Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15298

1 Friday, 31 January 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

8 JUDGE MAY: Microphone.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I should like to make an objection,

10 because I didn't know, actually, what was happening in connection with

11 this witness. I think this is just a pretext for a change in the order of

12 the witnesses, and I wish to state this for the record, because the

13 witness who was mentioned yesterday received protective measures from you

14 only a couple of days ago.

15 JUDGE MAY: Just one moment. We're in the middle of the

16 examination of this witness, and as you should know by now, if a witness

17 is giving evidence, he shouldn't be interrupted unless it's some relevant

18 part of his evidence which is being objected to.

19 We'll come back to that. We'll come back to that when we finish

20 this witness, and we can then deal with the order of witnesses, the next

21 witness, and anything else you want to raise, but let us finish this

22 witness, your cross-examination. Yes.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May. I had in mind

24 that this subject was raised in the middle of the cross-examination by

25 Mr. Nice. So I thought I was entitled to finishing it. But never mind.

Page 15299

1 WITNESS: WITNESS C-013 [Resumed]

2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]

4 Q. Mr. C-013, you were speaking about prisons, and as far as I

5 understand it, you knew nothing about who was in prison the prisons, what

6 they were doing there, what the conditions inside were. Isn't that right?

7 A. One could put it that way, yes.

8 Q. But you do know that they existed.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Were there Serbs and Croats in those prisons, criminals who had

11 been arrested on various grounds because of their conflict with the law?

12 And people of other ethnicities living in the area, they were all there,

13 weren't they?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And since you didn't have anything to do with prisons, how did it

16 happen that you released some people from prison as a result of which you

17 say you had problems?

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this matter was discussed in

19 private session.

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll go into private session.

21 [Private session]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 15300













13 Pages 15300-15344 redacted private session













Page 15345

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 --- Recess taken at 10.41 a.m.

5 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

6 [Open session]

7 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We are in open session. Mr. Kay.

8 MR. KAY: Your Honours, if we turn to Exhibit 375, tab 1, the

9 first letter. And for the purposes of this questioning, if you turn to

10 page 8 of the English statement of the witness, middle paragraph.

11 Questioned by Mr. Kay:

12 Q. C-013, when you gave evidence yesterday, you told us that the man

13 who came to see you about events at the prison and who gave you this

14 letter then discussed the matter with you; is that right?

15 A. I don't remember exactly. It wasn't just one man; he was Zeljko

16 Cizmic, the chief of the police station in Dalj.

17 Q. Can you answer my question, please? You told us yesterday that he

18 discussed the letter with you when he met you. Is that right?

19 A. I really do not understand the question. Are you referring to

20 this man that I mentioned a moment ago?

21 Q. I am referring to this man.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you explain why in your statement, when you referred to this

24 man coming to your office and giving you this letter to be handed to the

25 minister, you said, "Without telling me anything about the contents of the

Page 15346

1 envelope, he left my office"?

2 A. Yes. I didn't know what was in the envelope, that is true, just

3 then. But then we had a short conversation. Something had happened.

4 Such-and-such a person was there, and then he left the office, and they

5 did such-and-such a thing.

6 Q. If that is your answer, can you also explain, then, why in your

7 statement you have said: "Finally I opened it, and found a document

8 inside.

9 "Having read the document, I realised that it referred to a very

10 serious incident."

11 And that reading of the document was sometime later.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you explain the difference in your stories to this Court?

14 A. A few days ago, I explained that this, this document, was made

15 four years ago, and that after coming here, many things came to mind, and

16 I wanted to complement many points, and maybe that is the difference,

17 nothing more than that.

18 Q. Looking at this document, which I think you mean the statement,

19 that was made during a period of two days, the 16th and 17th of May of

20 1999. That was closer --

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. -- to the time of these events. Isn't that more likely to be a

23 more accurate representation of what happened?

24 A. I don't see any major differences between the two stories. That

25 is what happened. Now, whether that person said anything to me just then

Page 15347

1 or not, and then I later remembered, I think that is not important.

2 Q. Well, that's for others to judge. But I'm giving you an

3 opportunity to explain it because this document and what it means has been

4 challenged by the accused. Do you understand? And it's to be tested as

5 to whether you're telling the truth or not. Do you understand?

6 A. I understand everything.

7 Q. In fact, this statement goes on to say - and I'm turning to page

8 9, Your Honours - that your discussion with the man Cizmic took place

9 after you had opened the letter, some days later, not before receiving the

10 letter.

11 A. I did say that, that we spoke very briefly, maybe for a couple of

12 seconds then, and then the conversation took place later.

13 Q. Looking at the letter which is dated the 23rd of September, do we

14 take it that copies of this letter were sent to other places? Don't

15 identify those places.

16 A. Yes, we can.

17 Q. Let's turn to letter two. This letter you said you'd never seen

18 when you gave evidence yesterday; is that right?

19 A. Yes, I know which letter you're referring to, but I had never seen

20 it.

21 Q. If we look at the letter, your evidence was that in fact you

22 should have received a copy of it. Is that right?

23 A. Yes, that's right.

24 Q. Are you able to give us any explanation, then, as to why, if this

25 official report was typed up for you and you were named as the first

Page 15348












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 15349

1 person to receive it, can you give any explanation why you wouldn't have

2 received it?

3 A. I really cannot. I really cannot provide an explanation why I did

4 not receive it.

5 Q. Looking at the report itself, does it say who wrote the report?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Who does it identify as writing the report? Can you point that

8 out to us?

9 A. I can. Zeljko Cizmic, the commander of the Dalj police station.

10 Q. It said that he signed -- it's shown that he signed the report,

11 but it doesn't say that he wrote the report or conducted the interview

12 that's described within the report. Isn't that right?

13 A. I will need to explain to you the role of the police commander to

14 be able to answer that question.

15 Q. Do we need to go into private session for that or can it be public

16 session?

17 A. I can do it in public.

18 Q. Thank you. If you could, then, give a brief explanation.

19 A. Let me say briefly the commander or commanders of the police do

20 not compile such notes. This is done by the operatives whose duty it is

21 to do that. The commander sends them into the field to establish what had

22 been done, any incidents or acts, and then they have to report to him as

23 to what had been done. He has the right to allow one of the operatives,

24 or order him, to write down what has been done, and he can just sign such

25 a note.

Page 15350

1 Q. Thank you. I've got one other matter to ask you about.

2 MR. KAY: For this purpose, Your Honours, if you could turn to

3 page 5 of the statement, top paragraph.

4 Q. When you gave evidence, C-013, you told us that you went to

5 Belgrade and, amongst other things, collected weapons, and you gave the

6 Court details about that and about bringing them back. Can you explain

7 the apparent contradiction in your statement which says that at the time

8 of collecting equipment, equipment was delivered from Serbia for the

9 militia and you were called at home and told to come and take over the

10 equipment, and you took the truck to the office and stored it there, and

11 the next morning distributed it, being the equipment.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour?

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I think we have to go into private session

15 because it's now actually touching very much --

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Private session.

17 [Private session]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 15351













13 Page 15351 redacted private session













Page 15352

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [Open session]

5 Re-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

6 Q. Witness, I would also like to refer to your statement, and it's

7 actually the last paragraph of page 10, and I would like to quote. You

8 say here: "I would also like to state that I have more information

9 directly related to crimes committed in the territory of Eastern Slavonia,

10 Baranja, and Western Srem. This information could jeopardise my life if

11 leaked out. Therefore, I'm not willing or able to discuss it with the

12 investigator at present."

13 At the time when you gave that statement, were you afraid and did

14 you, therefore, not tell all you know?

15 A. Yes. At that time, [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 15353

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours --

9 Q. Let me stop you.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I think we should go into private session.

11 [Private session]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 15354













13 Pages 15354-15358 redacted private session













Page 15359

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [Open session]


24 Q. Mr. Milosevic suggested to you that the Serbian MUP simply

25 assisted the SAO authorities in establishing a civilian police to prevent

Page 15360

1 looting. If I understood you correctly, it was the TO forces and Arkan

2 who did the looting.

3 Did the MUP Serbia arm the TO and the people who did the looting?

4 Do you know?

5 A. Yes, it did.

6 Q. And the special forces that arrived with Zavisic and later on, did

7 they ever help you to prevent looting?

8 A. No. They worked independently. And to this day, I don't know

9 what their field of activity was, in fact.

10 Q. Did the military authorities and the persons like Zavisic, Ante

11 Kostic, Badza, did they ever assist you in your civilian duties and

12 prevent the looting? Effectively assist you?

13 A. I can say quite frankly no, they did not.

14 Q. You mentioned -- or, rather, Mr. Milosevic addressed with you the

15 person Dokmanovic, and you mentioned that he visited Mr. Milosevic in

16 April and May and that he told you that. When -- which year do you mean,

17 and when did Mr. Dokmanovic tell you about it?

18 A. The year was 1991, and I saw Dokmanovic many times at TO meetings,

19 in April, May, June. And every time he would say where he had been, what

20 he had been doing, as well as the objectives in that region.

21 Q. You mentioned also the person Taska when you were asked, that he

22 went to see Milosevic. Did Taska tell you that himself or how do you know

23 that, and about what time period are we talking?

24 A. We're talking about that same time period, the same one that

25 Dokmanovic is mentioned in except - and I have to correct myself there -

Page 15361

1 this was in April and May because, as you know, I left Bobota towards the

2 end of May or mid-May.

3 At that time already, Tasak had been going to Belgrade every few

4 days and he would return from there and say that he had been to see

5 Mr. Milosevic, he had been with Mr. Milosevic.

6 Q. Mr. Milosevic asked you whether you fled the region, and you

7 actually said that you were expelled, and I would like to try to establish

8 what you mean when you used that term. Did you leave the region because

9 you were afraid to get killed or harmed?

10 A. Yes. You put it very correctly.

11 Q. You had actually a similar exchange with Mr. Milosevic in relation

12 to the fate of the Croatian population in and around Dalj when

13 Mr. Milosevic put to you that the Croat population were not expelled but

14 simply withdrew. You disagreed with him, and you said that there were

15 many instances when members of the TO entered people's houses and forced

16 them out.

17 Let me, therefore, clarify. Were -- was the Croatian population

18 forcefully --

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I have an objection.

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In the cross-examination, I put it

22 to the witness -- I put his own statement to the witness in which it says

23 quite literally - and I can find the passage and read it out to you - that

24 the Croats who remained in Dalj after the liberation of Dalj did not have

25 any problems. And I asked him to confirm that. And then he changed his

Page 15362

1 testimony afterwards. So I didn't present this assertion; I was quoting

2 from his own statement, his own words when he said that the Croatian

3 population over there had no problems.

4 JUDGE MAY: We can find the witness statement and we can look at

5 the passage. Yes. Let's go on.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Found it. Here it is. Page 5,

7 paragraph 2. It says here, and this is what I quoted: "The Croats who

8 remained in the village at that time had no serious problems." And that

9 is quite contradictory to his answer and response to the question during

10 the examination-in-chief the day before yesterday as to whether all the

11 Croats had left Dalj, and in answer to that, he said all of them did, that

12 they had been expelled from Dalj --

13 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you have made your point. You've made

14 your point. Yes. We will find it. We will look at the statement. It

15 will be for us to make a decision about the effect of it.

16 Now, counsel is entitled to clarify the position.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My objection was that the lady over

18 there was questioning the witness wrongly and presenting his assertions as

19 being my assertions.

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We've heard what you've said.

21 Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I think there is something wrong with my

23 microphone. It doesn't work. Oh, now it's working.

24 Your Honour, I did not misquote the accused. Actually, it is --

25 what he put to the witness --

Page 15363

1 JUDGE MAY: Let's not spend too much time on this.


3 JUDGE MAY: Clarify it.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I want to clarify.

5 Q. You mentioned that Croats were forced out of their houses. Who

6 did that, and in what kind of an amount did that take place?

7 A. That was done by the members of the TO. They were the ones who

8 did that, and the citizens themselves, amongst themselves. And I remember

9 very well having said that in my first statement. Neighbours against

10 neighbours. And I also remember full well that I said that that same

11 evening this was shown on television. So there is video footage and

12 evidence of that.

13 Q. Did that happen during or after the attack or both?

14 A. Afterwards, after. This took place in the afternoon and the

15 evening of that same day. And the camera crew had already arrived from

16 the other side of the Danube, and this was directly televised.

17 Q. Mr. Milosevic put to you this quote in your statement, that the

18 Croats that stayed did not have serious problems. And if it is -- the

19 complete quote is, "at that time." And I would like to ask you: At the

20 same time you told us about the detention of people, you told us about

21 abductions by Arkan, and you spoke about the looting. Can you explain

22 this discrepancy as it seems, the seemingly -- this sentence, can you

23 explain this sentence, what you meant, that the Croats that remained did

24 not have serious problems at that time? What does that mean?

25 A. I explained -- actually, I asked him whether it was yesterday or

Page 15364

1 the day before, but I explained the term "at that time," and that "at that

2 time" meant during that particular day or two days, while the attack was

3 going on and immediately after the attack, nothing more than that.

4 Q. And the Croatian population, did they experience problems later

5 on?

6 A. I explained that too. The Croatian population, in general, is

7 considered to be -- that is to say, the members of all the nations or

8 ethnic groups that are not of Serb religion. I said that many such people

9 had stayed on in Dalj, Dalj mountain, and that the two or three villages

10 that exist up there, that they were mostly populated by Hungarian

11 inhabitants, by Hungarians, in fact. So those are the people that stayed

12 up there and against whom this terror was exerted mostly.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, that's my last question.

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

15 MR. KAY: One matter to be raised -- there is one matter to be

16 raised. If Your Honours look at the first page of the newspaper article,

17 where it says, "Your mandate was finished after the 9th of March. Do you

18 believe that the 9th of March was a police mistake?"

19 I point that out in the interests of the accused.

20 JUDGE MAY: Clearly we will need some other evidence on the point.

21 Are we in open session? We are.

22 Witness C-013, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming

23 to the International Tribunal to give it. You are free to go.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

25 [The witness withdrew]

Page 15365

1 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, while we're waiting for the witness to

2 be brought in, there are a couple of preliminary matters. It seems that

3 Mr. Kirudja has been the subject of some protective measures. After

4 having discussed this with Mr. Kirudja during his days here in The Hague,

5 he is not requesting any protective measures, and I would therefore ask

6 the Chamber to amend any prior order which would have granted any

7 protective measures for this witness.

8 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

9 MR. GROOME: Secondly, Your Honour, the witness spent over three

10 years in the former Yugoslavia in an official capacity and conducted many

11 meetings and negotiations. He has brought to The Hague his notebooks from

12 that time and has asked that they be near him should his memory fail.

13 They are here at the front of the courtroom. I would ask that he be

14 permitted to have -- that they be placed within his reach so he may refer

15 to them if he needs to during the course of his testimony.

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes, he can certainly do that.

17 MR. GROOME: And then finally, Your Honour, in preparation for Mr.

18 Kirudja's testimony, a number of reports that he authored were reviewed.

19 Now, while these documents are not Rule 68 as to Mr. Kirudja, they have

20 nothing to do with his credibility, there is a view of these documents

21 that they would corroborate some of the statements made by the accused

22 that might be considered in the nature of a defence. Clearance has just

23 been received for these documents. They have been disclosed this morning.

24 I raise this now - it's a rather small packet of documents - but just to

25 draw the attention of the accused and the amici to these documents. They

Page 15366

1 may wish to review them over the weekend, and they may wish to -- Mr.

2 Kirudja would be the person best able to authenticate and speak to these

3 documents, they may wish to ask Mr. Kirudja about these reports. I would

4 also note that they are available to be entered into evidence. The

5 provider has released any claim of confidentiality over the documents.

6 JUDGE MAY: So -- just a moment. The package is available, is it,

7 whatever?

8 MR. GROOME: It was handed over this morning, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE MAY: It was handed over both to the amici and to the

10 accused.

11 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE MAY: So they have them and they may review them over the

13 weekend, and if they want to ask questions about them, this is the witness

14 to ask.

15 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. Just a clarification: They were

16 handed to the registrar to be given to the accused. I don't know if he

17 has physical possession of them yet.

18 JUDGE MAY: But they'll be coming his way.

19 MR. GROOME: Thank you.

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Yes, Mr. Milosevic, what is it?

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

22 JUDGE MAY: They can't hear you. They can't hear you.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I was saying -- my question was why

24 we're in private session, but I see that in the meantime, it's been

25 public, so there's no point in my putting that question at all.

Page 15367

1 MR. NICE: Your Honour, before --

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, we're now in open session, so there is no

3 difficulty about that.

4 Yes. You've heard what counsel has said, that there will be some

5 documents which will be served on you which relate to this witness which

6 may be helpful to your case, so you should have a look at them over the

7 weekend.

8 MR. NICE: Your Honour, before we start on the next witness, can I

9 just mention a couple of administrative things that concern next week and

10 Monday. Reminding the Chamber that the accused was already wanting to

11 raise something about the witness list.

12 He's been served with a witness list, I hope this morning, which

13 identifies today's witness and the witnesses coming next week. I trust

14 the Chamber has a list as well.

15 JUDGE MAY: We do.

16 MR. NICE: C-39 won't start before Tuesday. Dr. Bosanac may be

17 taken quite shortly.

18 JUDGE MAY: While we're dealing with that witness, we have, of

19 course, made an order in relation to her transcript being admitted.

20 MR. NICE: Indeed so, and that's one of the reasons why she may be

21 taken quite shortly. In any event, there really is the need for some

22 resolution of some of the outstanding procedural issues. There's the

23 financial argument, and it's now been fully addressed, or substantially

24 addressed, in writing, and we would be anxious to dispose of that, were

25 that convenient, on Monday.

Page 15368












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 15369

1 JUDGE MAY: It's not convenient on Monday. We recognise -- we

2 recognise the -- that it is outstanding. Unless there's any very good

3 reason, we would rather hear evidence. We have earmarked a date for it,

4 which is a day on which we have to hear an interlocutory application, the

5 25th of February, and it may be convenient to have that day for legal

6 argument and include Torkildsen as well as progress of the case into the

7 agenda for the day.

8 MR. NICE: In which case only one other thing that we would have

9 wanted possibly to raise on Monday, and that is part, in any event, of our

10 general concerns about procedures, that we've had the first 92 bis

11 application response from the amici, and I gather the other one's

12 available and is going to be -- and is going to be served possibly a

13 courtesy copy today and filed --

14 JUDGE MAY: Will that be done, please, so we have it for the

15 weekend.

16 MR. KAY: Yes, the transcript one. We've done the 64 witnesses,

17 was done and --

18 JUDGE MAY: It just hasn't made its way to me is all. Judge Kwon

19 has it.

20 MR. NICE: We are obviously anxious to know what the real current

21 consequences of the time limit are. First of all, we need -- we need to

22 know whether our calculation of the number of days remaining matches

23 yours, and of course, we need resolution of the 92 bis matter, because,

24 for example, if 92 bis witnesses are all going to be cross-examined,

25 that's another 17 days for Croatia alone on the basis of the number of

Page 15370

1 witnesses we are calling, or something like that. And we need resolution

2 of that to budget remaining time and/or to persuade the Chamber further

3 about procedural steps that may save time. So we are very anxious that

4 that matter can be heard as swiftly as possible.

5 JUDGE MAY: Of course. As I say, the date we have in mind is the

6 25th of February.

7 MR. NICE: Thank you very much.

8 JUDGE MAY: Just help me on one thing, Mr. Nice. I'm looking at

9 the overall number of witnesses. We had a list on the 31st of July. I

10 take it that that has now been bypassed by the list which you provided on

11 the 11th of December.

12 MR. NICE: Certainly, yes.

13 JUDGE MAY: That is the up-to-date list from which we should be

14 working.

15 MR. NICE: Certainly the up-to-date list as of December. I can't,

16 I'm afraid, recall whether there have been further amendments, but there

17 may well have been. But no, that's the list to be working off for the

18 time being.

19 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

20 MR. NICE: And one chart was provided in some detail for Croatia.

21 There's another chart that's either been prepared or soon to be prepared

22 for Bosnia and will be served on you if it hasn't been already. I can't

23 remember the position on that.

24 There will be another motion about that today.

25 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Thank you.

Page 15371

1 MR. KAY: It would help us to know if there were any legal issues

2 that would be taken on Monday because, if possible, I'm struggling with

3 the judicial notice motion at the moment, which is quite a considerable

4 document, and it's easier for me not to be in court, to deal with that.

5 JUDGE MAY: Well, Mr. Nice, are there any immediate issues which

6 you need dealing with? I mean, I doubt we'll be in a position to deal

7 with the Rule 92 bis. There are 64 at least, if not 70, statements

8 involved and I doubt we will be able to deal with that on Monday.

9 MR. NICE: Your Honour, if -- if this witness takes a significant

10 amount of Monday, as he may well now do, given the time, and if

11 Dr. Bosanac is available, we can easily fill up Monday. But I wouldn't

12 want -- I wouldn't want any delay to occur in relation to 92 bis because

13 we really do need to know as soon as we possibly can.

14 JUDGE MAY: Very well. The only thing is we need a date -- to fix

15 a date to hear legal argument about 92 bis. At the moment, we have in

16 mind the 25th of February, but if you would wish us to deal with the

17 matter earlier, of course we'll consider that.

18 MR. NICE: I'll revert.

19 JUDGE MAY: Perhaps you could let Mr. Kay know when you have in

20 mind.

21 MR. NICE: Certainly. But I'm sure he can safely be out of court,

22 on the present basis, on Monday.

23 MR. KAY: Would the Court forgive me if I just leave and make

24 certain arrangements which need to be made, and I'll rejoin the court

25 after the break.

Page 15372

1 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I should like to make an objection.

3 In my opinion, the other side is intentionally complicating and causing

4 confusion with the schedule of witnesses. They keep changing the order of

5 witnesses, and you saw yesterday that the witness that should have

6 appeared today has been removed from the list with the explanation that

7 somebody threatened him, though it was a witness who has given, granted

8 protective measures by you a couple of days ago.

9 So it appears that throughout this time while he was not

10 protected, nobody threatened him, but only a couple of days when he was

11 granted protective measures --

12 MR. NICE: I suspect this is --

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- suddenly he was threatened.

14 MR. NICE: -- oblique attempt by this witness [sic] to identify

15 yet another witness, and we dealt with it yesterday. We dealt with it on

16 the basis that the witness was carefully not being identified. The

17 accused knows perfectly well what is afoot. When he said yesterday his

18 only desire was to know the order of witnesses, I was tempted to reply

19 that it was to do with the order of witnesses that threats were effective.

20 I can see no substance in what the accused is raising. All that's

21 happened is there has been some acceleration of witnesses. He is no doubt

22 ready to deal with this witness and what he is doing would seem to me to

23 be probably devious.

24 JUDGE MAY: No. We disagree. He's entitled to make his

25 objection.

Page 15373

1 Now, you know quite well that if there's anything that should lead

2 us into private session, Mr. Milosevic, we should go in there, but we'll

3 let you make your objection, although so far, I can see no substance in

4 it.

5 Now, what is it, the objection you want to make?

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My objection is that I believe that

7 this is fabricated and also the next witness, Graham Blewitt, as far as I

8 know, he's a Deputy Prosecutor, and he was not protected, and I assume

9 that he was threatened and that's why he's been removed as well. So we

10 have the next witness now in order --

11 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, there is absolutely no substance in

12 that suggestion. If there was any question of our thinking that this list

13 was being manipulated for some improper purpose, we would rule on it. But

14 there is none. This is a long and complex case involving a large number

15 of witnesses who -- most of whom come from the region or from other areas

16 of the world. It has been complicated by the fact that you have been ill

17 from time to time and, therefore, the time has been broken up.

18 There is no substance in what you say. We will protect your

19 interests, which is this: That you should have time properly to prepare

20 for each witness. We will do that and ensure that you do. Apart from

21 that, there is nothing in what you say.

22 Now, let us get on with the evidence.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have another matter to raise.

24 JUDGE MAY: Well, quickly. Quickly.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very quickly. I'm saving both my

Page 15374

1 time and yours, as much as I can.

2 A moment ago, Mr. Nice said that the next witness, one of the next

3 witnesses was Vesna Bosanac, that she would be brief, with some kind of

4 transcript being attached from an earlier hearing. I think that is also

5 unfair, because it is directed exclusively to limit my time.

6 JUDGE MAY: I'm going to interrupt you. In relation to a later

7 witness, you can address us before she comes to give evidence. We're not

8 going to waste time on it now. But if you care to look at the order which

9 we made, you'll see that we admitted the transcript.

10 Now, for the moment, we'll hear from this witness. In due course,

11 we'll deal with others. Yes.

12 No. No, Mr. Milosevic. You've taken up enough time.

13 Yes.

14 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution calls Mr. Charles

15 Kirudja.

16 Your Honour, while he's being brought in, there is simply one

17 binder of exhibits the Prosecution will seek to tender. Perhaps a number

18 could be assigned to that now. I will be working with exhibits from the

19 outset.

20 THE REGISTRAR: That's Prosecutor's Exhibit 378.

21 [The witness entered court]

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

23 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

24 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

25 JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to particular take a seat.

Page 15375



3 Examined by Mr. Groome:

4 Q. Mr. Kirudja, the Chamber has permitted you to have access to your

5 diaries during your examination. I'd ask you to just take a moment to

6 arrange them in a way that will allow you to get to specific dates

7 quickly.

8 Mr. Kirudja, who do you presently work for?

9 A. United Nations.

10 MR. GROOME: I'd ask that the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit

11 378, tab 1.

12 Q. Mr. Kirudja, I would ask you to look at this document and tell us

13 what it is.

14 A. It's a copy of my resume.

15 Q. To abbreviate your testimony, I will not ask you detailed

16 questions about your background. Are you willing to answer questions

17 about your educational and professional background should the amici or the

18 accused wish to ask you?

19 A. Yes, I would.

20 Q. I want to focus in on your time in Yugoslavia. Can you please

21 tell us what period of time did you work in Yugoslavia or the former

22 Yugoslavia?

23 A. I arrived in the former Yugoslavia first week of April, 1992, and

24 served there until June 1995.

25 Q. Can you please briefly tell us the different locations you were

Page 15376

1 stationed at during that three-year period before we continue.

2 A. First I was assigned to Sector North and proceeded there through

3 Sector East, arriving in Sector North Topusko around 18th of April.

4 Q. Where did you serve next?

5 A. I remained in Topusko in the capacity position of civil affairs

6 coordinator until around August 1994 and then was asked to relocate and

7 resume -- and assume the role of chief civil affairs -- Chief of Staff of

8 civil affairs in Zagreb, where I remained until towards the August 1994,

9 and then I was posted to Belgrade in the capacity of the delegate of the

10 Special Representative of the Secretary-General, where I remained until

11 June 1995.

12 Q. I want to focus the first part of my questions to you on your

13 responsibilities in Sector North. Is it true that Sector North is located

14 in Croatia?

15 A. Yes it is.

16 Q. And was that one of four designated areas, so designated by the

17 Vance Plan, in Croatia?

18 A. Yes, it is.

19 MR. GROOME: I'd ask that Prosecution 378, tab 2, be placed on the

20 overhead projector, and I would point out that this is a photocopy of an

21 earlier Prosecution Exhibit, 336, pages 20 and 21. That's the map book.

22 Q. Mr. Kirudja, do you recognise Prosecution 378, tab 2?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. And what is that? What is depicted in that exhibit?

25 A. It's an approximate demarcation of what became Sector North of the

Page 15377

1 area of deployment of the United Nations Protection Force.

2 Q. Did part of -- the area that you've outlined, I'd ask you to point

3 to it with the pointer.

4 A. This is the area demarcated in black, approximately.

5 Q. Part of the area or the outline of Sector North, was that an

6 internationally recognised border?

7 A. Not all of it. I beg your pardon. Not all of it. The part that

8 constituted an international border in the sense of the recognised border

9 between Croatia and Bosnia is this part beginning right here, following

10 that, coming right through Velika Kladusa, all of this, continuing that

11 way, continuing that way. It proceeded the other way but the sector did

12 not extend that far. And then this rough demarcation turns around that

13 area, as you can see, proceeds this way, and ends there. This is not an

14 international border.

15 Q. So the record captures that, would it be fair to say that the

16 lower line on the map is the international border? The upper and the

17 left-hand line indicates an internal border of Croatia?

18 A. That's partially correct. The bottom part indicates an

19 international border. The top part indicates an approximate extent of

20 what became the boundary of Sector North and not necessarily an

21 international border.

22 Q. Could I ask you to indicate where your office was located when you

23 worked in Sector North.

24 A. Right here, in a place named Topusko.

25 Q. Now, would it be fair to say that your primary responsibility in

Page 15378












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 15379

1 Sector North was to work as a member of the UN in the implementation of

2 the Vance Plan?

3 A. Yes, it is.

4 Q. Can I ask you to please describe for the Chamber the paramount

5 features of the Vance Plan.

6 A. Vance Plan had basically three essential or prime components which

7 are described basically in terms of operational requirement as the first

8 part being the complete demobilisation of the previous military forces and

9 containment of the weapons that were issued to those units under United

10 Nations joint custody, what in the Vance Plan is known as double key.

11 That was the essence of the primary and immediate requirement or

12 expectation of the Vance Plan.

13 Second, the Vance Plan did envisage a requirement for someone to

14 keep law and order after these forces had been demobilised. It therefore

15 required a police force be in the area and be made up of the local police

16 that -- be made of local police only endowed with light weapons, side

17 weapons, and that that police be monitored closely by the UN deployment of

18 civil police and it would be responsible for law and order, and that

19 police be made up of representatives of the community as it used to be

20 prior to the forces. That's the second part.

21 Third part, the Vance Plan also envisaged that after the

22 demobilisation, after the police is deployed in the manner I have

23 mentioned under the monitoring of the UN, that there be conditions that

24 would be conducive for voluntary return of all displaced persons in the

25 area, and such conditions necessitated trying to look after rebuilding,

Page 15380

1 restoration of the infrastructure and so forth, humanitarian aid and all

2 of that, and that would be the third major component.

3 Q. I want to ask you about the second feature, that dealt with law

4 and order. Did part of that also place restrictions on the type of

5 governmental system that could exist in the area?

6 A. The Vance Plan had recognised in those areas where the UN be

7 deployed, it named opstinas - roughly translated to municipalities - that

8 were constituted at that time, consisting of a mayor and a police force.

9 And those opstinas named as comprising each of the sectors would be the

10 soul recognised authority in the area for the purposes of the Vance Plan,

11 maintenance of the status quo and law and order.

12 An example: In Sector North, there is Vrginmost. It's a police

13 station. It's a municipality. It had a mayor called Obradovic and it had

14 a police chief called Djuro Skaljac. That was the recognised authority in

15 Vrginmost. Other than that, the Vance Plan recognised the signatories of

16 that Vance Plan, which were the authorities in Belgrade and the

17 authorities in Zagreb.

18 Q. So was it correct then that the Vance Plan did not recognise any

19 umbrella governmental structure that united local municipalities in this

20 area?

21 A. It's correct.

22 Q. Now, who was the head of the UN mission to Croatia at this time?

23 A. Initially when this mission was deployed, it was Lieutenant

24 General Satish Nambiar.

25 Q. And was he a military person or a civilian?

Page 15381

1 A. He was a lieutenant general, a military person.

2 Q. And was it unusual for a UN mission to be headed by a military

3 person?

4 A. Yes indeed. This was very deliberate. And the then head of the

5 DPKO in New York, the department of peacekeeping operation, Marrack

6 Goulding, did explain publicly why that was so, and that was because the

7 Vance Plan was a holding pattern of the status quo pending a lasting

8 solution, political solution being found elsewhere outside the mission,

9 and to underscore that point, the mission was not headed as normally it

10 would be by a Special Representative of the Secretary-General, to serve

11 notice that it did not have responsibilities for political negotiations

12 for the matters that separated the parties.

13 Q. Was that --

14 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Groome, when you get to a convenient moment, it's

15 time for a break.

16 MR. GROOME: This would be convenient, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kirudja, we're going to break now. In this and

18 any other breaks there may be, may I remind you not to speak about your

19 evidence until it's over, and that does include the members of the

20 Prosecution team.

21 We will adjourn now for 20 minutes.

22 THE WITNESS: Understood.

23 --- Recess taken at 12.17 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 12.36 p.m.

25 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Groome.

Page 15382


2 Q. Mr. Kirudja, just before the break you were explaining to us why a

3 military person was the head of the implementation of the Vance Plan. I'd

4 like to ask you a few more details about the Vance Plan. Are you familiar

5 with the term UNPA or U-N-P-A?

6 A. Yes, I am.

7 Q. What is that, please?

8 A. It stands for the United Nations Protected Area.

9 Q. And can you please describe what was a UN protected area in terms

10 of the Vance Plan.

11 A. Basically, these are the areas in Croatia where there had been a

12 conflict by what was referred to in those days as local Serbs, Croatian

13 Serbs, and that territory had been under the control of those local Serbs,

14 and those were the areas where the United Nations protected -- protection

15 force, UNPROFOR, was to be deployed.

16 Q. Now, your tenure in Sector North lasted from April 1992 until

17 March of 1994; is that correct?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. Can you please tell us what your title or titles were during that

20 period.

21 A. When we started out, the title was given in Sector North was chief

22 civil affairs official, and within a few weeks, the head of civil affairs

23 normalised that title to civil affairs coordinator.

24 Q. And who was your immediate superior?

25 A. Mr. Cedric Thornberry, director of civil affairs.

Page 15383

1 Q. Now, can you briefly tell us what your primary responsibilities

2 were with respect to the implementation of the Vance Plan.

3 A. As civil affairs coordinator, my responsibilities included seeing

4 to it that the assets of the United Nations deployed in the mission were

5 put fully to use and deployed for the purposes envisaged in the Vance Plan

6 as well as in the normal way the United Nations missions are conducted.

7 That included, specifically, an advisory role to the military sector

8 commander in order for him to be familiar with how the mandate of the UN

9 is to be executed. Then there were responsibilities that were civil --

10 civilian in nature that were directly under my responsibilities, and that

11 was particularly in terms of civil -- work of the civil police and

12 humanitarian work, the construction of infrastructure, and so forth.

13 Q. Your work on the military side of this, did that include

14 participating in negotiations regarding cease-fires, the handing over of

15 weapons, the control of borders, and securing of the confrontation line?

16 A. Yes, they did include that.

17 Q. During the course of your meetings and negotiations in this

18 regard, can you briefly tell us the types of and the level of military

19 people that you would deal with.

20 A. There were -- you could group those military groups in three

21 categories. We have the military, our own military structure, the sector

22 commander on the one side, that is on my team side. Then there was the

23 military of the local forces that were there before we came in, and that

24 divided into two groups; on the Serb side and on the Croatian side.

25 Q. Now, the forces that represented the United Nations, what was the

Page 15384

1 name given to those troops?

2 A. Those troops were always known as United Nations protection --

3 peacekeeping forces.

4 Q. Were they also known as UNPROFOR?

5 A. Yes; United Nations Protection Force.

6 Q. Could you tell us the name of the general on the Serb side who you

7 most had contact with.

8 A. At the beginning when we arrived in Sector North, we had to deal

9 with the commander of the 10th Corps, Lieutenant General Spiro Nikovic.

10 Q. Now, with respect to your duties regarding the police structures,

11 would you be dealing with the local police chief, such as Mr. Skaljac who

12 you testified to already?

13 A. Yes. On the police chief -- it's not just that but all police

14 chiefs in the opstinas that were part of Sector North, and there were a

15 number of them.

16 Q. Did your negotiations, or did you have any business to conduct

17 with the member of the Ministry of Interior of the Republic of Serbia?

18 A. No.

19 Q. And did the Vance Plan envisage that the Republic of Serbia

20 Ministry of Interior had any role to plan in the implementation of the

21 Vance Plan?

22 A. Not in that area that I designated.

23 Q. Do you recall the day that you first arrived in Sector North?

24 A. Yes. I recall that it was on or about 18th of April.

25 Q. When you arrived, was there a UN presence in Sector North

Page 15385

1 already?

2 A. Yes, we had already two battalions deployed there; the Polish

3 battalion and the Danish battalion.

4 Q. And was there a period of time when you were in Sector North that

5 you yourself were dependent upon the JNA for fuel, food, and logistical

6 support?

7 A. Very much in that very early period when we arrived. Not all the

8 contingent or the means of the -- assets of the United Nations had

9 arrived, and therefore, we depended very much so on the support of the JNA

10 units that were still in the area.

11 Q. And was it not a fact that the JNA brought you to Sector North

12 your first time?

13 A. Yes. The bus that took me from Belgrade was operated and secured

14 by the JNA.

15 Q. Can you tell us who you met in Sector North your very first day.

16 A. Other than the sector commander?

17 Q. The sector commander, can you tell us his name?

18 A. Yes. It was Brigadier General Musa Bamaiyi of Nigeria.

19 Q. And did you meet the local UN police chief?

20 A. There was the local UN police chief by the name of Kai Vittrup of

21 Denmark.

22 Q. And did you meet anybody else that day?

23 A. Yes. There was a man that introduced himself to me as court

24 liaison with the local authorities.

25 Q. And did he tell you his name?

Page 15386

1 A. Yes. He introduced himself as Slobodan Lazarevic.

2 Q. During your first meeting or interaction with Mr. Lazarevic, did

3 he offer to introduce you to someone?

4 A. Yes. He offered to -- first he offered to tell me who was who in

5 terms of local authorities and then zeroed with one person. He said, "You

6 need to meet this gentleman as soon as you can. He's useful or

7 influential," whatever.

8 Q. And do you recall the name that he told you?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And what was the name?

11 A. A man he named as Toso Paic.

12 MR. GROOME: I'm going to ask that Prosecution Exhibit 378 tab 3

13 be placed on the overhead projector.

14 Q. Mr. Kirudja, I would ask you, do you recognise what is now on the

15 overhead projector?

16 A. Yes. Those are photographs of some of the individuals.

17 Q. Are those some of the individuals that you've mentioned here

18 today?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Who labelled this photograph?

21 A. I did.

22 Q. Did you do that yesterday or the day before?

23 A. It was yesterday.

24 Q. Thank you. Now, during your tenure in Sector North, did you have

25 other dealings with Mr. Lazarevic?

Page 15387

1 A. Yes, frequently.

2 Q. Can you please tell us the context and give us, in a very summary

3 fashion, your impression of and your interaction with Mr. Lazarevic.

4 A. My initial encounter -- meeting with Mr. Lazarevic and subsequent

5 events, he struck me as trying very much, without even my invitation, to

6 tell me a lot of things that I didn't ask, many of which were in the

7 nature of, like, "You will need me." And I got the feeling that I'm being

8 framed for something. I'm being asked to be dependent on a man that I

9 don't even know what he is quite after, and I began to be, frankly,

10 suspicious.

11 Q. Did there come a time when you viewed him as obstructing your

12 work?

13 A. It didn't take long for that to happen, and it did, and I -- the

14 effect was serious.

15 Q. Can you give us a concrete example of a way in which he obstructed

16 your work.

17 A. Not long, a matter of weeks, we had, of course, begun to hire our

18 own local staff to assist in the UN mission in the normal way, and we had

19 hired one resident of Topusko who was an interpreter. She began shortly

20 to complain to me of Mr. Lazarevic in the manner that made her very

21 nervous, and pretty soon things got out of hand. I was out on a mission

22 on a normal day, and I come back to the headquarters to find she's been

23 arrested.

24 Q. Are you able to tell us her name?

25 A. Yes, I can.

Page 15388












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 15389

1 Q. What is it?

2 A. She was Miss Indira Kulenovic.

3 Q. And can you describe -- when you returned from the mission, did

4 you make inquiries as to why she was arrested?

5 A. Yes. Not only -- I actually went to the police station where she

6 had been charged, and that was in Vrginmost, and I received from the chief

7 of police charges against her.

8 Q. And what were the charges against her, as best as you can

9 remember?

10 A. I remember them because they were rather difficult for me to

11 appreciate since they didn't sound natural. The first charge was that she

12 was hired by the United Nations without local authority's agreement. The

13 second charge was also unnatural; she was a foreigner. I repeat, we hired

14 her as a resident of Topusko. Another charge was that she was taking the

15 UN to places without authorisation. That also didn't look natural,

16 because as an interpreter, she just went along where the UN wanted to go.

17 And finally, she was charged with the, quote, spreading misinformation.

18 Q. What ultimately happened to Mrs. Kulenovic?

19 A. Well, as soon as I find that she is now under arrest and under

20 these kind of charges, I feared that the worst to come to her. I just had

21 her transported across the boundary to Bihac where we had an UNMO office,

22 and she continued to work there in safety.

23 Q. Was there another incident in which Mr. Lazarevic was acting as a

24 translator that you believed he was obstructing your work?

25 A. Yes. Much later on, because he would come along with these local

Page 15390

1 authorities whom he interpreted to us, and came a time when we had another

2 meeting, and this time with another local official by the name of

3 Spanovic. And during the course of that meeting, I got a hint from my

4 other local interpreters that we are not getting the interpretation as the

5 speaker was talking. And that, of course, was serious, because we relied

6 on accurate interpretation from the speaker.

7 As soon as I heard that, I notified the sector commander who was

8 part of the meeting that this was happening, and we stopped the meeting

9 altogether.

10 Q. Before we leave this area, one final question: Regarding the

11 arrest of Mrs. Kulenovic, did you come to learn at some point that

12 Mr. Lazarevic was behind her arrest?

13 A. Yes. This arrest of a staff member of the United Nations we

14 consider normally as a very serious matter, and I had to do something

15 about it, and I did raise a concern over this with another official, and

16 that course of that meeting where I was lodging our displeasure on the

17 local officials, I learned that he was behind this, and the officials

18 themselves, the local officials themselves, told me it's not their doing.

19 He was the instigator

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Groome, let's me ask Mr. Kirudja a question.

21 Mrs. Kulenovic was at the police station when you went there, and then I

22 think you said you had her transported.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did you receive any objections to that? Were

25 they cooperative?

Page 15391

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for the question. One, I

2 didn't need their acquiescence in that transfer, because all we did was

3 put her in our own vehicles and transfer her across into Bihac, which is

4 out -- which was outside their jurisdiction.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: But I still don't understand. I mean, was she in

6 the custody of the police station?

7 THE WITNESS: Yes. She had temporarily -- as soon as I went there

8 to complain, they had released her temporarily.


10 THE WITNESS: -- during the time when I was making my complaint.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

12 THE WITNESS: You're welcome.


14 Q. Mr. Kirudja, I want to draw your attention now to a meeting on the

15 13th of May, 1992. On that day, had you arranged a meeting with Mile

16 Paspalj, the then president of the RSK parliament?

17 A. Yes. That is what I meant when I said I did make a complaint to

18 some local officials on this matter. It was in that context that I met

19 with Mile Paspalj.

20 Q. And did you arrange the meeting?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. And was it your intention to meet with Mile Paspalj alone?

23 A. Yes. For the simple reason that Mr. Slobodan Lazarevic was

24 working with the military and civil officials in Kordun. Mr. Paspalj was

25 a resident of Glina in an area where they did not have a jurisdiction, and

Page 15392

1 I wanted a neutral person to lodge the complaint into.

2 Q. Did anybody show up at this meeting --

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. -- other than Mr. Paspalj?

5 A. Yes. To my surprise, Toso Paic showed up in the meeting that took

6 place in Glina.

7 Q. Now, did you lodge your complaint with Mr. Paspalj?

8 A. Yes. I proceeded to make him understand the nature of my

9 complaint and in full.

10 Q. And did he respond to you?

11 A. No. Mr. Toso Paic was the one who responded to me. Mr. Paspalj

12 just listened.

13 Q. And what did Toso Paic say to you?

14 A. He sought, as best I remember, he sought now to allay my charges

15 that this was a hostile act against the UN operation. He sought to reduce

16 the gravity of that charge by saying this was a misunderstanding, that the

17 charge about restrictions that we felt coming through them, was it

18 intentional? It was specifically on the charge of taking UN people in

19 areas that are not authorised by them. He said, "No. We didn't mean to

20 obstruct your freedom of movement. We just wanted to protect you from

21 going into areas where there are mines."

22 Q. After that meeting, did Toso Paic come see you again that same

23 day?

24 A. Yes. The meeting ended, and I returned to my office in Topusko.

25 And now also later he showed up there, accompanied by the same chief of

Page 15393

1 police who had arrested Mrs. Indira Kulenovic, Djuro Skaljac, and wanted

2 to talk about the subject all again.

3 Q. And did he indicate to you anything about Mr. Lazarevic's position

4 or role in the area?

5 A. Actually, he came candid. Not only that he said that

6 Mr. Lazarevic was the one behind it, he just told me she was not guilty of

7 any of these charges, but by then, I'd already taken her out.

8 Q. And what did he say about the role that Mr. Lazarevic had in the

9 area?

10 A. He said that from now on, there will be new liaison officers

11 dealing with you as the UN. And that was an allusion to the liaison

12 officers that I was using at the time that were attached to the JNA, and

13 that Mr. Lazarevic himself was not representing himself as a liaison

14 person.

15 Q. And who did he say he was representing as a liaison officer?

16 A. A commander of Kordun, a second colonel, Cedo Bulat.

17 Q. Now the name Paic is ordinarily spelled P-A-J-I-C. Did Toso Paic

18 indicate to you that his name was spelled somewhat differently than that?

19 A. Yes. That "J" is dropped when he spelled his own name; just

20 P-A-I-C.

21 Q. Now, during the time that you were working to implement the Vance

22 Plan, did it become clear to you that the Croatian side and the Croat-Serb

23 side viewed the plan or had different interpretations of the plan?

24 A. Yes. This came very early, and it was quite a serious problem,

25 because Vance Plan had delineated opstina by opstina what constituted the

Page 15394

1 areas we had to deploy our UN assets. The Croats interpreted that to mean

2 if an opstina is named as part of that, then the civil boundaries of that

3 opstina - read the municipality - constituted the edge of the area where

4 we had our deployment, the area of the United Nations protected area.

5 That they marked in their maps as the edge of the sector.

6 On the Serb side, they did not read it that way. They read it

7 wherever they had taken the conflict to and formed what they called a

8 confrontation line, if you trace that sequence of the area where they were

9 facing Croats troop to troop, that is the edge of the area where the UN

10 had to deploy itself.

11 Q. Now, the difference between the areas, the opstina borders and the

12 foxholes and confrontation borders, did those areas of dispute get a

13 particular name?

14 A. Yes. The map drawn with one assumption or the other produced an

15 area of difference that became known as the pink zone.

16 Q. Now, during the course of your duties, did you have frequent

17 contact with the local Serb mayors in Sector North?

18 A. Yes, routine contact.

19 Q. And was there anything common about their view or their

20 expressions to you about what their desire was for the political structure

21 they wanted to live under?

22 A. There was almost a unison refrain that we heard at every meeting

23 regardless of the agenda; that the UN should understand what happened in

24 these areas was a conflict that resulted into the separation of us Serbs

25 from non-Serbs, and as soon as you understand that we Serbs now have to

Page 15395

1 live apart from these other Serbs in one country, the better the peace

2 will be restored in this area. And that refrain was heard time and time

3 again.

4 Q. Now, the transcript has recorded your last answer as "we Serbs now

5 have to live apart from the other Serbs in one country." Is that correct?

6 A. Yes. In one country, yes.

7 Q. And what was your response to when people would make this

8 suggestion to you?

9 A. Hearing it, there was something that didn't quite click to me, and

10 I said to them, "What do you mean by the same country? Right here. We

11 are here now. Do you mean one country here or do you want to leave this

12 area? It doesn't look like you're going to leave this area and go to one

13 country where Serbs can all live together. There is a country called

14 Serbia. Are you going to leave?" They said, "No, we don't mean that. We

15 mean we want to live in one contiguous Serb area no matter where Serbs

16 are."

17 Q. Now, during your work, were you involved in -- I'm sorry. As part

18 of the Vance Plan, the JNA had agreed to withdraw from Croatia, correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And were you involved in meetings and negotiations regarding the

21 details of that withdrawal?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. I want to draw your attention to the 29th of April, 1992. Did you

24 have a meeting with General Nikovic regarding the withdrawal of the JNA

25 from Croatia?

Page 15396

1 A. Yes, we did. Can you please describe in substance what was said

2 during the course of that meeting.

3 A. In that meeting, the purpose was for General Nikovic to supply the

4 UN and the sector commander with his timetable and plans for demobilising,

5 as requested by the Vance Plan, all the military units that were deployed

6 in Sector North. And that was the discussion and we did get his plans,

7 complete with his schedule, what it is he was going to withdraw, and

8 where. We also got more than that. A kind of rationale, explanation of

9 certain things the way he thought, that should be happening.

10 Q. Could you please tell us, what was his rationale for -- what you

11 are about to say regarding his rationale. Please continue.

12 A. It came prefaced with something that caught my interest very much,

13 when he said, "You should understand there is a new reality taking shape

14 in the former Yugoslavia." And he said something to the effect that when

15 we are all done, there will be a new Yugoslavia containing seven

16 countries, and he proceeded to name them. He named them pretty much in

17 reflection of the republics that constituted the former Yugoslavia;

18 Croatia, Slovenia, and then he said Serbia and Montenegro will be one

19 Yugoslav, then he named the next country would be Serb Republic of Serbian

20 Krajina, Macedonia, and Bosnia and Herzegovina, without calling it

21 anything else. He just called it Bosnia-Herzegovina.

22 However, he went on to explain with regard to Bosnia, he expected

23 when all is done, 80 per cent of Bosnia - those were the words he used -

24 would be under the control of Serbs. Ninety-three per cent of what he

25 termed Serbian Krajina will also be under the control of Serbs.

Page 15397

1 Second general policy he explained was that the JNA that had

2 hitherto had control of the military in those areas, had orders to

3 withdraw all officials who were not native born either in Republic of

4 Serbian Krajina or in Bosnia and Herzegovina, with the exception of 13

5 officers, he said, that will remain. All others who were born outside

6 will have to leave the area after the demobilisation, except those who

7 were born there.

8 Q. Now, General Nikovic was the commander of the 10th Corps of the

9 JNA; is that correct?

10 A. Right.

11 Q. Had he calculated, if he were to remove these JNA soldiers, as

12 you've described, had he calculated how many JNA soldiers would remain

13 behind in the area to assume duties under some new or different form?

14 A. We didn't get into the number of soldiers. They got the formed

15 units that were to remain. Not the soldiers, the formed units, fighting

16 units. And he named at least of the units that would remain, along with

17 the weapons that would be left behind, as Territorial Defence forces?

18 MR. GROOME: I'd ask that Mr. Kirudja be shown now 378 tab 4. I

19 ask that it be placed on the overhead projector.

20 Q. I'd ask you, Mr. Kirudja, do you recognise this list that's now

21 before you?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And can you tell us what list --

24 A. It's a list of the units that were deployed in Sector North and

25 that also were part of his command and that which were to remain after

Page 15398












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 15399

1 demobilisation and the weapons that were to be -- the types of weapons

2 that were to be left behind.

3 MR. GROOME: I ask the director to zoom out a little bit so we can

4 see the entire list.

5 Q. Mr. Kirudja, I would ask you, was this list created from notes

6 that you had --

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. -- in your diaries?

9 A. Yes, it is.

10 Q. Now, I'd ask you to describe briefly to the Chamber, what was your

11 impression of General Nikovic regarding his integrity and his sincerity

12 for the execution or implementation of the Vance Plan?

13 A. A very impressive man. I kind of -- he gave me the impression of

14 a professional soldier, truly dedicated to his profession, trying to do a

15 very clear job and trying to answer as best as he can the request that he

16 demobilise his troops, and he meant it. He seemed very focused and meant

17 it.

18 Q. Did you also believe that he was genuine in his efforts to

19 demilitarise or collect the weapons in the area?

20 A. Pretty much so. And he spoke almost in very -- a soldier; very

21 definitive in what he wanted, very clear. In fact, now that you remind

22 me, he said something during that time that I was saying the policies that

23 he would leave behind, the words, "We intend to leave a clear and clean

24 situation administratively."

25 Q. And did General Nikovic in fact leave a clear and clean situation?

Page 15400

1 A. He intended to do that and in terms of the schedule that he

2 supplied about what will be demobilised, when it will be demobilised and

3 the result. He was that clear.

4 Q. Did anything prevent him from completing his task?

5 A. Yes. We met him again in the process of seeing this schedule

6 being implemented, and I believe might have been 10th of July when we met

7 him, to be received with what to us was a bombshell news that, "I am no

8 longer commander of the 10th Corps, I am called a retired general."

9 Q. Now, at any of your previous meetings with him, had he ever

10 discussed with you that he had planned to retire around this time?

11 A. No. And it didn't really stand to reason, because the schedule

12 itself had indicated that towards the end of May - two weeks or so

13 remained - when all of what he had said would be completed; namely, there

14 would have been a demobilisation, there would be a retirement of all the

15 officers not born there, and he was from Montenegro himself, so it didn't

16 quite add up that he is now a retired general two or three weeks before

17 the demobilisation plan that had he announced to us was to take place.

18 Q. Based on your conversation with him, did you form an impression as

19 to whether his retirement was a voluntary act or a forced act?

20 A. It was unmistakably something that he himself didn't expect.

21 Therefore, it would come into the category that it was a premature

22 termination of his role in the area.

23 Q. Now, at some point the JNA did formally withdraw from Sector

24 North. What I'd ask you to do at this stage, can you please compare or

25 describe for the Chamber, or compare for the Chamber what the command

Page 15401

1 structure -- how did the JNA exist prior to withdrawal, and what was left

2 after they withdrew?

3 A. Again focusing in Sector North, when we arrived, the JNA was

4 organised in three command zones in that sector, and they had the names

5 Kordun and Banja and Lika, these military operational zones; Kordun,

6 Banja, and Lika. These operational zones existed before we arrived, and

7 after the demobilisation, they remained again distinct operational zones.

8 Taking, for example, Kordun, there was no change. It was commanded by

9 Cedo Bulat before we arrived and, after demobilisation, it remained under

10 the command of Cedo Bulat. So pretty much, other than the name JNA

11 disappearing, the command zones and many of the individuals involved in it

12 remained pretty much the same.

13 Q. And would it be fair to say that by this time you were able to

14 recognise individuals that you would have contact with that were formerly

15 members of the JNA?

16 A. Yes, I recognised many of these individuals as long as they

17 wielded authority in the area.

18 Q. And did you see many of those individuals after the JNA formally

19 withdrew?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. This new force that remained after the JNA withdrew, was it

22 significantly smaller than the JNA?

23 A. I'm not sure whether you mean smaller by the total number of

24 soldiers in there or the structure.

25 Q. Let's take the first part. In terms of the number of actual

Page 15402

1 troops, was it significantly reduced?

2 A. That would be difficult for me to give you a definitive answer

3 precisely because of the question you asked earlier about demobilisation,

4 that were supposed to be demobilised under the Vance Plan. So that would

5 pose a problem in terms of how many numbers, because whatever numbers they

6 were, they were supposed to be demobilised, and they were demobilised a

7 little later, in May.

8 Q. How about the second part in terms of size of the command

9 structure?

10 A. No, that did not change.

11 Q. In your dealings with this force that was left behind afterwards,

12 what was the name of this force as it was represented to you?

13 A. They went by the same names they used to go. If it is in Kordun,

14 it was the Kordun command. If it was in Banja, it was Banja. Banja had

15 their headquarters in Petrinje, the command was in Petrinje. Kordun was

16 commanded in Kordun in and around Topusko and Vrginmost.

17 Q. How was the entire force referred to?

18 A. They at certain points began to refer -- later not --

19 progressively became known as the army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

20 Q. Did you ever hear the term "Territorial Defence Force" used?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And when was that used and what was it used to refer to?

23 A. It was used very early in the Vance Plan demobilisation because of

24 the Serbs' intent on signalling to us the need to defend their territory

25 and therefore they would not fulfil that requirement as quickly or as

Page 15403

1 planned by Vance Plan, that requirement of demobilisation.

2 Q. Another witness has testified before this Chamber that this force

3 was referred to internally as the 21st Corps. In your dealings with this

4 force afterwards, did they ever refer to themselves to you as the 21st

5 Corps?

6 A. No, not in this particular sector.

7 Q. Were you familiar with Colonel Bulat's headquarters or commands?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did he have more than one?

10 A. Yes. I had the opportunity to be in those commands as we

11 discussed matters.

12 Q. Would you be able to describe one of them as his primary

13 headquarters or command?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And where was that located?

16 A. Not far from our own headquarters in Topusko. In a wooded hilltop

17 behind the hotel.

18 Q. And can you give us some idea about how many times you were in

19 that office?

20 A. Many, many times; I can't count.

21 Q. Did you ever become aware that in that office there were a number

22 of special phones or hotlines?

23 A. Yes. This one was easy for us to be drawn to our attention

24 because general to general, meaning the sector commanders speaking to

25 Bulat, military officials did request each other, Where can I reach you in

Page 15404

1 case of emergency or something? And they say, There is a hotline. You

2 can call me on this hotline. So I knew they had some lines called

3 hotlines where the general commanding the troops could reach them if they

4 wanted to reach them.

5 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge regarding where the other phone

6 was on the other side of that hotline?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did Colonel Bulat also have a headquarters in Petrova Gora?

9 A. Yes. That's a wooded forest behind there.

10 Q. And did you visit what command centre?

11 A. Yes. Uh-huh.

12 Q. Can you briefly describe what that centre was like.

13 A. It was a very curious place because it's hard to even find where

14 it is. It goes back to the Second World War, and it's underground, and

15 this is a place they had the pleasure of showing to me and telling me even

16 the Germans couldn't find them during the Second World War if they wanted

17 to find them.

18 Q. Were you taken in to some portion of the underground facility

19 there?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, in the course of your duties and attempts to implement the

22 Vance Plan, did you come to believe that there was a significant loophole

23 in the design of the plan?

24 A. It was very, very obvious and clear and a source of a lot of

25 frustration for us.

Page 15405

1 Q. Could you please describe to the Chamber what that loophole was.

2 A. The Vance Plan essentially said, We want to have these UN

3 protected areas free of all military fighting forces except police for the

4 normal law and order. The local Serbs in that area saw that loophole and

5 transformed what for all practical purposes were armed -- would be armed

6 fighting forces in camouflage uniforms, they went about to transform them

7 to local police forces, from the green colours of the camouflage colours

8 of the military to the blue colours of the militia or police, painting

9 APCs into blue colours of the police, things like that.

10 Q. Now, when you say "APCs," you mean armoured personnel carriers?

11 A. Right.

12 Q. So are you saying that armoured personnel carriers that you saw

13 green at one stage, you later saw the same vehicles now painted blue?

14 A. When you say the same vehicles, you don't mean that I checked the

15 licence plate and make sure it is the same, but if you went into an area

16 where there used to be just a police station with no APCs, now you find

17 they have APCs painted blue colour. That didn't come from outside. The

18 only other place where the APCs were was in the military area. If you

19 mean that way.

20 Q. Now, you told us earlier that the Vance Plan envisaged that local

21 police would carry light arms.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. The arms that you saw these military people turned police

24 officers, the arms that you saw them carrying, was that in compliance with

25 the dictates of the Vance Plan?

Page 15406

1 A. There is a time sequence involving your question. Yes, at certain

2 times you saw that, but the time sequence would have been -- we would

3 first try and have those equipment contained in the UN areas, and a

4 certain point the Serbs took them all back and then they're in the hands

5 of the police.

6 Q. Well, let me ask you, when was it that you were successfully able

7 to bring the arms in and place them in a contained area under the security

8 of the UN?

9 A. Sometime between July and August that was achieved that the

10 weapons were laid down and put under UN control, double control with the

11 Serbs and the UN controlling them. And they were demobilised from

12 camouflage uniform.

13 Q. Now, this is July or August of 1992?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. How long did they remain -- first let me ask you, the containment

16 process, did that involve a system where it required two keys to unlock

17 them; a key held by the UN and a key held by local Serbs?

18 A. Correct. That's the Vance Plan.

19 Q. Did there come a time -- or you've described a time when those

20 weapons were taken out. When was that?

21 A. They remained there until about January of 1993.

22 Q. And were they taken out with the permission of the United Nations?

23 A. No. It was as a result of the first of a number of actions taken

24 on the other side by the Croats, and that was the action I'm referring to

25 of re-taking of Maslenica, a bridge part joining Dalmatia. As soon as the

Page 15407

1 Croats made that offensive, the Serbs went back and overran all that

2 equipment, and they took them all out from storage.

3 Q. Now, you were beginning to describe for us the weapons that the

4 police were carrying. Can you please now connect these events to that.

5 A. Yes. As soon as that happened, therefore, whether they were

6 wearing blue uniform or not, they were carrying the long weapons clearly

7 not allowed under the Vance Plan.

8 Q. I want to draw your attention now to a particular area, the area

9 of Bihac in Bosnia. In the course of your duties in Sector North, did you

10 become aware of events that were occurring in Bihac, Bosnia?

11 A. Yes. And pretty early, because in the earlier questions you did

12 understand we had to go to Bihac where we had negotiation, and that was a

13 normal situation. Pretty much it became a source of conflict, and in that

14 pocket we called Bihac pocket, in time, became a source of a stream of

15 refugees escaping.

16 Q. Can you briefly tell us what was occurring -- when things did

17 develop in Bihac. Can you tell us when that happened and what occurred in

18 Bihac.

19 A. We got basically the first inkling all was not well in Bosnia

20 pretty early in April. And in fact, it was at all times in a convoy

21 involving General Nambiar in his first visit into the sector. He had

22 arrived by air into Bihac, and we had a convoy to try to get him in, and

23 that's when we started seeing roadblocks into the area unexpectedly, all

24 over the place. Before that, there was normalcy completely. The whole

25 area was normal. From there on, those roadblocks and the conflict between

Page 15408












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 15409

1 the Muslims and the Serbs in that area began to intensify.

2 Q. Can you describe for us what the situation in Bihac was in May of

3 1992.

4 A. They come in April and by May it was rather -- the first notice we

5 got had to do with the request for assistance because Bihac also had one

6 of the largest hospitals in the area, and people asking for help because

7 they felt they cannot get all the supplies they needed in the hospital.

8 The humanitarian supplies were coming short. And we got all these kind of

9 indications that we needed help in that area.

10 Q. What was the predominant ethnicity of Bihac?

11 A. The Bihac pocket, what we refer to as the Bihac pocket in that map

12 that I showed, almost half of that international border was, on the

13 opposite side of the border, was predominantly Muslim. All the way to

14 certain part where the opstina of Dvor begins and continues on the left.

15 So that pocket, up to a certain point, was predominantly Muslim.

16 Q. Now, when the JNA withdrew from this area, did it do anything in

17 relation to the airport?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What did it do?

20 A. It was clear about 15th of May, I believe, around that time, give

21 or take a day, the airport was blown up.

22 Q. And that was blown up by whom?

23 A. The JNA.

24 Q. Did any of the predominantly Serb areas that you were aware of, or

25 in control of the Serbs, were you aware of any other airports in those

Page 15410

1 areas being blown up by the JNA as they withdrew?

2 A. No. This one was the only area that I was informed by UNMOs. We

3 had an UNMO observation point there.

4 Q. And by "UNMOs," you mean United Nations Military Observers?

5 A. Yes, located in Bihac.

6 Q. I want to ask you to take a look at 378, tab 6, and ask you is

7 this a report that you made regarding the situation in Bihac?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. I'd ask that the second page of that be placed on the overhead

10 projector. And I would draw your attention to paragraph 2.

11 Did you, in your report, indicate that the situation had

12 deteriorated so much that both the ICRC and the UNHCR had ceased

13 operations?

14 A. Paragraph 2? Beg your pardon?

15 Q. Yes.

16 A. Paragraph 2. Yes.

17 Q. Did you, in paragraph 4, report some sensational unverified claims

18 by Serbs of atrocities committed by Muslims, and you believed that these

19 claims were a concerted action by Serb leaders in both Croatia and Bosnia

20 to isolate local Serbs? Did you report that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you also in that report indicate that Serbs had retreated from

23 the town of Bihac, leaving mostly Muslims behind and that the Serbs in the

24 hills surrounding the town controlled the main road and strategic points

25 and that in recent days before this report the town had been shelled from

Page 15411

1 these vantage points?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. I'm going to ask you to read what you wrote in paragraph 9 of this

4 report.

5 A. Paragraph 9 and I quote: "Stories coming from Bihac and the

6 surrounding Bosnia opstinas of Velika Kladusa, Cazin, Bosanski Novi and

7 Bosanski Krupa thus paint a gloomy picture similar to the one in Sarajevo

8 and Mostar. There are fears that behind the border, the mountains and the

9 forest, unspeakable atrocities may be unfolding. This message is sent in

10 the hope that an alert could be relayed to authorities with the competence

11 to begin to address the problem before it is too late for the desperate

12 people in the area. Such an action could begin with a relief operation

13 for Bihac..."

14 Q. That's sufficient, Mr. Kirudja. And what is the date of this memo

15 or report?

16 A. This report is dated 16th of -- yes. It's written there in

17 French. 16th -- that has to be August. The front page.

18 Q. I'd draw your attention to the second page of the exhibit, the

19 first page of the memorandum.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. There's a date at the top of that. Does that --

22 A. Yes. 16 June. I'm sorry.

23 Q. Of what year?

24 A. 1992.

25 Q. Did there come a time in your tenure --

Page 15412

1 MR. GROOME: We can take back the exhibit. Thank you. Actually,

2 I'd ask that tab 5 of Prosecution Exhibit 378 be placed on the overhead

3 projector.

4 Q. Mr. Kirudja, during your tenure, did you become aware of certain

5 activity occurring in Bosnia which we now call ethnic cleansing?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Before I ask you specific details about specific instances, I

8 would ask you just to describe generally what you learned and the

9 circumstances under which you learned it.

10 A. Normally, we would go about doing what I describe as the mandate

11 under the Vance Plan, and in so doing in that course, events would begin

12 to surprise us, and such a surprise occurred particularly in that part

13 where the Serbs controlled both sides of the border, meaning in the Sector

14 North, the opstina, the mayor, and the chief of police, across the border,

15 the international border, on the other side he was also facing another

16 Serb municipality. Serb controlled. That's what I meant; Serb

17 controlled, mayor, police. And that surprise came when we began to see

18 requests -- first a trickle of people escaping and then a request from the

19 UN which for all intents and purposes seems to want to recruit us to help

20 them move massive numbers of people from one -- from their villages out

21 through the sector into far away places, like Slovenia, Germany, or

22 Austria. And that, in retrospect, looked very, very troubling then and

23 now to us, that this was actually what we were being requested to do, help

24 in moving massive people from their homes.

25 Q. Now, Mr. Kirudja, I'd ask you to take a look at the overhead

Page 15413

1 projector, and is this a chart that was made in conjunction with you and

2 in consultation with your notebooks regarding or summarising the ethnic

3 cleansing in Bosnia that you became aware of?

4 MR. GROOME: And I would ask the director to please focus on the

5 uppermost portion of the chart.

6 A. Yes, I recognise that summary beginning on 26 of May, from Dvor,

7 ending on 22nd of July on top of the chart, as you referred to. I

8 recognise that.

9 Q. Okay. We'll leave that on the overhead so those of us unfamiliar

10 with this complicated set of facts may rely on it if necessary, but I want

11 to draw your attention to the 26th of May, 1992. Did, as part of your

12 regular course of duties, did you visit the Croatian municipality of Dvor?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And did something unusual happen during that visit?

15 A. Yes. Outside the agenda that I was going to discuss, the mayor of

16 Dvor stopped to make a request of me that sounded surprising.

17 Q. And what was that request?

18 A. He requested -- first he started with an announcement that he and

19 his counterpart in the municipality of Bosanski Novi, across the border,

20 had agreed to transport 5.000 people from Bosanski Novi to pass through

21 Sector North to a destination they called Austria or Slovenia. So that

22 was the announcement. The demand was, one, we in the sector should and

23 could provide a film crew to film the transit of these people across the

24 Serb-controlled area specifically to document that they passed through

25 safely and did not remain in the Serb-controlled areas.

Page 15414

1 The second demand was we provide through the ICRC presence and our

2 humanitarian presence, the backing, logistical backing to make sure this

3 event goes without any trauma with the people involved.

4 Q. What was the name of this mayor from Dvor?

5 A. The mayor from Dvor at that time on that specific date was

6 Mr. Borojevic.

7 Q. And did he indicate to you whether or not this group of 5.000

8 people were leaving voluntarily or were being forced to leave?

9 A. Actually, to my surprise, he told me they are all leaving

10 voluntarily.

11 Q. What was your response to this request?

12 A. First, there was something unnatural and counter-intuitive about

13 that and I told him so. I asked him, one, who are these people? He said

14 they're all Muslims. I said but you are the mayor of Dvor, it is in part

15 of the UN, and they are coming from another country and you understand

16 Bosnia is a different jurisdiction, you don't have authority there

17 yourself, and you want them to leave, and you tell me they are leaving

18 voluntarily. That's third-hand information and it doesn't sound natural.

19 Are they leaving their homes? Yes. How do people leave the natural

20 comfort of their homes voluntarily? And he was stuck there because he

21 realised that I didn't believe that.

22 Q. And what happened after that?

23 A. Because we were meeting not far from his office, the next thing I

24 know, he had run into his office and was holding the phone and said, "Here

25 is the mayor of Bosanski Novi. If you don't believe, talk to him."

Page 15415

1 Q. And what was the name of the mayor of Bosanski Novi at that time?

2 A. Later on, the full name became clear, not at that point. His name

3 was Radomir Pasic.

4 Q. And what was his ethnicity?

5 A. A Serb.

6 Q. Now, did you speak to the mayor of Bosanski Novi on the phone?

7 A. No. At that moment, no. I told both the mayor that I wasn't

8 really going to do that at that moment.

9 Q. What happened then?

10 A. I want to consult my notes because I know something was there.

11 Q. Okay. Please do.

12 A. Remind me of that date again.

13 Q. The 26th of May, 1992.

14 A. Yes. On that day, something he also said to me that stuck to my

15 mind when I asked him, "You have no jurisdiction. You are talking to me

16 from Dvor about Bosanski Novi. How come you're involved and why it is

17 so?" And that's when he said to me something to the extent, "There is a

18 new government in Bosanski Novi which is a part of --" and I quote --

19 "Serbian Republic of BiH."

20 Q. Had you ever heard the term "Serbian Republic of BiH" before?

21 A. No. And not even from General Nikovic who was telling us of the

22 new reality. He had never used that term. That's the first time I heard

23 it.

24 Q. What happened next? I'm sorry. Before we leave this meeting:

25 After leaving the meeting, did you have an opportunity to reflect on it

Page 15416

1 and did you draw some conclusions about what you were being asked to do?

2 A. Yes. Something I alluded to earlier. Part of the reason I wouldn't

3 take the call from this mayor was what he was asking was of an enormous

4 implication, and he didn't seem even to himself to be bothered by that,

5 that he would be requesting the UN to participate in a movement of

6 thousands of people to leave their homes somewhere. And because it was --

7 it carried this non-sequitor, difficult to understand thing, I felt I was

8 -- I better be careful here because we're being recruited. It looks like

9 somebody's trying to recruit us to join in something we normally never do.

10 We don't create refugees, we help them. And that's what it seems like

11 we're being recruited; to create refugees.

12 Q. What happened next?

13 A. I left Dvor, and the next day, the very next day, around noon, I

14 was in my office in Topusko, and I'm told there is a delegation downstairs

15 that wanted to see you, and that turned out to be the mayor of Bosanski

16 Novi, accompanied by his executive council members and his chief of

17 police.

18 Q. What happened?

19 A. I asked them in and they came into my office and proceeded to

20 reprise the whole story that I had heard the day before, with greater

21 explanation because, obviously, he had been told that I didn't seem to

22 believe this claim that these people would be leaving voluntarily. So he

23 set out to give me greater detail about why they were leaving voluntarily.

24 Q. What did he say?

25 A. I summarised -- it boiled down to the Muslims, he said, didn't

Page 15417

1 want to fight in anybody's army, but they wouldn't also leave to areas

2 that were in Central Bosnia. They wanted to get out of the entire area.

3 And it also boiled down, upon inquiry and probing from me, that the

4 Muslims had refused to swear allegiance to this new Serbian Republic of

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina and wouldn't fight. So the only reason they were

6 leaving is because of what they called military weakness as a minority.

7 It's at that point when I said it doesn't sound to me then they're

8 leaving voluntarily, and then he said, and I quote, "Well, I admit they

9 are -- there has been pressure brought to bear on them" from what he

10 called Serbian military irregulars.

11 Q. Did you write an exact quote of what he said in your diary?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. For the sake of preciseness, I'd ask you to go to it and read it

14 for us.

15 A. He said, and I quote: "I admit that the Muslims have been under

16 pressure of armed Serbian irregulars."

17 Q. Drawing your attention to the 6th of June, 1992, did you receive a

18 report about something that was occurring at that time in the town or the

19 football stadium of Bosanski Novi?

20 A. Yes. As a routine in our office, a flash, what the military call

21 a flash report, had come into our situation room and it was brought to my

22 notice immediately, from the Danish contingent in Dvor, telling me they

23 had observed a number of people across.

24 Q. UN observation posts, were they identifiable and well-marked

25 posts?

Page 15418












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 15419

1 A. Yes. When we deploy UN observation posts and others, they are

2 clearly identifiable from a long distance, with a flag flying on them, the

3 blue flag. You wouldn't mistake them. They are clearly intended to be

4 noticed.

5 Q. The Danish contingent, it was observing, making its observations

6 from where?

7 A. They were in Dvor. And if you go to where this company was

8 located, across the river you can -- in the direction of Bosanski Novi,

9 you can see a football field through binoculars, and the soldiers were

10 looking through binoculars.

11 Q. So these soldiers are in Croatia, looking across the river into

12 Bosnia, into Bosanski Novi?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What did they report seeing?

15 A. They reported what they called a group of people being herded and

16 moved around in a football field.

17 Q. Did they approximate the number of people in that football field?

18 A. I'm not sure I remember the exact number. They were in hundreds

19 at that point when the flashpoint came in the football field.

20 Q. And were those people being detained in that football field?

21 A. They said they were being detained there and some being herded

22 into buses. And that's being detained in the football field.

23 Q. Did the report indicate anything peculiar about the way the people

24 had arranged themselves in the football stadium?

25 A. Yes. To our surprise, the report said the human beings being

Page 15420

1 huddled there had formed themselves into a SOS.

2 Q. They formed themselves into the letters SOS?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. That being the universal sign for help.

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if the Chamber is intending to break at

7 quarter to two today, this would be a good spot.

8 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We will break.

9 Yes, Mr. Milosevic. We're just about to adjourn. Yes. What is

10 it?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, I understand that. My

12 question is of a practical nature, and this is it: After Mr. Kirudja, I

13 have received this new list of witnesses, and the next one is Vesna

14 Bosanac. And a moment ago we heard from Mr. Nice that he's going to

15 include some sorts of transcripts which will shorten the time, cut down

16 the time. So I'd just like to know how long you're going to give me for

17 cross-examination of Vesna Bosanac and what your intentions are. I have

18 absolutely no idea how he's going to cut down the examination-in-chief,

19 and I have already said that this is geared towards reducing my time for

20 cross-examination, that that's what it's aimed it. So please tell me how

21 long I'll have.

22 JUDGE MAY: It will not reduce your time for cross-examination.

23 The fact that the evidence is being given by way of transcript will be

24 taken into account, and you will allowed a proper amount of time. You

25 have no fear on that score.

Page 15421

1 We will adjourn now. Monday morning, 9.00.

2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

3 to be reconvened on Monday, the 3rd day of February,

4 2003, at 9.00 a.m.