Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 19258

 1                          Tuesday, 15 April 2003

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          [The witness entered court]

 5                          --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

 6            JUDGE MAY:  Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

 7            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Are we in public session, Mr. May?

 8            THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 9            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Before I resume, I should like to

10    say that my associate who is sitting in the gallery has informed me that

11    yesterday, with the exception of the five minutes -- first five minutes of

12    cross-examination, everything was in private session, and as you will

13    remember, we had quite a bit of time in open session.  So probably it

14    continued in private session by inertia.  And I wish to draw attention to

15    this matter because there are many questions that can be asked in open

16    session and were asked in open session yesterday.  However, everything

17    with the exception of the first five minutes was in private session.  Not

18    a single word could be heard.

19            JUDGE MAY:  We'll check to see if he's right.  Yes.  Let's move

20    on.

21            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I shall now continue in open

22    session.

23                          WITNESS: WITNESS B-050 [Resumed]

24                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

25                          Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]

Page 19259

 1       Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. B-050, I should like to ask you, without

 2    identifying you personally, I should like to ask you something about the

 3    JNA before the outbreak of the conflict.  You did your compulsory military

 4    service in the JNA, didn't you?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   The unit in which you served consisted of how many men?  How many

 7    men were in this unit?  This was several years prior to the beginning of

 8    the war, as I can see from your statement.

 9       A.   You mean the first time I served?

10       Q.   I mean when you did your regular military service.  I won't even

11    mention the year.  But you indicated that in the second paragraph of your

12    statement.

13            When you did your national military service in the JNA in the

14    SFRY, everything was peaceful and so on.  Tell me, how many men were there

15    in that unit?

16       A.   I'm asking you whether you're referring to the first part, the

17    first six months or the second six months?

18       Q.   I am referring to both.  Let me ask you first about the first six

19    months?

20       A.   A 30-men platoon.

21       Q.   That is a part of a unit, isn't it, of the institution in which

22    you did your military service?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   How many such platoons were there in that unit?

25       A.   About ten or so.

Page 19260

 1       Q.   I see.  Ten or so.  Very well.  When you completed your first six

 2    months, you acquired a certain rank, didn't you?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   That is the lowest non-commissioned officer rank in the army,

 5    isn't it, the rank you obtained?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   Is it customary after the first six months, and once you acquire

 8    this lowest rank of a non-commissioned officer you are transferred and

 9    then you act as a platoon leader or commander?  Is that right?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   I hope this is nothing confidential.  There are tens of thousands

12    of officers in reserve, so you cannot be identified on that basis.

13       A.   Yes, that's fine.

14       Q.   Very well.  As a platoon leader, you had some 20 men under you.

15    You were a sergeant.  You had some 20 men in the platoon?

16       A.   Yes.  But in the second part of my military service, I had two

17    platoons.

18       Q.   I see.  So you were the leader of two platoons?

19       A.   Yes, between 60 and 70 soldiers and eight corporals.

20       Q.   So this was probably because there was a shortage of officer

21    cadres; is that right?

22       A.   Yes, probably.

23       Q.   But is it customary, having completed this school of officers in

24    reserve, the sergeant should be a platoon commander?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 19261

 1       Q.   Tell me now, what is the difference between your position after

 2    mobilisation and after the outbreak of the conflict from the position you

 3    held before in the army upon the completion of your regular military

 4    service?  Namely, what I have in mind is that later on when you were

 5    mobilised again you had some 20 men under you; is that right?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   So you were again a platoon commander?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   And you were not an instructor.  You were a platoon commander in

10    the Territorial Defence of Krajina.

11       A.   No.  The difference is that I was not mobilised by the JNA but by

12    the police.

13       Q.   Very well.  But we established yesterday that this was part of the

14    Territorial Defence of Krajina.  That's what you said.

15       A.   Yes.  We had the TO of the army and the TO of the police.  And for

16    me, it would have been more logical in those days to have been recruited

17    by the JNA.

18       Q.   I understand what would have been more logical to you, but I am

19    talking about the formation, the unit.  Is that in accordance with the

20    rank and position you would have normally held?  So you were a platoon

21    commander in the Krajina police; is that right?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   Why, then, do you say that you were some sort of an instructor?

24    Every platoon commander in any military establishment trains those 20 men

25    under him and attends military training with them.  Is that customary?

Page 19262

 1       A.   Because in that camp, the ranks of the JNA were not important.

 2       Q.   But surely the qualifications were.  You were qualified to command

 3    a platoon during your regular military service.

 4       A.   Yes, but of the Yugoslav People's Army, not of the police.

 5       Q.   Was the police that you were mobilised into in the service of the

 6    defence of Krajina?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   So there was no difference regarding the training or was there any

 9    difference?

10       A.   No, there wasn't.

11       Q.   After completing the reserve officers' school during the second

12    part of your military service with the soldiers under your command, did

13    you undergo the same training that you underwent later on when you were

14    mobilised?

15       A.   It was similar.

16       Q.   Similar or identical; is that right?

17       A.   Similar.

18       Q.   And was there anything specific about this second mobilisation as

19    compared to the first?  Regular training of the mobilised recruits by

20    officers who had completed some kind of school prior to that, in this case

21    the reserve officer school?

22       A.   There wasn't any big difference.

23       Q.   So I just wish to specify this.  You were a platoon commander in

24    the Krajina police.  Why then mystifying the whole matter by talking about

25    instructors or trainers, about a special status when there was no such

Page 19263

 1    thing?  It was regular training.

 2       A.   I did not mystify anything.  I told the truth.

 3       Q.   Was it regular training?

 4       A.   It wasn't regular when we were mobilised.

 5       Q.   I didn't understand.  What did you say?

 6       A.   It wasn't regular because we had been mobilised to the police.

 7       Q.   Let us leave that aside for the moment, whether you had been

 8    mobilised to the army or the police, because as far as I know in Krajina

 9    in those days, both the army and the police --

10            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What's the problem, Mr. May?

11            JUDGE MAY:  What is the point of all this?  Where is it taking

12    anybody to spend minutes, if not parts of hours, arguing whether he was an

13    instructor or not?

14            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The point, Mr. May, is that the

15    opposing side is mystifying the position of this witness by abusing

16    protective measures and using private sessions to present --

17            JUDGE MAY:  That is not right.  The point seems to be a totally

18    trifling one without significance.  I speak for myself, of course.  Now,

19    move on.

20            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.  Just one more question

21    in this connection.

22            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23       Q.   In your statement, it says that when you left the army before the

24    war, when you were doing your national service and were for six months in

25    the troops as a platoon commander that you left the army with the rank of

Page 19264

 1    lieutenant.

 2       A.   No, not lieutenant, second lieutenant.

 3       Q.   And is -- do you know, because I also went to that reserve officer

 4    school, you first have the rank of sergeant and only later do you acquire

 5    the rank of second lieutenant and not lieutenant?  Is that right or not?

 6       A.   Maybe you're right, but I don't think it's important.  I know that

 7    shortly afterwards, whether it was a month later, I acquired the rank of

 8    either second lieutenant or first -- lieutenant.

 9       Q.   Tell me, you say that you specialised later on.  Later you

10    specialised in anti-aircraft weapons.  Is that right?

11       A.   Yes, but not later.  It was during my military service in the JNA.

12       Q.   So you were in the reserve officers' school of the air defences,

13    the SPA, weren't you?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   And that was your regular military service in which you were

16    trained for an office in reserve of the anti-air defences.  So this point

17    regarding rank is not correct, nor is what you said about specialising

18    later correct.

19       A.   I don't know, Mr. Milosevic, what you are conveying, but I don't

20    think there is any mystery about that.  Everyone knows how these things

21    function.

22       Q.   Very well.  Let us move on then.  Yesterday you made a problem out

23    of a question put to you in the examination-in-chief as to how much time

24    you had spent in that camp, logor.

25       A.   I was not in a logor or "camp."

Page 19265

 1       Q.   I want to ask you why you are so sensitive about the word

 2    "logor"?

 3       A.   Because I was never in a "logor" and there is a difference between

 4    a "logor" and a camp.

 5       Q.   And do you know what the difference is between a logor and a camp?

 6       A.   I assume that a logor means detainees, and a camp is people who

 7    are there on a voluntary basis.

 8       Q.   But do you know that the interpreter did not make any mistake,

 9    because camp is an English word and logor is our word?  It's the same

10    concept.

11       A.   I didn't know that.

12       Q.   But you didn't answer my question why you're sensitive to the word

13    "logor."

14       A.   I'm not sensitive.

15       Q.   You mentioned arrests of Croats in your examination-in-chief.

16       A.   It wasn't arrests.  It was in an operation.  It was in action.

17       Q.   I see, in action.  And what were you, taking prisoners of war?

18       A.   Yes.  They were exchanged on the same day.

19       Q.   They were exchanged the same day?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   Was anyone mistreated among them?

22       A.   No.

23       Q.   Were they badly treated?

24       A.   No.

25       Q.   Did you have any order on the part of your superiors in the

Page 19266

 1    Territorial Defence or the police to respect the rights of prisoners of

 2    war and to take care not to make any infringements?  Did you abide by

 3    that?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   Do you know of any case when someone did not comply with those

 6    rules, that mistreated prisoners or executed prisoners?

 7       A.   I, personally, am not aware of any such case.

 8       Q.   Thank you.  Tell me now, please, with precision.  You spoke about

 9    April 1991 and the organisation where you attributed a role to

10    Franko Simatovic, and you yourself said that you only saw Franko Simatovic

11    in June 1991.  Is that right?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   So he could not have had any connection with your original

14    mobilisation or organisation or the composition of the police to which you

15    had been mobilised.  Is that right or not?

16       A.   As far as his physical presence is concerned, you're right, but

17    I'm not aware of the political decisions that may have been taken earlier

18    on.

19       Q.   Very well.  And when did you see Jovica Stanisic?

20       A.   Roughly in September 1991.

21       Q.   September 1991.  Well, then let's describe what you referred to in

22    your examination.  What was Stanisic at the time?  You said that above

23    Stanisic was the minister of the police, and he said on a couple of

24    occasions that he would see the boss, and you think that he was referring

25    to me and so on.  So what was he then?

Page 19267

 1       A.   I think that he was a head of the State Security Service of

 2    Serbia.

 3       Q.   That is the point, Mr. B-050.  Stanisic was not nor could he have

 4    been head of the state security of Serbia.  In September 1991, that was

 5    not the position he held.

 6       A.   You may have been right.

 7       Q.   And who told you to say that?

 8       A.   No one told me.

 9       Q.   Well, how did that occur to you?  I don't think he introduced

10    himself falsely.

11       A.   No, but I know that he became that shortly afterwards.  If he

12    wasn't then when we met for the first time, he became that shortly

13    afterwards.

14       Q.   Well, if that was not his position, he con have acted in that

15    position regardless of what he became later on.  It's no doubt that he did

16    become that later on, but at that time that was not the position he held.

17       A.   I would like to ask if we can to go into private session.  I would

18    like to answer this question in somewhat greater detail.

19            JUDGE MAY:  We may.

20                          [Private session]

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24                          [Open session]

25            THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session.

Page 19301

 1            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

 2       Q.   Mr. B-050, tell me this, please, did you ever hear that

 3    Frenki Simatovic told you or anybody else or ordered you or anybody else,

 4    in fact, ordered ever, and I'd like to stress the word "ever," or suggest

 5    that you perpetrate a crime of any kind or an offence of any kind at any

 6    point in time as far as you know, to the best of your knowledge?

 7       A.   No, never.

 8       Q.   And along with what is considered professional training, was the

 9    basic idea that was the background of the training to defend one's country

10    and one's people and nothing more than that?  Is that what you were

11    communicated?

12       A.   Yes.

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 8            JUDGE MAY:  Just a moment.  We most certainly are not going

 9    to -- stay in open session for that.  We'll go into private session.

10                          [Private session]

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20                          --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

21                          --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

22                          [Open session]

23            JUDGE MAY:  Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.  We are in open session.

24            MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

25       Q.   Witness, is it true that your prime duty in the camp in which you

Page 19311

 1    spent almost five months was to train others?

 2       A.   One of my tasks.

 3       Q.   Is it true that in that camp there weren't many recruits and that

 4    men came in small groups; is that right?

 5       A.   Yes, that's right.

 6       Q.   Is it right that they stayed for roughly a period of 20 days?

 7       A.   Later.

 8       Q.   That they attended training for about 20 days?

 9       A.   Yes, as of May 1992.

10       Q.   May 1992?  But you were there only until the end of January 1992.

11       A.   Yes, but when you're asking me about these people who came and

12    stayed briefly, this happened in May.  But as for those who came earlier

13    on, they stayed for longer.

14       Q.   For how long?

15       A.   Well, no one left while I was there.

16       Q.   But you said in your statement:  "We knew that they wouldn't stay

17    with us.  And I was not at all interested in where they would go after

18    that."  Is that right what you said earlier on in your statement?

19       A.   I don't know how it was translated, but what I just said is right.

20       Q.   It says here that you knew that they wouldn't stay with you and

21    that you had no interest as to where they would go after that.  Is that

22    right or not?

23       A.   What I said a moment ago is right.

24       Q.   Thank you.  And is it true that those people who came came without

25    weapons, and they left your camp again without weapons?  Is that right?

Page 19312

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   And is it right that they returned to their villages and then they

 3    continued working and training other people?

 4       A.   In this second period, yes.

 5       Q.   And is it true that it is only once they arrived there in the

 6    villages did they receive weapons from the Territorial Defence?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   And is it also correct what is also stated in your statement, I

 9    quote:  "I that the Red Berets that we trained probably were implementing

10    the orders of local municipal leaders in Bosnia or perhaps of the Crisis

11    Staffs."  Is that right or not?

12       A.   It is right.  And could this be in private session, please?  Thank

13    you.

14            MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I see no reason

15    why.

16            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only this last question.

17            JUDGE MAY:  What is the reason for there, Mr. Nice?  I'm not sure

18    that I follow.  It's like the earlier question we had.  It really seems to

19    me to be --

20            MR. NICE:  I can only infer that the source of information to

21    which the witness would refer could identify him, but I would respectfully

22    suggest that the Chamber might wish to ask the witness that himself.

23            JUDGE MAY:  What is the difficulty, Mr. B-050, about this

24    evidence?

25            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am thinking only of this last

Page 19313

 1    question when Mr. Tapuskovic is asking me about the Red Berets, the

 2    beginning of the Red Berets and the men coming and going.  Only this

 3    question mentioning the Red Berets.  Everything else is okay.  Thank you.

 4            MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I didn't mention anything

 5    specific.  I am just saying the Red Berets.  That in itself cannot reveal

 6    your identity --

 7            JUDGE MAY:  Private session.  It's matter which we're going to

 8    have to return to.  It's not a satisfactory situation, but at the moment I

 9    can see no alternative.

10                          [Private session]

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Page 19316

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 3                          [Open session]

 4            MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] In your statement, you speak

 5    about the events at the Miljevacka plateau.  Can you explain to Their

 6    Honours what happened on that plateau?  Was this an attack that occurred

 7    during a period of cease-fire or not?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   And is it true that the Croatian side attacked even though there

10    was a cease-fire?   That 50 men were killed of which 20 were innocent

11    civilians?

12       A.   That is true.

13       Q.   Can you explain to Their Honours how the innocent civilians were

14    killed?

15       A.   In a Croatian armed operation.

16  [redacted]

17  [redacted]

18       A.   I really do apologise to Your Honours.

19       Q.   Never mind.  I'll withdraw.  I'll withdraw that question.

20            When those events started in the spring of 1991 and when that unit

21    was formed, was the population already on the move and were there already

22    a large numbers of Serbs who were fleeing Krajina?

23       A.   I don't understand the question.

24       Q.   Where do you think they fled?  They were leaving Krajina going to

25    Bosnia or Serbia or Vojvodina?

Page 19317

 1       A.   Mostly the Serbs were leaving who were living in towns with a

 2    majority Croatian population.

 3       Q.   Can you give us a rough estimate?

 4       A.   No, I can't.

 5       Q.   And after this after this operation in 1992 at the Miljevacka

 6    plateau, did Serbs again leave those areas?

 7       A.   In smaller numbers.  In that period, yes, in that region yes,

 8    everyone left.  In that area, yes.

 9       Q.   In your statement you say sometime in March 1993 there were about

10    5.000 Serbs in Knin from the area of Zadar.  Had they fled from Zadar and

11    moved to Knin?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   So as you followed developments in the period that followed, and

14    that will be my last question, how many refugees were there from the

15    Krajina?  How many people left their homes in those areas?  Right up until

16    1995.

17       A.   Approximately between 100 and 200.000.

18            MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I have no further

19    questions, Your Honours.

20            JUDGE MAY:  Are we in open session?  We are.  All right.

21            MR. NICE:  We are in open session at the moment.

22            JUDGE MAY:  Let's stay there as long as we can.

23            MR. NICE:  Certainly.  Dealing with the issue of the taking of the

24    statement.  The position was broadly as I was reminded it was when I

25    mentioned it before the adjournment.  At the interview, the investigator

Page 19318

 1    had his own tape machine and I think notes.  On review, the tape provided

 2    nothing audible even with enhancement techniques.  The witness was then

 3    brought to The Hague and the statement was then taken from him in more

 4    detail here, so that there is nothing audible that could be disclosed to

 5    the accused.

 6            I have one more passage of the statement that I must read to you,

 7    but I must seek leave to do that in closed session.  It arises from a

 8    question of Mr. Tapuskovic.

 9            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.

10            MR. NICE:  In open session --

11            JUDGE MAY:  Do you want to go into open -- do you want to go into

12    private session now or not.

13            MR. NICE:  I'll try to deal with everything in open session first.

14            JUDGE MAY:  Okay.

15                          Re-examined by Mr. Nice:

16       Q.   Could you answer if question, please, just yes or no,

17    Witness B-050, just yes or no:  Were --

18            MR. NICE:  No, Your Honour, I don't think I can ask this question

19    safely in open session but we can come back to it.  May we go into closed

20    session.

21            JUDGE MAY:  Private session.

22            MR. NICE:  Private session

23                          [Private session]

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 2                          [Open session]

 3            JUDGE MAY:  We can start -- we can be in open session, can we,

 4    Mr. Groome.

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 6  [redacted]

 7  [redacted]

 8  [redacted]

 9  [redacted]

10            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.  Thank you.  Yes.  Could we have the witness.

11            MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, if I could ask the declaration be read

12    to the witness and he assent to it?

13            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.  If the interpreters would read the declaration.

14                          [The witness entered court]

15            JUDGE MAY:  If you would just stand.  Mr. Witness, if you can hear

16    us.  A declaration --

17            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you, yes.

18            JUDGE MAY:  -- Is going to be read to you.  If the interpreters

19    would assist.

20            Just a moment.  It may be if you would read it in English,

21    Mr. Groome, that maybe the way to get at it.

22            MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.  If the usher would hand it to me.

23    Quoting:  "I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole

24    truth, and nothing but the truth."

25            JUDGE MAY:  Could you repeat that, please, Mr. Witness?

Page 19325

 1            Start again, Mr. Groome?  Would you just take the document and

 2    just read the first phrase, and if the interpreters interpret it and then,

 3    Mr. Witness, if you would repeat it, please.

 4            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

 5            MR. GROOME:  "I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

 6    whole truth and --

 7            JUDGE MAY:  Just one phrase at a time.  Now, Mr. Witness, you're

 8    going to hear through your earphones a phrase, and it's the declaration

 9    that you will tell the truth, and we need to hear it before we can begin

10    your evidence.  What is going to happen is that counsel will read it out

11    phrase by phrase.  You will hear it repeated, and it will be for you then

12    to repeat it to us.

13            Let's try.  Just the very first phrase.

14            MR. GROOME:  "I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth."

15            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly -- I'm repeating as you

16    said it.  Yes.  Yes, I do.  I solemnly declare that I will speak the

17    truth.

18            MR. GROOME:  "The whole truth."

19            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The whole truth, and nothing but the

20    truth.

21            THE INTERPRETER:  Can you hear the English?  Can you hear the

22    English?

23            THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, Your Honour.

24            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.  Very well.

25            MR. GROOME:  "And nothing but the truth."

Page 19326

 1            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And nothing but the truth.

 2            JUDGE MAY:  Very well.  Thank you.  If you'd like to take a seat.

 3                          WITNESS:  WITNESS B-1701

 4                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

 5            MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, the Prosecution will be tendering a

 6    binder of exhibits.  We ask that a number be assigned at this stage.

 7            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, Prosecutor's Exhibit 430.

 8            MR. GROOME:  I ask that we begin by showing the witness

 9    Prosecutor's Exhibit 430, tab 1.

10                          Examined by Mr. Groome:

11       Q.   And, sir, I'd ask you to look at the name on the top of that sheet

12    and ask you do you recognise that as your own name?

13       A.   Yes, it is.

14       Q.   Throughout these proceedings, I and other members in Court will

15    refer to you as B-1701.

16            Sir, I'd ask you to begin your testimony here by describing for

17    the Chamber in a few sentences about the village of Glogova in the

18    municipality of Bratunac.  Can you please tell us approximately how big is

19    Glogova, and what was the ethnic make-up of that village?

20       A.   As to the ethnic composition, it was complex and everything was

21    very good.  We all cooperated very well, and there were no problems there

22    at all.  And there were 750 inhabitants of the village of Glogova.

23       Q.   Would I be correct in saying that Glogova was the second largest

24    community in the Bratunac municipality?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 19327

 1       Q.   I want to draw your attention to April of 1992.  Did there come a

 2    time when you observed large numbers of uniformed soldiers coming into the

 3    village of Glogova?

 4            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May?

 5            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.  What is the objection?

 6            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Why are we in private session?

 7            THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 8            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.  Yes, go on.

 9            MR. GROOME:

10       Q.   Sir, can you please answer that question?  Did there come a time

11    in April of 1992 that you saw large numbers of uniformed soldiers in the

12    vicinity of Bratunac?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   Can you please give the Chamber some idea about the quantity of

15    soldiers and describe how they were dressed?

16       A.   You want me to tell you how many soldiers there were?  Well, I

17    wasn't able to count them, but there were a lot of them.  There were a lot

18    of APCs and tanks, people in uniform wearing the JNA uniforms, all of

19    them.  There weren't any other type of uniform.  And that was around the

20    fountain and down to the out-patients' department as well, the health

21    centre.  On each corner and in front of every house there would be a

22    soldier and a woman, a female.

23       Q.   Sir, now --

24       A.   And they all had their rifles cocked.  On the buildings, at the

25    windows, up on the fountain I saw a machine-gun.

Page 19328

 1       Q.   Now, sir, I want to ask you a bit more specific -- a few more

 2    specific questions about the uniforms.  You described them as being JNA

 3    uniforms.  Was there anything else that some of these soldiers were

 4    wearing that appeared to you to be not part of the standard JNA uniform?

 5       A.   I wasn't able to notice anything like that.

 6            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The fountain is, in fact,

 7    the Hotel Fontana.

 8            MR. GROOME:

 9       Q.   Now you've mentioned seeing some APCs, armoured personnel carriers

10    and tanks.  Can you approximate for the Chamber how many tanks you saw and

11    how many APCs you saw?

12       A.   Approximately 10 to 15 vehicles that I saw there where I walked

13    past.

14       Q.   I want to now draw your attention to a period after that.  Did

15    there come a time when the president of your local community of Glogova

16    informed you and other villagers that you needed to come to the community

17    centre to hear a speech?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   And what was the name of the president of your local community?

20       A.   Nezir Ibisevic.

21       Q.   And did you go to the local community centre as you were

22    instructed to do by him?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   While you were there, were you addressed by somebody who you knew

25    regarding the surrender of weapons?

Page 19329

 1       A.   Yes, that's right.  Miroslav Deronjic.

 2       Q.   Can you please tell us in a sentence or two the substance of what

 3    Miroslav Deronjic told you at that time?

 4       A.   He told us that we were to take down all the hunting rifles and to

 5    hand them over, that we shouldn't panic, and that our hunting rifles would

 6    be returned to us eventually.

 7       Q.   Did he make any assurances to you and the other people there at

 8    that time that you would not be harmed?

 9       A.   Yes.

10            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters ask to connect to the second

11    microphone for the witness, please.

12            MR. GROOME:  They're asking for the second microphone to be turned

13    on.

14       Q.   Sir, sometime after you heard the speech by Mr. Deronjic did you

15    have a conversation with a person by the name of Ramo Ibisevic?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   Can you tell us in substance what it was you and Mr. Ibisevic

18    discussed?

19       A.   I went to the shop, which is where Ramo Ibisevic's son was

20    working.  I wanted to take some goods.  Ramo arrived.  There were some six

21    or seven of us.  And he said to us -- he said, "This evening I saw a truck

22    going by on the macadamised road up to the bridge, and the person was

23    handing out weapons.  They were all machine-guns and that type of weapon."

24    That's what he told us.

25       Q.   Did he specify the ethnicity of the people that were receiving

Page 19330

 1    these weapons?

 2       A.   He didn't tell us anything with respect to the ethnicity.  He

 3    didn't see anything.  But it was at the Magasici village and that he saw

 4    Miroslav Deronjic there, he was there, and all this was by Magasici

 5    village.

 6       Q.   And Magasici village, what was the ethnic composition of that

 7    village?

 8       A.   It's the local community of Glogova.  Is that what you're asking

 9    me?

10       Q.   No.  Was there a predominant ethnic group in that village in

11    Magasici?

12       A.   It was half/half.  There wasn't -- half/half.  Muslims and Serbs.

13       Q.   Sometime after that was there another meeting in front of

14    Mehmed Ibisevic's house with respect to the surrender of weapons?

15       A.   Yes, that's right.

16       Q.   Can you orient us with respect to the time?  What's your best

17    recollection of when this second meeting took place?

18       A.   Roughly, I can't tell you exactly, but about four days prior to

19    the burning of the village.  Three or four days before the village was

20    burnt down.

21       Q.   And who addressed you on that occasion?

22       A.   Miroslav Deronjic spoke to us.  He came to the gates of the

23    schoolyard.  He said, "Don't be afraid.  No need to panic."  Some people

24    asked questions, and he said, "Your -- you want to kill us with our own

25    rifles," and he said, "No," and that's what he said.

Page 19331

 1       Q.   The person you're describing as Deronjic, can you summarise for us

 2    what you knew him about him, what position he held or what you knew about

 3    him at that time?

 4       A.   I don't know his position or anything like that.  I just knew him

 5    when he was a child and when he went to school, when he was a schoolboy.

 6    I knew him very well then and I knew his father too.  We were all friends

 7    and I can't say anything on that score.  We were all friends.  Later on he

 8    went to school, and what happened afterwards, I don't know. And I never

 9    knew what position he occupied, what post.

10       Q.   Did there come a time when you actually did surrender your weapon

11    or members of your village did in fact surrender their weapons?

12       A.   Yes, we did surrender the very next day.  We surrendered our

13    weapons by Ibisevic's house, next to Ibisevic's house.

14       Q.   And can you tell us briefly who you surrendered these weapons to?

15       A.   Well, I can't remember exactly, but there were three or four

16    policemen.  One of them was wearing civilian clothes, and they issued

17    permits.  But there was no stamp on the permit or anything like that, and

18    nobody could read --

19            THE INTERPRETER:  Receipt, sorry.  Interpreter's note.

20       Q.   So when you and others handed in their weapons, those people were

21    given a receipt to show that they had surrendered their weapon; correct?

22       A.   Yes, that's right.  Yes.

23       Q.   Now, shortly after this event, did you come to realise that

24    Glogova had been surrounded?

25       A.   Yes.  When we handed over our weapons, it was already surrounded

Page 19332












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 19333

 1    with the tanks, with the APCs, and the army.  And there was shooting from

 2    all sides.  But they didn't shoot at the people.  They shot up into the

 3    air.

 4       Q.   Based upon your observations that day, would it have been possible

 5    for you or other members of your village to leave the village at that

 6    time?

 7       A.   Well, I don't know.  We were so excited and upset.  We didn't know

 8    what to do with our lives.  That's the state we were in.

 9       Q.   The people that surrounded your village at this -- at this stage,

10    were you able to see what they were wearing?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   Please describe in a sentence or two what you recall about what

13    they were wearing.

14       A.   Well, we couldn't see the army, but we saw the tanks and such

15    like.  All of them were wearing the uniform of the Yugoslav People's Army.

16       Q.   Was there anything that they were wearing that was out of uniform

17    as far as you could tell?

18       A.   I apologise, but I don't understand your question.  What is it

19    you're asking me?  Could you repeat, please?

20       Q.   Did you see two tank drivers, and if you did, could you describe

21    what if anything they had on their head?

22       A.   Thank you, yes.  It's clear to me now.  I did see those two tank

23    drivers from the waist up.  They stood on the asphalt road.  They got out

24    and talked with the people that were around them, and I saw the cockades

25    and the wide sort of caps that they had on their heads.

Page 19334

 1       Q.   Now --

 2       A.   With the five-pointed star on them.

 3       Q.   Later that evening did you watch a news programme

 4    from -- broadcast from Belgrade?

 5       A.   Yes.  Let's go in the proper order.  When we handed in our

 6    weapons, we were surrounded.  I went home.  Then there was shooting all

 7    around.  A bullet whizzed by.  They were shooting into the air.  And then

 8    they left.

 9            Now, whether the army had left from the hills, I didn't see, but

10    the tanks and the transporters, the APCs, left.

11            And I was watching the Belgrade news programme.  They were

12    praising us in Glogova, that we were the best people, that we had handed

13    in our weapons as we should have.  However, the next day they attacked us

14    and killed us.

15       Q.   Okay.  Now, you say the next day.  Are you able to recall with

16    precision the day that the village was attacked?

17       A.   I remember very well.  I can never forget that for as long as I

18    live.  On the 9th of May, in the morning, at 6.00 a.m.

19       Q.   Can you please describe your observations at 6.00 a.m. that

20    morning?

21       A.   I woke up.  I heard shooting.  And as houses were burning, I ran

22    out of the house.  I got frightened.  All the houses were burning except

23    the two next to mine.  And I turned into my maize field and I reached a

24    small thicket.  I lit a cigarette.  They came up to my house, set fire to

25    it and moved on.  I stayed there and they went on.

Page 19335

 1            They set fire to all the houses.  The hay, whatever could burn,

 2    they set alight.

 3            Then they came back in line, and they were approaching me.  And

 4    they said, "Don't hurt him.  Give him over to me."

 5            My house was burning.  We stopped there.  He wouldn't let me sit

 6    down or anything.  He kept me there.

 7       Q.   Sir, let me ask you a few specific questions about this event.

 8    Prior to waking up that morning, was there ever any armed resistance or

 9    any conflict of any sort in the village of Glogova?

10       A.   No.

11       Q.   Now, you've referred to a group, and you've read to as "they."

12    Can you please tell us as best you're able how many people were in this

13    group and if you would describe what you recall about they were wearing.

14       A.   Like the fire brigade uniforms.  That uniform is what they wore.

15    And they were carrying some incendiary material.  They must have been

16    using some inflammable solution, because that is how they set the houses

17    on fire.

18       Q.   Were they wearing anything to cover their faces?

19            JUDGE MAY:  Just help us with this:  For a moment don't deal with

20    the -- just a moment.  Just a moment, please.  Just assist us if you

21    would.

22            You refer to "they" all the time.  They were doing this in the

23    village.  They were setting fire to the houses.  Who was it that you're

24    referring to, please.

25            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The army.  The army.  I'm sorry.

Page 19336

 1    That's what I meant.  That is the words I use.

 2            MR. GROOME:

 3       Q.   And approximately how many members of the army did you see on that

 4    morning?

 5       A.   That morning when they came back towards me and caught me, I

 6    couldn't count them.  They were surrounding me and going right down to the

 7    commercial centre.

 8       Q.   Were they wearing anything on their faces?

 9       A.   No.  I didn't see them anything.  But those people who came up to

10    me, they had -- were masked with stockings over their heads.

11       Q.   On that morning, did you hear an explosion?

12       A.   Yes, I did.  I heard an explosion, but I didn't know where it came

13    from until Ibisevic Mehmed told me that it was his house right next to the

14    mosque across the road, and a hand-held grenade was fired and this hit the

15    minaret of the mosque and destroyed it.

16       Q.   Now, sir, while you were hiding in your cornfield, did you make

17    observations of what this group was doing at the houses of your

18    neighbours?

19       A.   They weren't doing anything.  Whoever they found in the house they

20    would chase out and force them to go towards the commercial centre, and

21    the others would follow and start the fires.

22       Q.   I'm going to ask you or put to you the name of some of the people

23    who lived in the area, and I'd ask you to comment briefly on what you

24    observed about what happened at these individual houses.  The first home

25    I'd like to ask you is the home of Medo Delic.  Did you see what happened

Page 19337

 1    at Medo Delic's house?

 2       A.   Yes, I did.

 3       Q.   Please describe.

 4       A.   From up there as the soldiers came through the

 5    houses -- Medo Delic was a sick man.  He was 60 years old, and he was a

 6    pensioner.  They found him.  They forced him out, and they started to beat

 7    him.  They forced him about 10 metres from the house, and they were

 8    slapping him.  And then one of them just killed him with his gun.

 9       Q.   Sir, can I draw your attention now to the house of Seco -- the

10    home of Seco Ibisevic.  Can you describe what if anything you observed

11    occur at that house?

12       A.   I saw another group which was coming towards Ibisevic Seco's

13    house.  There were three women in that group.  And they called Seco out.

14    He came out in front of his house as well as his wife Zlatija.  They

15    started mistreating him.  I couldn't really hear very well because it was

16    quite a long way from me.  But I had a view across the meadow.  They asked

17    him, "Where is your son, Nezir, president of the local community?"

18       Q.   I want to draw your attention to the house -- the home of

19    Adem Junuzovic.

20       A.   Adem Junuzovic's house.  They chased him towards -- they chased

21    them towards Adem's house.  And when I was forced out -- and I saw some

22    blood right up to Adem's house.  They also forced Adem out of the house

23    and into a meadow 10 or 15 metres away.  They separated Adem and Zlatija

24    to the right and Seco to the left.  Then the women were there.  They

25    cursed, and then they killed Zlatija and Adem with a pistol.  And to the

Page 19338

 1    left of where Seco was there was a machine-gun was used.  And I saw him

 2    sitting in a ditch, as if he were still alive.

 3       Q.   Sir, now you've just referred to some women.  The women that

 4    you're referring to in your last answer, were they members of the village

 5    that was under attack or were they members of the group that attacked the

 6    village, the soldiers?

 7       A.   They were with those soldiers who had attacked the village, and

 8    they were also wearing uniforms.

 9       Q.   At the time that you saw Seco sitting there, were you able to tell

10    whether he was alive or dead?

11       A.   He was dead, but he looked as if he was alive.  That was the

12    position he had in the ditch.  He was in a seating position -- sitting

13    position.

14       Q.   Did there come a time when you were taken into custody by this

15    group?

16       A.   This group of men -- a second group of men came that were forming

17    the encirclement.  There were those next to Seco's house.  They were the

18    groups inside that were searching the houses and capturing people.

19       Q.   I'm going to ask that the witness now be shown Prosecution Exhibit

20    430, tab 2.

21            Sir, while this exhibit is being brought to you, did there come a

22    time when you assisted an investigator of the Office of the Prosecutor for

23    that investigator to draw a map of the area where the events you've

24    described today occurred?

25       A.   Yes.  Yes.

Page 19339

 1       Q.   Is exhibit -- tab 2 in front of you a copy of that map?

 2       A.   Yes, it is.

 3       Q.   Thank you.

 4            MR. GROOME:  I'm finished with that.

 5            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6            MR. GROOME:

 7       Q.   Sir, after you were taken into custody, where were you brought?

 8       A.   Very took us towards the shopping centre.  On the way there, I was

 9    escorting my mother, holding her by the arm.  I do apologise.  And then

10    they said, "Go up there to Mujo's house."  There was a trailer.  They were

11    gathering the men there.  He started beating us.

12       Q.   Were you yourself beaten, sir?

13       A.   Yes.  On the head with a -- the handle of an axe, and with a pick,

14    the handle of a pick on our backs.

15       Q.   At this point in time, the people who were doing these things, did

16    they appear to you to be part of the same group that initially attacked

17    the village?

18       A.   I couldn't notice.  They were soldiers, anyway, wearing JNA

19    uniforms.  With stockings over their head you can't recognise anyone. And

20    we weren't even allowed to look to the side.  We were told to look at a

21    pillar, at Mujo Osmanvic's house.  If anyone turned his head, he would get

22    a bullet in the back of his head or in the temple.

23       Q.   After being taken into custody, did you ever see

24    Miroslav Deronjic?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 19340

 1       Q.   Where did you see him?

 2       A.   I saw him right there where we were.  Actually, when we were

 3    going, he was at the bus station in front of the house of -- I'm sorry.

 4    I've forgotten the name now.  Zaim Emanovic's house -- Beganovic, rather.

 5    He was standing at the station with a couple of men.  He didn't say

 6    anything.  We passed on.  And up there, as I have already said, they

 7    mistreated us.  Then he would come again after that.

 8            He turned his car around at Mujo Osmanvic's house and returned

 9    back.  I didn't see him again while we were there.

10            Then they lined us up on the asphalt.  We were kneeling in various

11    positions, and we had to look at this pillar of Mujo Osmanvic's house.

12       Q.   Sir --

13       A.   And then they took us back.  Yes.

14       Q.   When you were in front of Mujo Osmanvic's house, were the men from

15    the group separated from the women in the group?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   During this point in time, were you able to identify any of the

18    people perpetrating this, doing this, as being members of the community,

19    of the local Serb community?

20       A.   You couldn't recognise anyone.  They had these socks on their

21    heads.  They all wore the same uniforms.  There was nothing to distinguish

22    them by.  We couldn't recognise them, nor were we allowed to look.

23       Q.   Sir, did you witness the beating of Nezir Omerovic?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   And were you also present when his son was taken away to be

Page 19341

 1    beaten?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   Did there come a time when you saw or observed Nezir Omerovic

 4    being killed?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   Can you please briefly describe your observations regarding that

 7    event?

 8       A.   I personally saw when they took Nezir once down there to Dzafo's

 9    house and when they brought him back again twice.  Then they left him

10    there.  Then they took his son two times.  No.  I'm sorry.  The second

11    time, he didn't come back again.  They killed him in front of Dzafo

12    Delic's house.

13            Then Nezir was ordered to go towards Mujo's house.  He hadn't made

14    2 or 3 metres.  There was a burst of fire, and he fell on his stomach

15    dead.

16       Q.   Do you know a person by the name of Camil Rizvanovic?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   Did you see him on this day?

19       A.   Yes.  He was brought there in a wheelchair.  He was next to me,

20    right next to the road.

21       Q.   What happened to Mr. Rizvanovic?

22       A.   He was half in the wheelchair and half leaning against the wall.

23    And then a woman said, "Camil, where do you want me to shoot you, here or

24    here?  In the back or in the head?"  There were two bullets in the back,

25    and the third bullet in his head, and his nose was blown off.

Page 19342

 1            And then she jumped over someone.  I can't remember who it was.

 2    Mensur's nephew who had brought him in the wheelchair, she killed him too.

 3      No one else fired except her.  I didn't really see her kill him.  As she

 4    turned around towards me, she raised her pistol up into the air and it was

 5    still smoking.  Then she took off the mask from her face.  She took a

 6    bottle of brandy from another soldier, and she drank two or three -- an

 7    amount equal to three fingers from the bottle.

 8       Q.   Sir, did there come a time when you were ordered with a number of

 9    other men to collect some of the dead bodies and bring them somewhere?

10       A.   Yes.  Others continued killing people, and we were then ordered to

11    carry the dead in front of Dzafo Delic's house.  We reached Dzafo Delic's

12    house, and they said, "Take it to the river.  Take them to the river."

13            Then the soldiers lined up as if they were going to a cemetery to

14    carry the dead.  They were lined up up to the river, and then we carried

15    them there and we threw them right into the water.  That's what we had to

16    do.  And then we were ordered, me and some others, to carry some more.

17    And we headed towards there to carry those dead, and just then Nezir and

18    Selmo Omerovic hadn't thrown one into the river properly, and then someone

19    cursed him and said, "Throw him into the river."  He bent down to throw

20    the body in and he was shot at and killed.

21            Then Ibisevic Jusuf was standing in front of me, and he said -- he

22    asked Jusuf for money, and Jusuf says, "I gave whatever I had up there on

23    the road.  I have nothing else.  Surely, neighbour, you wouldn't kill

24    me.  We went to school together," I think he said or something like that.

25    I'm not quite sure about that.  "Surely you're not going to kill me.  I

Page 19343

 1    have two small children."

 2       Q.   Sir --

 3       A.   "You know yourself I am an invalid."

 4       Q.   I want to ask you some more specific questions about the carrying

 5    the bodies down to the river and about this area you've just got into.

 6            How many bodies were carried down on this first trip to the river?

 7       A.   Up to the river two of us would carry one body, so I really don't

 8    know how many.  We were out of our wits.  We were terrified.  And we

 9    carried those bodies and threw them into the river.  Then we came back

10    again a second time, and that is when I saw Deronjic.  And Jusuf said --

11            JUDGE MAY:  Just a moment.  I'm going to interrupt.  Of course

12    it's difficult, but, witness, can you try and give us some idea of how

13    many bodies you carried and were carried altogether to the river.

14            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I carried two bodies myself in all.

15            JUDGE MAY:  And can you give us any idea of how many others bodies

16    were carried to the river, a rough idea?

17            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We all carried two -- two bodies

18    each twice.  Twice.

19            MR. GROOME:

20       Q.   And approximately how many men carried these bodies on these two

21    trips?

22       A.   I can't tell you that, because we didn't dare look left or right,

23    nor do I know that exactly, how many of us there were.  There were 27 in

24    that group, that -- I know that for sure.

25            Now, I came back a second time with a group.  Then Camil was left

Page 19344












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Page 19345

 1    alone up there.  And after he was brought there in a wheelchair with

 2    Memisevic and his crutches and Omerovic's crutches.

 3       Q.   Sir, you've mentioned observing a number of people being killed up

 4    until this point.  My question to you is:  Were any of these people that

 5    you could see --

 6       A.   Yes, yes.

 7       Q.   -- Were any of these people armed or were they offering any type

 8    of resistance to the people that were attacking them?

 9       A.   No one had anything, no weapons, nor did they show any resistance.

10    How could they?  They didn't have any weapons.  There would be no sense in

11    doing that anyway.

12       Q.   Now, I want to draw your attention once again to what happened to

13    Jusuf Ibisevic.  You began to describe a conversation that he was having

14    with another person.  Can you please identify, if you're able, the other

15    person he was speaking with?

16       A.   Miroslav Deronjic.

17       Q.   Now, at this point in time were you able to see what

18    Miroslav Deronjic was wearing?

19       A.   Yes, I could see.  He was wearing a uniform, an officer's uniform

20    of the JNA, and a beret on his head, slanting to the right.

21       Q.   Did he have anything concealing his face?

22       A.   No.

23       Q.   Can you summarise for the Chamber what of that conversation you

24    could hear between Mr. Ibisevic and Mr. Deronjic?

25       A.   Jusuf turned to face him and say, "Neighbour, are you really going

Page 19346

 1    to kill me?  I have small children.  Can't you see that I am disabled?"

 2    That is what I saw him say.  And then this soldier killed Jusuf, firing

 3    three shots into his chest.

 4       Q.   Now --

 5       A.   And all the other people were shot in the head.

 6       Q.   Now, you're saying a soldier shot Jusuf.  Was that Deronjic or was

 7    that another person?

 8       A.   No, no.  It wasn't Deronjic.  A soldier who had a mask over his

 9    head.

10       Q.   And while this soldier shot Jusuf, did Mr. Deronjic do anything?

11       A.   No, nothing.  He just stood there.  He didn't react at all.  And

12    later on when I went up there to fetch the second group of people, he was

13    gone.  I didn't see him again.

14       Q.   Now, you've told us already about carrying a second set of bodies

15    to the river.  After that period of time, did you also see some bodies in

16    front of a person's house by the name of Dzafo?

17       A.   Dzafo Delic, yes.  I saw between seven and ten dead bodies,

18    including Nezir's son right next to the fence.

19       Q.   And could you just in a summary fashion tell us the type of injury

20    that you observed on those bodies?

21       A.   Their heads had been blown up.  Nezir's son's head was okay. He

22    was lying on his back.  You could see his face, he wasn't shot in the

23    head.  His face was okay.

24       Q.   Now, these dead bodies that you saw at this point in time, were

25    they men or women or a combination?

Page 19347

 1       A.   All men.  They were all men that were killed there.

 2       Q.   Now, you've told us about a person in a wheelchair, Mr. Camil

 3    Rizvanovic.  Did there come a time when you carried his body down to the

 4    river?

 5       A.   No.

 6       Q.   Did you see --

 7       A.   Ibisevic, no.  I apologise.

 8       Q.   Not Ibisevic.  Mr. Camil, the man in the wheelchair.

 9       A.   Camil Rizvanovic.

10       Q.   Yes.

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   Was his body carried down to the river?

13       A.   His body was carried later on.  When we brought the second set of

14    bodies, we were lined up close to the river.  And then they said, "You're

15    going up to the meadow past these dead."  And then we left turned and as I

16    turned I saw Ramiz Cosic.  I was the first and he was the second.  He was

17    up to here.  And as I turned around, his head disappeared.

18       Q.   Sir, so that we can better understand your evidence, after the

19    second -- you participated in bringing the second group of bodies to the

20    river, were you lined up along the river with some other men?

21       A.   We weren't lined up.  You mean those who were killed on the road

22    up there?  Is that what you're asking me.

23       Q.   I'm referring to -- did there come a time when you were asked to

24    stand by the riverbank or stand and face the river?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 19348

 1       Q.   How many other men were in the group with you?

 2       A.   There were ten of us.

 3       Q.   And can you please tell us what happened --

 4       A.   Actually, there were eight of us because they had killed Selmo and

 5    Jusuf.  So there were eight of us.  I'm sorry.  I apologise.

 6       Q.   That's okay.  Of the men that were lined up with you facing the

 7    river, did you know any of these men?

 8       A.   I only knew this Ramiz Cosic and Dzafo Delic.

 9       Q.   Can you please describe what happened after you and the other men

10    were lined up facing the river?

11       A.   What happened was that we were lined up facing the river, and they

12    said, "You go up towards those meadows."  And the order came, turn left,

13    and they opened fire on us.  And as I turned around and Ramiz Cosic's head

14    disappeared.  Then these others fell over me.  I fell over the others into

15    the water in the river.

16       Q.   Now, sir --

17       A.   Later on --

18       Q.   During this shooting, were you injured in any way?

19       A.   No.

20       Q.   What did you do after you were fired upon?

21       A.   Nothing.  What could I do?  I was completely beside myself.  I was

22    unconscious.  I didn't know what was going on.

23       Q.   Can you describe precisely where it was that you landed or ended

24    up after the men shot at you and the other group?

25       A.   We fell into the river over the other corpses.  I fell this way,

Page 19349

 1    to my right side.  And just this part of my nose was above water, and this

 2    ear.  The rest of me was in the water.  And Rizvanovic's brains had

 3    splattered across my neck.  And I was among the dead myself, the dead

 4    bodies myself.  And I was like that for four full hours.

 5       Q.   And did you remain in the river at that point for four hours

 6    submerged except for your nose?

 7       A.   Yes.  All except the tip of my nose and my left ear.  And I began

 8    to get cramps, and I was feverish.  I had no more strength left in me.  I

 9    thought they were going to kill me.

10       Q.   Can you please describe what, if anything, you recall about what

11    happened during that four hours that you lie partially submerged in the

12    riverbank?

13       A.   I was lying in the river, in the water, and I was wondering

14    whether I should raise my head to see if there was anybody around, to

15    whether I could try and hide.  And I looked across the bank and towards

16    Dzafo Delic's house and the asphalt road I saw some people.

17       Q.   Could you hear shooting continuing during that period?

18       A.   Yes, I could.  There's a small creek, a brook nearby.  This brook

19    was nearby, and on the other side of the brook they had lined up some

20    people and shot them, and there were 25 people in that group.

21       Q.   Did there come a time during that period that the body of Camil,

22    the man in the wheelchair, was discarded into the river?

23       A.   Yes.  I said a moment ago.  I mention this had a moment ago.

24    Mehmed Ibisevic brought Camil in his wheelchair.  And as I said, his

25    brains were splattered across my neck.  And when I got up, I saw that

Page 19350

 1    there was a piece of brain lodged in the neck of my shirt.

 2            And they said they were supposed to go up across the meadow up

 3    there.  And he was swearing at him.  I don't know what he said, but he

 4    said, "You thought you would survive the genocide and then flee to be a

 5    witness."  And he shot at him.  And just here on the right-hand side there

 6    was a piece of his shirt that was left intact.  Otherwise, all the rest

 7    was blown to smithereens.

 8       Q.   Did there come a time when you believed it was safe to move from

 9    the water?

10       A.   No, it wasn't safe because the army was close by.  You could hear

11    them shouting.  They would say, "Here he is," and then there'd be

12    shooting.  They'd shoot at the houses.  But it was high time for me to

13    leave the water.  And I got up, and I looked across and saw somebody round

14    a tree trunk.  I moved towards him.  I wasn't looking at him.  And I

15    thought, well, if he shoots, he shoots.  But this was a man called Saban.

16    I knew him.  He was a driver.  I knew his brother too.  And I said, "Well,

17    Saban, I've just been two metres away from you.  Why didn't you tell me to

18    get up?"  And I said, "Let's go off, Saban.  We'll go up to the houses,

19    get to there.  We can't stay here either."  And I was all feverish at the

20    time.  I was going to fall down, but I managed to stand up.

21            We went there.  The other group was killed.  And I was wondering

22    whether my son was among them.  He was with the young guys there.  No, he

23    wasn't.

24       Q.   Did your son die on that day?

25       A.   No, he didn't.  My son died later on in Konjevic Polje.  He was

Page 19351

 1    killed by a grenade.

 2            MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, would that be a convenient place to --

 3            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.  We will adjourn now.

 4            Witness B-1701, we're going to adjourn for 20 minutes.  Please

 5    don't speak to anybody about your evidence until it's over, and that does

 6    include the members of the Prosecution team.  Would you be back, please,

 7    in 20 minutes.

 8            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Thank you.

 9                          --- Recess taken at 12.18 p.m.

10                          --- On resuming at 12.40 p.m.

11            JUDGE MAY:  Yes, Mr. Groome.

12            MR. GROOME:  Sir, I want to ask you a just a few more questions

13    about what happened at the river.  Were you aware that other men were

14    killed in a similar way to the men around you at the river?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   Can you please describe any other killings that you have personal

17    knowledge about that occurred by the river on that day?

18       A.   Well, that other group when they brought them above the brook, the

19    brook a little way up from us, the command was, "Aim, fire.  Turn to the

20    left, aim, and fire," and that's what they did.

21       Q.   And approximately how many people were in that group?

22       A.   Twenty-five.

23       Q.   And can you give us -- were they men and women or one or the

24    other?

25       A.   All of them men.

Page 19352

 1       Q.   And can you give the Chamber some idea about the approximate ages

 2    of this group of men?

 3       A.   From 30 -- 18 to 30 years old.  Thirty would be the eldest in that

 4    group.

 5       Q.   And the people that escorted them down to the river, were you able

 6    to see how many people did that?

 7       A.   I saw them.  I raised my head to have a look, to see whether I

 8    should leave or not.  Then I looked towards the left.  There were the 25

 9    people, and four of them, four soldiers, with their automatic rifles

10    cocked at the ready, all of them.

11       Q.   Now, the other men in your group when they were shot at, were any

12    of them dressed in uniforms of any type?  I'm talking about the victims

13    now.

14       A.   No.  No, they weren't, no.  No, nobody had a uniform.  Where would

15    they get one from?  No.

16       Q.   Were any of those men armed in any way that you could see?

17       A.   No, nobody was.  Just the hunters, they had.  But nobody else had

18    any weapons, no, no.  Before, that is.

19       Q.   The group of 25 men, I want to ask you the same two questions.

20    Can you just describe were they in civilian clothes or uniforms, and did

21    you see any indication to you that any of those men were armed?

22       A.   No.  No.  They were all wearing civilian clothes.  Of course they

23    didn't have any uniforms, just civilians.  They were all young.  Fourteen

24    years, 30 years old was the oldest one, and a man with his two sons.  And

25    he was lying there with his -- embracing his two sons.

Page 19353

 1       Q.   Sir, in preparation of your testimony here today, did you work a

 2    member of the Office of the Prosecutor's staff to create a list of all the

 3    names of the people who you recall were killed on this day in Glogova?

 4       A.   Yes, I said who those people were.  I personally knew them, and I

 5    talked about them.  I said it, and that's what was written down.  I don't

 6    know how to explain it otherwise.

 7       Q.   And was this list read back to you and did you make any

 8    corrections or -- as it was read back to you, did you find it to be a

 9    correct --

10       A.   Yes, correct.  It was correct.

11       Q.   I'm going to ask you -- ask that you be shown Prosecution Exhibit

12    430, tab 3, and I'd ask you, sir, do you recognise your writing on the

13    bottom right-hand corner of that document?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   And is that the list of names that was read to you in preparation

16    of your testimony here today?

17       A.   Are you going to read it out?  I apologise.  Is that what you

18    said?  Do you mean you're going to read it out.

19       Q.   I'm not going to read it out now.  I'm asking you was this the

20    list that was read out to you prior to you signing in the bottom

21    right-hand corner?

22       A.   Yes, I see.  I apologise.  Yes, that is my signature, I did and

23    everything is correct.  All those people were there.

24            MR. GROOME:  Thank you.  I'm finished with that exhibit.

25       Q.   Sir, did there come a time when you were reunited with your

Page 19354

 1    family?

 2       A.   Yes.  In the evening, at about 7.30.

 3       Q.   And where did you find your family?

 4       A.   I found them up by the village in a little cluster of trees.

 5       Q.   Did you have an opportunity to return to your home and see what

 6    condition it was in?

 7       A.   Well, I wasn't able to return for about three days.  I apologise

 8    to have to say it this way, but I was so weak that that I urinated blood

 9    for three days.  I apologise to have to say that.

10            JUDGE MAY:  You don't have to apologise here.

11            MR. GROOME:

12       Q.   Sir, can you please describe what you observed about your village

13    when you returned it after three days?

14       A.   I found everything burnt.  There was nothing there.  That's what I

15    found, nothing, just a chicken here or there, but nothing.  Apart from

16    that, nobody, nothing.  I had three outhouses and things and nothing was

17    left.

18       Q.   Were you able to see the property of your neighbours, and can you

19    describe what condition that property -- those properties were in?

20       A.   The same as my own.  There was nothing there.  Everything was

21    razed to the ground.  It had all burnt down.  Everything that could burn

22    was burnt.

23       Q.   Sir, when you returned at this point in time, did you see military

24    vehicles in the area?

25       A.   Yes, I did.  I did.  They were moving from Kravice towards

Page 19355

 1    Bratunac, a column of vehicles, in fact.  They were singing.  They were

 2    shouting.  They were shooting.  You could hear music just like you can in

 3    hotels.  That's what it was like on the road towards Bratunac.

 4       Q.   During the course of the day that you've described for us where

 5    you made these observations regarding people being killed, at any time did

 6    you observe one of these soldiers attempting to prevent the killings that

 7    you saw or attempt to help these people in any way?

 8       A.   No, nobody.  Nobody said a word.

 9       Q.   Did there come a time when you returned to the river?

10       A.   Later on, yes.  Four or five days later with Ibisevic, Mehmed,

11    because they are the children of two brothers, and he wanted to bury them,

12    Mustafa and the other two sons.  And I said, "Mehmed, I can't.  I'm a sick

13    man.  I can't do anything with my hands."  And he said, "Please help me

14    bury my dead.  Do what you can.  I'll do most of it but just help me."

15    And so I went off with him, and it was foggy, there was a mist by the

16    river.  And Mustafa and his two sons, I helped him bury them.  And I

17    stopped to light a cigarette, and he said, "All right.  Go on.  Have a

18    smoke."  And I lit a cigarette when there were tractors suddenly that

19    appeared up on the road moving towards the dead from the place where I was

20    shot.  And they were loading them up, throwing them into the trailer of

21    the tractor and taking it to the schoolyard where they unloaded them.

22    What they did after that, I couldn't see.

23            And those villagers were never found.  Some of them had been

24    buried otherwise, but nobody could be found in that lot.

25       Q.   Sir, can you give the Chamber some sense of the number of bodies

Page 19356

 1    that lay along the riverbanks when you returned with your friend?

 2       A.   Well, I was in that group of 52.  There were 52 of us, and by

 3    Mujo Osmanvic's house they separated us in the shopping centre.  They took

 4    some away to the shopping centre and 26 of us remained.  And all those

 5    were killed except myself.  I'm the only one that survived.  Nobody else

 6    survived and I don't remember that anybody survived.  I never saw anybody

 7    after that.  Nobody turned up.

 8            Perhaps -- I thought that perhaps somebody had managed to escape,

 9    but if they had, I would have heard of them or seen them, or someone

10    would.  So I don't know.

11            MR. GROOME:  I have no further questions, Your Honour.

12            JUDGE MAY:  Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

13            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I will bear in mind the age

14    of this witness.  I will take that into consideration and the degree to

15    which the witness is upset by all this.  I'll try and make my questions

16    brief and as simple as possible, although this might take up a little more

17    time doing it that way.

18                          Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

19       Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. 1701, I have noted down here what you said,

20    what you quoted.  Actually, you quoted somebody else as saying, and it is

21    the quotation where he says:  "You thought you would survive the genocide

22    to be a witness."  That's what somebody said as you yourself say. Somebody

23    shouted that out.  Could you explain that to us, please?  Who said this?

24    Who did it refer to, and what was actually happening?  What happened?

25       A.   The soldier said that, the soldier that shot at us.  And he shot

Page 19357












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Page 19358

 1    at me too.  He swore at me, and he said, "Mehmed, you thought you would

 2    survive the genocide."

 3            And I'd like to ask one question, and I would like to have an

 4    answer to my question.  But otherwise, I don't want to have any further

 5    conversation.

 6            JUDGE MAY:  Now, look, we know that this is an ordeal for you, a

 7    very real ordeal for you because the events you have to describe are

 8    terrible ones, but you are here to give evidence.  We know that it's more

 9    difficult because the accused is appearing in person and asking the

10    questions of you.  But he has the right to do that, and it will help us to

11    evaluate your evidence if you answer his questions.

12            We will make sure that he is in no way offensive.  He said he

13    would not be.  We will make sure that he's not.  But perhaps you would

14    answer the questions that he asks.  Answer them fairly shortly, if you

15    would, and we will be able to get through the evidence more quickly.

16            Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

17            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18       Q.   Tell me, please, to the best of your recollection, how many people

19    in total was killed that day or during those days in Glogova?

20       A.   On that day, 72 men were killed in Glogova, although there were

21    some women too.  There were two women, and they were not able to move.

22    They were invalids.  But I'm talking about the ones that were shot by

23    firing squad.  And I know of the 72 on that day.  As to the rest, I don't

24    know.  I didn't see it.  So I'm not going to talk about what I didn't see

25    myself.

Page 19359

 1       Q.   So you saw 72 people being killed; is that right?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   You counted them?

 4       A.   Yes, I did.  I counted the group up there, the group when I turned

 5    up.  There were women and men there, and there were about 16 in that one.

 6       Q.   But I wasn't able to arrive at that figure from what you were

 7    saying, because you said that by the water there were eight of you, before

 8    that there were ten.  You first said there were ten and that there were

 9    eight later on.  And then you spoke of a group of 25.  That's right, isn't

10    it?

11       A.   Milosevic, you either didn't understand me or you want to mislead

12    me.

13            Eight of us stayed behind, remained, survived, that were not shot,

14    and then they were shot later on.  Or you didn't understand me or you want

15    to ask me something else.

16       Q.   Well, tell me how many inhabitants does your village have?

17       A.   I've already said that.

18            JUDGE MAY:  I don't think you have, actually.  You told us that a

19    number of -- you're quite right.  Seven hundred and fifty.  Yes, you did.

20            Yes, Mr. Milosevic, 750 is the answer.

21            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22       Q.   Were they all there when all this was going on, when all this was

23    happening?

24       A.   Well, no, they weren't all in the village.  Some of them were

25    abroad.  No, they weren't all there in the village.  They all over the

Page 19360

 1    place, scattered everywhere, in Serbia, Macedonia, all over the place, not

 2    only in Glogova.  People had jobs.  They were employed in other parts.

 3       Q.   All right.  Tell me this:  How many, in your assessment, people

 4    were in the village when these events came to pass, the events that you

 5    described happened in the village?

 6       A.   In the village, how should I know?  I didn't count how many people

 7    were in the village and how many were off working somewhere.  I don't know

 8    that.

 9       Q.   Very well.  Now let's move on then.  From what I have here in

10    front of me, you gave your statement to the investigators of the Tribunal

11    in March 2002; is that right?

12            JUDGE MAY:  If that's the date on it, just put that.

13            March 2002; is that right?

14            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  I'm asking whether he gave the

15    statement in March 2002.

16            JUDGE MAY:  Do you remember -- do you remember, Witness B-1701,

17    can you remember when you made your statement?

18            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's not March 2002 when on

19    the 9th of May is when these killings took place.  And I consider myself

20    to have been killed as well with all the others.  So how could that be?

21            JUDGE MAY:  Mr. Milosevic, take it that it was March.

22            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23       Q.   Very well.  In March 2002, you gave a statement to the

24    investigators of this opposite side.  However, you also made statements to

25    the state commission for collecting facts about war crimes, didn't you, in

Page 19361

 1    Bosnia and Herzegovina?

 2       A.   Yes.  Yes.  I told them everything I knew.  What I don't know, I

 3    won't say.  I won't use that.  I don't need to.  Whatever is true, I will

 4    say.  Whatever isn't, I won't.

 5       Q.   Very well.  But in 1995, in June, you also gave a statement to

 6    representatives of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Bosnia and

 7    Herzegovina and the state security; is that right?

 8       A.   I am -- I apologise.  I don't know.  I don't know exactly.  I

 9    can't remember the date because I'm an illiterate man anyway.  I do

10    apologise, but I won't know.

11       Q.   But you remember giving a statement in 1995, don't you?

12       A.   I don't remember.  It's not in my memory.

13       Q.   And do you remember a statement given to the state commission on

14    the 30th of January, 1998?

15       A.   No, I don't remember.

16       Q.   Please, be kind enough and have a look at this statement that you

17    gave on the 19th of July, 1995.

18            JUDGE MAY:  No, unless there's something on it which he's going to

19    recognise.  If he can't read it, there's not much point.

20            Is there something on there he might be able to recognise?

21            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I was given his statement

22    from the opposing side.  I couldn't have obtained it from anyone else.  It

23    has a number.

24            JUDGE MAY:  I'm not suggesting you have obtained it from anywhere

25    else.  But there's not much point giving him the statement in the

Page 19362

 1    circumstances, unless there's a signature or something on it which he

 2    might be able to recognise.

 3            MR. GROOME:  If I can be of some assistance.  There is a signature

 4    on it, so I believe there may be --

 5            JUDGE MAY:  Certainly.  Let the witness see it.

 6            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

 7       Q.   So this record of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, state security

 8    service Tuzla, is dated the 19th of July, 1995.  And this is a record that

 9    you signed.  So please have a look at it.

10            JUDGE MAY:  Let the witness see the document.  Do you see your

11    signature or mark on that?

12            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.

13            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.  Does that help you to remember whether you made

14    a statement to the ministry in 1995 or not?

15            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said, and I apologise because I am

16    an illiterate man, I may have, but I don't know.  I can't remember.

17            JUDGE MAY:  No need to apologise for not remembering.  People do

18    forget things all the time.

19            Yes.  Yes.  The witness has seen that.  If you'd like to pass that

20    back and the usher can sit down.

21            Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

22            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

23            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24       Q.   At the time, that is, eight years ago, in 1995 when you gave this

25    statement to the Ministry of internal affairs of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

Page 19363

 1    you testified about events which had happened only a few years prior to

 2    that, that is in 1992 and in 1991; is that right?  And you gave that

 3    statement in 1995; is that right?

 4       A.   No.  I didn't give any statements in 1992.  I don't remember that

 5    at all.

 6       Q.   But you just saw the statement that you signed.

 7       A.   Yes.  I recognise the signature.  I recognise that, that's true,

 8    but I don't remember.

 9       Q.   My question is:  That it is only natural that in 1995 when you

10    gave that statement, your memories about events that took place three

11    years prior to that were fresher than in 2002 when you made this

12    statement?

13            JUDGE MAY:  He does not remember making the statement, so there's

14    not much point pursuing that.  But you can put anything you wish in the

15    statement provided it's relevant.

16            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.  I really don't know,

17    Mr. May, how I can cross-examine the witness having heard these

18    explanations.

19            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have said you have nothing to

20    question me about in that way.  I said that I recognised my signature,

21    that is true.  And what I haven't signed is not true, and I don't want to

22    talk about those things.  I don't want you to ask me questions that are

23    not under consideration.

24            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25       Q.   Mr. B-1701, you are now saying you didn't give this statement in

Page 19364

 1    1995.

 2       A.   Please don't confuse me, because I'm under stress, and I don't

 3    want to talk about my statements.  They're not important.  I don't want to

 4    talk about any questions.  I don't have any patience.

 5            JUDGE MAY:  Now, just a moment.  It may be -- wait a moment.  It

 6    may be the simplest way forward is to exhibit these statements if you want

 7    that, Mr. Milosevic.  It doesn't look as though we're going to get much

 8    further forward with the witness, but there may be matters in it which you

 9    want to draw to our attention, and you can do that by exhibiting the

10    statements.

11            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May.  I assume that I

12    can ask him at least questions about this statement, that is dated the

13    2nd, 3rd, and 4th of March, 2002, the statement that he gave to the

14    investigators.

15            JUDGE MAY:  Yes, you can.  We'll see how far we get.

16            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17       Q.   You say, Mr. 1701 -- you start your statement, the statement of

18    2002 by saying:  "I had made a statement to the Bosnian police in mid-July

19    1995."  Then you go on to say:  "I find it is not a detailed statement

20    about all the events that took place, and also it contains certain facts

21    that did not occur in that order.  During the taking of the statement

22    several errors were made, and that statement was not read back to me at

23    the time and I was not able to correct any mistakes," et cetera.

24            So in this statement which you gave to the investigators, you

25    confirmed a prior statement that was given, but you say that it wasn't

Page 19365

 1    read out to you at the time.

 2            So it is not correct.  Can we agree on that?

 3       A.   I don't know what you mean it's not correct.

 4       Q.   I'm quoting what you said.

 5            JUDGE MAY:  Does that help you remember or not?

 6            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember.

 7            JUDGE MAY:  Very well.  Just go on to the next -- go on to the

 8    next question.

 9            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10       Q.   Are you aware that the statement you gave eight years ago differs

11    in many respects from the statements that you gave eight years later?

12    That is, there's a big difference between the one of 1995 and the one of

13    2002.  Can you explain the difference?

14       A.   I don't know.  I don't see that there were any differences.  I

15    don't know.  I don't remember that.  I am just sticking to my statements,

16    the statements that I gave.  I may have changed them.  I can't remember

17    that.  There may have been changes and mistakes which I corrected.

18            I won't say things that didn't happen.  That's for sure, no, only

19    what is correct and true.

20       Q.   Very well then.  And at paragraph 3 of this statement that you

21    gave to the investigators, you talk about your village, and you say, this

22    is paragraph 3, page 2 of the witness statement:  "There were about 750

23    houses in Glogova."

24       A.   The numbers of houses.  I don't know what you call them, something

25    like that.

Page 19366

 1       Q.   "And I would estimate the population was more than 2.000."  Is

 2    that right?

 3       A.   Yes, it is.

 4       Q.   Correct?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   Is that correct?

 7       A.   Yes, it is.

 8       Q.   And do you have any rough idea when those events occurred, out of

 9    those 2.000 inhabitants, were at least a half in the village?

10       A.   I apologise.  Please don't confuse me.  You're jumping from one

11    thing to another.  I am an illiterate man.  I won't say what is not true.

12    I won't make up things.  No, I haven't come to make things up, only what I

13    saw, and that's what I want to speak about.  What I don't know I won't

14    say.  I don't want to lie, to say there were 1.000 or 2.000 inhabitants

15    there, no.  They were all over the place; there were some in Serbia and

16    all over, abroad.  Now I can't say whether there were 1.000, or 2 or 5 or

17    10.  I can't say because I don't know how many there were.

18       Q.   Very well.  You won't say how many there were?

19       A.   It's not that I don't want to say.  I don't want to lie.  If I

20    knew exactly how many people were there at the time I would say, just as I

21    told you about the other things I knew about.

22       Q.   So you say that you were on very good terms with Serbs but that

23    everything started to change in January 1992 when you noticed certain

24    changes in the behaviour of the Serbs.

25       A.   There was nothing you could say that was bad in relationship

Page 19367

 1    between Muslims and Serbs.  We all lived like brothers together.

 2       Q.   So you lived in harmony?

 3       A.   Yes, absolutely.  We had parties.  Everything, everything was

 4    fine.  There was never anything bad said to somebody, anybody insulting

 5    somebody else.  That's out of the question.

 6       Q.   That is also what I have heard, and that's why I wanted to ask you

 7    about it.

 8            Now, tell me now, you lived there all your life.

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   Is it true that already at the beginning of September 1990, 1990,

11    1990, the founding rally was held of the Party of Democratic Action in

12    your village?

13       A.   No.

14       Q.   You don't remember?

15       A.   No.

16       Q.   And do you remember that there were more than a thousand people

17    demonstrating in the streets, and they started threatening and chanting

18    slogans, "Bosnia is Muslim and Serbia is Serb," and addressing threats to

19    Serbs in September 1990 in your own village?

20       A.   That is not true.

21       Q.   And do you know anything at all about the activities and -- no.

22    Let me ask you first whether you know anything about the activities of the

23    Party of Democratic Action in your village, the SDA?

24       A.   No.  There were no rallies, nothing to form an army from.  That's

25    how I understand your question.  I think that's what you mean.  There was

Page 19368

 1    nothing along those lines.

 2       Q.   Very well.  But do you remember that already in mid-1991, 1991,

 3    the leadership of the SDA party organised the illegal purchase of weapons

 4    and the formation of military units and the preparation of plans to

 5    capture facilities and training in surrounding villages?

 6       A.   No, that is not true.

 7       Q.   Oh, that's not true, is it?

 8       A.   No, it isn't.  That is not true.

 9       Q.   Do you know a man by the name of Rizvo Muhic [phoen]?

10       A.   No.

11       Q.   He formed a unit of 50 fighters.

12       A.   Which village is he from?

13       Q.   From your area.

14       A.   Yes, but from which area?  What village?

15            JUDGE MAY:  I think it's alleged it's your village.

16            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You can't ask me things that are out

17    of the question.

18            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19       Q.   All right.  You don't know, so say no.

20       A.   I don't know that man at all.  He's not from my village, nor have

21    I ever heard of that name.  That's what I'm interested about.

22       Q.   Do you know that any illegal units were formed by the SDA in your

23    area or in your village or in the Bratunac municipality?

24       A.   No, I don't know anything about that.  How would they form them,

25    with bare arms, with no weapons?

Page 19369

 1       Q.   And in those days at the end of 1990 and in 1991 and the beginning

 2    of 1992, did you attend a sports or cultural event or any kind of popular

 3    event in your village?

 4       A.   What year?

 5       Q.   Well, let's say, for example, throughout 1991.  Was there a single

 6    sports, cultural, or any other event in your village that you attended?

 7       A.   No.  I had two girls that might have gone there.  I didn't go

 8    there.  Why would I go where they go?  So I didn't go.

 9            What is important is that I didn't hear of any problems arising,

10    that -- any squabbles between people.

11       Q.   Didn't you hear that all those events were along the lines that

12    the Serbs should go to Serbia?

13       A.   Milosevic, please don't ask me those things.  That is not true.

14    What we were saying then, we are saying today.  In Republika Srpska,

15    they're saying, "This is our state, Serbia, not Bosnia and Herzegovina."

16    And my property is over there, and I can't go there.  So don't ask me

17    these questions about all these things but only the things that I have

18    been talking about.

19            JUDGE MAY:  Now -- Witness, Witness B-1701, don't get upset about

20    this.  Don't address the accused.  You're giving evidence to the Court, so

21    can you confine your answers to us.  If you don't know, just say so.

22            Mr. Milosevic, let's move on.

23            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24       Q.   All right then.  I'm asking you about very concrete events,

25    Mr. 1701.  Do you remember the case of the primary school in Kravice, for

Page 19370












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 19371

 1    example, where for decades children went to school there from the

 2    neighbouring villages?  They received education, and there was absolutely

 3    no problem.

 4            Do you remember that then these activists of the SDA who didn't

 5    want their children to become mixed with Serbian children organised an

 6    ethnically pure school in Konjevic Polje by they named Babovic Hamza and

 7    religious instruction --

 8            JUDGE MAY:  I'm going to stop you.  What is the point of all this?

 9    This witness has described a mass of executions which occurred in the

10    village.  That's his evidence.  Now, it's not going to assist us to know

11    about the division of schools or anything of the like.

12            If you've got some direct questions, not purely political ones,

13    some direct questions, particularly anything which applies to what

14    happened in the village during the day which he has described, you can ask

15    it.  But this is a waste of time to discuss these political matters.

16            You can't justify -- you're not saying, are you, that some

17    justification for these killings of that sort, a political justification?

18    Is that what you're saying?

19            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, not a single crime can be

20    justified by another crime being committed.  What I'm trying to do is to

21    hear the facts which indicate the truthfulness of the event.  So we're not

22    dealing here with an attempt on my part to justify one crime by another

23    crime.

24            JUDGE MAY:  Very well.

25            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] However, the witness --

Page 19372

 1            JUDGE MAY:  Very well.  But we're not assisted by a political

 2    discussion early on.  Of course you can challenge the evidence if you want

 3    and you can put an alternative account if you want, but it seems to me

 4    we're quite a long way from the main event.

 5            Now, move on to something else.

 6            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, the witness started his

 7    testimony today, the examination-in-chief, by talking about the collection

 8    of weapons, and I assume you remember that.

 9            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.  If you want to ask him about that, of course you

10    can, or if you want to put an alternative account you can put that.  But

11    dealing with the events in primary schools is not going to assist.

12            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.  He does not know about

13    the primary school.  I am talking about the events which led to tensions,

14    caused the tensions and led to the chaos that ensued.

15            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16       Q.   Now, do you know that in the course of 1991 the weapons of the

17    Territorial Defence, which was something that all the companies and

18    factories had, was stolen, they were stolen and taken to Muslim villages?

19    Over 1.000 automatic rifles, in fact, and semi-automatic rifles and

20    machine-guns and a vast quantity of ammunition along with it and other

21    materiel; do you remember that?

22       A.   No.  No.  The weapons -- let me tell you straight away that that

23    is not true.  All the weapons that existed in the local communities, as

24    you said, all of that was taken away to Serbia.

25       Q.   To a Serb village?

Page 19373

 1       A.   To Bratunac and everything else.

 2            THE INTERPRETER:  To SUP Bratunac.  Interpreter's correction.  "To

 3    SUP Bratunac."

 4            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So where would we get it from?  We

 5    didn't have anything there.  Where would we have got it from?  That's what

 6    I'm interested in.

 7            Well, you're talking about the school opened in Konjevic Polje.

 8    You asked me that question.  You asked me about Kravice.  And when was the

 9    school built?  When was it formed?  I don't have the exact date, but I can

10    check this out and then I can send it when it began functioning, the

11    school in Konjevic Polje.  And you're now telling me about the separation

12    of children and all the rest of it.  It's not true.

13            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14       Q.   Do you know who Besim Ibisevic?

15       A.   No.  I don't know any Besim Ibisevic.

16       Q.   Who was the president of the Municipal Assembly at that time?

17       A.   You mean the Municipal Assembly of Bratunac?

18       Q.   Yes.

19       A.   Well, I couldn't tell you for sure.  I know he came from somewhere

20    by don't know his name.  I wasn't interested in those things.  I wasn't

21    interested in politics.  I was interested in my work, my job, my children,

22    to bring them up properly, to send them to school.  I was never interested

23    in politics.

24       Q.   Yes, I can quite believe that, that you were just interested in

25    your family, your work, and your children.  But all I'm saying is that the

Page 19374

 1    individual who was the president of the municipal assembly, he was a

 2    Muslim, in his book he writes about how a cannon was even stolen at the

 3    end of February 1992 in addition to all the other weaponry.

 4       A.   Well, I don't remember.  I don't know.  Maybe.  It's all

 5    topsy-turvy, upside down.  I don't know.

 6       Q.   I'm asking you about an event that the one-time mayor is writing

 7    about and he was a Muslim.  All right.  Do you remember the events in

 8    September 1991, what happened then, when they came together.  The Serb and

 9    Muslim representatives.  Nikola Koljevic arrived, Ejup Ganic arrived,

10    Vitomir Zepinic [phoen] arrived.  He was the deputy Minister of Internal

11    Affairs at the time, Avdo Hebib came and Enver Saric the head of the

12    security services centre from Tuzla, and all the rest were politicians.

13    And I'm sure I'm remember Nikola Koljevic, and Ejup Ganic, a Serb and a

14    Muslim; right?

15       A.   Well, what has that got to do with it, their coming?  I wasn't

16    interested in that.  I wasn't interested in who was a Serb and who was a

17    Muslim and who came to attend what Municipal Assembly meeting.  They did

18    their job.  I did mine.

19       Q.   Well, I'm talking about their arrival in your village precisely

20    because of the tensions in the village.

21       A.   They did not come to our village.  Not a single one.  And I stand

22    by that.  None of them ever came to my village.  None of those politicians

23    came to my village, and they had no need to come to my village.  They

24    didn't need to.  And there wasn't any way in which they could have come.

25       Q.   Do you remember that barricades, checkpoints were set up precisely

Page 19375

 1    at the approach roads in Bratunac, including your own village, Glogova,

 2    Hranca, all those villages, the Pervani village?  Do you remember that

 3    happening?  Do you remember any barricades of any kind?

 4       A.   I'm telling you now I don't remember those barricades.  I wasn't

 5    interested in all that.  Maybe there were.  I'm not saying there weren't.

 6    I can't say either way.  I don't want to lie, but I didn't see them.  I

 7    don't want to say that I saw them if I didn't, no.  I didn't see them.  I

 8    didn't even hear about it, let alone see them.

 9       Q.   Very well.  And do you remember when the SDA blocked the

10    municipality building and prevented the JNA from taking the documents in

11    keeping with a Yugoslav government decision pursuant to military recruits

12    and so on?  You don't remember that event?

13       A.   No.  No.  I was a forestry worker.  I did my job.  I went to work,

14    and from work -- I wasn't interested in all that kind of thing.  That's

15    all I have to say about it all.  And I really don't know -- I don't want

16    to answer that question.  I don't know.  I just don't know.  And if I

17    don't know, I can't say.  I'm really very upset.

18       Q.   All right.  So you don't know anything about that.  Now, do you

19    know anything about this --

20       A.   All I know, and I stand by what I say, is that all the -- I know

21    about all the events that I talked about, that I experienced, that I went

22    through.  I don't remember anything else.  But I will document it.  I will

23    send in the documents.

24            When the thing in Kravice happened I don't remember, but you said

25    the year, and I will send you information about Konjevic Polje --

Page 19376

 1            JUDGE MAY:  Don't worry about that.  It's a side issue.  It really

 2    is.

 3            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4            JUDGE MAY:  Yes, Mr. Milosevic.  Now, let's try and deal with as

 5    much as we can before the adjournment.  See if you can finish the

 6    witness's cross-examination.

 7            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I don't think I'll be able to

 8    finish the cross-examination of the witness today, Mr. May.

 9            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the basis of all these

10    discussions, you won't be able to.  You're asking me things I can't tell

11    you about, about the school too.  I think that the school started working

12    before.

13            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14       Q.   Well, let's leave the school alone now.

15       A.   I'm not going to leave anything alone.  I'm not going to say

16    anything that is not true and correct.  Everything I have said is true and

17    correct and I stand by it.

18            I think the school started working before in Konjevic Polje prior

19    to the date you said and what went on in Kravice, but that's not true.

20    That's not correct.

21            JUDGE MAY:  Mr. Milosevic, will you ask your next question,

22    please.

23            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

24            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25       Q.   Do you remember the attack on a Serbian hamlet, a village that is

Page 19377

 1    mostly village that is called Bljeceva in your vicinity, near you, where

 2    several Serbs were killed?

 3       A.   Well, how could I remember that when I was all beaten up and on

 4    the ground for 30 days and all injured and I had to be treated by people

 5    from UNPROFOR?  How could I remember what you're just asking me?

 6       Q.   I'm talking about the events that took place on the 6th of May.

 7       A.   I know nothing about that.  I passed through the woods to Potocari

 8    a month later where I was treated.  I had to receive treatment.  My back

 9    was all injured and my arm is too.  I can take my jacket off and you can

10    see what I have here on my arms.  And you're -- I have swellings all over

11    and you're asking me about this.

12       Q.   But you were in Glogova on the 6th of May.

13       A.   Well, I went for treatment then too.  I was receiving treatment at

14    the time.

15       Q.   And do you remember -- this is something that happened then when

16    the killings of Serbs started.

17       A.   What Serbs?  Where did the killing of Serbs take place?

18       Q.   Well, I'm telling you, the village of Bljeceva.

19       A.   I was telling you I was undergoing treatment.  I was in hospitals.

20    Don't ask me that.

21       Q.   Just a minute.  But on the 6th of May you were in Glogova?

22       A.   When?

23       Q.   You said the attack in Glogova took place on the 6th of May?

24       A.   Yes.  But what state was I in?  I apologised and said for three

25    days I urinated blood and now you're asking me about all these things.

Page 19378

 1    Don't ask me that, don't.

 2       Q.   All right.  Very well.  But let's just clear one point up.  I

 3    didn't understand -- hear the interpretation.

 4            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Are the interpreters telling us that

 5    we're speaking too fast?  Is that it?  I didn't hear them.

 6            JUDGE MAY:  No, but you are speaking fast anyway.  But let's move

 7    on beyond the 6th of May, closer to the events we're dealing with.

 8            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

 9            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10       Q.   You say that in April 1992, there was an increased presence of

11    Serb soldiers, that they had been trained, that they were wearing

12    uniforms.  What army are you talking about?  Are you talking about the JNA

13    or are you talking about the army of Republika Srpska?

14       A.   Well, I don't know if it was the RS or the Yugoslav army.  The

15    Yugoslav People's Army was the uniforms they wore and so were the

16    vehicles.  So which other army would it be than the JNA?

17       Q.   All right.  On page 3 in your statement, in point 5 you say that

18    you say you were ordered to surrender your weapons, hand them over.  Were

19    you armed at the time or not?

20       A.   Yes, I was armed with a hunting rifle.  In 1967, I bought the

21    hunting rifle.  I was a hunter right up until that last day and moment.

22    So that was -- those were the weapons that were collected up.  Those were

23    the arms I had and nothing else, nor did I see anybody else armed in any

24    other way.

25       Q.   Well, in the same paragraph, you say that Nezir Ibisevic told you

Page 19379

 1    that all the inhabitants of the village had to collect together and to

 2    hand over their weapons and that that was the information he had been

 3    given.

 4       A.   Deronjic came and told him nicely that the hunters should rally

 5    and that anybody who had hunting rifles should hand them over.  And

 6    Ibisevic sent Ramiz Gerovic and I went there too.  There were about ten us

 7    there.  And I said, "What's happening?"  And he said such and such a

 8    thing, he told us what was going on.  And the next day we started handing

 9    over our weapons.  The police came.  There was army and tanks all over the

10    place, and we handed over our weapons.

11       Q.   All right.  As you were asked to hand over your weapons, does that

12    mean that a group of armed persons existed, and that's why they were asked

13    to return their weapons?

14       A.   Well, that's something that you would have to know about.  I can't

15    know about that.

16       Q.   What did you say?

17       A.   I said you're the one that should know about that.  You should be

18    democratic.

19       Q.   Well, in that same paragraph of your statement, you say that

20    Miroslav Deronjic held a speech and said that you would be returned your

21    weapons once they had been checked.

22       A.   Yes.  He said that we shouldn't panic, that our hunting rifles

23    would be returned to us.

24       Q.   All right.  And was part of that weaponry handed back to you?

25       A.   To whom?  I have my licence for my hunting rifle but no hunting

Page 19380

 1    rifle.  I still have the permit to carry it, the licence to carry it.  So

 2    you're raising -- I'm trembling.  You've got me all upset.  I'm trembling.

 3    You're asking questions that shouldn't be asked.

 4            JUDGE MAY:  Just pause a moment.  Now, just calm down.  If you

 5    want a break at any time, Witness B-1701, say so.  There will be a limit

 6    to the time which the accused can cross-examine.

 7            Yes.  Now, let's move on.

 8            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10       Q.   All right.  On page 3, paragraph 7, you explained the following:

11    You say that Ramo Ibisevic saw the Serbs unloading weapons from a truck

12    and that Deronjic distributed the weapons to the local Serbs.

13       A.   In Maljezov Potok.

14       Q.   What did you say?

15       A.   It was at 9.00 at night in Maljezov Potok.  At leave that's what

16    Ramo told me.  It's near the village of Magasici.

17       Q.   So, he told you that?

18       A.   Yes, he told us that.

19       Q.   All right.  Fine.  This man Miroslav Deronjic who you mentioned

20    several times, was he a local?

21       A.   Yes, he was a local from the village of Magasici.

22       Q.   And that is part of Glogova village, is it?

23       A.   It's the same municipality, the municipality of Glogova, yes.

24       Q.   Did anybody else see what and hear what Ramo told you?

25       A.   Well, those of us who were gathered there.  Seven or eight of us

Page 19381

 1    or ten perhaps who were in the shop.  I took up the goods I needed and I

 2    left.  That's what I heard.  And let me say quite frankly I didn't believe

 3    it. I couldn't believe that this was so.

 4       Q.   Well, I couldn't believe it either.  I -- if I were in your place,

 5    I couldn't believe it either.

 6       A.   Well, it's one thing believing.  It's another thing what happened.

 7       Q.   Now, tell me this:  As you didn't believe him, then how did you

 8    believe that he told you the truth?  You say you didn't believe what he

 9    told you, but how then do you believe it now?

10            JUDGE MAY:  It's not for the witness to say whether it was true or

11    not.  The only question is was it said.  The witness has said that that is

12    what he heard.  He can't judge whether it was true.

13            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

14            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15       Q.   Now, as you mentioned some cockades on the caps, do you know that

16    the Yugoslav People's Army had no cockades or kokardas on their caps?

17       A.   No, the Yugoslav People's Army didn't but some of them did.  I saw

18    them.  They were there, these type of caps.  And it wasn't only me who saw

19    them.  Others saw them too.

20       Q.   Now, I'm not asking you about any political matters now.

21       A.   And I don't know anything about politics, so I couldn't say.  But

22    I saw this in a tank.  I saw a man sitting in the tank.  I saw the men

23    from the waist up and they had the broad type of cap.

24       Q.   You mean the "sajkaca"?

25       A.   They're called "petrovka" in the Ljubovija area.  And the

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Page 19383

 1    cockades, the kokarda insignia were on them.  I saw this with two of the

 2    tankists.  They were standing at the municipal building at the entrance so

 3    I could see them from the waist up.

 4       Q.   All right.  Tell me this.  You yourself have said in point 10,

 5    paragraph 10 of your statement, you talk about the negotiations carried on

 6    in the school between the Muslim and Serb side.  What were they

 7    discussing?  What were the discussions about, negotiations about?

 8       A.   There were no negotiations.  They just came and said.  They

 9    weren't negotiations as far as I was concerned.  All they said was we were

10    supposed to surrender our weapons and that there was some army there, that

11    there were some soldiers, but we didn't know who the soldiers were, what

12    the army was.

13       Q.   So those negotiations were conducted about the surrender of arms;

14    is that right?

15       A.   Yes, that's right.  As to the other negotiations, I don't know

16    anything about that.

17       Q.   You say several things at the same time.  You say that the -- that

18    it was the army.  You don't know whether it was the JNA or some locals.

19    You say that there were some women among them.  Do you know that in the

20    JNA ranks there were no women?  Not in the rank of the units.  There may

21    have been women holding various positions in the JNA but not in the combat

22    units.

23       A.   You're asking me that question.  How come they had -- let me ask

24    you.  Where did they get the uniforms of the JNA from?  Where did they get

25    uniforms from, both the women and the men?  Where did they get the JNA

Page 19384

 1    uniforms from?  You tell me now.  What army's coming to my place and what

 2    kind of army are they?

 3       Q.   Let us just try and clear up one thing.  You say that those people

 4    had socks over their heads.

 5       A.   Yes, socks.

 6       Q.   And you can't recognise them.  And do you know that the JNA did

 7    not wear socks on their heads?

 8       A.   They didn't, but I -- we lived as brothers in the old days when we

 9    used to say, "Comrade Milosevic."  Everything changed when you came to

10    power.  You knew about everything.  And don't ask me too many questions.

11            JUDGE MAY:  Just a moment.  Now, Mr. Milosevic, we're getting to

12    the time when we normally adjourn.  You've got about quarter of an hour

13    left with this witness.  Can you finish within the next five minutes or

14    so?

15            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I cannot finish in five minutes, and

16    I think I need a little more time than 15 minutes.  I even think that I

17    got less in that way than the other side.

18            JUDGE MAY:  You most certainly did not.  You will have had more

19    than them.  We will continue for another three or four minutes.  We will

20    then adjourn, and you can have quarter of an hour more tomorrow.  Yes.

21            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

22            MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23       Q.   You described that those men who committed the crime that you

24    described had socks over their faces.  And the only one who was not masked

25    was a man who you describe as Miroslav Deronjic and who, according to your

Page 19385

 1    allegations, was in command.

 2       A.   I didn't see him commanding.  And what I didn't see, I won't say.

 3    But I did see him around there three times.  The third time when I said he

 4    was in uniform, an officer uniform and a beret on his head.  That was the

 5    last time.  And he didn't give orders to anyone.  I didn't hear him do

 6    that, nor did I hear him giving commands or being in command.  So I won't

 7    say.  What is not correct I don't say.

 8       Q.   Very well.  So he was not commanding.  Have we cleared that up?

 9       A.   No.  I did not see him commanding.  So I can't say that I saw him

10    commanding.

11       Q.   And did you see that this man who is the only one who you can

12    identify, did he commit a crime?  Did he kill anyone?

13       A.   I'm telling you I didn't see it, but he was there.

14       Q.   Is that the only person whose name you can tell us among those

15    others present who, according to your allegations, committed that crime?

16       A.   They were all covered up except for him.  And that's how I was

17    able to recognise him.  I had almost forgotten him.  He was a boy when we

18    went to elementary school in Glogova.  Then he grew up and went to other

19    schools.  I don't know where he went to school nor what position he held.

20    That didn't interest me.  What people were doing and where they were

21    employed, I never inquired.  I wasn't interested in that.

22       Q.   Do you have any information as to who those men could have been

23    with socks on their heads who committed the crimes you have described?

24       A.   Comrade Milosevic, you should know that better than I, whether the

25    Serbs from Bosnia were trained in Zemun.

Page 19386

 1            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.  We're going to adjourn now.  Quarter of an hour

 2    more tomorrow, Mr. Milosevic.

 3            Witness B-1701, could you be back, please, to finish your evidence

 4    tomorrow morning at 9.00.

 5            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Thank you.

 6            JUDGE MAY:  Let me return this to the registry.  I'll deal with it

 7    tomorrow.

 8                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

 9                          to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 16th day of April,

10                          2003, at 9.00 a.m.