Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11833

 1                          Friday, 18 October 2002

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          [The witness entered court]

 5                          --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 6            JUDGE MAY:  Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

 7            MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, if I may, before we begin, I just want

 8    to update the Chamber regarding the investigation of the threat.  With the

 9    Court's permission, we had an investigator speak to both Mr. Dulovic and

10    his wife, yesterday and this morning, and the nature of the threat was one

11    phone call to a member of Mr. Dulovic's family, and a threat of a general

12    nature and abusive language.  I want to acknowledge the prompt action

13    taken by Minister Mihajlovic and Nenad Milic of the Ministry of Interior.

14    They placed immediate guards around Mr. Dulovic's house and have

15    undertaken an investigation of the matter.  And just finally, I would say

16    I'm somewhat concerned about the chilling effect this may have had.  It

17    was reported in Belgrade as a threat against Mr. Dulovic, and that has

18    been the reason we went into closed session, and I would invite the

19    Chamber, to the extent it deems appropriate, to publicly recognise Mr.

20    Mihajlovic's commitment to ensuring that any witness who cooperates and

21    appears before the Tribunal will receive adequate protection should they

22    come under threat.

23            JUDGE MAY:  Very well.  We'll consider that.

24            Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

25                          WITNESS:  JOVAN DULOVIC [Resumed]

Page 11834

 1                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

 2                          Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]

 3       Q.  [Interpretation] We stopped at a point when we were dealing with

 4    the record of your testimony in court.  We say that -- we said, rather,

 5    that the perpetrators were treated as persons unknown.  And you mentioned

 6    a certain Dragica, and then you say, on page 5 of your statement:

 7            "I never found out exactly what the last name and first name of

 8    that woman were and where she was, but I know that she was very well known

 9    at that time in that area of Vukovar."

10            So even as far as this other person is concerned, you don't know

11    yet again who this is.  So is there anything unnatural about the fact that

12    the judiciary authorities were instituting proceedings against persons

13    unknown until the identity of the perpetrators was established?

14       A.   I did not go into that.  I said what I had to say, and I abide by

15    that.  Everybody knows Dragica.  She is from Novi Sad.  I don't know what

16    Mr. Sljivancanin said and all the rest, but it was easy to establish who

17    had done this and on whose instructions.

18       Q.   Well, you probably know, Mr. Dulovic, about the explanation that

19    was provided.  Actually, this person -- this group of prisoners was taken

20    away by citizens who were armed and who were a furious mob.  And nobody

21    justified the fact that they were killed, but weapons were used to seize

22    them from the army, from the guards who were taking care of them, and it

23    wasn't the army that did that.  Isn't that clear to you?  Or perhaps even

24    that isn't clear to you.

25       A.   It's not for me to say what is clear to me and what is not clear

Page 11835

 1    to me.  I said what I learned, what I found out, and I know that for

 2    months and months on, these people were free, even after that.

 3       Q.   Which people are you talking about?  The people from that

 4    territory, among whom you mentioned that man from Smederevo when you don't

 5    even know exactly who he is, and this woman, and you say that you never

 6    managed to find out her first and last name?  Are you talking about that?

 7       A.   The ones you are talking about, the ones who perpetrated this.

 8       Q.   Isn't it clear that this was not done by Major Sljivancanin or

 9    General Mrksic?  You say in this statement of yours --

10            JUDGE MAY:  Mr. Milosevic, you're again using this as an

11    opportunity to try and argue your case.  It's not for the witness to

12    interpret his evidence; it's for us.  Now, you can ask him what these

13    people -- about what these people said, of course, but what is clear or

14    what isn't clear from the evidence is a matter which the Tribunal will

15    have to decide and is not a matter for the witness.

16            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, Mr. May.

17            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18       Q.   You say in your statement:  "Otherwise I did not see Mrksic

19    during my stay in Vukovar.  I heard that he was only in Negoslavci.  Also,

20    I never spoke to Sljivancanin about this subject."  Do you know, for

21    example, that at the time when these events took place, Mrksic was not

22    even in Slavonia at all, he was in Belgrade?

23       A.   I said that I did not see Mrksic, that I heard that he was in

24    Negoslavci.

25       Q.   All right.  Tell me, please, Mr. Dulovic -- let's just see where

Page 11836

 1    this is.  I have to find your permit to stay in that zone.

 2            JUDGE MAY:  The Vukovar one, it's tab -- Exhibit 342, tab 1.

 3            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Vukovar, yes.  Vukovar.  Vukovar,

 4    right.

 5            JUDGE MAY:  Let the witness have the exhibit.

 6            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Right.  Here it is.  Here it is.

 7            JUDGE MAY:  Just a moment.  Let the witness have it.

 8            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

 9       Q.   Mr. Dulovic, please, in this permit of yours, it says that you are

10    allowed to stay there from the 9th of October until the 9th of November;

11    is that right?

12       A.   I did not get the right document.

13       Q.   It says up here:  "Federal Secretariat for National Defence,

14    Department for Instruction and Moral and Ethical Behaviour," and so on and

15    so forth, "Ekspres Politika, Belgrade," and so on and so forth.  That's

16    what it says here.

17            So from the 9th of October until the 9th of November; you were

18    allowed to stay there for a month.  And you are testifying about a period

19    of time when you were not there; is that right or is that not right,

20    Mr. Dulovic?

21       A.   It is not right.

22       Q.   So what's this all about?

23       A.   The point is that at first -- first of all, it says here the

24    permit's validity is extended and is -- and does not only apply to what

25    the federal secretariat granted, and then it is signed Major Petrovic, and

Page 11837

 1    there's a stamp.  It was possible to travel to Vukovar from May onwards

 2    with a journalist's ID only, and then later on, when going there, they

 3    required a permit, so that's why I had to get this --

 4       Q.   All right, Mr. Dulovic.  You made a propaganda film, and then you

 5    took some excerpts out of it.  When did you make this film?

 6       A.   1995 or 1996.  I don't know.

 7       Q.   So a few years after these events, you made this film, and then

 8    you took certain excerpts out of this material.  I have the transcript

 9    here of that rather unclear footage of that conversation with

10    Sljivancanin.  So could you please explain this to me, because I really

11    don't understand what the point is.  It says here:

12            "Nicolas Borsinger" -- no.  Illegible.  And then Sljivancanin:

13    "What's the problem?"  And then again NB says:  "I'm used to getting

14    better cooperation from the JNA, better than what I'm getting today."

15    Sljivancanin:  "Translate this for me:  'Rather than today.' What's this

16    all about?"  Then this Borsinger says:  "The colonel is aware of all the

17    problems."  Sljivancanin:   "Well, there are no problems.  Only --" and

18    then there's nothing more.  And then he says:  "The colonel is here."

19    Sljivancanin:  "I just know that some civilians --" and then the rest is

20    inaudible.  The Colonel:  "What's the problem?  The problem --  Point out

21    what the problem is.  Point out what the problem is."  Borsinger says:

22    "That's where I can see the soldiers walking down the street.  I can see

23    trucks getting in.  Look there.  Look there."  Sljivancanin says:  "Well,

24    now I've opened the bridge for traffic."  Colonel:  "So that bridge was

25    not open for traffic."  Sljivancanin:  "Because I heard there was shooting

Page 11838

 1    there.  It was closed for traffic because there was shooting there.  Did

 2    you hear about this, sir?"  Borsinger:  "My colleagues were there."

 3    Sljivancanin:  "Sir, if you're interested only in the fate of these people

 4    who were in the basement and who are provided security for by my soldiers,

 5    they are taken care of."  He says:  "They are taken care of.  And if

 6    you're not interested in the fact that my young soldiers are getting

 7    killed, those who are 18, 19, 20 years old, then you are not welcome here.

 8      And sir, my own soldiers were killed here tonight.  And sir, there is a

 9    war going on here."  Borsinger:  "I know." Sljivancanin:  "And we are

10    trying to make sure that all of you are safe and that peace is secured for

11    you, while you come to me talking of problems.  If you don't like it here,

12    feel free to go to where you like it.  And I'm very embarrassed for you to

13    treat me this way.  Whatever you asked of me, I have given you."

14            What are you proving with this?  What are you proving with this

15    episode from this film?  What's this all about?

16            JUDGE MAY:  It's not a proper question.  That is a matter --

17       A.   You're confused.

18            JUDGE MAY:  That is a matter for the Court, to determine what is

19    proved.  But what the witness can deal with is the circumstances in which

20    this conversation took place.  What was happening, Mr. Dulovic?

21            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the accused has

22    confused this film.  I did not participate in it.  He didn't listen

23    carefully when the matter was discussed in this courtroom.  This is an

24    excerpt from a different kind of footage.

25            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 11839

 1       Q.   All right.  I'm talking about this excerpt that you showed of

 2    Sljivancanin.  So I want this footage.  It doesn't matter whether it's

 3    from that film.  This is what you provided.  So what is the point?  What

 4    is the point of presenting this conversation?  Because I don't see

 5    anything in this conversation that is --

 6            JUDGE MAY:  Look, that's a matter for argument.  You can argue

 7    that to us.  The witness can't answer the question.  It's merely some

 8    footage which has been provided.

 9            But tell us, please, remind us, if you would, Mr. Dulovic:  What

10    was happening that morning between the Red Cross and Major Sljivancanin?

11    Can you help us to that?

12            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  First of all, I did not

13    participate in the filming that is being referred to now.  This was filmed

14    by another crew, a TV crew.  I listened to Mr. Sljivancanin, and I still

15    have a few sentences when he was giving these explanations to the

16    gentlemen from the Red Cross, that he would not let him in because this is

17    a war zone and there's a war going on and there are armed Ustashas there,

18    and something to that effect.  As for this part, I was not there next to

19    him when he said what is recorded in this particular footage.

20            JUDGE MAY:  And when -- just a moment.  To clarify matters, when

21    you say he wouldn't let the Red Cross in, where were the Red Cross seeking

22    access to?

23            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the very entrance into the

24    hospital.  So not in the hospital, but this is in front of the entrance

25    into the hospital, about five or six metres in front.  This is a different

Page 11840

 1    scene, the one that is referred to here in this footage.

 2            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

 3       Q.   Are you trying to say, Mr. Dulovic, that this scene that is

 4    recorded here has nothing to do with what you've been testifying about?

 5       A.   No, that's not correct.  It does have something to do with it.

 6    This lasted much longer.  I simply said what I heard when he was speaking.

 7    He was shouting, Major Sljivancanin was, quite a bit, on that occasion.

 8    As for the details of his conversation with the gentleman from the Red

 9    Cross, I am not aware of them, but he was shouting this for the sake of

10    the public, because there were quite a few journalists around.

11       Q.   He was shouting for the sake of the public and explaining that his

12    soldiers were being killed and that he did everything that he asked him to

13    do?

14       A.   That's my impression.

15       Q.   All right.  Now let's go back to what I mentioned, your film.

16    Since you made that propaganda film in 1995, as you put it yourself --

17       A.   I don't remember.

18            JUDGE MAY:  That question involved an implied criticism, it may

19    be, and you should have the chance to deal with it.  What is said is that

20    it was a propaganda film.  Is that a true characterisation or not?

21            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time I see this

22    film here.  I first saw this film here, or rather, this particular scene.

23    Perhaps it was broadcast on television too, but I don't know.  I don't

24    know who recorded it.

25            JUDGE MAY:  There may be a misunderstanding, which I could quite

Page 11841

 1    understand.  As I understand the accused, he's talking about the longer

 2    film which you made, or we were told you had made, about the Yellow Wasps.

 3    I think that's what he's talking about.  He was describing it as a

 4    propaganda film.

 5            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  No, that's not true.  What I

 6    saw was the truth, and also what I saw in the courtroom when the trial of

 7    the Yellow Wasps was held.  And then there's also the interview of Vojin

 8    Vuckovic, and these other scenes.  As for this part, I didn't work on it.

 9    This was taken by the director from some other material that had been made

10    public.  So I did not discuss the subject with him, this particular

11    excerpt that refers to Sljivancanin.

12            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13       Q.   Mr. Dulovic, you are testifying about some cooperation of mine in

14    1991 and 1992 with Vojislav Seselj.  As you know, he was in opposition.

15    So I would like you to comment for me upon this letter that I got through

16    my associates.  It has to do with you and also your predecessor from the

17    same news magazine.  I'm not going to read the whole thing, although it's

18    a one-page letter, and it's handwritten, so it's basically one third of a

19    typewritten page.  It says:

20            "Both of them are invoking some alleged statements of mine post

21    festum.  Possibly given during the time of a fierce propaganda war between

22    the Serb Radical Party and the Socialist Party of Serbia in intervals

23    between my two stints in prison.  Such statements, where the passionate

24    protagonists of a political conflict are competing in mutual accusations

25    can never be a source of the truth."

Page 11842












12  Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13  English transcripts.













Page 11843

 1            And then it says:

 2            "Mr. Milosevic, I remind you that you and I first net on the 27th

 3    of February, 1992, at the meeting of the National Assembly of Serbia and

 4    we only shook hands then," which is true.  When I came to parliament, I

 5    shook hands with the people who were closest to me physically around

 6    there.  I shook hands with the MPs who were around me.  And then I quote:

 7            "We did not talk."  Of course, that's true.  "Our first

 8    conversation was in May 1992, namely, about the coming federal elections.

 9    We never discussed war operations or sending volunteers.  The Serb radical

10    party directly sent all its volunteers to JNA units and they all met up at

11    the Bubanj Potok barracks.  All these volunteers were regular soldiers of

12    the JNA and their service in wartime was recorded in their military IDs.

13    A smaller number of volunteers was within the Territorial Defence of the

14    SAO Slavonia, Baranja and Western Srem, and later on in the army of

15    Republika Srpska.  The Srpska Radical Party never had any paramilitary

16    formations.  I am prepared, Mr. Milosevic, to testify truthfully about all

17    wartime events, and I'm surprised that The Hague Prosecutor considers me

18    to be inaccessible.  As soon as I get official summons, I'm coming.

19    Respectfully yours, Vojislav Seselj."  Signed yesterday.

20            So --

21            JUDGE MAY:  [Previous translation continues]... what Vojislav

22    Seselj says in a letter.  I don't suppose the witness can comment on it,

23    but we will ask him.

24            MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, just two things:  One, I would ask that

25    that letter be marked, and if Mr. Milosevic doesn't wish to introduce it

Page 11844

 1    into evidence, the Prosecution would ask that it be preserved.  One, for

 2    two reasons:  I believe it is an important piece of evidence, in and of

 3    itself.  Secondly, I'm quite concerned --

 4            JUDGE MAY:  I must tell you, it hasn't been our practice so far to

 5    exhibit the various statements which Mr. Milosevic has relied on, for the

 6    very good reason that they're not evidence; they're merely material which

 7    he's putting forward.  And the danger of doing it, if I may say, is that

 8    you may want to have this one marked, but there may be a great many which

 9    you wouldn't wish to have marked as evidence.  Anyway, we'll consider

10    that.

11            MR. GROOME:  The point I wish to make, Your Honour, regarding this

12    particular piece is I'm concerned that how did Mr. Seselj know what this

13    witness testified to yesterday when it was a closed session?  That piece

14    of video was shown in closed session, and now we have a response from Mr.

15    Seselj 24 hours later.  That causes me some concern, especially in the

16    light of events of yesterday.

17            JUDGE MAY:  Well, Mr. Milosevic, can you help us to that?

18            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, please, Mr. May.  First of

19    all, I will answer your questions only when I am a witness, but I will

20    answer now.  Please respect your own rules.  For the sake of brevity, I

21    did not read out the beginning.  It says:

22            "Dear Mr. Milosevic, I am amazed by the false testimony of two

23    journalists of the journal Vreme, Dejan Anastasijevic and Jovan Dulovic.

24    They showed themselves long ago to be agents of Western intelligence

25    services."

Page 11845

 1            Then he goes on to say what I quoted.  They both refer to

 2    statements I allegedly made post festum which I may have made at the time

 3    of a fierce propaganda war.  This was a major clash between the Socialist

 4    Party and the Serb Radical Party.  They were attacking me, and of course

 5    he wanted to harm me, harm me as much as he could with these statements.

 6    So this is what he says, referring to both witnesses.  And what is

 7    important here is that there is no basis for the stories they tell about

 8    volunteers and so on.  I saw this man for the first time only a year

 9    later, and we talked for the first time even longer after that, and the

10    topic of our conversation was the elections.  We never discussed -- no one

11    from the government ever discussed from anyone from the opposition whether

12    they were sending volunteers or not.  This refers to both witnesses, and I

13    can give you this letter for you to look at.  Here it is.

14                          [Trial Chamber confers]

15            JUDGE MAY:  Was this part in open session, what Seselj said?

16            MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, this video was played towards the end of

17    the direct examination yesterday, during closed session.  I can check,

18    Your Honour, but I'm --

19            JUDGE KWON:  It was done on 16th of October, day 110, and I guess

20    it was in open session.

21            MR. GROOME:  The first video, I know, was played -- the Vukovar

22    video was played the first day.  I will check, Your Honour.

23            JUDGE MAY:  It was the Seselj video, which came towards the end of

24    his evidence, if my recollection is right, which suggests it was in closed

25    session.

Page 11846

 1            MR. GROOME:  That's my recollection as well, Your Honour.  I can

 2    check my notes.

 3            JUDGE KWON:  Could you check the page 11680.

 4            MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

 5            JUDGE KWON:  Line 21.

 6                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 7            JUDGE MAY:  Well, the registrar points out that the exhibit may

 8    have been public, and was public, and wasn't under seal.  Now, that may be

 9    right.  But let us not spend time on this now.  It's something which can

10    be determined.

11            Just a moment, Mr. Milosevic.

12            The application is that this should be a document which is

13    exhibited.  So the first question is for you, Mr. Milosevic:  Do you

14    object to that?

15            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Are you referring to Seselj's

16    letter?

17            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.

18            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Oh, yes.  You can have it.  You can

19    have it.  Of course you can.

20            JUDGE MAY:  One moment.  Before we deal with it, we'll decide

21    whether to admit it or not.

22            Mr. Dulovic, you've been sitting there patiently while all this

23    has been going on.  Is there anything you would like to say about what's

24    been read out to you?  You should have the opportunity to answer.

25            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  First of all, this film was a

Page 11847

 1    documentary film.  It was made as a documentary film.

 2            Secondly, when we are talking about the army and about volunteers,

 3    I wish to tell you that I investigated this, and I know for certain that

 4    members of the Radical Party, of Mr. Seselj's party, volunteered.  They

 5    volunteered in their local Radical Party boards, where lists were drawn

 6    up.  Then these lists of names were sent to the republic Ministry of the

 7    Interior, the police, to be checked.  I don't know what sort of check

 8    exactly it was, whether they checked whether these people had criminal

 9    records or whether it was something else that was checked.  After this,

10    the lists were sent back to the municipal boards, which then sent call-up

11    notes to those volunteers who had been accepted.  After this, the

12    volunteers went to military training ground near Belgrade, called Bubanj

13    Potok, where they were trained for a time.  They were trained as soldiers,

14    they received military training.  From there, the state transported them

15    to wherever they were needed as soldiers, and then they were issued with

16    weapons.

17            What I saw is, for example, an event in Vukovar, where this man

18    Kameni was.  He was the leader of one such unit which was stationed

19    nearby, but it had its own command, its own leader.  When needed, however,

20    they were used for certain operations.  This does not mean, by any means,

21    that they did not act independently, without any control by the army, for

22    example, to do what they did.

23            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24       Q.   Mr. Dulovic --

25       A.   Just a moment.  I forgot to mention that these people never

Page 11848

 1    underwent any kind of medical examination, so that I am sure that I saw

 2    men who were -- who would never have been accepted in a regular army after

 3    a psychiatric check-up.  There were people like that.

 4       Q.   Mr. Dulovic, you could have seen anyone in the war theatre, but if

 5    you're talking about volunteers who joined the Yugoslav National Army,

 6    then they were soldiers of the JNA and not paramilitary formations.  And

 7    Mr. Seselj says here:

 8            "The Serbian Radical Party never had paramilitary formations."

 9       A.   That is not correct.

10       Q.   Very well.  You probably know better.  I'm just saying what he

11    writes here.  Do you remember that the standpoint taken by our country was

12    always categorically against any sort of paramilitary units because we

13    considered them to be thieves, looters, and not military units?

14       A.   I wouldn't agree with this.

15       Q.   Very well, Mr. Dulovic.

16            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please bear in mind that we've

17    wasted a lot of time, quite unnecessarily, with these discussions which

18    were not initiated by me, so please take account of the time.

19            JUDGE MAY:  Mr. Milosevic, you're not going to get away with that.

20    These kind of comments are wholly out of order.  These are important

21    issues which you raised, you read out Seselj's letter.  You can't then be

22    surprised when it's clarified.  You may not like the answers, but they're

23    the answers which the witness has given.  Now, the Chamber will consider

24    whether we're going to exhibit this particular letter or not.

25                          [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 11849

 1            JUDGE MAY:  We're not going to admit this letter, but we are going

 2    to mark it for identification since there is an issue as to whether it was

 3    or was not obtained in circumstances or sent in circumstances when

 4    evidence was adduced in closed session.  Now, it may or -- that may or may

 5    not be the case, but the upshot is that we will exhibit it, but for that

 6     -- I mean mark it for identification, but for that limited purpose.

 7            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May --

 8            JUDGE MAY:  Just a moment.  Let the registrar ...

 9            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, it will be marked for identification

10    as Defence Exhibit 55.

11            JUDGE MAY:  Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

12            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I don't want to waste time.

13    I asked my associates to ask Mr. Seselj where and when he gave such an

14    interview, which must be false because he couldn't have talked about this;

15    I never even knew the man at the time.  So --

16            JUDGE MAY:  Mr. Milosevic, we shall have [Previous translation

17    continues]... the evidence.  If you want to add anything else, do, by way

18    of explanation.

19            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's why I'm saying there's no

20    need to investigate whether it was in open or closed session.  It was in

21    closed session yesterday, but I was amazed that someone could talk such

22    nonsense, so I asked that this be checked, whether Seselj ever gave such

23    an interview or not.  And you've heard his explanation.  At the time when

24    there were clashes between the Socialist Party and the Serbian Radical

25    Party, when he, as a politician, thought it was not his duty to tell the

Page 11850

 1    truth but to harm his opponent as much as possible, that's when he said

 2    this.  And it's true that at the time I didn't even know him.  He goes on

 3    to say that they never had paramilitary units.

 4            So what I said, Mr. May, about the time is not because I don't

 5    like the witness's replies, but because I don't want us to waste too much

 6    time which will then prevent me from putting other questions to the

 7    witness.  My remark was about the time and not about what the witness was

 8    saying, and it's obviously what sort of things he's saying.  That's

 9    obvious.

10            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11       Q.   Mr. Dulovic, please, you returned to Belgrade after this --

12            JUDGE MAY:  Let the registrar say something.

13            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, it will be marked for identification

14    as D55, but it will also be under seal, confidential.

15            JUDGE MAY:  Very well.

16            Yes.

17            MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I feel I must just note for the record

18    that it seems what Mr. Milosevic has just told us is that after the events

19    of yesterday morning, after this man expressing fear that some of the

20    people he would testify about yesterday were the ones he feared the most,

21    to then take information from a closed session and communicate that to the

22    very person --

23            JUDGE MAY:  I don't interpret it that way, and I'm not going to go

24    into an examination now.  It's perfectly possible that he spoke to his

25    associates at the end of the first day, which, of course, was in open

Page 11851












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Page 11852

 1    session.

 2            Yes.

 3            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, whatever happened and

 4    whatever kind of session, I suppose I have the right to ask someone who is

 5    said to have said something, whether he actually said it and whether this

 6    is true or not.  I suppose I have that right.

 7            It's not about Dulovic or anything else; it's about an interview

 8    given by a man who was then asked what this was about.

 9            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10       Q.   Mr. Dulovic, you say -- or rather, you mentioned first one person

11    and then another person, in connection with the events in Vukovar and

12    Ovcara, and after that, you returned to Belgrade.  It doesn't matter what

13    day it was, but after five, ten, or fifteen days - it doesn't matter - you

14    returned to Belgrade.  When you came back to Belgrade, did you go to

15    report what you saw and heard to anyone?

16       A.   No, I didn't.

17       Q.   Very well, Mr. Dulovic, but as a journalist reporting on the

18    courts and the judiciary, you should have known that you were supposed to

19    report this to some sort of organ.

20       A.   These organs were in the field.  It would have been stupid for me

21    to go and report something that the people who were in charge of this

22    could have seen for themselves.

23       Q.   Do you think the army had anything to do with these events?

24       A.   I don't think anything.  I'm just saying what I saw.  My personal

25    opinion is irrelevant.

Page 11853

 1       Q.   You say, in the last passage, that an order came that all

 2    volunteers should be disarmed.

 3       A.   I didn't say that.  You should read this more carefully.

 4       Q.   Here is the last paragraph, page 6:  "On the following day, an

 5    order was issued to all volunteers to hand in their weapons."

 6       A.   Correct.  The Vukovar operation was over.  They were no longer

 7    needed.  They handed back their weapons and returned home.  So it was not

 8    that they were disarmed but that they returned the weapons they had been

 9    issued.  But this has nothing to do with the event in Ovcara.

10       Q.   Well, I connected it with this because in the next passage after

11    the one where you mention Ovcara, you say:

12            "On the following day, an order was put out for all volunteers to

13    hand in their weapons."

14       A.   The two things have no connection with each other.

15       Q.   Very well, Mr. Vukovic [as interpreted], I'm just reading out from

16    your statement.  I suppose that this was a response by these organs in the

17    field to what you were saying.

18       A.   Your assumption is wrong.

19       Q.   How do you know that this was not so?

20       A.   Because all the units all around Vukovar, even those that had

21    nothing to do with Ovcara, had to hand their weapons back because they

22    were no longer needed.  There was no longer any fighting.

23       Q.   Very well.  That's what you're explaining now, but your statement

24    says something different.

25       A.   No, it doesn't say something different.

Page 11854

 1       Q.   Now, to save time, you spoke about an exchange.  Do you know about

 2    an exchange that took place in March 1992, when 41 persons were taken over

 3    from the Croatian side and they were exchanged for a group of 380 members

 4    of the paramilitary formations of Croatia because the army at that time

 5    agreed to accept this exchange all for all, and that this exchange took

 6    place at the end of March 1992?  Do you know what was done with these

 7    people who had been taken into custody?

 8       A.   No.

 9       Q.   All right.  I'm not going to ask you about that, then.  They were

10    mostly civilians.  Some of them were women.  The youngest person was 24,

11    the oldest one was 73.  I'm not going to read you all this, but it would

12    be a good thing if you acquainted yourself with the matter.  Perhaps it

13    would be more difficult for you to speak about the good treatment that the

14    Serbs were accorded in Vukovar.

15       A.   That's not what I said; that's what they said.

16       Q.   All right, Mr. Dulovic.  Of three -- if you have three witnesses

17    of one event, you will get three different descriptions of the event, and

18    I'm sure you know that as a journalist attending court cases.

19            But we have very little time, so I'll have to focus on the part of

20    your statement relating to Bosnia.  You followed the events in Zvornik,

21    and you explained that you came to Zvornik, that it was dangerous when you

22    arrived, and that you went back to Mali Zvornik straight away.  And you

23    say that, over there, there were paramilitaries stationed for the most

24    part.  You go on to say that afterwards - so the 10th of May - there was a

25    plaque reading "Republika Srpska" on it, and on the bridge there were

Page 11855

 1    members of the regular federal police force and the police force of the

 2    Republic of Serbia.  The police of the Republic of Serbia, I assume you

 3    saw just at the border crossing.  Is that right, Mr. Dulovic?

 4       A.   Is that a question?

 5       Q.   I said:  The members of the police force of Republika Srpska, you

 6    were able to see only along the border crossing; is that right?

 7       A.   Well, if that was the border crossing where I had seen them, then

 8    that's it.

 9       Q.   Well, the bridge over the River Drina between Mali Zvornik and

10    Veliki Zvornik.  Mali Zvornik is in Serbia and the other Zvornik - it's

11    not called Big Zvornik, it's just Zvornik - that's in Bosnia, right?

12       A.   Well, I was not aware that that was a border crossing, nor did

13    anybody ask me for my passport.

14       Q.   Well, all right.  Not to say the border crossing.  What I'm

15    talking about is the bridge between Serbia and Bosnia-Herzegovina.

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   So it was only on that bridge that you were able to see policemen

18    belonging to the police force of the Republic of Serbia.  I assume you

19    didn't see them in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

20       A.   Yes, that's right.  I couldn't have seen those people who were on

21    the bridge over there in Bosnia as well.

22       Q.   Well, did you see any policemen of the Republic of Serbia on the

23    other side, in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

24       A.   You mean in uniform?

25       Q.   I mean our own policemen, policemen from Serbia.  Did you see them

Page 11856

 1    in Bosnia-Herzegovina at all?

 2       A.   No.

 3       Q.   What I want to -- that's what I want to clear up.  They were on

 4    the territory of Serbia, which it is their job to be, and you say that

 5    they didn't allow anybody crossing in with weapons.  What else could they

 6    have done?

 7       A.   Well, that's absolutely right.  There's nothing that I challenge

 8    there.

 9       Q.   Did you learn at the time that they told you in Serbia that there

10    were a lot of criminals and bandits in Zvornik and that it was very

11    dangerous for you to go there at all?

12       A.   Yes, that's right.

13       Q.   Is it logical, then, that the police force on the bridge from

14    Serbia, on a bridge linking Serbia to Bosnia, where there was a great deal

15    of violence, would prevent anybody entering carrying weapons?  And

16    regardless of the fact that Yugoslavia was still in existence, you didn't

17    need a passport, you're quite right there, but the police does have the

18    discretionary right to prevent anybody from passing if they consider them

19    to be suspect and ask what they want to do in Serbia.

20       A.   Yes, quite right, but there's a very significant detail here.

21    They didn't allow Vojin Vuckovic and his own people, that is to say,

22    Seselj's unit, for whom you say yourself was under the auspices of the

23    JNA.  So that particular unit, whether they were looters or not, they were

24    registered as a unit called the Yellow Wasps, led by Major Dusan Vojin

25    Vuckovic, who, as he told me, was an instructor in the federal police

Page 11857

 1    force.

 2       Q.   Please, Mr. Dulovic.  I did not tell you that he was under the

 3    patronage of the JNA.  The federal police force arrested members of these

 4    Yellow Wasps.  Do you know that?  Do you know that the police actually

 5    arrested any member of the Yellow Wasps?

 6       A.   Well, quite a long time after the end.

 7       Q.   Could you tell me how long after?

 8       A.   Well, several years.

 9       Q.   You said that this trial of Vuckovic's was in 1996; isn't that

10    right?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   And as the trial was in 1996, I suppose you assume that it was

13    because somebody just took it into his mind for political reasons in 1996

14    to launch proceedings and bring the person to trial; is that your

15    explanation?

16       A.   No.  My explanation is that what they wanted was to show that we

17    in Serbia were capable of bringing war criminals to trial.  And that was a

18    complete fiasco.

19       Q.   And this -- somebody suddenly took this into their minds in 1996;

20    is that it?

21       A.   Yes, that's it.

22       Q.   All right, Mr. Dulovic.  I have here -- it says "The Republic of

23    Serbia."  This is a court file.  The Republic of Serbia, the district

24    public prosecutor.  The town is Sabac, because that's where it took place.

25    The investigating judge of the district court in Sabac.  And then it

Page 11858

 1    says: "Criminal Report, Vuckovic Dusko, nicknamed Repic, from Umka, and

 2    Vuckovic Vojin, from Umka, et cetera, et cetera, who their mother and

 3    father was, and then why the accusations are being made, what the charges

 4    are.  And it says:  "During the civil war in the former Republic of

 5    Bosnia-Herzegovina, violating the laws of international warfare during the

 6    war, perpetrated killings and torture of the civilian population."  And

 7    then it goes on to state the following:

 8            "On the 10th of June, 1992, in the cultural centre in Celopek

 9    where a large number of civilians were being detained from Divice.  He

10    tortured these individuals by organising a box match between these

11    individuals, promising that the stronger one would be spared his life."

12            And then Cikaric Enes from Divice as well, he cut off his ear and

13    then proceeded to shoot from a small-calibre pistol at these persons.

14    Some of them were killed on the spot and others were wounded.  He would

15    pierce their hearts and kill them in that way.  So that he killed, in

16    total, 17 persons, and these persons, it says here, were then transported

17    by him to the quarry and took another four individuals to load out the

18    bodies, and he killed those four persons too from a small-calibre rifle.

19            So he stands accused of 21 murders and previous tortures of these

20    same individuals.  I assume that you know all about that.

21       A.   Yes, I know it in all its details.

22       Q.   It appears that there's just one small point that seems to have

23    elapsed -- that seems to have escaped you in what you have said.  The date

24    is 1993.  The year is 1993, Mr. Dulovic, and not 1996.  Because nobody

25    took it into their minds to do this in 1996, to bring people to justice.

Page 11859

 1    The date on this document is 1993, and I tender it into evidence.

 2            Not only is this correct, but the reliability of this witness is

 3    brought into question because he claims that this was in 1996.

 4       A.   I said I thought it was in 1996 because it was a long time ago.

 5            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  Please take this

 6    document --

 7            JUDGE MAY:  We'll consider that point, as to the significance of

 8    1993 and 1996.

 9            Yes.  Let the document be exhibited.

10            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, the point is not even in

11    that particular matter of whether it was 1996 or 1993.  It speaks of the

12    exactness of the testimony, and in Serbia, war crimes were prosecuted.  It

13    was not that the crimes were made little of.  It says that he killed 17

14    persons, plus the other four that helped him carry the dead bodies.  It

15    specifies the torture that he resorted to.  So it is quite obvious that

16    nobody wanted to hide anything when it comes to criminals of this type.

17            JUDGE MAY:  Exhibit number, please.

18            THE REGISTRAR:  It will be Defence Exhibit D56, under seal,

19    confidential.

20                          [Trial Chamber confers]

21            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.

22            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23       Q.   Just to clear this up.  So you saw the Yellow Wasps.  They were an

24    ordinary paramilitary unit which had nothing to do with either the army or

25    the police force of Republika Srpska or the army of Republika Srpska; is

Page 11860












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Page 11861

 1    that right or not?

 2       A.   I don't know.  All I know is that they were wearing regular

 3    camouflage uniforms, all of them were armed, and they looked like an

 4    official army except for their long hair, untidy hair, and things like

 5    that, and the caps they wore.

 6       Q.   All right, Mr. Dulovic.  I have understood you to say that the

 7    Serbs over there had taken control of Zvornik and that there was no

 8    violence committed and that they weren't in any danger.  That was what you

 9    wanted to say in your testimony, as far as I understood you.  Is that

10    right?

11       A.   No, it's not.  That's not right.  That's not what I'm claiming.

12       Q.   Well, tell me:  How did the clash come about in Zvornik to begin

13    with, and whether you know anything at all about the violence that was

14    committed against the Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina after those decisions to

15    leave behind Cutilheiro's plan, and after the Croatian regular army had

16    crossed the River Sava, stormed the area after the killing of civilians by

17    the Croatian and Muslim armed forces.

18       A.   I was not there when it all began, nor do I know what you're

19    talking about.  I wasn't there.

20       Q.   All right.  I'm going to mention just something with respect to

21    the Zvornik municipality, which is where you were and what you're

22    testifying about, and I'm also going to mention, as this is a long list of

23    persons killed, I'm going to mention just the women and only the women who

24    were killed during the period of time that you yourself were there, Mr.

25    Dulovic.

Page 11862

 1            For example:  Stojanka Grujic, Gornje Bajlkovice, the Zvornik

 2    municipality, husband's name Uros, born in 1936, killed at the beginning

 3    of May, 1992.  You arrived on the 10th.  She was killed on the 9th, when

 4    the Muslim army stormed her village.  The body was found lying by the

 5    house in which she lived.

 6            Then again, the next one, Mica Zaric, 56 years of age, killed on

 7    the 6th of May, when the Muslims attacked Gornje Baljkovica.

 8            Then again, Ulika Kojic was killed, 67 years old, also at the

 9    beginning of May 1992.

10            Then the next one is N. Mitrovic.  She was killed.  Her husband's

11    name was Bora, from the Srpski Nezuk village of the Zvornik municipality,

12    on the 6th of May, 1992, by members of the Muslim armed forces.

13            Then we have Ljeposava Mitrovic, 45 years old, also killed on the

14    6th of May by the Muslim forces in the village of Gornji Ba.

15            And so on and so on.  So I'm just reading the names of the women

16    who were killed.  Another one here:  N. Savic, the wife of Milos Savic

17    from the village of Boskovici in the municipality of Zvornik, killed on

18    the 5th of May, 1992, when the Muslims attacked her village.

19            Savic Simka from Gornje Baljkovica, 65 years of age, killed on the

20    9th of May when the Muslims attacked her village.

21            There are many other women here on this list.  I can't read them

22    all out.  And on this list of persons killed, men, there are 118 who were

23    killed in the Zvornik municipality alone, in which you claim that it was

24    the Serbs who attacked the innocent Muslims and then caused a war of some

25    kind to break out.

Page 11863

 1            JUDGE MAY:  [Previous translation continues]... all he's

 2    describing.

 3            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, Your Honour, please.

 4            JUDGE MAY:  Did you see any of these women killed, Mr. Dulovic?

 5            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  This happened in some villages

 6    that -- I wasn't in those villages.  I was in quite another place, not

 7    where these people had been killed.

 8            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

 9       Q.   All right, Mr. Dulovic.  I'm telling you, for example, that we

10    have here -- there are a lot of them, but I have 118 names of Serbs who

11    were killed in the Zvornik municipality.  I understood you to say that the

12    Serbs went there to kill the Muslims.

13            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.  Did you say that, Mr. Dulovic?

14            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Never.

15            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16       Q.   Do you know, Mr. Dulovic, of anyone, any one of these killers on

17    the Muslim side, did you ever hear of any one of them, and did you hear

18    about the crimes that they had committed over the Serbian population in

19    the Zvornik municipality?  Because you're talking about Zvornik.

20       A.   I'm talking about the town of Zvornik, not the Zvornik

21    municipality, because the municipality includes the villages, and I'm only

22    talking about a part of the town of Zvornik, at that.

23       Q.   Well, I have a whole list of people who were killed in Zvornik

24    proper, lots of them too.  But what I'm asking you is whether you heard

25    anything about that.

Page 11864

 1       A.   No.

 2       Q.   I have here 38 names of the perpetrators of crimes against Serbs

 3    in the municipality of Zvornik alone, but as you have not heard about any

 4    of this, what about Hajrudin Mesic, nicknamed Labud, from Teocak, who

 5    organised the killing of civilians in the Zvornik municipality between May

 6    1992 and August 1993?

 7       A.   No, I did not hear about that.

 8       Q.   All right.  Fine.  It would take too long to read out all 38

 9    names.  You say you haven't heard about any people who committed crimes in

10    the Zvornik municipality.

11       A.   No.  That was not something that was talked about at the time.

12    Perhaps later on.

13       Q.   But, Mr. Dulovic, you are claiming, you are asserting, that the

14    Muslim crimes in the Zvornik municipality that you are testifying about

15    were the fruits of Serbian propaganda that the papers wrote about and not

16    the facts that I am bringing to light here before you now.

17            JUDGE MAY:  [Previous translation continues]... where did the

18    witness say that?  What part of his evidence are you referring to?

19            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I heard him say into the

20    microphone, here in this courtroom - I can't quote the line now or passage

21    of his testimony - but I heard him say that there was nothing there,

22    actually; it was just all Serbian propaganda and the way they wanted to

23    incite the war there, fan the flames of war.

24            JUDGE MAY:  This isn't limited to Zvornik; you're now talking

25    generally, are you?  That -- because it's right that he did give evidence

Page 11865

 1    about Serb propaganda, generally, and its incitement.  What he said was it

 2    was inciting people, or that was the effect of it, to war, or inciting

 3    fear in them, and it was all propaganda.  Now, you want to ask him a

 4    question about that, do you?

 5            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I cannot understand that to

 6    incite people, if you publish the killing of elderly persons, women,

 7    children, civilians, peasants, farmers.  The papers are free entities,

 8    they can publish what they like.  Is there anybody who can order a paper

 9    not to publish and print what it likes?

10            JUDGE MAY:  His evidence was, Mr. Milosevic, that there were

11    stories which were untrue which were being published.  If you want to ask

12    him about that, of course you can.

13            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I asked him a question.  I

14    said:  How can he claim that there -- that all this did not happen,

15    everything that I am reading out now, and that it was all the fruit of

16    Serb fabrications, when matters were actually quite different, the

17    situation was quite different?

18            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is quite the wrong

19    interpretation of what I had been saying.  I did not deny -- I just say I

20    don't know about the victims that you have just spoken about.  When I

21    spoke about propaganda, I spoke in general terms about the propaganda that

22    was being launched.  It was euphoric.  I don't want to quote examples now,

23    but lots of things were written in the papers.  They said that in Bosnia

24    the animals in zoos were being fed with Serb children, babies, and that

25    people were killed -- children were killed because there was a lack of

Page 11866

 1    oxygen in other places.  And large-scale fabrications of this kind to

 2    incite and nurture nationalistic feelings, extreme nationalistic feelings,

 3    which brought us to what we all know happened.

 4            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

 5       Q.   Mr. Dulovic, you know that our policies and politics were quite

 6    different.  Let me quote an example from the area you were in.  Do you

 7    know that in Mali Zvornik, which means on the territory of Serbia, across

 8    the Drina River, and you said that it was 50 metres wide at that time --

 9       A.   Well, I didn't measure the river, but that's it about, more or

10    less.

11       Q.   So Mali Zvornik, if the Drina is 50 metres wide - it could be 150

12    metres, it doesn't matter how wide the Drina River is at that particular

13    point - but the time that you're talking about, there were 20 per cent

14    Muslims living there.  The population in Mali Zvornik was 20 per cent

15    Muslim.  And that this figure was never reduced.  On the contrary; it

16    increased, because some Muslims had crossed over onto the territory of

17    Serbia, and nothing ever happened to a single Muslims on Serbian

18    territory.

19            And the number of Muslims in Mali Zvornik today is greater than it

20    was ten years ago.  And the figure was greater in 1996 as well.  Once the

21    peace had been signed in Dayton in 1995, there were more Muslims than

22    there were in 1991, in fact, when the war began there.  Do you know about

23    that?  Are you aware of that, Mr. Dulovic?

24       A.   No, I don't.

25       Q.   So you don't know about that?

Page 11867

 1       A.   I don't say that that is not the case, but I'm not aware of it.

 2    I'm hearing this for the first time from you.

 3       Q.   Well, how, then, is it possible and what was the cause of that,

 4    that only a few hundred metres across the Drina, Serbs should be setting

 5    fire to Muslim houses, whereas this was never attempted in the Republic of

 6    Serbia proper?

 7            JUDGE MAY:  This is all argument from you, and you do this all the

 8    time.  The witnesses give their evidence of what they saw and heard, and

 9    you try and argue with them, and it's all a waste of time, a waste of the

10    Court's time.  Now, ask him about his evidence, what he saw and heard.

11    That's what he's giving evidence about, not your arguments about why the

12    Serbs were doing all this and why the Muslims were.  He's not given

13    evidence about that.

14            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, the witness said here and

15    now, if you were listening to him, two minutes ago, that what had been

16    organised was a media campaign of inciting hatred against the Muslims,

17    which is a flagrant lie, because had there been such a campaign, how would

18    he explain the fact that 50 metres across the Drina no Muslim was hurt in

19    any way and that the number of Muslims even went up rather than down over

20    those ten years.

21            JUDGE MAY:  Ask him about the campaign instead of arguing about

22    it.  That is what he says about it, that this was a propaganda campaign in

23    which lies were told and fabrications were uttered in order to incite the

24    population.

25            Now, if you say it's not true, if you say, for instance, that

Page 11868

 1    there was no -- just a moment.  If you say there was no story that the

 2    animals were fed with children, this kind of thing, if you say it's not

 3    true, challenge it.  Put it to the witness it's not true.

 4            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, the newspapers from all

 5    sides wrote all kinds of despicable things.  I'm not going into all of

 6    that.  I'm just asking him whether he can put these facts into a logical

 7    context in relation to his assertion that there was warmongering against

 8    the Muslims, and nothing happened to Muslims in Serbia during the war.  As

 9    a matter of fact, Mr. May, we took in 70.000 Muslim refugees from Bosnia

10    during the war.

11            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12       Q.   Do you know that, Mr. Dulovic?

13       A.   No.

14            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] He did answer.  He said no.

15            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Would you put a question to me.

16            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17       Q.   Your answer was no.  I have another one.

18       A.   No.  The first one where you said that I said no, what did I say?

19    Can I read this?  What is this that you asked?

20            JUDGE MAY:  Well, let's not go over this again.  Mr. Milosevic, no

21    wonder the witness -- the witness is confused.  Now, have you another

22    question for him?  Let's get on to another topic.  Time is short.

23            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I asked you -- I'm reading from the

24    transcript now - I asked you precisely about that, that there was no

25    propaganda against the Muslims because nothing happened to a single Muslim

Page 11869












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Page 11870

 1    in Serbia, because had there been propaganda, then something would have

 2    happened to them.  And as a matter of fact, we took in 70.000 Muslim

 3    refugees from Bosnia during the war.

 4            JUDGE MAY:  What is the point of repeating what you've already

 5    said and making a speech?

 6            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone.

 7            JUDGE MAY:  Now, Mr. Milosevic, you've been told more than once:

 8    The purpose of cross-examination is not to argue your case.  You can do

 9    that in due course.  But not to waste the Court's time by constant

10    argument. Now, have you questions for the witness?

11            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12       Q.   Mr. Dulovic, do you know that in the area around Mali Zvornik --

13    I'm talking about the territory of the Republic of Serbia now.  And I

14    consider myself to be responsible for that, that is to say, the territory

15    of Serbia.  I was president of Serbia.  That in the area around Mali

16    Zvornik are a few villages that are purely Muslim, and in them, no one was

17    ever disturbed, although the Drina is only 50 metres wide, and on the

18    other side there was a civil war that was raging?

19       A.   I don't know.

20       Q.   Do you know that in Mali Zvornik there is also a mosque, because

21    Muslims live there, and that this mosque was never damaged or were ugly

22    words written on it, or was it threatened in any other way?  Do you know

23    that?

24       A.   I know that there is a mosque there.  It was guarded by policemen.

25       Q.   Do you find this logical, that they had to guard it?  Because

Page 11871

 1    fifty metres away, on the other side, there were grave killings and there

 2    was unrest.

 3       A.   I just said what I saw.  It's not for me to think this or that.

 4       Q.   All right.  All right, Mr. Dulovic.  Did you know anything, for

 5    example, about the attack of the Muslim armed forces on the village of

 6    Gornja Kamenica and the killing of a large number of people, and that this

 7    attack was led by Esad Mehmedovic, a former policeman, Meho Suljagic, Edo

 8    Hazkic [phoen], and Esad and Ahmed Grebic?  Are you aware of this?

 9       A.   No.  I have no idea where Kamenica is, or was I ever there.

10       Q.   Do you remember what happened at the road between Zvornik and

11    Sehovici, when the Muslim forces attacked a column of vehicles in which

12    there were Serb civilians?

13       A.   No.

14       Q.   Twelve of them were killed then.  Inter alia, a pregnant woman was

15    heavily wounded.  Do you remember that event?

16       A.   No.  No.  I don't know anything about that.

17       Q.   Do you know anything about the attack?  I mean, all of these are

18    villages around Zvornik.  They are very close to Zvornik.  The village of

19    Gornja Baljkovica, also the municipality of Zvornik, 14 civilians, Serb

20    civilians, were killed.  I have their names.  I'm not going to read them

21    out.  Have you ever heard of that?

22       A.   No.

23       Q.   Of course, there was looting and their cattle were taken away, et

24    cetera.

25       A.   No.  No, I was not there in the field.

Page 11872

 1       Q.   Do you know about Snagovo and the large-scale killings of

 2    civilians by Muslim forces there, and also the castration of some men and

 3    torture, mutilation, and also other things also around Zvornik?  Have you

 4    ever heard of that?

 5       A.   No.  I was in Zvornik for a very short while, so I did not have

 6    the opportunity of hearing about that.

 7       Q.   Did you hear, for example, of the killing of Mihajlo Pantic, a

 8    Serb who was 90 years old?  He was killed by three bullets.

 9       A.   I did not hear about that, because I was not there.

10       Q.   All right.  Did you hear anything about killings in the

11    municipality of Zvornik that were committed?  Did you hear about what was

12    done by units that were commanded by Naser Oric from Srebrenica and how

13    many slaughters they committed in the municipality of Zvornik?

14       A.   No.

15       Q.   You see, for example, you say that on the 10th of May you were in

16    Zvornik.

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   On the 5th of May, there was a large-scale massacre of the

19    civilian population.  There, right in front of Zvornik, in the village of

20    Boskovici, Mitra Gajic was killed, Stanka Spasojevic -- these are women,

21    for those who are not familiar with the names.  They don't know that these

22    are women's names.  Draga Lukic.  Dragana Cvijetic, Milosava Kostic, Draga

23    Tesic, and so on.  Many women among the killed.  See, on the 5th of May.

24    You did not hear about any of this and you were in Zvornik on the 10th of

25    May, five days after that?

Page 11873

 1       A.   Yes.  It is logical that I would not hear anything.  News went

 2    slowly.  People were busy with their own affairs, and I did not hear about

 3    that.  That was not the subject then.

 4       Q.   All right.  What was the subject, if it wasn't crimes?  Look at

 5    this, please.  In the month of April - let's go a month back - before you

 6    came to Zvornik.  When did you first come to Zvornik?

 7       A.   It says when I came.  It says so over there.

 8       Q.   I can't find it.  Now, you tell me.

 9       A.   April.

10       Q.   Which date?

11       A.   I said so the other day, but I had the papers with me.  I can't

12    remember now.  I don't know.  I think that again it was the 10th of April.

13       Q.   The 10th of April, and this is the 10th of May.

14       A.   Yes, it so happened, as far as I remember.

15            JUDGE MAY:  10th of May was his answer.  Yes, let's move on.  It's

16    not a memory test here.

17            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No.  I'm not testing the witness's

18    memory.  I just can't find it here in my notes when he was there.

19            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20       Q.   For example, I have here material about things that happened on

21    the 17th of April, 1992, very grave events, a very large number of people

22    were killed.  This is the municipality of Zvornik, the village of

23    Rastusnica.  Did you hear anything about this attack of the Muslim forces?

24       A.   No.  No.  At that time, when I was in Zvornik, what was topical

25    was the clash between the commander of the Territorial Defence and a

Page 11874

 1    strong paramilitary formation, the man who led such a formation, and he

 2    said that he was one of Seselj's men, this was this Cele.  That was the

 3    topical thing going on there at that time.  I could not sit there and talk

 4    to someone about something that was going on.  This was more urgent.

 5       Q.   All right.  What is more urgent, Mr. Dulovic, than such mass

 6    killings of civilians throughout the municipality of Zvornik?  Don't tell

 7    me it's more urgent whether one hoodlum is quarrelling with another one.

 8    You said that you had lunch with this man for several hours.  Is that

 9    right?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   Do you think that that was the most urgent thing you should deal

12    with, to have lunch with him for several hours so that you would discuss

13    these matters with him?  All of it was more urgent than what I'm quoting

14    to you now?

15       A.   What was more urgent for me was to find out what was going on in

16    Zvornik and who was who.

17       Q.   Did you really think that such a source could be reliable, or do

18    you assume that this source wanted to tell you his own story, and he

19    thinks that that's the way it suits him?  Can you really take such a

20    criminal as a reliable source?

21       A.   I just conveyed what he had said to me.

22       Q.   All right.  All right, Mr. Dulovic.  I'm not asking you about

23    these individual names.  I told you how many were involved.  But I'm

24    asking you about all of this.  Did you ever get any information about the

25    large number of civilians who were killed in the municipality of Zvornik?

Page 11875

 1    So let us leave the names aside, the actual names, the number of women

 2    involved, et cetera.  Did you ever find out anything about this?  Did you

 3    ever write about the civilian casualties in the municipality of Zvornik or

 4    about the perpetrators of these crimes?

 5       A.   This was done by the local correspondents.

 6       Q.   Who?

 7       A.   The correspondents.

 8       Q.   Weren't you a correspondent of Ekspres Politika then?

 9       A.   No.  I was a journalist at the editorial desk.  Correspondents are

10    people who are local correspondents in various towns in Serbia, throughout

11    the former Yugoslavia.

12       Q.   All right.  But when, as a journalist from the desk, you go, and

13    when you're in the field and then you're a kind of special reporter from

14    the spot, aren't you?

15       A.   Well, perhaps you could put it that way, but it really depends on

16    the subject involved.

17       Q.   All right.  So what was the subject involved?  What was your topic

18    at the time when you were in Zvornik; to discuss who was against who with

19    these criminals or to see what was actually going on?

20       A.   It was my affair and the affair of the editors.  They decided to

21    go and find out what was going on in Zvornik.

22       Q.   All right.  Did you ever find anything out about the mass graves

23    in the municipality of Zvornik, 15 kilometres to the south, in the region

24    of the village of Kamenica?  Did you ever hear anything about this, let

25    alone write about it?  I assume you never did.

Page 11876

 1       A.   I did not hear about it, and I was never there.

 2       Q.   All right.  All right, Mr. Dulovic.  You explained here, as a

 3    matter of fact for quite a long period of time, Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan,

 4    was a member of the federal Ministry of the Interior, and as proof of

 5    that, you mentioned that at the trial that you attended, some certificate

 6    was shown concerning a loan, and now that was supposed to be confirmation

 7    of Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, belonging to the federal Ministry of the

 8    Interior; is that right?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   Then also there was a lot of bidding here, and then the figure

11    reached was many thousands of dollars.  During those years, in the 1980s,

12    the rate of exchange varied, but at that time it was probably 3.000 dinars

13    for one dollar.  So it was probably about 3.000 dollars, this entire

14    amount of 9 million dinars.  Why would I waste time with that now, when

15    you can check it with the exchange rates lists that were published by all

16    newspapers in those days at that time?  So you can get information about

17    this.

18            Do you know who the Minister of the Interior was during the 1980s

19    in Yugoslavia?

20       A.   I've forgotten.  I don't know.

21       Q.   Do you know that it was Stane Dolanc, the leading Slovenian in

22    those days?  He headed the Ministry of the Interior.

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Tell me, please --

25            JUDGE MAY:  It's now time to adjourn.  Before we do, Mr. Groome,

Page 11877

 1    can you just help us with this:  We have a number of motions concerning a

 2    Witness 36.  I don't think he's on the list, but it would be helpful to

 3    know when it's anticipated he's to give evidence.

 4            MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, we anticipate calling him either the

 5    29th or 30th of this month.

 6            JUDGE MAY:  So he's not immediate.

 7            MR. GROOME:  No, Your Honour.

 8            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, Mr. May, in relation to

 9    that, could I just say something?  I do not have any kind of list of

10    coming witnesses except for the next two.  I only know about the next two

11    witnesses.  One is what's his name, (redacted)the one who comes after this

12    witness, and the one after that is some (redacted).

13            JUDGE MAY:  Mr. Groome, can you get -- just a moment.

14            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we get this?

15            JUDGE MAY:  Just a moment.

16            Mr. Groome, the accused should have a longer list.  Can you make

17    sure he gets one today to cover all next week and as far ahead as

18    possible.

19            MR. GROOME:  I will, Your Honour.  Thank you.

20            JUDGE MAY:  We'll adjourn now, 20 minutes.

21                          --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

22                          --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

23            JUDGE MAY:  Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

24            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25       Q.   Let me conclude, then.  We broke off when you said that Zeljko

Page 11878












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Page 11879

 1    Raznjatovic, Arkan, used to be an employee of the federal Ministry of the

 2    Interior and that this was in the 1980s, or rather, that there was a trial

 3    then, and before that, he had been an employee.  So what?  So what if he

 4    was an employee of the Ministry of the Interior in the 1980s?  So what?

 5    What meaning does it have?  What significance does it have?

 6            JUDGE MAY:  That is for us to say, whether it has any significance

 7    at all, not for the witness.

 8            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

 9       Q.   But do you remember that at the time, this same Ministry of the

10    Interior was headed by Stane Dolanc, the leading Slovenian in the then

11    Yugoslavia?

12       A.   Yes, I remember that.

13       Q.   During the examination-in-chief, you were asked whether Vuckovic -

14    is that the man, Cele?

15       A.   No.

16       Q.   Who was Vuckovic?

17       A.   Vojin Vuckovic was -- and his brother, Dusan Vuckovic, they had a

18    military unit.

19       Q.   Very well, then.  I only want to clarify one point.  You were

20    asked whether he had anything to do with the official authorities, the

21    government authorities of Yugoslavia or Serbia, and to that question, you

22    replied that he used to be employed as an instructor for the marshal arts

23    in the federal SUP.  Is that correct?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   Does this indicate a connection?  For example, an English teacher

Page 11880

 1    in the federal SUP or some other teacher - for physical education, for

 2    example, the martial arts, English, French, maths, for example - is that

 3    supposed to indicate that he had some sort of connection with the

 4    authorities?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   Does that mean that a male nurse, for example, employed in a state

 7    hospital, has something to do with the state organs?

 8       A.   The comparison is not appropriate.

 9       Q.   Very well, Mr. Dulovic.  Apart from the fact that he was a martial

10    arts instructor once upon a time, you don't know anything else about any

11    connection of his with the government authorities?

12       A.   I have my observations.

13       Q.   Well, what did you observe him to have connections to?

14       A.   With the Sabac authorities, when he was tried there.

15       Q.   Well, what was that connection?

16       A.   He approached the president of the chamber and throughout the

17    trial, the two were whispering to each other, which was unprecedented in

18    the courtroom.

19       Q.   Was the man sentenced?

20       A.   He was given a suspended sentence.

21       Q.   So you mean he's not in prison?

22       A.   Vojin Vuckovic was not imprisoned.

23       Q.   The man who killed 17 people; is that who you're referring to?

24       A.   No.  I'm referring to Vojin Vuckovic's elder brother.

25       Q.   I'm interested in the one who was accused of murder.

Page 11881

 1       A.   You mean the one who was accused of 17 murders?

 2       Q.   Yes, yes.

 3       A.   He was sentenced to seven years in prison in the first instance.

 4    I don't know whether he's still in prison or whether he's in prison at

 5    all.

 6       Q.   You don't know what the final judgement was?

 7       A.   No.

 8       Q.   Very well.  You say -- when you were asked how you came by your

 9    information, I noted down your answer.  You said that you found out from

10    people whom you assumed would know.  That was what you said.  Is that

11    correct?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   Do you think that information gathered by such means, from people

14    whom you assume know something, can be taken as some sort of serious

15    information-gathering?

16       A.   That depends on my judgement.

17       Q.   Do you consider that when you are interviewing a criminal, such as

18    Cele, and he tells you something, that this is valid information?

19       A.   In this particular case, I think so, yes.  He was very convincing.

20       Q.   Do you assume that someone who kills and loots, don't you think

21    that he might also lie, or do you think that he kills and loots but he

22    speaks the truth?

23       A.   Not always.

24       Q.   You said at one point, and you were referring to your trip to

25    Uzice, who was there with you?  What other journalists were with you when

Page 11882

 1    you were going to Zvornik and Visegrad?  What other journalists were

 2    there?

 3       A.   Bojana Marjanovic, a colleague of mine.

 4       Q.   Only she?

 5       A.   And the driver.

 6       Q.   Very well.  You marked on a map the place from which you say you

 7    saw fires burning on the other bank of the Drina.

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   Very well, Mr. Dulovic.  Do you know, because you passed along

10    that way, that on the other side of the Drina there are high hills and a

11    lot of woodland, and that you could not have seen those fires, by any

12    means, from the place you marked on the map?

13       A.   That is not correct.

14       Q.   Am I right in assuming that later on you visited those areas and

15    established what had happened where, and not that you saw fires at the

16    time?  That was not possible.

17       A.   It was possible, and what I said is correct.

18       Q.   Very well.

19       A.   Because there's a lot of smoke.

20       Q.   Yes, but you can see on your map what the distance is.  You can

21    see how many hills lie between the village you speak about and the spot.

22       A.   The villages were named for me by people standing on the bank of

23    the Drina, on the Serbian side, and observing all this.  When I asked them

24    what was going on, they told me the names of those villages: Redzici,

25    Djapici, Krasno Polje, Rzine, and Lonjin.

Page 11883

 1       Q.   On this map which I'm looking at is a sign you made, and on the

 2    side you were looking at, there are some hundred villages, only on this

 3    map that you provided, and this village of Redzici is in the middle of the

 4    map.  Is this what you're talking about, Mr. Dulovic?

 5       A.   Yes.  This village was mentioned.

 6       Q.   Very well.  And you claim that from there you were able to see the

 7    fire in Redzici very well.

 8       A.   That's not what I said.  That's what you're saying now.

 9       Q.   It wasn't me who brought this map.  It wasn't me who explained

10    that Redzici was set on fire and that it is from this spot that you saw

11    the fire.

12       A.   I saw fires.  I do not know the area.  I asked people what was

13    going on there, and they told me the villages that I have just named are

14    on fire.

15       Q.   Very well, Mr. Dulovic.  That's enough for us to estimate the

16    reliability of what you said.

17       A.   Those are people who have farms there and who are familiar with

18    every house, let alone every village on the other side of the Drina.

19       Q.   Can you see how many kilometres there are between that spot and

20    Redzici?

21       A.   I don't know.

22       Q.   And that's over hill tops?

23       A.   I don't know.

24       Q.   Very well, Mr. Dulovic.  Just one question about what you said

25    about your notes on what Seselj said when he was in Vukovar.  Did you

Page 11884

 1    publish an article about this?

 2       A.   I don't remember.

 3       Q.   I assume that if you were keeping notes, you did that in order to

 4    write something later on.  Isn't that correct?

 5       A.   Yes, but I don't remember whether I mentioned that detail in my

 6    text.  I would have to check it.

 7       Q.   Very well.  You say that the newspaper -- or rather, that the

 8    policy was to cleanse the army of non-Serbian staff.  Is that what you

 9    said?

10       A.   That's not what I said.  You would have to read this for me.

11       Q.   I think you said during the examination-in-chief - I don't know

12    where exactly - that there was a tendency to cleanse the army of

13    non-Serbian members.  Did you say that?

14       A.   It wasn't me who said that.

15       Q.   Are you aware of the fact that the same Taso Enes, who was a

16    colonel, was later a Muslim general, for example?

17       A.   I don't know whether he's a Muslim or not.

18       Q.   You think that Enes is a Serbian name?

19       A.   I don't want to think anything.  I don't know whether he's a

20    Muslim or not.

21       Q.   Very well.  Do you know, for example, that even during the NATO

22    aggression in 1999, and for a longer time also, not only then, he was at

23    the head of the military security service, one of the most sensitive

24    positions, especially in wartime, that this was a Hungarian, Farkas?

25       A.   Yes, I know.

Page 11885

 1       Q.   Do you know how many other important posts were held by people who

 2    were not of Serbian ethnicity?

 3       A.   I don't know why you're saying all this when I did not say that

 4    the army was being cleansed of foreign cadres.  These were not my words.

 5    That's not what I said.  That was said by a man who had paramilitary

 6    formations, who was a friend of yours; Vojislav Seselj.

 7       Q.   You know, Mr. Dulovic, that Vojislav Seselj was my opponent, not

 8    my friend.

 9       A.   Well, if he's writing to you, he's your friend.

10       Q.   He wrote a letter in connection with your testimony.  He feels

11    it's his duty to put that forward, so I wouldn't conclude what you just

12    did.

13            You mention a telegram that you adduced here.  Do some things

14    mentioned in that telegram indicate that there was a legal and, I would

15    say, correct behaviour of the army in relation to things you mention?  For

16    example, this is a telegram which you say -- it says here:  "Lieutenant

17    Colonel Milan Remija.  He says activities and phenomena having a positive

18    effect on morale in the units of the division, and among others, he

19    mentions proper treatment of prisoners.

20            Does this indicate that there was an atmosphere in the army which

21    meant that treating prisoners properly had a positive effect on morale in

22    the army and that the army was nurturing proper behaviour toward those

23    they were at war with?  Do you think that this confirms what I'm saying or

24    not?

25       A.   It's not for me to explain this text, this telegram.

Page 11886

 1       Q.   Well, you provided it, so I suppose you had some intention when

 2    you did that.

 3       A.   My intention was to produce it for anyone who -- for people to

 4    estimate whose job it is.

 5       Q.   He suggests certain measures to improve morale, and the first

 6    thing he mentions - these are bullets rather than numbers - but the first

 7    one is that there should be an organised effort to disarm paramilitary

 8    units, especially Dusan Silni, the Chetniks, and Arkan's soldiers, and

 9    that the organs of the Republic of Serbia should be involved in this.  Do

10    you feel that this suggestion is also a manifestation of a proper attitude

11    which the JNA had toward phenomena that you say you observed in the field?

12       A.   It's not for me to put forward various opinions or interpretations

13    of this document.

14            JUDGE MAY:  It should be noted for the record that the accused is

15    referring to Exhibit 342, tab 11.

16            Yes.

17            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Where it says number 11 here, Mr.

18    May, it's after this, but I suppose that you have better records than I

19    do.  I usually don't get it so tidy.  It's number 10 in my file, but I

20    assume there's no danger of confusion, because there's only one telegram

21    here.

22            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23       Q.   You say that you are speaking only of what you saw, Mr. Dulovic,

24    but do you remember that on the road, not only at the border of Serbia, at

25    the border of Serbian territory, but also in the depth of the territory,

Page 11887












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Page 11888

 1    you were able to see a large number of police checkpoints stopping and

 2    searching vehicles, searching for weapons or anything that might indicate

 3    looting, criminal offences, or something like that, and that this was done

 4    meticulously and that there was no road without a police checkpoint

 5    checking everybody to look for weapons, to disarm people, to arrest

 6    offenders, looking for traces of looting or criminal offences?  Do you

 7    remember this?

 8       A.   No.

 9       Q.   You don't remember this?

10       A.   No.

11       Q.   You didn't pass through such checkpoints?

12       A.   I passed through a checkpoint which looked like a regular one on

13    the Zagreb-Belgrade motorway.

14       Q.   Very well.  Tell me, please, Mr. Dulovic:  Did you, anywhere or at

15    any time, in Serbia, see any kind of paramilitary unit?

16       A.   I don't know where I could see them in Belgrade.  In Belgrade, I

17    did not, and I don't know what unit is a paramilitary one and what isn't,

18    and whether they were armed or not.  What I said was that these people

19    received weapons once they were in the field, when they were far away from

20    the place they had come from.  That's when they were issued weapons.

21       Q.   All right.  You told us about the events that took place in front

22    the Visegrad hotel when an officer of the Yugoslav army, the JNA, rather,

23    arrested somebody who had broken down the door of the hotel and stormed

24    the hotel, somebody who, in your opinion, was a member of some

25    paramilitary unit?

Page 11889

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   Did you see anything at all that the army did which was not proper

 3    and in keeping with the rules of service or military discipline and

 4    conduct which you could point a finger at?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   What, for example, Mr. Dulovic?  Tell us.

 7       A.   At the Trpinjska Road, I saw a tank.  On the sides of the turret,

 8    there were skis, several pairs of skis, and this was absurd.

 9    That's just a small example.

10       Q.   All right.  Let's move on.

11            As you described having seen a dead old man outside Visegrad, near

12    some kind of river, water, was it the Drina or whatever --

13       A.   It wasn't the River Drina, but yes, I did see a person like that.

14    He had his hands tied behind his back.  He had some sort of cloth over his

15    mouth.  He was on the bank.  And there were some reservists there, amongst

16    them a doctor from Uzice Pozega whom I talked to.  That corpse was lying

17    there 30 metres away from us.  And I asked who that was and what had

18    happened, and he said the man had been strangled.  He was a Muslim.  I

19    asked how --

20       Q.   Well, I heard about that.

21       A.   Well, why are you asking me, then?

22       Q.   Well, I wanted to ask you whether you had seen this old man who

23    had been strangled.  All right.  Well, I assume that the doctor could have

24    ascertained whether he had been strangled, so if one questions that kind

25    of observation.  But let me ask you this:  This happened outside Visegrad.

Page 11890

 1    Was there another body found, that of some man, and nobody knew how he had

 2    been killed?  Did you see anybody else who had been killed in all these

 3    activities that you described on your journey to Visegrad, at the entrance

 4    to Visegrad, at the exit to Visegrad, or anything like that, anything that

 5    happened?

 6       A.   For the first time, in April, when I wanted to enter Zvornik from

 7    the other side, the opposite side, so not from the Serb side, I saw, by

 8    the Drina River, several bodies lying there.  I was not able to establish

 9    whether they were men or women or anything else that could throw some

10    light onto who they were, their ethnic group, their age, their gender, et

11    cetera.  I saw that, but that was on the other side, and the people who

12    were on that side saw that as well.

13       Q.   Well, I understand that.  From the Serbian territory, across the

14    Drina River, you saw several dead persons and you don't know their gender,

15    their ethnicity, et cetera, on the banks of the river, on

16    Bosnia-Herzegovina territory; right?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   Later on, when you came again on the 10th of May, that was when

19    you saw, as far as I was able to gather from what you were saying, some

20    tanks, artillery, in Veliki Zvornik, and then there was this notice on

21    which it said Republika Srpska standing there.

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   Do you know that at that time, the army of Republika Srpska had

24    already been established and that the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia had

25    adopted a new constitution composed of Serbia and Montenegro on the 27th

Page 11891

 1    of April, 1992?  I assume that you remember that, when that was

 2    proclaimed.

 3       A.   I don't remember that.  What I do remember is that with the leader

 4    of a tank, the commander of a tank, on the other side, who was on the

 5    bridge, on the Muslim side, I talked to him when I passed by that way,

 6    Karakaj.  That was him.  And it was a tank belonging to the Yugoslav army.

 7       Q.   Do you know that after the proclamation of the constitution of the

 8    Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, that is to say, after the 27th of April,

 9    an order was issued according to which all citizens of the Federal

10    Republic of Yugoslavia who were members of the Yugoslav People's Army are

11    duty-bound to return to the territory of the Federal Republic of

12    Yugoslavia?

13       A.   I don't know that.  I just remember what I saw and the

14    conversations I had with people.

15       Q.   All right.  But do you know -- are you aware of one very clear-cut

16    fact:  The existence of a great Yugoslavia, the FRY and the JNA, existed

17    throughout the territory of Yugoslavia.  Since the FRY was established,

18    the members of that portion of the JNA who were citizens of Serbia and

19    Montenegro, which make up the FRY, were withdrawn from the territories

20    that were outside the FRY, just as the members who were on Serbia and

21    Montenegro from other parts went back to their own republics?  Are you

22    aware of that fact?

23       A.   I have to say once again, you are now focusing on what I talked

24    about and what I had said I had seen and heard.  That's all I can talk

25    about, what I have seen and heard.  I'm not here to accuse or anything

Page 11892

 1    else; I'm here to testify about the things that I saw and heard.  What

 2    you're talking about now, I really don't know anything about that.

 3       Q.   All right.  So you have no notion of the fact that after the FRY

 4    was set up, the portion of the JNA which was --

 5            JUDGE MAY:  The witness has given you his answer.  Now, let's move

 6    on to something else.

 7            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no more questions, Mr. May.

 8    I have adhered to the time allotted to me.

 9            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.

10            Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

11            MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  I shall

12    try not to take up more than 10 or 20 minutes, to get through my questions

13    in that time.

14                          Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

15       Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Dulovic, as you yourself said, from May 1991

16    up until November, which is six or seven months in all, with several

17    smaller interruptions, that you were, almost throughout that time, in

18    Eastern Slavonia and that you toured the towns and villages in the area to

19    see what was going on.

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   In that time interval, up until the permit that you obtained, the

22    permit to tour the terrain in that area, up until that time you didn't

23    need a permit or authorisation of any kind, did you?

24       A.   Not at the beginning, no.

25       Q.   Thank you.  Then you were issued a permit, and we have it in tab

Page 11893

 1    1, the permit is contained in tab 1, and it is issued from the 9th of

 2    October to the 9th of November, and you spent several days longer in the

 3    area; isn't that right?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   Now, throughout that period of time and the time when you had the

 6    permit in your hands, as well as the period you didn't need authorisation,

 7    were there any other journalists who were observers or representatives of

 8    international humanitarian organisations in the area, especially in the

 9    month prior to your obtaining a permit, when permits were not necessary?

10       A.   There were journalists, yes.  I remember that there were

11    international -- well, actually, I think -- I can't quite remember the

12    date, but in Borovo Selo, for instance, somebody was there.  There was a

13    foreigner there who had to meet with Goran Hadzic to sign some sort of

14    agreement on an exchange, or rather, to organise liaison officers and

15    future -- future agreements on a ceasefire.

16       Q.   Mr. Dulovic --

17       A.   Henri Wejnaendts was his name.  He was an envoy of Mr. van den

18    Broek.

19       Q.   Thank you.  I'm interested in knowing whether anybody throughout

20    that period of time, including the month up until the 12th of November,

21    whether anybody made it impossible for observers, journalists, foreign and

22    domestic, to follow the events in that region of Eastern Slavonia.

23       A.   For the most part, we were able to monitor events.

24       Q.   Thank you.  That's what I was interested in learning.

25            What I want to ask you now is this:  On the 9th of October, once

Page 11894

 1    you had obtained your permit authorising you to go to the area, and when

 2    you arrived in the region, where was the army of Yugoslavia?  How far?  At

 3    what distance from the town of Vukovar or from the centre of Vukovar, for

 4    example?  How far was it from there?

 5       A.   I would need a map to indicate this, but, for example, between

 6    Borovo Selo -- they were actually along the edges of Borovo Selo, not as

 7    you go towards Vukovar, but the other end, the opposite end.  And I'm

 8    talking about the tank unit that was stationed there.  That means from

 9    Borovo Selo, you have Borovo Selo, then you have the railway line, then

10    there's an airport, a sports airport, then you have Borovo Naselje.

11       Q.   So it was somewhere in that area.  How far from town?

12       A.   Oh, from town, you mean.  Well, I really can't say.

13       Q.   How far from Borovo Selo?

14       A.   Well, I never measured the distance.  We would have to look at

15    maps to ascertain this.

16       Q.   But the army was not in town, in the town proper?

17       A.   Which town?

18       Q.   In the town of Vukovar.

19       A.   Well, I wasn't in Vukovar.  I was in Borovo Selo, in the suburbs

20    of Vukovar.

21       Q.   Well, how far away is that?  What's the distance?

22       A.   I don't know.  I would be guessing.

23       Q.   All right.  Let's move forward, Mr. Dulovic.

24            You said yesterday that you had heard from a Yugoslav army officer

25    which units were in Vukovar.

Page 11895

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   Now, did that same officer tell you which Croatian units were in

 3    Vukovar itself?

 4       A.   No.

 5       Q.   Thank you.

 6       A.   No, I didn't ask him that.

 7       Q.   Thank you.  Now, when you received authorisation and a permit to

 8    be able to see what was going on on this side, did you try and enter

 9    Vukovar or get authorisation to enter the town itself to see what was

10    going on down there?

11       A.   No, I did not attempt to do this.  A colleague of mine did,

12    however.  He was a correspondent for the Vecernje Novosti newspaper.  He

13    tried from Trpinjska Cesta, from the Trpinje Road, to access the area.  He

14    started out, but he was killed later on.  They found his body.  In other

15    words, you could not enter Vukovar.

16       Q.   Thank you.  So the man who tried to enter was killed?

17       A.   Yes.  He was killed by the territorials of Vrsadin [phoen].  There

18    was a lot of shooting going on there.  Everybody was shooting at everybody

19    else.  There was a lot of fear.  Nobody knew who was who in the camouflage

20    uniforms, civilian clothing, and so on.

21       Q.   How come you know that he was killed by the territorials and not

22    by somebody else, a bullet from somebody else?

23       A.   The lieutenant of the tank unit, Borisa Doknic, told me that, and

24    several other officers.

25       Q.   All right.  Thank you.  Now, Mr. Dulovic, when the army was quite

Page 11896












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Page 11897

 1    a long way from the centre of Vukovar, in the suburbs, were attempts made

 2    to find a peaceful solution and to stop the conflict, to prevent any other

 3    victims falling?

 4       A.   Yes, that's how I understood it.  There were attempts of that

 5    kind, as far as I recall.

 6       Q.   Thank you.  Now, to move on, this is what I'm interested in:  You

 7    said that there was shooting from the town in response to the attack.

 8    When they were attacked, they responded and fired.  Now, I'm interested in

 9    knowing how strong this shooting was.  Was it the same as the attack?  Was

10    the shooting of equal intensity on both sides or was it stronger from one

11    side?

12       A.   This is difficult to assess.  I was observing the situation from

13    the very edge of Borovo Selo, across the railway line.  There were several

14    of us there, and we were observing what was going on.  We saw our tanks,

15    Serbian tanks, that is to say, move towards Borovo Naselje - this is even

16    closer to Vukovar - across that airstrip, airport.  There were several

17    such tanks, ten of them perhaps.  And once they had moved in the direction

18    of the airport, the Croats used mortars and started shelling.  Quite a lot

19    of people lost their lives from this mortar fire.

20       Q.   Civilians or soldiers?

21       A.   Mr. Tapuskovic, there were no civilians in attacks of this kind,

22    where you have tanks moving forward.  They were soldiers.  They were

23    reservists, or whoever they were, I don't really know.  But the attack was

24    stopped.  They responded by mortar fire, and it was the infantrymen

25    following the tanks that were the casualties.  Some of the tanks came

Page 11898

 1    across mines too, so they were stopped.  The whole lot of them returned,

 2    the attack was aborted.  And once they had withdrawn, once our forces had

 3    withdrawn, the mortar fire stopped.  So that is one example of what things

 4    looked like over there.

 5       Q.   Was that what it was like every time?

 6       A.   Not every time.  It was two or three times.  Actually, attempts --

 7    two attempts of that kind were made.  When Badza turned up, the commander

 8    of the Territorial Defence, as I heard from people, he issued orders that

 9    this kind of offensive should not be launched any more because there were

10    always casualties.

11       Q.   Now, in what you said earlier on --

12            JUDGE MAY:  Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

13            MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

14       Q.   In your testimony previously, you said that grenades were thrown.

15    What kind were they?

16       A.   Mostly mortar fire from Vukovar, because that was the most

17    effective way.  I don't know what they had.  They didn't have any

18    artillery pieces of any large calibre with them.

19       Q.   Thank you.  Could you tell us roughly, perhaps, in this response

20    to attacks, when they were shooting from Vukovar, how many soldiers fell

21    victim?  How many soldiers were killed, at least as far as you were able

22    to see and judge?

23       A.   I couldn't tell you exactly.

24       Q.   Not even an approximation?

25       A.   No, not even approximately.

Page 11899

 1       Q.   So it appears that it was right, what Sljivancanin was saying from

 2    the tape, that young men, young soldiers, were being killed.  That is not

 3    being challenged at all.  That is indisputable.

 4            JUDGE MAY:  So, Mr. Tapuskovic, there's no misunderstanding, as I

 5    understand the position, what Sljivancanin was doing was preventing the

 6    Red Cross to get into the hospital.  And of course, it was from the

 7    hospital that people were being removed.  That's the real thrust of the

 8    evidence.

 9            MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm not going into that.  You

10    heard Sljivancanin say during that conversation that young people were

11    being killed.  I wanted the Trial Chamber to find out that this fire that

12    came in response from Vukovar killed a lot of young soldiers.  I want you,

13    Your Honours, to understand that, that shells were fired from there, and

14    gunfire came from that direction.  I don't know about all the rest that

15    has to do with Sljivancanin.  Sljivancanin said young men are being

16    killed, so that is correct.  In that fire that came by way of a response,

17    a lot of young soldiers were killed, and Witness Dulovic mentioned it

18    yesterday, and I think it is noteworthy and that's why I'm referring to

19    it.

20            JUDGE MAY:  Even if so, what happened thereafter at Ovcara, of

21    course really can't be justified, if true, as alleged, by the killing of

22    soldiers, can it?

23            MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am one of the

24    persons who is profoundly convinced, certainly, just as you are convinced,

25    that this was not justified.  I am equally convinced.  But one has to know

Page 11900

 1    what actually happened in Vukovar before that as well, what it all looked

 2    like and how people were being killed there, perhaps for nothing.  And

 3    then it led to this, which certainly did happen.  I'm not trying to

 4    challenge that in any way.  This is an atrocity that all citizens of

 5    Yugoslavia took as very bad news.  I have to assure you of that.  But you

 6    should realise what was going on as the army was approaching Vukovar.

 7    That has to be known if you want to have a valid overview of the entire

 8    problem.  Nobody is challenging what happened in Ovcara, let alone I, as

 9    an amicus.  So this should be discussed in a proper manner now, all of it.

10            Your Honours, Witness Dulovic testified here he was in that area

11    for six months, perhaps even more.  I'm interested in the following:  Is

12    it possible that Witness Dulovic does not know -- well, yes, I accept that

13    there were casualties amongst the Croats.  Nobody is challenging that

14    either.  But is it possible that he doesn't know anything about this,

15    since he was there as a reporter, that other people were being killed as

16    well?  I'm not going to refer to their ethnicity.  Never mind.  But it

17    wasn't only Croats who were being killed.  There were all sorts of things

18    going on over there.  Well, that is what I wanted to ask Mr. Dulovic.  Is

19    it possible that he did not know what happened to the Serbs as well?

20            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The official sources at that time

21    did not wish to talk about this, which was logical.  As you say, yes,

22    people were being killed, but that would not have sounded very good.  That

23    was somebody's assessment.  Namely, the number of these victims,

24    casualties, was not accessible, nor did any official sources provide such

25    information to the media.

Page 11901

 1       Q.   But you were there on the ground.  You interviewed many people.

 2    You talked about many people.  You found out about many Croatian victims.

 3    Is it possible that you did not find anything out about any other victims

 4    of other ethnicities?  That's what I'm asking you.

 5       A.   Victims, during the war?

 6       Q.   No.  I'm talking about the six months that preceded the siege of

 7    Vukovar, from May to October.

 8       A.   No, I did not.  I could not find out about that.

 9       Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  I'm also interested about the Bosnian

10    side.  You say that you spent a month there.  You explained that, that you

11    were in Bosnia for a month.  Is that right?

12       A.   No.

13       Q.   Well, how long were you there?

14       A.   I was there twice in Bosnia.

15       Q.   All right.  And you also talked to people, didn't you?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   You were in Zvornik that was under the control of the territorials

18    in Bosnia.  Could you go to the territory that was controlled by the

19    Muslim forces at all?

20       A.   I don't know under whose control it was, but in Zvornik itself,

21    the forces that were in Zvornik did not allow people to go beyond, to

22    other villages outside Zvornik.

23       Q.   I am going to conclude now.  This is my last question.  I don't

24    want to keep the Trial Chamber any longer.  Is it possible that you did

25    not hear anything?  You're a journalist.  You talk to people and you did

Page 11902

 1    not go there to resolve the kind of conflict that you described, but you

 2    went there to find out what was going on over there.  You talked about a

 3    mosque that was destroyed.  You talked about casualties among the Muslims.

 4    You did not say a word about rumours -- no, not about rumours, but you did

 5    not talk to people about whether there were any victims among the Serbs as

 6    well.  Do you know anything about that?  Were there any victims among the

 7    Serbs?

 8       A.   Certainly there were.

 9       Q.   Do you know about that?

10       A.   Certainly there were.

11       Q.   Did you ask about this?

12       A.   People told me about this.

13       Q.   What did they tell you?

14       A.   I don't recall any longer.  I think that I published that, as a

15    matter of fact.

16       Q.   Thank you.

17            MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

18            JUDGE MAY:  Yes, Mr. Groome.

19                          Re-examined by Mr. Groome:

20       Q.   I ask that the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit 342, tab 1.

21    And while that's being done:  Mr. Dulovic, Mr. Milosevic asked you about

22    the period of time for which you had authorisation to be in Vukovar, and I

23    want to ask you:  Did you get an extension of the dates on -- of the

24    permit that you produced here in Court?

25            MR. GROOME:  I ask that the usher just remain there.  We'll ask

Page 11903

 1    that this be put on the overhead.

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   And how was that extension indicated on that permit?

 4       A.   After this expired, I went somewhere in town, or I can't remember

 5    any longer, but I went to the press bureau of the army, and I found the

 6    man who was in charge of permits.  He's a major.  I think his name was

 7    Popovic.  He wrote here that the permit continues to be valid, that is to

 8    say, for a longer period of time, longer than what it says up here,

 9    between the 9th of October and further on.

10            MR. GROOME:  I would ask that the usher place that on the

11    overhead, and if you could use the pointer, just indicate where that was

12    noted on the permit.  I'd ask that it be slid up some.

13       A.   [Indicates]

14       Q.   And you're pointing to the lower left-hand portion of the

15    document; is that correct?

16       A.   Here it says, "The permit continues to be valid," and then, in

17    brackets, "It is accepted from the order issued by the federal Secretariat

18    of National Defence," and here is a signature of the major.  It says

19    "Major" and then his signature, and then there's a stamp.  And that is how

20    I managed to stay on for a longer period of time without any deadline.

21    This is 923, that's the military post code, and this is another one.  So

22    there are two stamps, as a matter of fact.  So I went to two official

23    military posts where I received this.

24       Q.   Now, Mr. Dulovic, during this time period, you had other permits.

25    You had more than just the two permits that you have produced here in

Page 11904

 1    Court; is that correct?

 2       A.   Yes.  Yes.

 3       Q.   Now, I want to ask you about whether or not you had a permit to be

 4    in Zvornik on the 10th of April of 1992.  Had you secured authorisation

 5    before travelling to Zvornik?

 6       A.   On the 10th of April?

 7       Q.   The first time you were in Zvornik.

 8       A.   When I first tried to enter Zvornik; is that what you mean?

 9       Q.   Yes.  My apologies.  When you tried to enter Zvornik.

10       A.   Yes, I had a permit then too, but at that time, nothing helped.

11    It was not possible to enter Zvornik.  Quite simply, they did not let

12    people cross the bridge.

13       Q.   Now, Mr. Milosevic asked you whether you had ever been impeded

14    from performing your duties as a journalist.  Did you consider the refusal

15    of being allowed into Zvornik despite the permit, did you consider that an

16    impediment to fulfilling your duties?

17       A.   Absolutely.  Perhaps I could recall this now, but there were

18    places where no permits were valid, or rather, even with a permit, one

19    could not look at something, talk to someone, enter a certain locality.

20       Q.   Are there other places that you are personally aware of that,

21    despite having a permit, you were impeded from entering an area where the

22    Yugoslav army was present?

23       A.   I don't know.  I don't know.  I can't remember.  Vukovar, and this

24    in Zvornik, the first time.  I really cannot.

25       Q.   Mr. Dulovic, the next area that I want to inquire about is

Page 11905












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Page 11906

 1    Mr. Milosevic asked you about whether you had ever witnessed the JNA doing

 2    something which you deemed improper, and you talked about an observation

 3    you made regarding a tank.  I want to recall your attention to the area of

 4    Visegrad.  At the time that you were in Visegrad, first at the

 5    fortification of the Yugoslav army and then in the town, did you form an

 6    impression about whether the Yugoslav army could have entered the town

 7    earlier than it did?

 8       A.   Yes.  At the time when I arrived there, I said that the town

 9    looked almost like a ghost town.  I saw only one person doing some digging

10    in his garden, and I had the impression that the town was empty.  I found

11    this a bit strange.  The army was there, there was a military presence,

12    and now they were supposed to enter town and fight, and enter a town that

13    had been abandoned.

14            MR. GROOME:  I'd ask that Mr. Dulovic be shown Defence Exhibit 56

15    and I ask that it be turned to the last page so he can see the signature

16    of the person on that last page.

17       Q.   Mr. Dulovic, I'd ask you to look at the signature and the name of

18    that person on the last page.  I'd ask you to read it for us.

19       A.   Yes.  The district public attorney, public prosecutor, Branko

20    Njegovan.  I talked to him in Sabac.  I interviewed him.

21       Q.   And the interview that you conducted with this prosecutor, is it

22    contained on the videotape we saw a portion of, Prosecution Exhibit 342,

23    tab 13, the Yellow Wasp video?

24       A.   Yes.  Yes.

25       Q.   What was the question you put to Mr. Njegovan during the course of

Page 11907

 1    your interview with him?

 2       A.   I did that interview a long time ago.  It was relatively short,

 3    but I really cannot remember what I asked him.  Perhaps there were several

 4    questions.

 5            MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I would ask that the witness be shown

 6    Prosecution Exhibit 342, tab 13, page 14.  I apologise.  I'm sorry, page

 7    24.

 8       Q.   I'm showing -- asking you to take a look at a transcript of the

 9    interview.  I'd ask you to read it and see if that refreshes your

10    recollection.

11            JUDGE KWON:  Is it the same page number?

12            MR. GROOME:  Yes.  The Serbian and the English are on the same

13    page.

14       Q.   If you look at 24 and then go on to 25.

15       A.   Which page?

16       Q.   Bottom of page 24 and then going on to page 25.

17            Can you see the heading "Branko Njegovan"?

18       A.   Yes.  Yes.

19       Q.   Does that refresh your recollection regarding the interview that

20    you had with the prosecutor?

21       A.   I looked at this first page, or rather, there seems to be a

22    constant mistake here throughout.  It says "Jovan Duljic," and my name is

23    Dulovic, and this is me.  Yes.  Yes, I recognise this.

24       Q.   Can you summarise for us what the prosecutor told you -- or, I'm

25    sorry.  I return to my original question:  What question did you put to

Page 11908

 1    the prosecutor?

 2       A.   At that time, I had in my hands the indictment that had been

 3    issued against the Vuckovic brothers.  I asked the prosecutor why there

 4    was no mention in the indictment of the transfer of civilians from the

 5    settlement of Divice in Celopek, where the cultural centre was and where

 6    civilians from Celopek were detained.

 7       Q.   Did you also ask him why none of the survivors were called at the

 8    trial of these two men?

 9       A.   Probably.  Yes.  Yes.  Now I remember.  There were no witnesses

10    whatsoever who would give evidence about what Vuckovic did.  Dusan

11    Vuckovic, nicknamed Repic.  There was a guard there who was heard, I

12    think, but not in Sabac.  This man did not want to come as a witness at

13    all when Dusan Vuckovic -- to testify, rather, about the killing of 17

14    civilians at the cultural centre in Celopek, when Repic did that.  He

15    didn't want to testify about this.

16       Q.   Mr. Dulovic --

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   -- my question to you is, more specifically:  What did the

19    prosecutor tell you was the reason why he did not call any of the

20    survivors at the trial of these two men?

21       A.   Allegedly, he could not get in touch with them, as far as I can

22    remember.  Perhaps it's somewhere in here, so I'd like to have a look at

23    it.  But he could not get in touch with the witnesses.

24       Q.   I draw your attention to page 25, line 8.

25       A.   Yes.  Yes.  That's it.

Page 11909

 1       Q.   Did you also speak with one of the survivors who expressed to you

 2    that they were willing to come or were willing to give evidence on

 3    videotape but that they had not been contacted again by Mr. Njegovan?

 4       A.   I just remember my conversation with an architect, Himza Tulic.

 5    In Zvornik, he was in charge of the town planning institution.  I talked

 6    to him in Austria.  He told me about this, about all the crimes in

 7    Zvornik, and he mentioned the Vuckovic brothers and many others, both

 8    victims and criminals, by name.  I can't really -- I have to have a look

 9    at this.  What was the question?

10            JUDGE MAY:  Mr. Dulovic, I think we have the gist of the matter.

11            MR. GROOME:  I'll move on, Your Honour.

12       Q.   Mr. Dulovic, the last couple of questions I have for you regarding

13    the large numbers of crimes, very horrific descriptions of crimes that

14    Mr. Milosevic has put to you and asked you whether you are aware of them

15    as being part of the context of the time you were there and the crimes

16    that you gave some information regarding, and my question for you is the

17    following:  During the entire time you were in 81 Ulica Nova in the

18    presence of the JNA, of the Vukovar, Territorial Defence, of Seselj's men,

19    of other paramilitaries, did you hear any of these people in that place

20    you've described as a command centre, did you hear any of these people

21    talking about the crimes and the atrocities that Mr. Milosevic has put to

22    you here today?

23       A.   I think that they did not tell me about it at the time.  I don't

24    remember.  That wouldn't surprise me, though, because this is a part of

25    Vukovar that is called Sajmiste and that has a Serb population.  They were

Page 11910

 1    there all the time, and according to what they had said, the Croats had

 2    never come there and had had no interventions in that area, Sajmiste.

 3    Ulica Nova 81 belongs to that area as well.  Now, whether they knew about

 4    this or did not is something I don't know, but I don't remember that they

 5    told me about this.

 6       Q.   And when you interviewed Serbs that had been trapped in Vukovar,

 7    did the course of those interviews, did they ever describe for you some of

 8    the atrocities Mr. Milosevic has described as being committed against

 9    Serbs?  Did they ever describe those types of atrocities to you?

10       A.   No.  No.  I'm sure they didn't.  They didn't describe the things

11    Mr. Milosevic mentioned.

12       Q.   Thank you, Mr. Dulovic.

13            MR. GROOME:  I have no further questions, Your Honour.

14            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May --

15            JUDGE MAY:  Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

16            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This issue of a conversation with

17    the prosecutor and so on and so forth was not touched upon during the

18    examination-in-chief, and in view of this, I would like to ask the witness

19    a few questions about this.

20            JUDGE MAY:  It arose from what you -- the document that you put in

21    to the witness, and on the whole, we have to have a rule which means that

22    examination has to come to an end.

23                          [Trial Chamber confers]

24            JUDGE MAY:  Mr. Milosevic, we will make an exception on this

25    occasion, and you can ask questions, but you've got two minutes to do it,

Page 11911

 1    two or three minutes at the most.  I'm not going to let you have a

 2    free-ranging examination.

 3            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't intend to ask all the

 4    questions I would wish to ask.  I just want to clarify a certain point in

 5    relation to this trial.

 6                          Further cross-examination by Mr. Milosevic.

 7       Q.   [Interpretation] Since you were a journalist reporting on court

 8    proceedings for a long time, I assume you are aware of the fact that the

 9    authorities in Serbia and in Yugoslavia, then as now, respected the

10    division of power, and that there is executive, legislative, and judicial

11    power, the judiciary.  Are you aware of this, Mr. Dulovic?

12       A.   This was on paper only.  The judiciary was never independent, and

13    neither was the legislative branch of government.  Everything was

14    controlled by the executive government, as you know well.

15       Q.   In this particular case, did the police, which is the executive

16    branch, arrest the perpetrators, submit information showing that he had

17    killed 17 people, then four others, that previously he had tortured them,

18    and did they not hand them over to the judiciary?

19       A.   And unfortunately, there were no witnesses.

20       Q.   Mr. Dulovic, I'm asking you only one thing:  As I know that there

21    is no president of a chamber or a judge in Yugoslavia who could ever say

22    that there had been any interventions telling him how to judge, do you

23    think that the executive branch of government completed their task when

24    they arrested this man and handed him over, along with all the information

25    and the charges contained in the indictment, they handed him over to the

Page 11912

 1    judiciary?

 2       A.   Public prosecutors in Serbia, during the reign of the accused,

 3    were absolutely linked to politics and to what they were told by the

 4    executive branch of government; whom to prosecute, whom not to prosecute,

 5    whether to issue an indictment or not, and the accused knows this full

 6    well.

 7       Q.   Mr. Dulovic, if we were to accept your assumption --

 8       A.   This is not an assumption.  For years I --

 9       Q.   Did the public prosecutor in this case submit an indictment?  Did

10    he issue an indictment?  You say they were told whether to do so or not.

11    Did they issue an indictment, and does the indictment say that this man

12    tortured people, that he killed 17 people, that later on he killed another

13    four, that he was charged with this and handed over to the court?

14            JUDGE MAY:  This is the last question.

15            Yes, Mr. Dulovic.  Do you want to reply?

16            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do wish to reply.  This trial,

17    Your Honours, was the most shameful thing I had ever seen in more than 40

18    years.  This was unprecedented.  For example, at that trial, there was a

19    witness, a Muslim woman who had been raped by this man Repic.  She had to

20    answer, weeping, before the Court, to all the shameless questions put to

21    her by the presiding judge as to the manner in which the rape took place,

22    with every detail, whereas under the Criminal Code in our country, rape

23    trials are held in closed session and the public is thought to be

24    undesirable.  In this case, the public gallery was full, and this woman

25    had to answer, in shameful detail, as to how she was raped.  This is the

Page 11913

 1    sort of judiciary Mr. Milosevic is talking about.  She had to appear in

 2    court for about three times and tell the same story over and over again.

 3    I want to tell you that this woman who was a victim was humiliated, was

 4    horribly humiliated.  That's what I want to say.

 5            JUDGE MAY:  We simply cannot go on in this way.  You've asked your

 6    questions.

 7            Mr. Dulovic, that concludes your evidence.  Thank you for coming

 8    to the International Tribunal to give it.  You are free to go.

 9                          [The witness withdrew]

10            JUDGE MAY:  We'll adjourn now.  Twenty minutes, please.

11                          --- Recess taken at 12.08 p.m.

12                          --- On resuming at 12.33 p.m.

13                          [Open session]

14                          [The witness entered court]

15            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.  Let the witness take the declaration.

16                          WITNESS:  WITNESS C-1141

17                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

18            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

19    the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

20            JUDGE MAY:  If you'd like to take a seat.

21            Yes, Mr. Groome.

22            MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, before we begin, some of the witnesses

23     -- or a portion of the witness's testimony which is most directly

24    relevant to the indictment begins on paragraph 8.  I believe it would be

25    appropriate to take the rest of it in more summary fashion, and with the

Page 11914












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Page 11915

 1    Court's permission, would propose to lead him through the first few

 2    paragraphs of his proposed testimony.

 3            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.  When you get to anything likely to be

 4    controversial, do it in the normal way, but of course lead him through the

 5    non-controversial matters.

 6            MR. GROOME:  As we start, I would ask to go into private session

 7    to ask him his name and a couple of biographical details that may come up

 8    in the course of his testimony.

 9            JUDGE MAY:  For the record, his name for these purposes should be

10    given too.

11            MR. GROOME:  That's C-1141, Your Honour.

12            JUDGE MAY:  Thank you.

13                          [Private session]

14       (redacted)

15       (redacted)

16       (redacted)

17       (redacted)

18       (redacted)

19       (redacted)

20       (redacted)

21       (redacted)

22       (redacted)

23       (redacted)

24       (redacted)

25       (redacted)

Page 11916

 1    (redacted)

 2    (redacted)

 3    (redacted)

 4    (redacted)

 5    (redacted)

 6    (redacted)

 7    (redacted)

 8    (redacted)

 9    (redacted)

10    (redacted)

11    (redacted)

12    (redacted)

13    (redacted)

14    (redacted)

15    (redacted)

16    (redacted)

17    (redacted)

18    (redacted)

19    (redacted)

20    (redacted)

21    (redacted)

22    (redacted)

23    (redacted)

24    (redacted)

25    (redacted)

Page 11917

 1      (redacted)

 2                          [Open session]

 3            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

 4            MR. GROOME:

 5       Q.   Witness C-1141, I want to ask you to tell us how many different

 6    villages make up the municipality of Hrvatska Dubica.

 7       A.   The former municipality of Hrvatska Dubica.  Why "former"?

 8    Because when I came to Hrvatska Dubica, the municipality was dissolved and

 9    it fell under Hrvatska Kostajnica.  However, within the former

10    municipality, there were four villages.

11       Q.   And can you tell us the names of those villages.

12       A.   Zivaja, Cerovljani, Bacin, Slabinja.

13       Q.   And which of those villages were predominantly occupied by Croat

14    people?

15       A.   Bacin and Cerovljani.

16       Q.   And which ones were primarily occupied by Serb people?

17       A.   Zivaja and Slabinja.

18       Q.   And was there one place in Hrvatska Dubica that was approximately

19    50/50 between Serbs and Croats, approximately half Croat, half Serb?

20       A.   Yes.  Yes.

21       Q.   And was that the village of Hrvatska Dubica itself?

22       A.   Yes.  Yes.

23       Q.   Now, prior to 1990, how would you characterise the relationship

24    between Serbs and Croats?

25       A.   In brief, or do you want me to describe it?

Page 11918

 1       Q.   Briefly, please.

 2       A.   Well, in brief, quite normal.  Everybody lived together in

 3    harmony.  There was no hatred.

 4       Q.   Can you tell us approximately when you noticed a change in this in

 5    Hrvatska Dubica?

 6       A.   In 1990, after the multiparty elections had been held.  It was

 7    then that more than one party appeared in Dubica.

 8       Q.   Would it be fair to say that as the relationship between the two

 9    ethnic communities deteriorated, that both sides began to arm themselves

10    and mobilise for a possible conflict?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   Did there come a time when paramilitaries from the Republic of

13    Serbia arrived in Hrvatska Dubica?

14       A.   I don't know that.

15       Q.   Did there come a time when you left Hrvatska Dubica?

16       A.   Yes.  Yes.  I left it.

17       Q.   And when did you leave it?  Just a date at this point in time.

18       A.   On the 13th of September, the bridge in Hrvatska Dubica was blown

19    up.  I think on the 14th of September, which was a Thursday, I learned

20    about what had happened.  I took my wife to Zagreb, and then I stayed at

21    home.

22            JUDGE MAY:  Which year?  Can we determine that?

23            MR. GROOME:

24       Q.   Are we speaking about --

25       A.   1990 -- no.  1991.

Page 11919

 1       Q.   After bringing your wife to Zagreb, did you return to Hrvatska

 2    Dubica?

 3       A.   No, no.  I didn't take her to Zagreb.  I sent her there and I

 4    stayed on at home.  And on that Thursday, Friday, and Saturday evening, I

 5    was there.  Then I went about two kilometres further away, to a hamlet

 6    near Dubica, where a friend of mine lived, someone who had been a

 7    colleague of mine at the school.  I went there on a motorcycle.  When I

 8    arrived at his house, I found him there, and his father, and an elderly

 9    woman whom I didn't know.  They were getting ready to go and loading

10    something onto a tractor.  I asked them what was going on, and they said

11    they had to leave.  I left my motorcycle in the basement of his house, and

12    together with him, his father, and that elderly woman, I got on the

13    tractor and we went off in the direction of Kutina, under cover of night.

14       Q.   Now, did there come a time after this point in time that you

15    returned to Hrvatska Dubica through Bosnia?

16       A.   Yes, that's right.

17       Q.   And can you tell us when, please?

18       A.   On the 2nd of October, 1991.

19       Q.   You have previously described for us that the bridge was blown up.

20    Can you describe the condition of the bridge when you returned on this

21    day?

22       A.   One side had been destroyed, but you could cross the bridge

23    because they had put something there, some kind of boulders or broad

24    planks, something of that kind.  So you could go up and down these planks

25    and cross that way.

Page 11920

 1       Q.   Now, this time when you returned to your village, do you see armed

 2    forces in and around the village?

 3       A.   Not in the village, but outside the village there were some there,

 4    towards the Sava River.  About four or five kilometres away there's a

 5    forest -- actually, it's Cerovljani and Zivaja, those two places, and from

 6    Jesenice onwards.  That's where the woods start.  So it's a real forest,

 7    actually.  And then you have the Sava River.  And that's where the front

 8    line was.

 9       Q.   Did you see members of the Yugoslav People's Army as part of these

10    armed forces?

11       A.   I saw reservists, and they were wearing the grey-green type of

12    uniform.  They were reservists, and I knew some of them because they were

13    locals.

14       Q.   And they were reservists of the Yugoslav People's Army?

15            You need to --

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   Did you see any members of the SAO Krajina police present?

18       A.   Yes, I did.

19       Q.   Did you see any paramilitary forces at that time?

20       A.   Apart from those reservists, and apart from those policemen, I

21    didn't see anybody else.

22       Q.   Do you know where the headquarters of the police -- of the SAO

23    Krajina police were in your area?

24       A.   Yes, I do know that.  It was in the old school building.  We've

25    got a new school building now, but this was in the old building, in the

Page 11921

 1    old school, and that's where an agricultural cooperative was set up as

 2    well.  Anyway, it's the old school building.

 3       Q.   At this point in time, who is the commander of the local police

 4    brigade?

 5       A.   I don't really know -- actually, there were two of them, two men.

 6    One was Veljko Radunovic, and the other was his son, Stevo.  I would say

 7    that they were the two main people in charge of that.  Nobody told me, but

 8    I think that they were in command, and I knew both of them, yes.

 9            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

10            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.

11            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First of all, I think we ought to

12    establish whether a local brigade of the police force existed, because a

13    brigade is a very large formation for such a small place.

14            JUDGE MAY:  Well, Mr. Milosevic, you can ask about that when it's

15    your turn.

16            Yes.

17            MR. GROOME:

18       Q.   Witness C-1141, can you tell us about how many members made up the

19    local police force in your area?

20       A.   About 30.  31 or 32, I'm not quite sure.

21       Q.   Now, I want to draw your attention to the 20th of October, 1991.

22    Do you recall where you were that morning?

23       A.   I remember, yes.  I was at home.

24       Q.   Do you remember the day of the week?

25       A.   It was a Sunday, Sunday morning, about half past 8.00.

Page 11922

 1       Q.   Did there come a time when you went to a neighbour's house to

 2    borrow a cup of milk?

 3       A.   Yes, that's right.

 4       Q.   What occurred while you were in your neighbour's house?

 5       A.   While the old woman was pouring some milk for me in her home, her

 6    daughter was outside in the yard, and she suddenly rushed into the

 7    house --

 8       Q.   Did she say anything when she entered the house?

 9       A.   And when she came in, she said to me, (redacted)

10    (redacted)

11       Q.   I'd ask you not to mention any nickname or any other personal

12    identifying information in open session.

13            Did you go outside your neighbour's house?

14       A.   Yes, I did.

15       Q.   Can you describe for us what you saw.

16       A.   When I came up to the door, the door of my house, the entrance

17    door, on the fence, actually, the iron fence, I saw a young man standing

18    there, waiting for me.  It was raining, so he had a sort of rain cloak

19    over him.  There was a truck standing behind him.  And he asked me if that

20    was my house.  I said yes, it was.  And he said, "Well, get ready, because

21    we're going off to the fire brigade building for a meeting there."

22       Q.   Witness C-1141, could you tell us:  Was there anything written on

23    the side of the truck?

24       A.   Yes, there was.  What it said was "Milicija SAO Krajina."

25       Q.   Other than the man who you just described to us spoke to you, were

Page 11923












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Page 11924

 1    there any other men present at that time?

 2       A.   Yes.  There was another person, the driver of the truck, who was

 3    in the truck.  He was a young man, who did the driving.  Did either of

 4    these men have uniforms on, that you could tell?

 5       A.   As it was raining, the one that met me, who wasn't in the truck,

 6    was wearing this sort of rain cloak, something of that nature.  I didn't

 7    see the other one, whether he was in uniform or not, because he was

 8    sitting inside the truck.

 9       Q.   Now, after the man said, "Well, get ready, because we're going off

10    to the fire brigade building for a meeting," what did you do?

11       A.   I went inside the house to put something on.  I took a jacket, my

12    cap, and went outside.  I locked the door to the house and the gate and

13    went into the truck.  I said that I could come on foot, because I knew the

14    way, and he said, "Never mind.  It's raining.  It's best that you come in

15    the truck with us, so that's what I did.  I got up into the truck.  There

16    were four old women there, and they were sitting on a sort of wooden bench

17    or something like that.  The truck had a canvas awning over it because it

18    was raining.  And right after that, my neighbour turned up, the one that

19    had given me the milk, and she was accompanied by her daughter.  Some

20    other neighbours turned up too: A woman and her husband, both of them were

21    pensioners.

22       Q.   Now, sir, when you say they turned up, did they also enter the

23    rear of the truck, where you were?

24       A.   No, they didn't get up on their own.  They were assisted up.  The

25    soldier helped them get up onto the truck, helped these old women to get

Page 11925

 1    up onto the truck.

 2       Q.   Now, did there come a time when the truck left the area by your

 3    house and travelled somewhere else?

 4       A.   No.  When we got into the truck, the truck started off, and on the

 5    way to the fire brigade station, it stopped at several points, and every

 6    time it stopped, people would get onto the truck; old men and women.

 7       Q.   Now, before you arrived at the fire station, approximately how

 8    many people were in the rear of the truck with you?

 9       A.   I counted about 23 of us who had been boarded up onto the truck

10    and who got out at the fire station.

11       Q.   And all of the other people that were in the truck, did you

12    recognise them as being other people who lived in the same area as

13    yourself?

14       A.   Yes, that's right.  They were all from Dubica.  Of course I knew

15    them.  I taught their children and grandchildren.

16       Q.   When you arrived at the fire station, what happened?

17       A.   We got off the truck.  It was still raining.  And we stood outside

18    in front of the fire station, under the edge of the roof.  And after five

19    or perhaps ten minutes - I can't say exactly, but very soon afterwards - a

20    bus turned up.  It had also come from Dubica.  And the bus brought some

21    old women and men, also from Dubica.  There were fewer of them, perhaps

22    about - well, I can't say exactly - 15 or 16 of them.

23       Q.   Can you tell us what time it was that you arrived at the fire

24    station?

25       A.   It was 8.30, thereabouts, or maybe closer to 9.00.  Between 8.30

Page 11926

 1    and 9.00.

 2       Q.   Did there come a time when you entered the fire station?

 3       A.   When the other lot got off, the old men and women from the bus, we

 4    stayed outside for a while, and sometime after 9.00 a woman came, and a

 5    man.  They were armed.  And they told us to go inside the fire station.

 6    We all went inside and we never went out again.

 7       Q.   Aside from the two people you've just described as being armed,

 8    were there any other people at that time by the fire station that had

 9    weapons?

10       A.   No.  They were guards.  There were three guards in two places, and

11    they would take turns and have shifts.  They were all armed.  Three times

12    two.

13       Q.   The guards that you're describing now, were you able to identify

14    their uniform, or uniforms?

15       A.   Olive-green, yes, grey-green.

16       Q.   And did that identify them as belonging to a particular unit?

17       A.   Yes, it did.

18       Q.   And what unit did they belong to?

19       A.   I don't know the name, but the headquarters of that unit was in

20    Zivaja.  The commander of that headquarters or that unit, or whatever it

21    was, a battalion or whatever, but the commander was -- I don't know him

22    personally.  He was a middle-aged man.

23       Q.   Were these guards, were they military personnel or police

24    personnel?

25       A.   Military personnel, because they wore the olive-green uniforms.

Page 11927

 1       Q.   Now, can you approximate for us how many people altogether were in

 2    the fire station after having been collected from throughout the area?

 3       A.   Fifty-three.

 4       Q.   Can you give us some idea of what their ages were?

 5       A.   All of them over 60 years of age, except one person, a young boy.

 6    I think he was a boy.  He was -- he had a broken leg.  I don't know how he

 7    came to break it.  So he couldn't walk very well.  He limped a little, and

 8    his leg was in a plaster cast.  He was younger.  Otherwise, all the others

 9    were old people.

10       Q.   Aside from the young boy, who was the youngest -- next youngest

11    person in that group of people?

12       A.   Well, I couldn't really say.  I don't know.  I was younger than

13    those old people there, at the time.  I was then, at least.

14       Q.   Can you describe approximately how many were men, how many were

15    women?

16       A.   Well, I would say half/half.  Perhaps there were more women than

17    men.

18       Q.   And can you describe for us the ethnic make-up of that group of

19    53?

20       A.   There were Serbs and there were Croats and there were Muslims too.

21    Mostly they were Croats.

22       Q.   What is your ethnicity?

23       A.   I'm a Serb.

24       Q.   Now, were the people that were gathered in the fire station, were

25    they free to leave?

Page 11928

 1       A.   No.  No.

 2       Q.   You described for us being told about the necessity of you going

 3    to the fire station for a meeting.  Was a meeting ever held?

 4       A.   Well, while they were rounding up the people, and when they came

 5    to my house - I'm going back a bit now - they said that we would go for a

 6    meeting and then go back, but no meeting was ever held, no.

 7       Q.   Now, you've told us that the 53 people weren't free to leave.  Can

 8    you describe what specific observations you made that led you to the

 9    conclusion that you were not free to leave the fire station?

10       A.   Well, the guard.  As the guards took turns, the first lot of

11    guards, the first two guards on duty, when they came inside, read out a

12    list of names.  Somebody had provided them with a list and they read out

13    the names, and I counted about 53 persons on that list.  I was number 53

14    called out.  Then they went out, they locked the door, and one of the

15    guards went one way behind the fire station and the other one stood guard

16    in front of the station.

17       Q.   Was there a toilet in the fire station?

18       A.   No, there wasn't.  There was, but you couldn't reach it from the

19    building.  You had to go round about.  You would have to have gone outside

20    the building, round the corner, into the toilet, that way.

21       Q.   Were the people inside the building permitted to walk freely out

22    to the toilet and use it when they needed it?

23       A.   I saw some people who needed to go to the toilet knock on the

24    door, the guard would open the door, ask them what they wanted, they asked

25    to be excused, and then he would take the person out, lock the door again.

Page 11929

 1    He probably took them to the lavatory around the building.  And then after

 2    that, they would return.  He would unlock the door, the person would come

 3    back into the room, the guard would lock the door again and leave.  So if

 4    somebody asked to be excused, they would allow them to, escort them out.

 5       Q.   Did there come a time during the course of that day that you had

 6    an argument with one of the guards?

 7       A.   Well, I didn't have an argument with the guard.  What happened was

 8    that I went out perhaps 5.00, half past 5.00.  I knocked -- or rather, I

 9    recognised one of the guards who was on duty.  He was a (redacted)

10    (redacted)

11    (redacted)

12    (redacted)

13    something, but he took me out, locked the door, and we stood outside.  It

14    was raining all the time.  We were standing by the staircase, under the

15    roof.  And he asked me what I wanted, and he [as interpreted] said, "Well,

16    let me go home. I don't think there's going to be a meeting of any kind

17    here.  So it's getting dark, and can I go home?  And I haven't got enough

18    clothes on me. I'm going to be very cold if I stay around like this."  He

19    kept me there and tried to convince me not to leave, that somebody would

20    turn up and that we would have a meeting and that we could all go home

21    after the meeting.  However, during this conversation --

22       Q.   Sir, before you go further, I want to just establish:  You said

23    that this discussion with the guard began somewhere between 5.00 and 5.30;

24    is that correct?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 11930

 1       Q.   And that you first entered the fire station at 9.00 in the

 2    morning; is that correct?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   The 53 people that you've told us about -- I'm sorry.

 5       A.   At 1730 hours, not 5.30 a.m., I mean 1730, that is to say, in the

 6    afternoon, towards evening.  That was the time.

 7       Q.   Yes.  Now, during the period of time between when you first went

 8    into the fire station and when you had this discussion with the guard

 9    between 5.00 and 5.30, was the entire group of 53 people kept together in

10    the fire station?

11       A.   No.

12       Q.   Did there come a time when some of the people were allowed to

13    leave?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   Please describe how many people were allowed to leave.

16       A.   Six of them.  Six.

17       Q.   And can you tell us the circumstances under which they were

18    permitted to leave.

19       A.   Somebody came and asked to be taken out.  I saw one person.  I saw

20    one person coming.  I could see this through the window.  They were

21    standing outside the station.  The guard came back to look for that

22    person, and that person was allowed to leave, and they are alive.  All

23    those six people are alive to this day.

24       Q.   Now, I want to draw your attention back to the time of your having

25    this argument with the guard.  Did something happen during the course of

Page 11931

 1    that discussion?

 2       A.   Yes, it did.  I said to the guard, "Listen here.  I'm cold.  If

 3    you don't let me go home, I'm going to go home of my own free will, and

 4    you can shoot after me."  He began to cry, and he said, (redacted)

 5    (redacted)

 6    (redacted).  And he said, "Please don't leave while

 7    I'm on duty."  That meant that he was afraid and that if I left and the

 8    other shift turned up, there would be a roll-call.

 9            However, in the meantime, a car drew up.  I saw the lights.  And

10    they parked about 50 metres before the fire station.  They stopped in

11    front of a building.  Opposite that building was a post office, the old

12    post office.  A person got out of the car.  They didn't have a cap on

13    their head, just a sort of raincoat or cloak.  I didn't know who that was.

14    But that person made a sign.  They didn't say anything, but they made a

15    sign to the guard to call him to come up.  I waited by the staircase while

16    the guard went to see this man.  He went up to the car.  They had a

17    discussion of some kind.  I don't know what they were saying.  The guard

18    returned, and this is what he said:  "Go up to the car.  The man wants to

19    see you."  I did that.  I went up to the car and I recognised -- do I have

20    to say the name?  Janjeta?

21       Q.   Is there a good reason why -- do you feel you cannot say the name?

22       A.   Well, no.  I haven't mentioned any names so far, but there's no

23    reason I shouldn't, no.

24       Q.   So tell us:  Who is the person that was at the car.

25       A.   He was also a pupil of mine, but I heard people say later on that

Page 11932












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Page 11933

 1    he might have been the guard shift leader.  I don't know what he was, but

 2    that's what other people said.

 3            MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, could we go into private session for

 4    just a minute?

 5            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.

 6                          [Private session]

 7    (redacted)

 8    (redacted)

 9    (redacted)

10    (redacted)

11    (redacted)

12    (redacted)

13    (redacted)

14    (redacted)

15    (redacted)

16    (redacted)

17    (redacted)

18                          [Open session]

19            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

20            MR. GROOME:

21       Q.   Sir, now, this person who was at the car, did he say anything to

22    you regarding your being detained in the fire station?

23       A.   Not really.  He didn't say anything about detention.  But the

24    person asked me what I had said to the guard.  I said I had asked the

25    guard to let me go home and get some warmer clothes, because night was

Page 11934

 1    drawing close and it was cold.  And he asked me, "What else did you say to

 2    him?"  I said, "Well, nothing else."  And then he persisted.  He said

 3    again.  "What else did you say to the guard?"  Because it seems that the

 4    guard told him that I had told the guard that I was going to escape, to go

 5    off on my own if he didn't let me go.  And I said, "Well, I said to the

 6    guard that if he didn't allow me to go home, I would go home anyway."  He

 7    told me then to get into the car, to get into the car, and that's what I

 8    did.

 9       Q.   And did he drive you somewhere in the car?

10       A.   I got into the car and he went up to the guard.  And when he

11    returned, he got into the car and drove me off along the road leading to

12    Kostajnica.

13       Q.   And did there come a time when you got out of the car?

14       A.   I did not get out of the car.  About a kilometre after the fire

15    station, he turned the car around.  He went back by the house, and then he

16    went towards my house.  He brought me to my house.  It was night-time.  He

17    stopped the car, and he said the following to me:  "Don't you dare stay at

18    home overnight; and secondly, don't you dare ever tell anyone that you

19    were with me if you get caught."

20       Q.   Did you stay at your home that night?

21       A.   No.  No.

22       Q.   Where did you go?  Without telling us the name of the person who

23    you went to, just give us some general idea about where you went.

24       A.   I went into the hills.  That's what we call it: The hills.

25    Because my house is low down by the river.  So I went into the hills.  I

Page 11935

 1    didn't take the road.  I went through the woods.  And I reached a house.

 2    I reached the house of a person who was on very good terms with me, still

 3    is, as a matter of fact, this person is still alive.  So since the lights

 4    were on in front of his house, I stopped there.  And there was a cornfield

 5    right by the house, so I got out of the cornfield and I came to the fence.

 6            JUDGE MAY:  With respect, we don't need too much detail of this.

 7            MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

 8            JUDGE MAY:  Let's try and get the matter fairly quickly, get to

 9    the nub of this matter.

10            MR. GROOME:

11       Q.   Did there come a time that you tried escape and you were arrested

12    by the local police?  Yes or no.

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   And were you held at the police station, where you were beaten and

15    interrogated?

16       A.   Yes, but they didn't beat me.

17       Q.   What happened to you?

18       A.   Nothing.  They interrogated me.  I was there for two days and two

19    nights, in a room.  Main accusation was:  Why did I escape from the fire

20    station building, that I had some weapons at home, that I was concealing

21    weapons, and there was another major accusation: Why I did not accept the

22    SDS, that party.

23       Q.   And did there come a time when you left the area of Hrvatska

24    Dubica?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 11936

 1       Q.   Now, out of the original 53 people, you've described six people as

 2    having left while you were present in the fire station; is that correct?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   And did you learn later that three other people were allowed to

 5    leave the fire station during the -- after you left the fire station?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   Now --

 8       A.   Yes.  Yes.

 9       Q.   I want to draw your attention to March and April of 1997.  Were

10    you present during the exhumation of a number of bodies in Bacin?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   Did that exhumation include some of the people who you were in the

13    fire station with on the 20th of October?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   Sir, did you make a list for the Office of the Prosecutor of the

16    people who were in the fire station who did not leave, were not part of

17    the six or the three people that left, but the remaining -- the people

18    that remained in the fire station?  Did you create such a list?

19       A.   Yes.

20            MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, I'd ask that the following exhibit be

21    marked and shown to the witness.  There's only one exhibit with this

22    witness, so there's no binder.

23            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, it will be marked Prosecutor's

24    Exhibit 344, under seal, confidential.

25            MR. GROOME:

Page 11937

 1       Q.   Sir, I'd ask you to look at Prosecution Exhibit 344.  It's a

 2    three-page document.  Is that the list that you drafted of the people who

 3    remained in the fire station?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   Can you give us some idea of the ethnic make-up of the 43 people

 6    on your list who remained in the fire station?

 7       A.   Serbs -- two Serbs, and the rest, Croats.

 8       Q.   Do you have any personal knowledge as to what happened to the 43

 9    people on this list, some of which were exhumed from Bacin several years

10    later?

11       A.   When I managed to get out of the building on Sunday evening, they

12    remained behind.  However, early in the morning they were loaded onto a

13    bus and they took them towards Kostajnica, taking the road.  Four or five

14    kilometres away from Dubica, in Bacin, they got them off the bus by the

15    river and they killed all of them.  All 43 were exhumed.

16       Q.   Sir, did you personally witness this or is this information you

17    learned from other people?

18       A.   I did not see it personally because I was on the run; I was in the

19    hills.  But across the river, in Bosnia, there is a village too, and that

20    village is perhaps up to a kilometre away from the place where they were

21    executed.  People from that village said, and still say until the present

22    day, that they heard gunfire and moaning.

23            MR. GROOME:  I have no further questions for this witness.

24            Thank you, sir.

25            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Mr. Groome, I just wanted to clarify the

Page 11938

 1    circumstances in which the witness went on the truck.

 2            MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

 3            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Exactly why did he go on the truck?  Did he go

 4    voluntarily or was he coerced, was he forced?

 5            MR. GROOME:

 6       Q.   Sir, you testified earlier that you had offered to walk to the

 7    fire station.  Did you feel that you were free to walk to the fire station

 8    if you insisted?

 9       A.   I don't think so.

10       Q.   And can you tell us what you observed or what was said to you that

11    led you to the conclusion that you were not free, that you had to travel

12    with these two men in the truck?

13       A.   They said that we were going to a meeting, that we should not go

14    on foot, and we should make sure that everyone should come, all who had

15    stayed behind, and that this was an important meeting.  So I boarded the

16    truck.  I said, "All right."

17            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Can the witness say why, as a person of Serb

18    ethnicity, he was treated in that way?

19            MR. GROOME:

20       Q.   Sir, you've heard Judge Robinson's question.  Do you have any idea

21    why you, as a Serb, were treated and detained with the group of people

22    that were predominantly Croat?

23       A.   The main reason is my refusal, towards the end of June and

24    beginning of July, to be president of the SDS party.  In my opinion,

25    that's the main reason.  They were distributing weapons too.  I could not

Page 11939

 1    get weapons because they were suspicious of me.

 2            Secondly, even before that, and then I objected to some kind of

 3    behaviour that was wrong, and what was being done was wrong.  However,

 4    some people didn't like that, especially the leaders, and that's how they

 5    behaved to me.

 6       Q.   Can you describe more specifically what behaviour you observed

 7    that you objected to.

 8       A.   Well, against looting, against persecuting people.  They did some

 9    things arbitrarily, I mean this police of the SAO Krajina, the locals, the

10    way they call themselves, the way they introduce themselves.  The people

11    didn't really want to move about at that time.  Throughout the summer,

12    everybody was frightened.

13       Q.   The particular -- sorry, Your Honour?

14            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Does he know the other Serbs?  Did he know the

15    other Serbs who were brought to the fire station?

16            MR. GROOME:

17       Q.   Sir, do you know the other Serbs that were in the fire station

18    with you?

19            JUDGE ROBINSON:  And would he be able to say why they were brought

20    there?

21       A.   Yes.

22            MR. GROOME:

23       Q.   And Judge Robinson is asking:  Do you know why some of these other

24    Serbs were selected and their names were on this list and they were

25    detained in the fire station?

Page 11940

 1       A.   I can't really say.  They collected everyone.  I can just say one

 2    thing, though:  One person who never got dressed, or rather, did not have

 3    a uniform, that is a person who took over when I refused to be leader of

 4    the SDS.  Then this younger person was appointed, and that is what he was.

 5      And then, when I succeeded, after this entire procedure, to escape to

 6    Bosanska Dubica, he saw me there, by a building called Sumarija.  I was

 7    standing there, he saw me, and he walked up to me, and he talked to me.

 8    He said to me, inter alia, that he had given orders to have my name

 9    deleted from the list.  And I said, "Why only me?  Why was this list made

10    at all?"  So I came to the conclusion that he had known that the list had

11    been prepared, and all people who were on this list were taken to the fire

12    brigade building.

13            JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Witness, I'd like to ask some questions about the

14    ten people who were released other than yourself.  Were they all Serbs, or

15    Croats included?

16            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Both Croats and Muslims and Serbs.

17            JUDGE KWON:  Are you in the position to tell us as to the reason

18    why they were released?

19            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say.  Somebody came to pick

20    them up.  Who it was, I don't know.  And it wasn't all at once; it

21    happened during the course of the day.  I can give an example, an example

22    that I saw.

23            A person came, a Serb who was married to a Croat woman.  His wife

24    had a brother.  He had a bit of a hump.  He was a cleaner, a street

25    cleaner, in Bosanska Dubica.  He took that wife's brother out.  He's alive

Page 11941












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Page 11942

 1    until the present day.  And so on and so forth.  A young man also came and

 2    took out a waitress.  She was a waitress in a restaurant.  I saw that too.

 3    I didn't see the rest.

 4            JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 5            MR. GROOME:

 6       Q.   Sir, on Prosecution Exhibit 344, the list of the 43 people that

 7    were ultimately killed, how many names on that list, or how many people on

 8    that list were something other than Croat?  And please feel free to look

 9    at the exhibit in front of you.

10            JUDGE KWON:  If my memory is correct, he said there were two Serbs

11    among 43 people.

12            Is it correct?

13            MR. GROOME:

14       Q.   If you speak the answer.

15       A.   Yes.  Yes.  Yes.  Here it is.  Two.

16            MR. GROOME:  Thank you.  I have nothing further.

17                          [Trial Chamber confers]

18            JUDGE MAY:  Cross-examination.  I'm sorry.

19                          [Trial Chamber confers]

20            JUDGE MAY:  Cross-examination on Monday morning.  We'll not start

21    now.

22            Mr. Milosevic, you'll have an hour to cross-examine, the same as

23    you had for the other crime-base witnesses in the other part of the trial,

24    and slightly more than the Prosecution had.  But that's on Monday morning.

25            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May --

Page 11943

 1            JUDGE MAY:  What is it, Mr. Milosevic?

 2            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Of course I am going to

 3    cross-examine this witness too, but doesn't it seem quite absurd to you to

 4    have such witnesses brought here to testify in connection with the

 5    indictment brought against me?  What do I have to do with this, and what

 6    does Serbia have to do with all the events that this witness described

 7    here?  You could have brought anybody from the street --

 8            JUDGE MAY:  We'll hear you in argument in due course, but there's

 9    no need to be offensive about the witness at all.  If you agree with the

10    statement and you don't want the witness to be called, you can always do

11    so.  You can always simply agree that the statement be part of the

12    evidence, and that will save a great deal of time for everybody.  However,

13    if you wish to cross-examine, then of course in certain circumstances you

14    may do so.  There is, as you know, a rule which allows us to admit a

15    statement without cross-examination.  But there's no call to be offensive

16    about the witness.

17            Witness C-1141, as you're called, would you be back, please, on

18    Monday morning.  I think the time is half past 9.00.  I'm told it is.  So

19    would you be back then.  Could you remember, during this adjournment, not

20    to speak to anybody about your evidence until it's over, and that does

21    include the members of the Prosecution team.

22            No, Mr. Milosevic.  We're going to adjourn now.  Monday morning.

23                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.37 p.m.

24                          to be reconvened on Monday,, the 21st day of

25                          October 2002, at 9.30 a.m.