Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13272

 1                          Friday, 22 November 2002

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          [The witness entered court]

 5                          --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 6            JUDGE MAY:  Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, we've been given a copy, we

 7    understand it, of the Vance Plan, an extract from a book.  We'll give it

 8    an exhibit number.  The next exhibit, please.

 9            THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This will be

10    Prosecutor's Exhibit 355.

11            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.  Thank you for that.

12            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honours, we also provided the list of

13    the 14 witnesses.  Thank you.

14                          WITNESS:  M. BABIC [Resumed]

15                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

16                          Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:  [Continued]

17       Q.   Good morning, Witness.  Can you hear me?

18       A.   Good morning.  Yes.

19       Q.   Yesterday, you mentioned the Colonel Smiljanic and his role in

20    providing weapons.

21            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  With the help of the usher, I would like to

22    put to the witness tab 111 of Exhibit 352.  And it's actually a letter by

23    Colonel Dusan Smiljanic regarding various matters, including the Martic

24    arrest, of the 15th of October, 1994.

25       Q.   Did you have an opportunity to review this letter while you had

Page 13273

 1    your conversations with the Prosecutor in The Hague?

 2       A.   Yes, I did.

 3       Q.   In relation to the letterhead and the stamp used in this letter

 4    and the signature, are they authentic for that time?

 5       A.   They are.

 6       Q.   Are you able to identify the signature of Mr. Smiljanic or are you

 7    not familiar with it?

 8       A.   I'm not familiar with the signature.

 9       Q.   In relation to the contents of this letter, I would like to direct

10    you to page 2.  It's page 2 in the English, and I assume it's also page 2

11    in the Serbian version.  We have highlighted some paragraphs for you in

12    blue, and I would like you to turn to the first blue mark, and it says

13    here:

14            "I illegally established links with leading figures in the SDS in

15    the Lika, Banija, Kordun, and Banja Luka area with a group of OB security

16    organs and military police at the end of April and the beginning of May,

17    and I began the illegal distribution of arms to Serbian people..."

18            And it continues:  "This action continued until the beginning of

19    June 1991..."

20            Can you -- is that correct?  Did it happen in that time period in

21    the way described in this paragraph?

22       A.   Yes, it did.

23            MR. KAY:  May I raise a matter here?  Isn't preferable for the

24    witness to give evidence about it rather than commenting on someone else's

25    letter which contains much more detail and information, the authenticity

Page 13274

 1    of which cannot be proved through this witness?  Isn't it better for him

 2    just to give his evidence on the subject about the matter?

 3            JUDGE MAY:  He can comment on the letter if he has knowledge about

 4    it.  It's a question of weight, isn't it, as to how much weight one can

 5    give a comment of that sort as opposed to the evidence which he chooses to

 6    give or he can give?

 7            MR. KAY:  As I understood it, he had no knowledge of the letter.

 8            JUDGE MAY:  No, but he has knowledge of the events, which is --

 9            MR. KAY:  Yes.  What I'm --

10            JUDGE MAY:  -- the part of the evidence which is important.

11            MR. KAY:  What I'm saying is isn't it better that he gives

12    evidence about the event rather than in this form?

13            JUDGE MAY:  Well, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, you've heard that comment.

14    If you want to expand the witness's evidence on this point, of course you

15    can.

16            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, actually, yesterday the witness

17    has already mentioned that through Mr. Smiljanic, weapons could be

18    ordered, and he also mentioned that it was done through a place in the

19    Bihac airport region.  So -- but I can, of course, let him give more

20    details on the matter.  I actually thought only to confirm what he said

21    yesterday on this matter.

22       Q.   Were weapons organised through Mr. Smiljanic in the time period

23    from April to June 1991, and also later on; and if so, in which way was it

24    done?

25       A.   Yes, I know specifically for July and August 1991, in such a way

Page 13275

 1    that, from my own personal knowledge, Colonel Smiljanic himself offered

 2    his services for the procurement of weapons for the Serbs in Krajina.

 3       Q.   When you said he offered his services, how did he do that?  What

 4    did he actually suggest he could do?

 5       A.   That we should address him for any needs in weapons, and he, or

 6    rather, General Nikola Uzelac, the so-called Little Uzelac, the commander

 7    of the Zagreb Corps, needed volunteers for tanks.

 8       Q.   Does that mean Mr. Smiljanic asked you to organise - you in the

 9    Krajina, not you personally - organise tank crews?

10       A.   Yes.  Volunteers who would join tank crews.

11       Q.   And did the authorities in the Krajina do that?  Did you organise

12    tank crew members?

13       A.   Efforts were made along those lines.  To what extent they were

14    successful, I don't know for sure.

15       Q.   And in relation to the weapons, still in relation to the weapons,

16    when you had requests to make to Mr. Smiljanic, how would that be done in

17    practical terms?  What would you do?  Would you give him lists?  Can you

18    explain it in practical terms what actually happened?

19       A.   Men would go to see him who would order weapons, and they -- he

20    would provide them for them from the warehouse and then they would

21    distribute them.

22       Q.   And when you say "warehouse," where was the warehouse?

23       A.   I know specifically about the warehouse in Zeljava, which is a

24    place close to Bihac airport, which was the place of delivery, for three

25    deliveries of such weapons.

Page 13276

 1       Q.   And in which time period did these three deliveries take place?

 2       A.   At the end of July and the beginning of August 1991.

 3       Q.   In relation to the letter, I would like to refer you now to the

 4    second blue mark in the letter.  It's on page 3.  And it starts with:

 5    "Arming the Serbian people," and refers to the time period up to the end

 6    of 1991.  And it also says here:

 7            "Besides this, I also had connections with the Defence Ministry

 8    of the Republic of Serbia, given that ministry's then role in conducting

 9    the arms struggle."

10            What role did the MOD Serbia have in that arms struggle of the

11    people in the Krajina?

12       A.   I am aware of the logistics support it provided.

13       Q.   Which logistics support did the Ministry of Defence of Serbia

14    provide, and how was that done?

15       A.   In materiel and equipment.

16       Q.   And how was that done?  In which way, in practical terms?

17       A.   Men whose duty it was to do that went there.

18       Q.   And which persons went there?  Or do we need to go into private

19    session for this?

20       A.   I know that the president of the government at the time went on a

21    number of occasions, that is, the prime minister.  I know of that

22    specifically.

23       Q.   At what times did the prime minister go there?  Can you tell us

24    the approximate dates?

25       A.   I know of at least one or two occasions in September, and at least

Page 13277

 1    one occasion in November, 1991.

 2       Q.   And to whom did the prime minister then speak when he went there?

 3       A.   To General Simovic, the Minister of Defence of the Republic of

 4    Serbia.

 5       Q.   And how did then the deliveries arrive for equipment and the other

 6    things?  How did the deliveries arrive?  How was that organised?

 7       A.   Technically, I don't know how.  I just know that it did arrive.

 8       Q.   I would like to refer you now to the next blue marker, and I will

 9    quote from the letter:

10            "Given the great opposition and problems in forming the Brigade,

11    especially in the Lika area and part of Banija in September 1991, I

12    organised meetings of the most advanced reserve officers and the then

13    representatives of the authorities in Gracac and Vrhovine, at which the

14    current president of the RSK, Milan Martic, was present.  Following these

15    meetings, a brigade was formed in Gracac, Udbina, Vrhovine, and Plaski.

16    On the afternoon of the same day, I travelled to Novi Grad with Milan

17    Martic intending to resolve some questions about the final capture of

18    Kostajnica.  On returning from Novi Grad, we were arrested in Otoka

19    village, as you are aware."

20            Sir, did you know about such meetings with reserve officers to

21    organise the brigade in that region?

22       A.   Yes, I have heard of them.

23       Q.   Was the prime minister of SAO Krajina present during such

24    meetings?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 13278

 1       Q.   I would like to refer you now to the next chapter in the letter

 2    which is marked, and it says:

 3            "At the beginning of May 1992, I contacted General Tolimir, who

 4    was in Knin.  Having regard to the uncertainty and the cause of events, I

 5    agreed with Tolimir, with the agreement of the Corps Commander, that a

 6    part of the assets and the police equipment should be transferred to the

 7    RSK," and he makes special reference to nine armoured combat vehicles.

 8            Were such armed combat vehicles -- were they actually taken over

 9    by the police, and in which way was that done?

10       A.   There was the takeover of such vehicles by the police.

11       Q.   And do you know whether from your personal knowledge whether

12    General Tolimir was involved in this takeover?

13       A.   No.

14       Q.   Then in the next paragraph that is marked in blue it says:

15            "After the famous telegram that officers and soldiers born in the

16    territory of the FRY should withdraw (active military personnel made up 70

17    per cent of the VP battalion), officers born in the FRY were told to go to

18    the VJ, those from BH to the RS, and you Palestinians from the RSK can go

19    to Nis or wherever you want."

20            What do you know from your personal knowledge about this transfer

21    of personnel?

22       A.   I know that in the month of May, an order arrived that officers

23    originating from Yugoslavia should immediately abandon the territory of

24    the Republic of Srpska Krajina, and people said that there were even some

25    funny scenes when senior officers abandoned units and literally fled from

Page 13279

 1    the territory.

 2       Q.   Yes.  We can turn away from the document.  Witness, in this

 3    document, it also said that Mr. Smiljanic was arrested together with Milan

 4    Martic.  Did you know that at that time that he was arrested together with

 5    Martic?

 6       A.   Yes, I did.

 7            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Private session, please.

 8 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

 9            THE REGISTRAR:  We're in private session, Your Honours.

10            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

11       Q.   Which information did you get in relation to the arrest of Milan

12    Martic, who informed you, and what were your actions then?

13       A.   I was informed by one of the assistants of Milan Martic - his name

14    is Nikola Manovic - who came and told me that Martic had been arrested in

15    Otoka close to Bosanska Krupa, and he also said that I should call up

16    Karadzic and inform him.  I also had several telephone conversations with

17    other persons in than connection.

18       Q.   With whom did you, in addition to Karadzic, speak?

19       A.   I also spoke to Martic on one occasion from the police station in

20    Otoka, and I think there were some people from Banja Luka who were there

21    from the army, and there were quite a number of telephone communications

22    in that connection.  And also, we had round-the-clock night duty in

23    connection with that incident.

24            JUDGE MAY:  Could we have the date, please, of this roughly?

25            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.

Page 13280

 1       Q.   Can you tell us when Martic was arrested?

 2       A.   It was between the 8th and 9th or the 9th and 10th of September,

 3    1991.  That is, between two of Wijnaendts's visits to Knin between the 9th

 4    and 11th of September, 1991.

 5            THE INTERPRETER:  "The 7th and 11th."  Interpreter's correction.

 6            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

 7       Q.   You said that you spoke to Milan Martic personally.  Could you

 8    speak with him while he was still under arrest in Otoka?

 9       A.   Yes.  He called from the police station.

10       Q.   And you mentioned that you had a number of telephone conversations

11    with some people in Banja Luka who were from the army.  Could you be more

12    precise who that was, and did you call them or did they call you?

13       A.   They called me.  It was the chief of security of the Banja Luka

14    Corps, and someone else.  I think it was somebody from Bihac who called up

15    from the Bosnian police, or maybe somebody passed on their message to me.

16    I can't remember exactly now.

17       Q.   While -- while Martic was in Otoka, arrested in the police

18    station, did anything happen in the area in Otoka that alerted you and

19    other people?

20       A.   There may have been one day's difference or several hours.  I

21    can't judge exactly now.  But another event occurred which upset the

22    population in Otoka, and that prompted the inhabitants of that place of

23    Muslim ethnicity to block Martic.  I heard that they had thrown his car

24    into the water, and then the police from Otoka saved him from the crowd

25    and took him to the police station.  So this was an event that had

Page 13281

 1    disturbed the population prior to his arrest -- rather, that was the

 2    reason he was arrested and taken to the police station.

 3       Q.   When you speak about the people that were upset, are you speaking

 4    of -- of which ethnic group do you speak?

 5       A.   Of the Muslim ethnic group.

 6       Q.   Did Muslims gather around the police station, and did they pose a

 7    threat to the safety of Mr. Martic?

 8       A.   I heard that they did rally, and that this rally went on for a

 9    long time.  And there were fears that the Bosnian police would hand Martic

10    over to Croatia.

11       Q.   Was Martic released at some point in time, and who arranged for

12    this?

13       A.   Yes, he was, through the direct involvement of the Yugoslav

14    People's Army and through intervention from Belgrade.

15       Q.   Who intervened from Belgrade, and how do you know about it?

16       A.   Karadzic informed me about it.

17       Q.   And what did he tell you?

18       A.   He said that he had spoken to Milosevic and with representatives

19    of the army.

20       Q.   How was Mr. Martic taken out from Otoka?  Do you know that?  In

21    which way was that done, practically?

22       A.   I think it was by helicopter.

23       Q.   And where was he taken?

24       A.   To Knin.

25       Q.   Did you speak with him afterwards, and did he describe what had

Page 13282

 1    happened?

 2       A.   Yes.  There was a lot of talk about it, about this event, after

 3    it.  It was a major media event.  A whole campaign was made out of it.

 4    Martic was turned into a hero.

 5            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honours, we can go into open session

 6    again.

 7                          [Open session]

 8            THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session.

 9            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  With the help of the usher, I would like to

10    put to the witness the transcript of an intercepted conversation, tab 27

11    of Exhibit 353.

12            JUDGE MAY:  I need to speak to the legal officer, please.

13                          [Trial Chamber and senior legal officer confer]

14            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

15       Q.   Did you have an opportunity to listen in to a conversation between

16    Dobrica Cosic and Radovan Karadzic?

17       A.   Yes, I did.

18       Q.   Could you identify -- did you recognise the voices of the two?

19       A.   Yes, I did.  Karadzic and Cosic.

20       Q.   Were you familiar with the voice of Dobrica Cosic?

21       A.   Yes.  I talked to him personally on several occasions.

22       Q.   What was his position?

23       A.   He was a writer, a member of the Serbian Academy of Science and

24    Art, and later on president of the Federal Republic of Serbia.

25            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  For the usher, could we please put on the

Page 13283












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 13284

 1    ELMO the English version and, in particular, the first marked passage.

 2       Q.   And Witness, if you look into your Serbian version, there is a

 3    first on page 3.  It should be on page 3.  There is a marked version.  The

 4    marked version of page 3.  And let me read.

 5            Mr. Radovan Karadzic says:

 6            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Because they wanted to get Knin involved too,

 7    and so on, I told them not to do anything like that at all.

 8            Cosic then:

 9            DOBRICA COSIE:  Of course, of course.

10            And then:

11            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  This Milan guy has just made a stupid mistake,

12    and then my guys ... here, I've just spoken with the vice Premier, he's

13    our man, about this drill in Drvar.

14            And then Cosic asks:

15            DOBRICA COSIC:  What drill?

16            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Well, they conducted a drill today in Drvar,

17    with their, um ... unit, a hundred and fifty battalion, one hundred and

18    fifty special forces troops.

19            Witness, do you know from your own knowledge whether there was a

20    drill in Drvar of a unit and who did that?

21       A.   There was a drill by the special police force in Knin in the month

22    of July, 1991.

23       Q.   Does that mean the special police force of Milan Babic [sic]

24    conducted an exercise in Drvar?

25            JUDGE KWON:  Isn't it Milan Martic?

Page 13285

 1            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Milan Martic.  Yes.  Milan Martic, yes.

 2    Milan Martic.  I made a mistake.  Sorry.  Milan Martic.

 3       Q.   Yes.  Did --

 4       A.   That's right, yes, Milan Martic.

 5            JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Witness, do you have any idea when this dialogue

 6    took place?

 7            MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

 8            JUDGE MAY:  Let the witness answer the Judge's question first.

 9            JUDGE KWON:  Did you follow the question?

10            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This exercise took place in June

11    1991, and that's when this conversation was held.

12            JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

13            Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

14            MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it doesn't say

15    here -- in the text itself, it doesn't say "Milan Martic."  It just says

16    "Milan."  There's no surname.  So on the basis of what grounds is he able

17    to say that, which Milan is meant, whether it's Milan Martic or Milan

18    Babic?

19            JUDGE MAY:  Very well.  We can have a discussion about that in due

20    course.  He can be asked.

21            But the troubling matter is this:  We've got this arrest in

22    September, and this transcript seems to be dated the 8th of June.  Is that

23    right?

24            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, Your Honour.

25            JUDGE MAY:  So we're going back to June now.

Page 13286

 1            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  We are actually having one incident preceding

 2    this.

 3            JUDGE MAY:  Very well.

 4            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  The witness had referred to the fact that

 5    Martic was operating, and I actually have organised it to have that whole

 6    incidence and how it is connected.

 7            JUDGE MAY:  Very well.

 8            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

 9       Q.   Witness, then I would like to clarify a matter with you.  Did

10    Milan Martic organise this drill in Drvar?

11       A.   That's right.  Milan Martic took out the unit, about 100, 150 men,

12    and he publicly held this drill in Drvar.  This was common knowledge

13    through the media as well.

14       Q.   I would like to refer you now to the next marked passage, and if

15    the usher would put the English version, page 4 of the transcript, here.

16            Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Cosic are discussing the border crossing, and

17    it says:

18            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  And most concretely here, say, it could cause

19    the Bosnian MUP to control their border crossing more intensely.

20            DOBRICA COSIC: Of course, anything could happen.

21            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Well, I can't prevent that, and that is the

22    only place where they can be helped, through, which...

23            And then Radovan Karadzic also says:  "That's where their food

24    supplies are going through, their blankets and so on.  And then, the only

25    border which he should have spared of incidents, he is making stupid

Page 13287

 1    mistakes there."

 2            Did the fact that Mr. Martic organised an exercise in that region,

 3    Drvar, did that really endanger the supply routes to the Krajina?

 4       A.   No, it did not.

 5       Q.   Were blankets -- reference is made here to food supplies and

 6    blankets.  Were also weapons transported this route?

 7       A.   That's right.  Yes, it was the only entrance towards the Dalmatia

 8    and Lika part of the SAO Krajina, this entrance through Yugoslav

 9    territory.

10            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  We can turn now to the next intercept, and

11    that's actually an intercept that needs to be played, at least in part.

12    And I would request to have that played in private session, for an obvious

13    reason.  Your Honour, I forgot to tell you:  It's tab 12 in the intercept

14    binder, Exhibit 353.

15 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

16            THE REGISTRAR:  We're in private session.

17            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we hear the -- it's track 8.

18            JUDGE KWON:  If you could tell the page first.

19            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, Your Honour.  What you will hear is, in

20    the English translation, page 2, 3, 4, and a little bit of page 5, and it

21    starts with:  "I've just heard from Belgrade ..."

22                          [Intercept played]

23            SECOND MALE VOICE:  I've just heard from Belgrade that they said

24    something had happened in Otoka.

25            THIRD MALE VOICE:  Where is Otoka?

Page 13288

 1            SECOND MALE VOICE:  Next to Bosanska Krupa.

 2            THIRD MALE VOICE:  They've just now been telling me too.  I

 3    replied that we didn't know whether they were special forces from Krajina

 4    or not.  We don't know.  We know, for example, that there are members of

 5    the Croatian MUP calmly strolling around Mostar and Capljina, but no one

 6    has ever arrested them.

 7            SECOND MALE VOICE:  Were these men of mine in uniform then?

 8            THIRD MALE VOICE:  They were allegedly in uniform and they took

 9    three men.  Then others came in lorries.  They took them away by force and

10    left.  No one knows, I can't, we have no information that they were your

11    men.

12            SECOND MALE VOICE:  Aha.

13            THIRD MALE VOICE:  We don't know whether they were yours or not.

14    Anyone could have put on a uniform and messed around you see.

15            SECOND MALE VOICE:  I don't know.  I'm surprised that they told me

16    they were seen there and that a journalist from Belgrade television was

17    arrested and some arrests were made of these men.

18            THIRD MALE VOICE:  But they allegedly came in another lorry and

19    freed them.  Do you know what I think Milan?  That it's provocation, they

20    want to provoke the blocking of roads in that area by this means.

21            SECOND MALE VOICE:  Aha.

22            THIRD MALE VOICE:  So that we can't deliver blankets and medicine

23    to you, you understand?

24            SECOND MALE VOICE:  Yes, yes.

25            THIRD MALE VOICE:  Someone should strongly deny that they were

Page 13289

 1    your men, because we don't believe at all that they were yours.

 2            SECOND MALE VOICE:  I have no idea whether any of my men were

 3    there tonight, I was surprised when they told me.

 4            THIRD MALE VOICE:  Yes, yes.

 5            SECOND MALE VOICE:  And I'm checking, but no one has told me yet.

 6    I don't know.  There is no information on anything.

 7            THIRD MALE VOICE:  Who called you from Belgrade?

 8            SECOND MALE VOICE:  From the television.

 9            THIRD MALE VOICE:  Yes.

10            SECOND MALE VOICE:  They called me about their journalist.

11            THIRD MALE VOICE:  Yes, yes.

12            SECOND MALE VOICE:  And said that there had been demonstrations

13    and that arrests had been made there.

14            THIRD MALE VOICE:  See to it over there that some fool doesn't

15    send in a platoon or something because all they would try to do is block

16    the roads towards SAO Krajina to prevent us from getting there when we

17    need to or something like that.

18            SECOND MALE VOICE:  Yes, yes.

19            THIRD MALE VOICE:  That thing in Krupa is one half the

20    municipality, but about 30 per cent are Serbs.  However, the Serbian

21    territory is large over there on this side of the river.

22            SECOND MALE VOICE:  Yes, yes.

23            THIRD MALE VOICE:  However, they are certainly using this so they

24    can criticise Serbian officials here and block ... and take steps to block

25    these people and push the Muslims into an alliance with the Croats and

Page 13290

 1    war.

 2            SECOND MALE VOICE:  Yes, yes.

 3            THIRD MALE VOICE:  So please keep a tight reign on discipline over

 4    there, please, both you and Martic, don't allow any fool to do something

 5    under any circumstances.

 6            SECOND MALE VOICE:  There's no reason on our side, not a chance.

 7            THIRD MALE VOICE:  Then you can say that you're 100 per cent sure

 8    that that is not correct, that they were not your people.

 9            SECOND MALE VOICE:  Yes, yes.

10            THIRD MALE VOICE:  And it is quite likely that someone has dressed

11    up like that and is messing around you understand.

12            SECOND MALE VOICE:  Yes, everyone wears camouflage uniforms.

13            THIRD MALE VOICE:  Yes, it is very likely.  You should immediately

14    make an announcement.  First check that they were not your men, and if

15    they're not, not then ...

16            SECOND MALE VOICE:  I don't know whether they're my men.

17            THIRD MALE VOICE:  Yes, yes.

18            SECOND MALE VOICE:  I don't know, but no one tells me, so I've

19    been checking.

20            THIRD MALE VOICE:  Introduce the strictest discipline because they

21    will now use everything they can to accuse use us before Europe since

22    Tudjman will lose if this continues.

23            SECOND MALE VOICE:  Yes, yes.

24            THIRD MALE VOICE:  Both Genscher and Tudjman will lose and the

25    only thing worth their while is to prove that the Serbs and the army are

Page 13291

 1    attacking them, and not the other way around yes.  Because journalists

 2    have already testified in the French and English press that the Croats are

 3    the first to attack.

 4            SECOND MALE VOICE:  Yes, yes.

 5            THIRD MALE VOICE:  And it is obvious that war suits them.

 6            SECOND MALE VOICE:  We have no reason, absolutely none, neither

 7    reason nor need to pass, nor for my men to pass through there.

 8            THIRD MALE VOICE:  Please make sure that some fool hasn't acted on

 9    his own initiative and then prepare a statement that you had no reason nor

10    is it true that they were there.  We over here shall say it is not certain

11    that they were from the SAO Krajina but it is certain that Mostar and

12    Capljina are full of special forces from the Croatian MUP who are

13    strolling around Mostar freely.

14            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

15       Q.   Witness, whose two voices can we hear?

16       A.   My voice and the voice of Radovan Karadzic.

17       Q.   Did you have this conversation with Mr. Karadzic, and when?

18       A.   Yes, I did.  After the 7th.  That means on the 8th.  I assume it

19    was on the 8th, the 8th of September, 1991.

20       Q.   Had people from the Krajina been arrested, as discussed here?  Do

21    you know who was arrested?

22       A.   Well, there was an incident that took place, and I spoke about it

23    a moment ago, before Martic was actually arrested.  There was some sort of

24    incident in Otoka, in Bosanska Krupa.

25       Q.   Did it endanger the supply routes?  Did -- Mr. Karadzic and you

Page 13292

 1    are discussing the effect that these things may have on the supply routes,

 2    and especially, it is said, so that the delivery of blankets and medicine

 3    would be received.  Did he really mean delivery of blankets and medicine,

 4    or what were you actually talking about with him?

 5       A.   He meant weapons.  Nobody would have blocked it for blankets or

 6    the like, medicines.

 7       Q.   Yes.  I would like now to turn to the --

 8            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, this exhibit needs to be under

 9    seal.

10            I would like now to turn to the next intercept, and it's tab 14 in

11    the intercept binder.  And of course we can go into open session again.

12                          [Open session]

13            THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session.

14            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  It's track 9, for the technical booth.  Can

15    we please have that played.  And beforehand, I have to tell you:  In the

16    English version, it starts on page 1, with the sentence:  "I have an

17    information, I don't know whether it's true, that Martic was arrested,"

18    and it ends on page 2 with the sentence:  "It is all scenario that they

19    prepared."

20            JUDGE KWON:  Before that, I have a question.

21            Mr. Witness, was it also popular among the politicians to call

22    weapons as blankets or medicines or something like that?

23            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Yes.  It was moderately coded,

24    of course.

25            JUDGE KWON:  What else were the weapons called other than blankets

Page 13293

 1    and medicines?

 2            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Planks, wooden boards.  That was the

 3    first term used.  Flour, sugar, batteries.

 4            JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 5            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.  We could play now the intercept, the

 6    part of it.

 7                          [Intercept played]

 8            JS:  I have a piece of information, I don't know whether it's

 9    true, that Martic was arrested somewhere in Bosanska Krupa.

10            RK:  No, no, it's not Martic, but Martic's men allegedly, three

11    Martic men were arrested, and then a truckload of Martic men came and

12    liberated -- those three Martic men and allegedly some Television Belgrade

13    journalist in some ...

14            JS:  Martic wasn't there.

15            RK:  No, no, Martic wasn't there.  But I just called Babic, he

16    says he has no knowledge that any of their men were there.  I think it is

17    a provocation, that it is them, we will deny it resolutely.  We can also

18    affirmatively prove that there is a lot of MUP Croatia men in Capljina and

19    Mostar walking around freely, and no one can prove that Martic's men were

20    there because there is no information that they were there or that they

21    needed to go there, to go through Krupa.  Someone wants to close the roads

22    to SAO Krajina.

23            JS:  Yes, yes, want to close roads, correct.

24            RK:  And they're using, they're using provocation and want to

25    close the roads.  I think it's them, they need a crisis and I think they

Page 13294












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13   English transcripts.













Page 13295

 1    staged it all.

 2            JS:  Staged, right.

 3            RK:  Yes, and the arrival of that truck.  Hello.

 4            JS:  Yes, yes, I can hear you.

 5            RK:  The arrival of that truck and everything else, the kidnapping

 6    and it wouldn't be possible, I think it's all lies and staged.  It's all

 7    staged because Babic has no information about it, he investigated whether

 8    any groups went anywhere, and there's nothing about any of that.  They had

 9    no need to go there otherwise and they should be told not to go anywhere

10    in Bosnia because in our municipalities we keep things in our own hands,

11    no need for everyone to come anywhere.

12            JS:  Yes, yes they won't, won't come, nor do they have a need to.

13            RK:  They have no need to come at all.  Those are not Martic's men

14    for sure but they need a crisis and drama and so on.  He wants to

15    internationalise, Alija Izetbegovic wants to internationalise Bosnia and

16    therefore he shouldn't be helped in doing that.  Here, I told Babic down

17    there tough discipline should be imposed not to move, no one to move

18    outside.  All military factors should be under single command, and total

19    military factors should be in agreement with the political factor, because

20    we have information, we know what they want.

21            JS:  Aha.

22            RK:  They wanted to, they banged the army near Okucani and they

23    banged ours near Okucani.  They were looking for an opportunity for

24    someone to make a move so they can fuck up the conference in The Hague.

25    Because if a fax arrived that we moved and that was confirmed, Tudjman and

Page 13296

 1    Genscher would have left the conference and Croatia would have been

 2    recognised, troops would be sent there, et cetera.  It's all scenario that

 3    they prepared.

 4            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you.

 5       Q.   Witness, who -- did you recognise the voices of the people who

 6    spoke?

 7       A.   Yes, I did.  Jovica Stanisic and Radovan Karadzic.

 8            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I would like to turn now to the next

 9    intercept, and this is not an intercept to be played.  It's tab 13 in the

10    intercept binder, and I just want to discuss some marked passages with the

11    witness.  The first is on page 28 of the English, 28, in the middle, in

12    the middle of the page, actually.  On the ELMO.  Yes

13       Q.   Witness, if you look at your first marked part in the Serbian

14    transcript, it says here:

15            K:  So this information is certain.  Milan Martic, make a note of

16    this, to convey, the information, to Mr. Cengic.  Milan Martic, and,

17    Lieutenant Colonel Dusan Biljanic, one of his escorts.

18            R:  Were they all in uniform?

19            K:  I don't know how they were, dressed but anyway, Milan Martic,

20    Dusan Biljanic, one of his escorts who is a Lieutenant Colonel, our men

21    and Milan Boric staff sergeant were there.

22            Did you have an opportunity to listen to this intercept while you

23    had your conversations with the Prosecutor; and if so, did you recognise

24    who was speaking?

25       A.   Yes, I did.  I recognised the voice of Radovan Karadzic.

Page 13297

 1       Q.   Did you recognise the voice of this other person who is here

 2    called -- who introduce themselves as "I am Lieutenant Colonel Kostic"?

 3       A.   No, I did not.

 4       Q.   Did this intercept refer to the arrest of Milan Martic?

 5       A.   Yes, that was mentioned.

 6       Q.   And the Lieutenant Colonel Dusan Biljanic who was mentioned here,

 7    is that correct or is the name misspelled?

 8       A.   It is Smiljanic.  Smiljanic was there.  "Biljanic" is incorrect.

 9       Q.   And following the -- following the transcript --

10            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, we have to go into private

11    session for one short moment.

12 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

13            THE REGISTRAR:  We're in private session.

14            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  The usher can -- does not need to move it.

15       Q.   When you look into the next marked paragraph, there is a reference

16    to you, and Mr. Radovan Karadzic says that he spoke to you, that you knew

17    about it.  That's correct?

18       A.   Yes.

19            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I think the rest of the transcript speaks for

20    itself and it needs not be addressed with the witness.  Thank you.

21            The next tab is tab 7 in the intercept binder.

22       Q.   Witness, did you also listen to another intercept between

23    Colonel Kostic and Karadzic?

24            JUDGE MAY:  Open session?

25            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, open session.  Thank you.

Page 13298

 1                          [Open session]

 2            THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session.

 3            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

 4       Q.   Did you also have the opportunity to listen to this conversation

 5    that you have now in written form in front of you, another intercept

 6    between Karadzic and Colonel Kostic, referring to 3.000 people coming to

 7    the police station?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   Did you get information that actually 3.000 people were gathering

10    there?

11       A.   Yes, that's right.

12            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  We can now turn to the next intercept.  It's

13    tab 8, and we are actually playing a part of it.  And for the technical

14    booth, it's track 10, and for Your Honours it is tab 8, and the part that

15    is played actually starts on page 1 with the word "Hallo," and ends -- the

16    part we play ends on ten page -- sorry, page 10, and ends with the

17    sentence:

18            M:  I'll deal with.  I'll try to get hold of Veljko.

19                          [Intercept played]

20            THE INTERPRETER:  [Voiceover]

21            XY:  Hallo.

22            R:  Hallo.  I'm sorry, Sarajevo calling again.  It's very urgent.

23    I have to speak to the president.

24            XY:  Just a moment.

25            M:  Good morning.  What's the time?

Page 13299

 1            R:  It's two o'clock.  I'm sorry, we've been calling you all day,

 2    but we didn't manage to...

 3            M:  No problem.  I didn't have your phone here.

 4            R:  So here's what this is about.  The problem is serious.  The

 5    SUP of Bosnia and Herzegovina were there - the Otoka public security

 6    station which comes under Bosanska Krupa - has detained a colonel, a

 7    sergeant, and Martic, and his escort.  And now the SDA over there has

 8    probably organised a gathering of people.  There are already 3.000 people

 9    with tractors and whatnot, and one can't do anything, the army, until

10    someone from the top does something.  But there will be a disaster.  The

11    Serbs from Bosnian Krajina and from SAO Krajina will rush in and the

12    danger will be great.  I mean, we won't be able to control it at all.

13            M:  Right.  Aren't there any HDZ members there who could...

14            R:  No, the HDZ has nothing to do with it.  The entire region is

15    Serbian and Muslim.

16            M:  And neither is the SDA which could...

17            R:  No.  The SAO is influential there, and they could top it.  I'm

18    in touch with Cengic now and I'll try to...

19            M:  They have been detained by the MUP?

20            R:  Yes, that's right.  They came for some kind of discussions and

21    were detained, and now the people have gathered there.  Even these

22    military circles don't believe it's spontaneous either.  Now the danger is

23    increasing from one minute to the next.

24            M:  Who has assembled there?  Have the SDA members assembled?

25            R:  Yes, yes.  The SDA too, and that colonel is there.  They

Page 13300

 1    offered to let the colonel go but he didn't want to, and those from the

 2    army didn't allow it either.

 3            M:  So, they are together, is that right?

 4            R:  Yes, yes.

 5            M:  Where is this exactly?

 6            R:  It's in Otoka, Bosanska Krupa.  Otoka is on the border towards

 7    Bosanski Novi.  And now the Serbian forces in Dvor na Uni and in Knin have

 8    been aroused and they want to set off from the two directions below.

 9            M:  How far is it from there?

10            R:  I don't know.  I don't have it here on the map, but we'll be

11    there in three or four hours.  The aircraft can't take off now.

12    Helicopters can't get through.  And 10, 15, 20 policemen will come from

13    Bihac, but that is nothing, nothing.  The army must get involved.

14            M:  It must.  How long until dawn, two hours at least?  There's no

15    helicopter.  It's not possible to leave either.

16            R:  Yes, it's not possible before dawn, and in the dark it's risky

17    business for both the pilot and the helicopter, but they have to know

18    about this.  They know about this in the General Staff, but they don't

19    have the initiative.

20            M:  So what are they waiting for, God's blessing?

21            R:  Yes.

22            M:  It's at Bosanski Novi, you say.  So Otoka.

23            R:  At the border between Bosanski Novi and Bosanska Krupa, but it

24    comes under Bosanska Krupa.

25            M:  Uh-huh, right.

Page 13301

 1            R:  It's a matter of minutes here.  It can certainly be ... the

 2    whole of Knin is on its feet, their special units stirring and they are

 3    very, very ... they must be quickly told that they have to be released,

 4    otherwise there will be serious problems.

 5            M:  I'll deal with it.  I'll get hold of Veljko.

 6            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you.

 7       Q.   Who -- did you recognise the voices of the two speakers?

 8       A.   Yes, I did.  Radovan Karadzic and Slobodan Milosevic.

 9       Q.   When did that conversation take place?  Can you tell from the

10    contents?

11       A.   It took place between the 8th and 9th or the 9th and 10th of

12    September, 1991.

13            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, on the transcript is the wrong

14    date.

15       Q.   Were you aware that Mr. Milosevic got involved?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   And Mr. Milosevic says at the end of the tape that we played, he

18    says:

19            M:  I'll deal with it.  I'll try to get hold of Veljko.

20            Do you know of which Veljko he's speaking?

21       A.   General Veljko Kadijevic.

22       Q.   What is the basis of this?  Why do you think he's referring to

23    Veljko Kadijevic?

24       A.   So that the army would be engaged in liberating Martic, in freeing

25    Martic from Krupa.

Page 13302

 1       Q.   Witness, Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Milosevic are discussing this as a

 2    very serious event, and they make references that the Serbs from Bosnian

 3    Krajina and from the SAO Krajina will rush in and the danger will be

 4    great.  Did this actually -- this event actually cause the -- did -- was

 5    there actually danger that a war would break out if something would happen

 6    to Martic?

 7       A.   There was a danger that an ethnic conflict would break out between

 8    the Serbs and the Muslims.

 9       Q.   And were --

10            JUDGE KWON:  Excuse me, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.  Was Mr. Martic

11    arrested at this time, 8th of September?

12            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

13       Q.   Was he arrested on the 8th of September?

14       A.   Yes.  He was arrested in Otoka, in the municipality of Bosanska

15    Krupa, in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, or he was detained, or he

16    was kept in custody at the police station.  Perhaps that would be the

17    right wording.

18            JUDGE KWON:  As of 8th of September.

19            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.  The witness actually had said he wasn't

20    sure whether it was the 8th or the 9th or the 7th or the 8th.  So he

21    couldn't be precise as to the exact day.  One day or the other, the 8th

22    or --

23       Q.   But let me confirm with you.

24            JUDGE MAY:  I think he gave, because I asked him, and he gave a

25    broader spread of dates.  Between the 7th and the 11th he gave.

Page 13303

 1            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.  Is that --

 2            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.  Let's move on.

 3            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.

 4       Q.   Did actually the Serbs in the SAO Krajina prepare to move in to

 5    free Mr. Martic?  Do you know that?

 6       A.   Yes.  They were preparing, the special police was, from the

 7    direction of Dvor na Uni and Bosanski Novi.

 8       Q.   We can turn to the next intercept, but it would have to be in

 9    closed session again.  It's also something that we are going to play

10    partly.  And for the technical booth, it's track 11, and for Your Honours

11    it's tab 9 of the exhibit binder, and we are actually playing page 1, 2,

12    and up to the last paragraph of page 3 of the English transcript.

13 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

14            THE REGISTRAR:  We're in private session now.

15                          [Intercept played]

16            THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

17            SECOND MALE VOICE:  Hello, it's Radovan.

18            FIRST MALE VOICE:  Go ahead.

19            SECOND MALE VOICE:  So I've informed Milosevic, and he will inform

20    Kadijevic. It's going to be more complicated over there, there are too

21    many people, and they have all organised themselves with tractors.  They

22    have destroyed this military car.

23            FIRST MALE VOICE:  Yes.  They say that they threw them and the car

24    into the water.

25            SECOND MALE VOICE:  Yes, but they are still in the station, isn't

Page 13304

 1    that right?

 2            FIRST MALE VOICE:  Yes.  I've just -- and they told me that they

 3    would let me speak to him in about ten minutes' time.  They have now sent

 4    in two civilians, these citizens, speak to him.

 5            SECOND MALE VOICE:  Aha.

 6            FIRST MALE VOICE:  These reinforcements have come from Bihac, and

 7    they are now apparently waiting for a special unit.

 8            SECOND MALE VOICE:  There are about 30 of them somewhere in the

 9    vicinity, but I ask you Dvor na Uni to prepare your men so that they may

10    freely enter from the side of Bosanski Brod and prepare themselves for the

11    possibility of taking him over there anywhere but...

12            FIRST MALE VOICE:  Are these --

13            SECOND MALE VOICE:  Yes.  Let them approach from the Novi side,

14    from the Bosanski Novi side.  Let them move up there.  Let them approach

15    freely and report to the commander, that chief in Bosanski Novi.  They

16    should say that I said they should be allowed to approach from that side

17    with a view to taking it over while you keep the others in full

18    readiness.  Milosevic will inform Kadijevic, and the army will get fully

19    involved.  We'll bring this bloody mess with our partners to an end.

20    We'll never forget what they did, and they'll loose a state for what

21    they've done tonight.

22            FIRST MALE VOICE:  Of course.

23            SECOND MALE VOICE:  They'll never do this again.  We'll finish

24    with them.  Fuck them.

25            FIRST MALE VOICE: ...such a state.

Page 13305












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Page 13306

 1            SECOND MALE VOICE:  We'll finish this business with them.  They

 2    have shown us who they are and what they can do, but please put all of

 3    these on full alert in the border areas in the direction of Titova

 4    Korenica so they can be received, and I think it's possible in the

 5    direction of Petrovac too, to take them towards Petrovac and then

 6    Petrovac, Drvar, Knin.

 7            FIRST MALE VOICE:  It's enough to return them from Otoka, the

 8    village is ours, up towards Novi.

 9            SECOND MALE VOICE:  Towards Novi, you mean?

10            FIRST MALE VOICE:  Yes.

11            SECOND MALE VOICE:  You go to that village freely, from Dvor na

12    Uni.

13            FIRST MALE VOICE:  We have to call these persons to tell them up

14    there.

15            SECOND MALE VOICE:  From Dvor na Uni, and tell the chief and the

16    president of the municipality, the chief in Bosanski Novi, that it has

17    been agreed with me that...

18            FIRST MALE VOICE:  To take them up over there.

19            Uh-huh.  Look into this, please.  The Croatian MUP is desperately

20    interested in this matter.  The phones have been constantly ringing for

21    two hours.  They'll try to grab him.

22            FIRST MALE VOICE:  All right.

23            SECOND MALE VOICE:  They'll do it.  It's very important that these

24    people, they can do their duty, but to set things up for the MUP of

25    Croatia to take him.  For this reason, prepare strong forces on all

Page 13307

 1    routes.

 2            SECOND MALE VOICE:  Position strong forces on all axes and have

 3    strong forces approach from the Bosanski Novi side trained so that they

 4    can take over and ensure that he is not taken away by the Croatian MUP.

 5            FIRST MALE VOICE:  All right.

 6            SECOND MALE VOICE:  Otherwise, you should know that up there both

 7    Milosevic and Kadijevic know, and that if only it were possible to hold

 8    out until dawn, then the helicopters would come in and they would...

 9            FIRST MALE VOICE:  This one told me they had dispersed a bit down

10    there in Otoka.  Only the most persistent have remained.  A policeman who

11    came to help from Bihac told me this, I have just spoken to him.

12            SECOND MALE VOICE:  I don't trust them.

13            FIRST MALE VOICE:  Uh-huh.

14            SECOND MALE VOICE:  I don't trust them.  They all lie.  Cengic is

15    lying, and they're all lying.  Cengic has spoken to me over the past two

16    or three times.  They're lying.  I mean they set it all up.  They set up

17    their malicious little acts, and they don't realise that it makes the

18    state tremble.  They don't know that you can't take the Serbs lightly.

19    They like to turn back now, but it's gotten out of hand.

20            FIRST MALE VOICE:  Yes, yes they've forgotten what really happened

21    in Kijevo.

22            SECOND MALE VOICE:  I ... they don't believe.  I don't trust them

23    at all, so please be fully prepared.  They said Karadzic told me and --

24    told me that he could not give me any guarantees.  Because I told Cengic I

25    couldn't lie to Babic and tell him I guaranteed everything would be all

Page 13308

 1    right.  I'm telling I can't give you any guarantees, and I give you full

 2    authority, as far as the Bosnian side is concerned, and especially the

 3    Serbian municipalities, to prepare everything.

 4            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.  Thank you.

 5       Q.   Witness, who is having this conversation?  Did you recognise the

 6    voices?

 7       A.   I and Radovan Karadzic.

 8       Q.   When did this conversation take place?

 9       A.   Between the 8th and the 9th or the 9th and 10th of September,

10    1991.

11       Q.   Do you recall at what time of the day it was?

12       A.   During the night.

13       Q.   Mr. Karadzic is actually telling you that you should prepare, get

14    ready to take over and get involved in the takeover of Mr. Martic.  Did

15    you actually prepare for taking him over at the border?

16       A.   That's what the police did.  I was informed about that by Nikola

17    Manovic.

18       Q.   In this conversation, you make -- you say to Mr. Karadzic:

19    "They've forgotten what really happened to Kijevo."

20            Why did you make this remark?  What did you mean to say?

21       A.   The army destroyed Kijevo.

22       Q.   Was that what the Muslims would have experienced if they hadn't

23    released Martic?

24       A.   Possibly.

25       Q.   Is that what you thought at that time would be a consequence of

Page 13309

 1    not releasing Martic?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  We can go back into open session.  And, Your

 4    Honour, this last intercept needs to be under seal.

 5                          [Open session]

 6            THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session.

 7            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

 8       Q.   Witness, the next intercept is tab 10 in the intercept binder, and

 9    for the technical booth, it is track 12, and we also play a part of it,

10    and we play -- from the English transcripts it's page 15, we play

11    entirely.  And from page 16, we play only up till "Certainly suits Tudjman

12    and perhaps Alija too."

13                          [Intercept played]

14            THE INTERPRETER:  [Voiceover]

15            R:  Hello.

16            M:  Hello, Radovan.  I've spoken to him --

17            R:  Uh-huh, what does he say?

18            M:  He didn't know anything.  He was sleeping.  He -- it was

19    probably one of his men from the General Staff who received the

20    information you told me.  I told him I was informed that we were informed,

21    and I presented the situation to him as being very serious.  He

22    immediately took measures, and he said he would immediately take

23    measures.  Banja Luka is the nearest place in which there are substantial

24    forces which can deal with it immediately.  It is night-time and

25    helicopters can't fly immediately, but we'll see how to deal it as soon as

Page 13310

 1    it dawns.  Jovica tells me that some helicopter has left to get this

 2    person.

 3            R:  Nothing has left and that's the problem.  I'm afraid that MUP,

 4    the Muslim part of MUP, shall hand him over to the Croatian MUP.  Someone

 5    might arrange this.  And then it will be war in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 6    Then no one will be able to stop it.

 7            M:  No one could stop it then.

 8            R:  No one would be able to stop it then.  And I don't know to

 9    what extent war would suit Alija, because he wants to...

10            M:  Uh-huh.  Vajnes was with me for about 15 minutes just now, and

11    I suggested to Jovica, since he was in touch with Milan, to say that

12    Martic should sign this protocol on this technical ... on the supervision

13    of the cease-fire and respect -- no one shall open fire first.

14            R:  Uh-huh, Uh-huh.

15            M:  Babic agreed to this and didn't sign because they didn't want

16    him to say that he was the president of the government of Krajina but

17    instead wanted him to accept him as the representative of the Serbs in

18    Croatia who is signing this in their name.

19            R:  Uh-huh.

20            M:  So I told Jovica to say that Martic would sign and that that

21    would be an additional reason for which he should have to be free for this

22    to work.

23            R:  No, we'll take political advantage of this today.  I have a

24    meeting with Izetbegovic again today.  They are simply heading towards a

25    division of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  We will carry out the establishment of

Page 13311

 1    regions and set up our MUPs wherever we are in power because what they

 2    have done is intolerable.  We don't believe in any sort of spontaneity on

 3    their part, spontaneity of the gathering.  The SDA has influence and power

 4    over there, and it all goes towards their ... but if the army doesn't sent

 5    a helicopter or an armoured personnel carrier as soon as possible to get

 6    the man out, then the danger will be great.  Milan Brzakse has a permanent

 7    line to the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina , to the part that is not under our

 8    control.  It is a great danger.  It would be a disaster if it happened.

 9            M:  I told the mechanism to tell Kadijevic that this should be

10    quieted down.

11            R:  Yes, but we can check with Adzic what they have done?

12            M:  I was in touch with Kadijevic and he said that he would see

13    how things stood.  I haven't spoken to Adzic again this morning but I'll

14    call him now.

15            R:  Uh-huh.  Do you want me to call him?  It would be better for

16    me to call him?

17            M:  It will be better for me to call him, but you can call him

18    too.  My call needn't exclude yours.

19            R:  All right.

20            M:  Tell him things are the way they are and that I told you that

21    I had spoken to him last night and that you were surprised that they

22    haven't finished with it yet.

23            R:  Their colonel is there too and a staff sergeant, but I mean

24    this is incredible.  We don't at all know who is in touch with the

25    Ustashas from the Bosnia-Herzegovina MUP, and internationalising chaos in

Page 13312

 1    Bosnia-Herzegovina certainly suits Tudjman and perhaps Alija too.

 2            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you.

 3       Q.   Witness, who is speaking, and do you know when this conversation

 4    took place?

 5       A.   Radovan Karadzic and Slobodan Milosevic.  This was on the 8th or

 6    9th of September, 1991, in relation to Martic's arrest in Otoka.

 7       Q.   All these conversations that we heard, were they actually -- did

 8    they actually occur on that same day or through the same night?

 9       A.   That's right, the night and the day, the morning after.

10       Q.   And in this conversation, reference is made to "Jovica."  Which

11    Jovica?

12       A.   Jovica Stanisic.

13       Q.   Was there any other Jovica in -- closely associated with the MUP,

14    Serbia, or Mr. Milosevic that could have been meant other than Stanisic?

15       A.   I don't know about anything like that.

16       Q.   Witness, there is a reference also made to the fact that Martic

17    should sign this protocol.  What kind of a protocol is talked about in

18    relation to Wijnaendts?

19       A.   Mr. Wijnaendts was representative of the international community

20    or, rather, the European Community.  This was a protocol relating to the

21    cease-fire, and this was actually in preparation of The Hague conference.

22       Q.   There is also mention made in this -- in this conversation to a

23    person Adzic.  Do you know who, who is meant?

24       A.   General Adzic.

25       Q.   And there is also mentioned a certain Milan Brzakse.  Do you know

Page 13313

 1    who that is?

 2       A.   Milan Brzakse, Minister or Deputy Minister of the MUP of Croatia.

 3       Q.   Yes.  That's enough for this intercept.

 4            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I would like to put to the witness two

 5    intercepts now, just very briefly, also dealing with that same issue, and

 6    it's tab 35 and --

 7            JUDGE MAY:  We're still in closed session -- private session.  If

 8    so, we should go into open session.

 9            THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session.

10            JUDGE MAY:  We are in open session.  Very well.

11            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I would like to put to the witness tab 35 and

12    tab 34.

13       Q.   Witness, during your conversation with the Prosecutor and while

14    you were listening in to intercepts, did you hear two conversations

15    between Karadzic and Nikola Koljevic dealing and referring to the Martic

16    arrest?

17       A.   I did.

18       Q.   Did you recognise the voices?

19       A.   I did.

20       Q.   Were you familiar with Mr. Koljevic's voice, and what kind of a

21    voice did he have?

22       A.   Yes.  A soft voice, soft.

23       Q.   Did you have opportunity to speak to him and hear his voice?

24       A.   Yes, many times.

25            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honours, those texts and transcripts

Page 13314

 1    speak for themselves, and I wouldn't need to discuss them with the

 2    witness.

 3            JUDGE MAY:  Very well.

 4            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

 5       Q.   The next intercept is tab 11, and we will play a part of it.  For

 6    the technical booth, it's track 13, and for you, Your Honour, for your

 7    orientation, it's -- in the translation, it's page 21, starting with, "I

 8    assume that you've been informed," and ending on page 22 with the half

 9    sentence, "... as we do towards ourselves."

10                          [Intercept played]

11            THE INTERPRETER:  [Voiceover]

12            M:  I assume that you've been informed about this thing, I told

13    them to inform you about Martic.

14            R:  Yes, but it was mainly Aco who did it.

15            M:  Aco Vasiljevic, that is.  That's Veljko and Adzic.

16            R:  No.  I understand Alija very well now, and I'm very

17    disappointed.  I had to tell him this, otherwise he said he had to consult

18    lawyers.  You don't need lawyers if there's no arrest warrant.  This is

19    not a federal arrest warrant.  We don't recognise the government, and we

20    don't want to get involved in these things.  He's not a drugs smuggler.

21    The whole thing has misfired for him now since he wanted to hand this one

22    over to them, but now he has been saved and Alija doesn't know what to do

23    now.

24            R:  All of this goes to show what kind of government we would be

25    living under if we left Yugoslavia.  I'm grateful to them because they are

Page 13315

 1    screwing us.  We are who we are.

 2            M:  Please, we are on our way.  No more concessions to anyone.

 3    And if they want to fight, we're here and they can go to hell.  We're here

 4    for whoever wants to fight and we're stronger.

 5            R:  And if they want to live in peace, we're here.  No one will be

 6    either better or worse off than we are.

 7            M:  Whoever wants to follow Alija and fight against us can do so.

 8    They will lose and it will be a pleasure for us, but if they want to be

 9    honest and decent towards us, we will behave towards them as we do towards

10    ourselves.

11            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.  Thank you.

12       Q.   Witness, do you recognise the voices?

13       A.   Yes.  Slobodan Milosevic and Radovan Karadzic.

14            JUDGE MAY:  Just a moment.

15            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On the transcript it said tab 13.

16    Tab 13 is a conversation between Karadzic and General Kostic.  So I don't

17    know what it is.  It says tab 13.  That's what the transcript says.

18            JUDGE MAY:  It's tab 11.  I don't know why the transcript got it

19    wrong if it did.  Counsel clearly said tab 11.

20            So you can follow it, Mr. Milosevic, if you go to tab 11 and then

21    if you look at the passage which has been played, it's been the bottom of

22    page 21.  If you look at the bottom, there are some page numbers.

23            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  All right.  This was

24    just a technical matter, Mr. May.  There is often quite a bit of confusion

25    amongst these documents of theirs.  You see for yourself that it was 13

Page 13316












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 13317

 1    that was written here.  Okay.

 2            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.

 3            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.

 4       Q.   Do you know when this conversation took place?  From the contents,

 5    can you say?

 6       A.   On the 9th or 10th of September, 1991.

 7            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, the date on the transcript is

 8    wrong.

 9            JUDGE KWON:  And for the fairness of the record, I note the

10    Prosecutor said tab 11 and track 13 for the audio-video unit.

11            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

12       Q.   Witness, in relation to this intercept, I have a question which

13    relates to a part that was not played, but immediately above the part

14    where we started to play - and it's on page 21, Your Honours - there is

15    reference made by Mr. Milosevic, and I quote:

16            M:  I'll tell Goran now that he should get information on the

17    names from your people, to call them all and then cause some trouble.

18            Which Goran is mentioned?  Do you know that?  Which Goran is

19    referred to?  Can you see it from the contents?

20       A.   Goran the chef de cabinet of president.  It was Goran Milicevic.

21    I think that Milicevic is what Goran's last name is.

22       Q.   And after the text that we played there is another -- another

23    quote I want to make and put to you.  It's actually a few lines below the

24    played text.

25            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  And it is on page 22, Your Honours, almost at

Page 13318

 1    the end of it.

 2       Q.   Mr. Milosevic says:

 3            M:  Please give Krajisnik good instructions.  Let him go to

 4    Strasbourg and get in touch with Ajga.  They can go together on the

 5    federal plane.

 6            Do you know which -- what was going on in Strasbourg and what

 7    Mr. Milosevic refers to here?

 8       A.   Some meeting.  I don't know exactly.

 9       Q.   Thank you.

10            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  And in the context of the Martic arrest there

11    is one more intercept, and it's tab 1 in the intercept binder, and I just

12    want to put it briefly.  It's tab 1A, I'm just informed; not tab 1, but

13    tab 1A.

14       Q.   While you listened in to all the tapes in the Prosecutor's office

15    during your stay in The Hague, did you hear also this telephone

16    conversation with Radovan Karadzic and again Lieutenant Colonel Kostic,

17    referring to all -- the fact that all four are safe?  On the first page

18    there is the mentioning:  "All four are safe."  Do you recall to have

19    heard that?

20       A.   Yes, I remember this.

21       Q.   And Mr. Radovan Karadzic says:  "Excellent.  Thank you very much,

22    and many thanks to Aco."  Do you know to which Aco he is referring?

23       A.   Aco Vasiljevic, head of security of the JNA.

24       Q.   Thank you.

25            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honours, this concludes the

Page 13319

 1    Martic-arrest-related intercepts, and I would now return to some other

 2    intercepts that refer to incidents that the witness has already spoken

 3    about, in particular, international conferences.

 4            JUDGE MAY:  This would obviously be a convenient time to break.

 5    We'll adjourn now, 20 minutes.

 6                          --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

 7                          --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

 8            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.

 9            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10            Your Honour, before I turn to the next intercept, my colleague

11    Ms. Bauer has told me and reminded me that in relation to Mr. Milan

12    Martic, we have four outstanding exhibits explaining his position, and I

13    just want to tender them and discuss them briefly.  And can the witness be

14    shown exhibits -- tab 50, 51, 52 and 53 of Exhibit 352.  And we actually

15    do not need to discuss them.  The witness should just briefly look at it.

16       Q.   Tab 50 is a document regarding a decision to establish the

17    Secretariat of Interior of the Serbian Autonomous Region of Krajina from

18    January 1991.

19            Witness, this document is not signed.  Was it passed?  Was a

20    decision --

21       A.   Yes.  Yes.

22       Q.   And the next tab, 51, is appointment of Martic as Secretary of

23    Interior in January of 1991; tab 52 are the minutes of the Executive

24    Council related to these decisions; and tab 53 is the decree on internal

25    organisation of the Secretariat of Internal Affairs from January 1991.

Page 13320

 1            You would not need to look into these exhibits, just to -- could

 2    you confirm the authenticity of these documents?

 3       A.   Yes, they are authentic.

 4       Q.   Thank you.

 5            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  That should be enough for the documents.

 6            Your Honours, when we tried to play this intercept -- this is the

 7    intercept that we tried to play, when we gave it up for a while.  That's

 8    the intercept where there was quite some noise in the beginning, and I

 9    have to say that we were not able to actually reduce the noise, but I have

10    to tell you that it's only lasting for a brief period.  And for some

11    technical reason I cannot explain, this noise cannot -- this part of the

12    intercept cannot be cut out.  But the intercept that actually the -- the

13    important section of the intercept is then understood clearly, so I would

14    have to ask you to endure the noise and wait until the text comes.

15            What it is is the intercept tab 30, and for the technical booth,

16    it's track 4.  And actually, the translation of the part that we are going

17    to hear is page 1, the lower -- the bottom section, starting with:  "Three

18    months are out of question..."  And it stops on page 2 with the sentence:

19    "Milan from down there, and, and, if it's needed, Momir from down there,

20    and, I don't know, sit for an hour or two, till..."  This is the section

21    we are going to play and that will be understandable.

22            JUDGE MAY:  Very well.

23            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.  Thank you.

24            Could you start it?

25                          [Intercept played]

Page 13321

 1            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  Three months are out of the question.  I

 2    think that some things should be radically changed now, radically.

 3            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Yes.

 4            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  And that there is no place in the army which

 5    is pro-Yugoslavian by orientation for those shooting at its soldiers'

 6    backs.

 7            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Yes, yes.

 8            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  You see, that is that.

 9            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Yes, yes.  What can make additional problems is

10    that we decided to keep here, yes, to have them be late so that they

11    cannot join them anywhere, well, I think they are having their three-day

12    rest, and there Gligorov and this man are going to work again and so on.

13            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  They have nothing more to do.  Now we are the

14    ones making the move, it's time for our move now.  Gligorov and that man

15    can do whatever they want, they won't ... the thing is clear there, we

16    can't discuss it in detail now.  They want to separate.

17            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  That's clear.

18            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  That's clear and they should be allowed to

19    separate.

20            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Yes.

21            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  Now there is only one question left, to have

22    disintegration in line with our inclinations.

23            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Yes.

24            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  Nothing more.

25            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Okay.  They cannot wait for that man any more,

Page 13322

 1    because they are in a hurry, aren't they?

 2            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  Who are they expecting?

 3            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  The first one expected by them is this man of

 4    ours.  Bosnia.

 5            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  Well, they mustn't wait for him, no,

 6    concerning Slovenia, I would let them go immediately.

 7            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Yes.

 8            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  Let them go immediately, and the others as

 9    well after they have settled the issue of borders with us.  And I cannot

10    let your man, because your man cannot even bring it to you.

11            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Yes.

12            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  You do not permit him to.

13            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Yes, yes.  That's true, it's the truth for the

14    moment being, but if ... you see, tonight we have had them shooting, they

15    have shot at, at the uncle's windows ... they have had a burst fired at

16    his window.  These are now some trial actions, adaptations, etc.  So that

17    what is, what is, should be good to be done is to do things very quickly.

18            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  We should take radical steps, and speed up

19    things.  It's a completely clear thing.

20            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Yes.

21            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  Take radical steps and speed things up, and

22    we shall see if the European Community is going to fulfil their

23    guarantees, if they are going to stop that violence and if they are going

24    to suspend their decisions.

25            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Is the issue in connection with Serbian

Page 13323

 1    violence in Croatia, is that the condition?

 2            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  Everything is inside, any violence must be

 3    stopped.

 4            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Yes.  Yes.  Well, I think it would be necessary

 5    to sit, tomorrow or the day after tomorrow, we from here, Milan from down

 6    there, and, if needed, Momir from down there, and, I don't know, sit for

 7    an hour or two, till...

 8            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  The best is tomorrow.

 9            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Nikola would like to come, as well.

10            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  The best would be tomorrow.

11            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.  We can stop.  We can stop here.  Thank

12    you.

13       Q.   Witness, who -- do you recognise the voices?

14       A.   Yes, I do.  Radovan Karadzic and Slobodan Milosevic.

15       Q.   From the contents of what you heard and what you have in front of

16    you, can you say at what time this conversation took place?

17       A.   At the beginning of July, before the 8th of July, in 1991.

18       Q.   How do you know that?

19       A.   Because they're referring to the -- to suspending of the decisions

20    of Croatia and Slovenia to secede for three months, and the involvement of

21    international mediators in the matter.

22       Q.   Mr. Milosevic is speaking, and we heard here that radical

23    changes -- to be correct here:  "I think that some things should be

24    radically changed now."  What was discussed -- what, if any, radical steps

25    were discussed at that time?  Do you know?

Page 13324

 1       A.   Actually, to force Croatia and Slovenia to leave Yugoslavia, and

 2    once they leave, what remains should be the new state, the new Yugoslavia

 3    that Slobodan Milosevic was making.

 4       Q.   Was this discussed at that time?

 5       A.   It was discussed, in various ways, yes, at that time.

 6       Q.   There is also the reference of Mr. Radovan Karadzic saying:

 7    "...the issue in connection with Serbian violence in Croatia ..." and he

 8    says:  "Is that the condition?"  What is -- was there a condition that the

 9    Serbian violence in Croatia has to stop; and if so, whose condition was

10    that?

11       A.   The European Community set the condition that hostilities should

12    cease and a political agreement be reached in three months' time on the

13    restructuring of Yugoslavia.

14       Q.   Mr. Milosevic then says:  "Everything is inside, any violence must

15    be stopped."  Did he take measures?  Did he take steps to stop the

16    violence in the -- in Croatia?

17       A.   No.

18       Q.   Did the violence continue, the violence from the Serbian side,

19    that is?

20       A.   Yes, provocations and armed attacks continued.

21            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Private session for one question, please,

22    Your Honour.

23 [Private session) [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

24            THE REGISTRAR:  We're in private session.

25            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Page 13325

 1       Q.   At the end of this conversation that we heard, Mr. Karadzic speaks

 2    about a necessary meeting, and he speaks of tomorrow, tomorrow it's

 3    necessary to sit.  And then he also says:  "...Milan from down there, and,

 4    if it is needed, Momir from down there, and, I don't know, sit for an hour

 5    or two."  Does he refer to you?  Did you actually have a meeting?  Or is

 6    he referring to another Milan, or wouldn't you know?

 7       A.   Probably me.

 8       Q.   Did you have a meeting?  Did you sit together?  And who would be

 9    the "Momir from down there"?

10       A.   No, I wasn't at the meeting at which Momir was, Momir, probably,

11    Bulatovic.  I was at a meeting later, that I have already described,

12    sometime in mid-July, which was also attended by Karadzic.

13       Q.   Is that the meeting where you referred to Mr. Karadzic speaking

14    about the Muslims to be driven into the valleys, or which -- can you give

15    us a hint which meeting?

16       A.   That was the meeting at which Karadzic said words to that effect.

17            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.  I think that should be enough for this

18    intercept.

19            The next intercept, I do not think we need to play.  It's tab 22,

20    and I would like --

21            JUDGE MAY:  Open session?

22            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.  Yes.  Sorry.

23                          [Open session]

24            THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session.

25            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  The next is tab 22, and I have marked a

Page 13326

 1    passage for the witness, and also a passage to be put on the ELMO.  It is

 2    tab 22.  It's on the first page.  And there is a passage in there --

 3       Q.   First of all, did you listen to a conversation between Radovan

 4    Karadzic and Mr. Milosevic where they speak about Wijnaendts' visit, a

 5    visit?

 6       A.   I did.

 7            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, we have to go into private

 8    session.  I just see that it cannot be discussed in the open.

 9 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

10            THE REGISTRAR:  We're in private session.

11            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

12       Q.   Witness, when you look at the text in front of you, it says here

13    Slobodan Milosevic says:  "Listen.  This Wijnaendts will visit that Milan

14    today."  Is that referring to you?  Did you expect to meet Mr. Wijnaendts?

15       A.   That's right.  That was Wijnaendts' second visit.

16            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  We can go back into open session.

17                          [Open session]

18            THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session.

19            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

20       Q.   And now I will quote Mr. Slobodan Milosevic, and he says:

21            "And he told me yesterday that when he had been in that place over

22    there, they had shown him that the effects had been particularly

23    disastrous where they had been attacked by some Serbs, and so on.  He saw

24    big craters.  I don't know ... from these shells, and so on.  I don't

25    believe they showed him everything that those Martic's forces had done,

Page 13327












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 13328

 1    but probably that they themselves had done and then made it seem as if it

 2    were that."

 3            Sir, in the beginning of this transcript, we see the name Gospic

 4    mentioned.  What had happened in Gospic that was shown to Mr. Wijnaendts

 5    and Mr. Milosevic is referring to?

 6       A.   There was fighting around Gospic between Serbian forces, which

 7    were attacking Gospic, intending to gain control over eastern Gospic, and

 8    forces of the Croatian government that were defending Gospic.

 9       Q.   Had Martic's forces done disastrous things?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   What?  Can you be more specific?

12       A.   Mortar fire was used.

13       Q.   Against civilian targets or just against the army?

14       A.   I didn't have precise insight into what was happening on the

15    ground, but as a rule, targets -- were targeted non-selectively.

16            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  And I would like to go now further in this

17    intercept and to the next marked page.  Your Honour, it's on page 3, on

18    the -- actually, on top of the page, and I would like to quote:

19            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  That, probably, wasn't done by Serbs, but by

20    this lot.  So, he should absolutely, independently of that conversation of

21    theirs for which he should, implying that he doesn't know of it, point out

22    the consequences in Gospic.

23            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  All right.  I'll ring him now.  I think that

24    he's not enough ... he is a bit inflexible.  He is not enough, er, enough

25    flexible and wise to do so.  Yes, he ... he has that minor flaw and he

Page 13329

 1    doesn't understand that you have to play the game when they set things up

 2    in that way.  This lot are great masters of that.

 3            JUDGE MAY:  We can't find this passage.

 4            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  It's on page 3, and it's on the ELMO.

 5            JUDGE KWON:  Page 2.

 6            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  It's page 2?

 7            JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 8            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I have a slightly older version of it.

 9            JUDGE MAY:  Yes, we have it now.

10            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.  It's on the ELMO also now, in the

11    middle, actually.  Yes.  Stop.  Stop.  It's right there.  And I was

12    reading -- and now it's Mr. Milosevic:  "That's why I'm telling you.  It

13    should be counterbalanced in a way, that ... his impression now that that

14    lot did something in Gospic, caused great destruction, and so on.  He

15    should also tell him, they did this and that over there."

16            I have to go for one question into private session related to this

17    sector.

18 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

19            THE REGISTRAR:  We're in private session.

20            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

21       Q.   Did you actually -- did Mr. Karadzic actually call you and

22    instruct you or had a conversation of what to say to Mr. Wijnaendts?

23       A.   I spoke to somebody.  I'm not quite sure that it was Karadzic, but

24    yes.

25       Q.   What were you told to do when you met Mr. Wijnaendts?

Page 13330

 1       A.   To show him what the Croats had done to the Serbs around Knin.

 2       Q.   Was that understood to be counterbalancing what the Serbs had done

 3    in Gospic?

 4       A.   Right, to establish some kind of a balanced picture of reciprocal

 5    destruction.

 6       Q.   Was that something that was usually done to stress the violence of

 7    the other side to make it look better what their own side did?  Was that a

 8    typical behaviour during international negotiations or meetings?

 9       A.   Yes, it was typical.  One would highlight the effects of the other

10    side, exaggerate what they had done.

11       Q.   Witness, going now a little bit further down in the text, there is

12    a reference of -- or rather, a question that Mr. Radovan Karadzic has in

13    relation to Kostajnica, and he asks Mr. Milosevic:  "Yes, yes.  All

14    right.  Tell me, has Kostajnica been taken, I heard, hasn't it?"  And the

15    answer is:  "Well, I don't have precise information."

16            Do you have that?

17            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honours, we can go into open session.  I

18    forgot.

19                          [Open session]

20            THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session.

21            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

22       Q.   So Mr. Milosevic -- Mr. Karadzic asked what -- in reference to

23    Kostajnica, what had happened in Kostajnica at that point in time?  And we

24    are talking about September 1991.

25       A.   There was fighting between the forces of the Yugoslav People's

Page 13331

 1    Army and the Serbian forces that were endeavouring to capture Kostajnica,

 2    that was being held by the forces of the government of Croatia.

 3       Q.   And a little bit further down in the text, Mr. Karadzic asks:

 4            RADOVAN KARADZIC: Okucani hasn't been taken, has it?"

 5            And Mr. Milosevic answers:

 6            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  The results were good up there.  Very good

 7    results up there, very good.  We'll talk later, we can't now over the

 8    phone.  There were all kinds of things there.

 9            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  I'm afraid that, that ... the army has

10    retreated over there, and I'm afraid that they'll fail to keep Okucani.

11            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  Well, I'll see what the situation is like.

12            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  It mustn't happen.  I think that Joca has

13    assessed it properly.  That's the spine!  That's the spine!  When you

14    control that, you control the road to Pakrac and everything.

15            What had happened at that time, if anything, in Okucani?

16       A.   There was fighting around Okucani.

17       Q.   And this Joca mentioned here, who is that?  Do you know that?

18       A.   Stanisic.

19       Q.   Was this a nickname he was referred to?

20       A.   Yes.  It was a name of endearment for close associates.

21       Q.   And I would like to go down now to actually the last page.  That's

22    page 5 in the English, and I assume it's also in the Serbian, the last

23    page.  And there is another reference to Jovica, and it says here Radovan

24    Karadzic says:

25            "Okay, if you can.  This Aca was brilliant in all of this, but

Page 13332

 1    it's necessary now just to -- I think that Jovica has assessed it

 2    wonderfully.  We mustn't ... because then they can bargain more easily and

 3    in a different way.  We must hold that road to Pakrac and all of that."

 4            First of all, who is Aca who was brilliant?

 5       A.   Aca Vasiljevic.

 6       Q.   How do you know that?  What did he do in relation to Okucani?

 7       A.   I don't know exactly, but he was the head of military security.

 8    He was mentioned also in the events surrounding Martic.

 9       Q.   And here this reference to Jovica?

10       A.   Those are two men who had information about combat activities.

11    They were heads of services that were involved.

12       Q.   What was the importance of the road to Pakrac, if anything?  Do

13    you know?

14       A.   Yes.  It was important for the Serbs because it linked the

15    territory of Western Slavonia with Serb territories in Bosnia and

16    Yugoslavia, or Serbia, rather.

17       Q.   Thank you.  We can now turn to the next intercept, and it's tab

18    22.  And I also do not intend --

19            JUDGE MAY:  We just dealt with 22.

20            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Oh, sorry.  21.  21.  Tab 21.  And I again do

21    not intend to have it played but just discuss one section with the

22    witness.  And the section I would like to discuss is on page 10, starting

23    on page 10, the last line, and it's going over into page 11.

24       Q.   Witness, first of all, did you -- looking at this transcript, did

25    you have -- did you listen in to a conversation between Slobodan Milosevic

Page 13333

 1    and Radovan Karadzic --

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   -- on the 9th of August, 1991?  And I quote now from page 10:

 4            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  No one fights on the borders of Croatia.

 5            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Yes.

 6            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  To the contrary...

 7            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Inside.

 8            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  There, inside Croatia, on the edges of the

 9    Serbian territories.

10            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Yes, yes.  Are ... are ... the positions such

11    that this would be suitable if it was done, right?

12            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  I think they almost are.

13            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Almost?  A little bit up there, Petrinja and

14    Sisak?

15            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  Almost like there, there is no, nothing else,

16    no ... any greater difference.

17            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Yes, yes.  They should put it naturally, the

18    sooner the better.  If Europe is in a hurry to finish the things, there

19    you go.  Let them finish the things.

20            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  Yes, yes.  So, let us start slowly, brother,

21    working, and later on we go for a summer holiday, right?

22            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

23       Q.   Witness, at what time was this conversation made, and what was

24    ongoing at that time on the international level?  Do you know?

25       A.   At the beginning of August 1991, the European Community had

Page 13334

 1    initiated negotiations on a political settlement for Yugoslavia.  So this

 2    was a follow-up of the activities of the European Community of July 1991.

 3    It was a follow-up to those activities.

 4       Q.   And there is this reference to fighting inside, on the edges of

 5    the Serbian territories, and there's also the remark -- the question of

 6    Radovan Karadzic in relation to Petrinja and Sisak.  What was happening

 7    there at that time?

 8       A.   There was fighting around Petrinja and Sisak.

 9       Q.   Between whom?

10       A.   On the one side, the JNA garrison from Petrinja and Serb volunteer

11    units; and on the other, the forces of the government of Croatia.

12       Q.   Thank you.

13            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  We are now going to tab 39, and that's

14    actually an intercept that will be played partly.  And in relation

15    to -- oh, sorry.  Sorry.  I think we have already played this one.

16            JUDGE KWON:  I don't think so.

17            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  No, we haven't.  Sorry.  39.  And we will

18    play -- in the English translation it will be page 3, starting right in

19    the middle, with the name "Zulfikar was there..."  And we will play it

20    until page 5, the first -- the fourth line from the top, ending with:

21    "Yes, yes.  Fine.  He is here in 'Intercontinental.'"  That's the part

22    that we are going to play.  And for the technical booth, it's track 5.

23                          [Intercept played]

24            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  Zulfikar was here, he said he would put it on

25    Television Sarajevo, if they would want to broadcast his show, this Kadic

Page 13335

 1    was stating that volunteers from Bosnia were raping the Muslim women,

 2    setting the houses on fire, et cetera, they said all that on TV, and he

 3    said they wanted to start a war in BiH.

 4            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  It is over, he started the war, here, I have

 5    them here, in front of me, the faxes that Doko sent, by his authorisation,

 6    they are transferring all the conscripts that had not been deployed to the

 7    reserve forces of the police, actually, who would know if they were

 8    deployed or not, since they did not give the records to the army.  They

 9    are, they are making, today, on 23 September, they started making a state

10    army.

11            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  Yes, yes.

12            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  And I informed the Main Staff about it, Acic

13    was not there, but I told it to the duty officer, we now have to, I don't

14    know whether to advise our people to respond or not to respond.

15            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  To respond, by all means, by all means,

16    because they will clash with the army.

17            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Yes.

18            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  And then you will have the army on one side

19    and those on others on the other.

20            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Yes.

21            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  Respond, by all means, as there is nobody but

22    the army.

23            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  No, no.  To respond to the police reserve

24    forces, that is what I'm asking you.

25            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  Who?  Ours?

Page 13336

 1            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Yes.

 2            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  No way, brother.

 3            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Well, no, but if they respond, they will get

 4    the weapons, to, and they will not be able to...

 5            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  I know, but they have to respond to the army

 6    and, and...

 7            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Fine.  They're responding to the army.  The

 8    response here is not that bad.

 9            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  Well, I know, but look what they're doing.

10    There are all kinds of instigators here, and did you see what Martic said

11    yesterday, here, for Draskovic?

12            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Yes.  I saw, he let us know.

13            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  It should also come from people, similarly.

14    Here, SPS?  He did say something, not about Draskovic, but about this...

15            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  We had it the other day also.  I read it to

16    you.  I see they corrected it slightly in politics, but fine.  It is...

17            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  Fine.  But, do it again today, this

18    regarding ... in the line of what Martic said, and to absolutely support

19    the army.

20            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Right.  Did you ... did you see what Biljana

21    and Nikola did?

22            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  I haven't seen it yet.

23            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Well, it was sent to Mira.  Please, let them,

24    let them...

25            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  It has been up to now, BBC was, then ... this

Page 13337

 1    Adil came by to say, to say a few words...

 2            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Can Aco do that for him, no?

 3            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  Well, I hope he can.  Here, we will see now.

 4    Is this dossier related to him?

 5            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Yes.  To him there.

 6            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  To Aliju?

 7            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  No, not to Sabic.

 8            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  To Sabic.  Yes.

 9            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Yes.

10            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  Yes, yes.  I hope it is possible, I...

11            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Let them, let the two of them make ... let Aco

12    immediately make contact with him directly.  It will be for the best.

13            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  Yes, yes, fine.  He is here in the

14    "Intercontinental."  Then we will see.

15            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.  Thank you.

16       Q.   Witness, which -- do you recognise the voices?

17       A.   Yes.  Slobodan Milosevic and Radovan Karadzic.

18       Q.   Can you say when -- from the contents of this conversation, can

19    you say when it took place?

20       A.   It took place when the mobilisation was stepped up in Serbia, when

21    the opposition protested and when Vuk Draskovic was criticised, saying

22    that he was opposed to the mobilisation.

23       Q.   And when was that?  When did that take place?

24       A.   In September 1991.

25       Q.   There is a reference made to Martic, that he actually -- what --

Page 13338












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13   English transcripts.













Page 13339

 1    that he said something about Draskovic.  Do you recall whether Martic at

 2    that time made speeches against Vuk Draskovic?

 3       A.   Yes.  Yes, he did make statements.

 4       Q.   What did he say?

 5       A.   I don't know exactly, but generally speaking, he criticised him.

 6       Q.   Mr. Milosevic and Mr. Karadzic speak about mobilisation of Bosnian

 7    forces.  Are you aware that at that time also mobilisation took place in

 8    Bosnia in September 1991?  Do you know anything about that?

 9       A.   Yes, I do, for the area of Bosanska Krajina.

10       Q.   Yes.  What do you know?

11       A.   That people were mobilised into the Banja Luka Corps of the JNA.

12       Q.   Why is it important to -- that the people get mobilised into the

13    army and not the reserve police?  Can you explain that?

14       A.   The army was under the authority of Belgrade, or rather, Slobodan

15    Milosevic, and the Yugoslav state presidency, and the police force was

16    under the authority in Bosnia-Herzegovina of Alija Izetbegovic.

17       Q.   And there is also mentioning again of Aco, twice, actually.  Who

18    is that?

19       A.   Aco Vasiljevic.  That's the only Aco I know.

20       Q.   A little bit further down from the text that we actually heard,

21    there is a mentioning on that same page, actually, there is mentioned

22    Dubica.  Mr. Karadzic says -- it's on page 5, Your Honours, on the

23    second-last line:  "Yes, yes.  I instructed them in Krajina to see that.

24    It is something in Dubica, some partisan follies.  They are now fiddling

25    about the five pointed star about foolish things that Dubica was a

Page 13340

 1    partisan town now it will not be partisan."

 2            What Dubica is he talking about?

 3       A.   Bosanska Dubica.

 4       Q.   Yes.  Thank you.  That finishes this tab, and now we go to tab 31,

 5    and it is also a conversation that we have to play.

 6            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  And, Your Honours, for your orientation, we

 7    play from page 2, bottom line, when actually two people are starting to

 8    speak while others were ahead of that, and we play it until the very end.

 9            And for the technical booth, it's track 7.

10                          [Intercept played]

11            THE INTERPRETER:  [Voiceover]

12            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Hello.

13            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  Radovan.

14            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Yes.

15            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  I spoke to the highest place.

16            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Right.

17            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  Please, you need to understand this, because

18    as they, I don't have ... I cannot explain everything.

19            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  All right.

20            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  It's of strategic importance for the future

21    RAM, you know what RAM is?

22            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Yes, I know, I know everything.

23            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  That the Banja Luka group is ready and

24    mobile.

25            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  All right.

Page 13341

 1            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  There is why you must first make sure that it

 2    is able and mobile and that it has no problems.  And secondly, all in one

 3    hour call Uzelac and invite him to an agreement at the highest level.

 4            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  All right.

 5            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  All the additional people that you can

 6    provide.

 7            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Yes.

 8            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  That they need to stay and keep their houses

 9    and the territory and block those centres of the HDZ, et cetera.  They

10    should be armed.  They should be provided with everything.  We shall fly

11    the helicopters in and all that ...

12            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Excellent.  I also ask you to...

13            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  Accordingly, I ask you to personally regulate

14    one and two.  And this other matter, Kupres, is very important.

15            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Right.

16            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  And the third I told you, the rally, it is

17    very important because of the international community.

18            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Yes, that's under way.  But tell me, can we

19    arrange the same thing, that they give me back the armament of the TO in

20    Sipovo and Mrkonjic.

21            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  That's a small matter.

22            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  All right.  Let them arm them there.  Here

23    I ... we've got 170 ready in Mrkonjic and 150 in Sipovo and they are ready

24    to go to Kupres.

25            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  Is Uzelac also in charge of that?

Page 13342

 1            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  No, no, this, er, I think that it is him

 2    himself yes, yes.

 3            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  Tell him that, brother, no problems.

 4            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  All right.

 5            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  We cannot discuss every small detail.

 6            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  All right, all right these 150 and 170 shall go

 7    to Kupres, and there we've got 750 people...

 8            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  Yes.  It is also important for us that this

 9    battalion, which was mobilised by the army, is in Kupres and that

10    everything be as it should be.

11            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  It will be, but if they receive this.  Those

12    who stay under their command, because Kupres is terribly ... that's 50-50

13    and the Serbs suffered horribly there during the war.

14            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  Let me tell you something.  Even this crazy

15    Seselj fucked the opposition yesterday.

16            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  I saw.  I heard.

17            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  You know what he told them?  He said, "Did

18    you decide to attack the JNA now when the JNA needs to defend the Serb

19    people?"

20            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Yes, yes that's...

21            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  That says the one with the tie of a

22    Zimmerman's waiter.

23            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Yes, yes.

24            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  Fucking hell.

25            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Yes, yes.

Page 13343

 1            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  It's even clear to him...

 2            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Clear, clear, certainly.

 3            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  And it's not clear to these traitors.

 4            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  I saw it, I saw.

 5            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  Yesterday in direct contact with Mesic.

 6            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Have you got a number for Uzelac by any

 7    chance?

 8            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  I don't but you shall find it.

 9            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Yes, yes.

10            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  Let them find it for you.  And please tell

11    him that I wish to secure a maximum political support...

12            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Is he going to accept more of our boys if he

13    needs them or just the ones that already...

14            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  He will receive them if needed.  But you give

15    him as many as you judge necessary should stay there.  Everything shall be

16    transported for them in the helicopters so they've got everything, so that

17    they stay and guard.

18            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  All right, agreed.

19            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  Accordingly you've got everything.

20            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Agreed.

21            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  But now it is to be or not to be concerning

22    Krajina because they wish to cut off Krajina.

23            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Yes, yes.

24            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  They don't want to go to Knin because many

25    would get killed, but they do want to come from behind.

Page 13344

 1            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Yes, yes now we shall...

 2            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC: the JNA, that shan't stop them there.

 3    How is it going to stop them with the armour alone if there is no

 4    brigade?

 5            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  All right, agreed.  Everything will be all

 6    right.

 7            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  What I mean now is, as they say, war and this

 8    is one of the sides.

 9            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  There are no problems whatsoever.

10            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  Please take care of it.

11            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Only if the numbers work, I think it shall be

12    completed.

13            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  You've got everything?  Everything must work.

14            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  I will, I will.  All right.  Talk to you, do

15    call again.

16            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

17       Q.   Witness, did you recognise the voices of the two persons

18    speaking?

19       A.   Yes.  Slobodan Milosevic and Radovan Karadzic were the people

20    having a conversation.

21       Q.   And they are speaking about a person, Uzelac.  Who is that?

22       A.   General Nikola Uzelac, Commander of the Banja Luka Corps.  Nikola

23    Uzelac, the big one.

24       Q.   From the contents, could you say when this conversation took place

25    and what was actually happening on the ground at that time?

Page 13345

 1       A.   Well, in the middle of the war in 1991.  The month was July,

 2    before the beginning of August, that is.

 3       Q.   What was happening at that time on the ground involving Uzelac,

 4    Knin, Krajina?  Can you explain what the two men are talking about?

 5       A.   About collecting people together to form the Banja Luka Corps.

 6       Q.   And how do you know that?  What did you observe yourself at that

 7    time?

 8       A.   Well, I was present at a meeting between Karadzic and Uzelac.

 9            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we go into private session briefly?

10 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

11            THE REGISTRAR:  Private session.

12            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

13       Q.   What kind of a meeting was that?  Where did you meet?  Who did you

14    meet, and what was discussed?

15       A.   It was in July 1991.  I can't remember the exact day.  Karadzic

16    asked me to come to Banja Luka, to the Bosna Hotel, which is where a large

17    group of people had already gathered.  They were activists from the SDS

18    from Bosanska Krajina.  And from there we went on to -- I don't know if it

19    was the command of the Banja Luka Corps or what.  I think it was the

20    headquarters, the command of the Banja Luka Corps - a new building at any

21    rate - to attend a meeting with Nikola Uzelac, Uzelac, head of staff of

22    the Banja Luka Corps.  And this was a socio-political meeting, if I can

23    call it that.

24       Q.   And on that meeting, was the mobilisation of people into the Banja

25    Luka Corps discussed?

Page 13346

 1       A.   Support for the corps was discussed.

 2       Q.   And was that actually -- was it -- were you successful recruiting

 3    people for the Banja Luka Corps?

 4       A.   As far as I know, this was done on the territory of Bosanska

 5    Krajina, and the process was an ongoing one.  First of all, with

 6    volunteers.  So people started off by going on a voluntary basis, as

 7    volunteers, and then later on there were reinforcements.  This is what

 8    people from the area told me.

 9       Q.   Witness, Mr. Milosevic makes a reference in this conversation that

10    we heard to the future RAM.  Do you know what that is?  What is RAM?

11       A.   I hadn't heard of RAM.

12            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  We can go into open session again.

13                          [Open session]

14            THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session.

15            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  The next tab, the intercept is number 40, and

16    it is -- I do not intend to have that played, just I have highlighted a

17    few sections, and the first highlighted section is on page 7 of the

18    English, and it's actually on the bottom of the page and also on the -- it

19    goes over into the following page on top.  Can we have it on the ELMO?

20       Q.   And, Witness, it's actually the first marked part in your Serbian

21    script.

22            Mr. Karadzic says:

23            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Uh-huh, this Minister over here and the deputy

24    of ours were at the General Staff.  Some kind of agreement was made for

25    the police ... for MUP and army to maintain the order down there in the

Page 13347

 1    Neretva valley.  And reserves should be situated in Bileca and in Trebinje

 2    at the barracks.  I think that's not a bad idea?

 3            And Mr. Milosevic:

 4            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  Well, it's not, especially for Trebinje and

 5    Bileca as well.

 6            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Yeah, it's all close to Neretva, and people

 7    will be safer.  They will be at the barracks.  That's a different thing,

 8    you know.

 9            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  That is OK, but up there is very important.

10    Krajina, that's very important.

11            Witness, first of all, did you listen to this conversation during

12    your talks with the Prosecutor here in The Hague, and, if so, did you

13    recognise who was speaking?

14       A.   Yes, I did.  I listened to it.  It was a conversation between

15    Karadzic and Milosevic.

16       Q.   And what I just quoted to you, what -- what is the -- what is the

17    background of this conversation about Bileca, Trebinje, the Neretva

18    valley, and Krajina?

19       A.   In the context of mobilisation and putting up the reservists from

20    Serbia in the area.

21       Q.   Can you be a little bit more precise?  What was going on at that

22    time?  And can you tell us, first of all, at what time did this

23    conversation take place?

24       A.   In September 1991.  That's when the conversation probably took

25    place, which was the period when there was a mass mobilisation in Serbia,

Page 13348

 1    and the reservists who had been mobilised, the units, were sent towards

 2    Krajina via Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 3       Q.   The Neretva valley, is that an important strategic valley for --

 4    in relation to the Krajina?

 5       A.   No.  No.  Not in relation to Krajina but in relation to Dubrovnik

 6    and a confrontation there.  That is where Serbian and Croatian territories

 7    meet in Bosnia-Herzegovina, as Karadzic explained.

 8       Q.   We can now go to the next highlighted section.  And the reference

 9    for Your Honours, it's on page 10.  It starts actually in the middle, in

10    the middle of this page with Mr. Milosevic saying, "Be careful..." and it

11    ends actually on the next page.

12            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  Be careful, can you secure the normal passage

13    of units through Bosnia with this part, this one from Serbia?  Towards,

14    towards, for example, Krajina?

15            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Towards Krajina?

16            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  Yes.

17            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Well, I think we will be able to do it.

18            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  Come, concentrate on this question, because

19    the answer to this question is very important to me.

20            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  I think we will be able, I mean, on the Doboj

21    line, and then there.

22            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  Well, check that, and then we will see.

23    Because I see that these, these have problems, these people to, to...

24            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  To have them transferred?

25            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  To have them transferred, even to have

Page 13349












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13   English transcripts.













Page 13350

 1    medicine, food transferred.

 2            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Yes, yes.

 3            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  All that needs help there, those people

 4    there.

 5            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  I think we can ensure that, there will be no

 6    problems.

 7            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  Yes, that is...

 8            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Because we will secure one of the lines and I

 9    will notify, I mean.

10            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  Good, notify.  But notify in a safe way.

11            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Yes, yes.

12            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  Right.

13            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Good, just so we know in advance, so.

14    Torbavica informed me yesterday night at 12.00 that he will be setting off

15    at 04.00 and then I, we secure the first convoy, and then four got lost.

16            Do you know about convoys through -- from Serbia through Bosnia to

17    the Krajina?  Do you know of such convoys?

18       A.   They were brigades, JNA brigades.

19       Q.   From where did they come and where did they go at that time?

20       A.   The brigades were coming from, as far as I know, Vojvodina

21    province, Sabac, Loznica, and other areas.

22       Q.   And where were they going?

23       A.   As far as I know, some of those units were deployed in Banija and

24    Kordun, Lika, and some of the others elsewhere.

25       Q.   And how do you know about these matters?

Page 13351

 1       A.   I had an insight from the field, on the ground.

 2       Q.   And there is also a person mentioned, Torbavica.  Do you know who

 3    that is?  That was actually in the last part that I read.  Do you know who

 4    that is?

 5       A.   In this context, it could have been General Torbavica.

 6       Q.   General of what units and what position?  Do you know?

 7       A.   A JNA General.  I think he was commander of the Uzice Corps or,

 8    rather, some units which were in the region.

 9            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you.  We can now turn to the next tab,

10    and it's also one I do not want to play.  It's tab 15.  And I have

11    highlighted a few passages for the witness and to be put on the ELMO.

12    And, Your Honours, it starts on page 3 of the English text, in the middle

13    of the text after the references to Wijnaendts.  After the references to

14    Wijnaendts, Radovan Karadzic says:

15            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  OK, what can be done here?  Could Jovica do

16    something about this?

17            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  No, he cannot do anything.

18            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Because, there he has those other, he, he,

19    there, there he has a strong opposition among those smarter people.

20            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  To tell you the truth, I don't know what to

21    do ... what, what is worth talking with them and I don't -- in what

22    capacity can I support them when they are refusing to participate in the

23    talks anyway?

24            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Yes, unbelievable.  You know what would be

25    good?  It would be good if Jovica would invite ten or so, that ten or so,

Page 13352

 1    to go there, smart people.  I could also come to the meeting, and some

 2    things could be determined.  They cannot do so, can they?

 3            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  Absolutely!

 4            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  There can't be, there can't be an opposition to

 5    force him.  Not the one to relieve him from the office, but to force him.

 6            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Private session, please.

 7 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

 8            THE REGISTRAR:  We're in private session.

 9            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

10       Q.   Witness, about whom are they talking?  Do you know?

11       A.   About me.

12       Q.   What was going on at that time?  You have already spoken about

13    international meetings.  What were they criticising, and why were they

14    talking even of "relieve him from his office"?

15       A.   It started with the work of the conference on Yugoslavia in The

16    Hague, and to attend the conference the republics, representatives of the

17    republics, were invited to participate on a footing of equality.  I was

18    offered, myself, as a representative of the people in Krajina, to take

19    part in the conference, in the subcommittee for minorities, and I insisted

20    that we be, that is to say the representatives of Krajina, be equitable

21    participants in the conference.  And it was via Misa Milosevic in Geneva

22    that we presented our views vis-a-vis the conference.  We stated our

23    positions.  And Milosevic was opposed to that.

24       Q.   And did -- did actually Jovica try to influence the situation in

25    the Krajina?  Did he try to contact you?  Did he even try to dismiss you,

Page 13353

 1    or, rather, have you dismissed?

 2       A.   Through the Assembly organisation and a campaign saying that I was

 3    a traitor, and I've already spoken about that.  With respect to a meeting

 4    at President Milosevic's office which was a preparatory meeting prior to

 5    our departure for The Hague and Paris.

 6       Q.   Yes.  Thank you.

 7            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  We can go back into open session.

 8                          [Open session]

 9            THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session.

10            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

11       Q.   And I forgot to ask you, did you listen to the entire tape while

12    you had your conversations with --

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   -- the Prosecutor, and did you recognise the voices of

15    Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Milosevic?

16       A.   Yes, I did listen to the entire tape, and yes, I did recognise

17    their voices.

18       Q.   And at around what time did this conversation take place?

19       A.   It means it was conducted around the 8th of October, 1991.

20            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I would like to turn now to tab 42, and it's

21    also nothing to be played, and I have highlighted for the witness actually

22    two parts.  I'm just told that it's not highlighted, but it's easy to

23    find.

24            For Your Honours, on the first page, on the first page, on the

25    bottom, the last few sentences.

Page 13354

 1       Q.   And, Witness, it should also be on your first page.  There is a

 2    reference, when you put the first page on the ELMO, the translation, yes.

 3    Mr. Milosevic -- first of all, I have to ask you.  Did you listen to this

 4    tape and did you recognise the voices?

 5       A.   Yes, I did.

 6       Q.   And I quote first from the first page.

 7            MR. MILOSEVIC:  Well, it seems so.  You know, he wants complete

 8    serenity and independence like Macedonia, fuck it.

 9            And Radovan says.

10            RADOVAN KARADZIC:  Well, that's unbelievable.  How will those

11    people over there answer him?  There's a large meeting of Montenegrins at

12    the Sava Centre tomorrow.

13            Witness, seeing this quote, what -- what kind of a meeting was at

14    the Sava Centre?  Do you know that, and who wanted complete sovereignty

15    they are talking about here?

16       A.   It was about criticism of Momir Bulatovic and the campaign which

17    Milosevic launched against him for him to change his position with respect

18    to The Hague conference and the acceptance of Carrington's plan for

19    Yugoslavia.

20       Q.   How do you know that Mr. Milosevic launched a campaign to change

21    Mr. Bulatovic's position?  How do you know that?

22       A.   I heard this personally from Milosevic.  I heard this personally

23    from Milosevic.

24       Q.   Is that the occasion that you already talked about when he was

25    complaining about Mr. Bulatovic?

Page 13355

 1       A.   That's right.  On the 20th of October, 1991.

 2       Q.   What did he actually say --

 3            JUDGE MAY:  Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

 4            MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that what

 5    must be borne in mind is that something that is not contained in these

 6    conversations cannot be interpreted.  If the names that the witness is

 7    mentioning are not in here, he cannot mention them.  He cannot interpret

 8    them in the context of what it says here.  I think that would be right.

 9    He recognised the voices, but he cannot interpret something about which we

10    do have enough information here.  Especially, he should not mention names

11    that do not exist in this text.

12            JUDGE MAY:  He says they do.  I wonder really whether it takes us

13    very much further.  We have heard evidence about this.

14            Do you want to refer to any other passages?

15            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, Your Honour.  And actually, the witness

16    had mentioned in relation to the Sava Centre a Montenegrin gathering.  He

17    concluded that the person talked about is -- but, yes, I would like to --

18    just one more quote here, and it's -- in the English text it's page 5, and

19    it's --

20            JUDGE KWON:  I think we've heard it already, page 5.

21            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.

22            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.

23            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.  I have it marked.

24            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Okay.  Thank you.  I wasn't aware that I had

25    already discussed this one.  Thank you very much.

Page 13356

 1            The next tab -- the next one is tab 44, and it's also not to be

 2    played.  I just would like to have the witness have a look at it.

 3       Q.   And on the first page, Mr. Milosevic -- first of all, did you

 4    listen to this tape during your conversation, and did you recognise the

 5    voices?

 6       A.   Yes, I did.  I recognised the voices of Karadzic and Milosevic.

 7       Q.   We -- on the first page there is marked -- there are marked

 8    actually three different parts:

 9            SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC:  The maps were shown to me yesterday.  The

10    whole Eastern Slavonia was placed on them; Western Slavonia was partly

11    presented on them, just like an island that will be authorised by UN.

12    After that Krajina without Knin, without Knin, without Obrovac, Benkovac,

13    Donji Lapac...

14            Seeing this quote, do you know at what time this conversation took

15    place and to which maps Mr. Milosevic is referring to?  What maps were

16    discussed at that time?

17       A.   The discussion was on the 21st of November, 1991, and then it went

18    on.  It was the end of November.  And this was regarding the maps of the

19    Vance-Owen Plan.

20            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.  And I think the rest of the text speaks

21    for itself, and we would not need to discuss it.  The highlighted parts

22    also speak for themselves.  The witness has already described what was

23    discussed with whom at that time.

24            The next tab is 45.

25       Q.   Witness, did you listen in to this tape?

Page 13357

 1            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  And we have to go into private session for

 2    this one.

 3 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

 4            THE REGISTRAR:  We're in private session.

 5            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

 6       Q.   Did you actually hear several tapes during which Radovan Karadzic

 7    and Mr. Milosevic criticise your position in relation to the international

 8    negotiations, be it the Carrington Plan or the Vance Plan, and is this one

 9    of them?

10       A.   Yes.  And this conversation is one of them.

11            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I don't think we need to discuss it any

12    further, because the witness has described the matter already enough.  And

13    this needs to be under seal, Your Honour.

14            The last intercept in this context is tab 50, and I have actually

15    marked two parts of it.  The first part --

16            JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry, Mrs. Uertz-Retzlaff.  The reason the

17    tab 45 should be under seal is that -- because there's mention of this

18    witness.  Am I right?

19            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, Your Honour.

20            JUDGE KWON:  Then how about tab 44?  Some previous passage you

21    read, there's also mention of this witness.

22            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I think now that I consider it, we do not

23    need to have this under seal because nobody would know -- could detect

24    from the document as such who the witness is.  So nobody could detect

25    anything.  So we wouldn't need -- we wouldn't need to redact any names or

Page 13358

 1    have all these things where names are mentioned under seal.

 2            JUDGE KWON:  Okay.

 3            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  And tab 50, I have marked one passage on

 4    page 5 in the English version, and in the middle of the page.

 5       Q.   Witness --

 6            JUDGE KWON:  Do we have to be in closed session?

 7            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  No, Your Honour, we don't.

 8                          [Open session]

 9            THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session.

10            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

11       Q.   Witness, tab 50, the first marked section.  First of all, did you

12    listen in to this conversation?

13       A.   Yes, I did.

14       Q.   And did you recognise the voices?

15       A.   Yes, I did.  Karadzic and Dobrica Cosic.

16       Q.   On -- in this marked passage, Mr. Karadzic refers to ecological

17    data and cartographers "...have produced the fairest variant in which we

18    have sixty-one point three per cent of the land."  And then they discuss

19    these figures further.  Did Mr. Karadzic make those kind of arguments when

20    discussing about the land that should be under Serb control?  Did he make

21    these kind of arguments?

22       A.   I know about talks with the representatives of Franjo Tudjman and

23    the Croatian government, that is to say between them and Karadzic and the

24    representatives of the authorities of Republika Srpska.  I also know of a

25    conversation I already mentioned at Slobodan Milosevic's in this context.

Page 13359

 1       Q.   Yes.  And the next passage I have marked is on page 12.  It's the

 2    top of page 12.  Mr. Cosic and Mr. Karadzic speak about a removal of a

 3    person, and they speak about tomorrow.

 4            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honours, we have to go into private

 5    session for this.

 6 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

 7            THE REGISTRAR:  We're in private session.

 8            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

 9       Q.   In this passage, are they speaking about your removal from your

10    position?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   Do you know when this conversation -- can you place it in time?

13    Because it says here:

14            "DC:  Yes, if they remove him tomorrow that will mean

15    something..."

16            Do you know when this conversation took place from this context?

17       A.   Yes.  A day before the 16th of February, 1992.

18            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  That should be enough, and we can go back

19    into open session.

20                          [Open session]

21            THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session.

22            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, the next series of intercepts I

23    do not want to discuss or play with the witness in detail.  I just want to

24    ask him some general questions about intercepts that he heard in a certain

25    context and only speak about a very few voices that are heard on these

Page 13360












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Page 13361

 1    intercepts and how he is familiar with these voices, because he had

 2    actually made this declaration reference to all of these intercepts and

 3    explained in this declaration whom he recognised, and I would just find

 4    out in relation to several of those intercepts mentioned in the

 5    declaration how he knows the voices.

 6            JUDGE MAY:  Well, that would be a suitable matter to deal with

 7    after the adjournment.

 8            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you.

 9            JUDGE MAY:  We're on page 64, I take it, paragraph 319; is that

10    right?  You can tell us afterwards.

11            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.

12            JUDGE MAY:  We will adjourn now.  Twenty minutes.

13                          --- Recess taken at 12.14 p.m.

14                          --- On resuming at 12.37 p.m.

15            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.

16            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  With the help of the usher, I would like to

17    put to the witness only briefly the transcripts of the intercepted

18    conversations 23, 25, and tab 2.

19       Q.   The first one is an intercepted conversation between Karadzic and

20    Grahovac of the 24th of June, 1991, Witness.  And the second one is a

21    conversation between Karadzic and Vukic from that same day, and the third

22    one is a conversation between Karadzic and Mr. Milosevic of the 9th of

23    July, 1991.

24            Did you have opportunity to listen in to these three

25    conversations?

Page 13362

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   In relation to --

 3            JUDGE MAY:  Yes?

 4            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Tab 2?  I have under tab 2 a

 5    conversation with Karadzic; tab 3, Karadzic, Cosic.  I don't know what the

 6    point is.

 7            JUDGE MAY:  Let's deal with tab 2, Karadzic and Cosic.  Tab 23.

 8    Was that the next one you had, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

 9            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I had tab 23, tab 25, and

10    tab 2.

11            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.  And tab 2 is an intercept between Karadzic and

12    Mr. Milosevic, dated the 9th of July, 1991.

13            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.  I have that.

14            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.

15            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.  Yes, let's go on.

16            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

17       Q.   The voice of -- how familiar are you with the voice of

18    Mr. Grahovac?  Do you know his voice and how?

19       A.   Yes.  We talked often.

20       Q.   And this other person, Vukic, would you know who that is?  The

21    conversation Karadzic, Vukic.

22       A.   Dr. Vukic from Banja Luka, president of the Municipal Board of the

23    SDS in Banja Luka.

24       Q.   Are you familiar with his voice?

25       A.   I'm not sure.  I'm not sure about his voice.

Page 13363

 1            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Private session for one question, Your

 2    Honour.

 3 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

 4            THE REGISTRAR:  We're in private session.

 5            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

 6       Q.   In these three conversations that these people had, did they

 7    criticise you for your step in relation to the unification of the two

 8    Krajinas?  Is that part of these three conversations?

 9       A.   Yes, but not everybody criticised me.  Milosevic and Karadzic.

10       Q.   Yes.  But the contents -- the contents of these three

11    conversations, do they refer to your actions in relation to the

12    unification of the Krajinas?

13       A.   Yes, that's right.

14            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  We can go back into open session, Your

15    Honour.

16                          [Open session]

17            THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session.

18            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

19       Q.   The other day, you also mentioned that despite the criticism

20    against the unification of the two Krajinas, later on the -- Mr. Karadzic

21    himself pursued that same aim, and in relation to that, I would like to

22    put to the witness the exhibit -- tab 107 of Exhibit 352, and it's just

23    for you to have a look at it and whether you can authenticate this

24    document.  It's the "Prijedor declaration on the Unification of the RSK

25    and the RS," of the 31st of October, 1992.

Page 13364

 1       A.   That's right.

 2       Q.   Yes.  Thank you.  And I would like to move now on with the

 3    intercepts.

 4            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  And for your orientation, Your Honour, the

 5    three intercepts we just mentioned in relation to the unification and this

 6    issue was paragraph 163 of the proofing summary, and we are now back on

 7    319, where a lot of intercepts are actually listed.

 8       Q.   In relation to the intercepts listed under this paragraph, I would

 9    like to put to the witness just briefly the intercepts tab 4 and tab 5.

10            Witness, these two intercepts are of -- are of unclear date.  It's

11    not given.  But in both of these intercepts, reference is made to a

12    referendum in Bosnia.  Can you tell us from their contents on what -- at

13    what time these conversations may have taken place giving these contents?

14       A.   Beginning of November.  The end of October -- no.  November more

15    probably, 1991, after the referendum was held when part of the MPs of the

16    Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina, those who were of Serb ethnicity, and the

17    SDS, when they conducted this referendum in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

18       Q.   Yes.  Thank you.  I do not want to put the other exhibits to the

19    witness except for these -- where I mentioned we haven't yet spoken about

20    the names -- the voices of these people.

21            Did you listen in to an intercept between Karadzic and Vucurevic?

22    And that would be tab 32.

23       A.   Yes, I did.

24       Q.   Are you -- how are you familiar, if at all, with the voice of

25    Mr. Vucurevic?

Page 13365

 1       A.   Yes.  Although I met him only once or two or three times, but I

 2    listened to his speeches.  He has such a characteristic voice that one has

 3    to recognise it.

 4       Q.   What is characteristic about the voice of Mr. Vucurevic?

 5       A.   Well, the intonation, the depth, the mode of speech, the accent a

 6    very special type of voice.

 7       Q.   What kind of an accent does he have?

 8       A.   Herzegovinian.

 9       Q.   We have also intercepts with the voice of -- it's actually tab 41

10    is an intercept between Karadzic and Jovic, and I would like to know from

11    you how familiar you are with the voice of Mr. Jovic and whether you are

12    able to recognise his voice?

13       A.   Yes.  I know it well.

14       Q.   And how?

15       A.   From many personal contacts and meetings I had with him, I know

16    him very well.

17       Q.   We have also one intercept.  It's tab 46.  One intercept between

18    Mr. Karadzic and Mrs. Plavsic, Biljana Plavsic.  Did you listen into this

19    intercept as well, and did you recognise the voices?

20       A.   I did.  I recognised both the voices of Karadzic and Plavsic.

21       Q.   How familiar are you with Mrs. Plavsic's voice?  How do you know

22    it?

23       A.   I have frequently had meetings with her in person.

24            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I do not think that I have to

25    put now all the other intercepts with Karadzic in front of the witness.  I

Page 13366

 1    think they should be accepted in the form of the declaration, because I

 2    would not need to discuss the contents.

 3            JUDGE MAY:  Well, the matter is still, of course, for the Chamber

 4    to decide whether they'll be admitted or not.  They have been marked for

 5    identification, but of course, there is no need for this witness to go

 6    through them.

 7            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.  Thank you, Your Honour.  I will now

 8    continue with paragraph 320 in the proofing summary and turn to the

 9    military formations on the ground in the SAO Krajina, in particular in the

10    regions where crimes were committed according to the indictment against

11    Mr. Milosevic.

12       Q.   The northern part of the SAO Krajina, in particular the region of

13    Kostajnica and Korenica, did they belong to the 5th Military District of

14    the JNA with headquarters in Zagreb?

15       A.   Yes, that's right.

16       Q.   And who was the commander of the 5th Military District?

17       A.   I don't know exactly.  I think it was General Raseta.  He was

18    either the commander or deputy commander.

19       Q.   Which JNA corps covered these regions?

20       A.   The Zagreb Corps and the Rijeka Corps.

21       Q.   The Rijeka Corps, did they also -- did they also belong to the

22    5th Military District?

23       A.   I think they did.  They were between the Military Naval District

24    and the 5th Military District.  I'm not sure, though, whether they were

25    the 5th District or the Military Naval District.

Page 13367

 1       Q.   In this region of -- in this region that I just mentioned,

 2    Kostajnica and Korenica, were there any military barracks, and if so,

 3    where were they and --

 4       A.   I know of the JNA barracks in Petrinja, the JNA barracks in

 5    Karlovac, the military training ground for the artillery close to Slunj.

 6       Q.   Do you know who was the commander of this artillery training

 7    ground in Slunj?  During the events, that is, summer of 1991, autumn

 8    1991.

 9       A.   I know of Colonel Cedomir Bulat.

10       Q.   How -- what is -- how do you know him and his position?

11       A.   I know.  I was told by the President of the municipality of Slunj

12    at the end of November 1991 that Colonel Cedomir Bulat had taken control

13    of Slunj, which until then had been under the control of the forces of the

14    Croatian government.

15       Q.   Mr. Bulat, was he a JNA officer, and if so, what rank did he

16    have?

17       A.   That's right.  He was a colonel.

18       Q.   Yes.  And who was the commander in Petrinja?

19       A.   For a time it was Slobodan Tarbuk, a colonel.

20       Q.   In which time was he the commander?

21       A.   At the time of the fighting in 1991.

22       Q.   The southern part of the SAO with Knin, Benkovac, was it part of

23    the JNA coastal district with headquarters in Split?

24       A.   That's right.

25       Q.   Who was the commander of the -- this coastal district?

Page 13368

 1       A.   Admiral Mile Kandic.

 2       Q.   And which corps covered this region?  Which JNA corps?

 3       A.   The 9th Corps of the JNA, the Knin Corps.

 4       Q.   You have already mentioned General Vukovic being the commander.

 5    From what time onwards was he the commander?

 6       A.   Sometime around the mid of September 1991.

 7       Q.   Do you know how the Knin Corps commander received his orders?  Did

 8    he receive it through Split, or otherwise?

 9       A.   General Vukovic received orders from the General Staff in

10    Belgrade.

11       Q.   How do you know that?  And if necessary, we can go into private

12    session.  Private session?

13            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Private session, Your Honour.

14 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of the Chamber]

15            THE REGISTRAR:  We're in private session.

16            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

17       Q.   We are in private session.  How do you know that Mr. Vukovic got

18    his orders directly from the General Staff?

19       A.   From at least three pieces of information.  The first was that he

20    took over duty under summary procedure from the then federal secretary,

21    General Veljko Kadijevic, and that is how he came to Knin.  The second

22    point is something that he told me personally, as he did the first point,

23    that he had received orders to move the forces of the corps at the

24    beginning of October 1991.  And third:  Around the 10th of October, he

25    named the General Staff of the Yugoslav People's Army as his Superior

Page 13369

 1    Command.

 2       Q.   Did the Knin Corps also report directly to Belgrade about all

 3    actions?  Do you know that?

 4       A.   Yes.  I had occasion to listen to a conversation between General

 5    Adzic and Colonel Ratko Mladic at the beginning of September 1991.  Mladic

 6    played the tape of this conversation for me, when Adzic criticised him why

 7    they had captured the Maslenica bridge without having received prior

 8    orders to do so.

 9       Q.   What were the circumstances?  What was the topic that you

10    discussed that made him play the tape to you?  What was the particular

11    reason for him to do so?

12       A.   The reason was the following:  In those days, the commander of the

13    Knin Corps was General Spiro Nikolic, and Colonel Mladic and some other

14    officers from the corps, without General Spiro Nikolic knowing about it,

15    carried out the capture of the Maslenica bridge.  General Adzic punished

16    Spiro Nikolic for this and replaced him from that position as a result,

17    and he criticised Mladic for doing this.  And then Mladic wanted to show

18    me and play this conversation for me, and he asked me whether I knew,

19    through political channels, anything more about this position in

20    Belgrade.  And I said that I did not, and that was how the conversation

21    ended.

22            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

23       Q.   Did Colonel Kasum say anything to you about the independence or

24    the dependence and the actions, the orders from Belgrade to the Knin

25    Corps?

Page 13370

 1       A.   Yes, in October 1991.  He was commenting on a particular event - I

 2    can't remember which one - and he said the following: that in the General

 3    Staff in Belgrade, there was an operations map and that not a single tank

 4    on the ground can move without the permission of the General Staff in

 5    Belgrade.

 6            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  We can go back into open session, Your

 7    Honour.

 8                          [Open session]

 9            THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session.

10            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

11       Q.   Witness --

12            JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, it would be, in my opinion, very

13    helpful if you put into a form of a chart what this witness had said in

14    relation to the military formation of JNA, or something like that.  And

15    you may name it as a chain of command or formation of military thing.

16    Before -- and have this witness confirm before he leaves here.

17            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, Your Honour, we can do that, but I'm not

18    sure that we can really manage it until Monday.  We will try our best to

19    do that, but would it also be possible to do that in re-direct?  Would you

20    allow for that, if re-direct is necessary?  Because it's a rather complex

21    matter.

22            JUDGE KWON:  Yes, whatever will be convenient for you.

23            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24       Q.   Witness, we have already discussed the formation of the TO and the

25    problems that existed there.  In relation to the formations on the ground,

Page 13371












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 13372

 1    I would like to put to you just a few additional documents that we have so

 2    far not addressed.  The first one is tab 112 of binder 352, in relation to

 3    the TO and the RSK, the RSK army.  And I have here a military document

 4    from the Supreme Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia Personnel Department of

 5    the 29th of April, 1994, to the Forward Section of the RSK, in relation to

 6    temporary assignment of work of civil persons.  And I would  -- I would

 7    like to know from you:  Where was the Forward Section of the RSK army?  Do

 8    you know where it was situated?

 9       A.   It was in the representative offices of the RSK in Belgrade.  That

10    was the Advance Department of the Ministry of Defence of RSK.

11       Q.   And looking at the document and the person signing this document,

12    the stamps and the header, is this -- can you say anything about the

13    authenticity of this document?

14       A.   On the basis of the letterhead and the stamp, I can say that it is

15    authentic, and that is confirmed by the next document.

16            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  So another document goes with it, and that's

17    actually, Your Honour, tab 113.

18            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the second page of this

19    document.

20            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Oh, yes.  Sorry.  Yes.  There is a second

21    page to it.  Yes.

22       Q.   What does this second page confirm?

23       A.   It confirms the authenticity of the document we are discussing,

24    its content and the signatories.

25       Q.   Witness, did you actually provide these two documents to the

Page 13373

 1    Prosecution during your conversations here in The Hague?

 2       A.   Yes, I did.

 3       Q.   The person, Major General Dusan Zoric, who was he?

 4       A.   Head of the personnel administration of the Army of Yugoslavia.

 5       Q.   And this document, is there actually a transfer facilitated from a

 6    person from the RSK army to the VJ?

 7       A.   That's right.

 8       Q.   Which person, please?

 9       A.   The document under number 3.

10       Q.   So that's Dijana Kovacevic?  Is that the person had who was

11    actually working for the RSK and was then transferred to the VJ?

12       A.   That's right.

13       Q.   Were the authorities of the RSK army, were they actually asked

14    when such transfers were facilitated, or did they just have to accept it?

15       A.   They accepted it, or they agreed with it.

16       Q.   So my question:  Were they asked in advance?  When such transfers

17    were ordered, were the authorities in RSK army, were they asked?

18       A.   No.  This went according to order, and the person was informed.

19            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  And with the help of the usher, I would put

20    to the witness now tab 113, or has he already -- he has it already.

21       Q.   Witness, this is now a document from the 18th Corps Command of the

22    17th of March, 1994, regulating the status of military recruits, and it is

23    signed by commander Colonel Lazo Babic, and it is a stamp from the

24    military post Okucane.

25            This document, is it -- looking at the header, the stamp, and the

Page 13374

 1    signature, is that a authentic document?

 2       A.   Yes.  It doesn't have a signature, but there's the name written,

 3    and an authentic stamp and heading.  And that person, as such, existed

 4    over there with that position, in that position.

 5            JUDGE MAY:  Do you want to say something, Mr. Milosevic?  If so,

 6    we can't hear it.

 7            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I was saying that tab 11, but which

 8    binder?  It's not in this one.

 9            JUDGE MAY:  352, it's 111.

10            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  No.  It's actually 113.

11            JUDGE MAY:  Sorry.  113, yes.  We've dealt with 111.

12            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  113.

13            JUDGE MAY:  Just a moment while the accused finds it.

14            Yes.

15            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

16       Q.   Witness, this document relates to the -- actually, the status of

17    military recruits, and from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  Were they

18    recruits from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia doing their service in

19    the army of the RSK?

20       A.   They were.

21       Q.   Was this a practice, that recruits from the Federal Republic of

22    Yugoslavia did their service in the RSK, and was that also the practice

23    the other way around?

24       A.   Yes, and the other way around.

25       Q.   From -- in which time periods was this a practice?

Page 13375

 1       A.   Throughout the period of existence of the Republic of Serbian

 2    Krajina.

 3       Q.   And how was this organised?

 4       A.   Through the competent administrations of the Army of Yugoslavia

 5    and the Army of the Republic of Srpska Krajina, that is, through the

 6    administration of the army of Yugoslavia that was in charge of this.

 7            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Another exhibit I would like to put to the

 8    witness is tab 152 from that same binder of exhibits, 352, and it's an

 9    order by Colonel General Zivota Panic.

10            I have French translation now.  It's obviously not my ...

11            JUDGE MAY:  Go on.

12            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

13       Q.   Witness, looking at the header and the stamp on the document, and

14    also the signature, can you comment on the authenticity of this document?

15       A.   It is an authentic document, but I don't recognise the signature

16    of Zivota Panic.

17       Q.   Was he in the position given in the document, that is, Chief of

18    Staff of the Yugoslav army at that time, that is, in -- on the 27th of

19    January, 1993?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   Is that document also referring to the practice of acceptance and

22    initiating of conscript soldiers into the army of the RSK?

23       A.   That's right.

24       Q.   Yesterday, sir, you mentioned that the RSK army was not an

25    independent army, and you mentioned also that Mr. Milosevic appointed its

Page 13376

 1    leading officers.  In relation to this remark of yours, did you mean that

 2    he officially appointed the leading officers, or in which way did he deal

 3    with the appointment of officers?

 4       A.   He decided de facto, but officially it was implemented by the

 5    competent bodies, such as the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia, or

 6    the Presidency, while the SFRY was in existence, or rather, the Supreme

 7    Council of Defence when it became the FRY.

 8       Q.   In relation to materiel supplies, I would like to put to you the

 9    Exhibits 153 -- tab 153, Exhibit 352.

10            JUDGE ROBINSON:  Before you go on, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, may I ask

11    the witness whether he has examples of officers so appointed by

12    Mr. Milosevic?

13            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mile Mrksic, for instance, the last

14    commander.  I'm sorry.  I haven't said everything.  Officially, this was

15    implemented also by the bodies of the Republic of Srpska Krajina and the

16    competent bodies of the Army of Yugoslavia.  One example of that is

17    General Mile Mrksic.

18            JUDGE ROBINSON:  What you mean, then, is that he made the

19    appointment and it was officially confirmed by the proper authority?

20            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He really decided, and de facto

21    decided, who would be the commander, and the authorities would confirm

22    that through documents, procedurally.

23            JUDGE ROBINSON:  How would you know this?

24            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I participated in the formal and

25    legal decision-making of Milosevic's practical decisions.

Page 13377

 1            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, we had actually discussed this

 2    situation, and several other situations of that kind, when we went through

 3    the meetings that took place with Mr. Milosevic, and he -- the witness

 4    gave some examples where those matters were discussed and decided.

 5       Q.   Witness, in relation to materiel supplies, I would like to put to

 6    you the document tab 153.  It's a request of the Ministry of Defence of

 7    the RSK, of the 8th of April 1993, to the Chief of General Staff of the

 8    VJ, for Orkan rockets and other rockets, and it is signed by Deputy

 9    Minister Lieutenant Colonel Dusko Babic.  And I would like you -- I would

10    like you to comment on the authenticity in relation to the header, the

11    stamp, and the signature.

12       A.   Yes, it's authentic, only I can't recognise the signature.

13    Everything else is authentic.

14       Q.   Did the RSK army receive Orkan rockets, for instance, Orkan

15    rockets, or the unguided rockets, from the VJ?  Do you know that?

16       A.   Yes, it did.

17       Q.   And how did you get knowledge of this?

18       A.   I know about Orkan from people who manned Orkan or had connections

19    with it, and I also heard of these other rockets.

20            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  With the help of the usher, I would like now

21    to put to the witness the Exhibit 157, and it's -- sorry, the tab 157 from

22    that same exhibit, and it refers to an order by Commander Colonel Milan

23    Celeketic, of the 23rd of December, 1993, in relation to how materials

24    should be received and requested from the VJ.

25            And it says here:

Page 13378

 1            "Requests to the VJ for MS replenishment of the units are to be

 2    sent directly to the Corps Command.  I strictly forbid subordinate

 3    commands and individuals to directly contact the General Staff of the VJ

 4    or the VJ units in order to secure MS."

 5       Q.   Was there a practice at that time, in December 1993, that units

 6    would send their request directly to the VJ, and is that a reason for this

 7    order?  Do you know?

 8       A.   Yes, I heard that the situation in the Army of the Republic of

 9    Srpska Krajina was chaotic at the time, and this is the result of that.

10            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I would like now to put to the witness the

11    tab 155 of that same exhibit.  It is a request for materiel to form a

12    military naval fleet, of the 19th of September.  And the year is actually

13    left open, but in the document as such, it is a meeting -- is referred to

14    a meeting held on the 9th of September, 1994.

15       Q.   Witness, first of all, in relation to authenticity, do you

16    recognise the header, the stamp, and the signature of General Celeketic?

17       A.   Yes, the heading and stamp.  Celeketic was indeed the commander at

18    that time.

19       Q.   Witness, do you know anything about a meeting held on the 9th of

20    September, 1994 in relation to a river force?  Are you aware of this

21    meeting that is mentioned here in this document?

22       A.   No.

23       Q.   Do you know whether such a river -- military naval fleet was then

24    actually founded and equipped?

25       A.   I don't know about any of that.

Page 13379

 1            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  The next document is tab 156.  It's a letter

 2    from the RSK Cabinet of the President to the President of Serbia.

 3       Q.   Is this -- looking at the header, the stamp, and the signature, is

 4    this Goran Hadzic's signature?  Is that the stamp used at that time and

 5    the head of the letter?

 6       A.   Yes, that is the stamp.  And the signature resembles it.  I'm not

 7    quite sure whether it is.

 8       Q.   Mr. Hadzic in this letter is asking for military personnel,

 9    especially for junior officers, performing duties of commanders and

10    commandants, and also for military judges and prosecutors.  Are you aware

11    that this was actually requested at that time?

12       A.   I don't know about the request, but I do know that at that time,

13    or after that time, people did come in, officers did come in, to set up

14    military courts and prosecutors' offices.  A man did come.

15       Q.   And finally, tab 159.  It's a report of the RSK Ministry of

16    Defence, dated the 7th of February, 1995, in relation to materiel,

17    technical support, from the FRY and the Serbian Republic.

18            Do you know this report, and can you say anything about its

19    authenticity, looking at the format of this report and the header, stamp,

20    and signature?

21       A.   There's no stamp on signature, but it's a report that I know

22    about.

23       Q.   Yes.  Who made this report?

24       A.   The Minister of Defence of the RSK, Colonel Rade Tanjga.

25       Q.   And it refers to specific means that were obtained.  And the

Page 13380

 1    figures in this report, do they correspond with your memory of matters?

 2       A.   Yes, more or less.  A thousand tonnes.  Well, I can't quite

 3    remember now exactly what the quantity was.  According to this, that's the

 4    figure.

 5       Q.   Thank you.  And the next document is tab 122.  It's an order to

 6    form the headquarters and units of the Territorial Defence of the

 7    municipalities of the SAO Krajina, from the 21st of August, 1991.  Do you

 8    remember that this decision was made at that time?

 9       A.   Yes, that's right.

10       Q.   The next is tab 116.  It's an order establishing -- establishments

11    of Territorial Defence staff and units of the SAO Krajina, from the 21st

12    of August, 1991.  Was such a decision made?

13       A.   This is the same document.  Yes.  This is an identical document.

14       Q.   Yes.  Yes.  Sorry.  Thank you.  Thank you for this advice.

15            Tab 120, then, please.  It's a document in relation to the

16    creation of operative zones.  And the 1st Operative Zone is

17    Dalmatinsko-Licka, with the municipalities of Knin, Benkovac, Obrovac,

18    Gracac, Donji Lapac and Korenica.  The 2nd Operative Zone is Kordun, with

19    Slunj in it.  And the 3rd Operative Zone is Dvor na Uni, Glina,

20    Kostajnica, Petrinja and Sisak.  Do you recall who were the commanders in

21    these three zones?  Do you know?  Do you recall that?

22       A.   The civilian commander should have been the prime minister of the

23    government of SAO Krajina.  At the end of September, the Main Staff of the

24    Territorial Defence of SAO Krajina was set up, and it began functioning at

25    the beginning of October.  The commander was General Ilija Djujic.

Page 13381

 1       Q.   Let me interrupt you.  This we have already discussed.  I was

 2    asking you for the commanders of the 1st Operative Zone, the level below

 3    the, head.  The level below the Main Staff.  Do you know who was the

 4    commander in the region of the 1st Operative Zone?

 5       A.   They were municipal staffs of Territorial Defence and units

 6    subordinate to the municipal staffs.

 7       Q.   And between the Main Staff and those municipal staffs, was there

 8    another layer of command?  Was there a 1st Operative Zone commander or 2nd

 9    Operative Zone commander and 3rd Operative Zone Commander?

10       A.   First of all, it should have been the commander of the Main Staff

11    of the TO of SAO Krajina, and the 2nd and 3rd zones were changeable,

12    variable.  At the end, it was Colonel Vujaklija who was commander of the

13    2nd and 3rd, a JNA officer.

14       Q.   In this context there is yet another document, tab 127 of that

15    same exhibit, and it relates, actually, to the Unified Territorial Defence

16    Staff is formed for the 2nd and 3rd Operative Zone.  And that is this

17    person that you just mentioned, Vujaklija, then?

18       A.   This is an order on the unification of the zones into one zone.

19       Q.   Yes, and my question was:  Was Mr. Vujaklija the commander of this

20    combined zone?

21       A.   Yes, he was.

22       Q.   And another document, tab 133.  It's also in relation to the

23    structure of the TO of the region Gracac, Donji Lapac, and Korenica, of

24    the 5th of October, 1991.  Is that correct?

25       A.   That's right, yes.

Page 13382












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 13383

 1       Q.   I would like to ask you now about a few specific corps or

 2    divisions that were in the regions of -- the region of Kostajnica,

 3    Petrinja, and Korenica.  Was there a 7th Banija Division; and if so, what

 4    kind of unit was it and where did it operate?

 5       A.   The 7th Banija Division, yes.

 6       Q.   Where was it operating, and what kind of a division was it?  I

 7    mean, was it TO or was it JNA?

 8       A.   It was a volunteer unit organised by the parallel structures which

 9    functioned in the Dvor na Uni, Kostajnica municipalities, and parts of

10    Glina, Petrinja, and later on exclusively in the area of Dvor na Uni and

11    Kostajnica.

12       Q.   Who was its commander in autumn 1991?

13       A.   Bogdan Vajagic.

14       Q.   To whom was he subordinated?

15       A.   Until the end of September 1991, the parallel structures had the

16    command over him, and he was subordinated with the Petrinja garrison of

17    the JNA.  As of October, or rather, when the command was set up of the JNA

18    Operative Group for Kordun and Banija, he was subordinated to that.

19       Q.   And when you said "parallel structure," do you mean this Martic,

20    Frenki group?

21       A.   DB Serbia:  Martic, Frenki, and the rest.

22       Q.   What was the 6th Lika Division?  Can you explain what kind of a

23    unit that was and to which it was subordinated?

24       A.   That was a JNA unit.  In a sense, it was a volunteer unit, but

25    nonetheless it was a JNA unit.  And it was commanded by Savo Jurasovic, a

Page 13384

 1    colonel, who was a commanding officer in Gospic before that, a JNA

 2    officer.  I don't know for how long.

 3            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  With the help of the usher, I would like to

 4    show the witness Exhibit 128.  That's an order regarding the appointment

 5    of Djuro Vujaklija, commander of the TO forces of the 2nd and 3rd

 6    Operative Zone, from the 30th of September, 1991.

 7       A.   That's right, yes.

 8       Q.   The headquarters of Mr. Vujaklija, where were they?

 9       A.   In Vojnic.

10       Q.   To whom did he report?

11       A.   The command of the Operative Group of the JNA, Jasan Maric.

12       Q.   And where was the headquarters of this operative group?

13       A.   That was Samarica Hill, which means are the Kostajnica, Dvor, and

14    Petrinja municipalities meet.

15       Q.   Yes.  And this 6th Lika Division that we just spoke about a moment

16    earlier, was that in -- was that related to that same headquarters in

17    Samarica, or where did it operate?

18       A.   It operated in the Lika area.  It had its headquarters by the

19    Plitvice Lakes, at Mukinje.

20       Q.   Witness, you have already mentioned at an earlier stage of your

21    testimony the pattern of conduct that occurred, and you said already that

22    you saw it happen in the Kostajnica region with -- and in Dubica,

23    Cerovljani, and Bacin.  Are they located in this region?  And do you know

24    when those villages were attacked and who actually attacked them?  Which

25    corps and which TO units?

Page 13385

 1       A.   The fighting was started by the 7th Banija Volunteer Division, in

 2    the area of Dvor and Kostajnica.  Later on, the Petrinja garrison of the

 3    JNA joined in.  And later on these units -- the 7th Banija accepted being

 4    a TO unit but didn't place itself under the competent commands of the TO,

 5    up until the formation of the command of the operative group at Samarica,

 6    when it was subordinated.  Then, in that same area, we saw the involvement

 7    of the Loznica Brigade, from Serbia.  It was mobilised in the region of

 8    Sunj, towards Kostajnica.  I don't know what the deployment of that unit

 9    was exactly.  And the special police units forces of Krajina were active

10    there as well.

11       Q.   Witness, who was the overall commander during the attack on the

12    villages Dubica, Cerovljani, and Bacin?  Do you know that?

13       A.   I don't know exactly when the attacks on these villages took

14    place.  The fighting around Kostajnica took place until the end of

15    September.  That means the 7th Banija and the Petrinja garrison of the JNA

16    joined forces there up until that time.

17       Q.   You have already mentioned that you -- that these villages were

18    destroyed in a certain pattern.  Did that happen during that fighting that

19    you just mentioned, end of September, or at a later date?

20       A.   I passed through those villages in November, or near the villages,

21    at least, in mid-November 1991.  And they had been destroyed after that

22    fighting, that is to say, in those battles, up to the time when I passed

23    by and saw them, before.

24            JUDGE MAY:  Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, when it's a convenient moment.  We

25    seem to be going on to another topic.

Page 13386

 1            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, Your Honour.  We are actually in the

 2    crime scenes.  We are now actually already in the crime scenes, paragraph

 3    337.

 4            JUDGE MAY:  It may be convenient to adjourn now and go on on

 5    Monday.

 6            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, Your Honour.

 7                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.40 p.m.,

 8                          to be reconvened on Monday, the 25th day of

 9                          November, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.