Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1228

1 Thursday, 28 February 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Wladimiroff.

7 MR. WLADIMIROFF: May it assist the Court to introduce to you that

8 I am assisted today by Ms. Gillian Higgins, barrister of the bar of

9 England and Wales. She has been appointed by the Registry to assist the

10 amici.

11 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Nice.

12 MR. NICE: Your Honour, before we continue with the evidence of

13 the witness, the Chamber sought the original of Exhibit 28 yesterday. I

14 obtained the original, as possessed by the ICTY, of that document from the

15 evidence unit. The arrangement between the evidence unit, the Registry

16 and the Chambers generally is that original exhibits, particularly of

17 documentary, are inspected and returned to the evidence unit because of

18 the problem with the same exhibit being required for different trials. I

19 trust that that will be the position that will obtain here, but in any

20 event, can I now make available for inspection --

21 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. We changed the Rules because of the

22 problems we had in an earlier case about that. That was the old practice.

23 The new practice, if you have a look at the Rules, is that the Registry

24 retains the exhibit. Perhaps you'd like to have a look at that.

25 MR. NICE: Your Honour, yes. If, having made this exhibit

Page 1229

1 available for inspection, inspection is all that is required, then the

2 exhibit can be returned. If it's required and necessary to be required

3 and retained, then of course it can be retained, but the practical

4 difficulties that were reflected in the earlier practice, and in the

5 general practice of using copy documents, is something that we'd ask you

6 to have in mind. But in any event, here is the original for inspection.

7 JUDGE MAY: Perhaps you'd like to look at Rule 41. No need to

8 deal with it now, but if you look at Rule 41, you'll see it's plainly the

9 responsibility of the Registry to keep the exhibits.

10 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'm aware of that and indeed I discussed

11 this this morning with the Registry's representative here, but as to this

12 particular exhibit, here is the original, and if I can make it available

13 to the Chamber, the Chamber can then make its decision as to what it

14 wishes particularly to do with this exhibit on this occasion.

15 It might be prudent to ask the witness to look at it first,

16 because it's a document that may itself be a photocopy but has original

17 signatures on it and then that can be explained to the Chamber.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes, if the witness sees it.


20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 Examined by Mr. Nice: [Continued]

22 Q. Now, this is an exhibit that we looked at yesterday in copy form.

23 Do you remember?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. The document before you has what appear to be original signatures

Page 1230

1 of yours in blue ink on the bottom of the first page.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. The document itself, it's perhaps not easy for me to know, perhaps

4 you can help us. It may be itself a photocopy or it may be an original.

5 Can you help us? Is it itself an original typed document or a written

6 document or is it itself a photocopy?

7 A. It's an original document.

8 Q. Can you explain, then, please, why it has your signature on it in

9 a different colour ink and how you came to have possession of it and so on

10 and hand it to the ICTY investigators.

11 A. This document was found in the place where the police were

12 stationed and the paramilitaries in the village of Frasher i Madh near

13 Mitrovica and, for this reason, I signed it on the bottom to show that

14 this document is mine and was found in the place I mentioned.

15 Q. And did you hand that document to the ICTY investigators?

16 A. When I signed this document, I gave this to the investigator who

17 was in Mitrovica and took a statement from me.

18 Q. Thank you very much.

19 MR. NICE: Can that now be handed to the Judges, please.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes, we've seen that. Let the amici see it and also

22 the accused.

23 Yes.

24 MR. NICE: There were two other lists that I must deal with. One

25 was a list that the witness referred to which fell in the same category as

Page 1231

1 a list that the Chamber suggested would not be helpful, namely, provision

2 of information by others, so I shan't produce that list although it's now

3 available in translation.

4 The Chamber will recall the witness spoke of the 23 intellectuals,

5 who he dealt with in paragraph 11. There is a list of their names, and

6 I'd ask the witness please to look at the following exhibit which comes in

7 original and translation.

8 If the usher could put the original, or the version in the

9 original language on the overhead projector, please, so that the -- thank

10 you very much.

11 Q. We can see in this document that the list of 23 names is contained

12 within a report of some kind. Did you prepare this report yourself?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. When preparing that report, how were you able to give the 23 names

15 that you've listed there?

16 A. First, I talked with -- I talked with witness Xhafer Bajrami, who

17 escaped from this incident, and then I went to the village of Morine in

18 Skenderaj municipality in which, of this family, there are -- there were

19 12 members of this family, and I talked to them. And I went to Llaushe.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MR. NICE: If the usher could assist, please, by putting the

22 English version on the overhead projector, which covers only the relevant

23 part of the report, and the relevant part of the report, preceding the

24 listing of the 23 names, reads: "On April 19, 1999, at about 8.00 hours

25 in the village of Dreth, municipality of Zubin Potok, 23 Albanians were

Page 1232

1 arrested by the Serb army. Among them was my brother, Zahid Barani, (age

2 38), my brother-in-law Hasan Dervare (age 40), and ever since, their fate

3 remains unknown."

4 Q. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes, it's true.

6 MR. NICE: May that be an exhibit, please?

7 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 29.

8 MR. NICE: Thank you. And I turn to the outstanding matters in

9 this witness's summary, starting at paragraph 14.

10 Q. I want you to help, please, with your knowledge and experience of

11 the KLA in the areas where you were at the relevant times. First of all,

12 in November 1997, at Skenderaj, at a funeral, did you see something of the

13 KLA?

14 A. It wasn't the 27th but the -- 27th, it was the 28th of November,

15 1997. I was personally at this funeral where there was Adem Nuraj,

16 chairman of the Council for the Protection of Human Rights and Freedoms in

17 Mitrovica.

18 Q. And the presence of the KLA there, in what form or what numbers?

19 A. According to the statement of Dr. Adem Nuraj, while Halit

20 Geci, the teacher who was killed two days before by Serbian forces, while

21 he was being buried, three soldiers of the KLA appeared, masked, in front

22 of the assembled people.

23 Q. Moving on to February 1998 at Likoshan and Qirez, was there, to

24 your knowledge, presence of the KLA?

25 A. At the time when these murders took place, I'm not aware that

Page 1233

1 there were KLA soldiers in Likoshan and Qirez.

2 Q. And tell us about your own involvement there. Did you attempt to

3 reach those villages?

4 A. Yes. I tried on the 2nd of March to enter the village of Qirez,

5 but it was no use because it was blockaded by the army and the police and

6 tanks and armoured vehicles of the Serbian army.

7 Q. Upon your return, what, if anything, did you encounter? Who did

8 you encounter?

9 A. At the village -- at the wood of the village of Krushevc, near the

10 road, there was a car that had stopped and there were three people in it

11 in the uniforms of the KLA.

12 Q. Moving on to September 1998, do the names Jusufi and Ahmet,

13 associated with KLA ...

14 A. Yes. Both of them were commanders of the KLA in the Shala zone.

15 The first, commander for logistics; and the second was the army commander.

16 Q. Did you have meetings or dealings with them, and if so, what

17 about?

18 A. I met them, and this was an official visit, an official meeting.

19 The first official meeting with the KLA commander. This happened after

20 the offensive undertaken on 15, 16, and 17 of September 1998, when in the

21 villages of Shala e Bajgores, in Mitrovica municipality, 16 Albanians were

22 killed. Except for one who was elderly, there were elderly women among

23 them.

24 The houses of many villages were partly burned. All their

25 livestock in the fields were killed.

Page 1234

1 Q. [Previous translation continues]... go into those details because

2 I want to know about your contacts with the KLA at the moment. Your

3 contacts with the KLA was in relation to what and in what effect?

4 A. After the offensive, I went specifically to look at the situation

5 and to make recordings and take photographs and to take notes from people

6 who had been in these villages. However, unfortunately, no civilian had

7 been among the villages. They had all been forcibly expelled. I met

8 Xhevat Jusufi, logistics commander for the KLA in the village of Bare. I

9 started to receive information from him about the situation and about what

10 had happened and how.

11 Q. I suppose you can answer more questions about that if asked.

12 Typically, when there had been attacks on Albanian villages, did you see

13 members of the KLA afterwards?

14 A. I saw the army after the offensives, when I went to these

15 villages.

16 Q. Were you aware of a KLA presence anywhere close to Mitrovica,

17 particularly in the area of Vaganice?

18 A. I'm sorry, the question is not clear, and the last question

19 doesn't have anything to do with my testimony.

20 Q. Let's go back to Vaganice, is that a village near to Mitrovica?

21 A. The village of Vaganice is the village closest to Mitrovica, about

22 three kilometres away.

23 Q. Were you aware of any KLA presence in that village?

24 A. Yes, there was.

25 Q. For what period of time, if you can help us.

Page 1235

1 A. In September 1998, from the 22nd to the 29th, the army and police

2 and paramilitaries, Serbian forces, undertook an offensive in which 36

3 Albanians were killed. Fourteen of them were killed with hammers in the

4 village of Vushtrine commune in village of Galice. This is according to

5 witnesses that -- from members of their families. And after the 29th of

6 September, I went through all these villages, and as soon as I entered the

7 village of Vaganice, I came across members of the KLA.

8 And then many times on subsequent occasions, whenever I went to

9 these areas, I met soldiers of the KLA.

10 Q. Was there an occasion in 1998 when you were involved with two

11 European Community observers in negotiations for the release of three

12 Serbs in Polac?

13 A. Yes. This was an occasion, not three Serbs but two Serbs, in the

14 village of Polac in Skenderaj municipality. I went with two EU observers

15 who were stationed in Zhabar, and we went with the intention of securing

16 the release of two Serbs arrested by the KLA.

17 Q. Were they indeed released?

18 A. After three days of talks and a contact with Adem Demaci, the

19 political representative of the KLA, we succeeded in releasing the two

20 Serbs.

21 Q. Were you aware at this time, 1998, of any KLA members being active

22 in the town of Mitrovica itself?

23 A. No.

24 Q. But as the conflict developed and it maybe deepened, what was your

25 appreciation of the KLA? Was it constant? Did it increase? Did it

Page 1236

1 decrease? Just tell us.

2 A. After the offensives and the massacres of Albanians at the hands

3 of the Serbian army, police, paramilitaries, and civilians, the ranks of

4 the KLA grew from day-to-day so that people could defend themselves who

5 were faced with extermination.

6 Q. Were you aware -- first of all just yes or no: Were you aware of

7 incidents where the KLA accepted responsibility for attacks on Serbian

8 forces?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What was your source of information about such attacks?

11 A. As for these attacks, my source was the media in which there were

12 statements in which the KLA accepted responsibility for such cases.

13 Q. Yes. I now turn to NATO bombing. What effect -- I want you to

14 help us about what effect did NATO bombing have? First of all, what

15 effect, if any, did it appear to have on the conduct of the Serbs in

16 relation to Kosovar residents?

17 A. After the NATO bombing started on the 24th of March, 1999, many

18 parts of Kosovo, especially Drenica, very strict and harsh offensives were

19 undertaken by the Serbian military, police, and paramilitaries where many

20 Albanians were killed irrespective of their age or gender, or sex. If

21 need be, I can mention the case of Izbica.

22 Q. Well, at the moment, generality will do. As to Izbica, were you

23 there yourself or is this something you learned of from others?

24 A. About this case, I learned from others, but then I went there and

25 I counted all the corpses, not only in Izbica but in several villages

Page 1237

1 around that.

2 Q. I shan't trouble you for the detail of that at the moment, in any

3 event.

4 Staying with NATO bombing, did you yourself see and hear the

5 bombing?

6 A. Yes, very often I saw for myself.

7 Q. In particular, did you see something of bombing at a warehouse of

8 the VJ?

9 A. Yes. About 13 or 14th of April, 1999, I was at a field in the --

10 in the Vinarc i Poshtem village of Mitrovica, and I saw the NATO planes

11 bombing the depots of the Yugoslav army in the village of Frasher in

12 Mitrovica. The depots were very close to the Bair neighbourhood.

13 Q. Thank you very much.

14 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I've finished but for one detail I may

15 wish to deal with with this witness. Yes. I wonder if the witness could

16 just -- it's backtracking but it's something I ought to deal with.

17 Exhibit 27, please. And the original is all that I require; I don't

18 require the English translation.

19 Q. Can we look at number 21 on the list, please. Now, you told us

20 yesterday of this being your name on the list. How do you spell your

21 name, first all, in the Latin alphabet?

22 A. My name is Halit Barani.

23 Q. Is that with an E or with an A?

24 A. With A. The Serbs all the time change the A into E and pronounced

25 my name as Barani.

Page 1238

1 Q. Thank you very much.

2 MR. NICE: Yes, that's all I ask of this witness.

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] At one point, the Prosecutor

5 yesterday cautioned that if anybody had any objections, they should raise

6 them straightaway. I wish to say first and foremost I object to

7 everything that this witness is saying. And before I move on to my

8 questions, I would like to warn the public that all subsequent questions

9 that we heard from the Prosecutor this morning, including the mentioning

10 of Vaganice --

11 JUDGE MAY: You are not here to warn the public. You are

12 cross-examining this witness. Now, would you kindly ask the first

13 question, please, Mr. Milosevic.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Then I would like to draw your

15 attention to the fact that everything I talked about with my associates

16 over the telephone in the afternoon and during the night, that these are

17 all the things that were mentioned this morning by the Prosecutor in his

18 question. Of course, slightly distorted. Vaganice and his contacts with

19 the KLA and the bombing of Bair, and many other details. And this abuse

20 of my communications by the Prosecutor is something that I believe you are

21 duty-bound to investigate, because he could not have thought of all of

22 this on his own.

23 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, have you been listening to these

24 communications?

25 MR. NICE: I, of course, have no access --

Page 1239

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

2 MR. NICE: I, of course, have no access to the communications of

3 this accused, and if the accused had taken the opportunity to consider the

4 summary that has been served on him for his assistance, he would have

5 found yesterday, before the date of the alleged phone calls, he would have

6 discovered that all the matters touched on in evidence by this witness

7 this morning were dealt with in that summary, served in advance on the

8 accused yesterday.

9 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [no interpretation].

11 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, the Chamber considers what you've said.

12 Counsel is right. The matters you refer to were all foreshadowed in the

13 summary which was served yesterday. Before you make wild allegations of

14 that sort, you should have some sort of evidence for it.

15 Now, can we begin the cross-examination?

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Extreme untruths are being mentioned

17 here, so that's why I have to bring up such examples.

18 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

19 Q. [Interpretation] You used to sell tobacco. That was a question,

20 wasn't it?

21 A. Yes. I sold tobacco in the -- as part of the enterprise Dum of

22 Pristina.

23 Q. During the war, you had a kiosk at the bus station in Mitrovica,

24 right?

25 A. During the war, I didn't have a kiosk, and I did not work at all.

Page 1240

1 Q. You have Blerim and Xhevdet as your cousins; right?

2 A. Yes, they're cousins of mine.

3 Q. Yes. Do you know that they are the main drug dealers in

4 Mitrovica?

5 A. I know them well because they are cousins of mine, and I don't

6 believe that they do such a thing.

7 Q. What about Azem Barani, your relative? Are you aware that he fled

8 to Turkey after having raped a pupil of the secondary medical school?

9 A. Yes, I know.

10 Q. And do you know that Nuhri Barani, another relative of yours, is

11 selling drugs in Germany?

12 A. Nuhri is a cousin of mine. I know that he is abroad, but I don't

13 know what he does there.

14 Q. Do you live in the neighbourhood of Tamnik of Mitrovica?

15 A. I live in the Ilirida neighbourhood, formerly Tavnik, of

16 Mitrovica.

17 Q. Are you aware that Tamnik was the centre of the KLA, this entire

18 neighbourhood in Mitrovica?

19 A. I know that this is not true.

20 Q. And do you know how many warehouses of ammunition and weapons of

21 the KLA were discovered in Tamnik, in that same neighbourhood of Tamnik?

22 A. I have no knowledge of any discovery of this kind, and if you know

23 that, tell us when it happened.

24 Q. This happened prior to the aggression several times, precisely in

25 those events that you describe as the army having attacked innocent

Page 1241

1 civilians, and the army was actually searching these warehouses and

2 discovering ammunition and weapons and even a concealed hospital in this

3 neighbourhood of yours in Tamnik, because the problem is here that every

4 conflict between the army and police with the KLA you treat as an attack

5 of the army and police against Albanian civilians.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness asked me and I answered

7 him.

8 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. The first question is this: Was there

9 a concealed KLA hospital in Tavnik?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the Ilirida neighbourhood,

11 formerly Tavnik, there were no hospitals, but there was the state

12 ambulance.

13 JUDGE MAY: The second question was this: It's alleged that

14 you've treated every conflict between the army and police with the KLA as

15 an attack by the army on Albanian civilians. Is that right or not?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, this is not true. It doesn't

17 stand to facts.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Are you linked with the killing at the bus station on the day of

20 St. George, that is, the 6th of May 1998, when a policeman was killed,

21 Darko Nikolic, and then Darko Ivaz, another policeman, and then Joca

22 Jovic, also a policeman was wounded? This was a terrorist attack, as you

23 recall. And they link your name to this terrorist attack. What have you

24 had to do with that terrorist attack?

25 A. I know very well this case, and it was not a terrorist attack, but

Page 1242

1 the Serb police attacked Jashari in the street after they tried to raid

2 his place, and then he fired in defence and then he was killed. But I

3 have no connection with this killing except for the following day. The

4 following day, I said, I went to the scene of the killing. I photographed

5 the scene. I took notes without knowing who was involved. Later, I

6 understood that the student Hartim Jashari was killed, and I took part in

7 his funeral.

8 Q. So at the bus station, where two policemen were killed and one

9 policeman was seriously wounded, you claim that it was the police that

10 attacked this terrorist Hartim Jashari.

11 A. I said that they tried to -- to raid him, and he happened to be

12 carrying a weapon and fired, and later he was wounded and died of his

13 wounds.

14 It's outside any kind of reason that a person, a single

15 individual, can attack a truck of the police.

16 Q. So you believe that when the police approaches someone at a bus

17 station, asking him to show his ID, that this is an attack and therefore

18 he has the right to kill a policeman; right?

19 A. It did not happen at the bus station but outside the bus station.

20 Q. Near the bus station. All right, near the bus station. What is

21 the difference anyway?

22 A. There is a difference, because it's not at the bus station but it

23 was outside the bus station. If it were to happen in the bus station,

24 that would be different.

25 Q. In what sense would it have been different?

Page 1243

1 A. At the bus station, many Albanians have been searched very often

2 and there has been no single incident like this. But on the night when

3 this incident happened, Hartim, according to the witnesses, was on his

4 own, was alone. He was not accompanied by anyone but he was on his way

5 home. And he knew that if he were to be arrested, he would be gaoled, and

6 in order to escape the situation, he fired his gun.

7 Q. And killed three policemen.

8 A. On this occasion, I know that there was one killed and two

9 injured. This is original -- my original evidence which I got on the 6th

10 of May.

11 Q. Darko Nikolic and Darko Ivaz were killed and Jom Surjoric [phoen]

12 was wounded. I have already said that. Two were killed, one was wounded.

13 Do you consider this to be a terrorist attack, this -- that Hartim Jashari

14 did?

15 JUDGE MAY: No. He's given his account of the matter.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. He is the son of Bislim Jashari, who you mentioned, and the cousin

18 of Adem Jashari; is that right?

19 A. No, he is not, but the nephew of Bislim Jashari and is a cousin of

20 Adem Jashari. Hartim Jashari was born and brought up in the Ilirida

21 neighbourhood of Mitrovica.

22 Q. After this incident, you went to the village of Vrnjica. That is

23 Vaganica, to the KLA base there. That is what you talked about a few

24 minutes ago. Is that correct?

25 A. This is not true. This is a lie of the person you have taken the

Page 1244

1 information from.

2 Q. A minute ago you said to the Prosecutor that you were in Vaganice.

3 Now you're saying that it's a lie that you were in Vaganice.

4 A. I was there. But you shouldn't link Vaganice with Jashari. I've

5 been to Vaganice often but not on that occasion.

6 Q. I am linking the two because I'm asking you whether you fled there

7 because you were involved in this killing. Just give me an answer, yes or

8 no.

9 A. This is not true. I can't say yes or no. I need an explanation,

10 because when I took the notes, I went to my office and then I prepared a

11 report, a daily report, which I submitted to the information media and

12 have with me the copy, the original copy of that report. When I say about

13 information, I mean I have daily reports about everything that happened

14 over a period of three years, with the dates, the place where everything

15 happened, and the circumstances in which it happened.

16 Q. Are you one of the founders of the KLA in Kosovska Mitrovica?

17 A. This is not true either, because I was not and I am not one of the

18 founders.

19 Q. In Tamnik, you held meetings in the organisation of the OVK at an

20 elementary school called the 25th of May. This is in your neighbourhood.

21 This is close to where you live. Is that correct or not?

22 A. This is not true, and there is no military school in Ilirida,

23 formerly Tavnik.

24 And if the accused knows when that meeting took place, please, I

25 kindly ask him to say that and then I'll say whether that's true or not.

Page 1245

1 JUDGE MAY: We'll get on more quickly -- this may take some time,

2 but Mr. Barani, we'll get on more quickly if you just answer the questions

3 shortly and don't argue with the accused. Just answer the questions.

4 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have heard this. Perhaps there is

6 a misinterpretation. The answer is that there is no military school,

7 however, I did not mention any military school. I said elementary school.

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes. It doesn't matter about the school. He said

9 that he didn't attend any meetings.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. In Vaganice, he met the commanders Ismet Hoxha, who is also the

12 murderer of a policeman, of the policeman called Dejan Prica; is that

13 correct?

14 A. I met many KLA commanders and soldiers, and the case you are

15 referring to, I don't know anything about it.

16 Q. Did you meet with Ismet Hoxha, though?

17 A. I have met him -- I have seen him often, him and many other KLA

18 soldiers, when I passed through Vaganice village.

19 Q. All right. So you did meet with Ismet Hoxha.

20 A. I said I have met many KLA soldiers in every time I left Mitrovica

21 town.

22 Q. In Vaganice itself, was Dibrani Jetullah the commander?

23 A. Yes. Jetullah Dibrani was KLA commander for Vaganice units.

24 Q. Did you meet with him often?

25 A. Several times when I passed through, but I don't need to answer

Page 1246

1 the same questions because I already explained that. I told you that

2 every time I left Mitrovica, I met him soldiers and commanders of the KLA.

3 Q. There's a picture also with them, a picture of you, a photograph

4 taken of you and them together there in the village.

5 A. What kind of photo are you talking about?

6 Q. You and, for example, these commanders, Jetullah or somebody else

7 in Vaganice. I'm talking about these photographs when you said that you

8 passed by them.

9 A. It is possible. I have many photographs. But after the war, when

10 we took pictures in various meetings in Mitrovica and outside Mitrovica,

11 yes.

12 Q. There's another commander there, Kurt Jerkin?

13 A. This is an unfamiliar name.

14 Q. Did you attend -- or rather, just give a yes or no answer because

15 my claim is that you did attend this. Did you attend a drill by the KLA

16 that was held in the village of Bare as to how Serbian houses should be

17 ransacked and how police stations should be attacked and how terrorist

18 actions should be carried out? So this was a drill, a display in the

19 village of Bare, and you attended it.

20 A. This is not true. It was not a drill to loot and raid Serbian

21 houses, but it was a celebration of the 28th of November, the day of the

22 Albanian national flag. And I was there to see how things were going.

23 The date was a celebration, and I stayed there for four hours in

24 succession.

25 Q. So then these KLA units did not display any such thing, did not

Page 1247

1 carry out any such drill?

2 A. No, it's not true. They simply demonstrated their own drill but

3 not the drill that you are speaking here.

4 Q. And what is the drill that they presented on that day, on the

5 28th, the date that you were there? Could you explain this, what kind of

6 a drill this was?

7 A. I told you, it was a day of celebration, and there were various

8 kinds of games being played, songs and dances.

9 Q. But you said awhile ago that they demonstrated their own drills,

10 not terrorist activities. What kind of demonstration of their own

11 activities was this?

12 JUDGE MAY: Was there any demonstration of KLA activities?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there was, on a stage, because

14 it was a culture manifestation.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. A moment ago, you said, and I was listening with my own ears, that

17 they were just demonstrating their own drills of the KLA.

18 A. I said and I am saying again, I cannot deny that. We don't need

19 to go over this issue again, because it was a drill, I mean, by them

20 performed on stage in honour of the culture performances put up for the

21 28th of November, the national flag day.

22 Q. All right. Let's move on. Yesterday in this courtroom, you named

23 several of your neighbours, Serbs.

24 A. Yesterday I mentioned many names of Serbs but only one name of a

25 neighbour of mine; Momcilo Kokoric.

Page 1248

1 Q. I heard you mention several. You stated several first and last

2 names of Serbs who were your neighbours, and you said that they were the

3 perpetrators of some crimes.

4 A. The names I mentioned, they were never my neighbours. Kokoric was

5 my neighbour. This is what I said. The others have never been my

6 neighbours.

7 Q. But you knew them. They lived there in your neighbourhood; is

8 that right?

9 A. No. Dejan Savic is from Vushtrri by Bula e Vushtrri [phoen],

10 Dragan Juric lived in Zacan [phoen], Zarko Kosovac lived in Dibri [phoen]

11 neighbourhood. Ratko Antonijevic had his house in Ilirida neighbourhood

12 but very far from where I lived because Ilirida has over 10.000

13 inhabitants, is the largest neighbourhood of the Mitrovica municipality.

14 Q. Yes. Tamnik is the largest neighbourhood in Mitrovica, and that

15 is why it was chosen to be the main centre for the KLA.

16 JUDGE MAY: You've already dealt with that. Now let's move on.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. As far as I know, all the houses of these people were looted and

19 set fire to in Mitrovica, the ones that you mentioned. Is that true or

20 not?

21 A. No, it is not true. The houses of my neighbours, none of them is

22 burned. They are intact.

23 Q. Those were just the ones that were forcibly taken over. Yes or

24 no.

25 A. No, they were not taken over forcibly.

Page 1249

1 Q. Are they empty now, then?

2 A. No, they are not empty. Albanian families live in them whose

3 houses have been burned down.

4 Q. And did the owners of these houses let these people live there and

5 occupy their houses?

6 A. One of them, I'm talking about my neighbours, has sold his house,

7 and it was bought by an Albanian neighbour now. The three others, I don't

8 know about what the situation really is.

9 Q. All right. You say you don't know. Very well. You composed

10 lists of Serbs to be liquidated and stuck them up in the library and the

11 Adriatic Hotel. Yes or no.

12 A. No, this is not true. And I don't know who has -- who may have

13 drafted this list.

14 Q. But you stuck them up on the library building and the Adriatic

15 Hotel; is that right?

16 A. No, this is not true. In the library, I have an exhibition with

17 photos of massacred Albanians, and I've put them -- next to the photos, I

18 put the names of the perpetrators.

19 Q. How do you know who the perpetrators are?

20 A. Yesterday I mentioned the names. I don't know what you have

21 heard. You saw the lists yourself. I don't need to go to any further

22 lengths.

23 Q. You mentioned names that you had heard of. Is that sufficient?

24 Is that enough for you to condemn people and stick up their names as the

25 names of killers?

Page 1250

1 A. This is not true. All the names that I have, I have evidence to

2 prove the guilt, and I am also one of the eyewitnesses.

3 Q. And you consider that you have the right to judge?

4 JUDGE MAY: That's just a comment. He's told you what he did.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's not, it's a question.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Do you consider that you have the right to judge?

8 JUDGE MAY: No, that's not a proper question. He's told us what

9 he did, and he's told us why he did it.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Let me move on to my

11 next question then. I'm moving on. It doesn't matter, if you want me to

12 skip over some of these, I will.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Do you know a policeman called Lulezim Ademi? An Albanian,

15 A. Yes, I know Lulezim Ademi very well.

16 Q. On two occasions, the KLA shot at him in 1998, intending to kill

17 him. Do you know that?

18 A. No, this is not true that the KLA has shot him. I know of one

19 case, and I can tell you how it happened. It was in a cafeteria where

20 they were drinking, and after a fight, one of them fired a pistol and a

21 local inhabitant was killed from Ura e Gjakut neighbourhood, and he's in

22 prison now for that.

23 Q. And how do you make the connection between what you've just said

24 and the fact that the father of Lulezim Ademi, the policeman who was shot

25 at, who was a forester, was killed by the KLA?

Page 1251

1 A. What do you mean? Who was killed by KLA? I'm not clear.

2 Q. Lulezim Ademi's father, he was a forester, the father.

3 A. He was a forester, but it's not true that he was killed. He's

4 alive and he lives in Dragonica village of Mitrovica municipality. His

5 name is Mehmed, his father Adem, and his last name Ademi.

6 Q. And what about the brother named Skender, who was abducted? Do

7 you know anything about that?

8 A. I know that he's in the list of the people who have disappeared.

9 When I say in the list, I mean the list of the Council for the Protection

10 of Human Rights and Freedoms in Mitrovica.

11 Q. In what capacity was his name on that list?

12 A. It is in the list of the disappeared, as a person whose destiny is

13 not known.

14 Q. Well, that's what I'm claiming. You mentioned Shala on several

15 occasions. Now, that area of Shala is the Operative Zone of the KLA which

16 comprises Kosovska Mitrovica, too, and my question is the following --

17 JUDGE MAY: Ask him if it was, as you suggest, the Operative Zone,

18 as you put it, of the KLA, Shala.

19 Can you help us to that, Mr. Barani?

20 Just a moment. Just a moment.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not clear. I'm sorry.

22 JUDGE MAY: It's suggested that Shala was the Operative Zone of

23 the KLA, which comprised Kosovska Mitrovica. Is that right or not, or

24 don't you know?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it's true.

Page 1252


2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. So the Operative Zone of Shala, that is to say, Shala is the

4 Operative Zone of the KLA, and it comprised Kosovska Mitrovica, didn't it?

5 And along the Albanian border. So -- and then we have the Dukadjin

6 Operative Zone along the Albanian border, including Djakovica and Pec.

7 And then furthermore, we have the Pastrik Operative Zone, which is Prizren

8 Orahovac and that particular region. The Drenica Operative Zone is the

9 other one.

10 JUDGE MAY: Do you know about any of these others, other Operative

11 Zones as alleged?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can answer and I can tell you what

13 you are interested in regarding the Mitrovica municipality.

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes. But what do you know about any of the others?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have heard and -- because it was

16 often -- it came up often in the information media outlets.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. All right. I don't want to go on enumerating the Operative Zone

19 Lab, which is Pristina, Nerodimlje and so on and so forth, but let's go

20 back to Shala. You went to the Operative Zone of Shala and took pictures

21 of the military exercises in Shala, or monitored.

22 A. No, that's not true.

23 Q. All right. Let's go back to your particular neighbourhood, the

24 neighbourhood of Tamnik. In Tamnik in April 1999, when tens of houses

25 were discovered with ammunition storages and the hospital itself, there

Page 1253

1 was fighting in the Tamnik neighbourhood itself. Do you remember that?

2 A. Regarding the ammunition depots, that's not true. Regarding the

3 fighting, in April when the entire population of the neighbourhood was

4 gathered, where all the inhabitants of Mitrovica were, they were driven to

5 Zhabar fields, the males were separated from the females and got on

6 trucks, then some members of the KLA came and started to fire in order to

7 save the parents from -- with their children and the population in general

8 from what was happening.

9 Q. All right. You claim that there was no fighting, that it was the

10 police and army that attacked the innocent civilians. Am I reading you

11 correctly?

12 A. Can you please ask me again the question?

13 Q. You claim that in April, in Tamnik there was no fighting at all

14 between the army and the police on the one side and the KLA on the other

15 but that what was happening in fact was that there was an attack launched

16 on innocent civilians. Is that what you're saying? Is that what you

17 claim?

18 A. I'm repeating that no fighting took place in the neighbourhood but

19 in the Zhabar fields in lower Mitrovica.

20 Q. And who was the fighting between in Zhabar in Donja Mitrovica?

21 Between whom?

22 A. I didn't say that there was fighting, but when all the population,

23 the Albanian population was gathered there by the Serb police and army in

24 the Zhabar fields, they separated males from females, and the males they

25 put on trucks and then, in some surrounding villages, from some

Page 1254

1 surrounding houses in Zhabar, fire shots were heard. And these fire shots

2 came from some members of the KLA and they aimed to scare the police and

3 to make them withdraw and let the population alone and not massacre them.

4 Q. So you're claiming that the KLA shot to frighten the police and

5 the army. Is that it?

6 A. Yes, that's right, because nobody was injured or killed. There

7 were no casualties then.

8 Q. And I can tell you that in Tamnik, in that fighting, I have a

9 name, Nejbosa Kocic, a soldier from Belgrade, he lost his life and a large

10 number of soldiers were wounded. Do you happen to be aware of that fact?

11 A. I do not know of this case.

12 Q. And do you know that he was killed in Tamnik where you say that

13 nobody did any shooting?

14 A. Which day do you mean? And then I can reply.

15 Q. I'm talking about April 1999. That was one particular operation

16 when the army and the police took over the warehouses of the ammunition

17 belonging to the KLA, and when it came into conflict with the KLA in

18 Tamnik in April 1999, a number of soldiers were wounded and Nejbosa

19 Kostic, a soldier from Belgrade, was killed in those operations. That's

20 what I'm talking about.

21 A. On the case on which I was talking about when the population were

22 gathered together, there were no casualties at all. I don't know about

23 other cases.

24 Q. At Bajgora, the Shala Operative Zone with two brigades had

25 approximately 4.000 KLA fighters. Is that correct or not?

Page 1255

1 A. I don't know the numbers of the KLA in any zone.

2 Q. And do you have an idea as to how many there might have been?

3 Because you have submitted a great deal of information. So do you have

4 any idea of how many KLA fighters there were in the Shala Operative Zone,

5 for instance?

6 A. I know that there were a lot, and I mentioned before that, after

7 the massacres that were committed, those who had weapons - I mean the

8 Albanians - joined the KLA en masse so as to be able to defend their own

9 population from complete extermination.

10 Q. And who was it that wanted to exterminate their own population?

11 A. It was the Serbian police and paramilitaries and the army who

12 wished to exterminate the Albanian people, who were not the population of

13 Serbia.

14 Q. Do you consider that the population is the same as the KLA? Do

15 you think the two are the same?

16 A. The KLA came forth from out of the people so the people could

17 defend -- people could defend their own mothers, fathers, and sisters.

18 Q. And how many KLA terrorist attacks do you know of, concrete ones

19 that you have knowledge of directly?

20 A. When you say "terrorist attacks," I am not clear which attacks you

21 call terrorist.

22 Q. Well, for example, when three men come and shoot down a whole cafe

23 full of children. I consider that to be a terrorist attack. Or when they

24 shoot at a vehicle belonging to the Red Cross, for example, or a

25 diplomatic vehicle belonging to an observer, or a car belonging to

Page 1256

1 journalists, or when they kill civilians, that kind of thing.

2 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Mr. Barani, do you know of any attacks

3 of that nature?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no awareness of any attacks

5 of this kind, and I can say there were none.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Excellent. You said that the bombing was of no importance at all,

8 and you know full well that, during the war, the centre of Mitrovica was

9 bombed and not only the SUP building but that the mosque was hit in the

10 centre of Mitrovica, too, and that there was a great deal of panic in

11 Mitrovica. For example, when the Mitrovica centre was hit, including the

12 SUP building, including the targeted mosque and everything else, do you

13 consider that this had absolutely no effect on the population? Just give

14 me a yes or no answer, please.

15 JUDGE MAY: I don't think it may be susceptible to a yes or no

16 answer. Let's deal with it in this way: Now, first of all -- first of

17 all -- let's us deal with it. Let us deal with it in this way.

18 First of all, was the centre of Mitrovica bombed?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. This is not true that the

20 centre of Mitrovica was bombed, if we're talking about the city. The

21 military barracks was bombed and also the police station and the arms

22 depots.

23 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. So it is alleged that the SUP building

24 was bombed. Was that bombed? Or is that what you call the police

25 station?

Page 1257

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it was bombed.

2 JUDGE MAY: He said the mosque was hit. Was that hit?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The mosque was hit but not by NATO

4 but by the Serbian army.

5 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Dealing simply with NATO. He said that

6 there was a great deal of panic. Is that right?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] People were not scared but were

8 delighted. I'm talking about the Albanian population. Because finally a

9 force had emerged that would save them from extermination.

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Where is the SUP building which you refer to as the police

13 station? Where is it located?

14 A. The SUP building, which I mean, is in the northeast of Mitrovica,

15 in the Ibri neighbourhood.

16 Q. So nothing was hit in the centre. Is that it? Is that what

17 you're saying?

18 A. Two shells fell within the fence of the building of the former

19 Yugoslav army, which is near the market of Mitrovica in the second central

20 neighbourhood. But on this occasion, there was no damage except that the

21 glass in the windows of the buildings roundabout was broken.

22 Q. Do you know that in the area of Kosovska Mitrovica, 116 or 117 - I

23 can just be wrong in that one figure - bombs were thrown during the NATO

24 strike, the NATO bombing?

25 A. I don't know about the quantities of bombs that were dropped.

Page 1258

1 Q. And it began on the 25th of March, 24th of March. On the 24th of

2 March, two airstrikes. On the 25th, four airstrikes. Do you remember

3 that in Mitrovica, on the 24th and 25th, not to go beyond that, just those

4 two days.

5 A. On the 24th of March, during the night, I heard NATO bombing, but

6 where they fell and how many bombs there were, I don't know.

7 Q. You only remember the bombing of the military depot, but that is

8 on Bair hill that you mentioned a moment ago when you were saying that the

9 population was there and was bothered but not by NATO but the Serb forces.

10 That's what you said, is it?

11 A. I didn't say they were shelled by Serbian forces. I don't say --

12 and I didn't say that there were people there. I said that I was in a

13 meadow in the village of Vinarc i Poshtem in Mitrovica and somewhere round

14 about the 13th and 14th of April, and there I saw how the depot of the

15 Yugoslav army in the village of Frasher was bombed, and this village is

16 adjacent to the Bair neighbourhood of Mitrovica. That is in my statement.

17 That I saw with my own eyes.

18 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, it's now 11.00 and time to adjourn.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

20 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Barani, we'll adjourn now for half a hour. Could

21 you come back, then, at half past eleven, please.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.

23 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

24 --- On resuming at 11.32 a.m.

25 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

Page 1259

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Do you know Radomir Pantovic?

3 A. Yes. Yes and no. Yes, I know him.

4 Q. He worked in the same shop with you in different shifts.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And his relative, Todor Zivkovic, on July 1999, in July 1999, the

7 KLA took him from the cemetery and he was at the cemetery by the grave of

8 his son, and the KLA took him to the building of the social insurance

9 where the KLA headquarters was. Radomir Pantovic, whom you know, who you

10 worked with in different shifts, asked you to intervene so that they would

11 not liquidate his relative. Do you remember that?

12 A. This is not true at all.

13 Q. I have information that he did ask you but that you refused to

14 help him. Let us proceed.

15 You mentioned Fadil Kurti, that he was killed by the Serbs. Fadil

16 Kurti was a policeman. He worked at the MUP. A policeman from the

17 village of Cabra. He worked at the MUP in Zubin Potok; is that correct?

18 A. This is not true, and I didn't mention him at all.

19 Q. Do you know of him?

20 A. This is the first time that I've heard this name.

21 Q. So you do not know about Zumur Aljickaj, his brother-in-law, who

22 called him to come to the village of Llaushe to pick up his wife and then

23 he massacred him there, killed him. You don't know anything about that?

24 A. I have no knowledge of this incident at all.

25 Q. In 1996, did you direct a play in which you glorified the killing

Page 1260

1 of a policeman by Adem Jashari?

2 A. I did indeed direct a play, because I regularly work in the

3 theatre, but this is a very mistaken report. It's not true at all.

4 Q. And what was the play? This in 1996, the one related to the

5 killing of the policeman.

6 A. All the performances were events that happened or could happen,

7 regardless of what these were about.

8 Q. What you have been saying now, is this to say that it has nothing

9 to do with this subject that I'm questioning you about?

10 A. If -- if I'm supposed to explain all the plays that I've directed,

11 there are 53 premiers and ever so many subsequent performances, it would

12 take a lot of time.

13 JUDGE MAY: If you don't remember this particular play, just say

14 so. If you do remember, just say yes or no whether it was concerned with

15 the killing of a policeman.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was not -- no performance was

17 about the killing of a policeman.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Do you know Skender or did you know Skender Ademi?

20 A. I have known him and I spoke about him before.

21 Q. How did he lose his life?

22 A. I said before; he is counted missing and how he died or whether he

23 died, I do not know.

24 Q. But I have information that you were directly connected to his

25 kidnapping and that you killed him in the village of Sukovac.

Page 1261

1 A. This is not true, and you have extremely erroneous information.

2 This is a pure lie.

3 Q. All right. In the neighbourhoods of Tamnik and Bair that we've

4 been mentioning, there were about 100 members of the KLA from Vaganice and

5 Osljani, from the village of Vaganice and the village of Osljani. Yes or

6 no.

7 A. This is the first time I've heard anything like this. I haven't

8 said anything of this kind.

9 Q. What I'm asking you, you were talking about Tamnik, you were

10 talking about Vaganice. So now I'm asking you whether this group of 100

11 members of the KLA was in Tamnik and Bair and from Vaganice and Osljani

12 JUDGE MAY: I think he's answered before that he doesn't know how

13 many members of the KLA there were.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Do you know of Ismet Hoxha, Milezim Krasniqi, Fadil Deljic

17 nicknamed Buli [phoen], Avnic Hardimal [phoen], Nexhat Cubreli, Bajram

18 Jaha, all of them being KLA commanders? Do you know of them? Do you

19 know them personally or do you know all of them personally?

20 A. I know some of them, and they weren't commanders but they were

21 members of the KLA.

22 Q. And I assert that they were members of the headquarters of that

23 group that was working and operating in Bair and Tamnik. Is that correct?

24 A. I don't know anything about this.

25 Q. And do you know that Bajram Jaha, who was a member of the KLA, as

Page 1262

1 you said, that he was a drug dealer at the same time? You said that his

2 house had been set on fire.

3 A. It's true that his house was burned on 27th of March. And what he

4 was involved in, besides having a restaurant, I don't know.

5 Q. All right. He was a gambler in addition to being a drug dealer

6 and a restaurant owner.

7 Do you know Salj Fehemi, commander of the Intervention Platoon of

8 the KLA?

9 A. This is the first time that I've heard that name.

10 Q. I am asking you because he was located in Tamnik, and he was in

11 charge of operations in Kosovska Mitrovica, and his house is right by the

12 school called the 25th of May. It's sort of in your neighbourhood. It's

13 impossible for you not to know him. Try to remember. Do you know him or

14 not?

15 A. It's not true that he operated in Tavnik in uniform. It is also

16 untrue that he is my neighbour because I know all my neighbours and people

17 further off, too, but I've never heard this name, and I do not know him.

18 Q. And do you know Jakup Ufcu?

19 A. If that name was said properly, this is the first time that I've

20 heard it.

21 Q. All right. Then I'm not going to put any more questions to you in

22 relation to him. Do you know Feriz Fetah, Pushi Tolla [phoen], the former

23 reserve officer who worked for the security at the Trepca company?

24 A. Yes, I know him.

25 Q. Was he also one of the commanders in Shala?

Page 1263

1 A. Yes. He was one of the KLA commanders in the Shala unit.

2 Q. Very well. Do you know Safet Dobrini, Dobrini Safet? His house

3 is in the neighbourhood of -- called of the 22nd division, near the motel.

4 Do you know about him?

5 A. This is also the first time I've heard this name. And there's no

6 neighbourhood with this name in Mitrovica. I've never heard of such a

7 place.

8 Q. The first time? You don't even know the neighbourhood? The

9 neighbourhood doesn't exist? I have information that this house of his

10 was a collection centre for the KLA in Shala. You don't know anything

11 about this?

12 A. I have no knowledge of the existence of any such person or any

13 such neighbourhood in Mitrovica. And I know all the neighbourhoods in

14 Mitrovica.

15 Q. All right. Have you heard of the following names: Sadik Kurti,

16 Fatik Myftari, Fatmir Serati, Fatmir Serati? Have you heard of these

17 names? Do you know these people?

18 A. Which Sahid? There are many Sahids and Fatmirs so I don't know

19 who you mean. Just tell me where they live and maybe I can answer.

20 Q. You have not heard of them as a group or as individuals?

21 A. This is the first time I've heard about them.

22 Q. I'm asking you because they were in charge of procuring weapons

23 from Albania and bringing them to Tamnik and Shala.

24 Do you know that when the OSCE mission went, when they left,

25 rather, in the village of Kovacica they left some equipment that the KLA

Page 1264

1 used for monitoring the communications between the MUP and the army?

2 A. This question is not clear to me.

3 Q. I'm asking you whether you know that the monitoring mission, when

4 they left the village of Kovacica, they left some equipment that the KLA

5 used for the monitoring the communications of the police and the army?

6 A. I don't know anything about this.

7 Q. And do you know since this communication was monitored with a view

8 to preparing the attack of the entire structure of the KLA against

9 Mitrovica, precisely in order to set the right time for that attack?

10 A. I don't know anything about this either.

11 Q. And do you know Ymer Myftari from the village of Vllasinje who was

12 a school inspector previously in the municipality of Kosovska Mitrovica

13 and who was later the commander of the KLA in the village of Vllasinje?

14 A. I know Ymer, but I have no knowledge of him being a commander.

15 Q. Well, he was not a big commander. He just had 15 more bandits

16 with him, and they went around killing people.

17 A. I said I don't know anything about this. I know Ymer as an

18 educational inspector.

19 Q. Very well. You said awhile ago that you did not know anything

20 about clashes between the KLA and the military and the police in Tamnik or

21 of the death of Nejbosa Hodzic, a soldier.

22 Do you know on the 29th of May, 1999, that Ivan Milosevic, another

23 soldier, was killed and that this group that had connections with

24 Mujahedin groups chopped off his head and stabbed him 17 times with a

25 knife in addition to killing him in this way? Do you know of this event?

Page 1265

1 A. I have no knowledge of anything of this kind.

2 Q. Very well. In Bajgora, at this review of KLA troops that you

3 attended, you got a certificate of gratitude. What kind of certificate of

4 gratitude was this?

5 A. The certificate is -- was for my office, because I had often

6 visited the villages of Shala after offensives and had attended many

7 funerals of Albanians who had been shot by the Serbian army and police in

8 this area.

9 Q. Were these members of the KLA?

10 A. These were elderly men and women, including a paralysed elderly

11 woman who was stabbed with a knife in the village of Kacanol in Mitrovica

12 municipality.

13 Q. You are claiming that the army and the police did not shoot at the

14 KLA but at some old men and women. Is that what you're saying?

15 A. That's what always happened during offensives. When I say this, I

16 can say that of the bodies that I saw, not one of them was in uniform; all

17 of them were civilians.

18 Q. You are saying, and also on the basis of everything you've said so

19 far, the Operation Zone Shala, the Operation Zone of the KLA, so far I

20 mentioned so many names and you know at least 15 of their commanders. So

21 this is a large group. You know that this entire structure was fighting

22 the army and the police and was killing people all over, and you claim

23 that you did not see any of them, only old men and women?

24 JUDGE MAY: I'm not sure if I follow the question. What is the

25 question, Mr. Milosevic?

Page 1266

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, the question is how does he

2 explain this - how shall I put this? - highly illogical contradiction

3 between the fact that on the one hand he confirmed here that this

4 Operation Zone of Shala that the KLA covered by covering Mitrovica with a

5 large number of KLA members, and he confirmed himself that he knew at

6 least 15-odd names of their commanders. So this is a big structure.

7 Furthermore, that this entire structure was shooting at the military and

8 the police, fighting against the military and the police.

9 How can he claim that the army and the police were shooting

10 innocent civilians? I'm asking him to explain that. Apart from all these

11 masses of the KLA and these commanders who were commanding someone - and

12 the information we have is that there were 4.000 members - and how can he,

13 in spite of all of that, claim that the army and the military were

14 shooting innocent civilians?

15 JUDGE MAY: But that is his evidence. He says this is what

16 happened.

17 Now, as I've said before, you can make comments about that, as

18 you've just made, but it's not a question for him. You can ask him, if

19 you like, if he's telling the truth.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No. I asked him how does he explain

21 this kind of contradiction in his very own statement.

22 JUDGE MAY: That's not a question for him.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. In addition to Shala, in 1998 you were in Drenica and Prekaz in

Page 1267

1 1998 with the KLA; is that right?

2 A. On the 22nd of January, 1998, when the house of Shaban Murat

3 Jashari was attacked by the Serbian police and army in the night, I went

4 on the following day in the morning, at 9.00, to Skenderaj by bus. And

5 from there, I went on foot to visit the family of Shaban Murat Jashari.

6 And it is not true that I went with soldiers but I went by myself with a

7 camera and a video camera and a pencil in my hand.

8 Q. As for this visit to Murat Jashari, I'm not asking you about

9 that. I'm saying that in Drenica, in Prekaz, you made a propaganda film,

10 and you are featuring in that film, together with KLA terrorists.

11 A. No. This is not true, and this is very erroneous information.

12 Q. All right. Are you aware of the liquidation of two brothers

13 called Mitrovic, in the village of Mihalici in 1998 also?

14 A. The name of the village is not clear to me.

15 Q. Mihalic is the village, the two Mitrovic brothers.

16 A. The village of Mihalic is of the Vushtrri commune and never,

17 either before or during or after the war, have I been there.

18 Q. Mitrovica [as interpreted] and Vucitrn are very close by, as you

19 well know.

20 JUDGE MAY: He says he's not been.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] He's never been to Vucitrn?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The question was not related to

23 Vushtrri but the question was related to the village of Mihalic. Vushtrri

24 in itself is Vushtrri and the village of Mihalic is Mihalic.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 1268

1 Q. All right. In May 1999, the KLA in Prilvzje killed six young Serb

2 men below Cicevica. Do you remember that?

3 A. I can't remember. I don't remember because I have no knowledge of

4 such a case.

5 Q. Do you know about the village of Sllatine? It is between Vucitrn

6 and Mitrovica. Halfway between the two. Have you heard of that village?

7 A. Can you please repeat the name of the village and the

8 neighbourhoods they are a part of?

9 Q. Sllatine, halfway between Vucitrn and Mitrovica.

10 A. It's the first time that I hear of such a village, and I'm sure

11 that there is no such village -- a village with such name in the

12 municipality of Mitrovica or Vucitrn.

13 Q. It was burnt down and the population are dispersed. Did you --

14 have you heard about Nova Selo Macunsko and Banjska? Have you heard of

15 those villages?

16 A. I'm sorry, I repeat once again: Can you mention the villages with

17 the name that they actually hold? Because I have not heard of such names

18 that you are talking about.

19 Q. You've never heard of the village of Banjska? Have you heard

20 about Strahini Span [phoen] and the village of Banjska near Kosovska

21 Mitrovica? There are two villages of Banjska but one is close to Kosovska

22 Mitrovica.

23 A. As for the Banjska village, I know about but previously there was

24 a name which was quite different and --

25 Q. What about Novo Selo? Have you heard of that? All right. You've

Page 1269

1 heard of Banjska. You've heard of Macunsko and Novo Selo. Do you know

2 that both those two Serb villages were burnt, like the one a moment ago

3 you said you hadn't heard of?

4 A. I also know about the village of Magjunaj, formerly Novo Selo.

5 Q. Yes, and you don't know about Banjska?

6 A. I said that earlier. I also know about Banjska, and I said that.

7 Q. And do you know that both of them were burnt and who burnt them?

8 Do you know that?

9 A. Whether they are burned, they were burned, and who burned them, I

10 don't know.

11 Q. But you know they were Serb villages, don't you?

12 A. I know that in the village of Magjunaj, there were Serbs and

13 Albanians. It was not an ethnically pure Serb village.

14 Q. All right. The majority of the population were Serbs. In 1998,

15 do you know --

16 A. I'm sorry?

17 Q. In 1998, do you know about the killing of two young men in the

18 village of Bukos? Have you heard of the village of Bukos?

19 A. I have heard about the village of Bukos, but I have not heard

20 about the killing of two young men.

21 Q. I'm just talking about the killings in Mitrovica. I'm not

22 mentioning any other villages outside your area. Do you happen to know

23 when an incident occurred in the village of Pantina? You've heard of

24 Pantina, haven't you, when a whole family was kidnapped?

25 A. I know where the Pantina village is, but the village of Pantina

Page 1270

1 belongs to the municipality of Vushtrri, and about this case, it's the

2 first time I hear.

3 Q. It's very close by, on the edge there.

4 All right. Do you know about Kosovska Mitrovica, on the 13th of

5 January 1999, when an Albanian Nexhmedin Salihu was killed?

6 A. I don't know anything about such case, or maybe the name is not

7 said correctly.

8 Q. Nexhmedin Salihu, an Albanian killed in Kosovska Mitrovica.

9 A. I know about a certain Nexhmedin who was killed, but I don't know

10 his surname.

11 Q. His surname is Salihu, and he was also killed by the KLA.

12 What about in the village of Supkovac on the 27th of January, when

13 Dejan Kostic was killed? Do you know about that incident?

14 A. About this occasion, I have a report about the killing of Dejan

15 Kostic, but as to who killed him, that remained enigmatic and he was found

16 in the street by police.

17 Q. Do you know about the killing, once again in Mitrovica, on the 3rd

18 of February, 1999, when Emir Rexhepi was killed, Emir Rexhepi?

19 A. I don't know anything about this case or the name may not be

20 correct.

21 Q. Emir Rexhepi.

22 A. I don't know anything about this case.

23 Q. And do you know about the killing, once again of an Albanian,

24 Naser Hajziri in Mitrovica in December 1998 in the Melica cafe?

25 A. This case was mentioned earlier when I was talking about the

Page 1271

1 person who killed him and is serving a sentence in prisons in Serbia,

2 somewhere in Serbia.

3 Q. Do you know that the command structures of the KLA adopted a

4 decision to assassinate prominent Albanians loyal to Serbia?

5 A. I have no knowledge of such a decision.

6 Q. Do you know that that is something that was written in a report by

7 the Kosovo Verification Mission for the period ranging from the 9th to the

8 12th of March? It was contained in that report, that fact.

9 A. I don't know anything about this case.

10 Q. Do you know something about the killing of three Romany? They

11 were brothers; Gani Gushani, Basra Gushani, and Hilmi Gushani, three Roma

12 brothers who were killed in Mitrovica?

13 A. I know about this case and I have the original report which I

14 passed on the following day to the media, but that murder, the case of

15 those murders again is a mystery.

16 Q. Actually, they had reported to -- they wanted to become local

17 policemen and put their names up for that position and then they were

18 killed. Do you have any knowledge about that?

19 A. I have no knowledge about this. Whether they wanted to join the

20 police or not, I don't know.

21 Q. I'm telling you that they were killed the next day, after they had

22 put their names forward for becoming local policemen. Do you know about

23 that?

24 JUDGE MAY: He said he knows nothing about it.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 1272

1 Q. Do you happen to remember when there was a kidnapping, the deputy

2 of the Kosovska Mitrovica municipality, Ajeti, was kidnapped. Do you

3 remember that? He was the head of the local police, too, in Kosovska

4 Mitrovica. And he was kidnapped in 1998, and nobody knew of his

5 whereabouts but it was supposed that he had been murdered. Do you know

6 anything about that?

7 A. I've heard about the fact that he is missing, he has disappeared,

8 but I've always suspected that these mystery killings have been organised

9 by the Serb secret services.

10 Q. You are suggesting that the head of the local police force, an

11 Albanian in Mitrovica, was killed by Serbs? Is that what you're saying?

12 A. No, I'm not saying that, and I don't know anything about that, but

13 I know that he was the director of the Mitrovica prison. But other things

14 other than that, I don't know.

15 Q. He used to be the director of the Mitrovica prison, that's true.

16 So he was employed by the state and was, I'm sure, highly respected, a

17 highly respected state official. And I quoted from the OSCE report, so

18 there you have it. I think matters are clear on that point.

19 Do you know, on the 27th of December, that three members of the

20 KLA killed the Potparol [phoen] of the Romany Gypsy organisation?

21 A. I have no knowledge about this case.

22 Q. That's contained in the OSCE report too. And what about the 2nd

23 of January in Radasnik? Radasnik is part of Mitrovica, isn't it? That's

24 right, isn't it?

25 A. It's the first time that I hear about such a location.

Page 1273

1 Q. It's not a place, it's part of Mitrovica. But anyway, two Serbs

2 were killed, one of them a journalist.

3 A. There is no Radasnik in Mitrovica.

4 Q. As for that Radasnik as part of Mitrovica and the two Serbs, one

5 of whom was a journalist, that is something that the OSCE report talks

6 about.

7 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, I'm thinking this: That a more

8 efficient way of putting this information before us may be to produce the

9 report in due course, the OSCE report. It may be that the Prosecution

10 have got a copy of it. You can ask this witness questions, but there

11 seems little point if he's going to answer he doesn't know anything about

12 it.

13 Have we got -- Mr. Nice, can you help us with that? Have you got

14 a copy of that report?

15 MR. NICE: It's being looked for at the moment. It's obviously

16 not in court at the moment, but if I've got it, I'll produce it.

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am asking these questions because

19 I think it is quite obvious that I'm asking this with respect to the

20 witness's credibility. He knows nothing. He knows nothing about a single

21 crime committed over the Serbs or loyal Albanians. He knows nothing about

22 anything that was done by the KLA, and he claims -- and he claims what he

23 claims, that the Serb army and police force went and ran after civilians

24 in the midst of the Shala Operative Zone, with 4.000 KLA members present.

25 So forgot about these 4.000 and just concentrated on the civilians.

Page 1274

1 That's why I am asking these questions.

2 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Have you got any more questions?

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Do you know on the 12th of January another Albanian was killed,

5 the owner of a bar? He was taken out of his bar and shot outside on the

6 12th of January, 1999, once again in Kosovska Mitrovica.

7 A. Can you please mention the exact location where that happened?

8 Because I'm once again saying that there is no place named Radasnik in

9 Mitrovica.

10 Q. I can't. I never assumed -- I'm not talking about Radasnik now.

11 I'm talking about the Albanian who was killed and who was the proprietor

12 of a bar. He was taken outside of his bar and killed by a group of KLA

13 members. Do you know about that?

14 A. First of all, I'd like to know the location of where the incident

15 happened and then I can talk about it, if I know.

16 JUDGE MAY: Just answer this: Do you know of any occasion about

17 this time in which an incident of that sort happened?

18 A. I have no knowledge about such an incident.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Do you know, in March, a Serb who was shot at and riddled with

21 bullets underneath a bridge in Kosovska Mitrovica? And there are not many

22 bridges, I don't suppose, in Kosovska Mitrovica.

23 A. On March of what year are we talking about?

24 Q. 1999.

25 A. It's impossible for him to have been killed by the Albanians,

Page 1275

1 because all the streets and roads were filled, packed with police,

2 military, and paramilitary Serbs.

3 Q. Well, I'm asking you about this Serb who was killed. Do you

4 suggest that that was done by a Serb unit too?

5 A. I have no knowledge about this murder.

6 Q. Do you know, then, about something that took place on the 12th of

7 March? That was quite a bit before the aggression. On the 12th of March,

8 when the director of the theatre was killed? He was also an Albanian.

9 A. This is not true, and the director of the theatre was not killed

10 because I am the director of the theatre.

11 Q. Not the director of the theatre you but the Albanian who was the

12 director of the theatre. I'm talking about him, not about you.

13 JUDGE MAY: Was there another director of the theatre?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there was, and he was a Serb,

15 and he is alive.

16 One clarification, Your Honour, if I may. If we are talking about

17 Kadri Kadriu, he was one of the managers of the cultural house in

18 Mitrovica. He was arrested on the 11th of March, and he was shot on the

19 13th of March in Trepca, near the mine. He was shot and he was mutilated.

20 He was one of the managers, Albanian managers of the cultural house.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. The main director, whether he was the principal director or one of

23 the directors, that's not important. What I was talking about was an

24 Albanian who was killed.

25 Do you know that a judge, also an Albanian, was kidnapped, a lay

Page 1276

1 judge, in fact and that, on the 15th of March, the KLA informed his family

2 and said that he was being held in Shala? He was a lay judge, an

3 Albanian.

4 A. I have no knowledge about such a case, and I'm sure that it's not

5 true.

6 Q. All right. That is also something that exists in documents.

7 And then we come to the 18th of February, when another Albanian

8 was kidnapped in Shala. You know nothing about the abduction of Albanians

9 during that period of time?

10 A. It would be useful to know who are we talking about by name and

11 surname, because I have a list of all the cases -- of all the cases that

12 happened in Mitrovica, and I have them with me.

13 Q. All right. Do you know about an incident on the 18th of January?

14 On the 18th of January, are you aware of the next incident when a rocket

15 was shot -- targeted a jeep towards Stimlje, on the road towards Stimlje,

16 and five people were injured who were in the jeep? Do you know about that

17 attack by the KLA?

18 A. I know the case very well, but I don't know who shot the jeep

19 because I know that the jeep hit the wall and then spun around.

20 Q. And what would you say? What do you think? Who attacked the

21 police at the exit to Mitrovica?

22 A. I don't know who carried out the attack, but if we are talking

23 about the case that you mentioned, I know that the jeep hit a high wall

24 and then it overturned.

25 Q. Do you know of another event that took place on the 20th of

Page 1277

1 January, 1999, when the police surrounded a house in Mitrovica in which

2 there were between 10 to 15 members of the KLA? On the 20th of January.

3 Do you know about that incident?

4 A. Yes, I know about this case, but this did not take place in

5 Mitrovica but in the village of Vaganice.

6 Q. [Previous translation continues]... about that incident.

7 Vaganice, as you yourself said, is not even three kilometres away from

8 Mitrovica; is that right?

9 A. No, it's not. And on this occasion, two members of the KLA were

10 killed.

11 Q. Do you know that the police, on the 20th of January, surrounded

12 that particular house in the presence of the OSCE observers, that the OSCE

13 observers were present on the occasion when the event took place?

14 A. I have no knowledge about this incident, but I have been myself

15 with the observers of the European Union, and that was the following day.

16 Q. That's what I'm saying. In the presence of the OSCE observers, it

17 is true that two were killed and -- KLA members were killed and the others

18 escaped. And in the report, it states that the KLA opened fire on the

19 policemen first, as incidentally, was always the case, but it just

20 happened that the OSCE observers were present on this particular occasion.

21 A. I said earlier that I was not there on the day of the incident,

22 but I went to the scene the following day with OSCE observers. We went

23 there to the scene of the incident the following day.

24 Q. You talked about demonstrations on the 27th of March, 1989.

25 A. Not on the 7th of March but on the 27th of March, 1999.

Page 1278

1 Q. 1989.

2 A. The 27th of March, 1989.

3 Q. I said the 27th. I did not say the 7th.

4 JUDGE MAY: Let's not waste time on that. March 1989,

5 demonstrations.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said yes.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Who led these demonstrations?

9 A. The demonstrations were led by the students and the teachers

10 themselves and, later, the whole of the population - I mean the Albanian

11 population - joined in.

12 Q. Do you remember that these were destructive demonstrations, that

13 everything was broken, shattered wherever the demonstrators passed by?

14 A. This is not true because the demonstrations were taking place in a

15 location where there was nothing to destroy but there was only a bridge

16 which is known as Ura e Gjakut.

17 Q. All the shop windows were broken, all the stores, everything that

18 was nearby. Don't you remember that?

19 A. I remember very well the demonstration of the 27th of March, 1989,

20 but it is not true what the accused is saying because the location where

21 it was taking place was not surrounded by anything other than the bridge.

22 Q. And they moved nowhere? They didn't go anywhere from the bridge?

23 A. They could not move because the road leading into the city was

24 blockaded by the Serb police, and they had no chance of getting into the

25 city.

Page 1279

1 Q. Now you've come to the main point. Why do you say the Serb

2 police?

3 A. Because the Serb police fired and killed Albanians, because there

4 was also Albanian police at the time.

5 Q. And do you know that it was precisely at that time and at these

6 demonstrations in Mitrovica that the majority of the policemen were

7 Albanians?

8 A. Yes, I know pretty well, but it was Serb forces from Vushtrri and

9 Leposavic who came there, and Albanians were on the second line.

10 Q. So you know even in which line the Albanians were?

11 A. Yes, I know it very well because I was at the gas station near the

12 bus station, and I saw them lined up. And I know them. I used to know

13 them, even in the past.

14 Q. But my question is very precise: Do you know that the majority of

15 the policemen at these demonstrations were ethnic Albanians?

16 A. In the demonstrations we are talking about, the majority were not

17 Albanians but Serbs, because new forces were deployed there, saying that

18 the Albanians didn't help the Serb police and so the Serbs were put on the

19 front line.

20 Q. That is your explanation. Unfortunately, it is not correct. But

21 let us go on from here.

22 THE ACCUSED: I would like to draw your attention to the fact that

23 this is interesting because the witness is saying that five Albanians were

24 killed and the Prosecutor said that 100 Albanians were killed in these

25 demonstrations, and now we've come to a figure that is 20 times lower.

Page 1280

1 But even what the witness has been saying now is incorrect.

2 JUDGE MAY: Put a question. If you have a question,

3 Mr. Milosevic, put it to the witness.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Of course I have questions.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Now we're going to move on from the demonstrations to yet another

7 subject. Do you remember a decision of the Albanian political leaders

8 that Albanians should boycott their work? Do you remember the word

9 "boycott" and the decision to carry out this boycott all over?

10 A. This is not true, and it's groundless, because the decision of the

11 Albanians was that not a single Albanian should leave their work without

12 being forced to. This was a decision taken by the independent union of

13 Kosova, headed by Hajrullah Gorani.

14 Q. So you claim that Albanians did not go on strike and did not stop

15 working and did not state that they would not carry out their work duties?

16 A. We should not confuse things. The strike is one thing and work is

17 another thing. You said that it was a decision not to go to work, that

18 is, to boycott work. This is not true.

19 As to the strike, it's something else. It was a one-day strike,

20 and Albanians, some of the Albanians, participated.

21 Q. I'm not talking about a one-day strike. I'm talking about a

22 long-lasting boycott of work duties.

23 A. I said there was no boycott because it was the insistence of all

24 Albanians not to leave the job without being forcibly asked to.

25 Q. So you claim that Albanians went to work and that they actually

Page 1281

1 worked those days and those weeks?

2 A. Until the doors of the factories and plants were blocked by the

3 Serb police and they did not allow them to get inside.

4 Q. Who was forbidden to enter the premises?

5 A. The Albanian workers were forbidden to enter the premises.

6 Q. You know full well that this is not true, and you know that for a

7 long time there were orders to boycott work. And you claim, therefore,

8 that all of that is incorrect; right? That all of this is not true?

9 A. It is incorrect. The truth is that the Albanians were recommended

10 not to leave their work without violence.

11 Q. Was there any case of violence over anyone in any institution or

12 any company? Is that perhaps your assertion?

13 A. I said that there were policemen placed at the doors of the

14 factories, plants, who did not let the Albanian workers go inside the

15 premises.

16 Q. All right. Do you remember the strike at Stari Trg?

17 A. Yes, I remember very well both strikes.

18 Q. Do you remember that it was actually the other way around, that

19 the strikers who, for political reasons, had taken over the job places,

20 the workplaces, actually blocked these workplaces and did not allow

21 workers who wanted to work to come in at all? Do you remember that?

22 A. Can you please repeat the question, and not a couple of questions

23 at once but please only one?

24 Q. Do you remember that strikers blocked workplaces and remained

25 there and did not wish to work?

Page 1282

1 A. I remember very well. But they blocked the workplaces, it was a

2 hunger strike, and they asked the resignation of three officials of

3 Kosova.

4 Q. All right. Now you said that they blocked workplaces. They

5 blocked workplaces. And this went on for days. Is that right or is that

6 not right?

7 A. The strike went on for eight days, until the workers were promised

8 that these miners of Trepca, that everything will be improved and the

9 resignation will take place. They were lies. And this is why the workers

10 left the mine and came out of it.

11 Q. All right. Your claim is that it was eight days. Let us say that

12 it was eight days. Do you remember that for all these eight days, three

13 times a day, in three shifts, workers who wished to work came in but they

14 were not allowed in because the others had blocked the workplaces? Do you

15 remember that?

16 A. This is not true at all, because the entire Albanian population of

17 Kosova solidarised with the miners, the strikers in Trepca.

18 Q. That is also not correct. Do you remember the structure of the

19 entire Kosovo leadership at that time precisely? In 1989, that is.

20 A. What do you mean by "the structure"?

21 Q. As for the main political offices in Kosovo, were they held by

22 Serbs or Albanians? Who held the main political offices in Kosovo?

23 A. They were held by the Albanians.

24 Q. And these Albanians, did they support these destructive

25 demonstrations or these blockades of workplaces that you refer to? You

Page 1283

1 call this blockades of workplaces so let us use your terminology. Did

2 they support that?

3 A. There was no destruction inflicted, and I didn't say that there

4 was a blockade of workplaces. And the leadership of Kosova did not

5 support them.

6 Q. But you claim that the other Albanians did support them.

7 A. They were in full solidarity with the Trepca miners.

8 Q. A short while ago, you claimed that there were no Albanian

9 policemen and in 1989 there were Serb policemen only in Kosovska

10 Mitrovica, and now you say that all Albanians expressed their solidarity

11 with those who blocked workplaces. So do you remember, did you at least

12 watch this on television, that shift of workers would come to work but

13 they could not enter the workplace because it had been blocked, things

14 like that?

15 A. There are a couple of questions. Please take them one by one.

16 JUDGE MAY: Let's try and bring this to a close. I think we've

17 dealt fully with this. What he suggested was that a shift of workers

18 tried to enter the workplace but couldn't do so because it was blocked.

19 Now, is that right or not right?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it's not right.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. You didn't even see this on television?

23 JUDGE MAY: He said it's not right.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let me ask him another question

25 then.

Page 1284

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. What about the Serbs, at least, who had jobs there? Did they want

3 to work there or not?

4 A. They didn't want to work.

5 Q. Even the Serbs didn't want to work there?

6 A. They didn't go to the plants. Since they didn't go, I presumed

7 they didn't want to. We are talking about Trepca here.

8 Q. But a short while ago, you explained that only Albanians supported

9 this blockade of workplaces.

10 JUDGE MAY: I don't remember him being asked that. Did only the

11 Albanians support the blockade?

12 Just a moment. Just a moment.

13 Did only the Albanians support the blockade?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only the Albanians.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. And how many Serbs were then employed at Trepca?

17 A. I think the relevant bodies might give you the exact figures. I

18 can't do that.

19 Q. You can give a yes or a no answer to this: It was a political

20 strike and the blockade was for political reasons; yes or no.

21 A. It was a strike which asked for the resignation of three

22 politicians.

23 Q. Let us not go into further detail. Obviously, there are material

24 facts involved and there is no reason to debate that here.

25 Let us look at this statement, this declaration that was brought

Page 1285

1 here as some kind of a crown document. I'm asking you now, whose

2 declaration is this? Is this a declaration of the work organisation of

3 the medical centre of the 13th of July, basic organisation of hospital

4 services in Kosovska Mitrovica?

5 A. This was a decision which they had to sign, all the Albanian

6 workers of the General Hospital of Mitrovica.

7 Q. Was it only Albanians who were employed at the Mitrovica hospital?

8 A. There were also others, not only the Albanians. But only the

9 Albanians were offered to sign such a statement.

10 Q. Do you know that, in that medical organisation, everybody

11 together, all the employees, Serbs, Albanians, took upon themselves the

12 obligation to sign a declaration stating that they would carry out their

13 work duties at the workplace?

14 A. Even if the Serb workers were offered this statement, they had the

15 reason to sign it because they recognised Serbia as their own republic.

16 Q. So we have come to your main point now. This is, therefore, a

17 declaration that is required by a hospital which is state owned; right?

18 A. It is state owned.

19 Q. In that declaration, it says that one should take upon the

20 obligation that during working hours, working hours, "I shall abide by

21 legal provisions, notably the law on labour relations."

22 A. Yes. But at the end, it writes that, "I recognise the Republic of

23 Serbia as my own republic." This was why the Albanian staff refused to

24 sign it, because they didn't consider it their own.

25 Q. It doesn't say here I admit or recognise or do not recognise

Page 1286












12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts. Pages 1286 to 1296.













Page 1297

1 something that is obvious. It says, "will abide by the regulations of the

2 republic." "Abide by the regulations in their republic." Now, what is

3 controversial about that?

4 JUDGE MAY: Let us have the exhibit, Exhibit 24. Put it on the

5 ELMO, please.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Before you comment. Mr. Nice, how was this

7 translated?

8 MR. NICE: There was a draft translation, I think, provided.


10 MR. NICE: Well, if it's a draft translation it will have been

11 by somebody working in the Office of the Prosecutor, and then a final

12 translation will come available in due course. Incidentally, it is a

13 document, I said, the original was available if we wanted to look at it,

14 and I have that at hand.

15 JUDGE MAY: The original of this document.

16 MR. NICE: The original of this document. I said yesterday it was

17 available.

18 JUDGE MAY: Perhaps that should be given to the witness. And the

19 Cyrillic could be put on the ELMO, please.

20 Now, Mr. Milosevic, what was the point?

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The point was that in any state, in

22 a state company, in a state hospital, and even in a private company or in

23 a private hospital, a person who is employed there during working hours

24 has to abide by the law. And it says here that they will abide by all

25 regulations, and we are going to get to this controversial part as well,

Page 1298

1 because I see that this law on the use of language and alphabet is

2 something that the Prosecutor particularly pointed out. It's the other

3 way around, it's not the way you've put it. That they would observe

4 regulations and laws during working hours.

5 Tell me, please, what is controversial about this, that a person

6 who is employed somewhere and receives a salary there should observe laws

7 and regulations during working hours, laws that are passed by that

8 republic?

9 JUDGE MAY: It's the second paragraph which is regarded as

10 controversial. Now, have you any questions to the witness about this?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can barely see this, so I have to

12 look at the transcript. That was precisely my question.

13 JUDGE MAY: Can we get the white copy on the ELMO, and if the

14 witness looks at the green, it might be easier to see it. The Cyrillic.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Oh, I have the Cyrillic copy. It's

16 right over here. I don't need it on the ELMO. Perhaps you do.

17 JUDGE MAY: It doesn't matter. Put it on. Right.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness, could you read the second paragraph so

19 we could have a translation of it. Are you in a position to do so, to

20 read the Cyrillic, the original?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see here written "original in

22 Serbian." Can I say the translation?

23 "I accept the Republic of Serbia as my own republic."

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: No. What I wanted you to read was the entire

25 second paragraph.

Page 1299

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me, but it is difficult for

2 me to read in Cyrillic letters.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

4 JUDGE MAY: We'll have to await the final translation.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can read it for you. I'm going to

6 read it in Serbian, this second paragraph, and very slowly at that, very

7 slowly.

8 JUDGE MAY: [Previous translation continues]...

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] "I also declare that during working

10 hours, I shall abide by the provisions of system-based laws of the

11 Republic of Serbia, notably the law on employment under special

12 circumstances, law on territorial organisation, the law on the use of

13 language and alphabet, and other laws that pertain to the established

14 territorial integrity and sovereignty of my Republic of Serbia in which I

15 live and work."

16 Full stop. No more than that.

17 Therefore, the republic, according to the Yugoslav Constitution

18 and according to its own Constitution, is a state. It passes laws. There

19 is not a single law that pertains only to Serbs or only to Albanians or

20 only to Hungarians or only to Ruthenians, Romanians, Bulgarians, or anyone

21 else for that matter. That is to say, laws that are passed by the

22 republic - since you are legal people, you know this full well - they

23 apply to all citizens, and this is an organisation per se that made --

24 JUDGE MAY: Now, Mr. Milosevic, we have taken the point you make.

25 Now, have you any more questions for this witness about this document?

Page 1300

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The question is: What's wrong with

2 this document? What does the witness consider to be a problem in relation

3 to this document?

4 JUDGE MAY: He has given his evidence about that, and it's not for

5 him to take the matter further. You can make submissions in due course

6 and we will have to decide what the effect of those submissions are and

7 what the effect of this document is.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I do have other questions of

9 this witness.

10 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We're going to adjourn now. Now, we shall

11 expect you, Mr. Milosevic, to finish your cross-examination of this

12 witness this afternoon. You will then have had up to four hours to

13 cross-examine. So perhaps you would organise your cross-examination to do

14 so.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Don't worry. I shall certainly

16 finish today by all means.

17 JUDGE MAY: Half past two.

18 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.05 p.m.








Page 1301

1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Barani, before Mr. Milosevic continues, I

3 wanted to ask you, and you may have given this evidence already: When was

4 the declaration that we're looking at issued? The declaration that had to

5 be signed by workers.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the beginning of 1990. In other

7 words, 1990, 1991. You can see on the declaration itself.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: And it was issued in the same form, in the same

9 language?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was issued just as it is. That's

11 an original declaration that was given to the staff of the Mitrovica

12 General Hospital.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, continue.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Within the time by which I promised

15 to finish today, before I continue, I nonetheless do have to ask several

16 questions to clarify some points that remained unclear. I didn't read

17 through the locality, the word locality carefully, the locality where two

18 Serbs were killed, one of the journalists -- where one of the journalists

19 were killed. The locality, the place was called Rasadnik.

20 A. You mean Fidanishte where there was a well-known case of where the

21 bodies of two Serbs were found in which the international observers who

22 were in Mitrovica were at the scene of the incident and took notes.

23 Q. All right. And something in connection with the theatre. There

24 were two wings of the theatre, the Serbian drama theatre and the Albania

25 drama theatre. You were director of the Albanian drama theatre.

Page 1302

1 A. There were not two theatres in Mitrovica. From 1992 there

2 weren't. There was a group that worked in the Serbian language, but they

3 didn't do very much.

4 Q. I didn't say there were two theatres. What I meant was within the

5 frameworks of one theatre house there was the section for Serb plays, a

6 Serb play section and Albanian play section. That was what I meant.

7 A. There were three sections operating in the same building;

8 Albanian, Serbian, and Turkish, but the Serbian and Turkish sections

9 didn't work, but the Albanian theatre, which I headed, did work and still

10 works and did so without interruption.

11 Q. All right. That's a very positive thing. That's good. And I'm

12 not bringing that into question at all. But at all events, the work of

13 the overall theatre was financed by the municipality. That is correct,

14 isn't it?

15 A. The group that I led was never financed but merely the hall in the

16 culture centre was placed at its disposal.

17 Q. All right. The municipality placed the hall at your disposal; is

18 that right?

19 A. Every now and then. Many plays were also put on in the city park,

20 and I have photographs of these.

21 Q. So you weren't the director of the theatre but the Albanian play

22 section. The fact that the Turkish and Serb part didn't work, wasn't

23 working, I didn't ask you anything about that.

24 Next, you said that all Albanians except for the leadership,

25 during the blockade of the work posts, supported the strikers, and I have

Page 1303

1 received the following information: Not even in Mitrovica, where the

2 strike was the largest, the post office, the health institutions and

3 services, or the courts or the state administration, none of these stopped

4 functioning, along with a series of other public services where the

5 Albanians worked as a majority. Is that true or not?

6 A. There may have been the occasional Albanian who worked during the

7 strike, but the overwhelming majority of Albanians were on strike and

8 expressed their solidarity until the last day, which was 28th of February.

9 Q. But I am speaking about the large majority of Albanians in all

10 public services - the post office, banks, and all the other things that I

11 mentioned - that they did go to work. They were working. Now, do you

12 recall that the director of the bank in Mitrovica was also an Albanian?

13 His name was Jusuf Gjosha and the SDK social accounting service director

14 was Jashar Ismaili, also an Albanian?

15 A. I don't know who the directors were at this time, but I do know

16 that the great majority of the Albanian population kept order and

17 expressed their solidarity with the Trepca workers.

18 Q. All right. I have presented facts that speak of the contrary

19 being true, but you say that that was not so. Have I understood you

20 correctly? Do you consider that that is not true?

21 JUDGE MAY: That's a comment, Mr. Milosevic.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. I asked him whether he

23 considered that that was not true.

24 The witness, with respect to the declaration and in a negative

25 context, spoke about the use of language having to do with law, so I go

Page 1304

1 back to the declaration once again.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Why was there a problem with the law on the use of language?

4 A. Exactly what problem is in question here?

5 Q. The question is the following: In commenting on the declaration

6 which you -- and you can't explain where the problem was, you mentioned

7 the law on the use of language, which is mentioned in the declaration,

8 because it says, "law on the use of language and alphabet," and you

9 brought this up when you were speaking. Now, how did you see -- what

10 problem did you see with respect to the law on the use of language? Where

11 was the problem there, according to you?

12 A. It's not true that I mentioned any law here ever, because I don't

13 know what the rules are here.

14 Q. You spoke about it. You were commenting the declaration that we

15 read a moment ago, before the break.

16 JUDGE MAY: Why not ask him: Mr. Barani, was there any difficulty

17 as far as you were concerned, as far as you could see, in the declaration

18 which is that, during working hours you would abide by various laws, and

19 that included the law on the use of language and alphabet? Could you see

20 any problem in making such a declaration?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The only problem when in signing

22 this -- in signing this declaration is signing where it says, "I recognise

23 the Republic of Serbia as my own."

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Where does it say that? Could you quote it, please, in the

Page 1305

1 declaration, the exact words.

2 JUDGE MAY: Let him have the declaration in front of him.

3 Mr. Barani, can you read it? And it refers to the territorial

4 integrity and sovereignty. You can read that, can you, in the Cyrillic?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have a problem reading, and I

6 can't read it all in Cyrillic, but I can see where -- I can see where it

7 says, "my republic of Serbia."


9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. And yes. And where is the word "I recognise" that is the key

11 word? "I accept."

12 A. It's all a bit earlier, but at the end, it says, "my Republic of

13 Serbia." And for this reason, the Albanian workers didn't sign it.

14 This -- here it is. This is where it is written. This is the original

15 document. You can all see it.

16 Q. Who else can bring in laws other than the legal organs of Serbia,

17 legislative organs of Serbia?

18 A. The Albanians have never recognised the Republic of Serbia as

19 theirs. That's the whole issue about this declaration.

20 Q. That means that you claim that Kosovo is not in Serbia. Is that

21 it?

22 A. Of course it's not.

23 Q. Do you know that Kosovo, even today, is in Serbia?

24 A. I recognise Kosova as Kosova outside Serbia and not part of

25 Serbia.

Page 1306

1 Q. Do you understand that an independent Kosovo is only a dream,

2 flying on the wings of NATO bombers, and once they fly away, you'll wake

3 up and be in Serbia again? Do you understand that?

4 JUDGE MAY: No need to answer that question. It's a comment.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Let me go back to another question. You claimed that the

8 demonstrations were peaceful ones, and I said that they were destructive

9 ones. And at those, as you yourself said, peaceful demonstrations in

10 1989, a policeman was killed by the name of Miroljub Tanaskovic precisely

11 at the gas station, the petrol station, that you were at. Do you know

12 about that?

13 A. It's true that on the 27th of March a Serbian policeman was

14 killed.

15 Q. Now, can those demonstrations then be referred to and called

16 non-destructive, peaceful demonstrations if that was so?

17 A. As I mentioned before, the place where the demonstrations took

18 place didn't have any houses or shops nearby, and there are still none

19 there today.

20 Q. Where they began, yes, but where you moved around, no; and you did

21 move around and destroyed everything in sight. Is that correct or not?

22 A. If this is 27th of March, 1989, it's not true. It's as I say it.

23 In that place, that place has not changed at all, and nor in the town.

24 Demonstrators couldn't enter the town because police were stationed

25 there.

Page 1307

1 Q. And how did they kill this policeman then?

2 A. I don't know how the policeman was killed. I have no knowledge of

3 this.

4 Q. It's sufficient for this.

5 You spoke yesterday about the 13th of March, in particular, when,

6 at the marketplace, bombs exploded. You even, as I jotted down, said that

7 the Serb policemen threw bombs at the marketplace. And now I'm going to

8 ask you the following: Do you remember that on that occasion in the

9 marketplace in Mitrovica, a bomb exploded and that at the same time the

10 same type of bomb exploded in Podujevo? And as far as the victims are

11 concerned, four citizens were killed and 30 others were wounded in

12 Kosovska Mitrovica, seven of them seriously wounded. The victims were

13 both Serbs and Albanians. So at the same time, these bombs were planted

14 in the marketplace in Mitrovica and Podujevo, and according to the

15 findings of the Verification Mission of the OSCE --

16 JUDGE MAY: Let him answer the question. Were there bombs -- were

17 there bombs also placed elsewhere that day?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no knowledge about other

19 places, only about Mitrovica.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Not only was a bomb planted in Podujevo, but it exploded at the

22 same time. In Mitrovica and Podujevo at the same time. And in the report

23 which the observers compiled, it states that the bomb was a homemade bomb.

24 That means that it was an explosive device planted by terrorists

25 simultaneously in Mitrovica and Podujevo.

Page 1308

1 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Barani, Mr. Barani, do you know anything about the

2 report?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know, and I have the names and the

4 surnames of the victims, and there were not four but seven and more than

5 90 were wounded. And I collated into information together with the OSCE

6 who were at that time in Mitrovica. All the wounded were in the Mitrovica

7 General Hospital, and I got all the notes about the wounded from the

8 hospital.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Do you remember that there was a television report from the

11 hospital after the planting of those bombs, that we saw those sorry

12 people, the casualties, lying there in hospital, both Serbs and Albanians?

13 A. I never saw any television broadcast about this incident.

14 Q. And the four dead and 30 wounded, I got those figures from the

15 report that was drawn up by the observers themselves.

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Next question, please.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. You also spoke about the killing of a group of intellectuals on

19 Dren mountain; is that right?

20 A. I -- this was not murder but their arrest, and the fate of two of

21 them is not known to this day.

22 Q. So the fate of those two is not known. You said that it took

23 place on Mount Dren. Is that right?

24 A. The question is not clear to me. There are two or three there;

25 give me one.

Page 1309

1 Q. Did you say that it took place on Dren Mountain?

2 A. The place is called the village of Dreth, and there is a mountain

3 of the same name and it is in Zubin Potok municipality.

4 Q. In fact, it's on Mokra Gora mountain, which divides the Zubin

5 Potok municipality from the Srbica municipality. That's right, isn't it?

6 A. The place I mentioned belongs to Zubin Potok municipality.

7 Q. I don't know about others, but from what you said, from your

8 testimony, I gained the impression that these people, this whole list of

9 some 23 individuals, were killed. That's the impression I gained. And

10 you now said that the fate of two of them is -- only two of them is not

11 known. So could you clear that up? Are you talking about 23 people or

12 two people? And then I'll continue once I get that clarification from

13 you.

14 JUDGE MAY: I think that was his evidence in chief.

15 Is that right?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a question of 23 of a group of

17 25. Twenty-three disappeared, and their fate is not known.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. So I understood what you said quite correctly. You said, in

20 connection with that, that they came across an ambush, came upon an ambush

21 placed there by the army or the police, that they were ambushed by either

22 the army or police.

23 A. That's what I said. According to those who survived and escaped

24 arrest, one of them is Xhafer Behrami, from the village of Kotorr in

25 Skenderaj municipality, who was a member of this group.

Page 1310

1 Q. Do you think it's logical for the army or the police to set up an

2 ambush for 20-odd civilians? Does that seem to you to be logical?

3 JUDGE MAY: Well, that's not really a question for the witness.

4 That's what he says, whether it's logical or not.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Very well, then. I claim that it was an armed group of the KLA,

7 that they bore arms.

8 A. This is not true. None of them had weapons, and none of them were

9 members of the KLA. They were all teachers, doctors, technical workers,

10 and others.

11 Q. You said a group of intellectuals, and now we have from 17, 20,

12 27, 21, 17, 17, 31 and so on and so forth. So apart from two or three

13 persons, all of them were military-able men, and they were all males.

14 That's obvious, I think.

15 JUDGE MAY: He said they weren't members of the KLA, and they

16 didn't have weapons.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, he claimed that he just saw

18 the KLA in passing, and later on, we established that he knew all the

19 commanders. This is another thing that he is claiming now. He was a

20 theatre director, but this is such -- these are such great contradictions

21 that you can't get away from them. But let me move on.

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes, move on.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. You said that 5.000 people were sent and imprisoned in

25 Smrekovnica. It is between Mitrovica and Vucitrn.

Page 1311

1 A. I said 5.802 in Smrekovnica prison and in the secondary technical

2 school that was an improvised prison in -- near Mitrovica, and from there,

3 they were sent to Albania.

4 Q. Do you know that the warden of that prison in Smrekovnica was in

5 fact an Albanian?

6 A. Yes, I know that.

7 Q. Do you know that the prison in Smrekovnica is a regular type of

8 prison or, as we call it, a correction centre?

9 A. I know that it's a prison and, at this time, it was a notorious

10 prison among the Albanians.

11 Q. Do you know that the capacity of that prison, whose warden was an

12 Albanian, and, as you say, it was an infamous one, notorious one, as you

13 said, that the capacity of prisoners was 300 to 400 inmates at most?

14 A. I know that very well, but that -- you have in the statement the

15 period between which the number I quoted, over 5.000 of Albanians were

16 imprisoned there.

17 Q. I am precisely stating that that is impossible, in view of the

18 capacities of the prison, and that you are speaking untruths.

19 A. This is true, and I have statements from all those who were held

20 prisoners when they came back from Albania, and they reported to the

21 office for the Protection of Human Rights and prison -- and Freedoms, and

22 they explained in detail all what they suffered in the prison.

23 JUDGE MAY: You mentioned an improvised prison, is that right, in

24 a secondary school?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 1312

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I claim that it is untrue that

2 anybody forced civilians into prison.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Do you think that this is not true? We are now going to move on

5 to something else.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may?


8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For you, it is untrue also in 1990

9 when --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Can he repeat the figures, please, for the

11 interpreters? Can the witness repeat the statement, please?

12 JUDGE MAY: Could you repeat the figures?

13 JUDGE KWON: Could you repeat the question again?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that for the accused and his

15 clique, it is no doubt impossible that 7.200 Albanian school pupils were

16 poisoned in 1990 on 21st and 22nd of March and also the 19th and 20th of

17 April, and I have films of the poisoning with me and the statements of

18 more than 100 primary and secondary pupils.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. This uni-ethnic poisoning of yours was well-known throughout

21 Yugoslavia. This is not exactly news. And now I'm asking you in relation

22 to that, do you know that both Serb and Albanian children sat in the same

23 classrooms and then it was claimed that some kind of gas was being

24 released that poisoned only Albanian children on ethnic grounds?

25 A. What you say is not true, because awhile ago the pupils were

Page 1313

1 segregated and the Serbs were studying in the morning, whereas the

2 Albanians were going to the school in the afternoon. And I say this with

3 full responsibility, because on the 12th of April, 1990, in the elementary

4 school Nondabulka [phoen] in the Iber neighbourhood, the teachers and the

5 pupils of the school had a bottle filled with a kind of substance, and I

6 personally got hold of that with, the late Professor Latif Berisha and

7 Vehbi Zeqiri. We all sent it to the Council for the Protection of Human

8 Rights and Freedoms in Pristina. We handed that over to Zenun Celaj,

9 the secretary of the council. The same sample was sent to France ...

10 JUDGE MAY: I think, Mr. Barani, we must stop you. We are going

11 some way now from the subject matter of the cross-examination.

12 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. I should say so, too, especially in connection with this farce

15 that all of Yugoslavia is familiar with in relation to this poisoning.

16 You are here as - how should I put this? - somebody who brought a

17 sensational document, a document that went from hand to hand, and this is

18 a list of reservists from the village of Svinjar. We saw it here.

19 A. About which list are we talking about?

20 Q. Well, this one that was given to you so that you could

21 authenticate it, the list of reservists from the village of Svinjar.

22 JUDGE MAY: Exhibit 28. Let the witness have it.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's it. I've got it here as

24 well.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 1314

1 Q. We don't really have to waste time with this. It's been displayed

2 several times by now.

3 A. This is a list of the paramilitaries from the Frasher village of

4 Mitrovica.

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Is there anything else you want to ask about it,

6 Mr. Milosevic?

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, is this what you asked for?

8 Is this the original that you wanted to see? I have a copy, of course,

9 but this is the list. It says "List of the reserve force of the village

10 of Svinjar." That's what you wanted to see, right, in the original?

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Yes.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. What is the relevance of this? I would like to hear your answer.

14 A. This list, with all the names that it contains, has been found in

15 the village of Frasher at the checkpoint where the Serb paramilitary were

16 stationed before the arrival of the NATO troops.

17 JUDGE MAY: What do you think it represents?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It contains the names and surnames,

19 and at the beginning, it says it's the list of the Serb paramilitaries for

20 the village of Frasher i Madh.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. It says here from the village of Svinjar, and I don't know which

23 village you have it from. Here it is.

24 A. We're talking about the village of Frasher, formerly Svinjar.

25 Q. Oh, I see. Oh, I see. Now you have new names. Now it's a

Page 1315

1 different story.

2 Where does it say that this is a list of paramilitaries?

3 A. From the very start, it writes that it's a list of the

4 paramilitaries, and we consider paramilitaries those who -- who you call

5 reservists, military reservists.

6 Q. A person remains speechless in face of this, but let us clarify

7 one point: Do you know that every Yugoslav citizen who had done his

8 military service was a military reservist?

9 A. However, the list was found in the place where the Serb

10 paramilitary were stationed in the village of Frasher, where all the

11 Albanian houses were burned down.

12 Q. Please, I would like to clarify this list which you consider to be

13 a document. So could you please answer my questions. Do you know that

14 every citizen of Yugoslavia who had done his military service is a

15 military reservist and is registered in military records as a military

16 reservist according to the profession that he was involved in while doing

17 his military service?

18 A. The list was found at a place where serious crimes were committed.

19 Q. Well, you could have found John Galsworthy's books at the crime

20 site. So how can you bring the two together? I don't understand what

21 this means, this list of reservists from the village of Svinjar.

22 JUDGE MAY: I think we've exhausted this topic now. We have the

23 document, and the parties can make comments about it. You can make

24 comments, Mr. Milosevic.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, every citizen of Yugoslavia

Page 1316

1 who had done his military service is a reservist and is registered in the

2 list of military reservists in the register. Here it says on the top,

3 "List of reserve force from the village of Svinjar." In the English

4 translation, it says "Reserve forces." There is nothing to do with

5 reserve forces. This is not correct. These are reservists. This is a

6 list of military conscripts who may be mobilised but do not have to be

7 mobilised.

8 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is their list and nothing else.

10 The only figure -- the place of employment is needed because of the law.

11 If somebody was mobilised, called up as a reservist, that means that the

12 federal state has to compensate his company for his salary, because the

13 company cannot pay him while he is away, and that is why it is quite

14 clearly stated where each person works so that this payment can be made

15 accordingly. So this is just an ordinary list of military conscripts from

16 a village.

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We have the point.

18 Now, what he's put to you, Mr. Barani, is that this is a list of

19 conscripts. Forget the name of the village. Forget what's written at the

20 top. But as far as you can see, is there anything inconsistent in it

21 being a list of reservists with their employment mentioned?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All the Serbs who operated during

23 the wartime, that's why the names of their professions is written by their

24 names, because they were paid for having served as such forces during the

25 war.

Page 1317

1 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Now, it seems to me we can't take this any

2 further. Can you move on to the next topic, please.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If this could be of any assistance,

4 perhaps we could give lists of several hundreds of thousands of military

5 conscripts that every village and every street in Yugoslavia has. Several

6 hundreds of thousands of persons were mobilised during the NATO

7 aggression. It's as if you were providing the telephone directory, as a

8 secret document at that.

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let's move on.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. You keep referring to paramilitary formations. I claim that we

12 did not have paramilitary formations. We only had the official army and

13 police.

14 A short while ago, you explained that everybody who was mobilised

15 from the reserve force was a paramilitary, in your opinion; is that right?

16 A. Your forces were distinguished by the uniform they had, the three

17 of them; the paramilitaries, the police, and the soldiers. Although they

18 swapped the uniforms and there were multicoloured ones, but what we

19 considered as paramilitaries, they never changed their uniforms.

20 Q. I don't know who you consider to be what, but I claim that there

21 were no paramilitary forces. On the contrary: There were orders from the

22 Supreme Command that every paramilitary unit should be disbanded and

23 arrested immediately. Therefore, reservists cannot be considered --

24 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you're not here to give evidence now.

25 You can do that in due course. The witness has given his answer. Let's

Page 1318

1 move on to another topic.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. This is taking up a lot

3 of my time, his extensive answers, and I have to see whether I should

4 shorten something.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. The Prosecutor put a question when saying that they were told that

7 they should go to Albania. The Prosecutor asked, "Who told you?" The

8 witness did not answer that. The Prosecutor went on and said, "What were

9 you told?" And the answer he got was that they were told to go to

10 Albania. I'm going back to the Prosecutor's question that he did not

11 respond to.

12 Who told them to go to Albania?

13 A. It was the army, the police, and the paramilitaries who ordered

14 them and forced them to go towards Albania after their houses were raided

15 and looted and they were forcibly evicted. I'm saying this in accordance

16 with all the statements of thousands upon thousands of Albanians from

17 Mitrovica and from the rest of Kosova.

18 Q. If reality could be created through statements, it would look

19 different than it looks today.

20 Let us move on to another document now that was found underneath

21 some boards, and it was presented here as a revelation, something that was

22 discovered under very special circumstances, and these are very plain

23 lists of the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th Platoons, and the addresses and the

24 telephones of these persons are provided and that is only logical for,

25 say, the company commander to have if somebody gets killed or something

Page 1319

1 happens to such a person that the family can be identified. These are the

2 names of soldiers in the 1st and 2nd and 3rd Platoons respectively.

3 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, what is the question?

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What is the value of this document

5 that they had such difficulty in obtaining? This document contains

6 soldiers' names and their home addresses. What is the value of this

7 document?

8 JUDGE MAY: That's a matter which we will have to decide in due

9 course. But have you got any questions for the witness about it?

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it has to do with the fact

11 that he brought it as some kind of proof. What does this prove other

12 than, for example, that John Doe lives in such-and-such a street and that

13 his telephone number is such-and-such and they're going to call his mother

14 there and notify her at that address that he got killed if he gets killed.

15 In any army anywhere in the world, every soldier would give his address if

16 something happens to him so that his next of kin may be notified. So what

17 do you prove by this name and address?

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Now, what's the question?

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. My question is: What is the value of this document in the opinion

21 of the witness? Because he's the one who brought it.

22 JUDGE MAY: That's not a question for the witness. We're going to

23 have to determine what value it has, and no doubt the Prosecution will

24 address us on it in due course.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In response to the Prosecutor's

Page 1320

1 question as to how many houses and shops of Kosovo Albanians were

2 destroyed or set fire to, you said 9.550. Is that correct?

3 A. It's not. We're not talking about the houses of Kosova, but it's

4 just for the Mitrovica municipality, and that's 9.540. And we have

5 complete documentation, documents with -- accompanied by pictures and all

6 the statements of those involved.

7 Q. All right. All right. You said that that was the figure; right?

8 All right.

9 Do you know how many Serb houses, shops, and all the rest that you

10 have registered in respect of the Albanian victims were burned down,

11 destroyed, and looted? Do you have figures in that connection?

12 A. We don't have figures related to these facts because some Serbs,

13 as they left their houses, they set them on fire, whereas we got evidence

14 from people whose families, members of families have been killed and their

15 houses were burnt down.

16 Q. You claim, therefore, that the Serbs, as they were leaving their

17 houses, set fire to their own houses by themselves; right?

18 A. I said partly. According to many witnesses. If it wasn't like

19 that, they would not burn them, but they would stay there until they

20 reached some agreement with their owners.

21 Q. So again, through your witnesses, you are proving that Serbs set

22 fire to their own houses and to Albanian houses in Kosovo.

23 JUDGE MAY: That's a comment. Yes. You don't have to answer

24 that.

25 He's answered that.

Page 1321

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. I shall move on to the next subject, but please give short answers

4 and do not describe incidents that you have already described, because my

5 time will run out.

6 You have said that Latif Berisha, president of the DSK Mitrovica,

7 on the 24th of March, around midnight, that somebody barged into his house

8 and they took him out and killed him and that these people were masked

9 Serbs. How come you know that these masked persons were Serbs?

10 A. The daughter of Latif Berisha, who is a teacher of Albanian

11 language and literature, Fatime Berisha, at 1130, 2330, after the murder,

12 called the chairman of the Presidency, Ismail Katiqi, and informed him of

13 the murder, and he informed me afterwards, and she was in the room when

14 the Serbs entered and took the late Professor out and shot him in front of

15 his own door -- house.

16 Q. But they were wearing masks. How come you know they were Serbs?

17 A. We know because the people of the place where his house is

18 still -- still is - it's in ruins now - used to be inhabited by Serbs,

19 with the exception of four or five Albanian houses who never dared leave

20 their houses during the wartime until the Serbs came and forcibly evicted

21 them from their houses.

22 Q. Very well. Thank you very much. All right. Thank you. Thank

23 you.

24 You do not know whether they were Serbs. You said that Agim

25 Hajrizi, president of the trade unions, that he was also killed by Serbs.

Page 1322

1 How come you know that it was Serbs who killed him?

2 A. I know because his -- he, Agim, Adem Hajrizi's mother and his

3 11-year-old daughter were killed. His wife was at home with two other

4 children. They left. They got on the roof and waited there until the

5 murder was ended, was committed, and she gave evidence to the court and

6 people are being tried for that murder.

7 Q. All right. And does the witness know -- do you know how many

8 colleagues of yours, officials of the political party DSK that is headed

9 by Ibrahim Rugova, were the victims of political clashes and were the

10 victims of the terrorists of Hashim Thaci, to put it more precisely? Do

11 you know that?

12 A. I said even earlier that I think that all the victims or such

13 mystery cases of murders have been perpetrated by the secret Serb police.

14 Q. Excellent. Then you can answer my following question: How come

15 Rugova's functionaries are being killed now since there are no more Serbs

16 from June 1999?

17 A. It's not true that there are no Serbs in Kosova.

18 Q. That's another matter altogether. But how come after June 1999 --

19 1999, who is it that is killing Rugova's functionaries? Do you consider

20 that it is still the Serbs who are doing that? Do you still consider

21 that?

22 JUDGE MAY: Let's first establish that the witness accepts your

23 proposition that the functionaries are being killed now, insofar as this

24 is relevant. Now, do you -- wait a moment.

25 Do you accept this or not?

Page 1323

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Some were killed, but that doesn't

2 necessarily mean that they are functionaries.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. I'm going to read out a few names: Raci Ismet from Klina,

5 president of the municipal board of Rugova's party in Klina. Then Shaban

6 Manaj from Istok, the president of the municipal board of Rugova's party

7 in Istok. So that means local party heads, the heads of the Rugova party

8 in Klina and in Istok, those two examples. Then we go to Ismet Hajderaj

9 from Pec, member of the Presidency. Mustafa Xhemail is the next one, from

10 Pristina, member of the main leadership of Rugova's party. Then we have

11 Xhemail -- Xhevat Makolli, a close associate of Rugova's, also killed.

12 Muharem Jakupi, also a functionary in Rugova's party, the DSK, who was

13 also killed.

14 Do you know that this is being done by Hashim Thaci to weaken

15 Rugova and to frighten his supporters?

16 JUDGE MAY: A list has been put to you, Mr. Barani, and it's

17 suggested that these -- the names on it are the names of people who have

18 been killed, and it's also suggested that they were functionaries of

19 Mr. Rugova's party. Now, there are two questions there. Perhaps you can

20 deal with them. If you don't know, just say so.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Partially. Some of the names I

22 know, I know, and I know about their murders. But as I said earlier,

23 people are being held responsible for certain murders.

24 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, we've taken that point as far as we

25 can.

Page 1324

1 Yes. Have you anything else now for the witness?

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I do. Of course I do.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Do you know that, during the war, an assassination attempt was

5 made on life of Rugova himself?

6 A. I don't know, and I think it is not true.

7 Q. Do you know that he was guarded by our own police force to prevent

8 him from being killed?

9 A. No. I don't know that either.

10 Q. And do you know that he came to see me and that I sent him and his

11 entire family to Italy with nine family members of his for me to be

12 certain that Hashim Thaci wouldn't get at him and kill him, Hashim Thaci

13 and his terrorists?

14 A. Through the media, I have become informed that Ibrahim Rugova is

15 in Belgrade, but I don't know anything what happened afterwards.

16 Q. All right. I have already asked you about how you personally

17 stuck up the lists of Serbs to be executed on the library building and --

18 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you've heard what the witness said

19 about that. That is not what he said. We're not going back over it.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] He said he placed the names of the

21 perpetrators --

22 JUDGE MAY: [Previous translation continues]... please. Move on.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. I'll move on.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. You have given us a document of some kind, and you say of that

Page 1325

1 document that it is a list of Albanians which should be summarily

2 liquidated.

3 A. This is the list and this is what it said at the heading, that we

4 have submitted to the Court.

5 Q. Excellent. Are you conscious of the fact that this document is a

6 forgery?

7 A. No, I don't know. I clearly indicated where I found and from whom

8 I got it and that two, three persons in the list that I have submitted to

9 this Court are already shot now.

10 Q. Do you speak Serbian well?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Well, then, you probably aren't in a position to know that this

13 document could not have been written by a Serb. I'm going to ask you a

14 few questions now about it.

15 JUDGE MAY: Let's have the exhibit out. Exhibit number 27.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Gentlemen, I'm drawing your

17 attention in particular to the fact that in the translation, these

18 obvious, blatant facts -- there are blatant facts that indicate that the

19 document was not written by a Serb but you can't see this because it's

20 been translated without going into those facts.

21 JUDGE MAY: We have the original, too, plus a photocopy of that.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You have the original in the

23 Cyrillic script.

24 First, no Serb says "specialno" -- but says "specijalnu."

25 THE INTERPRETER: With a "j", interpreter's note.

Page 1326

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And when he goes to a doctor, a

2 specialist, everybody knows that he's going to a "specijalist" with a "j"

3 and not to a "specialist" just "i-a". And this is a mistake that no Serb

4 would ever make but it is a mistake that many foreigners make, especially

5 Albanians. They make that particular mistake.

6 Secondly, when you say "specialno jedinici" for -- referring to a

7 unit, no Serb would say that. He would just say "specijalnu jedinicu."

8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The case is wrong.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But most Albanians would say for a

10 "specialno jedinici."

11 THE INTERPRETER: So the case is wrong again, interpreter's note.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now what it should have said is

13 "specijalna jedinica," with a "j" and not without a "j". All the

14 mistakes that have been made in these few words are so obvious that there

15 is no child going to elementary school which would make the same spelling

16 mistakes in the Serbian language as have been made in this document.

17 Secondly, it says, "List of Siptars Who Should be Summarily

18 Liquidated." First, the word "pod" has been translated as "po," meaning

19 "accordingly." The word "p-o-d," "pod" and "p-o," "po" have two quite

20 different meanings, and once again, no Serb would write this. "Pod," the

21 word "pod" means "underneath" and not "po," which is "accordingly"...

22 "summarily." The "p-o" would be a different word. So there's just one

23 difference between those two words. Like the difference between the

24 sounds in lawyer and liar. The difference is just in one sound or letter,

25 too.

Page 1327

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: What you have said is very interesting. But you

2 have just given quite a lot of evidence. You must bring evidence to

3 substantiate what you just said. You can't give the evidence. I hope you

4 understand me, and I hope that in your defence you will be adducing

5 evidence to substantiate what you have just said.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is the piece of evidence

7 itself. Everything that I said is written here. This is the proof and

8 the evidence. It says "specialno jedinici."

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues]... you said

10 about the Serbian language and why it is not a genuine document. You need

11 to adduce evidence as to that. You're not a witness. You're conducting

12 your -- you're conducting your defence, and you may put certain questions

13 to this witness, but you cannot give evidence in this way, and I would

14 expect that you would adduce evidence in your defence at a later stage to

15 substantiate all of what you have said, and that would make it much more

16 credible to the Chamber.

17 Please continue.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just one more flagrant example,

19 referring to this text that you have submitted as an exhibit. It says

20 "likfidirati". That is something -- it is common knowledge that only

21 somebody speaking German would use the "v" -- the "f" instead of a "v."

22 In this case, it was an Albanian-speaking German. There is not one single

23 Serb who would write "likvidirati" with an "f" instead of a "v."

24 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, I think it's time for a question. The

25 suggestion appears to be that an Albanian -- I'm sorry. Yes, an

Page 1328

1 Albanian-speaking German wrote this document.

2 Now, Mr. Barani, can you help as to that or not?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, I said I don't know

4 the Cyrillic language, and the document was found by Ramadan Kelmendi in

5 the communal house of Mitrovica after the war. It contains 66 names, as

6 you can see for yourselves, three of whom have already been killed. I

7 can't give any other explanation.

8 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Would you please bear in mind the

10 fact that never, ever would a document, since Yugoslavia has been in

11 existence, could a document of this kind be issued by any kind of organ or

12 institution.

13 JUDGE MAY: No. This is your evidence, Mr. Milosevic. Now, move

14 on to another subject.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And there are not only these points

16 but there are essential contradictions which illustrate the fact that this

17 is a forgery. But never mind. You can judge this anyway you want. All I

18 want to say is that I'm impressed with the triumphant attitude with which

19 this was presented by the Prosecution.

20 JUDGE MAY: Let's move on.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And it doesn't mean anything or,

22 rather, it does. It means a forgery.

23 Next question.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Where, when, and to whom did you make statements about this whole

Page 1329

1 case? Because -- these are three questions. Would you answer each

2 individually. Where, is the first one, when, and to whom, the three

3 questions, did you make statements about what you have been testifying?

4 A. You mean the document?

5 JUDGE MAY: No. When did you first make a statement about this

6 particular case and to whom and where?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For the first time when I laid hold

8 of this document that you have in front you, I informed the council in

9 Pristina. Then, at a later phase, when ICTY investigators came to

10 Mitrovica, I attached this particular document to my statement.

11 JUDGE MAY: When was that, if you can remember?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was 2001. I can't give you a

13 precise date when the investigators came there. Maybe it was July,

14 August. I can't give you an exact date.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. What year?

17 A. I said 2001, when the ICTY investigators came to Mitrovica to

18 collect statements.

19 Q. August 2001, is that it? Was that your first statement, the first

20 statement that you gave to the representatives of this indictment of the

21 Prosecution?

22 A. I have made many statements on the war, so I can't remember each

23 and every date. But this particular one I remember because I made it to

24 the last investigators -- the investigator who came to Mitrovica in 2001.

25 I can't give you an exact date.

Page 1330

1 Q. Did you give any other foreigner, investigator before that, any

2 statements?

3 A. Many organisations that were interested in such cases, I have also

4 shown this document to them.

5 Q. All right. Various organisations. But you gave the investigators

6 a statement on the 20 something -- 20 of August, at least 2001. August

7 2001; is that right?

8 A. July, August must have been - I don't remember the date - 2001,

9 the last investigator that came to Mitrovica.

10 Q. In fact --

11 MR. NICE: If the accused would take the opportunity to read the

12 statements, I can give you the dates from them. The interview with the

13 ICTY investigator were on the 25th and 26th of August, and the statement

14 was signed on the 1st of September of last year.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. I'm just drawing your attention to the fact that in the indictment

17 raised in May 1999, statements were taken in August of 2001. And

18 generally speaking, I'm drawing attention to the way in which all this was

19 being done. I shall be finishing in a little while.

20 Just like NATO used terrorists in the war, this false indictment

21 is used for KLA witnesses.

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Now, Mr. Milosevic, you must stop making

23 speeches and just ask a question or we shall stop here.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no more questions.

25 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Wladimiroff.

Page 1331

1 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Thank you, Your Honour. We only have a few

2 issues to take up with the witness.

3 Questioned by Mr. Wladimiroff:

4 Q. Mr. Barani, yesterday you gave evidence about an incident at the

5 Friday marketplace on the 13th of March, 1999, in Mitrovica. Do you

6 remember?

7 A. Yes, I remember very well.

8 Q. All right. You told the Court that it was Serb police who caused

9 the explosion of bombs at the marketplace. You were questioned about that

10 by Mr. Milosevic himself. Do you remember?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. One question that was not put to you and I will put to you now:

13 Were you there when these bombs were ignited and exploded, and how do you

14 know it was the police?

15 A. In the statement, I said that three shells were dropped from the

16 police and the army from the Zvecan e Vogel village, and I was just

17 filming and photographing Kadri Kadriu, a well-known Albanian painter who

18 was shot dead by the Serb police a few days before that.

19 Q. Meaning you were present?

20 A. I was not present at the scene, but I heard whistling from the

21 place when I was at the mosque, and later on, I heard the detonations, one

22 after the other. Later, I learned that it had all happened in the market,

23 in the marketplace. I went out. I saw two workers, and we entered and

24 then we got onto a car which was accompanying the funeral, and we went to

25 Suhodoll i Poshtem village where he was buried. I gave the bag where my

Page 1332

1 camera was to a friend, and I went across the garden nursery and I went to

2 my office which was in the neighbourhood Qendra 1.

3 Q. Thank you. When questioned by the Prosecution about the actions

4 in Bair - or Bair, I don't know how you pronounce it - on the 26 or 27th

5 of March, 1999, it was put to you that you observed what happened with the

6 old paralysed woman and the two old men. Were you there or was this

7 incident reported to you?

8 A. No, I wasn't there, but it was reported to me later, two days

9 later. It was reported to me that four Albanians, three elderly men and

10 one woman, were killed there.

11 Q. Let me move on to your evidence on the two murders in the 7th of

12 September neighbourhood of Mitrovica. You told the Court about the murder

13 of three or four members of the Alushi family on the 28th of March, 1999.

14 Do you remember?

15 A. Yes, I remember very well. There were four members of the Alushi

16 family, the two sons of Alush Alushi, his brother, Fehmi, and his son.

17 They were shot at the yard of their house.

18 Q. Thank you. You don't need to repeat what I put to you. Let me

19 ask you the question. Am I right in thinking you said murdered by the

20 Serb police, and if so, how do you know? Were you present or was the

21 incident reported to you?

22 A. I did not say that they were -- they were killed by the Serb

23 police but by plainclothes Serb civilians. And it was reported to me that

24 -- by people who were there and who saw the scene, and I attended the

25 funeral.

Page 1333

1 Q. Mr. Barani, you have been reminded that you gave an earlier

2 statement to an investigator of the ICTY last year in August, and you said

3 you remember that. Is that correct? Yes or no.

4 A. There is no interpreting.

5 Q. Let me repeat the question. You gave -- you were reminded that

6 you gave an interview to an investigator of the ICTY in August last year;

7 is that correct? Yes or no.

8 A. Yes. To an investigator.

9 Q. Thank you. Now, I would like to ask you, would you describe

10 fighting, clashes, and killings between the KLA and the Kosovo authorities

11 in 1998 and 1999 as war?

12 A. The question is not clear to me. Are we talking about any

13 killings?

14 Q. Fightings, clashes, and killings between the KLA and the

15 authorities of Kosovo. Would you describe that as war?

16 A. On -- about these cases, about any killings, I have no knowledge

17 about these things.

18 Q. Let me read you a quote. According to your statement given in

19 August last year, you said, and I quote: "When I'm talking about the

20 start of the war in Kosovo, I would mean it started on the 26th of

21 November, 1997. On that date, the first bullet was fired back from an

22 Albanian against the Serbs."

23 A. Yes, that's true.

24 Q. I repeat the question. Would you describe fightings, clashes, and

25 killings between the KLA and the authorities of Kosovo in 1998 and 1999 as

Page 1334

1 war?

2 A. In my previous statement, I said that the first shot was fired on

3 the 26th in Vojnik, which is part of the Skenderaj municipality.

4 Q. That does not answer my question.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Evidently he is not understanding. You consider

6 that, Mr. Barani, to have been the start of the war, the firing of that

7 shot?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I consider it as the beginning of

9 the war, because from after that date, immediately on the 28th, during the

10 funeral of a teacher which was killed by the Serb police, members of the

11 KLA appeared openly, and from then, the war did not end up until the

12 peacekeeping forces entered Kosova. But --

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues]... he considers

14 that war. If you have another question, you can put it but it is rather

15 technical.

16 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I think it is, but it clarifies what I could not

17 find in his statement.

18 Q. I've got a further question, Mr. Barani. Did you have a weapon in

19 the spring of 1999, and if so, did you carry that weapon with you when you

20 were travelling around in the area?

21 A. I -- my only weapon was the camera, the pencil, and the video

22 camera.

23 Q. Thank you very much.

24 MR. NICE: Can I deal with a few matters quite quickly?

25 Re-examined by Mr. Nice:

Page 1335

1 Q. The Mr. Kelmendi from whom you obtained a document you've been

2 asked about, the document in Cyrillic, is he still alive, to your

3 knowledge?

4 A. Yes, he's alive. He lives in Mitrovica.

5 Q. You say that you provided this document, or you've been asked

6 questions about providing this document to another organisation.

7 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I have here what is, as it were, the

8 original that we have. The document is said to be a forgery. If the

9 witness would like to identify whether it's the first or second generation

10 of the document, then maybe it's a document that the Court would like to

11 retain, as the allegation of forgery has been made.

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

13 MR. NICE:

14 Q. Perhaps you would just like to look at it and tell us about.

15 Could you just look at this document, which I think you may have brought

16 with you when you came here. Is this the very document that was given to

17 you by Mr. Kelmendi or was it something that was copied from the document

18 given to you by Kelmendi, or can you not now be sure?

19 A. I'm sure that this document that this document that I'm holding

20 was given to me by hand by Ramadan Kelmendi. It's the same document.

21 Q. If you can hand that to the usher. That can stay with the Court.

22 MR. NICE: Your Honour, as to --

23 JUDGE MAY: Have we not seen this document before?

24 MR. NICE: I'm not sure that you've necessarily handled the

25 original itself because you had a photocopy to go on. But in any event,

Page 1336

1 now that it's asserted it's a forgery, it's good for the original --

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes. It will be exhibited.

3 MR. NICE: While I'm dealing with witness statements --

4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, the accused should see that document which

5 you've just produced.

6 There is a question of time. I would ask the interpreters if we

7 could sit a bit later. Some indulgence. Thank you.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE MAY: Not many minutes.

10 MR. NICE: While the witness is looking at that, I observe my

11 learned friend's, the amici's comment about the invalid woman. I checked

12 the record. I certainly didn't put it that he observed something himself.

13 The question was put neutrally about her.

14 As to statements, can I simply, rather, at this stage for

15 convenience, inform the Chamber that, in addition to the witness's

16 statements to the ICTY investigators, others of his statements to the

17 International Coalition for Justice and to OSCE have already been

18 disclosed to the accused weeks and months ago.

19 Can I deal with another administrative matter arising from

20 cross-examination without wearying you with any detail? The OSCE report

21 comes in two volumes of this size that I'm holding up. There will be OSCE

22 witnesses called. The status of the report is, of course, entirely

23 uncertain at the moment. I don't know one way or another whether we will

24 seek to put the report in. Probably not in its entirety for that would be

25 a very substantial document to lay before you being the conclusions of

Page 1337

1 another. Whether parts of it will be, as it were, adopted and dealt with

2 in evidence, I don't know. The document is available but its status is

3 probably something that ought to be considered quite carefully, given its

4 overall nature.

5 As to the cross-examination -- as to the cross-examination on the

6 basis of that report, and I'm not going to take you through the various

7 passages, but it would be my submission that the cross-examination has

8 been extremely selective and it will be necessary to look at passages in

9 full to take value from it.

10 Q. As to the lists, I wonder if you could help us with this, please,

11 Mr. Barani. We've seen two lists, in each case all names end in "I-C," in

12 "-ic" ending. Is that a name ending of Albanians or not?

13 A. Which names are we talking about?

14 Q. The list of soldiers, for example, that all end in "-ic." Is that

15 an Albanian name ending or not, or is it not significant?

16 A. It's not Albanian.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MR. NICE: That applies to both lists, as the Court will recall.

19 Again, just as a matter of checking the record, the witness was

20 asked, in relation to the declaration about employment, what he had said

21 about the significance of the reference in the declaration to language.

22 In his evidence, he did not ascribe any significance to that at all in his

23 evidence in chief.

24 Q. This is a general point, Mr. Barani: It's been suggested to you

25 that you are not telling the truth to this Chamber about your level of

Page 1338

1 knowledge of crimes by the KLA. What do you say about that?

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

3 A. Are we talking about crimes committed by the KLA?


5 Q. Yes.

6 A. Which ones?

7 Q. Just in general. It's been suggested that you are not being

8 truthful about your level of knowledge, having been asked questions by

9 Mr. Milosevic.

10 A. Regarding crimes committed by the KLA, I have no knowledge of any

11 being committed by an army which I only know of was out there fighting for

12 the protection of their own people from their total extermination.

13 Q. I have three more questions, I think. The man Kadriu, the

14 Albanian theatre manager, do you remember that?

15 A. Yes, I remember very well.

16 Q. By whom was he killed?

17 A. This is again a mystery murder, but it is presumed that at the

18 time when he was killed, which was the 13th when he was found dead in

19 Stari Trg, near the mine, and mutilated - his right ear was cut off - it

20 is presumed that he was killed by the Serb police.

21 Q. That's all I need to know. Thank you.

22 MR. NICE: Another matter of detail. Your Honour, there was a

23 suggestion that the revelation by this witness of his having been theatre

24 director is a revelation. It is in his witness statement.

25 Q. Two last questions. You were asked about listing names in the

Page 1339

1 library beside a list of -- names of perpetrators beside a list of those

2 killed. At the time that you listed those names, were Serbian police

3 inquiries into the deaths of Albanians being conducted in a thorough-going

4 way?

5 A. When I opened that exhibition at the city's library in Mitrovica,

6 I had the pictures of those who were killed and mutilated put up. At the

7 same time, many names of those who have perpetrated crimes.

8 Q. Yes. The question is: At that time, to your knowledge, were Serb

9 police investigating the deaths of Albanians in a thorough-going, in a

10 thorough way?

11 A. I have no knowledge that there has been such a thing. I'm talking

12 about investigations.

13 Q. Thank you. Last question touches on something that you dealt with

14 in earlier evidence, but this: You spoke in cross-examination of handing

15 your reports from time to time to the media. The word used was "the

16 media." To whom did you make your reports with your findings available

17 in the media?

18 A. When I talk about handing reports to the media, I'm talking about

19 the papers in Kosovo, Radio Deutsche Welle, and the Voice of America.

20 Q. Contemporaneously; that is, at the time of making those reports?

21 A. I -- I handed over copies of the reports, but the original was

22 retained with me.

23 Q. Did you hand those reports over at the time, at the time of events

24 and at the time you made the reports?

25 A. On many occasions, the report was written just hours after the

Page 1340

1 incident, but in other cases, it was written up two days later,

2 immediately after I received statement -- statements from witnesses. And

3 then as soon as the report was written, was handed over simultaneously to

4 the media. And I have all the -- possession of all the copies of these

5 reports with the details of who committed the crimes, the killings.

6 Q. There was just one supplementary question I should ask relating to

7 an earlier question I did. As to Albanian names, are you familiar

8 yourself with Albanian surnames in the Presevo valley? Just yes or no.

9 A. No.

10 Questioned by the Court:

11 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Mr. Barani, you said today, early in the

12 morning, that during the 15th and 17th of May, 1998, you had some official

13 meetings with KLA commanders. Do you remember?

14 A. I remember, but that was after the 15th and the 17th, but not in

15 September 1998.

16 JUDGE KWON: Sixteen Albanians were dead. Sixteen Albanians were

17 dead?

18 A. Yes, after the killing of the Albanians.

19 JUDGE KWON: Yes. My question is what do you mean by official?

20 In what capacity did you attend the meeting?

21 A. I took part in these meetings as the president of the Council for

22 the Protection of Human Rights and Freedoms in Mitrovica.

23 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Later on, you also testified that you met

24 them, the members of KLA or commanders of KLA, when you passed by the

25 village of Vaganice. What do you mean by "passed by"? Wasn't it that you

Page 1341

1 went to Vaganice specifically for the purpose of meeting them?

2 A. No. I wasn't going there to meet them, but as I was passing by to

3 -- to find out about the situation in other villages, what was happening

4 in other villages. But I have not gone specifically to Vaganice to meet

5 the KLA.

6 JUDGE KWON: If my memory's correct, I remember that you said that

7 you got the -- some information from members of KLA on what was happening

8 around the region. Am I right?

9 A. Yes, but we were talking about the region of Shala and not about

10 the village of Vaganice.

11 JUDGE KWON: Did you also give some information to the KLA members

12 about what you collected and information?

13 A. They were not interested in what information I had initially, but

14 I continued to collect information which was interesting to me, which I

15 was interested in, in order to compile the reports and then pass them on.

16 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

17 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Barani, that concludes your evidence. Thank you

18 for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You're free to go.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 [The witness withdrew]

21 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, is there something else you want to raise?

22 MR. NICE: Just something I wanted to mention, possibly

23 immediately after the witness has withdrawn.

24 JUDGE MAY: The videotape is running out. Can you deal with it in

25 one minute?

Page 1342

1 MR. NICE: Yes. All I was going to say is that it's forecast that

2 the first witness tomorrow will be a witness who will give evidence in

3 fully closed session.


5 MR. NICE: It's probable that the evidence of that witness will

6 last the full session, but it may be two. There are some associated

7 matters of a procedural nature that should be dealt with and, by order of

8 the Court, have to be dealt with themselves in closed session, but it's

9 only in relation to those matters that, at our application, the Court will

10 be in closed session. It would, of course, have been difficult -- I think

11 the Court knows the issues. It would have been desirable to have dealt

12 with them today, if possible, but if we've run out of time, it's not

13 possible, it will have to be tomorrow..

14 JUDGE MAY: We'll have to deal with them tomorrow.

15 Very well. Half past nine tomorrow, please.

16 Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.18 p.m.,

17 to be reconvened on Friday, the 1st day of March,

18 2002, at 9.30 a.m.