Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4710

1 Monday, 13 May 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

7 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honour. If I may, just before we start

8 today, just so that there's no confusion about the order of witnesses, at

9 the end the last day, we did provide a further letter outlining a witness

10 -- proposed order of calling witnesses, and as you can see, we have the

11 present witness listed first, then Isuf Loku, followed by General

12 Drewienkiewicz, DZ. The proposal this morning is that after this

13 witness's cross-examination completes, we would propose calling General

14 Drewienkiewicz for the remainder of the cross-examination to ensure that

15 he is dealt with and can leave today because, as you know, it's very, very

16 difficult; followed then by Isuf Loku for the balance of the day. It's

17 our proposal that that should take the rest of the day, and we would not

18 start any further witnesses after Isuf Loku.

19 That is, of course, my proposal, and it's always up to the Court.

20 JUDGE MAY: The general has come back for today, is that right,

21 and only today?

22 MR. RYNEVELD: Today and only today. It just seemed to me, out of

23 an abundance of caution, it would be smarter for me to propose that

24 General DZ go after the cross-examination of this witness is complete.

25 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Yes, it's to complete the cross-examination,

Page 4711

1 which is due to take two hours.

2 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour.


4 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I too have something to say first of

6 all. During the weekend, I read the statement of some other kind of

7 protected witness, K3. Now, I did not receive the name of that particular

8 witness, although I see that he has been planned for testimony tomorrow.

9 So I request that his name be disclosed to me. And I should like to draw

10 your attention to the fact that, in reading his statement, I was able to

11 conclude only that it was a trickster that we are dealing with or some

12 sick person, because from the statement we can see that he was an

13 employee, a clerk of --

14 JUDGE MAY: Let's deal with the cross-examination now. We'll come

15 to those -- any other witnesses tomorrow. It may be that at the end of

16 today, we can have a discussion about them. But the witness is here and

17 we should conclude his evidence, and we can come back to these issues

18 later. Yes.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now, how much time have I got left

20 for this witness? Could you be so kind and tell me, please?

21 JUDGE MAY: Three-quarters of an hour.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. At least bear in mind

23 that we didn't start at 9.00 sharp.


25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 4712

1 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]

2 Q. You said that the units of the KLA left Djakovica at the beginning

3 of 1999 and left to take to the hills, as you said, not to draw the

4 civilian population into a war. Now, how come you know the reasons for

5 their withdrawal?

6 A. I never said that the KLA units were in Gjakove. I only said that

7 those KLA units were not in Gjakove.

8 Q. All right. Then let me put that question a different way. If

9 they left the Djakovica region -- all I'm going to ask you is this, and

10 related to things that happened when you were there, and as far as I was

11 able to understand, you were there in Djakovica from the end of 1998.

12 Now, who, if they left the Djakovica reason, who then killed

13 Gasper Karachi [phoen]? That took place on the 30th of January, 1999;

14 Arben Seluku, which took place on the 20th of February, 1999. And in both

15 these cases members of the Verification Mission were present, even as many

16 as 40 of them, actually, reporters and so on. Now the next person,

17 Sylejman Bajrami, on the 28th of February, 1999; Fadil Tolaj, on the 10th

18 of March, 1999; Fetih Domi on --

19 JUDGE MAY: Let the -- let the witness -- let the witness answer.

20 You're reading out a list of names. He's got to try and remember if you

21 want him to answer.

22 Mr. Peraj, can you help us about the alleged murder of these

23 people?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know who killed these

25 persons, and this is the first time for me to hear most of these names.

Page 4713

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Well, you were in Djakovica, at that time. Now, Arben Seluku, for

3 example, was killed in the town itself on the 20th of February, with the

4 presence of the Verification Mission, the OSCE mission. Is it possible

5 that you knew nothing about that, in view of your position and post of an

6 officer in the army working in the command of the town?

7 A. I did not work. I was never engaged in who was getting killed or

8 didn't know anything. I might have heard of some events when they

9 appeared in the media, but of this, I know nothing.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, would you clarify for me, because

11 it's not clear: You're alleging that these persons, or some of them at

12 any rate, were killed in the presence of the Verification Mission. Do you

13 mean to suggest that the members were present at the killing or that they

14 were present in the village?

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Djakovica is a town, and these

16 people were killed by the KLA, and those killings were verified by the

17 verifiers who, of course, after the killing -- they weren't present at the

18 actual killing, during the actual killing, but they went to verify

19 afterwards. And I'm mentioning these people, the people who were killed,

20 at the time during which the KLA says there were no KLA members in the

21 area, in the region. So quite simply, as you can see, he does not -- he

22 knows nothing about that, and Djakovica is not a large town.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Now, have you heard of the killing of Sabah Zeki or Xhemail Smaci?

25 That took place in February 1999, all of it.

Page 4714

1 A. I said earlier that this has nothing to do with the statement I

2 have given here. I know nothing of this. Please ask me about what is

3 contained in my statement.

4 Q. All right. So you know nothing about any one of these killings

5 that were perpetrated in Djakovica at the time when you claim there were

6 no KLA members there. So not a single one. I don't want to carry on

7 enumerating the names, because if I understood you correctly, you say you

8 know nothing about a single one of them; is that right?

9 A. I may tell you that in Gjakove, during the period I was there,

10 there's never been fighting between the KLA and the Serb forces.

11 Q. All right. You said that the KLA units would carry out operations

12 from time to time, and as you say, these were against the Serb forces.

13 Now, did they endeavour not to -- to pull the civilian population into a

14 war, and that's the reason why they took to the hills and woods, as you

15 said?

16 A. I said already that there wasn't any fighting in the city. In the

17 mountains, in the forest there may have been and certainly there has been

18 fighting.

19 Q. Very well. I understood that it was your duty during the

20 aggression to transport the bodies of the soldiers who were killed. Is

21 that correct?

22 A. First, I wish to say that there wasn't any aggression. It was a

23 NATO intervention not an aggression.

24 JUDGE MAY: Don't bother about that. Just deal with the question,

25 if you would. Don't bother about the comments.

Page 4715

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is true that I carried the bodies

2 from Gjakove to Prizren, Prishtina, and Nis.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. And who killed those young men, the young men that you

5 transported?

6 A. I didn't see who killed them. I know that they were killed in the

7 fighting and that the opposing forces killed them.

8 Q. And who were those opposing forces, as you say?

9 A. Of course it's evident; the Serb forces and the KLA.

10 Q. Otherwise, the KLA at the beginning of 1999 planned an operation

11 from Albania. Is that true?

12 A. I know nothing, but I think it must not be true.

13 Q. Well, you said something like that on page 15, the second

14 paragraph, in your statement from the 12th to the 15th of February, 2001.

15 Can you remember whether that was true or not?

16 A. That was publicised by the information media from Belgrade,

17 allegedly that Albanians are fleeing from Kosova for Albania, especially

18 the young people. And there in Albania, they are getting organised to

19 form larger units so that when NATO decides to send in its infantry

20 troops, those forces will allegedly join NATO forces and take part in its

21 operations. But this was not the case, and this was taken as a pretext to

22 fight and to exterminate hundreds of Albanians, especially young people,

23 and not allow them to go to Albania. This was used as a pretext, and this

24 is one of the reasons why many Albanians were killed, massacred, and shot

25 dead at various police checkpoints before they were sent to Albania from

Page 4716

1 Kosova.

2 Q. Please. I'm going to read out on page 15 of your statement a

3 passage. It says: "The KLA," that is one of the headings. It says, "The

4 KLA had left the Djakovica area by the time the NATO bombing started and

5 planned operations from Albania. There was no real resistance from the

6 KLA from the beginning of 1999."

7 Were you telling the truth then or are you telling the truth now?

8 A. It is true that some of them went outside the borders of Kosova

9 because they were pressured by the Serb forces to leave those places where

10 they were situated.

11 Q. So is what you said in your statement correct?

12 A. It is correct as it is correct what I said now. I could talk

13 about it for days, if you like.

14 Q. All right. Quite obviously we don't have days, we just have

15 minutes, but I merely wanted to take note of what you said. Now, is it

16 true that in June 1999, in your village, the 137th KLA brigade was

17 present?

18 A. Were not in my village.

19 Q. All right. In the village of Ramoc?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you, through a member of your family, warned them that an

22 attack was being planned, and they succeeded in escaping; is that right?

23 A. I spoke about it also Thursday. I already showed that an attack

24 was going to take place. First, I didn't know that there was any KLA

25 troops there, but I knew that about nine families were in a valley in the

Page 4717

1 south part of Ramoc, and I feared that they would fare the same things as

2 the inhabitants of Meja and Korenica. That's why I went there, to warn

3 them about what might happen, and wanted to see what was going on there.

4 Q. Just give shorter answers to my questions. So when I ask you is

5 it correct, you can just say yes or no.

6 You said you want to warn several families. And in the third

7 paragraph of page 15 you say -- it is the following paragraph after the

8 one I quoted: "At the beginning of June 1999, the army surrounded the

9 KLA's 137th Brigade." Then it says in brackets, "About 126 uniformed

10 members and 40 volunteers."

11 So you're talking about a figure of 126 members of the brigade and

12 40 volunteers. So in all, that is 166 KLA members and not nine families

13 that you wanted to warn. So when were you speaking the truth; then or

14 now?

15 A. The truth is also what I said in my statement, but I wanted to

16 make clear why I went there, namely, to save those families that were

17 close to this KLA unit when it was there. And then I found out, after the

18 operation that was launched that the people were really there. And I

19 suggested to them to leave so that they wouldn't face anything bad, the

20 population and whoever was there, because we were talking about the war to

21 come to an end.

22 Q. Your explanation is quite clear, but I'm referring you to your

23 statement.

24 Now, during the NATO aggression, before that, in the Djakovica

25 area, there was the KLA Operative Zone of Dukagjin; is that right? Yes or

Page 4718

1 no; just say yes or no.

2 A. I didn't say anywhere in my statement the name of Dukagjin

3 Operational Zone.

4 Q. All right. Now, in that fighting, the fighting that you say that

5 the KLA members were few and that they had withdrawn, can you say how many

6 soldiers were killed? Because you transported the bodies to the towns you

7 mentioned. In the Djakovica area. I'm just referring to the Djakovica

8 area for the moment.

9 A. What soldiers do you mean?

10 Q. The soldiers belonging to the Yugoslav army, of which you were a

11 member at the time.

12 A. I know that approximately about 40 of them were killed.

13 Q. Well, I have a list of 61 soldiers who were killed in that

14 fighting, in those battles, but we can't go through that all now and

15 analyse it. You say 40.

16 Now, you also say that the MUP, according to your information, had

17 a settling of accounts to carry out with the KLA; is that correct?

18 A. I said that it was likely but not it really happened.

19 Q. All right. So this is your assumption. You are putting forward

20 information about the MUP and its armaments, but you don't know that data

21 for sure. You're making assumptions there too; is that right?

22 A. I'm not making assumptions because -- if the Judges allow me, I'd

23 like to give some figures about this.

24 JUDGE MAY: About the MUP and the KLA; is that right?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About the number of the victims and

Page 4719

1 the missing persons.

2 JUDGE MAY: Let the accused finish his cross-examination and then

3 counsel for the Prosecution can re-examine, if he thinks it's important.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. You say that the Yugoslav army tried to place all the units under

6 its command but that some individuals were working for a Greater Serbia

7 because that was the idea that the politicians had. Now, who asked for

8 that Greater Serbia? How -- what do you base that statement of yours on,

9 in fact?

10 A. On the basis of what I said in my statement. It was not me but

11 you and your scholars, your politicians, had already stated that Kosova

12 was a cradle of Serbia, and they kept saying it in various information

13 media. Then there was a song, "From Vardar to Triglav, this is all Serb

14 lands." These were sufficient for us to believe in this theory, because

15 we could hear that everywhere.

16 Q. [Previous translation continues]... "From Vardar to Triglav, from

17 Djerdap to the Adriatic," that was a song that was called -- the title of

18 which was "Yugoslavia" and it was a very popular song, a very happy tune

19 and a very nice song and the name of that song was

20 "Yugoslavia." And nobody sung what you are claiming that they sung --

21 sang. But let's move on. I have very little time.

22 You've been mentioning people who had daily meetings, but you

23 never attended those daily meetings; is that correct?

24 A. I attended almost regularly the information or briefings that were

25 being held in the headquarters where I was stationed, but I also took part

Page 4720

1 in other meetings which happened by accident when I happened to be there,

2 you know, looking after some things there.

3 Q. On page 8, in the last paragraph of your statement dated the 12th

4 of February, you speak of meetings but you do not mention yourself. You

5 do not mention your own participation in these meetings. Is that right or

6 not?

7 A. I said -- I mentioned, tried to explain when I was present in

8 those briefings or meetings. I don't see the point of going on with this

9 topic.

10 Q. Well, the point is that you did not attend these meetings, and

11 this is what it says in your statement. It just says in your statement

12 that you attended some informal meeting. Is that right or is that not

13 right?

14 A. I said before and I'll say it again: I took part in both regular

15 meetings and occasional meetings.

16 Q. You spoke of an informal meeting, and this was in a private house,

17 at that. Was it a dinner or was it some kind of a party? What was this

18 informal meeting that you refer to at a private house?

19 A. It was not a party or a wedding. It was the day when Ponosevac

20 was buried, and then people gathered from the MUP and the army to take

21 part in the funeral, and I happened to be there by chance.

22 Q. All right. So that was no meeting. It was people who were

23 sitting there and who came to attend the funeral. So it's a good thing

24 you've clarified this.

25 You also talk about the way in which the MUP made decisions and

Page 4721

1 whether they consulted with the army of Yugoslavia or not, but you don't

2 know anything for sure about that? You do not have any reliable

3 information, you're just making assumptions again, aren't you?

4 A. This is not speculation, but these things were said at this short

5 meeting, and indeed these things -- then these things subsequently

6 happened in Meja and Korenica.

7 Q. We'll get to Meja. I just wanted to establish that this was no

8 meeting. It was an informal gathering at a private house on the occasion

9 of this man's funeral, this man who had been killed by the KLA terrorists,

10 and that is quite different from what you had been saying.

11 JUDGE MAY: Well, it's not -- it's not really. It's your comment,

12 Mr. Milosevic, in fairness to the witness.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. You mention in your second statement that a friend of yours from

15 military security told you about the plan for ethnic -- the ethnic

16 cleansing of Albanians. Do you know that, as far as communications in our

17 country are concerned, for years this expression "ethnic cleansing" was

18 used to denote a crime in public communication, in the media, when people

19 talk to each other. Generally speaking, "ethnic cleansing" always denoted

20 a crime. Is that right or is that not right?

21 A. First, put your questions one by one and not with ten questions in

22 one sentence, because then I can answer more clearly.

23 Q. All right. Is it correct that in public life and in private life,

24 among people, in the media, the expression "ethnic cleansing" was used to

25 denote a crime, for years?

Page 4722

1 A. I can say freely that there was ethnic cleansing both in Kosova

2 and in my home in the municipality of Gjakove. You can ask someone else

3 for a more detailed analysis.

4 JUDGE MAY: Try to answer the question, if you would. The

5 question was: Is it right that in public life and indeed in the media and

6 in private life, the expression "ethnic cleansing" was used to denote a

7 crime?

8 Now, doubtless the accused is talking about the former Yugoslavia.

9 Is that right or not, or can you not assist?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's quite right that it was

11 mentioned in the media that ethnic cleansing was a crime.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. So a friend from the military security said to you that a crime

14 would be carried out. That is one side of the matter. And the other is

15 that you did not refer to this in your statement that you made two and a

16 half months after the events concerned, not even the first one you gave a

17 year or so before the second statement. Why did you never mention that

18 before, that somebody told you that a crime would be carried out?

19 A. First I should say he did not say that it would happen but it did

20 happen. And in that informal meeting, in that conversation, it was

21 mentioned that the terrain would be cleansed of the population.

22 Q. That is to say that he was telling you that a crime had been

23 planned. Yes or no.

24 A. He didn't say it was planned. These were not things that were

25 unknown. You didn't have to write it on posters. But they were very,

Page 4723

1 very clear measures, and what happened, happened.

2 JUDGE MAY: The question was: Why didn't you mention this

3 conversation in your first statement? That is the statement of the 18th

4 of April, 2000.

5 A. Perhaps at that time I didn't remember.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. All right. This will suffice as an answer.

8 In the village of Meja, the officer Prascevic was killed and a few

9 other persons, including the brother of the local policeman --

10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the name. It was

11 read out very fast.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. I did not hear your answer.

14 A. I didn't understand that a question was being put to me.

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Repeat the question, please.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. You mention, you mention that in the village of Meja, the KLA

18 killed Prascevic, a MUP officer, in April and four other men, including

19 the brother of a local policeman Shegrad. Is that correct? That was my

20 question.

21 A. I know from information we got from the army, and it was also

22 published, that Inspector Prascevic and other policemen, five in all, fell

23 into an ambush of the KLA and were killed. That is my answer.

24 Q. All right. You mention a meeting where allegedly Stojanovic

25 issued an order to carry out a retaliation because of Prascevic. Is that

Page 4724

1 correct?

2 A. He didn't say that he would take revenge.

3 Q. You said -- you said - we just clarified this - that at this

4 meeting before the funeral, he said that heads would roll, et cetera.

5 A. Please. I didn't mention the word "revenge" but he said that at

6 least a hundred heads must roll and that everything should be cleared up.

7 And I believe he said it from fury after, because he had -- because

8 Prascevic was his friend.

9 Q. Yes, at the funeral. But this Stojanovic who you mentioned as

10 having issued the order, he was a good friend of yours, wasn't he?

11 A. I knew him because he -- we came from the same place and we had --

12 we were on friendly terms.

13 Q. All right. Let's move on to this central event of yours. You say

14 that this operation was commanded by General Lazarevic; is that right?

15 A. Yes, that's right.

16 Q. And you claim that this action was carried out in the village of

17 Meja against the civilian population; is that right?

18 A. Yes, that's quite right.

19 Q. That is to say the commander of the corps commanded some operation

20 against the civilian population of a village. Is that your assertion as

21 an army officer?

22 A. It is not the question of one village but of various villages of

23 Reka e Keqe, and Carragojs valley. And I mention in my statement, please,

24 that the operation was led by General Lazarevic from Gjakove, and General

25 Kotur and Colonel Stankovic were in the field as well as the police

Page 4725

1 officers from the village of Duzhnja.

2 Q. Please. Let's not waste any time. I need precise answers to

3 precise questions. This operation, as you call it, was it an operation

4 that was against the KLA? Yes or no.

5 A. There was no KLA at all in that area, because on the 27th and the

6 28th, not a single member of the Yugoslav army or the police forces was

7 killed and nor anybody from the KLA, and nobody was wounded. It is very

8 well-known who was -- who suffered in this operation and who prepared it.

9 Q. All right. All right. Just make it as short as possible.

10 I took this map that you provided. Let's not put it on the

11 overhead projector because this is going to take up a lot of time. We can

12 put it on the overhead projector, on the other hand. However, since you

13 claim that this was not an operation against the KLA but that it was

14 against the civilian population, please take a look at it. How many

15 places are there here on the map? The region of Kosare, the road between

16 Djakovica and Decani, that's where Meja is and Ponosevac and Stubla, and

17 the area of the village of Morina and the village of Molic. I'm just

18 mentioning a number, a number of villages in which soldiers were killed by

19 the KLA. That is to say, lives were lost.

20 And look at this. For example, on the 21st of April --

21 JUDGE MAY: What is the question?

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. My question is: Since the witness claims that this was an

24 operation against the civilian population, not against the KLA, how is it

25 then possible that on the 21st of April, the KLA killed there Arifaj

Page 4726

1 Naser, Lazarevic, Ljubodrag, soldiers of the VJ? Lazarevic Boban on the

2 21st of April. Then Prascevic Milutin on the 21st of April. Slavkovic

3 Zoran --

4 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness answer. Let the witness answer. No.

5 Now, you've heard what's been put to you. What is said is that if

6 this was an operation which did not involve the KLA, how is it that

7 Yugoslav soldiers were killed, if that is the case?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, Your Honour. I mentioned

9 before and I say again very seriously that during this operation on the

10 27th and 28th of April, 1999, in the area that I mentioned, the Carragojs

11 valley, including all the villages roundabout, not a single soldier was

12 killed during these two days, either by the Yugoslav forces and the police

13 or by the KLA; and only civilians were killed. This is entirely the

14 truth.

15 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, before we go on, do you want the

16 witness to answer anything about the plan which is on the overhead

17 projector or can we put it back?

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is a question that goes to the

19 heart of the matter, because this is what it's all about. I took his map,

20 and I compared it to the list of killed members of the army of Yugoslavia.

21 So in that area, in the month of April, many members of the army of

22 Yugoslavia were killed, and the operation was carried out against the KLA

23 that had killed these members of the army of Yugoslavia. There's a

24 different question as to whether other soldiers were killed on that day,

25 but here I have some information that the witness would have to be aware

Page 4727

1 of. This is an entire list of soldiers who were killed on that day. I'm

2 not the one who drew this map, he did.

3 JUDGE MAY: How many soldiers do you suggest were killed during

4 the operation in the valley?

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll give you the exact dates. 1,

6 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21. 1, 2,

7 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 30, 31, 35, 6, 7, 8 -- 38. Thirty-eight soldiers

8 lost their lives.

9 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Very well. Let the witness -- the witness

10 is giving evidence. Let him deal with it.

11 What is suggested is that 38 soldiers -- 38 soldiers lost their

12 lives. Now, as far as you're concerned, is there any truth in that or

13 not?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe more or less soldiers were

15 killed, but they were killed in the region of the border area in Koshare,

16 a place called Potok Moliqi, then along the borderline where fighting was

17 taking place now and again. But the fact that there were no KLA troops in

18 that area, probably they have withdrawn and there has been fighting. But

19 in that area that I have presented in the map, there wasn't any fighting.

20 There wasn't any casualties on either side. Only the civilians suffered;

21 women, children, young people, innocent people. Totally innocent people

22 suffered.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Please. It is precisely in this red circle of your map are the

25 locations where these 38 soldiers were killed from the 11th and the 21st

Page 4728

1 of April onwards. All these different dates. So this was no two-day

2 operation. This went on for several weeks. The killing of soldiers --

3 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, the witness has said that's not the

4 case. He's given his evidence about it. If you want to call evidence to

5 the contrary, you can. Now, you have two more questions.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. The village of Stubla, Ponosevac or, for example, the village of

8 Opljaz or Orize that is near Meja, is that the border area? Or the road

9 between Djakovica and Decani; is that the border area? Look at this

10 village here. It is in the very depth of his map. Stubla, Ponosevac,

11 Buncevac. Please look at that. It is in the very background. The

12 village of Meja as well. And people were killed in the village of Meja.

13 Is that correct or not?

14 JUDGE MAY: He's said not. He's given his evidence about it, and

15 there's no point arguing. Yes, you've got one more question and then

16 that's the time.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I think that it is unfair to

18 restrict my time with this witness to only one more question. I have a

19 great many questions left.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Do you know, since you said last time that you knew about the

22 order that paramilitary forces were not permitted, do you know of the

23 order issued by the Supreme Command that fire may not be opened if

24 civilian lives may be jeopardised? Are you aware of that order as a

25 member of the command in Djakovica?

Page 4729

1 A. If the laws were implemented, especially the war laws, certainly

2 what happened wouldn't have happened, but unfortunately, those laws were

3 not enforced.

4 JUDGE MAY: So there was a law, was there, or an order that

5 paramilitaries were not to open fire if civilian lives would be

6 jeopardised? Was there such an order or law?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There wasn't such a law.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. I'm not talking about a law. I'm talking about an order, the

10 order not to open fire if civilians may be jeopardised. As a member of

11 the army of Yugoslavia, are you aware of that or not? I'm not talking

12 about paramilitaries now. Now I'm talking about the army and the police.

13 A. Personally, I know that no force, not only in Yugoslavia, Serbia,

14 or Kosovo, but not a force anywhere has a right to fire whether there are

15 civilian lives jeopardised. This is a general principle. But there

16 wasn't any such order per se to prevent them from shooting, firing.

17 JUDGE MAY: We must now bring the examination to a close.

18 Mr. Wladimiroff, do you have any questions for the witness?

19 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Yes, Your Honour, but it would only take ten

20 minutes. Perhaps you could allow the accused a few minutes more.

21 JUDGE MAY: No. We've decided on the time.


23 Questioned by Mr. Wladimiroff:

24 Q. Mr. Peraj, could you assist the Court with this by answering to a

25 few questions about the Meja incident: You told the Court about a

Page 4730

1 military report of the incident prepared the next day; is that right?

2 A. If you are asking me about the report that was prepared in the

3 house of culture in Gjakove after the murder or massacre of Meja, yes.

4 Q. You did not mention that report in your first statement of the

5 18th of April, 2000. Why?

6 A. I said even earlier that probably for the moment it didn't come to

7 my mind, but I am repeating that even now, if I could, I would have given

8 more ample facts and concrete evidence to prove my point.

9 Q. Your first statement was given one year after the incident; was it

10 not?

11 A. Yes. You have the dates there in my statements, and this is the

12 truth.

13 Q. Have you read the report or have you only seen it?

14 A. Which report are you talking about?

15 Q. The military report that was drawn up or prepared directly after

16 the incident on the 28th of April, 1999.

17 A. I saw it with my own eyes. I saw them, Major Zdravko, writing it

18 on the computer.

19 Q. May I repeat the question: Did you read it or did you see it?

20 A. I saw him writing it and then I read it partially.

21 Q. What was the contents of the report? Was it a military report

22 about the assessment of the situation in the area, or was it a more or

23 less police report stating the facts of the incident, or was it a report

24 of any other kind?

25 A. The report was to inform the Supreme Command of what was -- or

Page 4731

1 what had happened in that operation which was undertaken.

2 Q. What do you mean by "Supreme Command"?

3 A. The report was sent to the corps command which, for its part,

4 would collect all the reports and would report it back to the 3rd Army, up

5 to Belgrade, to the Supreme Command that was in Belgrade. In the report,

6 it said that during the operation in May [as interpreted], 68 terrorists

7 were liquidated, it said expressly, while in Korenica village, 74

8 terrorists were liquidated. And there were other facts and information

9 given about what happened during this operation.

10 Q. How come you were able to read the report?

11 A. I worked in that office. That was part of that command where I

12 worked. And they used to write to prepare such information as well as

13 other information. We were responsible to get the necessary death

14 certificates for those who were killed. It was part of the job of the

15 Gjakove command.

16 Q. Was it given to you --

17 MR. RYNEVELD: Excuse me. Just while the matter is still on the

18 screen, I wonder if we should get clarified, at line 24, 10:00:05 whether

19 during the operation in May or Meja. It could make a difference later on

20 and it might be more difficult to catch. Perhaps, Mr. Wladimiroff, you

21 could get that clarified now.


23 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.


25 Q. The transcript indicates that you said that the report dealt with

Page 4732

1 the operation in May. Did you mean the month of May or did you refer to

2 the place of Meja?

3 A. I am talking about the month of April, 27, 28th of April, not May.

4 Q. Thank you. Now, was this report given to you to read or was it on

5 a table and you took the opportunity to read it?

6 A. I was there when it was being written. I read it out of curiosity

7 first. It was not secret from me. I didn't receive any written report,

8 of course, but the report was there, was being written there and addressed

9 to a higher command than ours for its information, which would then send

10 it to the Supreme Command in Belgrade.

11 Q. Would you please answer my next questions as short as possible.

12 Simply answer the question and not deal with other matters I'm not asking.

13 Now, by whom was the report prepared?

14 A. Allow me to give you a brief explanation. Every day there was a

15 briefing in the morning held between the military and the police officers

16 in the morning, 8.00 in the morning, and 6.00 in the afternoon. And when

17 there was a person who got all the notes of these briefings and gave those

18 notes to the major to prepare a report which was then signed by the

19 garrison commander and sent to higher chains of command.

20 Q. So the answer is the major prepared the report; is that right?

21 A. The major prepared it on the basis of the notes served to him from

22 other structures. He was then responsible for compiling the whole report.

23 Q. So what did you see, the report drawn up by this major or the

24 other report that were given to him?

25 A. The report took these notes from the notebook that was kept during

Page 4733

1 these briefings that I mentioned. Then he referred to those notes to

2 complete the report.

3 Q. The question was -- the question was: What did you see or read,

4 the notebook or the report?

5 A. I didn't read the notebook. I read part of the report which he

6 prepared. And for me, that was most important. That was something that

7 drew my attention, that about the number of the victims.

8 Q. Did you read the report while he was writing it?

9 A. Yes, while he was writing it on the computer.

10 Q. Did that report contain more than one page?

11 A. Usually the reports, depending on the events of the day, contained

12 some pages but not very many, because they had to transmit it through

13 military communication lines because it was difficult to send them in

14 letter form.

15 Q. I asked you about this report. Did this report contain more than

16 one page?

17 A. As far as I remember, when he printed it, there was one and a half

18 page.

19 Q. Did you see or read the report while it was on the screen of the

20 computer or after it had been printed?

21 A. I read it while he was writing it. And then I was there, I saw

22 him print it and put it in an envelope.

23 Q. The answer is you read it while it was on the screen of the

24 computer?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4734

1 Q. Did you see the first page or did you see him writing the second

2 page?

3 A. I didn't understand your question.

4 Q. When it was on the screen and you had the opportunity to see it,

5 did you see more than one page or only one page?

6 A. I already said that the report consisted of one and a half page,

7 approximately.

8 Q. So --

9 A. And on the first page, I saw the figure 68, 74, somewhere in the

10 middle of the first page, as far as I remember.

11 Q. Did you see the top of that page?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And who were the addressees if there was more than one addressee?

14 A. The report was addressed to the corps, the Pristina Corps

15 command.

16 Q. Why do you say, then, that the report was sent to Belgrade? Is

17 that a guess? You assumed that would happen?

18 A. It was not my assumption, but this was the normal practice. A

19 lower command sent the report to a higher command. For us, it was the

20 Prishtina command. Then for that command, it was a 3rd Army command which

21 for its part, of course, would send it to the General Staff in Belgrade.

22 From there, it went to the corps command, that report, and then I don't

23 know what they did. But it was meant to be sent to the Supreme Command in

24 Belgrade, of course.

25 Q. Let's concentrate on this: You read that the addressee was the

Page 4735

1 corps command in Nis; is that right?

2 A. No.

3 Q. What did you read, then?

4 A. Not to the corps command in Nis; I said in Prishtina. It was

5 there. Not in Nis. In Nis, there was the command of the 3rd Army.

6 Q. Right. So you read in the top of the report that the addressee

7 was the corps command in Pristina, nothing else?

8 A. The heading of the report, or the addressee, was the corps command

9 in Prishtina.

10 Q. Nothing else?

11 A. But then this is how it happened. From there, it went on higher

12 and higher.

13 Q. How do you know that that happened with this report?

14 A. I don't know what happened, and I was not even interested in what

15 was going to happen with that report.

16 Q. Right. In your first statement of the 18th of April, you have

17 said that you saw in the computer at the cultural centre that 68 men were

18 killed in Meja, and that was, according to your statement, four days after

19 the incident. Now you say it was the next day. So what was it?

20 A. I don't remember to have said four days after the event. I

21 remember it was on the 27th, in the evening. It may be a mistake when

22 they have taken down, or I don't know, what I said. But it was on the

23 evening of the 27th of April, after 2200 hours, when the report was

24 written which mentioned the number of those victims.

25 Q. In your statement of April the 18th, under paragraph 31, you said,

Page 4736

1 and I will read it to you: "Four days later, the incident in Meja, I saw

2 in the computer we had at the cultural centre that 68 men were killed in

3 Meja," and so on.

4 In your last statement, you said it was the day after the

5 incident, on the 28th. Now you say it was on the evening of the incident,

6 on the 27th. So what is it?

7 A. Maybe the dates have got mixed up, but I am sure I can guarantee,

8 I can sit in full responsibility that it was the report that was written

9 in the late hours, after 2200 hours. And it was the 27th April 1999. I

10 cannot rule out some mistakes in the days but what I'm saying now is

11 absolutely true, because usually reports are not written fours days after,

12 they are written on a daily basis. Everybody knows that.

13 Q. Right.

14 MR. WLADIMIROFF: That's all I ask, Your Honours.

15 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honours, just two or three areas for

16 clarification, if I may.

17 Re-examined by Mr. Ryneveld:

18 MR. RYNEVELD: First of all, this area that my learned friend

19 Mr. Wladimiroff has been dealing with. In fairness, may I ask the Court

20 to turn with me to the second statement -- or the first statement, of the

21 18th of April, 2000, on page 7, paragraphs 30 and 31. In the fairness to

22 the witness, I believe we have to look at both of those paragraphs, just

23 the way that they have been written, and they both have to be read

24 together, I think, to put this in context.

25 Q. Witness, I'm going to read to you from your statement two

Page 4737

1 paragraphs on this very issue about the timing of your seeing this report

2 in the computer.

3 Paragraph 30, you were describing, you said: "I recall that three

4 or four days before the massacre in Meja, Nikola Micunovic, also known as

5 Dragan, told me that the valley of Carragojs was going to pay a very high

6 price." You then go on to describe the killing of Milutin Prascevic, and

7 you talked about some things. Then to paragraph 31, you say: "Four days

8 later, the incident in Meja." Now, are you talking about four days after

9 the discussion that you had with Dragan Micunovic? When you say, "Four

10 days after the incident in Meja, I saw in the computer we had at the

11 cultural centre that 68 men were killed in Meja and 74 men in Korenica."

12 When you put those two together, can you tell us whether or not you're

13 talking four days later, after you spoke to Micunovic, three or four days

14 before the massacre, or is it four days after the incident in Meja you're

15 talking about?

16 A. The truth is that what you mentioned; Nikola Micunovic said to me

17 that the valley of Carragojs will pay dearly for this. He said this to me

18 personally. And then I said to him, "What fault is it of the valley of

19 Carragojs?" And he said that Korenica too will pay dearly. And that's

20 what I mentioned.

21 Q. Yes. The focus of my question is not what was said, the focus of

22 the question is to clarify what you intended when you made this

23 statement. You recall that the conversation you have just related was

24 three or four days before the massacre. Let's stop there. Is that true?

25 Was this conversation with Micunovic three or four days before things

Page 4738

1 happened in the Carragojs valley?

2 A. Before the events.

3 Q. Yes. And then four days later, after this conversation, did you

4 look at the computer or did you look at the computer four days after the

5 incident happened as opposed to four days after the conversation

6 occurred?

7 A. I saw the computer on the day of the events, on the 27th, in the

8 evening.

9 Q. So that would be three or four days after the conversation then;

10 is that correct?

11 A. Of course, after the conversation that I'd had with Micunovic.

12 Q. All right. That was one topic. The second topic that I want to

13 clarify is the issue of the map. And just for the record, the map shown

14 to you on the ELMO, that Mr. -- that the accused showed you was Exhibit

15 143.3. That is -- I'm showing you now. That's the Meja map with the red

16 circle around it. That red circle is intended to show the area depicted

17 in 143.4; isn't that correct? That's the other map that you said was

18 accurately, computer-generated map of the circles you would drawn on

19 Exhibit 143.1. Is that correct, sir? This red circle is simply the

20 general area of the other map, 143.4, that you had outlined?

21 A. That's right.

22 Q. All right. And do I understand your evidence correctly that

23 you're saying that during the operation of Meja, you're restricting your

24 evidence to the two days, the 27th and 28th of April, and you said that

25 there were no casualties on those two dates. Is that what I understand

Page 4739

1 your evidence to be?

2 A. I said that there were no people killed or wounded on the side of

3 the KLA or on the side of the Serbian forces in this area I was talking

4 about.

5 Q. Yes. But you're saying that civilians died but no armed forces on

6 either side on those two days; is that correct? 27th and 28th of April.

7 A. That's right.

8 Q. Do I understand your evidence to be restricted to those two

9 dates? Because the names that Mr. Milosevic was reading out to you had

10 dates on the 11th and the 21st of April. Do you have any comment about

11 deaths that may have occurred on the 11th of April or the 21st of April or

12 dates outside of the 27th and the 28th of April?

13 A. There may have been killings, but I say again that the Carragojs

14 valley and Korenica, there were none. Maybe there were in other areas

15 around Koshare and the border strip, as far as Pashtrik. There may have

16 been.

17 Q. Thank you. Sir, in your statement, you referred to -- first of

18 all, you were cross-examined about the internal security operations. In

19 your evidence, I think you indicated - in your written evidence - that

20 General Perisic was opposed to the use of the army in internal security

21 operations, and you talked about that on Thursday. Do you remember

22 talking about that?

23 A. Yes. This is true. He said so, and I heard this with my own

24 ears, and I saw the general at this meeting where I was present too.

25 Q. Do you know what happened to General Perisic? Did he remain in

Page 4740

1 office?

2 A. No, he did not remain in office. I can't remember the exact date,

3 but about two months afterwards, General Perisic was dismissed by a decree

4 of the accused and, in his place, General Ojdanic was appointed. But I

5 know that there were also problems because the new general was appointed

6 without the approval of the Republic of Montenegro. I know that.

7 Q. One final area, one final question, if I may, Witness. You have

8 been cross-examined, both by the accused and by Mr. Wladimiroff, about

9 things that you saw or heard during either meetings or -- formal meetings

10 or informal meetings or documents lying around. You've told us about

11 those things, haven't you?

12 A. I didn't understand the question very well.

13 Q. That's my fault. I obviously asked it poorly. Let me try again.

14 During cross-examination, questions were put to you about your

15 particular function and why it is that you would have access to

16 information that came out of formal meetings. Let's stop there. Do you

17 remember being cross-examined about your ability to know what happened at

18 these meetings?

19 A. I was in positions to see almost everything, but not secret

20 things, but other things more or less completely; the amount of forces,

21 the amount of weaponry, vehicles, other things of this kind. Yes, I was

22 in these places. And while I was working in communications and also when

23 I was an administrative officer for educational matters in the staff, I

24 saw notes of many different kinds.

25 Q. Did you sometimes have access to copies of orders or plans or

Page 4741

1 telegrams or other communications that were lying around?

2 A. There were these things, and I often saw maps that were drawn and

3 plans that had been drawn up with notes on them with different kinds of

4 headlines and which these things were to be enforced stage by stage. And

5 these were maps with figures on and plans that had been prepared. And

6 when the time came, these plans were to be put in action and form a basis

7 of duties.

8 Q. Here's my question following up on that, sir: Under

9 cross-examination by the accused, he questioned how you could know that

10 the operations in Djakovica were intended to cleanse the Albanian

11 population. Did you ever see any documents, plans, telegrams, or other

12 communications that supported your position?

13 A. The orders that came were, of course, simplified by superior

14 officers. And I myself have seen in Gjakove how commanders in the field

15 were issued with orders -- with an order that had come as a telegram,

16 stating that cleansing of the population must take place and cleansing of

17 all those who were not loyal to the state.

18 Q. Who did that telegram come from?

19 A. I do not know who it came from, but I suppose that it came from

20 the superior command. It was then copied and sent to commanders in the

21 field.

22 Q. Do you recall to whom it was addressed?

23 A. It was sent to all the units of the military units and no doubt

24 the police units too. I'm not sure, but I know it was sent to the

25 commanders of the units where I was working and other units that had come

Page 4742

1 to help them. And all these were given a document of this kind.

2 Q. My final question: When and where did you see that document?

3 A. I saw it in March 1999.

4 Q. I'm sorry, and the second half of that was where? Exactly where

5 was it? What building, what office, where?

6 A. In the building -- in fact, it wasn't in the building of the

7 palace of culture but in the house -- in the basement of the department

8 store where the command was established.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 Questioned by the Court:

11 JUDGE KWON: Did you --

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Was it -- was it just the one telegram you saw

13 with that kind of communication or more than one?

14 A. Telegrams that came were then written in the form of an order or

15 an announcement and were sent to other units in the field.

16 JUDGE KWON: Did you mention the telegram just you've mentioned in

17 the earlier statement or not, stating about the ethnic cleansing? I don't

18 remember. I read the -- read about the telegram, about mentioning the

19 ethnic cleansing in the statement. Why is that? You just -- you didn't

20 remember that?

21 A. I mentioned during the session that I couldn't call to mind

22 everything at the moment, and this is very true. But I didn't see a

23 telegram exclusively about ethnic cleansing but other things were

24 mentioned. And what it said was that the terrain should be cleansed of

25 all people who are not loyal to the state of Serbia. That's how I

Page 4743

1 understood it and that's how it was mentioned, cleansing. So that it

2 wasn't the Serbs who were going to be cleansed from this area, it was

3 well-known who was going to be cleansed.

4 JUDGE KWON: Did that mean to cleanse the KLA?

5 A. I said, when we're talking about the Carragojs valley, in those

6 days, there was no KLA there. It was the population that was cleansed,

7 because there were a lot of people who had taken refuge there. These were

8 people from other villages, from Decan, Junik, Smolica, Borovina, other

9 villages.

10 JUDGE KWON: Well, let's go back a minute to the other report

11 which you said had been prepared by Major Vinter after the Meja operation.

12 You said that the report was sent to the corps command in Pristina. Is

13 that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 JUDGE KWON: And the report was saying that 74 terrorists had been

16 killed in Korenica and 68 in Meja.

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE KWON: And did the terrorists referred to in the report mean

19 the members of the KLA?

20 A. There were no -- it had nothing to do with the KLA. These were

21 purely civilians. All of them were unarmed, defenseless civilians without

22 uniforms.

23 JUDGE KWON: But according to the report, it says "terrorists" who

24 were killed during the operation.

25 A. They wrote that -- they wrote this as a pretext, because they knew

Page 4744

1 very well that there were no terrorists in the area. But they called all

2 the Albanian population terrorists. I saw these bodies myself. Not one

3 of them was military.

4 JUDGE KWON: Yes. You mean by "they," the Serb forces in the Meja

5 operations area, they wrote to the corps command that 74 or 60 some, some

6 140 terrorists were killed during the operation. Then may I take it that

7 the commander in Pristina had no idea that civilians had been killed

8 during the operation, or if you think that the commander must have known

9 exactly what was happening at the time, what would be your base of

10 thinking?

11 A. They knew that the operation was taking place, but they didn't

12 know the details. They took the details from the people who were in the

13 field. And in the evening and when the briefing was held, members of the

14 police, the MUP, and other army units came and reported. And from this

15 report, notes were compiled about what had happened on that day and were

16 sent higher up.

17 JUDGE KWON: I'm asking about the commander in Pristina who

18 receives the report from the field. Did he know what was happening

19 exactly? Did he know that civilians instead of KLAs were killed? And

20 what is your base of thinking if you say they already know?

21 A. He knew very well who was killed, and he knew perfectly well. But

22 he was unable to express himself differently or call these innocent people

23 anything but terrorists. He got the news through radio communications,

24 but these reports were written in this way.

25 JUDGE KWON: How did he come to know? My question was simply

Page 4745

1 that.

2 A. It's not clear to me who. The commander or who else?

3 JUDGE KWON: The commander in Pristina, sitting in Pristina.

4 A. He learnt, first of all, from persons who were authorised to give

5 him direct information by writing, in two ways. And in fact, he was also

6 in direct contact with his personnel where he was.

7 JUDGE KWON: Okay. Thank you.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [No translation]

9 JUDGE MAY: Put your microphone on and we'll hear it.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I can't turn it on because you

11 keep turning it on and off, as you know full well.

12 Can I ask something in relation to Judge Kwon's question, please?

13 JUDGE MAY: Put the microphone, on.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The light of the microphone is on,

15 as you can see.

16 JUDGE MAY: Right. What's your question?

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can you hear me now?

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In relation to this report by

20 Mr. Kwon, if the witness read that 74 terrorists in Korenica and 68 in

21 Meja and he believes that they were civilians, wasn't his duty then, as an

22 officer, as an army officer, to say these are not terrorists, these are

23 civilians? I'm putting this question because --

24 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We hear the question. It's a comment you

25 can make. It's a comment you can make in due course. But we really must

Page 4746

1 conclude the witness's evidence.

2 Mr. Ryneveld, what is the point?

3 MR. RYNEVELD: Just an issue -- sorry. Just an issue of fairness.

4 The response to my very last question was not contained in either

5 of his previous statements. The information came during a proofing

6 session, but there was no opportunity because the matter had not been 92

7 bis'd. In fairness to -- I hadn't expected the subject matter to be

8 expanded this fully. The purpose of the question was to show that he was

9 in a position to obtain information such as documents, telegrams, even

10 though he was a low-level or different --

11 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Mr. Ryneveld, I think we stopped the

12 accused making comments, so we must ask you too.

13 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. There is a point, though; that if there is

14 some unfairness because I put this evidence in after the fact and no one

15 has had an opportunity to cross-examine on it, I wanted the Court to be

16 aware that this came up in re-examination but it was never disclosed.

17 That's my point.

18 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

19 MR. RYNEVELD: I want to be perfectly clear.

20 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Mr. Peraj, that concludes your evidence.

21 Thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are

22 now free to go.

23 The Court will adjourn for 20 minutes.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

25 --- Recess taken at 10.40 a.m.

Page 4747

1 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

2 [The witness entered court]


4 JUDGE MAY: General Drewienkiewicz, thank you for coming back to

5 the Tribunal to conclude your evidence. You are, of course, subject to

6 the declaration which you made on the last occasion.

7 Mr. Milosevic, you have, as we ordered, two hours more for

8 cross-examination of this witness.

9 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]

10 Q. Let us start from the oath that you made here to speak the truth,

11 the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Since we're still discussing

12 Racak, my question is the following: Why did you omit in your statement

13 that the police operation in Racak had been announced to you?

14 A. I don't believe it had been announced specifically. We had had

15 many announcements that things would happen in response to other

16 activities, other events. At no stage were we formally warned or was it

17 indicated that there would be an operation specifically against Racak at a

18 certain time. If that had been the case, I would have made sure that

19 there were my people on the ground to ensure that things did not go out of

20 hand.

21 Q. Yes. But you did have observers on the spot, didn't you? Yes or

22 no.

23 A. There were a very few. They were not on the spot, they were in

24 the area. They were within five miles, say.

25 Q. All right. We're going to get to that very soon. But during the

Page 4748

1 first part of your cross-examination, you confirmed, in relation to my

2 question, about the presence of Maisonneuve, that is, that your people

3 entered Racak the first day after what had happened; is that right? Yes

4 or no.

5 A. Yes, that is correct.

6 Q. Then answer me the following question: Why did you omit the fact

7 that you certainly had to be aware of and that is that Associated Press

8 cameras were there, et cetera, and some journalists, that they were

9 present there during the operation?

10 A. I only became aware of that after the event.

11 Q. Even if you became aware of it after the event, you had to bear

12 that in mind, I assume, when giving your statements in relation to the

13 event in Racak. Is that right or is that not right?

14 A. In giving my statement, I have attempted at all stages to say what

15 I knew at the time and not use hindsight.

16 Q. Yes. But you found out early enough, as far as I understood

17 things. Even before the sensational statement about a massacre. Is that

18 right or is that not right?

19 A. I was aware in the course of Saturday morning that there were some

20 media there. I had no idea which media were there; they didn't report to

21 me. I used the reports from my own people as being more objective at the

22 time.

23 Q. And didn't it occur to you to try to get the recorded material

24 that the media had from them themselves so that the situation would become

25 clearer to you?

Page 4749

1 A. Not at the time, no. They don't work for us. Their motives were

2 not our motives.

3 Q. Well, I assume that everybody's motive was to record the event and

4 to establish the truth. Do you think that's the way it is or do you not

5 think so?

6 A. I was responsible for the observers on the ground, not for the

7 media. I had no control over what the media did, where they went, or what

8 they said. What they said was not always what I believed.

9 Q. Is it correct that Walker came only subsequently, after all of 16

10 hours from the time when your observers and the police left Racak, that he

11 came to a stage-managed scene with the KLA? Is that right or is that not

12 right?

13 A. It is true that Walker went to Racak on the Saturday morning and

14 that my verifiers had left there in the dark on Friday evening. The

15 reason he did not go any earlier and that I did not go any earlier was

16 that we did not have a clear view of what had happened. We did not

17 realise exactly how bad things were there. It was only in the course of

18 Saturday morning that we got reports which appeared to indicate that the

19 situation there was far worse than had been reported on Friday evening.

20 Q. And why, then, in the report of the 16th, that is to say Saturday,

21 in the report that you sent, why is Racak not considered to be significant

22 when the verifiers entered it on the 15th in the afternoon?

23 A. Because the reports that they received on the afternoon of the

24 15th indicated that there had been shelling, that people had been injured

25 and wounded, that men had been taken -- that men were missing and nobody

Page 4750

1 knew what had happened to them. But those were the facts that had been

2 established that night. It was very confusing. And at the time, the

3 people on the ground, my people on the ground, were told that the main

4 priority for them was to help get wounded people to hospital, and that was

5 what they did and that was what they reported.

6 Q. During your first examination, and you confirmed yet again today

7 that you said that your observers were not there, and today you said in

8 very precise terms that they were five miles away, that is to say, about

9 eight kilometres away from Racak when all of this was taking place; is

10 that right?

11 A. At the beginning of the Friday when the operation started, there

12 were verifiers in the geographic area - that is, within five miles - who

13 went there, went to the Racak area because of the firing they heard and

14 the activity they saw. As a result of their reports which got to me

15 around about lunchtime, just after lunch up at Pec, I ordered Maisonneuve

16 to go there and to find out precisely what was happening because the

17 reports were very confusing at that stage, and I wanted someone on the

18 ground who had the experience and wisdom of Maisonneuve, and not all of

19 the verifiers had his experience and wisdom.

20 Q. All right. Then allow me to show you a brief video clip, 34

21 seconds only.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the technical people please

23 play it for us now.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. This is the moment when the forces enter Racak. This was filmed

Page 4751

1 by the journalists from Associated Press and other journalists. So we're

2 going to see what is on this footage. So could you please just show the

3 first clipping.

4 [Videotape played]

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The sound too, please.

6 [Videotape played]

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Pay attention to this now. The police is entering Racak. Look up

9 here, these orange vehicles and your observers. They were present from

10 the very outset, from the very beginning of the police operation.

11 So now I'm asking you the following --

12 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Just a moment. That's what you say.

13 It could show anything.

14 General, could you assist us to where and when that might be?

15 THE WITNESS: I don't know when the precise time was, but I

16 believe that in the course of the preliminary operation, when there was

17 firing into the village, not any of my people were present. They were

18 attracted by the sound of the gunfire, and, therefore, they came to the

19 village. And as that clip appears to show, they were behind the village,

20 on the high ground, observing, when the police actually went in. I

21 believe that that was in the course of the afternoon, probably about 3.00

22 in the afternoon if I have to put a speculative time on it. But I don't

23 know precisely where or what the origin of that clip is, no.

24 JUDGE MAY: Would Maisonneuve be a witness as to that?

25 THE WITNESS: No, I don't think he would. He arrived as it was

Page 4752

1 getting dark, and that clip appears to show that it was daylight. And it

2 got dark quite early. So I would say that's about 3.00 in the afternoon

3 at the latest. It might be a bit earlier.


5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. You say that your people were not there during the preliminary

7 operation, but they were there when the police entered the village. And

8 the entire testimony in relation to Racak was that it was the police who

9 committed a massacre when they entered the village. So, then, it means

10 that the police committed the massacre in the presence of your observers.

11 A. I think we did have people within several kilometres. The

12 distance from that village up to that ridge is at least a kilometre, and

13 because of the firing that had been going on, that was as close as the

14 people up on the ridge were prepared to go in soft-skinned vehicles when

15 there appeared to be very little fire discipline. In other words, that if

16 they attempted to go into the village, they were as likely to get shot as

17 not. What they saw from the ridge, they reported. They did not see

18 people being killed. If they had done, they would have reported it.

19 I think I would add that because this is very hilly countryside,

20 it is very difficult to see precisely what is going on behind every fold

21 of ground. That was why, in the absence of being able to go forward, the

22 best thing to do was to get onto the highest piece of ground you could and

23 see what you could from that ground. I've been on those ridges myself,

24 and I know there's a lot of dead ground from those ridges. You certainly

25 can't say all the way up onto -- onto the ridges behind the village, which

Page 4753

1 is where the killings took place.

2 Q. Yes. But you saw that they were being filmed from the village.

3 Just like the camera sees them from the village, they, from their

4 position, see the village and what is happening in the village. Is that

5 right or is that not right?

6 A. They would have seen into the village, but they would not have

7 seen things in the detail that that film showed because they were some way

8 away. And with the buildings in the villages, you would not get that

9 clear view of the soldier, the armoured personnel carrier walking down the

10 main street of the village in the way that that was shown.

11 Q. Well -- but you did see them there, that they were watching from

12 up there. So do you believe your colleague from the OSCE now, the one I

13 quoted to you during the first part of the cross-examination, that the

14 OSCE had not only been informed but had actually been present throughout

15 the action?

16 A. No, I don't think they were specifically informed. Because if

17 they had been specifically informed that there was going to be a major

18 police operation at a specific time, at a specific date, then we would

19 have made sure people were there to watch it. We hardly ever -- in fact,

20 I cannot remember ever getting advance notice of a specific planned

21 operation in advance of the operation. At no stage in my entire time

22 there did I ever receive advance notice that there was going to be a

23 specific police operation or army operation in a specific location at a

24 specific time. To say, "There have been terrorist attacks and we will do

25 something about it" is not advance notice of that sort.

Page 4754

1 Q. All right. But regardless of this explanation, I imagine that you

2 are not questioning the fact that they were present and that journalists

3 were present, as a matter of fact, during the police operation.

4 A. There were clearly OSCE people up on the ridge, and it was those

5 people whose report came to me, saying that there was a major operation

6 going on in this area, which caused me to send Maisonneuve down there so

7 that he could bring his experienced eye to bear on it.

8 Q. All right. That means that from the beginning of the operation

9 they were there, but they were not experienced enough, but then

10 Maisonneuve came because --

11 JUDGE MAY: No. That is not what the witness said. But let's

12 move on. We've exhausted this.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. In your statement, you said that you did not see any evidence of

15 any kind of fighting there. As a matter of fact, you made the assertion

16 that the KLA had left the area, that is to say that there had not been any

17 fighting. That is what you claimed.

18 A. That is my impression, yes, and I can certainly confirm that the

19 area that I walked over, which was the trench system behind the village,

20 had not been fought over.

21 Q. All right. Allow me to remind you yet again, in view of the

22 position and in view of what you had heard and in view of what you had

23 seen from your Verification Mission, and it seems to me that you had to

24 know this.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could you please play the second

Page 4755

1 video clip. Could we please hear the soundtrack as well.

2 [Videotape played]

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. So this relates to what you said, that there had been no fighting

5 and that you had not seen anything on the basis of which one could

6 conclude that there had been fighting in Racak. I'm not going to play the

7 entire film. I'm keeping it for yet another witness.

8 My question is the following: Is it truly possible that you did

9 not know a thing about this? You have two vehicles that are following the

10 action, there are a few foreign TV crews and groups of journalists there

11 and you did not know a thing about this; is that really possible?

12 A. I was up at Pec. I was not in Pristina where the communications

13 normally went back to. And the report came to me via Pristina, so it took

14 a bit longer. There had been instances when the first report was not

15 exactly what really happened, which was why I wanted someone with a lot of

16 experience to go there and find out what really was happening. I

17 certainly didn't have the benefit of any film at the time.

18 I would add that the film clip that I've just seen shows that

19 there were -- and I heard the fighting -- the firing, shows that heavy

20 weapons were being used, which were only owned by your forces, to support

21 the entry into the village. There was then small-arms fire, which could

22 have come from anybody, but in my experience, your police tended to fire

23 at areas that might contain something they were worried about. They

24 certainly didn't wait until they saw a target before they opened fire.

25 So everything I've seen on that film clip shows that your police

Page 4756

1 went into the village supported by heavy fire, probably firing at anything

2 that moved or look suspicious. I didn't see any evidence on there of

3 fighting coming back -- firing coming back in the opposite direction.

4 So it is possible that the KLA were there at the start of the

5 operation. It's also quite possible that they ran away quite quickly, as

6 they often did, and that your people went into a village from which the

7 KLA had left.

8 Q. And that they fired regardless of the fact that there were no KLA

9 people there.

10 A. Yes. That often happened.

11 Q. All right. Now, does it seem to be logical to you, General, that

12 the police should call the journalists, the cameramen, inform the OSCE and

13 observers and monitors to attend and follow some sort of massacre?

14 A. No.

15 Q. And you informed the whole of the world public that this was

16 indeed a massacre and that civilians had been killed. This triggered off

17 a reaction on the part of many statesmen.

18 Now, you made your assessment although you had not completed an

19 investigation or conducted post-mortems and things of that kind; is that

20 right?

21 A. Yes. We had not conducted post-mortems. The judgement was made

22 on the basis of the facts as they were seen at the time.

23 Q. Why were you so quick then? Why were you in a hurry?

24 A. I don't think we were in a hurry.

25 Q. Racak was a pretext for the bombing; is that correct?

Page 4757

1 JUDGE MAY: No. That's not a proper question. You can ask the

2 witness about what he saw or heard.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Well, all right, then. Did you hear or see that Walker, on the

5 10th of April, 2000, in Bonn, made the statement to the effect that the

6 episode in Racak was decisive for the bombing; and do you agree with that?

7 JUDGE MAY: That's not a matter for the witness.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Well, then, answer me this: Why did you not -- or, for example,

10 perhaps you didn't want to look at some facts. And during your stay in

11 Kosovo, were you aware of the facts and figures by the committee that

12 conducted the post-mortems? I'm going to read out just some of the

13 points. And the document is one which was disclosed by the Prosecutor,

14 which includes part of that report. It is the Association of Physicians

15 that I'm going to quote, from KO212750. That is the number of the

16 document. It is page 73, and just the conclusion made by the professors

17 who conducted the post-mortems and provided evidence.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just ask Mr. May something?

19 Could you clarify for me, please, whether the time, if I am presenting

20 documents, be deducted from my overall cross-examination time or not?

21 Your answer is very important to me.

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It will be added?

24 JUDGE MAY: No. It will be part of the whole.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So it can only be within the space

Page 4758

1 of two hours, is that it, altogether?


3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation].

4 Q. All right. Then I won't place the documents on the ELMO, on the

5 overhead projector - it takes too much time - but I shall be giving them

6 to you. They are the documents that I received with the numbers I

7 received. And it says: "With all 40 post-mortems that were carried out

8 there was not a single detail in which the opinions of all experts present

9 were not of accord."

10 Then it says: "The presence of nitrate was found in 37 of the 40

11 bodies that were examined in the post-mortem. Throughout our work in the

12 post-mortem halls, we had the presence of other people, the second

13 secretary of the Finnish embassy in Yugoslavia, although he is not an

14 expert, as well as two representatives of the OSCE and others. On no

15 bodies did we find any intravital or post-mortem effects of blunt or sharp

16 mechanical weapons or any blunt weapons. After every post-mortem, the

17 findings and report were coordinated with those of the experts from

18 Belorussia and 24 of them with the Finnish experts. That is because they

19 turned up later on. During the overall procedure and the conducting of

20 each post-mortem, a tape was made with the soundtrack as well and two or

21 three cameras were used. The criminal investigation association and the

22 Finnish team of experts all took part." All this is contained in this

23 document and may I -- it please be introduced into evidence. And as I

24 say, the number I read out was the number on the document in the upper

25 right-hand corner.

Page 4759

1 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, have you got a copy of it?

2 MR. NICE: No. I haven't yet managed to track down which

3 particular document it is. It looks as though it may have come from the

4 Racak binder, which will be helpful and interesting because of course the

5 whole Racak binder will become an exhibit of the Prosecution's.


7 MR. NICE: If the accuse would like to tell us where it comes

8 from, it would make life a bit easier.


10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Here it is. It has your number

11 here. K0212750. That is the number. 47 from the beginning, 12747 from

12 the beginning.

13 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't want to waste any time.

15 JUDGE MAY: That will be found.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Now, did you know about all this, what I've just read out and

18 quoted from that document?

19 A. Not at the time, no.

20 Q. All right. And at the time, did you have the official report by

21 the investigating Judge under the number that it has - I don't want to

22 waste time reading it out - in which it was noted not only the number of

23 weapons that were found on the 15th of January but your threats and

24 demands that procedure be undertaken against the law of criminal

25 proceedings? Are you aware of that note, that report?

Page 4760

1 A. I'm not sure which document you're referring to. There are quite

2 a lot that we've dealt with.

3 Q. It is the official note which speaks about the report made by the

4 investigating Judge, and it is 14/99, the number. And that is where you

5 will find the quotation I read out. I don't want to put it up on the

6 overhead projector, but I consider that it should be admitted into

7 evidence as well, as an exhibit.

8 And now my next question: At the time, you were informed of the

9 minutes on the investigation, on-site investigation, because it was done

10 in the presence of the OSCE, two Americans Gil Giverson [phoen] and L.

11 Sullivan, as well as an Italian who was there by the name of Giovanni

12 Fantini [phoen]. Then there was a forensic expert, Professor

13 Dobricanin [phoen], and an interpreter Atah Damaj [phoen]. And nobody had

14 any objections to make with respect to the investigation and on-site

15 investigation conducted, and the public Prosecutor was there, Ismet Suftu

16 [phoen], who was an Albanian himself. Do you know about that?

17 A. I don't know when the incident is that you're referring to.

18 Q. No. I'm talking about the minutes on the -- about the on-site

19 investigation. The minutes about the investigation conducted on the spot.

20 And it was done in the presence of these individuals whom I mentioned.

21 And it is -- the minutes were compiled on the 18th of January, 1999, and

22 it says the place of the event was attended by two Americans, Gil Giverson

23 and L. Sullivan --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please be asked to read more

25 slowly.

Page 4761

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. -- as well as an Italian, Giovanni Fantini.

3 JUDGE MAY: You're asked to read more slowly, but you've read this

4 already.

5 General, can you help us to this? Do you know anything about the

6 minutes of the on-site investigation?

7 THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of them specifically. They were

8 certainly never brought to my attention by General Loncar, who was the

9 normal means whereby information from the -- from the FRY side would be

10 handed to us. So, no, I'm not aware of this document.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Yes. But if your representatives were present, that is to say

13 these two Americans and one Italian, then I suppose it is their duty to

14 inform you of the minutes that were compiled at an investigation which

15 they attended. So your employees attended, so you must have known. And

16 it says, among other things here, that they were there.

17 JUDGE MAY: The witness says he didn't know.

18 Is that right, General?

19 THE WITNESS: There were many meetings at which people from the

20 OSCE were present at which the FRY authorities present took minutes. At

21 no stage am I aware of those minutes being made available to us at the

22 time, ever.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. So in these minutes with your three people plus an interpreter,

25 also one of yours, says --

Page 4762

1 JUDGE MAY: The witness cannot assist as to the minutes. He knows

2 nothing about them.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Is it clear, then, that the investigation on the spot was attended

6 by three representatives of the OSCE plus a fourth person who was an

7 interpreter, who was a technical person, but three representatives,

8 basically, the ones enumerated here?

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And I would like to tender this into

10 evidence as well, as an exhibit.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Just a moment. No doubt that will be part of

12 the binder.

13 MR. NICE: I'm not sure about the second document. The first

14 document we have tracked down. It was provided separately and is, I

15 think, not part of the binder. So we're sending for documents of that and

16 we'll have them brought down. And if the Chamber so decides, they will be

17 produced as an exhibit. The second one we'll have to track down in the

18 same way. It takes a minute or so because all it has is a number or some

19 other --

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, then. Do I need to get

21 permission from the other side to tender documents into evidence?

22 JUDGE MAY: No. It's more convenient if they can produce copies.

23 But you can put this document in since it can't be traced. If you want to

24 hand it in.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Here it is. I am handing them in,

Page 4763

1 all three of them, all three documents.

2 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Perhaps you can give them numbers.

3 Just a moment while they're exhibited.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document which is numbered

5 K0212747 will be Defence Exhibit Number 2. And the second document, which

6 appears to be KPN.6P.14/99, that will be Defence Exhibit 3 ter, and the

7 third document will be -- appears to be the same document. So there's

8 only two.

9 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I handed over three documents.

11 THE REGISTRAR: The third document will be Defence Exhibit number

12 4.

13 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Yes.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Now, could you give me a precise yes or no answer: Did you know

16 anything about the contents in these documents, regardless of the fact

17 that you say that the documents are unknown to you as such? But what

18 about the contents, the contents that I quoted? Was that something that

19 you were aware of or not?

20 A. No, not as you stated.

21 Q. And did you know at the time about the final report by the

22 Prosecution, which is by law the institution that says whether grounds

23 exist for filing a criminal suit or not?

24 A. No, because we were not there to enforce FRY law.

25 Q. Well, I assume that the mission was duty-bound to cooperate with

Page 4764

1 the organs of power and authority on whose territory it was and to inform

2 -- be informed and inform about procedures of any kind, particularly if

3 they were criminal proceedings. Is that right or not?

4 A. That is precisely what we did at Racak, and we asked for the

5 people involved to be investigated fully, and that never happened.

6 Q. All right. I'm going to remind you here that the Prosecution, who

7 is the sole organ, according to Yugoslav law, that is competent to do so,

8 "undertake all steps to refute an armed attack launched by the terrorist

9 organisation called the KLA and in conformity with the law on internal

10 affairs."

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So may I tender this document into

12 exhibit as well -- into evidence as well?

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. All right. As these facts are not something that was of interest

15 to you, in your report of the 15th of January, you report that in Racak,

16 by the verifiers, it was ascertained that one Albanian was killed and that

17 five others were wounded. All this changed in the space of one day,

18 without an investigation, without an expert finding, and everything was

19 ignored. How do you explain that?

20 A. What we reported on the Friday night was what we had seen. What

21 we reported on Saturday was what we had seen. In between Friday night and

22 Saturday night, we saw a lot more. We counted a lot more dead bodies, and

23 we made our own conclusions how they had died. We also invited your

24 representative, General Loncar, to come with us, and he could have been

25 there on Saturday and he could have seen it at the same time as we did.

Page 4765

1 He declined.

2 Q. All right. Don't you know that the fighting with the KLA took

3 place in three villages in the vicinity on that same day?

4 A. I know that your forces fired into several villages in that

5 vicinity, not just Racak. All the way down the valley, the villages were

6 fired into, yes. At no stage did I see any evidence of casualties to the

7 KLA, nor was I ever shown weapons or uniforms which may have been worn or

8 used by these KLA. It is my belief that they ran away very early on in

9 the action.

10 Q. And did you know that Racak was a stronghold of the KLA, in fact?

11 A. No, I certainly didn't.

12 Q. And do you know, for example, that Hashim Thaci, for a BBC

13 interview confirmed that Racak was the KLA stronghold and that there was

14 serious fighting going on there? Do you know about that?

15 A. I would be very interested to know when he said that and to whom

16 and in what circumstances. It sounds like being wise after the event to

17 me.

18 Q. No I'm talking about his subsequent interview to the BBC. And

19 that is easy to find, it's all public evidence so it can be ascertained.

20 But do you know about it? If you don't, just say no.

21 A. No, I don't.

22 Q. And what about Maisonneuve when he returned from Racak on the

23 first day? Did he tell you that in the Racak, from the launching of the

24 operations, the KVM foreign reporters and journalists were present? Did

25 he happen to mention that to you?

Page 4766

1 A. Of course he knew and I knew, and the reports of the people who

2 were there before him were included in the reports that came to us that

3 night, but they were only able to tell us what they could see from the

4 hillside.

5 Q. Yes. But you said yourself during the first examination here that

6 your forces went into Racak that day and they didn't stay up on the ridge.

7 Are you changing your testimony now or not?

8 A. No. I'm telling you different things that happened at different

9 times. First there were people on the ridge who had arrived after the

10 operation had started and who observed the firing into the village and

11 reported that back to us. Maisonneuve arrived and conferred with them and

12 then he and others went into the village after the firing had stopped at

13 the end of the day after your police were leaving the village. At that

14 point, they talked to the villagers, were told that there were wounded

15 people, one person was dead, and that those were the main things they were

16 concerned about at that moment. That was their main priority, to get the

17 wounded to medical care. That was what they did.

18 At that stage, no one was aware that the people up on the hill had

19 been killed. And I would repeat again: By this stage, it was getting

20 dark.

21 Q. All right. You probably knew about the fact that the bodies that

22 you describe had on them several layers of clothing, boots and other clear

23 indices characteristic of people spending a lot of time outside, say, for

24 example, in trenches or the like. Do you remember that, those details?

25 A. I remember that several of the dead were wearing wellington boots

Page 4767

1 which are not useful in cold country, so I would say that they were not

2 all -- they were not dressed for fighting in the open and living in the

3 open; they were dressed for working outside as farmers.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Since we don't have a lot of time,

5 it's running out very fast, I ask that the testimony which the other side

6 gave here of Dr. Dusan Dunjic, who describes the state of affairs in which

7 the bodies were found, to be tendered into evidence. So it is a

8 statement, a Prosecution statement, and refers to Dr. Dusan Dunjic. I

9 haven't got the number here, haven't jotted down the number, but I think

10 the name will be sufficient for you to pinpoint the document and I ask

11 that it be tendered into evidence.

12 JUDGE MAY: We'll consider that in due course.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. And do you know that for at least 13 out of the 45 persons who are

15 listed as killed, there are no tombstones, graves at the cemetery in Racak

16 called the Martyrs' Cemetery?

17 A. No. But I know that when we counted up the number of dead that

18 had been found in the different locations, it came to either 45 or 46 at

19 the time.

20 Q. And at the time, during your stay there, do you know that bullets

21 were found which had been shot from different positions, typical of armed

22 combat, in the bodies?

23 A. I know that the bullets were found in the bodies, and I know what

24 the state of the bodies was when I saw them.

25 Q. However -- now, do you know - and could this have led you to make

Page 4768

1 different assessments - what the foreign press wrote about and reported?

2 I quoted the Berliner Zeitung and Konkret [phoen] and so on and so forth.

3 I quoted those to you. Now I'm going to quote something else, a portion

4 from Elzecer [phoen] book Racak and Mrs. Ranta. It says only the Berliner

5 Zeitung, in the German papers, dealt with this issue. On the 13th of

6 March, 1999, it was published. "High representatives of OSCE were told

7 that 45 Albanians were uncovered in mid-January in the village of Racak

8 and that they were not the victims of Serb massacres over civilians. It

9 says internally in the OSCE that this was rigged by the Albanian side and

10 that the results were achieved from the centre of the Kosovska Mission,

11 that is to say, independently of the expertise" --

12 JUDGE MAY: I'm going to stop this. Who is this author you're

13 quoting, Mr. Milosevic?

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Elzecer, and the book is "Racak and

15 the vagaries of Mrs. Ranta." And --

16 JUDGE MAY: No doubt you can call the witness -- the author to

17 give evidence if you want, but it's pointless putting it to this witness.

18 It's simply his or her opinions.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. And do you know that a statement published on the 17th of March

21 was composed of only five pages and the overall report, according to the

22 Berliner Zeitung was 21 kilogrammes in weight?

23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please speak -- read more

24 slowly.

25 THE WITNESS: On the 17th of March, I was getting -- making --

Page 4769

1 THE INTERPRETER: Oskar Fischer [phoen] was the presiding officer

2 of the European organisation at that time.

3 THE WITNESS: Okay. On the 17th of March, I was checking the

4 evacuation plans so that we could get everybody out on the 20th if we were

5 ordered to. That was my top priority at that moment. I'm afraid that I

6 was no longer worrying about Racak at that moment.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. All right, then. But do you know that it was noted that the

9 victims were not massacred with their heads cut off and only one case were

10 there traces of a blunt object? In two cases, the heads were

11 post-mortemly cut off. Do you -- by animals, eaten away by animals. Are

12 you aware of that?

13 A. I was aware that one of the corpses down in the village had been

14 decapitated. Yes. That is what we saw on the Saturday afternoon. Beyond

15 that, the corpses on the hill, which were the group of, I think, about 23,

16 were the ones which had been shot and had all fallen down all over one

17 another. That was what we saw, that was what we reported.

18 Q. And do you know of this assertion by experts who say that if

19 killings are undertaken -- executions are undertaken under command, then

20 the -- the --

21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please be asked to read more

22 solely. It is impossible to translate at this speed.

23 JUDGE MAY: You are asked to slow down. And in any event, who are

24 you quoting now, Mr. Milosevic?

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm quoting a report by the

Page 4770












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13 pagination anglaise et la pagination française. Pages 4770 to 4777.













Page 4778

1 forensics -- forensic experts. And in the addendum, it says: "The

2 contradictions between the information received and the results of

3 forensic autopsy can be discarded only if we confirm or refute the cause

4 of death." This refers to the first reports by Walker, who stated that it

5 was the Serbs who had committed the massacre.

6 JUDGE MAY: It's not -- it's not a matter for the witness. This

7 is something we are going to have to determine.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. So you're not going to

9 accept this, then, as an exhibit.


11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Now, do you allow for the possibility that the bodies had been

13 brought in, transported from somewhere else, et cetera? Do you allow for

14 that possibility?

15 A. No. That was not the impression I gained at the time up on the

16 hill. The bodies were too intermingled and jumbled over one another for

17 that to be a possibility, in my view and in the view of those who were

18 there with me.

19 Q. And do you know about what the Times said on the 20th of January,

20 1999? And he says precisely that the bodies had been brought in, on the

21 basis of what the French journalist said. They come to that conclusion.

22 JUDGE MAY: This is the opinion of a journalist. It's of no use

23 to us now. We're dealing with evidence. The witness has given his answer

24 to the question which you put.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 4779

1 Q. All right. Let's skip the journalist then. But I cannot skip

2 over Helena Ranta, who speaks differently from you in relation to the

3 possibility of having manipulated the bodies. Here's an opportunity to

4 jog your memory.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the next video clip please be

6 shown, and I kindly ask the interpreters to interpret.

7 [Videotape played]

8 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "There was doubt here as to whether

9 there was really a massacre in Racak. It pointed out something else and

10 this is the first time she speaks of it for television spectators.

11 "I am aware of the fact that this entire scene had been rigged,

12 because that is indeed possible to do. That is what our first findings

13 had indicated. Also, later forensic examinations that we carried out on

14 the scene in 1999 show that, and we gave the results directly to the

15 International Tribunal in The Hague.

16 "Ambassador Walker came to Racak on Saturday, and that was his very

17 own decision, to qualify the event as a massacre. I have systematically

18 avoided the use of that term.

19 "There is a suspicion that it was a massacre. What could have led

20 to that in Racak? Helena Ranta has information to the effect that among

21 the persons who were dead in Racak were members of the KLA as well.

22 "At that time, Racak was a KLA stronghold. I am convinced that

23 there is quite a bit of information that at that time there were

24 undoubtedly conflicts, clashes between the KLA and the Serb forces. There

25 is no doubt about that.

Page 4780

1 "In addition to that, it was said to me, and I read information

2 about that, that at that place and on that day, members of the KLA were

3 killed."

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes. General, is there anything you can say about

5 that? No doubt we shall hear this -- this witness in due course, but as

6 far as you're concerned, is there anything useful that you can say about

7 her opinions?

8 THE WITNESS: I don't think so, sir, no.

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Mr. Milosevic, you can call the witness. But

10 the fact that we see something on television isn't evidence of it.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, as for this particular lady

12 witness, the other side have been mentioning her. And we see that the

13 witness precisely speaks of that, that Walker used the word "massacre"

14 and --

15 JUDGE MAY: We've been over this. Now, your time is limited with

16 this witness, so it would be an idea to move on to something else.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. I shall continue.

18 However, I would like you to play the next video clip, just one more, and

19 then there's another one after that, but we're going to wait for that next

20 one. Now the following one, please. I hope I haven't made a mistake.

21 [Videotape played]

22 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Walker gathered about 30

23 journalists, went there with them and, after a short while, he said that

24 this was a massacre committed by the Serbs.

25 "At that moment, he could not have made any kind of judgement.

Page 4781

1 However, this opinion was taken over by the OSCE, the United Nations, all

2 governments of the world.

3 "A day later, NATO met at an extraordinary meeting, which was

4 quite unusual. With this kind of behaviour, Walker had lit the fuse of

5 war."

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. I don't want to repeat things yet again because Mr. May opposes

8 this. What Christopher Chatelle [phoen] said in Le Monde and also what Le

9 Figaro said - and I quoted these sources earlier - and they say contrary

10 to what you have been saying. However, the question is the following:

11 Since there were many statements made by persons who were there, did such

12 statements encourage you to take a more comprehensive view of this matter,

13 especially because the post-mortem had not been carried out yet, or the

14 investigation? Simply one day Walker's statements, the next day the NATO

15 extraordinary meeting before anything is actually established in relation

16 to such a complex event. What would your explanation of this be?

17 A. All of these journalists weren't on that hillside. The people

18 that were on that hillside with me were unanimous in their view that those

19 people who were dead had been killed by your forces and had not been

20 resisting at the time. We, at the time, asked or called for a joint

21 investigation which might have established more facts, and you could have

22 gone along and agreed with that investigation. You could have suspended

23 the commanding officer while the investigation went on. You did nothing

24 in that matter. Therefore, we ended up drawing our own conclusions. And

25 I have given you my conclusions as I remember them at the time. And I

Page 4782

1 still think that they are as I gave them at the time.

2 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, the time is moving on, and we must go

3 out on to another topic. You have put very fully and at length a series

4 of opinions about this matter. The witness has answered as best he could.

5 So let's move on.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it is my understanding that I

7 have an entire hour left, Mr. May.

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes, but going over the same point from different

9 directions over and over again is of no assistance to the Court and wastes

10 time.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is a very important point,

12 Mr. May.

13 JUDGE MAY: I agree. It is an important point, but you have

14 covered it fully. You have put a series of opinions to the witness which

15 he can't deal with. He's given his evidence. Now, if there's something

16 you want to ask him about what he saw, then you can, but simply putting

17 opinions to him is of no assistance to anybody.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Do you know the name of Eamon Smith?

21 A. No, but I think there's quite a lot of people with the name Smith

22 around, so I may have missed a few.

23 Q. That's a verifier, an Irish officer, the first one who found the

24 corpses. He stated that there were many casings there, practically only

25 ammunition coming from AK47's. Are you aware of the fact that this

Page 4783

1 ammunition was used by the KLA?

2 A. Both sides used the AK47, yes. It was the weapon of choice.

3 Q. Please. The OSCE report on KLA armament says: "The KLA used

4 different kinds of small arms but most often AK47's. The largest number

5 came from Albania after that country, in 1997, sunk into political and

6 economic chaos." Do you know this from OSCE reports?

7 A. Yes, and I was observing the events in Albania in 1997 and I know

8 that armouries were ransacked and a lot of weapons went missing, but the

9 AK47 was also used by all of your forces.

10 Q. Well, our forces did not have Chinese manufactured ammunition.

11 Are you aware of that or are you not aware of that?

12 A. I'm not aware that the batch numbers were ever made available to

13 us. I'm certainly aware of an ability to use the other side's weapons.

14 It's been done many times in the past.

15 Q. Well, I did not hear that that was ever established in the

16 conflicts in Kosovo and Metohija and that the army and the police took

17 ammunition from the KLA. Is this some new piece of information that you

18 are providing here and now?

19 A. No. I am saying simply that I was not aware that only the KLA

20 were using Chinese ammunition, and I saw no evidence to suggest that only

21 the KLA were using Chinese ammunition.

22 MR. NICE: Before we move on --

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Exclusively, no --

25 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

Page 4784

1 MR. NICE: Before we move on, the question couldn't make clear if

2 the Irishman named Smith has asserted that the ammunition is Chinese. Or

3 if the questioning made clear, the transcript is deficient. I don't have

4 the statement at hand. It might help if we clarified that before losing

5 it by passage of time.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, we are going to have that

7 clarified some other time because I don't have time right now to go into

8 this particular detail.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Could you please answer my following question: Are you aware of

11 the findings of Dr. Milan Stulic, a professor at the University of

12 Belgrade, at the school of law there? After a detailed analysis, he came

13 to the conclusion that all persons killed --

14 JUDGE MAY: No. You can put this evidence before us in due

15 course. There's no point, again, putting more opinions to the witness.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I am asking whether the

17 witness is aware of this analysis made by Professor --

18 JUDGE MAY: Well -- are you aware, General, of the analysis of the

19 professor from Belgrade?

20 THE WITNESS: No, I'm not.

21 JUDGE MAY: Next question, please.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. All right. When we take all of this into account, is Diana

24 Johnson perhaps right, on the 13th of May, 1999, in Paris, when she

25 says --

Page 4785

1 JUDGE MAY: No. That's more opinions.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. The last time you said that the order "terrorism" is an emotive

5 word and it is more appropriate to use the term "the rebels." However,

6 you stated in a document disclosed by the Prosecution, that is your

7 diagram DZ, Serb version 0304656.60, on the right-hand side, you said,

8 "Terrorism all over the province." Is that right?

9 A. It may have been. What is -- please, what is the point of the

10 question?

11 Q. Well, the point is that last time, when I asked you about

12 terrorism, you said that you did not wish to use the word "terrorism"

13 because it's an emotive word, and in your own diagram, you wrote,

14 "terrorism all over the province." In your diagram. So you then used

15 this emotive term, as you had referred to it. Is that right or is that

16 not right?

17 A. There were moments when we did use the word "terrorist" to

18 describe activity, and we did it deliberately to make the point that most

19 of the time we were not using the word. So when there were activities

20 which were genuinely designed, in our view, to terrorise the population,

21 we used the word "terrorist." And so we tried to use it more specifically

22 not as a general catchall phrase.

23 JUDGE MAY: That would be a convenient moment for our break.

24 We'll adjourn now for 20 minutes.

25 --- Recess taken at 12.15 p.m.

Page 4786

1 --- On resuming at 12.35 p.m.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic, you have 50 minutes left.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. You are aware of the Security Council Resolution 1160, dated the

6 31st of March, 1998? You are aware of its contents, aren't you?

7 A. In general, yes.

8 Q. And Resolution 1199 of the 23rd of September, 1998?

9 A. Again, in general, yes.

10 Q. And also Resolution 1203 of the 24th of October, 1998?

11 A. Yes, indeed.

12 Q. In all these Resolutions, terrorism in Kosovo is referred to; is

13 that right?

14 A. I would need to check them, but I know that it is referred to in

15 at least some of them.

16 Q. Well, I mentioned these three to you in which it is mentioned.

17 Do you know and do you believe that the KLA is a terrorist

18 organisation?

19 A. At the time, I think it had some elements which were -- which were

20 capable of terrorist acts. I'm not convinced that the whole thing was a

21 terrorist organisation. At the time, I thought that some of the

22 resistance was as a result of the actions of your forces.

23 Q. All right. Tell me, do you know about the statement made by

24 Gelbard, the US representative for the Balkans, who was also an expert on

25 terrorism, that he said that the KLA was a terrorist organisation?

Page 4787

1 A. I don't specifically know where or when he said that, but if

2 that's his opinion, I -- I acknowledge that that was his opinion.

3 Q. I would like to ask that the book be admitted into evidence as

4 well, the book that was brought into these proceedings by the Prosecution.

5 That is a book by Human Rights Watch. It's called "Under Order." It

6 quotes Gelbard's authentic statement in this regard, that is to say with

7 regard to the nature of the KLA as a terrorist organisation.

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If you want to put it in, let's have a look at

9 it. Or you can put it in after the hearing.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This document was provided by the

11 other side in its --

12 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- in its entirety.

14 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Let's not waste any further time about it.

15 We'll have the Prosecution look for it in due course.

16 MR. NICE: It's already exhibited. I'll give you the number in a

17 minute.

18 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Please. Since you gave a descriptive answer and in rather

21 relative terms, could you please give me a yes or no answer to the

22 question whether the KLA is a terrorist organisation or not.

23 JUDGE MAY: The witness has answered it as best he can, and he's

24 certainly not going to be badgered for a further answer.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please. This is a general and the

Page 4788

1 executive chief of the Verification Mission in Kosovo. This is his

2 testimony.

3 JUDGE MAY: We're not going to get any further on this particular

4 point. We know what you say about it. We will hear some evidence.

5 General, unless there's anything useful you think you might be

6 able to add.

7 THE WITNESS: Well, if I can say, sir, that I do think they had

8 terrorist elements in them, but I do not think that every member of this

9 organisation was a terrorist as such. Many of the things that I saw would

10 have made me think about joining the KLA if I had been an Albanian living

11 there at the time. So there were moments when one's sympathy was

12 certainly aroused for the local people because of the outrageous acts

13 committed on them by the forces of law and order who were supposed to be

14 protecting them.

15 I think I've probably gone further than my testimony is supposed

16 to on that point.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. And do you know, at least for the time when you were in Kosovo,

19 about the crimes that were carried out against both Serbs and Albanians

20 and Turks and Romany, various members of the population, by the KLA?

21 A. I'm certainly aware that the police suffered well over a hundred

22 casualties in the year from March 1998 to March 1999, and that was clearly

23 reprehensible.

24 Q. But except for the police, are you aware of all the civilian

25 casualties among the Serb and Albanian population?

Page 4789

1 A. Yes, I am, and I think I referred to the moments when bodies were

2 found early in the morning at various times and generally at a rate of

3 about four a week throughout the period from January through 'til when we

4 left in March 1999. So, yes, we were aware of all of this level of

5 underlying violence.

6 Q. Very well. Last time you mentioned on the events that took place

7 in the village of Rogovo. In the document that the Prosecution provided

8 together with your statement, with the diagram DZ, and the number was

9 03045366, and it was under point 85, in fact, where you spoke about

10 Rogovo, and I quote: "Probably a shelter of the KLA but not all of them

11 were armed," words to that effect. Is that correct?

12 A. Yes. I think that's more or less what I said.

13 Q. And last time, you also commented when photographs were shown of

14 members of the police force, you commented that they were not typically

15 dressed and accorded special weight to the circumstances and emphasised

16 the police force, the police, as being the perpetrators of some kind of

17 alleged crime; is that right?

18 A. I said I had some doubts as to the circumstances in which the

19 action took place. Specifically, I was very surprised that in an action

20 such as took place, no one was captured alive and no one was wounded,

21 which seemed very odd if you look at any normal exchange of fire when at

22 least as many people get wounded as get killed.

23 Q. Well, precisely because of a statement of yours like that, I

24 should like to ask the technical booth to play the next excerpt, which

25 relates to that, in fact. And it's the last remaining excerpt that I

Page 4790

1 shall be playing.

2 [Videotape played]

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we hear the soundtrack as well,

4 please.

5 [Videotape played]

6 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "29th of January 1999, 24 Albanians

7 were killed and one Serb policeman. So there was a clash. It was not a

8 massacre of civilians, as the Defence Minister claimed.

9 "The historians and a foreign television crew provide evidence of

10 what actually happened. Arms next to Albanians who were allegedly

11 civilians. But they're wearing uniforms, and some of them had KLA

12 insignia.

13 "The first observer of the OSCE that came to the spot was this man

14 on the left here. He is German policeman Henning Hensch [phoen]. It is

15 true what the Defence Minister said on the first day in his statement that

16 I saw via Deutsche Welle, but this does not coincide with what I saw.

17 Nevertheless, the official report about the event in Rogovo speaks about a

18 massacre over civilians -- of civilians. We found a minivan there with 14

19 bodies that had been bullet-ridden. Three bodies were outside the

20 vehicle. In the garage, there were five more bodies of KLA fighters

21 wearing uniforms.

22 "Three hundred metres away, we found four more bodies. The bodies

23 that the Defence Minister showed, we collected together and placed them in

24 one spot. The Serb policemen, myself, and my two Russian colleagues.

25 "So that's how this filming came into being about the alleged

Page 4791

1 execution as Minister Sharpe presented itself and they have nothing to do

2 with what actually happened. It was quite clear that this was no case of

3 massacre of the civilian population because, according to the OSCE, even

4 the KLA commanders said that it was the fighters that had lost their lives

5 there, fighting for the cause and ideal of Greater Albania. And the

6 German minister, apart from that, turned it into a massacre."

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. So you saw there what the German policeman said, who was a member

9 of your mission and who claims that it is true that what his minister

10 stated does not correspond to what he saw on the spot and that it does not

11 correspond with his report, the report that he sent in.

12 Now, did you know about that?

13 A. I certainly didn't know about what the German minister said, but I

14 can remind you of what I said I saw, which was that, I think, four people

15 were wearing KLA uniforms, and I think 12 weapons were shown as having

16 been found with the KLA, or with the civilians, four of whom were in KLA

17 uniform. And I think I said that at the time in front of cameras as well,

18 with General Loncar there.

19 Q. I don't understand what you mean. Explain this to me as a

20 soldier.

21 If the police are shot at from 12 rifles and not 25, can the

22 police count the rifles that the shooting was done from and then establish

23 whether it would return fire or not, and are the 12 rifles that they were

24 shot at, is that too little, even if there were only 12, as you yourself

25 claim? Would that be considered too little, too few?

Page 4792

1 A. I don't know exactly what happened at the scene when the police

2 attacked, but I found it remarkable that everybody was killed who appeared

3 to be on the -- inside that compound who was male. I don't know how many

4 weapons were actually in the hands of the people inside. They could have

5 been brought into the scene from outside by anybody, because there was a

6 quite a long lapse between the incident and my people being allowed in to

7 look at it, and your people were inside there throughout all of that time

8 when mine had no access. So those 12 weapons could have been planted.

9 Had there been good forensic evidence, had there been a proper

10 forensic inquiry, then these facts could have been established. But you

11 can't establish the facts when the investigating Judge comes in, spends

12 one hour sloshing around in the ankle-deep mud and declares the

13 investigation over, which is what happened.

14 Q. All right. When you say that all of them were killed, do you

15 allow for the fact that someone might have escaped?

16 A. No. Some might have escaped, but I'm surprised, of the 25 killed,

17 there were no wounded. That would make me worried as to what happened at

18 the end of the fight.

19 Q. All right. A moment ago when you were describing everything that

20 could have happened, theoretically speaking, that anything could have

21 happened, now, on the basis of those assumptions that something could have

22 happened but perhaps did not happen, would that be sufficient to interpret

23 -- give an interpretation of the event which would give rise to a

24 reaction, the kind of reaction that condemns, although it was obvious

25 that it was a clash between the KLA and the police forces?

Page 4793

1 A. Yes, because the fact that it was a clash between the KLA and the

2 police forces does not give the police forces of any nation carte blanche

3 to go in and kill everybody. Why were they not apprehended and put on

4 trial?

5 Q. And do you maintain that an execution was carried out or that --

6 whether those men died in battle? All reports say that those people were

7 killed in battle.

8 A. All the reports I've seen said that they were dead when we

9 arrived. I don't know what happened at the end of the action. It is

10 possible that people, all of them, were killed in battle, 25 of them

11 sharing 12 weapons. It doesn't fit my experience of the KLA. They tended

12 not to fight when they were confronted with overwhelming force; they

13 tended to run away.

14 Q. Well, perhaps something like that did happen to a part of that

15 group, namely that they did escape.

16 A. Then I'm surprised that we haven't met some of this large number

17 of people that might have escaped.

18 Q. But you, nevertheless, say perhaps -- you say perhaps - a

19 conditional sentence - that perhaps it might have been a clash between the

20 KLA and MUP. You use the conditional tense.

21 A. Yes, I do, because this was two weeks after Racak, so it was in

22 everyone's interest that any significant event like this was properly

23 investigated and the facts established beyond reasonable doubt, and there

24 seemed very little appetite among your people on the ground to do that.

25 That was what made me suspicious, but no more than that because I had no

Page 4794

1 evidence, otherwise I would have stated it.

2 Q. All right. But at that time you made no comment or objection to

3 the cooperation between the police and the Verification Mission. You made

4 no criticism of it.

5 A. I was not seeking more antagonism between the police and the

6 verification unit at the time. I certainly did not express any

7 satisfaction with what had been done. I described with General Loncar, in

8 front of cameras, what I had been shown and made the point at the time of

9 the time that had elapsed between arriving and being shown what was inside

10 the compound. So you're right, I didn't speculate. I didn't think at

11 that stage it was helpful to. The situation there was quite critical as a

12 result of Racak, as a result of Walker having been made persona non grata.

13 There was a lot of media speculation. I was not prepared to add to it in

14 a way that would have been unhelpful.

15 Q. All right. But I'm sure you know that on that particular day, the

16 29th of January, 1999, at about 6.30 a.m., in that village of Rogovo, the

17 Gjakove municipality, at a municipal patrol of the Djakovica SUP, a

18 terrorist attack was launched by a rather large group of KLA members where

19 Rakovic Predrag, a policeman was killed. Is that correct or not?

20 A. I don't know if that's correct. That's the account we were given

21 but we didn't have people there at the time. I know a policeman was

22 killed. I know that, in general, there was a clash between MUP and KLA in

23 the early hours of that morning at that place. I do not know what

24 specifically happened, what the sequence of events was, who started -- who

25 started what, who saw each other first, who fired first, whether anybody

Page 4795

1 attempted to surrender, what subsequently happened. I just don't know any

2 of that, and that is why a proper forensic examination at the time would

3 have been in everybody's interest.

4 Q. Well, why, then, did you not ask for an examination of that kind

5 if you had your doubts at the time?

6 A. I actually did. We attempted to get the Finnish forensic team to

7 stay on and carry out that investigation, but that was not possible for

8 reasons that I wasn't -- that were never made clear to me. I certainly

9 said let's do a proper forensic examination, and I certainly commented on

10 the fact that it's very difficult to ascertain what precisely happened in

11 an area several hundred metres square that is a very, very slushy, dirty,

12 muddy area inside an hour. I felt it was a most inadequate investigation

13 at the time and said so.

14 Q. And do you know that then, after the killing of the policeman --

15 or, rather, the attack by a large group of terrorists on the patrol,

16 police patrol of the SUP of Djakovica, that the group of terrorists fled

17 to the house of Seladin Salaja from whence it opened fire on the members

18 of the police force and that, after that, they found the rifle belonging

19 to the policeman who was killed, in the house, Predrag Rakovic?

20 A. That is not my reading of what happened. As I recall it, one of

21 the corpses was found having been shot sitting on the lavatory. You don't

22 go to the lavatory if you're in the middle of an exchange of fire. So

23 there were suspicious circumstances about this -- this incident.

24 Q. And were you informed of the fact that the house of Berisha

25 Xhderit was a terrorist base in Rogovo? Precisely in yard of that house

Page 4796

1 was where the terrorists were killed.

2 A. We later were informed, I believe, that that was used as a

3 terrorist safe house, yes.

4 Q. And do you know that from the van, the Isuzu van - I don't want to

5 quote the licence plates - which was in the courtyard of this particular

6 house, that they shot at the policeman from there, just as they did from

7 the house? Did you know about that?

8 A. No. But there were over 200 bullet holes in that red van, and I

9 think most of them were made by bullets going into it, not coming out of

10 it.

11 Q. Well, I assume that you as a soldier know full well that when you

12 shoot out of a van, you can't find holes from the bullets exiting from the

13 -- fired from the weapons that were used to shoot at the policemen. Is

14 that logical or not?

15 A. I think my point is I have no idea precisely what went on in the

16 courtyard, but I know what I saw when I went into the courtyard, and the

17 people -- and the van had been riddled with fire.

18 Q. Well, isn't it logical that if the shooting -- isn't that logical

19 if the shooting was coming from the van, if they were shooting at the

20 policemen from the van?

21 A. Not -- you don't shoot through the body of the van in order to

22 shoot out of the van, no. I would say if you are going to shoot from

23 inside the van, you shoot through the window.

24 Q. So in your country, when criminals shoot at the police, it is

25 allowed only to shoot through the windows and not at a vehicle? It has to

Page 4797

1 hit the window -- the windows; is that right?

2 A. When the police shoot at criminals, they shoot aimed shots and

3 they account for every round they fire. There is no evidence that that

4 ever happened with your police.

5 Q. And do you know that this group was led with the infamous Yahi

6 Ibrahimaj [phoen] who was the organiser of the attack on the members of

7 the police force two days previously, that is to say on the 27th of

8 January, 1999, at the Bishtrizhine place when two policemen were seriously

9 wounded? Do you know about that incident?

10 A. I know that there had been an attack on the police, and if you'd

11 been able to catch the perpetrator on put him on trial, you could have

12 sent him to gaol for a long time. But you would have needed evidence that

13 stood up in court to do that.

14 Q. So despite all these assumptions, the ones that you've been

15 talking about, and last time you saw a photograph of the van and the

16 police forces, the bodies of the terrorists, and you come to a conclusion

17 that it was in fact their liquidation. Is that a correct description,

18 would you say, of what you did?

19 A. I have never said it was their liquidation in so many words, but I

20 have always expressed doubt that so many people could be killed in such a

21 way without anyone attempting to surrender and being -- being taken

22 prisoner. Furthermore, the lack of evidence that was ever produced, the

23 lack of a proper investigation at the time all makes me worry, in the

24 context of where we were and when we were at the time, with Racak two

25 weeks behind us, with the Contact Group meeting the next day, that it was

Page 4798

1 in everybody's interest that the facts of this event be made as clear as

2 possible. And I never detected any willingness on any of your officials

3 to do that.

4 Q. Well, all right. Do you know that 14 automatic rifles made in

5 China, not 12, as you said, but 14 made in China were found and a large

6 quantity of ammunition as well, a pistol, the Zbrojovka, and six

7 made-in-China bombs, grenades, a bulletproof vest, US-produced, and that

8 in Xhderit Berisha's yard some spoons were found and bombs which were also

9 made in China. Do you know -- are you aware of this whole list of things,

10 of items that was discovered on the basis of the investigation carried out

11 on the spot, on-site investigation?

12 A. The number of weapons I counted was 12. I did not see -- I think

13 I may have seen a bulletproof vest but I wasn't aware that possession of a

14 bulletproof vest was a capital offence anywhere.

15 Q. No, I'm not talking about that. All I'm doing is reading out a

16 list of items found. I don't want to skip over a single of those items

17 which might comprise fighting and combat equipment, and civilians don't

18 usually wear bulletproof vests, especially the parts of the bombs that

19 were found testified to the fact that not only did the shooting come from

20 the house and the van but that grenades were thrown at the police as well.

21 Does that seem to you be something that would be logical or not?

22 A. I had no reports of grenades being thrown at any time. I only

23 heard reports of small-arms fire.

24 Q. Very well. So grenades are heavy weaponry; is that it?

25 A. I'm saying that the fire that was described by the people who

Page 4799

1 described it to me and to my people was of small-arms fire, that is,

2 rifles and automatic weapons. I don't recall hearing about grenades being

3 used. But I'm not really sure what the relevance of whether they were or

4 were not used was because both sides had access to them.

5 Q. Well, these were parts of bombs and grenades that were made in

6 China. I quoted that a moment ago from the report, the on-site report.

7 So they weren't thrown by members of the police force. That's clear.

8 A. Then it would have been terrific to have captured some of these

9 people alive, to have put them on trial, to have produced all this

10 evidence, and as I said, to have sentenced them in a proper court of law

11 to a prison sentence. That's what everybody else does.

12 Q. Well, all right. Now, do you know how many terrorists were taken

13 into custody in Kosovo and brought before a court of law?

14 A. I know that there were quite a lot of people who were detained,

15 and we expended quite a lot of effort as a mission attempting to gain

16 access to the prisons so that these people could be -- could be talked to.

17 I'm not aware of very much access having been accorded, but I was not the

18 member of the mission whose task this was. I am, however, aware that

19 these requests were made and were routinely denied.

20 Q. I'm talking about something else, Mr. Drewienkiewicz. If you are

21 suggesting that the police force did not wish to arrest these people but

22 wished to kill them, then how come so many terrorists were indeed

23 detained, taken into custody, and taken to court if it was indeed the

24 police's intention to kill them rather than take them into custody? Why

25 did it not then kill all those that it had arrested and taken to court?

Page 4800

1 A. It was my experience that every time there was an attack on armed

2 -- armed KLA, that there were very few prisoners ever taken. In my

3 experience, I was aware of three incidents in which over a hundred people

4 were killed and only -- only nine were taken prisoner. That's -- and I

5 know that at the first of those incidents, on the border in December, a

6 lot ran away. But nonetheless, the lack of prisoners in these exchanges

7 does seem very odd to me.

8 Q. Mr. Drewienkiewicz, in this connection, in regard of this incident

9 which you mentioned and brought up once again, in your first testimony you

10 expressly stated that it was a legal ambush at the border. Do you still

11 maintain that?

12 A. Yes, I do. I think it was a legal act for a sovereign state to

13 defend its borders against people carrying weapons in.

14 Q. All right. Let's go back to Rogovo. Do you know that two

15 terrorists wore camouflage uniforms, four black uniforms with KLA

16 insignia, while the rest wore different kinds of semi-military clothing

17 and that they were identified? I don't want to spend my time by reading

18 all of these names, but a large number of them among those who were

19 identified are not from the village of Rogovo. That is to say, they come

20 from Klecka, Donji Ratis, Smolnice, Jablanica, Bucani, Drenje, Svarahiren

21 [phoen], et cetera.

22 Doesn't that seem unusual to you that a large number of those

23 persons who lost their lives were not from the village of Rogovo?

24 Therefore, they were a formation that was not attached to that particular

25 locality.

Page 4801

1 A. Yes. I'm quite prepared to accept that they didn't live in

2 Rogovo, that they may well have been moving from somewhere, probably in

3 Albania, to somewhere further east within Kosovo and that they overnighted

4 in Rogovo, yes, okay, but that doesn't mean they all had to be killed.

5 Q. How did you get this idea that the police had the intention of

6 killing all of them? They were simply exposed to fire from 6.30 a.m. And

7 I said that to you awhile ago. It's not that the police attacked them,

8 they attacked the police patrol, and then they fled and then they

9 continued to shoot at the police.

10 A. That is one possible interpretation of the events, but I have no

11 personal knowledge that that was the case. I have said what I saw. There

12 were 25 dead people. Four of them were in KLA uniform. I saw 12 weapons.

13 It is quite possible that they had all been using the house as a safe

14 house overnight and were proposing to move on elsewhere into Kosovo the

15 next day. They may well all have been KLA members. But I still don't see

16 why they all had to be killed.

17 Q. And do you find it possible that what the police report says is

18 true, that is to say that they killed a policeman first and that then

19 these men got killed during the crossfire with the police? Do you allow

20 for that possibility or do you preclude it?

21 A. No. That's certainly possible.

22 Q. All right. And do you know that in the monthly report of the OSCE

23 from the 20th of February 1999 that pertains to the period between

24 mid-January and mid-February, it says that one of the commanders of the

25 KLA in Pec admitted that 18 out of 25 terrorists were members of the KLA

Page 4802

1 as far as this event was concerned? Are you aware of that? That's what

2 it says in your report.

3 A. Yes. I remember that coming in. We got that information

4 certainly several days, if not weeks, after the event. It was not at odds

5 with our view of the event, that it may well have been a safe house used

6 by the KLA because people were coming in from Albania on their way into

7 the rest of Kosovo. So that was not different to what we saw as a

8 possible scenario.

9 Q. You established in the document that the Prosecutor attached to

10 your statement, that's the diagram DZ 03044567, under number 120, that you

11 are concerned that the KLA leadership is losing control over KLA zones.

12 My question is: Why were you concerned?

13 A. Because it was clear to us that the KLA were, from time to time,

14 not obeying the orders that they received down their chain of command. It

15 always took a long time for their orders to get down the chain of command.

16 But there were moments when we felt that they were -- they were not

17 restraining themselves at a time when their high command had told them to

18 restrain themselves. I think it was specifically when Rambouillet was on.

19 Q. Last time, you provided a table containing violations of Security

20 Council resolutions. Bearing in mind your system of designation, it seems

21 that it was only the army of Yugoslavia that was violating the Resolution.

22 However, if you look at the contents, many violations came from the KLA.

23 For example, on page 20, the incident from the 22nd and 25th of January.

24 You said this was a violation. This empty space means it was the fault of

25 the army of Yugoslavia. And in the description of the 22nd, you say: "In

Page 4803

1 Nebola the KLA abducted five Serb civilians. They say that they will not

2 release them until the FRY releases nine Albanians from a border incident.

3 The KLA threatens to start a new war at 0800 hours," et cetera, et cetera.

4 How can you call that a violation by the army?

5 Or this other example that I mentioned of the 25th of January.

6 Again, the space is filled out the same way. You say: "In Glogovac, the

7 Verification Mission heard firing and the MUP said that they had wounded a

8 member of the KLA who was shooting at -- who was shooting at him. The

9 authorities showed an AK47 with ammunition belts which allegedly belonged

10 to the wounded person, who was arrested and taken to hospital in

11 Pristina." How can that be an incident that you ascribe to the forces of

12 Yugoslavia? Both of them, actually. Do you have any explanation for

13 that?

14 A. I would need to go through that -- through that entire table. The

15 table was designed to show the sort of events that were happening and to

16 show the level of violence that was happening on both sides. I think that

17 was established quite specifically by that document. However, I was not

18 the author of that document. That was put together by -- by some of the

19 researchers in Pristina, and it was sent to, I think, the Security Council

20 to indicate the level of compliance by both sides with their Security

21 Council Resolutions.

22 Q. All right. But this was under your control. So irrespective of

23 whether -- well, look at the 20th of January, for instance. Again a

24 violation of the Security Council Resolution. You give the following

25 description: "Three brothers were arrested for having weapons." That is

Page 4804

1 to say, illegal possession of a weapon.

2 What is the incident involved that is ascribed to the forces of

3 Yugoslavia? On the 20th of January, you say - page 19 of this document of

4 yours - you say: "The village was surrounded by members of the MUP with

5 eight to ten vehicles. Three brothers, two teachers, and a doctor were

6 arrested for possession of weapons." That is to say, nobody was killed.

7 The police was conducting a search. You know that according to the

8 Criminal Code of Yugoslavia, illegal possession of weapons entails the

9 possibility of a rather high prison sentence. I don't have to go into all

10 of that now. So what is the violation committed by the Yugoslavs? Then

11 you have here those empty spaces of yours, the little blanks that mean

12 that it was the Yugoslav authorities that violated the Security Council

13 Resolution.

14 Also on the 20th of January, you say --

15 MR. NICE: About time we had a question.

16 JUDGE MAY: I'm sorry?

17 MR. NICE: About time we had a question.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

19 MR. NICE: And also, even if the general can follow what the

20 accused is asking him, there's nothing on the ELMO to assist the rest of

21 the public to follow what is being asked.

22 JUDGE MAY: Time is going on. Mr. Milosevic, you have got three

23 more minutes. Is there a question you want to ask?

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Oh, but of course I have many more

25 questions. Unfortunately, then I have to leave this diagram. It was not

Page 4805

1 my understanding that I had only three minutes left. You told me that I

2 had 50 minutes left when we started.

3 JUDGE MAY: That was 47 minutes ago.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. To the best of your knowledge, were there any foreign fighters in

7 Kosovo on the KLA side while you were there with the mission?

8 A. I never met any personally. I certainly heard an unconfirmed

9 report that there were.

10 Q. I'm asking you about your knowledge. I'm not asking you about

11 your encounters. You were the operations chief of the mission. I'm

12 asking you whether you had any knowledge of this, not whether you

13 encountered such persons.

14 A. I heard an unconfirmed report, and I then attempted to find out

15 more about it and was never able to find out anything more about it. So

16 it was not -- it never became fact, as far as I was concerned.

17 Q. And how do you then explain the telegram that was sent by their

18 commander, Tahir Zenaj, on the occasion of the fighting around the village

19 of Lodza? And he says that: "This is part of our recent history as a

20 battle that was won with the professionalism, wisdom, and courage of KLA

21 members and members of foreign troops." That's what he says in a telegram

22 that was published publicly.

23 And here, on several occasions, I showed documents, including FBI

24 documents, and hearings from the Congress about the presence of Al Qaeda,

25 bin Laden's organisation, and other foreign fighters.

Page 4806

1 JUDGE MAY: What is the question?

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The question is whether the chief of

3 mission is not aware of any of this. I would like to tender this as

4 Exhibit 7 and then as 8. "Al Qaeda Balkan links, Kosovo/Bosnia,

5 Kosovo/Albania," it says here --

6 JUDGE MAY: Very well. You can submit those and we will have a

7 look at them along with the other exhibits. Just a moment. We will ask

8 the Registrar to note them, and we will consider them in due course and

9 we'll see whether there's any objection.

10 Mr. Milosevic, that is your time.

11 Now, Mr. Wladimiroff, have you any questions for the witness?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let me just say the following: The

13 Republican Political Committee of the Senate of the United States, there

14 are also explanations there. "From Terrorists to Partners" it is called,

15 and so on.

16 JUDGE MAY: Very well. You can put those documents before us and

17 we will consider admitting them.

18 Now, Mr. Wladimiroff, I'm afraid time is short, but you have ten

19 minutes if you want to ask anything.

20 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, Mr. Wladimiroff.

21 Mr. Milosevic, could you clarify about the number? You said this

22 is Exhibit 7 and 8. What are 5 and 6?

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I already gave these exhibits to the

24 Registrar, and the Registrar has them.

25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

Page 4807

1 Mr. Wladimiroff.

2 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Questioned by Mr. Wladimiroff:

4 Q. May I ask you first a few questions about your army experience.

5 Besides your specialist career as an army engineer, you also got other

6 matters, I understand from your evidence, like manning -- that is,

7 management of manpower aspects, and other logistical tasks; is that right?

8 A. Yes, that's correct.

9 Q. Have you ever been specifically trained in matters of more general

10 military nature, such as commanding combat situations?

11 A. Yes, indeed.

12 Q. Would you explain a little bit about that?

13 A. I have been through the army Staff College and have been trained

14 there -- and have trained as an instructor there. I have been an

15 instructor there actually instructing on command of operational troops.

16 Q. Thank you. Have you ever been specifically trained in matters of

17 humanitarian law?

18 A. Only to the degree that is required by the British army, which is

19 that one is given a mandatory lesson at periodic intervals on stuff such

20 as the Geneva Convention.

21 Q. Thank you. Have you ever been in a commanding position to units

22 that were engaged but in combat situations?

23 A. Not specifically, no.

24 Q. Have you ever been engaged with the drafting of manuals for

25 soldiers in the field in combat situations?

Page 4808

1 A. Yes. I have been involved in rules of engagement, discussions and

2 formulation in Bosnia in the -- in the IFOR and then in the SFOR when I

3 was Chief of Staff of IFOR and SFOR.

4 Q. Right. Do you know of any manual for combat situations of the

5 British army or any other nation within NATO?

6 A. Sorry, any --

7 Q. Any manuals for combat situations of the British army or any other

8 army within NATO? Are you familiar with these kind of --

9 A. Well, yes. Each nation has its doctrine which it teaches its

10 people in, from the moment they go to Sandhurst as a cadet until the

11 moment they leave. So, yes, each nation has its doctrine.

12 Q. You are familiar with the British one, I suppose?

13 A. Yes. Which version?

14 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please pause between question

15 and answer. Thank you.

16 THE WITNESS: British army doctrine has changed a bit over the

17 period of my service, so which particular area are we talking about,

18 please?


20 Q. Say the ones in the year 1999?

21 A. Yes, I was quite familiar with the way doctrine evolved in support

22 -- in respect of peacekeeping operations during my army's involvement in

23 the Balkans.

24 Q. You referred in your evidence to the Yugoslav manual for combat

25 situation. Have you compared that manual with the recent manual of the

Page 4809

1 British army?

2 A. Not line by line. I only was shown the Yugoslav version of it

3 some weeks ago, by which stage I had left the British army.

4 Q. Right. A few other questions. One of your concerns was to avoid

5 an anti-Serb reputation, and for that reason, you did not want to be seen

6 with KLA commanders. Is that your evidence?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Who was assigned to seek and maintain these contacts?

9 A. One of the officers who worked directly for me.

10 Q. Right. And who was he?

11 A. There were -- well, there were a number of them, but the one -- I

12 would say Colonel Mayer [phoen] was the one who specifically I assigned in

13 the first instance.

14 Q. Right. Was he --

15 JUDGE MAY: You're asked to pause.


17 Q. Right. Was this colonel directly one level under you within the

18 OSCE?

19 A. He worked directly to me. We had a chief of liaison which was a

20 position which was not filled at the time that he began to work with the

21 KLA. A chief of liaison was subsequently appointed, and so an extra level

22 of -- of oversight was inserted in the course of January, I think January

23 or February.

24 Q. Right. And who was this liaison officer?

25 A. That was an Irish officer called Richard Heaslip.

Page 4810

1 Q. What was his rank?

2 A. He was initially a colonel and was promoted to brigadier in the

3 field.

4 Q. What was the general verification policy towards the KLA?

5 A. To find out as much as we could about them, to establish contacts

6 with them, so that we could pass messages to their leadership to attempt

7 to get them to refrain from activity that would cause reaction by the FRY

8 forces. In other words, to maintain the ceasefire that they claimed to

9 have -- to have instituted in the course of October 1998.

10 Q. Was that policy comparable to the verification policy towards the

11 VJ and MUP?

12 A. Not entirely, because when we -- when the -- when the original

13 agreements were -- were formulated in October 1998, it was the hope and

14 expectation that there would be a similar agreement conducted with the KLA

15 and with the Albanian side generally. Unfortunately, that -- that

16 agreement never came to anything. That was never produced. But work was

17 going on in that respect to try to get an agreement with them, a formal

18 agreement, right until about mid-December.

19 Q. About realities, to separate that from policies, was the

20 verification activity towards the KLA comparable to the verification

21 activities towards the VJ and MUP?

22 A. Yes, to the greatest extent possible. I think I've made it clear

23 earlier that you can't simply go to the telephone book and look up

24 insurgent organisations under "I". You have to go out and find them and

25 you have to gain their willingness to cooperate with you to any degree.

Page 4811

1 And they're a very suspicious organisation who don't readily communicate

2 with you.

3 Q. Did the OSCE undertake any action to verify training facilities of

4 the KLA?

5 A. Yes. Within Kosovo, yes.

6 Q. And outside of Kosovo; for example, in Albania?

7 A. We had no mandate in Albania. We were the Kosovo Liberation -- we

8 were the Kosovo -- the Kosovo Verification Mission. And we certainly, at

9 the time we started, did not expect to have more than liaison contact with

10 -- with other missions in other countries.

11 Q. Actually, that was what I'm asking. Did you try to obtain any

12 information about such training facilities in Albania?

13 A. I think we did, yes.

14 Q. And you got that kind of information? You received it?

15 A. No, not very much. It was very sketchy. It was very difficult to

16 get.

17 Q. Was there a verification programme for Serb paramilitary units?

18 A. Within Kosovo, yes.

19 Q. Was that a separate programme or was that liaised with the VJ and

20 MUP?

21 A. There was an attempt to -- to make the programme -- well, there

22 was an attempt to engage the VJ and MUP in the process of verification,

23 which they declined to take part in. When we started, we were attempting

24 to go lay down the broad guidelines under which we would operate.

25 Unfortunately, they didn't want to operate under guidelines or agree any

Page 4812

1 with us.

2 Q. Was there an officer specifically designed to deal with this

3 programme, with the paramilitary, of your office?

4 A. Sorry, whose paramilitaries?

5 Q. Was there an officer of your office specifically designed to deal

6 with this verification programme for the Serb paramilitary?

7 A. Which paramilitary? There are Serb army and there are Serb

8 police. Who are the Serb paramilitaries?

9 Q. Let me rephrase my first question again. Was there a verification

10 programme for Serb paramilitary units?

11 A. Do you mean Serb police units?

12 Q. No. I'm asking for Serb paramilitary units. For example,

13 Seselj's men or that kind of units.

14 A. No. There was no programme. We were attempting to verify all

15 units which were legitimate arms of the Yugoslav army. If there was -- if

16 there were paramilitaries, by which I would mean people who were not

17 official servants of the -- of the FRY, we would have attempted to find

18 out about them, but we would certainly have not wanted to -- to -- well,

19 no. We would have found out as much as we could about them. There was

20 not any attempt to make a programme, because certainly, at the start, we

21 did not think there were any Serb paramilitaries operating.

22 Q. Was there any report, that you are aware of, dealing with Serb

23 paramilitary units being active in Kosovo during the time you were there?

24 A. We became concerned that there may be, yes, in the course of

25 January.

Page 4813

1 Q. Did you ever discuss with General Loncar the presence of

2 paramilitary units, Serb paramilitary units in Kosovo?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. What was his position?

5 A. He denied it.

6 Q. Two final questions: The Racak incident, a video clip was made by

7 one of your assistants, was it?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Who was this cameraman?

10 A. I cannot remember his name.

11 Q. Was he employed by the OSCE?

12 A. To the best of my knowledge, yes.

13 Q. Have you been informed by the Yugoslav investigating magistrate at

14 the Racak incident that weapons were found at the place and that

15 photographs were taken of these weapons?

16 A. Yes. And I said, in that case, could we please have access to

17 them, and we never got it.

18 Q. All right.

19 MR. WLADIMIROFF: That's all I ask, Your Honour.

20 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I obviously can't re-examine the witness

21 certainly in relation to documents in the time allowed. I know he's

22 flying off tomorrow, I don't know what time his flight is, and I don't

23 know if he's able to come back tomorrow morning, but if not, I've just got

24 a couple of questions I can ask him and I'll have to deal with exhibits in

25 his absence --

Page 4814


2 MR. NICE: -- but it will have to be tomorrow morning.

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes. I think the witness has come back and he's been

4 here long enough, quite honestly.

5 Re-examined by Mr. Nice:

6 Q. Do you remember looking at this first video clip with orange

7 vehicles on the hill? If we can give you the map, would you be able to

8 identify where they were or not? Do you remember where we --

9 A. Yes. Yes, I can.

10 MR. NICE: While it's coming, Your Honour, it's -- I've got quite

11 a lot to deal with about the exhibits that the accused put in. I know we

12 get into trouble if we run beyond quarter to. If I ask this witness three

13 questions now and he can't come back tomorrow and I have to deal with the

14 exhibits without him, I hope that's acceptable.

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

16 MR. NICE:

17 Q. Just to assist the Chamber, please, could you look at this and

18 point out where the vehicles were travelling, which was the first part of

19 the clip.

20 MR. NICE: Can it go on the overhead projector, please.

21 Q. Exhibit 94, tab 73. From your knowledge of the area, where were

22 the vehicles travelling on that particular road?

23 A. I think they were inside Racak. This is the MUP vehicles with the

24 policemen walking alongside.

25 Q. Yes.

Page 4815

1 A. I think they were going along this road, inside the village. So

2 it would be at about that location, I would say.

3 Q. The video, at that stage, taken from there, where were the orange

4 vehicles, so far as you could judge?

5 A. The orange vehicles were on the ridge line, which would be about

6 there.

7 Q. So consistent with being taken from the same vantage point by the

8 same video person at the same time or not, or can't you say?

9 A. You can't say because you don't know what magnification is being

10 used on the lens.

11 MR. NICE: Your Honour, that's as far as I can go with that in the

12 time.

13 Q. Second question: In the gulley where you were looking, with all

14 the bodies, first of all, was there anybody, medical or otherwise, looking

15 at the bodies with a view to lining up the wounds on the bodies themselves

16 with the damage to the clothing?

17 A. I don't think there was anybody who was formally medically

18 qualified. I do believe we had one policeman who had seen gunshot wounds

19 at close range in the course of his service, and certainly one of the --

20 of the people with me had seen similar -- similar-looking bodies in

21 Northern Ireland.

22 Q. What was the name of that person?

23 A. I would need to rack my brains, I'm afraid.

24 Q. All right.

25 A. But both of them indicated separately to me that they felt it was

Page 4816

1 impossible for those bodies to have been killed other than in the clothes

2 they were wearing.

3 Q. Nobody drew to your attention any inconsistency between a bullet

4 hole and a wound?

5 A. No. None whatsoever. The opposite, rather.

6 Q. The last question in the time allowed, although we'll look at the

7 document tomorrow, one of the exhibits that the accused wants to produce

8 for which we do have an English version is the report of the investigating

9 Judge, and she says -- just give me one second to find it. She says of

10 the weapons, in the report, that she was informed by police

11 representatives that during the search, police -- members of the MUP had

12 found weapons and parts of military uniforms and that "they had taken

13 everything with them." Do you have any comment on that, on either whether

14 it was said to you, whether it was the case, could have been the case, or

15 whether you ever heard any such suggestion that all the weapons had been

16 taken away by the MUP?

17 A. Yes. I cannot remember whether it was the judge, but certainly I

18 can remember being told that there had been weapons and equipment found

19 and, at the time and every time subsequently when this sort of

20 conversation took place, I said, well, you must let us see this stuff. It

21 must be produced. We can't just go on being told about this thing and

22 being invited to believe the speaker because it had not always been the

23 case that everyone had been entirely honest with all of the parties.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. NICE: I see the time, Your Honour, and I've got just one very

Page 4817

1 short administrative announcement that I'll have to make before tomorrow's

2 evidence but that's, in the time, all I can ask of this witness.

3 JUDGE MAY: Can you just deal with the administrative

4 announcement.

5 MR. NICE: Yes. Tomorrow's witness, of whom the accused says he

6 has no name, was provided to him in statement form on the 7th of February

7 with the name written on it. It's a name he knows, I have no doubt,

8 perfectly well from the context of the statement that's been served on

9 him, and that witness will be giving evidence in open session. That's

10 after I've dealt with the exhibits tomorrow, which will take a little bit

11 of time to sort out and tidy up.

12 JUDGE MAY: And Mr. Loku, who has been hanging about.

13 MR. NICE: In which case it will come after Mr. Loku, Your Honour

14 is quite right to remind me.

15 JUDGE MAY: We will deal with the exhibits tomorrow, those Defence

16 exhibits, to see if there is any objection; if not, we'll formally admit

17 them.

18 MR. NICE: There are objections, Your Honour, and tidying up for

19 the others.

20 JUDGE MAY: Very well. General, thank you for coming. That

21 concludes your evidence. You are free to go.

22 [The witness withdrew]

23 JUDGE MAY: We will adjourn until tomorrow morning.

24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,

25 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 14th day of May,

Page 4818

1 2002, at 9.00 a.m.