Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6462

1 Friday, 7 June 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.

6 MR. NICE: Your Honour, before we get on with the evidence, there

7 are one or two procedural matters that I must ask the Chamber to deal with

8 pretty well immediately. It may be that if I identify the issues now,

9 either as to all or some, the Chamber would think it most helpful to come

10 back to them later in the morning, either at the beginning of the last

11 session or at the end of last session, although dealing with things at the

12 end of the last session is always a problem because we always run out of

13 time.

14 The first three matters are very short and can be dealt with in

15 public session and then there are two very short -- two matters to be

16 dealt with, with your leave, in private session.

17 The first, then, topic is the 92 bis applications or the 92 bis

18 position as to certain witnesses. I sought to raise the issue of

19 Mr. Hendrie yesterday and got it wrong. The position is that his first

20 but not his second statement have been approved for 92 bis, and though

21 Mr. Ryneveld will be taking and can deal with that, we would be grateful

22 for your ruling in relation to that.

23 Next Monday, K6 returns.

24 JUDGE MAY: On whom we've already made a ruling.

25 MR. NICE: And -- yes. He's returning and, as I understand it,

Page 6463

1 will be able to give evidence with facial distortion and pseudonym. The

2 question arises as to the 92 bis potential for that witness.

3 William Walker arrives on --

4 JUDGE MAY: Just pausing there. I think from our usual rulings in

5 respect of witnesses of that type, I would be inclined to say that he was

6 someone who should give evidence live.

7 MR. NICE: As Your Honour pleases. In effect, if the Chamber

8 changes its mind or expresses a different view, perhaps you'd be good

9 enough to let us know.

10 William Walker has made himself available at short notice and at

11 personal inconvenience to come on Sunday night, I think, for arrival after

12 a long jet flight here, on Monday morning, with a view to being taken as a

13 witness on Tuesday. We would be asking the Chamber to consider those

14 parts of his statement that may cover territory already covered by others

15 to be subject to 92 bis and to save valuable court time and to minimise

16 the inconvenience to him.

17 Perhaps we can return to those issues. But insofar as they are

18 outstanding, that would be Walker, I suspect, at the end of the morning.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, if we granted 92 bis for those parts

20 that you think are, forgive the expression, 92 bis'able, how long would

21 his examination-in-chief be?

22 MR. NICE: I'll have to come back to you on that later this

23 morning as well. If you'll give me leave to come back on that; I can't

24 give an actual estimate at the moment.

25 JUDGE MAY: We ought clearly, then, to deal with Witness K6 on

Page 6464

1 Monday, if at all possible.

2 MR. NICE: K6 on Monday. There are implications for others who

3 have to look after him and so on. And that, incidentally, may involve --

4 yes, I'm grateful for being reminded. It's possible that that would

5 involve putting back two witnesses, Ramadani and Avdyli, although I'm

6 anxious not to do so because they've already been here in The Hague for

7 some time. Depends on whether we get through to them today. Unlikely.

8 Can we go into private session for two topics?

9 JUDGE MAY: Will it be sensible to deal with Mr. Hendrie's second

10 statement, and also -- on the 92 bis point? And also, I have in mind the

11 statements of Messrs. Jemini, Popaj, Ramadani, and Avdyli as being

12 admissible under Rule 92 bis and it might be sensible to take them all.

13 Yes. Well, subject to anything the accused has to say on the matter - and

14 he should be heard - we propose to admit the statements of Mr. Hendrie,

15 both statements, and the statements of those witnesses I've read out,

16 under Rule 92 bis.

17 Mr. Milosevic, is there anything you want to say about that?

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have a general remark to make in

19 view of the fact that my cross-examination time has been shortened by your

20 92 bis Rule where statements are given in writing, testimony is given in

21 writing, that this very seriously limits my possibilities of

22 cross-examining the witnesses in the interests of truth.

23 And the second point is that I still haven't received William

24 Walker's statement. I hear that he's going to be here on Tuesday, is he?

25 It's Friday today, as you well know.

Page 6465

1 JUDGE MAY: We will raise that.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thirdly, my third point: You still

3 haven't given me an answer, although I asked you twice, you promised to

4 respond, to my question, the following: My associate who has taken it

5 upon himself to calculate all this, told me that we received 70.000 pages

6 of documents this week, 200 videotapes, some 50-odd audiotapes, and I

7 don't know what else, not counting all the little bits and pieces that I

8 find on my table here this morning. But my question was to you: When do

9 you expect me to read through those 70.000 pages, look at the 200

10 videotapes and listen to the 50 audiotapes?

11 JUDGE MAY: And the answer is this, as I told you: It's a matter

12 which we are considering. The window of opportunity, if I can use that

13 expression, will occur in the summer. We shall stop sitting on the Kosovo

14 case on the 26th of July. There will be then at least three weeks, and

15 we'll consider the necessary time for you to prepare for the other matter.

16 Now, it may be that Croatia and Bosnia can be split. I'm not sure

17 if it can in terms of preparation or whether in fact they are so entwined

18 that it can't be.

19 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'm happy to give some preliminary

20 indications but loath to take time. I think the Chamber and the accused

21 may be helped by knowing that my intention is to have a list of witnesses

22 prepared for both cases. I hope to have a reasonably accurate running

23 list of witnesses to be prepared by about the end of next week, and I

24 suspect that you will find that a very large number of those witnesses in

25 the early stages will cover both cases. Therefore, splitting them in any

Page 6466

1 hermetic way might not be realistic.

2 JUDGE MAY: And you will indicate, will you, what -- which of

3 those witnesses could be subject to Rule 92 bis?

4 MR. NICE: Certainly. Of course.

5 JUDGE MAY: We are moving some way now from the point. So the

6 answer is, Mr. Milosevic, that we have in mind that question of time and

7 your having the necessary time to prepare for the next stage of the case.

8 We will admit the statements under Rule 92 bis.

9 Returning to Mr. Walker, when will the statement be available?

10 MR. NICE: I'll find out the detail of service, if there's been no

11 service, and come back to it later this morning, if I may.

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes. I mean, clearly something should be available

13 tonight or earlier.

14 MR. NICE: Yes, of course.

15 JUDGE MAY: So the accused can have it over the weekend. It may

16 be convenient, before we go into closed or private session, to deal with

17 the documents we've been handed, the exhibits, the outstanding exhibits

18 which the accused asked to be admitted. They are numbered D14, 18, is

19 there a 19? D14 to D19. Now, unless there's any Prosecution objection,

20 we propose to admit them.

21 We will go into private session.

22 MR. NICE: Yes.

23 [Private session]

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 6467












12 Pages 6467 to 6470 redacted - private session.














Page 6471

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22 [Open session]

23 MR. NICE: Your Honour, our records reveal that Ambassador

24 Walker's statement of the 16th of May of 1999 was part of the supporting

25 material disclosed in respect of the indictment. The second statement,

Page 6472

1 unsigned, our records show to have been disclosed on the 27th of May.

2 I'll check for receipts in respect of that over the breaks. And --

3 JUDGE MAY: Have you got some copies?

4 MR. NICE: We can sort that out by the break.

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Are we in open session?

6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, we are.

7 MR. RYNEVELD: The Prosecution calls Ian Robert Hendrie.

8 [The witness entered court]

9 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness take the declaration.

10 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

11 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

12 JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.


14 Examined by Mr. Ryneveld:

15 Q. Mr. Hendrie, could you tell the Court your full name, please.

16 A. Ian Robert Hendrie.

17 Q. And, Mr. Hendrie, do I understand correctly, sir, that you are

18 currently 42 years old?

19 A. I am.

20 Q. And you have a background as a detective in both the Royal Hong

21 Kong and the London Metropolitan Police forces; is that correct?

22 A. It is, yes.

23 Q. Now, sir, did there come a time in 1997 or 1998 when you served

24 one of the offices of the United Nations in the Balkans?

25 A. Between October 1997 to October 1998, I served in the

Page 6473

1 International Police Task Force in Bosnia.

2 Q. And later on, in December of 1998, were you involved with the

3 OSCE/KVM mission?

4 A. In November 1998, I joined the United Kingdom Diplomatic Observer

5 Mission and then joined the OSCE in December of 1998.

6 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, I'd ask you to direct or focus your remarks

7 at this point to an incident on the 16th of January, 1999. Did something

8 happen that day that took you to the village of Racak?

9 A. I was informed on the morning of the 16th that an incident had

10 taken place at a village of Racak on the previous day.

11 Q. And did you, in fact, as a result of that information, travel to

12 Racak along with other individuals?

13 A. I did, Your Honour, yes.

14 Q. And just very briefly, I'd ask you to tell us what you did when

15 you got there.

16 A. We arrived at about midday at a checkpoint of the KLA on the edge

17 of the village. After negotiating through the checkpoints, I was shown

18 around the village and saw various sites where I saw bodies. I

19 photographed and made observations on what I saw.

20 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, in view of the 92 bis procedure, I

21 propose now to read a brief summary contained in paragraphs 3 through 13,

22 and then I want to return for a few questions under paragraph 14.

23 Q. You took a number of photographs, as you've indicated.

24 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, you will find that those photographs

25 are contained in the Racak binder, binder 1 of 5, which have been marked

Page 6474

1 an exhibit, and they can be found immediately behind tab 5 of that binder.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Have we got an exhibit number for the

3 statements?

4 MR. RYNEVELD: I have a couple of questions on that yet, if I may.

5 JUDGE MAY: Very well.


7 Q. Now, sir, you gave statements to the members of the ICTY firstly

8 on the 25th of February 1999; is that correct?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. And you attended before a presiding officer of the Tribunal on the

11 11th of February, 2002 and indicated or made a solemn declaration that

12 that statement was true and correct to the best your information,

13 knowledge, and belief?

14 A. Yes, Your Honour.

15 Q. Did you also give a second statement, on the 15th of December,

16 2000, and go through the same solemn declaration proceedings on the 28th

17 of May of this year?

18 A. Yes, I did, Your Honour.

19 MR. RYNEVELD: Might those exhibits -- or those statements be

20 given exhibit numbers at this point.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 214 and 214 [sic] for the

22 redacted version. Excuse me, 214A for the redacted version.

23 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. Your Honours, by way of a very brief

24 summary: In his statements, the witness indicates that he was originally

25 -- initially shown the body of someone identified to him as Banush which

Page 6475

1 reports in his statement at scene 1. Now, for benefit of the Court and in

2 terms of some diagrams and I believe the large maps that were in these

3 court proceedings taken by Mr. Kelly, those are referred to on those

4 documents as CL1, that's location one, scene 1. I just thought I would

5 relate the scenes in his statement to the other descriptors that you have.

6 He was shown a uniformed KLA soldier -- by a KLA soldier, a

7 courtyard where a man named Bidi Banush identified the headless body of

8 Azem Banush, and later, at the morgue, this body was labelled as RA-1.

9 Then he was at scene 2, which is location 2, scenes 2 and 3. A

10 man maimed Ismail Beqiri informed him of the location of the bodies of

11 three brothers, Arif, Sabri, and Haki Syla, who had all been shot. A

12 short distance from this location, he was shown the body of Hajriz

13 Jakujsi, who had also been shot.

14 At scene 3, which is location 2, scene 4, he was brought to a

15 family compound consisting of two houses where the body of Ahmet Mustafa,

16 who was apparently around 70 years old, was identified to him. He

17 appeared to have been shot several times and was later identified with the

18 morgue label RA-9.

19 At scene 4 in his statement, which is location 2, scene 5 in the

20 other documents, he was shown the body of a male in his mid-30s,

21 identified to him as Skender, who had part of his skull missing. He

22 examined an axe that was nearby which appeared to have a small amount of

23 blood on it. At the entrance gate to that compound, he found a skull

24 fragment with some hair on it; and in the house, he found bone fragments

25 that appeared consistent with the man's injuries. This house had suffered

Page 6476

1 heavy gunfire damage. En route to the next location, he located and

2 photographed a rifle grenade in the ground with a fintail protruding.

3 At scene 5 in his statement, which is location 5, scene 10 in

4 other documentation, he came across a freshly-dug trench which was about

5 four feet deep and two feet wide which showed no evidence of recent use.

6 He then came to a gully where he located a total of 22 bodies in two

7 groups, one comprising 15 bodies and the second comprising seven bodies.

8 There was a 23rd body located a short distance away but in the same

9 vicinity. On the northern side of the gully, he found ammunition boxes

10 labelled in Cyrillic, indicating 7.6 calibre ammunition.

11 Now, this witness, in his statement, indicates that there were no

12 signs of drag marks or blood leading in or out of the gully. It was

13 apparent, however, to him that some if not all of the bodies had been

14 turned over. Bloodstaining indicated the location where death occurred.

15 All the bodies were rigid and dressed in civilian clothing. There were no

16 weapons near the bodies. The vast majority of injuries on all the bodies

17 he saw in Racak that day were due, in his opinion, to gunshots. He then

18 recorded the individual details of bodies at scene 5, 1 to 23, which you

19 will find again referred to as location 5, scene 10.

20 He moves on then to crime location 3, scene 7. From the gully, he

21 walked into the village to a house with the number 30 on it where the body

22 of Hanemshah Mehmeti was identified to him. Mehmeti was reportedly killed

23 by a sniper while Mehmeti was going to the aid of someone already hit by a

24 sniper.

25 He was then taken to another location and shown the area where

Page 6477

1 Bajram and Hanemshah Mehmeti were killed. The body of Bajram was

2 identified to him. It was lying in a room of the family home. He did not

3 photograph that body because he'd used up all his film, however, another

4 OSCE member by the name of Michael Pedersen apparently videoed it.

5 He then moves on to what was referred to in Mr. Kelly's

6 documentation as location 4, scene 9, which is a family compound where the

7 bodies of Riza, Halim, and Zenel Beqiri were lying in a room. Villagers

8 told this witness that they were shot by the police from a hill about 60

9 metres away. He also did not photograph those bodies. Xhemzjl Beqiri, a

10 survivor from that incident, told the witness what happened.

11 He moved on then to location 3, scene 8. He was brought to

12 another location where he was shown a compound that had a ten-foot wall

13 surrounding four houses. Ismet Bahimi pointed out the body and severed

14 head of his brother Ajad Bahimi. Apparently he had been shot first and

15 then, sometime later, his head was removed. He did not photograph this

16 scene. There was damage to the family tractors and it appeared that the

17 house had been ransacked.

18 In his statement, he also talks about his dealings on the 17th of

19 January, 1999, with Judge Marinkovic. He was at Stimlje when he saw a

20 build-up of Serbian forces that were there apparently to assist the

21 investigating Judge, Ms. Marinkovic. Her purpose was to enter Racak to

22 investigate the incident. The witness indicates that there were sporadic

23 firing aimed at and around the village.

24 On the 18th of January, 1999, the witness spoke with Judge

25 Marinkovic in relation to the investigation into Racak. She stated, inter

Page 6478

1 alia, that the purpose of her visit was to show the world that the bodies

2 were not of innocent peasants, as Walker had said, but that they were

3 terrorists. She - and this is my paraphrasing - said that they found

4 evidence that proves the villagers were terrorists because they found

5 uniforms, trenches, machine-guns, and bombs.

6 He then, in his statement, goes on to indicate attending at the

7 mortuary on the 19th and 20th of January, 1999, to observe the

8 post-mortems of some of the deceased persons from Racak performed by the

9 forensic pathologist from both Pristina and from Belorussia. He videoed

10 some of those proceedings.

11 Now, Your Honours, I propose at this point to show five

12 photographs to assist the Trial Chamber with respect to evidence heard

13 from witnesses concerning their observation of bodies and their

14 conclusions that the bodies had been mutilated, shot at close range, or

15 decapitated. You will recall that there's been extensive

16 cross-examination about that, and in fairness and to assist the Trial

17 Chamber to see whether or not there was any basis for those comments by

18 the witnesses, I propose to show first of all photograph 00732320. And

19 Mr. Usher, if you could put that on the ELMO.

20 This is a photograph showing an unusual eye injury. You will

21 recall evidence about witnesses talking about mutilation and eyes.

22 Q. Witness, I'd like you to look at that photograph. Do you

23 recognise the scene depicted in that photograph?

24 A. I do.

25 Q. Yes. Now, is this one of the photographs you took or is this just

Page 6479

1 a photograph of a scene that you recall when you were there on the 16th of

2 January?

3 A. It's one of the photographs I took.

4 Q. All right. And -- all right. Thank you.

5 MR. RYNEVELD: The next photograph, please. Yes. Photograph

6 00732364. These are all in the Racak binder, in sequence, Your Honours.

7 Q. Again, Mr. Hendrie, is this one of the photographs you took?

8 A. It is, Your Honour.

9 Q. Below and behind the right ear, there appears to be a mark. Can

10 you describe what that mark looks like?

11 A. It appears to be an entry gunshot wound with scorching and

12 stippling around the wound.

13 Q. In your statement, sir, you indicated that they appeared to have

14 been shot at close range; is that correct?

15 A. Yes, Your Honour.

16 Q. Is this one of the factors that you considered in coming to that

17 conclusion?

18 A. It is, Your Honour.

19 Q. Thank you. Next photograph, 00732368. Again, sir, that's a

20 photograph you took?

21 A. Yes, Your Honour.

22 Q. And what, if anything, can you tell us about this photograph in

23 relation to the eye area?

24 A. It appears that a bullet has entered the skull and the passage of

25 the bullet has caused the eyes to be distorted.

Page 6480

1 Q. Thank you. Next photograph, 00732387. Again, sir, is this a

2 photograph that you took?

3 A. Yes, Your Honour.

4 Q. We've heard evidence, sir, about mutilation of bodies and gaping

5 holes in the chest area. What, if anything, did you note about this

6 particular body when you photographed it?

7 A. I observed that there were two or what appears to be two gunshot

8 wounds to the chest and fluids and remains of internal organs on the

9 chest.

10 Q. And this area that you noted that's shown in this photograph,

11 where is that wound in relation to where you would normally expect to find

12 the heart?

13 A. It was in the same vicinity.

14 MR. RYNEVELD: And finally, Your Honours, a photograph which has

15 not yet been marked as an exhibit in these proceedings. Oh, you've got it

16 there? Yes. Would you put that on the ELMO, please.

17 Q. That appears to be a headless torso, sir. You, in your report,

18 indicated you saw two of them. Did you take this photograph?

19 A. I can't recall just now.

20 Q. All right. Do you recall whether or not you saw any headless

21 bodies while you were being shown around Racak on the 16th of January,

22 1999?

23 A. There were two, Your Honour.

24 Q. Did you photograph one or two or any?

25 A. One.

Page 6481

1 Q. Thank you.

2 MR. RYNEVELD: Finally, Your Honours, I'd like to show a 30-second

3 clip of Exhibit 95. You've already seen certain portions of it.

4 Could the AV booth help us? Start the video. It's only about 30

5 seconds. This is at a part of the exhibit, Your Honours, 95, of the video

6 that was taken with Mr. Walker present.

7 Yes. Would you run the video, please.

8 [Videotape played]

9 "Okay. At the top of the hill. The first corpse is that of a

10 male, probably in his mid-to-late-30s. He appears to have been executed

11 by being shot at close range through the head. There are two indicators

12 of --

13 "One of the bullets --

14 "There are two indicators of exit wounds. The man appears to have

15 had his right ear severed. He has been shot at very close range in both

16 the face, and I can't see where the chest exit wound originated.

17 "There's a bullet. I just wanted to assess what kind it is.

18 "Okay.

19 "Because it's not fired. It's pretty big.

20 "Got me?

21 "Yeah.

22 "There are significant numbers of 7.62 cardboard boxes sprinkled

23 around the area, suggesting that those that undertook this calmly executed

24 their victims and reloaded in the same place."

25 MR. RYNEVELD: Stop the video there, please.

Page 6482

1 Q. Now, the photograph of the body that we see -- I'm sorry, the

2 image of the body that we see in the video, is that the same person that

3 you photographed?

4 A. It is, Your Honour.

5 Q. All right. And again, it showed the chest wound?

6 A. It did.

7 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Ryneveld, you --

8 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you. We haven't marked yet -- we haven't

9 given a number to that last photograph.

10 JUDGE MAY: No, but I -- I want to know who that was.

11 MR. RYNEVELD: Sorry. That was a -- I can ask the witness, yes.

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

13 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

14 Q. Witness, did you recognise that individual who was speaking on

15 camera as having been present on the 16th of January when you were there?

16 A. Your Honour, I didn't see the man there on the day in question.

17 However, I did recognise him as being a man named Brown, a British liaison

18 officer.

19 Q. And were you aware of his function as head of the medical team

20 there or were you aware of that?

21 JUDGE MAY: Well, it would be better if you called Mr. Brown.

22 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. That's fine.

23 Thank you, Your Honour. Those are all the questions, other than

24 having that last photograph, which has not been entered, marked as an

25 exhibit, those are my questions.

Page 6483

1 Might that be given an exhibit number?


3 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 215.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Hendrie, a technical question: The images

6 that we saw were of apparently internal organs, some of them, spread out

7 over the bodies or elsewhere near to the bodies. All of that would have

8 resulted from shooting at close range or could have resulted from being

9 shot at such close range?

10 THE WITNESS: It could have, Your Honour, yes.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Because I must say that, looking at it, one would

12 have the impression that the organs were pulled, were taken out almost

13 manually, which is consistent with what some of the witnesses said. But

14 what you're saying is that that is also consistent with being shot at very

15 close range?

16 THE WITNESS: I believe so, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, first of all, I have an

20 objection since here we heard comments on details which are considered to

21 be an exclusive domain of forensic analysis, and this witness here is not

22 a forensic expert. I think that --

23 JUDGE MAY: Why don't you ask him about his qualifications?

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I can see that he's a police

25 detective. He worked in the English police.

Page 6484

1 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Hendrie. Help us about your qualifications to

2 deal with this evidence. What is your background in forensic matters?

3 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, I served as a detective in the Royal

4 Hong Kong Police for six years, dealing with murders and rapes and other

5 serious crimes, and I've served in the Metropolitan Police Service in

6 London for some 13 years and the last few years as a detective. And I

7 served in Bosnia and in Kosovo where I've dealt with and seen numerous

8 gunshot wounds and have worked with forensic pathologists and scientists

9 on similar cases.

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, that is the whole point of my

12 comments. You have statements of forensic experts, and here you are

13 taking evidence on the same subject from a witness who is not an expert.

14 But let me turn to my questions.

15 First of all, I would like to clarify something.

16 JUDGE MAY: Before you do, it's right that we should deal with

17 your comment. Any question of qualification or appropriateness of this

18 witness to deal with the matters which he does are matters which go to the

19 weight of his evidence, nothing else. You can cross-examine him about the

20 matter. Yes.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, my time is extremely limited,

22 and since you classified this witness as a 92 bis -- am I understanding

23 this correctly?

24 JUDGE MAY: Yes. You've got an hour.

25 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Page 6485

1 Q. Well, in that case, concerning the previous topic, are you, sir, a

2 medical expert at all?

3 JUDGE MAY: No. You know quite well he's not. He's given his

4 background.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, this is exactly what I

6 claimed, and you told me to ask him about his qualifications, and this is

7 why I put this question to him. But all right. Let's turn to other

8 issues.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. But before we focus on specific issues, let me ask you the

11 following: In several instances in your statement, for example on page 1,

12 you say that you saw people in black uniforms and then you say in

13 camouflage uniforms. It was the KLA soldiers in the village. And then

14 you go on to say: "I don't know how many other soldiers I saw that day,"

15 and then, at the bottom of the page, you say that you were told that the

16 KLA had removed the bodies of the soldiers before the MUP forces and the

17 VJ forces arrived, which, of course, is illogical. And at that point, you

18 say that you cannot remember how you obtained this information, and you

19 also cannot remember the identity of the persons who gave you this

20 information. And then you go on to say that you don't know the identity

21 of any of the KLA soldiers or military police and so on.

22 So for example, on page 5, you say: "I'm not in the position to

23 confirm the source of the information." This is the spot where you talk

24 about the detaining of the civilian population. And then on page 6, you

25 talk about mass graves near Orahovac where the remains of some missing

Page 6486

1 persons --

2 JUDGE MAY: [Previous translation continues]... a question.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Therefore, I just quoted seven or eight instances in your

5 statement where you say that you do not have information about locations

6 or the source of the information given to you. So that means that a

7 number of allegations stated by you here is something that you don't know

8 the source for. So is it something that is logical for a professional

9 policeman to state?

10 So you say on a number of occasions that you don't know the

11 identity, you don't know the source of information, and so on. Is it

12 logical for a policeman to state something of this kind?

13 JUDGE MAY: Do you think you can deal with that or not?

14 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, I reported what I was told as

15 faithfully as I could. It is correct that I do not know or cannot recall

16 the identity of some of the sources.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Well, when you are retelling something that you were told and you

19 cannot remember or you don't know the source of the information, isn't

20 that something that in lay terms we describe as hearsay, rumours?

21 A. I believe that's a matter for the Court, Your Honour.

22 Q. All right. Let's clarify another issue. You said that when you

23 came to Racak, you were stopped by the members of the KLA who were dressed

24 in special black uniforms, well-armed, and so on; is that right? This is

25 what it says here. "They wore black uniforms with KLA insignia. They

Page 6487

1 were well-armed," and so on. Is that right?

2 A. Your Honour, that is correct except I didn't say that they were

3 special.

4 Q. Well, I quoted your words. "Black uniforms, and they were

5 well-armed."

6 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, I don't normally interject, but if

7 the witness is purporting -- I'm sorry -- if the accused is purporting to

8 quote to the witness a direct quote, then at least the English translation

9 of that doesn't use the words "well-armed," it says "armed with" and then

10 describes it.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

12 MR. RYNEVELD: I think that should be put to the witness

13 accurately.

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Quite right. Let's move on.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, in that case, I would like you

16 to look at the Serbian version, which says "well-armed." I did not read

17 the English version, and I cannot look into a crystal ball to see whether

18 the English and Serbian versions are identical. I think it's the

19 responsibility of those who provide this material to me. But my question

20 is as follows: I would like you to check the Serbian version and see that

21 it says "well-armed." I did not invent this.

22 JUDGE MAY: What language did you make your statement in?

23 THE WITNESS: English, Your Honour.

24 MR. KAY: Your Honour, just looking at the statements of 24th of

25 May, there is the word "well-armed" used under the 16th of January.

Page 6488

1 JUDGE MAY: Let's find it.

2 MR. KAY: Second paragraph. Page 2 of the statement served 24th

3 of May.

4 JUDGE MAY: Which statement?

5 MR. KAY: It's the interview of 12/10/2000 and 17/10/2000.

6 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honours, I have found the location. First of

7 all, in the first statement, it refers to --

8 JUDGE MAY: It's the second statement. It seems to be the second

9 statement.

10 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. And I acknowledge that although in the first

11 statement, it simply says "armed with," that in the second statement in

12 paragraph -- in the now paragraph numbered -- is it 2? I'm sorry, I'm

13 having trouble finding it.

14 MR. KAY: It's page 197181 on the top right-hand corner, second

15 paragraph.

16 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, I see it now. The number 2, it does say --

17 he's now referring back to his first statement and says: "They were

18 well-armed but the weaponry did not appear to be different." So I see

19 that, depending on which statement you're looking at, one statement simply

20 says "armed" and the second statement says "well-armed." I accept that,

21 and I apologise.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. I accept Mr. Ryneveld's

23 apologies, by I think that, Mr. May, you cannot draw a conclusion

24 immediately that what the other side says is correct and what I say is

25 incorrect. I think that that is one more manifestation of complete bias

Page 6489

1 that we have seen here.

2 JUDGE MAY: Move on, Mr. Milosevic.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. The people in the black uniforms who were well-armed, were they

5 the same kind of people that were seen on the different photographs and

6 images accompanying Mr. Walker on various occasions during the

7 Verification Mission's term of office?

8 JUDGE MAY: Can you answer that or not?

9 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, I cannot.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Very well. Who informed you about the occurrences in Racak? But

12 let's be expeditious, brief. I'll ask short questions, you give me short

13 answers to make the best use of our time.

14 A. The head of the Human Rights Division, Sandra Mitchell.

15 Q. Sandra Mitchell. All right. And you were told that there were a

16 large number of fatalities, human fatalities. Now, do you remember what

17 the figure that was quoted was? How many fatalities?

18 A. At that time, Your Honour, it was just a large number.

19 Q. Ken Marcusson from the local KVM unit told you that on the 15th of

20 January he was at a certain position close to Racak. That is to say that

21 he was in the same position which is where the tanks, as you said, of the

22 Yugoslav army and the snipers were located; is that correct?

23 A. Yes, Your Honour.

24 Q. Does that mean that the Yugoslav authorities had previously

25 informed the representatives of the KVM of the activities and called them

Page 6490

1 to perform their functions as observers?

2 A. I can't answer that, Your Honour.

3 Q. And did Marcusson tell you how long the operation lasted and when

4 the members of the police and army withdrew from Racak?

5 A. Mr. Marcusson just referred to the incident of the previous day

6 lasting the day. He did not tell me at what time the security forces

7 withdrew.

8 Q. And where did you arrive at Stimlje or Racak from on the 16th of

9 January? Where were you coming from?

10 A. Pristina, Your Honour.

11 Q. In passing through Stimlje or Racak, did you notice members of the

12 army or the police force, either nearby or at a further distance?

13 A. I don't recall seeing any security forces on my journey, Your

14 Honour.

15 Q. So the only forces that you did see were the KLA forces that

16 stopped you at their checkpoint; isn't that right?

17 A. Your Honour, I can confirm that I did see members of the KLA. I

18 cannot recall whether I did see any security forces on that day or not.

19 Q. How many KLA members were at the checkpoint, manned the

20 checkpoint?

21 A. About a dozen, Your Honour. Sorry, 12.

22 Q. Twelve of them. Now, you claim that after a short argument, you

23 were allowed to enter Racak. What argument was this about?

24 A. Your Honour, I wouldn't term it an argument, it was a discussion

25 or negotiation for us to enter. It referred to the ethnicity of the

Page 6491

1 driver and interpreter that we had with us.

2 Q. So on the 16th of January, the village of Racak and the

3 surrounding parts were under the military control of the KLA, weren't

4 they? Right?

5 A. I believe so, Your Honour.

6 Q. And do you have any idea as to the number of KLA members in Racak

7 and surrounding parts on that day? Do you have any idea?

8 A. No, Your Honour. I'm sorry. No, Your Honour.

9 Q. You say that on the 16th of January, your colleague, Michael

10 Pedersen, filmed with a video camera the locations that you describe and

11 the victims. When did he arrive in the village?

12 A. I don't know, Your Honour. He arrived after I did.

13 Q. How soon after you?

14 A. I don't know, Your Honour.

15 Q. Did he come alone or did he come with anybody else?

16 A. When I saw him, Your Honour, he was alone.

17 Q. In your statement, you say that on the 16th of January, when you

18 were touring some places in Racak and the surrounding parts that you

19 mention in your statement, that KLA -- a KLA soldier led you in a

20 camouflage uniform and elderly man, that these were the people who

21 escorted you on your tour; is that right?

22 A. A KLA soldier in camouflage uniform did show us in the initial

23 stages, and we were shown different locations by different members of the

24 civilian population.

25 Q. Is it true that when you investigated the scene of the event, as

Page 6492

1 you denote to be place, spot number 1, Azem Banushi, did you notice a

2 pistol casing of a 7.62 calibre type?

3 A. There was an empty case of 7.62 calibre, Your Honour.

4 Q. A pistol one; right?

5 A. I believe they're used in semi-automatic or automatic weapons as

6 opposed to a pistol.

7 Q. Look at page 3, paragraph 2 of your statement, please.

8 JUDGE MAY: It may not follow because the accused is using the

9 Serbian. What is the passage, Mr. Milosevic, that you want this witness

10 to deal with?

11 MR. KAY: English page 3, end of second paragraph, first

12 statement.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. I don't think that

14 observation is one I'm challenging.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. But in view of your experience and as you explained to us, you

17 dealt with killings during your long career, can you make an assumption as

18 to who could have shot the bullet which that casing -- which left that

19 casing?

20 A. No, Your Honour.

21 Q. But you claim that the photographs of this scene indicate the

22 absence of any signs of armed battle. Is that what you're saying? Do you

23 claim that the photographs that you showed indicate the absence of any

24 signs of armed battle?

25 A. My observation was that there was no indication of armed fighting

Page 6493

1 at that location.

2 Q. So you exclude the possibility of an armed battle, the

3 participation of these individuals in an armed battle; right? Or do you

4 just say on that scene, in that location?

5 JUDGE MAY: If you don't follow the question, say so, Mr. Hendrie.

6 THE WITNESS: Sorry. Would Mr. Milosevic repeat the question,

7 please.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Of course. You exclude, therefore, the possibility of any armed

10 battle in which these individuals could have participated, or do you just

11 exclude the possibility of armed battle in that particular locality?

12 A. Your Honour, nothing I saw or observed on that day indicated that

13 the people -- the dead bodies that I had seen had been engaged in combat.

14 Q. And what should you have seen in order to confirm that they had

15 been engaged in armed combat? What should they have looked like, the dead

16 people, having been killed in combat? What should they have looked like?

17 A. Your Honour, it's not just what the combatants, if that's what

18 they were, would look like, it's actually other indications in the

19 vicinity. Empty cases, weapons, discarded munitions, damage from the use

20 of those munitions.

21 Q. Yes. So you go back to the location. Like you said a moment ago,

22 you said location. Now, can that mean that those participants in armed

23 combat were brought to that location where there was no armed battle or

24 combat?

25 A. Your Honour, nothing that I observed on that day indicated that

Page 6494

1 the bodies of the men and child and woman had died at another location

2 other than those ones where I was actually told and shown that the body

3 had been moved and the location where the body had been taken from.

4 Q. All right. Now, if the bodies had been moved, the bodies which

5 are moved -- the bodies could have been brought in from somewhere. Isn't

6 that so?

7 A. I don't believe so, Your Honour.

8 Q. How do you know what distance these bodies were moved from,

9 whether they were moved five metres or 50 metres or perhaps 200 metres?

10 How could you tell?

11 A. I spoke to various people and was shown and observed different

12 locations which indicated where people had died and then where they had

13 been moved to.

14 Q. Did they explain to you how these people had in fact died?

15 A. On some occasions, yes.

16 Q. And in that ditch or gully where you saw the bodies, did they show

17 you that?

18 A. I was shown a number of bodies in the gully, yes.

19 Q. Did they tell you that at the top of the gully was the police, who

20 allegedly fired at those people?

21 A. No, Your Honour.

22 Q. They didn't tell you that story, did they?

23 A. No, Your Honour.

24 Q. How long did you stay in that location?

25 A. Which location?

Page 6495

1 Q. The place where you explained that, in your opinion, there were no

2 traces of armed battle, as you explained it, et cetera.

3 A. Your Honour, are we referring to the first location, the first

4 body?

5 JUDGE MAY: Which location?

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Well, let's say the first. How long were you in the first

8 location?

9 A. I couldn't say, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE MAY: How long were you at the scene in the village?

11 THE WITNESS: Until the late afternoon, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE MAY: I don't think we have what time you got there.

13 THE WITNESS: About midday, sir.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. In describing location 2 on page 3, you say that you examined the

16 bodies of three males. Could you describe to us how you conducted this

17 examination?

18 A. Initially, I observed the bodies from a distance, approached, and

19 then visually observed each body in turn and then attempted to turn the

20 body over to examine, to see whether there were any injuries on their

21 backs.

22 Q. And you say that in addition to the -- next to the bodies of these

23 three men, you saw no empty casings. Does that mean that no firearms were

24 used?

25 A. No, Your Honour. It just means that there were no empty casings

Page 6496

1 near those two bodies -- I'm sorry, three bodies.

2 Q. All right. Now, how much time went by, in your opinion, from the

3 moment of death to the moment you actually saw the bodies?

4 A. I can't say that, Your Honour.

5 Q. Well, the soldier that took you on this tour, he knew where he was

6 taking you, didn't he?

7 A. I believe so, Your Honour.

8 Q. Does that mean that the KLA, before you examined all these places

9 with the team, that you -- that they had access to the bodies?

10 A. Yes, Your Honour.

11 Q. And are you aware of a report of the aluminum test with the

12 paraffin glove from the hands of people who were killed in Racak?

13 A. I am aware that the paraffin test was applied to the deceased.

14 Q. Do you know of the results, what the results were?

15 A. No, Your Honour.

16 Q. And were you interested in learning the results at all?

17 A. I would have been, yes, Your Honour.

18 Q. But you never asked to hear them?

19 A. Your Honour, the Serb authorities were cooperative -- sorry, less

20 than cooperative with the OSCE in this matter. I do make an observation

21 that I believe the paraffin test has been discredited a number of years

22 ago in the United States and elsewhere.

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes. And that was the evidence in this case from an

24 expert.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 6497

1 Q. You claim that next to the bodies - on page 4, you say that,

2 paragraph 1 - that you saw a pool of blood, and it was the body belonging

3 to Hajriz Jakujsi; right?

4 A. There was a pool of blood next to the deceased Mr. --

5 Q. Yes. And is it true that the blood hadn't dried?

6 JUDGE MAY: Would you like to look at your statement?

7 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kay, I don't know whether you can find it for us.

9 Judge Kwon has it. It's page 4, second paragraph.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Yes. The pool of blood by the body of Hajriz Jakujsi.

12 A. It was still moist, sir.

13 Q. Does that mean that it was well suited to a chemical analysis?

14 A. You could subject dried and fluid blood to analysis.

15 Q. And do you claim that the blood belonged to the victims that

16 you're talking about?

17 A. No, sir.

18 Q. Did you take any blood samples to analyse them or to perform

19 comparative analyses with the victims?

20 A. No, Your Honour. The OSCE had no such facilities.

21 Q. So on the basis of what do you say that the blood on the ground

22 belonged to the victims?

23 A. In this particular case, I cannot say categorically that the blood

24 on the ground adjacent to the deceased was his blood.

25 Q. And you claim that the body of Hajriz Jakujsi was moved in respect

Page 6498

1 to its initial position. That's right; isn't it?

2 A. It appeared that the body had been rolled over, sir, yes.

3 Q. And do you know the original position of his body or, rather, do

4 you know what position the body of this man was in when death occurred?

5 A. The -- the body appeared to have been rolled over from a -- lying

6 front down and rolled over on his back. The blood did correspond to the

7 injuries of the deceased.

8 Q. So your answer to my question as to whether you know the original

9 position of the body was a positive response; right? It was yes.

10 A. I cannot say that I know. I can say that I believe from my

11 observations.

12 Q. All right. If the -- if you don't know the original position of

13 the body, does that allow -- does that allow, along with the fact that the

14 body was moved, that death did not occur in the place where you saw the

15 body for the first time?

16 A. I don't believe so, Your Honour.

17 Q. You don't believe so.

18 A. No, sir. Sorry. No, sir.

19 Q. But you don't exclude the possibility or do you fully exclude it?

20 A. Your Honour, there were no indications that the body had been

21 moved from another location and placed where I had seen it. There were no

22 drag marks. There were no blood trails. The pool of blood I saw

23 corresponded to the injury if the body had been face down and then rolled

24 over.

25 Q. If the body were brought in part of a tent, for example, tent

Page 6499

1 canvas, would there be drag marks or blood traces when it was brought in?

2 A. I believe there would be indications that the body had actually

3 been brought in, yes.

4 Q. Now, as you are a policeman with 20 years of experience at your

5 job, can you say that you're a specialist for certain aspects of your

6 profession?

7 A. I'm not sure I'd describe myself as a specialist, Your Honour, but

8 certainly knowledgeable in certain areas.

9 Q. Did you move the bodies you examined?

10 A. Some of them, yes, sir.

11 Q. And do you know that it is a basic rule of the profession to which

12 you belong that on the scene, nothing should be touched or moved until an

13 official investigation is conducted?

14 JUDGE MAY: Is it a basic rule?

15 THE WITNESS: In normal circumstances, yes, sir.

16 JUDGE MAY: And why were these abnormal?

17 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, I was not there as a police officer. I

18 was there as a member of the OSCE to observe what had occurred and to draw

19 some conclusions. There had been some conflict the previous day. The KLA

20 were in possession of the village and the security forces were likely to

21 want to re-enter the village, which is actually what did occur a couple of

22 days later.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. When you talk about bodies from scene 2 and the Syla brothers - it

25 is the fourth paragraph on page 3 - you make no mention of traces of blood

Page 6500

1 on the ground; isn't that right?

2 A. Yes, Your Honour.

3 Q. Was there any blood around their bodies or not?

4 A. Not that I observed, Your Honour.

5 Q. And the absence of blood next to bodies with numerous gunshot

6 wounds, does that mean or can that mean that these people did not lose

7 their lives in the location their bodies were found?

8 A. No, Your Honour.

9 Q. So if you find a body with several gunshot wounds without any

10 traces of blood, you consider that they could have been killed on that

11 spot, do you?

12 A. That's quite possible, sir, yes.

13 Q. Where would the blood be, then? Where's the blood?

14 A. I don't understand, sir.

15 Q. Well, how is it possible that there are no traces of blood if

16 there are so many wounds to the body caused by firearms, by gunshot

17 wounds? So those wounds don't bleed, that would mean that.

18 A. Your Honour, when a person is injured, the wound does bleed, but

19 it doesn't mean that blood will be liberally spread around the scene.

20 Q. Well, you didn't find blood anywhere. Not liberally spread; you

21 didn't find it anywhere.

22 A. Sir, I did not observe any blood. It doesn't mean that there

23 wasn't any there.

24 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We're going to adjourn now. We're going to

25 adjourn now.

Page 6501

1 Mr. Hendrie, just before we do, help us with this in case some

2 point is going to be made about it hereafter. To what extent did you move

3 any of these bodies when you were examining them?

4 THE WITNESS: I just overturned -- turned the bodies over, sir.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: In your estimation, how soon were you on the

6 scene after death?

7 THE WITNESS: I can't say, sir.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. Thank you.

9 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Hendrie, we're going to adjourn for 20 minutes.

10 During the adjournment, please remember not to speak to anybody about your

11 evidence until it's over, and that does include members of the Prosecution

12 team.


14 JUDGE MAY: We will adjourn now for 20 minutes.

15 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

16 --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Well, based on the information here, I take it that you're a

20 graduate of -- you have a degree in chemistry; right?

21 A. Yes, Your Honour.

22 Q. Can you tell me, please, how long does it take, how many hours,

23 for the blood to dry up?

24 A. Your Honour, I can't answer that question. It depends on a lot of

25 circumstances.

Page 6502

1 Q. Approximately.

2 A. I can't answer that question, sir.

3 Q. Well, you know what the circumstances were. So how long? Two

4 hours, three, five, ten hours, more than ten hours?

5 A. Sir, I can't answer that question.

6 JUDGE KWON: Suppose the victims were killed on the 15th of

7 January and they stayed there. Can you answer then?

8 THE WITNESS: I would have expected most of the blood to have

9 dried, sir, yes.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. At any rate, the blood should have dried up in the more than 20

12 hours that lapsed; right?

13 A. I can't answer that, sir.

14 Q. All right. When you speak of the crime scene number 3, you

15 describe the body of Ahmet Mustafa, and also you describe in great detail

16 the wounds that he had. This is page 4, paragraph 5.

17 You claim that his body was moved or, rather, turned over and

18 moved from the spot in which it was hit. Can you determine in which spot

19 he was shot?

20 A. I believe that he would -- he'd been killed at that location but

21 had been moved.

22 Q. Did you move his body as well?

23 A. I turned his body over, sir, yes.

24 Q. You claim that this body had no shoes on; right?

25 A. Yes, sir.

Page 6503

1 Q. But there was a full amount of clothing appropriate to the weather

2 conditions; is that right?

3 A. He was fully clothed, sir, yes.

4 Q. Could one conclude that the footwear was removed from this body

5 before you saw this body?

6 A. No, sir.

7 Q. Well, do you believe that when somebody leaves the house, that

8 person would put on a jacket, a hat, and so on and then leave the house

9 barefoot? Is that what you normally suppose if you think that the

10 footwear had not been removed from this body?

11 A. Your Honour, people do all sorts of things depending on the

12 circumstances. I cannot tell what was going through this man's mind in

13 the moments before he died.

14 Q. Very well. As you describe crime scene number 4 and a body

15 identified as Skender, on page 5, paragraph 1, you say that the body was

16 found outdoors and then taken into the house. Is that right?

17 A. That's what I was told, Your Honour, yes.

18 Q. Do you know who brought the body into the house?

19 A. I wasn't told, sir.

20 Q. Were you able to determine the location in which this person was

21 killed?

22 A. There was a pool of blood and a piece of skull nearby, and that

23 would appear to be the most likely place for the death.

24 Q. So somebody brought him into the house because, with lacking a

25 fragment of skull, that person could not have entered the house on his

Page 6504

1 own; is that right?

2 A. I was told that he had been moved into the house, sir.

3 Q. Did you, and when I say "you" I don't mean you personally, I just

4 mean the verifiers, did you keep the axe that was supposedly found and

5 shown to you, the one that you describe on page 4, paragraph 5?

6 A. No, sir.

7 Q. And who showed it to you, this axe?

8 A. There was a gentleman at the scene. I can't recall his name, sir.

9 Q. At that time, did you also have some KLA people in -- near you or

10 escorting you?

11 A. There was a KLA soldier, sir.

12 Q. Did somebody take or isolate blood samples from the axe that had

13 been shown to you?

14 A. I did not.

15 Q. Were there any traces of hair on the axe?

16 A. Not that I was able to observe, sir.

17 Q. So is it your claim that this person was killed with an axe?

18 A. No, sir.

19 Q. In your statement, you claim that you saw a trench which was about

20 120 centimetres deep and 60 centimetres wide, and about -- over 70 metres

21 long; is that right?

22 A. Sir, I'm not very familiar with the metric system. I was using

23 feet. The trench I believe you're referring to was four feet deep and

24 about two feet wide. To answer your question, I did see a trench that

25 would appear to match your description.

Page 6505

1 Q. So this can be found on page 5, paragraph 3. It was about 120

2 centimetres deep, 60 centimetres wide, and over 70 metres long; is that

3 right?

4 JUDGE MAY: The witness has answered that.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. What could have been the purpose of that trench?

7 JUDGE MAY: It's not for the witness to say.

8 Do you have any idea, Mr. Hendrie?

9 THE WITNESS: No, Your Honour.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. But you also claim that there were no signs that the trench had

12 been recently used; is that right?

13 A. Yes, Your Honour.

14 Q. Did you examine the entire length of this trench, the entire 70

15 metres? Yes or no.

16 A. No.

17 Q. Well, how do you know, then, that there were no traces of recent

18 use?

19 A. Your Honour, I saw no traces of recent use.

20 Q. On page 4, paragraph -- page 5, paragraph 4 in your statement, you

21 describe the crime scene number 5. There was a group of 15 bodies and

22 seven scattered, and you say that this location was taped on a videotape

23 on the 23rd of January between 1329 hours and 1400 hours. Does this mean

24 that this videotape that you mention shows only the location or the bodies

25 as well?

Page 6506

1 A. Just the location, Your Honour.

2 Q. And what is the significance of this footage that was made eight

3 days after the event?

4 A. I wanted to go back to the location to see the actual different

5 positions with more time. On the day in question, I had very limited

6 time.

7 Q. Yes. But my question was: What is the significance of this

8 footage of the location which was made eight days after the event?

9 A. On the 23rd, when I returned, I made a record, a fuller record, of

10 the locations where I had not an opportunity previously.

11 Q. All right. You say that on the north part of the gully you found

12 casings. How many -- shell casings. How many did you find?

13 A. I didn't count them, Your Honour.

14 Q. Well, approximately. Two, four, five, ten, 50?

15 A. There were dozens, Your Honour.

16 Q. So dozens. So about 50, would you say? And how far from the body

17 were these casings?

18 A. They were a few metres away, Your Honour.

19 Q. And what shells were they? Do you know?

20 A. I believe they were 7.62 millimetre calibre.

21 Q. And were the wounds on the bodies caused or inflicted by the

22 shells?

23 A. The majority of the injuries on the bodies that I saw were

24 inflicted by gunshots. I could not say at that time whether the gunshot

25 injuries were caused by weapons fired and then discarding the empty cases

Page 6507

1 I saw.

2 Q. Did you find rifle or pistol casings as well?

3 A. The empty cases are typical ammunition from automatic or

4 semi-automatic weapons, not pistols.

5 Q. Could you be more precise as to the time when you saw these bodies

6 for the first time?

7 A. I didn't make a record of the time. It was shortly before

8 Ambassador Walker arrived on the scene. So if you're aware of that time,

9 then it's possible to get the approximate time.

10 Q. So did he arrive after you?

11 A. Yes, Your Honour.

12 Q. And you said that you arrived at 12.00.

13 A. About midday, yes.

14 Q. So that means that he came in the afternoon. You claim that all

15 of the bodies were turned over. Is that true? One can find this on page

16 5, paragraph 6.

17 A. I believe I said that the majority of the bodies appeared to be

18 turned over.

19 Q. Could you describe more specifically what indicated that all of

20 these bodies had been turned over and moved?

21 A. Sir, I said turned over. On the ground next to some of the

22 bodies, there were corresponding patches of blood to the injuries. Some

23 of the bodies had debris, that is dirt and grasses, on their faces which

24 would appear to correspond to the area immediately adjacent to them.

25 Q. Were you able to determine who had turned over these bodies?

Page 6508

1 A. Categorically, no.

2 Q. Is it true that all of these bodies had several gunshot wounds,

3 through-and-through gunshot wounds?

4 A. I can't say that all of the bodies had several gunshot wounds.

5 Q. On what kind of soil or layer were these bodies lying?

6 A. I don't understand.

7 Q. On what kind of surface were these bodies lying? What kind of

8 soil are we talking about?

9 A. I would merely describe it as dirt, sir. I'm not an expert on

10 soil types, I'm afraid.

11 Q. But when you describe the blood traces, you describe them as pots,

12 not as pools of blood; is that right?

13 A. I don't believe I've described pools of blood.

14 Q. Well, that's what I'm saying. You mention patches of blood, not

15 pools of blood.

16 A. Sir, I believe this is just a matter of semantics. What would be

17 a pool to one person may be a patch to another.

18 Q. Well, a patch or a spot indicates just a trace, whereas a pool

19 indicates a larger amount. So I believe that this is not a semantic

20 issue, it's a factual one; isn't that right?

21 JUDGE MAY: The witness has made his comment. Let's go on.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. All right. Wasn't it strange to you that despite all these wounds

24 on these bodies that were grouped together there were only patches of

25 blood and not larger amounts of blood that you could call pools of blood?

Page 6509












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts. Pages 6509 to 6513.













Page 6514

1 A. No, sir.

2 Q. Are you able to indicate on your photographs and videotapes the

3 traces of blood that you describe? I'm just asking whether you're able to

4 do so, I'm not requiring you to do so right now.

5 A. I would have to look at the photographs, sir, again.

6 Q. Well, do you think that you would be able to do that or not, to

7 indicate these traces of blood in the photographs that you made?

8 A. Possibly.

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Have we got the photographs?

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, but in that case, I would ask

11 that this time not be counted in the time allotted to me for

12 cross-examination.

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll get the photographs out.

14 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm not sure whether the accused is referring to

15 the photographs shown to this witness during that portion in chief or

16 whether he's referring to all of the photographs in the Racak binder.

17 JUDGE MAY: Any photographs will do. Just produce the photographs

18 taken of the bodies.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The photographs from the crime

20 scenes.

21 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. That would be in Racak binder 1 of 5, and

22 they're here. They're behind tab 5. Could we perhaps have the binder,

23 Racak binder 1, shown to the witness.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. So these are the photographs of the ravine in which there were

Page 6515

1 these 15 bodies that you described.

2 MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honour, it starts behind tab 5 at number

3 00732312, and the photographs go through -- well, for some considerable --

4 two --

5 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Hendrie, can you find the photographs counsel is

6 talking about?

7 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE MAY: You have.

9 MR. RYNEVELD: Does Your Honour want a copy too?


11 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

12 JUDGE MAY: Now, you're being asked about indications of blood.

13 Perhaps you'd like to look at the photographs. And if you can find one

14 that illustrates what it is you saw, put it on the overhead projector, if

15 you would.

16 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So we are talking about the group

18 that the witness described.

19 MR. RYNEVELD: If I may be of assistance. It's up to the witness,

20 but I do notice that number 54 and 78 seem to describe ...

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. I am referring to the bloodstains on the soil in the location

23 where you found those 15 bodies.

24 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness find his way through that bundle and

25 he can produce these photographs to us.

Page 6516

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. I wish to remind the witness my question was as follows: Are you

3 able --

4 JUDGE MAY: Wait a moment. Wait a moment. Let the witness go

5 through the bundle and select the photographs. You can then ask him

6 questions about it later.

7 Now, Mr. Hendrie, if you would show us, one by one on the overhead

8 projector, the various photographs which you refer to, and if you want to

9 make any comment about them, do.

10 THE WITNESS: Sir, this is photograph ending 352. As you can see,

11 the deceased here has blood or what appears blood on his face, and to the

12 right of his head there is debris and what appears to be blood, which

13 would correspond to the head if he had been rolled over from a face-down

14 position onto his back.

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

16 THE WITNESS: Another photograph, 732378. The deceased here at

17 the bottom left-hand corner of the picture, there's a pool, if you wish,

18 of blood, and the body appears to have been -- the rigor mortis set in and

19 would correspond to --

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Where is the pool? Could you indicate it with the pointer,

22 please, where the pool of blood that you see is.

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes, go on.

24 THE WITNESS: [Indicates]

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 6517

1 Q. Ah. Is that a pool of blood then?

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness go on.

3 THE WITNESS: This area of blood would appear to correspond to the

4 head injury if he had been moved from the face-down position to resting on

5 his back as we see him now.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, go on to the next.

7 THE WITNESS: The next photograph sir, is 732354. And we see the

8 blood there on the right-hand side of the deceased, with what appears an

9 injury to, as we look at it, the left-hand side of the face. The body, if

10 it was in a face-down position and rolled over from right to left, the

11 blood would correspond to the area of the injury.

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

13 THE WITNESS: I can show Your Honour a photograph of a body where

14 it would appear the body has not been turned over and the blood underneath

15 the head would appear to correspond to the injury.

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

17 THE WITNESS: It's photograph 732324. The deceased was part of

18 the main group of 15 bodies. The blood underneath the head - and I'd

19 indicate - would appear to correspond to an injury on the deceased's head

20 that we actually cannot see here.

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Are there any other photographs you wish to say

22 anything about?

23 THE WITNESS: I've not been able to find anything in the short

24 time available, sir.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 6518

1 Q. All right. Do you then, therefore - let's just clear this point

2 up - do you therefore claim that these patches of blood, traces of blood,

3 indicate that the lethal injuries were inflicted on the place in which the

4 bodies were found? Can you say that with certainty?

5 A. Your Honour, nobody can be 100 per cent certain. However, all of

6 the indications are that the deceased died where we found them, albeit

7 that some had been turned over and appeared to have been searched.

8 Documents and personal effects were found next to some of the bodies.

9 Q. So next to the bodies. They lost their lives there, and next to

10 the bodies were their personal -- documents and personal effects. Is that

11 what you're saying?

12 A. Some of the deceased, sir, yes.

13 Q. And did you perhaps establish who had searched them and turned

14 them over or moved them, brought them in or whatever?

15 A. I did not, sir.

16 Q. How many casings did you find, whether belonging to shells or

17 pistols, next to scene number 5?

18 A. I believe I said earlier that there were several dozen empty cases

19 a few metres away from the deceased.

20 Q. In analysing your descriptions and the injuries from 01 to 22 -

21 this is on pages 6 to 9 - it would emerge that these people were hit with

22 a total of 43 bullets, and the wounds inflicted were for the most part in

23 the region of the head, the trunk, the neck, et cetera.

24 Now, in view of all this, the quantity of blood on the scene, on

25 the ground that they were lying on, does this correspond to the number of

Page 6519

1 injuries and anatomic distribution of the wounds on these bodies?

2 A. Your Honour, I've never actually counted the number of injuries.

3 I was only able to describe the injuries that I saw, and I'm not saying

4 that there were not others.

5 Q. So you're saying that the injuries were caused by firearms mostly;

6 isn't that right?

7 A. It would appear so, sir, yes.

8 Q. And do you have any photographs or video footage showing a single

9 case from a rifle that you mentioned a moment ago?

10 A. I don't recall actually photographing any empty cases. As you

11 might appreciate, sir, I had limited film, and in actual fact, I did run

12 out.

13 Q. All right. You're a professional. You've been a professional

14 soldier for 20-odd years. Is it possible that in your statement you make

15 mention of cases and don't consider it significant to photograph the cases

16 in the places you found them? You say you saw them. Is that logical?

17 JUDGE MAY: He's a professional policeman. It was translated as

18 "soldier." He's given his answer. He's told you why he didn't photograph

19 them.

20 Now, Mr. Milosevic, you have additional time. Is there anything

21 else you want to ask this witness?

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, yes, I do have several more

23 questions.

24 JUDGE MAY: Then let's get on with them.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 6520

1 Q. On page 7, paragraph 6, you speak of body number 13 and the

2 presence of grasses and dirt stuck to his body. Does that correspond to

3 the surface that the body was found on? I'm referring to leaves and

4 grasses. Where do these leaves and grasses come from in view of the

5 ground, the surface on which the body was found? And I'm referring to

6 body number 13.

7 A. The location was not consisting purely of bare dirt. There were

8 grasses and other vegetable matter, leaves and such like, lying on the

9 ground.

10 Q. Yes. But you can't see that on the photograph at all. On that

11 particular example, the one I'm referring to. There are no leaves or

12 grass anywhere there.

13 JUDGE MAY: Can you deal with that or not, Mr. Hendrie? If you

14 can't deal with it, just say so.

15 THE WITNESS: Sir, I recorded what I saw, and I photographed the

16 bodies in situ. The dirt and debris on the bodies did correspond to the

17 material around the bodies.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. I'm asking you about the leaves and grass.

20 A. I believe I answered that, sir.

21 Q. All right. Thank you, then. Now, you claim that you were

22 informed that an 18-year-old, Hanemshah Mehmeti, was hit from a sniper

23 somewhere in the village as well as another person who was with her; is

24 that correct?

25 A. Yes, sir.

Page 6521

1 Q. And who informed you of that?

2 A. I don't recall, sir, and the name of the person was not recorded.

3 As you might appreciate, not every person that we spoke to did actually

4 want to give their personal details, in view of the circumstances.

5 Q. And did you talk to her friends and family who transferred her to

6 the house?

7 A. I spoke to whoever was there, sir.

8 Q. But you don't know who with?

9 A. As I said, sir, not all of the people that we spoke to actually

10 wanted to give their details to us.

11 Q. And the people you did talk to, were they civilians or members of

12 the KLA?

13 A. They were all civilians, sir.

14 Q. When did you leave Racak on the 16th of January?

15 A. About teatime, sir. About 4.00 or 5.00.

16 Q. You claim that on the 17th, you had intended to return to Racak.

17 Why was that?

18 A. As you can appreciate, sir, an afternoon to look at the events of

19 the 15th is insufficient, and a return to the scene is always beneficial.

20 Q. On page 10, paragraph 4, you say that negotiations were held with

21 respect to the entry of Danica Marinkovic, the investigating Judge into

22 the village. Now, what negotiations and who were they conducted with?

23 A. A member of the OSCE, a senior member of the OSCE discussed the

24 matter with the Judge.

25 Q. What outcome? What was the outcome?

Page 6522

1 JUDGE MAY: I think we've had evidence about this from the

2 witness. I don't think this witness can help us much more.

3 Mr. Milosevic, you've got ten minutes more, which means you will

4 have had practically an hour and a half with this witness, which is more

5 than enough in the circumstances.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I don't need ten minutes.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Tell us, please, who shot at whom in Racak and the surrounding

9 parts on the 17th of January.

10 A. From what I saw and the radio communication that I listened in to,

11 it would appear that the security forces laid down fire in the direction

12 of the village. Whether there was any return fire, I cannot say.

13 Q. And do you happen to know what was going on when the bodies were

14 taken from the mosque, taken over from the mosque in order to be

15 transported to the forensic institute in Pristina?

16 A. I don't understand the question.

17 Q. Do you know what fighting was going on when the judicial organs

18 were taking the bodies from the mosque in order to transport them to the

19 forensic institute or institute for forensic medicine in Pristina?

20 A. No, Your Honour.

21 Q. And who prevented the investigating Judge not conducting her

22 examination in Racak for a full three days?

23 A. I can't answer that question, sir.

24 Q. Later on, you attended the work of the forensic team, as far as I

25 was able to gather. Yes or no.

Page 6523

1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. At whose invitation were you present during this forensic

3 procedure?

4 A. It was at our request, and the director of the institute acceded

5 to that request.

6 Q. And were you there when the paraffin glove was taken off the

7 bodies in Racak?

8 A. I was present, sir, yes.

9 Q. And do you happen to know the results of those tests?

10 JUDGE MAY: He's already said that. He didn't.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not with respect to his presence

12 when this was taken. I don't see why he shouldn't be allowed to answer

13 that question.

14 JUDGE MAY: He's already said he didn't know the results of the

15 paraffin tests. And anyway, they've been discredited.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. All right. So you consider that this has already been

18 discredited, do you? Very well. So the witness --

19 JUDGE MAY: I was repeating the evidence, which Mr. Milosevic,

20 which this witness had given, which was he didn't know the tests, the

21 results of the tests, and anyway, these sort of tests have not been

22 supported but have been discredited.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In the United States, but not in

24 Yugoslavia.

25 JUDGE MAY: Yes, that's correct.

Page 6524

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, does the investigating

2 procedure in Yugoslavia carried out to USA rules or the rules and of the

3 Yugoslav investigating --

4 JUDGE MAY: Now, have you any more questions, because you've got

5 less than five minutes left.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

7 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

8 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

9 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Hendrie, I'm first of all interested in one

10 point. When you arrived on that particular day in Racak, were you told,

11 when you were taken to the scene where you saw everything that you saw,

12 were you told at all whether there were any casualties among the KLA on

13 that day? Were there any dead, any fatalities on their part? What do you

14 know about that?

15 A. I wasn't informed of any KLA casualties at that time. However, I

16 was informed subsequently that the KLA suffered nine casualties.

17 Q. While you were performing this job which you went on doing until

18 4.00 or 5.00 in the afternoon, you didn't know that; right?

19 A. That's correct, sir, yes.

20 Q. And did anybody indicate the spot, just like you were taken to all

21 these other locations, did anybody show you the location of the KLA base

22 on that particular day, where that was?

23 A. No, Your Honour.

24 Q. So you weren't able to see whether there were any traces there of

25 fighting, of blood, or anything of that kind. You weren't able to see

Page 6525

1 that, were you?

2 A. That's correct, sir.

3 Q. At what point during that day when you finished your work at 4.00

4 or 5.00 in the afternoon, or, rather, did you know and at what point did

5 you know exactly what the number of casualties was on that day?

6 A. I -- at the end of the day, I was able to tot up the number of

7 bodies that I had seen, but I was led to believe that there were

8 additional casualties that I had not seen.

9 Q. Mr. Walker was just with you up on the hill, but he didn't go on

10 with you at the end of the day when you ascertained the number of

11 casualties. That's right, isn't it?

12 A. I would not describe Mr. Walker as being with me. He did arrive

13 at the scene with a separate party, and I did not take part or join his

14 group.

15 Q. Thank you. In your statement, the one you gave, you did not --

16 and this is on page 5 of the Serbian version, the B/C/S version, you make

17 no mention of this, and it is on page 5, paragraph 2 from the top in the

18 English version. In that portion, you just say that where the 15 -- there

19 were 15 bodies grouped together, you found a grenade casing, a shell

20 casing that you mentioned a moment ago, but you didn't say that you found

21 any casings, in fact, there from automatic weapons. In that statement,

22 that is to say on page 5, paragraph 2 of your statement, you make no

23 mention of having found any casings from a firearm at all.

24 A. Your Honour, I'm not sure which part in the English statement that

25 the counsel is referring to.

Page 6526

1 Q. Page 5, paragraph 2 from the top in the English version. You just

2 refer to a rifle grenade, and you make no mention in the statement of any

3 cases, casings.

4 A. That's correct, sir.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm now interested

7 in the following, that is to say it refers to page 7 of the B/C/S text and

8 page 7, paragraph 4 of the English version, and onwards. Paragraph 4

9 onwards.

10 Q. On the spot in the gully, you took note of the position of each

11 body, did you not?

12 A. Generally, yes, sir. There was one exception.

13 Q. Thank you. You also took note of the fact that each body, whether

14 it was lying alone or in a group of bodies or one over another, for

15 example, body 9, 10, 12 and 13, you even observed that, made note of that;

16 right?

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 Q. And you took note of the wounds you encountered. That's right;

19 isn't it?

20 A. Yes, sir.

21 Q. Now, I'm interested in bodies 6 and 7, and that is on page 6 of

22 the B/C/S version and it is page 7, paragraph 2. In the seventh body, you

23 say that the right leg of the sixth body, which was lying next to the man,

24 was near the chest and it appeared that there was some blood from the body

25 of the seventh corpse. The right leg of the sixth body lying next to this

Page 6527

1 man was positioned near the man's chest and appeared to have some blood on

2 his leg from the seventh body. That is what you say in the statement.

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. With the other bodies lying around in a group or one over another,

5 you did not note that there were traces on another body from another

6 corpse. That's right, isn't it?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. Now, tell me, as an experienced detective, is it possible not to

9 find the traces of one body on another if these people were hit from

10 several bullets, especially in the region of the head, and if they were

11 hit in that spot and if death occurred on the spot, that there would be no

12 body from one -- no blood from one body onto another? How can you explain

13 that? How do you explain the fact that in this group of bodies you found

14 no blood after these shots from one body onto another? Because the blood

15 would have had to have been found on other bodies as well, from one body

16 on another. And in one section here, referring to the tenth body, which

17 was a male, positioned directly below the ninth body, et cetera --

18 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness answer what you've put so far.

19 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, I would not pretend that my notes and

20 observations were complete and full observation of the scene. It was not

21 practical or possible at that time in those circumstances to treat the

22 examination of the scene as we would like to see at home. The examination

23 was, I admit, hurried, and I recorded as much as I could in the

24 circumstances.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 6528

1 Q. Well, there are photographs of all these bodies together. I'm

2 asking you, as an experienced detective working with crimes of this

3 nature, homicide, that's how I'm asking you. What happens to the blood

4 when somebody's shot in the head? Does the blood spurt and splash in

5 different directions? And if so, how is it possible that traces of that

6 blood was not found dispersed on all the bodies? You just found the blood

7 on --

8 JUDGE MAY: We have the point. Now, can you deal with that, Mr.

9 Hendrie, please?

10 THE WITNESS: Each injury or cause of injury is different,

11 depending on the circumstances. Yes, I would have expected to see traces

12 of blood on the other deceased. However, I did not record that. That

13 does not mean it was not there.

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. We can take a look at the photographs. I've examined them on many

16 occasions and I wasn't able to find what we're talking about. But we have

17 your answer and I don't wish to comment. But I should like to show you,

18 nonetheless, three photographs in the time that I have at my disposal.

19 I'll be able to get through three.

20 Did you see the body of this particular man? It is Racak 2, tab

21 5.

22 A. Yes, Your Honour.

23 Q. I'm interested in knowing whether he saw him on this photograph

24 where the bodies are separate or on this other photograph where the bodies

25 are grouped together? In the first photograph, they are a good seven or

Page 6529

1 eight metres apart. May we see that photograph, please. Is that the

2 photograph you looked at, this particular scene, rather?

3 A. Your Honour, it's difficult to see the photograph on the screen.

4 May I have a look at the --

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes, look at it.

6 THE WITNESS: The photograph shows the position of the bodies when

7 I first saw them.

8 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. This next photograph, may we see that one too? And they're all

10 together on that one.

11 Now, which photograph corresponds to the actual state of affairs

12 as it was?

13 JUDGE MAY: Can you help, Mr. Hendrie, or not?

14 THE WITNESS: I'm trying to recall the actual photograph that I

15 took, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE MAY: If you can't, say so.

17 THE WITNESS: I -- I believe that the photograph that I took is

18 marked 7614, but I'd have to check my records, sir.

19 Sir, if I may refer you to photograph 732399.

20 JUDGE MAY: If somebody could find that. Mr. Ryneveld, do you

21 think you can help us with that?

22 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honour. 399?

23 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

24 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. Right here.

25 THE WITNESS: Sir --

Page 6530


2 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, this photograph shows the scene from a

3 different angle, and I can confirm that I did take this photograph, and it

4 shows the bodies as I did see them. It shows the KLA soldier who was

5 escorting us and two of my colleagues and several of the civilian

6 population.

7 JUDGE MAY: So that is separate from the other bodies.

8 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic, that seems to have the point.

10 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Mr. Hendrie, I have just one more question pertaining to your

12 first statement. You said that the 13th body was below the 11th body. It

13 was on the -- lying on the back with both arms partially stretched out.

14 Can you explain this a bit further? Yes or no.

15 A. Your Honour, I believe the photograph would probably assist more

16 than my recollection of what I saw.

17 Q. I don't have the time.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] And, Your Honours, on this

19 witness's second statement, on page 1.

20 Q. Mr. Hendrie, you said the following: I was told that the KLA had

21 removed the bodies of the soldiers before the forces of VJ and MUP had

22 arrived." And then you added the following: "They did so in order to

23 prevent the dead bodies from being publicly shown and used for propaganda

24 purposes."

25 This is what you were told; is that right?

Page 6531

1 A. That's correct, Your Honour.

2 Q. And you remember that the person who told you this was a member of

3 the KLA; is that right?

4 A. My recollection, sir, is that it was reported to me by one of my

5 team who had been informed by a member of the KLA that that was the case.

6 Q. But you say here that this information was given directly to you

7 by somebody who was a member of the KLA. This is what your statement

8 reflects.

9 A. Sir, I don't believe that my statement actually reflects that

10 statement.

11 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Tapuskovic, let us move on. We can in fact read

12 what the statement says.

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm not insisting, Your Honour.

14 Thank you. I'm just interested in the following:

15 Q. Your second statement pertaining to Orahovac, page 5.

16 JUDGE MAY: Do you want these photographs any more? Do you want

17 the photographs?

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] No. No.

19 JUDGE MAY: All right. They can be taken away. We must try and

20 finish this witness.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Mr. Hendrie, here you speak of some of the information you had

23 regarding Orahovac, and as you say here, you heard that Serb residents of

24 the town were systematically arrested and that the detained include men,

25 women and children. And then you allegedly learned that these missing

Page 6532

1 persons had been killed by the KLA and that there were about 40 of them.

2 Who gave you this information?

3 A. I interviewed a number of the civilian members of the population

4 of Orahovac reporting missing relatives and friends.

5 Q. My last question: You say here that: "I was also informed that

6 many of the KLA members involved in the initial detention of the civilian

7 population were members of the local KLA village or town defence unit."

8 So that means that those were civilians. They were what is known

9 as village guards or watches.

10 A. I can't say whether the members of the KLA involved were actually

11 civilians or true soldiers. I just described it as was described to me.

12 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Hendrie.

13 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

14 THE ACCUSED: Mr. May.

15 JUDGE MAY: Now what is it?

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Milosevic, please.

17 JUDGE MAY: Microphone.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, the English version is here,

19 and what amicus just claimed can be found here. It says here: [Previous

20 translation continues]... "[In English] before the arrival of VJ MUP

21 forces. This was done in order to prevent the case from being displayed

22 and being used --"

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes, we can read.

24 THE ACCUSED: And then: "[In English] I am unable to recall how I

25 came to be told this information or the identity of the person who

Page 6533

1 supplied the information. However, I do remember that the source of the

2 information was supposed to have been an UCK member."

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We can read that.

4 Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.

5 MR. RYNEVELD: Very briefly. I am conscious of the time. Three

6 very quick areas.

7 Re-examined by Mr. Ryneveld:

8 Q. Sir, much has been made during cross-examination about whether or

9 not the bodies in the gully were brought to that location, and you've

10 given your -- your answer and told the Court some of the reasons that --

11 from which you derived that impression. Did you, in the course of your

12 examination, also make any observations about the clothing and any bullet

13 holes in clothing in relation to wounds?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. And how, if at all, did that compare and how, if at all, did that

16 assist you in your conclusion?

17 A. Where the injuries were actually on the torso or arms or legs, the

18 damage to the body corresponded to the damage in the clothing and the

19 corresponding blood.

20 Q. All right. Second point: In your experience, sir, if a person is

21 killed outright and the heart stops pumping, do you expect to see more

22 bleeding or less bleeding?

23 A. There would be less, sir.

24 Q. All right. About the issue of the drying of blood, you've said it

25 depends on circumstances. Would the depth of the pool of blood be one of

Page 6534

1 those circumstances?

2 A. It could be, yes, sir.

3 Q. Would the temperature - this is 15th or 16th January - be a

4 factor?

5 A. It would be, sir, yes.

6 Q. In your statement, did you notice frost or snow on any of the

7 bodies?

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. And in your experience, might that also provide drying or provide

10 reliquidation of the blood?

11 A. It could delay the drying of the blood, yes.

12 Q. Finally, there was questioning about whether you would expect to

13 find blood on adjacent bodies. Assuming that the bodies are upright when

14 shot, in other words point of impact, that's when the spray or blood would

15 be, while they're upright; correct?

16 A. That's what I would expect, yes.

17 Q. And subsequently when the bodies fall together, if they were

18 together, would you necessarily expect the blood spray to be on the bodies

19 lying adjacent?

20 A. No, sir.

21 MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.

22 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Hendrie, that concludes your evidence. Thank you

23 for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are free to go.

24 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 [The witness withdrew]

Page 6535

1 MR. NICE: The next witness is Mr. Jemini, please.

2 Your Honour, we're back -- there is going to be further Racak

3 evidence but, logistically, it hasn't been possible to have it all

4 together at the same time. Although there's a slightly better scale map

5 in the relevant binder, it may be that the Chamber would be happier

6 continuing to use the atlas for basic geography because the Chamber has

7 become familiar with it. I'll lay this atlas at page 10 on the overhead

8 projector, or have that done. The Chamber will see that Celine, which

9 features in the indictment in respect of deportation rather than

10 specifically in respect of killings, I think paragraph 63 or thereabouts

11 but I'll come to that if necessary in due course, that Celine lies

12 south-east of Bela Crkva and is to be found on page 10 at box K22. Again,

13 waiting for the witness to come in and using the time, unfortunately we

14 don't have an usher to deal with it.

15 Your Honour will probably recall that there are several overhead

16 photographs of Bela Crkva. Perhaps inevitably none of them actually is

17 taken in the direction of Celine, but I can explain by reference to

18 Exhibit 157 where Celine may be found and that will help the process of

19 orientation.

20 First of all, on the map, it's page 10, box K22, Celine

21 south-east of Bela Crkva. And worth noting, there are roads, the red

22 roads, coming from the north, the west, the south; several roads into the

23 village. They feature --

24 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Yes. Let the witness come in.

25 [The witness entered court]

Page 6536

1 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness take the declaration.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

4 JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.


6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 Examined by Mr. Nice:

8 Q. Your full name, please, sir.

9 A. Agim Jemini.

10 Q. Mr. Jemini, did you make a statement to investigators of the

11 Office of the Prosecutor in Tirana on the 17th of July of 1999? Did you

12 come to this Tribunal some days ago, and did you, before a presiding

13 officer of the -- appointed by the Registrar, testify -- attest to the

14 accuracy of that statement on the 3rd of June on which day you also

15 provided a short addendum making corrections and amplifications to your

16 statement?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Mr. Jemini, before you came in, I'd started the process of

19 assisting the Judges with matters of geography, so I'm picking up a story

20 part way through and there's no need for you to say anything except if I

21 get things wrong.

22 MR. NICE: May I lay on the overhead projector what is Exhibit 157

23 from the Bela Crkva binder, first of all. I think there are a couple

24 matters of geography that I'll draw to the Chamber's attention on this to

25 save time.

Page 6537

1 The village of Celine is off to the left on this photograph. If

2 we can now focus on -- that's probably all I need ask at this stage.

3 There are other questions I'm going to ask in relation to this photograph

4 for the next witness.

5 The witness, Your Honour, produces two exhibits. Can we

6 distribute them, please. Photographs. I produce them now. It will make

7 more sense of the summary once I read it; that is, the summary of his

8 witness statement.

9 Your Honours, some understanding of the immediate geography of the

10 house in which the witness hid is necessary. I suspect that, although he

11 may be inclined to help us with more detail, survive without knowing the

12 full complexity, but if we do need more detail, there are more photographs

13 available. If we can look at the photographs in order, laying them on the

14 overhead projector, please.

15 JUDGE MAY: They should have exhibit numbers.

16 MR. NICE: Certainly, yes.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 260.

18 MR. NICE: For both photographs? Thank you. Can we can lay one

19 of the first -- can we lay a colour one, please, on the overhead

20 projector. Take them both.

21 Q. The first one -- put it on the overhead projector, please. Yes.

22 This shows the view from the window of a partially-completed building, one

23 of, I think, five in the family compound occupied by this witness. The

24 white building ahead is, I think, another building in the compound. But

25 of more significance is the brick -- they're all brick, but the exposed

Page 6538

1 brick building in the foreground which has balconies to it and in which

2 soldiers were stationed during the attack on this village. The witness,

3 from his vantage point, roughly where the cameraman is, being able to

4 overhear what was said by soldiers in the building next door.

5 The next photograph, please. We're now looking back from the

6 opposite side of that compound, towards the house from which the witness

7 was viewing things and in which he was hiding. It is the top exposed

8 square window opening immediately under the roof of that building in which

9 he was positioned and from which he was, in due course, to see the death

10 -- deaths of members of his family.

11 The building to the left of this photograph, the white building,

12 is another building within the compound. But as I say, it may be that

13 detailed local geography is not required because matters are adequately

14 explained in the witness statement and summary.

15 But, Your Honour, I'll ask the witness if I've adequately dealt

16 with those photographs and, if so, may they then become an exhibit.

17 Q. Mr. Jemini, have I adequately summarised - and it is a summary -

18 the effect of those photographs?

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. NICE: The Chamber will probably have noted, and if not, may I

21 remind it, that there is in this witness's statement a paragraph at page 3

22 of the statement where the witness gives an account of what he overheard

23 from the adjoining house. The statement is, of course, inevitably to some

24 degree a summary of what he overheard, and having checked this morning,

25 the essence of it is accurate. But it is to some degree the essence, and

Page 6539

1 it may be that the Chamber would prefer the passage that starts: "About

2 5.00 p.m. that afternoon..." and ending at the following paragraph - a

3 short passage - to be given live by the witness rather than simply read

4 from the statement. I would --


6 MR. NICE: In which case, with the Chamber's leave, I will now

7 turn to the summary of the statement --

8 JUDGE MAY: We ought to get the statement exhibited.

9 MR. NICE: May we have an exhibit number.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 217 and 217A for the redacted version.

11 MR. NICE: That, of course, incorporates the addendum, I trust.

12 And if the usher would be good enough to put the atlas back onto the

13 overhead projector so that the area can be viewed by those watching. With

14 the -- no, not the overhead photograph, the atlas. I'll hand it in. Here

15 it comes.

16 If the usher would be good enough to put the atlas on the overhead

17 projector, please, where my thumb -- and if the audio-visual unit would

18 focus on the immediate area of Celine and Bela Crkva.

19 The statement of this witness records that, now 40, having lived

20 in the village of Celine all his life with his family, his house was

21 located in a compound of a total of five houses, three of which, including

22 his, were only partly built at the time.

23 The Serb offensive, in his description, was in three phases, of

24 which the first phase occurred at 5.00 on the morning of 25th of March

25 when the village was surrounded with tanks, armoured vehicles, and Pragas.

Page 6540

1 There was, at the time, no KLA presence in the village and none of the

2 villagers had any obvious reason to leave.

3 At about half past five, the Serb forces started to shell and

4 shoot at the village without warning. It appeared at that time they were

5 trying to scare villagers rather than to aim at them. Elderly, women,

6 children, and some men left their homes and collected in open areas within

7 the village which they were unable to leave at the time because it was

8 surrounded. Younger men, fearing they might be targets, decided to hide

9 rather than to gather together with the larger groups.

10 And the witness, with his cousin Isuf, hid in the roof cavity of

11 the incomplete house that I've already shown to you in the photographs.

12 That top level was a level generally unused and he was able to conceal

13 himself within it, being afforded a view from that window space of a large

14 part of the village.

15 Later that morning, a large number of foot soldiers entered the

16 village. The uniforms he's able to describe on page 2 of his statement

17 were of green/brown camouflage uniforms bearing the white double-headed

18 eagle insignia, those in command wearing dark green beret-style hats, the

19 soldiers wearing pointed Partizan-style hats.

20 At about 9.30, a number of soldiers entered the yard of his

21 compound, shot his dog, and started looting the houses, removing

22 valuables. They also removed satellite dishes.

23 Two soldiers who, from what he could overhear, may have been the

24 commanders of the offensive took up positions on the second floor of that

25 adjoining exposed-brick built house that I drew to your attention in the

Page 6541

1 photographs. Additionally, a number of soldiers took up positions in the

2 house in which he was hiding but underneath him and from which they would

3 have had a good view of the village.

4 At about 10.00, the village school was set on fire, and I think

5 burnt down, and throughout the day, he was able to see soldiers looting

6 and setting fire to the houses of the village. Again, they took satellite

7 dishes.

8 Can we now turn in the evidence of the witness himself, and at

9 page 3 of the statement.

10 Q. Mr. Jemini, were you, from your position in the house, able to

11 hear in general conversation between the people in the next-door house?

12 Just yes or no.

13 A. Yes.

14 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I should have said that the statement

15 deals with some of the call-signs, Commander 444, and the use of special

16 codes, but the Chamber can read that in detail if it needs to.

17 Q. Mr. Jemini, did you, at about 5.00 in that afternoon, hear

18 something in particular? And if so and in your own time, would you tell

19 us what you heard, please.

20 A. Yes. We heard a radio conversation where the question was what

21 the situation is like in Celine and the reply was the situation is good.

22 How is it? Is it as well as in Racak? No, it's twice as much as in

23 Racak.

24 At that moment, scared as we were having heard this conversation,

25 we gathered that the number of dead was twice as much as in Racak,

Page 6542

1 approximately about a hundred dead. That was the conversation which we

2 overheard coming via radio communication.

3 Q. Later on, at about 7.00, did you hear something else?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. [Previous translation continues]...

6 A. We heard that the offensive at Celine ought to stop, and their

7 commanders agreed that the offensive should stop. And they stopped the

8 offensive at 7.00 in the afternoon -- or in the evening.

9 Q. When you say it was to stop, who said it should stop? Was it

10 somebody in the house or was it somebody over a radio?

11 A. No, it was a command that came from a distance, from remotely,

12 from Prizren where the main command was located and which was in charge of

13 the offensive at Celine, whilst the local commanders in the village agreed

14 to the order that the offensive be stopped.

15 MR. NICE: I return to the summary from which I am reading, with

16 some amplification.

17 Soldiers stayed at points throughout the village that day,

18 although most of them left that night. And at about 8.00 on the morning

19 of the following day, his parents and three other family members returned

20 to the village from where they had been in hiding. He spoke to them. And

21 since people thought that this, the end of what the witness would be

22 describe as phase 1, was the end of the attack generally, they all decided

23 to stay in the village.

24 However, very shortly afterwards, the second phase began with

25 further military units, this time thought by the witness to be special

Page 6543

1 police forces, approached the village from the main road. And as the

2 Chamber will understand, the main road is, of course, the road running

3 north-west/south-east, and to the south of the railway line until just to

4 the east of Celine.

5 So that these soldiers were approaching from that road. There

6 were differences between these and the uniform of the first soldiers.

7 They had coloured ribbons on their sleeves. And as we can see at page 4

8 of the statement, they had shaved heads, no hats, beards. And the

9 impression obtained by the witness was that they may have been Arkan's

10 men.

11 His mother and father, despite being urged by him to leave the

12 village, remained. His mother, indeed, insisted on baking bread, which in

13 due course was to draw her to the attention of a troop carrier who yelled

14 obscenities at her but on this occasion drove by in the direction of

15 Velika Krusha and Krushe e Madhe, which I think we can see just at the

16 bottom of the screen.

17 His relations went and hid in a basement. He returned, did the

18 witness, to the same roof space, and within half an hour, at about 9.00,

19 there were suddenly 200 to 300 soldiers in the village with coloured

20 ribbons and so on on their sleeves. These soldiers went from house to

21 house, and at about 9.30, they entered his compound and searched every

22 house. When they reached the second floor of the house in which he was

23 hiding, they took up positions, apparently guarding their colleague

24 soldiers who were there. He saw about eight soldiers enter the house in

25 which his parents were hiding in the basement, bring them out and stand

Page 6544

1 them in the yard. He heard the soldiers ask his father and his uncle

2 Shaip if they had money. His father, his cousin Muharrem and his cousin's

3 wife were then taken to the houses in which they had money in order to

4 recover money in a substantial amount, which was then, of course, stolen

5 from them.

6 Those relations were brought back to the witness's mother and

7 uncle. He saw the soldiers lead all five to a gap between the two houses,

8 and he saw them all shot, falling immediately to the ground.

9 A little later, a truck drove into the compound and further

10 looting occurred of property from the houses. And throughout the rest of

11 that day, the witness observed soldiers going around the village, burning

12 houses, using flame-throwers for that purpose and only leaving the newer

13 houses, such as the one in which he was hiding, which were more difficult

14 to burn, intact. Thus it was that his house and the neighbouring house

15 where the commanders were or had been located were not burnt.

16 They also heard, he and his cousin, the sound of automatic gunfire

17 from time to time.

18 The soldiers stayed in the village until about 1.00 the next

19 morning, and as soon as they left, the witness and his cousin left the

20 village, not even feeling that they could check on the bodies of relations

21 whose fate they all-too-perfectly understood.

22 He made his way to Zrze, which the Chamber will remember is to the

23 west of Bela Crkva, the north-west of Celine, and on the way - and one can

24 see the logic of this if the Chamber recalls the site at the junction of

25 the streambed and the railway immediately south of Bela Crkva - on the

Page 6545

1 way, he saw a large number of human corpses there at that junction of the

2 stream and the railway line.

3 That, then, in this witness's account ended the second phase.

4 Having arrived at Zrze at about 5.00 that day, they rested and

5 returned to Celine two nights later - not the four in the statement,

6 that's been corrected in the addendum - and then he with other villagers

7 would spend the days away from the village, returning at night to bury the

8 dead.

9 In the course of this period of time, Serb police together, it

10 would appear, with Gypsies visited the village regularly, looting houses

11 and continuing to burn property.

12 And so it was over the next 30 nights that this witness, as I

13 think I explained, the mayor of his village for many years, or for several

14 years, so it was that he and others returned at night to bury some 78

15 victims of this attack. Of these 78, some 18 bodies were burnt and

16 carbonised beyond perhaps recognition in many cases.

17 JUDGE MAY: Does this appear on the schedule, the victims?

18 MR. NICE: Yes. It's in his statement -- at least I hope it's in

19 his statement.

20 JUDGE MAY: No, I meant to the indictment. Is this a schedule in

21 the indictment or not?

22 MR. NICE: Not. For the reasons I've given, that Celine is being

23 dealt with as a deportation site and although, of course, it's all

24 integral to the -- if I'm wrong about that, I'll correct the position.

25 Although it's all integral to really what is a very small area, as we can

Page 6546

1 see from the overhead picture, notwithstanding the awfulness of these

2 events, he might not have been called as a witness but for the very

3 important evidence that he can give about the conversations that were

4 overheard. But I'll just check that he -- that the victims are not in the

5 schedule to the indictment.

6 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We will adjourn now.

7 Mr. Jemini, we're going to adjourn for 20 minutes. Would you come

8 back then to conclude your evidence. Remember not to speak to anybody

9 about your evidence until it's over, and that does include the members of

10 the Prosecution team.

11 If the registrar would come up, please.

12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll adjourn.

14 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 12.52 a.m.

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

17 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

18 Q. [Interpretation] According to the information you have provided,

19 it says that your previous profession was technical director. Where were

20 you technical director, in fact?

21 A. At the industrial exchange parts in Rahovec.

22 Q. And what is your vocation?

23 A. Mechanical engineering. Mechanical engineering.

24 Q. And where did you go to school? Where did you graduate and when?

25 A. In Prishtina, in 1985.

Page 6547

1 Q. You say that for the last 15 years, you were the head of a

2 village, elected that; is that right? Village leader.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And who elected you village leader?

5 A. The residents of the village.

6 Q. When you were giving your statement to the investigator, you were

7 38 years old; right?

8 A. Forty years old.

9 Q. Forty.

10 A. Thirty-nine.

11 Q. Thirty-nine. Very well. So you were village leader of Celine

12 when you were 24 years old; right?

13 A. From the age of 24.

14 Q. As this isn't customary in Kosovo, how do you explain the fact

15 that such a young man was elected to be village leader with all the older

16 people around you?

17 A. This can be explained because we were working for the future and

18 the prosperity of the village. And this -- and this was a voluntary

19 position, because every villager tried to contribute something for the

20 future of the village.

21 Q. Are you a member of any political party?

22 A. Now, yes.

23 Q. Which one?

24 A. The democratic party.

25 Q. Is that the party of Ibrahim Rugova?

Page 6548

1 A. No.

2 Q. Who's the president of your party, then?

3 A. Mr. Hashim Thaci.

4 Q. Were you a member of the KLA?

5 A. No.

6 Q. When did you become member -- a member of the Hashim Thaci party?

7 A. From when the party was founded.

8 Q. And when was that?

9 A. On the date when it was formed.

10 Q. What was that date?

11 A. On the day when the party was founded, after the war.

12 Q. You don't know the exact date?

13 A. No. It's not very important.

14 Q. Well, I'd like you to answer the questions. Now, whether it's

15 important or not is not up to you to decide.

16 A. Perhaps I can't -- I can't really remember the date but I know

17 that it was founded after the war.

18 Q. All right. On page 2 of your statement, paragraph 2, it says and

19 I quote: "The whole population of the village --"

20 MR. NICE: I trust the witness has got the statement before him.

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. "All the inhabitants were still in the village because there were

24 no members of the KLA present, and there was no reason for anyone to

25 leave." End of quotation. Are those your words? "The whole population

Page 6549

1 of the village was still present because we had no KLA presence and there

2 was no reason for anyone to leave." Is that what you say?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, explain this to me: Why do you emphasise the fact that

5 because there were no KLA, that the inhabitants had no reason to leave the

6 village? Why do you say that?

7 A. I say this because everywhere the Serbian army and police entered

8 into areas where there was KLA. So I wanted to say that we were not in

9 any way to blame for this. And that's why we decided to remain in our

10 houses and why nobody left the village.

11 Q. Yes. But as you say there were no KLA -- we had no KLA presence

12 and there was no reason for anyone to leave the village, when you say

13 that, do you in fact imply that from villages and places in which there

14 were members of the KLA, the population left the villages and those

15 places?

16 A. No.

17 Q. So not even in places where there were KLA members did the

18 inhabitants leave the villages; right?

19 A. Nobody left the villages until Serbian army and police forced them

20 out.

21 Q. I understood your explanation in a different way, that you had no

22 reason because there were no KLA, which means, conversely, that if there

23 were KLA present, the inhabitants had reason to leave the village. Is

24 that logical or not?

25 A. No, because the KLA was in operation for a year. But in no --

Page 6550

1 nowhere did the population go to Albania in this time. But it was the

2 Serbian army and the police that, according to their strategy, regardless

3 of where the KLA was, it was the Serbian forces that decided to expel the

4 population into neighbouring countries.

5 Q. All right. As you say regardless of where the KLA was the Serb

6 forces behaved in the same way, why then did you say that all the

7 inhabitants were still in the village because "we had no KLA presence

8 there"? If this is regardless, as you say, why are you placing it in

9 regard of this, if I can put it that way?

10 A. We emphasised this because, until the NATO intervention, the

11 Serbian army and police had not expelled anybody from the Albanian

12 territories to neighbouring countries. But at the moment of the NATO

13 intervention, they had a strategy ready, prepared, to expel the population

14 regardless of whether the KLA was present in these places or not.

15 Q. All right. That means that before the 24th of March, the

16 beginning of the war, you had no problems. That would follow on from

17 that, would it?

18 A. We didn't have any kind of problem in the village.

19 Q. And then when the war broke out, the refugees started, just like

20 they do in any war; right?

21 A. No. When the Serbian army and police came to the village, whether

22 the KLA was present or not, the intention was to expel the entire

23 population to the territory of neighbouring villages, regardless of who

24 was there. And it involved murders and assaults and arsons and other

25 crimes.

Page 6551

1 Q. Yes. Tell me this: Have you ever heard of a war without

2 refugees?

3 JUDGE MAY: It's not a matter for the witness.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Let's first then clear up one other point; what you say in your

7 statement on the first two pages. You explain that the army, at 9.30,

8 arrived. You hid. Various events took place, as you say. They entered

9 houses, took away some property, some belongings. And then on that first

10 day, that is to say, you listened in on a conversation, and then on that

11 first day, they left. Is that right? And you then believed that they had

12 come, gone, and passed through; right?

13 A. Looking at the strategy so far until 25th of March, the army and

14 police throughout Kosova behaved in this kind of way. They would go out

15 and do their duties and then withdraw on single day or half-day

16 offensives. And we, the population, thought it would be an offensive of

17 this kind and we would then be free to return to our homes.

18 Q. All right. As far as I was able to gather, on that first day, the

19 one you're referring to in pages 1 and 2 of your statement, nobody

20 suffered at all; right?

21 A. I think you've misunderstood this. A lot of people suffered on

22 the first day. Fifty-five people were killed on the first day. The

23 entire population was gathered together and robbed at a certain place.

24 Several houses were burned, and there was fire from tanks and armoured

25 vehicles and Pragas throughout the day. From 6.00 in the morning to 8.00

Page 6552

1 in the evening.

2 Q. All right. You say from 5.30, but that doesn't matter.

3 And where does it say in your statement that people did fall

4 casualty on that first day? You didn't write that anywhere. You didn't

5 say that anybody was a victim on that first day.

6 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Let the witness deal with that.

7 Just look at your statement, Mr. Jemini, if you have it.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. In my statement, it says like

9 that. But the murders of the 25th happened on that day, when -- and it

10 was on -- at 8.00 in the morning that the news came that so many people

11 had been killed, on the following day.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Well, come on now, please. Show me in your statement, where you

14 begin with the 25th of March at 5.00 and then 5.30, you say: "About 5.30

15 a.m., the military forces..." That is in paragraph 3 on the first page.

16 "It did not appear that they were aiming at the people but it seemed that

17 they were trying to scare everyone in the village." That is how your

18 sentence reads. And then you go on to say that people left and so on.

19 But nowhere on the first day do you speak -- there is absolutely no

20 statement of yours referring to any people getting hurt or any casualties

21 or any individuals getting hurt. Isn't that right? And then they left,

22 you say, and returned afterwards. That's another matter. But as to that

23 first day, tell me, please, where in your statement does it say that

24 people were hurt, that there were casualties?

25 A. In my statement, it states what happened on the 25th and the 26th

Page 6553

1 and the 27th and thereafter. It says very clearly what happened on the

2 25th. The 26th -- and please read my statement carefully.

3 Q. Well, precisely because you say specifically what happened, I

4 claim that your statement makes no mention of anybody getting hurt on the

5 25th. Is that right or is it not?

6 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice.

7 MR. NICE: The accused is simply not turning to his mind to what

8 the evidence has been. 5.00 p.m. the same day, the witness has already

9 given an account of what he overheard, the inference he drew from that,

10 and if he didn't happen to see any particular killings because of his

11 vantage point, that's one thing, but it's clear as can be that he assumed

12 right from the beginning that there were killings going on and he gave a

13 calculation of how many he thought there were from what he overheard on

14 the radio.

15 JUDGE MAY: That is right. Nowhere it refers to 55 people. If it

16 does, perhaps you could refer me to it.

17 Now, Mr. Milosevic, you've made the point. Let's move on to

18 something else.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Now, this fact that nothing happened on that first day logically

22 refutes what you're talking about when you say that you listened in, that

23 you heard this; isn't that right?

24 JUDGE MAY: No. That's not a point. The witness has described

25 what he heard, and you can ask him about it, but asking him hypothetical

Page 6554

1 questions like that is not going to help anybody.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll ask him now. I'll ask him

3 about that right now.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. How far is this house away, the one you indicated from which you

6 allegedly listened in to the conversation which the commander had via

7 radio with the person he was communicating with? How far is this house?

8 A. Fifteen metres.

9 Q. Well, can't you see on this photograph, as you can see your own

10 window from which this was taken, that it's at least 50 metres to that

11 house?

12 JUDGE MAY: We have --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. That's what you may think.

14 JUDGE MAY: We have the photograph in front of us.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Yes. And on the photograph, can you see that there's no window

17 facing you, towards you?

18 A. No. It seems you don't understand the photograph, because

19 0226138, you can see the window clearly with two balconies in front. So

20 you can see that it's only 15 metres away.

21 Q. The balconies are not facing you, are not turned towards you,

22 neither are the windows. They don't face you, they are at an angle of 90

23 degrees and are facing the direction from which your window was looking

24 out onto, but there's no window facing you.

25 So you claim that you were listening to a conversation taking

Page 6555

1 place in the neighbouring house which has no windows turned towards you

2 and that you were doing this, to boot, from the loft, the attic of a

3 neighbouring house, which is the distance you can see, and we can

4 establish that distance. We're not going to go into that now. But you

5 claim that you were listening in to this conversation via radio.

6 A. Excuse me. We know that you don't accept the truth, but the truth

7 is that the window is in the position to see the two balconies, a distance

8 of 15 metres. It's not -- it's not a photograph of the kind that you

9 suggest at all. So you can indeed see this site from 15 metres away.

10 Q. But these are balconies that have not been finished yet.

11 Construction not completed. People couldn't sit out on them. And the

12 people were inside and you say that you heard their conversation from your

13 window where you were hiding so that nobody could see you.

14 JUDGE MAY: That is his evidence, yes, that he could hear the

15 conversation.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. But according to the statement from the alleged crimes that he

19 refers to, part of the satellite dish was removed from the building. And

20 he says that he heard how there would -- it would be worse in Racak. And

21 then he heard them say, "Stop the attack on Celine," and the other man

22 said, "Yes, we will," as if this was a conversation between the command

23 and the officers.

24 JUDGE MAY: This is not a question. Either you must ask a

25 question or we'll close the cross-examination.

Page 6556

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. I'll move on. I'll move

2 on in my questions.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. On page 2, paragraph 2, you say that most of the inhabitants left

5 their homes and collected at two or three main areas in the village.

6 Which areas were these?

7 A. These are on the outskirts on the village where they felt they

8 were safer. Places of hiding, in the shade of -- at the foot of a

9 mountain or hiding in some kind of hole where bullets wouldn't be able to

10 catch them.

11 Q. And why didn't you go with them there? Why didn't you collect

12 there but you hid in the attic with a relative of yours? Why were you

13 hiding in the attic?

14 A. We didn't leave because we knew what the Serbian strategy

15 consisted of, and we were quite aware of what they thought of people who

16 were involved in contributing to the prosperity of their country,

17 especially belonging to the ages of between 30 and 40 years of age. And

18 we were interested not to be amongst women and children and the elderly,

19 our mothers and fathers, so that they wouldn't become subject of

20 mistreatment. That is why we preferred to remain at a distance so that we

21 wouldn't testify to the worst.

22 I can say that at the moment when everybody left the village of

23 Celine, I personally, as village chief, I personally -- there was people,

24 two people came and were beaten up because they couldn't tell the police

25 and the army where I was. They inquired about my whereabouts, and they

Page 6557

1 were unable to tell them.

2 Q. And why were they looking for you, especially when you weren't a

3 KLA member?

4 A. It's not true that the Serb -- that the strategy of Serbian police

5 and the army was to inquire after KLA members. Part of their brief for

6 years on end was to eradicate everything that is intellectual and

7 contributes to the prosperity of the Albanians. That's what Serbian

8 criminals attempted to do.

9 Q. All right. Will you please just answer my questions. We don't

10 need to go into this business with intellectuals.

11 Why did you hide in the attic with your relative --

12 MR. NICE: I'm sorry --

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. -- and you didn't know where your children were?

15 MR. NICE: If the accused asks questions of the kind he asks of a

16 person who may rank as an intellectual and the person's understanding is

17 that he may have been targeted on that basis, then the answer is proper.

18 And the accused regularly trying to shut out questions by making comments

19 is really unacceptable.

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Next question.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I didn't understand this

22 witness to be an intellectual, and if it is true --

23 JUDGE MAY: We're not going to go into this now.


25 JUDGE MAY: We've dealt with it.

Page 6558

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. So now, as you just described to us, everybody had left except for

4 you and your relative who were in the attic. And where were your children

5 at that moment?

6 A. At that moment, my children, my father, my mother, and my wife,

7 they -- alongside the rest of the extended family and the overall

8 inhabitants of Celine, went away together. As I said earlier, we did not

9 want to be in their midst, being aware that your police, based on the

10 strategy that we were fully aware of what it was, wouldn't want to be a

11 part of that, because it wasn't only me and my cousin; there were other

12 people who were left behind and helped bury the people and the victims of

13 the massacre that occurred at Celine.

14 Q. Can you explain to me, please, where did the army shoot at the

15 village from?

16 A. It's not a big deal. It wasn't choosing its positions. The whole

17 village was encircled from all sides. From the main road, Prizren,

18 Gjakove, from Bellacerkva, from Rahovec, from Lignaci, from Krushe e

19 Madhe.

20 Q. All right. And if they were not targeting people in the village,

21 then what did they target?

22 A. No. They appeared keener to secure their entry on foot into the

23 village so that everybody would be massacred and there'd be burning down.

24 So their duty on the first day, using heavy artillery, was to pave the way

25 for the entry the very next day of the infantry and of the soldiers on

Page 6559

1 foot to do everything that does not belong to modern civilisation.

2 Q. And what did they destroy with their artillery in order to clear

3 the way?

4 A. Nothing else but to scare the population away so that it would be

5 easier for them to carry out what they'd set out to do.

6 Q. All right. You say that you were hiding for 48 hours in the attic

7 with your cousin Isuf Jemini. Did Isuf give a statement to the

8 investigators of the Tribunal as well?

9 A. Yes. But given that the statement was fairly similar, given we

10 were together all the time, it appeared sufficient to have only one

11 statement of that kind submitted before this Tribunal.

12 Q. In your statement, you say: "In the house adjacent to us,

13 commanders used second floor and balcony on the second floor, the balcony

14 which faced the house in which I was hiding."

15 So as we can see from this photograph, this balcony is not facing

16 the house, it's facing the opposite side.

17 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, we've been over this point. We're not

18 going to go over it again. Find another point.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. You claim that the soldiers shot indiscriminately throughout the

22 village, broke into houses, looted, yelled, and so on; is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. So that means that they were shooting indiscriminately and yelling

25 and so on. So all of that must have produced a lot of noise. Is that

Page 6560

1 right or not?

2 A. Not necessarily a lot of noise. It -- it was quiet because the

3 population was not there and it was only the Serbian military and the

4 police that operated in the area.

5 Q. Well, everything that you listed so far, didn't that create a lot

6 of noise? Now you're telling us that it was quiet in the village. So

7 what was it? Was there noise, yelling, shooting, and everything that I've

8 numbered so far, or was it quiet? Choose one or the other.

9 A. No. The noise and the shouting came from the side of the police

10 and the army. There was no noise made by the population of that village

11 because they were waiting death to come.

12 Q. I'm not asking you about the origin of the noise. I'm just asking

13 you whether all of that shooting, yelling, and so on, did that produce a

14 lot of noise? You are telling us that the army did all this. So was

15 there a lot of noise?

16 A. Yes, certainly there was some noise.

17 Q. Could you now explain to me, please, how was it possible that you

18 were in the attic, hiding, and all of this noise created by the army and

19 firing was going on by the army and all the while you were able to hear

20 the conversation in the adjacent house.

21 JUDGE MAY: Well, the question, to be fair, should be this: Was

22 there -- was there a noise at the time of the conversation?

23 A. The noise was coming from the village. It wasn't concentrated

24 where we and the Serbian police, 15 minutes away from us, was situated.

25 So the noise came remotely from the village. And that did not hamper us

Page 6561

1 overhearing the conversation that the police carried out during those

2 moments.

3 Q. All right. And in your statement, on page 3 you say as follows:

4 "I watched the whole day the soldiers go into the houses throughout the

5 village."

6 So were you able to see that through that same window?

7 A. Excuse me. Maybe you're misreading the third part of this

8 declaration. That came after we'd been to Xerxe and returned two days

9 later. And then we stayed in the village for about 30 days, on the

10 outskirts of the village, that is, where we buried all the people that had

11 been killed and massacred. All in all, 82 people.

12 Q. I'm going to read to you paragraph 2 on page 3. It says as

13 follows: "Throughout the day ..." so now you describe how you were hidden

14 up there for 48 hours. This is on page 3, paragraph 2. And you say:

15 "Throughout the day, I saw soldiers entering and looting all the houses of

16 valuables throughout the village. They removed satellite dishes from all

17 of the houses. During the day, 12 houses were set on fire," and so on.

18 So this means that you watched the entire day how the soldiers

19 entered the houses in the whole village.

20 A. Yes. This happened on the 26th. Throughout the day on that day,

21 they entered the houses and looted, took away all valuables and demolished

22 everything that was deemed to be demolishable.

23 Q. Please. You are now referring to the 25th. The 26th will not

24 begin until the end of that page when you say: "About 8.00 a.m. the next

25 day, my parents," and so on and so on. So what you spoke of before was

Page 6562

1 the 25th. So how was it possible for you to see from this window during

2 the course of the entire day the soldiers entering the houses and so on?

3 What were you able to see from that window?

4 A. As I've mentioned in the statement -- or I mentioned in the

5 statement everything I was able to observe throughout the day from 8.00 in

6 the morning until the evening, beginning from the first meeting with the

7 parents, then the Serbian police killing my parents, and proceeding

8 likewise until evening when I observed police and the army entering every

9 single house and burning it down. Until the hours of the evening, that

10 is.

11 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Jemini. Mr. Jemini, please take a look at your

12 statement. While you are describing what happened during the day of 25th,

13 you said: "Throughout the day, I saw soldiers entering and looting all

14 the houses." So you are being asked about that sentence, about that

15 paragraph. Is it that you watched all of that, all of what happened

16 during the day, or is it the kind of thing you've heard of?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I saw everything throughout the

18 day on the 25th.

19 JUDGE KWON: So the question is that -- whether you are able to

20 see all the village from the window of the room you were hiding in.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We had that vantage point which

22 enabled us to see not only from that window but also from other parts of

23 the roof. We could take away the tiles and be able to see what was

24 happening around the village.

25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Please go on, Mr. Milosevic.

Page 6563

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Very well. So that means that there was a military command 15

3 metres from you, a full yard of people, of soldiers, as well as the second

4 storey of the house, and yet you still take the roof tiles off the roof in

5 order to look. So weren't you afraid that you would be noticed?

6 A. Yes. However, we thought we were capable of that, and we felt

7 ourselves superior to the Serbian army which had broken up all rules and

8 sent soldiers to occupy the second floor of my house.

9 Q. All right. I'm talking about your fear now. You hid out of fear,

10 not because you wanted to be above, on a storey above. Weren't you afraid

11 to remove the roof tiles of a house in which there were a lot of troops as

12 well as a yard full of troops? Weren't you afraid of being noticed?

13 A. Yes. At that moment, fear appeared to be going away, because we

14 were expecting to be killed from moment to moment, having seen what was

15 happening around the village.

16 Q. All right. That is quite enough. Now, tell me, please, paragraph

17 1, page 3, you state there that the soldiers who were on the second floor

18 of the house in which you were hiding just a few metres above, in the

19 attic, stood guard for the rest; is that right?

20 A. Yes, that's right.

21 Q. How did you conclude that? Why would they stand guard if there

22 was nobody else in the village except for armed residents and especially

23 in view of the fact that there were no armed KLA members, as you claim it?

24 So why did they have to stand guard?

25 A. This is a fact. In fact, they thought that there was nobody. In

Page 6564

1 fact, there were two of them were only a few metres away. We were on top

2 of that. We could have done everything; we could have killed them. We

3 could have killed the command and everybody else. We didn't do that

4 because we did not believe in that kind of method in this kind of

5 civilisation.

6 Q. Were you armed?

7 A. No.

8 Q. So how could you have killed them if you were not armed, killed

9 the commander and the soldiers and so on?

10 A. There were ample opportunities to kill them. There were other

11 methods. You can't kill people using weapons alone.

12 Q. Well, what other methods were at your disposal? Could you please

13 tell us?

14 JUDGE MAY: This is all hypothetical. Mr. Milosevic, you've got

15 two minutes left. Is there anything else you want to ask this witness?

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have many more questions left.

17 And I can't see why do I have to cross-examine this kind of witness for

18 less than 40 minutes, Mr. May. He is coming out with all kinds of things

19 here.

20 JUDGE MAY: We have judged it -- we judge that 45 minutes is

21 sufficient. Now, if you have anything else to ask him, you should ask it

22 now.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have at least 30 more questions.

24 But let me try and complete this.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 6565

1 Q. You say here that specialist troops came. They had beards and

2 they had red ribbons. They were armed in a similar way. They had long

3 knives that were at least half a metre long. Does that mean they had some

4 kind of sabers?

5 A. You should know that.

6 Q. But this is what you're claiming. I don't know of these knives

7 that are more than half a metre long. That's what I'm asking you, were

8 they in fact sabers? And then you say that they saw your mother in the

9 yard and said, "Well, what are you doing there, old woman?" And at that

10 time you were hiding with your cousin in the attic. So my question is:

11 Why were you hiding under the roof when even your mother, a female

12 therefore, stood in the yard, baked the bread, and went on her normal

13 business?

14 A. It is not true that life was carrying on as normal. She had come

15 over to bring us some food. However, being aware of the plans of the

16 Serbian offensive, I told her to return and join the rest of the

17 population, to join everybody else, my wife, the children. So I wanted

18 the same of my parents. I was aware of the impending offensive of the

19 day. And my wife -- my -- excuse me. My -- correction. My mother

20 returned with her bread in her hands, and when she came, there were 12

21 Serbian police brought a truck which was driving by our yard. They saw my

22 mother, and in barbarian Serbian language, they spoke to her and she was

23 scared away.

24 JUDGE MAY: What -- we're bringing this examination to an end.

25 You're now past your time.

Page 6566

1 But tell us this, Mr. Jemini: What happened to your mother?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My mother and father and the cousins

3 were in the basement. So when my mother went there, she said she'd seen a

4 group of Serbian police. And they decided to stay or to re-enter the

5 basement. But at that very moment or 10 or 15 minutes later, police went

6 in -- Serbian military police went into the yard. They demolished all the

7 doors and decided to go inside the houses.

8 They went into the basement, seven or eight of them, and they took

9 out of the basement seven members of my family; my mother, my father, my

10 uncle, and his son with her [sic] wife. They were ordered to stay in

11 front of the houses but - you see by the photographs that have been

12 submitted as evidence - at that moment, the policeman asked my parents

13 whether they had any money. My father says yes he has got some money.

14 Where are they? In the bedroom. And -- of the building where they were.

15 And my mother says in Albanian, "What do you want of us old people? We've

16 got nothing against you, nothing against you carrying out your duties.

17 We've done nothing wrong. So please go out and carry your duties against

18 those that you think are undermining you or acting against you. So leave

19 us alone." The other policeman intervenes in Serbian and says: "You shut

20 up because nobody is asking you." The first policeman asks Muharrem, my

21 cousin, whether he has any money and he says yes. And he asked where were

22 they, and he said in the house to the rear. And without any hesitation,

23 they say they would return to their houses in order to get the money.

24 Some moments later, however, all of them were put together at the

25 house opposite, about five or six metres away, the one that is five or six

Page 6567

1 metres away, and then they make them face the wall and, from a pistol gun

2 -- a pistol arm was shot in the air first and then with an automatic gun

3 rifle, they were shot at and they fell. That is the moment when calamity

4 fell.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Please. I would like to remind you of the part of your statement,

7 page 4, paragraph 8 --

8 JUDGE MAY: We have gone past the time which we can sit and I

9 brought your cross-examination to a close. Mr. Milosevic, you must

10 concentrate on asking relevant questions, and you must stop arguing with

11 the witnesses. That way, you'll get through very much more.

12 We're going to adjourn now. I'm afraid there's no time for

13 re-examination or anything else.

14 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I was going to make this observation,

15 though, that in his 45 minutes of cross-examination of a man who says he's

16 lost and seen the loss of his parents under gunfire in a very substantial

17 alleged massacre, the accused hasn't actually put a case and the 45

18 minutes really has taken us nowhere. And I'm going to count it, for the

19 purposes of argument, as evidence that is unchallenged.

20 JUDGE MAY: We're dealing with a litigant in person. We're

21 dealing with a litigant in person, Mr. Nice, and therefore, various

22 different considerations apply.

23 Mr. Milosevic, we've -- we are adjourning now. We will deal with

24 matters in the morning on Monday.

25 Mr. Jemini, thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to

Page 6568

1 give evidence. It's now concluded. You are free to go.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to put in an objection

3 to this cross-examination, especially to what Mr. Nice just said,

4 because --

5 JUDGE MAY: You've heard our response. We have replied to

6 Mr. Nice. We're not going to take the matter any further.

7 We will adjourn now.

8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

9 to be reconvened on Monday, the 10th day of June,

10 2002, at 9.00 a.m.