Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 679

1 Wednesday, 24th November, 1999

2 [Motion hearing]

3 [Open session]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.32 p.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Will the Registrar call the

7 case, please?

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your

9 Honours. Case number IT-95-9-PT, the Prosecutor versus

10 Milan Simic, Miroslav Tadic, Stevan Todorovic and Simo

11 Zaric.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Brashich, we are to

13 begin today's proceedings with evidence from

14 Mr. Todorovic.

15 MR. BRASHICH: Yes, Your Honour. There are

16 just two or three minor matters that I would like to

17 bring out before calling my first witness.

18 The first matter, Your Honour: I take it

19 from the comments made by Judge Hunt with regard to the

20 writ of habeas corpus petition, that it is not

21 entertained by Chambers, will that only remain an oral

22 decision or will that be followed by a written

23 decision?

24 JUDGE HUNT: I'm afraid you can't verbal me

25 quite like that, Mr. Brashich.

Page 680

1 MR. BRASHICH: I'm sorry, Your Honour?

2 JUDGE HUNT: You can't verbal me quite like

3 that. What I said was we have no power to make an

4 order for a writ for habeas corpus. I said the issue

5 has to be dealt with as an application to challenge the

6 legality of your client's detention. Nobody said that

7 your writ, so-called, will not be entertained, but not

8 in the form in which it is.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Brashich, I think we

10 have had enough of this. Let's not get diverted by

11 classifications and nomenclature. My inclination is to

12 deal with substance, not procedure.

13 You have filed what you called a writ of

14 habeas corpus. The Tribunal's Statute does not

15 recognise a writ of habeas corpus. But essentially a

16 writ of habeas corpus seeks to challenge the legality

17 of the detention of an accused person, and we have an

18 obligation to hear that.

19 MR. BRASHICH: I understand that, Your

20 Honour. All I was asking for was a very simple

21 clarification.

22 My second point, Your Honour, is that with

23 regard to my calling Mr. Todorovic as a witness, I

24 would like to have a motion in limine whereby my

25 client's right not to testify against him be still

Page 681

1 continued and that his testimony is for the purposes of

2 whatever we want to call it, either a writ of habeas

3 corpus or a motion testing his detention.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Brashich, we are hearing

6 two motions, and ultimately the Chamber will give its

7 decision on the two motions: the writ of habeas

8 corpus, if you prefer that classification, or the

9 challenge to the legality of the accused's detention;

10 and secondly, the writ for the return of the accused.

11 With regard to the in limine point, the

12 accused may, of course, be cross-examined but not to

13 the questions that go to his guilt or innocence. The

14 cross-examination will be limited to the

15 examination-in-chief and to the questions that are

16 pertinent to this particular inquiry.

17 MR. BRASHICH: Thank you, Your Honour. The

18 last point is --

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel,

20 please.

21 MR. BRASHICH: I'm sorry. Thank you. I

22 filed a motion with the Court early this morning, and I

23 made an error stating September 27th and 28th. The

24 dates in the motion should be 26th and 27th, and as

25 soon as I get back to New York on Friday, I will refile

Page 682

1 a corrected version, but I did not want to have the

2 Chamber be misled by my early-morning mistake.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: We have only just received

4 that motion and we haven't yet had a chance to --

5 MR. BRASHICH: Thank you, Your Honour. With

6 regard -- that ends the preliminary matters, and the

7 Todorovic Defence would then call Mr. Todorovic in

8 support of the motions.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Neimann.

10 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, Your Honour. My

11 understanding of the proceedings today was to hear the

12 motion in the nature of habeas corpus. It wasn't my

13 understanding that there was going to be any motion --

14 hearing of the motion in relation to the return of the

15 accused, and if that is to occur today, well, I object

16 to that on the grounds that these issues have been well

17 litigated on numerous occasions by previous motions

18 that have been brought by the accused.

19 My understanding of the exchange between us

20 yesterday, Your Honours, was that a new matter had

21 arisen, namely, the writ of habeas corpus or the

22 proceedings in nature of that, and that was a matter

23 where this accused had not, in the past, challenged the

24 warrant or the validity of his arrest. That is one

25 matter, and I acknowledge that that was, in effect, the

Page 683

1 case. I didn't believe it to be at the time, and I

2 still don't believe it to be a matter of issue between

3 the parties, but if he wishes to pursue it, I didn't

4 raise objection.

5 But, Your Honours, I certainly do object to

6 going into the second issue, which in my submission has

7 been canvassed extensively in numerous motions that

8 have been brought and, in fact, it has gone as far as

9 the Court of Appeal and back down again.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Niemann, speaking for

11 myself, I am not in agreement with that. We are, in

12 fact, hearing two motions. They are to a certain

13 extent linked, and for practical purposes it's

14 convenient to hear them.

15 The previous motion that you spoke of that

16 went to the Court of Appeal was dismissed by this

17 Chamber on the ground that there was not presented

18 sufficient evidence. The Appeals Chamber held that

19 this Chamber was correct in exercising that discretion

20 and coming to that conclusion. The accused has

21 subsequently presented evidence as to what he considers

22 to be an illegality and it is that which is being

23 canvassed today and that is a new matter.

24 JUDGE HUNT: If I may say so, not having been

25 there myself but from reading all the material, the

Page 684

1 only issue which was determined in the previous

2 proceedings was where the onus of proof lay, and that's

3 the only matter that went to the Appeals Chamber.

4 MR. NIEMANN: In --

5 JUDGE HUNT: Wait a minute, Mr. Niemann.

6 There's no finding that there's no consideration in any

7 of the decisions to all of the submissions which the

8 Prosecution has made as to what the law was. It was

9 simply an issue that he had presented no evidence, he

10 asserting that the Prosecution had the onus of proof,

11 and the Prosecution correcting saying, "No, it's not

12 our onus." Now, that was held against him. He's now

13 come back accepting that he's led evidence, but no

14 other issue was determined in any of those proceedings.

15 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, the procedure

16 that he decided upon failed and he made, presumably, an

17 intelligent assessment of the course that he would seek

18 to pursue.

19 JUDGE HUNT: I think we debated this

20 yesterday, Mr. Niemann, and I pointed out to you that

21 the Appeals Chamber decision, to which you referred

22 correctly, said that you are not debarred from bringing

23 a second application if some new circumstance arises.

24 Well, the new circumstance which arises is he's been

25 proved wrong as to his contention as to where the onus

Page 685

1 of proof lay, and I asked you yesterday whether you

2 were still pursuing the technicality that you were

3 relying upon rather than the merits of the case.

4 Now, I know that you did not concede

5 anything, but it was made very clear to you yesterday

6 that that was why we were going on to hear this second

7 application.

8 MR. NIEMANN: My understanding, Your Honour,

9 was that the discussion yesterday was related to the

10 motion in the nature of habeas corpus.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Perhaps you were in error, and

12 you've made your bed to lie on, just as you are

13 asserting that the applicant made his.

14 MR. NIEMANN: Well, in that event, Your

15 Honours, I can only take it that Your Honours overrule

16 my objection based on the fact that these matters have

17 been previously litigated.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Proceed, Mr. Brashich.

19 MR. BRASHICH: Yes, Your Honour. The

20 Todorvic Defence calls Stevan Todorovic to the stand.

21 May I inquire of the procedure, Your Honour,

22 will the witness be testifying from the place in the

23 dock, or will he be testifying from the witness chair?

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: He will be testifying from

25 the witness chair.

Page 686

1 Let the witness make the solemn declaration.

2 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

3 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

4 truth.


6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Brashich.

8 MR. BRASHICH: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Examined by Mr. Brashich:

10 Q. Mr. Todorovic, are you the accused in this

11 case?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And at one time, you lived at Bosanski Samac?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In July of 1998, where were you residing?

16 A. In July of 1998, I was in Serbia, in the town

17 of Rudine, in the municipality of Cajetina, at Mt.

18 Zlatibor.

19 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... as the

20 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. When did you move from Bosanski Samac to

23 Yugoslavia?

24 A. In January 1998.

25 Q. When you moved from Bosanski Samac to

Page 687

1 Yugoslavia, did you cross an international border?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you use --

4 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]

5 Mr. Brashich, I need to interrupt you for a moment,

6 just for the clarity of this testimony. You should

7 ask -- I should like you to ask the witness, what was

8 his nationality at the time -- that is, his citizenship

9 -- at the time when he left Bosanski Samac.

10 MR. BRASHICH: Yes, Your Honour.

11 Q. What was your nationality in January of

12 1998?

13 A. The citizenship was one of the Republika

14 Srpska.

15 Q. Did you have a passport or a personal

16 identity card issued by the Republika Srpska?

17 A. I had a personal identification card of

18 Republika Srpska.

19 Q. And when was that identity document issued?

20 A. I believe in 1994.

21 Q. And by whom?

22 A. By the Ministry of the Interior of the

23 Republika Srpska.

24 Q. Where?

25 A. In Samac.

Page 688

1 Q. And what document did you use when you went

2 across the border between Republika Srpska and

3 Yugoslavia?

4 A. I used my personal identification card.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please be

6 advised to pause between question and answer.


8 Q. In July, August, and September --

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Brashich, you are being

10 asked by the interpreters to observe a pause between

11 the answer and the question.


13 Q. In July, August, and September of 1998, were

14 you employed?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. By whom were you employed?

17 A. I worked in Cajetina, in the MUP [translation

18 error].

19 Q. What was the name of the company that

20 employed you?

21 A. This was a private company called Danica in

22 Cajetina.

23 Q. And what was the business of this

24 enterprise?

25 MR. PANTELIC: Sorry, Your Honours, there is

Page 689

1 a mistake in the transcript. His answer, "I worked in

2 Cajetina, in the MUP," which means "Police." It is not

3 that the witness said that.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Brashich, would you

5 clarify that?

6 MR. BRASHICH: Yes, sir. I thank my brother

7 Pantelic.

8 THE INTERPRETER: It was the interpreter's

9 mistake.


11 Q. I repeat again: By what enterprise were you

12 employed in July, August, and September of 1998?

13 A. A private company called Danica, in Cajetina.

14 Q. In July, August, or September, were you

15 employed by any organ or part of the Yugoslav

16 government?

17 A. No.

18 Q. What was the business of this enterprise?

19 A. The enterprise produced and sold protective

20 clothing for workers.

21 Q. And what was your position with the firm?

22 A. I was an outside salesman. I sold these

23 products.

24 Q. In September of 1998, where were you

25 physically living?

Page 690

1 A. I lived in the village of Rudine, in the

2 Cajetina municipality.

3 Q. Just to visualise this little village of

4 Rudine, what is the nearest large town?

5 A. The nearest sizeable town is Uzice, which is

6 about 20 kilometres away.

7 Q. Did you live in a flat, or did you live in a

8 house?

9 A. I lived in a small wooden house.

10 Q. Did you live alone, or did you live with

11 someone else?

12 A. I lived alone.

13 Q. Did that little house have an address?

14 A. It had an address. It was Rudine, no

15 number.

16 Q. On September 26th, 1998, were you in the

17 village of Rudine at approximately 8.00 or 9.00 p.m. of

18 that day?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. At that time, what, if anything, first

21 happened to you at that house?


23 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, Your Honours. I raise an

24 objection on the basis of relevance. It seems to me

25 that the events that occurred at this particular time

Page 691

1 in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia can hardly be

2 relevant to the arrest, which is the subject of this

3 application, which subsequently occurred in the

4 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina at Tuzla. And so, in my

5 submission, Your Honours, none of this evidence of what

6 occurred up until the time of the arrest is relevant at

7 all.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Brashich?

9 MR. BRASHICH: Your Honour, it is the

10 Defence's position that this is the initial step that

11 takes the defendant from his residence in Rudine in

12 Yugoslavia, at approximately 9.00 on the 26th of

13 September, and ends up at Tuzla air force base some ten

14 hours thereafter, when -- and then there's a question,

15 because if -- as the evidence will show, the detention

16 by SFOR occurred sometime prior to any possible time

17 that the defendant was placed under arrest.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Are you going to argue that the

19 Prosecution is somehow responsible by colluding with

20 whoever it was who is alleged to have kidnapped your

21 client?

22 MR. BRASHICH: I am not prepared to argue

23 that the Prosecution was in collusion; I am prepared to

24 argue that the SFOR forces were in collusion with

25 individuals who had abducted, kidnapped, my client from

Page 692

1 the territory of Yugoslavia, breaching that state's

2 sovereignty, crossing illegally an internationally

3 recognised boundary, and then breaching the sovereignty

4 of Bosnia and Herzegovina prior to delivery to the

5 Prosecution and this Tribunal.

6 JUDGE HUNT: So you are going to argue, are

7 you, that even though the Prosecution was not

8 responsible for this, somehow it's relevant? Is that

9 what you're going to argue?

10 MR. BRASHICH: I would think that my argument

11 would focus on the idea that the SFOR forces were

12 acting as agents of the Prosecution, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Right, yes, and that they

14 colluded with the people who are alleged to have

15 kidnapped your client?

16 MR. BRASHICH: Yes, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE HUNT: So it's going to be a factual

18 issue that you want to establish?

19 MR. BRASHICH: Yes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE HUNT: I see.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Niemann, do you want to

23 reply? Yes.

24 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, it's only that

25 unless the situation has changed since my friend filed

Page 693

1 his various motions in this matter, because in a motion

2 that he filed on the 20th of October, 1999, on page 2

3 of that motion, he says, in the statement in support of

4 the motion, that: "In relation to this day" -- that

5 is, the 26th of September -- "four individuals unknown

6 to me, by use of force and threats and bodily harm,"

7 et cetera, and then he goes on to say, "I never

8 consented to the four unknown individuals."

9 So I raise this because, having seen this, it

10 seems to me that unless circumstances have changed,

11 unless he can promise to produce some evidence to

12 refute that position, he stated -- not only on this

13 occasion, but on this and other occasions -- that he

14 simply doesn't know who they are.

15 JUDGE HUNT: He also said yesterday that he

16 wasn't restricting himself to what was in that

17 affidavit, and he said he had two more witnesses to

18 call. Now, we haven't seen statements and there's

19 nothing in the papers, but I thought that he has agreed

20 with me he is going to lead evidence from which he is

21 going to invite us to draw those inferences. We

22 haven't got a very good case laid out for us to

23 consider at this stage, but, nevertheless, if he's says

24 he's going to prove it, we've got to let him attempt to

25 do so.

Page 694

1 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour. If the position

2 has changed since he's filed those motions, then

3 certainly I would withdraw my objection on that basis,

4 but I sincerely hope that we are not going to be

5 subjected to all this evidence only to hear that the

6 situation is precisely the same as it was some months

7 ago.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Niemann. The

9 Chamber is satisfied as to the relevance of this

10 evidence.

11 Proceed, Mr. Brashich.


13 Q. Let me rephrase the question. On

14 September 26th, at your home in Rudine, at

15 approximately 8.00 or 9.00 that evening, what, if

16 anything, happened initially?

17 A. Sometime around 8.00 I fell asleep. I had

18 been watching television. Sometime around 9.00 I heard

19 knocks on my door, and instinctively I jumped up and I

20 just started towards the door. I could hear the yells

21 by neighbours.

22 Q. Where was the banging coming from?

23 A. From the other side of the door, directly the

24 other side.

25 Q. Did you open the door?

Page 695

1 A. I tried to open the door, and there was an

2 unknown man who came through the door with a handgun

3 pointing at me, and then he hit me over the head and

4 threw me on the bed. The house was three to four

5 metres long.

6 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

7 accompanied by anybody else.

8 A. Immediately after that, he was followed by

9 another man and then I saw two additional men, so

10 altogether four men.

11 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... did he

12 continue to hold the pistol, the gun?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did he say anything to you?

15 A. He said, "Why are you hiding? Come on, let's

16 go."

17 Q. What did you say to him?

18 A. I said that it must be a mistake, that there

19 is no reason, and he said, "Quit talking. Get up and

20 let's go."

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Brashich, could I find

22 out in what language was the person speaking?


24 Q. Were they speaking Serbian or were they

25 speaking another language?

Page 696

1 A. They spoke Serbian.

2 Q. And what did you say to them?

3 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Brashich, please come

4 closer to his microphone.

5 A. I was told it was a mistake --

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Brashich, you're being

7 asked by the interpreters to come closer to the

8 microphone, and I think you're not observing the pause

9 between the answer and the question. You're beginning

10 to speak when the interpretation is not concluded.

11 MR. BRASHICH: Yes, Your Honour.

12 Q. What did you say to them?

13 A. I said that it must be a mistake, that there

14 was no reason for me to go with them, because I didn't

15 know them.

16 Q. After that, was anything said by you or by

17 them further on this topic?

18 A. The second one, the one with the baseball bat

19 in his hand, he said, "Come. Let's go. We can't waste

20 time talking to you."

21 Q. Then what happened?

22 A. Then the two of them grabbed me by my two

23 arms and dragged me out of that little house.

24 Q. Did you agree to go with them?

25 A. No.

Page 697

1 Q. After you left the house, where did you go?

2 A. After I left that little house, they pulled

3 me into a passenger car.

4 Q. Did you have an occasion to see the licence

5 plates of that vehicle?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Was it at that time light or dark outside?

8 A. It was dark, but light was coming from the

9 house because the door was open, and the car was only

10 three or four metres away from that little house, so

11 that one could see the car and the plates.

12 Q. The licence plate that you saw, was that an

13 official plate or was it a civilian plate?

14 A. Civilian plate.

15 Q. In Yugoslavia, what is the difference between

16 an official plate and a civilian plate licence plate?

17 A. Civilian plates have a white background and

18 characters and figures are black, and the police

19 vehicles have white letters and figures against a blue

20 background.

21 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

22 automobile, where did the five of you sit?

23 A. Then we were pushed onto a back seat and two

24 of them sat to the left and right of me and the other

25 two sat in front.

Page 698

1 Q. Did you enter the vehicle voluntarily?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did the automobile start moving?

4 A. It did.

5 Q. In which direction?

6 A. In the direction of the Belgrade-Podgorica

7 highway.

8 Q. When you got to the Belgrade-Podgorica

9 highway, what, if anything, happened at that point?

10 A. They stopped the vehicle when they came to

11 the first enlarged area.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Will the counsel please

13 wait for the interpreters to finish.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Brashich, really. If you

15 perhaps put your headphones around your ears you would

16 hear when the translation has concluded, that they're

17 running a long time behind you when you start your next

18 question.


20 Q. Was anything said?

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel,

22 please.


24 Q. Was anything said at the time that the

25 vehicle stopped at the Belgrade-Podgorica highway?

Page 699

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What, if anything, was said?

3 A. The man who was sitting next to the driver

4 told the driver to get off and change the plates.

5 Q. Did you see the change of licence plates?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Was your eyesight in any way restricted at

8 that time?

9 A. Well, the rear part of the car, yes, it was

10 restricted. I saw the driver got out, but I don't know

11 what he was doing outside. He only got off and very

12 quickly he was back and continued on the way.

13 Q. In which direction did the car then start

14 moving?

15 A. He started towards Uzice and Belgrade.

16 Q. And for what period of time did you drive

17 along that highway?

18 A. We rode along that highway for about half an

19 hour.

20 Q. During those 30 minutes, was there any

21 conversation? Did you have any conversation with the

22 four men?

23 A. Yes, but it took a very short time.

24 Q. What did they say to you and what did you say

25 to them?

Page 700

1 A. They said to me that they were taking me

2 because I was owing some money to somebody and they

3 were to collect that debt. I answered that I didn't

4 owe any money to anyone and that, therefore, there must

5 have been some mistake.

6 Q. When they first entered your home, did they

7 show you any identification or badges?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Did they show you any arrest warrant or court

10 order for your detention?

11 A. No.

12 Q. What happened thereafter? We're back on the

13 road towards Uzice. What happened then?

14 A. They turned off that highway to the left, in

15 the direction of Arilja Valjevo and the River Drina.

16 Q. And then what happened?

17 A. And after awhile, on an elevation where there

18 were no houses or vehicles, they stopped the passenger

19 car and told me that they were doing it for money and

20 that they had been offered 20.000 German Marks. So if

21 I had 40.000 to give them, they would set me free. As

22 they were saying this, they tied my hands with a rope,

23 and over that rope they put an adhesive tape, brown,

24 three centimetres wide. On that same occasion they

25 also blindfolded me with that same tape.

Page 701

1 I said -- I mean, where on earth could I find

2 those 40.000 German Marks in cash? They said, "Well,

3 try to remember somebody with a telephone," and they

4 would talk to him over the mobile telephone, and if

5 that person brought the money, that they would then set

6 me free.

7 Q. Did anyone come to your mind that you could

8 call?

9 A. No, not at first, but then I remembered that

10 perhaps my cousin, my aunt's son, could perhaps find

11 that money, so that later on I told them that perhaps

12 they could call him.

13 Q. And this cousin of yours, where was he living

14 or physically located?

15 A. He lived in the village of Zlatina, near

16 Bosanski Samac.

17 Q. What was his name?

18 A. Stevo Tosic.

19 Q. Did you give these four men his name and

20 telephone number?

21 A. I did.

22 Q. After you had given them his name, what, if

23 anything, happened?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I'm going to repeat the question. After you

Page 702

1 gave the name and the telephone number, did anybody

2 call him?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Who made the call?

5 A. One of those four. I believe it was the

6 co-driver, the one who was sitting in front. I think

7 it was he. Then he gave me the -- he handed me over

8 the telephone and held me, because my hands were tied,

9 to bring the telephone to my ear and resume the

10 conversation with Tosic. I mean, they dialled the

11 number and I heard them say, "Hello. Good evening. Is

12 that Tosic? Your relative Stevan wants to talk to

13 you."

14 Q. What did you say to Mr. Tosic and what did he

15 say to you during that conversation?

16 A. I told him that I had been kidnapped and that

17 people who kidnapped me wanted 40.000 German Marks as

18 ransom. He said, "Where do you want me to find 40.000

19 marks overnight? Nobody has all that cash." I told

20 him that if he wanted to see me alive again, to try to

21 do that, to borrow those 40.000 from someone and then

22 try to bring them during the night or, rather, until

23 10.00 the next morning to bring it, because that's what

24 they said, that he should bring those 40.000 marks to a

25 petrol station near Belgrade by 10.00.

Page 703

1 Q. After the end of that conversation, what

2 happened next?

3 A. When I finished my conversation with Tosic,

4 they told him, "Well, do as Stevan as told you, and we

5 won't call you again. We'll see you tomorrow at

6 10.00." That is, that I would see him then.

7 Q. Then what happened?

8 A. And then we resumed the ride. After awhile

9 they stopped the vehicle and two of those four got off

10 that car; that is, only two stayed in the car with me.

11 Q. Could you, at that time, see the direction in

12 which you were travelling?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Approximately how much time passed from the

15 initial pounding on the door until this point?

16 A. Two and a half, three hours, perhaps.

17 Q. Did you ever consent to be held by these

18 first four, then two men, during these two and a half

19 to three hours?

20 A. No.

21 Q. After the two men left, did you stay in the

22 car?

23 A. Yes, throughout.

24 Q. After the two men left, did the car move?

25 A. Yes, the vehicle resumed the journey, but we

Page 704

1 stopped frequently, and when changing the direction.

2 And I also noticed they stopped at some place, and I

3 felt a very unpleasant odour, and they also commented,

4 said that it must be a garbage dump nearby, and I heard

5 the loud music from a restaurant. And we moved away

6 from that place and came back to it several times.

7 Q. For how long did you so drive?

8 A. For another hour, or maybe one and a half or

9 two, after that.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Brashich, during this

11 time, is he still blindfolded? I just would like to

12 find out.


14 Q. Would you describe your ability to move or to

15 see during this period of time?

16 A. I had this opaque tape over my eyes. To my

17 left, one individual was sitting to my left, and after

18 the two of those left, the back of the front seat was

19 lowered down. And in front, at the wheel, was the one

20 who was driving the vehicle. I could hear them talk

21 now and then.

22 Q. [Previous translation continues]

23 A. No, I couldn't see, nor I couldn't move. I

24 couldn't get off, because I was blocked.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Brashich, the last question

Page 705

1 was completely lost because you were speaking over the

2 interpretation. What was it? I think it was probably

3 "Did you see anything?"; the answer was, "No, I

4 couldn't see." But do you remember what your question

5 was?

6 MR. BRASHICH: "Did you" -- "Were you able to

7 see?" Your Honour.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Please wait until the

9 translation is over.


11 Q. When did you exit the car?

12 A. I got out of the car when they stopped it,

13 told me -- that is, got me by the -- by the hand and

14 pulled me out of the car.

15 Q. Once you exited the automobile, where did you

16 go, and how did you get there?

17 A. Two men got me by my two hands, and they

18 dragged me over a concrete or an asphalt pavement, and

19 then I felt that we were moving down a slope of some 20

20 to 30 metres long.

21 Q. You mentioned gravel. Can you be more

22 specific as to the type of gravel?

23 A. Well, gravel; those were stones, pebbles,

24 shingle that you find on the bank of a river or on the

25 seacoast; that kind of shingle or pebbles. And I could

Page 706

1 also feel the smell of the river, the smell of the

2 stale water, I mean the smell -- the kind that you feel

3 when you come close to a river.

4 Q. And what happened next? Where did you go?

5 A. After that, they ordered me to sit down, and

6 one held me whilst the other one was getting the boat

7 ready. I could hear twigs cracking, and some other --

8 and branches, and then they pulled me onto a small

9 boat.

10 Q. At that time, were you free to move around

11 and about?

12 A. No, I couldn't move about, because my hands

13 were tied; I was blindfolded. And while they were

14 preparing the boat, they also used that tape to

15 immobilise my arms and my legs and all over my body.

16 Q. Did you voluntarily get into that boat?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did the boat move?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. How was the boat propelled?

21 A. It did not have an engine, so they rowed.

22 Very quietly, so as not to be overheard.

23 Q. And how long were you in that boat?

24 A. Well, I was about 15 to 20 minutes in that

25 boat.

Page 707

1 Q. Did the boat reach land?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Once the boat reached land, what happened?

4 A. When the boat landed, they pulled me out of

5 the boat and loaded me into the boot of a passenger

6 vehicle.

7 Q. Did the vehicle move?

8 A. It did. I could hear the sound of the engine

9 when they switched it on, and so we rode for a while up

10 a slope and along a very winding route.

11 Q. Did the automobile come to a stop?

12 A. Yes, after 10 or 15 minutes.

13 Q. Once the automobile came to a stop, what

14 happened?

15 A. The engine was switched off, or rather the

16 car stopped, and I heard the sound of a manual radio,

17 and then I heard a conversation in English which I

18 couldn't follow.

19 Q. When you speak of a -- "manual radio" is the

20 translation in the transcript -- what do you mean?

21 What kind of manual radio?

22 A. It was a hand-held, the radio device that the

23 police usually use, and we also used them.

24 Q. So you were familiar with this particular

25 radio device?

Page 708

1 A. Why, yes, because it was a sound similar to

2 the one produced by a radio device.

3 Q. And the language spoken was English?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you speak or understand English?

6 A. No.

7 Q. What happened next?

8 A. Immediately after that, I heard the sound of

9 a helicopter blade.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Brashich, just let me be

11 clear. The language spoken was English; that's the

12 language coming from the radio as well as the language

13 spoken by the persons who were holding him?

14 MR. BRASHICH: Thank you, Your Honour. I

15 will clarify.

16 Q. When you were in the trunk of the car, and

17 when the radio was used, could you hear both the person

18 using the radio close to you as well as the person to

19 whom he was speaking?

20 A. Yes, I could hear directly both the persons

21 who were talking into the radio and the responses which

22 were coming to them through the radio speakers.

23 Q. The individual who was speaking next to the

24 car, in what language was he speaking?

25 A. English.

Page 709

1 Q. And the receiving language that you could

2 hear was in what language?

3 A. Also English.

4 Q. Now, you heard the helicopter blades --

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just one more question,

6 Mr. Brashich. I'd like to find out, how long did that

7 conversation last?


9 Q. Mr. Todorovic, how long did the radio

10 transmission, the two-way radio transmission, take?

11 A. Very briefly. Several minutes.

12 Q. Did a helicopter arrive on the scene?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You could not see at that time; right?

15 A. I could not see, but I could hear the sound.

16 It was very loud.

17 Q. What happened after the helicopter landed?

18 A. They opened the trunk, took me out of the

19 trunk, and led me for some 50 metres over a bumpy,

20 grassy terrain to the helicopter.

21 Q. Did you get in the helicopter?

22 A. They loaded me onto the helicopter. I did

23 not walk on to it.

24 Q. Did you voluntarily go into that helicopter?

25 A. No.

Page 710

1 Q. From the time you left the riverbank to the

2 time that the helicopter got there, did you voluntarily

3 stay in the trunk of the car?

4 A. No.

5 Q. From the time that you got to the riverbank

6 to the time that the helicopter arrived, did anybody

7 show you any identification?

8 A. No.

9 Q. From the time that you got to the riverbank

10 to the time the helicopter arrived, did anybody show

11 you a warrant of arrest or a court order?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Once you got -- well, you were put into the

14 helicopter. Did anyone say anything to you in the

15 helicopter?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did anyone identify themselves during the

18 helicopter ride?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Were you shown, during your helicopter ride,

21 any warrant of arrest or court order?

22 A. No.

23 Q. How long was your helicopter ride?

24 A. About 30 minutes.

25 Q. Once the helicopter landed, what happened?

Page 711

1 A. I was taken off the helicopter and taken

2 across some concrete asphalt surface, and I was brought

3 into a wooden structure, a prefabricated structure.

4 Q. At that point, when you entered that

5 structure, were you able to see?

6 A. No.

7 Q. What happened next?

8 A. Then my blindfold was taken off, and then

9 they cut the ties and the tape that my body was

10 bandaged with and I was put in plastic handcuffs.

11 Q. And there were people about you; right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And could you describe these individuals?

14 A. The first men whom I saw were wearing SFOR

15 uniforms.

16 Q. Was anything said to you at that time?

17 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Excuse me.

18 Mr. Brashich, could you ask the witness how did he know

19 that it was SFOR uniforms and that those were SFOR

20 uniforms? How did he know?


22 Q. At any time before September 26, 1998, did

23 you have an occasion to see SFOR uniforms?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. On how many occasions?

Page 712

1 A. On several occasions.

2 Q. So by September 26th, 1998, you were familiar

3 with the SFOR uniforms?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Was anything said to you at the time that

6 they cut the rope, took off the tape, and put plastic

7 handcuffs on you?

8 A. Yes. I was told that I was in the SFOR base

9 in Tuzla. They asked me whether I wanted to drink some

10 coffee. I declined. I had a drink of water and then I

11 was given a document to sign, and beforehand an

12 interpreter told me that -- said that anything I could

13 say could be used against me, and following that I

14 signed the document.

15 Q. At that time, were you being audio and

16 videotaped?

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Brashich, could you find

19 out what document he signed?


21 Q. You have just testified as to a document.

22 Was that document in the English or the Serbian

23 language?

24 A. This document was both in English and Serbian

25 languages, and the text of the document was that from

Page 713

1 here on, anything I would say could be used against me

2 and that I thereby acknowledge that this information

3 was given to me.

4 Q. Was any other document given to you at that

5 particular time?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Approximately what time in the morning did

8 you arrive at the Tuzla air force base?

9 A. About 2.00 in the morning.

10 Q. What happened thereafter?

11 A. After that, the commander came. He was

12 introduced to me as General Sinseki [phoen]. My

13 handcuffs came off and he sat me down across from him

14 and talked to me.

15 Q. Approximately what time of the morning was

16 that?

17 A. That was around 5.00, 5.30 in the morning.

18 Q. Could you tell us what General Sinseki

19 [phoen] said to you and what you said to him at that

20 5.00 a.m. meeting?

21 A. He asked me whether I knew how I arrived in

22 the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and I briefly

23 said that four unknown men had kidnapped me from Mount

24 Zlatibor. He asked me what Zlatibor was. I told him

25 that it was a tourist destination in Serbia, and that

Page 714

1 four unknown persons had kidnapped me, that they asked

2 money of a cousin of mine. And then calling upon his

3 officer's honour, I said -- since I was here -- whether

4 he could call my cousin and tell him not to go there in

5 order not to risk anything further and not to undergo

6 any further stress. And the General asked me what the

7 telephone number was, and I gave him the phone number,

8 and he said that he may call him.

9 Q. How long did this conversation take -- how

10 long was this conversation?

11 A. This conversation lasted about ten minutes.

12 The General also asked me what they should do in order

13 to catch Blagoje Simic, and I told him that I didn't

14 know what they were supposed to do in order to get

15 him.

16 Q. And Blagoje Simic is another defendant in

17 this case?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And he is the gentleman that has not been

20 arrested as of yet; right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did General Sinseki [phoen] exhibit any

23 papers to you?

24 A. No.

25 Q. What happened after he left?

Page 715

1 A. After he left, a doctor appeared and he

2 conducted a detailed examination, which was also taped

3 on camera.

4 Q. Was the interview with the General taped?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. After the doctor examined you -- by the way,

7 were you in any way hurt?

8 A. Yes. I had a head injury. I had a

9 laceration and I had some blood in my hair.

10 Q. Who did that to you?

11 A. I sustained this injury in the boat, when I

12 was put in a boat. I felt a powerful blow and for a

13 moment I lost consciousness, and I felt something wet

14 and I felt hot -- something wet and warm on my face and

15 my head.

16 Q. After the doctor left, who was the next

17 person that you saw after the --

18 MR. BRASHICH: Withdraw the question. Very

19 cumbersome, Your Honour.

20 Q. After the doctor left, did you meet any other

21 individual with regard to your detention?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And who was that?

24 A. The interpreter told me that this was an

25 officer of The Hague Tribunal, from the Prosecutor's

Page 716

1 Office of The Hague Tribunal.

2 Q. Approximately what time in the morning was

3 that?

4 A. This was sometime between 10.00 and 11.00 in

5 the morning.

6 Q. Can you describe him for us?

7 A. It was a man, 40 to 45 years, with light

8 brown hair.

9 Q. Was this meeting with the representative of

10 the ICTY audio and videotaped?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What did this representative say to you and

13 what did you say to him?

14 A. He told me that the ICTY had issued an

15 indictment against me, that they had a warrant for my

16 arrest, and that I would be transported to The Hague by

17 plane.

18 Q. Were you transported -- withdrawn.

19 Did he exhibit any documents to you at that

20 time?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What did he exhibit?

23 A. I don't know exactly. There were some

24 photographs there and there were several different

25 documents, including the indictment.

Page 717

1 Q. Did you travel to The Hague?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. When?

4 A. Sometime in the afternoon. We left around

5 1.00 or 2.00, and I arrived in The Hague in the early

6 hours of the evening.

7 Q. When you got to The Hague, where were you

8 lodged?

9 A. I was placed in the U.N. detention unit.

10 Q. And are you still there?

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. BRASHICH: No further questions, Your

13 Honour.

14 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]

15 Mr. Brashich, I have yet another question which I

16 should like the witness to answer. I believe that he

17 said that he had left Bosanski Samac in July 1998, and

18 I should like you to ask the witness why did he decide

19 to leave Bosanski Samac and move over to the Federal

20 Republic of Yugoslavia.


22 Q. Mr. Todorovic, you were born near Bosanski

23 Samac; right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And when you finished school, you became

Page 718

1 employed, after some time, in Bosanski Samac; right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What was the date that you moved from

4 Bosanski Samac to Rudine?

5 A. In January 1998.

6 Q. What was the purpose of your move from

7 Bosanski Samac to the village of Rudine?

8 A. I moved mostly because of the job

9 opportunity. I could make much more money working for

10 a private company, and I had some other business in

11 progress.

12 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]

13 Mr. Todorovic, did you receive any threats while in

14 Bosanski Samac? Did you feel under a threat in

15 Bosanski Samac?

16 A. Nobody threatened me in Bosanski Samac.

17 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 MR. BRASHICH: If that has clarified, Your

19 Honour, the Defence has no further questions of this

20 witness.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Niemann, I think we will

22 take the break now and return at 5 minutes after four,

23 and we will conclude at a quarter to five.

24 --- Recess taken at 3.55 p.m.

25 --- On resuming at 4:10 p.m.

Page 719

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Brashich, I thought it

2 was Mr. Niemann's turn. Yes?

3 MR. BRASHICH: During the break, I remembered

4 three direct questions that I forgot to ask. By your

5 leave?



8 Q. Mr. Todorovic, at any time, did you learn the

9 identity of the four individuals?

10 A. No.

11 Q. When you were in the trunk of the automobile,

12 on the other side of the river, did anybody besides the

13 four men touch you?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Who, and how?

16 A. I don't know who, but I felt, through that

17 tape, because a torch lamp was on, somebody had got me

18 by the chin and said, "Yes, that's him."

19 Q. Last question: During your conversation with

20 the general, besides what you have testified to

21 earlier, did he say anything else to you?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What did he say?

24 A. He said to me, "See? We can do whatever we

25 like."

Page 720

1 MR. BRASHICH: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Niemann?

3 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Cross-examined by Mr. Niemann:

5 Q. Mr. Todorovic, when you met the officer from

6 the Office of the Prosecutor of the Tribunal at 11.00

7 on the 27th of September, he informed you of your

8 rights; that's correct, isn't it?

9 A. I don't remember.

10 Q. He told you that a warrant was in existence?

11 A. He did.

12 Q. And that an indictment had been issued by the

13 Tribunal?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, did he beat you, or threaten you, or do

16 anything improper of that nature?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Was this the first time that you heard or saw

19 this person?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, I take it you weren't surprised to be

22 informed of the existence of the indictment.

23 A. No.

24 Q. Now, when you were put upon the helicopter,

25 you were blindfolded at that stage?

Page 721

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And in fact you were blindfolded for the

3 whole ride, through the period of time that you were on

4 the helicopter?

5 A. Yes, yes, during the whole ride by the

6 helicopter, yes.

7 Q. So you couldn't help us by telling us what --

8 or to whom the helicopter belonged?

9 A. I cannot say who it belonged to, but if it

10 landed at the American base in Tuzla, I don't know who

11 else's helicopter could land there. It had to belong

12 to them or somebody who was close to them.

13 Q. You said in your evidence that you had seen

14 people in SFOR uniforms on a number of occasions prior

15 to September 27th of 1998. Where had you seen these

16 people in SFOR uniforms?

17 A. The first I saw them on television, on a

18 television screen, and then I also had an opportunity

19 of seeing them on the road.

20 Q. And where on the road? In what part of the

21 country?

22 A. In Republika Srpska.

23 Q. Can you assist us, is there any particular

24 part in the Republika Srpska that you saw them?

25 A. Well, I used to see them between Banja Luka

Page 722

1 and Bijeljina, somewhere along the road.

2 Q. Now, you didn't see these people when you

3 were in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, did you?

4 A. I saw vehicles on one occasion near Zvornik,

5 by the Drina River; but otherwise, no, I did not see

6 them in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

7 Q. And you never encountered or met anyone in

8 the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia from the Office of

9 the Prosecutor of the Tribunal?

10 A. I don't remember.

11 Q. Now, the people that you say captured you

12 from your house in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

13 spoke in the Serbian language?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And they appeared to be familiar with where

16 they were going? You didn't hear any discussion about

17 directions, or anything of that sort, did you?

18 A. Well, they were not quite sure, not all the

19 time, because meanwhile they were discussing whether to

20 go to the left or to the right, and things like that.

21 Q. You don't recall them getting lost, or

22 anything of that nature?

23 A. I don't remember that they got lost at any

24 time, but I do know they stopped off and would return

25 in the opposite direction and get off the road and

Page 723

1 drive back and so on.

2 Q. Now, the civilian number plate that was on

3 the car that you observed, that was a civilian number

4 plate of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, or Serb?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you saw that between the time you were

7 taken from the house to the car?

8 A. Yes. Before they put me into the car. As I

9 was walking toward the car, I saw that.

10 Q. When did they put the blindfold over your

11 eyes? At what stage?

12 A. They blindfolded me when they got off the

13 highway between Podgorica and Belgrade, and perhaps

14 after an hour journey, at an elevation where there were

15 neither houses, nor people, nor vehicles. Nobody was

16 passing by, nor were there any inhabited houses

17 nearby.

18 Q. In answer to a question from His Honour, you

19 said that you left Bosanski Samac in January of 1998.

20 Is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Had you stayed in Bosanski Samac all of the

23 time, from, say, 1992 up until 1998, or had you been in

24 other places, lived in other places?

25 A. I lived in Bosanski Samac all the time.

Page 724

1 Q. Now, you say one of the reasons that you went

2 to the Federal Republic of Serbia was because of

3 employment opportunities. Do you remember saying

4 that?

5 A. Yes. Yes, yes.

6 Q. And you would agree with me, would you not,

7 that you also went there to avoid being arrested by

8 officers of the International Tribunal?

9 A. No.

10 Q. So that was not a matter that ever entered

11 your head when you moved from Bosanski Samac to

12 Serbia?

13 A. I didn't understand the question.

14 Q. It never occurred to you that it might be

15 advantageous for you to leave Bosnia and move to Serbia

16 in order to avoid being arrested on the indictment that

17 you knew had been issued against you?

18 A. I knew about the indictment, but that was not

19 the crucial, the decisive reason.

20 Q. I didn't ask you whether it was the only

21 reason; I just said it was one of the reasons. You'd

22 agree with me, would you not, that it was one of the

23 reasons why you went there?

24 A. Well, I wouldn't really know.

25 Q. Now, the money that was to be dropped off,

Page 725

1 the additional ransom money of 40.000 Deutschmarks,

2 that was to be dropped off, if it was paid, at a gas

3 station outside Belgrade?

4 A. Yes.

5 MR. NIEMANN: Excuse me, Your Honours.

6 Q. Now, knowing of the existence of the

7 indictment that had been issued by the Tribunal, why

8 didn't you turn yourself in to the authorities in

9 Tuzla?

10 MR. BRASHICH: Objection. Immaterial.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: The question is allowed.


14 Q. Would you answer my question, please?

15 A. Could you repeat it, please?

16 Q. By all means. Knowing of the existence of

17 the indictment that had been issued by the Tribunal

18 against you, why didn't you turn yourself in to the

19 authorities at either Tuzla or anywhere else in

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

21 A. I hadn't been finished all my private

22 affairs, things that I had to do. Perhaps I would have

23 turned myself in later on.

24 MR. NIEMANN: No further questions, Your

25 Honours.

Page 726

1 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Todorovic, you told us you

2 really wouldn't know whether one of the reasons for you

3 moving to Serbia was to avoid being arrested on this

4 indictment. You knew about it. Why is it that you

5 call Serbia or the Federal Republic a country of

6 refuge?

7 A. It was not a refuge. I basically went there

8 to work.

9 JUDGE HUNT: You understand, don't you, that

10 your application or one of your applications here is to

11 be returned to what is called your country of refuge;

12 that is, the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?

13 A. I do not fully understand the term "refuge."

14 JUDGE HUNT: I see. All right.

15 MR. BRASHICH: May I be heard, Your Honour?


17 MR. BRASHICH: The term "country of refuge,"

18 I don't think my client has even seen the term. I am

19 using it as a term of art which I have purloined from a

20 number of decisions. That is my phrase to explain a

21 legal concept, and not the witness's.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Any re-examination, Mr.

23 Brashich?

24 MR. PANTELIC: Sorry, Your Honours. Just a

25 small intervention. Maybe a problem with the term in

Page 727

1 the Serbian language, in these languages. May I have a

2 suggestion to the interpreters to use the word

3 "izbjeglistvo" instead of "utociste." There is a very

4 tiny difference between these two meanings of the same

5 word. [Interpretation] "Izbjeglistvo," in the sense of

6 a country where one goes when they feel threatened in

7 the country where they come from, either in the sense

8 of human rights or some other reasons. Thank you.

9 MR. BRASHICH: I would add to Mr. Pantelic's

10 Serbian explanation that a "izbjeglistvo" can also be

11 an economic -- an individual who has moved countries

12 for economic reasons.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Brashich, I think you

14 can make submissions later. Do you have any

15 re-examination?

16 MR. BRASHICH: No, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'd just like to ask the

18 witness.

19 Questioned by the Court:

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: In answer to Mr. Brashich,

21 you said the General said, "See, we can do whatever we

22 like." At what stage in the proceedings was that said,

23 or was it said in response to any particular comment or

24 observation that you had made?

25 A. General Sinseki [phoen] first asked me what

Page 728

1 he was to do in order to get to Blagoje Simic, and I

2 said that I didn't know. Then he said, "You see, we

3 can do whatever we want to do, whatever we set out to

4 do."

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Mr. Brashich,

6 you have other evidence, other witnesses?

7 MR. BRASHICH: For today, no, Your Honour.

8 As I had reported to the Registry, I have sent out my

9 investigator to contact the two witnesses that I

10 alluded to yesterday, and he was supposed to report

11 back to me today. I probably expect a message or a fax

12 at the hotel advising me of their availability.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: We have the possibility --

14 and the senior legal advisor can advise me on this -- I

15 think we have the possibility of continuing these

16 proceedings next week, Wednesday and Thursday. At any

17 rate, after the contempt -- after the conclusion of the

18 contempt proceedings. That may take two days. If it

19 runs into a third day, then it would be Thursday that

20 would be available to us. If they are concluded on

21 Tuesday, then Wednesday would be available to us.

22 We would have to advise you as to the precise

23 date when these proceedings would resume, but we would

24 expect at that time, Mr. Brashich, that you would be in

25 a position to call your witnesses, if you have them.

Page 729

1 Otherwise, I think we'll have to proceed to

2 submissions.

3 MR. BRASHICH: Your Honour, with regard to

4 the two witnesses, they are short, and knowing the

5 judicial time is short and dear, one of the things

6 which I was contemplating, I did not have a chance to

7 speak to my client about it, but I would tender a

8 stipulation to the Prosecution. Attached to it would

9 be a sworn declaration. I don't think that the issues

10 which these two witnesses will testify to is going to

11 be in any way -- well, that's one of the thoughts that

12 I had.

13 The second thing, Your Honour, if the Court

14 is gracious to leave me some time on Thursday, perhaps

15 in the meantime, if the Court has the time available to

16 address the motion that I filed this morning, because

17 should that evidence be allowed by the Chamber, then I

18 would request a subpoena or a judicial fiat producing

19 the three witnesses that I had requested, the

20 documentary evidence, and the tapes.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Brashich, we only just

23 received your motion shortly before this afternoon's

24 proceedings started. We're not in a position to

25 comment on it now. Indeed, I think the Prosecution is

Page 730

1 entitled to respond to it.

2 We will take the adjournment, and you will be

3 advised as to when the resumption will take place.

4 We'll take the adjournment now.

5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

6 at 4.35 p.m., sine die.