However,

18 we have been informed of the physical condition of

19 Mr Simic. We are aware of his physical condition and

20 his limitations and because of that we wanted to bring

21 to the attention of both the court and the Defence

22 counsel that if arrangements can be worked out, the

23 Prosecution might be agreeable to such an arrangement,

24 but that is a motion for the Defence to make and if

25 they choose not to then the Prosecution will respect

Page 28

1 that decision.

2 JUDGE JORDA: I will now summarise things.

3 Provisional release may yet be requested. It

4 can be ordered by the judges themselves, in fact,

5 prepare emoto. It is self-evident in this type of

6 case, a request for provisional release. Let me remind

7 you, that in this Tribunal, it is the detention which

8 is the principal right, and that release is an

9 exceptional circumstance which has to be the case given

10 the seriousness of the crimes that are being charged

11 here, but this procedure does exist within the

12 Tribunal, and has been used in other cases.

13 The judges' opinion is that the request in

14 theory must either come from those who are responsible

15 for the arrest, that is the Prosecutor, or the Defence

16 which justifies this request, but we recall it at the

17 time being that we would then have to hear the

18 representative of the host country and under this

19 condition, since there is no request which has been

20 presented for provisional release either from the

21 Defence on the part of the accused or on the part of

22 the -- from the Prosecution for the time being does not

23 intend to do that, because it does not have

24 sufficiently specific medical information.

25 Having said this, I would suggest that we now

Page 29

1 adjourn this hearing and resume at 4 o'clock in order

2 to argue the request for the provision of protected

3 witnesses.

4 (3.25 pm)

5 (Adjourned)