Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 24149

1 Friday, 11 July 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

5 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, before we begin, there's a matter I want to

6 deal with in private session.

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Page 24150

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20 [Open session]

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

23 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24 JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat now.


Page 24151

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 JUDGE MAY: Let me remind everybody, with this microphone there

3 need to be pauses between question and answer.

4 MR. NICE: Your Honour, there is associated with this witness who

5 will be known throughout as B-1120 or 1120, I suppose, for convenience,

6 a -- an exhibit of seven tabs -- six tabs, beg your pardon, and the last

7 tab has at the top of it the name of the witness. If that can simply be

8 shown to him. It's obviously an exhibit that must remain under seal

9 Examined by Mr. Nice:

10 Q. But just, please, Witness B-1120, confirm that that name at the

11 top of the list is yours by saying yes if that is the case.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MR. NICE: May the exhibit be given a number.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P492.

16 MR. NICE: The witness's evidence is for the most part admitted

17 under the provisions of 92 bis by way of testimony on the former occasion.

18 I summarise the effect of his evidence which relates, as the Chamber

19 knows, to Foca. I shall read only some of the paragraphs in the summary

20 provided or read from only some of the paragraphs in the summary provided

21 to the Chamber.

22 Paragraph 2. SDS leaders such as Karadzic, Plavsic and others

23 made statements at the material time to the effect that Serbs and Muslims

24 could no longer live together and spread messages of hate and false

25 propaganda over the radio, examples being how at a rally in 1990, Vojislav

Page 24152

1 Maksimovic stated that Muslim blood would flow again down the Drina and

2 Cehotina rivers as it had done down the Drina in the Second World War.

3 In April 1992, another example. Miro Stanic said that it was time

4 to clear up once and for all relations with Muslims it being impossible to

5 live with them. Radovan Karadzic saying at a parliamentary session

6 shortly before the war that there is a threat that Muslims in Bosnia could

7 disappear from the country.

8 The war, as far as Foca is concerned started, started on 7th of

9 April of 1992 when the JNA assisted by Territorial Defence forces and

10 paramilitaries took over the municipality occupying it, setting fire to

11 Muslim houses and destroying 30 or so mosques.

12 The witness was arrested, taken first to a military or former

13 military warehouse and then transferred to the local KP Dom or prison

14 where a couple of days after his arrival a soldier from Serbia wrote

15 names, surnames, and professions of detainees, the witness staying at that

16 location until July of 1993.

17 In April or May of 1992, some 25 to 30 Muslims tried to escape

18 from the village of Jelec to avoid being arrested, sought protection from

19 the JNA at the Kalinovik barracks and instead of being protected were

20 taken by the JNA from there to be detained at the KP Dom.

21 Paragraph 13 is new evidence that I will just deal with very

22 briefly if I may through the witness.

23 Q. Witness B-1120, did you from information provided to you by a man

24 called Celik, learn of Muslims having escaped and fled to Montenegro,

25 being followed there by members of the SDS leadership including Vojislav

Page 24153

1 Maksimovic and Miro Stanic?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did Celik inform you that the SDS leadership demanded their

4 return, criticising Momir Bulatovic for sheltering them and they were

5 eventually returned or at least 21 of them were returned?

6 A. Yes. The rest were returned in cars, and this was a larger group

7 consisting of 21 men that we're talking about.

8 MR. NICE: I return to the summary. Paragraph 15 or 14 and 15.

9 The witness was interrogated but not particularly mistreated. Others

10 were. Go on to paragraph 18. Nutrition at the KP Dom was very poor.

11 Serb prisoners were better treated than was this witness and others like

12 him. Detainees suffered various things including lice as a result of not

13 being able to have any form of hygiene really and he lost a very

14 considerable amount of weight, 20 kilogrammes as paragraph 24 reveals,

15 having to go through the cold of the winter where there was snow on the

16 ground in large quantities without anyway of keeping warm.

17 Paragraph 21. Several prisoners died of the conditions actually

18 in the course of their detention. Others died after their release.

19 Paragraph 25. There was a systematic ill-treatment of non-Serbs

20 at the KP Dom. The witness himself was taken to isolation cells on two

21 occasions for arbitrary reasons and then beaten by a Serb guard.

22 Paragraph 2, some 35 detainees were taken between the 13th and the

23 30th of June from the place where they were kept at the KP Dom. They

24 didn't return. The witness and others heard sounds at the relevant times

25 of beatings and of shootings and indeed of people or things being thrown

Page 24154

1 into the river nearby. Other prisoners were taken out for sessions of

2 interrogations and beatings. Some of them simply never returning.

3 The beatings, of course, paragraph 31, created an atmosphere of

4 terrible fear.

5 In May 1992, the doctor in charge at the KP Dom made an

6 observation about the danger of being there by reference to the fact that

7 for every Serb killed, three to five Muslims would disappear. The

8 witness's evidence is to the effect that of the 600 or so detainees that

9 passed through KP Dom, about 400 disappeared, about 240 survived or are

10 known to have survived.

11 In September 1992, a large number of prisoners were taken out

12 under the pretext that they were going to pick plums in Ustikolina. They

13 were never seen again, the 45 of them.

14 Paragraph 36 is new.

15 Q. Witness B-1120, were you aware of a mass grave that was uncovered

16 as late as the end of the trial at which you earlier gave evidence? Just

17 yes or no to that, please.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. That will do. Did you notice the heads of the bodies that were

20 found in the mass grave had typical marks indicating how they had died?

21 A. Yes. In the same places on the heads or skulls, there were

22 openings of roughly the same size, which was indicative of the method of

23 execution.

24 Q. Namely gunshot. And did you also observe ropes present suggestive

25 of or showing that detainees had been tied up?

Page 24155

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you. We'll --

3 A. Yes, there were ropes. A special kind of rope used for

4 parachutes, quite a strong one.

5 MR. NICE: I move on with the summary, paragraph 37. The warden

6 of KP Dom, Krnojelac, indicated that they were given orders by higher

7 command, he saying that nothing could be done. And paragraph 39 speaking

8 of a meeting in Bijeljina with all other commanders of detention camps

9 similar to the KP Dom where again discussion was held about the fact that

10 decisions were made at a level, so he asserted, higher than his.

11 We now come to paragraph 40.

12 Q. Witness B-1120 -- I think the summary may be wrong as to the dates

13 here; I'll ask the witness. In an early part of 1993, were there three

14 Cengic cousins, Nezir, Hilmo, and Fehim, elderly men who were detained at

15 the KP Dom and you discovered or learnt that they were called to the

16 warden's office? If so, what month or months of 1993 do you understand

17 this to have happened?

18 A. Yes. This was January or February 1993. Closer to January than

19 February. Around 16th of January, to be more precise.

20 Q. You heard about this. Well, we'll discover where you heard about

21 this in a moment, but as a result of going to the warden's office, did

22 they discover that - just yes or no to this - intervention had occurred

23 and that they were due to be released?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Not withstanding the fact that they were to be released by way it

Page 24156

1 may be of exchange, paragraph 41, did they have fear as a result of what

2 they'd been told Muslims generally in detention could expect?

3 A. Yes. They returned after a lengthy conversation. Prior to

4 leaving for Belgrade, they came back full of fear. They were shaking all

5 over as if they were suffering from Parkinson's disease. They said that

6 next to Krnojelac was Commander Marko Kovac who said that this was a

7 chance for the Serbs. We must settle accounts with the Muslims for good,

8 though he regretted that he was under the pressure of a powerful figure so

9 he had to do this. I'm referring to the exchange of these three men.

10 Q. I'll come to that powerful figure in a minute, but just to

11 complete the story, paragraph 42. Were those three cousins, as you

12 understood it, picked up by a guard the following day, taken to Belgrade

13 for an exchange, and did you get confirmation of this story after the

14 event because you met the Cengic cousins, or at least one of them,

15 subsequently?

16 A. Yes. After I was exchanged and when I reached Sarajevo, this was

17 confirmed by a brother of one of them and another relative who got in

18 touch with them, and I was informed about the exchange.

19 Q. I return to the powerful figure who was obliged or who obliged,

20 apparently, the local authorities to exchange these three. I want you to

21 give the learned Judges your account of who the powerful figure was said

22 to be and how you knew this, and there will, I think, come a time when you

23 will seek from the Judges that the matter is dealt with in private

24 session. When you reach that point, will you let us know. It may be

25 immediately.

Page 24157

1 Are you in a position in public session to identify, from what you

2 were told, who the powerful influence was? Can you name that person in

3 public session or do you wish to go into private session?

4 A. Yes, I can say that it was Mr. Milosevic, and we can discuss the

5 details in another way if necessary. I would just like to add my thoughts

6 or my question why, when the gentleman was so powerful, he didn't bring

7 his influence to bear so that something should be done for other detainees

8 all over Bosnia-Herzegovina.

9 MR. NICE: We will go into private session with the Court's leave.

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes, private session.

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20 [Open session]

21 MR. NICE: Back to the summary, paragraph 33 -- 43. The witness

22 was transferred to the Kula camp on the 5th of July, 1993. There were

23 some 80 to 100 prisoners there, all Muslims, brought from various camps in

24 Bosnia, later to be joined by 67 Croats brought, detained but kept

25 separately there in conditions as bad as at KP Dom, prisoners disappearing

Page 24159

1 from Kula camp in different ways, some being taken to work at the front

2 lines where they were seriously wounded or killed, the witness staying

3 there for another year until his release. It doesn't seem to me necessary

4 to give precise dates given that he is anonymous.

5 And paragraph 44 is evidence to be given live, but again I shan't

6 give too much detail. The Chamber will find at tab 3 and tab 4

7 certificates covering his detention, first of the Bosnian authorities and

8 then of the ICRC if I've got it the right way round.

9 The Bosnian authority certificate gives as date of detention,

10 first detention, a date in April 1992. The ICRC gives a date of detention

11 in August of 1992.

12 Q. Witness 1120, the last topic. Can you explain, please, that

13 discrepancy? Don't give the precise dates in case they can be identifying

14 of you.

15 A. Yes. A characteristic trait of the Serb authorities was to

16 manoeuvre with the dates, if I can put it that way, regarding the

17 beginning of detention. I saw several such certificates when I left the

18 camp. I first saw my own, which is incorrect regarding the date of my

19 taking into custody. And I saw many other certificates where they

20 concealed many months of detention for many detainees.

21 When we intervened with the International Red Cross for the date

22 to be corrected, they were not in a position to make any corrections.

23 Q. What --

24 A. Actually, they told us, "You have the exact date with your

25 authorities, and you will be giving your statements to your authorities

Page 24160

1 and then that date will be taken as the correct date for the beginning of

2 your detention."

3 Q. The significance of the period between April and August 1992,

4 identified to the ICRC by the detaining authorities as a period when you

5 were not in detention, being what, in your judgement, Witness 1120?

6 A. They simply wanted to present things falsely. They do not realise

7 that in doing so, they unmasked themselves regarding the falsehoods that

8 they bandied about later on. Regarding my particular case, which is quite

9 striking, if the date of my captivity is mentioned, it is not logical,

10 because on the 13th of that same month, there was virtually not a single

11 Muslim left in town.

12 Q. That's all I ask. You will be asked further questions.

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Could you both remember, both

14 yourself and the witness, please, to leave a pause after speaking; and

15 could you, Witness B-1120, could you please keep an eye on the accused's

16 microphone and make sure it's switched off before you answer.

17 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Before I begin the

19 cross-examination, Mr. May, I should like to ask you that for this witness

20 and the following one I be given a little more time, because I have quite

21 a lot of questions and a lot of material. Not too much more, but just a

22 little more than you usually give for 92 bis witnesses, please.

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll consider that.

24 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

25 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. 1120, the investigators of Mr. Nice, you gave

Page 24161












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Page 24162

1 to them so far three statements: On the 19th and 20th of April, 1996; on

2 the 20th of June, 1997; and the 20th of October, 1998; is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And is it true that on the 15th of July, 1994, to authorised

5 personnel of the Ministry of the Interior of Bosnia and Herzegovina, that

6 is to say the centre for security for Sarajevo, you also gave a statement

7 about the events that you have testified to and spoke to the

8 investigators?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, bearing in mind the chronology of this in which you gave

11 statements, can you tell me this: Which of the statements represents the

12 result of your best recollections? Or to be more precise, tell me which

13 of those statements most completely reflects the events you're testifying

14 about.

15 A. I think that is the first statement, but there's no vital

16 difference or difference in substance between that and the rest of the

17 statements given to the representatives of the Tribunal. They were all --

18 the ones to the Tribunal focused on certain questions and issues, whereas

19 my first statement took the chronology of events from when I was detained

20 to when I was released, that period.

21 Q. All right. Fine. Now, is it true that as of May 1990, from the

22 very inception, you were a member of the SDA party?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Now, testifying in another trial before this same Tribunal, you

25 stated that you didn't have any important function within the SDA party.

Page 24163

1 Am I right in saying that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, in your statement, the one you gave to the investigators on

4 the 20th of April, 1996, on page 2, paragraph 2, is it true that you said

5 you were a member of the Main Board of the SDA of Foca?

6 A. Yes.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Please pause between question and answer.

8 JUDGE MAY: Would the registrar come up, please.

9 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. So membership in the Main Board of the SDA party of Foca, you

13 don't consider that to be an important function, don't you?

14 A. No. I didn't speak publicly, I didn't change my relationship

15 towards people as an individual.

16 Q. I'm asking whether you thought it was an important post.

17 JUDGE MAY: Now, look: You've both been told this. You've both

18 been warned. We will not get on and this cross-examination will not

19 continue unless the rules are followed. Now, it's difficult, I know,

20 because you both speak the same language, but can you please bear this in

21 mind and just look at his microphone. And, Mr. Milosevic, don't interrupt

22 the witness, please. Yes.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. I'll do my best,

24 Mr. May, not to create any problems for the interpreters.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 24164

1 Q. Mr. 1120, your membership in the SDA party and the post you

2 occupied means that as a member of that party and a member of the Main

3 Board of that party for Foca, and as an intellectual yourself, you

4 accepted the platform and programme orientation of that party; is that

5 right?

6 A. Yes, but may I now say something with respect to the platform and

7 programme of the party and my options and how I came to be a member of the

8 party? Let me explain this to the Trial Chamber.

9 I became a member of the said party at my own -- on the basis of

10 my own positions after having studied the party programme carefully. I

11 realised that the party programme was a good one in the sense that it

12 advocated good neighbourly relations with the Serbs and Croats and that it

13 wished to see equality prevail in all respects, that it also wanted to

14 ensure everybody's equal social, national, and religious rights, and that

15 drew me closer to it.

16 In the second half of the programme of that mentioned party, it

17 said, Mr. Milosevic, something that I was very happy to see and made me

18 decide. What it said was that the SDA was in favour of a united

19 Yugoslavia, a united currency, and united uniform foreign policy. One

20 army, one police, and all it sought was the distribution of state organs,

21 that they be deployed some of them in Ljubljana, Zagreb, Sarajevo,

22 Belgrade, Ljubljana, et cetera, not all state organs to be headquartered

23 in Belgrade. But that was the essential thing for me and which prevailed

24 upon me to become a member of that party, namely that the party in its

25 programme exclusively advocated the preservation of the former Yugoslavia.

Page 24165

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, following on from your

2 guidelines and cautions, I didn't want to interrupt the witness, but would

3 you please bear in mind that it's his job to give answers to my questions

4 and not to put forward any number of reasons for which he accepted the

5 party programme. It takes up a lot of time. That's one thing, and it's

6 superfluous on the other.

7 JUDGE MAY: Yes, but I think he was entitled to give that answer

8 and to explain his position since you were asking him about it.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. I asked him whether he

10 accepted the platform and orientation of the party.

11 Q. Now, does that mean that you were in favour of

12 Bosnia-Herzegovina's secession from the SFRY, that is to say, an

13 independent Bosnia and Herzegovina?

14 A. At that time, Mr. Milosevic, no. We're talking about 1990 when I

15 became a member, that is to say, four or five parties -- months after the

16 party had been established at the level of Bosnia-Herzegovina. So that

17 was still the time when we all had in mind a united Yugoslavia, and we

18 thought that it could and should be preserved as a single state, as one

19 country.

20 Q. All right. Now, as you said that among other things you were

21 attracted to the party because it advocated equality; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you know that 1.600.000 Serbs at the referendum held in 1991

24 voted to remain within the SFRY, that is to say, precisely those ideas

25 that you were advocating?

Page 24166

1 JUDGE MAY: I'm wondering if this political debate is taking us

2 anywhere. This witness is giving evidence about what happened in Foca,

3 and to extend the debate into a general discussion is simply irrelevant.

4 Now, let us move on to Foca?

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, we will of course return to

6 Foca, but precisely because the witness said that he was in favour of

7 equality and preserving Yugoslavia, I asked him whether he knew that

8 1.600.000 Serbs went to the referendum in 1991 and voted to remain in

9 Yugoslavia. And on the other hand, the Muslims and Croats, those

10 citizens, called for an independent Bosnia-Herzegovina.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We can hear evidence about that in due course.

12 He's told you what his position was.

13 Just a moment. Please don't -- please don't interrupt.

14 We will hear in due course, no doubt, other evidence about those

15 matters, but what you should concentrate on is this witness's evidence and

16 what happened in Foca.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree with Your Honour Judge May.

18 If we were to summarise and make a precis dating back from 1991, we'll

19 never get to the point and get to my answers, and I have answers for

20 Mr. Milosevic. First of all, let me say that it's not true that in

21 Bosnia --

22 JUDGE MAY: I'm sorry. Mr. Witness, you're here to answer

23 questions. Now, I know you have views and no doubt feel strongly about

24 these matters, but I must ask you just to answer the questions shortly as

25 you can, please.

Page 24167

1 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. May.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. In the statement you gave to the centre of security on the 15th of

5 July, 1994, and that's on page 1, paragraph 1, you said that the creation

6 of this duality was a reservation among the population of Foca, that they

7 became reserved. You speak about the way they drifted apart and this fact

8 that they were reserved.

9 Now, the vital question of staying on within the SFRY or the

10 creation of an independent Bosnia-Herzegovina and a referendum, actually,

11 the referendums that were held, was that the basis for this reserved

12 attitude and the rift and duality that you mention?

13 A. Mr. Milosevic, you know that you, with the leaders from all the

14 republics, held a number of consultations and meetings in an attempt to

15 preserve Yugoslavia. You did not agree to any compromise which was put on

16 the table, and you took a different course. The party system was

17 dissolved, a multi-party system came into being, and according to the

18 multi-party system, the Serbs saw that they could not enjoin the same

19 rights they had enjoyed in the communist system.

20 JUDGE MAY: No. I don't think we can deal with this in this way.

21 Mr. Witness, I must ask you to -- I know you're trying to answer

22 the questions, but we cannot go into a political debate here about events

23 all over Bosnia.

24 Now, Mr. Milosevic, unless you've got questions about this

25 witness's evidence, I'm going to bring the cross-examination to a close.

Page 24168

1 Having a general debate about what happened in Bosnia with one particular

2 witness from one municipality does not assist us and is not relevant.

3 Now, have you any questions about the municipality?

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Of course.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But let's move on and focus on Foca.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. 1120, is it true that the Party of Democratic Action in the

9 summer of 1991 held a rally in Foca at which one 100.000 people took part

10 approximately?

11 A. Yes. But no incidents broke out during the rally nor was anything

12 said --

13 Q. Well, I'm not asking you that. All I wanted to establish was that

14 the meeting was attended by 100.000 people, because yesterday we had a

15 witness here who claimed otherwise.

16 Now, is it true that the Serbian Democratic Party later on also

17 held a rally in Foca at the Suceska stadium with the attendance of

18 approximately 10.000 people?

19 A. Yes, it did hold a rally at that stadium that you mentioned but I

20 don't know that there were just that number of people present. I think

21 that there were far more people, but I never attended meetings of the SDS

22 myself.

23 Q. Well, yes. Then I take it that you don't really know although you

24 are an inhabitant of Foca.

25 Now, is it true that in the Foca region there were about 50.000

Page 24169

1 people living there roughly?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And 52 per cent roughly were Muslims and 48 per cent roughly

4 Serbs; is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, tell me, how do you explain the fact that at the rally of the

7 SDS -- of the SDA in Foca there were five times more Muslims than were

8 inhabitants of the area?

9 A. Well, people from other parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina came in to

10 attend.

11 Q. Doesn't this fact in itself -- don't you feel that this fact in

12 itself represents, in addition to the various options for an independent

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina, a clear threat made to the Serbs or, rather, the Serb

14 people who wished to remaining living in a federal state?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Because of my time restrictions, I'm not going to quote from the

17 speeches delivered at that rally, but there will be occasion for me to do

18 on -- in due course.

19 Mr. 1120, in your statement of the 15th of July, 1994, on page 1,

20 paragraph 2, you say that already after two or three sessions of the

21 municipal parliament, the Assembly members of the SDS refused to accept

22 the proposed agenda and, therefore, the work of the Assembly was

23 paralysed. Is that what you said?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, tell me, who proposed an agenda which the Serb Assembly

Page 24170

1 members refused to accept?

2 A. The club of deputies of the SDS and the SDA. However,

3 Mr. Milosevic, I should like to clarify a point here: The SDS only wanted

4 to gain time in order to be able to arm itself properly.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. We didn't hear the

6 beginning of that question.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It was in their favour to gain

8 time for the purpose that I have stated.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. So what has the agenda got to do with this? I have the feeling

11 that the microphone isn't being switched on straight away. I'll wait to

12 see the light come on.

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes. That is because you are not pausing, despite

14 numerous complaints. You're both not pausing. You'll get the microphone

15 cut off if you don't. Now, there's no point going on if you don't follow

16 the rules.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Mr. 1120, does that mean then that paralysis of the work of the

19 local Assembly was due not to Serb non-cooperativeness but due to the fact

20 that their positions were being ignored even though they represented half

21 the population?

22 A. No, no. Their positions were not ignored. What was important was

23 what I already said, and the important thing is that the Serbs, after the

24 multi-party system was introduced, could not reconcile themselves to

25 having as much power as is their due corresponding to the number of

Page 24171

1 inhabitants and the number of votes, which is a basic principle of

2 democracy, because in the previous system they enjoyed far greater rights.

3 Q. As far as I know - and I hope you will agree with me - the Serbian

4 Democratic Party was opposed to the previous system and had a clearly

5 anti-communist attitude.

6 A. I can't elaborate on that. It was certainly nonsense that it

7 behaved in that way while it must -- it was aware that under the previous

8 system the Serb people was dominant throughout at all levels, from the

9 local level to the top state leadership.

10 Q. Mr. 1120, wasn't a principle that was respected at all levels in

11 Bosnia and Herzegovina to bear in mind the share of Serbs, Croats, and

12 Muslims from the top to the bottom?

13 A. Yes. I said that was the rule and it was in the programme.

14 Q. But my question is: Was that rule complied with?

15 A. No. The rules of the SDS were not.

16 Q. I won't tie you with these facts now.

17 A. Tell me, please, is it beyond doubt that within the SDA an

18 aspiration was voiced for secession from the SFRY whereas the Serbs wanted

19 to continue living in the same state?

20 JUDGE MAY: What's the relevance of this? What is the relevance

21 of this as far as this witness is concerned? We're just wasting time and

22 you're taking up your time. You've asked for more time. We'll have

23 seriously to consider whether you should get it.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May. I'm asking this

25 because the witness, in his statement of the 15th of July, claims, on page

Page 24172

1 1, paragraph 3, that the SDS members of parliament wanted a state of chaos

2 and that this suited them. Surely chaos was needed by those who wanted to

3 secede and not by those who wanted to preserve the state.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Milosevic --

5 JUDGE MAY: Can I explain something to you, Mr. Milosevic? It has

6 been explained before. It doesn't matter what is in the statements. You

7 can use what is in the statements to contradict the witness, if you wish,

8 or indeed you can ask questions about it, but what is in the statements is

9 not evidence in this case. What's evidence is what the witness has given

10 in evidence here or in his transcript. So the fact that something in the

11 statement is there doesn't matter as far as this case is concerned. So

12 whatever he said there is irrelevant unless he repeats it here.

13 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, we didn't get the beginning.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] According to your Rule 92 bis, I

15 don't have any oral statements of his but only the written statements and

16 that's why I'm referring to them.

17 JUDGE MAY: You have the transcript. It's the transcript which is

18 in the evidence in this case of this particular witness.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Let us speed things up,

20 if possible.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Does that mean that you are claiming that in Bosnia-Herzegovina

23 and also in Foca the Serbs had intended to carry out an aggression against

24 their own republic and their own people?

25 A. For their benefit and with the assistance of the JNA. They wanted

Page 24173












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Page 24174

1 to conduct an aggression against their town, and they could never have

2 been able to do it without the assistance of Serbia and Montenegro.

3 Q. Thank you, Mr. 1120. In the statement you gave the centre -- to

4 the centre of the security services, you claim with emphasis that all

5 members of the SDS participated in procuring and distributing weapons to

6 the Serb population to Foca municipality?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Is it also true what you say in the next sentence, that the local

9 Serbs were distributed weapons from the JNA warehouse in Filipovici? This

10 is the warehouse close to Foca?

11 A. I don't have such information that those weapons came only from

12 that warehouse but from all the warehouses containing infantry weapons all

13 over Bosnia and Herzegovina.

14 Q. That is a general answer. I asked you specifically about what you

15 say here. The JNA warehouse from Filipovici. How do you know that? Were

16 you there? Did you see the Serbs being given weapons?

17 A. Didn't I say that I saw weapons distributed from that warehouse.

18 But, for instance, from the Lukavice warehouse near Sarajevo and other

19 military facilities especially around Sarajevo, it is known with certainty

20 that weapons were delivered to Serbs in trailer trucks.

21 Q. Why then would members of the SDS from Foca, as you claimed in the

22 statement I quoted from, took part in procuring weapons if, as you say,

23 they were distributed to them from JNA warehouses?

24 A. Well, that is what I meant.

25 Q. Is it true that the warehouse which is 12 kilometres from Foca had

Page 24175

1 only 12 JNA soldiers there and that the commander of this small unit was

2 Muharem Kurtovic, a Muslim Major?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you believe that the local Serbs could be given weapons by a

5 Muslim?

6 A. No. I think in that warehouse there were virtually no weapons

7 because it was a warehouse for other military equipment.

8 Q. That is precisely what I wanted to hear. So this was quite

9 incorrect that weapons were distributed to anyone from that warehouse, and

10 therefore, also to the SDS and the Serbs.

11 Mr. B-1120, are you familiar with the statement of Muhamed Cengic,

12 one of the leaders of the SDA for a newspaper called Liljan when he said

13 that the Muslims of Foca long before the outbreak of the conflict in Foca

14 had organised themselves militarily and that they even had armed night

15 patrols?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Is that fact true?

18 A. Yes. Do you know who Senad Sahinpasic, known as Sajo, is?

19 A. I met him quite late but I never had any closer contacts with him.

20 Q. According to my information, you did not agree with his extremist

21 ideas; is that right?

22 A. I couldn't call them extremist, but people often differ in

23 opinions, and that is their right.

24 Q. Do you know that he was an activist of the SDA with extremist

25 views towards Serbs?

Page 24176

1 A. No.

2 Q. Are you aware of his advocacy of a conflict with the Serbs and

3 their expulsions from Foca?

4 A. No.

5 Q. If that is so, do you know at least that together with other

6 extremists he distributed weapons to the local Muslims?

7 A. No. I do not know, sir, that the Muslim population was armed. If

8 they had been armed like the Serbs, then the fighting in Foca would

9 probably have lasted longer or maybe the war would have taken a different

10 course. In four months, 21.000 Muslims would not have been expelled.

11 Q. Mr. 1120, didn't you a moment ago confirm yourself that long

12 before the outbreak of the conflict in Foca the Muslims were militarily

13 organised and that they had night patrol?

14 A. No. You misunderstood me. You're inverting what I said. I said

15 that they didn't have patrols, that they didn't have weapons, and that

16 they were absolutely empty-handed.

17 Q. And all that Cengic stated about Foca is untrue?

18 A. It's up to you to draw your conclusion.

19 Q. Very well. Do you know anything about the organisation of

20 barricades in Donje Polje, which is very close to the centre of Foca

21 according to the witness we heard yesterday?

22 A. No. I think that I was already in detention.

23 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't hear your answer.

24 A. My answer? No. I think I was already detained then.

25 Q. You were in detention before the beginning of the conflict in

Page 24177

1 Foca?

2 A. Sir, you're aware of the date of my detention. I didn't move

3 anywhere except from my apartment to my workplace, and I didn't know what

4 exactly was going on in various parts of the town.

5 Q. But you yourself say that the conflicts in Foca started on the 6th

6 or the 7th of -- as you say, but you were not in detention then.

7 A. Let me clarify that. On the 8th of April, I left my apartment to

8 go and do some shopping in a store close by. In front of that shop, an

9 armed Serb was standing and several other Serbs, and he was explaining to

10 them that that night the JNA centre and the post office had been taken

11 control of, and these buildings were in the centre of town.

12 I looked up at the JNA building, and I saw an armed soldier

13 pointing his gun towards the street that was used by people and on which

14 the armed Serb was standing, the one I knew. And at the entrance to the

15 JNA cultural centre, I turned around and saw another three armed soldiers

16 of the former JNA.

17 Q. As you yourself now said, you heard from them that the JNA

18 cultural centre had been taken control of. How then can you claim that

19 the JNA had taken part in the conflicts in Foca?

20 A. Well, you see that I saw them.

21 Q. You saw people in uniform.

22 A. Mr. Milosevic, there were locals that I knew personally. But

23 these other men who came to assist the Serbs from the former JNA, I didn't

24 know them, but they were wearing the uniforms of the former JNA.

25 Q. Very well. Now, tell me, please, who did the Serbs fight against

Page 24178

1 in Foca?

2 A. They simply expelled the population, because actually there

3 couldn't have been any battles if one nation didn't have any weapons.

4 Q. So you're claiming that this conflict that lasted ten days was

5 one-sided and the Muslims did not fight the Serbs but the Serbs just came

6 and took over Foca.

7 A. Precisely so, with the assistance of the JNA and paramilitary

8 formations.

9 Q. There was no exchange of artillery fire between Serb and Muslim

10 forces? There was no exchange ever fire and that attack on Foca went on

11 for ten days?

12 A. Artillery shooting from the hills there was by Serb forces, and

13 infantry weapons were used in town so as to intimidate the Muslim

14 population and force them to flee, whereas the men were captured

15 immediately and taken to the KP Dom.

16 Q. Your fellow citizen Avdic explained yesterday that the Muslim side

17 fired -- I'm not going to mention the number of shells that didn't

18 explode, that didn't go off. He was telling us that. So were those

19 shells fired or not?

20 A. I don't know that.

21 Q. Very well. And do you know anything at all about the artillery

22 positions of the Muslims in a part of town known as Sukovac?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Is it true that Muslim positions existed also within the KP Dom in

25 Foca?

Page 24179

1 A. No.

2 Q. And is it true that there was fierce fighting on the edges of the

3 Foca municipality?

4 A. From what I learnt later, there was in the direction of Gorazde

5 and Trnovo, there were some conflicts on the edges of the municipality.

6 Q. Very well. In view of the duration of the conflict in Foca, can

7 we infer that the forces were quite balanced?

8 A. No, far from it, because the town fell in such a short time. All

9 that was needed was to cleanse the city, and that took that many days.

10 Q. Very well. Mr. 1120, tell me, is it true that the first houses

11 that were torched in Foca were Serb houses?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. Do you know that among the first to burn, if not the first, was

14 the house of Milorad Kunarac, a maths teacher in the elementary school in

15 Foca?

16 A. Yes, I learned that later because I -- you mean Krnojelac, the

17 mathematics teacher. You mentioned Kunarac. He himself told me.

18 Q. Is it also true that that house was in Donje Polje, where the

19 Muslim forces had their strongest positions?

20 A. No. It was more in the centre than in Donje Polje.

21 Q. And tell me, do you have any idea as to how many Serb houses were

22 torched during those conflicts in Foca?

23 A. I don't have any knowledge, but the gentleman that we mentioned

24 told me that his house had been burnt. First it was his coffee bar in

25 front of the house, and then the fire spread to his house too, which could

Page 24180

1 have been caused by Serb forces, because they were opening fire at random

2 all over town.

3 Allow me to clarify: There was an order to all Serbs and

4 Montenegrins to leave Foca in that critical period, and they had all moved

5 to Montenegro with their families temporarily.

6 Q. That's the first time I hear that.

7 A. This is very important, because that is why they moved so boldly

8 forward, using infantry weapons.

9 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, we don't hear that. We didn't hear

10 the beginning of the question. We didn't hear that, I'm sorry.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 JUDGE MAY: [redacted]. And let's go into private session for

18 one matter.

19 [Private session]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 24181













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Page 24183

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9 [redacted]

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22 [redacted]

23 [Open session]

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. I'll avoid mentioning dates, the date of your detention, because I

Page 24184

1 don't want it to be linked up with your -- with disclosing your identity

2 at all. However, you say in your statements that on that particular date,

3 the date you were arrested, you were arrested at your work post by the

4 local Serbs wearing the old uniforms of the JNA; is that right?

5 A. Read that to the end, the rest of my statement. It says, "A JNA

6 soldier came to the cellar and tied my hands and the hands of the other

7 people there." That's what it says. An unknown individual as far as I

8 was concerned.

9 Q. I'm asking you about what you said that you were arrested by the

10 local Serbs wearing old JNA uniforms. That's what I was asking you about.

11 And I'm asking you whether the fact that they were wearing old JNA

12 uniforms, does that mean that they were members of the JNA?

13 A. They introduced themselves as being the Serb territorials, and

14 they held us for five or six hours until these others came who

15 subsequently tied our hands.

16 Q. And they were members of the local Territorial Defence?

17 A. The first ten or 12 held us there. Later on, JNA soldiers turned

18 up as reinforcements to help them.

19 Q. Mr. 1120, you know full well that in Foca there were no JNA

20 barracks and that the sole military facility was precisely the warehouse

21 in Filipovici for which you yourself said that there were no weapons there

22 but were used to stock fuel and some quartermaster supplies.

23 A. That's a good question, Mr. Milosevic. Up until then in Foca

24 brigades and brigades could have arrived from the former JNA from all

25 directions. So that's the crux of it.

Page 24185












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Page 24186

1 Q. Do you claim that there were brigades and brigades coming in from

2 all directions of the JNA?

3 A. Up until that time they could have arrived, but they arrived in

4 large numbers, two or three battalions, to help out the Serbs in Foca.

5 Q. Did you see them yourself?

6 A. I have reliable information telling me that, and even the local

7 Serbs in the contacts I had with them later on confirmed that, that they

8 did come in to assist them. And the -- the soldiers from Serbia

9 themselves said that they had come to help their Serb brethren in Foca.

10 Q. When you say soldiers from Serbia, you mean paramilitary

11 formations that were mentioned by the previous witnesses from Foca, is

12 that it?

13 A. Yes. But you know the uniforms that the JNA wore, and we know

14 that the paramilitaries wore a uniform in their own particular style. I

15 don't want to explain what the insignia was, the Eagles, the -- Seselj's

16 men, Arkan's men, and so on and everything they had, but they were present

17 there, yes.

18 Q. Let's just be specific, not to waste time. You didn't see a

19 single JNA soldiers. You just heard of the presence of JNA soldiers.

20 A. Well, Mr. Milosevic, as I said that during the night I was taken

21 off to assist.

22 Q. And the one that took you off was a JNA soldier?

23 A. Yes, there were two of them in fact.

24 Q. All right. Very well.

25 A. May I just also explain my direct contacts with one of the JNA

Page 24187

1 soldiers. On the third day or, rather, the third night upon arrival in

2 the KP Dom, I was taken off to a solitary confinement cell by former JNA

3 soldiers, soldiers of the former JNA?

4 Q. Do you mean that there were JNA soldiers in the KP Dom?

5 A. Yes. They had come to help out, and they stayed there for quite

6 some time.

7 Q. All right, fine. Now we can move on. We've arrived at the KP

8 Dom. You are in detention there and prior to that, several days before

9 that in the empty hangars of the Territorial Defence. That's where you

10 were detained; is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And is it true that all those guards of the KP Dom, without

13 exception, were local Serbs? Is that right?

14 A. For the first few days, there were both. Later on this was taken

15 over. The command was taken over and direct contact with the detainees

16 was assumed by the local guards, the ones that were there previously. And

17 they would just bring in from time to time and throw detained civilians

18 into the rooms. This was done by the JNA soldiers and the paramilitaries

19 I mentioned.

20 Q. All right. Now, tell me this, please, Mr. B-1120, the conflicts

21 in Foca, were they in fact conflicts between the local inhabitants, Serbs

22 on the one side and Muslims on the other?

23 A. No. I don't think we can speak of a conflict. You can see that

24 it was ethnic cleansing actually.

25 Q. Ah, I see. Ethnic cleansing you said. I didn't hear you

Page 24188

1 properly, so I had to look at what you said on the transcript.

2 Tell me, please, do you happen to know how many armed members of

3 the Muslim formations withdrew from Foca after this fighting that went on

4 for about ten days?

5 A. No.

6 Q. You know nothing about that?

7 A. No, I don't.

8 Q. And do you know anything about their withdrawal towards Gorazde?

9 A. No.

10 Q. You don't know that either?

11 A. All I know is that after the town of Foca, the Serb forces

12 advanced towards Ustikolina, the other large town, and that Ustikolina

13 fell on the 26th. And they also went by the place mentioned, Filipovici.

14 There was a barracks there in Ustikolina itself, actually, and that's

15 where there were some soldiers. I don't know how many exactly.

16 Q. All right. Now, is it true and correct, Mr. 1120, that in your

17 statement given to the security centre of Sarajevo, on page 11, paragraph

18 5, that you said that from the work platoon, from the members of the work

19 platoon, you learnt that during the period from April 1992 to 1993, in the

20 fighting in the Foca area, about 1.100 Serbs were killed?

21 A. Yes. That's what somebody from the work platoon said. But we can

22 put a question mark after that. But I did mention it in my statement

23 because that's what he said. And it was the individual whom I mentioned

24 said this. However, what -- that was a year after the war, actually, and

25 they probably meant the number of Serb losses on all the battlefronts

Page 24189

1 around Foca, that is to say where they were advancing towards Gorazde and

2 Trnovo, et cetera, because there were a lot of battles fought around

3 Trnovo at that time there too.

4 Q. Mr. 1120, you're talking about the Foca area. Now, Foca is a

5 municipality with 50.000 inhabitants, and we took note of that fact

6 earlier on.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So the fact that 1.100 Serbs were killed in those battles, can you

9 truly claim that the Muslims were unarmed on the other side and that most

10 probably these Serbs killed themselves in the area?

11 A. Well, to be quite frank, there were occasions where they killed

12 themselves too, and that a lot of them died in battle, that is certain

13 too. And the only route for the Muslims to get their resources was from

14 war booty from the Serbs.

15 Q. So we can take that to be an observation as well in your

16 testimony, that this 1.100 killed Serbs, for the most part, died because

17 they had killed themselves, is that it?

18 A. I've already given my answer.

19 Q. Does that mean if such a large number died or were killed on one

20 side, in this particular case the Serb side, does that mean that the

21 fighting in Foca and the surrounding parts went on for quite a long time?

22 Actually, they never ceased. They never stopped throughout that whole

23 year, from April one year to April the next year.

24 A. Along the edges towards Gorazde quite certainly the fighting did

25 go on for longer, and up towards Trnovo as well.

Page 24190

1 Q. All right. Do you know anything about the Muslim formations and

2 their fighting and participation in the area in which you yourself say

3 that 1.100 Serbs lost their lives?

4 A. Well, it would emerge, Mr. Milosevic, that the Muslims became

5 consolidated, consolidated their ranks in one way or another after a year

6 had gone by, one year later.

7 Q. Mr. B-1120, what does that mean, up until then, the conflict broke

8 out on the 6th or 7th of April, as you yourself say, in 1992.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And the fighting for Foca went on for about ten days.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And later on, this fighting expanded to the broader area around

13 Foca, and from your own information and facts, I take this figure of 1.100

14 Serbs killed - I'm using the figure you quoted - but many more were

15 killed. So do you know anything about those Muslim formations, the ones

16 which fought and were active in the region of Foca that you're testifying

17 about, or don't you know anything about that?

18 A. Well, I don't know how big the formations were or how they were

19 organised. I don't know anything about that, no.

20 Q. Do you know at least who was in command of those formations on the

21 territory of the Foca region?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Very well, Mr. 1120. I'm going to just ask you one or two more

24 questions, and here they are.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I understood that this was not in

Page 24191

1 private session, what the witness claimed earlier on with respect to the

2 name of a man whom he said was my business friend. Was that in private

3 session or not?

4 MR. NICE: The name was given in open session. The detailed

5 mechanism whereby that information was available was given in private

6 session.

7 JUDGE MAY: It would be sensible to go into private session, then,

8 to have this evidence.

9 [Private session]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

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Page 24192













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Page 24195

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5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 --- Recess taken at 10.37 a.m.

10 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

11 [Open session]

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We're in public session now, so I

14 would just like to cover a few more questions, because I saw from your

15 testimony that you spoke about some Muslims fleeing to Montenegro.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What really happened? You mentioned that some people went looking

18 for them, intervening, that they should be returned, et cetera.

19 A. I think that we shouldn't go back to that matter, that in the

20 summary everything was stated explicitly. All I can do is repeat.

21 JUDGE MAY: If all you can do is repeat, repeat. But if the

22 accused has any questions, he's entitled to ask them.

23 Now, what specifically is it that you want to ask, Mr. Milosevic?

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Do you know, Mr. 1120, that in Serbia alone there were 70.000

Page 24196

1 Muslim refugees from Bosnia and Herzegovina?

2 JUDGE MAY: No. Look, the witness can't deal with that.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. I noted down here that President Bulatovic personally intervened

5 for these 21 persons to be returned to the authorities in Bosnia and

6 Herzegovina; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And the group consisted of 21?

9 A. Yes, that group. But later on from the Montenegrin literal, more

10 Muslim refugees were brought from Eastern Bosnia.

11 Q. Now, tell me, please, do you know how many thousand Muslim

12 refugees there were in Montenegro from Bosnia and Herzegovina?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Do you know at least that there were several thousand of them?

15 A. But, Mr. Milosevic, it is quite clear here that the Serb

16 authorities or, rather, the political leadership of the SDS that I

17 mentioned, went there, caught those people, and ordered that other Muslims

18 be caught and captured and that Montenegrin politicians did this, rounding

19 up the group from Uzin to Herceg-Novi, which automatically is indicative

20 of the participation of Montenegro in the persecution of Muslims and their

21 detention in camps.

22 Q. Please, Mr. 1120. Do you know that in those days Yugoslavia was

23 still operational, it still existed?

24 A. Yes, but a Rump Yugoslavia. Actually, that is why we are

25 mentioning this, Montenegro and Serbia.

Page 24197












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Page 24198

1 Q. Is it logical if several thousand Muslims had fled to Montenegro,

2 and the authorities in this particular case, the authorities from Foca,

3 are asking from the authorities Niksic, Podgorica, or Uzin to arrest those

4 21 men who are suspected of criminal activity, that it is logical for them

5 to do that?

6 A. I'm sorry, criminal activity is not mentioned anywhere. You're

7 just bringing this up as a thesis on your part. They are civilians who

8 fled to save their lives.

9 Q. How, then, and on the basis of which criteria were those 21 of

10 them arrested when several thousand of them had fled to Montenegro and

11 nobody treated them badly over there?

12 A. I don't think that was so. They were just transiting through

13 Montenegro, going towards Sandzak and Macedonia. I -- it is not true that

14 that many of them were kept in Montenegro.

15 Q. Well, where is Sandzak? Is Sandzak in Serbia?

16 A. Yes, of course Sandzak is in Serbia, but it's not in Montenegro.

17 Q. Partially in Montenegro as well?

18 A. Well, yes, partially.

19 Q. Did anyone mistreat those people?

20 A. Yes, the police that arrested those 21 people. First they were

21 shut up in the police stations of the mentioned municipalities of

22 Montenegro.

23 Q. And what has President Bulatovic got to do with the cooperation

24 between the police of, for instance, Foca and Podgorica?

25 A. Of course he has as being the most responsible leader of the

Page 24199

1 Montenegrin people.

2 Q. So the president of the Republic of Montenegro went into this

3 matter as to whether a person looked for by the organs of the neighbouring

4 republic would be given to those authorities?

5 A. In wartime and in the situation we are talking about, that is

6 true.

7 Q. On the basis of what are you saying that President Bulatovic had

8 anything to do with that?

9 A. Because the man I mentioned told me that and I know him well as he

10 worked in the same institution as I did. I can also mention the names of

11 those 21 people and others. Let me add that out of those 21, two died

12 later on in the camp.

13 Q. That is certainly a tragedy that they died, but you haven't

14 answered my question. What has President Bulatovic got to do with it?

15 A. Well, you know yourself. I don't want to elaborate that any

16 further.

17 Q. Very well, Mr. 1120. If we're talking about camps and about the

18 allegations of the leadership of Republika Srpska that there were no

19 camps, do you remember that Radovan Karadzic wrote in public and through

20 the media to Paddy Ashdown, who is now in Bosnia-Herzegovina, denying

21 allegations that there were claims and inviting him to come and see for

22 himself?

23 A. No, I don't know that, and that is not true. Why was the

24 International Red Cross not allowed to come to the camps and to register

25 the detainees before?

Page 24200

1 Q. We had the information that the International Red Cross had access

2 to all prisoners -- prisons or sentence for prisoners of war.

3 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, the witness can't possibly know about

4 your state of knowledge or what reports you received. All he can do is

5 say what happened to him, which he has done, and give evidence about the

6 conditions in the facility that he was in.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I understand what you're saying,

8 Mr. May. I am just saying that these were public communications, and the

9 witness must have been familiar with them. But let us leave that.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. I just want to address another point. Mr. 1120, you said that --

12 that you were tied and escorted to a hangar or whatever by a JNA member.

13 Tell me, on the basis of what did you come to the conclusion that he was a

14 JNA member?

15 A. On the basis of his dialect, the accent he used, and the uniform

16 he wore.

17 Q. When you're talking about the uniform, do you know that yesterday

18 that a Muslim witness sitting in that same chair said that he too had that

19 same kind of uniform in his home, because all military conscripts in those

20 days or at least the majority of them had JNA uniforms in their

21 apartments, and he's a man from Foca.

22 A. That is not true that that is what he said. He said, just I

23 did -- he said, "When I was a military conscript, I wore that uniform."

24 He didn't say that he had it at home.

25 Q. It's not important for us to establish that with you, because

Page 24201

1 there's a transcript from yesterday's proceedings.

2 Is there anything else aside from the uniform on the basis of

3 which you came to the conclusion that he was a JNA member?

4 A. I think I told you enough. His accent and certain -- the way he

5 behaved, because in that critical period, the Serbs moved away.

6 Q. I mean, other witnesses have said and you too I think mentioned

7 paramilitary formations.

8 A. Yes. I think they participated in the overall persecution of

9 Muslims from and expulsion of Muslims from Foca.

10 Q. So this man who tied you, could he have been a member of a

11 paramilitary unit and not the JNA?

12 A. It is more probable that he was a JNA member than a member of the

13 paramilitary unit.

14 Q. But you have no proof of that.

15 A. I've explained it to you.

16 Q. Very well. Thank you, Mr. 1120. I have no further questions?

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

18 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

19 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

20 Q. [Interpretation] Witness B-1120, could you please provide some

21 more explanations to Their Honours in connection only with your arrest and

22 what you experienced while you were in the camp?

23 A. I think that is quite unnecessary for me to repeat. I don't know

24 the umpteenth time that has been said and written for four or five times.

25 JUDGE MAY: I'm sorry, Witness B-1120. You're a witness here.

Page 24202

1 Now, you must answer the questions, if they're proper questions. If

2 they're not, counsel will be stopped. As a witness, your duty is to

3 answer the questions. Yes.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can, but I was thinking of the

5 time we have, and we don't wish to waste each other's time.

6 JUDGE MAY: That's a matter for us.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is quite clear that I was

8 captured on the 11th of April at my workplace.

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Now, allow me to put the question to you. From the moment you

11 were arrested until you were exchanged, were you permanently under the

12 control of other men?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now my question is the following: Those men who deprived you of

15 your freedom, did they that they were members of the Serbian Territorial

16 Defence?

17 A. At first, yes.

18 Q. Thank you. Is it true that you knew most of them because you were

19 in contact with them and their families as part of your work? I won't

20 mention what that work was.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Is it true that they were under the command of Cicmil, I think his

23 name was Milenko, and that he said that he was the commander and that he

24 said that he was carrying out the orders of the Crisis Staff?

25 A. Yes.

Page 24203

1 Q. Is it true that among them was Mladen Zecevic?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You knew him too?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Is it true that Zecevic had a M-48 rifle that belonged to the JNA?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Is it true that you cannot recollect some names of Serbs who were

8 there but that you would recognise them if you saw then?

9 A. Yes. When I was giving my statement, I couldn't remember all 11

10 first and last names, but I knew them at the time they entered the

11 institution to arrest me and the others.

12 Q. Thank you. They were all local Serbs.

13 A. Yes, local Serbs until darkness fell, and these three JNA soldiers

14 arrived to tie our hands up and to take us away.

15 Q. I must say that you didn't mention that in your first statements,

16 but that doesn't matter. What matters is what you say here.

17 Is it true that after that you were taken to Livade and shut up in

18 the hangars of the Territorial Defence which used to contain equipment of

19 the former JNA?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. But at the time, there were no representatives of the JNA in the

22 hangars?

23 A. That night, no. But as from the next morning, that is the 12th of

24 April, they were there.

25 Q. You didn't mention that earlier on. Okay. But what you say now

Page 24204

1 matters. When you were in the KP Dom where you spent the amount of time

2 you said, the guards worked in shifts; is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. They were normal police guards who used to work in the KP Dom

5 before the war too.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Sometimes they wore camouflage uniforms and sometimes former

8 uniforms.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. "The military police only came to the administrative building, and

11 they always wore camouflage uniforms."

12 A. Yes. But during the first few days, the military policemen did

13 enter of the rooms of the detainees, searched them, seized weapons and

14 other valuables.

15 Q. Thank you. "But I recognise some local Serbs that I recognised.

16 For instance, Dragan Zelenovic. I don't know who was his superior,

17 Krnojelac or the military police." Is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Just one more point and then I'll close. Is it true that you

20 never saw anyone being killed in the KP Dom? You describe that people

21 died for the reasons you gave, but you never saw anybody being killed in

22 the KP Dom?

23 A. Not in the actual compound that we could see.

24 Q. One last question. You knew that people were thrown into the

25 nearby river.

Page 24205

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. How did you come to that conclusion?

3 A. People on the higher stories of the KP Dom saw people being take

4 he out of their rooms during the night between the 13th and the 13th of

5 June, because it is very important because 35 men were taken out in that

6 period, first in the administrative building, actually a room meant for

7 mistreatment and torture of prisoners. They were first mistreated, beaten

8 up, and then taken out outside when shots could be heard, and after that,

9 the sound of something falling into the water from a height.

10 Q. My last question is: Is what you said in your first statement

11 true, that prisoners heard something being thrown into the river? "When I

12 got in touch with those prisoners from the top floors, they told me what

13 they heard, and we came to the conclusion that bodies were thrown into the

14 river."

15 A. Yes.

16 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no more

17 questions.

18 Re-examined by Mr. Nice:

19 Q. There is some ambiguity in your answers as recorded on the

20 transcript about the arming of Muslims in advance of the war. Was there

21 any arming on an organised basis by the Muslims before the war?

22 A. No.

23 Q. You have just spoken of the police taking arms from people once

24 they were detained. What sort of arms were you referring to?

25 A. Hunting weapons and the ones that they could procure legally.

Page 24206

1 Q. You've been asked about the detention generally. Was any reason

2 -- and you gave an answer about ethnic cleansing. Was any reason given to

3 you or, to your knowledge, to your fellow detainees to justify your being

4 detained?

5 A. No. What was stressed was that the SDA was to blame for that.

6 But thousands and thousands of detainees never wanted nor were they

7 members of the SDA party, and therefore that speaks of the fact that there

8 was another plan, and that was the persecution and ethnic cleansing in the

9 ways that have already been mentioned.

10 Q. You spoke of the person who took you into detention being more

11 probably JNA than paramilitary. You've already given evidence of what you

12 saw by way of uniform. Is there anything else you want to say that

13 justifies your conclusion more probably JNA than paramilitary?

14 A. Well, I can't be more explicit but to say that there was a

15 different sort of behaviour and the different -- a different uniform that

16 he wore, and the accent, the accent that could be heard.

17 Q. Very well, thank you. Last question: The Cengic exchange, which

18 you say was probably in January 1993, the accused has suggested that in

19 the letter from the Cengics or on their behalf reference was to their

20 being subject only to a blockade rather than to his being informed that

21 they were in a camp. Do you know one way or another what was in the

22 letter that was sent on the Cengics' behalf?

23 A. No. No, I really don't know of the contents of the letter.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just a correction, Mr. May, if I may

25 be allowed to make it.

Page 24207

1 JUDGE MAY: What is the correction?

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's not a question of an exchange

3 of any kind. It was help to these people, not an exchange.

4 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We hear that.

5 Witness B-1120, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for

6 coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are free to go, but

7 just wait a moment while we let the blinds down.

8 MR. NICE: Mr. Groome will deal with the next matters.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the next witness is C-1171, and

10 Mr. McKeon will take this witness. He is on his way.

11 JUDGE MAY: Where is he?

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I think he's sitting outside.

13 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if I could make a few remarks regarding

14 the evidence regarding the Foca municipality. Pursuant to the Chamber's

15 oral ruling of the 8th of May and its written decision of the 30th of June

16 of this year, the transcripts and related exhibits of six witnesses were

17 admitted without cross-examination. At this time I would seek to tender

18 packages for those six witnesses to conclude the presentation of the Foca

19 evidence. The first package would be for Witness B-1121. I would ask

20 that all those exhibits be under seal as they were tendered under seal in

21 the last proceeding.

22 JUDGE MAY: Let us physically decide how we're going to do this.

23 Yes. It looks like quite a lot coming up. It may be, rather than hand

24 them over now, if we identify them and give them numbers now and then they

25 can be handed in to us, it may be, later today.

Page 24208

1 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE MAY: Right. So would you go through the witnesses and

3 we'll get exhibit numbers each time. We'll hand them over later, I think.

4 MR. GROOME: So that's B-1121, a binder of exhibits.

5 JUDGE MAY: I'm sorry. These are the Foca transcript witnesses 92

6 bis; is that right?

7 MR. GROOME: Yes, Your Honour. 92 bis (D).


9 MR. GROOME: Witness B-1537.


11 MR. GROOME: And all of those exhibits under seal. Witness

12 B-1538, all of these exhibits under seal.


14 MR. GROOME: B-1540, only tab 1 of that exhibit needs to be under

15 seal.


17 MR. GROOME: With respect to witness B-1543, tabs 1 through 7 of

18 that exhibit should be under seal.


20 MR. GROOME: And finally, B-1542, all of those exhibits should be

21 under seal.


23 JUDGE MAY: Right. I'm just going to check with the Registry to

24 make sure that they have everything and anything else they need. I gather

25 that's all right. Anything else?

Page 24209












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Page 24210

1 MR. GROOME: Just a final comment, Your Honour: There were two

2 witnesses, B-1015 and B-1618, for which the Prosecution applied to have

3 their transcripts admitted under 92 bis (D) and the Chamber ruled that

4 they were required to appear for cross-examination. With respect to

5 Prosecution witness B-1015, we are unable to locate this witness, and

6 after extensive efforts, do not believe we will be able to locate this

7 witness. We do not believe the witness's evidence is critical enough to

8 warrant an application under 92 bis (C) and therefore we are withdrawing

9 our 92 bis application with respect to that witness. That's 1015.

10 With respect to B-1618, given the significant constraints on time,

11 the Prosecution has reassessed this witness's contribution to the evidence

12 in light of the other Foca evidence that has been introduced, and at this

13 time would move to withdraw its application under 92 bis (D). We, of

14 course, apologise for burdening the Court with consideration of that

15 witness's matter. In fairness to the accused, if there is some evidence

16 available from that witness that he would seek to introduce on the Defence

17 case, we would, of course, cooperate in the production of that witness for

18 the Defence case.

19 And that concludes all of the evidence in the Foca municipality.

20 JUDGE MAY: Thank you, Mr. Groome. We'll go on with the next

21 witness. Can we have the next witness, please.

22 [The witness entered court]

23 JUDGE MAY: I'm sorry. Yes. Take the declaration, if you would.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

25 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 24211

1 JUDGE MAY: If you would like to take a seat.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.


4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. McKeon.

6 MR. McKEON: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Examined by Mr. McKeon:

8 Q. Good morning, sir. I think as you know, you've been granted

9 certain protective measures by the Trial Chamber, so I will refer to you

10 by your pseudonym, C-1171, during the course of your testimony this

11 morning.

12 I would ask you if you could take a look at a piece of paper

13 that's going to be shown to you and tell us, please, just by answering yes

14 or no whether that's your name on the first line of this document.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, sir, did you previously testify here at the Tribunal in the

17 case of Prosecutor versus Slavko Dokmanovic?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And yesterday, did you have a chance to review a transcript of

20 your testimony in English with the assistance of a language interpreter

21 where you thought it necessary to help you with the English?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And as a result of that review did you find a few errors in your

24 transcript that you would like to correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 24212

1 Q. I'd like to ask if a copy of the transcript could be placed in

2 front of the witness and ask you to turn, please, first to page 952, line

3 4?

4 JUDGE MAY: Before we do that, it should have an exhibit number if

5 it hasn't already got one.

6 MR. McKEON: Your Honour, that is tab 3 in the exhibits tendered.

7 JUDGE MAY: Yes, but what's the bundle?

8 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P499.

9 MR. McKEON: All right.

10 Q. Sir, do you have that in front of you, page 952, line 4?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 Q. Okay. And -- thank you. And there should the correct word be

13 Transjug Rijeka?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. If you could turn, please, to page 955, lines 4 to 5 where it

16 refers there to the Assembly of People's Guards, is that also known as the

17 ZNG?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. If you could turn to page 960, lines 4 through 8, please. There

20 it says that you returned and stayed with your parents in September, and

21 in fact, you stayed with your parents until September and then returned to

22 their house in November; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Okay. If you could turn to page 977, please, lines 15 through 18.

25 You will see there you've described a big man in an olive-grey or

Page 24213

1 green uniform of the former JNA without any insignia rank and you say he

2 was a very big man, he wore a moustache, and he had a whistle. In fact,

3 you were describing there, were you not, two different people that you

4 saw?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Could you tell us briefly, please, what the first man looked like

7 and what the second man looked like?

8 A. The first man looked like this: He had a powerful body. He had a

9 red beard and a cap, a brown cap, a woollen one, and he had maybe not a

10 regular military uniform but a sort of strange kind of camouflage uniform.

11 And the other one had a military uniform, and that one had a whistle, and

12 he was most probably a commander in the area.

13 Q. Could you see any insignia rank on the second man, and if so, why

14 not?

15 A. No, because it was a windjammer of the former JNA, and there was

16 no rank insignia. Probably the rank insignia was somewhere on the

17 clothing underneath, on the shirt or elsewhere.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would be very grateful to you if

21 you would kindly ask the witness to speak up, because despite the fact

22 that I have the headset in my ear, I can barely hear him.

23 JUDGE MAY: Perhaps if you went a bit closer to the microphone

24 that might help. Yes.

25 MR. McKEON:

Page 24214

1 Q. Finally could you --

2 A. Very well.

3 Q. I'm sorry. Finally, could you turn, please, to page 981, line 12

4 of the transcript of your testimony.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You will see in the middle or to the end of that line there is the

7 a name that starts Zambata, Z-a-m-b-a-t-a -- in fact the correct name

8 should be, first name should be Slaven, S-l-a-v-e-n, surname Vukojevic,

9 V-u-k-o-j-e-v-i-c, and this person is also known as Zambata; is that

10 correct?

11 A. Correct, yes.

12 MR. McKEON: With these corrections, Your Honour, we would like to

13 offer the transcript of this witness's testimony into evidence under Rule

14 92 bis (D).

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes, that's done.

16 MR. McKEON: This is a summary of the witness's previous

17 testimony, Your Honour. This man is a man from Vukovar, Croatia. During

18 the summer of 1991 when the shelling of Vukovar started, the witness

19 joined in the defence of Vukovar. By about the 16th of November, 1991, it

20 was obvious to the witness that it would be impossible for them to defend

21 the city any longer. On the 18th of November, 1991, the witness went with

22 his parents to the Vukovar Hospital because he heard there was going to be

23 an evacuation convoy from there. He registered at the hospital on the

24 list of wounded upon his father's insistence because he had been wounded

25 several times.

Page 24215

1 The witness saw military or paramilitary forces come to the

2 hospital from the city centre, specifically a Major of the JNA in an

3 armoured vehicle with several members of his unit. They entered the

4 hospital ground, and the major established the security at the facility.

5 The witness spent the night at the hospital.

6 The next morning, the witness was called out of the hospital with

7 shouts and was forced through the emergency door of the hospital. The

8 witness and others were lined up in two rose and searched. There were

9 three buses waiting guarding by soldiers carrying machine-guns. After the

10 buses were loaded, the buses went to the JNA barracks. There, the convoy

11 of the three buses formed a semicircle in the middle of the compound.

12 Within the compound were quite a number of people that were circling the

13 buses, some of them shouting, some of them making threats. After some

14 time, another two or three buses joined the others waiting there.

15 They stayed there for quite some time, listening to curses,

16 threats, and insults. After about two hours, the buses left the JNA

17 barracks base and went to Ovcara.

18 At Ovcara, the passengers from the buses were disembarked one by

19 one. Everything was taken away from these people, everything of value.

20 People were forced to pile up their personal belongings on a large heap.

21 The people were then taken into the hangar itself where they had to run a

22 gauntlet. The people in the gauntlet who were there to meet them were

23 beating them with all sorts of things they had in their hands, including

24 shovels and iron bars. Inside the hangar, the torture continued.

25 The witness himself was hit on the head, probably with an iron

Page 24216

1 bar. As he ran the gauntlet he was hit several times, and then he was

2 thrown on the straw that was in the hangar. The people doing the beatings

3 were wearing different clothes, some with the insignia of the JNA.

4 After the buses had been emptied, the witness estimates that there

5 were between 200 and 300 people in the building. One soldier, neat and

6 tidy in a camouflage uniform, was making a list of detainees. Inside the

7 building was a man in a JNA uniform. He used a whistle to channel the

8 activities of the others and he would stop them or tell them to continue.

9 Inside the hangar, the terror continued. Ten to 20 people were

10 going around in circles, questioning first one person and then another,

11 and torturing them and beating them using all the resources they had

12 available, including rifles, baseball bats, wooden sticks, hands, arms,

13 feet, legs, and military boots.

14 One person was beaten so badly the witness is convinced this

15 person died from his injuries. He saw them kicking this person, beating

16 him with weapons, and stamping on his head and body. They made this

17 person sing Chetnik songs. The witness saw another man beaten with his

18 own crutches.

19 Q. After night fell, people were led outside in groups of ten or 15.

20 They were ordered to line up by the soldiers. This happened about every

21 ten or 15 minutes. People were selected according to their position

22 inside the hangar, starting from the door. The witness himself was

23 selected in the third, fourth, or fifth group. He was taken out and put

24 on a military vehicle with a canvas cover. There were approximately ten

25 or 15 people in his group. They were told they were being transferred to

Page 24217

1 another hangar. During the journey, the witness saw an opportunity and

2 jumped from the truck.

3 He ran as fast as he could in the direction of Vukovar. Shortly

4 after he jumped, he heard a short burst of fire and a couple of individual

5 shots and that was the last he heard.

6 He was recaptured shortly thereafter, beaten, and then taken to

7 Stari Jankovci under guard. There he was beaten again. He was eventually

8 taken to Sid and then Sremska Mitrovica, and finally ended up in a prison

9 in Belgrade. In Sid, the witness was asked by his interrogator what he

10 knew about Ovcara and how many people had been killed there or whether

11 anyone had been killed.

12 The witness was eventually charged in Belgrade with the crime of

13 armed revolt and crime against a civilian population but the trial was

14 never completed. The witness was released from military prison on 14

15 August 1992 as part of a prisoner exchange.

16 And I have just a couple of additional questions, Your Honour,

17 that's not from his transcript.

18 Q. Sir, when you were at Sremska Mitrovica, were you ever held in a

19 cell in the basement called "the ice room"?

20 A. Yes. Yes.

21 Q. Do you know why this was called "the ice room"?

22 A. Probably because of the cold that was in the room.

23 Q. Were you provided in this room with anything to keep you warm

24 while you were there?

25 A. Nothing special except an old army blanket.

Page 24218

1 Q. And, sir, while you were in this room, did you ever hear noises of

2 other prisoners being beaten? And if so, could you tell the Trial Chamber

3 what you heard.

4 A. Well, you could hear the blows, the screams, and the fact that

5 people were being mistreated. I couldn't see anything because we were in

6 a closed-off space, but I heard the sound, the noise.

7 Q. And, sir, during your time at Sremska Mitrovica, were you yourself

8 ever beaten and did you suffer any injuries?

9 A. They did beat me upon arrival when they took me to Mitrovica, and

10 while I was taken for interrogation I would receive blows. I was beaten a

11 little more.

12 Q. Now, sir, during the war in Vukovar, did you ever have the

13 opportunity to visit Vukovar Hospital?

14 A. I didn't understand your question quite.

15 Q. Let me try again. During the war, before the fall of Vukovar, did

16 you ever have the opportunity to go over to Vukovar Hospital for any

17 reason?

18 A. At all times.

19 Q. What was your purpose for going over to the hospital?

20 A. There was some wounded men in our unit, so we would frequently go

21 there to visit them.

22 Q. When you went to the hospital, were you allowed to enter the

23 hospital carrying a gun? And if so, what did you have to do with your

24 weapons?

25 A. Nobody was allowed to enter the hospital with weapons on them.

Page 24219

1 There were guards which -- which stood at the entrance to the hospital,

2 and each of us had to leave our weapons before entering the hospital.

3 MR. McKEON: Finally, I'd like to have placed in front of the

4 witness tab 2 from the exhibits. This is the annex from the Croatia

5 indictment, Your Honours.

6 Q. Yesterday, sir, did you have the opportunity to take this list and

7 mark it with a pink marker, indicating people that you saw on the 19th or

8 20th of November at either the Vukovar Hospital, on the buses, at the JNA

9 barracks, at Ovcara, or on the truck itself from which you jumped?

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. McKEON: Thank you, Your Honour. That's all the questions

12 that I have.

13 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

14 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

15 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. 1171, your testimony relates to the year

16 1991, the whole of it; isn't that right?

17 A. Mostly, yes.

18 Q. Is it beyond dispute that Croatia, in those days, the days you're

19 testifying about, was certainly a component part of the SFRY?

20 A. No, it is not beyond dispute. As of 1990, Croatia was a formed

21 state.

22 Q. But the earliest recognitions of independence occurred in 1992.

23 A. That is your opinion.

24 Q. Those are facts, but you don't know consider it to have been a

25 component part of the SFRY in 1991?

Page 24220

1 A. It probably was, but not in the way you probably think.

2 Q. I didn't qualify. Anyway, in those days, in fact, the president

3 of the Presidency was Stjepan Mesic from Croatia, et cetera, et cetera.

4 So in 1991 it certainly was a component part of the SFRY. Do you know

5 that or not?

6 A. Conditionally, yes.

7 Q. Very well. Reading your statement to the investigators on the

8 14th of July, 1995, I see that the -- at the end of the summer 1991, in

9 the summer of 1991, you joined units of the National Guards Corps in

10 Vukovar; is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. It true that you were under the direct command of Mile Dedakovic,

13 known as Jastreb, the hawk, and Branko Borkovic, known as the small hawk

14 or Mali Jastreb?

15 A. That's right.

16 Q. As far as I know they are not from Vukovar, is that right?

17 A. Yes, yes.

18 Q. Is it true that they were sent there from Zagreb to form armed

19 units in Vukovar, the aim of which first to expel as many Serbs as

20 possible from Vukovar and then to engage in combat activity against the

21 JNA and its members. Is that so or not?

22 A. I can't comment on that.

23 Q. Very well. And did you join them as soon as they arrived?

24 A. No.

25 Q. When did they arrive?

Page 24221












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Page 24222

1 A. I don't know that either.

2 Q. You don't know that. And is it true that in those days the town

3 mayor of Vukovar was Marin Vidic, Bili?

4 A. As far as I know, he was commissioner of the government for

5 Vukovar, not the town mayor.

6 Q. Of the Republic of Croatia for Vukovar?

7 A. Yes, the commissioner of the government of Croatia for Vukovar.

8 Q. Is it true that before the Jastrebs and Borkovic came to the

9 territory of Vukovar there were organised and well-armed units there?

10 A. I don't know that.

11 Q. You don't know that. Have you ever heard of Ferdinand Jukic known

12 as Jejo?

13 A. I have heard of him.

14 Q. And is it true that already at the beginning of the summer of 1991

15 large quantities of various weapons were reaching Vukovar organised

16 precisely by those Jukic known as Jejo, and a local policeman called

17 Vladimir Majo?

18 A. I don't know that.

19 Q. And is it true that purchases of these weapons were financed by

20 the Ministry of Defence of the Croatia, the weapons you had at your

21 disposal in Vukovar?

22 A. I cannot know that.

23 Q. And is it true that Jastreb immediately after forming -- arriving

24 in Vukovar formed companies and a brigade from Borovo Naselje of the ZNG,

25 headed by -- and a brigade from Mitnica with Ivas Soljic, a brigade for

Page 24223

1 Sajmiste headed by Stipe Susic and an operative brigade headed by Ivica

2 Arbanas?

3 A. I don't know. I don't know that.

4 Q. Which of these formations were you in?

5 A. In the National Guards Corps, which later became the Croatian army

6 and the 204th brigade. These were four brigades of the ZNG, which one

7 were you a member of?

8 A. This is the first I hear of this structure.

9 Q. You don't know who was your commander?

10 A. Jastreb, both the older one and the younger one.

11 Q. I didn't hear you.

12 A. Jastreb, just Jastreb.

13 Q. Had you heard of Danijel Rehak?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did he select members of these brigades?

16 A. He took part in the formation of the Croatian army or at least the

17 National Guards Corps when I was involved in it.

18 Q. As you yourself say, you were a commander of a unit for placing

19 mines in Vukovar and the surroundings, which was under the direct control

20 of Jastreb and Borkovic as you now say.

21 A. Yes, because Danijel Rehak participated together with Borkovic in

22 forming that brigade of the national guards, that is the Croatian army.

23 Q. You had between eight and ten people on an average in your unit.

24 A. Let's say that that was right.

25 Q. Is it true that in September 1991, under instructions of Marin

Page 24224

1 Vidic, Borkovic formed a police unit, a military police unit?

2 A. A military police unit existed. How and who formed it, I don't

3 know.

4 Q. And is it true that beginning with the 3rd of September, 1991, a

5 JNA garrison in Vukovar was blocked in terms of water and electricity

6 supplies, the PTT lines, as well as supplies of food to the soldiers in

7 the garrison could not be delivered as of the 3rd of September, 1991?

8 A. I don't know. I wasn't part of the defence forces then.

9 Q. Could you please speak up, because I can't hear you.

10 A. I really don't know. I was not in the defence at the time.

11 Q. Have you ever heard of Ante Roso?

12 A. From the media yes.

13 Q. Is it true that already during the summer of 1991 this man with

14 his legionnaires set up rocket systems at Count Erceg's palace used for

15 constant attacks against the JNA and its units?

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. You don't know that. Very well. And within the National Guards

18 Corps in Vukovar was is there any other mine unit except yours, the one

19 you were a member of?

20 A. Formally, no.

21 Q. No. Tell me, please, Mr. 1171, are you known by a nickname?

22 A. You mean a wartime nickname, a nom de guerre?

23 Q. Yes.

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 24225

1 JUDGE MAY: [redacted]. We'll go back into private

2 session if you have any more question about this.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, let us not go into private

5 session. I will not repeat this nickname, but I will ask the witness

6 questions bearing that in mind.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Tell me, Mr. 1171, why did you not tell the investigators that you

9 were known under that nickname during the period you are testifying about?

10 A. I did not omit anything that was important for any kind of

11 investigation or anything else.

12 Q. I have here a report of the Permanent Mission of the Federal

13 Republic of Yugoslavia in Geneva in which, on a page bearing your ERN

14 number 00074372, says: The charges are, and then three persons are named

15 including yourself, your first and last name and nickname, the one we've

16 just established --

17 JUDGE MAY: I think we'll just take this in private session.

18 We'll go into private session.

19 [Private session]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 24226













13 Pages 24226-24229 redacted private session













Page 24230

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [Open session]

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Nothing that wasn't in open session.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 24231

1 Q. Now, is it true that these two persons were arrested in Vukovar in

2 November 1991?

3 A. Yes, in the surrounding parts of Vukovar.

4 Q. And you were together in the military prison; isn't that right?

5 A. Yes. We were detainees in the military prison.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, go on, please.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. I wasn't quite clear on one point when you answered a question

10 from Mr. McKeon. You were talking about some abuse, mistreatment, serious

11 mistreatment. I would like you to be specific in your answer to this. In

12 the military prison in Belgrade, did anybody mistreat you, abuse you in

13 any way, or subject you to any kind of torture? So I'm asking you about

14 the military prison in Belgrade now.

15 A. No. At the military prison, nobody mistreated me or physically

16 abused me at all.

17 Q. Did you all give statements to the military investigating organs

18 in Belgrade?

19 A. I gave a statement in Sremska Mitrovica.

20 Q. Tell me, is it also true that you were not an expert only for the

21 devices that we mentioned earlier on but also for other types of weapons

22 as well?

23 A. Can you be more specific, tell me what you mean exactly?

24 Q. Is it true that in addition to the devices that you handled that

25 we mentioned a moment ago, these lethal devices, that you had knowledge of

Page 24232

1 other types of weapons as well? Can you explain what an Osa is when it

2 comes to weapons? What kind of a weapon is Osa?

3 A. I can only say in principle. It is an anti-armoured device,

4 anti-armoured.

5 Q. At you personally, Mr. 1171, did anybody shoot at you personally

6 from a catering establishment in Vukovar?

7 A. At me? I don't know. Not to my knowledge, no.

8 Q. And is it true that you, yourself, when shooting from this weapon,

9 this Osa weapon at the end of October 1991, completely destroyed the

10 catering establishment - a catering establishment, I don't want to mention

11 its name - and already the next day you did the same, shooting at another

12 catering establishment, both of them in Vukovar?

13 JUDGE MAY: One thing at a time.

14 It's alleged, Witness 1171, that you destroyed a catering

15 establishment using a particular weapon.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's nonsense. I never had any

17 weapon like that for me to use it for any purpose, even military purpose.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. I just wish to remind you, in this same document, and I'm not

20 going to mention the name at all, it's your first and last name - the name

21 of the page is 00074371, the ERN number - and it says -- it gives your

22 name and surname, "from Vukovar, member of the Croatian National Guard --

23 a civilian from Vukovar, member of the Croatian National Guard, charged

24 for the war crime against the civilian population under Article 142,

25 paragraph 2, in connection with paragraph 1 of the Criminal Code of the

Page 24233












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13 English transcripts.













Page 24234

1 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. [In English] At the end of October 1992

2 in violation of the norms of international law relating to armed

3 conflicts, he hit unprotected civilian facilities by firing a missile from

4 an Osa missile-launcher at --" [Interpretation] And then it says --

5 JUDGE MAY: It doesn't matter about what it says. The witness

6 says he has never fired one. So he simply denies it, so there's no point

7 putting it again. The fact that it's written down doesn't make it any

8 truer.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, this is an official report,

10 and I hope that you will exhibit it, and you might be interested in

11 reading it, Mr. May. If you refuse to do so, then that's your affair.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I add something, please?

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes, of course.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Milosevic identifies me as a

15 civilian. I wasn't a civilian. So there's a misunderstanding there. I

16 was militarily organised, and my actions were military, not as a civilian

17 from the region. So there seems to be some mix-up there, basic mix-up.

18 And as I say, I never used that kind of weapon at all.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. I just read what it says here. I'm not giving any qualifications

21 about you at all.

22 A. All right, fine.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, are you going to accept

24 this document or not?

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 24235

1 JUDGE MAY: We'll admit it for what it's worth, yes. Give it a

2 number, please.


4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Very well. Mr. 1171, as you claim that you did not destroy these

6 civilian facilities, do you know at all that those particular facilities

7 were in fact destroyed, as were the facilities of local Serbs, using those

8 kind of devices in Vukovar?

9 A. I don't know about that. Did you say that was October, or what

10 month?

11 Q. I've just handed it over to the registrar of this Trial Chamber,

12 so I don't know exactly. I can't say, but I can find it, of course. It's

13 October 1991, yes.

14 A. That was wartime activity. So there's no sense in speaking about

15 that terrible shelling, that somebody blew up somebody's facilities when

16 your forces ignited the whole town, which you can't deny.

17 JUDGE MAY: The time has come to adjourn. We are going to adjourn

18 now, Witness C-1171, for 20 minutes. Could you remember not to speak to

19 anybody about your evidence until it's over, and that does include the

20 members of the Prosecution team.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

22 --- Recess taken at 12.17 p.m.

23 --- On resuming at 12.41 p.m.

24 JUDGE MAY: Yes. The exhibit which has just been handed in,

25 161, D161, is under seal.

Page 24236

1 MR. McKEON: Your Honour, just one point. Over the break, I had a

2 chance to look at D161, and I wanted to bring to the Court's attention

3 that the second incident describes with an Osa missile launcher, in fact,

4 it's somebody else's name that is above that. It is not the name of this

5 particular witness.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Thank you.

7 Now, we have to adjourn at half past one today, which means we've

8 got a little over three-quarters of an hour. We will divide the time as

9 best we can. Mr. Milosevic, you've had half an hour. If you can finish

10 in the next half hour, we'll perhaps give you another five minutes or so.

11 We must give enough time for the amicus, very briefly, and for the

12 re-examination, but we must finish at half past one. Yes.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll do my best, Mr. May, to get

14 through this as quickly as possible, the cross-examination of this

15 witness.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. A moment ago you said, Mr. 1171, that you were not a paramilitary

18 formation and to the investigators on the 14th of June, 1995, in your

19 statement on page 3, paragraph 1, you said the following, referring to

20 your group, the group that we mentioned, you say, I don't want to say its

21 name and you say and I quote: "We were not a paramilitary unit." Is that

22 what you said?

23 A. Well, I can't see the document, but that's how it was. We really

24 weren't a paramilitary unit.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

Page 24237

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Can you tell me what law it was, republican or federal, dating

3 back to 1991 provided for this unit or the Croatian National Guards Corps

4 as a legal armed formation?

5 A. Well, I don't have that kind of document.

6 Q. What?

7 A. I didn't have the documents. I can't tell you the number of the

8 documents.

9 Q. On page 3, paragraph 1, you claim that you were an ordinary

10 citizen and that as such --

11 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness have a copy of his statement so he can

12 follow. Has he got one? Perhaps the usher could help him. I don't know

13 if he can find his way around it.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. As I was saying, page 3, paragraph 1, you claim that you were an

16 ordinary citizen, citizens who tried to defend their homes; is that right?

17 A. Of course that's what we did. We were militarily organised

18 citizens.

19 Q. So who attacked you, for example, in March 1991? Who was it that

20 attacked you and which Dom in Vukovar was threaten?

21 A. I'm talking about my inclusion into the conflict, not about all

22 the conflicts that you're referring to.

23 Q. Very well, Mr. 1171. Now, do you know who the Croat from Vukovar

24 is by the name of Zvonimir Ostojic?

25 A. Never heard of him. No, I don't.

Page 24238

1 Q. All right. Now, can you tell me whether you know anything about

2 this other man or, rather, what he is saying, what he says, because you

3 had contacts with Glavas and Mercep, and otherwise it's the statement of

4 Zvonimir Ostojic which was handed over to me by Mr. McKeon. 0263353 is

5 the ERN number. That's the first page. And it says: "The positions of

6 Glavas and Mercep which I heard on several occasions were the struggle to

7 establish the independent State of Croatia which it would include parts of

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina and that on these territories the problem of the Serbs

9 should be solved in such a way as killing a third, changing the religion

10 of the third and expelling the remaining third."

11 Do you know of those positions?

12 A. I never had anything to do with those two men, so I really can't

13 comment.

14 Q. But do you know their attitudes and positions that were common

15 knowledge in Vukovar at the time?

16 A. I didn't know of those positions, no.

17 Q. And do you know the other thing that he says: When it comes to

18 military organisation, I know that Mercep and Zadro, Blago Zadro were the

19 main people in the Vukovar municipality who were to organise an armed

20 resistance against the JNA and that there was a Crisis Staff for Vukovar

21 made up of Mercep Tomislav, Zadro Blago, Gazo Josip, Radas S., and another

22 one or two persons who were just there as figure heard whereas the

23 mainstay was being held by Mercep and Zadar. Wasn't that how it was,

24 Mr. 1171?

25 A. I don't know anything of that. I didn't take part in any of it

Page 24239

1 nor was I included in any of it.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, this is a statement, Mr. May,

3 which was served on me by Mr. McKeon's side, and I think it can be

4 exhibited.

5 JUDGE MAY: We'll consider that.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Mr. 1171, on page 3 of your statement, you say that around the

8 16th, 1991 is the year, with the intention of joining the convoy and

9 fleeing from Vukovar, you went to the Vukovar Hospital and found a lot of

10 people there; is that right?

11 A. Well, it's not quite right, no.

12 Q. Well, how was it? What is right?

13 A. What is right is that when the defence was disbanded or, rather,

14 when Jastreb left the headquarters and command post, I disbanded my

15 soldiers and went back home. And then rumours started going round that

16 some sort of evacuation was being organised and that everybody should

17 gather round in the hospital compound. So that is closer to the truth.

18 Q. Well, I'm going to quote paragraph 5 on page 3 of the B/C/S

19 version, the Serbo-Croatian version of your statement: "I heard over the

20 radio that there might be a convoy which would be taking people elsewhere

21 in Croatia from the town so with my parents I went to the Vukovar Hospital

22 on the 18th of November where I found many people, but nowhere was the

23 convoy to be seen. My father told that I should go to the hospital and

24 put my name down on the list of injured in the hospital."

25 A. Yes.

Page 24240

1 Q. Well, it was a little different from what you're saying now.

2 A. What did you say?

3 Q. It's a little different.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it depends how this was

6 interpreted or translated. I can't see my own handwriting. But even if

7 that's what it says, I didn't go to the hospital to put my name down as

8 somebody who had been wounded, and I didn't listen to the radio. I didn't

9 even have a radio set. So that wasn't how I reached this piece of

10 information. I don't know how this was interpreted.

11 Now, when we got there, people began saying that a list of wounded

12 persons for evacuation purposes was being formed, and as I had been

13 wounded on several occasions, my name was entered onto that list, and my

14 father prevailed upon me to do so, to come forward.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm going to ask you, Mr. May, to

16 return that original to me, please, but I have here an original book.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. You say that there were many people in the Vukovar Hospital, and I

19 have the original logbook from the -- or register from the Vukovar

20 Hospital, and in it we have an entry of the 2nd of November, 1991, going

21 up to the 18th. The number is 610 -- from 610 to 655 are the numbers

22 listed, which makes a total of 45 persons during all those difficult 18

23 days of fighting in Vukovar, in the hospital, according to this hospital

24 logbook.

25 A. Well, that must be some kind of forgery.

Page 24241

1 Q. Well, you can take a look at the book. It is the original copy.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And, Mr. May, you can have a look at

3 it. I've marked the pages.


5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

6 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness look.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. A paper clip denotes the pages referring to that critical time,

9 from the beginning to the 18th of November. And you can see the numbers,

10 the persons admitted throughout that time, and the total number is 45

11 persons, and the numbers range from 610 to 655.

12 A. Well, I don't know what to say. I've never had figures of this

13 kind before my eyes, and this is the first time that I'm -- I've been

14 given a chance to look at this kind of document. Without questioning its

15 authenticity - I don't want to enter into that, whether this has been

16 certified and proclaimed original - I don't understand your question, and

17 what has that got to do with my overall testimony at all?

18 Q. It has to do with your assertion saying that the hospital was full

19 of wounded people, whereas there we can see that only 45 persons were

20 admitted during those 18 days, from the beginning of November up until the

21 18th of November.

22 A. Yes. And what about the others that were admitted throughout the

23 war and it lasted longer than the 2nd of November onwards?

24 Q. Is it true, Mr. 1171, that in actual fact you, just like the other

25 members of the Croatian National Guards Corps in fact filled the hospital

Page 24242

1 up with -- you presented yourselves as being falsely wounded so that you

2 could join a convoy with people who were actually wounded to leave

3 Vukovar?

4 A. That is a pure insinuation on your part, and it is not correct

5 either.


7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, will you please accept this

8 book and exhibit it, but can I have the original back, please?

9 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. We can't do all this together. Let us

10 begin -- we'll have a look at the book, if we may. Now, the only way we

11 can exhibit it is by having it.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That is why I'm producing it and

13 offering it to you.

14 JUDGE MAY: Very well. And the Prosecution too must be able to

15 have a look at it. You can have it back if you want to ask some more

16 questions about it, but if you then want it exhibited, it must be produced

17 to the Court, it will be marked for identification, and the Prosecution

18 can then make any objections.

19 Yes. Give it back to the accused. We'll give it a number.

20 JUDGE MAY: Mr. McKeon, is there anything you want to add about

21 that?

22 MR. McKEON: Yes, Your Honour. Even without seeing this book,

23 this is not something that we have ever seen before.

24 JUDGE MAY: No, I know you haven't seen it, that's why you will

25 have the chance to object.

Page 24243

1 MR. McKEON: But we have absolutely no idea where it comes from or

2 how it could be authentic.

3 JUDGE MAY: No. Of course. But let's have it in and we'll see

4 what it's worth. We'll have a number for it.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Keep the book and then you'll be

6 able to verify its authenticity.

7 THE INTERPRETER: We can't hear the microphone.

8 JUDGE MAY: I've turned the microphone off. We'll deal with this

9 in an orderly fashion. Where is the book? Can we have the book.

10 Mr. Milosevic, have you got the book back? Well, give it to the

11 Court.

12 Very well. We will now have a number for the book, marked for

13 identification only.


15 JUDGE MAY: Very well. The Prosecution can have a look at it, and

16 then they can make submissions.

17 Yes. Let's go on.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Tell me, please, is it true, in view of such a small number of

20 people admitted into the hospital from the beginning until the 18th --

21 JUDGE MAY: No. He's answered that question. He can't give any

22 further answers on the book. He knows nothing about it. He's never seen

23 it before.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I won't ask him about the book,

25 Mr. May, but I am asking him whether it is true that numerous members of

Page 24244

1 the National Guards Corps who were not wounded rushed to the hospital so

2 that, organised by Dr. Vesna Bosanac and Dr. Navro, they put on bandages

3 and plaster to present themselves as wounded so as to be transferred in

4 that condition to territory under Croatian control.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Is that true?

7 A. That probably is not true. Now, whether there were individuals,

8 it's quite possible, but this is just the product of imagination. But

9 what is realistic is that the hospital was full of wounded during the

10 conflict. It was packed full. It was overflowing. For anybody else to

11 have to be added to give the impression that the hospital was full of the

12 wounded, that is a distortion of the fact.

13 Q. Your position on that matter is clear to me so I won't dwell on it

14 any more. We have the evidence.

15 On page 3, paragraph 7, you said that some soldiers who came to

16 the hospital that day, judging by their uniforms and appearance, appeared

17 to be members of the JNA whereas some were obviously not regular troops

18 but were territorials. Is that what you said?

19 A. Probably, yes, because that's how it was.

20 Q. Tell me, how did you distinguish the regular JNA troops from

21 volunteers and TO members?

22 A. In the first place, by the clothing they wore; their appearance

23 and dress.

24 Q. I'm hurrying to make the best of my time. On page 5, paragraph 3,

25 you said that during the night, you saw a soldier, Nikola Uglik, who was

Page 24245












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13 English transcripts.













Page 24246

1 with some men who were not regular soldiers.

2 A. That's what it looked like to me.

3 Q. You said that because they had only parts of uniforms on them and

4 strange caps; is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And while you were in hospital, did you notice that any JNA

7 soldier, that you could clearly set apart according to what you yourself

8 said, that any JNA soldier was maltreating a patient, any hospital

9 personnel or anyone there?

10 A. No. I didn't notice any mistreatment.

11 Q. Thank you. Also on page 4, paragraph 7, you say that the next

12 morning at 7.30, buses arrived in front of the hospital guarded by young

13 JNA soldiers. Is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Is it true that JNA members did not use any force, they were just

16 standing next to the buses, in their regular capacity?

17 A. They used force in the sense of chasing people out, searching them

18 and escorting them into the vehicles under threat of weapons, which is a

19 kind of coercion.

20 Q. The soldiers were armed.

21 A. Of course they were.

22 Q. Well, that's nothing unusual.

23 A. Yes, but they were pointing their guns at the men.

24 Q. Is it true that you were transported by bus to the fairgrounds?

25 A. Yes.

Page 24247

1 Q. Is it true that that locality was under the control of the TO of

2 Vukovar?

3 A. Actually, there was a barracks there, a barracks in Vukovar, and

4 it was not in Croatian control. I'm referring to the Croatian military

5 forces.

6 Q. But it was under the control of members of the Territorial

7 Defence.

8 A. You can tell me that; I don't know about that.

9 Q. Is it true that within that base you recognised a local citizen

10 from Borovo Selo?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. And is it true that you stated then on page 5, paragraph 1, that

13 in spite of threats you didn't see any force being used in relation to

14 anyone in the base?

15 A. Yes, except for verbal abuse. I didn't see any physical abuse.

16 Q. Is it true that after waiting for two hours you were taken from

17 there by bus to Ovcara?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And then, as you say, you had to pass through the so-called

20 gauntlet of soldiers, you say, and members of paramilitary units who beat

21 you. Is that what you stated?

22 A. Probably, yes, because that is what happened. Not just to me but

23 all of us who were in those buses.

24 Q. And is it true that on that occasion you managed, according to

25 what you yourself say, to recognise a man who was a local tradesman from

Page 24248

1 Vukovar?

2 A. Yes. While waiting to get off, I saw this local man, businessman,

3 from Vukovar.

4 Q. Is it true that you also saw many soldiers who had on their caps

5 cockades or fur hats on their heads?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. Were those JNA members?

8 A. I don't belong to them, nor do I know, but they were probably

9 organised together. They acted with the JNA and without the JNA. I

10 didn't see their ID cards.

11 Q. So I assume that you yourself must know that they couldn't have

12 been members of the JNA wearing such insignia and fur hats, subaras

13 [phoen].

14 A. Well, probably not. Maybe you can testify about that, who had

15 what assignments and authority.

16 Q. Mr. 1171, in page 5, you say that inside the building you were in

17 at Ovcara you noticed a man 50 to 60 years of age who was fat, and you

18 assumed that he was a JNA officer.

19 A. Yes. That's what he looked like, because he was in full military

20 dress, and he appeared to be -- I don't know how to put it.

21 Q. You say that he was, on top, wearing something, a jacket.

22 A. He was wearing a military wind jacket. The rest was military

23 uniform, so from that one could conclude that he was an officer because he

24 used his whistle to call people to order and he was issuing orders within

25 the hangar in that area.

Page 24249

1 Q. If you use the earlier criteria for distinguishing JNA members

2 from others, could you say of him with certainty that he was a JNA

3 officer?

4 A. He appeared to be that. I can't say anything with certainty. I

5 was not able to go up to anyone and ask him who he was and what he was,

6 give me your IDs. This is just on the basis of my own observation.

7 Q. Yes, but people who were in the room with you, as you say on page

8 5 last paragraph, they were beaten by people who had parts of uniforms on

9 them.

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. Well, isn't that clear that they were not JNA members?

12 A. It is partly clear, but they were assisted by those who were

13 wearing regular uniforms.

14 Q. On the basis of everything that you have said, is it quite clear

15 that Ovcara was not under the control of the JNA but by members of the TO

16 or some paramilitary units?

17 A. No. I can't come to that conclusion because it was co-organised.

18 They were assisting one another or acting together.

19 Q. Very well. All those that you have described, you described as

20 people who could not be JNA members. Never mind. But you say there were

21 about 300 prisoner at Ovcara?

22 A. Up to or about. As for the commander. He was some sort of a

23 military JNA organised person. At least that's what he looked like.

24 Q. You say that you knew many of the prisoners but not well.

25 A. Some of them well, some of them not so well.

Page 24250

1 Q. Tell me, how many of them were your co-fighters and members of the

2 National Guards Corps?

3 A. None of them were.

4 Q. No. So you were the only one?

5 A. Yes, the only one. No, the only one from my unit. That's right.

6 Q. Then you go on to say that in a group of 15 to 20 from Ovcara you

7 were transferred by truck somewhere else, and in addition to you there was

8 a driver and a soldier with a rifle.

9 A. No soldiers or so-called soldier was next to me but only those who

10 were being transported, and we were being moved with the explanation that

11 you were -- that we were going to another hangar.

12 Q. In a two-tonne truck?

13 A. In any event, it was a military vehicle.

14 Q. Was it a civilian truck or a military truck judging by licence

15 plates?

16 A. Quite certainly a JNA truck.

17 Q. And the person who was with you as escort, the only soldier, did

18 he look to you like a JNA soldier?

19 A. He was not an escort. He was there only to we were boarding the

20 truck. Later on, he sat next to the driver.

21 Q. Did he look like a JNA member?

22 A. Yes, he was a member of the JNA.

23 Q. What was he wearing?

24 A. An olive-grey uniform. I can't be more precise. But he was a

25 soldier because he was in a uniform and wearing a regular soldier's cap.

Page 24251

1 Q. Very well. Is it true that Ovcara in those days was under the

2 control of members of the TO and certain paramilitary units and not the

3 JNA?

4 A. I can't know that, but we were commanded after all by members of

5 the former JNA.

6 Q. Who did you see commanding?

7 A. That man with the whistle. And he had a command role, in my

8 assessment and judgement.

9 Q. Did you see Major Sljivancanin anywhere at Ovcara?

10 A. No. I didn't even know him. Only later on from the media I saw

11 who he was. I didn't see him there.

12 Q. So you didn't see him.

13 A. No, I didn't. At least I didn't know him, and I didn't notice

14 him.

15 Q. Since you managed to escape from the truck, in the village of

16 Trznice the next day you were again arrested by a group of five of what

17 you call Chetniks. Page 7, paragraph 5.

18 A. What did you mean when you said Trznice? The village of Trznice

19 does not exist. What paragraph are you referring to, what page? You have

20 erroneous information.

21 Q. On -- it is on page 7, paragraph 5. I can't find it right away,

22 but I can't lose any more time. I'm just noting that's where it is. Is

23 it true that they didn't beat you either own though you admitted after

24 some time that you were a fugitive?

25 A. They didn't, but they took me to their headquarters where I was

Page 24252

1 beaten.

2 Q. And then those men later on handed you over to regular military

3 policemen, as you call them. I assume they were regular JNA members.

4 A. Yes, some kind of military police.

5 Q. And is it true that from there JNA members transferred you to Sid

6 and from there to the military prison if Belgrade?

7 A. Yes. First they beat me up well in the basement and then they

8 interrogated me. I testified being handcuffed to the radiator and then

9 the next day with several other prisoners, members of the National Guards

10 Corps probably, I was transferred to Sid. After Sid, to Mitrovica.

11 Q. You said that no one touched you at the military prison in

12 Belgrade; is that right?

13 A. Yes, right.

14 Q. You said that before you reached the military prison they beat you

15 and brutally I think is what you said.

16 A. Yes. But this happened on a number of occasions. I was all black

17 and blue from the beating. And the military policemen beat me most at

18 Stari Jankovci.

19 Q. Would you lease look - I won't put it on the ELMO because the

20 witness is protected, but look here, I have a list of photographed

21 convicted persons at the military court in Belgrade and there under

22 certain number, I won't even mention the number, but page will be open for

23 you to see it, under the next number is -- first you, then another person

24 you mention with you. Then again further on there is here quite a number

25 of persons from a list. I have 31 here on the list. Photographs of

Page 24253

1 persons convicted at the military Tribunal in Belgrade.

2 So please check whether this is you and your colleague. You can

3 look at the photographs of the others too, if you wish, and please tell

4 me, do you recognise anyone from those photographs?

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 A. Caki. Yes, yes.

15 Q. Do you know anyone else from that list and from those photographs

16 of those convicted by the military Tribunal?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. Tell me, when were those photographs taken, as soon as you arrived

19 at the military Tribunal?

20 A. Not straight away but very shortly after that.

21 Q. When you arrived at the Tribunal.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Look closely at the photographs and tell me whether on any one of

24 you any injuries are visible, since you said that they beat you on the

25 head, et cetera. Are there any visible injuries on any one of you,

Page 24254

1 because the photographs were taken in the Tribunal after these things

2 happened to you.

3 A. If you wanted to see what we looked like, you should obtain

4 photographs -- you should have shown photographs taken in Sremska

5 Mitrovica.

6 Q. Very well, 1171, but these photographs were taken immediately

7 after you arrive at the military Tribunal in Belgrade. So look at all the

8 photographs of all those persons, and there are 31 of them. Are there any

9 visible injuries on any one of them?

10 A. Do you know when I arrived at the military investigating prison?

11 Do you know when I reached it? How much time had gone by from the moment

12 I was captured, do you know that?

13 Q. Several days?

14 A. No, several months. I was detained far before I ever reached the

15 military investigating prison.

16 Q. All right. Well, we can compare those dates?

17 A. Yes, we can indeed.

18 Q. Let's just clear up one more point. I asked you when we were

19 speaking about the Serb facilities in Vukovar which were destroyed with

20 the anti-armoured devices that we mentioned, I asked you whether anybody

21 had shot at those facilities prior to that, and your answer was no.

22 Now, is there any doubt that the facilities that were destroyed

23 and whose proprietors were Serbs, that they couldn't have represented a

24 military target of any kind?

25 A. Well, it's difficult for me to comment, nor do I know what

Page 24255

1 facilities you're referring to or what period of time. It's not up to me

2 to bring a judgement about that.

3 Q. Well, I didn't read from the list the catering establishments, the

4 names of the catering establishments because I didn't want to jeopardise

5 your identity, but you had the documents in your hands, and you were able

6 to see that the month we were discussing was October.

7 JUDGE MAY: We've been over this -- we've on over it, and it

8 doesn't seem any point going back to it now. We've her the witness's

9 answers and he can't say any more than he has done. If you've got some

10 evidence about it, Mr. Milosevic, you can call it in due course.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, Mr. May.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Just answer one more question for me, please, Mr. 1171. Do you

14 have any information as to how many Serbs you personally killed?

15 A. I never killed a single Serb, so that is absolutely absurd, and

16 the question is improper too.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. So you said civilians were killed from -- as a result of the

20 devices that you positioned in Vukovar yourself?

21 A. They were soldiers who attacked the town. Those were the ones who

22 were killed. And that has nothing to do with my actions as a private

23 person but as part of the military operations.

24 Q. I'm talking about the devices you planted in the civilian parts of

25 town predominantly inhabited by Serbs?

Page 24256

1 JUDGE MAY: The witness has already dealt with this, and your time

2 is now up.

3 Mr. Tapuskovic, have you got any questions? Just five minutes,

4 please.

5 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'll hurry up.

6 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, do you have the statement of the 14th of

8 June in front of you?

9 A. Just a moment, please.

10 Q. What did you say?

11 A. Just a moment. Let me have a look. Give me a moment to find it.

12 Q. Could you look at page 3, the last paragraph there or, rather, the

13 penultimate paragraph begins with the word "Major." And I'm just going to

14 deal with your entrance into the hospital and the incident with the truck.

15 You don't have to explain anything else to Their Honours.

16 Have you found it?

17 A. Yes, "Major."

18 Q. Right. Before you entered the hospital, you said you noticed a

19 Major and the insignia he had. He seemed to you to be an officer, "And I

20 remember his face and I'm quite certain that I would recognise him from a

21 photograph or if I saw any records of him." Is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Then you go on to say: "It appeared that that man was in command

24 of everything and issued orders." Is that right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 24257

1 Q. And that man wasn't Sljivancanin?

2 A. No, it wasn't. Quite definitely not.

3 Q. Now look at the other page. "During at that stage I did not see a

4 single person using force of any kind." Is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Right. And then the last sentence after that it says: "The

7 soldiers weren't there for a long time. When I decided to go into the

8 hospital." That means at the point you entered the hospital there were no

9 soldiers there any more?

10 A. That's not true. The soldiers had taken over the hospital space

11 and from that point in time they were in the hospital all the time. And

12 they provided security outside the hospital, and nobody was allowed

13 entrance. They controlled everything that went on there and the comings

14 and goings.

15 Q. But you yourself went into the hospital?

16 A. I was in the hospital all the time. We're speaking about the

17 hospital compound, but I spoke about the hospital building.

18 Q. I'm trying to get through what I have. You said, "I went to the

19 basement and joined my men there who were wounded and in the hospital.

20 A. Yes. That's the hospital building in the basement of the hospital

21 building. But what I'm talking about happened in the hospital compound,

22 outside the actual hospital building. Perhaps that's where the

23 misunderstanding lies.

24 Q. All right. Now, you describe how you fled from the truck, and you

25 gave a statement to the organs of the Croatian -- or, rather the Croatian

Page 24258












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 24259

1 authorities. I have the statement. It was served on me by the

2 Prosecution. Could you now have a look at it and especially the portion

3 where you say the following: "I sat at the back of the truck. There were

4 no guards in the truck, so before we arrived at our destination, I was

5 able to jump off the truck."

6 Could you have a look at that passage, please?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, in your statement and what do you find to challenge there?

9 A. Well, you didn't mention a guard. The guard was the co-driver.

10 Q. He wasn't at the back.

11 Q. But you didn't say there were any guards in the truck there?

12 A. Not in the back part where the detainees were, but of course there

13 was a guard. He opened the truck for us and then went to sit next to the

14 driver. So he was there to provide security.

15 Q. Well, you said that when the investigators asked you, but you

16 didn't mention that in that statement.

17 A. All right. Maybe I didn't describe it that way or perhaps I

18 wasn't legally clear enough in legal terms, but I'm repeating it now and

19 you'll be able to get an image and picture of what actually happened.

20 Q. Can you explain this to me: You said that the truck veered off

21 left into a field and that it ran at 10 to 20 kilometres an hour.

22 A. Well, how fast truck was going I can't say. That's my assessment.

23 Q. And then you say somebody warned you and said, "They'll kill us

24 all. And then it was only you who jumped out when the truck was moving at

25 a speed of 10 kilometres?

Page 24260

1 A. No, that wasn't me. Somebody wanted to jump off the truck but the

2 others stopped him and prevented him from jumping off.

3 Q. Thank you, Witness.

4 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

5 Re-Examined by Mr. McKeon:

6 Q. Sir, you mentioned that the person who -- the JNA soldier who was

7 helping load you onto the truck was wearing a regular soldier's cap.

8 Could you describe the cap that he was wearing.

9 A. Well, it was an army cap of the former JNA. The kind the former

10 JNA wore. It was olive-green in colour with the five-pointed star up in

11 the front. I don't know how to describe it in other terms.

12 Q. You were asked some questions about injuries that may be shown on

13 this photograph. Did you suffer any bruises or injuries from the beatings

14 that you described you received at Sremska Mitrovica; and if so, on what

15 part of your body were those bruises?

16 A. The bruises were all over my body, but I was all black and blue on

17 my head because I was kicked with a boot when I was being transferred from

18 Sid to Mitrovica. Not just me but everybody else. We were all kicked

19 directly in our -- in the head, and that's when they knocked my teeth out.

20 And I was black and blue all over, so I looked like a raccoon. I was all

21 black and blue. And my body was already black and blue because they -- I

22 received the bruises in Stari Jankovci when two soldiers, members of the

23 military police with white belts beat me up so badly that I was all black

24 and blue, covered in bruises and found it difficult to move at all.

25 And they took a photograph of me in Sremska Mitrovica, and there

Page 24261

1 is photographic evidence there, if it hasn't gone off somewhere else. But

2 there's a picture of me looking like I did at the time.

3 Q. And how long was it between the time that that photograph was

4 taken and you received this beating and this photograph you were shown was

5 taken in the Belgrade prison?

6 A. Well, at least two to three months.

7 Q. You mentioned that you received bruises in Stari Jankovci from two

8 soldiers, members of the military police with white belts. Was it one of

9 those military policemen who asked you about what you knew about Ovcara?

10 A. No. Nobody asked me much of anything over there and not that

11 detailed. They just beat us to beat us up. The reason wasn't important,

12 who or what.

13 Q. When you were in Sremska Mitrovica, were you asked to sign or

14 write out a written statement describing your activities laying mines?

15 A. Yes, they did ask that.

16 Q. And as part of that, did you draw a diagram for them showing them

17 where mines were laid to assist in demining the area?

18 A. Correct. Everything I was able to recollect to help them in a

19 way, to help them locate the position of the mines which I and my soldiers

20 laid, and that's what I did.

21 MR. McKEON: Your Honour, I have no further questions other than

22 making a brief submission on this Exhibit D161. That's all I have.

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, make your submission about this, yes.

24 MR. McKEON: Yes, Your Honour. We would object to this coming

25 into evidence because, first of all, there's no --

Page 24262

1 JUDGE MAY: Mr. McKeon, let me interrupt you. We have only marked

2 it for identification. We have not admitted it, for the reasons which you

3 have raised. Now, let's have the document. You can have a look at it.

4 MR. McKEON: I have looked at it, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE MAY: All right. If you want to make further investigation,

6 you can. If you don't, it remains marked for identification, but it

7 remains in that way until it's proved and admitted.

8 MR. McKEON: Thank you, Your Honour. Then I have nothing further

9 to add.

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Witness C-1171, thank you for coming back to the

11 Tribunal to give your evidence again. It's now concluded, and you are

12 free to go. Would you just wait a moment while the blinds are put down.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. May I ask a question, please?

14 JUDGE MAY: What is it, and I'll --

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have an indictment from a court in

16 Belgrade charging me, and I'd like to show it to you, and I have what was

17 published in the press in that regard.

18 JUDGE MAY: What I suggest is you speak to Mr. McKeon about it

19 afterwards, and if it -- he thinks it should go in, then he can apply to

20 put it in on Monday. He can draw it to our attention. We'll deal with it

21 in that way.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you very much.

23 JUDGE MAY: We will adjourn now until Monday morning.

24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.30 p.m.,

25 to be reconvened on Monday, the 14th day of July,

Page 24263

1 2003, at 9.00 a.m.