Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5548

1 Monday, 27 May 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Romano.


8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 Examined by Ms. Romano: [Continued]

10 Q. Witness, we are now in March 1999. In March 1999, before the NATO

11 bombing started, was the VJ in your town, in Urosevac?

12 A. Yes, the army was present, as was also the police. There were

13 also Serbian paramilitaries.

14 Q. Did they wear uniform?

15 A. Yes, they were in uniform.

16 Q. What kind of uniform?

17 A. The army had its own uniform. There were also police and army

18 elite forces. There were the Frenki's men, SAJ, and other paramilitary

19 units.

20 Q. Can you describe the army uniform, what colour and any other

21 description you can give us?

22 A. The army had camouflage uniforms. Frenki's men also had

23 camouflage uniforms but a different colour.

24 Q. What colour was the army?

25 A. If I were to see a photograph, I could tell you better.

Page 5549

1 MS. ROMANO: Can I have the witness shown Exhibit 18, I believe.

2 Q. Witness, starting with the army, can you see in the sheet in front

3 of you any uniform that is similar to the ones that the army was using?

4 A. Yes. This is the army uniform.

5 Q. Which number?

6 A. Number 1.

7 Q. You said it was also a special police army. Did they wear the

8 same uniform?

9 A. No. That's number 8. That was the uniform of the special forces,

10 so-called Frenki's men. That's number 8.

11 Q. What was the uniform of the regular police?

12 A. Number 6.

13 Q. You mentioned the SAJ. Can you see any uniform?

14 A. That's number 6, but there are -- there are no SAJ units here.

15 But it's similar to that, number 6.

16 Q. Were there other paramilitary groups?

17 A. Yes, there were. There were other paramilitary groups belonging

18 to Seselj, what were called the White Eagles. Here it's number 9. These

19 were Serbian paramilitaries.

20 Q. Thank you, Witness. What were they doing in your town right

21 before the NATO bombing started in March?

22 A. At the beginning, they went out of their barracks and came to the

23 town and sent the people out of their houses by force with their armoured

24 vehicles and cars. They put them among the garages of Albanian houses and

25 in private shops and in private houses belonging to Albanians.

Page 5550

1 I should also mention the places where they were positioned.

2 Q. Before you continue, Witness, you mentioned "they." Who are

3 "they"? The army, the police, the other groups; who are "they"?

4 A. This was the army, the police and other groups of Yugoslavia -- of

5 Serbia.

6 Q. Where was the VJ located?

7 A. Could you repeat the question again, please?

8 Q. Where was the VJ stationed? Did they have a barracks?

9 A. The Yugoslav army was stationed in the villages of Komogllave,

10 Rakaj, Naruk, and Nerodime, all in Ferizaj municipality.

11 Q. You said they moved to town and they expelled the villagers. Why

12 did they do that?

13 A. They did this in the villages of Komogllave, Rakaj, Nerodime and

14 Naruk.

15 Q. And what happened to the people of these towns?

16 A. They sent away the people from these villages and they fled to

17 Skopje and some to Albania.

18 Q. And what happened to you and your family? Did you leave your home

19 as well?

20 A. Yes. I went and took my family, because the army and the

21 paramilitaries were firing with hand-held mortars at my home, and I

22 decided to take my family and go. I went to the village of Greme.

23 Q. Did you join the other villagers?

24 A. Yes. I also went with my neighbours and other villagers. We

25 wanted to go to Skopje, but in the convoy where we were, the word spread

Page 5551

1 that I was with the Serbian police, and he will play a trick on us. And

2 the convoy started to keep a distance from me, and I didn't have anything

3 to do, so I took my family and went to the village of Rakaj, and there

4 Serbian paramilitaries were, and out of fear, I decided to go back to my

5 own home.

6 Q. What were you afraid of?

7 A. I was afraid of both sides. I was -- I was afraid of the people

8 who were talking, and I was afraid for my family, but I was also afraid of

9 the paramilitaries who were in Rakaj and whom I didn't know.

10 Q. You came back home. Did you leave again?

11 A. Yes. I went home, and after a time I took my family. And I heard

12 from neighbours that the train was travelling for Skopje, and I decided to

13 take my family, and my wife and I went to Skopje. But when we came out at

14 the Ferizaj train station, there were security inspectors of Ferizaj

15 there, and there was Dimitri and Crni, and out of fear that they might do

16 something, I decided to go yet again back home with my wife and my family.

17 And I saw them off, and they went off to Skopje. And there at the

18 station, Crni and Dimitri called me, and we went to a cafe and sat with

19 them in this cafe belonging to SUP.

20 Q. Just before you continue, so your family left to Skopje?

21 A. That's right. My family went to Skopje as refugees.

22 Q. And you and your wife stayed?

23 A. That's right. My wife and I stayed at home.

24 Q. So after you met Stojkovic and Dimitri in the railway station, you

25 went to a cafe. What did you discuss over there?

Page 5552

1 A. There we discussed, as they put it -- they said that war has now

2 started in Kosova, and now we're going to flee to Greece.

3 Q. What else did you discuss?

4 A. We also discussed that business that we had in 1998 that I had to

5 carry out and other jobs that Mitic decided.

6 Q. So did Mitic want you to continue to work for him?

7 A. Yes. Then Dimitri and Crni came to my house, and some others,

8 members of the Anti-Terrorist Unit, and Mitic had sent me orders to go to

9 his office.

10 Q. So, Witness, after the cafe and you had the conversation with

11 Dimitri and Stojkovic, did you come back home?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And at that point, you knew that Mitic wanted you to continue to

14 do the jobs; is that correct?

15 A. Yes. And I knew that they would want me to do jobs again, but I

16 couldn't get away because, as I say, they had put a watch on the train

17 station and also on the roads that led to Skopje. So there was no way I

18 could get to Skopje without being seen by the Serbian police.

19 Q. So after you came home, you knew that Mitic wanted to talk to you.

20 Did anybody come to your place to pick you up?

21 A. Yes. Crni came, Stojkovic, Dimitri, and other members of the

22 Serbian police.

23 Q. Can you describe the other members of the Serb police, if they

24 were wearing uniform?

25 A. Yes. The members of the special units had a camouflage uniform,

Page 5553

1 because in 1999, they joined the police forces, because this was a secret

2 Black Hand organisation, and they joined with the anti-terrorist groups

3 during the war and took part in operations together. They had cars. They

4 had stolen Mercedes. They were cars belonging to Albanians that were

5 stolen during the war. There was a Mercedes and a red BMW, and also a

6 white Mercedes.

7 Q. So, Witness, what you're saying is that the Black Hand -- the

8 group Black Hand was working with the special anti-terrorist group, the

9 SAJ?

10 A. Yes. During the war, in 1999, they joined and worked together but

11 only their uniforms were different.

12 Q. What was the difference?

13 A. The -- there was no difference. The only difference was in the

14 uniform.

15 Q. But what was that, the colour?

16 A. Yes, the colour. Only the colour. It was different.

17 Q. What was the colour of the Black Hand?

18 A. Can you say it again? I didn't understand the question.

19 Q. What was the colour of the uniform of the Black Hand group?

20 A. The uniform of the Black Hand group was black.

21 Q. And what about the SAJ?

22 A. The special unit had camouflage uniforms.

23 MS. ROMANO: Can I have the witness shown Exhibit 18 again,

24 please.

25 Q. Witness, can you see on this sheet the SAJ uniform or the Black

Page 5554

1 Hand uniform?

2 A. Here there is no Black Hand uniform.

3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter requests the witness to talk

4 into the microphone.


6 Q. Can you please talk into the microphone and repeat what you said.

7 A. There are no Black Hand uniforms. There's only the SAJ uniform,

8 which is number 6.

9 Q. Thank you. Witness, after they picked you up at your place, did

10 you go to Mitic's office?

11 A. Yes. I met Mitic in his office, which was in the town, in the

12 Bankkos building, and there they showed me a number of photographs of

13 members of the KLA and other people, and there in Mitic's office there

14 were also two security inspectors, Dragan Jashovic, and also Spaca

15 Spravala, and they wanted me to know -- wanted to know if I knew any of

16 these members of the KLA. And I recognised some of them. And Dragan also

17 knew one of them from Jezerc called Ekrem Baliu, and I knew them but only

18 their first names and I only recognised their faces, and after a time,

19 they gave me a coat and a mask and sent me to a cafe called Pranvera in

20 Ferizaj. This was during the war of 1999.

21 Q. Just to clarify, the two security inspectors, were they policemen?

22 Were they working with Mitic to the same police?

23 A. Yes. They worked together, and they were inspectors on -- for

24 political affairs. They belonged to the state security.

25 Q. They belonged to the DB?

Page 5555

1 A. Yes. Yes. They said the DB. In Ferizaj SUP.

2 Q. You said you were asked to go to this restaurant Pranvera. What

3 happened there?

4 A. They took me to the Pranvera restaurant where the Serbian police

5 was established with the inspectors, and there was Branko Nedeljkovic as

6 head inspector, and Srecko Doganovic, and Dragan Joka, and Lubisha. He

7 was a deputy commander. And there were some other inspectors there.

8 Q. What were they doing there?

9 A. They had also set up a prison in the cafe cellar, and they had

10 people that they arrested in the town and from the village of Racak and

11 other villages, and they took them and put them in the cellar there.

12 Q. What kind of prison was that?

13 A. It was a kind of prison -- mostly they were looking for people

14 from the village of Racak, because they committed the Racak massacre. And

15 then the NATO bombing started. And after that, they had, out of spite

16 against the villagers of Racak, they would take them to Ferizaj and put

17 them in the cellar and maltreat them and even kill them.

18 Q. What happened when you were in the restaurant? What did you see

19 there?

20 A. I saw a person from Ferizaj called Muhamed Bega. He was 50 years

21 old, and they had tied him up there to a chair with handcuffs and they

22 were beating him. This was Dragan Jashovic and Spaca Spravala.

23 Q. Why were they beating him?

24 A. Apparently they had information that his son was in the KLA, with

25 the name of Sadik.

Page 5556

1 Q. What did you see there after that?

2 A. I saw them when they took me to the Pranvera cafe.

3 Q. Yes, Witness, you are in the Pranvera cafe. And how many people

4 were detained there?

5 A. There were a lot of people there in that cafe cellar. There were

6 more than 20. I also heard from the inspectors that there were two

7 Albanian women there too. There was a well there at the cafe entrance.

8 There were wallets. There were documents belonging to the prisoners, and

9 there they were guarded by two reserve policemen whose faces I knew. They

10 were from Ferizaj.

11 Q. And were all the people detained in the basement members of the

12 KLA?

13 A. No. Not one of them was a member of the KLA. They were civilians

14 whom they caught in the streets and in shops and round about. There was

15 not a single member of the KLA.

16 Q. So why were they detained?

17 A. They held them because the Serbian police were angry at the

18 villagers of Racak. And as soon as they caught them on the street or if

19 they were from Petrova in Shtime commune, they would take hold of them and

20 they would beat them with baseball bats. And there were also electric

21 cable, and they were beating them. And the -- the police inspectors and

22 the reservists in line, they would maltreat them.

23 Q. Witness, do you know what happened to these people, and also, do

24 you know what happened to the man that you identified in the photos, the

25 photos that were shown to you?

Page 5557

1 A. I don't know what happened to Muhamed Bega, I only saw the

2 inspectors beating him and asking him about his son, where his son was.

3 And he never answered, but later, I don't know what happened to him. And

4 they took me -- took me to the cellar, as I said before, and they put me

5 in a car and a mask so that nobody would recognise me. But I didn't

6 recognise any of them. So I came up out of the cellar again and went.

7 Q. So you were -- Witness, you were taken -- you were put in -- you

8 were given a mask, and you were taken into the cellar in order to

9 recognise any person that belonged to the KLA? That's what happened to

10 you?

11 A. Not as a member of the KLA but -- but in case was any member of

12 the family, any son or daughter -- any son, in case any of them had a

13 member of the family in the KLA.

14 Q. And do you know if these people, if they were released after?

15 A. I don't know any more what happened to them. I have no

16 information on this.

17 Q. Thank you. Going back to the work that you're doing to Mitic, did

18 Mitic discuss with you again starting to continue to do the tasks you

19 started again in 1998?

20 A. Yes. I went along with that business of 1998. And he added some

21 other jobs for 1999. He started when the war started.

22 Q. So was -- was it the same list that you were discussing during

23 1998?

24 A. It was the same list, but some had been added. Other people and

25 other buildings had been added.

Page 5558

1 Q. What kind of new targets were added?

2 A. The new tasks added were places where the buildings where the OSCE

3 had stayed in 1998, they had been noted as buildings to be burnt, and

4 explosives were to be planted there too.

5 Q. Witness, were you provided with a uniform?

6 A. I didn't have a uniform. I only had a coat and a mask.

7 Q. A weapon?

8 A. I had a weapon. I had an .88 pistol with a permit from Mitic.

9 Q. How many people were working with you in 1999?

10 A. There were a lot of people. There were 15 to 20 of them.

11 Q. Who were they?

12 A. These people were -- well, I couldn't know their names, but I

13 would know them from photographs. There was Dragan Stojkovic, known as

14 Crni, Dimitri, a policeman called Dzira from Babus. I mentioned Dimitri

15 with the pseudonym Van Damme, and many others, I would know them from

16 photographs.

17 Q. Were they members of the Black Hand or the SAJ?

18 A. They were members of the Black Hand and of the SAJ, but in the

19 1999 war, the two groups joined together and worked together.

20 Q. Did they have cars and weapons?

21 A. Yes. They had cars, weapons, and they had armoured vehicles.

22 Q. Can you describe the cars?

23 A. Yes. They had -- as I said before, there was a Mercedes, a red

24 BMW, and a white 101. There were police jeeps. There was an armoured

25 vehicle. They also had weapons, automatic with silencers, pistols, 15

Page 5559

1 CZs. They also had knives and M53 automatic rifles and other equipment.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MS. ROMANO: Can I have the witness shown Exhibit 17 and 21, I

4 believe.

5 Q. Starting with the vehicles, can you show the Court any of the

6 vehicles you mentioned, if you see them on the sheet.

7 A. Here there are no photographs of what we're looking for.

8 MS. ROMANO: Can the usher please show all the photographs.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not here. There was an armoured

10 vehicle like this one, number 9. And a jeep, number 13.


12 Q. Thank you.

13 MS. ROMANO: Can I have the weapons, please.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was one like number 1 here.

15 MS. ROMANO: The other photos.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, none of those.


18 Q. Do you know the name of the weapon in number 1 photo?

19 A. That's an automatic rifle, M45.

20 Q. Thank you, Witness. What did Mitic instruct you to do?

21 A. Mitic told me to go with the above-mentioned people to work, to

22 set up -- to do work against people who had shown resistance.

23 Q. Do you remember what was your first work?

24 A. The first work was to go to Agim Ibrahimi in Ferizaj, in the new

25 neighbourhood, to go to his house, and we went there. We had three cars

Page 5560

1 with us, and Mitic ordered him to be killed because he was a patriot. He

2 was an Albanian patriot, and the police were afraid of him. They

3 mentioned him quite often. And so we were given orders to go and murder

4 him. So we went there --

5 Q. Witness --

6 A. -- and we killed him.

7 Q. Witness, you went to the house of Agim Ibrahimi in 1998 and you

8 did not kill him or liquidate him. You were asked to come back in 1999

9 and do the job again. What happened in 1999?

10 A. In 1999, we went back by car. We went to his house, and Dimitri

11 went out and the other members there at his house, Dimitri and another

12 policeman who was with a mask and black clothes and a rifle and a

13 silencer. And there were two dogs there in front of the door. We broke

14 in the door and went in. And ten minutes later, they came out of his

15 house and talked -- spoke on the walkie-talkie with Mitic and said what

16 had been done. I didn't hear what exactly happened to the person because

17 I was outside in the car.

18 Q. And did you hear shooting?

19 A. I heard shots, but they were with a silencer. I could -- I just

20 heard when they killed the dogs first.

21 Q. Do you remember a man called Izet Beqiri?

22 A. There's a Yzdri Beqiri.

23 Q. Yes. Was he on the list?

24 A. Yes. Yzdri Beqiri was a member of the LDK for Ferizaj in Kosova,

25 and he had a house. In his house were schoolrooms for Albanian children,

Page 5561

1 and orders were given for his house to be burnt down; like, explosives to

2 be planted and the house to be burnt.

3 Q. And was the job done?

4 A. Yeah. We went and we planted the explosives there with the Serb

5 police organisation, and we blew it up.

6 Q. What happened to the Motel Gimi?

7 A. The Motel Gimi, Mitic had heard that the son of Agimi, who was

8 called Fadil, had become a member of the KLA, and so for this reason we

9 were told to plant explosives at his home and blow it up.

10 Q. And what happened? Did you do that?

11 A. Yeah. The members of the special forces, special units, did the

12 job, yeah.

13 Q. How did they do it?

14 A. We went to the hotel twice because the first time we couldn't --

15 the first time we were there with an armoured vehicle and cars - Mercedes,

16 BMW and the other car - and there were a lot of people around, and fire

17 was opened. They opened fire. Then people were frightened and started

18 running away and -- so we -- because we didn't want anyone to see what was

19 going on. But there were still people at the motel. And they began

20 shooting, and we saw people falling. There were shots, but they were

21 still alive, wounded. They fell to the ground. So they went into the

22 building and planted the explosives and blew up the motel.

23 Q. So were they shooting at the people outside and inside the hotel?

24 A. No, not inside. It was only around out on the street that they

25 were shooting, because there were people out on the street.

Page 5562

1 Q. And what happened to the motel?

2 A. Well, explosives were planted, but the work didn't -- the job

3 didn't go off well. So we had to go back the second time. I was in the

4 car, and that time they planted the explosives, gas, gasoline, took

5 gasoline inside and blew it up.

6 Q. Witness, do you remember a man who was a solicitor in Ferizaj?

7 A. Yes. He was a solicitor in Ferizaj. Avdulseljami, who was in the

8 Lagjja e Re neighbourhood or street in Ferizaj.

9 Q. And was he on the list?

10 A. Yes. He was on the list. We were -- he was supposed to be

11 killed. Mitic had given an order for him to be liquidated. And if he

12 were not there, we were supposed to take his daughter.

13 Q. And did you do that?

14 A. I went with them to his house. We had three cars with us, a

15 Mercedes, the BMW, and the third car. And Dimitri and two or three other

16 people went in from the police. We were all together. They went in and

17 waited for five minutes, ten minutes, maybe. But -- well, Dimitri and the

18 others stayed in the house, and the rest of us, we went back to Bankkos,

19 to the headquarters, where the police headquarters were.

20 Q. And do you know what happened to him or his daughter?

21 A. No. I never found out what happened.

22 Q. Do you know at least if the report -- the job was reported as

23 done?

24 A. I don't know what happened, no. I don't know whether it was done

25 or not. I didn't hear anything.

Page 5563

1 Q. Witness, in 1998, you went to -- you testified that you went to

2 the house of Osman Nuha. Did you go back in 1999?

3 A. Yeah. In 1998, there was an order given to go to his village, to

4 the house of Osman Nuha, to the village of Nerodime. So I went with

5 Stojkovic and this guy who had the pseudonym Crni. We had Chinese hand

6 rockets, and we went to the village there, to the police station in

7 Nerodime, and there an order was given -- or Crni was given an order to

8 throw a bomb into the house of Osman Nuha, and the second bomb was for the

9 house of Shaban. And he threw the bomb into Osman Nuha's house and the

10 second into Shaban's house and then we returned and went back home.

11 Q. This was in 1998. And in 1999, what happened?

12 A. Yeah. In 1999, I went with them because Mitic didn't like this

13 guy because he was a patriot, and the Serbs don't like them, and they

14 don't like -- mutually they don't like one another, didn't like one

15 another. So an order was given that this person be liquidated, to be

16 killed. Dimitri was -- got the order, and his people from the special

17 unit were given this order to kill him.

18 Q. And with a yes or no, did you do that? Did you or Dimitri or any

19 other person of the group, did you do that?

20 A. I didn't do that job. It was Dimitri who did it with the other

21 people. I only accompanied them. I didn't really see what happened, so I

22 don't know. I just heard later them talking on the walkie-talkie,

23 Dimitri, from the car, and was asked what happened, and they said, "Well,

24 there's a lot of blood." There was a knife. They had gloves and masks.

25 So I don't know what happened inside. I just heard the screaming of the

Page 5564

1 women and the children. I was quite a ways away and sitting in the car,

2 so I don't know exactly what happened.

3 Q. Witness, there was a house that was used by Mother Theresa

4 organisation that was in a hospital. Do you remember what happened?

5 A. Yeah. It was the house of Remzi Beqiri in Ferizaj. It was a

6 health centre to help the Albanians. He was the brother of Yzdri Beqiri.

7 The Serb policemen didn't like him for this reason. And so explosives

8 were planted. The two houses were quite -- side by side, so his house was

9 destroyed too and the health centre in it.

10 Q. Witness, there was a motel called Sokoli that was the OSCE

11 residence for a while. What happened to this motel?

12 A. Yes, this building in the Zejenl Hajdini Street was where the OSCE

13 had its headquarters, and in 1999, an order was given to bomb it because

14 the observers of the OSCE had been there.

15 Q. And with a yes or no, was it bombed?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What happened to a man called Ilmi Recica?

18 A. Yeah. They were -- the Serb police was afraid of him too. They

19 -- Mitic and the other inspectors spoke about him quite often as a

20 dangerous person and that he should be liquidated with members of his

21 family.

22 Q. Who was he?

23 A. I'm talking about Ilmi Recica, who was politically -- had been

24 politically convicted earlier for political reasons, because he was a

25 patriot. And so the police had him under observation. And during the

Page 5565

1 war, he was a commander of the KLA for -- in the village of Jezerc. And

2 an order was given that his house be blown up, be mined and destroyed.

3 Q. And again with a yes or no, did it happen?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And was Ilmi Recica also the head of the Human Rights and Freedom

6 Council?

7 A. Yes, he was. Earlier, in about 1990 he was, and then later he

8 joined the KLA and was a commander of the UCK -- of the KLA later.

9 Q. Who is Isufi Ademi and what happened to him?

10 A. He was from the village of Rakaj, and his family had had problems

11 with the Serb police earlier. They had been looking for arms, the police

12 had been looking for arms from his family. And to find a solution, he

13 agreed to work, just to save his family, to work with them. And later on,

14 there was information that this person had fled and joined the KLA and so

15 an order was given to go and murder him and his family, his brothers.

16 Q. And what happened?

17 A. We went with the armoured vehicle, with the jeep, and a BMW, and a

18 Mercedes and the other car. We went to the village of Rakaj. We

19 surrounded the house of the person in question in Rakaj. At the start --

20 he had four dogs in the courtyard, and we shot at them, and we shot at the

21 house. Dimitri shot at the house. And there were no dogs inside the

22 house. And so we set the house on fire, six or seven houses and the

23 garage and all the buildings around, and burnt everything down.

24 Q. To whom belonged the six houses?

25 A. Those belonged to his brothers, as I said, his brothers, his

Page 5566

1 cousins, family members. They were all burnt down, the houses.

2 Q. Witness, what happened to Fari Mahalla?

3 A. There was an order given to plant explosives in the house of Fari

4 Mahalla and blow it up because they had heard that this person had been

5 financing the KLA.

6 Q. And with a yes or no, did you do that?

7 A. Yes, they did it.

8 Q. Witness, do you remember any other job that you did?

9 A. I didn't do the other jobs myself. It was the Serb police who did

10 it, like used force. They did a lot of other things. A lot of other

11 houses were blown up. Nezir Maqiteva, his house and other houses in the

12 -- a lot of other houses. Nezir Maqiteva.

13 Q. Did they liquidate anybody?

14 A. No. I don't know. As far as I would know -- as far as I was

15 there, no. But there was a lot of plundering by paramilitaries of houses.

16 Crni and his people took part in the plundering of a couple of houses, and

17 there were other paramilitary units involved in plundering.

18 Q. Witness, right before the NATO forces arrived in June 1999, did

19 Mitic contact you?

20 A. Sorry, I didn't understand the question. Could you repeat it?

21 Q. I'll make another question. I'll go to another area first. Do

22 you remember a fight in Kacanik between the KLA and the Serb forces?

23 A. Yes, there was a fight. I was there at the time when the KLA was

24 fighting the special units of Serbia. We were in the village of Rakaj.

25 From Kacanik, the special units were called by radio to come and assist,

Page 5567

1 because they were being -- had been surrounded by the KLA. And Mitic was

2 asked by walkie-talkie to go, and we so we went to Kacanik.

3 Q. And what happened to the KLA?

4 A. When we went, we found that a police vehicle had been destroyed.

5 It was a green-coloured vehicle, and two policemen had been wounded. One

6 was called Zuti from Shtime and the other I didn't know. And special

7 forces then came in and took the wounded people away. And the fighting

8 broke out with the KLA, between the KLA and the special forces. And there

9 was a big -- quite a battle. When it got dark, the army came in, the

10 normal Yugoslav army, with tanks and with Praga vehicles, and there were

11 paramilitary units with police inspectors, Serbs. There was one called

12 Novica who took part in the action. He was with the army and the Serb

13 paramilitaries.

14 They accompanied us with tanks and Praga vehicles to the -- back

15 to the police station in Ferizaj then.

16 Q. Witness, did Mitic ever mention to you targeting civilians,

17 killing civilians?

18 A. He did say -- he did talk about killing civilians when we went to

19 Rakaj. In Rakaj and Nerodime.

20 Q. Do you remember, what did he say?

21 A. He said -- as I mentioned before, he told me to go to Rakaj and

22 kill Isuf and his brothers and other menfolk that were there. And I also

23 heard the police in Kacanik say that the policemen of Ferizaj were asking

24 whether there was civilians in the town of Kacanik, and they asked why,

25 and they said, Why have you left them there? Why are they not killed?

Page 5568

1 Q. Thank you, Witness. Turning back to the question that I made

2 before, right before the NATO forces arrived in June 1999, did Mitic

3 contact you?

4 A. Before the NATO forces came, Mitic called me up by phone and told

5 me to escape from home and to take my wife, but I didn't want to do this.

6 I was also afraid that they might, in the end, kill me. (redacted)

7 (redacted) there in

8 the yard. And I hid there in a pit like a well until morning, and then

9 they surrounded the house, and they were masked, and they were looking for

10 me, and they looked for me, but they didn't find me. And then about 5.00

11 in the morning, I changed my place. I went to another house belonging to

12 an uncle in a different neighbourhood, and then I hid myself well and

13 waited until dark, until the Serbian army and police went away. And then

14 I saw NATO helicopters entering. And I came out and went home when they

15 had arrived.

16 Q. Witness, who were looking after you, the Serbs or the KLA?

17 A. At the time when I escaped, I was running away from the Serbs,

18 because I didn't want to go with them to Serbia. And I was also

19 frightened that they were -- I was also frightened that they would kill

20 me, so I hid myself until they went away.

21 Q. Were you afraid also that the KLA was looking for you?

22 A. Yes, I was afraid. And I thought the KLA also came to question

23 me, and I was at my uncle's house. And four inspectors in plainclothes

24 belonging to the KLA came. I didn't know their names but I recognised

25 their faces. And they came to my uncle's house where I was with my wife,

Page 5569

1 and they asked me, and I said, "Could you come later in the evening when

2 it was dark, when people wouldn't see?" And they said, "No problem." And

3 then they came at 8.00 in the evening and took me in a Mercedes with black

4 glass, and they took me to a private house in Ferizaj, on the second

5 floor, and there there was a person - he was in plainclothes, a young lad

6 about 35 - and he questioned me. They had information that I had ties

7 with the Serbs. And they started interrogating me, and for three days --

8 and they didn't -- they didn't harass me. They gave me bread and they

9 gave me a carton of Marlboro cigarettes, and nobody touched me.

10 Q. Were you released after that?

11 A. After three days, I was taken by car again, and they took me back

12 to my uncle's, and they gave me a document with the stamp of the KLA and

13 said that, "You are free and you don't have any problems with us, you can

14 go out freely, but be careful because word has got about that you were

15 mixed up in this business."

16 Q. Were you detained again by the KLA after that occasion?

17 A. After this incident, a week later or maybe two, I can't be sure,

18 they took me again, but these were men in KLA uniforms and masks. But

19 they weren't really KLA members. They were merely a gang. And they put

20 themselves -- they gave themselves out as KLA members. And they took me

21 to a village and held me for a very long time and mistreated me. But

22 their business was a different one which I wouldn't be able to understand

23 myself. These were not members of the KLA, they were merely doing things

24 in the name of the KLA, pretending. And the real KLA that took me the

25 first time didn't bother me. They -- they didn't mistreat me at all.

Page 5570

1 Q. Witness, how do you know they were merely a group and not KLA?

2 A. I could understand this because the KLA before, they came and they

3 wanted information. But the other group -- but the other group was asking

4 me about other problems which I'd had beforehand because of my wife and

5 other problems of this kind. This was a different business at all. This

6 was not the real KLA, they were just pretending to be the KLA. A lot of

7 things -- a lot of people did things before the war and after the war,

8 saying they were the KLA, looting and doing acts of misdeeds of various

9 kinds.

10 Q. Witness, did you look for protection with NATO?

11 A. Yes. I went to NATO and asked -- and went -- I went to the NATO

12 commander, but they said that they could not do anything for a single

13 person. And they said they could guard my house, but I didn't agree to

14 this. And that was the end of this matter. And they told me to go to

15 Serbia along with the Serbian refugees who were going in that direction.

16 But I didn't agree to this either, and I decided to go back to my own

17 home, and that's what I did.

18 Q. Were you at some point advised to contact the Red Cross?

19 A. Yes. And what happened then?

20 A. I contacted the Red Cross, and from there I went to Macedonia as a

21 refugee.

22 Q. Thank you, Witness.

23 MS. ROMANO: No further questions, Your Honours.

24 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

25 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Page 5571

1 Q. [Interpretation] You have the status of protected witness; right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And what does that protection consist of? What form does the

4 protection take?

5 A. I don't understand the question. Please repeat it.

6 Q. I said, what does that protection consist of, the protection that

7 you say you have been given? Where is the protection?

8 JUDGE MAY: Do you understand the question?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't understand the question.

10 JUDGE MAY: You'll have to reclarify it, Mr. Milosevic.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Well, let me make it even clearer: What you have been provided in

13 the form of protection as you are a protected witness? What protection

14 has been given you?

15 JUDGE MAY: We know what the protection is because the order has

16 been made. It's not a matter for the witness.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's -- there's no real need to

18 protect me because I came here of my own free will. I can look after

19 myself. I have come here to speak out, myself, and to point out the

20 Serbian criminals who did these things, that's why I came here. I don't

21 need any protection, I can look after myself. Because I didn't do these

22 things, other people did, as I said before. Because for these reasons, I

23 have been outlawed by my family, by my neighbours, by my friends, and my

24 entire society, and that's why I have come here to tell the truth rather

25 than rumours. And I've come here to dispel these rumours. That's why.

Page 5572

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, all right. Now I'm not quite

2 clear, Mr. May, in view of the fact that this witness of yours says that

3 he doesn't need any protective measures, any protection, why is he then

4 boxed in with this screen --

5 JUDGE MAY: He's been ordered to have the protection. Now, go on

6 with some other questions.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. You said at the beginning of your statement that nothing has been

9 promised you in connection with your providing testimony. Is that

10 correct?

11 A. I don't want to answer questions of this kind. I said before why

12 I have come.

13 Q. Well, it is your duty to answer that question regardless of

14 whether you wish to do so or not.

15 A. Could you repeat the question, please?

16 JUDGE MAY: Just repeat the question so he can hear it.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Are you saying that to the

18 interpreters or to me?

19 JUDGE MAY: To you, Mr. Milosevic.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. You said at the beginning of your testimony that nothing had been

22 promised you. Is that correct?

23 A. I didn't ask anything from them, but they promised me such a thing

24 and -- and I was offered security by the Court as a witness.

25 Q. All right. And what were those certain things? You said "such a

Page 5573

1 thing," that you were promised such a thing or certain things. Which

2 things?

3 A. They promised me -- didn't ask anything, but -- but I've come of

4 my own free will, but the Court offered me.

5 Q. All right. What?

6 A. I have no further comment on these questions.

7 JUDGE MAY: No, the question is this: Besides the security which

8 you've been offered if you gave evidence, has anybody offered you anything

9 else; money, anything of that sort?

10 A. No money. Well, they gave me cigarettes, and they -- a place to

11 sleep and food.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. And where were you offered a place to sleep, food and all the

14 rest? In which place, where?

15 JUDGE MAY: That is not a question which he has to answer. It's

16 normal for the witnesses here to be offered somewhere to sleep, but where

17 they sleep is not a matter for the Court.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. I'm not talking about The Hague. I mean outside The Hague, where

20 you are located at present.

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 Q. You said that you were promised some things, and it says here in

25 the transcript what you said a moment ago. Now, could you be so kind as

Page 5574

1 to enumerate what things were offered you exactly.

2 JUDGE MAY: He's dealt with that. He said he was --

3 Were you offered anything else?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. They offered me nothing. I

5 said before. Food, lodging, money for cigarettes, nothing else. And

6 security.

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 house. I have my own family. Nobody gave me a house. And I've never

13 heard of anybody being given a house either.

14 JUDGE MAY: The name of the town can be redacted.

15 Witness K5, don't mention the town again unless it's necessary.

16 MS. ROMANO: Your Honour, and I think the accused has to be made

17 aware that there are areas that he cannot touch in -- because of security

18 of this witness and the protection.

19 JUDGE MAY: If he wants to ask any questions which might identify

20 the witness, then we should go into closed session. So anything where he

21 lives, anything of that sort, will be done in closed session.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I want to hear from the

23 witness what he's going to say in response to my questions. I'm not

24 interested in his -- where he lives, his place. I don't -- I'm not

25 interested in identifying him either, because he doesn't deserve being

Page 5575

1 identified. He wrote himself in his statement that he was a thief, that

2 he was a drunkard and a police informant, that he is a criminal in fact.

3 JUDGE MAY: Don't let's go over this again. Now, if you've got

4 any questions which identify him or might identify him, they're to be

5 asked in closed session. But let's move on. I think we've probably gone

6 over this topic enough. If you want to put anything about his character

7 that's in his statement, of course you can put it to him.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, all of that is in his

9 statement, but we'll come to that. It doesn't matter.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Explain to me, please, how you got yourself into the situation of

12 giving statements to the investigators. How did you come to give

13 statements to the investigators?

14 A. I said before I came here of my own accord. I wasn't forced to

15 come here by anybody. I came here of my own accord from another country.

16 JUDGE MAY: No. The question was: How did you come to give a

17 statement to the investigators in the first place?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said before, I gave this

19 statement myself. I came to the Tribunal myself, and I asked myself.

20 JUDGE MAY: No. Earlier than that. You made a statement in

21 October 2000.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23 JUDGE MAY: Now, just help us with this: How did you come to make

24 the statement? Did somebody get in touch with you or did you get in touch

25 with somebody? How did it come about?

Page 5576

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I contacted them myself. And the

2 Red Cross was present too. And we went to a place - I don't want to

3 mention the name of the town - and then I reported there myself and gave

4 them some information.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. When you gave the statement, I assume that this is no secret

7 because we can conclude that from your statement, you were in Macedonia;

8 is that right? You were in a refugee camp there; right?

9 A. Yes. I was a refugee in a camp in Macedonia.

10 Q. That means that through the Red Cross, which was in the camp, you

11 came into contact with the investigators. Can we conclude that?

12 A. Yes, that's how it was. I went with the Red Cross, and I reported

13 to The Hague Tribunal there.

14 Q. And John Zdrilic, the investigator, had talks with you; is that

15 right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did he conduct the interviews in Macedonia or somewhere else?

18 A. In Macedonia.

19 Q. In your statement, it says that the KLA deprived of their --

20 killed many Albanians who were in any way loyal to the Serb authorities

21 during the war and afterwards. Is that correct?

22 A. I don't know, I wasn't there, but I have heard from people. I

23 don't know who they killed, but I've heard this from people.

24 Q. Who did you hear that from?

25 A. From people. Simply from people.

Page 5577

1 Q. You heard that from people. From your neighbours or from your

2 friends or did you hear it when you were in Macedonia in the refugee camp

3 perhaps?

4 A. I heard in the camp. I heard from people.

5 Q. Were there many people with you in that refugee camp?

6 A. Yes. There were a lot of people.

7 Q. And in your statement, you say quite specifically the names and

8 surnames of many Albanians, your compatriots who allegedly were police

9 informants; is that right? Are those names correct?

10 A. I don't know what names you mean here.

11 Q. Well, the names that you state in your statement. I'll read them

12 out later on, or I can do it now, if you want me to. Now, all these names

13 you quoted, are they all the names or do you have more to give?

14 A. I don't know who killed them. I don't know who killed them. I

15 said I've heard this. I have never seen these things, but I've heard that

16 they killed people. I heard that they killed people, but I don't know

17 whether it's true or not myself. I have no way of knowing because I

18 didn't see this. I have told you the things that I have said, and I've

19 told you the things that I have heard.

20 Q. And you claim that you are afraid of KLA retaliation or that of

21 some other Albanians. Why is that so? You are afraid that they will get

22 their own back. That is what you say in your statement on page 2, in

23 paragraph 2. Now, why is that so?

24 A. I wasn't afraid of the KLA because the KLA took me and held me for

25 three days. I told you before. I have been frightened of other people

Page 5578

1 who have said that this person has done such-and-such a thing. But as I

2 said, I didn't do these things. These things were done by other people.

3 They were done by the Serbian police. I didn't do them. That's why I've

4 come here to tell the truth, to say what I have done and what I haven't

5 done. I'm not frightened of anybody. I'm not frightened of the KLA or

6 anybody else, and I've come myself to tell the truth.

7 Q. Please. It says in paragraph 2, at the beginning of your

8 statement -- there is the following sentence which you say is your own

9 sentence, as you put: "I cannot live in Urosevac because I am afraid of

10 the KLA's revenge or that of other Albanians."

11 So as an Albanian, you explained that you cannot live in Urosevac

12 because you are afraid that the KLA will take their revenge, as will

13 perhaps other Albanians. Now you say something else. Will you explain to

14 us --

15 JUDGE MAY: No --

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. -- what it is.

18 JUDGE MAY: In his witness statement, which is dated October 2000,

19 he says that. We're now in 2002.

20 Is it right, Mr. K5, that you were afraid, at one stage, of

21 reprisals from them?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not by -- from the KLA. Before, I

23 was afraid, as I mentioned before. I was scared of other people who had

24 spread rumours that I had been working for the Black Hand, because the KLA

25 took me, detained me, and they held me for three days, and if they had

Page 5579

1 wanted to kill me, they would have done. But they didn't want to kill me

2 because they knew who I was.

3 JUDGE MAY: Very well. It's --

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They took me and then released me.

5 JUDGE MAY: It's past the time for an adjournment. We will

6 adjourn now.

7 Yes. We will adjourn now for 20 minutes.

8 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

9 --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.

10 [Private session]

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5580

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 [Open session]

24 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 5581

1 Q. Is it correct that on the 24th of April, 1992, the municipal court

2 in Urosevac sentenced you to four months in prison, according to Article

3 165, on charges on theft, that is 11/90, dated the 24th of April, 1992.

4 Is that correct?

5 A. No, that's not true.

6 Q. All right. I mean, there are court documents about this, but you

7 claim that this is not correct; right?

8 And is it correct that on the 9th of May, 1994, that is K604/92,

9 the municipal court in Urosevac sentenced you to three months in prison,

10 again on the basis of Article 165, paragraph 1 of the Criminal Code of

11 Serbia, again for robbery? Is that correct?

12 A. No, that's not correct either.

13 Q. All right. And is it correct that on the 5th of March, 1997, that

14 is K1161/92, the municipal court in Urosevac sentenced you to three months

15 in prison on the basis of Article 174/19 in relation to Article 19 for

16 stealing a motor vehicle? Is that correct or not?

17 A. No, that's not correct either, 1997.

18 Q. And were you accused of grave robbery in 1997, that is 15588/87,

19 when you were accused of grave robbery, Article 165, paragraph 3 of the

20 Criminal Code?

21 A. No, that's not true either. These are false accusations.

22 Q. All right. All right. And in 1989, number 278/89, Article 135 of

23 the Criminal Code of Kosovo in 1989, were you accused of that or not? Do

24 you know anything about that?

25 A. No, I don't know anything about that.

Page 5582

1 Q. All right. Also -- also, there are charges that were brought

2 against you, ten at that, for grave robbery, and they are recorded under

3 number 519853821, 620, 613, 553, and 535, all in 1990, again according to

4 Article 165 for grave robbery and also Article 173 for stealing a motor

5 vehicle.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please slow down.

7 JUDGE MAY: You're being asked to slow down.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. So for these ten offences of grave robbery and one offence of

10 stealing a vehicle, do you know about the charges that were brought

11 against you with regard to these particular offences?

12 A. I don't know about the accusations. I only know that Mitic and

13 Crni burnt down the other buildings. I know that the KLA had invitation

14 [as interpreted] about that.

15 JUDGE MAY: No. Don't go off the point, please, Witness K5.

16 You're just being asked about these allegations.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As to the accusations, they're not

18 true.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. All right. And were you accused -- there is a criminal report

21 filed against you, number 8 from 1991, again related to Article 165, again

22 grave robbery, the ten grave robberies related to 1990, and in 1991 there

23 was also a grave robbery. Charges were pressed against you for that. Yes

24 or no. Just say yes or no.

25 A. No.

Page 5583

1 Q. In 1991, again grave robbery and breaking into premises, again

2 143/ -- 434/91. That is the number of the criminal file. Do you know

3 about that?

4 A. From 1990 onwards, as I said earlier, I worked for Mitic. So I

5 don't know anything about that. I don't know what you're talking about.

6 Q. Do you know anything about the criminal reports that were filed

7 against you for grave robbery; 199, 286, 317, 334, 335, 390, 397, 415,

8 416, all of this dated 1991, again according to Article 166, that is again

9 grave robbery, and also Article 174, that's a vehicle yet again. Do you

10 know anything about this?

11 A. No, I don't.

12 Q. You don't know about that either?

13 A. No.

14 Q. And do you remember that you also stole from a motor vehicle.

15 That is 17 -- 781/91. Do you know about that? Yes or no.

16 A. No. No. I had -- I had my own motor vehicle at home. I had a

17 car. I didn't need to steal one.

18 Q. 155/92, according to Article 165, again grave robbery. Do you

19 know about that? This was in 1992.

20 A. No, I don't know anything about that.

21 Q. You don't know about that either. And what about 683, also in

22 1992, according to Article 174 in relation to Article 19 of the Criminal

23 Code; do you know anything about that?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Do you know about the decision of the municipal prosecutor's

Page 5584

1 office?

2 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness [sic] please read the numbers

3 out slowly.

4 A. No.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Charges were brought against you.

7 A. No, I don't know.

8 Q. And do you know of grave bodily injury from 1993? That is number

9 22, dated 1993. Charges were brought against you on account of that as

10 well.

11 A. I wasn't found guilty of that at all. They know who it was. But

12 I was -- I defended myself, and I was found not guilty.

13 Q. All right. All right. Is that when you say that you were in

14 prison for nine months? In your statement, you say that you were in

15 prison for nine months and then you were set free after that. That's what

16 you said. That's what you claimed.

17 A. Yes. In 1995, I was nine months -- spent nine months in prison,

18 but that was -- Azem Haliti and Bajgora were involved.

19 Q. So it's not that grave bodily injury. It is later. All right.

20 According to Article 220, paragraph 1, in 1993 also. Do you know anything

21 about that? Is that incorrect as well?

22 A. No, that's not right.

23 Q. All right. Tell me, in 1995, that is number 341, and it's

24 according to Article 168 of the Criminal Code of Serbia, robbery again.

25 Do you know anything about that? Is that incorrect as well?

Page 5585

1 A. I don't know. I was working for Mitic at the time. Everything I

2 did was Mitic's orders.

3 Q. I am asking you whether it is correct that you carried out these

4 criminal offences, whether you committed them or not.

5 A. I'm telling you that I was working for -- under the orders of

6 Mitic, not on my own.

7 Q. All right. We'll get to that as well. Do you remember the

8 criminal report that was filed against you according to Article 54,

9 paragraph 2, that is to say, attack upon body and life. That is criminal

10 report number 585 from 1995 -- 1997.

11 A. No.

12 Q. You don't know. So all these criminal offences that I listed to

13 you from 1990 onwards, all the way up to, as far as I can see here, until

14 1997, you don't know anything about this. All of this is incorrect. Is

15 that your assertion?

16 A. I said earlier that from 1990 onwards, I was under the direction

17 of Avdi and under the direction of Mitic, and that was when these things

18 were -- these events took place and were committed.

19 Q. You did not answer my question. Why do you fear KLA revenge or

20 revenge from other Albanians? That's what I asked you about.

21 JUDGE MAY: He has answered that question.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't afraid --

23 JUDGE MAY: There's no need to answer.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please. He said he was not afraid

25 of the KLA, because obviously he had things sorted out with him.

Page 5586

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Who are these other Albanians that you are afraid of? You haven't

3 answered that part.

4 A. I wasn't afraid of the KLA. As I said, it was not a question of

5 fear. For all the -- all the things that I was involved in and all the

6 things I was accused of, rumours could spread among the population, among

7 the people of Ferizaj. They would be -- I would be treated as an outlaw

8 in society. I wasn't afraid of the KLA itself or of specific Albanians

9 but of public opinion, that's why. I have come here to tell the truth, to

10 tell exactly who did what. This is justice, to come here and tell before

11 justice what happened. There were Serbian police and inspectors who gave

12 me their orders, as I said.

13 Q. All right. You've said that. That is your statement.

14 Tell me, now, on the basis of what did these rumours start

15 circulating around Urosevac that, with other people, you were killing

16 people for money?

17 A. But they were the police who instigated such rumours. The police

18 themselves were spreading rumours. They said that I had done such things

19 to accuse the -- so that the Albanians would take revenge. They said that

20 I had killed people for money, but that's not true. I didn't kill anyone

21 for money, for money or without money. They were killing people simply

22 because they were Albanians, it wasn't a question of money. There were

23 civilians being killed; women and children, old people.

24 Q. All right. You described some cases that you took part in. Do

25 you claim that you did not take part in a single killing?

Page 5587

1 A. No, I didn't take part in any killing. I accompanied them, but my

2 hands were never covered in blood. I accompanied Mitic, but I never took

3 part myself in the killings, but I knew who did do the killings.

4 Q. All right. Tell me, you were present when these killings took

5 place, these murders that you say allegedly took place. So you were there

6 on the spot, you actually saw the murders? Did these murders take place

7 right in front of you?

8 A. No. I didn't see them myself. I heard of the order -- about the

9 orders, but I didn't see the event taking place with my own eyes. For

10 example, in Nerodime, when we were in the village of Nerodime --

11 Q. Tell me, did you see at least one murder, one killing?

12 A. When we went on the Pleshina Street to mine the Gimi motel, I saw

13 Dimitri there with a silencer on his gun, and there were two people, one

14 in front of us and one ten metres behind us in a car, and he was shot.

15 Q. That's what you saw with your very own eyes. What kind of rifle

16 is this with a silencer?

17 A. What kind of rifle, you mean? It was an automatic weapon. It was

18 black. The colour was black. And there were other rifles. There was a

19 M45.

20 Q. I am asking you about this rifle with the silencer. What kind of

21 a rifle was that?

22 A. I don't know exactly -- the exact mark because I didn't have it in

23 my hands. I just heard it. Mitic had given me one weapon, and if I were

24 to see a picture of it, I would recognise it, but I don't know the name of

25 the mark, the brand mark of it.

Page 5588

1 Q. Is that the weapon that you recognised over here when you were

2 pointing out a rifle, saying that they were armed with that type of

3 weapon? Is that it?

4 A. No, no. That's a different thing. That's -- these were automatic

5 weapons but with silencers. They were black coloured.

6 Q. And you don't know which type this was?

7 A. No. I don't know. What I don't know, I don't know. I can't lie

8 and tell you things I don't know. If you'd show me a picture, I can tell

9 you which it is.

10 Q. All right. All right. You say no. Was it similar to the one you

11 pointed out? Was it that size, bigger, smaller?

12 A. Smaller. Shorter.

13 Q. All right. So is this one murder that you saw with your very own

14 eyes; is that right?

15 A. No, two murders. In the Pleshina Street. There were two people.

16 Two people were killed; one in front of us and one ten metres behind us,

17 another person.

18 Q. Who killed them?

19 A. The Serb police, Dimitri of the Serbs. He was a policeman at the

20 police station in Ferizaj.

21 Q. All right. On page 2 of your statement, in paragraph 3, you say

22 that you were expelled from the school of the interior in Vucitrn because

23 you did not attend classes and because of some other things. When did

24 that happen?

25 A. That took place in 1994, 1995. I was at the police academy in

Page 5589

1 Vucitrn, police school, but I wasn't a good student. It was 1984, 1985, I

2 think, and I wasn't good at shooting, as good as the other students. One

3 of them was a Serb from Decan there. And we were thrown out of the

4 school.

5 Q. All right. How old were you in 1984?

6 A. I was 19, 20. About 20.

7 Q. When were you born? What year?

8 A. I was born in 1969, 1969.

9 Q. 1969. So in 1984, you were 15 years old. Isn't that right?

10 A. I don't remember.

11 Q. That's when they threw you out of school?

12 A. I don't really remember. And the year, the exact year, I don't

13 really remember. You have a lot of questions.

14 Q. Yes. What are these other things? You say they threw you out of

15 school because you did not attend classes and now you say you were not a

16 good student, et cetera, et cetera, and also on account of some other

17 things. What are the other things on account of which they threw you out

18 of school?

19 A. There weren't any other things. Well, just that I wasn't a very

20 good student. I didn't learn well, and I wasn't good in the exercises,

21 and so they expelled me from school. That's it.

22 Q. So there's no other thing?

23 A. No. No.

24 Q. Why did you write this down in your statement that there were

25 other things when there are no other things?

Page 5590

1 A. Well, one of the other things was that I didn't attend class

2 regularly and that I wasn't very good. I wasn't good at learning, and

3 that's why they expelled me. They all got together and had a meeting

4 and --

5 Q. All right. When did your father die? When did you father die?

6 A. My father died in 1993.

7 Q. He was a police inspector; right?

8 A. (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 JUDGE MAY: We'll go into private session while these questions go

17 on.

18 [Private session]

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5591













13 Pages 5591 to 5598 redacted - private session.













Page 5599

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 [Open session]

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. This man Avdi Musa, later on, as you say, was killed; is that

14 right?

15 A. He was killed.

16 Q. And who killed him?

17 A. He was killed because he upset a lot of people. Like the business

18 of my family. He was a criminal, and he really had it out for the

19 Albanians. He only wanted to cause trouble. He was a -- he was a rapist.

20 He was everything. And he upset somebody, and somebody killed him.

21 Q. All right. You say he was killed because he caused problems to

22 your family. Does that mean that you killed him or a member of your

23 family?

24 A. No, I didn't. I didn't kill him. I don't get my hands dirty in

25 things like that. He was killed by God. I didn't kill him. How would I

Page 5600

1 get mixed up in this sort of thing? Maybe the police killed him. Maybe

2 the Serbian police killed him because he knew a lot of things about the

3 Serbs. So they might have killed him. He killed a lot of Albanians.

4 Like Bajram --

5 JUDGE MAY: Witness K5 --

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was a collaborator with the

7 Serbs, and the Serbs may have killed him. That may be the way it was.

8 JUDGE MAY: Witness K5, despite the questions, could you keep your

9 answers as short as possible, and we'll get on more quickly that way.

10 Just concentrate, if you would, on answering the question.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Azem Haliti still lives in Urosevac, according to what you wrote

14 here. How is that possible when he worked for the police?

15 A. Azem Haliti was as a SUP inspector and now he's under house

16 arrest. But not because of the KLA. But he doesn't dare go out because

17 he mistreated people. He beat his own neighbours. He took in people, and

18 he took 2.000 or 3.000 marks in bribes just to issue passports. How can

19 he dare go out of his house? People are looking for him because he beat

20 their fathers and for taking 3.000 marks for a passport. And --

21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters request the witness repeat his

22 answer to the question.

23 JUDGE MAY: We'll go on from there. Let's move on.

24 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 5601

1 Q. In your statement, you claim, on page 3, paragraph 1, that you

2 started secretly working for the police already in 1992. Is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. When in 1992?

5 A. From 1990, not from 1990 -- not from 1992, from 1990.

6 Q. Well, which is it, what it says in your statement or are you

7 correcting your statement now?

8 A. I'm not correcting it. But when I -- as I said before, when Avdi

9 came and when I had problems, I started going to the police, and then, out

10 of need, I started doing this business, because raids on my house had

11 become frequent, and the police used to come to the house and raid it.

12 And how could I put up with this? People -- there were people inside, and

13 I was very upset, and people would come and ransack the house. And so I

14 went to the police. Ten policemen coming in, upsetting my brother's

15 children.

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So I had either to work for --

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. All right. It says here, at the beginning of page 3: "I started

21 to work for the police secretly sometime in 1992 or 1993." Is that right

22 or not?

23 JUDGE MAY: He's just answered that question.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

Page 5602

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. In that same paragraph, you state that one of your relatives was

3 friends with criminals, and in that way, you -- that is how you came to be

4 a police informant, in fact; is that correct?

5 A. Could you repeat that, please? Because I didn't understand that.

6 Q. Well, at the beginning of the paragraph, you say: "Some of the

7 local criminals would rally together and associate with one of my

8 relatives so that I was in a position to offer the police information

9 which could help them to effect certain arrests."

10 So you became an informant on the basis of the information that

11 you had at your disposal through this friend of yours who was friendly

12 with criminals, associated with criminals; is that right?

13 A. Yes, that's right.

14 Q. And then you go on to say: "I supplied them with information on

15 local drug dealers and thieves, and the police succeeded in carrying out

16 several good arrests on the basis of the information I supplied them

17 with." Is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. I'm not going to ask you what the name of that relative was. We'd

20 probably just be wasting our time if we had to go backed to closed session

21 again. But tell me this: When were criminal charges brought against you

22 for the first time? The first time in your life, when were criminal

23 charges brought to bear against you?

24 A. Charges were laid in 1995, when I was held in prison under

25 investigation for nine months in Prishtina. It was a frame-up devised by

Page 5603

1 Avdi, and I was beaten for three hours, and I lost consciousness three

2 times, to confess to a crime I didn't commit.

3 Q. All right. I'm not asking you that. So from 1990 onwards, the

4 criminal charges weren't brought against you. When was the last time they

5 were brought against you, though?

6 A. There were no charges against me, neither first ones nor last

7 ones, just those in 1995. And then there was a gun I had for

8 self-defence. I'm not a criminal.

9 Q. All right. When were these charges brought against you because of

10 this pistol then?

11 A. The pistol belonged to my father, and he had this gun with a

12 permit.

13 Q. And you carried it without a licence to do so, right?

14 A. I never carried the pistol at all. This is not true. I never

15 carried it. It was at home. It was hidden in my father's house. I

16 didn't have it on me. I had this pistol with a permit from Mitic.

17 Q. All right. You said it differently a moment ago, but let's move

18 on. On page 3, paragraph 2, you say that in 1995, you escaped to Germany,

19 using your brother's passport; is that right?

20 A. Yes. In that year, I escaped to Germany with my brother's

21 passport, and I didn't want to become a SUP informer, and --

22 Q. All right. Did you present yourself falsely to the German

23 authorities or did you tell them that -- your true name?

24 A. For the sake of my security, I presented myself in my brother's

25 name, as it was written in the passport, because I was scared of the

Page 5604

1 police.

2 Q. And you claim that you sought and received asylum in Germany; is

3 that right?

4 A. That's true. I asked for asylum, and I was accepted. And then I

5 returned from Germany because of family problems, because my brother was

6 beaten in the house, and Avdi and the Serbian police were raiding my house

7 every day, and so I returned home just so that there would be no games

8 played with my family.

9 Q. All right. How much time went by? How quickly did you return

10 from Germany? I gathered you were in Germany for a short space of time.

11 Is that right?

12 A. Six months. Six months.

13 Q. Six months later; right? Here you say you returned four months

14 later. Which is it?

15 A. After six months, I returned home.

16 Q. All right. And on the basis of what did you receive asylum in

17 Germany?

18 A. I got political asylum in Germany because I had problems with the

19 Serbian police. I asked for asylum. I also had a summons, being summoned

20 to the Ferizaj SUP, and on the basis of this, I was given asylum.

21 Q. All right. But the invitation was in your name; right? The

22 summons was in your name?

23 A. No. The summons was in my brother's name, because I had

24 registered my brother's name in Germany.

25 Q. So the passport and the summons were made out in your brother's

Page 5605

1 name, and the summons from the police, too, was in your brother's name and

2 so was the passport; right?

3 A. Yes. I told you there was a summons, and this younger brother and

4 myself and my cousin, and they came regularly to our house, both to my

5 elder brother and my younger brother. My entire family was summoned to

6 SUP.

7 Q. All right. That's not what I'm asking you. It was in your

8 brother's name that you received your passport and asylum there. And what

9 profession -- what problems did you have in Germany? What problems did

10 you have in Germany?

11 A. I didn't have any kind of problem in Germany. I returned of my

12 own free will. My problems were at home. I spoke with my mother on the

13 telephone. I said, "What's new?" And she told me that the police had

14 been here and had taken my brothers. They would come in the morning.

15 They would come in the evening. They used to go to my aunt, my father's

16 sister.

17 Q. All right. That's not what I asked you. You provided information

18 to the police about the local drug dealers and thieves. At least, that's

19 what you say in your statement. Is that correct?

20 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, if it's in the statement -- if it's in

21 the statement, you can ask him about it, but it may be that you'll want to

22 move on, because you've got two hours, which is the same time as the

23 Prosecution had to examine this witness, and you've had slightly more than

24 one of those two hours. So you've got another hour -- slightly under an

25 hour left.

Page 5606

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, first of all, the

2 Prosecution spent far more than two hours, if you count today's time and

3 the time spent in the -- on the last working day. And secondly, this

4 false witness has brought a statement which is 35 pages long. And if you

5 were to read it out loud, we would need at least another one and a half

6 hours to do so because it is densely typed.

7 JUDGE MAY: Let us get on with it now. I timed the Prosecution.

8 They had 55 minutes on Friday and one hour, six minutes today. That's two

9 hours. Now, you've got slightly under an hour left.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I would need one and a half

11 hours to read out loud his statement that covers 35 pages.

12 JUDGE MAY: Cover the most important parts and move on.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] From all parts of the statement, you

14 can see that he is a false witness. There is no more important part or

15 most important parts.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Therefore, it says in the statement, and that's why we're wasting

18 time, is that: "I supplied information pertaining to local drug dealers

19 and thieves," and that's what I was asking you about. And you said that

20 the police carried out some good arrests on the basis of that information.

21 Now, my question to you is the following: Did you know when a

22 certain quantity of drugs would be brought in and distributed and who it

23 would be distributed to and when? Does that mean that you knew all that?

24 A. I know that they would -- they discovered some thieves and drug

25 dealers, but how many, I don't know.

Page 5607

1 Q. Well, did you have information of that kind? So you supplied them

2 with information on the basis of facts they knew, when drugs were coming

3 in. Did you deal in drug trafficking yourself?

4 A. No. I haven't. I never was involved in it. It was not my

5 profession. There was nobody in my family involved in that sort of thing.

6 But I did give information about drugs, as I said before, but this was --

7 this was a small quantity, and it was mainly about robbery.

8 Q. All right. Tell me this: Now, you yourself said you were in

9 prison. Which crime were you accused of? Was it robbery or infliction of

10 grievous bodily harm or participation in brawls and beatings? What was

11 the crime that you were imprisoned for?

12 A. What are you talking about? Are you talking about 1995?

13 Q. I'm talking about what you're talking about when you say that you

14 were in prison. What crime were you in prison for? Were you accused of

15 robbery, grievous bodily harm, beatings, or what?

16 A. This was in 1995. I was accused in 1995 of supposedly -- but this

17 was a frame-up. I was accused of beating up somebody called Hajrush from

18 the village of Varrosh who was a collaborator with Avdi Musa, and I

19 supposedly stole 500 marks from him. But this was not true.

20 I got hold of him myself in the corridor when he got out to the

21 toilet, and I found them talking together and in their very -- in front of

22 them, I told them that they were lying.

23 Q. Let's not waste time, please. I'm asking you what crime you were

24 accused of having committed. I'm not asking you what you actually did but

25 what crime were you accused of, because as you say, you spent nine months

Page 5608

1 in prison. On what grounds? Why were you in prison? I suppose you would

2 know that.

3 A. It was a frame-up. It was nothing. I did nothing. I was

4 defending myself.

5 JUDGE MAY: What he said -- what he said was that he was accused

6 of beating up this man Hajrush.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Very well.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. You say you were in prison for nine months. Tell me this, please:

10 How do people from the police force that had you as an informant were not

11 able to help you, especially, as you said, none of this was your fault?

12 So how come they weren't able to help you if you were an informant of

13 theirs?

14 A. They couldn't help me because they were doing this to me myself.

15 They -- what can I say? They wanted -- they wanted to do it because they

16 didn't like my father. And then there was my father. And then Avdi --

17 Avdi's idea was merely to destroy my entire family, because my father was

18 against the Serbs. He wasn't just against them. It was like in 1991. He

19 helped the people.

20 Q. All right. Let's not go further than that. You explained that

21 you were necessary to the police, isn't that right, because you worked as

22 their informant. And as they needed you, how come they kept you in prison

23 for nine months? Did they need you or didn't they?

24 A. When I didn't have any information, they didn't need me, and they

25 put me in prison. When I did have information, they didn't put me in

Page 5609

1 prison. And when I sent them information, then they gave me cigarettes,

2 money.

3 Q. All right. Let's move on. Let's move on. We've heard that about

4 the cigarettes, that bit.

5 Now, you got to know somebody nicknamed Crni who was in prison

6 because of armed robbery, as you say; is that correct?

7 A. Yes, that's correct. He was accused of selling arms to someone

8 from Ruga [phoen] from Azem Hajdini Street, with the name Hajdin, and for

9 this reason, he was in prison.

10 Q. All right. Not to get into specifics, but as it says in your

11 statement, he was in prison for armed robbery. And then you say on page

12 3, paragraph 5, that before that, for four years, he was in a correction

13 centre in Lipjan; is that right? Before that, he spent four years in a

14 correction centre in Lipjan; right? Is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And this was in 1995, right, when you were in prison with him?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And four years before that, he spent the whole time in Lipjan in a

19 correction centre; right? And then you go on to say that, before that, he

20 was in the Arkan's Tigers, he was a member of Arkan's Tigers. Now, how

21 can he be in any unit if in 1995 he was in prison with you and had spent

22 the previous four years in the correction centre in Lipjan?

23 JUDGE MAY: The witness --

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Four years -- when he was young, he

25 spent those four years in Lipjan, because he was in the detention centre

Page 5610

1 for juvenile delinquents in Lipjan.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 A. That was our business. We had a bit of money.

10 Q. Well, I'm asking you where the money came from. Where did you get

11 the money from? I saw the kind of work you did, so where did you get the

12 money to open a restaurant?

13 A. (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 Q. You claim that Mitic gave you cigarettes and that he gave you 100

17 Deutschmarks each. That is too little money to open a restaurant. Where

18 did you get the rest of the money from?

19 A. Well, we rented this restaurant, and we gave it -- the rent was

20 200 marks, and we paid it in instalments, and we just had enough to start

21 up business.

22 Q. Oh. For a rent that amounted to 200 Deutschmarks, you had a

23 restaurant. All right, let's move on.

24 In paragraph 4 of page 14, you say that Dejan and you or, rather,

25 Crni and you, as you had put it, sold stolen goods to a man called Srecko

Page 5611

1 from Nis. Is that right?

2 A. Yes. These were the things of Crni. They were the things that

3 were stolen.

4 Q. Well, but you say that the two of you were selling stolen goods.

5 Now, was theft your source of income? Just give me a yes or no answer.

6 A. I went with them, and I escorted them, but the things belonged to

7 him, not to me. He had stolen them.

8 Q. You are trying to say that the fact that you sold stolen goods is

9 something that you wrote in your statement but that's not true, that he

10 was the one who was selling stolen goods and that you were just his

11 friend; are you trying to say that?

12 A. Well, I didn't steal anything. I just accompanied Crni, and he

13 sold the goods. He sold computers and other stuff. I don't know.

14 Q. This is what you say in paragraph 3, towards the end, on page 14,

15 you say: "I stole a TV set and a cassette player and a video recorder."

16 And then later on, in the next paragraph, you say: "Dejan and I --" that

17 is to say Dejan and you -- "took care of a travel agency." And then in

18 the next sentence: "One night we broke into a store and Dejan stole a fax

19 machine and mobile telephone." And then you say, "Srecko lived in Nis and

20 he bought stolen goods from us and sold them further on in Serbia." And

21 then in the next paragraph, you say that you went to a travel agency by

22 the bus station. "We stole 100 Deutschmarks, five passports, and two

23 telephones." And then in the next paragraph, you came to yet another

24 travel agency by the Serb Orthodox church, and so on and so forth. And

25 then you say that you were stealing, and now you're saying that you were

Page 5612

1 not stealing. I mean, are you a thief or are you not a thief?

2 A. That wasn't robbery in that sense, because it was under the

3 command of the police -- under the order of the police commander. These

4 stores had been financed by the KLA, so we were supposed to go to those

5 stores and vandalise them and destroy everything because they belonged to

6 the Albanians. It wasn't a question of thievery, it was a question of

7 destroying the Albanian shops. That's what it was about.

8 Q. And the money that you stole from those shops, you destroyed that

9 money as well; right?

10 A. I don't know what he did. He destroyed things. He burnt the

11 shops. He destroyed, vandalised the shops. That was the order, just to

12 destroy them. It wasn't to steal.

13 Q. All right. Did you destroy money as well? Did you sell these

14 destroyed goods to Srecko in Nis?

15 A. What I said before was that Crni took the stuff and sold it, sold

16 the goods. I didn't take anything. I was only accompanying him, and he

17 did the job.

18 Q. All right. All right. But you wrote in your statement what you

19 did.

20 Tell me, please, did you become a police informer in order to make

21 it easier for yourself to be involved in your own crime? Yes or no.

22 Just yes or no.

23 A. I did it so that they wouldn't mistreat me, beat me up, because

24 they were -- they had been beating me, sometimes three times a day, every

25 day. They were really beating me.

Page 5613

1 Q. All right. Please. We haven't got much time. Many times in your

2 statement you mention that you were drinking alcohol all the time; isn't

3 that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Well, for a person who was almost constantly under the influence

6 of alcohol, you have a very good memory, don't you?

7 JUDGE MAY: You can deal with the question in this way: Did the

8 alcohol affect your memory of these events?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't drink very much alcohol.

10 Maybe a glass, couple of glasses. I wasn't an alcoholic. I drank

11 socially.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. All right. But a while ago, you said that you drank a lot, and

14 now you say that you didn't. But this is in line with the course of your

15 statement.

16 JUDGE MAY: I don't recollect him saying he drank a lot. I may be

17 wrong about that. Yes. Let's go on.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. All right. You say that you got orders to burn buses, to burn a

20 shop, et cetera, and that the chief of police gave you these orders and

21 that he had a team that was ready and that they would always establish

22 that the fire was due to faulty installations in the bus, in the shop

23 concerned, et cetera, et cetera; is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, if his wish was, as you claim, to have this ascribed to KLA

Page 5614

1 operation, why, then, did he have a team that would say that the

2 installations were faulty? Wasn't it logical then for the team to say

3 that this was done by the KLA, not that it was due to faulty

4 installations?

5 A. For the stores, they said it was the electrical installations,

6 whereas the buses, they said that emblems and writing of the KLA were

7 found so that they could say that the KLA did it. Whereas for the shops

8 it was the electrical installations. The buses, it was the emblems of the

9 KLA were found near the buses.

10 Q. I'm not asking you about the letter. The letter is a different

11 thing. I'm not asking you about the letter. You also said in connection

12 with the buses that the police team that was prepared by your

13 instructions-giver said what they said, and you said the same thing about

14 the buses too. You also referred to faulty installations. So -- all

15 right. This is quite clear.

16 And as for this, whether he drank constantly, I'm just going to

17 mention to you what he said in the statement. Thirty-five pages long the

18 statement is.

19 On page 8, paragraph 2, he says: "For a while, the three of us

20 took -- stayed there and ate and drank." And then, "I was a bit drunk

21 that night because Dragan kept paying drinks for me."

22 Page 9, paragraph 4: "At 10.00, I went to Nacional and we had

23 beer."

24 And then page 9, paragraph 7: "So we stayed there, drinking."

25 The same night, paragraph 8 on page 9: "We went to our restaurant. We

Page 5615

1 had a couple of drinks each and then we left."

2 And then page 10, paragraph 4: "We went there and then we watched

3 TV and drank." Page 11 --

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, he's -- you've made the point, and he's

5 given his explanation. Now, let's move on.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Page 13, paragraph 4: "As a matter of fact, they saw us one night

8 as we were returning home, drunk." Et cetera, et cetera. There's not a

9 single page on which you do not mention that you were drinking alcohol and

10 that you were drunk. So are you an alcoholic?

11 JUDGE MAY: He's dealt with that. He's given his explanation.

12 There's no need for it to be repeated.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did drink, but I was drinking

14 with the Serb police.

15 JUDGE MAY: There is no need for it to be repeated. Let's move

16 on.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. As for the installations, you wrote here quite nicely, that is

19 9/4, 10/11, 12, et cetera, "due to faulty installations." That's what you

20 wrote here. It's on page 9 the fourth paragraph, on page 10 the third

21 paragraph, on page 11 the first paragraph. So you always say that, upon

22 police instructions, you --

23 JUDGE MAY: Let us -- let us -- just one moment. There's an

24 objection, and then we'll deal with this question.

25 Yes, Ms. Romano.

Page 5616

1 MS. ROMANO: (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Yes. We'll redact it.

6 The point -- the point that was being made, Witness K5, is this:

7 If it was the purpose to ascribe these various crimes to the KLA, if that

8 was the purpose of the police, can you assist us as to why, when

9 investigations were carried out, they were reported as accidents?

10 A. Well, the stores were reported as accidents. For example, in

11 Manastirc, several times the crimes were -- were attributed to the KLA.

12 And in the village of Nerodime, there were two grenades. And in Klina,

13 they said that the KLA had done it because the KLA had that type of arms,

14 the Chinese weapons. And at Manastirc, it was done that way when the

15 emblems of the KLA were left there, in Albanian. And they told the

16 journalists in Shtime e Re to come out and speak Albanian -- or people to

17 come out and rob the journalists who were there, speaking Albanian. But

18 that wasn't done.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. All right. As for the buses, you say that you did not say that it

21 was a question of installations.

22 A. No, not for the buses.

23 Q. Oh. I didn't have any interpretation. So not for the buses.

24 Then I'm going to read a sentence out to you. Page 9, paragraph 3: "When

25 the police carried out an on-site investigation, Mitic's men, it was

Page 5617

1 concluded that the fire was due to faulty installations on the bus."

2 That's what it says in your statement, but now you do not recall what the

3 statement says and what your claim is. So you informed on the Albanians.

4 You were saying who was assisting the KLA, who was in the KLA, who was

5 cooperating with the KLA. Am I right or am I not right?

6 A. No. That's not what I said. I didn't say who was a member of the

7 KLA or not.

8 Q. All right. All right. But that's what you were saying just

9 awhile ago. Let's not waste time. On page 5 of your statement -- I'm

10 going on. I am going on.

11 You say here, on the last paragraph on page 5: "I identified

12 several cafes and restaurants in Urosevac. I want --"

13 THE INTERPRETER: The accused is reading this too fast for the

14 interpreters.

15 JUDGE MAY: You'll have to read more slowly, Mr. Milosevic.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. It says here: "I identified several restaurants" as you said

18 that, "It was I who identified persons from pictures who worked for the

19 KLA, who did not work for the KLA." So you keep using the first person

20 singular all the time. Why did you want that? Why did you want that? "I

21 want a bomb to be thrown into this cafe." "I want a bomb to be thrown at

22 the Casablanca Cafe." Why did you want that?

23 A. I didn't want it. It was Mitic who had the list of Albanian

24 coffeeshops that we were supposed to bomb.

25 Q. That's clear, but I asked you about what you wrote here, because

Page 5618

1 you say, "I want this," "I want that." Did you perhaps throw these bombs

2 into the cafes owned by persons from whom you were taking racket money?

3 And then you threw bombs into their cafes when they didn't want to pay up.

4 Is that right or is that not right?

5 A. No, that's not right.


7 MS. ROMANO: Your Honour, just one matter. I don't want to -- the

8 part of the paragraph should be misled. I think that it's very clear when

9 he says, "I want to throw it," "I want to do that," he's mentioned the

10 list. Maybe it is a translation problem, but what he says is, "The list

11 is as follows," and then he mentioned all the list. That is page 6 of the

12 statement.

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes, I have it. It's not very clear. In any event,

14 the witness has given his answer to the allegation.

15 Yes.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Tell us, when was this meeting held in March when you were

18 allegedly with Crni, Mitic, and, as you call him, Bogic Bogi? When you

19 all went to Pristina together. These are pages 4, 5, 6 of your statement.

20 On which date was this?

21 A. I don't know the exact date, but it was in 1998 when we went to

22 Pristina.

23 Q. Oh, it was in 1998 that you went to Pristina. All right. You

24 know the year. And can you give at least one precise date concerning any

25 one of the events that you have been describing?

Page 5619

1 A. I can't tell you any dates, no. I wasn't interested in noting

2 down dates at the time.

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes. It's now time for --

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

5 JUDGE MAY: It's now time for the adjournment. It's 12.15. We

6 will adjourn for 20 minutes.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] How much time do I have left?

8 JUDGE MAY: We will consider that during the adjournment.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. I have a lot of

10 questions, Mr. May.

11 JUDGE MAY: Twenty minutes.

12 --- Recess taken at 12.15 p.m.

13 --- On resuming at 12.37 p.m.

14 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you've got half an hour more. That

15 will give you over two hours.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That means how much time do I have

17 left as from now?

18 JUDGE MAY: Half an hour.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. You did not answer my question as to whether you threw bombs at

21 the property of people that your group was extorting money from. Yes or

22 no.

23 A. No.

24 Q. All right. You say that you had a letter that was given to you by

25 Mitic and that was allegedly supposed to give you protection from the

Page 5620

1 police, and you say it had a stamp of the Belgrade police and Mitic's

2 signature. Is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And you claim that Mitic said to you that you shouldn't show this

5 letter to anyone.

6 A. It was -- in Ferizaj, he told me not to show it to anyone in

7 Ferizaj, not elsewhere, okay.

8 Q. But you were in Urosevac. So how did you have the opportunity of

9 getting protection from that letter if you were not allowed to show that

10 letter to anyone, if that's what he said to you?

11 A. I was not supposed to show it to anyone in Ferizaj, to the police

12 in Ferizaj if anyone stopped me. But in Viti or in Gjilan, if I were in

13 danger and if there were policemen and they asked me, in the market

14 square, for example, if they asked me, "Why are you here? What are you

15 doing?" And if they wanted to take me to the substation and wanted to

16 beat me up, I could show it, I could show the document.

17 Q. How many policemen saw you and Crni coming to Mitic's office?

18 A. There was a Vladi who was a storekeeper, a warehouse-keeper whom I

19 knew was an informer.

20 Q. So other policemen did not see you, then, when you came to the

21 office.

22 A. In 1998, no, but in 1999, yes. There were other policemen there

23 at that time with Mitic, which I mentioned earlier. But the Albanians

24 didn't know.

25 Q. All right. But if so many policemen and inspectors saw you coming

Page 5621

1 to his office, then what was the point of you not showing the letter to

2 anyone?

3 A. I wasn't in danger in Ferizaj from the police. I had problems if

4 -- it was the problems with Avdi were the problems. If they asked why I'd

5 come to the police station.

6 Q. All right. So you were not in danger there. You and Dejan, after

7 the burning of the bus, allegedly agreed that you would no longer

8 socialise in public. That is what you claim; right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 Q. All right. All right. You say that after the burning of the

16 shop, you spent the night in the car that was parked nearby; is that

17 right? That is to say, until about 5.00 or 5.30, you were asleep. That's

18 what it says here.

19 A. What do you mean? What event are you talking about?

20 Q. Well, you say that after the burning of the shop, you spent the

21 night at the car that was parked nearby. You say that you were asleep

22 until 5.00 or 5.30.

23 A. I don't remember what you're talking about.

24 Q. All right. Let's go on because time is limited. This is what it

25 says in your statement, though.

Page 5622

1 On page 13, in paragraph 3, you say that: "In Urosevac, there was

2 some group called Crna Ruka that was operating there; is that right? The

3 Black Hand?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And then in paragraph 4 on page 13, you say that soon people

6 started talking that you and Dejan were the Black Hand and that you were

7 killing people for money. Is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So this alleged phantom Black Hand killed for money, and it could

10 have included Albanians if they included you, as an Albanian, amongst

11 them; is that right?

12 A. There weren't any Albanians in that group. It belonged to the

13 Serb police. It was called the Black Hand. They were -- they were to be

14 found in every town in Kosova, in Prishtina, Suhareka, Rahovec, Prizren,

15 Ferizaj. But it was the group from Ferizaj, from Fekija [phoen], there

16 was a Dragan Jashovic who summoned me, who called me to find out who were

17 the members of the Black Hand there. They came because the members came

18 to our coffeeshop. Later during the war, in 1999, the Black Hand joined

19 with the other forces, with Dimitri. There was also a policeman from

20 Nerodime.

21 Q. All right. The citizens said that you and Dejan were members of

22 that Black Hand. How, then, was it possible, if they believed that you

23 were the Black Hand, that the KLA, after the war, arrested you and

24 released you, although -- if they believed that you were a member of the

25 Black Hand, in fact?

Page 5623

1 A. They had information and had doubts about me because they knew

2 normally there weren't any Albanians in that organisation, and so why

3 would I be involved? So they had doubts as to me and, as I said earlier,

4 they took me and interrogated me for three days. But they didn't beat me.

5 They didn't want to defend me. No one wanted to defend me.

6 Q. All right. But as you yourself say, the KLA killed Albanians if

7 there was the slightest suspicion that they were loyal to the Serbian

8 authorities. But they didn't kill you, for whom the Albanians thought you

9 were a member of the Black Hand. Don't you appear to yourself to be

10 ridiculous when you claim what you do?

11 JUDGE MAY: That's a matter for comment. No need to answer that.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know who the KLA killed or

13 not. That was their own affair. I wasn't -- I didn't have anything to do

14 with the KLA.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. All right. All right. The -- you did the Tai Chi or coffee-shop,

17 tea shop near the mosque yourself and looted it. What did you steal from

18 this tea house?

19 A. The order came from Mitic for me to go to the tea shop belonging

20 to Fatmir in Ferizaj. I'd seen a photograph of it. Mitic had seen a

21 photograph of it, of karate players in Ferizaj near the centre, and there

22 was a store there, a company, and Mitic was of the opinion that all these

23 companies were being financed by the KLA, and told me to burn them all

24 down, all these companies financed by the KLA.

25 Q. My question was: What did you steal from the tea house?

Page 5624

1 A. They gave me the key. Mitic gave me the key. There were 50 keys,

2 in fact. And I used the keys and got into the tea shop. Tried the first

3 key, the second key, the third key, the tenth key. And then I took the

4 pictures, and I took out everything else, took the -- and I took the

5 photographs and took them back to the police and to Mitic, these

6 photographs. There was a Sladjan Staljinovci, and I took the photographs

7 to him.

8 JUDGE MAY: Witness K5, did you steal anything? That was the

9 question.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. All right. It says differently in the statement, but I'll leave

13 that to others to see too.

14 Now, you and Dejan did several travel agencies too, as you say.

15 Now, how much money did you steal from those travel agencies and what kind

16 of goods?

17 A. I don't know what he took. I don't know how much money he took.

18 I don't know because I didn't go into the building. I was outside.

19 Q. Well, in your statement, you say that you and he looted those

20 travel agencies, and now you say you weren't inside. When were you

21 telling the truth, before, later on, or is anything that you're saying the

22 truth?

23 A. He looted the travel agency. That's true. I told exactly what I

24 did and what I heard. But he was the one who did the job. I was just

25 with him. I was a friend. He looted and destroyed the premises. I can

Page 5625

1 tell you what was done at the tea shop, how I got into that building with

2 the key and took the photographs. That was what I did. But the building

3 -- the business of burning -- of killing Albanians, of burning and

4 looting shops, that was another thing.

5 Q. All right. You say you wanted to release some snakes in the

6 mosque prior to the prayers there; is that right?

7 A. Yes, that's true. That came from Mitic, the order, during --

8 during ceremonies in the mosque.

9 Q. All right. How many snakes did you have?

10 A. We didn't do the job, carry it out.

11 Q. So you didn't have any snakes?

12 A. We didn't even ask to get any.

13 Q. You say you saw the army shoot down three NATO aeroplanes near

14 Urosevac. Is that true?

15 A. Yes. They were planes, observer -- observer planes to observe the

16 terrain. They were planes without pilots.

17 Q. All right. They say they didn't. Now, who's telling the truth,

18 you or NATO?

19 JUDGE MAY: That's a matter of comment. The witness has said --

20 the witness has said what --

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Saw them --

22 JUDGE MAY: -- and we can't take the matter any further.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. All right. Did NATO bomb Urosevac? You were there throughout the

25 war; right?

Page 5626

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And tell me briefly, on what date did you take your family to the

3 railway station in order to leave Urosevac?

4 A. I don't remember the date.

5 Q. Roughly. Tell us roughly then.

6 A. I don't know. I don't know. I can't remember. How can I tell

7 you something I can't remember? And then you accuse me of lying.

8 Q. What year did your family leave Urosevac?

9 A. 1999.

10 Q. Was it wartime then or not?

11 A. It was, yes.

12 Q. And who was killed by the NATO bombing in Urosevac? Do you know?

13 A. I don't know who was killed. I know they attacked the army

14 barracks there, and they were -- there was a tank which was destroyed. I

15 saw the tank myself. And in other villages where the army was present,

16 there were attacks.

17 Q. And what happened to the members of the State Security Service,

18 the Albanians and you say -- as you say Sulejman from Jezerc, Hismet Pali

19 [phoen] from Urosevac, Bajram Luri; what happened to them?

20 A. They left the country. Each one went in his own direction to a

21 third country. Luri, I don't know. He isn't in Ferizaj. I don't know

22 what happened to him, I didn't see him any more.

23 Q. And you claim that Bajram's sister works for NATO and Bajram for

24 the DB, the security service, is that what you say?

25 A. Yes, Bajram Luri worked for the Serbian security in Ferizaj. He

Page 5627

1 was an interpreter in Ferizaj and in Sarajevo.

2 Q. On page 18, last paragraph, you state that you discovered to the

3 Serb policemen members -- the identities of the members of the KLA. Sadik

4 Bega nicknamed Mortaje from Jezerc was one of them. Jeton, nicknamed Toni

5 from Talinovac, Arijan from Urosevac, Roboti from Balic, and Simpo Ruzdi

6 from Urosevac, a director of the PTT in Urosevac and Ekrem Baliu in whose

7 house the members of the KLA held the Serbs they'd kidnapped; is that

8 right?

9 A. I didn't mention that, but the inspector knows himself. Dragan

10 Jashovic discovered that inside. I did know a lot of people in the KLA,

11 but I didn't mention them, didn't disclose their names.

12 Q. Well, these are names that you quoted. Now, what about these

13 Serbs; were they taken to the KLA prison that was in Klecka near Lipjan?

14 A. I -- I've heard reports about them, yes.

15 Q. And what happened to those Serbs?

16 A. I don't know. I heard about that from Crni, that people were

17 taken, civilians. The Serbs took them to Klecka, but they are rumours. I

18 didn't see anything, but Crni had some friend who was involved in the

19 village of Nerodime. Zuti was his name, and he was a member of Arkan's

20 group in Bosnia during the war. And they took Bazel. They had arms with

21 them, that's what Crni told me. And they blocked the -- the KLA had

22 blocked the army there, had blocked off the army there.

23 Q. On page 19, last paragraph -- on page 19, last paragraph, you say:

24 "We started drinking Johnnie Walker whiskey." So you remember the

25 brand of the whiskey that you drank but you don't remember a single date

Page 5628

1 that is relevant to your testimony and statement. How is that possible?

2 JUDGE MAY: You don't have to answer that. That's just a

3 comment.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. On page 21, in the first paragraph, you claim that they gave you a

6 pistol of some kind but you didn't know whether there was any ammunition

7 in it or not. Did you ever learn whether there was any ammunition in the

8 pistol or not?

9 A. Yes. At the beginning, I -- I understood that there was, in 1998.

10 But in 1999, I was frightened that there would be no real munition for

11 this pistol. I was scared. I -- I had some in 1998. I tried it at home

12 to try and find out whether it was real ammunition or not, because I

13 thought they were playing a trick on me. But in 1999, I didn't believe

14 them any more because they took the pistol away from me in 1998 and gave

15 it back to me in 1999, and I thought they may well have taken the bullets

16 away. And I had a permit for this pistol.

17 Q. So you had a permit for the pistol that they gave you; right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You established that it was loaded and that the ammunition was the

20 right one. And on what date did you perform these operations that you

21 claimed to have performed, blowing up houses and burning houses in Nezir

22 Beqiri, the motel in Gimi? Tell me exactly when that was, what date?

23 A. I don't know the dates, but it was in 1999. There were -- those

24 matters that I told you about earlier in 1998 and these houses of Agim and

25 Yzdri Beqiri and others were in 1999, as I said, not done by me but by the

Page 5629

1 Serbian police.

2 Q. On page 24, you claim that you got drunk. Do you remember what

3 you had drank drunk on that occasion because you got drunk once again?

4 You say, "We all started drinking." What were you drinking then?

5 A. Yes. I was at SUP on that day and we drank brandy. They were all

6 drinking and I drank with them too. It's true that I was drinking.

7 Q. Yes. You say here that you were drinking plum brandy.

8 A. I don't know what kind of brandy it was, but it was some kind of

9 brandy.

10 Q. All right. On page 26, last paragraph, you say Mitic told you

11 that you had to take care of Jusuf. What date was that?

12 A. I told you about the dates; I don't really remember. This

13 happened in 1999.

14 Q. But you don't remember the date, although you do remember that, as

15 you were very drunk, as you yourself say, that Mitic called you up at 1300

16 hours and that Musa and Haliti came to see you at 10.00; is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What date was that then?

19 A. I don't know the date.

20 Q. All right. On page 27, second paragraph, this is what you say:

21 "I entered the restaurant, the Pranvera restaurant, and sat down. There

22 was a well in the restaurant with a cover to it, and on the cover was a

23 belt and some tobacco, and when I went inside, I could see steps leading

24 downwards into the cellar. I saw that there were a lot of people there

25 and realised that the police were using the cellar as a prison." Is that

Page 5630

1 true?

2 A. Yes, it's true. And there were people there.

3 Q. (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 Q. Isn't that the same thing, the same one? What does "Pranvera"

10 mean in Albanian?

11 A. "Pranvera" means "pranvera," "spring." In Albanian, "spring" is

12 "Pranvera."

13 Q. Yes. And in the statement, you talk about yourself and him, and a

14 moment ago in answer to my question, when I asked you about the property

15 -- who the Pranvera restaurant belonged to, you said that people didn't

16 know that it was in fact your restaurant, that it belonged to you. That's

17 what you said. Now, are you claiming now that it wasn't a restaurant

18 owned by you?

19 JUDGE MAY: What he said was that it was a different restaurant.

20 There were two restaurants.

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted) established.

25 JUDGE MAY: Now, you've got two minutes left, Mr. Milosevic.

Page 5631

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. You say members of the KLA beat you for three months with wires,

3 baseball bats, that they stamped their feet on you, that they would make

4 pauses, give you cigarettes, then beat you on the soles of your feet, et

5 cetera, et cetera; is that right?

6 A. I don't know whether they were really KLA or not. I said before

7 that they pretended to be members of the KLA and said they were members of

8 the KLA, but they asked me about other problems. But the KLA took me at

9 the beginning, and they took me from my uncle and kept me for three days,

10 and they didn't beat me. And I'm not frightened of them or anybody else.

11 They didn't beat me. They gave me cigarettes and bread.

12 Q. Yes, yes, yes. You've already explained that. But that was the

13 second time. Let me remind you. On page 33, you say they came wearing

14 KLA uniforms. Now, all this was after the war. "They took me to a cellar

15 with dark windows. There were baseball bats, the handles of axes. All of

16 them were masked except for a fat guy with grey hair who said he was from

17 Skopje and had killed a lot of Albanians who had collaborated with the

18 Serbs. He cocked a pistol at me and said that I had to tell him

19 everything that I did. He was the only one without a mask and I can

20 recognise him. They questioned me and then began beating me with a wire.

21 They tied my feet, placed me on the ground. One of them stepped on my

22 chest, took my shoes and socks off. They took my shoes off. They made

23 pauses, gave me cigarettes. When they thought that I would lose

24 consciousness, they threw water over me, and kept me like that for three

25 months, beating me constantly. One day, I looked through the window and

Page 5632

1 saw that I was in the village of Slatina, the Kacanik municipality."

2 Is that true or is it not?

3 A. It's true that they took me, but once again, they weren't members

4 of the KLA. They were thieves. They were a gang from Kacanik. They took

5 me because of my family, because I had my wife from Kacanik. And they

6 took me because of problems with my wife. I had problems before that over

7 this issue, and they exploited the issue to use the name of the KLA. And

8 they took me to Sllatina and beat me and held me for three months there.

9 But I know these people.

10 JUDGE MAY: Witness K5 -- Mr. Milosevic, you've got one question

11 which you can ask. One more and that's it.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. All right. Have I understood you correctly? Just tell me this:

14 Did I understand you to say that some NATO officers suggested that you

15 should form a group of people and arm them and fight against the KLA who

16 wanted to kill you? That's what it says in your statement.

17 A. This is true.

18 Q. And you chose not to fight but to flee to Macedonia; is that

19 right?

20 A. I didn't run away from the KLA. I've got nothing to run away from

21 because the KLA didn't beat me. And even if I see them today, I would

22 stretch out my hand for them, because they only kept me for three days.

23 JUDGE MAY: Witness K5, you've dealt with all that.

24 Now, are there any questions from the amicus?

25 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Yes, Your Honour, just a few.

Page 5633

1 Questioned by Mr. Wladimiroff:

2 Q. Witness, would you assist the Court in answering a few questions I

3 would put to you. Avdi Musa, he was a Kosovar Albanian, was he not?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. In 1990, 1991, the political situation in Kosovo changed?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And Albanian police officers were removed from the police force;

8 is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, you gave evidence that Musa returned and was appointed police

11 commander; is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. When did Musa return to Kosovo?

14 A. In 1990.

15 Q. Was that before or after the situation changed in Kosovo?

16 A. It -- it changed not when he came but when there were Serbs in all

17 positions.

18 Q. How come that an Albanian Kosovar was appointed in an office of

19 police commander after the situation changed, as you described?

20 A. Because he was on the side of the Serbs, and they wanted to

21 appoint him captain.

22 Q. When Musa was killed, why did you not cease your activities as

23 informant of the police force?

24 A. Musa was killed after the war, when all this business was over.

25 Q. I see. Have you heard of other Albanian Kosovars who were

Page 5634

1 collaborating with the Serbs?

2 A. I have heard that there were some, but I don't know the names.

3 But these people didn't work as inspectors. They worked for salaries.

4 But these other people, these people were framed, and they were put in

5 difficult positions and -- and then they said, "Help me and nobody will

6 dare touch you," because no Albanians worked with the police from their

7 own free will but only under duress.

8 Q. Whatever the cause may be, you've heard about others who

9 cooperated, collaborated with the Serbs, did you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you know what happened to them?

12 A. I have heard that somebody killed them, but I -- who, I don't

13 know. I don't really know what happened to them.

14 Q. Have you heard -- have you heard about ill-treatment of these

15 people besides killings, or arresting these people besides killings, or

16 beating up these people besides killings?

17 A. I don't know. I have heard, but I've never seen anything of this

18 kind.

19 Q. Have you ever been attacked by other Albanian Kosovars, relatives

20 of witness -- of victims because of your work for the Serbs?

21 A. No. Now I'm scared of them, and my -- word has got around that I

22 was working for them. But they haven't attacked me, nor did the KLA, only

23 this gang that took me to Sllatina has caused me problems.

24 Q. Have you ever been threatened by Albanian Kosovars, relatives of

25 victims?

Page 5635

1 A. No.

2 Q. You told the Court you have been questioned by the KLA twice.

3 Have you?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Were you told --

6 A. Once the real KLA took me, and they held me for three days. And

7 the second time --

8 Q. There's no need to repeat that. The second time, you said that

9 these were not the real KLA. When you were questioned about that by the

10 Prosecution, you gave an answer, "I do not understand," and I read your

11 answer, so please listen carefully. The Prosecution asked you:

12 "Q. Witness, how do you know they were merely a group

13 and not KLA?"

14 Your answer was:

15 "A. I could understand this because the KLA, before

16 they came, and they wanted information, but the other group -- but the

17 other group was asking me about other problems which I had beforehand

18 because of my wife and other problems of this kind."

19 Now, what do you mean by problems you had beforehand because of

20 your wife and other problems?

21 A. By this, I wanted to say that these people were not from the KLA,

22 because I had been with them. But these people came dressed as the KLA,

23 but they weren't members of the KLA. They were a gang. They stole

24 things, looted things, and killed people. I don't know about this, but

25 this is what I've heard of them.

Page 5636

1 Q. Why do you refer to problems because of your wife and other

2 problems? That was my question.

3 A. I want to say that I was married, and I had a wife from Kacanik,

4 and I had problems with a person when I went out with my wife. He was

5 from Kacanik. And according to what I think and also the questions they

6 asked me, this was the problem that was involved. They didn't interrogate

7 me about anything. They just asked me things in order to beat me. They

8 didn't want any kind of real information from me. Just -- just ridiculous

9 questions. These were not real questions. They only wanted to beat me

10 up.

11 Q. And that for a period of three months?

12 A. According to what I think, I didn't give you dates, but I think it

13 was about three months.

14 Q. In a previous statement, you did not tell anything about the

15 persons who interrogated you not being KLA. Why?

16 A. I didn't say so because nobody asked me. And now that you're

17 asking me, I'm explaining. They were in the KLA uniforms. But before,

18 nobody asked me. But now I'm answering at greater length, and I'm saying

19 that they were in KLA uniforms and with weapons, and they took me and beat

20 me, but --

21 Q. Right.

22 A. -- that was it.

23 Q. Right. From the transcript, it appears that the Prosecution did

24 not ask you about that. You raised the issue that these were not KLA.

25 A. Yes.

Page 5637

1 Q. So I ask you again: Since it was not raised by any question, you

2 brought it up, why didn't you tell that in your first interview?

3 A. Well, it's not all that interesting. It didn't seem to me to be

4 crucial. They -- I told them that they -- that the KLA took me and

5 interrogated me for three days and got some information from me, but --

6 but I didn't -- I didn't tell them -- the other people, I didn't tell

7 anything, but I told the KLA about Dejan and other things.

8 Q. Did you report to the KLA that imposters arrested you and

9 mistreated you for a period of time, claiming that they were KLA?

10 A. No, I didn't report it to the KLA. I reported it to the Red

11 Cross.

12 Q. After you were released, did you see a doctor?

13 A. Yes. I was in hospital in Skopje, and I have the document here.

14 I don't have it with me, but I do have the document. And I had an

15 operation, and I had severe trauma. I have the document.

16 Q. What does the document say about your injuries?

17 A. The document says that I was mistreated, and I was tortured and

18 that I experienced trauma. Not exactly trauma but headache and hurt --

19 pain in the kidneys and pain in the legs. And after a time, I was in

20 intensive care for a while. I was three days in Skopje. There was

21 something inside my lungs, too. There was something that had burst, a

22 vein or something, and the doctor noted that this had come from my

23 mistreatment.

24 Q. Did the report indicate any scars on your body because of burning

25 cigarettes on your body?

Page 5638

1 A. I was -- I cut myself with a broken bottle, but I couldn't --

2 couldn't ensure it.

3 Q. I'm afraid that is not an answer to my question. Were there any

4 scars found on your body because of burning cigarettes on your body?

5 A. No. They didn't burn me with cigarettes. No. Nobody burned me

6 with cigarettes. I was beaten.

7 Q. You do realise that you said in your previous statement that you

8 were burned by cigarettes?

9 A. I don't remember. Perhaps somebody did burn me, but I don't know.

10 I only know that, yes, I do, I do have marks of what was done to me, but I

11 can't -- I don't really want to think of this any more.

12 Q. Since people were suspecting you of assisting the Serb police

13 since people saw you together with someone who was suspected to be a

14 member of the Black Hand, since rumours spread around your involvement

15 with Black Hand, how come you were not killed the second time you were

16 arrested by these people who you say were gangsters, not KLA?

17 A. But they didn't ask me about the Black Hand. I said this before.

18 They asked me about problems that I had. They only wanted to beat me up.

19 There was nothing else involved.

20 Q. And why didn't the KLA kill you the first time when they arrested

21 you?

22 A. But I wasn't beaten by the KLA the first time. Because I had no

23 blood on my hands. I never killed Albanians. I haven't killed people. I

24 have come here to say that my hands are not stained in blood. And anybody

25 -- does anybody have any documents or facts to show this? Has anybody

Page 5639

1 come -- told me to come here? But because -- I've come here because I

2 know that I never did anything. If I had done, I wouldn't be here. I

3 wouldn't have dared even leave my house.

4 Q. Did you tell, in these three days you were kept by the KLA, what

5 you told the Court here?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And they released you after having told them what you told the

8 Court here?

9 A. No. I didn't have any information of this kind. I didn't have

10 very much information.

11 Q. I'm asking you, did you tell --

12 A. I --

13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter requests the witness to repeat

14 the answer.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When they took me for three days,

16 they didn't have the information. They had information that I was with

17 the Serbs, had been with the Serbs, and that I was involved in the Black

18 Hand organisation. This involvement, they asked me about it. They said,

19 "Do you have that car? Were you in that car? Were you there?" They

20 brought in witnesses. They asked did anyone see me there with them. And

21 if they had found someone, they would have said, "Well, we have witnesses

22 who saw you." But then they realised I didn't have any links with the

23 Black Hand and let me go. They took me into a car and took me to my

24 maternal uncle's and said, "You are free now from the KLA."

25 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

Page 5640


2 Q. Now, let me phrase it in this way: Did you tell the KLA in these

3 three days what you told the Court these days, or did you lie to them by

4 not disclosing what your real involvement was?

5 A. I didn't tell them, no.

6 Q. So you lied to the questions of them, hiding away what your real

7 involvement was.

8 A. I didn't lie to them. It was about the burning, about the cars

9 burning, about buses, stores. They asked me, "Are you involved in the

10 Black Hand organisation?" That was what they asked. "Did you know

11 certain people? Did you have that car? Did you own that car?" They

12 thought I belonged to the Black Hand. But they didn't ask about other

13 things. It wasn't that I didn't -- I didn't lie to them. It's just they

14 didn't ask about certain things. And then later I was at the Red Cross

15 and gave information. The Red Cross took me back home and took me

16 somewhere else, off somewhere else.

17 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Thank you. That's all I ask.

18 JUDGE MAY: Any re-examination?

19 Re-examined by Ms. Romano:

20 Q. Witness, you testified earlier about the work that you did for

21 Mitic and the Serbian police and also that this work involved activities

22 as theft, arson, and exploding buildings, and trying to attempt the

23 liquidation of people. Have you heard rumours during that time that there

24 were criminal charge or reports made against you for this very illegal

25 fact and act that you were doing and were ordered to do by the police and

Page 5641

1 by Mitic?

2 A. Could you repeat the question, please? Because I didn't

3 understand it.

4 Q. Okay. I'm sorry. You testified that you worked for Mitic and

5 that you did several acts like robbery, theft, and attempt to liquidation.

6 You were involved and you participated in these acts. At that time, have

7 you heard rumours among the population that there were charges or there

8 were reports against you for these very illegal acts that you were doing

9 for Mitic?

10 A. No. I didn't do this sort of thing. I said before my order was

11 only to point out houses. Dejan and the Serbian police were involved in

12 this sort of thing. I was not.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness K5, that's not the question which you

14 were asked. The question which the Prosecutor asked you was whether you

15 heard any rumour that during that time there were charges against you for

16 what you did.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I never heard of any such

18 things.


20 Q. Have you heard any rumours about you or about the work you were

21 doing?

22 A. No.

23 Q. When you report back to Mitic, did he ever ask you to go out and

24 check with the population what the people were talking about regarding the

25 acts?

Page 5642

1 A. Yes. Yes.

2 Q. What were the comments?

3 A. When we did a job, for instance, blowing up a motel like Agim's

4 motel, after the job was done, I would go to the police at Bankkos, and I

5 would go to Mitic dressed in plainclothes, and Mitic would say, "Go and

6 find out what the rumours are, who they say do these things." And I would

7 go out and talk to people. And some people would say the police has done

8 it. But people didn't know who had done it, people would just say the

9 police had done. They would say Arkan's men have done it, something like

10 that. These were the rumours and I'd send the information to Mitic.

11 Q. Have you ever heard any rumour or any comment that you were

12 involved in these activities or that you were doing such things?

13 A. People have talked. I said before, people talked, and they --

14 they said about me that I too took part in this sort of activity, in the

15 Black Hand. There were rumours.

16 Q. And have you ever been in prison before 1999? Had you ever been

17 in prison?

18 A. I was, in 1995.

19 Q. And before that, Witness?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Have you ever been notified of any charges against you or have you

22 ever been in any trial for any charges?

23 A. No. I don't know of any other procedure. And on that business of

24 that fight with the Gypsy, I was beaten but -- and then also I was

25 detained for nine months when I had that fight with Hajrush in prison.

Page 5643

1 Q. Witness -- sorry. Witness, early on, you also testified that in

2 1995, when you were arrested, you spent some time in prison, nine months,

3 and you mentioned that you confessed for something that you did not -- did

4 not commit. Can you explain to the Court exactly what happened in 1995?

5 A. Yes. In 1995, I was in a cafe, and there came a collaborator of

6 Avdi Musa into the cafe, with a pseudonym Bajgora, and his friend Hajrush

7 Rrusha from the village of Varrosh, and came to provoke me, and I defended

8 myself and I beat this person. And he beat me and then I beat him. And

9 on the next day, they came, this was Avdi Musa, Dragan, Lubisha, and then

10 there was a car, a 101, a white 101, and took me to the police, to the

11 third floor, to Avdi's office. And going out to the toilet, I saw Hajrush

12 and Azem and Avdi talking. And -- and he said -- and they asked him did I

13 know this person, and they wanted to -- and they started to beat me

14 because I didn't admit to beating him up. And they told me that they

15 would give me 500 marks to admit, but I didn't admit, and that is why they

16 beat me up.

17 Q. So did you confess?

18 A. Could you ask again?

19 Q. Did you confess or not?

20 A. Yes, I confessed under duress.

21 Q. And after your trial, were you acquitted or convicted?

22 A. No. My Judge was Danica Marinkovic, and I went in court in front

23 of her, and my lawyer was Ymer Rovci and the court released me as

24 innocent, and my lawyer said that I could seek compensation. But I didn't

25 do this. I said I didn't want money.

Page 5644

1 Q. Thank you, Witness. This happened in 1995, right after you came

2 back from Germany, when you escaped to Germany. Do you believe, Witness,

3 that -- or it's correct to say that this could be a type of retaliation

4 because you escaped and --

5 JUDGE MAY: That's not for the witness to say.


7 Q. Just I'll rephrase the question. That happened right after you

8 came back from Germany; is that correct?

9 A. Yes. It was maybe two days afterwards. They came immediately.

10 Q. Thank you. Witness, was Mitic aware of the fact that during the

11 time you were doing the work for him, that you stole things and you kept

12 some of the things, you and the other people?

13 A. But Mitic gave the orders himself. Not directly to steal, but

14 before, as I said, Dejan did this kind of thing, and I kept him company.

15 He knew everything, he told us himself to do these things. He had -- it

16 was my job to point out that this is so-and-so's shop.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Romano, just a minute. At this time, since I

19 have noted that the accused and amicus cited the witness statement several

20 times, I think it's better to exhibit the statement now.

21 MS. ROMANO: Yes. I was going to ask this at the end of the

22 testimony.

23 JUDGE MAY: We'll have an exhibit number.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 171.

25 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

Page 5645

1 THE REGISTRAR: Which will be kept under seal.

2 JUDGE KWON: So I'd like to ask the question regarding the -- what

3 was said just now.

4 Mr. K5, in your statement on page 14 in the English version, at

5 paragraph 4, do you remember that you wrote like this, I quote -- it's

6 about the tearoom near the mosque: "Mitic told me to rob the shop and

7 keep everything for myself, just bring the photograph to him."

8 Is it true or not?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's true that he said that.

10 He wanted the photograph. Everything else, I destroyed, as I said

11 earlier. I just took the photographs and took them to him, and the other

12 things I destroyed.

13 JUDGE KWON: But later, at the same paragraph, you wrote: "I

14 stole a television, tape player, and a video player." Is it true?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As to stealing, I had a specific

16 order. I destroyed the things.

17 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Thank you.


19 Q. Witness, although the investigations were orchestrated by Mr.

20 Mitic, they concluded that the stores, they were burned or destroyed due

21 to electrical installations or accidents, when you went back to talk to

22 the population, asked by Mitic to check out what were the comments and

23 what they were saying, what did they think happened?

24 A. Their opinion was that it must have been the police. Some thought

25 it was the police. Some thought it was thieves. There were different --

Page 5646

1 different opinions as to what might have happened.

2 Q. Why did they think it was the police?

3 A. Because the police did do such -- carry out such activities, did

4 robberies, carried out robberies in Ferizaj among people's houses, private

5 Albanian homes. The police were involved in such skulduggery.

6 Q. Witness, when asked by Mr. Wladimiroff, you claim that the people

7 who detained you for three months, they were not KLA. Let's assume they

8 were KLA or they could have been KLA, just as a chance that they might

9 have been KLA. Was it understandable that the KLA, because the work you

10 did as an informant and the bad things that you did for the Albanians, was

11 it understandable that the KLA wanted to detain, interrogate, or even

12 maltreated you?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. Thank you. Have you ever mentioned in your statement or --

15 that you have been burnt with cigarettes by the KLA?

16 A. I don't remember. I really don't remember. I'm not sure whether

17 I could assert that or not. I don't know.

18 Q. Did it happen? Were you burned with cigarettes?

19 A. I don't remember.

20 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Wladimiroff, you must bring this to a close.

21 MS. ROMANO: Ms. Romano.

22 JUDGE MAY: Sorry.

23 MS. ROMANO: Your Honour, I just have one question.

24 JUDGE MAY: Yes, one question.

25 MS. ROMANO: It is in fact a correction that I would like to make,

Page 5647

1 but I need to do it in private session.

2 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

3 [Private session]

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5648

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 [Open session]

19 MR. NICE: In Doctor -- sorry.

20 JUDGE MAY: Perhaps the matter which you raised just now of the

21 new document, you can put some -- if you have some suggestions as to what

22 should be done, or any application, you could put it into writing so we

23 could have it overnight to consider it.

24 MR. NICE: Yes, Your Honour. The other short administrative

25 matter relates to part of the testimony of Dr. Baccard. I know that the

Page 5649

1 Court won't have his report with it, but on page 19 of 154 pages, under

2 Racak, there is reference to a witness statement. I needn't give the name

3 of the witness concerned, but there's a witness statement that he referred

4 to. The matter is covered in the testimony on pages of transcript that

5 I've got available for distribution, but it's pages 5288 to 5290 and 5305

6 to 5308. So those are available for you to remind you of what was said.

7 The witness statement itself was not included in the Racak binder because

8 expectations as to whether that person will be giving evidence were such

9 that it wasn't necessary to put it in the binder. In the event the person

10 hasn't given evidence, then it would appear that the statement for the

11 particular and narrow purposes identified by Dr. Baccard should now be an

12 exhibit and should be added to the binder, but I thought I should give you

13 a chance to consider that matter by looking at the raw material before we

14 do it or we seek to do it. So those transcripts are available.

15 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Before we close, Mr. Milosevic, you wanted

16 to raise something about some exhibits for the last witness. Have you got

17 them available?

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

19 JUDGE MAY: You haven't got the microphone.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Do you wish me to give it to you

21 now?

22 JUDGE MAY: If you can hand them in, so much the better. Yes, we

23 can have a look at them.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. First with respect to the

25 question of Rugova's party and the LDK, that in 1990 it considered that it

Page 5650

1 should take part in the elections in Serbia but that it assessed that it

2 wouldn't be getting more places in parliament than the 15 it had at the

3 time. And I'm handing in a document which the opposing side gave under

4 the title of "Rugova on the Democratic Platform of Kosovo." This is the

5 Serbian version.

6 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, I'm afraid time is against us. We

7 can't hear anything. But if you've got any documents, perhaps you could

8 just hand them in and we'll consider them for tomorrow. Or we'll have to

9 go on with this tomorrow.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] They are the exhibits which you

11 requested. You said would I be good enough to provide them, and I'm now

12 explaining to you what they're about.

13 JUDGE MAY: I'm afraid we haven't -- we haven't time for

14 explanations because our time -- our time in the courtroom is up. So if

15 you could just hand the documents in. But if you want to explain them,

16 you must do it tomorrow. Do whichever you want.

17 Witness K5, thank you for coming to give evidence. It's now over.

18 You are free to go.

19 [The witness withdrew]

20 JUDGE MAY: We will now adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00.

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m.,

22 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 28th day of May,

23 2002, at 9.00 a.m.