Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 22437

1 Monday, 16 June 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: I remind the court that we are sitting this week

7 without Judge Kwon, who following our previous order is away on Tribunal

8 business.

9 Yes. Mr. Milosevic, it's for you to finish your cross-examination

10 of this witness. I think I said you had up to one hour if you require it

11 today.


13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]

15 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Babovic, we left off discussing the question

16 that you raised to the effect that Radovan Stojicic, before he was given

17 the rank of colonel general was a lieutenant. Tell me, please: When was

18 the -- when did the law come into force governing ranks?

19 A. The law governing ranks was adopted in 1995.

20 Q. I have here before me the 26th of December, 1995 is the date, a

21 document. It is the second half of my second term of office, in fact.

22 Now, tell me: Do you know that Radovan Stojicic, when he was promoted to

23 this rank, was the assistant minister for internal affairs -- assistant to

24 the minister of internal affairs? So he wasn't a lieutenant. He was the

25 assistant to the minister for internal affairs and was at the head of the

Page 22438

1 Public Security Service of Serbia, the MUP of Serbia, in fact, which means

2 that he occupied the top post in the police after the minister, of course;

3 second to the minister?

4 A. Yes, I do know that, but we must distinguish between ranks and

5 positions and functions. I assume that Radovan Stojicic, Badza, had the

6 rank of reserve lieutenant, whereas he occupied posts -- the post that you

7 indicated, in fact.

8 Q. All right. The fact that he was a lieutenant is not correct, but

9 have a look at Article 3 of that law that you're referring to. And it

10 says here --

11 JUDGE MAY: Wait a moment.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. "The regulation --"

14 JUDGE MAY: Let us all find it. The law on ranks, I think that is

15 tab 5. I'll be corrected if I'm wrong. And Article 3.

16 Dr. Babovic, do you have it?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I do not, unfortunately.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Article 3 says: "The regulation on staffing specification in the

21 Ministry of the Interior," and then in brackets "herein after, the

22 regulation on staffing specification, shall establish the ranks for each

23 post of an authorised official."

24 Therefore, we know who has to have which rank in view of the

25 position he occupies. And as he occupied the top position, he was

Page 22439

1 accorded the top rank.

2 Then take a look at Article 6 next. It says: "The President of

3 the Republic shall assign and appoint to their ranks Generals and

4 authorised officials in post for which the rank of General is established

5 under the regulation on staffing specification.

6 "The President of the Republic shall also align to the starting

7 rank of 2nd Lieutenant graduates and those persons who have obtained a

8 high level of education, and this starting rank by completing basic

9 studies at the police academy.

10 "Therefore, these persons were assigned based on the staffing

11 act -- staffing specification of the Ministry of the Interior exclusively

12 according to the article providing which rank should be accorded to which

13 official." And it is -- that is the way in which they received their

14 ranks. Is that correct, Mr. Babovic, or not?

15 A. The staffing specification determines the work posts, a

16 description of the work posts, and the conditions for deployment and

17 occupation of those work posts. It is the job description, in fact. It

18 does not provide for individual solutions for those jobs or posts. This

19 is done according to Article 6, which -- but the constitutional court

20 questioned it and this is done by the president of the republic. What you

21 stated, with respect to the conditions to which persons are assigned to

22 individual posts, means that the individuals should have university

23 degrees and that the officer should be lieutenants, lieutenant colonels,

24 or colonels, and they had to have I think at least 15 years of service, if

25 I remember correctly.

Page 22440

1 Q. Yes, that is what the law provides for, Mr. Babovic. But when

2 ranks were introduced, these did not exist, so the ranks were accorded in

3 view of the positions that these persons held within the Ministry of the

4 Interior. So they were already assigned to these work posts.

5 Now, after that, can you quote an example of anybody who was

6 promoted to the rank of general, for example, but -- and who had not

7 previously been a colonel?

8 A. No. This is not a subject I studied. But the fact that they were

9 assigned -- that they were given the rank of general straight away,

10 regardless of whether they had fulfilled the conditions beforehand, is not

11 something which I consider to be in conformity with this law. And as I've

12 already stated, the whole article, Article 6, which vests the president of

13 the republic with authorisations which he cannot have, is contrary to the

14 constitution in my view.

15 Q. All right, Mr. Babovic. Now, here we're talking about the fact

16 that the president of the republic assigns persons to ranks and assigns

17 persons to work posts. It is true that the law provides for the fact that

18 the president of the republic shall assign ranks of general to MUP and

19 that that same rule stipulates that the president of the republic assigns

20 persons to jobs.

21 Now, tell me this: Did I assign a work post to anybody, or did

22 they -- were these appointments made by the ministers in the different

23 departments; that is to say, the minister of the department appointed

24 these individuals?

25 A. As far as I know, the ranks of general was granted from your own

Page 22441

1 hands and the appointment too.

2 Q. That is just not true. Have you got any document to bear that out

3 and to show that I assigned persons to jobs? It is true that a decree by

4 the president of the republic gave them their rank.

5 A. That is not correct, then it was not in keeping with this law.

6 Q. But it was in keeping with the law governing the Ministry of the

7 Interior and the appointment of functions.

8 A. However, this law takes away this right from the ministers and

9 vests it in the president of the republic.

10 Q. As you can see, I never availed myself of that right vested in me,

11 and you can't quote a single example that I did, except for the decree

12 which at the proposal of the ministers appoints generals in view of the

13 posts they hold.

14 Now take a look at Article 10, please: "The President of the

15 Republic may, at the recommendation of the Minister of the Interior, award

16 exceptional promotion to an authorised official with a senior officer

17 ranked to the rank of General, or an authorised official from the rank of

18 General to a higher General rank." And then we go on -- or rather, is it

19 clear to you on the basis of that and in view of their assignment and the

20 functions they held on the recommendations made by the minister -- and

21 actually, it was never just the recommendation of the minister but the

22 whole ministry group which nominated persons to ranks, in view of the

23 function they performed. Isn't that so, Mr. Babovic?

24 A. I don't know that that is so, but Article 10, which you have just

25 read out, speaks of the fact that it is at the recommendation of the

Page 22442

1 minister that the president of the republic may, at the recommendation, as

2 it says, of the Ministry of the Interior, award exceptional promotion.

3 However, recommendation of a minister is not mentioned in Article 6, where

4 it says that generals and authorised personnels for appointments according

5 to staffing specifications is assigned and appointed by the president of

6 the republic. So there's no mention there of a recommendation from the

7 minister there.

8 Q. Yes, Mr. Babovic. But in view of the fact that you yourself are

9 not a lawyer, I think that you've forgotten the fact that in Article 3 it

10 states: "The regulation on staffing specification in the Ministry of the

11 Interior...shall establish the ranks for each post of an authorised

12 official." Therefore, how these ranks were established for a given post

13 for the top post in MUP is how the ranks were accorded, according to the

14 staffing specification, the job descriptions, persons in those posts, as

15 determined by a decision of the minister. That is how they were --

16 received their ranks, were accorded ranks, when ranks were introduced. Is

17 that clear to you, or do you want me to explain something else to you as

18 well?

19 A. You don't have to explain anything to me. But I said a moment ago

20 that the staffing specification and job description in fact is a job

21 description, describes what the job is, how many people are assigned to

22 the different jobs, how many jobs there are. It does not say who is going

23 to be appointed to which individual work post. So if you are doing this,

24 distributing people and promoting people to the ranks of general, persons

25 who have not beforehand gained the necessary prerequisites but occupies a

Page 22443

1 post for which a rank of general is implied, I'm not a legal man as I

2 said, but I don't think this is in keeping with the law.

3 Q. Well, tell me, then: Which individuals did not have the necessary

4 prerequisites pursuant to this law and pursuant to the staffing

5 specification and job descriptions? Which persons did not have the

6 necessary prerequisites for that and for promotion?

7 A. As I say and as the title of my report say, I analysed the

8 enormity of solutions in the Ministry of the Interior. I did not go into

9 an analysis of the entire practice that held true during the time that you

10 were president of the republic yourself. So before that and after that.

11 Q. You said a moment ago, on the basis of the staffing specification

12 that job descriptions are compiled, Article 3 says that, "Ranks shall be

13 established for each post of an individual authorised official." And then

14 depending on this individual post, each post and who occupies that post,

15 the persons were given ranks when ranks were introduced. I assume you

16 know that in police forces throughout the world ranks exist.

17 A. Yes, I do know that in police forces throughout the world ranks

18 exist in a part of the police force, whereas the law on ranks, which was

19 enacted during the time that you were president of the republic, it

20 stipulates ranks for all work posts, so that a typist, for example, and a

21 translator would have a rank too. That was the height of militarisation

22 in the police force which was implemented at that particular point in

23 time.

24 Q. Oh, I see. That's what you call militarisation. I see. So you

25 mean that typists also had ranks? Is that what you're saying? And

Page 22444

1 treasurers and so on and so forth, the civilian employees work in the

2 MUP? I suppose you think cooks had ranks and waiters too.

3 A. Well, I don't know why that is relevant for what we're

4 discussing. If a certain number of individuals didn't have ranks, if they

5 had work posts, names, all those who worked for the police force did have

6 ranks, regardless of the fact whether they were in charge of public law

7 and order, crime research, or whatever other work they did. But these are

8 two different matters. So I don't see how this is relevant for the

9 discussion we're having now.

10 Q. It is relevant, because you claimed that a person who

11 unfortunately is no longer alive and who headed the public security

12 department acquired the rank, rank of general, after being a lieutenant.

13 So surely you think that a lieutenant could have been the head of the

14 police?

15 A. No, that is not my opinion. This is what I was told from the

16 Ministry of the Interior at that time.

17 Q. So somebody told you that, did they?

18 A. Yes, they did.

19 Q. So how did you manage to falsify facts in that way, Mr. Babovic?

20 JUDGE MAY: No, that's not -- that's not a proper question,

21 allegations of falsification.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. I asked you, as you say that you reviewed the documents, do you

24 have a single general showing that I appointed him to a particular work

25 post?

Page 22445

1 A. I said that I didn't.

2 Q. Very well. And do you know that all the generals that I awarded

3 that rank as president of the republic, I did so upon the recommendation

4 of the whole college of generals in the Ministry of Interior, because that

5 was the regular and normal practice?

6 A. Your Honours, I have to remind you of the title of my report. I

7 analysed normative solutions and not the practice and individual

8 situations that may have been in accordance with those normative rules or

9 not in accordance with them.

10 Q. Mr. Babovic, look at page 1, for instance, when you speak about

11 the definitions of abbreviations and concepts and then you list various

12 laws, the law on the interior of Serbia, the law on the internal affairs,

13 then the law on the army, then the law on the basics of state security,

14 the law on defence, the law on criminal proceedings, the law on ranks.

15 You have analysed all these laws, haven't you, Mr. Babovic?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And as a teacher of the French language, you consider yourself

18 qualified to analyse laws, don't you, Mr. Babovic?

19 JUDGE MAY: We've been through all that. We're not going to go

20 over it again.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I add something?

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The accused obviously true to

24 himself is endeavouring to disqualify the witness, and I would just like

25 to recall that two years ago I was appointed head of the team for the

Page 22446

1 reform of the police of Serbia and that a month ago I have been appointed

2 member of a commission, a six-member commission, which is to investigate

3 the system of security and how it functions, that is, a system of security

4 for the prime minister of the Republic of Serbia. I do not believe that

5 state bodies would entrust somebody who is not qualified to carry out such

6 important tasks.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. You're an example of somebody being incompetent for what you're

9 doing by saying that a policeman with many years of practice is not

10 competent, is not qualified, to perform his duties.

11 JUDGE MAY: I don't even begin to understand what you're talking

12 about. We debated at length on Friday the qualifications of this

13 witness. We're not going to go over them again. Let's move on to

14 something else.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mr. Babovic, do you know that generals headed only the five

17 largest departments within the public security section, the police, the

18 crime police, the traffic police, the border police, and the department

19 for fire-fighting? Therefore, your allegation that generals headed all

20 the departments is not true, is it, Mr. Babovic? That also is not true.

21 A. I did not make such claim in my report, and I wish to underline

22 that.

23 Q. Were generals in the state security department?

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. And do you know who appoints assistant ministers?

Page 22447

1 A. Assistants to ministers, according to the law, are -- I think the

2 law on state administration, is -- are appointed by the government.

3 Q. I see, appointed and relieved of their duty by the government.

4 And the assignment of jobs as to what each assistant will do is determined

5 by the minister himself, isn't it?

6 A. Probably that is how it should be. Now, whether that was as it

7 was, I am not -- I don't know.

8 Q. Do you have any provision of the law or regulation or anything

9 else to show that I appointed assistant heads of departments in the

10 police? Do you have any document to support this?

11 A. I don't and I don't need that, because I did not write any such

12 thing.

13 Q. When you say that the president of the republic promotes graduates

14 of the police academy to ministers, and this is not in dispute, don't you

15 realise that that is a formal ceremony and that people who graduate from

16 the police academy are then promoted to the rank of officers and this is a

17 ceremony, nothing more than that, and no selective act whereby the

18 president of the republic determines who will be an officer or not? Each

19 and every person who graduates from the police academy acquires the lowest

20 officer rank. That is a formal ceremony. No special act on the part of

21 the government, but simply a show of respect towards the fact that

22 somebody is joining the public service and he starts at the lowest rank

23 level of officers. Isn't that right, Mr. Babovic?

24 A. What is right is that that provision is contrary to the

25 constitution.

Page 22448

1 Q. Very well, Mr. Babovic. Then it is quite simple to move on. I

2 don't know why it would be contrary to the constitution.

3 A. According to the decision and ruling of the constitutional court.

4 Q. In 2003; isn't that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And according to this newly introduced procedure, who does that

7 now?

8 A. I am not a lawyer, and you should probably know that when the

9 constitutional court makes a ruling whereby a provision of a law or

10 regulation is annulled, then there is a procedure whereby further steps

11 need to be taken.

12 Q. In paragraph 82 you say: It should be underlined that the heads

13 of the two departments continued sidestepping the minister to report

14 directly to Milosevic even when he ceased to be president of Serbia and

15 became president of FRY. Testifying to this are statements by Radomir

16 Markovic following his arrest, according to which he had regular contact

17 with Milosevic.

18 Very well. Sitting where you are sitting now, Rade Markovic

19 actually said that he reported to his minister, who in those days were

20 Vlajko Stojiljkovic. Now, my question to you is: Did you have access to

21 the statements of witnesses made here prior to their cross-examination?

22 And if you did, it seems to me that your role is to confirm statements of

23 witnesses, even those statements which those same witnesses denied later

24 on.

25 JUDGE MAY: That's not a question for the witness at all. He's

Page 22449

1 giving his evidence. You can ask him if you want where he got that

2 statement from. My recollection of Markovic's evidence was that he did

3 have meetings with you and he did report to you about events, and I think

4 he said about events in Kosovo. But whether that's right or not, what is

5 the question you want to ask the witness to answer, which is a proper

6 question?

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. The question is whether it is clear that Markovic explained quite

9 clearly that he reported to the minister. Now, whether he provided me

10 with information, it is quite logical for the head of the state security

11 to provide information to the head of state. But he reports to the

12 minister and is accountable to the minister. And he said here that every

13 week or twice a week they reviewed all matters at a college meeting of the

14 Ministry. Are you aware of that or not?

15 A. Yes, I am, but I'm also aware of a decision signed by you that the

16 minister -- no, no, the head of the state security service is relieved of

17 the obligation to report to the minister but that he should establish

18 direct contact with the president of the republic. This is a general

19 enactment that you passed in 1997.

20 Q. That's a very good thing, as I have that act in my hands now, as

21 you placed it in your binder. Then you will explain to me where it says

22 that he is relieved of the duty to report to the minister and his other

23 legal obligations. Namely, this was adopted on the 21st of April, 1997

24 and the entire decision, Article 1, reads -- we can put it on the ELMO,

25 but not to waste time, it says: "In the period of preparations for the

Page 22450

1 adoption of the federal law on security affairs of FRY, the department of

2 state security will act in accordance with the guidelines of the President

3 of the Republic and the Government of the Republic of Serbia from the day

4 this decision comes into force."

5 JUDGE MAY: Where in the binder am I going to find this, or have

6 you got -- or is it your copy?

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This was in the binder, KO227740.

8 JUDGE MAY: It was certainly exhibited elsewhere.

9 Have we got a copy of it?

10 MR. NICE: There's a copy coming.

11 JUDGE MAY: Have we got a relevant number for it?

12 MR. NICE: Not immediately, but I'll find one.

13 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness have a copy.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. I will read it. But you can read it. Please read what it says in

16 that decision.

17 A. It says what you have just read. So there's no point for me to

18 read it as well.

19 Q. I see. Of course there's no point.

20 And then it says: "Until the day the federal law is in force,

21 which shall, in accordance with the constitution of Yugoslavia, regulate

22 the security affairs in the framework of the FR Yugoslavia jurisdiction."

23 So these were tasks linked to the adoption of a new law, because according

24 to the constitution of Yugoslavia, as you have read it, you're aware of

25 it, defence and security come within the competence of the federation, and

Page 22451

1 they were working on the drafting of that law and they were in the final

2 stages of that work. Therefore, here we are talking about -- only about

3 guidelines for the drafting of that law. Do you know that after that the

4 draft law has to be passed by the government, then debated, then submitted

5 to the assembly, and the assembly has to adopt it? So what do you find

6 here in this decision --

7 JUDGE MAY: Now, come on. We need a question. What is the

8 question out of all this?

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Where does it say in this decision that the head of the state

11 security department -- here it says "department of the state security" --

12 needs to sidestep the minister and report directly to the president of the

13 republic and the government of the Republic of Serbia when this is a very

14 specific point in time, that is, preparations for the adoption of a

15 federal law? Is that clear or not?

16 A. It says here: "During the period of preparations." It doesn't

17 say "in the preparations," but it says "during the period of

18 preparations." So we are talking about a time period and not the contents

19 of that period, and the entire decision relates to that period until a law

20 is adopted, which was never adopted and it was quite clear that it never

21 would be.

22 Q. If it had been clear that no one would adopt such a law, then

23 surely no one would have worked on preparing it.

24 Secondly, I was president of the Republic of Serbia for another

25 two months after that, upon which I was elected president of FRY in July.

Page 22452

1 So you have May, June -- let's say three months, May, June, and July,

2 during which I continued to be president of the Republic of Serbia. And

3 what happened as a consequence of this? Can you infer from this?


5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This decision, according to my

6 knowledge and information, merely sanctioned the practice that had existed

7 throughout the previous period. From reliable sources within the Ministry

8 of Internal Affairs, I heard that the head of the state security

9 department never even entered the office of the Minister of the Interior

10 but did everything in direct contact with the president of the republic.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. But you heard Rade Markovic, who was head of the state security

13 department, and he explained that at each meeting of the college, like his

14 colleague in the public security department, he attended those meetings

15 and reviewed all matters together.

16 A. Probably that is so, but it doesn't relate to this period that I'm

17 referring to.

18 Q. Very well, Mr. Babovic. Can you read out from this decision any

19 wording that says that the minister needs to be sidestepped and not

20 reported to? But on the contrary, it says in connection with the adoption

21 of the federal law he will work in accordance with the guidelines of the

22 government and the president of the republic. What is wrong with that?

23 Is there anything illegal in that?

24 A. When I read this, I'm surprised to hear a question being put as to

25 what is unusual, because by a general act the president of the republic

Page 22453

1 has established that the head of the state security department should act

2 in accordance with his guidelines and the guidelines of the government.

3 The minister is not mentioned anywhere.

4 Q. Preparations for the adoption of a law are referred to, but let's

5 not discuss this any further. It is so obviously that there's no point in

6 wasting any more time on it.

7 Tell me, Mr. Babovic, point 83, paragraph 83 --

8 MR. NICE: The exhibit was 277, for the record.

9 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. "The President of the Republic of Serbia may determine the

12 existence of an imminent threat of war or proclaim a state of war when the

13 National Assembly is unable to meet," and then you say, "(Article 83,

14 paragraph 6 of the Serbian Constitution). Furthermore, at the

15 Government's proposal, the President of the Republic of Serbia proclaims a

16 state of emergency and issues enactments so that adequate measures are

17 undertaken. In such circumstances, the MUP directly implements the orders

18 and enactments issued by the President of the Republic of Serbia in order

19 to end the state of emergency."

20 You quoted the constitution there, didn't you, Mr. Babovic?

21 A. I quoted the law on the interior.

22 Q. You quoted Article 83 of the constitution, paragraph 6, and then

23 Article 83 of the constitution, paragraph 8, and finally Article 17 of the

24 law on internal affairs.

25 Now, since you quoted that as very significant, since it follows

Page 22454

1 from constitutional norms, those that refer to imminent threat of war,

2 state of war, emergency, et cetera, you draw a conclusion about some kind

3 of command responsibility for charting security policies in Serbia and for

4 implementing it -- them. I'm asking you the following now: At the time

5 when I was president of the Republic of Serbia - so that is to say, from

6 1990 until 1997 - in the territory of Serbia or in any of its part was a

7 state of emergency declared, a state imminent threat of war, or a state of

8 war? So did this ever happen? Although, this is prescribed by the

9 constitution, was there ever a state of emergency that was declared? Was

10 an imminent threat of war declared or a state of war in the territory of

11 Serbia or in any one of its parts; yes or no?

12 A. This had to do with certain political considerations and it had to

13 do with how opportune it would have been to declare a state of war.

14 Q. I understand.

15 A. But that the conditions for proclaiming a state of emergency, they

16 certainly were there. It would be hard to say that the situation was not

17 right for that.

18 Q. You say here that the president of the republic has the right to

19 proclaim a state of emergency at the proposal of the government, in all

20 fairness. But then I'm asking you whether I ever proclaimed such a state,

21 and the answer should be yes or no.

22 A. No.

23 Q. So then that norm in practice, while I was president of the

24 republic, was never resorted to. Is that right?

25 A. The question is: What happened in 1991? This was a state of

Page 22455

1 emergency without a state of emergency.

2 Q. I'm not aware of any state of emergency in 1991.

3 A. Demonstrations in Belgrade.

4 Q. There was a day of demonstrations in Belgrade. So what? On the

5 9th of March, 1991, demonstrations were held in Belgrade. So what?

6 A. As far as I know, from the testimony of your then-close

7 associates, you asked for a state of emergency to be proclaimed then, and

8 this was not done only because the members of the Presidency of the SFRY

9 did not agree to that.

10 Q. Now you are testifying about me having asked for the proclamation

11 of the state of emergency and then the members of the Presidency of the

12 SFRY did not agree to that. What do I need the members of the Presidency

13 of the SFRY from if I was authorised, according to what you say here, to

14 proclaim a state of emergency on my own, in Serbia? Isn't that

15 contradictory, what you said just now?

16 A. I am aware of certain historical facts about which persons from

17 your immediate milieu testified and they say that you asked for a state of

18 emergency to be proclaimed immediately. I think that at that time, when

19 the SFRY constitution was in force, the proclamation of a state of

20 emergency fell under the ambit of the Presidency of the SFRY and federal

21 agencies.

22 Q. But you quoted the constitution of Serbia here; is that right?

23 A. Yes, that's right.

24 Q. And you mentioned that as some kind of big powers that were in my

25 hands. And now you say that I could not do that because there was the

Page 22456

1 SFRY constitution.

2 A. I did not mention that at all as some kind of big powers that you

3 had. I just mentioned that these were powers that you had, in order to

4 illustrate the position you had in relation to the Ministry of the

5 Interior.

6 Q. All right. Mr. Babovic, you can't really have it both ways. It

7 can't be that way and it cannot be that it was not in accordance with the

8 SFRY constitution. Was the SFRY constitution observed?

9 A. Your Honours, are we going to discuss these political issues now

10 from the period of 1990 and 1991?

11 JUDGE MAY: Just answer as best you can, please, Dr. Babovic. If

12 you don't -- if you don't know the answer, just say so.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Do you know what Article 90 of the constitution of Serbia says?

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. Well, it says what the competencies of the government are and it

18 says here it pursues the policy of the Republic of Serbia, carries out

19 laws and other enactments of the National Assembly in accordance with the

20 constitution.

21 And then paragraph 5: "It stipulates the principles for the

22 organisation of ministries and other agencies and it also appoints and

23 dismisses officials in ministries and various agencies."

24 Number 7: It supervises the work of ministries and separate

25 organisations and also it annuls their regulations that are contrary to

Page 22457

1 the law or regulations passed by it.

2 So, Mr. Babovic, everything that you are trying to put within the

3 powers of the president of the Republic of Serbia is actually

4 constitutionally in the hands of the government and that is what happened

5 in practice. Why are you ascribing this to the president of the Republic,

6 all of those thing that is the government was in charge of? Probably in

7 order to support what this alleged Office of the Prosecutor is trying to

8 prove; is that right?

9 A. I do not accept any insinuations that I did in order to -- that I

10 did all of this in order to support the positions of the OTP. And I don't

11 think that it is an honourable thing to say.

12 As for the constitution and constitutionality as such, at the time

13 when you were in power in Serbia and Yugoslavia there is a lot of evidence

14 as to how this worked out in practice, how the constitution and laws were

15 enforced only when and to the extent to which it suited you. I'm going to

16 remind you of the statement made by your assistant justice minister from

17 November 1997, who said that the police reneged from the law and that it

18 has to be brought back to a normal framework. This is a public statement.

19 Q. All right. If it's a public statement of the Minister of Justice,

20 then this Minister of Justice was in that government and he had the right

21 to take a position of his own.

22 So you talk about my Minister of Justice, as you can see, and this

23 is actually a member of the government who acts independently, at least on

24 the basis of this story that you've just come up with. I'm not aware of

25 that statement-his, but if it indeed was so isn't it his job to criticise

Page 22458

1 certain weaknesses in the functioning of government business?

2 A. I think that he just established this, but it's not that he could

3 remove all of this and that's not the way it was then or later.

4 Q. All right, Mr. Babovic. Let's deal with 122, point 122 of your

5 report.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I'm abiding by your

7 instructions and I am mentioning the exact paragraphs that I refer to.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. You say, "Interestingly, existing police regulations do not

10 envisage any special measures in cases when the application of means of

11 coercion causes death or serious bodily injury. Such cases are not even

12 mentioned in these regulations." That's what you say.

13 Now, I'm asking you, Mr. Babovic: Does this show your lack of

14 objectivity in the role of the advocate of this alleged Office of the

15 Prosecutor or does it speak of your lack of competence? So you say,

16 "Police regulations do not envisage any sanctions in cases when the

17 application of the means of coercion causes death or serious bodily

18 injury." Do you know --

19 MR. NICE: Can I make a point? These recurring insinuations

20 against not just this witness but other witnesses, as well as being

21 offensive to the witness, may serve to distract attention. It might be

22 considered helpful if the accused could be compelled to make his questions

23 without such commentary. We don't typically react to them, but the

24 witnesses have to deal with the question preceded in this case by an

25 insinuation of a kind that's simply unacceptable.

Page 22459

1 JUDGE MAY: Yes. You heard that, Mr. Milosevic.

2 Yes, let's move on. Now, ask a proper question.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. So do you know - because you claim that these regulations do not

5 refer to this at all - doesn't it seem to you, because this is regulated

6 by the criminal law?

7 A. I'm not talking about the criminal law. I'm talking about police

8 regulations.

9 In the next article, I say that such cases as extremely serious

10 cases, because they cause death, in the previous "Regulations on the use

11 of force by members of the Federal SUP," then, "the Federal Secretary,

12 every time the use of the means of coercion cause death or serious bodily

13 injury, to set up a special commission to establish all the circumstances

14 and give an opinion." So I'm talking about police regulations. I'm not

15 analysing the Law on Criminal Procedure.

16 Q. If you were a lawyer, Mr. Babovic, then you would know --

17 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness finish. Don't interrupt.

18 Yes, go on.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have concluded.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Do you know that, for example, Article 190 of the Penal Code of

22 Yugoslavia sanctions the crime of extorting statements? So this relates

23 to the police directly. And for the form that you mentioned here, a

24 prison sentence of at least one year was envisaged and it can go up to 15

25 years for the most serious forms. And also, there is the crime of illegal

Page 22460

1 deprivation of freedom. That is also within the province of work of the

2 police. That is Article 189 of the Penal Code of Yugoslavia, or rather,

3 163 of the law on -- the criminal law of Serbia. And it also envisaged

4 prison sentences up to 15 years, and then also the crime of threatening

5 safety and security.

6 JUDGE MAY: I've stopped you because you've been talking for

7 several minutes. And I don't --

8 Dr. Babovic, it may be that you understand the point of these

9 questions. If you do, answer them. If not, we'll move on to something

10 else.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. However, this is an inversion

12 of logic, as we want to -- as we usually put it. I am talk about police

13 regulations. I am not talking about criminal law.

14 In international instruments, like I think the covenant on civil

15 and political rights, it is explicitly stated that certain treatment by

16 the police has to be specifically sanctioned in all regulations that

17 pertain to police training and the work of the police. This pertains to

18 torture and extorting statements. So in addition to everything that

19 exists in the criminal legislation of all countries, or more or less all

20 country, there is also the obligation of these same states to include this

21 prohibition in police regulations. This is no accident, because the

22 police often has the opportunity of violating such prohibitions.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. So you think that the fact that the criminal law in Article 19 --

25 190 says that extorting statements is qualified as a serious crime, that

Page 22461

1 that is not sufficient, that police regulations have to state that as well

2 and deal with that as well, although it is quite specific and it pertains

3 precisely to the police and it is also sanctioned as a criminal offence.

4 This is your expert opinion?

5 A. Yes, that is my expert opinion. I cannot find this now, and I

6 cannot read this article to you now of the international covenant on civil

7 and political rights, the one that has to do with this.

8 Q. All right. All right, Mr. Babovic. If the Penal Code establishes

9 that something is a criminal offence, and if that is not sanctioned in

10 police regulations, then you find this insufficient. You believe that

11 only appropriate regulations have to -- have to contain this too, those

12 that pertain to police work as such. Is this what you're claiming?

13 A. You're putting it in a way which I find unacceptable. It is

14 necessary for it to be in the criminal law, and the Law on Criminal

15 Procedure, but it is also indispensable to have it in political

16 regulations, that policemen should be cautioned against this quite

17 directly. I'm not the person who invented this. It is the International

18 Community that did this.

19 Q. That is part of their training, and they are taught that this is a

20 criminal offence, and they are familiarised with the criminal law of their

21 country. So I don't understand this necessity that you are insisting

22 upon, but let that remain as your expert opinion.

23 In several places in your report, you refer to a document called

24 the Rules of Service; is that right, Mr. Babovic?

25 A. That's right.

Page 22462

1 Q. Who and when adopted this document and where was it published,

2 these Rules of Service?

3 A. If you read page 1, "Definitions of Concepts and Abbreviations,"

4 you will see that Rules of Service of the Ministry of the Interior of

5 Serbia means that this is the regulations governing the work of the public

6 security service, which was adopted in 1974 and published in the Official

7 Gazette.

8 Q. Well, that's precisely what I wanted you to read, Mr. Babovic.

9 I'm very pleased, because you yourself used this military term, "Rules of

10 Service," as if this were a military organisation. And these are actually

11 regulations governing the work of the public security service, dated 1974,

12 published in the Official Gazette of the Socialist Republic of Serbia on

13 the 13th of July, 1974. So these are regulations, no rules of service.

14 Do you know that these regulations are still in force, although

15 constitutional amendments were passed in the meantime on several occasions

16 and also the new constitution of Serbia, the new constitution of

17 Yugoslavia, the new Law on Criminal Procedure, and all of these laws

18 supersede these regulations?

19 A. I'm aware of that. But when such papers are written and such

20 reports, one makes an effort to refer as briefly as possible in the text

21 itself to organs and documents and their full name is given in a glossary

22 of this nature.

23 As for Rules of Service, I'm not the person who invented this

24 particular term, and I did not ascribe this to the police. This was done

25 by the members of the organs of the interior, the law enforcement, and

Page 22463

1 they referred to it as Rules of Service.

2 Q. All right. Do you distinguish between Rules of Service as an

3 official document for the military and, on the other hand, regulations

4 prescribing the way in which members of the Ministry of the Interior

5 should act? Do you distinguish between these two categories of

6 regulations? Just say yes or no.

7 A. Well, I can't say yes or no. I do distinguish between the Rules

8 of Service in the army and the regulations and Rules of Service in the

9 ministry. But let me remind you once again that as -- that these

10 regulations I have termed the Rules of Service in order to make it an

11 abbreviated version.

12 Q. I see. So you've used a military term in order to say in brief

13 terms what something is, to describe something. Wasn't your intention to

14 prove in quite an inappropriate way your thesis on the militarisation of

15 the police?

16 A. No, that is not proof of that intention. That intent never

17 existed. It is unfounded. This is just an expression of what exists in

18 the organs of internal affairs. You can ask anybody you like, any member

19 of the Ministry of the Interior who knows of the existence of this

20 document, but unfortunately there are very few of them left who do know

21 about it, what its name, what the title is, and they'll say, "Oh, that's

22 that yellow book. It's the Rules of Service." So it's not me who has

23 tried to plant something on you there or militarise a title or anything of

24 that nature.

25 Q. Well, I'm only talking about the basic intention of what you're

Page 22464

1 writing about. And without a doubt, the regulations themselves were

2 enacted in 1974. That's right, isn't it?

3 A. Yes, it is.

4 Q. Now, let's take a look at points 141 and 142, those paragraphs of

5 your report. And in 141, you say that in most of the cases in -- "in a

6 large number of cases, especially in the operation to confiscate weapons,"

7 I'm being told to slow down by the interpreters.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But has I have to quote, Mr. May,

9 various passages, and Mr. Robinson too, various passages of this report by

10 Mr. Babovic's, then I'm really going to need a little more time, I'm

11 afraid. More time than you have given me

12 JUDGE MAY: No, you have taken up a great deal of time arguing

13 with the witness inappropriately and there's no reason for you to get more

14 time. Now, put your point. You can ask this question, of course. You

15 can quote the passage, if you want. Where are we going to find it?

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

17 JUDGE MAY: Is this annex 10? Perhaps the Prosecution can help

18 me.

19 MR. NICE: [Microphone not activated]

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. Nice.

21 MR. NICE: Paragraphs 141, and 142 of his report is where he's

22 taking us at the moment.

23 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Yes.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. You were saying -- let me just skip over this passage and look at

Page 22465

1 the matters of substance. You say, "Carried out searches for weapons was

2 an official pretext." You say, "It is known that the MUP members carried

3 out searches of the residents of Albanians (especially in Kosovo) and

4 Muslims, in brackets you say especially in Sandzak." That is what you

5 yourself state.

6 Now, are you claiming that the police had double yardsticks

7 towards Muslims and Albanians with respect to the other citizens and

8 inhabitants, in view of the unlawful holding of weapons, possession of

9 weapons?

10 A. I'm saying this based on the knowledge of the situation as it was

11 at the time, when the non-Serb population was exposed to measures of this

12 kind, whereas the Serb population was being armed at the same time.

13 Q. All right, Mr. Babovic. That's what you might claim. But what

14 you say is that the houses of Albanians and Muslims were searched,

15 especially in Sandzak, you say, although this region is called Raska

16 Oblast, that's what it's called. Raska district. Sandzak is a Turkish

17 word. And as you're not a Turk, I assume, you ought to use the Serbian

18 term?

19 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, we're not wasting time on points like

20 this. Now, have you got a serious to ask?

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I have got one, Mr. May, a

22 serious question, quite a lot of questions for this witness.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Do you know, Mr. Babovic, how many pieces, as you say that this

25 was pretext, that this was done using a pretext, how many pieces of

Page 22466

1 weapons were confiscated in the area of the SUP of Novi Pazara and the

2 Raska district, what you refer to as Sandzak, in 1992 and 1993 and 1994?

3 Do you know that? Do you know that in 1992, 392 pieces of weapons were

4 confiscated, 486 and 912 in 1992, 1993, and 1994? Are you aware of that,

5 Mr. Babovic?

6 A. Yes, I do know about that. But I would like to draw your

7 attention to the text and the sentence, the second sentence, in fact, of

8 that passage, of paragraph 142, which states that "The search for weapons

9 held without permit was the formal pretext, although - especially in

10 Kosovo - it was often not only a pretext, for there was a real need to

11 enforce the legal regulations."

12 Q. Well, that's why I'm not quoting Kosovo; I am quoting the Raska

13 district, which is Novi Pazara and that is not in Kosovo. And do you

14 know, Mr. Babovic, that apart from the figures that you say you don't know

15 about, that in 1993 in the SUP Novi Pazara area among others, 5

16 machine-guns were confiscated, 184 Tomasic rifles were confiscated, 180

17 pistols and revolvers. 23.015 pieces of rounds of ammunition all in

18 illegally in possession of different individuals. Do you know about that?

19 A. Yes, I do but it wasn't relevant.

20 Q. Well, I understand that it wasn't relevant to you.

21 A. Well, I say this in my report, and in a way say that that was

22 true. I don't deny.

23 Q. Well, where do you say that?

24 A. In the sentence where it says, "The search for weapons held

25 without permit was the formal pretext, although - especially any in

Page 22467

1 Kosovo - it was often not only a pretext."

2 Q. Yes. But you just say that in reference to Kosovo. And precisely

3 because you just mention Kosovo there, I went on to quote exclusively not

4 Kosovo but Novi Pazar. Now, do you know, Mr. Babovic, that in the area of

5 Novi Pazar in 1994, four machine-guns were confiscate, 122 automatic

6 weapons, 320 pistols, 18 bombs, 16.000-odd pieces of ammunition, several

7 kilogrammes of explosive devices and so on. And these were all illegally

8 in the possession of individuals. Do you have facts and figure that was

9 kind? Have you heard of them?

10 A. Well, I did have them.

11 JUDGE MAY: Now, Mr. Milosevic, you must bring your questioning to

12 a close. You can have another two minutes to do that.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'm not going to be able to

14 complete my cross-examination at all, Mr. May, if you're restricting me

15 and limiting my time.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Mr. Babovic, you said that policemen unlawfully searched the

18 premises of Bosko Perosevic. Did you hear that the killer of Bosko

19 Perosevic, the prime minister of Vojvodina, a certain man called Lazovic,

20 who was subsequently arrested, before he killed Bosko Perosevic

21 distributed material to the organisation called Otpor, resistance? Have

22 you heard about that?

23 A. Well, I did hear about that, but I don't see the connection

24 between those two things. No direct connection.

25 Q. No direct connection?

Page 22468

1 Now may we have this placed on the ELMO. It is a pamphlet,

2 actually. It was by the former Vlajko Stojiljkovic. This little leaflet,

3 in his own handwriting, you can established that it is and these were the

4 leaflets that NATO planes threw during the aggression. It says, "What

5 Milosevic got during his term of office as president."

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] May this be placed on the ELMO,

7 please, on the overhead projector for us to have a look. Perhaps it will

8 assist us.


10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Is this propaganda material? Have we got it on the ELMO? Yes, we

12 have.

13 Well, take a look at this. It says, "What did Milosevic obtain

14 during his term of office as President?" This is quite obviously in some

15 villa along the Mediterranean coast and a four-tier yacht of some kind, a

16 four-deck yacht of some kind. So perhaps -- now, this is taken in some

17 Mediterranean country, and perhaps somebody will be able to recognise the

18 yacht and the villa and could tell us who they belonged to and who

19 invented all this. Do you know how much propaganda material of this kind

20 was presented here as to what Milosevic had? Take a look at this.

21 JUDGE MAY: What is the relevance to the witness's evidence? Wait

22 a moment.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The relevance is -- the relevance is

24 that the witness is saying what the police did with respect to

25 propaganda. Now, on this piece of paper, recorded by Vlajko Stojiljkovic,

Page 22469

1 it says these were the pamphlets and leaflets dropped from planes by NATO

2 during the aggression, all the dirty lies that they used at the time and

3 are still using today.

4 And, Mr. May, I've just read in the papers that Mrs. Del Ponte

5 said that certain --

6 JUDGE MAY: I'm going to stop all of this. It's absolutely

7 nothing to do with the witness.

8 Now, would you -- I'll ask the usher to return that document to

9 the witness -- to the accused.

10 Mr. Tapuskovic, have you got -- oh, Mr. Kay, you've got some

11 questions. Perhaps we could finish this by the adjournment, please.

12 Questioned by Mr. Kay:

13 Q. Dr. Babovic --

14 MR. KAY: If we could just look at that summary of key documents

15 which the Prosecution handed up at the start of yesterday's testimony. I

16 think the number it was given was 467. I just want to go through these

17 various laws.

18 Q. Let's start with number 5, law on the ranks. Are you looking in

19 the right part? You're not. Number 5, law on the ranks. Law on the

20 ranks of members of the Ministry of the Interior. And you told us that

21 there had been a recent decision in the Constitutional Court about this

22 law. My question is this: Is this law still in force in Serbia?

23 A. Yes, it is. However, I should like to mention that as of several

24 days ago, that particular provision was deemed unconstitutional.

25 Q. Was that in relation --

Page 22470

1 A. Declared unconstitutional.

2 Q. Was that in relation to the giving of ranks to foreigners, that

3 aspect of the law?

4 A. That aspect wasn't brought into question; although, I am surprised

5 to find that if the provisions of the law are considered null and void --

6 are declared null and void, because it refers to matters that does belong

7 under the letter of the law, why doesn't it apply to the next provision,

8 which also gives the President of the republic authorisations not given

9 him by the constitution.

10 Q. So as far as things stand, that is still a law in the Republic of

11 Serbia?

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. NICE: Your Honour, as I communicated earlier to Mr. Kay, we

14 do have the very brief newspaper report of this decision. And I can make

15 a copy available if you find one helpful.

16 MR. KAY: Thank you, Mr. Nice.

17 MR. NICE: The stapled versions. I've handed out some single

18 copies in English, but the stapled versions have the B/C/S and the English

19 version. And I'm grateful to Ms. Milenov for this, the B-92 station on

20 the 12th of June.

21 MR. KAY: Your Honours, as it's been mentioned in the evidence,

22 would it be appropriate to give it an exhibit number?

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Prosecution Exhibit 466, tab 17.

Page 22471

1 MR. KAY:

2 Q. Just going back to the summary, looking at number 6, the law on

3 internal affairs, and you cite various articles from that law. Is that

4 law still in force in Serbia today?

5 A. Yes, with the same proviso that I gave a moment ago.

6 Q. Looking at the regulations at tab 8, number 8, the MUP

7 regulations, is that still in force in Serbia today?

8 A. As far as these regulations are concerned, I think that later on

9 there were some amendments to it.

10 Q. The precise amendments, presumably, you're unable to help us with,

11 and I don't want any detail on that. Just say yes or no.

12 A. No.

13 Q. Looking at number 9, decision to establish a ministerial staff for

14 the suppression of terrorism of June 1998, is that still in force in

15 Serbia today?

16 A. That decision cannot be still in force because the police and

17 military forces from Kosovo withdrew in 1999.

18 Q. Looking at number 10, which deals with tab 7, rules of the

19 internal organisation of the state security service for the Republic of

20 Serbia, is that still in force in Serbia today?

21 A. No. Because the state security service no longer exists. What

22 exists is the security and information agency, as it's called.

23 Q. So has that set of rules been repealed as some kind of amendment

24 to the governing rules?

25 A. Yes, that's right.

Page 22472

1 Q. Looking at number 11, FRY law on defence, Article 17, is that

2 still in force in Serbia today?

3 A. Well, it's difficult to answer that question. In formal terms, it

4 is still in force in the legal system. It is a component part of the

5 legal system. However, the FRY no longer exists. What exists is another

6 state community. And so the question of the armed forces has been

7 regulated in a different manner. Although, not everything has been

8 completed. It is an ongoing process, in fact.

9 Q. Is the equivalent law applicable to the Republic of Serbia today?

10 A. It is being applied in the extent to which it is possible to apply

11 it under the new conditions that govern the area.

12 Q. Looking at number 12 here, tab 8, law on state administration with

13 amendments, Articles 43 to 46, is that still in force in the Republic of

14 Serbia today?

15 A. Yes. Yes.

16 Q. Going to number 14, tab 9, law on identity cards, is that still in

17 force in the Republic of Serbia today?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Number 15, tab 10, regulations governing work of the public

20 security service, is that still in force in the Republic of Serbia today?

21 A. Well, it's difficult to say again whether it is in force or not.

22 From my own personal experience, what I can tell you is that in about

23 three police stations where I asked them about these regulations nobody

24 can find them for me. So it's difficult to say whether it is still in

25 force or not. Formally and legally it is still in force, and it is the

Page 22473

1 set of regulations that should govern the work of the police.

2 Q. Number 16, decree on identification cards during the state of war,

3 is that still in force in the Republic of Serbia today?

4 A. That decree has been abolished.

5 Q. Number 17, tab 11, law on travel documents of Yugoslav citizens,

6 is that in force in the Republic of Serbia today?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. KAY: No further questions.

9 MR. NICE: Yes, I can finish --

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes, of course.

11 MR. NICE: -- by the break, I hope

12 Re-examined by Mr. Nice:

13 Q. Just a few matters, Mr. Babovic. The accused, on several

14 occasions, asked you a about your purpose in giving evidence. Let's

15 remind ourselves. You're, I think, Montenegrin by birth; correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You wrote the book that led to your being identified as a

18 potential expert of course well before your first contact with the OTP.

19 What was your purpose or intention in writing the book that expressed your

20 opinions?

21 A. It was the wish to draw the attention to the fact that problems

22 existed with respect to human rights in Serbia and if possible to

23 contribute to a respect of those rights.

24 Q. At the launch of your book, amongst others attending, were there

25 representatives of the MUPs themselves?

Page 22474

1 A. Representatives of the Federal Ministry of the Interior and the

2 police academy did attend the promotion of my book on international police

3 relations.

4 Q. Has there been any challenge to the accuracy of what's contained

5 in your book by representatives of the MUP since then, to your knowledge?

6 A. The only challenge came from the Assistant Federal Minister of the

7 Interior in 2000, in summer of the year 2000, when he claimed that I

8 copied out my Ph.D. thesis from somewhere else, although it was quite

9 clear that that was not possible because the problems of international

10 police relationships and the international police law as a new branch of

11 international public law, nobody had written about that beforehand, before

12 me, not only in Yugoslavia but in the world at large either.

13 Q. Your report for this court has been filed publicly. The accused

14 complains of your reference to 150.000 policemen being something that you

15 drew from a budget. Has that figure ever been challenged, other than by

16 the accused here?

17 A. That was never challenged, although it was published. It was made

18 public.

19 Q. You were asked on Friday about sources of information being

20 revealed to show the crimes by policemen, suggesting that this was

21 something that could be faithfully reported. To your knowledge, was there

22 any pattern of prosecution of police for crimes that they committed?

23 A. There were a certain number of cases in which policemen were taken

24 to court for certain offences and crimes they had committed. However --

25 actually, one case in point that took place in Belgrade, in which a person

Page 22475

1 of Romany decent was killed. Everything was covered up, and the policemen

2 were not taken to court.

3 There was another case with a young Serb from the surrounding

4 parts of Krusevo and a similar thing happened. Although there were some

5 cases in which police officers -- legal proceedings were taken to

6 prosecute police officers who committed crimes.

7 As for deaths occurring in prison, I don't know whether anybody

8 was held responsible for cases of that kind, and there is information from

9 various quarters that at least six individuals who were incarcerated in

10 Kosovo had lost their lives in the hands of the police -- at the hands of

11 the police.

12 Q. Are you able to assist us - and don't guess if you can't - as to

13 the match, if any, between the number of crimes recorded as committed and

14 the number of prosecutions of police officers that ensued?

15 A. I can't give you any precise data, but what I can tell you is that

16 the number of cases which were prosecuted was very low and could be said

17 to be just three or four, according to what was made public, and each of

18 those cases were made public.

19 Q. I have three more topics, each of them quite short. The first:

20 You spoke last week of how the structure envisaged oversight of police

21 activity. Your report deals with the fact that although it was envisaged,

22 it wasn't necessarily enforced after 1992. And then in the same topic,

23 you spoke of the international desire for accountability and

24 accountability at a local level of police and of the centralisation of

25 accountability of the police in the former Yugoslavia. And what I would

Page 22476

1 like your help on is this: Did the centralisation of which your report

2 speaks lead to more or less accountability in your judgement?

3 A. It certainly reduces accountability because all responsibility is

4 centralised in one place, so that accountability is not established

5 when -- where policemen are working and where they may commit any misdeeds

6 or offences, so that prosecution is centralised and all accountability is

7 centralised, with the exception of course of criminal responsibility,

8 when -- if proceedings need to be instituted against somebody, then it

9 would be the law enforcement bodies that would institute those. And in

10 those cases too the republican ministry would assist members of the

11 ministry who are the object of prosecution, who are being prosecuted.

12 Q. The second of my topic, this one being very short: Exhibit 277,

13 which we were looking at for some considerable period of time, which is

14 the one that dealt with the president's contact direct with MUP was said

15 to be founded on Article 83 of the Republic of Serbia. Did you regard

16 that -- I'll deal with it shortly. It's the decision of the 21st of April

17 of 1997 that dealt with the president of Serbia's right to have direct

18 contact with the RDB, number 7 on the summary list. In your judgement,

19 was that decision properly founded on Article 83 of the constitution?

20 MR. KAY: I don't think this witness can give an answer to that.

21 That's a matter of -- of law. He's here as an expert on the police. To

22 start asking whether he believes decisions were -- were properly founded,

23 in my submission, is outside the area of his proper expertise.

24 MR. NICE: He's been asked extensive questions by the accused on

25 the constitution and documents.

Page 22477

1 JUDGE MAY: Well, he can give an opinion. We'll decide what

2 weight to give it.


4 Q. Dr. Babovic, Article 83, and it's -- I've got a copy of the

5 article for you, if you'd like.

6 MR. NICE: Can we see Article -- Exhibit 277, please. It was

7 handed back.

8 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes. It's very difficult for the Registry to deal

10 with it.

11 MR. NICE: I'm sorry, yes, Your Honour. I thought it had gone

12 back to the Registry. And in fact it hadn't; it was on our desk. My

13 mistake.

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

15 MR. NICE:

16 Q. Dr. Babovic, if you're able to express a --

17 A. [In English] Yes. Yes. [Interpretation] Could you please repeat

18 your question.

19 Q. Yes. The exhibit we're looking at, the decision of the 21st of

20 April, is said at its head to be founded on Article 83 of the

21 constitution. Do you believe it to be soundly so founded?

22 A. It couldn't be said so, as the distinguished amicus pointed out;

23 I'm not a lawyer. But in my opinion, it cannot be said that it is based

24 on the constitution and that it emanates from the responsibility of the

25 president of the republic as prescribed by Article 83 of the constitution,

Page 22478

1 because by this decision in fact the system of communication and command

2 in the Ministry of the Interior is being changed.

3 Q. Finally, keeping an eye to the clock, you were asked -- it was

4 suggested to you that you were ascribing to the accused powers of the

5 government. Do you accept that there were powers of the government -- or

6 the president - I beg your pardon - to obtain reports on certain matters

7 from ministers? For example, the Minister of Internal Affairs?

8 A. The president of the republic can request of the government

9 reports on certain matters, and it is not stated anywhere that he may do

10 so from the ministry or, rather, the Ministry of Internal Affairs. Only

11 in the law on internal affairs is that right envisaged for the president

12 of the republic to be able to ask the minister directly about the state of

13 security in the republic.

14 Q. Thank you very much.

15 MR. NICE: I'm sorry I have overrun.

16 JUDGE MAY: Dr. Babovic, that concludes your evidence. Thank you

17 for coming to the International Tribunal to give it, and thank you for

18 making yourself available this morning in particular. You may now go.

19 We'll adjourn. We'll adjourn for 20 minutes.

20 MR. NICE: Your Honour, may I, just before we do adjourn, set the

21 timetable? Or would it be better later?

22 JUDGE MAY: Let's deal with it later, shall we?

23 [The witness withdrew]

24 --- Recess taken at 10.38 a.m.

25 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.

Page 22479

1 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Groome. We were expecting an answer from

2 Mr. Nice, I thought.

3 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. I've just contacted Mr. Nice. He

4 says he will be down at the 12.15 break to address a matter with the

5 Chamber.

6 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

7 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Prosecution calls B-1047.

8 Your Honour, perhaps while we're waiting, the Prosecution will be

9 tendering an exhibit of nine binders. If it could be assigned a number,

10 please.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Nine tabs, I hope.

12 MR. GROOME: Nine tabs. Excuse me.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 468.

14 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, there is perhaps one just preliminary

15 matter I could address while we're waiting. The witness is a protected

16 witness, and the Prosecution will be tendering some photos that have his

17 face depicted in them, and we would be of course asking that they be

18 tendered under seal.

19 However, for the purposes of keeping as much evidence in the

20 public domain as possible, we have prepared copies of those exhibits in

21 Sanction in which his face has been masked. It was our intention not to

22 formally tender the masked version, but simply display it on the monitor,

23 if that's acceptable to the Chamber.

24 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

25 Can we have the witness, please.

Page 22480

1 [The witness entered court]

2 JUDGE MAY: If the witness would take the declaration.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

4 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 Examined by Mr. Groome:

10 Q. Sir, you have been granted certain protective measures by the

11 Chamber. I will refer to you by your pseudonym, B-1047, during the course

12 of your testimony here today. I'd ask that we begin your testimony by

13 having you take a look at a document. It's tab 1 of Prosecution Exhibit

14 468. And my question to you is: Is that your name on the first line of

15 that document and is that your signature at the bottom of the page?

16 A. Your Honours, yes.

17 Q. To further protect your identity, we have listed the name of your

18 home village there. So if at any time during your testimony you need to

19 refer to that location, please just say "my village" and the Chamber will

20 know what village you are referring to.

21 MR. GROOME: I'm finished with that exhibit. Thank you, usher.

22 And I'd ask that that be placed under seal.

23 Q. Sir, drawing your attention to April of 1992. In what

24 municipality were you during that period of time?

25 A. Kljuc municipality.

Page 22481

1 Q. And did there come a time when the Kljuc municipality was taken

2 over?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. By who?

5 A. By the Serb authorities.

6 Q. Now, after the municipality of Kljuc was taken over, was there a

7 labour requirement or a labour obligation imposed upon the people there?

8 A. The Muslims, Bosniaks, had this work obligation.

9 Q. And did you yourself fulfil your obligation to do work?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. Did there come a time when your forced work obligation included

12 work at the frontline or the confrontation line?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you please describe for us when that was and where precisely

15 you were sent.

16 A. In 1993 I went to do my work obligation for the first time, and

17 this was at the front, called Grabez, near Bihac.

18 Q. And was there active fighting during the time when you were sent

19 there?

20 A. Yes, there was.

21 Q. And who also was sent with you there at the same time? Not so

22 much the names but just the number of people and their ethnicity.

23 A. There were 30 of us who were sent there on that occasion, and we

24 found there another 20 or so men who had left earlier on.

25 Q. And what was the ethnicity of the people, the approximate 50

Page 22482

1 people near Grabez?

2 A. They were all Bosniaks.

3 Q. How were you notified about this obligation at this time?

4 A. They sent a courier who brought with him the call-up papers.

5 Q. And do you know what would happen to anybody who refused to

6 respond to what you've termed a "call-up paper"?

7 A. They would be beaten up and sent to the frontline nevertheless.

8 Q. Was there another time in 1995 where you were once again sent to

9 the frontline?

10 A. Yes, in May 1995.

11 Q. Can you please describe what happened on that occasion.

12 A. On that occasion, the Serb police came early in the morning and

13 picked up me, Dursum Pajic, Zijad Bukvic, Dervis Sehic, Safet Sehic,

14 Mehmed Sehic, Osman Muratovic, and took us directly to a place called

15 Drenovo Kisela [phoen] not far from the Grabez barracks.

16 Q. And on this occasion, how long did you remain working at the

17 frontline?

18 A. Until the 13th of September.

19 Q. Now, if I can draw your attention once again to your work at the

20 frontline in 1993. Can you tell us what types of tasks were you given to

21 complete during your time at the frontline?

22 A. We had to dig trenches, to fortify those trenches, to carry food

23 for the Serb troops, water, and other heavy labour that needed to be done,

24 we had to do it.

25 Q. And once again, in -- from May to September of 1995, did you have

Page 22483

1 similar tasks or did you have any different tasks to perform?

2 A. Well, in the breaks, when we didn't go to the battlefield, we

3 would do work in my village. For instance, we had to cut wood for the

4 families of killed Serb combatants and various other activities, like

5 cutting the hay, the grass, and so on.

6 Q. Now, in September of 1995, can I ask you to explain to the Chamber

7 in terms of context, what was going on in the Bihac area and in the Sanski

8 Most area at that time?

9 A. On the 13th of September, the forces of the 5th Corps of the BH

10 army penetrated and broke through Serb lines, so that the Serb army

11 started withdrawing towards Sanski Most.

12 Q. Were you present working on the frontline when this occurred?

13 A. Yes, I was.

14 Q. And what did you and the other people there -- or the other

15 Bosniaks there on work obligation do when that happened?

16 A. We had to go together with the Serb army towards Sanski Most.

17 Q. And when you arrived in Sanski Most, were you given any

18 instructions by the Serbs in Sanski Most?

19 A. Before we reached the town itself, the soldiers who were from

20 Kljuc left us at the very entrance to Sanski Most. Then we were taken

21 over by soldiers from Drvar, whose intention it was to take us somewhere

22 to the battlefront at Manjaca. However, they also left us behind there,

23 saying that the order was that they couldn't take us with them. Just then

24 we learnt that the Kljuc troops or army that we belonged to under work

25 obligation was stationed in a place called Poljak, not far from Sanski

Page 22484

1 Most.

2 Q. During this period of time, from May 1995 up until the time you're

3 describing for us now, were you free to leave your work obligation and go

4 where you pleased?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Now, did you go to Poljak, near the town of Sanski Most?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And what did you do when you arrived there?

9 A. When we arrived there, we first washed in a stream. Then we found

10 a stable to stay in. Just then a soldier arrived, or shortly after that,

11 with a nice clean uniform on him, a camouflage uniform; whereas, the other

12 Serb soldiers that we belonged to under work obligation were not so nicely

13 dressed. And he asked the soldiers from Kljuc to give him a vehicle and

14 men to load ammunition from the Veleprom warehouse and to drive it in

15 front of the Sanus Hotel.

16 Q. I'm going to ask you a few more questions about that soldier.

17 You've described him as wearing a camouflage uniform. Did you see whether

18 or not he had any insignia or identifying markings on his camouflage

19 uniform?

20 A. Just then I didn't, but the soldiers from Kljuc asked him, "And

21 who is that ammunition and weapons for that we are going to take?" And he

22 answered that it was for Commander Arkan.

23 Q. Now, you've described yourself as being present when he addressed

24 you and some others. Was there anything distinctive about his dialect,

25 his manner of speaking?

Page 22485

1 A. Yes. We noticed immediately that this soldier was from Serbia.

2 Q. How was it that you were able to tell that he was from Serbia?

3 A. Because he used the Ekavian dialect in his speech.

4 Q. And is that a dialect that is unique to people from a particular

5 part of Serbia?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Was this soldier armed?

8 A. Yes, he was.

9 Q. What was he armed with?

10 A. He had an automatic rifle on him.

11 Q. Now, you've testified that he was requesting a vehicle to

12 transport munitions from the Veleprom factory. Can you please describe

13 for the Chamber, what is the Veleprom factory and where it's located.

14 A. It is a warehouse, Veleprom, situated in Poljak, not far from

15 Sanski Most, about a kilometre from Sanski Most.

16 Q. You testified he wanted to transport these munitions to the Hotel

17 Sanus. Where was that located?

18 A. The hotel is in the centre of Sanski Most.

19 Q. What happened after he made this request for a vehicle to move

20 these munitions?

21 A. A Serb soldier - his surname was Vojvodic - told us that we should

22 go and load the weapons from Veleprom, drive it to the Sanus Hotel, after

23 which we would come back.

24 Q. This Vojvodic, when you say a Serb soldier, do you mean a soldier

25 from Serbia or a local Bosnian Serb soldier?

Page 22486

1 A. From the ranks of Bosnian Serbs. I knew him well. He's from

2 Kljuc. But I can't remember his first name.

3 Q. Did you go -- did you do as he instructed you?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. On the way to Veleprom, did you hear any conversation between this

6 soldier and the other local soldiers or Bosnian Serb soldiers regarding

7 the purpose of Arkan's men coming to the Sanski Most area?

8 A. Yes, I heard that conversation. Arkan's soldiers said that they

9 had come to Sanski Most with the task of regaining control of Kljuc, which

10 had been taken by the 5th Corps, that is, the soldiers of the 5th Corps.

11 Q. Can you describe who was present on the truck, not necessarily the

12 names but just give us some idea of who was on the truck as it went to

13 Veleprom.

14 A. There was this soldier Vojvodic and Arkan's soldier, who had come

15 to fetch us.

16 Q. And what happened when you arrived at Veleprom warehouse?

17 A. We found there five or six of Arkan's soldiers, who ordered us to

18 load the ammunition, some mortar barrels as well that were there, and even

19 some stretchers for the wounded. They kept telling us to hurry up.

20 Q. Approximately how much time did you spend at the Veleprom

21 warehouse?

22 A. About half an hour, perhaps.

23 Q. And what happened after the truck was loaded?

24 A. Then we headed towards the Sanus Hotel.

25 Q. And how long did it take you to travel from Veleprom to the Sanus

Page 22487












12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts. Pages 22487 to 22493.













Page 22494

1 Hotel?

2 A. Ten minutes or so.

3 Q. What happened when you arrived at the Sanus Hotel?

4 A. When we arrived in front of the hotel itself, at the parking lot I

5 noticed some tanks, APCs, mortars, and in front there were about ten or so

6 of Arkan's soldiers there all the time. Across the way from the hotel

7 itself, in front of a building, I saw some civilians that were tied up.

8 They were tied to some pillars. Then they told us to wait, because we

9 couldn't unload the truck until the commander arrived and the commander

10 was somewhere in the field.

11 Q. Did you see any busses in the parking lot?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And was there anything on the busses to indicate where they were

14 from?

15 A. Yes. It said "Vukovar" on them. I am not quite sure whether it

16 was Autoprevoz Vukovar, but I am sure that the word "Vukovar" was written

17 on them.

18 Q. Now, the men you've described as being members of Arkan's unit,

19 how were you able to identify them as such?

20 A. Because the soldier from Kljuc spoke to one of Arkan's soldiers.

21 They spoke at length, to the effect that they have come there to regain

22 control of Kljuc, that the commander was in the field. They used the

23 Ekavian dialect in their speech and so on.

24 Q. And were you able to or did you form an impression regarding the

25 relationship between Arkan's men and the local Serb soldiers?

Page 22495

1 A. Afterwards I came to the conclusion that they were not on the best

2 of terms, as the local soldiers were fleeing, whereas Arkan's soldiers

3 rounded them up and brought them to the Sanus Hotel.

4 Q. You've mentioned two men being tied to a pole in this area. Did

5 there come a time when you found out what happened, why these men were

6 tied to a pole?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Please explain.

9 A. The Arkan's soldier explained to soldier Vojvodic that they were

10 men that Arkan had found drunk in Sanski Most, and that is why he had tied

11 them to this pole.

12 Q. Did you learn their ethnicity?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did there come a time when a person by the name of Mr. Rasula, the

15 president of Sanski Most, addressed you and other -- the other people you

16 were with?

17 A. Yes. The gentleman came to the truck where we were sitting, and

18 he asked whether any one of us had been drinking alcohol during the day.

19 If somebody had been drinking alcohol, then they should watch out for

20 Arkan.

21 Q. And how is it that you recognised Mr. Rasula?

22 A. I saw Mr. Rasula often on television, so I immediately recognised

23 him when he walked up to the truck.

24 Q. Now, sir, I'm going to ask you to take a look at Prosecution

25 Exhibit 468, tab 2. It is two photographs that will be displayed on a

Page 22496

1 television screen before you. If you have any difficulty seeing them, let

2 us know and we'll provide the original photographs.

3 Do you recognise the locations depicted in both of these

4 photographs? And I'd ask you to start by telling us about the photograph

5 on the top, ending in number 110.

6 A. Yes, I recognise this.

7 Q. And what do you recognise that to be?

8 A. On the first photograph, we see the very entrance into the Hotel

9 Sanus.

10 Q. And can I ask you to describe what is depicted in the second

11 photograph, ending in ERN number 11, 1-1.

12 A. In the second photograph, the door can be seen, the one that leads

13 into the room where Mr. Arkan had been.

14 Q. Now, when you arrived at the Sanus Hotel, did you begin to unload

15 the weapons and munitions that were on the truck?

16 A. No, not immediately. We had to wait for Arkan to come.

17 Q. And how long did you wait before -- did there come a time when

18 Arkan did come? And if so, how long did you wait?

19 A. As soon as it was dusk, a soldier came and said that the truck

20 could park in front of Sanus, and that's when we started unloading the

21 ammunition and the other goods.

22 Q. And where did you bring the ammunition and other goods?

23 A. We brought it into the Sanus Hotel. This is a door that is

24 different from the one that I showed in the picture, where Arkan was.

25 Q. And what happened after you unloaded the weapons and other goods?

Page 22497

1 A. When we were just about to finish unloading this, a soldier told

2 us finally that we would go into the hotel and that we would be examined

3 by Arkan.

4 Q. Did you go into the hotel?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Where precisely in the hotel did you go?

7 A. Right behind the entrance door there was a pool table. We were

8 ordered to line up by that pool table.

9 Q. Can you describe what you saw in that area of the hotel at that

10 time.

11 A. When we got in, I saw an old man who was cutting the hair of Serb

12 soldiers. This man was a Bosniak. The soldiers were stopping -- were

13 standing in a line, and he was shaving their heads. I noticed that they

14 were then taken into the busses that were out in front. I think that they

15 were returned to the frontline yet again then.

16 Q. What was the purpose of shaving their heads, if you know?

17 A. Well, I don't know exactly, but I assume that quite simply these

18 are soldiers who were being marked for being deserters, for running away,

19 things like that.

20 Q. Was Arkan present in that part of the hotel?

21 A. Yes. Arkan got out through the first door that I showed.

22 Q. And what, if anything, did he say at this point in time?

23 A. He asked who these people were. A soldier said that these were

24 the men who had unloaded the ammunition. He then walked up to soldier

25 Vojvodic. He asked him who he was. He answered, he gave his name and

Page 22498

1 surname. He asked him three times, and then he said that he could go and

2 that we should stay. Then he asked us individually what our names were.

3 After that he showed us a hall and told us to stand there, to wait, and

4 that there would be work for us and that we would be engaged in doing this

5 work. That's exactly what we did. We went to that hall and stood there.

6 Q. In this part of the hotel, how many men were there that were not

7 part of the local Serb army and were not members of the group that you

8 were with? Can you tell us approximately how many men were there and

9 describe what they were wearing?

10 A. Could you please repeat your question? I didn't quite understand

11 it.

12 Q. Aside from yourself, the men in your group, and any local Serb

13 soldiers, can you describe who else was present in the lobby of the hotel.

14 A. Arkan's soldiers were there. They were going up and down the

15 stairs. So I don't know what the exact number was. They kept going up

16 and down. Then this man who was shaving people's heads, and in the

17 meantime some other men were brought in front of the hotel. I didn't

18 really see. I just heard some noise, some clamoring. That's the way it

19 was.

20 Q. When you say Arkan at this point in time, was he wearing anything

21 on his head?

22 A. Yes. He wore a red beret.

23 Q. And do you remember seeing any insignia on that beret?

24 A. Yes. Yes. On the beret, there were four Cyrillic S's, and then

25 the letters saying "Serbian Volunteer Guard" were in a circle.

Page 22499

1 Q. The other men with Arkan, do you recall what, if anything, they

2 were wearing on their heads?

3 A. Some wore black berets; others had black woollen camps. While, the

4 ones who were closer to Arkan, I think, all had red berets.

5 Q. Did there come a time when you saw somebody who you believed was a

6 colonel or a lieutenant colonel?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you please describe that person as best you can for us.

9 A. The man was rather short. His hair was cut short. He was

10 sturdily built. He walked into the toilet and the door leading to the

11 toilet was opposite where we were standing. As he was walking back from

12 the toilet, he looked straight at me. He then asked me whether I was a

13 Turk. But his tone of voice was such that I simply had to answer yes. He

14 asked me three times. Every time he was speaking louder and louder, and

15 every time I answered him. Then he told me to sit down. I sat down on

16 the tiles, on the floor. He told me that I was supposed to sit like Turks

17 sat when they wanted to dine, that I should cross my legs, and that's

18 exactly what I did. Then he said that I should lower my head as far as I

19 could, close to the floor, and then he told everybody else to do so too.

20 Then he placed a soldier in front of us and said that if any one of us

21 moved, that the soldier should shoot us with a bullet in our heads.

22 Q. How long did you remain there in that position?

23 A. Well, until 2.30 a.m.

24 Q. Approximately how many other Bosniaks or Muslims were in the room

25 with you in -- sitting down in that position?

Page 22500

1 A. Seven more Bosniaks were brought in, and then there were the five

2 of us.

3 Q. Did there come a time when two Muslims or two Bosniaks were

4 brought into the room and accused of celebrating in advance of the Bosnian

5 army's success in Sanski Most?

6 A. Yes. Yes.

7 Q. Can you describe what happened when they were brought in.

8 A. Then Arkan ordered these soldiers who had brought them in to tie

9 them up outside to some trees that were in front of the Sanus Hotel.

10 Q. Of the people that were present in the hotel, are you able to say

11 whether or not Arkan spoke with each of the prisoners there?

12 A. Yes. Every man who was brought in first had to stand in front of

13 Arkan and speak to him, so I came to the conclusion that nothing should

14 happen there without him knowing about it.

15 Q. Did there come a time when a local Serb major had a discussion

16 with Arkan regarding granting vacation leave to another soldier?

17 A. Yes. When a soldier was brought in by Arkan's men, said that he

18 had received permission from the major to leave the frontline. After

19 that, Arkan immediately issued orders to have this major brought to the

20 Sanus Hotel, which is exactly what his men did. When the major arrived, I

21 heard Arkan saying to him, "How can you let men go when the situation is

22 the most difficult for the Serb people? I brought my own son, and he's up

23 there at the frontline."

24 Q. Now, during this point in time, Arkan had no legal authority over

25 VRS soldiers. Did you form an impression regarding -- or strike that.

Page 22501

1 Did this major or any of his men protest or resist Arkan when he called

2 the major before him?

3 A. No. No.

4 Q. You testified earlier about a barber shaving the heads of Serb

5 deserters. Approximately how many men altogether had their head shaves

6 while you were present?

7 A. I could not give you an exact number, because at one point in

8 time -- I mean, I was there, sitting with my head down for five or six

9 hours, so I couldn't really see. But they were being brought in all the

10 time.

11 Q. Did there come a time when you and other men in the group were

12 ordered to unload a truck outside the hotel?

13 A. Yes. At one point in time, we heard a truck coming up to the

14 entrance. Then they told us to get up and to unload something outside. I

15 and many others could not readily get to their feet because quite simply

16 our legs were numb because we had sat that way for so long. When we

17 somehow managed to get up and reach the truck, we saw some books there,

18 some kind of archives. We heard in passing that these were the archives

19 of the Party of Democratic Action that were found in Sanski Most. We were

20 told that we should unload this quickly and pile it up in front of the

21 hotel.

22 Q. What time of the day was this, please?

23 A. It was around 2.30 a.m.

24 Q. And what day was this?

25 A. I don't remember the day. I remember the date though. It was the

Page 22502

1 morning of the 20th of September, 1995.

2 Q. What happened after you unloaded these SDA files?

3 A. We were told to go back to the place where we were supposed to be.

4 I was the first one to go to that hall. All of a sudden we heard the

5 following: "Go back. They have to go back." At that moment, when we

6 turned around to go back, I was the last man in that line. When I got

7 outside, I saw them tying men in pairs, the men from my group, and they

8 brought them onto a truck. They were actually handcuffing everyone, so

9 they handcuffed me as well. I was handcuffed to a man I didn't know. We

10 boarded the truck. At that moment, they were looking for some Zeljo.

11 "Where is Zeljo?" And he was supposed to go with us. When this Zeljo

12 arrived, I saw that he couldn't have been older than 15 or 16. He was

13 very young. He wore a uniform which was the same like the uniform worn by

14 all of the other men, Arkan's men. Then they put the tarpaulin down,

15 three of these soldiers sat with us underneath the tarpaulin. And then

16 they ignited the truck and we set out in a direction that we were not

17 aware of.

18 We drove on for about half an hour that way, and then the truck

19 stopped. From the truck cab we heard them getting out. Then they lifted

20 the tarpaulin. And then these three soldiers jumped off the truck, and

21 soon they said, "Come on. Get off, you two." These two got off. And

22 soon two gunshots were heard. According to the sound, I could tell that

23 they were shooting indoors.

24 Soon after that, these same persons returned to the truck. I

25 asked one of them very softly what happened to them. But he just put his

Page 22503

1 finger on his lips; I noticed that. And he kept quiet. And then they

2 said, "Next." Again, two gunshots were heard, but they did not return to

3 the truck. So my turn came as well. I got off the truck, together with

4 the man to whom I had been handcuffed. Then they took us by a house that

5 did not have a roof. Behind it we saw a smaller house with a garage.

6 They took us into the garage. One of them started taking off our

7 handcuffs, and the other one had a torchlight on. At that moment I said,

8 "People, can you not kill us somehow?" And then Arkan's soldier said,

9 "Yes. You're lucky. You're lucky to be in Arkan's hands. Give us 5.000

10 Deutschmark each, get into the truck, and we'll drive you to your homes."

11 At that moment I said that I was from Kljuc. While the other man

12 who was handcuffed said that he had 200 Deutschmark. He swore at these

13 200 Deutschmark and said that we should get into this little room that was

14 within this garage. Then I looked in the direction where the man -- the

15 soldier had his torchlight on. I saw bodies lying. I saw pools of blood.

16 So I turned around together with this man and walked inside. As soon as I

17 got in, a bullet hit me in my left shoulder and -- shoulder blade and I

18 immediately fell to the ground. I kept quiet. Then they brought two more

19 men, and I heard just one gunshot. Then one of Arkan's soldiers started

20 swearing at this man who had fallen before a bullet was fired into him.

21 Then I heard the soldier start his weapon, opening a burst of gunfire at

22 this man. One bullet went through my left leg.

23 Then they brought those two men who had left the truck first and

24 were subsequently returned. I heard them order them to kneel. One of

25 them was begging, "Don't, please." And the other one started swearing at

Page 22504

1 him and said, "Kneel, Bre." Then I heard a knife being taken out of the

2 scabbard and then this soldier said, "Zeljo, you can do the honours. You

3 can do the best part of the job." This young soldier of Arkan's slit the

4 throats of these two men.

5 Then we could hear other people gurgling in that pile of human

6 bodies. And then one of Arkan's soldiers said, "Well, some of them are

7 still alive. We heard a voice." And then another voice said, "Well, just

8 shoot them in the head." So the light fell on my face too. I heard a

9 gunshot then, and I was hit in the chin, on the right side in the chin

10 area. Then they boarded the truck. And when I heard them leave, when I

11 heard the truck leaving, I asked whether anybody was still alive. I put

12 this question several times; however, nobody answered. Since my left arm

13 was numb, I put my left hand on my belt, the belt on my trousers, and I

14 somehow managed to get up. I got out of that room and set out towards the

15 road. I thought I could not take this for very long. I thought I'd die

16 very soon, so I wanted to be somewhere by the road so that someone could

17 find me.

18 From time to time, I couldn't see anything, and then I could see

19 again. And at one point I felt very thirsty. So I started walking along

20 the road, trying to find some water.

21 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Let counsel ask some questions now to

22 clarify any matters and also possibly to shorten things.


24 Q. Sir, how many men were led off the truck and shot in that room

25 that night?

Page 22505

1 A. Twelve men were taken. Eleven were killed.

2 Q. And of those 12 men, how many of them whose names did you know?

3 A. Four of them.

4 Q. Can I ask you to tell us their names.

5 A. They were Mehmed Sehic, Safet Sehic, Dervis Sehic, and Osman

6 Muratovic.

7 Q. And were any of these men who were killed, were any of them close

8 friends of yours?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Which ones?

11 A. I would say Mehmed Sehic.

12 Q. I'm going to ask you to take a look at some photographs. The

13 first one is Prosecution Exhibit 468, tab 3. It's the house that has a

14 photograph -- it's a photograph of a house. I'd ask you to look at it on

15 the television screen before you and ask you: Do you recognise that

16 house?

17 A. Yes, I can recognise it.

18 Q. Can you describe what you recognise it to be.

19 A. In front of this first building the truck that brought us was

20 parked. And behind this bigger building is the smaller building where the

21 massacre took place.

22 Q. If I could draw your attention to tab 4 of 468. And I'd ask you:

23 You recognise the building in this photograph?

24 A. Yes, I do. This is the garage through which you would enter a

25 small room where they executed us.

Page 22506

1 Q. And finally, if you would take a look at Prosecution Exhibit 468,

2 tab 5.

3 A. That's precisely the room I mentioned where the massacre took

4 place.

5 Q. Now, you've mentioned --

6 MR. GROOME: I'm finished with that exhibit. Thank you.

7 Q. You've mentioned being shot. How many times altogether or how

8 many gunshot wounds altogether did you sustain?

9 A. Three bullets hit me.

10 Q. And can you summarise again where on your body you sustained those

11 gunshot wounds.

12 A. One bullet hit me in the left shoulder by my collarbone, next to

13 my collarbone. The second one hit me in my chin. And the third hit my

14 leg.

15 Q. I'm going to ask that you take a look at four photographs which

16 make up -- I'm sorry, five photographs which make up Prosecution Exhibit

17 468, tab 6. Are these photographs of the injuries that you've described

18 here in your testimony?

19 I'm sorry, your answer wasn't --

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, you received extensive medical treatment for these injuries.

22 JUDGE MAY: Before we go on, Mr. Groome, I think we should clarify

23 whereabouts the house and garage are, so that we have that located.


25 Q. Sir, at the time of the massacre, did you know where it was that

Page 22507

1 you had been brought?

2 A. At that point in time, no, I didn't.

3 Q. Did there come a time when you did learn where it was that this

4 massacre took place?

5 A. Yes, I did. I learnt that later on from one of the soldiers at

6 Kljuc to whom I told what had happened to me, and he said that that place

7 was called Trnovo.

8 Q. And do you know where that location is with respect to the town of

9 Sanski Most?

10 A. I couldn't tell you exactly how many kilometres away it is, but

11 it's not far from Sanski Most.

12 Q. I'm going to ask that you be shown Prosecution Exhibit 468, and my

13 question to you is: Are these the medical records of the treatment you

14 received for the injuries you sustained that night?

15 MR. GROOME: I'm sorry, tab 7.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And can I ask you: Did you suffer any permanent consequences from

18 the injuries you sustained?

19 A. Yes. I'm 60 per cent an invalid, and I will be for the rest of my

20 life.

21 Q. I would now ask you to take a look at Prosecution Exhibit 468, tab

22 8. Do you recognise what this document is? What I recognise here are the

23 people who were shot, not all of them, but some of them.

24 Q. And the names that you told us the people you knew, do their names

25 appear on this list?

Page 22508

1 A. Yes. Under number 3, Osman Muratovic; number 4, Safet Sehic;

2 number 5, Mehmed Sehic; and then number 9, Dervis Sehic.

3 Q. Last week were you asked --

4 MR. GROOME: I'm finished with that exhibit. Thank you.

5 Q. Last week were you asked to look at a videotape of a number of

6 corpses, the video being taken by some investigators from the Bosnian

7 government?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And did you recognise some of the names on the name tags on the

10 bodies as well as some of the clothing that was worn in that video by the

11 victims?

12 A. Yes. I recognised the names, and I recognised the clothing worn

13 by Mehmed Sehic.

14 Q. And can you describe for the record what that clothing looked like

15 in the video.

16 A. I remembered the jumper Mehmed Sehic was wearing very well, but I

17 couldn't recognise the rest because the bodies were already

18 disintegrating.

19 Q. Were any of the bodies -- or did any of the people who were shot

20 that day have on military uniforms or were they armed in any way?

21 A. No, nobody was wearing a military uniform nor were they armed.

22 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I'm going to ask that at least a portion

23 of this video be played for the witness to establish that it was the video

24 he looked at earlier or last week. It's a five and a half minute video.

25 I'm not sure that the Chamber would want the entire video played. But

Page 22509

1 I'll be guided by the Chamber on how much of the video is played for the

2 witness.

3 JUDGE MAY: Would you select the passages which you think most

4 appropriate.

5 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, perhaps I will play the first 30 seconds

6 so he can establish that it was the video that he looked at in its

7 entirety.



10 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you to look at the video screen in front of

11 you, and we will now play the video. And I will ask you to confirm

12 whether or not it's the video you viewed last week.

13 [Videotape played]

14 Q. Do you recognise this video, sir?

15 A. Yes. Yes.

16 Q. Do you need to look at more of it to -- to tell us with certainty

17 whether it's the video that you saw in which you recognised the clothing

18 and the names of the other people that were killed on that night?

19 A. Yes, that's the footage. And those are the people.

20 MR. GROOME: Okay. We can stop the video now.

21 I have no further questions, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

23 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

24 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. 1047, on page 2, paragraph 5 of your

25 statement you say that the Serbs took Kljuc in April 1992; is that right?

Page 22510

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So who did the Serbs seize Kljuc from, in fact?

3 A. Well, first of all, they proclaimed the police force the Serb

4 police, and the Bosniaks and Croats from the police force they expelled.

5 Then in the municipality all the Bosniaks and Croats were sacked and their

6 jobs -- in their jobs were put people of Serb ethnicity.

7 Q. And do you have any personal knowledge about the fact that all

8 Croats and Muslims were sacked, dismissed from their jobs?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Who told you that?

11 A. I know for sure that nobody worked after that.

12 Q. Tell me, how many Serbs lived in Kljuc before April 1992?

13 A. I can't say. I don't know.

14 Q. Did you take part in the fighting around Kljuc?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Was a Muslim Crisis Staff set up in Kljuc, as it was in other

17 places?

18 A. I don't know that. I don't know that because I wasn't able to go

19 to Kljuc. You needed a special permit if you wanted to go into town.

20 Q. I'm talking about before April 1992.

21 A. I don't know. I really can't say.

22 Q. Did you have to have a special permit to go into town before April

23 1992?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Tell me, please - and I'm talking about the time before April

Page 22511

1 1992, when, as you say, the Serbs took control of Kljuc - so before that

2 time in Kljuc was there an organisation that was called the Patriotic

3 League that was functioning?

4 A. I don't know that.

5 Q. All right. Tell me, then, were you in the town of Kljuc at all

6 before April 1992?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Well, did you take part in any activities on the part of the

9 Muslim forces in Kljuc?

10 A. Absolutely not, no.

11 Q. And do you have any knowledge of Muslim forces in Kljuc before

12 April 1992, that they were there?

13 A. No.

14 Q. You didn't see anybody there?

15 A. No, I did not.

16 Q. I can see from your statement that you stayed in your own village

17 after April 1992; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Was that a purely Muslim village?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did any of the Muslims leave your village at all?

22 A. I don't know that anybody left.

23 Q. So you all stayed on; is that right?

24 A. Yes. If you mean during the war, whether anybody left.

25 Q. Yes, that's what I did mean.

Page 22512

1 A. Well, a lot of people did leave my village. Yes, they did.

2 Q. But you remained? How come?

3 A. Well, I remained because when I wanted to get my travelling

4 papers, they stopped this process and said that nobody was allowed to

5 leave any more.

6 Q. So they didn't allow the population to leave the area; is that

7 right?

8 A. They kept back some of the inhabitants so that those inhabitants

9 could do the dirtiest jobs. And even some Serbs confirmed this because

10 this was to show the world that they were not actually expelling the

11 Muslim, Bosniak people.

12 Q. So they said that you should stay so that they could demonstrate

13 to the world that they weren't expelling the Muslims; is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. All right. On page 2, paragraphs 5 and 6 you say that you had a

16 work assignment which included various jobs either up at the frontline or

17 in Kljuc itself; is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You said you had to dig trenches and a moment ago said you had to

20 fetch and carry for the army food and water and so on; is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, do you happen to know that a work obligation or task was

23 something that was assigned to the Serbs too who weren't part of the army?

24 A. Yes, they did have a labour obligation, but in companies in town,

25 where they had worked prior to the war.

Page 22513

1 Q. All right. And do you know that they were given a choice, either

2 to join up, to join the army, or to accept this work obligation or labour

3 obligation which was compulsory?

4 A. We weren't offered to take up arms and join the army. That wasn't

5 the choice we had. All they did was to make us do our labour obligations.

6 Q. Yes, but I'm asking you about the Serbs. Did you know that the

7 Serbs had a choice that they could either join up or have a work

8 obligation?

9 A. Yes, I do know about that.

10 Q. All right. Tell me, then, please: As you say you drug trenches,

11 fetch and carried for the army food and water and so on, did you eat and

12 were you supplied with food like the army was?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And where did you live? In your village throughout that time?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So you would go home regularly, after you had performed your

17 labour obligation.

18 A. Not regularly, no. We would do our work for a month or two and

19 then go home. And soon as we would arrive home, the local Serbs would

20 engage us to do some tasks for them and we didn't dare say no, refuse.

21 Q. All right. Now, when you were going back to your village after

22 your labour obligation and then came back, were you escorted under armed

23 forces or were you free to move around, to go back to your village freely

24 and then back again to your work obligation?

25 A. When we would come back from Kljuc itself, having accomplished our

Page 22514

1 obligation, we would go alone. But we were escorted to Kljuc by soldiers.

2 Q. So you would come in when some jobs had to be done and then they

3 would come and fetch you; is that right?

4 A. Would you repeat that? I'm not sure I'm following you.

5 Q. I was saying you would go into Kljuc when somebody came to call

6 you to go to Kljuc, and then you'd go to Kljuc with them. But on the

7 return journey for your free time you would go alone. That's how I

8 understood it. Is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And I made a note of this here from what you were saying. In the

11 village, when you were in your village, you would chop wood, you would mow

12 the fields and so on.

13 A. Yes, and repair the local roads and paths, that kind of thing.

14 Q. All right. Did you have an obligation to wear any kind of uniform

15 at the time?

16 A. No.

17 Q. And during that period of time, while you were in your own

18 village, did you live normally, watch television, live like anybody else?

19 A. During the daytime, you could live like anybody else. But at

20 night we had to sleep in the meadows and fields, in the gardens and yards,

21 in the woods.

22 Q. But if you went back to your village, I assume you slept in the

23 village, didn't you?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Well, you slept at home, in your own house, didn't you?

Page 22515

1 A. I've just said we didn't dare sleep in our own homes, or very

2 rarely.

3 Q. All right. You mentioned the mayor of Sanski Most, Rasula, and

4 said that you had seen him on television many times. So where were you

5 watching television?

6 A. We were able to watch television from time to time because there

7 wasn't electricity on a regular basis.

8 Q. Yes, but you watched television in your own home, not in fields,

9 meadows, woods, or wherever.

10 A. Well, yes, and we watched it in the house of a good colleague of

11 ours. I don't want to mention his name. We're still very good friends,

12 and he's a Serb.

13 Q. So throughout that time, you were wearing civilian clothes. You

14 never had any army uniforms or insignia or anything of that kind, as far

15 as I understood it. Is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And who was your immediate superior when you went about your

18 obligations?

19 A. He was Drago Ivanovic. That was his name.

20 Q. And what was he?

21 A. I think he was the head of the civil defence and Territorial

22 Defence. I think civil defence, actually.

23 Q. And these various work obligations and jobs, like repairing roads

24 and various other things, did that come under the Territorial Defence

25 tasks, civil defence tasks?

Page 22516

1 A. But not escorted by armed personnel.

2 Q. Well, were you a member of a unit within the Army of Republika

3 Srpska?

4 A. When we went to the frontline, for a time we were sent to the

5 Drvar army, and the rest of the time with the Kljuc army.

6 Q. So you performed your work obligations either within the unit of

7 Republika Srpska from Drvar or from Kljuc; is that right? Is that it?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And as far as I was able to gather, mostly under the Kljuc unit;

10 right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Tell me now, please: When you were performing these work

13 obligations, was there any fighting going on at that time?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Well, were you present when there was fighting or combat going on?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And what did you see happen? Who was fighting whom?

18 A. The fighting was between the army to which we belonged, within the

19 frameworks of our work obligation, and the army -- the soldiers of the 5th

20 Corps of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

21 Q. So that was the frontline between the Army of Republika Srpska and

22 the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that right?

23 A. Yes, that's right.

24 Q. And as far as I understand it, you didn't have the status of a

25 prisoner of war at all. You said yourself you were free to move around

Page 22517

1 and you engaged in this work organisation as a citizen of the Kljuc

2 municipality.

3 A. Well, I don't know what you mean by "free to move around," when we

4 were always under guard, armed persons escorting us.

5 Q. But you said a moment ago when you were done your work obligation,

6 were free to leave and to go to your village that nobody escorted you.

7 A. Yes. But we went home at great risk. We were always very much

8 afraid that we wouldn't meet somebody on the road home.

9 Q. Well, I assume that if you were allowed to go home, that you

10 didn't flee. You had permission to return home. Isn't that so?

11 A. Yes.

12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, when you get to a convenient time,

13 we're going to break.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I see. It's time for the break.

15 Well, that's fine, Mr. May. We can break now.

16 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

17 Witness B-1047, we're going to break now for 20 minutes. Could

18 you remember, please, not to speak to anybody about your evidence until

19 it's over, and that includes the members of the Prosecution team. Could

20 you be back, please, in 20 minutes.

21 --- Recess taken at 12.21 p.m.

22 --- On resuming at 12.47 p.m.

23 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you have three-quarters of an hour left

24 if you want for this witness.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 22518

1 Q. Mr. 1047, since you were staying in your own house at that time,

2 where was your family at that time?

3 A. In the same house.

4 Q. Did they have any problems?

5 A. Occasionally they had problems, until a Serb spared us and helped

6 us and relieved us of many of those problems.

7 Q. You say that in 1995 you were assigned to a unit of the Army of

8 Republika Srpska from Kljuc that was accommodated in Poljak, a village

9 close to Sanski Most; is that right?

10 A. Yes, that is where they were quartered, after they had withdrawn

11 from the Bihac battlefront.

12 Q. And then following orders, you went to Poljak to find your unit

13 commanders; is that right?

14 A. Not following orders. We set off on our own, because we had no

15 other choice.

16 Q. So you set off on your own and no one was escorting you, were

17 they?

18 A. Through the town itself, no one. But up to the town, there were

19 six soldiers accompanying us always.

20 Q. But over there you were free, weren't you?

21 A. In the town itself, we were free to pass through to reach Poljak.

22 Q. How far is Poljak from the town?

23 A. I think about 1 kilometre.

24 Q. So as you were passing through the town itself, going to Poljak,

25 there was no armed escort that could prevent you from escaping if you had

Page 22519

1 decided to do that.

2 A. No, there wasn't.

3 Q. Why, then, were you forced to go there? Why didn't you escape?

4 A. Because we didn't know which direction to take in fleeing, because

5 there were troops everywhere around us and we didn't know who was where.

6 Q. Tell me, how do you explain the fact that together with other

7 members of your group you were moving freely in territory under control of

8 the Serb force and you reported to the unit commander to whom you had been

9 assigned?

10 A. We had been left to our own resources, and we simply had to go

11 through the town on our own. That was the only choice we had.

12 Q. A moment ago, looking at a videotape, you recognised bodies,

13 though I didn't have the impression that one could recognise anything on

14 that tape. But I would now like you to look at a tape and then I'll ask

15 you a question.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, it won't take more than a

17 minute. It was taken in those days in the surroundings of Sanski Most.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. And I will put a question to you in advance. That is, my question

20 is: Do you recognise anyone on the tape? Do you know who they were? As

21 you can see them very clearly, unlike what we saw on the previous tape.

22 [Videotape played]

23 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Have you surrendered? Do you know

24 me?

25 No, I don't.

Page 22520

1 Where are you from?

2 What do you mean you don't know? Who is he?

3 The army.

4 And where are they from?

5 From different countries.

6 And why are they coming?

7 They're coming to fight.

8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters apologise. We do not have a

9 transcript and it is very hard to follow.

10 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] You don't have to live at all, I will

11 kill you, the killer promised. That is how on the 16th of October --

12 these were Serbs. Who's going to --

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] You can stop now. That is enough.

14 Q. These are Serb victims. Did you recognise this warrant officer

15 who was captured and later on slaughtered there? And did you recognise

16 any of the men around him from the 5th Corps corps? This was filmed by a

17 cameraman of the 5th Corps of the Muslim army.

18 A. I did not recognise anyone.

19 Q. Very well. On page 4, paragraph 3 you say - and on page 5, first

20 paragraph - you describe the events while you were at the Sanus Hotel in

21 Sanski Most and you describe the conversation between Zeljko Raznjatovic,

22 Arkan, and a certain JNA officer -- no, I'm sorry, an officer of the VRS;

23 is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And a moment ago you said that Raznjatovic criticised this officer

Page 22521

1 for allowing his soldiers to go home; is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And was all this happening at the time when the VRS was

4 withdrawing after the NATO bombing?

5 A. I am not familiar with the NATO bombing because it didn't happen

6 in the parts where we were.

7 Q. And you quoted - and I noted down here - that Arkan said, "How

8 dare you allow men to go on leave when the situation is so difficult?

9 I've brought my son here, and he's on the frontline."

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So in that chaos he was even trying to keep hold of the line. He

12 even brought his son who on the frontline could also have been killed.

13 Isn't that right?

14 JUDGE MAY: Well, the witness can't answer that. It's merely what

15 Arkan said. Whether it's true or not is not for the witness.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. And this young soldier that you describe, he was sent back to the

18 front; is that right?

19 A. I think so, yes.

20 Q. Tell me, when this was happening, you were still a captive.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. How did you then manage to hear the conversation between Arkan and

23 this soldier?

24 A. Because the conversation was taking place a couple of metres away

25 from me.

Page 22522

1 Q. So you were all present and you heard that conversation, your

2 whole group. Did I understand you correctly?

3 A. Yes, you did.

4 Q. In view of the fact that you say that they also discussed some

5 other things, tell us, what other things did they discuss?

6 A. I personally don't know what else they talked about, but this I

7 remembered very well, and that is what I said.

8 Q. So the conversation wasn't in an office but in the corridor, where

9 you were all present.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And what was happening in Arkan's office that you mentioned that

12 was right next to the entrance?

13 A. I don't know that anyone else went inside except for Arkan, who

14 would go inside occasionally into that office.

15 Q. On page 5, paragraph 3 of your statement, you say that members of

16 the Serbian Volunteer Guards, that is, Arkan's Guards, after completing

17 their work assignments had -- tied you up two by two and loaded you onto a

18 truck.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And after transferring you to a particular place, two men from the

21 truck were taken in an unknown direction; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And then you heard two shots?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Immediately after that, those two returned safe and sound and

Page 22523

1 climbed onto the truck; is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you ever explain this situation to yourself? Because you say

4 later on that there were executions.

5 A. I came to the conclusion that this was done for us to believe that

6 that is how we, too, would fair, that we would return safe and sound to

7 the truck so as not to provoke panic which would prompt us to try to flee

8 or something like that.

9 Q. In the trailer, were any members of Arkan's unit with you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. But you asked those two what had happened.

12 A. Yes, quietly.

13 Q. But you didn't get an answer.

14 A. No, none.

15 Q. And after that, with another person, you were taken to a spot

16 where you say executions took place.

17 A. I was the fourth in order. I was the fourth to get off the truck.

18 There were three pairs in front of us and then the two of us got off.

19 Q. And that is where you saw those men killed?

20 A. Yes, when they showed us to go inside, I looked around, and I saw

21 those men.

22 Q. Tell me, please: Since you had your back turned to the soldiers

23 that were shooting at you, how many soldiers were shooting at you?

24 A. They shot individually.

25 Q. How many were there in all in the truck with you?

Page 22524

1 A. There were three soldiers with us under a tarpaulin.

2 Q. And who -- which unit did those soldiers belong to?

3 A. They were Arkan's men.

4 Q. All three of them?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. How do you know that?

7 A. Because they spoke the Ekavian dialect.

8 Q. So you say that when they -- when you were climbing up onto the

9 truck they said that a young man was due to come and you said he was 15 or

10 16 and they called him Zeljo.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And Zeljo, as you know, is not a name used in Serbia but

13 exclusively in Bosnia. Is that right or not?

14 A. I don't know that.

15 Q. In Serbia it would be either Zeljko or something like that. But

16 Zeljo is more typical of Bosnia. As you are making this distinction in

17 the speech people used, so you could tell they were from Serbia. But

18 Zeljo couldn't be from Serbia, could he?

19 A. I really don't know that. But I claim with full responsibility

20 that they used the word "Zeljo."

21 Q. I believe you, but I'm just asking whether you know that Zeljo

22 could not have been from Serbia.

23 A. I don't know that.

24 Q. What was the distance from which they opened fire?

25 A. Well, a maximum of one and a half metres to two. As soon as you

Page 22525

1 enter the room -- as soon as you entered the room, they would open fire.

2 Q. Very well. Tell me, please, as something is not quite clear to

3 me: You were given here a list, and on it there are 11 names; is that

4 right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. When we were looking at the tape shown to you by Mr. Groome only a

7 part of it was shown, but as the camera covered the scene they reached the

8 number 19. How can you identify that tape where there were at least 19,

9 because we saw the numbers - there could have been more - with the people

10 that you identified and who are on this list of 11?

11 A. I don't know at all what those numbers mean, but I did see below

12 the numbers the names of the people who were executed at the time and whom

13 I knew, and I recognised the one among them by his pullover, and he is

14 Mehmed Sehic.

15 Q. The one you recognised was from your group, wasn't he?

16 A. Yes, he was.

17 Q. As there were three soldiers there, someone called Zeljo and

18 another two that you claim were Arkan's men, do you believe that they did

19 this of their own free will or following somebody's orders?

20 A. Absolutely not. In my view, nothing could occur without Arkan's

21 knowledge.

22 Q. Even if he wasn't present?

23 A. Yes. They had to wait for him before doing anything at all.

24 Q. Will you now please look at -- it is tab 6.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I assume you won't show the picture,

Page 22526

1 Mr. May, on the screen, because the witness can be seen on it.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. The picture is very clear, so please look at it. Will you please

4 find it. It is in tab 6. It's the first photograph following the medical

5 reports. It's marked 00474104.

6 You have explained -- I hope you can see the picture.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. That's you, isn't it?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You can see the wound near the collarbone.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And nowhere can you see the wound on the chin.

13 A. Yes, you can see it on this first photograph, if you look a little

14 more closely.

15 Q. If I do look more closely, then even if this hardly visible dot on

16 the chin could be that wound, wouldn't -- could it differ from the one on

17 the clavicle? Because this one is very visible. It clearly -- it can

18 clearly be seen that it was made very briefly prior to the taking of the

19 photograph. So wouldn't the other one -- shouldn't the other one look

20 similar to that one?

21 A. I don't remember the exact date when the photographs were taken;

22 however, this wound near the collarbone that you see, I had problems with

23 it for a whole year, because it wouldn't heal. And that --

24 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

25 MR. GROOME: If I may assist. The date that the photograph was

Page 22527

1 taken has actually been printed on the photograph itself.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, July -- it seems to be July 1996.

3 But the witness isn't a doctor. He can't help us to medical

4 matters. He can only say what he himself suffered.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand that.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. But where is the exit wound, if this is the wound on the chin that

8 you're speaking about?

9 A. At the time, I had the luck in this tragedy for the bullet just to

10 scathe me. There was a lot of bleeding, but you can't see it too well on

11 this photograph.

12 Q. Very well, then. I won't bother you with any more questions about

13 that, because clearly there's a difference between the appearance of the

14 wound on the chin and the other one on the collarbone.

15 But tell me, please: As we see on these -- we don't see on these

16 photographs, but you also were hit in the hip?

17 A. No, in my leg, the upper leg.

18 Q. And then you started running, didn't you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Tell me, when did you manage to escape? When they had finished

21 everything and the truck left or before that?

22 A. When I heard that the truck was moving away from the spot, I got

23 up and moved away from that spot.

24 Q. And before that, you heard one soldier order another to shoot

25 everyone in the head, and he's the one who hit you in the chin; isn't that

Page 22528

1 right?

2 A. Yes, it is.

3 Q. So you had the good luck that he missed you; is that right?

4 A. I can't say that he missed me, but -- he did hit me, after all.

5 Q. Tell me, please: Judging by what it says here, that when they

6 established that all of you had been killed, they left the spot and you

7 then heard somebody's moans; is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And I see here that you say that the man who was moaning, as you

10 yourself say, had a big hole on his forehead. That's what you said.

11 A. Yes, that's right. He wasn't moaning. He was just gurgling.

12 That's all you could hear.

13 Q. Well, how do you explain that a man who has a big hole and a

14 direct hit in the forehead is not dead on the spot?

15 JUDGE MAY: Well, that's not for the witness to guess that. As I

16 say, he's not a doctor. All he can say is what he saw and heard himself.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. As far as I can see from your statement, after you were wounded

19 you walked all day, you spent the night under a plum tree in an orchard,

20 and then you arrived in Poljak on the 21st of September, 1995.

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. During those two days, did you ever pass out?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did you use anything to bandage your wound?

25 A. No.

Page 22529

1 Q. You spent a night underneath a plum tree in an orchard?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you manage to get some sleep?

4 A. I don't think I got any sleep.

5 Q. During the examination-in-chief, Mr. Groome examined you along the

6 lines of your statement up to a certain point, up to this point. And now

7 I'm going to read out to you what you said on page 7 of your statement in

8 this second paragraph, if we do not count the one that started on the

9 previous page.

10 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness have a copy of his statement.

11 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. This is what it says. This is the second paragraph, if we do not

14 count the paragraph that started on the previous page. So this is page 7

15 of your statement. This is what it says: "I arrived in Poljak around

16 noon the following day, on the 21st of September, 1995. As I expected,

17 the Serb army was there." So you were hurrying to Poljak to come to a

18 unit where the Army of Republika Srpska was.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And then you proceed, you say, "Near one of the houses I saw a

21 group of soldiers and approached them. As they observed me, there was

22 great consternation among them. I must have looked appalling, all covered

23 in blood, since there was nothing I could have done for my wounds."

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. "I passed them and climbed on the barn where there was still my

Page 22530

1 bag with my clothes."

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And then you move on to say: "Djoko Mladjenovic showed up soon.

4 He was a Serb but a good colleague of mine, and I was sure he would not

5 give me away, so I told him all what happened."

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. "I described the village and its location and he said that it was

8 Trnova. He gave me some food and then went to see the commanding officer,

9 a certain Malic" -- I do not know his name or rank -- "in order to try to

10 get me to a hospital."

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So when you say that he would not give you away, could you please

13 explain that to me. You came there and everybody saw you come. Everybody

14 saw you covered with blood, and you went to get your bag. It was a unit

15 of the Army of Republika Srpska. So nobody could assume that you came

16 secretly. Everybody saw you, right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. This friend of yours went to the commander -- to his commanding

19 officer and asked for you to be taken to hospital.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And then you say further on: "Malic said to send me to Sanski

22 Most or Prijedor but I refused because I knew I would never stay alive

23 there. Instead, I asked to be sent to Banja Luka."

24 A. Precisely.

25 Q. "Because I knew that a neighbour of mine whose name I do not want

Page 22531

1 to state for the sake of her safety was a nurse in the local hospital and

2 I was sure she would help me.

3 "Finally, the commanding officer agreed to that, even though there

4 was a problem with fuel." I assume that Banja Luka is further away than

5 Prijedor and Sanski Most, if you were to be taken to a hospital there.

6 Right?

7 "They transported me to the headquarters which was located about

8 15 kilometres from Poljak towards Bronzani Majdan in the direction of

9 Banja Luka because the ambulance was there." Is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So these Serb soldiers from your unit and their commander, whose

12 last name is Malic, took all necessary measures for you to receive medical

13 treatment and to be sent to a clinic first and then on to hospital.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. That practically means that the Serbs with whom you worked, among

16 whom you moved about freely, after everything that had happened to you

17 practically saved your life. Is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And then you say, "In the morning of the 22nd of September," on

20 the other side, I -- "they put me on a bus to Banja Luka and I finally

21 reached the hospital that same day. I spent ten days in the hospital and

22 was then released." Banja Luka was in Serb hands all the time. It was

23 never taken by the Muslim forces. Is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You spent ten days in hospital. You were taken care of, as much

Page 22532

1 as possible during those ten days. And after that, you were released, and

2 then later on you went to the territory that was controlled by the Muslim

3 forces. Is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you, Mr. 1047. I have no further questions -- oh, I beg

6 your pardon. Just one more question. One more question. I omitted to

7 mention that. I didn't find this clear.

8 You said that they had said to you that they would spare your

9 lives if you gave them 5.000 Deutschmark each. That seems illogical to

10 me. If they wanted to kill you and if they wanted to take away your

11 money, they could have taken your money irrespective of whether they

12 killed you or not. Is there some kind of confusion there, or is it

13 something that I'm missing?

14 A. If you listen to me carefully, this soldier said that we should

15 board the truck and go to our homes, that he would drive us to our homes.

16 He probably thought that we had money at home and that we should give it

17 to him.

18 Q. All right. 1047, thank you very much.

19 A. Thank you.

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would have a few

22 questions. If the witness could please give a few additional explanations

23 to you.

24 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

25 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Witness, on page 1 of your statement, that

Page 22533

1 is, the sixth paragraph, the end of that paragraph actually, in the

2 Serbian version - and it's the same in the English version too - you said

3 here: "Our job consisted of digging trenches, pulling out the wounded

4 from the battlefield, and other dangerous tasks." Is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. While you were engaged in these dangerous tasks, were any of you

7 wounded perhaps or were any of you even killed?

8 A. In my group, Jasmin Brkic was seriously wounded in the legs, and

9 also Hilmije Bukvic [phoen] was also wounded in the legs. While I was in

10 that group, I was just grazed by a bullet on the nose during all the

11 shooting that went on.

12 Q. How many soldiers were killed on the Serb side while you were in

13 the trenches? How many Serbs were killed?

14 A. I really wouldn't know what the number was.

15 Q. But if you were carrying the bodies of the dead, then you should

16 know at least approximately.

17 A. I personally did not have occasion to carry any bodies.

18 Q. All right. Can you tell me, or can you tell the Trial Chamber,

19 when you went to do this work, you and the other men who were engaged in

20 these tasks, did you have any documents on you?

21 A. Yes, for the most part we did.

22 Q. Then, Mr. Witness, I would like to take you to page number 7. A

23 few minutes ago you were answering questions in relation to that. But

24 here on page 8 -- or rather, it's page 7 in the Serbian version, and -- I

25 mean, the B/C/S version is page 7, and in the English version it's page 8,

Page 22534

1 the last paragraph -- or rather, the one-but-last paragraph. You said

2 that "After having walked for a long time in such a state," you said, "I

3 somehow managed to climb a small hill not far from the house where the

4 killing took place." So after having walked for a long time, you managed

5 to get back to that house.

6 A. No, not after having walked for a long time. The same morning,

7 when it dawned, I climbed on this small hill and I saw Sanski Most from

8 there.

9 Q. Tell me, Poljak was the place where you were taken from and where

10 you experienced what you experienced.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you returned to this same place where you experienced

13 everything you experienced?

14 A. Yes, after my suffering I returned to Poljak.

15 Q. Then in the last paragraph it says when you were asked how come

16 you were wounded, you said, "I lied and told them that Arkan sent us to

17 the front line, that I was wound there had and that I did not know what

18 happened to the others."

19 A. Precisely, that's what I said. To the other soldiers, while I

20 told Djoko Mladjenovic the actual truth.

21 Q. But that's not what you said here in your statement you did not

22 say that there was anyone you had told the actual truth, not even this

23 friend of yours.

24 A. I stand by what I said now, that I told Djoko Mladjenovic what had

25 happened to me.

Page 22535

1 Q. All right. Now, I don't know whether you have the document from

2 tab number 7 in front of you. It's the medical document which shows the

3 wounds that you had sustained. This document shows that you were in Banja

4 Luka from the 22nd of September until the 2nd of October, 1995, so it's

5 ten days. Is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. This document shows at the very end that it describes only wounds

8 in your ribs and collarbone.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. No other wounds are described. So this was the day following the

11 day everything happened to you that you described here.

12 A. The exit/entry wound was not shown here because the bone was not

13 hurt. Also, the wound on the chin. But then I'm not a doctor; I don't

14 know.

15 Q. As far as I managed to understand, in three different situations

16 you got these three wounds in completely different ways.

17 A. I don't understand what you're saying.

18 Q. You were shot at three times; is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, please take a look at tab 9. It's this document in which it

21 says in the first sentence --

22 JUDGE MAY: -- Tab 9.

23 MR. GROOME: I believe Mr. Tapuskovic is referring to tab 8.

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I beg your pardon. That's

25 correct. I made a mistake. It's tab 8.

Page 22536

1 Q. It says here in the document that says the 18th of October, 1995 -

2 so this is almost a month after everything that had happened to you

3 happened - and it says in the first sentence that "Within Betonirka and in

4 the halls there were 11 bodies that were brought by the soldiers of the

5 ARB from Trnova." And how many corpses were in the photograph that you

6 looked at a while ago? I mean, on the footage we saw.

7 A. On this footage, I did not see clearly how many bodies there were.

8 Q. Can you give some kind of an explanation? Did you learn anything

9 about this? How come these bodies were found so much later in relation to

10 the day when this happened, although they had not been buried?

11 A. I don't know exactly when the bodies were found, because by then I

12 was there are in Tuzla and Zenica in various hospitals and so on.

13 Q. I think that you did not know some of the people who were killed,

14 you did not recognise some of the bodies, and there were four that you did

15 know.

16 A. Please, I said quite clearly that I recognised the sweater of

17 Sehic Mehmed.

18 Q. And three other friends of yours. I understand that. But how did

19 you recognise the remaining persons, the remaining eight persons -- or

20 rather, seven persons?

21 A. I did not even know these people during the execution, before or

22 after.

23 Q. Can you just explain to the Court --

24 A. I never said that I knew these people. Quite simply --

25 Q. Are you sure these people lost their lives in the same place where

Page 22537

1 you were?

2 A. I heard about that when I returned later from Tuzla and Fojnica,

3 where I was being treated medically.

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

5 Thank you, witness.

6 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I have no questions. But just to clear

7 up something that seems to have become unclear, is that if one reads tab 8

8 of that exhibit, it's clear that identifying documents were found on the

9 bodies of these people, and that is what the identification is based on.

10 The witness has never testified that he recognised the people but simply

11 that the names that were then tagged to the bodies for those names were

12 for the people whose names he knew that were killed inside the garage.

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

14 Witness B-1047, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for

15 coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are now free to go.

16 If you'd just wait for the blinds to be lowered.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

18 [The witness withdrew]

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.

20 MR. NICE: Your Honour, we are not, I regret, in a position to

21 start the next witness. And I apologise for the failure to use the last

22 15 minutes of today's session.

23 As the Chamber may have been notified, there was at one stage a

24 plan to call Mr. Riedlmayer next, followed by Mr. Lilic. But in order to

25 ensure that Mr. Lilic is completed this week, the prudent course is to

Page 22538

1 take Mr. Lilic first and to accommodate Mr. Riedlmayer later in the week

2 or later.

3 I don't know what time, if any, the Chamber will have to prepare

4 for the evidence of tomorrow's witness, but for the fact that we'd

5 finished 15 minutes earlier I was going to provide you with a clip of

6 documents which I'd hoped would be of assistance. And perhaps I can

7 explain what they will be, and they will be coming your way as soon as,

8 maybe, after this adjournment.

9 First of all, I thought the Court would be assisted by being

10 reminded, if it hasn't done so already, of its decision of the 31st of

11 July. And I'll make that the first document. It's paragraph 20, that

12 deals with the steps that had to be taken for this witness to give

13 evidence, and particularly the Chamber will recall that an outline had to

14 be served on the government of Serbian Montenegro, as it now is, and an

15 outline of the topics the witness would be covering.

16 The next document, which has one or two letters, faxes and so on

17 associated with it, so that we can be satisfied it's the relevant

18 document, is the outline of topics provided by the Office of the

19 Prosecutor to the government authorities together with an attachment which

20 listed a number of documents that it was our intention to deal with

21 through the witness. As the Chamber knows from other hearings, those

22 documents haven't all been provided and it won't be possible to deal with

23 all of them.

24 There is then the waiver that was required from Serbian

25 Montenegro. It comes in two parts. The first part is the waiver itself,

Page 22539

1 dated the 27th of March, 2003. The second part, sent the following day,

2 being a list of topics. It looks very similar to the outline that we sent

3 the government. In fact, you'll discover that it is probably the

4 translated version of our outline retranslated back into English so that

5 it's similar but not identical. But it's important that the Chamber

6 should have those documents because by reason of the limited waiver given

7 to the witness, we've all got to be alert to the reality that he is not

8 allowed to stray outside the topics identified by the government as

9 covered by the waiver granted to him.

10 With that in mind, it seemed to me that it would be most helpful

11 for the Chamber and for all those who are going to have to track his

12 evidence with the waiver in mind, it seemed to me most helpful that the

13 summary you should have should be broken down by the same -- in the same

14 way as the list of topics submitted is broken down, because it's that list

15 of topics for which a waiver has been granted. That summary is in the

16 process of being prepared, but I'm afraid it won't be ready until tomorrow

17 morning. But it seemed to me if we have a summary that says "topics

18 covered by the waiver," and then the relevant part of his proposed or

19 expected testimony immediately underneath that, then if there's any

20 challenge by the lawyers representing either the government or indeed the

21 lawyer representing the witness to his ability to give that testimony, the

22 Chamber will immediately see what was covered by the waiver.

23 It occurred to me that in this way --

24 JUDGE MAY: Just one moment.

25 MR. NICE: Yes.

Page 22540

1 [Trial Chamber confers]


3 MR. NICE: I'll come back to something in just a second.

4 There being no summary of testimony available for Your Honours

5 this afternoon - and I not knowing whether there'll be any time for Your

6 Honours to read material overnight, in any event - it had occurred to me

7 that in this witness's case, the draft statement that was prepared last

8 year might be a document that you would find as useful as a summary to

9 pre-read. It's a document upon which the reformulated summary is based,

10 with some amplifications. And indeed, I think nearly all of this

11 particular witness statement or draft witness statement is included one

12 way or another in the new summary, but under, of course, the particular

13 headings, which will make it easier to police whether the material is

14 within or -- or outside the waiver. And so I propose - unless the Chamber

15 indicates that it wouldn't find this helpful - to serve as part of this

16 small bundle the 21-page statement of the witness. I have to say that in

17 the same way as one or two other statements you've seen have been easy to

18 read because well prepared, I think this falls within that category. It's

19 a coherent document and therefore quite a swift and easy read. So I

20 propose to make all that material available to you as soon as I can this

21 afternoon and hope that will be helpful.

22 Two other points --

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Just help us about the waiver and how that's

24 going to work. The waiver permits the witness to give evidence. And I

25 haven't refreshed my memory from the -- the order we made or indeed of

Page 22541

1 anything else. I'm just recollecting. The waiver permits the witness to

2 give evidence about topics which may be confidential - is this point - but

3 are limited?

4 MR. NICE: Yes, the historical position is this, so far as this

5 particular witness is concerned: The government entered into the arena

6 expressing its concerns about the testimony that he might give, given his

7 position as a former head of state. The broad history of the satellite

8 litigation can be seen from the written order.

9 But at paragraph 20 of your order, Your Honours said this: "But

10 prior to his testimony, the Prosecution should provide --" I'm sorry, not

11 to go too fast -- "should provide the government with an outline of the

12 matters which it is proposed that he will cover during his testimony. The

13 government should then inform the Prosecution if the outline contains any

14 information which it considers would be prejudicial to its national

15 security interests." It's my recollection no such notification has been

16 given.

17 "The Prosecution should tailor the scope of proposed

18 examination-in-chief to take into account the concerns of the government

19 in this regard, and if there is disagreement between the Prosecution and

20 the government the matter should be referred to the Trial Chamber, in

21 which case having heard the respective views it will decide whether to

22 admit the evidence. However, it should be borne in mind that in so

23 deciding the Trial Chamber will take into account the paramount importance

24 of protecting national security interests so that the hearing that led to

25 this written ruling was premised on the possibility of national security

Page 22542

1 interests being a bar to evidence being given. The waiver --

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: But that has not been raised by the government,

3 you say?

4 MR. NICE: It has not been.

5 However, what they have done with this witness and indeed now

6 require to be done with other witnesses is, consider the proposed

7 testimony of the witness and granted or not, as the case may be, but in

8 this case granted, a waiver. And the Chamber may recall that the witness

9 was very concerned from time to time about the sufficiency of the waiver

10 that he was being given or being offered.

11 The waiver - and I have to tell Your Honours that the -- when you

12 see the English version of it, the translation is not entirely happy. But

13 I can explain it tomorrow -- the translation of the second paragraph is

14 not entirely happy. But the first paragraph, which is the material one

15 says, "That in these proceedings the witness is released from the duty of

16 keeping state and military secrets according to the list of proposed

17 topics and identified -- no identified and associated documents. So that

18 what has happened is the Chamber said we must provide a list of topics.

19 The Chamber said that it would be sensitive to any declared national

20 security interests. The witness was aware of the vulnerability of a

21 witness, and in particular of him, were he to give evidence that breached

22 the law on keeping state secrets. The government has provided a waiver

23 saying that the witness is free of risk in respect of the state secret

24 law, providing he gives evidence in accordance with and within the scope

25 of the listed topics we provided.

Page 22543

1 Now, in fact, it's not -- Your Honour is correct, I think, to

2 discern that there's not an exact match there between what the Chamber was

3 concerned about and what the government has done.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: And it gives rise to this, in my view, Mr. Nice:

5 If there isn't a question of national security which would properly keep

6 the evidence out, what is it that will keep the evidence out? Is it the

7 government's mere say so that this is not evidence to be given in this

8 chamber? In other words, the question is this: Does the waiver cover any

9 evidence which ordinarily would not be admissible in -- in this court?

10 MR. NICE: The answer is, I think, as follows: If the witness is

11 asked to give evidence that would not expose him to criminal sanction,

12 because it's a state secret, he'll give the evidence. If he's asked to

13 give evidence that would but for the waiver be a state secret, then if

14 it's covered by the waiver, no problem, he'll give the evidence. If it --

15 if it would constitute a breach of state secrecy laws but it's not

16 included in the waiver, then he would be at risk. And therefore, it is

17 probably the witness who would be seeking not to answer a question simply

18 because he has not been released of the duty of keeping state secrets in

19 respect of that particular topic.

20 JUDGE MAY: Or counsel for the government, presumably, if present?

21 MR. NICE: Yes, I think they are going to be present.

22 But what has not happened is that there has been -- sorry. The

23 government has not raised specific national security issues by forecast

24 without being certain that their answer would be that their state

25 security -- national security interests have been protected because

Page 22544

1 they've seen the list of topics. They've decided that there is no problem

2 with that list of topics and therefore they don't require to --

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: In other words, the state secrets are not at the

4 level that would prompt them to raise national security interests.

5 MR. NICE: On the topics, yes.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: So what is it that is to keep the evidence out?

7 MR. NICE: If the witness -- the only thing that would keep

8 evidence out is if the witness were asked a question which he and, if it

9 becomes a matter of contention, his lawyer and/or state lawyer would argue

10 or accept is within the state secret limitation and there is no waiver of

11 liability, because the witness would then be at risk.

12 I mean, none of this is of the witness's desire or creation.

13 Absolutely the reverse. It has all come about because there is the desire

14 to impose some restriction on the evidence that people like this witness

15 give.

16 The only other observation I'd make is this: The Chamber knows

17 that the documents we sought for this witness have for the most part

18 simply not been provided by the government, even if they were provided

19 this week or next week, there would be very substantial problems of

20 translation and there's no immediate forecast of if or when they will be

21 provided. In those circumstances, we propose to proceed without the

22 documents and to get the witness to give what evidence he can by way of

23 generalities and sometimes particularities of events that would be covered

24 by those documents. We hope in due course that the documents will be

25 available and would then be able to give in detail an account of a kind

Page 22545

1 the witness would have been able to give himself had the documents been

2 available earlier.

3 The Chamber will also know that there is reference in one of your

4 rulings to a very short summary that was prepared of some of those

5 documents. It was part of a filing the week before last. It had occurred

6 to me as possible at one stage to rely on that summary and to put that

7 summary in as evidence, the best form of evidence that was available to us

8 given the non-provision of the other documents. But for various reasons,

9 I shan't be doing that and therefore I don't wish that -- those summaries

10 to be distributed to the parties.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE MAY: Very well. If that's the matter you wanted to raise,

13 Mr. Nice.

14 MR. NICE: That's all.

15 JUDGE MAY: We'll adjourn now.

16 Tomorrow morning, 9.00.

17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

18 at 1.47 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

19 the 17th day of June, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.