Page 220
1 Wednesday, 28th October, 1998
2 (Further Initial Appearance)
3 (Open session)
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.45 p.m.
5 JUDGE JORDA: Please be seated.
6 Mr. Registrar, have the accused brought in and call the
7 case.
8 (The accused entered court)
9 THE REGISTRAR: It is the case IT-95-9-PT,
10 the Prosecutor versus Stevan Todorovic, also known as
11 Stiv, also known as Stevo, also known as Monstrum.
12 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Todorovic, you may be
13 seated. Can we have the appearances, the Prosecution
14 first, as soon as the photographer has finished.
15 Madam Prosecutor?
16 MS. PATERSON: Yes, Mr. President, as you
17 know, my name is Nancy Paterson. I'm representing the
18 Office of the Prosecutor today. To my right is the new
19 senior trial attorney assigned to this case, Mrs. Anne
20 Haslund from Denmark. Since she has just recently
21 arrived at the Tribunal, I will be handling the session
22 today, but at future sessions, Mrs. Haslund will be the
23 lead attorney. On her right is John Michelich.
24 JUDGE JORDA: First of all, we wish Ms. Anne
25 Haslund welcome. Am I pronouncing your name correctly,
Page 221
1 Haslund? Is that your name, Madam?
2 MS. HASLUND: Yes, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE JORDA: On behalf of my colleagues, we
4 wish you welcome to the Office of the Prosecutor and,
5 for the moment, to this Chamber.
6 The Defence counsel for Mr. Todorovic is?
7 MR. NESKOVIC: My name is Goran Neskovic,
8 attorney at law.
9 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. I should like to
10 recall that on the 30th of September, we asked
11 Mr. Todorovic, who had just been arrested, to indicate,
12 with the help of his counsel, how he pleaded, whether
13 he pleaded guilty or not guilty.
14 As you recall, Mr. Neskovic, your client,
15 said that the conditions of his arrest and the medical
16 consequences of that arrest, that is, the blow that he
17 suffered on his head, caused him to suffer, and that
18 due to that injury, he didn't consider himself capable
19 of pleading.
20 You asked the Chamber to undertake additional
21 medical examinations, more specifically, to be examined
22 by a scanner. Dr. Mosmans, who is a neurologic
23 specialist, gave us his report on the 8th of October
24 and said that there was no irregularity in the
25 condition and that he didn't consider any scanning
Page 222
1 examination necessary, as his neurological examination
2 showed that there were no abnormalities. The accused
3 was informed of this, as well as both parties.
4 Under those conditions, I turn now to
5 Mr. Todorovic. Mr. Todorovic, will you please rise?
6 My first question is, how do you feel, Mr. Todorovic?
7 THE ACCUSED: Mr. President, I feel much
8 better now, and I would like to thank you personally
9 and the Chamber in general for providing this
10 opportunity to me and for the high regard that you
11 showed in respect of me and my health. I hope that I
12 will not suffer any additional consequences. Thank
13 you.
14 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. That was quite
15 normal, because you told us that you were in pain.
16 When listening to the indictment, it was important to
17 make sure that you could understand well what the
18 Prosecution is charging you with before pleading.
19 You also remember, Mr. Todorovic, and you
20 will tell me if you do, that the indictment was read to
21 you. Do you wish us to reread it or to simply remind
22 you of the counts? I'm asking your opinion, and I will
23 ask your Defence counsel for his opinion too. Would
24 you like us to read the whole indictment and ask you to
25 plead on each count, or if you prefer another
Page 223
1 procedure. What is your feeling? Would you like your
2 Defence counsel to express his opinion instead of you?
3 THE ACCUSED: Mr. President, my counsel,
4 Mr. Neskovic, read to me the indictment in its entirety
5 at the detention unit, and I do understand it. As far
6 as I'm concerned, there is no need for a full reading
7 of the indictment.
8 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. I now turn to
9 Mr. Neskovic. Do you agree with the position taken by
10 your client?
11 MR. NESKOVIC: Yes, I do, Mr. President.
12 Only a reading of the individual counts is necessary.
13 JUDGE JORDA: Madam Nancy Paterson, are you
14 in agreement with this procedure, bearing in mind what
15 happened at the previous initial appearance?
16 MS. PATERSON: Yes, Mr. President. We have
17 no objections to that.
18 JUDGE JORDA: I turn to the registrar now,
19 and in full agreement with the accused, this will enter
20 in the record. We are going to ask Mr. Dubuisson to
21 read, with precision, the counts that concern
22 Mr. Todorovic in the present indictment. We are going
23 to ask Mr. Todorovic whether he pleads guilty or not
24 guilty.
25 Mr. Dubuisson, let us take the indictment.
Page 224
1 Counts 27, isn't that so?
2 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE JORDA: We will begin with paragraph
4 28. You will read the paragraph, the title of the
5 count, and then read each of the counts. After each
6 count, Mr. Todorovic, I will ask you to tell the Judges
7 whether you plead guilty or not guilty.
8 Mr. Dubuisson, you have the floor.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Counts 27 to 29, killing of
10 Anto Brandic: 28) On about 29 July, 1992 in the
11 hallway of the SUP building in Bosanski Samac, Stevan
12 Todorovic and others killed Anto Brandic, also known as
13 Antesa, by repeatedly beating and kicking him with
14 police batons and heavy boots. By these actions,
15 Stevan Todorovic committed or otherwise aided and
16 abetted:
17 Count 27: a grave breach recognised by
18 Article 2(a) (wilful killing) of the Tribunal Statute.
19 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Todorovic, regarding Count
20 27, in agreement with your counsel, do you intend to
21 plead guilty or not guilty?
22 THE ACCUSED: I plead not guilty in respect
23 of this count.
24 JUDGE JORDA: Count 28, Mr. Dubuisson.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Count 28: a violation of the
Page 225
1 laws or customs of war recognised by Article 3 of the
2 Tribunal Statute and Article 3(1)(a) (murder) of the
3 Geneva Conventions.
4 JUDGE JORDA: Count 28, do you plead guilty
5 or not guilty, Mr. Todorovic?
6 THE ACCUSED: Not guilty.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Count 29: a crime against
8 humanity recognised by Article 5(a) (murder) of the
9 Tribunal Statute.
10 JUDGE JORDA: Do you plead guilty or not
11 guilty?
12 THE ACCUSED: Not guilty.
13 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Dubuisson, let us go on to
14 Counts 30 to 32; isn't that so?
15 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. Counts 30 to 32,
16 beatings in the SUP building: 29) On about 29 July,
17 1992 in the hallway of the SUP building in Bosanski
18 Samac, Stevan Todorovic and others repeatedly beat and
19 kicked Enver Ibralic, Hasan Jasarevic, Omer Nalic, and
20 Father Jozo Puskaric with police batons and heavy
21 boots, thereby causing the victims physical injury. By
22 these actions, Stevan Todorovic committed or otherwise
23 aided and abetted:
24 Count 30: a grave breach (wilfully causing
25 great suffering) recognised by Article 2(c) of the
Page 226
1 Tribunal Statute.
2 JUDGE JORDA: Do you plead guilty or not
3 guilty?
4 THE ACCUSED: Not guilty.
5 JUDGE JORDA: Count 31.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Count 31: a violation of the
7 laws or customs of war recognised by Article 3 of the
8 Tribunal Statute and Article 3(1)(a) (cruel treatment)
9 of the Geneva Conventions.
10 JUDGE JORDA: Do you plead guilty or not
11 guilty?
12 THE ACCUSED: Not guilty.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Count 32: a crime against
14 humanity recognised by Article 5(i) (inhumane acts) of
15 the Tribunal Statute.
16 JUDGE JORDA: Do you plead guilty or not
17 guilty?
18 THE ACCUSED: Not guilty.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Counts 33 to 35, beating of
20 Silvestar Antunovic. 30) On about 15 July, 1992 in the
21 gymnasium of the Bosanski Samac primary school, Stevan
22 Todorovic and others repeatedly beat Silvestar
23 Antunovic with a large wooden club. As a result of the
24 beating, Silvestar Antunovic suffered partial paralysis
25 and other serious physical injury. By these actions,
Page 227
1 Stevan Todorovic committed or otherwise aided and
2 abetted:
3 Count 33: a grave breach recognised by
4 Article 2(c) (wilfully causing great suffering) of the
5 Tribunal Statute.
6 THE ACCUSED: Not guilty.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Count 34: a violation of the
8 laws or customs of war recognised by Article 3 of the
9 Tribunal Statute and Article 3(1)(a) (cruel treatment)
10 of the Geneva Conventions.
11 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Todorovic?
12 THE ACCUSED: Not guilty.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Count 35: a crime against
14 humanity recognised by Article 5(i) (inhumane acts) of
15 the Tribunal Statute.
16 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Todorovic?
17 THE ACCUSED: Not guilty, Your Honour.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Counts 36 to 38, sexual
19 assault. 31) On about 13 June, 1992 in the hallway of
20 the Bosanski Samac SUP building, Stevan Todorovic
21 forced Witness A and Witness B to perform sexual acts
22 upon each other in the presence of several other
23 prisoners and guards. By these actions, Stevan
24 Todorovic instigated, ordered, and committed:
25 Count 36: a grave breach recognised by
Page 228
1 Article 2(b) (inhumane treatment) of the Tribunal
2 Statute.
3 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Todorovic?
4 THE ACCUSED: Not guilty.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Count 37: a violation of the
6 laws or customs of war recognised by Article 3 of the
7 Tribunal Statute and Article 3(1)(c) (humiliating and
8 degrading treatment) of the Geneva Conventions.
9 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Todorovic?
10 THE ACCUSED: Not guilty.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Count 38: a crime against
12 humanity recognised by Article 5(g) (rape, which
13 includes other forms of sexual assault) of the Tribunal
14 Statute.
15 THE ACCUSED: Not guilty.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Counts 39 to 41, torture of
17 Omer Nalic. 32) On about 19 June, 1992 at the Bosanski
18 Samac primary school, while questioning Omer Nalic
19 about a radio transmitter, Stevan Todorovic ordered
20 three men to beat Omer Nalic. By these actions, Stevan
21 Todorovic instigated, ordered, committed, or aided and
22 abetted:
23 Count 39: a grave breach recognised by
24 Article 2(b) (torture) of the Tribunal Statute.
25 THE ACCUSED: Not guilty.
Page 229
1 THE REGISTRAR: Count 40: a violation of the
2 laws or customs of war recognised by Article 3 of the
3 Tribunal Statute and Article 3(1)(a) (torture) of the
4 Geneva Conventions.
5 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Todorovic?
6 THE ACCUSED: Not guilty.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Count 41: a crime against
8 humanity recognised by Article 5(f) (torture) of the
9 Geneva Conventions.
10 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Todorovic?
11 THE ACCUSED: I plead not guilty.
12 JUDGE JORDA: You may be seated,
13 Mr. Todorovic.
14 THE ACCUSED: Thank you.
15 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Todorovic, the written
16 record of this hearing has registered the fact that you
17 have pleaded not guilty to all the counts alleged by
18 the Office of the Prosecutor.
19 I turn to Mrs. Nancy Paterson to ask her how
20 she foresees the procedural proceedings before this
21 Tribunal, where we are regarding the disclosure of
22 statements of the accused and other persons in support
23 of the indictment. I will also ask the opinion of the
24 Defence, whether we can set at least a provisional
25 timetable.
Page 230
1 Mrs. Paterson?
2 MS. PATERSON: Yes, Mr. President. I think
3 the office of the Prosecutor has been proceeding with
4 the discovery obligations in a very timely matter. We
5 have provided all the material in support of this
6 indictment to Mr. Neskovic at the last appearance on
7 the 30th of September, 1998. We have complied with
8 Rule 66(a)(i). All material has been turned over, and
9 that's been turned over in the language that
10 Mr. Todorovic can understand.
11 We are prepared to turn over some additional
12 discovery material to Mr. Neskovic that we have already
13 provided to the other three Defence attorneys for the
14 other three accused. We can turn that over almost
15 immediately, if the Court so prefers. I believe that
16 we did mention at the last proceeding that, as a result
17 of the arrival of Mr. Todorovic, we do anticipate
18 amending this indictment to reflect his inclusion with
19 the other three men that we have in custody. We are
20 prepared to proceed with submitting that amended
21 indictment as quickly as possible, pending some
22 discussions we would like to have with Mr. Neskovic
23 before we make that final decision.
24 We have been proceeding with the discovery
25 for the other three accused in a very timely manner.
Page 231
1 We have turned over all of the witness statements that
2 we're obligated to up to this point in time. We have
3 complied with their request under Rule 66. We will be
4 providing a significant amount of additional discovery
5 material tomorrow to the other Defence counsel.
6 Basically, we have complied with all of our disclosure
7 obligations up to the point when the Court sets a trial
8 date, and our final discovery obligations then become
9 effective. I don't know, frankly, what more we can be
10 doing to move along the discovery process.
11 We are quite hopeful that, despite the fact
12 that Mr. Todorovic has come into the custody of the
13 Tribunal significantly after the arrival of the other
14 three accused, we are optimistic that that should not
15 significantly delay our ability to start the trial at
16 approximately the same time we had hoped to be able to
17 begin, prior to the arrival of Mr. Todorovic. We are
18 prepared to expedite our discovery material to
19 Mr. Neskovic so that we can move the case to trial as
20 quickly as possible.
21 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Neskovic?
22 MR. NESKOVIC: Mr. President, I received some
23 materials from the Prosecutor one month ago. I'm
24 currently studying them, and I am preparing my
25 strategy. I will provide to the Prosecutor certain
Page 232
1 witness statements myself. But since Mr. Todorovic is
2 not fully linked with the other three accused, because
3 they have been preparing for their Defence for about a
4 year and Mr. Todorovic has been detained for only a
5 limited amount of time, I will need some additional
6 time to prepare my Defence.
7 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. You know that as of
8 today and the disclosure of the statements, we can fix
9 the date for preliminary motions. I'm now going to
10 give the floor to Judge Rodrigues who has been
11 appointed as the Pre-Trial Judge for Todorovic and the
12 three other accused.
13 Judge Rodrigues, you accepted to be the
14 Pre-Trial Judge. Do you wish to comment, perhaps?
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you, Mr. President.
16 Yes, I am the Pre-Trial Judge for the Simic case. I
17 think that the intention of the Chamber was always to
18 deal with the case with the four accused who were, from
19 the beginning, charged under the same indictment. We
20 have heard and understood well what the Defence counsel
21 has just said, but I think that there are some common
22 elements among all the accused, so that it would be
23 desirable to have the trial together. That is my
24 opinion as the Pre-Trial Judge. I think that this view
25 is shared by the President and Judge Fuad Riad.
Page 233
1 That is all I had to say at the moment,
2 Mr. President.
3 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. We need to set a
4 date for the Status Conference under your
5 chairmanship.
6 Mr. Neskovic, do you intend to submit any
7 preliminary motions within the 30-day deadline after
8 the disclosure of documents, because if I understood
9 well, Ms. Paterson, you will be disclosing all the
10 materials today or tomorrow. I remind you of the
11 provisions of Article 66(a)(i) "Within 30 days of the
12 initial appearance of the accused, copies of the
13 supporting material which accompanied the indictment
14 when confirmation was sought should be disclosed," and
15 that time begins to run, I think, in Article 72 or
16 Article 73. This is specified in Rule 72. You are
17 able to submit preliminary motions not later than 30
18 days after disclosure by the Prosecutor of all material
19 and statements referred to in Rule 66(a)(i).
20 Can we fix today this period of 30 days,
21 Ms. Paterson?
22 MS. PATERSON: Yes, Mr. President. We
23 complied with Rule 66(a)(i) to provide all the
24 supporting material. We gave that to Mr. Neskovic on
25 the 30th of September. He has already has that
Page 234
1 material for three or four weeks. From that
2 perspective, there's no reason why we can't set the
3 date.
4 What I stated earlier is that we're prepared
5 to provide additional discovery to him that,
6 technically, we're not even obligated to at this point,
7 but in an attempt to move the case along, we will
8 provide him with the same discovery material we have
9 already provided to the other three Defence attorneys.
10 JUDGE JORDA: I think that we can count the
11 30-day period as of today, the day of the initial
12 appearance. That deadline will be the 30th of
13 November.
14 Are you agreeable, Mr. Neskovic? You will
15 have until the 30th of November to decide whether you
16 will submit one or several preliminary motions in
17 defence of your client under Article 72 of the Rules of
18 Procedures and Evidence.
19 Mr. Fourmy has just reminded me of
20 something. He is watching over our work with
21 vigilance, and I thank him. He reminds me that
22 Ms. Paterson intends to modify the indictment. That is
23 more of a formal nature, is it not? You are simply
24 going to reintroduce Mr. Todorovic's name in the
25 already amended indictment or do you intend to make
Page 235
1 other amendments? Otherwise, this 30-day period will
2 be delayed.
3 MS. PATERSON: Mr. President, as things stand
4 now, we would intend to, as you say, essentially just
5 put Mr. Todorovic into the currently existing amended
6 indictment, which would mean adding a persecution count
7 against Mr. Todorovic and restating the counts
8 essentially as they are written now, perhaps with
9 adding a couple of additional victims to some of the
10 counts, but no additional substantive counts, other
11 than what already exists in the amended indictment
12 pending against the other three accused.
13 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. I am now addressing
14 the Defence counsel. In view of the intention
15 announced by the Office of the Prosecution, do you
16 agree that we set the date as November the 30th,
17 regardless of the amendment which will require that we
18 have another small initial appearance.
19 Do you agree that in order to save time we
20 fix November the 30th as the deadline for the
21 submission of any possible preliminary motions?
22 MR. NESKOVIC: Yes, I agree, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. Judge Rodrigues had
24 all this in mind and will bear all this in mind for his
25 future efforts.
Page 236
1 Mr. Fourmy, are there any other matters to
2 deal with?
3 Judge Rodrigues, yes?
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Excuse me, Ms. Nancy
5 Paterson. I didn't quite understand whether you were
6 going to add other counts or at least one count or do
7 you intend only to add other victims? Could you clear
8 that point up for me, please?
9 MS. PATERSON: Yes, Mr. President. In the
10 amended indictment currently pending against the other
11 three accused, there is a persecution count which was
12 not included in this indictment. We will add a count
13 of persecution against Mr. Todorovic, and the other
14 counts that have just been read to him today will
15 remain. The only difference may be that, in what are
16 now Counts 36 to 38 involving sexual assaults, we may
17 add some additional victims to that count, but
18 otherwise, the counts will remain essentially the
19 same.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: In any event, I think that
21 this can be done quickly so as to have the trial of all
22 four accused together.
23 MS. PATERSON: Yes. It's our intention to
24 submit that as quickly as possible. First, having to
25 have some consultations with Mr. Neskovic concerning
Page 237
1 his client and the direction he would like to see the
2 case proceed, we will attempt to have those as quickly
3 as possible, and we will try to submit the amended
4 indictment, hopefully, within the next two weeks.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. President, would you
6 allow me to ask Mr. Olivier Fourmy whether there is an
7 available date that we can set for our next Status
8 Conference?
9 Mr. Fourmy, are you in a position to tell us,
10 in consultation with the Registry, whether we can
11 already set a date today for our next Status
12 Conference.
13 MR. FOURMY: Mr. President, I would prefer
14 the registrar to give you an answer to that question.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Marc Dubuisson, can you
16 give me a date?
17 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. We could,
18 perhaps, have a Status Conference. You would probably
19 prefer after the 30-day period.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: No, before the 30-day
21 period for preliminary motions.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Then we could set Wednesday
23 morning, the 18th of November as a date.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Before that date, next
25 week?
Page 238
1 THE REGISTRAR: Next week, we could meet on
2 Wednesday, the 4th of November, Wednesday morning at
3 10.00.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. President, if I may,
5 may I ask Madam Nancy Paterson whether this date is
6 suitable for a Status Conference?
7 MS. PATERSON: Just give me one moment.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Excuse us, Ms. Nancy
9 Paterson, could you please respond to my question?
10 MS. PATERSON: Mr. President, from the
11 perspective of the OTP, we have no problem with the 4th
12 meeting. I would just bring to your attention a couple
13 of matters. It's our understanding that at least two
14 of the Defence attorneys for the other accused are here
15 in The Hague this week, but I don't know what their
16 travel plans were as to whether they were planning to
17 be here next week. I don't believe that the attorney
18 for Mr. Milan Simic is here. As you're aware, with the
19 travel situation in Serbia as a result of the Kosovo
20 problems, it is somewhat difficult for the attorneys to
21 arrange travel plans on short notice.
22 In addition, I'm assuming, if you want that
23 quick of a date, you do not expect us to have submitted
24 and have confirmed the amended indictment. As long as
25 that is understood, that that will take us a bit longer
Page 239
1 to do that, then we have no objection to a meeting next
2 week.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Regarding Mr. Neskovic,
4 what is your opinion, Defence counsel?
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel.
6 MR. NESKOVIC: This delay is very close. I
7 would like to have it moved later on, because the
8 travel arrangements are rather problematic, and it is
9 very difficult for us to come to The Hague from
10 Belgrade.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you. The concern of
12 the Pre-Trial Judge is the following: Mr. President,
13 Judge Jorda, at the previous appearance of the other
14 accused, in a sense, promised that after the 16th of
15 October, we would have a Status Conference. That date
16 was not observed because we had the initial appearance
17 of Mr. Todorovic. I think that we need at least to
18 give an explanation to the other accused regarding the
19 situation with this trial, and we need to convey to
20 them the state of the proceedings.
21 I also understand that the date may be rather
22 too early, so perhaps it would be better to see the
23 calendar, to bear in mind your remarks. After that, we
24 will communicate with you to tell you the date chosen.
25 But as the Pre-Trial Judge, I would prefer to have a
Page 240
1 Status Conference as soon as possible because we also
2 have the three other accused who are still waiting for
3 the Tribunal to provide information to them or to give
4 them an opportunity to know, to learn, the status of
5 these proceedings. That is my concern.
6 In any event, it would be better to set a
7 date a little later. I have no further questions.
8 JUDGE JORDA: Are there any other remarks or
9 observations, Ms. Paterson?
10 MS. PATERSON: No, Mr. President. We will
11 make ourselves available on whatever date the Court
12 suggests.
13 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. Mr. Neskovic?
14 MR. NESKOVIC: No further remarks, Your
15 Honour. Thank you.
16 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Fourmy, any remarks? No.
17 In that case, the hearing is adjourned.
18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
19 3.25 p.m. sine die
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