Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3659

1 Wednesday, 24 April 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The telephone doesn't work again.

8 So for a few weeks it worked normally, except for that one day when I drew

9 your attention to that, and since the beginning of this week, it hasn't

10 been working, any number I dial. I dial the same numbers that I've been

11 dialling over these past few days and weeks. The machine says that this

12 line is not authorised, not even for telephone calls within The Hague.

13 JUDGE MAY: We've made some inquiries. We understand the position

14 to be that you can telephone your associates in Belgrade, but we'll make

15 some further inquiries into that because we need to understand the

16 position fully.

17 Yes. We'll continue with the evidence.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's precisely who I've been

19 calling, my associates in Belgrade.

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Yes, Ms. Romano.

21 MS. ROMANO: The Prosecution calls Shefqet Zogaj.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't hear very well.

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Just a moment. Let the witness take the

24 declaration.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

Page 3660

1 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Thank you.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If you'd like to take a seat.


4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 Examined by Ms. Romano:

6 Q. Mr. Zogaj, can you please give to the Court your full name.

7 A. Yes. My name is Shefqet Zogaj.

8 Q. When were you born?

9 A. May the 24th, 1972.

10 Q. And where were you born?

11 A. In the village of Bellanice at Malisheva.

12 Q. So in which municipality is Belanica located?

13 A. Malisheva.

14 Q. What's your profession?

15 A. I'm a journalist by profession. I worked for the Rilindja

16 newspaper, teacher at the primary school Thismaich [phoen] Mali, and an

17 activist for reconciliation of feuds.

18 Q. Thank you. Mr. Zogaj, you were interviewed by members of the

19 Office of the Prosecutor on the 25th and 26th of April, 1999, and you gave

20 a statement while you were in Tirana. That's correct?

21 A. Yes, that's correct.

22 Q. And you were subsequently interviewed on the 12th and the 18th of

23 June, 2002 [sic], and you gave a second statement; is that correct?

24 A. In June 2001, I think.

25 Q. Yes.

Page 3661

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. And on the 3rd of February this year, you attend a meeting with

3 members of the Office of the Prosecutor and an appointed officer of the

4 Tribunal, and at that meeting, you were provided with a copy of your

5 statement in the Albanian language. You had an opportunity to review and

6 to confirm that its contents are true?

7 A. Yes, I have read it, made some corrections regarding the

8 translation made by the Tribunal.

9 Q. At that meeting, you made an addendum to correct the translations;

10 is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 MS. ROMANO: I would like at that moment to just introduce the

13 statement formally into evidence.

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let it be given an exhibit number.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. It will be Exhibit 108.

17 MS. ROMANO: The witness is a journalist working for a newspaper

18 and he has reported several materials during the conflict in 1998. He

19 describes the situation in Suva Reka from 20 March 1999, when the OSCE KVM

20 mission pulled out from Kosovo.

21 The streets were empty of civilian Albanians, but there was a

22 heavy presence of Serb police and military. On the same day, the Serbs

23 attacked villages in the area and people started to flee to safer places,

24 like Belanica, in his home village, Belanica.

25 He describes the situation in Suva Reka on the 25th of March,

Page 3662

1 1999, including the killings and burning of houses. The witness mentioned

2 victims and survivors from the massacre in Suva Reka by name. All the

3 villages in the areas of Suva Reka and Malisevo were attacked from March

4 1999 onwards. The inhabitants fled and gathered in a big field in the

5 centre of Belanica, so that by March 31st, there were about 80.000 people

6 there.

7 The witness also describes that on April 1st, Belanica was

8 shelled, and police, military, and paramilitary forces, numbering about

9 1.500, subsequently entered the village. The Serb forces forced people

10 from their houses, looted their homes, loaded the goods on the trucks, and

11 set the houses on fire. Many young men and women were taken to the school

12 and detained. No one has seen them since.

13 The witness describes that around 150 civilian Albanians were

14 killed that day. And they were then forced, the witness and his family,

15 to leave Belanica in a convoy. The convoy was directed into two

16 directions. One part of the convoy was headed via Blace-Suva Reka-

17 Albanian border, the other one via Malisevo-Orahovac-Albanian border.

18 During the trip, the convoy was stopped at a number of Serb checkpoints,

19 where the Kosovar Albanians were beaten, robbed, and insulted. Members of

20 the convoy, following the northern route via Malisevo, disappeared and

21 have not been seen since. After 30 hours, the witness describes that he

22 arrived at the Albanian border, where documents and vehicle number plates

23 were seized.

24 That's the summary of the evidence of the witness.

25 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

Page 3663

1 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. Now it works.

3 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

4 Q. [Interpretation] When did you graduate from the Pristina

5 university?

6 A. I graduated on December 1st, 1998 at the Prishtina university.

7 Q. You worked as a journalist from 1996; right?

8 A. Yes, I have been working, and I shall be working.

9 Q. When you say that you graduated from the University of Pristina,

10 could you briefly say how many Albanians studied together with you at the

11 University of Pristina?

12 A. I'm not competent to give a figure as to how many people studied

13 there. I can only speak for myself.

14 Q. All right. Together with you, there were -- or, rather, how many

15 were there in your group?

16 A. I think I gave an answer to this question.

17 JUDGE MAY: What do you mean by "group," Mr. Milosevic?

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I mean "group," the usual group of

19 students studying at the university. Those who attend lectures together.

20 JUDGE MAY: Do you understand what that question means?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We're not talking about a group here

22 but a number of over 20.000 students who, as of 1990, or from 1990 to the

23 end of the war, they followed study in private premises in Prishtina.

24 JUDGE MAY: We're not getting anywhere. We're not getting

25 anywhere. If you want to ask a precise question, Mr. Milosevic, do, but

Page 3664

1 at the moment, we're not getting anywhere.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's quite obvious, because this

3 student doesn't even know how many people he studied with.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. You said in your written statement, in paragraph 3, inter alia,

6 that as you were walking down the main road that passes through Rastane,

7 Studencane and continues to Orahovac, you saw a convoy of army and police

8 consisting of 14 tanks and armoured vehicles and that at that moment you

9 realised that something terrible would happen. You say that in Rastane

10 there was a police checkpoint. And the next sentence is: "The other

11 areas were controlled by the KLA."

12 A. I have not said that these areas were controlled by the KLA, and I

13 think you have -- I think the sentence from the beginning is not quite

14 correct. I think you do not understand what the sentence in itself

15 means.

16 JUDGE MAY: What does the sentence mean?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm referring to the OSCE mission

18 leaving Kosova on March the 20th, when the signal was given for the

19 mission to leave. And immediately after the departure of the OSCE

20 mission, Serbian police, military, paramilitary, and civilian Serb forces

21 assaulted the village of Rreshtan where, after 12.00, shelling --

22 continued shelling started against Studencan, Peqan e Vogel, Doberdolan,

23 and others. This is the truth.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Could you please just answer my questions, because the other side,

Page 3665

1 and you together with them, have opted for you not to testify but only to

2 give a written statement. You are just supposed to answer my questions.

3 And the sentence that you say that I've misquoted --

4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, it's not a matter for the witness how

5 he testifies. It's a matter for the Court. So it's not fair to put that

6 to him.

7 But, Mr. Zogaj, you can help us with this: What is being -- what

8 is being put to you is this sentence as it was read out. This is in the

9 English, which I'm reading from. You've described what happened in the

10 town when the observers withdrew. You left Suva Reka and were walking

11 along the main road and you saw this convoy of Serb army and police which

12 has been mentioned.

13 You say: "I knew then that something terrible would happen." It

14 says: "There was a Serb police checkpoint at Rreshtan." And then it goes

15 on: "The other areas were controlled by the KLA."

16 Now, that's the sentence you're being asked about, and perhaps you

17 can tell us what it means.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Naturally, the KLA occupied

19 its own positions, and it was formed to protect the people of Kosova,

20 whereas Serbian forces which the accused is -- and I hope the Tribunal

21 find him guilty on that --

22 JUDGE MAY: No. Please don't comment. Just give us your

23 evidence. Tell us what happened.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Immediately after the departure of

25 the OSCE mission, and I saw them -- when I left, myself I saw the Suhareke

Page 3666

1 city emptied of Albanians. Albanians were afraid of venturing into the

2 streets where only Serbian police with civilian -- on civilian vehicles

3 with no registration plates were. Some shops were open but there was

4 nobody buying there. Nobody ventured out to go and buy.

5 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Zogaj, we can read this. We have your statement.

6 Time is limited. You are being asked about the areas controlled by the

7 KLA. Now, is it right, as you say in your statement, that the other areas

8 were controlled by them? Is that right?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The regions as I have

10 mentioned there, yes.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. So what is unclear in that sentence then? From the beginning to

14 the very end, it says: "Other areas were controlled by the KLA." Full

15 stop. Your explanation was that I did not understand what it said there.

16 What is unclear in that sentence?

17 A. I don't understand this question at all. I don't know what you

18 mean by this.

19 Q. A little while ago, I quoted that sentence to you. It's very

20 short, only seven words, and it says: "The other areas were controlled by

21 the KLA." In response to that, you said that I did not understand the

22 sentence, and that that is not what you meant. What is controversial in

23 this sentence? What is there that cannot be understood? It simply says:

24 "The other areas were controlled by the KLA."

25 JUDGE MAY: The witness has agreed that that is what he said. He

Page 3667












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Page 3668

1 can't add anything. There's no point arguing with him about it. That's

2 what he said.

3 Now, ask him something else about it.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I asked because once he said that I

5 did not understand the sentence, and the second time he said that they

6 were controlled by the KLA.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. And then you say, since it is clear that these other areas that

9 you speak of were controlled by the KLA, that attacks began; that is to

10 say, a conflict between the army and the KLA. Is that right or is that

11 not right?

12 A. Conflicts were always caused by the Serbian army, police, and

13 paramilitary. And I've nothing to add to this.

14 Q. All right. I assume that that is your assertion, but it is

15 obvious that the conflict was between the Serb forces, as you call them,

16 and the KLA.

17 And then you move on to the next sentence, which says, and I am

18 quoting it quite precisely: "The population began to move out en masse

19 towards quieter places." That is to say, refugees were leaving the area

20 en masse, the area where fighting was taking place between the state

21 forces and the terrorist organisation of the KLA.

22 Is that the picture that you've been explaining?

23 A. These were not state forces, and these others were not terrorist

24 forces but defence forces, and I have nothing to add.

25 JUDGE MAY: You left out, Mr. Milosevic, the sentence before. The

Page 3669

1 sentence before was: "About 12.20 p.m., the first attacks began on the

2 villages of Peqan, Studencan, and Doberdolan. The population began to

3 move out en masse towards quieter places."

4 Who was responsible for the attacks?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Paramilitary forces, Serbian police

6 and military forces too, were responsible for the attacks. And the people

7 left the areas, were scared of a possible massacre, as it happened in

8 other places, as you know. And I have with me photographs of the Serbian

9 police and army, showing what they did in Kosova. I've got it here with

10 me.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I did not understand this.

12 JUDGE MAY: Just one moment so we can follow the position.

13 There were these attacks. Was there any defence or did the people

14 just leave?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The defence was conducted by the

16 KLA.

17 JUDGE MAY: And what's being put to you is that the people fled

18 because there was a conflict. Do you understand? That's the suggestion.

19 Now, is that right or not?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.

21 JUDGE MAY: The people were afraid because there was fighting

22 going on, and therefore they left; is that right?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 3670

1 Q. All right. We've clarified that. Now we can even skip some

2 questions in order to save time. It is obvious; refugees are leaving the

3 area of conflict, like anywhere else.

4 You say, towards the end of the first page:

5 "A large number of people went to Bellanice and Banje because

6 there had been no shooting or shelling at Bellanice. The heavy artillery

7 reached into the KLA-controlled area, and they also used military

8 aircraft, not only against KLA positions, but also against the civilian

9 population."

10 Did you see that?

11 A. Yes, I saw it. First of all, the Serbian fighters - that is, the

12 aircraft - observed the people, and then the next day there was shelling,

13 and in the evening, only a few metres above the ground. I saw -- I have

14 these notes. I have the time when they conducted these operations.

15 Unfortunately, more than a thousand documents were burned, and if they had

16 not been burned, I would be able to show you the photographs,

17 Mr. Milosevic.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, Your Honour --

19 JUDGE MAY: Just one moment.

20 Yes. What do you want to add?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to add something: that

22 some of the Serbian shelling on the village of Bllace, on the 28th of

23 March, in the early hours of the morning, a Serbian military aircraft

24 fired in the direction of the village but, fortunately, there were no

25 casualties. In these documents, I have the notes about this shell that

Page 3671

1 was fired on Bllace, and I can show you everything. Thank you.

2 JUDGE MAY: Which villages did you see shelled?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The village of Bllace.


5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I ask you something? Am I

6 carrying out this cross-examination or is it you, Mr. May?

7 JUDGE MAY: No. That's quite unnecessary. If you don't ask

8 questions which are clear, or if there are matters which the Chamber wants

9 clarified, they will ask questions. Now, if you want to ask questions, do

10 so now, or otherwise we'll bring this to a close.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And what was this question that I

12 put unclearly? Can you please tell me that so that I would be clearer

13 from that point of view.

14 JUDGE MAY: Your questions are much too long. They often contain

15 assertions or speeches or comment. Those will be stopped and clarified.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] All right.

17 Q. You spoke of the death of four persons: Ramadan Sukaj, Hafiz

18 Shala, Osman Elshani, and Albert, last name unknown.

19 A. Another name.

20 Q. And then you move on to say -- I'm reading what it says here in

21 respect of these four persons, these four men. And then you say that you

22 learned of this event. So my question is: You did not see this. You

23 learnt of this. You heard about it.

24 A. [Previous translation continues]... please. As a journalist, I

25 had the right to meet and to ask questions of people who had been evicted,

Page 3672

1 who had survived death, including Sejdi Bytyci, the history teacher.

2 Q. I'm not talking about your right to talk. I asked you a specific

3 question, a concrete question. You didn't see it; you heard about it. Is

4 that right? Yes or no.

5 A. As a journalist, I have the right to ask people questions, and

6 these things are true.

7 Q. That's another topic altogether. Of course journalists can talk

8 to people. That's not what I'm asking you. All I'm asking you is about

9 what you yourself said. You said you learnt of this event, and I'm asking

10 you about you just learnt of it or whether you saw it as well.

11 A. I didn't see it myself, but I have asked this person who had

12 survived this massacre.

13 Q. All right. Now, you mention attacks by Serb forces on the other

14 side, and you also mention the village of Dragobil. As you're a

15 journalist, I'm sure you knew everything that went on --

16 A. I didn't mention Dragobil.

17 Q. In the middle here of that page, which is page 4, it says -- and

18 it's that small paragraph exactly in the middle of the page:

19 "In Malisheva, a large convoy of Serbian police, military and

20 paramilitaries had reached Malisheva from the direction of Orllat,

21 consisting of 40 heavy military vehicles." I apologise to the

22 interpreters for going fast. "I saw this from the hill at Banje. I saw

23 these forces bombarding the villages of Banje, Dragobil, Gur I Bardh, and

24 the surrounding areas." "I saw that from the hill in Banje." That's what

25 it says. "I saw these forces bombarding the villages of Banje, Dragobil,

Page 3673

1 Gur I Bardh," as it states in the original, "and the surrounding areas."

2 So that's what I'm referring to: your mention of Dragobil and the

3 surrounding areas around Dragobil. So you did mention Dragobil. Yes or

4 no.

5 A. This is true. It's true. And it's on this very same day five

6 members of the Begaj family died, were casualties, one of whom these

7 casualties was fatal.

8 Q. I am asking you the following: As you're a journalist, and you

9 yourself say you know the circumstances that prevailed about the

10 situation, do you know that in Dragobil the KLA had its headquarters?

11 A. At what time period are you talking about?

12 Q. Well, I'm talking about the time period while the Verification

13 Mission was present too, of the OSCE, that time too, and during the time

14 of KDOM and later on, from the beginning of the war onwards. So it is the

15 period before the war and at the very beginning of the war as well.

16 A. I can't talk about the period before the war, but I can say

17 anything you like about the period during the war.

18 JUDGE MAY: You're being asked if you know that Dragobil was the

19 KLA headquarters. That's what's suggested. Can you assist us as to that

20 or not?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can answer. It was -- it was the

22 KLA's, but Serbian forces entered later.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. And do you happen to know that four contacts, with representatives

25 of the KLA in the village, in that village of Dragobil, there was a

Page 3674

1 forward representative of the Kosovo Verification Mission and KDOM? Did

2 you know about that? That was before the war too.

3 A. I don't know about this.

4 Q. Very well. On page 7 in my version of your statement, in the

5 middle of that page, before you go on to enumerate the names, you say the

6 following -- it is the middle paragraph: "From 1.00 to 7.00 p.m., we were

7 in the convoy, slowly advancing. The police had guided the population in

8 two directions. One was in the direction of Malisheva and Rahovec and the

9 other stream of people which we joined was in the direction of Bllace and

10 Suhareke."

11 I am quoting that paragraph so you know what my next question is

12 going to be about and what it refers to. And it refers to the following

13 sentence, which says: "At this moment, we learned of other people in the

14 village of Bellanice who had been murdered by the police, including the

15 following persons," and then you go on to enumerate. And you say again

16 that you did not see it but heard it. You learnt it from other people.

17 Is that correct or not?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, allow me to -- allow me

19 to say something about -- allow me to say something about what I

20 experienced myself, because we're bypassing this. Allow me to speak.

21 JUDGE KWON: I understand that you have a lot to say to us, but

22 please bear in mind that we have your statement and we have read it.

23 Please stick to the question. We will get on better with simple answers.

24 The question is whether you saw those killings or that's what you heard.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first murder that I saw was the

Page 3675

1 murder of Agim Bytyci from the village of Nishor, who was mentally

2 handicapped. The policeman killed them, and you are the man who gave them

3 the orders for this.

4 JUDGE MAY: Do not comment, Mr. Zogaj. You are here to give

5 evidence. Tell us what you saw and heard.

6 Now, you are being asked about the village of Belanica, and it was

7 put to you that this was something you learned. In your statement, you

8 list the people who were killed there. What you can tell us is how you

9 heard what the circumstances were of your hearing of their deaths.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] During the expulsions, the police,

11 army, and paramilitaries, while entering the village, killed immediately

12 the 73-year-old Izet Hoxha. I met his wife, Bahtishahe, who told me

13 this.

14 And then close to a shop called Vatra, there were four bodies

15 lying, which were not identified.

16 During the journey to Temeqin, there was a 40-year-old man

17 mutilated, and I saw this body with my own eyes. It was a male body.

18 And while I was in the village, I also heard of the deaths from

19 shelling of Nazlije Kryeziu and her daughter, 11 years old, Drita Kryeziu,

20 who were refugees from the village of Reti in Rahovec municipality.

21 These are some of the murders that I know of, and there were many,

22 many others.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. So the essence of my question was as follows, and I expected a yes

25 or no answer: What you describe here was not something that you saw but

Page 3676












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Page 3677

1 something that you heard about, learnt from others. Is that correct or

2 not?

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes. He's said that. There's no need to repeat it.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Now, on page 9, at the end of the first, what we heard at the

7 beginning in the summary of your testimony it says, and I'm quoting: "At

8 Kukes, in the following days, I heard from other people who had travelled

9 from Bellanice that on the 1st and 2nd of April, 1999, as a result of the

10 Serbian police action during those days, that up to 150 people were

11 killed."

12 So that's the whole sentence, from one full stop to another. "I

13 heard from other people." So once again, what you're testifying is not

14 something that you saw yourself but something that you heard from other

15 people. Is that so or not?

16 A. Yes, it is.

17 Q. Then you have another statement which was mentioned at the

18 beginning, and I'm just going to refer to that statement very briefly

19 because it's just a little different, slightly different from the previous

20 one. And in paragraph 3, at the beginning of that other statement, you

21 say: "According to my assessment, in Bellanice, on the 1st of April,

22 there were about 80.000 people."

23 Now, in your first statement, you wrote that in Belanica you saw

24 thousands of people. Now -- you said thousands of people to begin with.

25 Now, that figure in your second statement, testifying about the same

Page 3678

1 event, you have increased to 80.000 people. Do you have an explanation

2 for that? Why is there such a big difference between your first statement

3 and your second statement pertaining to one and the same event?

4 A. Yes. I will tell everything. From the beginning of May 1998, the

5 first wave of refugees reached Bellanice from Drenica, from Rahovec,

6 whilst on March the 20th, 1999, and I've got dates, hours, the time when

7 they arrived, which place they came from, what they said, and on the 29th,

8 30th, and 31st of March, the number reached 80.000. And I've got

9 documents and everything here. I've got them with me. I've got

10 everything here. Everything else was burned.

11 I also have a photograph dated 28 and 29 March which shows the

12 refugees.

13 Q. That's not what I asked you. I just asked you why there was such

14 a lot of difference between your first and second statements about the

15 same event. Because in one you say thousands and in the other you say

16 80.000. So can you give an explanation about that or not? But if what

17 you have just said is your explanation, then let it stand. Let that be

18 your explanation. It is sufficiently clear.

19 Now, at the end of that first page of your second statement, you

20 are talking about different events. And I'm not going to go into them now

21 because they're not the subject of my next question for you, but I'm just

22 going to quote the sentence I do wish to ask you about. You say: "I saw

23 that with my own eyes as an international journalist and not as a KLA

24 journalist."

25 Now my question is as follows: Were you a KLA journalist, in

Page 3679

1 fact?

2 A. No, I was not a KLA journalist. I was a journalist with the

3 Rilindja newspaper, and I've got all the notes pertaining to the Rilindja

4 newspaper here. And this -- the writing on the 5th of May, 1998, shows

5 this, shows best how Serbian police established a presence in the village

6 of Dulje and what they did to the civilian population. It is half a page

7 long and contains three photographs.

8 Q. My question was just whether you were also a KLA journalist,

9 because you wrote here that --

10 JUDGE MAY: He's denied it. He's denied it. You've heard what he

11 said.

12 Were you -- just so we can understand this, were you working full

13 time for the newspaper Rilindja or was it part time, sending in the odd

14 article?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the year 1996, and I possess

16 documentation on this, I've always been working for Rilindja. If you

17 wish, I can show them to you.

18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Zogaj, why did you add the phrase "not as a KLA

19 journalist"? What did you mean by this phrase?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've put it there simply to show

21 that we've been unable to go into areas controlled by the Serbian police

22 and the army but only in those areas that were controlled by the KLA.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. That's a very good answer. Now, you mentioned Rilindja. When did

25 you actually work for Rilindja? In what period? From what date to what

Page 3680

1 date? Approximately.

2 A. Yes, I do remember that exactly. From June the 20th, 1996 to the

3 present, to this very day. And I will probably die before I leave

4 Rilindja.

5 Q. Is -- was Rilindja published regularly throughout the time that

6 you worked for it? Did it come out on a regular basis?

7 A. Not on Sundays. There were occasions when you yourself stopped

8 its publication. You were the one who stopped the publication of Rilindja

9 many times.

10 Q. My question was whether Rilindja was published regularly

11 throughout the time. How many times did it not come out for any reason?

12 A. I cannot say how many times, because it's people in the

13 administration who should know these things.

14 Q. But you're a journalist working regularly. Now, do you say that

15 Rilindja was banned on several occasions? Is that what you're saying,

16 that some of the issues were banned?

17 A. You banned it.

18 Q. My question is: Are you claiming that certain issues of the

19 Rilindja were banned?

20 JUDGE MAY: He's said they were, and he's added that you banned

21 it.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand that.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Now, I claim that nobody banned the publishing of newspapers in

25 Kosovo. Now, my next question: Could you buy various newspapers in the

Page 3681

1 Albanian language almost at every corner? In Pristina, at least.

2 A. Only on -- on the corner inhabited by Serbs there was no

3 possibility of buying it; otherwise, yes. At that time, Rilindja, when I

4 first started work for it, was called Bujku, because in 1990, not only

5 Rilindja but all other Albanian media were closed down.

6 Q. Well, how could you work in a closed Rilindja from 1996 up until

7 the war if Rilindja had been closed down? How were you able to work for

8 it then?

9 A. Rilindja continued being published -- Rilindja continued being

10 published after some specific permission was granted. Otherwise -- at the

11 whims of yourself, your police and your Serbian forces could close it

12 down. The newspaper was under censure. And after that, only after that,

13 it was allowed to get through to the readers. Serbian police beat me

14 several times simply as a result of the fact of me having been a

15 journalist.

16 Q. I am hearing for the first time that censorship was introduced.

17 Now, how did this function? How did this work work? What kind of

18 censorship? Who was in charge of enforcing the censorship?

19 A. I do not understand how you could possibly say that it is the

20 first time you hear of any censure when every single order came from

21 yourself, beginning with the primary schools and up to the university,

22 from the poisoning, massive poisoning of over 7.232 pupils. They were not

23 allowed to write about it, about the truth, but we found a way of doing it

24 in order to defy the enemy. This is the truth.

25 Q. All right. You're not testifying about the uni-national poisoning

Page 3682

1 in Kosovo now, but about other events. And a moment ago you said that

2 Rilindja came out every day except Sundays. Does that mean that your

3 paper was censored every day when it went to print? Is that what you

4 claim?

5 A. Your Honour, I'm indebted to give him an answer to this, because I

6 was one of those who was poisoned on 23rd of March, 1990, and to this day

7 I continue to suffer aftereffects.

8 JUDGE MAY: Help us about the censorship of the paper. Can you

9 give us some idea of how often it happened, how many issues were banned or

10 how often they were banned? Can you give us a rough idea of what it was?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't give exact figures, because

12 it was banned on several occasions. And at the end, following the NATO

13 air bombardment against Serb or Slav targets, all newspapers were banned

14 and hundreds of people were beaten and persecuted by the accused.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Can you tell me this: During all the years that you worked for

17 Rilindja - even very roughly - for all those years, how many issues of the

18 Rilindja do you claim were banned, during all the years that you worked

19 for the newspaper? Give us a very rough estimate.

20 A. I'm not competent to give this.

21 Q. Now, as a journalist, do you know that in view of the Yugoslav

22 laws and the laws of the Republic of Serbia, censorship, that you're

23 referring to here, is illegal and impossible?

24 A. It was fully feasible by yourself. The newspaper was not

25 published on time, and several issues.

Page 3683

1 Q. It occurred with several issues over a number of years. Now, I

2 claim that they were not even several issues, but I don't think we'll be

3 able to establish that today. So let's go back to your own statement.

4 On page 3 of your second statement, you go back once again to the

5 subject that is actually the substance of your statement, because you

6 say:

7 "On the 30th of March, I personally saw 44 armoured vehicles

8 belonging to the Serb police and army which had arrived from Caralluka as

9 reinforcements to the already-existing units in --"

10 A. [Previous translation continues]... please.

11 Q. Could you let me read the whole of the quotation out first,

12 please.

13 Now, from there, as well as from their positions in Caralluka, in

14 the Malisevo municipality, they fired in the direction of Terpeza,

15 Ladrovac, Senik and Banja, also Dragobil. The units attacked these moving

16 targets.

17 Now, you are talking about reinforcements, the reinforcements

18 coming to be reinforcements to the police and army forces in the Dragobil

19 area, which was where the KLA had its headquarters, and the conflicts

20 going on there. Now, from what you're saying, you're clearly defining

21 conflicts between the forces of the defence of the country, on the one

22 hand, and the terrorist KLA organisation on the other. Is that true or

23 not?

24 JUDGE MAY: If you ask questions in that form, you know you will

25 get an answer denying that these are organisations as you describe them.

Page 3684

1 There's no point with witnesses trying to make your points. It's a waste

2 of time. If you want to ask if there was a conflict, do, but no point

3 making speeches.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. And do you know that the American representative for the Balkans,

6 Robert Gelbard, defined the KLA as being a terrorist organisation in

7 February 1998?

8 JUDGE MAY: It's not a matter for the witness how he defined it.

9 Now, help us with this: Was there a conflict at the time that

10 you're talking about, when, you say, the Serb police and army were seen by

11 you coming to reinforce troops in Malisevo and firing, as you describe it,

12 as they were moving along? That's what you describe in your statement.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is true. They did not

14 fire in the direction of the KLA fighters, but against civilian targets,

15 where there were killings from the shelling. This is the truth.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. If that is true, that what you've said, how come it says at the

18 end of the page:

19 "The KLA --" I'm quoting. I'm quoting every word. "The KLA had

20 positions in villages such as Bllace, Gallusha, which covered three

21 villages: Peqan, Sllapuzhan, Semetishte. In addition to that,

22 Doberdolan, and in the mountains, in the municipality of Suva Reka,

23 Milanovic, Dragobil, again Dragobil, and Gajrak, in the municipality of

24 Malisheva."

25 So you have been talking about here positions of the KLA, where

Page 3685












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 3686

1 you say that it was the army that was firing at civilians. You said

2 this. And again you refer to Dragobil in this set of villages where you

3 speak of the entire area in which there were KLA units. And then the

4 paragraph says: "The KLA had its positions," et cetera, et cetera.

5 Doesn't this deny what you've been saying all along, your very own

6 statement?

7 A. [Previous translation continues...] had to do with kilometres. I

8 will answer about Malisheva here. And I said before, and I'll say it

9 again: The KLA positions were not attacked. The civilian population was

10 attacked from a distance. And as for the other parts of Suhareke

11 municipality I mentioned - and I didn't mention the names of the villages

12 because they're not available to me - it is true that the KLA was staying

13 there and that it fought to protect the civilian population for about ten

14 days. But it was impossible to defend what is called the Pagarushe area,

15 around Dragobil and Caravrana, and Serbian police and paramilitaries went

16 in and plundered and burned everything that was Albanian there. And in

17 the end, the entire population took shelter in Bellanice. That is the

18 story.

19 Q. All right. That means that you are now asserting, in terms of

20 what you said just now, that the KLA was fighting to protect civilians.

21 That's what you said. And a little while ago, you said that the army and

22 the police did not attack the KLA. Does that mean, on the basis of your

23 statement, that the KLA was shooting at the army and the police that was

24 not attacking the KLA?

25 A. Do you think that they should all be killed and people should just

Page 3687

1 stand by and have all the Albanians killed? That was why the KLA defended

2 the civilian population. There was no army that kills the population,

3 apart from the Serbian army and police.

4 Q. And they didn't attack the KLA. That is your assertion. Yes or

5 no.

6 A. The population was attacked with tanks and with cannon, and then

7 the KLA entered this melee too.

8 Q. All right. All right. You have given a sufficient explanation in

9 terms of this particular logic of warfare.

10 Let's go back to your professional work, because you say that you

11 looked at things as an international journalist. What is this

12 international newspaper that you worked for?

13 A. It's not an international newspaper. I said that -- I mentioned

14 I'm a member of the International Association of Journalists, based in

15 Brussels, and here is the press card that I have. It's not a newspaper;

16 it's an identity card. Here it is, international press card.

17 Q. All right. So you didn't work for any international newspapers,

18 not a single one. I mean, independently of your membership card, I'm

19 asking you whether you worked for an international newspaper.

20 A. I didn't work for an international newspaper. I'm a member of the

21 International Association of Journalists. I worked for Rilindja, and I

22 think that the Federation of the International Association of Journalists

23 takes care of journalists' rights, and Rilindja is a member of this

24 association.

25 Q. I'm not questioning that at all. I just asked you whether you

Page 3688

1 worked for an international newspaper, and I got an answer, and there is

2 no need to go into any further explanations.

3 You wrote that you were on a commission of the Crisis Staff. In

4 which capacity were you on this commission? As a member of the KLA or

5 not?

6 A. He always mentions the KLA, and you never mention your own

7 forces. I can't give an answer to this.

8 JUDGE MAY: Don't argue. Take no notice of the comment. You were

9 asked about the commission, and at what capacity were you on the

10 commission? Were you on it in any particular capacity or not?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What kind of capacity? What

12 commission here? As a journalist, I have my duty to my homeland, to go to

13 crisis areas.

14 JUDGE MAY: I take it that there's a reference in your statement

15 to an anticipated flow of people coming into Belanica, and you say: "We

16 created a commission of the emergency council for Belanica, which was

17 supposed to find shelter for the incoming people." There may be some

18 other references intended, but as far as that's concerned, were you on it

19 in any particular capacity or were you just trying to help?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was only trying to help.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. You wrote here that you gave instructions to the locals. On the

23 basis of what did you give instructions to the locals?

24 A. I don't recollect writing this, but I can say that in the village

25 there was a commission formed for accommodation of these people who

Page 3689

1 arrived, and I kept track of events as they happened, and I wrote about

2 them in the newspaper, and here are my articles for Rilindja.

3 Q. All right. That means that on that commission, you were in the

4 capacity of some kind of a volunteer, if I understand you correctly. They

5 admitted you as a voluntary member of the commission?

6 A. Everybody helped each other, and if the commission hadn't been

7 formed to help the needy --- as we say in Kosova, this commission was very

8 necessary. When somebody is in need, then this need has to be met, if it

9 is possible. If it's not possible, then, in the case of these people who

10 had been expelled, people were left outside in the rain and the snow,

11 without food. And this happened. People were outside in the hills.

12 Q. I see that you write about the traffic police having helped you.

13 That is towards the end, on page 7. "Fifteen minutes later, the vehicles

14 of the traffic police escorted us to the centre of Prizren," et cetera,

15 et cetera. It seems that the traffic police helped you more than that

16 commission of yours. Is that right or is that not right? Because you say

17 that you gave instructions that they should enter vehicles, that they

18 should get out of vehicles, et cetera, et cetera.

19 A. Where was this traffic police? In which place?

20 Q. Here, in your statement. They escorted you to Prizren. They

21 helped you go to Prizren. That is what you wrote in your own statement.

22 A. As I wrote, and I will say clearly:

23 After the police expelled us from Bellanice, by force - beating

24 people, killing people - on the road, at the village of Lubishte, in the

25 evening, we were stopped by the traffic police, and they told

Page 3690

1 us -- asked us where we were from - and we were the first vehicle in the

2 convoy - and we said that we had come from Bellanice. And the police and

3 the paramilitaries and others, in the yard of the police station of

4 Lubishte, were singing Chetnik songs. The traffic police told us, "In

5 that you come from Bellanice, and there are a lot of you, you must wait a

6 little here, and from here we will escort you as far as the road to Zhur

7 to go to Albania."

8 I have told the Tribunal before that I'm grateful to these

9 policemen because the others didn't give any kind of help, but you can't

10 say that these police helped more than the village commission did. You

11 absolutely can't say that. This is not true.

12 Q. All right. You are here in the position to say what is true and

13 what is not true. Since you're a journalist and since you followed events

14 closely, are you familiar with the following: On the 29th of March, 1999,

15 when on the local road between your municipality, that is to say Suva Reka

16 and Orahovac, in the village of Rreshtan, in the territory of your

17 municipality, that is to say Suva Reka, Albanian terrorists shot at

18 members of the police who were in a GAZ official vehicle? This was on the

19 20th of March, 1999; that is to say, before the war started. Are you

20 familiar with this event, with the fact that it took place?

21 A. The war was already happening. And what you say, indeed there

22 could have been people killed by Serbian forces. And you have denied

23 this. You have never told the media that people were killed in Rreshtan

24 and other places.

25 JUDGE MAY: No. We're getting some way from the matter.

Page 3691

1 Mr. Milosevic, you've had past the hour now. If you have another

2 question, you can ask it, or otherwise that's the end of your

3 examination.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I have many more questions,

5 but I think that part of this time what you restricted to one hour was

6 used by you, too, and also in part by the witness with his unnecessary

7 explanations. I think that you could extend this time to me, this time

8 that you had economised with to such an extent.

9 JUDGE MAY: You've had more than the hour to allow for that. Now,

10 do you want to ask him one more question or not?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Of course I do. How would I not

12 want to?

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. So you don't know anything about this although you're a

15 journalist. And are you aware of anything in the territory of your

16 municipality of Suva Reka of any crimes committed by the KLA?

17 A. What happened?

18 Q. Over Serbs, over Albanians, and the rest of the population.

19 A. Why don't you mention the murders that you committed yourself?

20 JUDGE MAY: No. That's not an answer. Now, the question you were

21 asked was: Are you aware of any crimes committed by the KLA in the

22 municipality of Suva Reka?

23 Now, what's your answer to that?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know of any cases.

25 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

Page 3692

1 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I would

2 just like to try to explain a few facts which I believe remained unclear,

3 of course bearing in mind the written statement only.

4 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

5 Q. Mr. Zogaj, when you gave this statement of yours, as far as I can

6 see according to these minutes, you started on the 20th of March, 1999.

7 Is that right, the 20th of March?

8 A. Yes, that's true.

9 Q. And a little while ago when you talked about all of this, first

10 you came to 11.30 and then you answered what you answered a little while

11 ago to Mr. Slobodan Milosevic, and then you said at twenty past twelve the

12 first attacks began against the villages, and then you mentioned the

13 villages.

14 So it was on the 20th, not the 25th of May that these attacks

15 occurred against these villages. That's what you said here, and very

16 precisely at that, at twenty past twelve.

17 A. That's not true. You haven't understood. On the 20th of March,

18 at 12.30, whereas on the 25th, that is when the massacre at Suhareke took

19 place when hundreds of people were killed. And from 1998 to 1999, 522

20 people were killed in Suhareke. You've mixed this up.

21 Q. Mr. Zogaj, believe me, that is not what I asked you. I just have

22 your own statement in front of me. On the 20th of March, and now you say

23 quite precisely on the 20th of March what happened at 11.30 and then what

24 happen at 12.20, and that the first attacks started. That is what you

25 already explained in response to -- is it the way it's been written here

Page 3693

1 or is it not?

2 A. Yes. It was on this date.

3 Q. So it's on the 20th, not the 25th. Thank you.

4 A. On the 20th of March. I said at the beginning, I will say it

5 again; this happened on the 20th of March. Don't get me confused.

6 Q. I'm not getting -- it's not my intention at all to get you

7 confused. Now, in the first paragraph of your statement, you mentioned a

8 great many villages. You mentioned that on that day, the Serb forces

9 attacked several dozens of villages, and you mentioned a great many of

10 these villages. Are all of these villages villages that were under the

11 KLA control and protection?

12 A. These villages were attacked. Of course the KLA was there. But

13 in the end, all these villages were burned by the barbarians, by

14 criminals. That is the truth. And I have photographs of the burned

15 houses and the destroyed mosques which were destroyed by the Serbian army

16 and police. This cannot be avoided. This is the truth. This was seen by

17 the OSCE mission, and it was also seen immediately after the war, on the

18 12th of June.

19 Q. I would just kindly ask you to deal with the things that are here

20 in your statement. I would just like to complete this subject by the

21 following: You also said, in relation to the 20th of March, and only then

22 do you move on to the 25th of March, you say that there were artillery

23 attacks that the KLA held by the Serb forces and then aircraft were used,

24 and that was also on the 20th of March, according to your statement.

25 A. I didn't say on the 20th of March. Please look at it properly. I

Page 3694












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 3695

1 said during the time of the OSCE mission. It's all written here. I've

2 also written the number of this missile which was 1.5 metres with the year

3 of when it was produced.

4 Q. At any rate, it was before the 25th. All of this was before the

5 25th of March.

6 A. No. This -- this happened on the 28th. On the 28th this

7 happened.

8 Q. Yes, precisely. That's how I'd like to finish. Today is the

9 first time you mentioned the 28th of March. The 28th of March and the

10 aeroplane were first mentioned by you today. How do you explain that?

11 A. It's not the first time. I mentioned it before. I mentioned it

12 before.

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm not going to

14 insist. You have his previous statement, and this would conclude the

15 first part of what I wanted to deal with. Now the second statement, just

16 one thing.

17 Q. The second statement that was given on the 12th and 18th of June,

18 2001. The first, second, third, fourth -- fifth paragraph of the English

19 version. You said here that in 1998, in 1998 - that's what it says in

20 your statement - there were refugees in your village from the area of

21 Drenica. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes. From the village Llapushnik, from Vukovfc, Orllat, and

23 others. I can mention all by name.

24 Q. How many refugees were there then in 1998?

25 A. One to ten hundred. They're all refugees. All are refugees. So

Page 3696

1 regardless of the numbers, one, two, all are refugees.

2 Q. How many people left Drenica then? I agree. In 1998, Drenica was

3 under whose control? Was all of Drenica under KLA control then?

4 A. No, because Drenica is not 100 or 200 metres. It's a wide area,

5 and the KLA could in no way control the entire territory given the

6 presentation of Serbian forces for years on end; not on that particular

7 day but for years on end. Kumarani was also under the Serbian police and

8 army. People were always beaten up and there was a lot of plundering.

9 And one of those people -- I was one of those people. I was taken by the

10 police in 1994 and possessions were taken off me.

11 Q. I'm interested in 1998. There were refugees who came to your

12 village. At that time, due to the conflicts that were taking place

13 between the KLA and the Yugoslav army or police, were people moving to

14 more peaceful areas? Yes or no. And let us conclude with that.

15 A. No one in Kumarani was. There were only Serbian tanks, police,

16 army, and the paramilitary. The population had to go somewhere for safe

17 shelter, and that's why they sought quieter spots. And if you want to

18 confirm whether the people left or not, let me tell you what happened

19 earlier, not on that particular day alone, because I went through that.

20 And if you're not interested, I'm not interested either.

21 Please, Your Honour.

22 Q. Sir, I am certainly interested in that, but here we are dealing

23 with your statement only. We cannot deal with things that are not

24 contained in your statement. Thank you.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

Page 3697

1 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Any re-examination?

2 MS. ROMANO: Yes, Your Honour, just one question.

3 Re-examined by Ms. Romano:

4 Q. Mr. Zogaj, in your statement --

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. In your second statement, you said that because of the shelling of

7 the above-mentioned villages, and you mentioned several villages, from 20

8 March on, the villagers start to flee to Belanica. I want to clarify,

9 Mr. Zogaj, one matter.

10 The villagers, they fled because of the attack, because of the

11 shelling and the actions of the Serbian forces that you described, or the

12 villagers left because of the subsequent fighting between the -- that

13 happened between the Serb forces and the KLA that was defending the

14 village?

15 A. You said on March the 20th. The civilian population did not leave

16 on March the 20th. But from March the 20th, people reached Bellanice

17 because it was a quieter place. And the whole area was in flames. Basa

18 Hoxhaj was in flames. There was killing. There was pillaging. Serbian

19 police and army went into the villages with heavy vehicles.

20 Q. So Mr. Zogaj, I want a clear answer. Between the two scenarios

21 that I gave to you, that they were fleeing because of the attacks of the

22 Serbian force or the actions, or they were fleeing because there was

23 fighting between the KLA that was defending the village and the Serb

24 forces, what was the reason that they left?

25 A. At Bellanice on April the 1st, there was no KLA. There were no

Page 3698

1 KLA positions. There never have been. I can say this with full

2 responsibility.

3 Q. Mr. Zogaj, you're not understanding the question. The question is

4 that in your statement you said that several villages were attacked from

5 20 March on and that the villagers started to flee towards Belanica. I

6 want to know what is the reason why the villagers started to go to

7 Belanica. Was it because they were afraid, or they were leaving because

8 of the attacks or because of the fighting between the KLA and the Serb

9 forces?

10 A. In the beginning, in March, a number of the civilian population

11 left Suhareke. On the 25th of March, immediately after the NATO

12 bombardment against Serbian targets in Kosova and Yugoslavia, the civilian

13 population in Suhareke was in a miserable situation from the early hours

14 of the morning onwards, and this continued for days on end. Other

15 witnesses have testified to this as well. From this day, they came into

16 Bellanice.

17 Q. Concentrate on the question that I'm making. What was the reason

18 that the villagers left and they start going to Belanica? What were they

19 afraid of? They were afraid of the attacks, or they were afraid about the

20 fighting between the KLA and the Serb forces?

21 A. The reason was because they found themselves being targets of

22 continuous onslaughts, and that's why they came to seek shelter in our

23 village. Whereas the KLA, which was protecting us, finding it impossible

24 to defend its positions, withdrew tactically into other villages. And

25 that is how the population at Bellanice came to find itself at the centre

Page 3699

1 of Serbian police and army attacks.

2 Q. My last question: You say that the reason was because they found

3 themselves being targets -- being targets of continuous onslaught. Who

4 was doing that?

5 A. The civilian population? The civilian population was always the

6 target of the police and the Serbian army. Beginning at 11.00 on the 1st

7 of April, the situation was very desperate.

8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Zogaj.

9 MS. ROMANO: No further questions.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Zogaj, that concludes your evidence. Thank you

12 for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You're free to go.

13 We'll adjourn now for half an hour.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

15 [The witness withdrew]

16 --- Recess taken at 11.02 a.m.

17 --- On resuming at 11.32 a.m.

18 [The witness entered court]

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.


21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

23 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24 JUDGE MAY: Thank you very much. If you'd like to take a seat.

25 Examined by Ms. Romano:

Page 3700

1 Q. Mr. Kuci, can you please give the Court your full name. Excuse

2 me. Do you want to put on your headphones?

3 A. [In English] I do understand. [Interpretation] My name is Osman

4 Kuci.

5 Q. When were you born, Mr. Kuci?

6 A. I was born in 1966, in Suhareke.

7 Q. And Suva Reka is located in which municipality?

8 A. It is a municipality in its own. It belongs to the Prizren

9 region.

10 Q. Are you Albanian?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And what's your profession?

13 A. I'm an interpreter from English into Albanian.

14 Q. Mr. Kuci, you were interviewed by members of the Office of the

15 Prosecutor on the 27th of May, and you gave a statement at that time; is

16 that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you were also interviewed on the 14th of June, 2001, and you

19 gave a second statement?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. On the 3rd of February this year, you attended a meeting with

22 members of the Office of the Prosecutor and an appointed officer of the

23 Tribunal, and at that meeting you were provided with a copy of your

24 statement, of the two statements, in the Albanian language; is that

25 correct?

Page 3701

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you had an opportunity to review and to confirm that the

3 contents are true?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Mr. Kuci, just in order to correct a discrepancy between your two

6 statements, can you please clarify to the Court: Which date did you leave

7 Kosovo? Is it 27th of March or 27th of April, 1999?

8 A. 28th of March, a Sunday.

9 Q. 1999?

10 A. 1999.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MS. ROMANO: I would like to submit the statement into evidence.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Prosecutor's Exhibit

14 109.

15 MS. ROMANO: Thank you.

16 The summary of the witness's testimony is as follows: The witness

17 worked for --

18 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Wladimiroff is on his feet.

19 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Yes, Your Honour. I've got a very brief issue

20 for a clarification. Are the attachments a part of the statement which is

21 tendered, or not?

22 JUDGE MAY: The practice has been to admit those too, with the

23 statements.

24 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I just wanted to be sure about that. Thank you

25 very much.

Page 3702


2 MS. ROMANO: So the summary of the witness's testimony is the

3 following:

4 The witness worked for the USKDOM and the OSCE-KVM mission in Suva

5 Reka as an interpreter from November 1998 to March 1999. During this

6 time, he saw a number of villages around Suva Reka that had been

7 destroyed. Soon after the OSCE evacuated Suva Reka on 18 or 19 March

8 1999, the witness saw various military vehicles and materiel in the area.

9 The witness lived close to the Balkan Hotel, which the Serb forces used as

10 their headquarters. He observed the VJ wearing green camouflage uniforms

11 and the MUP wearing blue camouflage uniforms.

12 On the 27th and 28th March, 1999, the witness and many others were

13 forced to leave their homes. The MUP told them to leave within five

14 minutes or they would be killed. A convoy of cars and tractors was formed

15 in Suva Reka, which headed in the direction of Albania via Prizren. En

16 route, the witness saw houses burning. He also saw a number of Serb

17 checkpoints and witnessed Serb police going up and down the convoy,

18 robbing people. A uniformed policeman threatened to kill the witness

19 unless he gave the police money. The witness also saw police stealing

20 vehicles and forcing the people to continue on foot. He was told by Serb

21 police to go to Albania. "That's your country." At the Albanian border,

22 the witness had to hand over his documents and vehicle licence plates.

23 That's all.

24 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

25 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Page 3703












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Page 3704

1 Q. [Interpretation] When did you graduate from university?

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for the accused.

3 A. I have not attended university. I attended the higher pedagogical

4 school at Prizren.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please be asked to use the

6 microphone.

7 JUDGE MAY: Your microphone, Mr. Milosevic. You're being asked to

8 use the microphone. Is it on? If you speak --

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, it's on. The light switched

10 on.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. I didn't hear your answer. You said that you graduated from the

13 higher pedagogical school in Prizren; is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In what year?

16 A. 1988 -- in fact, 1987.

17 Q. And after that, you spent your entire time living in Suva Reka, is

18 that right, except for that short time you spent in Slovenia; otherwise

19 you were living in Suva Reka? Is that right?

20 A. Yes, in Slovenia and the military service.

21 Q. You say that you and your brothers, between 1990 and 1998, opened

22 a shop in Suva Reka, and that later on you opened a bar, a coffee bar?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, linked to your business with respect to the shop and your

25 catering establishment, the bar you worked in, was that in order? Did

Page 3705

1 everything function normally?

2 A. No, not normally but in rather difficult situations.

3 Q. So why was it rather difficult? You say you had a shop. You had

4 a bar afterwards. Now, what was difficult about the situation then?

5 A. There were difficulties coming as a result of the administration

6 of the time, the taxes, financial police. All of them created

7 difficulties for people in small businesses like myself and my brother.

8 And we were unable to operate as the result of the administration of the

9 time, which created a number of problems and obstacles for us.

10 Q. But as far as I'm able to understand, you did work throughout that

11 time.

12 A. We worked only to the extent that we could survive.

13 Q. But that was the same for everybody, owners of shops or anybody

14 who had any other business. But did you have a special problem perhaps

15 that was not shared by everybody else in the country? When you -- or we

16 talk about taxes and financial inspection and so on and so forth, did you

17 encounter any specific problems?

18 A. Yes, mainly having to do with taxes and inspections from the

19 financial police, which very often worked outside their remit. They

20 wanted bribes, which we gave them. And police which were sheltered near

21 our -- in a hotel near our shop, they often came and got commodities which

22 they did not pay for.

23 Q. Were there shops and bars like that owned by Serbs or were they

24 just own by Albanians, Albanian proprietors?

25 A. In that area, there were no shops where Serbs worked. There was

Page 3706

1 only my shop and then that is what I can answer for.

2 Q. So you don't know about any others.

3 A. I was not interested in the others.

4 Q. All right. We're not going to dwell on that then. When did you

5 start working for the Kosovo diplomatic mission?

6 A. As I've said in my statement, that was in 1998. October, November

7 1998.

8 Q. Yes. But later on, you began working for the OSCE mission. What

9 I'm asking you is how long you worked for the diplomatic mission before

10 you became employed by the OSCE.

11 A. After two months, the diplomatic mission was transformed into the

12 OSCE mission in Kosovo.

13 Q. So for those two months, you worked for the American Diplomatic

14 Observer Mission; is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And later on, when it became integrated with the OSCE mission, did

17 you continue working for the American part of that observer mission?

18 A. When it was transformed into the OSCE, there was no American

19 part. It was only known as the OSCE.

20 Q. In the American observer mission, the one you worked for before

21 working for the OSCE, were there you the only interpreter or were there

22 other Albanians working as interpreters with the mission?

23 A. At Suhareke, there were about 25 interpreters.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I should like to draw the attention

25 of the technical booth to the fact that I am getting interference between

Page 3707

1 the two channels, the Albanian channel and the Serbian channel. So there

2 seems to be a technical problem. This is something that I haven't had any

3 trouble with so far.

4 JUDGE MAY: We'll see if that can be put right.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm going to listen to the channels

6 and see what I'm getting over channel 6, which is the Serbian

7 interpretation. But let's continue. I assume that the technical booth

8 will be able to put that right soon.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Did you -- were you doing the interpretation when members of the

11 American observer mission had contacts with the representatives of the

12 KLA?

13 A. No. No. I never had any meetings with the KLA in this capacity.

14 Q. And later on, while you were employed in the Verification Mission,

15 did you do the interpreting for a meeting at which representatives of the

16 Verification Mission talked to representatives of the KLA?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did you ever have occasion to meet, in your capacity as an

19 employee of KDOM or as an employee in the Kosovo Verification Mission,

20 some representatives of the KLA?

21 A. Yes. We saw members of the KLA on our patrols.

22 Q. Now, the representatives of those missions, did they talk to them

23 on that occasion or not?

24 A. Yes, they did. Sometimes they talked.

25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter requests the witness to draw

Page 3708

1 near the microphone.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. That means that you translated for them; right?

4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kuci -- yes. You got the message.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. We also translated, when

6 there was need, for members of the KLA or the Yugoslav army or the

7 police.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. How often did you interpret for the members of the KLA while you

10 were working with the American KDOM?

11 A. As far as I remember, twice. And these were short meetings,

12 meetings on the street, not official meetings.

13 Q. And what did those talks have to do with, at the brief meetings

14 that you had which you say were not official meetings? What did they

15 discuss?

16 A. I'm not competent to discuss the conversations that took place.

17 I'm not an official who could explain what these conversations were.

18 Q. Well, I'm asking you what was discussed, because those discussions

19 went through you. So you physically had to hear both sides for you to be

20 able to interpret.

21 A. Indeed. We interpreted for both sides. But we are not authorised

22 to convey the substance of what was said.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, may I have an explanation

24 as to whether the witness is duty-bound to say what he knows here, or does

25 he have the right to refrain? Because, as he has just said, in view of

Page 3709

1 the fact that he took the solemn declaration here that he would speak the

2 truth, what the position is.

3 JUDGE MAY: When you say, Mr. Kuci, you're not authorised to say

4 what was said in those conversations, what are you referring to? Was this

5 something you signed when you joined the OSCE? Tell us what the authority

6 is.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that the substance of the

8 conversation, which is something I didn't take notes about, I think this

9 is a matter for representatives of the OSCE. I haven't signed anything to

10 say that I won't speak, but it's not my place to discuss the content of

11 what was said between members of the KLA and the members of the OSCE

12 mission.

13 JUDGE MAY: Were you told by anybody not to repeat the

14 conversation?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

16 JUDGE MAY: Was there a general rule in the OSCE that interpreters

17 should not repeat conversations which they had to interpret? Was there

18 any notion of confidentiality?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Normally we had to maintain the

20 confidentiality of what was said.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Ryneveld, can you assist us on this matter? As

23 far as the OSCE is concerned, do you know of any policy or the like?

24 MR. RYNEVELD: To be absolutely honest, Your Honour, I do not know

25 of any policy, other than the one of general confidentiality, to which the

Page 3710

1 witness has referred. It seems to me, however, that the witness is being

2 brought forward to give evidence, and I know of no sort of Rule 70 basis

3 whereby this evidence could not be elicited. If it does become a matter

4 of a substance -- especially the context of what he's saying now - it

5 wasn't an official meeting, it was on the street - I don't see how the

6 Prosecution can take the view that we would be opposing. On the other

7 hand, I cannot speak for the OSCE, other than this witness is under a

8 general rule of confidentiality. But surely, when coming before this

9 Tribunal to give evidence, unless it's covered by Rule 70, it's for Your

10 Honours to decide as to whether or not he ought divulge the nature of that

11 conversation.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Of course, Mr. Ryneveld, if the evidence related

13 to security matters, the OSCE itself would be interested in the

14 confidentiality of that kind of information.

15 MR. RYNEVELD: Absolutely, Your Honour. And since I do not know

16 what the subject matter of this conversation was any more than -- it's not

17 in the statement. I'm not in a position to assist the Court on that

18 matter other than I'm not aware of anything specific which prohibits this

19 witness from testifying to those questions which the Court permits him to

20 answer.

21 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kuci, we'll hear what the evidence is. You are

24 here, of course, to tell the truth, and we think that obligation overrides

25 any general obligation. But if the question relates to security at all,

Page 3711

1 or may relate to security of the OSCE, or something of that sort, then we

2 will consider ordering the question not to be answered. We note that you

3 say you took no notes of the conversation. If you can remember what was

4 said, say so, but if you can't, say that you can't remember, if that's the

5 position. But do your best to answer the questions, if they're relevant

6 and you can answer them.

7 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can say that the OSCE had

9 meetings and had published its report, became public. And the meetings

10 where I was an interpreter were short encounters, for instance, on the

11 street, where members of the OSCE met representatives of the KLA and asked

12 what the situation was like: Is everything in order? Has there been any

13 gunfire? And, for instance: Today Serbian police and army convoy passed

14 in a certain direction. Or where the Yugoslav army was deployed. And

15 from here, we would move on to other places.

16 JUDGE MAY: So to summarise, these were short conversations,

17 generally about the deployment of troops or forces, that sort of topic?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. So it is your assertion that these two conversations that you

22 mentioned pertained exclusively, in terms of their substance, to the Serb

23 side. Were there any conversations about, and did any of the subject

24 matter pertain to that particular interlocutor's side, that is to say, the

25 KLA?

Page 3712












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Page 3713

1 A. Could you make the question clearer, please?

2 Q. It was my understanding that your explanation was that the

3 contents of this conversation, that is to say, the questions and the

4 answers between your employers and the representatives of the KLA,

5 pertained exclusively to information related to the Serb side. Is that

6 right?

7 A. No. There were also conversations with members of the KLA,

8 between members of the KLA and the Yugoslav army, at checkpoints and the

9 like, when a convoy of humanitarian aid had to pass, and the OSCE checked

10 these convoys.

11 Q. But I'm talking about the conversations that you mentioned. What

12 was the substance of that part of the conversations that related to the

13 KLA, not the movement of convoys of the Serb army and police.

14 A. The content of the conversation was, for instance: What's the

15 situation like? Is there any gunfire? Are there any problems? These

16 were the kinds of conversations we had, both with the KLA and with members

17 of the Serbian forces. It was mainly members of the mission asking KLA

18 members what the situation was like in their areas and where gunfire came

19 from, if there was any.

20 Q. On the basis of what you've been saying, can one infer that the

21 members of the mission only put questions to the KLA that they encountered

22 on the way that pertained to the Serb forces, or did they also ask

23 questions that pertained to their forces?

24 A. They asked members of the KLA if there had been gunfire, but they

25 would also ask the Serbian forces if there had been gunfire. They would

Page 3714

1 ask similar questions to both sides.

2 Q. Who were the people that you were interpreting for in KDOM? You

3 met them. You worked with them for months. Who were these people?

4 A. I should say again that in KDOM and in the OSCE Verification

5 Mission, there were lots of people, and I can't really remember their

6 names. I'm not sure that I can discuss these people.

7 Q. Well, I assume that you worked with the same people during that

8 time while you worked, or perhaps this is not correct.

9 A. We didn't work always with one person or with one team. We moved

10 around.

11 Q. And how long did you work with the same team?

12 A. Normally, we worked for three days with the same team.

13 Q. Three days. In three days you can probably establish who these

14 people are. Can you say anything about who these people are?

15 JUDGE MAY: What is the relevance of this?

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, the relevance will be shown by

17 my further questions.

18 JUDGE MAY: Then ask your further questions to show the

19 relevance.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Were these people civilians or military persons?

22 A. These people were civilians.

23 Q. You say that they were civilians. Does that pertain both to KDOM

24 and to the Kosovo Verification Mission?

25 A. Yes. All the people I met were civilians, and I didn't ask about

Page 3715

1 their particular fields of expertise.

2 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours.

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

4 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, in response to the question you asked

5 me earlier, although I outlined our general position, I must say that the

6 line of questioning now - and this is of course for the Court to determine

7 - is completely outside the scope, other than passing reference to his

8 employment, of the nature of the statement that this witness has been

9 tendered for. In other words, I leave it to the Court to determine how

10 relevant it is, but I want to note for the record that there is nothing in

11 his statements about his work with the KDOM or OSCE. And I leave it to

12 the Court, but I thought I should make that observation.

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We've allowed the questions because the witness

14 did work for them and there's been evidence about them. But so far,

15 nothing very relevant has appeared.

16 Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Bear in mind you've got to show relevance for

17 any of this.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No doubt the witness did mention in

19 his statement that he worked for the American KDOM and then for the Kosovo

20 Verification Mission. I think that the examinations of witnesses to date,

21 notably of General Drewienkiewicz and Lieutenant Colonel Ciaglinski,

22 indicated the relevance of the substance of the work of the Verification

23 Mission, the presence of a large number of military personnel on the

24 mission and also many elements that indicated that the mission largely

25 focused on preparations for the NATO aggression. Since the witness worked

Page 3716

1 for the mission --

2 JUDGE MAY: That is all a matter of argument, and you can make

3 your submissions in due course. This witness said he worked for

4 civilians.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. All right. You said that you met the members of the KLA only in

7 the street. You would meet them only in the street. Where would you meet

8 them? Can you determine that more specifically? What does "in the

9 street" mean?

10 A. On the street not in the sense of while walking around but in

11 villages where groups of the KLA were, where they had checkpoints of

12 various kinds, just as the police had in the areas controlled by the

13 Yugoslav police and army. So that at the entrance to a village, there

14 would be a checkpoint with two soldiers of the KLA. And this was the way

15 in which we met people.

16 Q. And when you would enter a village, would you talk to any KLA

17 members then?

18 A. I didn't have any opportunity to talk to KLA commanders or members

19 of the KLA.

20 Q. It was my understanding that you said that you were in these

21 conversations twice, in these situations of conversations between your

22 employers and representatives of the KLA, that that was at the time when

23 you worked for the American KDOM. Is that right?

24 A. No. This was with the OSCE. When I was working for the American

25 KDOM, I wasn't involved in conversations with members of the KLA.

Page 3717

1 Q. All right. Let's go on. Let us continue with your statement.

2 In paragraph 3, page 1, at the very end. Since you describe the

3 number -- the colours of the uniforms of the army and the police, you say,

4 "I was never in a position to see their shoulder patches. "

5 Can I understand that to mean that you were not in any close

6 contact with them since you used the word "never," that you could "never"

7 see them? That is to say that you never had any close contact with the

8 military or with the police, the kind of close contact which makes it

9 possible for you to see their shoulder patches?

10 A. You're referring to the Serbian army and police, aren't you?

11 Q. Yes. Yes. I am talking about your statement and what it

12 contains; that is to say that you were never in that kind of contact with

13 them that would make it possible for you to see their shoulder patches.

14 A. Yes. During work with the OSCE, yes, I was close. And the

15 Serbian place had the blue camouflage --

16 JUDGE MAY: The examiner has moved on, and he's asking you about a

17 passage in your statement, Mr. Kuci, when the OSCE had left and Serb

18 forces moved in to Suva Reka and you were able to see various units in the

19 town, and you said that the VJ wore green camouflage uniforms and the MUP

20 had blue camouflage uniforms, but you said you were never in a position to

21 see their shoulder patches. Is that right?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That is precisely what I want

23 to clarify. During work for the OSCE, yes, we were was in close contact,

24 and I was able to see the shoulder patches. But after the departure of

25 the OSCE mission, it was only normal that I wasn't close enough, and I was

Page 3718

1 only observing their positions at a distance, from my house. I could only

2 see which one was a police uniform, which one was an army uniform, but I

3 wasn't close enough to see that. I could only see that from the window of

4 my house.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. In paragraph 3, page 1 of the other statement, you say, and I'm

7 going to quote the entire sentence: "I also wish to say that I was told

8 that when the OSCE leaves Kosovo, I should hide so that the Serb police

9 would not arrest me. It is for that reason that I never left my

10 apartment."

11 Who said to you that you should hide so that the Serb police would

12 not arrest you? You say that you were told. Who said that to you?

13 A. The head of the OSCE mission in Suhareke said this.

14 Q. As a matter of fact, you move on to say that you were aware that

15 you might be killed. However, your statement shows that you were in

16 contact with the police, that nobody arrested you, and that nobody harmed

17 you. Is that right or is that not right?

18 A. After the departure of the mission, it was obvious that an

19 interpreter who should work for the OSCE could be a target. I personally

20 was not harmed but perhaps others were killed. I know that I was

21 threatened, as I've stated there in my statement. Just before passing the

22 border, they put myself at gunpoint, and I could say that I was near death

23 there.

24 Q. Yes. But your entire statement which refers to your departure and

25 crossing the border refers to several contacts you had with the police,

Page 3719

1 but nobody arrested you although they knew that you had worked for the

2 OSCE. Is that right or is that not right?

3 A. I do not know how clear this is. When I left the house and until

4 I reached the point, I'm not sure that every single policeman ought to

5 have known that I worked for the OSCE. They might not. I was part of a

6 convoy with other people that were leaving.

7 Q. All right. Let's move on. It is quite clear that nothing

8 happened to you. After all, that is something that you never claimed

9 anyway.

10 Towards the end of page 1, the third paragraph from the

11 bottom - I'm referring to your second statement - you say that you

12 travelled to Kukes with a person, a woman, who told you that the

13 inhabitants of the village were told to go to Albania. That's what it

14 says here. The police kept some of the men in the village. They were

15 lined up at the school and executed. She did not see the execution.

16 So that person did not see the execution that she told you about.

17 So you heard about an execution from a person who is not an eyewitness of

18 that execution herself. Is that right or is that not right?

19 A. As stated there, she was there. She helped us. She wanted a lift

20 in our tractor. As I said, she said that they held all the males and they

21 let the women alone, as she has described it. The men were lined up for

22 execution. So basically what I'm trying to say is that she left, she

23 hasn't seen them, and I haven't seen them either.

24 Q. All right. That's what I wanted to hear.

25 Then towards the end of your statement, you say - your statement

Page 3720

1 is short - the beginning of the second page: "The police and the army did

2 not escort us except for the fact that we saw police cars on the way.

3 Then we came to Prizren." And the last sentence in your statement

4 reads: "We crossed without being insulted or ill-treated."

5 Is that right?

6 A. Actually, my family and myself were not ill-treated physically.

7 On the route to Prizren, we saw Serbian police and civilian Serbs which

8 were driving in the opposite direction at high speed. And as I've said,

9 around Prizren we were insulted, with the specific words that I've

10 mentioned there: "Go away. You'll never return. You asked for NATO to

11 come in. NATO will help you now," and so on and so forth, and other words

12 to this effect.

13 Q. You said in the last sentence: "We passed without being insulted

14 or ill-treated."

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes. That is the border. Before that, he describes

16 in the statement various incidents, including having to give them money.

17 Is that right?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is correct. A few metres

19 to the border where the convoy had been stopped -- because not everybody

20 could pass speedily through. There was a very long convoy. So waiting in

21 that convoy, there were two policemen who pointed their pistol towards me,

22 and they asked me for my money or be killed, and I gave them money, as

23 I've explained over there. The same happened to my brother. They

24 threatened him with a pistol in his chest and took his money away. I

25 consider this to be a grave insult. I do not know what kind of other

Page 3721












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Page 3722

1 insults you could be referring to.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. I'm quoting your own statement when I put these questions to you.

4 As for what you have been claiming in terms of what happened to you, of

5 course it would have been hard had it happened. However, during my

6 cross-examination, I've been trying to establish what is true out of all

7 the things that you've said.

8 I can't find a particular section now, but didn't you write down

9 here that you were a teacher for a time before you went into this other

10 business?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Where did you work as a teacher?

13 A. In Suhareke.

14 Q. In which school did you work in Suva Reka? Elementary school,

15 secondary school? Which school?

16 A. Primary.

17 Q. The name of the school?

18 A. It was called the 7th of March, Shtate Mars school, in Suhareke.

19 Q. How many teachers were there in that school?

20 A. I do not know the exact number, but it is about 50 or 60.

21 Q. How many pupils?

22 A. I do not know.

23 Q. Were there 1.000 or 800 or 1.500 or ...

24 A. Somewhere in the region of 800 to 1.000.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 3723

1 JUDGE MAY: We've heard enough now about education. It's no part

2 of the witness's statement, Mr. Milosevic.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This witness said that he worked as

4 a teacher, so since he worked as a teacher and since the question of

5 education is greatly challenged in the case of some witnesses, I just

6 wanted to ascertain that he worked in a school where there were about 850

7 pupils and about 50 or 60 teachers. So we're not going to go back to

8 that.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Who did you make all your statements to?

11 A. Which statements are you referring to?

12 Q. Statements of this kind, the ones that have to do with the events

13 that you're testifying about for these purposes. Who did you give the

14 statements to?

15 A. People who work for the Tribunal, naturally.

16 Q. But I have information that before giving a statement to the

17 investigator working for this institution, that you gave a statement, on

18 the 10th of April, 1999, to people from the International Crisis Group,

19 and it is a statement of the 10th of April, 1999.

20 A. I cannot remember having given any statement to the International

21 Crisis Group. It could be a mistake.

22 Q. I have made a note of this from the information that is accessible

23 to me. In fact, you gave statements on three occasions; is that right?

24 A. The statements that I've given were mainly given to people working

25 for this Tribunal. I cannot remember -- I'm not aware of ever having met

Page 3724

1 members of the International Crisis Group.

2 MS. ROMANO: Your Honours --


4 MS. ROMANO: The witness gave a statement to the -- he might not

5 remember the institution. It was when he was in Tirana and it was for the

6 ICJ. I have in hand two statements to the Croatians, and that was also

7 disclosed to the accused and to the amici.

8 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. So you gave statements twice to representatives of the

12 International Crisis Group, and in none of those statements did you make

13 mention of the fact that the police stole cars in Zur. You mentioned that

14 for the first time in the talk on the 16th of June, 2001. Why didn't you

15 bring that matter up earlier on, these occurrences, if they did indeed

16 take place?

17 A. This did really happen. It could have been possible that when I

18 gave the first statement, not everything came to my mind. In the second

19 statement, I filled it up with more of what I was able to recall.

20 Q. But as you can see in both these two statements, according to your

21 own definitions that it didn't come to your mind, it didn't occur to you,

22 it did not occur to you; it did not come to your mind.

23 JUDGE MAY: That's his answer: It didn't come to mind.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] All right.

25 Q. Now, since you worked for the Verification Mission and, before

Page 3725

1 that, the KDOM - that is to say, without a doubt, you were one of the

2 best-informed people around when it comes to the Albanian population in

3 that area - now, do you know of an event that took place on the 21st of

4 March, 1999, when, between 1800 hours, or rather, between 1440 hours and

5 1500 hours, and then later on, between 1800 and 1820 hours, Albanian

6 terrorists opened fire on members of the police force who were in your

7 municipality in the village of Rastani? Do you know of that event?

8 A. No. On 21st of March, no doubt I was at home because the OSCE

9 mission had left, as far as I remember, on the 12th of March. And after

10 that time, I didn't go out on the street.

11 Q. But you did communicate with someone, I assume, and occurrences of

12 that kind must have been something that was heard about because they were

13 in the vicinity. So is your answer you know nothing about it?

14 A. No. I haven't heard of this case because the village that you've

15 mentioned is a long way from my home.

16 Q. And do you know something else that took place in your

17 municipality on that same day, in the village of Movljane, when cumulative

18 missiles launched from a hand-held rocket launcher, members of the KLA

19 once again hit a target and it was the police? Did you hear about that?

20 On that same day. On that same 21st of March.

21 A. No. From my house, perhaps I heard gunfire in the area, but I

22 know nothing about this specific case that you've mentioned.

23 Q. And what do you mean when you say you might have heard? Did you

24 hear or did you not hear about it?

25 A. I can say I did hear gunfire, but I don't know where they came

Page 3726

1 from or who shot.

2 Q. All right. But, now, do you know about another event that took

3 place in Suva Reka itself on the 22nd of March at 14.30 hours, in fact, in

4 Suva Reka? The street's name was Cara Dusana. 46A, the number of the

5 house. Albanian terrorists stormed the Balkanbelt shop - Balkanbelt Suva

6 Reka is a well-known company - and shot Bogdan Lazic with several

7 bullets. He was from the village of Sopina, but this took place in Suva

8 Reka on the 22nd of March at 14.30 hours, which means right by you, where

9 you were. Do you know about that event?

10 A. I said that after the 20th of March, I didn't leave my house until

11 the date when I crossed the border to Albania. So I saw nothing of events

12 of this kind and I heard nothing.

13 Q. Did you hear anything about the killing of Elshan Sheqiri? He was

14 born in 1937. And it took place in the village of Pecane in the

15 municipality of Suva Reka. Did you hear about that?

16 A. No. I didn't know this person, and I haven't heard of this

17 incident.

18 Q. And did you hear about the name of Kuci Namil [sic], also from

19 Suva Reka?

20 A. Could you repeat the question again? I didn't hear the name

21 properly.

22 Q. The name is Kuci Namil [sic].

23 JUDGE MAY: And what's question?

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, the question is whether he has

25 heard about him because he's from Suva Reka. And this man was killed

Page 3727

1 too.

2 JUDGE MAY: Do you know anything about this?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I -- this name Namil is not

4 known to me. I've never heard of it.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. And have you heard of the killing of a policeman by the name of

7 Slobodan Petkov in the village of Pecane in your own municipality Suva

8 Reka?

9 A. No. I haven't heard of this.

10 JUDGE MAY: Do you know anything about these matters which he's

11 putting to you?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I've heard of none of these.

13 JUDGE MAY: Your evidence is you stayed in your apartment after

14 the OSCE left.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Apologise for just one moment.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, your time is very nearly up, but we'll

18 let you ask another question if you want.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just want to put something right.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. I couldn't see the name properly. It wasn't Kuci Namil. It was

22 Kuci Qamil. That was the name. There was a blur on my paper. Did you

23 hear about him, Kuci Qamil from Suva Reka? His name was Kuci Qamil.

24 A. I heard about this case after I returned from Albania. I didn't

25 hear anything about it at the time.

Page 3728

1 Q. And do you happen to know that from the beginning of 1998 onwards,

2 up until the beginning of the war, that is to say the 24th of March and

3 throughout the time that you were there, do you know that it was mostly

4 Albanians who were killed by the KLA? And have you heard of the following

5 name, Bajraktari Bafti from Budakovo, for example, who was killed in

6 September 1998?

7 A. No. I have never heard of any of these names or incidents that

8 you have mentioned.

9 JUDGE MAY: Very well. No. You've had your extra question.

10 Mr. Tapuskovic, have you questions for this witness?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have one more question, please. I

12 have 20 names here, a list of 20 names of Albanians from the Suva Reka

13 municipality who were killed by KLA terrorists.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Now, have you heard of a single Albanian who was killed by the KLA

16 in the territory of your municipality? Do you want me to read out those

17 20 names?

18 JUDGE MAY: No. Can you answer the question? The question was:

19 Have you heard of a single Albanian killed by the KLA in the

20 municipality?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I haven't heard of any.

22 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

23 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the amici have no

24 questions to ask Mr. Kuci. Thank you.

25 MS. ROMANO: Just one matter.

Page 3729

1 Re-examined by Ms. Romano:

2 Q. Mr. Kuci, when you were describing the conversations that the KVM

3 staff had with the KLA staff and the ones who were present, can you

4 clarify if during the conversation there was any indication that the KVM

5 was helping the KLA staff by saying where the VJ or the MUP positions

6 were?

7 A. No. As far as I was present -- as far as my impressions went, the

8 OSCE mission was unbiased and impartial and neutral.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MS. ROMANO: No further questions, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kuci, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for

12 coming to the Tribunal to give it. You're free to go.

13 THE WITNESS: Thank you as well.

14 [The witness withdrew]

15 MR. RYNEVELD: If it please the Court, the Prosecution calls

16 Hadije Fazliu.

17 JUDGE MAY: While we're waiting for the witness, Mr. Ryneveld, may

18 I deal with some practical matters? Hearings this week. Tomorrow we'll

19 be sitting from 9.30 to 4.00. On Friday, there will be a change to the

20 programme which has been necessitated because of a change in

21 circumstance. We will sit from 9.00 until sometime after 1.00, fairly

22 shortly after 1.00. Just so that everybody should be warned of that.

23 The other matter concerns the witness statements, and I'm not sure

24 that we have yet got number 12 on the list of the 16th of April, Aferdita

25 Hajrize. Now I may be wrong about that. Could you check it out?

Page 3730












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 3731

1 MR. RYNEVELD: We certainly well. Yes, Your Honour. Yes, Your

2 Honour. I believe that we have provided that particular statement

3 yesterday to -- through the normal channels for the Court.

4 I might also indicate, Your Honours, while we're waiting for the

5 witness to be brought in, that Exhibit 83, page 5 might be of some

6 assistance to show the village where the next witness is from. Also on

7 Exhibit 4, map 11.

8 JUDGE MAY: We'll have the witness.


10 [The witness entered court]

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If you would like to take the declaration.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

13 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. If you'd like to take a seat.


16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

18 Examined by Mr. Ryneveld:

19 Q. Now, Witness, could you state your full name for the Court,

20 please.

21 A. Hadije Fazliu.

22 Q. And am I correct that you are presently an unmarried Muslim,

23 ethnic Albanian?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And what village did you reside in in 1999?

Page 3732

1 A. Turicevc.

2 Q. And can you indicate for us, please, where your village is

3 located? What's the nearest, closest town?

4 A. Skenderaj and Klina are roughly the same distance.

5 Q. All right.

6 MR. RYNEVELD: Might the witness please be shown Exhibit 83, at

7 page -- page 5.

8 Q. Witness, when the usher puts this map, you will see it on the

9 screen in front of you, but I'm going to ask you to use the pointer --

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. -- and tell us if you can locate on the screen beside you, that is

12 the map, where your village is located.

13 MR. RYNEVELD: And it may assist the Court: If you look at page

14 5, the right-hand column, number 14, about two inches to the left of

15 that.

16 Q. Could you point that out for us, please?

17 A. [Indicates]

18 Q. All right, Witness. You're now pointing to a location where there

19 seems to be a convergence of some roads and where it says "Turicevac";

20 correct?

21 A. Turicevc.

22 Q. Thank you. And that is in the municipality of what, Srbica?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you. You can turn away. Thank you.

25 Now, just a couple of other questions, if I may. I understand

Page 3733

1 that you've lived there all your life. Is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And what was your former occupation?

4 A. I worked at a book shop.

5 Q. Thank you. Now, Witness, did you give a statement to

6 investigators from the Office of the Prosecutor on the 21st of October,

7 2001?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And subsequently, on the 4th of February of this year, 2002, were

10 you provided with a copy of your statement in the Albanian language?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And at that time, did you appear before a presiding officer of the

13 Court and tell that officer that the contents of your statement were true

14 and accurate to the best of your knowledge and belief?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 MR. RYNEVELD: Might that statement now be tendered as the next

18 exhibit, please, Your Honour.

19 I might, while we're awaiting distribution, indicate that I have

20 provided a copy of a skeleton summary of that for the benefit of the

21 translators, and I believe the Court may also have a copy. If I may, I

22 propose to read that now.

23 JUDGE MAY: We'll get an exhibit number first, Mr. Ryneveld.

24 MR. RYNEVELD: Oh, sorry.

25 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit 110, Your Honours.

Page 3734

1 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

2 Your Honours, this witness in her statement describes that her

3 village has roughly a hundred houses and a total population of about a

4 thousand people. She describes that it's about 12 kilometres from the

5 town of Srbica and about 13 kilometres from Klina. It indicates that the

6 KLA had headquarters in the village, at the school, and when NATO bombing

7 began, many refugees from Prekaz had already sought refuge in Turicevac.

8 She goes on to describe that on the 26th of March, 1999, at

9 roughly 9.00, Serb forces began shelling Turicevac from the direction of

10 Broje. Villagers and refugees, including the witness, fled in a convoy

11 heading toward Tusilje, also in the Srbica municipality, where many other

12 refugees had sought refuge.

13 Well, apparently, Serb forces eventually surrounded Tusilje on the

14 29th of March, 1999, at roughly 8.00 a.m. They approached from both Klina

15 and from Srbica. The police arrived first, on foot, firing their weapons,

16 followed by the army in tanks and other vehicles. At 10.00, the police

17 and military began directing the refugees through towards Klina. En route

18 through to Tusilje, more than 1.500 men were separated from their families

19 and sent to Srbica, where Serb forces questioned them in the local

20 school. The women, children, and elderly continued toward Klina, passing

21 soldiers with tanks and armoured vehicles.

22 En route to Klina, the witness and her family left the convoy for

23 their own village. Although the village had been burned and damaged, they

24 stayed at their family home for two days. Many other refugees came to the

25 village, and on the 1st of April, 1999, the police arrived in civilian

Page 3735

1 cars that they had stolen from Kosovo Albanians. They killed three people

2 in the village, sent the remainder toward Klina in a convoy of more than a

3 thousand. Along the route, the witness saw burned villages and bodies of

4 men and older boys.

5 After stopping in other villages overnight and along the way, on

6 the 2nd of April, 1999, the witness and her group arrived at Klina.

7 Police in Klina directed them onto trucks driven by gypsies, heading

8 towards the village of Volujak. Tanks and troops lined the road to

9 Volujak, and from there they walked towards Djakovica. The police didn't

10 stop the refugees, but maintained checkpoints along the road. When the

11 convoy arrived at Djakovica, walking through the city's outskirts, the

12 witness saw neighbourhoods on fire, shops damaged and destroyed. The

13 witness and her group followed the other refugees from Djakovica,

14 suspecting they would know the quickest route to the border. They were

15 not provided with food or water, and the witness heard that young women

16 taken from the convoy had probably been raped and ill-treated.

17 On the 4th of April, 1999, the refugees left Djakovica and walked

18 to the border crossing of Qafe e Prushit. There she saw a large presence

19 of Serb forces on the road from Djakovica to the border, and the Serb

20 forces told the refugees that the area on either side of the road was

21 mined and that they should hurry to the border, as NATO might attack. To

22 reach the border, the refugees had to climb a steep hill, leaving some of

23 the elderly and sick behind.

24 That is the general outline of her statement, and I have no

25 further questions.

Page 3736

1 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. We'll adjourn now. Cross-examination

2 after the break.

3 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. Might I also, at the beginning of the

4 next session, raise a brief issue with the Court about clarification of

5 the Court's interpretation of the number of witnesses?


7 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

8 JUDGE MAY: By all means.

9 Ms. Fazliu, we're going to adjourn now for an hour and a half.

10 Could you remember not to speak to anybody about your evidence in the

11 adjournment and until it's over, and that does include members of the

12 Prosecuting team. Would you be back, please, at half past 2.00.

13 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.58 p.m.













Page 3737

1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

2 JUDGE MAY: This is a ruling of the Trial Chamber on the

3 facilities provided for the accused for his defence.

4 The procedural background is as follows:

5 The accused has, on a number of occasions, complained about the

6 lack of facilities available to him to conduct his defence. Further to an

7 undertaking given by the amicus curiae on the 27th of February, the amici

8 curiae filed a "Brief on the provision of adequate facilities to allow the

9 accused to prepare his defence," and on the 6th of March, 2002, the Trial

10 Chamber ordered the Registry to provide a report on the facilities

11 available to him.

12 This report was filed on the 18th of March and was discussed

13 during public session on the 10th of April, at which time both the accused

14 and the amici curiae made various observations as to the adequacy of the

15 facilities provided.

16 Article 21 of the Statute sets out certain minimum guarantees to

17 which an accused appearing before the Tribunal is entitled, including the

18 right to have adequate time and facilities for the preparation of his

19 defence.

20 The Trial Chamber has reviewed the report from the Registry

21 relating to the facilities provided to the accused and is satisfied that

22 all possible efforts are being made to assist him.

23 As a general principle, the accused is treated in the same way as

24 all other accused. Any variations have been put in place by the Registry

25 in an attempt to assist him in light of the fact that he wishes to conduct

Page 3738

1 his own defence.

2 First, and contrary to the repeated assertions of the accused, he

3 is not and never has been kept in isolation. He is allowed to mix with

4 other detainees at the Detention Unit and to receive visits in accordance

5 with the standard procedures. As a result, the accused receives regular

6 visits from members of his family and from representatives of various

7 organisations.

8 The regime for legal visits - by which I mean visits that are

9 fully confidential - has been complicated by the fact that, for many

10 months, the accused refused to identify those persons with whom he wished

11 to communicate and then, when such visits were offered by lawyers that he

12 had asked to meet, he declined to communicate with those persons. That

13 position is now resolved following the appointment of two persons as his

14 associates, and the Trial Chamber is satisfied that the accused has

15 adequate facilities for the preparation of his defence, as guaranteed by

16 Article 21 of the Statute.

17 The accused can now meet with his two associates on a confidential

18 basis at the Tribunal during breaks in the court proceedings and at the

19 Detention Unit at the end of the day. The length of these visits is

20 governed by the regulations in place at both the Detention Unit and the

21 Dutch prison in which it is located, which apply to all detainees and

22 their counsel.

23 He can also communicate freely with the two associates by

24 telephone from the Detention Unit, including at the weekend; and, as an

25 exception not available to other detainees who have appointed Defence

Page 3739












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 3740

1 counsel, by telephone from the Tribunal during the day.

2 The associates can help the accused in making photocopies and

3 sending faxes at the premises of the Tribunal during the day and limited

4 facilities are also available to do this at the Detention Unit. In

5 addition to facilities similar to those provided to the other detainees,

6 the Registry also provides additional copies of documents served in the

7 proceedings for him to discuss with his associates. The accused may

8 review video material and use a computer in his cell, although for

9 security reasons it is not permitted for any accused to have e-mail and

10 Internet access.

11 Yes. That concludes the ruling.

12 Mr. Ryneveld, there was a matter you wanted to raise.

13 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. Actually two

14 matters, if I may. The first is a response to Your Honour's question to

15 me this morning about the witness statement. Our records indicate that we

16 in fact had produced the witness statements of that witness to the Senior

17 Legal Officer on the 19th of April and then additional copies were

18 provided on the 22nd of April. So hopefully copies of that witness

19 statement have made their way to Your Honours.

20 JUDGE MAY: That appears to be the position, I now understand, but

21 equally, we've made no ruling upon it.

22 MR. RYNEVELD: I appreciate that.

23 JUDGE MAY: So we will, at an appropriate time, have to make a

24 ruling.

25 MR. RYNEVELD: I understand that. I was just responding to your

Page 3741

1 issue about getting the statement to you for review so you could make a

2 ruling. Thank you.

3 The second matter, Your Honour, deals with a comment by the Court,

4 I believe it was last Monday, concerning the 90 witnesses. And just so

5 that I'm completely clear about to what extent the Court is referring to

6 90 witnesses, my understanding was, back on the 11th of January and the

7 9th of January, when the issue of witnesses came up -- I've checked the

8 record, and the Court asked me to deal with a point in the order, and I

9 indicated to the Court that we then anticipated calling 110 witnesses by

10 way of viva voce evidence, of the potential 201 that we had put in our 65

11 ter filing. I then outlined to the Court the numbers and how they were

12 broken down. But I also indicated that the Prosecution proposes to call

13 110 by way of viva voce evidence, and with the leave of the Court, will

14 tender 123 crime-base witnesses by way of 92 bis statements. And I

15 indicated that the Prosecution would then seek leave of the Court to call

16 additional witnesses viva voce in the event the Court didn't grant

17 permission for those witnesses's evidence to be submitted by way of 92

18 bis.

19 Then, at that time, the Court clarified with me how I arrived at

20 the 110 figure, and the exchange went something like this:

21 "JUDGE MAY: In the document, there are numbers for

22 the live witnesses, and there appear at the moment

23 to be 90 live witnesses that you've numbered, with

24 the possibility of a further 20.


Page 3742

1 JUDGE MAY: Would that be right? That's your 110?

2 MR. RYNEVELD: That's my 110.

3 JUDGE MAY: Then we have your 92 bis, your written

4 statements, and they number up to - is this right - to

5 123?

6 MR. RYNEVELD: That's absolutely correct."

7 The Court then indicated:

8 "JUDGE MAY: We consider that a total of --"

9 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Ryneveld, please slow down when reading.

10 MR. RYNEVELD: Sorry. I'm apologising to the interpreters for

11 reading too fast.

12 "JUDGE MAY: We consider that a total of 90 witnesses

13 should be sufficient, having regard to size and

14 complexity of the case, but that will not prevent you

15 from making the application during the trial for

16 additional witnesses, on good cause, for challenge, if

17 the witnesses come forward."

18 And then the Court went on to talk about looking at the 92 bis

19 statements.

20 In the written order of the 11th of January, the Trial Chamber set

21 out:

22 "The Trial Chamber sets the number of witnesses the

23 Prosecution may call in person at 90, with leave to apply

24 to the Chamber for permission to present additional

25 witnesses.

Page 3743

1 2. The Trial Chamber --"

2 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me, sir. Would you mind reading out a

3 bit more slowly. Thank you very much.

4 MR. RYNEVELD: I've again been cautioned to read more slowly.

5 "Secondly, the Trial Chamber instructs the Prosecution

6 to review the proposed list of witnesses whose evidence

7 is to be presented by way of statements pursuant to 92

8 bis so as to avoid repetition, and orders that the

9 applications for admission of such evidence be made

10 forthwith on completion of the certification and

11 translation processes."

12 Now, I've read that by way of background, Your Honour, just to

13 see -- because it makes a lot of difference to our planning whether we are

14 in fact restricted to a total of 90 witnesses. My understanding was that

15 we were restricted to a total of 90 live witnesses, plus consideration to

16 be given for 92 bis. Now, we've cut down that 90 live witnesses

17 considerably, and we've also cut down our anticipated 123 92 bis witnesses

18 considerably, but the total of both of them will exceed 90 witnesses.

19 That's the problem. And we were thinking that the question now becomes

20 whether what was a 92 bis witness, because of the procedure we're now

21 adopting, is interpreted by the Chamber to have become a live witness.

22 That's my problem. I assumed not, and I've been operating on the basis

23 that the 92 bis witness is not included in the total.

24 Now, it may be somewhat academic, in light of the fact that we

25 have a finite date whereby we have to complete all our witnesses. I

Page 3744

1 understand that. But I just hope that I'm not at cross-purposes with your

2 order to think I'm allowed up to 90 live witnesses plus 92 bis witnesses.

3 JUDGE MAY: Speaking for myself, I think that the circumstances

4 are different from those in which we originally made the order. First of

5 all, when we made the order, it related to Kosovo alone.


7 JUDGE MAY: The second matter is that the procedure which has now

8 been adopted relating to 92 bis witnesses, which was not one foreseen at

9 the time, it would seem to me sensible to review the whole matter again,

10 in the light of the present circumstances.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 MR. RYNEVELD: I would certainly appreciate that. It's just that

13 when Your Honour mentioned the other day that I was restricted to 90, I

14 had to ask for clarification. So if Your Honours are prepared to

15 reconsider, in light of the developments that have happened, and give us

16 further guidance --

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

18 MR. RYNEVELD: -- keeping in mind you have indicated July 19 is

19 the target date for completion --

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

21 MR. RYNEVELD: -- I'd be grateful. Thank you.

22 JUDGE MAY: Well, perhaps you could assist us by making an

23 application.

24 MR. RYNEVELD: I certainly will.

25 JUDGE MAY: -- for review of the order and we can then review it

Page 3745

1 in light of the all the circumstances.

2 MR. RYNEVELD: We'll do that as soon as we possibly can. Thank

3 you, Your Honour. I appreciate it.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In relation to what you've said, I

7 just want to clarify the facts of the matter. Actually, I didn't ask for

8 anything. I just wanted it to be made quite clear that I have been

9 prevented from having what I call normal means of ensuring an equality,

10 the way it is understood anywhere in the world, and everything that you

11 have been insisting upon allegedly.

12 JUDGE MAY: We are not prepared to enter into further discussion

13 about it. That was a ruling. We will look into the matter of the

14 telephone. Now, if there's some fresh matter you want to raise, you can,

15 but we're not going to go back over what we've dealt with already.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Then I won't deal with

17 the obvious. But I want to draw your attention to a few facts, a few

18 material facts that are not in line with what you have received reports on

19 and what you've just read.

20 The question of isolation, you said a few minutes ago loud and

21 clear in public --

22 JUDGE MAY: We are not prepared for continued submissions on this

23 point. You raised an issue today about the telephone. We will have that

24 looked into further, although we understand that you've been phoning

25 unauthorised numbers and that's why you haven't got through. But we will

Page 3746

1 check that out.

2 Now, that that I read out was a ruling. We've considered all the

3 matters, and there's no point going on arguing about it.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am not speaking about your ruling

5 at all. Your ruling is your own affair. I just want to explain that the

6 facts stand differently. Namely, you said that is what they wrote out for

7 you, that I was never in isolation. I was in isolation for months.

8 JUDGE MAY: We -- we are not prepared to enter into further

9 argument about this. We've had the matter looked into, and we've given

10 this ruling and that, for the moment, is that. If you want to make an

11 application, another application, in due course, we'll consider it, but

12 there's no point arguing about it today. We're going to go on with the

13 evidence. If you have some further application about the telephone, you

14 can make it tomorrow morning if it's not working and you're ringing the

15 authorised numbers. There's no point continuing debate.

16 We will have the witness.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please. Do you know that I am the

18 only detainee who receives even family visits in the presence of prison

19 officials? Are you aware of that at all?

20 JUDGE MAY: We have looked into the various complaints you've

21 made, and you've heard the answer. Now, that is an end of the matter.

22 [The witness entered court]

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do not understand --

24 JUDGE MAY: The witness is here. We're going on with -- we're

25 going on with the evidence.

Page 3747

1 Now, would you like to take a seat.

2 Now, do you want to ask this witness any questions?

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

5 Q. [Interpretation] You said that your village is a small village

6 numbering about 100 houses and that in it, during the war, 1999, there was

7 the KLA. Is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You also said that in the school building of your village was the

10 KLA headquarters.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. On the basis of what you know, does it mean that this led to a

13 conflict between the army and police and the KLA that was in your

14 village?

15 A. About what time?

16 Q. In the village there was a KLA unit, and in the school, according

17 to your own assertion, was the KLA headquarters. So that is where the KLA

18 was. And there was a conflict with the army and the police, between the

19 KLA and the army and police.

20 A. There was no conflict between the KLA and the army.

21 Q. But in the village, according to your own assertion, was a KLA

22 unit with its headquarters in the primary school.

23 A. There was a KLA presence. But when we were expelled, there was --

24 there were no clashes at all.

25 Q. You said in your statement that the Serb forces, on the 26th of

Page 3748












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Page 3749

1 March -- that on the 26th of March, you left your village because the Serb

2 forces shelled it. Were they shelling the KLA?

3 A. They were shelling the houses, the civilian population.

4 Q. And were they shooting at the KLA?

5 JUDGE MAY: What she says is they were shelling the houses.

6 That's what she said.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. But further on, in the next sentence, you say: "I do not remember

9 that someone was hurt." Is that right or is that not right?

10 A. Are we referring to the 26th?

11 Q. Yes. All of that is in this same paragraph, the sixth paragraph

12 from the top. It says: "On the 26th of March, I left my village because

13 the Serb forces shelled it." The next sentence goes on: "I do not

14 remember that someone was hurt or wounded."

15 A. Yes, that's correct.

16 Q. What did you do while you lived in the village before the war

17 started? What were you doing? What are you, professionally speaking, by

18 vocation?

19 A. I finished the high school of commerce, and I worked as a

20 saleswoman at a book shop.

21 Q. You worked with books, newspapers. You listened to the radio and

22 television. I assume that you were informed about things that were going

23 on. Yes or no.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Also, in view of your job and the education that you have, I

Page 3750

1 assume that you were well-informed about events in your municipality. Is

2 that right?

3 A. Depends what kind of situations.

4 Q. I mean regular life, things that go on, everything that goes on.

5 You're an educated person. You work at a book shop. You communicate with

6 people. So I assume that you are a well-informed person. Is my

7 assumption right or isn't it?

8 JUDGE MAY: She's answered that.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. After leaving your village on the 26th of March, you returned on

11 the 29th of March.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Judging by what is written in your statement, you did not see who

14 killed people in the village of Josanica and how.

15 A. People at Jashanice? Yes. I have seen dead people. It's all but

16 natural that the police killed them.

17 Q. All right. But you did not see whether they were killed by the

18 police or whoever. You simply did not see who killed them and how.

19 A. I have seen dead people. It's only to be assumed on who killed

20 them.

21 Q. Was there any bombing in your neighbourhood, in that area? I mean

22 bombing coming from the air.

23 A. No.

24 Q. In terms of what you were able to see and hear for yourself with

25 your very own ears in view of all the noise and shooting and everything,

Page 3751

1 were there any conflicts, any clashes between the KLA and the army and

2 police?

3 A. Even before that, we came under shelling. So this was not the

4 first time.

5 Q. Before what?

6 A. Before the 26th. Ever since the case of Likoshan, we had been

7 expecting this.

8 Q. And what happened in Likosane?

9 A. I wasn't at Likoshan, but other members of my family who were at

10 the burial were there. I wasn't there myself.

11 Q. So even before the clash took place, that is to say the clash

12 between the army and police and the KLA, your village was shelled; is that

13 right?

14 A. No. I didn't say it had been shelled before this case.

15 Q. I thought you said that that's what happened even before, a moment

16 ago.

17 Did the KLA withdraw from the village together with you or did

18 they take a different direction?

19 A. What date are you talking about?

20 Q. The day you left the village, the 26th of March. That was the

21 first time you left the village?

22 JUDGE MAY: The first question -- the first question is did the

23 KLA leave the village on the 26th of March? Or perhaps even before that,

24 were the KLA in the village on the 26th of March or not?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't see them on that day of the

Page 3752

1 26th of March when I left the village.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. All right. Now, on the road from Djakovica to the border,

4 according to what you say, nothing happened to you.

5 A. No.

6 Q. The soldiers told you that there was the danger of NATO bombing

7 the area and that you should hurry up and take shelter; is that right?

8 A. If we had stayed in our own homes, there wouldn't have been any

9 need to find shelter somewhere else.

10 Q. I'm asking you about the time you were at the border, because that

11 is the event that you testify about in your statement.

12 A. But they expelled us by force. We didn't go of our own free

13 will. We didn't even know the road to the border.

14 Q. In your statement, you don't explain the fact that anybody forced

15 you. Did anybody escort you? Did anybody force you to move towards the

16 border? Was anybody with you, either towards the border or across the

17 border?

18 A. But of course we were forced, because nobody leaves their own

19 house normally.

20 Q. Yes, but there was shooting in your village. You said that

21 yourself. You said there was shooting in your village.

22 A. I didn't say there was an exchange of fire. There was shooting

23 from the Serbs.

24 Q. And do you claim that the KLA, who you say was in the village and

25 had a headquarters in the village, did not shoot at the Serbs?

Page 3753

1 A. They didn't have equipment, no doubt.

2 Q. I didn't hear the interpretation of that. I apologise. Could you

3 repeat that, please.

4 JUDGE MAY: What she said was: "They didn't have the equipment,

5 no doubt."

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Do you mean that the KLA wasn't armed? Is that what you want to

8 say?

9 A. They had light weapons, yes, but in comparison with the Serbs,

10 they had nothing.

11 Q. May we take it, then, that what you're saying is that they didn't

12 do any shooting, that they didn't shoot at the army or the police?

13 A. I didn't see them.

14 Q. Did you hear anything about that?

15 A. I heard a lot of things, but I was unable to distinguish them.

16 Q. And do you know about the events that took place in 1998 and

17 1999? For example, in January 1998, in your village, an attack was

18 launched on Jordan Nicic, a forester, and it was a state-owned company

19 called Serbia Sume. Do you know about that? It was by the KLA.

20 A. There's no forest in my village, and I don't know about this case.

21 Q. All right. If you don't know about that case, let me ask you: Is

22 your village the village of Turicevac?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And do you remember that on the 27th of January, 1998, it was

25 precisely in the village of Turicevac, that is to say, in your own

Page 3754

1 village, that there was an attack on Veroslav Vukojcic, from Raska, who

2 had come there with his truck at 11.30 on the 27th of January, 1998? The

3 village of Turicevac. That's where it happened.

4 A. It didn't happen in Turicevc.

5 Q. All right. Now, do you know that on the 12th of February, at

6 10.00, in the village of Turicevac, a Bulgarian citizen by the name of

7 Angel Borisov was attacked? At the time, they were arrested by the KLA

8 but were released later. Do you know about that event? The 12th of

9 February.

10 A. This is the first time I've heard of it. No.

11 Q. Did you hear of Murat Dajkaj, that name? Is it familiar? From

12 the village of Rakitnica?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Have you heard of the attack, as you have not heard of that man

15 who died in the attack, but the attack was on the 20th of February, in the

16 village of Lausa, which is in the same municipality as your own village?

17 A. No, I don't know.

18 Q. And have you heard about another attack that also took place on

19 the 20th of February, 1998, in Lausa, when Milorad Ristic was killed, from

20 Djakovica? Other people were wounded. I don't want to mention their

21 names. But he was killed. Do you know about that event?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Have you heard of the following name: a man called Taci Rizi, who

24 was seriously wounded on the 5th of March, 1998? Have you heard about

25 him? Do you know him? Also wounded by the KLA.

Page 3755

1 A. I don't know of this case.

2 Q. And did you happen to hear of an incident that was linked to the

3 attack on a diplomatic vehicle belonging to the Japanese embassy, where

4 Ataka Gashabi [phoen], attache of the embassy in Yugoslavia, was in the

5 car? She was not hurt. But this was on the 27th of April, in Lausa, in

6 1998. Do you remember that occurrence?

7 A. We are a long way from Lausa, and I don't know what cases may have

8 happened there.

9 Q. So you never heard anything about that?

10 A. No. This is the first time I've heard of it.

11 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, it would seem fairly pointless to go on

12 asking questions about this. The witness has said that she doesn't know

13 what happened in Lausa. You asked her about ten incidents or so and she

14 doesn't know about them. As I've said often before, you can put your

15 evidence in front of us in due course.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, then. Just a few more

17 questions to wind up.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Did you hear of a single case of a crime perpetrated by members of

20 the KLA in your village or in your municipality, that is to say, the

21 Srbica municipality?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Then there's no sense in asking you any more questions, any more

24 specific questions in that regard, because you say you know nothing about

25 it all. Just one more question, then. You said that at the border, they

Page 3756

1 didn't ask you for any identity papers or any money. Is that correct?

2 A. That's right.

3 Q. Thank you. I have no more questions.

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'll try and be

6 brief. I just have a few questions for this witness.

7 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

8 Q. Mrs. Fazliu, I have your statement here in my hands, and on page

9 2, paragraph 4 of that statement -- you have already commented on the

10 matter in answer to a question from Mr. Slobodan Milosevic, but you do say

11 in one particular spot that people kept joining the KLA. Is that correct?

12 A. Of course it is.

13 Q. I want to ask you about what happened in your village. Can you

14 tell us, please, roughly, how many KLA members were there in your

15 village? A rough estimate.

16 A. I don't know. I never was in the headquarters.

17 Q. Thank you. On page 4, Your Honours, paragraph 3, you say in your

18 statement, as recorded in it, that: "We were afraid that they might send

19 us to a factory and that that factory might be bombed." So you were

20 afraid that some of you might be bombed under certain circumstances,

21 bombed by NATO?

22 A. We weren't scared of NATO; we were scared of the rapes that we

23 heard took place at night.

24 Q. I understand that, but you said in your statement - and I don't

25 know where you got that information from. Could you explain that to us,

Page 3757












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Page 3758

1 please? - that you were afraid they wouldn't [as interpreted] send you to

2 a factory that might be bombed. Now, did you hear of any factories having

3 been bombed and people losing their lives? I don't know where you got

4 that information from, that that was what you were afraid of. "We were

5 afraid that they would send us to a factory," et cetera. That's the

6 part.

7 A. I said that they sent -- I said that they sent the population

8 among factories and anything might happen there.

9 Q. In that same paragraph, you said that you had a small radio and

10 that you listened to the news. Was it over that radio that you had heard

11 about things like that happening, that is to say, that factories were

12 being bombed and people killed?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Thank you. Now, there's another point I want to ask you about

15 linked to that fear, and it is on page 5, paragraph 3, and I would

16 conclude with that. It is on that page of your statement, the statement

17 you gave. You said that when you were at the border itself, that you

18 noticed that the army was afraid of the NATO bombing. Is that

19 something -- the conclusion you arrived at on your own or what grounds did

20 you have for saying that, rather?

21 A. But of course they were afraid. We had no reason to be afraid of

22 NATO because we asked for NATO ourselves.

23 Q. Yes. But if they bombed the soldiers there, the military there,

24 some of you could have got killed too. Was that the reason you were

25 hurrying, because of this fear?

Page 3759

1 A. I wasn't scared of death.

2 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 MR. RYNEVELD: Nothing arising. Thank you, Your Honours.

4 JUDGE MAY: That concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming to

5 the Tribunal to give it. You are free to go, Ms. Fazliu.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 [The witness withdrew]

8 MR. RYNEVELD: I propose to call Sadik Januzi as our next

9 witness. And while this witness is coming, might I invite Your Honours

10 and the accused and the amici to turn to page 5. Rather than show this on

11 the ELMO for the witness, I don't propose to deal anything -- he has

12 difficulty reading.

13 So page 5 of Exhibit 83. His village, as you will hear in due

14 course, is Broje, and you will find that just to the left of the village,

15 of previous village of Terasovac, just a quarter of an inch or half an

16 inch to the left, at number 14, which is a marginal numbering on page 5.

17 I also propose, if I may, to read the solemn declaration for him

18 in English and have it translated over his earphones, if that meets with

19 the Court's approval.

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

21 [The witness entered court]

22 JUDGE MAY: Would you just stand up for the solemn declaration,

23 please.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 JUDGE MAY: Counsel is going to read something out to you. It

Page 3760

1 will be translated, and would you say it after the interpreter, please.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, and I will declare.

3 MR. RYNEVELD: All right. Witness, just repeat after me, please.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

5 the truth and nothing else.

6 MR. RYNEVELD: That you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and

7 nothing but the truth.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will tell the truth, the whole

9 truth, and nothing but the truth.

10 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not at all.


14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 Examined by Mr. Ryneveld:

16 Q. Witness, would you state your full name for the Court, please.

17 A. Name and surname, Sadik Tahir Januzi.

18 Q. And Mr. Januzi, is it right that you are a -- a Muslim ethnic

19 Albanian, born in Broje in 1933?

20 A. That's right.

21 Q. And is Broje in the municipality of Skenderaj?

22 A. That's right.

23 Q. Are you married?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. How many children do you have, sir?

Page 3761

1 A. I have six daughters and one son, married.

2 Q. And do I understand that you are now a retired farmer and that you

3 were formerly a security guard?

4 A. Yes. I'm retired now.

5 Q. Yes, sir. Now, sir, do I understand correctly that you were

6 visited by members of the Office of the Prosecutor on the 23rd of April,

7 1999, at which time you gave a statement? Is that correct?

8 A. That's right.

9 Q. And on the 21st of October of 2001, did they come to you and ask

10 you to provide a second statement about -- a follow-up statement about

11 what you told them earlier?

12 A. That's right.

13 Q. And then, sir, just a few months ago, on the 2nd of February of

14 this year, did you appear before a presiding officer of this court, and

15 did you have available two copies of an Albanian translation of those

16 statements and have them read out to you?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And at that time, sir, did you sign -- or did you agree that the

19 statement was true to the best of your recollection and belief?

20 A. It was correct, exactly what I'd said, uh-huh.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MR. RYNEVELD: Might those two statements or the 92 bis statement

23 now be tendered as exhibit -- I think we're up to --


25 MR. RYNEVELD: 111. Thank you. While that's being done, might I

Page 3762

1 read out a skeleton trial summary or do you wish me to wait?

2 Your Honour, the statements that are being distributed are in two

3 parts. In his first statement, this witness describes the situation in

4 Broje in March of 1998 when the police set up checkpoints. Then following

5 an incident when a policeman was killed by the KLA, the Serb forces

6 started shelling his village. He describes an ongoing offensive by Serb

7 forces during which time they attacked about 52 villages in the Drenica

8 region and repeatedly shelled his village of Broje.

9 As a result, the witness and his family were forced to constantly

10 move from village to village over a period of 14 months.

11 He describes in March 1999 Serb forces were shelling Broje and

12 other surrounding villages. And then around the 24th of March, 1999, he

13 and his family sought shelter in Izbica. Four to 5.000 residents from

14 other villages also gathered in Izbica, and they could see the nearby

15 village of Lecina burning.

16 On the 27th of March, he saw Serbian soldiers setting fire to

17 houses in Izbica. The following day, the 28th of March, at about 1.00 in

18 the afternoon, Serbian forces surrounded them, gathered 5.000 people in a

19 meadow which was about 150 metres from the village itself. He tells of

20 soldiers demanding money under threat of burning their homes. He

21 describes the men being separated from the women and children. An officer

22 in charge told the soldiers to not let any of the men leave. The men were

23 divided into two groups of about 70 each. One group went to a stream and

24 the other was taken up the hill.

25 The witness's group was ordered to go up the hill in two rows,

Page 3763

1 escorted by ten soldiers. The soldiers were hurrying them with their

2 machine-guns. The men in his group ranged between 40 and 96 years of

3 age. At one point, a soldier told them to stop and ordered them to turn

4 around, and he then heard one of them say, "Fire." Then the men started

5 falling down, all shot from behind. He says it lasted a few seconds. The

6 witness fell down, although he was not hit, and three dead bodies fell on

7 his back. He could hear the soldiers checking whether anyone was still

8 alive and then recounts hearing seven or eight additional pistol shots

9 fired by the soldiers. Then he heard one of them saying, "Let's go. Our

10 work is over." He describes crawling away and hiding in fear when he was

11 joined by some other survivors, following which he went to his sister's

12 house in Klladernica where he stayed for three or four days.

13 On the last night of his stay at Klladernica, Serb forces started

14 shelling that village before sunrise. All the young men fled to the

15 forest, and he learned that the women from surrounding villages had found

16 shelter in the school building in Klladernica, so he went to check on

17 them. Shelling was still going on, and he saw three wounded people. And

18 around 10.00, the Serb forces surrounded the school building and ordered

19 the women, children, and elderly to proceed to Albania.

20 In his second statement, which I will be very brief about, he

21 describes in considerable detail leaving Klladernica on foot towards Klina

22 and Gjakove and on to Prizren, without any food, in a convoy consisting of

23 about 10.000 to 12.000 villagers, escorted by Serb forces.

24 After describing in further detail what happened along the route,

25 they eventually arrived at a village not far from Prizren. The Serbian

Page 3764

1 policemen then said they would be taken by bus to the border. After an

2 hour, a bus came and took them to the border at Zur on the 15th of April,

3 1999, where money was demanded from them and their personal documents were

4 taken away.

5 That is a very brief summary of his two statements, and I have no

6 further questions at this point.

7 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

8 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

9 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

10 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Januzi, when the police established a

11 checkpoint in your village, you did not leave the village then; is that

12 correct?

13 A. We left that day they came. We stayed until the evening, just

14 before dusk, and then we went, came back, and then we returned home to eat

15 supper. Before morning, before it was dawn, we went out again, and we put

16 our lives at risk. Up on the furthest hill, at that stage, Nibarici's

17 [phoen] family was buried.

18 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Januzi, could you just deal with the questions

19 you're asked, please, because we can get on more quickly that way.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Okay. I'll be brief.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. I'm talking about March 1998, that is to say, the appearance of

23 the police in Brocina [phoen], or rather, the establishment of the

24 checkpoint in March 1998. That did not disturb your everyday farm work;

25 is that right or is that not right?

Page 3765

1 A. It disturbed us, because there was sporadic gunfire in the early

2 hours of the morning and in the evening, so we had to leave our houses

3 early, at dawn, and return in the evening to eat and to have a little

4 rest.

5 Q. And which date are you speaking about?

6 A. From the moment they were stationed there on the 5th of March,

7 1998. That's what I mean. From that moment onwards, there was absolutely

8 no improvement in the quality of life in my village. The whole family had

9 to leave.

10 Q. Yes, but you continued with your usual farm work. On page 2 of

11 your statement, in paragraph 2, it says that. It doesn't mention gunfire,

12 only the establishment of a checkpoint, which did not disturb you in your

13 regular life. That's the way it is according to your own statement;

14 right?

15 MR. RYNEVELD: In fairness to the witness, Your Honour, if the

16 accused is referring to the second paragraph, since the accused does not

17 have a statement, can't read it, I think that the sentence about "used to

18 shoot sporadically in the air" ought to be put to him.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We continued working when the

20 checkpoint was withdrawn to another village, and that is when we thought

21 that we were a bit safer and started working. But when there was gunfire

22 from there as well - heavy artillery was used, mortars and so on - it was

23 more difficult in Broje, and that is why, on the 25th of March, we left

24 and started getting together about 7.000 to 8.000 people.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 3766












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Page 3767

1 Q. The 25th of March which year?

2 A. 1999.

3 Q. I asked you about 1998, several times, because the checkpoint was

4 established in March 1998, that is to say, a year earlier. As for this

5 year, judging by your statement, you did not have any problems then.

6 A. That year, 1998, we had problems. There was sporadic gunfire in

7 that region. People were being buried. One man and two women were buried

8 in the village of Vojnik. The family of Avni Bajriqi is another case.

9 And that same year of 1998, there was no security at all.

10 Q. Please, I will phrase my question very carefully. You did not

11 leave the village before a Serb policeman was killed in that village; is

12 that right?

13 A. The policeman was brought in the hills of the village of Resnik.

14 I do not know who killed him. I only know that from the date I'm

15 referring to, there's no peace in this household, so we had to spend our

16 life in the woods, coming back home before dusk and then leaving the house

17 again before dawn.

18 Q. In your village, at that time there was the KLA. Is that right or

19 is that not right?

20 A. There was a KLA, but not in my village. There's no wooded areas

21 in my village, i.e., no basis for a war. It is in the open. For it to

22 have a basis, we need to have wooded areas to hide in there. But neither

23 the people nor the KLA would have been in a position to be there, because

24 the terrain is inappropriate for war. There was a KLA present, but not

25 there.

Page 3768

1 Q. A little while ago you said that they took away a policeman into

2 the hills but that you did not know who killed him. If there was no KLA

3 in the village, who was it that took the policeman into the hills?

4 A. I don't know anything about this. I haven't followed this

5 incident. I didn't follow what the KLA was doing. I was dealing with my

6 family. My family has ten members, and I was concerned with gathering

7 them together, and then in Klladernica, and then we went off to Albania.

8 These were my concerns.

9 Q. Yes, but a short while ago you said that a policeman was taken

10 into the hills. That's what you said, not me. And since you say, "They

11 took a policeman into the hills," my question is: Who took a policeman

12 into the hills?

13 JUDGE MAY: He says he doesn't know.

14 A. I don't know. I don't know about this.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. I am just asking: What is the noun that stands next to the verb

17 "did"? Or when it says, "They took him." So what's the noun preceding

18 "took"? What's the subject? Who is it?

19 JUDGE MAY: He can't help you further. He says he doesn't know.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] All right.

21 Q. So you do not know that the policeman was killed by the KLA; is

22 that right?

23 JUDGE MAY: He's dealt with it.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] All right.

25 A. I don't know.

Page 3769

1 Q. In 1998 and 1999, several times you left Brocina and went back to

2 Brocina, together with your family; is that right?

3 A. That's right. That went on for almost a year.

4 Q. Otherwise we heard, a few minutes ago, from your summary, that you

5 went through different villages in that area during that year. Is that

6 right?

7 A. That's right. That's right.

8 Q. Yes. And in those different villages, then, did you encounter

9 many members of the KLA?

10 A. I was a refugee and I had left my own village. I had become a

11 refugee, among friends. I didn't see the KLA.

12 Q. And do you know that throughout your area, that is to say this

13 area around Srbica, there were a lot of KLA members? Are you aware of

14 that fact?

15 A. Skenderaj is 13 kilometres away from me. Thirteen kilometres.

16 That's along the paved road, apart from another kilometre and a half to my

17 own house. I don't know what happened in Skenderaj. I didn't go there

18 any time during the war.

19 Q. I'm not asking you about Srbica. I said in the Srbica area, in

20 the municipality where you were. I did not ask you about the town of

21 Srbica itself, because I heard from this summary that we heard at the

22 outset that you passed through 52 villages, if I heard it correctly.

23 Fifty-two villages in your area. Is that right or is that not right?

24 A. I stayed about seven or eight months in Klladernica and then I

25 stayed in Turjan, where I had friends. There we felt safer because of the

Page 3770

1 forest nearby. It was better wooded than my village. I didn't stay a

2 single day in Skenderaj.

3 Q. But you lived in the municipality of Srbica. Isn't that right?

4 A. That's right. We lived in that municipality, but on the border

5 with the municipality of Klina.

6 Q. When I say "Srbica," I'm referring to the municipality of Srbica

7 and not the town of Srbica. We heard from the Prosecution that you passed

8 through 52 villages during that year or year and a half.

9 JUDGE MAY: It must be a misunderstanding.

10 MR. RYNEVELD: If I may correct it since I authored the summary

11 and not the witness. The forces attacked 52 villages. As a result of

12 that, the witness moved from village to village. I didn't suggest that he

13 moved to all 52 villages. It's my summary and not the witness's

14 statement. What's correct is what's in his statement, and the accused has

15 that at paragraph 2 and 3.

16 THE ACCUSED [Interpretation] All right. Then I misunderstood

17 this, that the Prosecutor was speaking of the witness's testimony, because

18 he did invoke the witness's statement when he referred to 52 villages. So

19 he spoke of something that the witness did not refer to in his own

20 statement. This created that confusion on my part. Let us proceed now.

21 MR. RYNEVELD: With respect, Your Honour, I did not confuse. What

22 I said in the summary is: "He describes an ongoing offensive by Serb

23 forces during which time they attacked about 52 villages in the Drenica

24 region and repeatedly shelled his village of Broje." Next sentence: "As

25 a result, the witness and his family were forced to constantly move from

Page 3771

1 village to village over a period of 14 months."

2 That is what I said. The accused has made a connection somehow

3 that the witness travelled through 52 villages. That's not what I said.

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let's move on. It's the statement which is the

5 evidence. Nothing that the Prosecutor says is evidence.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let me just explain. If I made a

7 mistake, I made it because I assumed that the summary is a summary of the

8 witness's statement, not of anything else.

9 So could you please explain this to me? Is the summary a summary

10 of the witness's statement or does it contain any other kind of

11 statement?

12 JUDGE MAY: It's been explained to you often enough before. Now,

13 do you want to ask the witness any more questions?

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Of course.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Are you aware of the killing of Blagoje Jovanovic in the village

17 of Kostrc in your vicinity?

18 A. It's not near my village. There was my village and then there was

19 Turicevc, Kopilic i Eperm, and then Klladernica and then Kostrc. I don't

20 know about this. I only --

21 Q. And do you know when the members of the KLA - that was on the 13th

22 of June, 1998 - set on fire 12 Serb houses of the family of Smigic in the

23 village of Leocina, and when they abducted five members of the Smigic

24 family? Have you heard of this case? Are you aware of that? This was in

25 June 1998.

Page 3772

1 A. I don't know of this case, because I was with a great crowd of

2 seven or eight members of the family, old people, women, children. We all

3 gathered together, thinking -- we thought that nobody would do anything to

4 us.

5 Q. And do you know about when the members of the KLA attacked the

6 village of Rudnik, when they set houses on fire, the houses of Radivoj

7 Kovacevic and Nicifor Kovacevic on the 15th of June 1998? Do you know of

8 that event?

9 A. I have no knowledge of this. I have no knowledge of this matter.

10 Q. And do you have any knowledge concerning the killing of Zivojin

11 Milic from the village of Sibovac? And actually, he was killed by the

12 village of Trnavci on the 17th of June, 1998.

13 A. No. I have no knowledge of this. I don't know anything about

14 this matter at all.

15 JUDGE MAY: Again, Mr. Milosevic, it seems a fairly pointless

16 exercise to go on asking questions when the witness knows nothing about

17 it, as he's made plain.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, obviously witnesses hardly

19 know a thing about this.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. But then if you don't know anything about this, if you do not

22 remember, have you at least heard of the attack on the 26th of March,

23 1999, in the village of Likovac when policemen were killed, namely Milan

24 Pavlovic, Dusan Trifunovic, Ljubivoje Zivkovic, Dragivoje Gajic?

25 JUDGE MAY: There's no point -- there's no point reading out these

Page 3773

1 names.

2 Do you know anything, Mr. Januzi, about this matter that's being

3 put to you?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I have no knowledge of these

5 things, of the things asked because I was only trying to look after my own

6 family. I only saw Klladernica, as I said a little before. That's where

7 I had my sister, friends. And then in that smaller village of Turjan and

8 Klladernica. I don't know anything about Likofci.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. And do you know anything about any crime, any killing, any

11 torching of houses, any abduction, any similar crime that was carried out

12 by members of the KLA in your area, either against the Serbs or against

13 the Albanians? Are you aware of any such crime?

14 A. I have no knowledge of these things. I don't know. I only know

15 what I have declared is correct. It is true, and I don't deny anything

16 that I have stated. As for other villages, who was killed, I don't know.

17 Nor have I put anything like that in my statement, nothing about the

18 village of Likofci.

19 Q. I think there is no point in putting any further questions to this

20 witness, for obvious reasons.

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Have the amici got any questions?

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I shall truly try

23 to be brief for the same reasons. Let me just dwell on two things.

24 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

25 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Sadik, when you spoke of something that we

Page 3774

1 already dealt with, this offensive that had been launched against 52

2 villages, as a matter of fact, was all of this in Drenica?

3 A. All of it.

4 Q. And can you explain what "offensive" means? Were these clashes

5 between the KLA and the army and the police?

6 A. I don't know anything about clashes of this kind. I know that

7 there was slaughter and that I fled with my family. And I was just trying

8 to preserve my family. And I don't know about these things. And what

9 happened in the war, I don't know.

10 Q. All of this was in 1998? All the things that you spoke of here,

11 the offensive, all of that was in 1998? And this led to --

12 A. [Previous translation continues]... eight.

13 Q. And this led to you going from village to village for 14 months.

14 It was because of that offensive; is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And just one more thing. This second statement of yours, the 21st

17 of October --

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, for your benefit,

19 this is the second statement, page 3, paragraph 5.

20 Q. Over here you talked about the 12th of April, when you set out,

21 when you wanted to leave the place where you were, and then you came to

22 the neighbourhood of Djakovica. And now you stated -- you stated the

23 following --

24 A. Can you please not try and get away from what I've spoken about?

25 On March the 28th, 1998, I'm the only survivor of what happen at Izbica,

Page 3775












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Page 3776

1 and you are veering away into other statement. Please, what I've stated

2 over there, let's focus on those, nothing else.

3 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. We've got your statement, and it's

4 been summarised and we've read it. So you need have no fear that the

5 Court hasn't got it and hasn't read it. But counsel just wants to ask you

6 something shortly about a second statement which you made, and perhaps

7 you'd just listen to him, and if you can, answer the question.

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. This is what I would like to do, sir. Indeed I do not wish to

10 confuse you. You said at a particular point in this statement that a

11 soldier who was there at that place where you were said to you that you

12 should not wait there because NATO would bomb the bridge. Is that

13 correct?

14 A. Yes. What I have written there is true and correct. They told

15 us, "Go away from here, because NATO could bomb." However, it would have

16 been best for us to have been allowed to get through there and reach the

17 Qafe e Prushit rather than having to travel for about 80 kilometres

18 without no food or anything at all, through Gjakove, through Prizren, 35

19 kilometres, 80 kilometres, or whatever the distance is. It would have

20 been better to have been allowed to get through the Qafe e Prushit. And

21 they wouldn't allow us. They turned us back. It was in the evening.

22 Q. Mr. Sadik, I just want to ask you one more thing. Again in the

23 same place, you said, "When we moved three kilometres away, I saw a NATO

24 aeroplane and I heard the sound of it. I saw the smoke when the bridge

25 was bombed." Is that correct? I have no further questions of you.

Page 3777

1 A. Yes, it is correct. Three -- about five or six kilometres from

2 where we were. Yes, that was true. I'm not changing anything of what

3 I've written there.

4 Q. So did this make you seek shelter, move away from there fast?

5 A. Not very fast. We didn't leave speedily because the family had to

6 go and try and get some food. It had gone three days without any food.

7 So they weren't running or delaying. That was about 10 or 15 minutes,

8 that interval.

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further

10 questions.

11 MR. RYNEVELD: Nothing arising. Thank you, Your Honour.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You haven't asked about what I went

13 through at the Izbica massacre, it would appear.

14 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Januzi, we have in fact -- as I said, we've got

15 your statement before us. We've seen what you went through. We've heard

16 it summarised. We've been able to read about it. And that concludes your

17 evidence. Thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give it, and you're

18 free to go.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

20 JUDGE MAY: We'll adjourn now. Tomorrow morning, half past nine.

21 [The witness withdrew]

22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.07 p.m.,

23 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 25th day

24 of April 2002, at 9.30 a.m.