1 Monday, 17 March 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.

6 MR. NICE: I understand the video-conferencing equipment in

7 Dubrovnik is to some limited degree damaged. Therefore, it's not possible

8 to have the videolink at the moment with the witness General Marinovic.

9 He was spoken to yesterday by telephone in my presence and is fit and

10 prepared to give evidence. I'm informed that Registry staff in Dubrovnik

11 are pursuing an alternative set of equipment in Dubrovnik with the hope of

12 being able to start today.

13 In those circumstances, may we proceed with another witness, who's

14 a protected witness, but on the basis that if the video-conferencing

15 equipment becomes available, we should stop that witness and take the

16 opportunity to have the evidence of General Marinovic today, if at all

17 possible.

18 JUDGE MAY: Well, we shouldn't clearly waste time. It's not

19 satisfactory that the order of witnesses is changed, but this, one

20 understands, is beyond the controls of the Prosecution. So the proposal

21 is that we take this next witness who we have the details here. He was on

22 the list, I take it.

23 MR. NICE: Oh, certainly, yes.

24 JUDGE MAY: He was the next one on the list.

25 MR. NICE: I'm informed, incidentally, that the Sarajevo

1 video-conferencing equipment is separate from the travelling equipment and

2 is therefore likely to be functioning whatever the outcome of today's

3 efforts may be.

4 JUDGE MAY: So we can take -- how long is this current witness --

5 this proposed new witness likely to be in chief?

6 MR. NICE: It's said by Mr. Groome about an hour and a half.

7 JUDGE MAY: Hour and a half. So we could hear this witness and

8 then review the position.

9 MR. NICE: Hear him in chief, maybe.

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

11 MR. NICE: I think from the figure of the general as revealed on

12 the telephone yesterday, he will certainly be capable of answering

13 questions for an hour. He may well be, as was indicated in earlier

14 applications, willing and able to go a little longer than that, so it

15 would be wise to make the maximum possible use today of any

16 video-conferencing time.

17 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

18 MR. NICE: On the subject of witnesses, to give the earliest

19 advanced notice, a witness listed for this week was B-97. I do not intend

20 to call that witness so that there may be further advancing of witnesses

21 or substitution of witnesses to fill that gap, especially if the gap is

22 enlarged by the inability to call General Marinovic today.

23 JUDGE MAY: The other issue is, I should tell you, that we ought

24 to go on with, at some stage, with the Rule 92 bis proposed witnesses and

25 also the transcripts in the Croatia case.

1 MR. NICE: We agree and we thought about that at our discussions

2 this morning, but of course Mr. Kay isn't here today. So that if we can't

3 do video-conferencing and if we finish this witness, and there's no reason

4 to extend the witness simply because there is time available, then there

5 may come a time at the end of today when we could be pushed to find

6 something to fill the time, but I'll do my best to ensure that we can.

7 JUDGE MAY: Very well, we'll hear the witness in chief and then

8 review the position.

9 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution calls Prosecution

10 witness B-1738. I would note for the Chamber that this witness, pursuant

11 to an order from the Chamber, has been granted voice and facial distortion

12 as well as a pseudonym. There will be one new binder of exhibits, and it

13 would be possible to have a number assigned at this juncture.

14 THE REGISTRAR: The next number will be P411.

15 MR. GROOME: And if I might note for the Chamber, tab 4 in your

16 binders is empty. Because the witness has been accelerated, that exhibit

17 was not available at this moment. It will be available in an hour or two.

18 I will be requesting leave to put that -- it's a photograph, to put that

19 photograph to the witness on re-examination if it is not available before

20 I conclude my examination.

21 [The witness entered court]

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

24 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

25 JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.

1 WITNESS: WITNESS B-1738

2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

4 MR. GROOME: I'd ask that we begin by showing the witness

5 Prosecution Exhibit 411, tab 1. This is an exhibit we will be tendering

6 under seal so I would ask that it not be placed on the overhead projector.

7 Examined by Mr. Groome:

8 Q. Sir, I would ask you to take a look at that document, and first I

9 would ask you, is that your name on the first line of the table that's

10 indicated on that document?

11 A. Yes, it is.

12 Q. And is that your date of birth directly under your name?

13 A. Yes, it is.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MR. GROOME: I've finished with the exhibit.

16 I would note for the Chamber that in order to attempt to have as

17 much of this testimony in open session, the witness will refer to several

18 locations and people by the terms listed on this document rather than the

19 actual location or the actual name of the person.

20 Q. Sir, I'd ask you to begin your testimony this morning by

21 describing for the Chamber, briefly, your educational background.

22 A. I have completed eight years of elementary school and three years

23 of secondary school.

24 Q. In your secondary school, how many different subjects did you

25 study?

1 A. Two streams of subjects.

2 Q. Can you describe the first subject that you studied and whether or

3 not you completed your course of study in that particular area.

4 A. The first was the police section, which I did not complete.

5 Q. Why did you not complete your studies in the police field?

6 A. I had some problems on an ethnic basis, and I got into a fight

7 with several fellow pupils who were Croats by ethnicity.

8 Q. And what is your ethnicity, sir?

9 A. I'm a Serb.

10 Q. After not completing your police studies, did you then move on to

11 another pursuit?

12 A. Yes, I did. I continued in a school for truck drivers in my own

13 town.

14 Q. Was the town that you were -- you grew up in and attended school,

15 was that in Croatia?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did there come a time when you left Croatia and went to stay with

18 your grandmother who lived in a place in Bosnia?

19 A. Yes. That was at the beginning of the summer of 1991.

20 Q. And why is it that you left Croatia and went to live with your

21 grandmother in Bosnia?

22 A. Once again, I had problems on an ethnic basis in my town.

23 Q. Can you describe what, if any -- what was the situation in the

24 village in which your grandmother lived, what was the situation between

25 the different ethnic groups in Bosnia at that time?

1 A. As far as I know, it was normal.

2 Q. Did there come a time when you returned to your hometown?

3 A. Yes; at the beginning of September of that same year.

4 Q. Can you describe the relationship or the conditions between the

5 different ethnic groups in your hometown in Croatia when you returned.

6 A. The situation was difficult, and there was shooting too.

7 Q. Because of the situation as you found it when you returned, did

8 you go stay in a place that you thought offered you some measure of

9 safety?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. And can you tell us where it was you stayed?

12 A. I went to the barracks of the Yugoslav People's Army.

13 Q. How long did you remain at the barracks?

14 A. About two months.

15 Q. While there, were you assigned tasks to complete by members of the

16 Yugoslav People's Army?

17 A. To cooperate with the army and to defend the barracks.

18 Q. Did you consider yourself to have officially enlisted in the

19 Yugoslav People's Army during this time that you were at the barracks?

20 A. No.

21 Q. While you were in the barracks, did it come to pass that the

22 barracks was attacked by Croat forces?

23 A. Yes, on three occasions.

24 Q. Can you give the Chamber some indication of the severity of the

25 attacks.

1 A. Larger or smaller groups of armed civilians shot at the barracks.

2 Q. Did there come a time when you left the barracks?

3 A. Yes. I left sometime in November of that same year.

4 Q. And did you leave in response to or at the time of the third

5 attack on the barracks?

6 A. Yes, that's right. And it was agreed that the Croatian

7 authorities should release us.

8 Q. Without telling us the specific location of where you went, can

9 you tell us how far away was the location that you went to from the

10 barracks.

11 A. About 25 kilometres.

12 Q. On your way or during the time that you were leaving the barracks,

13 did something happen between yourself and a Croat man with a gun?

14 A. One of the Croats recognised me, and they thought that I was a

15 volunteer. One of them wanted to kill me, and he placed a gun into my

16 mouth. And they beat me up a bit. And their commander said that the

17 agreement was that everybody who was alive had to leave town.

18 Q. Now, you've testified that you went to a place about 25 kilometres

19 from the barracks. How long did you remain at that place?

20 A. Between 10 and 20 days.

21 Q. Where did you go after leaving that place?

22 A. Once again to Bosnia, to my grandmother's.

23 Q. And what was your purpose for going there?

24 A. I went there to find my closest family members because I didn't

25 know where they were actually.

1 Q. When you arrived at your grandmother's village, did you discover

2 where your immediate family was?

3 A. Nobody knew anything about their whereabouts.

4 Q. Not finding your family there, did you go somewhere else in an

5 attempt to find them?

6 A. I went to Serbia, to my uncle's house.

7 Q. Did you find them there?

8 A. No, I did not.

9 Q. Did there come a time while at your uncle's house that you learnt

10 that somebody was looking for you?

11 A. Yes, and it was the military police, in fact, of the Republic of

12 Serbia.

13 Q. What did you do when you learnt of this fact?

14 A. I went to another town to stay with a friend.

15 Q. And the friend that you went to stay with, would I be correct in

16 saying that it was in the vicinity of Belgrade in Serbia?

17 A. Yes, that's right.

18 Q. Did there come a time when you responded to a television

19 advertisement by Arkan for Arkan's Tigers?

20 A. Yes, that's right. I saw it -- an advertisement, a recruiting

21 advertisement on television, and I asked around to see what it was about

22 and decided to apply.

23 Q. Can you describe for the Chamber what you recall about the

24 television advertisement.

25 A. I can't remember exactly, but they showed Arkan with a tiger.

1 There were several soldiers with him, and they said a little bit about the

2 kind of training we would undergo.

3 Q. What is your best memory regarding what time or what date you see

4 this advertisement?

5 A. It was in January 1992.

6 Q. You've testified that you asked around for more information

7 regarding Arkan's Tigers. Did you learn or were you told what the pay was

8 for recruits to the Tigers?

9 A. I learned from friends that one could sign a contract for three,

10 six, or 12 months, and that the pay was 400 German marks a month.

11 Q. Did you consider that to be good pay?

12 A. In those days, it was rather good.

13 Q. Did you also learn that by serving as a member of Arkan's Tigers

14 you could satisfy your requirement for serving in the Yugoslav People's

15 Army?

16 A. Yes. That was also one of the reasons why I went there.

17 Q. When you said you went there, can you tell us where it was that

18 you went to enlist with Arkan's Tigers.

19 A. To Arkan's office close to the Red Star stadium.

20 Q. And was that in Belgrade?

21 A. Yes, it was.

22 Q. Can you describe for the Chamber what you observed when you

23 arrived at Arkan's office.

24 A. In front of the office there were two armed men in civilian

25 clothing. They stopped me and asked me what I wanted. I said I wanted to

1 enroll. And regarding two of my friends who had brought me there and who

2 did not want to enlist, they told them to go away.

3 I entered the office. A man was inside who took down my

4 particulars and said I would have to wait for Arkan himself.

5 Q. Did there come a time when Arkan himself arrived at the office?

6 A. About half an hour later he arrived.

7 Q. Did you have a conversation with Arkan?

8 A. Yes, I talked to him, and at first he said I was too young, but as

9 I had had some wartime experience, he agreed to accept me.

10 Q. Did he ask you to sign a contract?

11 A. I signed a contract for a three-month period.

12 Q. Can you describe for the Chamber what, if anything, you recall

13 about the terms of that contract.

14 A. I just remember that my particulars were noted and that it covered

15 a period of three months.

16 Q. Prior to signing this contract and agreeing to enter Arkan's

17 Tigers, had you at any time been a member of his political party?

18 A. No, never.

19 Q. Can you describe for the Chamber what occurred after you signed

20 this contract.

21 A. I went to his ice cream parlor and waited for transportation to

22 take me to Erdut. In the meantime, I met one of Arkan's bodyguards. And

23 talking to him, I learnt that there would be no pay.

24 Q. Were there other recruits that you met that day in Belgrade?

25 A. That day another two arrived.

1 Q. And did you eventually go to Erdut?

2 A. Yes, we did.

3 Q. Did you go to Erdut the same day that you went to Arkan's office

4 for the first time?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. How did you get to Erdut?

7 A. One of Arkan's drivers drove us there.

8 Q. Can you describe for the Chamber what you observed when you

9 arrived at Erdut.

10 A. The place looked like a military barracks. It was -- it had a

11 wire fence around it and several buildings inside.

12 Q. Can you describe what, if any, people you observed there?

13 A. There were perhaps several. Actually, they were all in uniform.

14 Q. Can you approximate the number of people that you saw at the camp

15 when you arrived that day?

16 A. During the line-up for supper, there were about 150 of us.

17 Q. Now, you've described for the Chamber that you saw the

18 advertisement in January of 1992. Can you approximate for us, when is it

19 that you arrive at Erdut camp for the first time?

20 A. At the beginning of February.

21 Q. How long were you engaged or did you remain at Erdut at that time

22 before you were deployed?

23 A. Just under two months.

24 Q. I'm going to ask you to describe for the Chamber the names of any

25 of the members of Arkan's Tigers that appeared to you to have a position

1 of authority within the organisation and the camp at Erdut.

2 A. The two leading ones had nicknames of Peja and Puki.

3 Q. Are there others that were there that came underneath these two

4 leading men?

5 A. Yes, certainly. There were quite a number of officers.

6 Q. Can you tell us any of the names that you can recall today?

7 A. Among the senior officers, no.

8 Q. At the camp, did the people present at the camp use their legal

9 names or did they use nicknames?

10 A. We mostly used our nicknames.

11 Q. I'd ask you at this time, would you describe to the Chamber the

12 types of training that was generally given to recruits at the Erdut camp.

13 A. The training was in discipline with a lot of running and training

14 in the use of all types of firearms and explosives.

15 Q. At what point during the course of the training were recruits

16 issued a firearm?

17 A. The recruits were issued a firearm as soon as they arrived at the

18 centre, and they had a weapon with them throughout.

19 Q. Can you describe for the Chamber the training camp at Erdut. How

20 far away is it from the nearest populated area or houses? Can you give

21 the Chamber some idea about where it was in respect to other locations in

22 Croatia.

23 A. Erdut was an inhabited place, a settlement.

24 Q. You testified that it was surrounded -- the training camp was

25 surrounded by a fence. Was it possible to look out of the fence and see

1 traffic passing by and people passing by?

2 A. Yes. And most of the time regarding the running, actually we ran

3 outside the camp.

4 Q. Did you -- would it have been possible for somebody on the outside

5 of the camp looking inside the camp to see you and the other recruits

6 carrying your weapons and engaging -- engaged in training?

7 A. In those days, anyone could see because fence was a wire fence,

8 and you could easily look through it.

9 Q. During the times that you ran outside the camp facility, during

10 any of those occasions were -- did the men carry their weapons with them?

11 A. At all times; during the day and the night.

12 Q. You spoke about training and discipline. Was there an occasion in

13 which a member, a fellow recruit, received harsh discipline for drinking

14 alcohol during the training?

15 A. Yes. He was caught drunk on guard duty, and he was tied to a

16 flagpole and he was beaten with some kind of a stick, baton.

17 Q. The recruits, were the recruits issued a standard uniform that

18 they all were required to wear?

19 A. Yes. All were dressed in the same manner.

20 Q. Can you please describe the uniform to the Chamber.

21 A. In those days, it was in one piece like an overall. It was

22 greyish-green in colour with the emblems on the sleeves. The caps were

23 green berets.

24 Q. Were recruits --

25 A. Or -- or black caps which you pull over, over your face like a

1 mask.

2 Q. On the uniform that you're describing, were there any patches to

3 identify those wearing the uniform as members of Arkan's Tigers?

4 A. Yes. There was the emblem of the Serbian Volunteer Guards and an

5 emblem with a tiger.

6 Q. You just said Serbian Volunteer Guards. Was that the official

7 name that Arkan's Tigers were known as?

8 A. One of the two official names.

9 Q. I'm going to ask you to look at the television screen in front of

10 you.

11 MR. GROOME: And I'd ask that perhaps the usher would switch it to

12 off, so we will use the Sanction system. This would be tabs 2 through 5

13 in Prosecution Exhibit 411 and will also be displayed on the computer

14 monitors for those and the Chamber who would like to -- my apologies.

15 Your Honour, with an earlier witness we began a patch book that is

16 Prosecution Exhibit 349. We are proposing to add these additional patches

17 as tabs 2 through 5 into that prior exhibit.

18 Q. Sir, I'd ask you to look at the computer monitor in front of you.

19 Do you recognise that patch?

20 A. Yes. That is the patch of Arkan's guards.

21 Q. Is that similar to the patch that you wore on your uniform?

22 A. Yes, only I'm not sure whether it was like this or whether it had

23 the background in black.

24 Q. I'm going to ask you to look at the next exhibit, and this would

25 be Prosecution 349, tab 3. Do you recognise this patch?

1 A. Yes. That is also the patch that is the same as the previous one,

2 only the background is in a different colour.

3 Q. I'm going to ask you to look at another patch. That would be

4 Prosecution Exhibit 349, tab 4. I'd ask you if you recognise this patch.

5 A. Yes. That also is the emblem of Arkan's Tigers, which was

6 attached on other side of the uniform.

7 Q. Sir, I will ask you about Mauzer's Panther unit in greater detail

8 later in your testimony, but I'm going to ask you to look at one final

9 patch and ask you if you recognise this patch. It's Prosecution Exhibit

10 349, tab 5.

11 A. Yes, it is the patch of the so-called Serbian National Guards

12 under the command of Mauzer.

13 Q. Did there come a time when you and a number of other recruits were

14 deployed for the first time out of Erdut?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you please tell us when that was.

17 A. On the 31st of March, 1992, in the evening.

18 Q. Can you please describe the circumstances surrounding how you

19 learned that you were being deployed on a particular mission.

20 A. Late in the evening, we had an alert and a line-up outside, and

21 later, Arkan selected 45 members for an operation, and I was one of those

22 selected.

23 Q. Were you told where you were going to?

24 A. No. None of us knew.

25 Q. Were there rumours among the men regarding where you might be

1 going to?

2 A. Yes. We discussed the possibility of going to Mostar amongst

3 ourselves.

4 Q. Prior to leaving Erdut, were the men, the 45 men that were

5 selected, were they issued with any additional equipment?

6 A. That same evening, we received each two hand grenades and two

7 hand-held rocket launchers known as Zoljas.

8 Q. Approximately what time of the day did you leave Erdut?

9 A. Around 2.00 or 3.00 a.m.

10 Q. Can you describe for the Chamber as best you can remember the path

11 -- I'm sorry. I withdraw that question.

12 How did you leave Erdut? In what type of vehicle?

13 A. We set off by bus, escorted by one or two jeeps.

14 Q. And best as you can recall, can you describe the journey or the

15 path that the bus took.

16 A. We crossed the border at Erdut into Serbia, and we travelled

17 through Serbia up to a small frontier crossing into Bosnia.

18 Q. Can you describe for the Chamber what locations in Serbia the bus

19 passed through?

20 A. I slept most of the journey, but I know for sure that we passed

21 through Odzaci, Backa Palanka, Badovinci.

22 Q. During the times that you were awake during this journey, would

23 you be able to characterise for the Chamber the type of road you were on;

24 were you on a primary road, a secondary road?

25 A. Normal roads used for public transport.

1 Q. Now, when you crossed from Croatia into Serbia, were there border

2 controls on the Serbian side of that border?

3 A. There were no controls.

4 Q. When you travelled from Serbia into Bosnia, were there any border

5 controls at that crossing?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Where did you go in Bosnia?

8 A. We crossed the Drina to the Popovi village not far from Bijeljina.

9 Q. How did you cross the Drina?

10 A. With a ferry that ferries cars. This was a public crossing point.

11 Q. What happened when you arrived in Popovi?

12 A. We met up with several members of Arkan's Guards and a number of

13 armed civilians, that is, local Serbs.

14 Q. And how long did you remain at Popovi?

15 A. Not long.

16 Q. Where did you go when you left Popovi?

17 A. To Bijeljina.

18 Q. And did the local Serbs that you saw in Popovi, did they go with

19 you?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. I want to return for a moment at the -- to the ferry crossing.

22 Were there any members of the police or military on the Serbian side of

23 the ferry crossing?

24 A. I'm not sure.

25 Q. How about on the Bosnian side?

1 A. Yes, there were some police there.

2 Q. Did the police on the Bosnian side stop the bus and check the

3 identities of yourself or any of the other men that were travelling into

4 Bosnia?

5 A. No.

6 Q. When did you learn that you were going to Bijeljina for the first

7 time?

8 A. I learnt when I got off the bus at Bijeljina.

9 Q. Where in the municipality of Bijeljina did you get off the bus?

10 A. A kilometre or a kilometre and a half away from the centre.

11 MR. GROOME: I'm going to ask that the witness now be shown

12 Prosecution Exhibit 411, tab 2. I'd ask that it be placed on the overhead

13 projector.

14 Q. Sir, I'd ask you to take -- first let me ask you this: Do you

15 recognise what's on the overhead projector to your left?

16 A. Yes. It is a map showing the route from Erdut to Bijeljina.

17 Q. Is that a map that you drew?

18 A. Yes, it is.

19 Q. I'd ask you to take the pointer, indicate Erdut, the place where

20 you started, and then just trace for the Chamber the path, as best you

21 recall, that you took to Bijeljina.

22 A. [Indicates]

23 Q. Please continue.

24 A. From Erdut via a place called Odzaci, Backa Palanka, and finally,

25 the crossing close to Badovinci, the crossing over the Drina River.

1 MR. GROOME: I would now ask that another map - and this would be

2 an enlarged copy of Prosecution Exhibit 326, page 29 - I'd ask that that

3 be placed on the overhead projector.

4 Q. Sir, do you recognise this map?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And what do you recognise it to be?

7 A. That is the border crossing between Badovinci and Popovo. It is

8 the place of Popovi where we met up with the rest of the group. And there

9 is Bijeljina, where there was a conflict.

10 Q. And is there -- did you also -- did you circle the locations on

11 this map?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. I'd ask you, for the sake of saving some time, can you point to

14 the location of Janja, which I will ask you about later in your

15 testimony.

16 A. [Indicates]

17 Q. Now, sir, could you approximate for us, in addition to the 45 men

18 that left Erdut, how many locals joined at Popovi?

19 A. At least ten.

20 Q. When you arrived in the -- in the town of Bijeljina and got off

21 the bus, can you describe what happened when you got off the bus.

22 A. We were told that terrorists in Bijeljina who were ethnic Muslims

23 were supposed to be found by us and possibly liquidated. We were divided

24 up into smaller groups in order to cover the entire town as soon as

25 possible.

1 Q. How many were in the group that you were subdivided into?

2 MR. GROOME: I'm sorry to the usher: We're finished with that

3 exhibit. My apologies.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Five, plus a local Serb who would

5 show us the way.

6 MR. GROOME: I'm going to ask that we briefly go into closed

7 session for the next question.

8 JUDGE MAY: Private session.

9 [Private session]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [Open session]

16 MR. GROOME:

17 Q. Sir, can you continue and tell us the path that your group -- or

18 what did your group do at this time?

19 A. My group and two other groups, we went in the direction of the bus

20 station, and we occupied it.

21 Q. Approximately what time of the day are we talking about now?

22 A. Between 5.00 and 5.30 a.m.

23 Q. Can you approximate the distance between where you got off the bus

24 and where the bus station was? How far did your group have to travel?

25 A. Well, we ran for about ten minutes at the most.

1 Q. Between the time you left the bus and the time you arrived at the

2 bus station, did you come under fire or meet any resistance to your entry

3 into the town?

4 A. Not my group.

5 Q. What did you observe when you arrived at the bus station?

6 A. Can you clarify that, please?

7 Q. Did you see any civilians on the streets of Bijeljina when you

8 were making your way to the bus station or at the bus station?

9 A. Well, after we had occupied the station, of course there were

10 civilians who were going out to work.

11 Q. And what, if anything, did your group do with respect to those

12 civilians?

13 A. We stopped civilians, and we put them into the waiting-room of the

14 bus station in order to protect them.

15 Q. And approximately how many civilians were gathered into the bus

16 station in Bijeljina?

17 A. Ten to 15 at the time when I was there.

18 Q. Was the bus station in Bijeljina, was it located in the centre of

19 the town or in the outskirts of the town?

20 A. Well, say about 200 metres away from the centre of town.

21 Q. Did there come a time when you observed a civilian being shot and

22 killed?

23 A. Yes. It was a civilian who didn't want to stop.

24 Q. Can you please describe your observations regarding that incident.

25 A. Well, my fellow combatants stopped all civilians. This particular

1 civilian didn't want to stop at the moment when he was being stopped. As

2 far as I managed to gather later, he had been a retarded person. They

3 shot at him because they thought he was trying to run away.

4 Q. Was the man armed?

5 A. No, as far as we managed to find out later, but he kept his hand

6 in his pocket. However, he had had physical problems with that hand.

7 Q. Did you later learn the ethnicity of this man?

8 A. Yes. He was a Serb.

9 Q. Around this time period, did members of the unit or the group that

10 you were with fire upon a business establishment, a cafe?

11 A. Yes. Our superior officer shot from a hand-held launcher at a

12 Muslim cafe called Cafe Istanbul.

13 Q. And where was this Cafe Istanbul located in relation to the bus

14 station?

15 A. On the other side of the road, or about 15 metres away.

16 Q. The transcript reads that you've described a hand-held launcher

17 being used to fire upon the Cafe Istanbul. Were these the hand-held

18 rocket launchers that you described were issued to the men prior to

19 leaving Erdut?

20 A. Yes. That's the weapons that we were issued before leaving Erdut.

21 Q. How many rockets altogether were fired into the Cafe Istanbul?

22 A. Five to seven.

23 MR. GROOME: I'd ask for a brief private session.

24 [Private session]

25 [redacted]

1 [redacted]

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4 [redacted]

5 [Open session]

6 MR. GROOME:

7 Q. Sir, what happened after this attack on the Cafe Istanbul?

8 A. We were supposed to advance further, towards the hospital.

9 Q. After arriving here in The Hague, were you asked to look at a

10 videotape that depicted or depicts the Cafe Istanbul?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I'm going to ask that you look at a video clip now, and I then

13 will ask you a few questions after it. It's approximately 40 seconds of

14 video.

15 MR. GROOME: I'd ask if that could be set up for the witness, and

16 when the director is ready, if he would please play it.

17 [Videotape played]

18 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] One of our wounded was here. It was

19 horrible. You'll see a bit later that all the pipes were bullet-riddled.

20 MR. GROOME: We can stop the video now. Thank you.

21 Q. Sir, the white building on the corner, do you recognise that

22 building?

23 A. Yes. That is the Cafe Istanbul.

24 Q. What happened after the attack on the Cafe Istanbul? What did you

25 and your portion of the group do?

1 A. We set out, passing the hotel, towards the park.

2 Q. And what happened when you entered the park?

3 A. I have to say first and foremost that I'm not sure whether we

4 entered the park on the first day of the attack or the second day of the

5 attack.

6 Q. The events that you've described up until this point, are you

7 certain that those events occurred on the first day of the attack?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And the events in the park, you're not certain whether it's the

10 first day or the second day; is that correct?

11 A. I'm not sure.

12 Q. Please continue with what happened in the park.

13 A. Just as we entered the park, shooting could be heard in town. We

14 noticed, among other things, that we were being shot at. We also noticed

15 that somebody was shooting at us from the water tower. Perhaps an hour

16 later, this stopped.

17 We passed through the park, and we reached a house. We spent some

18 time in the house until the gunfire abated.

19 Q. What happened then?

20 A. Then the road to the hospital was practically free. We occupied

21 the hospital. We searched it, and we placed our guards there.

22 Q. Did there come a time on the first day when members of Arkan's

23 unit took possession of cars belonging to some individuals in Bijeljina?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Approximately how many vehicles in all were taken that day?

1 A. About 40.

2 Q. And did those vehicles that were taken that day include a bus as

3 well as a new fire engine that belonged to the town of Bijeljina?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. From where were most of these vehicles taken?

6 A. Most of the cars were taken from in front of the house of a rich

7 Muslim who was involved in repairing vehicles. However, he was not

8 present. He had gone to Germany two days prior to the attack.

9 Q. Was your unit directed to that house by any particular person?

10 A. No, nobody directed our unit. However, the house was nearby, and

11 it was sort of on the way.

12 Q. At the time the vehicles were taken, was it known the ethnicity of

13 the owner of that house and establishment?

14 A. I myself did not know about it.

15 Q. Were you aware that other members of your unit did know the

16 ethnicity of that man at the time?

17 A. Perhaps only officers, because a civilian was with them, an ethnic

18 Serb.

19 Q. What was the ethnicity of the man who had all of these vehicles?

20 A. Muslim.

21 Q. What happened to these 40 vehicles?

22 A. The same evening, they were taken in the direction of Erdut.

23 Q. And did they travel together or individually back to Erdut?

24 A. Together, excluding the fire engine, which remained behind.

25 Q. And what was the path that was taken from Bijeljina back to Erdut

1 in Croatia?

2 A. Along the route depicted on the map that we looked at.

3 Q. The people who drove back to Erdut, were they only Arkan's Tigers

4 or did they include some of the locals?

5 A. Arkan's Tigers.

6 Q. In addition to the vehicles, was there any other property taken

7 and transported back to Erdut?

8 A. In the same house where the vehicles were found, several cartons

9 of cigarettes were found too, as well as detergent and some technical

10 equipment.

11 Q. You mentioned -- you mentioned going to the hospital. Are you

12 certain whether you went to the hospital on the first day or second day?

13 A. I'm certain that it was either on the first day or the second day,

14 but I think it was on the second day, rather.

15 Q. And can you describe what, if anything, was the conditions at the

16 hospital.

17 A. The conditions were quite normal. People were working normally.

18 We had two wounded men, though. I don't know whether there were any other

19 wounded persons.

20 Q. Were you aware of there being casualties in addition to the two

21 wounded men that were members of Arkan's Tigers?

22 A. At that time, no.

23 Q. Did you later learn how many casualties there were?

24 A. Yes, I did, approximately.

25 Q. And what was that approximate number?

1 A. Around 45.

2 Q. You've described an incident in the park during which you believed

3 that you were being fired upon. Prior to that event, did you believe that

4 you were under attack or meeting resistance before that?

5 A. No, not I myself.

6 Q. Are you able to approximate for us how long it took Arkan's Tigers

7 plus the local men that were with the group to secure the town?

8 A. From six to eight hours.

9 MR. GROOME: I'm going to ask that we go into private session for

10 the remainder of this morning's session because I'm going to ask some

11 questions that would reveal the identity of this witness.

12 [Private session]

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21 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

22 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

23 JUDGE MAY: We'll go into open session.

24 [Open session]

25 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.

1 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I understand the equipment won't be

2 available this morning. There's a possibility of some equipment being

3 available at 5.00 this afternoon or 4.00 or tomorrow. I haven't recently

4 been able to contact the witness to find out how he would feel about

5 giving evidence at either of those times. I gather --

6 JUDGE MAY: Let me interrupt to say that we -- we had notice of

7 the possibility of an evening sitting. One of our number can't make it

8 anyway, has his own arrangements, so that's not on even if it were

9 practical, which I rather doubt.

10 MR. NICE: I'm going to ask the witness, who is being extremely

11 cooperative, whether there's any possibility of his travelling the shorter

12 distance to Sarajevo. I don't know whether there is or not. I assume the

13 answer will be negative. At least I'll ask that question. And I think

14 I'd better liaise with Registry and your staff about re-ordering the

15 witnesses for the rest of the week. If Sarajevo is possible tomorrow for

16 that particular witness and this witness can be taken by some system on

17 Wednesday, that might be an alternative. Wait and see, I think. Though

18 it sounds as though definitely not today.

19 As to the balance of the time that would be available to us this

20 morning, I gather this witness will take in chief a little -- another 20

21 minutes or thereabouts. That would actually leave some time at the end of

22 the day. The only other witness who might be called isn't really ready.

23 I've made preparations, but I think it would probably be unfair on the

24 witness to have him called today. In any event, he may have a medical

25 appointment that he has to keep today, arising from a condition he

1 suffers. So it looks as though there may be a gap today or in any event

2 what would have been a gap but for the fact that we allow the evidence to

3 spread into it.

4 Not very satisfactory but I'm afraid nothing we can do about it.

5 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, are you in a position to cross-examine

6 this witness today or would you ask us to put that cross-examination back?

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will cross-examine him, yes.

8 JUDGE MAY: Well, that would take up the balance probably, at

9 least most of the day. I don't know if there are any administrative

10 matters that we could deal with apart from that.

11 MR. NICE: Leave me to work it out with Registry for the balance

12 of the day and I'll report back at the end of the day, if I can.

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Report back at the next break and we'll see how

14 we're getting on.

15 MR. NICE: The next break, yes.

16 JUDGE MAY: We'll see how we go from there. Yes. Let's have the

17 witness back.

18 MR. GROOME:

19 Q. Sir, I'm going to begin my next series of questions by asking you

20 to look at a photograph. It will be displayed on the TV monitor in front

21 of you. And if I could draw the rest of the Chamber's attention to

22 Prosecution Exhibit 411, tab 6.

23 Sir, I want you to focus on the man standing on the right-hand

24 side of the photograph, and my question to you is: Do you recognise the

25 uniform that that man is wearing?

1 A. The uniform belongs to Arkan's Guards.

2 Q. Do you recognise the item that is strapped across his back?

3 A. Yes. That's a hand-held rocket launcher of the Zolja type.

4 Q. And do you recognise the weapon in his right hand?

5 A. An automatic rifle manufactured in Yugoslavia.

6 Q. There is something black under his epaulette on the right-hand

7 side. Do you recognise what that is?

8 A. It's a cap, the so-called mask.

9 Q. Other than the items that you've described, you were not present

10 when this photograph was taken or recognise anything else in it; is that

11 correct?

12 A. No.

13 Q. I want to now draw your attention to an event. Did there come a

14 time when you were travelling as a member of Arkan's unit to Erdut when

15 you were stopped in Serbia by a member or members of the Yugoslav People's

16 Army?

17 A. Yes, about 15 days after the Bijeljina operation.

18 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'd ask that we go into private session

19 for the remainder of this portion of his testimony.

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

21 [Private session]

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14 [Open session]

15 MR. GROOME:

16 Q. Sir, to draw you back to Bijeljina, did there come a time early in

17 April when you learnt that some of the men from Arkan's unit that had been

18 involved in Bijeljina went somewhere else?

19 A. Yes. Part of the group went to Zvornik.

20 Q. After Bijeljina had been secured, was there discussion among

21 Arkan's group with respect to a village called Janja, a Muslim village

22 called Janja?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And what was -- can you describe in substance what was the

25 discussion regarding that village?

1 A. The discussion was that the inhabitants of Janja didn't want to go

2 to war, but they handed over their weapons of their own free will.

3 Q. Just drawing your attention once again to the group that went to

4 Zvornik. Were you aware of what the purpose of them travelling to Zvornik

5 was?

6 A. I did not know, but I believe it was the same as in Bijeljina.

7 Q. At some point, were the mosques in Bijeljina destroyed?

8 A. Yes, they were.

9 Q. Was that during or after the town had been secured by Arkan's men?

10 A. Afterwards?

11 MR. GROOME: I'm going to ask that the witness be shown

12 Prosecution Exhibit 411, and that is tab 8, and I'd ask that it be placed

13 on the overhead projector.

14 Q. Sir, I'd ask you to look at the exhibit that's on the projector on

15 the platform to your left. Do you recognise what that is?

16 A. Yes. It's a map of part of Bijeljina?

17 MR. GROOME: If I could ask the director to focus on the map. If

18 the director could please put on the overhead projector.

19 It seems we are experiencing some technical difficulty. There is

20 a map on the overhead projector, the ELMO. If we could have a view of

21 that, please.

22 Q. Sir, can you describe for us what is this map? Who drew this map?

23 A. This is part of Bijeljina, and I drew the map.

24 Q. Does it involve some of the locations you've testified regarding

25 this morning?

1 A. It shows almost all the localities that I discussed, yes.

2 Q. I'd ask you to now just point to the different locations that

3 you've marked on the map that are relevant to your testimony here this

4 morning. Please use the pointer. And you can look at the map as you

5 point.

6 A. We reached -- we came in on this road, from the direction of the

7 Popovi village. And in this area here, we had to go on foot up to the bus

8 station.

9 When we occupied the bus station, we shot at the Istanbul cafe.

10 After all this, we continued along this route which took us by the

11 hotel, through this park here, and there was shooting from the water tower

12 here at us. And this here is a house in which we spent about an hour

13 until the shooting died down, and then we continued along our route

14 towards the hospital.

15 Q. Sir, on this map is there an indication of the house where the 40

16 cars were taken from?

17 A. The house is located here, behind the hotel?

18 MR. GROOME: Thank you. I'm finished with that document.

19 I'm going to ask now that the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit

20 411, tab 7. I'd ask that the witness be given the Serbo-Croatian original

21 of this report, and the relevant portion will be displayed on the TV

22 monitors in English.

23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters kindly request that the witness

24 speak up, please.

25 MR. GROOME:

1 Q. Sir, in a little bit louder voice, could you please tell us, have

2 you seen the document before you? Have you seen it before today?

3 A. Yes, I have. I saw it two or three days ago.

4 Q. Does it report on some of the events -- or does it concern some

5 events in Bijeljina?

6 A. It does not concern the events in the war, but it does concern

7 certain things which the police undertook in Bijeljina.

8 Q. Were you in a position to have some personal knowledge about some

9 of the activities that the police undertook and some of the observations

10 they make contained in this report?

11 A. I only know that checkpoints were set up at the exits to the towns

12 and that a curfew was introduced which lasted the whole night.

13 Q. As you read that report, was there anything that you noticed that

14 was inaccurate, that you had personal knowledge was incorrect regarding

15 what the report says?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Around April of 1992, was there another paramilitary group

18 established called the Serbian National Guard?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you tell us, who was the person who established that

21 organisation?

22 A. Ljubisa Savic, nicknamed Mauzer.

23 Q. I'm going to ask you to look at the screen in front of you.

24 MR. GROOME: Your Honours, this would be tab 4 of Prosecution 411.

25 It was unavailable this morning. I will provide a copy to the Chamber

1 later today, but it will appear on the screen in front of you.

2 Q. Sir, I'd ask you to look at the screen in front of you. Do you

3 recognise who is depicted in this still taken from a video?

4 A. Yes. That's the man nicknamed Mauzer.

5 Q. Did a number of men from Arkan's Tigers transfer from Arkan's

6 Tigers over to Mauzer's Panthers?

7 A. Yes, they did.

8 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I now ask that we go into private

9 session for the remaining questions I have for this witness.

10 [Private session]

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12 [Open session]

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

14 JUDGE MAY: We missed that. There was no microphone.

15 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

16 Q. [Interpretation] You were born and you lived in Croatia, isn't

17 that right?

18 A. Could you please repeat?

19 Q. From the information I have, I have gathered that you are a Serb

20 from Croatia. You were born in Croatia.

21 A. Yes, that is right.

22 Q. You lived in a small town which, during the time of these events,

23 was not within the framework of the Republic of Serbian Krajina; is that

24 right?

25 A. Yes, that's right.

1 Q. At the beginning of this period that you are testifying about, you

2 said that you needed to join the newly formed Croatian army; isn't that

3 right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. However, I gathered that you had some rather unpleasant

6 experiences in that town in the course of the month of September 1991; is

7 that right?

8 A. And also in May and in September.

9 Q. I see. From May to September 1991.

10 A. In May and in September. In the meantime, I was in Bosnia.

11 Q. I see. You went to stay with relatives; is that right?

12 A. Yes, that's right.

13 Q. So in May, because of the unpleasantness you experienced, you left

14 the town, and then in September you returned and you came across the same

15 kind of problems; is that right?

16 A. Yes, that's right.

17 Q. But earlier on, as I was able to gather, you were mistreated by

18 people of your own age simply because you were a Serb, and they were

19 reproaching you for being a fan of the Red Star club; is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. But the Red Star was a football club that was the Yugoslav

22 champion, even a world champion for a period.

23 A. Yes, that's right.

24 Q. On page 2, second paragraph, you even say that you were attacked

25 by a group of Croatian youths and that you were exposed to various threats

1 simply because you were a Serb; is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. When did that happen?

4 A. I was attacked in May.

5 Q. 1991?

6 A. Yes, correct.

7 Q. And as far as I was able to gather from what you have said, you

8 reduced your contacts mainly to other Serbs; is that right?

9 A. Yes, that's right.

10 Q. Is it true that out of fear and because of the threats made

11 against you and because of various actions by extremists in your town you

12 decided to join the army in your town? Is that right?

13 A. Yes, that's right.

14 Q. However, when I say "the army," I'm referring to the JNA.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. However, when you went to the barracks in September 1991, you were

17 first arrested; is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And then in your town, you were in the army, nevertheless, for a

20 while, because in the examination-in-chief, you put it slightly

21 differently than is stated here in your statement, so I didn't quite

22 understand. I won't read the name of the town. "I decided to join the

23 JNA in ..." that town of yours it says here.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And since they took you into custody first and checked out what

1 was going on, and then on -- in paragraph 3 on page 2, you say you were

2 admitted into the army. That is what is stated in your statement.

3 A. Yes. They admitted me to join them.

4 Q. So I understand you were admitted in the army. If not, in what

5 capacity were you there if you were not a member of the army?

6 A. They issued me a weapon and a uniform, but they didn't register my

7 existence.

8 Q. How do you know that? How could they have issued you a weapon and

9 uniform without taking your name down? Why would the army do that?

10 A. They drafted a military booklet for me which to some extent

11 confirmed that I was employed there.

12 Q. What do you mean? What, did it confirm, to what extent, that you

13 were employed there?

14 A. Yes, correct.

15 Q. In what capacity were you employed there?

16 A. As a non-commissioned officer.

17 Q. I see. So you were a member of the army if you were a

18 non-commissioned officer.

19 A. Possibly. That military booklet was irregular.

20 Q. Why was it irregular?

21 A. Because I hadn't done my military service at all.

22 Q. But you could have joined the army as a volunteer. That is how

23 you serve. You serve in the barracks.

24 A. Possibly.

25 Q. Very well. Let's not waste time on that any more. It wasn't

1 clear to me whether you had been or not a member of the army. You

2 obviously were.

3 Now tell me very precisely, please, is it true that that barracks

4 was attacked by Croatian paramilitary forces?

5 A. Yes; on three occasions.

6 Q. During those three occasions during the two months that you were

7 in that barracks; is that right?

8 A. Yes, correct.

9 Q. And when you left then, virtually the entire JNA staff who had

10 been in the barracks left the barracks. So you left the barracks together

11 with all the other members of the JNA that you found there and that

12 abandoned the barracks; is that right?

13 A. Yes, it is.

14 Q. Is it true that the first time they attacked you with sidearms

15 only but that later on the attack was with tanks?

16 A. The first time with sidearms; the second time a police vehicle

17 with, I assume, an anti-aircraft gun attacked us; and the third time, the

18 army troops with tanks that had arrived from Zagreb.

19 Q. They surrounded the barracks then, and then the negotiations took

20 place for you to withdraw, to pull out from there but that you had to

21 leave your weapons there?

22 A. Yes, that's right. We had nothing to defend ourselves with.

23 Q. Tell me, for how long you were under a blockade until the

24 agreement was reached for you to pull out and to leave your weapons?

25 A. Throughout that two-month period that I was there, electricity was

1 cut. There was no water supply or food supplies could not be brought in.

2 And I think that the telephone lines were also cut but I'm not so sure

3 about that. There were radio communications.

4 Q. So you left a barracks that was surrounded and under a blockade

5 for a whole of two months until you pulled out of the barracks and left

6 your weapons; is that right?

7 A. It wasn't surrounded for all of two months.

8 Q. But it was blocked for two months.

9 A. Yes, it was.

10 Q. Very well. I gathered that upon leaving the barracks something

11 unpleasant occurred, that is, they put a pistol in your mouth and

12 threatened to kill you; is that right?

13 A. Yes, that's right.

14 Q. But then their officer said that the agreement was that all of you

15 should leave the barracks alive, and then they let you go too, as they did

16 the other JNA members; is that right?

17 A. Yes, that's right.

18 Q. Or, rather, they allowed you to pull out of the barracks

19 unhindered.

20 A. We were escorted by the Croatian police up until the exit from the

21 town.

22 Q. Since you were the -- a local inhabitant of that town, they

23 threatened to kill you if you ever returned to that town; is that right?

24 A. Yes, it is.

25 Q. Is the reason for your fleeing Croatia fear and the threat that

1 you received?

2 A. Yes, it was.

3 Q. And as far as I understand it from your statement, because of this

4 fear and the fact that you had to move out, you decided to enlist with the

5 Serbian volunteer guards.

6 A. Yes, because I could not enjoy the status of refugee in Serbia.

7 They wanted to send me back with the army to the front.

8 Q. So were you a deserter for the JNA at the time?

9 A. No.

10 Q. At one point during your examination-in-chief, you mentioned,

11 according to my notes, that you were being looked for by the military

12 police of Serbia, as you put it.

13 A. Yes. In the Red Cross, I was told that I had to register with the

14 army.

15 Q. But you mentioned the military police of Serbia. You know that

16 Serbia didn't have a military police as it didn't have an army. It could

17 only have been the military police of the JNA. Do you know that?

18 A. Yes, that's right. But the event occurred in Serbia.

19 Q. Yes. You were being looked for by the military police because you

20 were a member of the JNA when you withdrew from the town that you withdrew

21 from.

22 Very well. So your joining the Serbian Volunteer Guard, and your

23 later involvement in operations, so your participation in the war was

24 exclusively based on your personal decision; isn't that right?

25 A. Yes, it is.

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1 Q. Were you armed and did you join that combat unit prompted by

2 personal motives and not by any other outside influence or pressure or for

3 any other reason? Is that right?

4 A. When I was -- when I applied, I was prompted by personal motives.

5 Later on, I was bound by contract.

6 Q. As far as I understand, you signed that contract again on the

7 basis of your own personal decision.

8 A. That's right.

9 Q. And I also gathered that you then went to Erdut for training; is

10 that right?

11 A. Yes, it is.

12 Q. The same day that you enlisted, signed the contract, you went to

13 Erdut.

14 A. That's right.

15 Q. When you arrived at Erdut for training, were you aware of the fact

16 that this Serbian Volunteer Guard headed by Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, was

17 a part of the army of SAO Krajina, which later became the Republic of

18 Serbian Krajina?

19 A. I was not aware of that.

20 Q. And the people you found in Erdut and with whom you trained, were

21 they mostly, like you, from the territory of Croatia, that is, nationals

22 of Croatia? I see some nicknames like Osijek and the like. Yes or no.

23 You speak about that on page 4, second paragraph.

24 A. Yes, some of them.

25 Q. Very well. There were various rumours about that unit, that is

1 the Serbian Volunteer Guards. Is it true that very strict discipline

2 prevailed and there were heavy -- heavy punishment for the slightest

3 offence?

4 A. Yes, that's right.

5 Q. Is it true that you exercised very heavily, that you ran a

6 distance of 25 kilometres one day?

7 A. Yes, that's right.

8 Q. Is it true that while you were in Erdut and the surrounding

9 villages, Dalj, or anywhere in that area, had you heard that any local

10 from those villages had gone missing or had been killed or had -- a crime

11 had been committed against them?

12 A. While I was there, I had no knowledge of any such thing.

13 Q. And do you know of any crime committed by your colleague within

14 that unit of which you were a member, the Serbian Volunteer Guards?

15 A. You mean in that area?

16 Q. I mean generally, because you say that you were a member of the

17 Serbian volunteer guards. Do you have any knowledge that any one of your

18 colleagues committed a crime that you were aware of?

19 A. Only from rumours.

20 Q. Tell me now, since you're testifying about 45 of you going to

21 Bijeljina, is it true that you went to Bijeljina having been asked to come

22 there by the local authorities, the local authorities of Bijeljina or the

23 broader area around it? I don't know exactly. But my point in asking you

24 this question is whether you went there upon the invitation of the local

25 authorities.

1 A. I don't know that much. I know from later stories that Mauzer had

2 called Arkan to come.

3 Q. I'll read out to you the reason for us being there was, and this

4 is the one but last paragraph on page 5 of your statement, that: "Ljubisa

5 Savic, known as Mauzer, asked for aid on behalf of the local Serbs from

6 Bijeljina, and there was even some sort of an arrangement mentioning a

7 certain sum of money." That is what is stated in your statement.

8 A. Yes, that is correct, but I cannot guarantee that that was so.

9 Q. Very well. But you had also heard, what is contained in your

10 statement, that some money was mentioned, money that was received for this

11 activity.

12 A. Yes, I heard about it.

13 Q. So according to your knowledge, this group of yours went within

14 the scope of a private arrangement made with the local authorities in

15 Bijeljina; is that right?

16 A. Possibly. I don't know.

17 Q. And tell me, please, did you have anything to do with the JNA or

18 the police of the Republic of Serbia or any kind of links did that unit

19 have with them?

20 A. Not when we're talking about the attack on Bijeljina.

21 Q. All right. Do you know that this Mauzer was an official of the

22 democratic party? That's the one that's in power now in Serbia. He was

23 not even an official of Karadzic's Serb Democratic Party. He was an

24 official of the Democratic Party for Bosnia.

25 A. Yes, I'm aware of that.

1 Q. After awhile, you went to Popovi, and that is where you and your

2 colleagues from the unit played the role of instructors; is that right?

3 A. No, not in Popovi.

4 Q. I'm asking you about this because in the last paragraph of this

5 statement of yours, you say: "Then we went to Popovi, and we encountered

6 Serbs who were being trained by our men. And then they divided us up into

7 nine groups of five men respectively, and in every group there was a local

8 Serb so they could take us around," et cetera, et cetera.

9 A. Yes. This sentence refers to our actual arrival in Bijeljina.

10 Q. All right. Your actual arrival in Bijeljina, not this training.

11 All right.

12 Let me just take a look. When you came to Bijeljina, you were

13 asked questions about when travelling from Erdut to Serbia whether you

14 were stopped by the border police or the authorities, and then when you

15 were crossing the Drina whether you were stopped. Do you know that

16 Yugoslavia still existed at the time and that there was no border police?

17 A. There was some police there.

18 Q. Well, a short while ago when you were answering questions, you

19 said that there was no one there, that there wasn't anyone to stop you,

20 except in one case when you said that when you crossed over to Bosnia,

21 there was some police there. Is that right?

22 A. Yes. When we arrived in Bijeljina, there was police on the Erdut

23 side too or, rather, at the crossing by Erdut.

24 Q. This police, when you came to Bijeljina, was the Bijeljina police,

25 I assume. Is that right?

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. All right. This police was in the territory of

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that right?

4 A. The police down there, yes.

5 Q. A question was put to you as to whether there were any checkpoints

6 when you were crossing from Croatia to Serbia. You said no. And then

7 from Serbia to Bosnia, no. That's what you answered this morning. But on

8 the Bosnian side you encountered some police. Is that correct? That's

9 the way you had put it; right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So you left around 2.00 a.m. from Erdut, and you arrived in

12 Bijeljina sometime around 5.30, if I understood you correctly, if I

13 understood your explanation correctly.

14 A. A bit earlier than that.

15 Q. All right. So you left at 2.00 a.m., and you arrived when?

16 A. Around 5.00.

17 Q. Oh, around 5.00. You said when you were divided up into groups

18 that the leader of your group was an officer. I'm not going to mention

19 his nickname and so on and so forth, because this was said in closed

20 session, but I can ask you this in open session: When you say "officer,"

21 you're not referring to a JNA officer, and you're not referring to a

22 police officer. You are referring to an officer of your Volunteer Guard;

23 is that right?

24 A. Yes, that's right.

25 Q. You say that from there where you were first when you got off the

1 bus, you needed about ten minutes to get to the bus station; is that

2 right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You also said that you stopped civilians so that you would put

5 them into the waiting-room in order to have them protected that way.

6 A. Yes, that's right.

7 Q. Was there any violence against civilians then?

8 A. No, not at the time when I was present.

9 Q. Who killed this civilian who you said was a retarded man who did

10 not want to stop?

11 A. Three or four members of Arkan's guard.

12 Q. This was some kind of a patrol, wasn't it, or some kind of a

13 group?

14 A. It was one of the groups.

15 Q. This man was a Serb; is that right? The man who was killed.

16 A. Yes, that's right. I found out about that subsequently.

17 Q. Could you explain the following to me now, please: You said that

18 five to seven shells were fired at this Cafe Istanbul; is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, we are going to encounter a

21 considerable number of different descriptions here. I've seen this in the

22 case of several witnesses. We are going to see several different

23 descriptions as to what happened in relation to the Cafe Istanbul. In

24 view of the way in which the other side is leading this farce, it is

25 probably not going to be easy to establish what actually happened by this

1 Cafe Istanbul.

2 Q. Now, tell us, please, since we were shown some video footage and

3 we were shown this Cafe Istanbul, how come there is nothing that can be

4 seen on it? If five to seven shells were fired at it, then it should be

5 seriously damaged, shouldn't it, if not destroyed altogether? We're

6 talking about five to seven projectiles fired from a hand-held rocket

7 launcher, a Zolja; is that right?

8 A. These rockets do not cause very big damage. They got into the

9 cafe through the window, and the damage could not be seen from outside.

10 Q. Oh. They were targeting the windows of the cafe. So who got

11 killed at the Cafe Istanbul? Did you establish that, at least, who got

12 killed?

13 A. It was empty.

14 Q. So why did you target it?

15 A. Well, because the conflict started from there a day or two earlier

16 between the Serbs and the Muslims because the cafe was a Muslim cafe, and

17 that is what we were told by one of the Serb civilians who had joined our

18 group.

19 Q. Oh. So that's what the Serb civilian told you, that that is where

20 the attack started in Bijeljina and that's where the violence started in

21 Bijeljina a few days previously.

22 A. Yes, that's right.

23 Q. In this video footage, because no destruction can be seen in it

24 and no casualties can be seen, I heard someone say there is one wounded

25 person here. I heard that. You probably heard those words too. Somebody

1 was actually uttering these words, either the man who was filming or

2 somebody next to him, and he said, "There is one person who is wounded,"

3 and also somebody said, "It's horrible all over." Those were the only

4 words I heard. Did you hear anything else or did you see anything else in

5 this video footage, something that you could explain by way of what was

6 going on?

7 A. No, nothing special.

8 Q. Did you see the Cafe Istanbul in this video footage?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. And since I haven't been to Bijeljina, I don't know what it looks

11 like, but then you did see the Cafe Istanbul in this video footage.

12 A. Yes. It was at the very beginning of the video clip.

13 Q. All right. So no damage can be seen on the cafe in this

14 particular video footage, and you explained that this is due to the fact

15 that the rockets from the hand-held rocket launcher were fired through the

16 window; is that right?

17 A. Yes. The broken doors and windows can be seen.

18 Q. Oh, the broken doors and windows can be seen. All right.

19 You were asked here whether somebody had shot at you, whether

20 gunfire was coming from the other side, and you said that nobody had fired

21 at you personally. Is that your answer?

22 A. Not until we left the bus station. Nobody did.

23 Q. All right. You say that you noticed that somebody was shooting at

24 you from the water tower as you were moving through the park.

25 A. Yes, that's right.

1 Q. So was somebody shooting at you or was nobody shooting at you?

2 A. As for what happened in the park, that took place after we had

3 spent some time at the bus station.

4 Q. And at the bus station nobody shot at you?

5 A. No.

6 Q. And did you shoot at anyone at the bus station?

7 A. At the Cafe Istanbul.

8 Q. Oh. So it was from the bus station that you were shooting at the

9 Cafe Istanbul.

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. But nobody got hurt there, because you say that it was empty.

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. Tell me, since you said awhile ago that you had two wounded men,

14 where were these men wounded and what happened?

15 A. They were wounded at the other end of town. They were not members

16 of my group.

17 Q. But they were members of your same unit, weren't they?

18 A. That's right.

19 Q. And you had guards in front of the hospital because you had two of

20 your own wounded men there; is that right?

21 A. Not only for that reason. It was also in order to protect the

22 people who were in hospital.

23 Q. Did anybody attack the people who were in hospital?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Did you harm anyone? Did you mistreat anyone who was in hospital

1 or around the hospital? When I say "you," I'm not only referring to you

2 personally, I'm referring to members of your group and also the Bijeljina

3 Serbs who were with you.

4 A. No. I'm not sure about that.

5 Q. Could you explain the following to me now: You explained that

6 some vehicles were taken when the owner was not present. I actually wrote

7 down your words. When vehicles are taken or when some goods are taken or

8 valuables are taken when the owner is not present, it has a name, doesn't

9 it? As far as I know, it's called theft. Is that right?

10 A. Yes, that's right.

11 Q. So you stole vehicles, cigarettes, detergent and various other

12 goods that happened to be in that house; is that right?

13 A. That's right.

14 Q. You were asked here, you were asked by Mr. Groome, whether you

15 knew what the ethnic background of this man was whose goods you had

16 stolen, and your answer was that you did not know or, actually, I did not

17 hear of any such thing until now. Theft, on the basis of ethnic

18 principles. Is that why you were stealing, because of ethnic background,

19 or because the cigarettes and vehicles and detergents were there?

20 A. No. We were stealing on orders.

21 Q. Oh, you were stealing on orders.

22 A. Yes, that's right,

23 Q. All right. Now, when people steal, do they bear in mind the

24 ethnic background of the person that they are stealing from?

25 JUDGE MAY: That's not a question for the witness. Yes. Next

1 question.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. A question was put to you whether there were any casualties.

5 Except for the Serb that you killed there, you had two wounded men. I

6 mean, you referred to that retarded man and you had two men of your own

7 who were wounded, your answer was no, but later on you heard that there

8 had been casualties; is that right?

9 A. Yes, that's right.

10 Q. You say that you personally were not exposed to any attacks.

11 A. No, not to a heavy attack.

12 Q. What was that? I didn't hear you properly.

13 A. Not to a heavy attack.

14 Q. Not a heavy attack. What kind of attack were you exposed to?

15 A. Well, relatively, two or three persons were firing at us.

16 Q. All right. Tell me, do you know, since the people from the local

17 authorities called you to come, did you know that, before that, Bijeljina

18 had been blocked by Muslim paramilitary formations that called themselves

19 the Patriotic League of Peoples, the Green Berets, and other names? Were

20 you aware of that?

21 A. I was not aware of that. I was aware that ethnic Muslims from the

22 Cafe Istanbul threw a hand grenade in front of the cafe where ethnic Serbs

23 had been gathering.

24 Q. And that's how the conflict in Bijeljina started; is that right?

25 That's what you knew as regards these particular events.

1 A. Yes, that's what I knew.

2 Q. And did you know anything about putting Bijeljina under the

3 command of these extremists of the so-called Patriotic League of Peoples

4 and these Green Berets, these Muslim extremists?

5 A. I didn't know anything.

6 Q. And did you find out then about the situation that the Serbs in

7 Bijeljina were in, that they were unprepared, that they were not organised

8 for this kind of violence or, rather, that they had relied on the JNA to

9 protect them?

10 A. Well, I did not know that they had relied on the JNA to protect

11 them, but they had relied on us to protect them, we as Arkan's guard.

12 Q. Was it your assessment and could you see that they themselves had

13 not been prepared or organised to defend themselves?

14 A. They as a whole were not, but a group of civilians was prepared.

15 Q. Prepared for what?

16 A. Well, let's put it this way: They were armed.

17 Q. Yes. But that happened after the others started acting violently,

18 after this other side did what you described. I mean, you described how

19 violence over the Serbs started in Bijeljina. Is that right or is that

20 not right?

21 A. Yes. I'm talking about the moment when we came to Bijeljina.

22 Q. Is it correct that when you came many Serbs had already fled with

23 their families to Borovi, to the neighbouring village, and some even all

24 the way to Serbia because Bijeljina is near Serbia?

25 A. Yes. I know that there were many refugees who had left Bijeljina.

1 Q. All right. In these conflicts there were casualties on both

2 sides; is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Tell me, please, when you talk about what happened around the Cafe

5 Istanbul, we have a witness here who explains that he was shooting at the

6 Cafe Istanbul, not you, and so on.

7 A. Perhaps he was shooting too. Three or four men were shooting.

8 Q. And the one who was shooting, was he a Serb or a Muslim?

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. All right. We'll establish that later. Tell me, do you remember

11 that from the bell tower of the Catholic church they were firing at town

12 from a machine-gun?

13 A. I don't know. I was not in that part of town.

14 Q. Do you know that it is precisely at that time -- I mean, you were

15 there for a few days, weren't you?

16 A. Yes, that's right.

17 Q. It was Alija Izetbegovic who called the JNA to come to Bijeljina

18 to calm the situation down. Do you remember that? You don't know

19 anything about that; is that right?

20 A. I don't.

21 Q. Have you heard of the general mobilisation that was declared by

22 the Muslim leadership of the B and H?

23 A. I only heard people talk.

24 Q. You didn't even read the newspapers then, did you?

25 A. I'm not interested in politics and news.

1 Q. All right. Tell me, all of this that was going on in Bijeljina

2 and the reason why you were called to come to Bijeljina to protect the

3 Serb population, so all of this that happened in Bijeljina just before

4 that, was that an act of terror against the Serbs in Bijeljina?

5 A. Yes. I mentioned that a hand grenade had been thrown at them.

6 Q. All right. You say on page 6, paragraph 2 of your statement, you

7 say that you were shooting at a Muslim. Is it correct that you were

8 shooting, and how come you know this was a Muslim when you shot at him?

9 Later on you establish that you don't know whether you actually hit him or

10 not, and you went up there and you couldn't find any bloodstains. Can you

11 explain that?

12 A. We can. When a group is fighting its way through town, the group

13 contains five men. Out of these five men, when one is running, the others

14 are shooting in the direction from which the other shooting is coming so

15 that the man who is doing the running could do so safely. As far as I

16 know, we were shooting at the water tower, but it was pretty far away so I

17 cannot say anything with any certainty as to whether we from my group had

18 actually hit anyone.

19 Q. All right.

20 JUDGE MAY: It's time for the adjournment. How much longer do you

21 think you'll be, Mr. Milosevic?

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it was my understanding that I

23 have the opportunity of using this time, Mr. May. I don't know how much

24 time I'll need. Perhaps I'll have some 30-odd questions, not more than

25 that.

1 JUDGE MAY: We're getting the B/C/S coming through on the English

2 channel.

3 Mr. Nice, it looks as though, in effect, we're going to take up

4 most of the rest of the morning, unless there's some matter you want to

5 discuss.

6 MR. NICE: There are a number of outstanding administrative

7 matters I could raise at the end of the day, I suppose, make some use of

8 the time. But that apart, there's going to be no witness ready to be

9 called. There's uncertainty as to what the position is at the moment. I

10 haven't been able to contact the Registry in Dubrovnik recently. There

11 seemed to be some possibility of the Sarajevo equipment being brought to

12 Dubrovnik to take General Marinovic tomorrow. That, of course, would

13 conflict with the timetable of the witness who was to be heard on tomorrow

14 from Sarajevo.

15 I'm very much in the dark, and I just don't know what's happening.

16 JUDGE MAY: We're going to get some instructions.

17 MR. NICE: And I am aware that we represented to the Chamber that

18 the witness from Sarajevo could only go on tomorrow in Sarajevo, he having

19 other appointments all week. So what happens -- it seems we may have got

20 some information.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, could you clarify this for

22 me. Is this the witness who had been envisaged for tomorrow originally to

23 testify by videolink or are we talking about somebody else?

24 JUDGE MAY: I think the short answer is we're not going to be able

25 to come to any sort of decision for the moment. We have a note of a

1 proposal by the Registry that we should start with General Marinovic at

2 9.00 a.m. tomorrow and the other one should testify on the 25th of March.

3 Perhaps you'd like to think about that. I don't know whether

4 that's a practical course.

5 MR. NICE: The first time I've heard of that particular proposal,

6 so of course we'll review it.

7 JUDGE MAY: By the end of the day we must know what we're going to

8 do tomorrow.

9 MR. NICE: And I'll come in at the end of the evidence and see if

10 there are one or two matters I can raise with you. There are some

11 timetable problems. In particular, the various issues I raised in our

12 discussion document when I know the Chamber was composed of two not three

13 of its members. I haven't received any response by the Chamber. There's

14 no particular reason why they should, but in order for me to budget time,

15 which is what I have to do, I would be assisted by whatever answers, if

16 any, may be forthcoming, even if they're all negative, because timetable

17 problems aren't going to go away.

18 JUDGE MAY: We will adjourn now for twenty minutes.

19 --- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 12.44 p.m.

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. With respect to the security of the hospital, you say on page 6 of

25 your statement: "I returned to the bus station where I learnt that my

1 group had gone to provide security to the hospital. On the road to the

2 hospital, by the department store in town, I saw a large machine-gun

3 placed on the roof, and although I didn't see who was manning it, I shot

4 at it and hit the barrel so that the machine-gun exploded into the air."

5 MR. GROOME: Your Honour? My apologies for interrupting

6 Mr. Milosevic but we do have some new information regarding tomorrow's

7 situation, and the person who is scheduled is due to leave his house any

8 minute, so if we could resolve it now, I'd be very much appreciative of

9 the Chamber.

10 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

11 MR. GROOME: The witness the beekeeper who was scheduled for

12 tomorrow cannot go to Dubrovnik tomorrow but he is available on the 25th,

13 which was proposed by the Registry. So if we can agree to that, I'll put

14 that into place now.

15 JUDGE MAY: We would have the general tomorrow as scheduled for

16 today; is that right?

17 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE MAY: And the other one would go back to next week.

19 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE MAY: Right.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes, we'll do that. We'll have to discuss the timings

23 but we can do that at the end of the day for tomorrow because we had

24 announced some different timings but I guess we won't need to do that and

25 we'll sit the normal hours. If someone could check on that.

1 MR. GROOME: I'll work on that as well.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, if you would, please. Thank you, Mr. Groome.

3 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

4 I'm sorry to the witness. You will be deeply puzzled as to what's

5 going on. It's tomorrow's arrangements.

6 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

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19 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to speak into

20 the microphone. Thank you.

21 JUDGE MAY: Could you -- just a moment. Could you speak into the

22 microphone, please. If you would lean into the microphone, they would be

23 able to hear you better.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

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9 MR. GROOME: Your Honour --

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. And you say that on page 6 of your statement.

12 MR. GROOME: This was a matter dealt with in closed session. I'd

13 ask that that be redacted from the record and we go into closed session

14 for this matter.

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Private session.

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11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. On page 7 of your statement, you say that you stayed in Bijeljina

13 in order to provide support to the Serb police in Bijeljina; is that

14 right?

15 A. Yes, we did help the police to bring back law and order to the

16 town.

17 Q. All right. Now let's clear one point up. That was the local

18 police force in Bijeljina; right? And it was a private arrangement that

19 they had with Arkan; is that right?

20 A. Probably.

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25 JUDGE MAY: Private session.

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. -- your own foot.

3 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, could I ask that that last bit be

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5 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

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24 [Open session]

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. When did you leave Borovo?

2 A. At the beginning of 1998.

3 Q. Is it true that you left Borovo because of threats and pressures

4 brought to bear on the Serbs?

5 JUDGE MAY: I think we better go into private session. Go back

6 into private session.

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18 [Open session]

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Tell me, please, in view of everything that happened to you during

22 this period of time that you were in Croatia at the beginning of the war

23 and at the end of the war and after the war, were you exposed to the

24 ethnic cleansing of Serbs by Croatian extremists or Croatian armed

25 formations? Do you consider yourself to be a victim of that ethnic

1 cleansing?

2 A. Yes, I was exposed to ethnic cleansing, and I do consider myself

3 to be a victim of ethnic cleansing.

4 Q. So is it true that the climate was such before and after the war

5 that you simply had to flee from the territory of Croatia?

6 A. Yes, that is true.

7 Q. And tell me, please, is it true that later on you underwent

8 psychiatric treatment?

9 A. Yes. I was briefly treated psychiatrically at the end of 1992 at

10 the time when I was a member of the 2nd Semberija Brigade.

11 Q. Were you seriously ill at the time or was this just a passing

12 incident that you had, passing symptoms?

13 A. I think that I was very seriously in danger because of a member of

14 my family.

15 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I believe we're getting into an area

16 that would reveal his identity, as well as being very personal. I'd ask

17 for private session.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes, private session.

19 [Private session]

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1 [Open session]

2 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

3 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, you said that when you left the area

4 where you lived in the autumn of 1991, that you had gone to look for your

5 mother and the other members of your family.

6 A. After we had left the barracks and after we got out of town, I

7 spent about ten days with the same unit and then I started looking for my

8 family, because I had not had any contact, telephone contact or any

9 others. I had not seen them so I had assumed that they had fled.

10 Q. For the same reasons why you had left from there? There was some

11 danger there in terms of their own physical integrity and every other kind

12 of integrity; is that correct?

13 A. Yes, there was some danger, but unfortunately they decided to risk

14 it and stay.

15 Q. So they stayed. They did not leave? [redacted]

16 A. They stayed, yes.

17 Q. Were there any other people --

18 JUDGE MAY: Go into private session.

19 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: Pardon.

20 [Private session]

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5 [Open session]

6 MR. GROOME:

7 Q. Sir, Mr. Milosevic also asked you about whether there were locals

8 as members of Arkan's Tigers. Can you tell us, where were most of the men

9 who you trained with at Erdut, most of the recruits, where were they from?

10 A. From Serbia.

11 Q. And you described an incident where a retarded Serb man was killed

12 in Bijeljina. To your knowledge, did you ever become aware of an

13 investigation conducted into that matter with respect to whether it was a

14 proper and justified shooting?

15 A. I don't know. I'm not aware of that.

16 MR. GROOME: Just a minute, Your Honour.

17 Q. Of the men that were recruited into Arkan's Tigers, did you become

18 aware of the fact that a number of them had been previously in prison?

19 A. A part of them, yes.

20 Q. And were you also informed that some of those men would receive a

21 reduction of their prison sentence if they agreed to volunteer to fight

22 with Arkan's Tigers?

23 A. I did not know anyone personally with that kind of approach to

24 Arkan's guard, but people did talk about this. The soldiers themselves

25 talked about this.

1 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] He said no such thing during the

4 examination-in-chief, otherwise, I would have cross-examined him about

5 that, because this is quite impossible for someone to be released from

6 serving a prison term in order to enter Arkan's Guard. He was not asked

7 about this in examination-in-chief, so I think it is quite improper to put

8 questions during re-examination.

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

10 MR. GROOME: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We will ignore that final part of the

12 re-examination. I think that's the fairest way to deal with it, about the

13 reduction in sentence.

14 Witness B-1738, thank you for coming to the Tribunal to give your

15 evidence. It's now concluded. You are free to go.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 [The witness withdrew]

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We are still in open session, I believe,

19 although we have the blinds down. We can deal with practical matters.

20 MR. NICE: Just a couple of matters, really. I understand that

21 it's now clear that the Sarajevo witness won't be available tomorrow, so

22 we'll go straight from General Marinovic into the next live witness. I'm

23 not sure yet whether it's clear whether we start at 9.00 tomorrow.

24 JUDGE MAY: It isn't, but I see nodding in front, so we do start

25 at 9.00.

1 MR. NICE: To assist the accused, the amici and the Court, the

2 intention is that Gusalic shall be the next witness after him. And as to

3 the remaining witnesses, perhaps I can send a letter or have a letter

4 sent. It's going to be followed by B-1003. After that, I'm not quite

5 certain what the position is because of the change of circumstances

6 brought about by the problems of which we are now aware.

7 JUDGE KWON: If you could tell me the next witness again.

8 MR. NICE: Gusalic.

9 JUDGE KWON: Gusalic, yes.

10 MR. NICE: As to General Marinovic, I have both here and in

11 Dubrovnik large maps that he's marked. If by any chance the Chamber has

12 any time - I'm sure it doesn't - to consider in advance the large detailed

13 map, it can be brought to you.

14 The summary that's been provided is different, of course, from the

15 usual summary. It's really to assist you in relation to the one or two

16 points where there are corrections required from his statement and in

17 relation to what he will also say about the large map indexed on the

18 left-hand side by page 18, and it may be for that reason that you'll want

19 to see the map. But otherwise, the intention is that we'll have the map

20 in some position where you can all see it tomorrow or it can be displayed

21 on the screen, which will probably be there, or here if you need to see it

22 because the video reproduction won't be very satisfactory. But there's

23 also an identical map with the witness in Dubrovnik so that he can point

24 things out on it.

25 The press will want to know in this case that the statement of

1 General Marinovic has already been exhibited. Your Honour, I'm afraid I

2 don't immediately recall its number. So that to make sense of his

3 evidence, if they wish to do so, they can obtain a copy of that exhibit

4 from the Registry and then they'll know what his evidence in chief amounts

5 to because, of course, he's not going to give any evidence in chief.

6 After a few questions, he will just be cross-examined.

7 JUDGE MAY: It's Exhibit 374.

8 MR. NICE: Thank you very much.

9 JUDGE MAY: So the proposal is this: That we sit tomorrow at 9.00

10 to hear the general's evidence. We will start by finding out how long

11 he's going to be available for. Perhaps you can find that out at the

12 outset, or whoever is calling them. There will be a few questions in

13 direct, or chief, and then we'll go into cross-examination.

14 MR. NICE: Yes.

15 JUDGE MAY: And he will be followed, so that we have this -- make

16 sure we have it in mind, by Mr. Gusalic.

17 MR. NICE: Yes.

18 JUDGE MAY: And then B-1003.

19 MR. NICE: Correct. Can I, in the remaining two minutes, ask one

20 other thing, perhaps, of the accused? You will remember that with last

21 week's Kosovo witness there was reference to the Trial Record of someone

22 called Stanojevic. The accused spoke from a judgement which was in

23 numbered paragraphs. We had the trial record but we didn't have and have

24 not now been able to find or locate thus far a judgement that is in

25 numbered paragraphs, and accordingly we can't make sense that that which

1 the accused was putting to the witness. There is no reason why the

2 accused, if he is in possession of such a document, shouldn't provide it

3 to the Court. Either we will then -- in B/C/S and not in translation,

4 that will enable us to track down whether we do in fact possess an

5 English-language version of the document or, alternatively, to come back

6 to the Trial Chamber with proposals for what part of it should be

7 translated in English if not all of it.

8 JUDGE MAY: Can you help with that, Mr. Milosevic? You were

9 relying on the document.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The judgement, you mean. I quoted a

11 particular paragraph of the judgement or, rather, the paragraphs that were

12 quoted.

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes. They can't find it. So if you give us the

14 document, or tell us where it is, no doubt someone can find it. If you

15 want it exhibited. If you don't produce it, then of course it can't be

16 exhibited.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We'll find it, Mr. May.

18 JUDGE MAY: Very well. The other matter is that we should

19 tomorrow, if Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff would be in, we could announce the

20 remaining matters for discussion this week from the witnesses that the --

21 the witnesses from -- whose statements have been served under Rule 92 bis.

22 MR. NICE: Your Honour, that would be extremely helpful, because

23 as I indicated earlier, the developing pattern of 92 bis rulings enables

24 me to know more how I'm going to have to deal with budgeting and timetable

25 issues. And the further assistance that I seek is the response, if any is

1 to be forthcoming, about procedural suggestions that we raised but I'm in

2 the Chamber's hands.

3 JUDGE MAY: We will not be in a position to deal with those this

4 week. We will deal with them as soon as we can.

5 We will adjourn now until 9.00 tomorrow morning.

6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

7 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 18th day of March,

8 2003, at 9.00 a.m.

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