Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 26702

1 Tuesday, 16 September 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

7 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Your Honour.


9 Examined by Mr. Ierace [Continued]:

10 Q. Mr. van Lynden, yesterday reference was made to the shelling of

11 the city in early June 1992 and the filming of that shelling by your team

12 from the upper floors of the state hospital. How far from the hospital

13 were the Unis towers?

14 A. A couple of hundred metres at most.

15 MR. IERACE: Your Honour, I ask the witness be shown a video clip,

16 which is tab 5.3.

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

18 [Videotape played]


20 Q. At one stage during that story we saw --

21 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment, Mr. Ierace.

22 MR. IERACE: Yes.

23 JUDGE MAY: I have to say that the monitors which we have are

24 completely invisible. We cannot go on in this way and something has to be

25 done about it. I'm going to tell the Registry that we cannot have a trial

Page 26703

1 in which the Trial Chamber cannot see what is on the monitor.

2 Now, I don't know what's to be done. I'm going to make some

3 inquiries now.

4 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

5 JUDGE MAY: Can you see anything, Baron, there?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is very dark, Your Honour,

7 indeed, because certainly the early shots in that story were daylight, and

8 it looks like it's in the middle of the night.

9 JUDGE MAY: The point is this, that the evidence loses all its

10 impact.

11 MR. IERACE: Yes, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE MAY: I don't know why it can't be done. I don't

13 understand.

14 MR. IERACE: The only suggestion I could make for today's purposes

15 is to indicate which video clips I would otherwise have shown and for the

16 Bench to view those in Chambers and questions to be asked as to their

17 content after that.

18 Your Honour, perhaps another suggestion: We don't have a problem

19 with our monitor at the bar table. I wonder if there was a short

20 adjournment we might receive some technical assistance and adjust the

21 monitors on the Bench, in particular the contrast, to maximise the picture

22 that they're capable of producing.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: How many clips do you have, Mr. Ierace?

24 MR. IERACE: Four altogether, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE KWON: It's the angle of the monitor.

Page 26704

1 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Your Honour.

2 [Prosecution counsel confer]

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Ierace, some improvement might be made. Judge

5 Kwon helpfully suggests a change in the monitor. Certainly it's a bit

6 clearer. But of course the result is that one cannot see the rest of the

7 court. An absurd situation. But in any event, we can't waste time. What

8 we can do is to view these clips in due course in Chambers. We will play

9 them now and try and see what we can, and if anything arises from it, as I

10 say, we can view them in due course, which we will do. Yes.


12 Q. Baron, in that clip you were seen facing the camera. Were you in

13 the upper stories of the state hospital at that point?

14 A. I was on the top floor of the hospital.

15 Q. There was some footage as well of some patients. Do you know

16 where that footage was taken?

17 A. Taken in the Kosevo hospital, the main academic hospital of

18 Sarajevo, the following morning.

19 Q. And as best as you are able, when was that story filmed?

20 A. At the beginning of June 1992, the 5th or 6th or 7th of June. I

21 don't recall the precise date, but it was in the early days of June, after

22 the evacuation by the Yugoslav army from the Marsal Tito barracks.

23 MR. IERACE: Your Honour, I ask that video clip tab 2 now be

24 screened.

25 [Videotape played]

Page 26705

1 MR. IERACE: In yesterday's summary of your evidence --

2 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Ierace, I must, having complained earlier, there

3 is an improvement, at least as far as my monitor is concerned, but let's

4 go on.


6 Q. In yesterday's presentation of your evidence on an earlier

7 occasion, reference was made to an incident when you were driving along

8 the Marsal Tito Boulevard and observed a high-rise apartment block come

9 under fire. Does the footage we've just viewed relate to that incident?

10 A. It does.

11 Q. Reference was also made to an observation by you that the

12 incendiary rounds continued to hit the building at a lower level than the

13 firemen were as they attempted to put out the fire. Did you draw any

14 conclusions from your observations in that regard?

15 A. Yes, I did. I felt that what was being done was that the civilian

16 services, the fire services, were themselves being targeted. Having

17 reached the fires in the upper stories of that building, fires were then

18 caused by the incendiary rounds in the lower stories, and my conclusion

19 was that they were trying to trap the firemen at the top of the building.

20 Q. When was that footage filmed?

21 A. On the 5th of December, 1992.

22 MR. IERACE: I ask the witness now be shown tab 5.9, a further

23 video clip.

24 [Videotape played]


Page 26706

1 Q. As best as you recollect, when was that footage shot?

2 A. In September 1992.

3 Q. Whereabouts was the Jewish cemetery in relation to the

4 confrontation lines between the warring parties?

5 A. It was a sort of no man's land between the warring parties, right

6 on the front lines.

7 Q. In the last minute or so of that story we appeared to see the view

8 available through a space in a Serb position, a Bosnian Serb position; is

9 that correct?

10 A. It is.

11 Q. The camera appeared to show successive telephoto shots of what

12 could be seen through that space; is that correct?

13 A. It is.

14 Q. What is the area of the city that one could see through that

15 space?

16 A. Marin Dvor square, the heart of the city where the Holiday Inn

17 hotel is, the parliament, that area of the town. And the Unis towers were

18 also clearly visible. That had been shown in the first story that you

19 showed, then burning, by that stage of course destroyed, because this was

20 later.

21 Q. Now, at any stage in 1992, did you interview General Ratko Mladic?

22 A. I did, in September 1992.

23 Q. Whereabouts did that interview take place?

24 A. The interview itself took place at an artillery position to the

25 east of Sarajevo overlooking the city.

Page 26707












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Page 26708

1 Q. Was the interview recorded on film or video?

2 A. It was.

3 MR. IERACE: Your Honour, I ask that we now see video clip tab

4 5.8.

5 [Videotape played]


7 Q. And that was the video of the interview; is that correct?

8 A. Yes, that's correct.

9 Q. During your narration, you referred to the General saying that he

10 held the city in his palm.

11 A. Uh-huh.

12 Q. Did he say that to you or someone else?

13 A. No. He said that as we were walking there but when the cameraman

14 was not actually filming him and me, and it was translated to me by the

15 local producer I had with me. Apart from that, he actually tapped the

16 palm of his hand.

17 Q. When you were living in the upper floors of the state hospital and

18 made observations of shelling of the city, had you ever seen any rounds

19 appear to emanate from that part of the city surrounds?

20 A. From the Bosnian side towards the Serb side?

21 Q. Yes.

22 A. I did not see any, no. We were there up all night, night after

23 night, and we did not see anything emanating from the places -- any fire

24 emanating from the places around us.

25 Q. Had you seen any fire appearing to come from that area, that is

Page 26709

1 the area where you conducted this interview?

2 A. Yes, and we actually filmed it on one occasion in the late

3 afternoon, early evening, again at the beginning of June 1992. Rocket

4 fire, multiple rocket launcher fire. And as far as I'm aware, I was taken

5 to that precise position when I did the interview with General Mladic.

6 This is to the east of Sarajevo.

7 Q. Yes. Do you recall what the rockets hit, if anything, in the

8 city?

9 A. They appeared not to be aimed at one particular target, and we

10 have footage of those rockets hitting the city, and these -- initially in

11 the eastern half of the city. Only later did the fire become more

12 concentrated on the Marsal Tito barracks, which had been evacuated. But

13 while there was concentrated fire on the Marsal Tito barracks, there was

14 also fire all across the city which was not just at one particular point

15 but spread all over the city. So not at one particular target but simply

16 targeting the city as a whole.

17 Q. All right. Did you interview Dr. Karadzic from time to time?

18 A. Yes. I met Dr. Karadzic on several occasions. At the London

19 conference in August 1992, in Belgrade at the beginning of September 1992,

20 and then in Pale repeatedly in September 1992, including several long

21 meetings of three or four hours in the evenings. And the last time that I

22 met him was in February 1994 when I made my last visit to Pale.

23 Q. Had Dr. Karadzic ever expressed to you off camera his views as to

24 the nature of the Bosnian Serbs' claim on Sarajevo?

25 A. During the various conversations I had with him in Pale in

Page 26710

1 September 1992, he repeatedly said that basically the whole city belonged

2 to the Serbs, that it was all Serb territory. He had many maps on his

3 desks, and he appeared to have coloured them in as to what was Serb land

4 and what was non-Serb land, but Sarajevo he considered to be completely

5 Serb, and he said that repeatedly. He also made one remark, saying,

6 "Well, maybe we will have to compromise, but we cannot live with those

7 people." And then he made a comment that surprised me and shocked me,

8 because he said, "A wall should be built through Sarajevo." And you must

9 remember that this was less than three years after the fall of the Berlin

10 wall, a moment in which I think generally around the world everybody

11 rejoiced that a city that had been divided in such a cruel manner had

12 finally become one again, and now Dr. Karadzic was suggesting that a new

13 wall should be built. I was pretty outraged by the suggestion.

14 Q. Did he ever explain to you his attitude towards Bosnians of the

15 Muslim faith?

16 A. He did in a rather crude manner. He basically said that they were

17 not Slavs and that they were Turks and made various crude remarks as to

18 why he believed that was the case.

19 Q. Did you ever interview Slobodan Milosevic?

20 A. I did. At the end of July 1991, during the war in Croatia, I was

21 granted an interview with Mr. Milosevic.

22 Q. Did he ever express to you, off camera, any views that he held as

23 to the political situation in the region at the time?

24 A. We held the interview which, as I recall, lasted something like 40

25 minutes. Certainly more than 30 because the cameraman had to change tapes

Page 26711

1 and the tapes in the betacam camera lasted 30 minutes, so it lasted around

2 40 minutes. Mr. Milosevic then invited me into another room to share a

3 glass of whisky with him, and there there were no more cameras so this was

4 not part of the official interview and we had a more relaxed discussion.

5 And then he said, "You must understand that we Serbs are being threatened"

6 by what he called a papist German Fourth Reich, an Islamic fundamentalist

7 conspiracy against the Serb people, which he said was led by Hans Dietrich

8 Genscher, the then German foreign minister.

9 Q. Did you form any view, when you heard those comments, as to what

10 his ultimate intentions might be?

11 A. Well, apart from finding it slightly ludicrous that the Vatican is

12 put together with Islamic fundamentalists, it was an indication both to me

13 and to the producers who were with me - and these are local producers -

14 that the intention was, it seemed to us, to take the war from Croatia into

15 Bosnia and into Kosovo once the war in Croatia had been finished in a

16 manner that the Serbs wanted it done.

17 Q. In relation to Kosovo, either on or off camera, did you question

18 him as to his attitude towards Kosovars?

19 A. During the interview - this is the actual interview on camera -

20 Mr. Milosevic did his best, and did a pretty good job at it, of basically

21 evading my questions. But when I put it to him that while he demanded

22 certain rights for the Serb minority in Croatia, he had behaved in

23 precisely the opposite manner when it came to the Albanian population in

24 Kosovo. They -- this had been an autonomous province with its own member

25 of the Federal Presidency of Yugoslavia, and the rights of the Albanian

Page 26712

1 majority in Kosovo had, under President Milosevic's rule of Serbia, been

2 taken away, and I said that these two -- that, you know it didn't fit, you

3 couldn't ask for one thing and take it away from somebody else elsewhere.

4 It was the only moment during the interview that Mr. Milosevic became a

5 little angry, and he made it very clear that Kosovo was Serb in his

6 opinion, that it would remain Serb, and that the two issues in his opinion

7 were not linked.

8 Q. All right. Now, in 1994, following the Markale market incident in

9 early February, did you spend any time in Sarajevo or on the Bosnian Serb

10 side in Sarajevo?

11 A. When the massacre occurred, I was in Central Bosnia. To drive

12 from Central Bosnia into Sarajevo, you have to cross Serb lines, and it

13 was made clear to our bureau chief in Belgrade who came down to Pale that

14 the Bosnian Serb leadership would not allow me to cross immediately into

15 Sarajevo. It wanted me to come to Pale first. So that's what we did.

16 We sent a -- Sky News sent another team into Sarajevo itself and I

17 went to Pale and spent the first couple of weeks after the massacre in

18 Pale during which NATO, of course, gave its first ultimatum to the Serbs

19 which led to the 20-kilometre exclusion zone for heavy weaponry around

20 Sarajevo.

21 Q. Did you become aware of any indications of Serb solidarity in the

22 face of the aftermath of the Markale massacre as you call it?

23 A. Yes. We were told that Vojislav Seselj, the extreme nationalist

24 leader in Belgrade had come down to Pale, but I did not personally see

25 him, but we were told by people within the Bosnian Serb Presidency, and I

Page 26713












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Page 26714

1 personally witnessed that Milan Martic, who was then the leader of the

2 Serbs in Croatia came to Pale and together with Radovan Karadzic inspected

3 a guard of honour in the snow outside what was the Bosnian Serb Presidency

4 in Pale.

5 Q. Were you ever given any information as to whether there were any

6 meetings that took place from time to time between Dr. Karadzic,

7 General Mladic, and Mr. Milosevic?

8 A. Yes. It was clear that they were meeting during the London

9 conference. And when I met Dr. Karadzic in the Intercontinental Hotel in

10 Belgrade in September 1992 prior to going down to Pale, he told me that he

11 was there also to meet Mr. Milosevic. From other sources both in Pale and

12 in Belgrade, I was told that there were regular meetings between the two

13 men, sometimes with General Mladic present, sometimes not. I was also

14 told that there were meetings just between General Mladic and

15 Mr. Milosevic.

16 Q. You referred earlier to conversations that you had with

17 Dr. Karadzic and interviews indeed that you conducted with him. Was he

18 ever forthcoming about the content of the meetings that he had with

19 Mr. Milosevic?

20 A. No, he wasn't. We did ask him on various occasions what he

21 thought Mr. Milosevic thought of any particular development, and he told

22 us that he couldn't talk about such matters.

23 Q. All right. Did you understand that at some stage during the

24 conflict an embargo was placed by Serbian authorities on the movement of

25 goods from Serbia into Bosnian Serb territory?

Page 26715

1 A. Yes, I am aware.

2 Q. As best as you recollect, when was that?

3 A. April, May 1993.

4 Q. Did you make any observations as to whether the embargo was

5 carried out, and if so, what were those observations?

6 A. Yes. This is the period after the Bosnian Serb parliament had

7 rejected the Vance-Owen Peace Plan for Bosnia, and the Bosnian Serbs then

8 organised a referendum on the decision of the Bosnian Serb parliament. My

9 understanding was that Mr. Milosevic had ordered an embargo to prove his

10 anger with the Bosnian Serb parliament for not following his advice and

11 accepting the Vance-Owen peace plan and that he had ordered an embargo of

12 oil and fuel in particular. An embargo within an embargo, because Serbia

13 at that stage was under an UN embargo. But when we drove into northern

14 parts of Eastern Bosnia, we went to a village called Janja and we went

15 into the town of Bijeljina, we saw at various points trucks of various

16 sizes still entering Serb-held parts of Bosnia from Serbia proper. We

17 also saw oil tankers going in, petrol tankers going in. So therefore,

18 leaving us the conclusion that the embargo was one in name only and wasn't

19 being really upheld, and it was an open joke later on in Belgrade that of

20 course this was not really happening but that this was a political move to

21 try and prove something to the international community.

22 Q. All right. Reference was made yesterday in terms of your earlier

23 evidence to you covering the conflict in Croatia in 1991. Did you notice

24 any similarity between uniforms that you saw in 1991 outside Sarajevo and

25 those that you saw being worn by Bosnian Serb forces around Sarajevo in

Page 26716

1 1992?

2 A. I wasn't in Sarajevo in 1991.

3 Q. No. When you were in Sarajevo or at least on Bosnian Serb-held

4 territory in 1992 and made observations as to the uniforms, how did those

5 uniforms compare to those worn by soldiers that you'd seen in 1991?

6 A. They were the same. The only thing was that there was now a cap

7 badge which had the colours of Serbia, white, blue and red. But the

8 uniforms were absolutely identical.

9 Q. Were you in Vukovar in 1991?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Whilst there, did you meet any JNA officers?

12 A. Yes, I did. I met a number officers, including -- I think he was

13 then a major, I think he's now a colonel, Sljivancanin. I've probably

14 mispronounced the name. My excuses for that. And the last few days of

15 the siege we spent all our time with a unit of the 1st Armoured Brigade of

16 the Guards, and there there were a number of officers, including one

17 called Mladen Maric.

18 Q. All right. Did you receive any information as to whether any of

19 those officers later surfaced in the context of the conflict in Sarajevo?

20 A. Yes. We spent quite some time with Mladen Maric and indeed even

21 went out to dinner in Belgrade with him and some of his men after the fall

22 of Vukovar, and in June 1992, my producer who had been with me in Vukovar

23 told me that he had seen Mladen Maric at the Lukavica barracks on the edge

24 of Sarajevo in June 1992.

25 Q. What was your information, if any, as to the capacity in which he

Page 26717

1 was present in Lukavica?

2 A. He was there as an officer of the Yugoslav army. My understanding

3 was, from what I was told by my producer, that he and his unit, which were

4 just about the best units within the Yugoslav army, were there to try or

5 to prepare for a strike into Sarajevo, which we understood was a strike

6 towards the Marsal Tito barracks and to cut the city in two. That did not

7 go ahead because then an accord was reached and the Marsal Tito barracks

8 were evacuated.

9 My understanding of what happened to -- or he was then a captain,

10 a first captain in the Yugoslav army -- was that although he originally

11 came from Bosnia, he refused to become an actual member of the Bosnian

12 Serb army and returned to Serbia proper, and as far as I'm aware, he is

13 still in what is now the Serb army.

14 Q. All right. And was Marsal Tito barracks positioned at the

15 narrowest point of the valley floor?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, in autumn 1991, did you report on the conflict in the area

18 south of Dubrovnik?

19 A. I did.

20 Q. And was that in the vicinity of Cavtat.

21 A. Cavtat Yes, indeed. We flew into Montenegro. We had permission

22 from the Yugoslav army to accompany them up -- from Montenegro up the

23 coastal road that leads to Dubrovnik. We passed through several villages

24 that had been razed to the ground, and the forests in this area had also

25 been burnt and it was a sign to us that there was simply a scorched-earth

Page 26718

1 policy on the part of the Yugoslav army.

2 We passed the airport and then came to the outskirts of Cavtat,

3 which is a small town or large village with a natural harbour, and a very

4 beautiful place it is, and there there was still some shooting going on,

5 although I only saw fire from the Yugoslav army, including, somewhat to my

6 amazement, from a T-33 tank. This is tank of -- Soviet tank from the

7 Second World War.

8 We then followed the troops as they entered Cavtat. As I say, I

9 didn't see any sign of resistance but there may have been some before we

10 arrived. In the town we then spoke to some civilians, and we witnessed

11 that at least ten inhabitants of Cavtat were taken away by the Yugoslav

12 army.

13 Q. All right. You've said that you saw no signs of resistance from

14 the town. Did you see any steps taken to impede their advance further

15 north?

16 A. While we were in Cavtat, by the harbour there was an extremely

17 loud explosion. We couldn't immediately see what this was because there

18 were houses between us and the site of the explosion. When we got to

19 higher territory, we saw what we imagined had been an explosion caused by

20 the Croat forces to block the main coastal road leading further north from

21 Cavtat to Dubrovnik.

22 Q. The ten men, or the ten people you describe as civilians, what was

23 it that led you to the conclusion that they were indeed civilians?

24 A. Well, I spoke to one of them before he was taken away, in his bar.

25 He was -- he ran a bar. They were all in civilian clothes. We were given

Page 26719












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Page 26720

1 the names of all ten of them, which we wrote down, and after they were

2 taken away, and we got no more further information as to why they were

3 being taken away, I did a small report and handed it in to the

4 International Committee of the Red Cross in Belgrade that we had witnessed

5 these ten people - ten, it may be 11, it may be nine - and that's the last

6 I heard of it until I returned to Cavtat in 1994 and met the bar owner

7 again. He was still the owner of the bar, but he was a man in pretty bad

8 psychological state. He told me that he had been held for several months

9 and that he had been severely beaten up.

10 Q. Did you ever question any leaders of the Serb community as to the

11 reason for the attack on the wider Dubrovnik area?

12 A. While we were in Cavtat, two senior Yugoslav officers arrived

13 there. As I recall, one from the army and from the navy. We did speak to

14 them, but they wouldn't speak to us. They wouldn't answer our question as

15 to why this attack was being done, because this was not an area where

16 Serbs lived, nor is Dubrovnik a town where Serbs lived, apart from one or

17 two.

18 We never got an answer from other officers on that particular

19 trip. We also, of course, asked people in Belgrade as to why Dubrovnik,

20 one of the great cities, a pearl, and I suspect the best known, worldwide,

21 city from the former Yugoslavia was being attacked in this manner which we

22 felt was extremely detrimental to the Serb cause, and I never caught a

23 clear answer from anyone.

24 Q. Who was the most senior person that you recall posing that

25 question to?

Page 26721

1 A. Mr. Jovic, in -- who was a very close associate of Mr. Milosevic

2 in Belgrade.

3 Q. What was his response?

4 A. He gave no response. Again, he wouldn't answer the question. The

5 question was simple: "Why are you allowing the Yugoslav army to attack

6 Dubrovnik? What's the sense of this?" And he simply shook his head and

7 wouldn't answer the question. This was not in a formal interview, I

8 should add, Your Honours. We ran into Mr. Jovic during a conference and

9 managed to speak to him for a few minutes.

10 Q. In the same year as your observations in Dubrovnik, in the

11 Dubrovnik area in 1991, did you cover the conflict in the Banja area of

12 Croatia? In particular, did you enter the village of Struga?

13 A. I did.

14 Q. And was anything happening at around that time, either before or

15 after you entered that village that you observed?

16 A. As I recall, this was in July 1991. It was my first day in

17 covering the war that was going on in Croatia. We entered -- crossed from

18 Bosnia into Croatia very early in the morning, and we'd been told that

19 there had been fighting in this village called Struga, which lies close to

20 a larger village or small town called Dvor na Uni. We drove into Struga.

21 There we discovered a unit from the Yugoslav army who verified that there

22 had been a shooting going on, who told us, and this is a Serb officer who

23 I later encountered in Bosnia, that Serb militiamen had entered the

24 village of Struga during the night, from Friday to Saturday morning, and

25 indiscriminately opened fire on the houses.

Page 26722

1 As I recall, at least four villagers in Struga were killed. Most

2 of the rest of the population fled. Some of them had shot back because

3 two Serb militiamen had been killed.

4 The JNA officer told me that they had only been sent or only

5 arrived in Struga as a buffer between the two sides after the shooting was

6 over.

7 Q. What was your assessment as to that explanation by him as to his

8 presence?

9 A. Well, I mean, one -- I can't give a definitive explanation, but we

10 had a sense that there was some coordination between the Serb militia and

11 the JNA and that the arrival of the JNA so late, only when the fighting

12 had stopped and the militia had withdrawn, that the two were in touch with

13 each other. That was certainly also the opinion of the Croat villagers in

14 Struga.

15 Q. All right. If you're able to answer the following questions

16 fairly briefly because we are short of time. In that area did you come

17 across at all Captain Dragan?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Whereabouts was that?

20 A. I met him in Dvor na Uni on the same day that I had entered

21 Struga.

22 Q. Was that on one occasion or more than one occasion that you saw

23 him?

24 A. No. I met him on several occasions after that.

25 Q. Was one of those encounters after, as you understood it, he

Page 26723

1 carried out some arrests of some local Serb people?

2 A. That's right. Several days after this incident in Struga, we had

3 agreed to meet Captain Dragan in Dvor na Uni. When we arrived there, we

4 encountered him and he told us that he had arrested ten local Serbs for

5 what he said was butchering four Croat women in the clinic in Dvor na Uni.

6 Those Croat women had come from the village of Struga. And he said that

7 that kind of behaviour was unacceptable because it was the same kind of

8 behaviour that the Croats had used again the Serbs during the Second World

9 War and therefore that he had arrested them.

10 Q. What was the response of local Serbs to those arrests as you

11 understood it?

12 A. The situation was extremely tense. Captain Dragan, who had his

13 own militia based in the town of Knin, had put those militiamen around the

14 building in which he was holding these ten Serbs, and -- but there were

15 also villagers there who were clearly angry and who wanted those ten men

16 released.

17 Q. And what was the outcome of that incident?

18 A. Well, after several hours, a man who I didn't immediately

19 recognise but whom I was later introduced to as Milan Martic arrived, and

20 he ordered, during a rather heated argument between the two men, he

21 ordered Captain Dragan to release the ten Serbs and that's what Captain

22 Dragan did.

23 Q. Did you make any observations as to the command and control that

24 Captain Dragan exercised over his forces?

25 A. His forces seemed more disciplined and better trained than other

Page 26724

1 militiamen. They wore different uniforms. They were all in one uniform.

2 They had guns from various parts of the world, not just Kalashnikovs. He

3 was clearly in command of his men, but he clearly came under the command

4 of Milan Martic.

5 Q. Did you ask him how he was financed, where he received his

6 weaponry from, his support?

7 A. Well, one asks questions like that, but one doesn't always expect

8 an answer, and I didn't get one on that occasion.

9 Q. Did you ever ask him who ultimately was in charge in terms of his

10 operation?

11 A. I asked him who was in charge of what the Serbs were trying to

12 achieve, and his answer was Slobodan Milosevic.

13 MR. IERACE: Your Honour, that completes examination-in-chief of

14 this witness. Thank you.

15 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Ierace, I think we haven't admitted the package

16 including the transcript yet. 540?

17 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours.

18 MR. IERACE: I would be grateful for a number for all of that.

19 THE REGISTRAR: 540, Your Honours.

20 MR. IERACE: Thank you.

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

22 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

23 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. van Lynden, I should first of all like to ask

24 you to take a look at some footage together, some of the ones you brought.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But before we do so, Mr. May, I have

Page 26725












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Page 26726

1 received several of these CDs, and this one here where it says "van Lynden

2 Compilation," is empty. So I wasn't able to establish what was on that

3 CD, but that doesn't matter. I can still ask --

4 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- go ahead with my questions.

6 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Ierace, can you help us about that, please?

7 MR. IERACE: Your Honour, there have been some technical

8 difficulties in producing CDs of the video clips, but I'm surprised to

9 hear that there is still a problem. Perhaps if we could have access to

10 that CD, we could make some further inquiries.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let them have it back, Mr. Milosevic, and we'll

12 see what the problem is.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But regardless of that, there's

14 enough other material to be getting along with, so I can do without the

15 compilation, I assume.

16 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Mr. van Lynden, I have here this other CD. It says V0000870, and

19 000/0871. On your film -- actually that was footage by night, wasn't it,

20 showing the one we saw in 000870/1, that's the one I'm referring to.

21 JUDGE MAY: I don't think the numbers are going to help anybody,

22 but you can describe the clip you want to ask the witness about.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I think that as I've been

24 given very precise data from the CD, I don't know how I could use it

25 otherwise but by giving the numbers of that CD if I want to have it shown,

Page 26727

1 the clip shown. But with respect to this first question, it needn't be

2 shown because we all had a chance of seeing it, and the fact that the town

3 was shelled is not in dispute. We can see the incendiary bullets flying

4 around in different directions and so on.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. That's right, isn't it?

7 JUDGE MAY: Yes, we've seen it.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Tracer bullets.

9 THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of which story Mr. Milosevic is

10 referring to, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE MAY: Would you be specific, Mr. Milosevic. What are you

12 referring to?

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm referring to precisely the

14 footage on 0870/1 and the positions ranging from 000 to 00048, that

15 particular section and clip.

16 JUDGE MAY: Which of the clips that was shown? Is it the first

17 clip that was shown this morning?

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No. I'm talking about this other

19 CD, the one that was given me. The one we saw this morning, as you were

20 able to see, was quite invisible, actually.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. But my question is the following, Mr. van Lynden: Tell me,

23 please, was this an exchange of gunfire between the Muslim forces and the

24 Serb forces? Is that what it was about or was it just one-sided, fire

25 from one side, from the Serb positions, what you observed?

Page 26728

1 JUDGE MAY: The witness will not be able to say what you're

2 talking about. Let's see if we can get at it another way.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, in that case, I should like

4 you -- them to have this CD played, because I'm going to ask questions

5 pertaining to it.


7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You can put it in the machine over

8 there. The CD is 000/0870, and it also says V000871. That's the other

9 marking on it.

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

11 MR. IERACE: Your Honour, I note that clip 870 is 12 minutes and

12 15 seconds long. We can play it, of course, if it's required; and I

13 suspect that the second clip, 871, is of a similar length.

14 JUDGE MAY: Let us start by playing the first clip and then we

15 will see how we get on. If necessary, we can break into it.

16 Just a moment, Mr. Milosevic. Let us get on with this.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The first clip is from 000 to 00048.

18 [Videotape played]

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's up to 48. My question was --

20 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Yes. Go on now.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. My question is: Was this an exchange of fire or one-way shelling

23 of the town?

24 A. Firstly, I should explain that this is a half-hour compilation

25 that I did for the end of the year 1992 about the war in Bosnia as a

Page 26729

1 whole.

2 Secondly, the pictures of the shelling you see are all from the

3 early days of June 1992, after the evacuation of the Marsal Tito barracks,

4 and those pictures show only incoming fire to the Bosnian-held parts of

5 the Bosnian capital.

6 Q. Very well. Immediately after that on this same footage, up until

7 01:02 -- from where we stopped up to 01:02, we see daytime shots of a

8 coffee bar in Sarajevo, men having drinks. Was that the next day after

9 the battles, after these battles? Was that the following day?

10 A. No. Those were pictures taken not by my own crew but by other

11 crews, as far as I recall, prior to the war in Bosnia beginning.

12 Q. But they follow immediately after this footage of the shelling.

13 So that is why I assumed you filmed it after that.

14 Tell me, what is the date of what you showed on these clips?

15 JUDGE MAY: The witness has answered that somebody else --

16 somebody else filmed those clips.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. I would now like to ask you to move on on this same CD, 01:08.

20 Could you please stop the V000870/1. And we see citizens taking part in a

21 referendum. Could you show us that part of this clip; 01:08 from the

22 footage 0870/1.

23 [Videotape played]

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Will you stop there, please, and

25 turn it back to the poster for the referendum. Will you wind back the

Page 26730

1 tape to show the ballot paper. The poster that we saw for the referendum.

2 MR. IERACE: Your Honour --

3 [Videotape played]

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The poster, please. That one. Stop

5 there, please.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. What does it say here on this poster? We saw a moment ago it says

8 "referendumi", and on this ballot paper, as far as I can read it, it says

9 "letervoten." What language is this? In what language is this ballot

10 paper?

11 A. I can't read it.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Perhaps the interpreters can tell us

13 what language this is in. My impression is that these are shots from a

14 referendum at Kosovo.

15 JUDGE MAY: It's not for the interpreters to give evidence. It

16 may be that somebody can help as to what it is.

17 THE WITNESS: Your Honour.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

19 THE WITNESS: If I may try and explain. When this end of year

20 documentary was made, I was not actually there when it was edited, when

21 the pictures were put over my words. I was in Bosnia when I wrote this,

22 and the voice tapes, my voice tapes, were sent back to our office in

23 London and the pictures were put over. My understanding was that these

24 were pictures taken again by others, because I was not in Bosnia when the

25 referendum took place. And if these pictures are -- do not match my

Page 26731












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Page 26732

1 words, then I apologise, but I was not personally responsible because

2 others in London were responsible for that. But that's a possible

3 explanation as to why, if the two don't match.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. I understand your explanation, but the question of authenticity of

6 what is being shown arises, because obviously this is a shot of a

7 referendum in Kosovo. In Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Albanian language

8 could not have been used on the ballot paper.

9 A. That's possible. I'm not aware. I wasn't there with the editing.

10 And if that was so, then it was a mistake and not anything but a simple

11 mistake.

12 Q. I assume, Mr. van Lynden, that you are aware that prior to that

13 referendum and prior to the proclamation of independence of Bosnia and

14 Herzegovina at that referendum which was held without the participation of

15 the Serbs, there were no conflicts in Bosnia. I assume you know that.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Will you please look at position 01:20 from this same CD. I want

18 to ask you whether it is quite clear that it shows men on barricades.

19 01:20.

20 [Videotape played]

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. These are men on the barricades, are they not? Tell me, were they

23 Serbs who were armed and who erected these barricades or someone else?

24 A. I was informed that they were Serbs. Again, I was not present in

25 the city. This is an overview, a general overview of what happened in

Page 26733

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1992.

2 Q. In what part of town -- of the town of Sarajevo were these

3 barricades erected?

4 A. I didn't film this, so I wasn't there. So I couldn't tell you

5 with any precision.

6 Q. Will you please look at position 02:20 from the same CD, 02:20.

7 [Videotape played]

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 02:20, not 01:47. 02:20.

9 MR. IERACE: Your Honour, it's not possible with this software to

10 fast forward with the picture being visible on the screen. One was to get

11 and place the cursor where one anticipates it might be. So we'll do our

12 best.

13 [Videotape played]

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am asking you to fast forward, not

15 back. 02:20.

16 JUDGE MAY: We're going to have to deal with this better. Can we

17 simply play this compilation? I wonder if that would be the best and then

18 the accused can ask his questions. Is that going to be a possibility?

19 Because otherwise, we're never really going to get on.

20 MR. IERACE: It's easily done, Your Honour. It will take 12

21 minutes and 15 seconds to play it in its entirety.

22 JUDGE MAY: Well, play it on to the next part that he wants to ask

23 a question about.

24 [Videotape played]

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Stop it there, please.

Page 26734

1 JUDGE MAY: We're not -- just play it on until we get to the part

2 you want to ask a question about.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Stop here, please. Stop here,

4 please. I wanted the picture to remain on the screen, please, just to see

5 the still, please, so we can see what it is. Could you enlarge it a

6 little? A moment ago one could see quite clearly what it was.

7 MR. IERACE: That can't be done, Your Honour.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Two seconds prior to this, there was

9 a close-up of this same scene.

10 [Videotape played]

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Stop there, please. Freeze.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Are these JNA soldiers? What you describe as the evacuation of

14 the Marsal Tito barracks, but in fact it was a massacre that occurred

15 during the evacuation, when the column was attacked in Dobrovoljacka

16 Street at the beginning of May 1992?

17 A. You're confusing two different evacuations, Mr. Milosevic. There

18 was indeed some kind of an ambush and shooting in May 1992 at the

19 beginning with the evacuation of another barracks. I was not in the city

20 at that stage. I was in the city when the Marsal Tito barracks were

21 evacuated, and I am not aware of any JNA soldiers coming under fire then.

22 Again, these pictures were taken by other cameramen at a stage when I was

23 not in Sarajevo.

24 And once again, just to explain to Your Honours, this is a

25 compilation made over my words by editors who were not under my control

Page 26735

1 because I was working in Sarajevo at the time.

2 Q. Regardless of that, as you are providing the commentary for the

3 evacuation of the barracks and the ambush for JNA soldiers, the JNA was

4 leaving the barracks and there was an ambush in Dobrovoljacka Street?

5 JUDGE MAY: You have been told before you must not misrepresent

6 what the witness said. He said that on this occasion when the Marsal Tito

7 barracks were evacuated, there was no ambush and no soldiers were killed.

8 Now, that's what he said. You must pay attention to what he said and ask

9 your questions accordingly.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, Mr. May, but he also said

11 that during the previous evacuation there was an ambush that the soldiers

12 fell into and that a number of them were killed. And this was at the

13 beginning of May.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Isn't that right, Mr. van Lynden?

16 JUDGE MAY: That is what the witness said.

17 Q. Is it true, Mr. van Lynden, that up until then, there had been no

18 shelling of Sarajevo until that attack on the JNA? That is, up until the

19 beginning of May. Up until that event that took place at the beginning of

20 May, 1992.

21 A. As I said, I was not in the city beforehand, Mr. Milosevic. I

22 only arrived at the end of May 1992. I'm certainly aware of reports that

23 there was fighting in Sarajevo. As to the level of shelling, I can't

24 report about anything that I wasn't there for. I can tell you what

25 happened after I was in Sarajevo. But there was certainly fighting in

Page 26736

1 Sarajevo before that incident of the ambush of the soldiers leaving

2 another barracks.

3 Q. I didn't ask you whether there was fighting in Sarajevo. I asked

4 you whether there had been any shelling. Namely, I have in mind -- I am

5 not trying to confuse you. I have in mind a statement by General Nambiar,

6 and I'm sure you followed these things as you were a reporter, who said

7 that there had been no shelling before the 3rd of May when this massacre

8 occurred in Dobrovoljacka Street, that the shelling started after that.

9 A. I wouldn't argue with the general. If he said that, then -- I

10 mean, I wasn't in the city so I cannot say whether there wasn't or wasn't.

11 All I am aware is that there was fighting going on. So whether that was

12 with heavy shelling or not, but there was fighting going on.

13 Q. In any event, Mr. van Lynden, what you are showing, that is the

14 actual shelling, it dates to -- the date is June 1992. That means after

15 these events and the conflicts that occurred during the withdrawal from

16 the barracks. I think the date is not in dispute. Is that right?

17 A. As I've said, the pictures at the beginning of this story date

18 from the beginning of June 1992. I don't dispute those dates, nor do I

19 dispute this happened at the beginning of May, but again, I was not there

20 for that. But the pictures of the shelling that were shown do come after

21 that event indeed.

22 Q. You said this morning, describing the battles around the Jewish

23 cemetery, which you describe as no-man's land, that the fiercest battles

24 were held around the Jewish cemetery, on both sides of the Jewish

25 cemetery. Is that right?

Page 26737












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Page 26738

1 A. I was told both from the Bosnian side and from the Bosnian Serb

2 side when I visited those front lines that there had indeed been extremely

3 heavy fighting there. But the company commander who was shown, that I

4 accompanied earlier, in one of the earlier clips shown by Mr. Ierace, had

5 told me that at that stage that section, that front was quieter than it

6 had been before. And that conversation took place with that major in

7 September 1992.

8 Q. Yes, but I was referring to what you -- I noted down when you said

9 that the fiercest fighting was around the Jewish cemetery.

10 As you are testifying as a war reporter, the two sides were in

11 conflict there, were they not?

12 A. They were.

13 Q. So it wasn't a one-sided attack, but there was a conflict between

14 two sides and that was where the front line was. Isn't that right,

15 Mr. van Lynden?

16 A. There was fighting between two sides at the front at the Jewish

17 cemetery, certainly.

18 Q. Very well. On this CD of yours which is now in the machine, at

19 position 02:49, you can see Jusuf Juka Prazina being wounded and leaving a

20 building. I assume it's a hospital. Is that right?

21 A. I would have to see it, Your Honour, before I can say whether it

22 is Jusuf Prazina or not.

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

24 [Videotape played]

25 THE WITNESS: Yes, Mr. Milosevic, that is Jusuf Prazina. I'm not

Page 26739

1 sure that this shows him leaving a hospital. It shows him walking with

2 crutches on the street. I did once encounter Mr. Prazina during a visit

3 to the Kosevo hospital when he was having his wounds looked at, but he had

4 been wounded at the beginning of the war, prior to my arrival in Sarajevo.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Is it true that -- do you know that he was an infamous Sarajevo

7 criminal?

8 A. I'm not sure about the word "infamous," but I know that he was a

9 criminal. He admitted to me, and in the one story that I did about him I

10 said this in the text, that he had had at least five sentences to prison.

11 JUDGE KWON: Is he also called Juka?

12 THE WITNESS: He is. Yes, that was how he was known; Juka. His

13 official name was Jusuf Prazina, and as far as I'm aware, he was found

14 shot dead in Belgium in 1993.

15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. You made a whole story about him and showed him like some sort of

18 hero, a modern Robin Hood of Sarajevo, distributing toys and humanitarian

19 aid. Isn't that right, Mr. van Lynden?

20 A. I certainly did a story about him. Whether he is a hero in that

21 story or not is up to the viewer. I know from people who do not come from

22 the Balkans, who were surprised at this story that I had done, because I

23 had also said that in the early days of the war he's one of the principal

24 defenders of Sarajevo, and I make quite clear in the story that he was a

25 criminal, and they did not see this as me making him into some kind of a

Page 26740

1 hero. He did go around town and had the odd habit of opening the boot of

2 his car and handing toys to children. We'd simply filmed the reality.

3 Q. Tell me, are you aware of another rather unusual habit that he

4 had, and that is to kill Serbs around Sarajevo, apart from distributing

5 toys to children? It is by this other activity that Juka Prazina and his

6 criminals are known by.

7 A. I never saw him kill any Serbs in Sarajevo. Let me answer the

8 question. You asked me a question. I'll answer it.

9 I never saw him kill any Serbs. In amongst his men were Bosnian

10 Serbs. It wasn't a purely Muslim unit. There were also Croats in that

11 unit. And as far as that is concerned, his unit mirrored Sarajevan

12 society in 1992. I make no claims that he did not murder Serbs. All I'm

13 saying is that I did not witness it.

14 Q. I certainly believe you didn't see him do that, killing anyone,

15 but do you know, since yesterday you mentioned that you didn't get

16 permission to see prisons on the Bosnian side in Sarajevo, do you know how

17 many private and official prisons for Serbs there were in Sarajevo during

18 the time of those battles in and around Sarajevo?

19 A. No. I don't have any precise number.

20 Q. You don't have a precise number. I can understand that. But do

21 you have any idea regarding the number of those prisons, any kind of idea,

22 even a most vague one?

23 A. No. I can't give a figure. But, Mr. Milosevic, if I may just add

24 that while I asked the Bosnian authorities repeatedly throughout the war

25 to be given access to those prisons, I also did the same on the other side

Page 26741

1 of the front line and was only given access once to one prison.

2 When I visited both the Bihac enclave and the Gorazde enclave,

3 respectively in 1994 and 1993, I was given access to two prisons in both

4 those enclaves, but in Sarajevo no. I couldn't give you any figure. I

5 would just be guessing.

6 Q. So the Serbs did allow you to have access to two prisons with

7 prisoners of war; is that right?

8 A. To one prison and not with any prisoners of war. These were

9 people who had been arrested prior to the war in Hadzici in April 1992.

10 None of them ever fought.

11 Q. It was a regular prison, was it?

12 A. No, it was not. It was at Kula. It was not a regular prison.

13 The prisoners were forced to work. These were all civilians that had been

14 rounded up by the Serb authorities in Hadzici.

15 Q. But on the Muslim side they wouldn't let you see a single prison?

16 A. No, on the Bosnian side, both in the Gorazde enclave at the

17 beginning of 1993 and in the Bihac enclave in November-December 1994, I

18 was given access to prisons where I saw prisoners of war from the Bosnian

19 Serb side wearing uniform. I'm not saying that there were not other

20 prisons in Gorazde or Bihac - there may well have been - but I was given

21 access to one in each.

22 Q. Mr. van Lynden, look at position 04:43:16. 04:43:16.

23 [Videotape played]

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Does one see there crosses in several places? In fact, you show

Page 26742

1 funerals and the cries of Serbs and large scale funerals of Serbs. You

2 have this in several places in your features. Isn't that right,

3 Mr. van Lynden?

4 A. The pictures that have just gone by were pictures take in Dobrinja

5 at the beginning of July. This is on the outskirts of Sarajevo, by the

6 airport. Beginning of July 1992, where the siege within the siege was so

7 harsh that the people could only bury their dead at night and not in a

8 proper cemetery but by the roadside. What you saw there was a mixture of

9 Serb, Croat, and Bosnian Muslim dead, therefore buried under different

10 symbols, both crosses and non-crosses.

11 But, yes, I have also witnessed funerals on the Bosnian Serb side.

12 The one that sticks in my mind would be the one in Vlasenica in -- again

13 in September 1992, when, if I'm correct, 28 Bosnian Serb soldiers were

14 killed in the front lines somewhere around the Bosnian enclave of

15 Srebrenica. And that was indeed a mass funeral.

16 Q. That is the only mass funeral on the Serb side that you filmed.

17 Isn't that right, Mr. van Lynden?

18 A. As far as I can recall, yes, that's the only mass. I mean, I

19 filmed in Dvor na Uni back in July 1991 a funeral of two people. I filmed

20 various funerals in Belgrade in 1991, of soldiers who had been killed in

21 the fighting. But as far as a mass funeral is concerned, that's the only

22 one that I remember, yes.

23 JUDGE MAY: That may be a convenient moment. It's time for the

24 break.

25 Let me make two administrative announcements. We will give an

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Page 26744

1 oral ruling on the preparation of the Defence case at a convenient time

2 during the first session tomorrow, Wednesday, or if there is no convenient

3 time, before the first break.

4 Secondly, we will admit the statement of Witness B-1543 under Rule

5 92 bis, the witness meeting the various requirements; however, the witness

6 must be present for cross-examination.

7 We will adjourn now. Twenty minutes, please.

8 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

9 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

10 JUDGE MAY: We've considered, Mr. Milosevic, how long you should

11 have for cross-examination in all the circumstances of this case. We will

12 give you longer than the Prosecution had. There is a transcript also.

13 The upshot is we will give you another hour and ten minutes, if you

14 require it. If you don't, of course, we'll go on.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Mr. van Lynden, you explained that a part of the footage shown was

18 not taken by your crew, your team, but you took over other people's

19 footage and clips; is that right?

20 A. In this one story that you have been asking the Court to show,

21 that is correct. In this half hour that I wrote but was not present at

22 the editing of at the end of 1992, that is correct.

23 Q. All right. But the comments were yours, weren't they?

24 A. I wrote the script, yes.

25 Q. And in the script, did you write, for example, where you can see

Page 26745

1 the dead soldiers of the JNA, that they had in fact been killed? Did you

2 say that they were killed withdrawing without putting up any struggle from

3 Sarajevo, without any fighting? They were brutally killed on the

4 occasion. Did your script and comments run in that direction? I didn't

5 notice that you did.

6 A. I don't have the script in front of me, but I don't recall doing

7 so, no.

8 Q. So you didn't say that. And when showing the graves, you didn't

9 say that they were Serb graves as well, did you? You said a moment ago

10 that there were Serb, Muslim, and Croatian and I don't know what other

11 kind of graves you mentioned, but you didn't say these included Serb

12 graves, did you?

13 A. This is in relation to those graves in Dobrinja. They were

14 Bosnian graves, Bosnian Serb, Bosnian Croat, Bosnian Muslim. I didn't

15 have to say they included Bosnian Serb. And I should remember -- remind

16 you that this was on the Bosnian side of the front lines.

17 Q. Yes, but Serbs were killed there too, and you didn't deny that,

18 did you?

19 A. No, I don't deny that.

20 Q. Well, then, you're not commenting and saying that it was the

21 soldiers who were killed without any fighting and were pulled out, and the

22 Serb graves either.

23 Now, in your comments, in your commentary, do you distort the

24 actual image of what was going on in Sarajevo?

25 A. I don't think I did. Again, I have to point out to you that I was

Page 26746

1 not there when the pictures were put over my words. Therefore, I was not

2 even aware that the pictures that you showed earlier of JNA soldiers lying

3 dead in the streets were going to be put in over my words. I was working

4 in Sarajevo at the time.

5 Q. All right. But I assume that since you were a journalist and

6 since you lived for a time in Belgrade as well or, rather, stayed in

7 Belgrade for some time, that you knew full well that when it was a

8 question of the shelling of Sarajevo that Serbia from top level on several

9 occasions condemned the shelling of Sarajevo, but you say nothing about

10 that.

11 A. I am aware of those comments having been made, yes.

12 Q. Very well, Mr. van Lynden. Now, in paragraph 1 of your statement,

13 you say that you knew that in the course of 1991 and 1992, Sky News

14 broadcast on channel 3 of -- was broadcast over channel 3 of

15 Radio-Television Serbia; is that right?

16 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness, before answering, have a copy of the

17 statement.

18 THE WITNESS: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Not 24 hours a day, but I

19 believe up to 12 hours per day. I believe also this third channel was

20 only available within Belgrade or the larger Belgrade area. I don't think

21 it was available in the whole of Serbia.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. All right. How far it could be seen can be established, but it

24 was state Radio-Television Serbia television which broadcast your

25 programme both in 1991 and 1992, and that means that the viewers in

Page 26747

1 Serbia, which means those without satellite dishes, were able to follow

2 the Sky News programme direct and the reports, and therefore were able to

3 become acquainted with the contents of your reports and commentaries,

4 right, both in Croatia and Bosnia?

5 A. I'm not sure when it was stopped. I say in the statement up until

6 spring or summer of 1992. Certainly for the whole of 1991 it was shown in

7 Serbia. And correct me if I'm wrong, Mr. Milosevic, but I think that's

8 probably one of the reasons why the people in your office advised you to

9 give me interview in July 1991.

10 Q. Well, I don't know what the reason was, but I did give a number of

11 interviews. So I assume by the same token that the interview that you're

12 quoting was given that way too.

13 Now, do you agree that Radio-Television Serbia during the period

14 that you're talking about took over not only the information programme of

15 Sky News but also televised part of the CNN programmes, BBC, and other

16 world television channels? Do you remember that?

17 A. I do not remember that other channels were broadcast in a similar

18 fashion as Sky News was on the third channel, no. In 1989 when Sky News

19 first went on air, the man then running the third channel, a man called

20 Jaksa Scekic, went to London and made an agreement with the head of Sky

21 News whereby Yugoslav television could have access to Sky News pictures

22 and stories, and Sky News could have access to pictures from Yugoslav

23 television. It was this man, as far as I'm aware, Mr. Scekic, who saw to

24 it that Sky News was then broadcast what I think was 12 hours a day on the

25 third channel. I'm not aware of a similar arrangement with either BBC or

Page 26748

1 CNN. Whether excerpts from BBC or CNN were shown on Serb television is

2 possible, but I don't think they had a similar relationship as the one

3 between Sky News and Yugoslav television.

4 Q. Well, I have to say that I don't know about that arrangement

5 between Sky News, but I do know that Sky News was broadcast. Now, what

6 the arrangement was, I don't know, and it's not really important. But

7 doesn't it show quite clearly that there was no intention to create a

8 distorted picture of the events which could be seen on television by

9 viewers in Serbia in view of the fact that you could -- they had an

10 insight into different viewpoints, different reports by foreign television

11 stations about the events in Yugoslavia?

12 A. I would say that might be possible if people were watching the

13 third channel, but I would say that in my personal opinion, the evening

14 news on main the Serb television channels gave a very distorted picture as

15 to what was going on, firstly in the war in Croatia, and then in the war

16 in Bosnia.

17 Q. So on channel 1 the image was distorted, was it, and on channel 3

18 they gave an objective view by that same television network? Is that what

19 you're saying?

20 A. I'm saying that in my opinion when I watched and had translated to

21 me what went out on the main news bulletins of Serb television during

22 1991, 1992, and 1993 was indeed distorted. Sky News was broadcast on the

23 third channel, but the third channel didn't have its own news programme.

24 It showed Sky News in 1991, and I -- we imagined that when that was

25 stopped, it was done for the reason to stop people from getting an

Page 26749












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13 English transcripts.













Page 26750

1 alternative view, because what was then being shown on Sky News was very

2 different from what was being shown on the main television channel within

3 Serbia.

4 Q. Very well, Mr. van Lynden. In any case, it is not in dispute that

5 during 1991 and 1992, Sky News was televised over state television of

6 Serbia.

7 In paragraph 3, you mention an interview that you had with me at

8 the end of July and the beginning of August in 1991, and you place it in

9 that time period. That's when you say it was; is that right?

10 A. Yes, that's right. I don't remember the precise date, so it was

11 either the end of July or it was early August 1991.

12 Q. I don't remember either having granted you an interview, but I

13 probably did. Possibly I did. So anyway, in that connection, I would

14 like to ask you something. Do you have the footage of the interview

15 between you and me that we could take a look at? It was your interview,

16 so I assume you filmed it and have footage of that interview.

17 A. Footage --

18 Q. Or recording.

19 A. I don't have a personal recording in my personal possession, but

20 it is within the archives of Sky Television.

21 Q. All right, Mr. van Lynden, but don't you think the best testimony

22 about the interview would be the interview itself and then we wouldn't

23 need your words or my words to explain the substance of what I was saying

24 at the time during the interview?

25 A. I wouldn't argue with that, but I -- I mean, that's a question for

Page 26751

1 the Court to bring that tape.

2 Q. All right. But you as a journalist, don't you think that it would

3 be within the domain of fair play --

4 JUDGE MAY: This isn't a matter for the witness. If the tape is

5 available, no doubt it can be made available. But his evidence, you will

6 remember, really related to a conversation outside the main interview.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. All right. You say in paragraph 3: "I interviewed Slobodan

10 Milosevic. During the interview, he was highly critical of the Albanians

11 in Kosovo."

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So this does not refer, Mr. May, to

13 what Mr. van Lynden explained a moment ago as to what I said outside the

14 interview, but it refers to the interview itself.

15 JUDGE MAY: To explain the position, you ought to know by now

16 there is a distinction between a statement and oral evidence, and it was

17 to the oral evidence to which I was referring. But let us not waste time

18 on these sort of arguments. Yes.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Well, Mr. van Lynden, I assume you mean Albanian separatists in

21 Kosovo or Albanian terrorists in Kosovo, not Albanians as such, per se.

22 A. As I remember it, it was a comment about the Albanians per se,

23 because the question that I asked you was given the fact that you were

24 demanding that the Serb minority in Croatia were granted certain rights, I

25 then said, "But you are not granting those rights to the Albanian majority

Page 26752

1 in Kosovo," and it was at that point that you said that these two matters

2 could not be compared, that Kosovo was Serb, that it would always remain

3 Serb, and that the position of the Albanians could not be compared to the

4 position of the Serbs in Croatia. You didn't talk about -- as I recall,

5 about Albanian separatists or Albanian terrorists, you just mentioned

6 Albanians as a whole.

7 Q. Well, that can't be possible, because even in the year 2000,

8 Mr. van Lynden, in the Socialist Party of Serbia, whose president I was,

9 in the leadership, there was still Albanians there, even in the year 2000

10 let alone 1991. So these qualifications could not have referred to the

11 Albanians as a whole but it could have referred exclusively to Albanian

12 separatists. You don't know that?

13 JUDGE MAY: He's answered it.

14 THE WITNESS: I asked you a question. I remember it, of you

15 talking about the Albanians as a whole, Mr. Milosevic. If you remember it

16 in a different manner, I can't help that.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. I don't remember the interview at all, but I do know what I

19 thought at the time, and I know what I think today, and I assume that you

20 know that Yugoslavia was composed of nations, of ethnicities, and members

21 of ethnic minorities as well, and that the Serbs in Croatia had the status

22 of a nation, as they did in Yugoslavia and in Croatia and according to the

23 Croatian constitution, whereas the Albanians had the status of a national

24 minority or a nationality because they had their matrix state in Albania.

25 Was that the case or not, Mr. van Lynden?

Page 26753

1 A. That may well have been the case, but we are referring here to a

2 comment you made in an interview with me in 1999 in which you spoke about

3 the Albanians.

4 Q. In 1991, the Albanians were a national minority in Yugoslavia and

5 in Serbia, both pursuant to the constitution of Yugoslavia and the

6 constitution of Serbia. And I assume that you know that very well,

7 because you're a well-informed journalist.

8 A. I'm aware of that.

9 Q. And then you go on to say that after the interview I said that the

10 Muslim fundamentalists in Bosnia, and here you quote, "the Vatican

11 papists." Never in my life have I used the term "papist" so I don't know

12 how that term came to be used and I don't think you remember me having

13 used the word "papist" at all.

14 A. That is how I recall it.

15 Q. You mentioned a moment ago that I said that after the break-up of

16 Yugoslavia that Genscher and the Vatican were behind the break-up of

17 Yugoslavia. Is that right? That's what you said a moment ago.

18 A. [Previous translation continues]... together. You mentioned a

19 German Fourth Reich and you mentioned Islamic fundamentalists, all in the

20 same sentence, and said that this was a form of conspiracy against the

21 Serb people.

22 Q. You mentioned Genscher in your explanations. Isn't that right?

23 A. You mentioned Genscher and I was quoting you as I remember it.

24 Q. Very well. So you say that I mentioned Genscher; is that it?

25 A. Yes.

Page 26754

1 Q. Well, I have here a report from an open television programme, and

2 I asked the Slovenian president, Milan Kucan, a question in that regard,

3 who took part in that particular television programme, and it quotes part

4 of a statement made by the present Croatian president, Stjepan Mesic.

5 Literally I'm reading you the quotation verbatim: "The idea on the

6 break-up of Yugoslavia I wish to convey to those who had the strongest

7 influence on its destiny; Genscher and the Pope. With Genscher I had a

8 meeting three times, and he enabled me to have contacts with the Holy See.

9 The Pope and Genscher agreed with the complete break-up of Yugoslavia."

10 That's what Mesic said at the time in a television broadcast on

11 the 8th of November, 1995, in which Milan Kucan took part as well as some

12 other individuals.

13 JUDGE MAY: I'm going to stop you. As you know quite well the

14 witness cannot be asked general questions of that nature unless he has

15 some connection with it.

16 Have you ever come across, Baron, this interview of what

17 Mr. Mesic said?

18 THE WITNESS: No, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes. The next question.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. You used the term "papist" as if I had used it; is that right? As

23 far as I know, that expression is in usage in Great Britain. This is a

24 term I never used.

25 A. We spoke English with each other, Mr. Milosevic, as you speak

Page 26755












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13 English transcripts.













Page 26756

1 excellent English, and that is what I remember you saying.

2 Q. I have to tell you, Mr. van Lynden, that that is not correct. In

3 fact, I never said anything derogatory about Catholics, and I certainly

4 wouldn't have called them papists.

5 JUDGE MAY: The witness has answered that. He says -- you

6 apparently have no recollection of the conversation; he says that's his

7 recollection. We will have to consider the significance of the evidence.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. As you say, this meant, as you say in your statement, that the war

10 was being waged in predominantly Muslim areas and also in Kosovo, namely,

11 parts of Bosnia and Kosovo; is that right? That is what it says here:

12 "This suggested to me that his ultimate goal was to take the war into

13 predominantly Muslim areas, namely, parts of Bosnia and Kosovo."

14 A. That was the conclusion that I and my two local producers, one of

15 whom is Serb, came to, yes.

16 Q. What kind of war in Kosovo in 1991 could have been mentioned at

17 all?

18 A. It wasn't a question of it happening in 1991 but that we expected

19 it to follow the war in Croatia, and it did.

20 Q. Tell me: This was, you say, in July or beginning of August 1991.

21 What kind of war could have been mentioned in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

22 Because the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina started in the spring of 1992.

23 A. That's what I just said, that it would follow. It was an

24 indication to us that war would follow the war that was then being waged

25 in Croatia. And that's what happened. A year later, the war in Bosnia

Page 26757

1 broke out, and later on still, in Kosovo. So we were correct in our

2 analysis.

3 Q. Do you have any idea how the war in Bosnia came about?

4 A. I have some idea, yes, and some personal opinions also.

5 Q. Did you keep any kind of notes of this conversation? You recorded

6 the interview which you don't have, but I assume we can find it. And then

7 you testify here about a conversation that we had 12 years ago, and from

8 that conversation, you concluded that the war would spread to Bosnia and

9 Kosovo, and you did that in July 1991. Is that what you're claiming,

10 Mr. van Lynden?

11 A. Well, it was an indication to us that this might well happen, yes.

12 Q. Tell me, please, who did you arrange the interview with me with?

13 A. It was arranged by my local producers.

14 Q. And who was present during this conversation of ours that you're

15 describing in this way?

16 A. As I remember, we had two television crews, one from Sky News and

17 one from Belgrade television, because the interview was also shown on

18 Belgrade television. And in fact, large parts of it were published on the

19 front page of papers like Politika the next day. I'm also slightly

20 surprised that you have absolutely no recollection, Mr. Milosevic, because

21 I was informed it was the first interview you gave to a Western

22 journalist. And certainly the two local producers were with us

23 afterwards.

24 I can -- in my remembrance, at the end of the interview you said,

25 "Let's let the technicians deal with the cameras, we will go into a

Page 26758

1 different room." And you also expressed your surprise that while I had

2 been firm in my questioning, I had not been impolite, and to which I think

3 my reply was I was not Oriana Falacci, an Italian journalist well-known

4 for being extremely impolite to political leaders when she interviews

5 them.

6 Q. I've read many interviews by Oriana Falacci. I didn't notice that

7 she was impolite. She was a great journalist.

8 JUDGE MAY: We're not going to go into that.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. All these people who were present there could confirm, then, what

11 you are claiming regarding our conversation; is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, tell me -- let us move on to another topic. You spoke about

14 the shelling of Markale, didn't you?

15 A. I was not in Sarajevo when that happened. I have already told the

16 Court that I was in Central Bosnia at that time.

17 Q. Yes. But you say that a senior member of Karadzic's staff in

18 February 1994, shortly after the Markale shelling, told me that Seselj

19 this visited Pale. You say that a senior official told you that. Now,

20 who is that senior official? What is his name?

21 A. I can't remember his name, but I believe that he functioned as a

22 sort of Chief of Staff for Dr. Karadzic.

23 Q. You speak about an event in the bread line, in paragraph 20, and

24 you say that the Bosnian Serbs claim that the Bosnian forces had opened

25 fire at their own people after the shelling in 1992, a notorious incident

Page 26759

1 when civilians in Sarajevo were shelled waiting to collect bread. Is that

2 right? And you say that that is what the Bosnian Serbs claimed.

3 A. That's correct. That's what the Bosnian Serbs claimed. I can say

4 one other thing, that I met Dr. Karadzic immediately after the Markale

5 bombing, and he then also claimed that this had been done by the Bosnians

6 rather than by Karadzic's forces.

7 Q. You say in the very next paragraph, I know that that is what the

8 Serbs claimed and that there were many indications that this was a

9 frame-up to blame the Serbs, but already in the next paragraph you say

10 that another person who made such a claim was General Sir Michael Rose,

11 who just before he left Bosnia in an interview with a BBC journalist, John

12 Simpson, in a programme titled Panorama, inferred that some of his senior

13 staff thought that the BiH had shot at their own people. Is that right?

14 A. That is my remembrance of General Rose's comments to John Simpson.

15 Q. So it wasn't only that such claims were made on the Serb side,

16 that is, that this had been done by the Muslim side, but General Rose also

17 said that, and he had spent quite a long time in Bosnia-Herzegovina as

18 force commander; isn't that right?

19 A. Yes. He'd come to the end of his tenure, one-year tenure as

20 commander of UNPROFOR. He didn't say it outright. He inferred that some

21 of his senior staff thought that it was possible or maybe likely that

22 there had been instances of the Bosnians shooting at their own people.

23 Q. There was quite a lot of information about that. Are you familiar

24 with those data?

25 A. I have never -- I have never seen concrete proof from UNPROFOR,

Page 26760

1 despite repeated requests for it, that this indeed occurred. And I have

2 spoken to a number of other people who were in UNPROFOR a lot longer than

3 General Rose who believe that it never happened.

4 Q. Very well. We will have occasion to consider the data about this

5 some other time. But tell me, please, you describe Milan Martic's visit

6 to Republika Srpska. Did your own cameramen film the review prepared for

7 Martic or was this something that you borrowed from someone else? I

8 haven't come across that in these CDs.

9 A. It was indeed filmed by our own cameramen, and I was personally

10 present.

11 Q. Very well. What was Martic in those days?

12 A. I believe he styled himself the leader or the president of the

13 Serbs in Croatia.

14 Q. He was president of the Republic of Serbian Krajina; is that

15 right?

16 A. That's the title he took, yes, as far as I can remember.

17 Q. Karadzic, in those days, was President of Republika Srpska; is

18 that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Well, what is strange then if Martic comes to visit Karadzic and

21 for Martic to inspect a guard prepared in his honour?

22 A. I never said it was strange. I just simply reported that it

23 happened.

24 Q. What does it indicate, this story that Martic came to visit Pale

25 and that he was received with honours and probably had talks after that

Page 26761












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Page 26762

1 with his collocutor Radovan Karadzic?

2 A. I haven't made any conclusions from that. I've simply said at

3 that time the Bosnian Serbs got direct support, for instance, from Milan

4 Martic, and we were told that Vojislav Seselj had also come to Pale to

5 voice his support for that position. This was after all after NATO had

6 issued a first ultimatum to the Bosnian Serb leadership.

7 Q. This was in 1994?

8 A. This was in February 1994, yes.

9 Q. As for Seselj's visit, you didn't film that, did you?

10 A. No, nor did I see him there.

11 Q. On what basis, then, are you claiming that Seselj was there at the

12 time?

13 A. Because we were told by a senior member of Dr. Karadzic's staff.

14 Q. According to my information, the only time Seselj went to Pale was

15 to extend support to the citizens of Republika Srpska when NATO bombed

16 their positions in the environs of Gorazde.

17 A. Then your information differs from mine.

18 Q. In January, there was a rally of the Serbian Radical Party which

19 lasted several days, and in February and March, sessions of the Assembly

20 of Serbia attended by Seselj who was a deputy at the time, so that at that

21 date he could not have been at Pale, or he shouldn't have been there.

22 A. Whether he should or shouldn't is not up for me to decide. And as

23 far as I'm aware, the Serbian parliament doesn't meet during the weekends.

24 As I said, I didn't see him, but we were told by a senior member of

25 Karadzic's staff that he had come.

Page 26763

1 Q. And when was this shelling around Gorazde? Do you recollect that?

2 Do you remember when NATO bombed positions around Gorazde? Was that in

3 1993?

4 A. I certainly have a memory that in April 1994, there was what I

5 believe was an attack by General Mladic's forces on Gorazde during which

6 at least one forward air observer of the British SAS was killed, and there

7 was bombing by NATO planes. I was not in Gorazde at the time. In fact, I

8 was in Belgrade at the time. It was my last days in Serbia because I was

9 then ordered to leave the country after your government decided to call me

10 persona non grata for life.

11 Q. That's quite possible. In paragraph 5, you say that in 1991, you

12 met in Vukovar with a JNA officer, a certain Mladen Maric, captain first

13 class of the Armoured Guards Brigade, and that you spent several days with

14 him and his unit. Is that right?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. Exactly when that was?

17 A. The precise dates were something between the 10th and the 19th of

18 November, 1991, something like that. It was a ten-day period. We spent

19 one night, a whole night with his unit, slept with them, as I recall

20 around 50 metres from Croat lines, and we visited the city on a daily

21 basis and would find those troops. He was the highest officer, and there

22 was a, as I recall, a Bosnian Muslim lieutenant with him, and a few

23 others. And this was the unit that came under the command of what I think

24 at the time was Major Sljivancanin -- excuse me if I get the pronunciation

25 wrong, it's a difficult name.

Page 26764

1 Q. And according to the information that I received before you came

2 to testify, and will you please just confirm it is correct; in end October

3 1991, you had a car accident. Is that so?

4 A. Could you repeat the date of the car accident?

5 Q. End October. I don't have the precise date. I don't have any

6 earlier information about you. I only have what I received recently.

7 In end October you had a car accident somewhere, and after that,

8 you underwent treatment and spent that time in the Hyatt Hotel. You had a

9 minor concussion or something like that.

10 A. This was at the beginning of October 1992. I had indeed an

11 accident driving with my Land Rover from Hungary to Belgrade, and I think

12 near a place called Novi Beograd I indeed had an accident. But that was

13 1992, not 1991.

14 Q. So that was in 1992. It was not at the time of the siege of

15 Vukovar.

16 A. No. It was during the war in Bosnia.

17 Q. Tell me this, please, since you say that you spent there the last

18 ten days. Does that mean that you were in Vukovar when it fell and that's

19 the time where you were with that captain whom you mentioned?

20 A. We would have to get permission first from the Defence Ministry in

21 Belgrade. This is something that my local producers did. We get further

22 permission usually in a town called Sid, and then drive on via Tovarnik

23 and a place called Oriolik before turning into Vukovar. Then we were with

24 this unit. We would usually leave Belgrade early in the morning and we

25 would return to Belgrade sometime in the afternoon to then edit our story

Page 26765

1 and send it to London. We didn't always succeed, but as I said, I think

2 something like on the 12th or 13th of November we spent 48 hours in the

3 town, and we were certainly there on a daily basis but not for 24 hours at

4 a time, arriving in the morning, leaving in the afternoon, during the last

5 couple of days of the fighting and after the fall of Vukovar.

6 Q. You say that you never saw him after that; is that correct?

7 A. No. I think I do say that I had dinner with him in Belgrade in

8 December 1991, but after that, I never saw him again, no.

9 Q. All right. You never saw him again. You say in paragraph 6 of

10 your statement: "I did not see him again, but my producer who was with us

11 in Vukovar told me that on one day in June 1992, he had seen Maric while

12 he was visiting the Lukavica barracks, the headquarters of the

13 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. He added that Maric was present during combat

14 operations on the Serb side but was still a member of the JNA, that is,

15 the army of Yugoslavia." That's what it says here. "I am aware that

16 Maric remained with the Serb army, refusing to transfer into the Bosnian

17 Serb army."

18 MR. IERACE: Your Honour, I don't know whether it's a translation

19 matter, but at least the English transcript, as I hear it, does not match

20 the English version of the statement. The reference to JNA in the English

21 version of the statement reads "JNA-VJ." Thank you.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That is precisely how I quoted it,

23 "JNA," that is the army of Yugoslavia. And you can also put it

24 differently, "JNA/VJ," which is how I have it here in the Serbian version,

25 but I quoted every word exactly as it is written, and you can check that

Page 26766

1 on the transcripts.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Thus he says that he had seen Maric visiting the Lukavica barracks

4 and that he was present during combat operations on the Serb side.

5 Now, would you please explain this: On what basis did you claim a

6 moment ago that Maric, whom you say in your statement was described to

7 your cameramen as visiting the Lukavica barracks, was at the head of some

8 JNA unit taking part in some military operations in Sarajevo?

9 A. I think you've misunderstood the "whilst visiting." It was my

10 producer who was visiting the Lukavica barracks. He found Maric was

11 stationed there, and he spoke with Maric. I was not present during these

12 conversations. He spoke to Maric, and Maric said that he was on

13 operations there with the JNA. So it was the producer who was visiting,

14 just to make that clear.

15 Q. All right. The producer was visiting. And now just on the basis

16 of the presence of a JNA officer who originally comes from Bosnia and

17 Herzegovina, and you know that, don't you?

18 A. Uh-huh. Yes, I do.

19 Q. So just based on the presence of a JNA officer who is originally

20 from Bosnia and Herzegovina you define that as the presence of the regular

21 Yugoslav army, JNA/VJ in Bosnia, is that so?

22 A. Yes. He was still a guards officer, and he never became an

23 officer in the Bosnian Serb army. He was there as a guards officer of the

24 JNA, and he had his men with him.

25 Q. How do you know that his men were with him or that he took part in

Page 26767












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Page 26768

1 any operations at all?

2 A. I'm only quoting my producer.

3 Q. So your producer collected all that information and gave it to

4 you, including information about some sort of operation. What kind of

5 operation did the JNA allegedly take part in in June 1992 in Lukavica, as

6 you say here? What kind of operation was going on then?

7 A. As I have already told, I was in Sarajevo at the time, and this

8 producer was based in Pale at the time, and this is what he told me.

9 Q. All right. So this is again something that your producer told

10 you. We will not spend any more time on that.

11 Further on you speak about my statement concerning an embargo and

12 the pressure to accept the peace plan; is that right?

13 A. Yes, in paragraph 8.

14 Q. Very well. Do you know that this embargo did not cover

15 humanitarian aid?

16 A. That is as I recall it, yes.

17 Q. And are you aware that the purpose of the embargo was precisely to

18 exert pressure for the peace plan to be accepted?

19 A. That is what you said at the time, yes. Whether I believe that is

20 a different matter, but that's the reason you gave for it, yes.

21 Q. All right, then. Are you aware of the summit meeting in Athens

22 where Radovan Karadzic signed this peace plan, but it was later rejected

23 at the Assembly meeting of Republika Srpska?

24 A. Yes, of the Bosnian Serb parliament, as I recall. But I was not

25 present at that meeting. I mean, of -- when the parliament rejected it.

Page 26769

1 Q. Never mind. There is enough information about that session. It

2 was recorded from beginning to end. There's no need to discuss it

3 further.

4 You say that several days after the introduction of the embargo

5 you saw fuel tankers and trucks on this main road, travelling along that

6 main road. I think you mentioned the area surrounding Bijeljina or

7 something like that.

8 A. I mentioned being in Bijeljina. I saw those trucks crossing over

9 at two different crossings, one at Zvornik and one to the north of

10 Zvornik, and I saw trucks crossing into Bosnian Serb territory. And we

11 noticed that because we were at least told that they were not meant to

12 because there was meant to be an embargo. That's why we noticed it. We

13 saw trucks crossing in 1992 but paid it little heed, but after this

14 introduction of an embargo, we paid it more heed. But it wasn't the

15 purpose. We hadn't gone to the border to see whether the embargo was

16 working. We had gone to go to two places, Janja and Bijeljina, as I

17 recall, to see the voting in the referendum on the decision of the Bosnian

18 Serb Assembly to reject the peace plan that Karadzic, as you said, signed

19 in Athens.

20 Q. Well, it's not what I say. He did sign this plan in Athens.

21 So you were there at the time when the embargo had not yet been

22 introduced?

23 A. My recollection is that the embargo had already been introduced.

24 Q. Well, then, since you remember that time and maybe we will be able

25 to get more and more precise information about it on some other occasion,

Page 26770

1 do you remember that in relation to that embargo an International

2 Monitoring Mission was deployed along the border of the Federal Republic

3 of Yugoslavia and Republika Srpska and that that mission was headed by a

4 Swedish General, Bo Pellnas?

5 A. Yes. I don't remember the Swedish General, but I remember that

6 some kind of an outside monitoring observer force was sent, yes.

7 Q. And do you know that this monitoring mission did not draw any

8 conclusions about the embargo being violated? At least I have no

9 information to that effect, while they were on the border all the time

10 after the embargo was introduced, of course, not before. And their

11 presence was made possible only through our goodwill. It was not

12 something that was imposed on us. Because they had asked us, "Are you

13 sincere about this?" We said, "Yes, of course." They said, "Can we

14 monitor this?" We said, "Yes, of course." You are a journalist. You're

15 supposed to know these things?

16 A. You would have to ask the UN. I cannot tell you what the UN

17 thought or did not think.

18 Q. Very well. Then I shouldn't ask you about this. But if there was

19 a monitoring mission who did their work with all earnestness, don't you

20 suppose that they were able to establish --

21 JUDGE MAY: No. That's not a question for the witness.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. This witness testifies that this was all stage-managed.

25 Unfortunately, it wasn't.

Page 26771

1 In paragraph 9, you say that you had to buy fuel for your own cars

2 on the black market in Belgrade; is that correct?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. Was it the case that somebody refused to sell you fuel or was it

5 something that all the citizens of Serbia had to experience because we

6 were under a blockade, under an embargo, suffering great shortages

7 including the shortage of fuel? Are you aware of that?

8 A. Yes. But this began in 1991. It was more a question -- there

9 were petrol pumps open with huge queues at them, and if you're working for

10 a 24-hour news channel, you cannot spend hours and hours and hours

11 queueing for fuel to try and get somewhere, because we wouldn't be able to

12 do our work. That's why we decided to set up our own sort of fuel pump --

13 dump. And this dump was set up before the UN embargo against Yugoslavia.

14 Q. All right. But there were shortages. I only wanted to clear up

15 one thing: Nobody targeted or discriminated against you specifically

16 because you were foreigners; but on the contrary, there were queues

17 everywhere and the citizens queued, whereas you didn't have time to. Is

18 that the case?

19 A. Citizens indeed queued. Citizens also did the same thing that we

20 did, which was to buy fuel on the black market.

21 Q. I only wanted to establish one thing: There was no discrimination

22 against you as a journalist or a foreigner, but you were simply in a

23 situation that was difficult all round in a country.

24 A. Certainly I was never discriminated upon at any petrol pump in

25 Serbia.

Page 26772

1 Q. All right. And you are aware under those very hard sanctions that

2 Yugoslavia and Republika Srpska and the Republic of Serbian Krajina found

3 themselves under. There were no medicines, vaccines, there was no fuel,

4 there were no inputs for the production of medicines either. Everything

5 was blocked. Are you aware of that?

6 A. No, there were medicines. It wasn't that there was no medicine in

7 the whole of Serbia, and it was also not a situation that there was no

8 petrol in the whole of Serbia. There was a huge amount of smuggling going

9 on from neighbouring countries, and that's how we got our petrol and

10 diesel, I imagine, on the black market. Yes, there were shortages,

11 certainly, and for some of the population it was very hard, but if you had

12 your means and you had the money, you could get hold of anything.

13 Q. At any event, the sanctions were very strict, and it was very

14 difficult to live under them at those times and trade with other countries

15 was, in fact, clandestine, and it was a form of black marketeering,

16 smuggling.

17 A. Yes, there was smuggling, yes.

18 Q. But of course we did manage to have the minimum quantities of

19 medicines. We did have pharmaceutical factories, so we were able to do

20 something, depending on the success of the smuggling, when it came to the

21 inputs for the pharmaceutical industry and for our factories. I assume

22 you know that too.

23 A. As I said, yes, there were medicines available.

24 Q. Tell me this now, please: In paragraph 10, you talk about some

25 sort of regular meetings. So when you say "regular meetings," what do you

Page 26773












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Page 26774

1 mean, between Karadzic, Mladic, and myself, meetings that regularly took

2 place, as you say, in Belgrade and on occasions in Pale. Now, what do you

3 mean by these regular meetings?

4 A. Well, as you will be aware, Mr. Milosevic, I was not attending

5 these meetings, but as I say, we were told -- I was told, my local

6 producers were told by Serb journalists, by other sources, including the

7 head of Belgrade television and a member of the foreign ministry about

8 meetings between you, Dr. Karadzic, and General Mladic took place. And in

9 September 1992, when I met Dr. Karadzic at the Intercontinental Hotel, he

10 told me he was in Belgrade because he was seeing you. I didn't see

11 General Mladic, by the way, at that meeting. I don't know if -- whether

12 he was included.

13 Q. It is quite possible that when you saw Karadzic, it was when he

14 came to see me, too, during his stay in Belgrade. But the point of my

15 question was not whether I ever met Karadzic. Of course I did. Or

16 whether I ever met Mladic. Of course I did. But you're talking about

17 some sort of regular meetings. So what do you mean when you say "regular

18 meetings"?

19 A. This is what we were told by the various sources. They wouldn't

20 specify what that meant, whether you were seeing each other once every

21 three days or once every one and a half months, but that there were

22 meetings. That's what we were told.

23 Q. Well, there were meetings, but there couldn't have been regular

24 meetings.

25 And you say sometimes, or you say, "and on occasions in Pale."

Page 26775

1 You know that I was at Pale only once, to attend an Assembly of Republika

2 Srpska when the Vance Owen plan was on the agenda.

3 A. I'm aware that you visited Pale then. Again, I am quoting others.

4 Q. So when you say "in Pale," that cannot be correct at all, can it?

5 A. As I said, I'm quoting others, Mr. Milosevic.

6 Q. I understand that you're quoting others, but it would appear that

7 those sources were not the most reliable. And you also say that in Pale,

8 you had several meetings with Karadzic. Is that right?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. I assume you had an interview with him.

11 A. Most of the time, no. These were just meetings to talk to each

12 other. Dr. Karadzic very much wanted to do interviews directly with Sky

13 News, either, if we had a satellite dish, by standing in front of the

14 camera; or if we did not have a satellite dish, then via the telephone.

15 We had meetings in which we simply had conversations about what was

16 happening in Bosnia. I did, on occasion, go there also to ask him a few

17 questions, but they weren't this kind of formal 40-minute, sit-down

18 interviews. Those would be sessions that would last five or ten minutes

19 when I just had a couple of questions to ask.

20 JUDGE MAY: You have five minutes left, Mr. Milosevic.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May. If I have just

22 five more minutes, then I'm going to shorten all this.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. In your presentation yesterday, you mentioned snipers. As far as

25 I know, there were snipers on both sides.

Page 26776

1 A. I don't recall presenting anything yesterday, but, yes, there were

2 snipers on both sides.

3 Q. I assume that it was read out from the summary, actually. The

4 summary of your statement was read out. I'm not saying that you said this

5 yesterday; you were quoted as having said that. From the previous

6 statement, that's the note that I made of it. But anyway, the snipers

7 existed on both sides. Isn't that right, Mr. van Lynden?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So on the Serb side, too, you saw shelters put up against snipers,

10 barriers to protect the people from Muslim snipers; is that right?

11 A. Yes. That's in my statement.

12 Q. You also said yesterday or were quoted as saying yesterday, I

13 can't remember which it was, but anyway, it was said that the snipers

14 chose their own targets. Is that right?

15 A. What I said was that snipers in the positions that I was taken to

16 in Grbavica told me that they chose their own targets, but what we also

17 saw was that there were radios and that there were what we would call

18 spotters or observers who were at different, I imagine higher locations,

19 informing the snipers.

20 I have to add that I had never went with a unit on the other side,

21 and therefore, I cannot describe how their snipers behaved, but they

22 certainly had them.

23 Q. Well, I'm asking you that because a witness here claimed that that

24 sniper fire from Serb positions was coordinated from the top echelons;

25 whereas, what you said would make it appear different.

Page 26777

1 You mentioned having seen mortars at the -- by the Kosevo

2 hospital; is that right?

3 A. I saw one mortar by the Kosevo hospital in July 1992, yes, but

4 without any troops there, just the mortar. As I recall, an 82 or

5 81-millimetre mortar.

6 Q. Very well. You're a war reporter. You can differentiate between

7 weapons. You saw a mortars by the Kosevo hospital, and it belonged to the

8 Muslims, didn't it? It was a Muslim mortar.

9 A. It was a mortar which I imagine belonged to the Bosnian army,

10 which was never a Muslim army in my opinion, because I always encountered

11 Serbs and Croats in that army.

12 Q. Very well. Anyway, the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Now, did they

13 open fire? Do you know that they used the hospital as a shelter to or

14 vantage point to open fire at the army of Republika Srpska from?

15 A. This was in July 1992 when there wasn't yet a Republika Srpska,

16 first point. Secondly, no, I never saw that mortar actually fire. And I

17 never saw fire emanating from the hospital terrain in Sarajevo. Certainly

18 never at the state hospital where I spent many nights.

19 Q. All right. Just two more questions, please, if I may. I hope I'm

20 going to have time for that, Mr. May.

21 You spoke about the conflict at the Dvor na Uni. You spoke about

22 that towards the end of today's presentation, I believe.

23 A. I was asked about Dvor na Uni, yes.

24 Q. And who fell victim during that clash at Dvor na Uni?

25 A. I'm not sure whether you're referring to either the fighting in

Page 26778

1 the village of Struga or the incident in Dvor na Uni between

2 Captain Dragan and the local population. If you're referring to what

3 happened in Struga, as far as I can remember, four inhabitants of Struga,

4 all Croat, were killed, and two Serb militiamen. If you're referring to

5 the incident in Dvor na Uni itself, Captain Dragan told me that the ten

6 Serbs that he had arrested had killed four Croat women who came from

7 Struga.

8 Q. That's fine, and that's why I'm asking you. When did that take

9 place, actually?

10 A. In July 1991.

11 Q. July 1991, you say. And then this was the final question you were

12 asked and your final response during the examination-in-chief: You claim

13 that Captain Dragan told you that I was in charge of all those operations.

14 Is that right?

15 A. No. He never said that you were operationally in charge. What he

16 told me was that you were the ultimate leader of the Serbs. And when I

17 have asked that question to -- to Dr. Karadzic or General Mladic, they

18 wouldn't have argued with that.

19 Q. All right. Very well. Okay. That I was the Serb occupying the

20 highest position. That is not at issue, because I was president of the

21 Republic of Serbia. But that's quite another matter, quite different from

22 what I understood you to say in response to a question asked by the other

23 side as to who was in charge of these operations and that Dragan told you

24 that it was Milosevic who was in charge of them.

25 JUDGE MAY: The witness has answered. He said what -- he told you

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Page 26780

1 what Captain Dragan said.

2 Yes. Now -- now, what is -- Mr. Milosevic, what is the point you

3 want to make? You've got your answer. He's told you what Dragan said

4 about you. Now, what is your final point, and it is your final point.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, my question was precisely

6 that.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. The year 1991, the month of July, is it true Mr. van Lynden that

9 at that time there was the JNA presence as a legal army there, as a

10 legitimate army of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and we're

11 talking about July 1991, and you yourself said that they had come after

12 the conflicts to set up a buffer zone there.

13 A. Yes, we're talking about 1991. Yes, the JNA was there as the army

14 of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. And yes, in the village of Struga

15 they had come to set up a buffer after the fighting had stopped.

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Have -- no.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please just --

18 JUDGE MAY: You have exhausted your time. We have got well beyond

19 the time that you should have been allow.

20 Have the amici any questions?

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honours, I have about

22 ten or 15 minutes of questions.

23 JUDGE MAY: Make a start then, please.

24 Questioned by Mr. Tapuskovic:

25 Q. This is a topic that I would like to broach to start off with, and

Page 26781

1 I have questions in that regard, and that's the one I would need most time

2 for. But perhaps I could start with somebody else first up to the break

3 and then carry on.

4 Baron, when you spoke about the hospital and what you did from the

5 roof of the hospital, in paragraph 12 you said that with a cameraman and

6 sound man, you would record from the top building of the hospital and from

7 a sheltered place you would watch the fire across the city coming from

8 both sides of the hospital. So at that time, there were no operations

9 vis-a-vis you who were conducting your -- doing your job there. And I'm

10 referring to paragraph 12.

11 A. I should just add, Your Honours, I was never on the roof. That

12 would not have been a very sensible place to be. I was on the top floor

13 of the hospital.

14 I don't quite understand what you mean by "operations vis-a-vis

15 you." What do you mean by "operations"?

16 Q. At that point in time, was there firing at the hospital from any

17 side? That's what I wanted to ask you; was the hospital fired at from any

18 side while you were up there?

19 A. Yes, quite regularly the hospital was fired at while we were in

20 the building.

21 Q. In the next sentence, you say the cameraman and sound man would

22 swap sides according to the pattern of fire in order to record it. Does

23 that mean with respect to the fire opened at the hospital, targeting the

24 hospital?

25 A. No, it does not, because you cannot -- it's very, very difficult

Page 26782

1 to film anyway. No. This is talking about filming shelling of either the

2 eastern or western halves of Sarajevo. And if we felt that it was heavier

3 in the east, then the cameraman would go to the side of the building that

4 faced towards that direction. That's what it's a reference to.

5 Q. But at any case, in that particular point -- at that particular

6 point in time it wasn't the hospital that was targeted by this fire.

7 A. The hospital would also be hit, but it wasn't -- filming shelling,

8 a television filming of shelling is incredibly difficult, because

9 artillery shelling you don't see. It is much easier when it is multiple

10 rocket launcher fire because you can see the rockets, but you can't see

11 the artillery shell. And one shell lands there, and if the other shell

12 lands there, you may still be filming. You can only start filming when

13 the first shell has landed. It's a complicated thing. Therefore, to film

14 a single shot or a couple of rounds coming into the hospital building

15 would be completely impossible.

16 Apart from that, I have to say that at any time that I was in the

17 building, the only time that it was hit by a heavier shell was when it was

18 hit by what I think - what we think - was a tank shell. But at that time

19 I was in the basement, waiting to take the lift up to the higher floors.

20 So the only fire that I witnessed when on the upper floors was of

21 lower-calibre fire.

22 Q. Just tell me this, please: While you were in the building, new

23 casualties kept coming in, as you say in paragraph 13. Now, during those

24 points in time while you were there and the hospital was hit, did anybody

25 fall casualty while you were there?

Page 26783

1 A. I do recall two people were wounded inside the hospital at a lower

2 floor when I was on the upper floor, but we only heard about that later.

3 I don't recall either of them being seriously hurt, but those were people

4 working on the lower floors. All the upper floors of the hospital had

5 been evacuated, and the only people residing on the top floor was the Sky

6 News crew. But yes, there were casualties there, and I was informed that

7 prior to my arrival others had been hit inside the hospital building.

8 JUDGE MAY: Would that be a convenient moment, Mr. Tapuskovic?

9 Very well. We'll adjourn now for 20 minutes.

10 --- Recess taken at 12.19 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 12.50 p.m.

12 JUDGE MAY: Now, Mr. Milosevic. We understand that you've been

13 taken unwell. If that's right, you can leave while we conclude this

14 witness. Do you want to leave?

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No. Mr. May, you know full well

16 that for many months now I have no conditions to rest, and it's just a

17 question of increased blood pressure due to fatigue. I don't believe I'm

18 ill. It's simply this fatigue that contributes to higher blood pressure,

19 that's all.

20 JUDGE MAY: We will finish the witness. Mr. Tapuskovic.

21 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 Q. Witness, I was asking you those things a moment ago because there

23 are two other statements that you gave to the investigators of the

24 Tribunal in 2001 and 2002; is that right?

25 A. That's correct. Excuse me. That's correct.

Page 26784

1 Q. I asked the Prosecution if they would be kind enough to give you

2 copies in front of you so that I might ask for a few explanations from you

3 for the benefit of Their Honours.

4 In this first statement from 2001, it is the chapter headed

5 "Shelling of Hospitals." And you said here, in the middle of that

6 chapter, third paragraph from the end: "I am aware of the allegation that

7 the hospital was shelled only because the Bosnians used it as a sniping

8 position, though I cannot categorically say that that was not the case."

9 Is that right?

10 A. I don't see that in the third paragraph.

11 Q. Fifth paragraph in this chapter.

12 A. Yes. I stand by what I told the investigator at the time.

13 Q. Thank you. And in the chapter "Shelling of Civilian Emergency

14 Services," and when the building where the firemen were extinguishing the

15 fire is mentioned, in the third paragraph, somewhere in the middle you

16 say: "I saw that the firemen were managing to put the fire out in a part

17 of the building. However, the Serb gunners succeeded in setting another

18 part alight. Thought we cannot exclude the possibility that ABiH snipers

19 were using this building, this attack cannot be considered a justifiable

20 military action."

21 A. Firstly, we asked people living -- living in the apartment whether

22 this building had been used for any military purposes whatsoever that

23 could have given rise to this building coming under attack. We were told

24 by those people that it had not been.

25 And I think I should point out to the Court that civilians living

Page 26785












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Page 26786

1 in Sarajevo by that stage realised full well that if a building was used

2 that it could come under attack and what the consequences for their

3 property would be. So I cannot exclude it. I asked the questions.

4 We also went to UNPROFOR and asked them, after this incident,

5 whether they had seen or whether either any of their forces or observers

6 had noted any fire coming from this building being directed toward Serb

7 lines, and they said they had not.

8 The third thing that made me feel that this was a very odd

9 incident indeed was that only incendiary bullets were used. Now, in any

10 kind of normal military engagement, certainly one where both sides were

11 fighting at each other, you would have all sorts of calibre of weapons

12 being used. On this occasion, the only fire that I saw hitting this

13 apartment block was of incendiary bullets. Therefore, I felt it was a

14 direct attack on a civilian target.

15 Q. Thank you. And did you hear from UNPROFOR representatives, the

16 officers in the first place, that in some cases UNPROFOR bases were used

17 in such a way that close to those bases certain armed formations would be

18 positioned, armed formations of the BiH army who would open fire on Serb

19 positions from there? Had you heard of any provocations from the city of

20 Sarajevo towards those that were besieging Sarajevo? Did you hear any

21 such reports?

22 A. I do not remember any UNPROFOR officer or spokesman telling me

23 that during my time in Sarajevo.

24 Q. Thank you. Baron, could you please look at your statement of

25 2002, the chapter dealing with Vukovar. You have already referred to it

Page 26787

1 in the examination-in-chief. Now, could you please look at the second

2 paragraph of that chapter, somewhere in the middle.

3 Speaking about Vukovar you said the following: "Sometimes the JNA

4 would take us in armoured vehicles. Sometimes we would use our own

5 vehicles, but more frequently the latter. Only towards the fall of

6 Vukovar did we get good access is to Vukovar through the Guards Unit of

7 the JNA."

8 Is that right? Does that mean that the Yugoslav People's Army was

9 ready to give you full access to the events taking place just prior to the

10 fall of Vukovar?

11 A. It depended on which part of the Yugoslav army you contacted. We

12 had days that we actually met a general of the Yugoslav army outside of

13 Vukovar who gave us permission to go in and that when we arrived in a

14 small village called Oriolik, there would be some Commissar from the

15 Yugoslav army who would not allow us to go any further and sent us back.

16 We nearly always had to get permission first from the Ministry of Defence

17 in Belgrade, then in Sid, and then it just depended who you ran into.

18 When I said that we got better access towards the end, it was because we

19 were facilitated by those officers in the Guards Unit once we made it into

20 Vukovar. But getting into Vukovar, every day you didn't know, even if you

21 had permission, whether you would get in or not.

22 Q. But in any event, just before the fall of Vukovar, you could --

23 you had full insight into the developments in Vukovar?

24 A. I wouldn't say I had full insight. I never saw the operational

25 maps on the Yugoslav army side. I of course didn't have any contact with

Page 26788

1 the Croatian side whatsoever. We tried to have as full an insight by

2 going into the town and as I also explained already to the Court, on one

3 night we spent a night sleeping with the guard soldiers some 50 metres

4 from Croat lines which, I should add, was pretty dangerous. So we tried

5 to get as full an insight as possible, but a complete insight, no, of

6 course not.

7 Q. I understand that, but two paragraphs lower down, you refer to a

8 captain of the Guards Unit who complained to you that the JNA was having

9 two many casualties in that area. Is that right?

10 A. Yes. This was Mladen Maric.

11 Q. And is what you say in the next paragraph at the end of it also

12 true, that when you entered the town there were mines everywhere, even in

13 the centre of town? Is that right?

14 A. Yes, and we filmed them being cleared by soldiers of the JNA after

15 the town had -- yes. So we encountered minefields in the centre of town,

16 yes.

17 Q. And also is the following correct that you stated at the end of

18 the next paragraph: "Together with the army, we went on a trip outside

19 Vukovar where the Croats surrendered. This group of Croatians were not in

20 uniform. As they came out, each man laid down his arms, whatever he had.

21 They were then frisked and led to buses organised by the JNA. There was

22 no jeering or shouting. Some of the Croats were crying, some were trying

23 to keep their heads held high."

24 Do you remember that scene?

25 A. Yes. And that story is in the hands of the Tribunal. This wasn't

Page 26789

1 just soldiers. I should say there was civilians as well. There were

2 women, all the people coming out of Vukovar. There were several thousand

3 people walking out of Vukovar, but that scene is correct, yes.

4 Q. There were civilians from whom weapons were seized, among others;

5 is that right?

6 A. Some of the -- they were all in civilian clothing. Some of them

7 had weaponry, some of them did not. There were also old women.

8 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Then we come to the next paragraph where

9 you say in the last sentence: "We saw a huge mass of people leaving.

10 They were all civilians. The JNA were guarding them, protecting them from

11 getting harassed by the Serb paramilitary units. Did you see that?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. And did you see what it says towards the end of your statement:

14 "For a while after that, buses arrived to evacuate the remaining Croats.

15 We accompanied the convoy as far as Sremska Mitrovica. I remember that

16 the JNA accused the Croatian forces outside Vukovar of shooting at this

17 convoy. The convoy spent the night in Sremska Mitrovica and the next day

18 via Bosnia it went off to Croatia." Is that also true?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Just one more point in connection with Karadzic. Today during

21 your examination-in-chief, you said, and this is your first statement, the

22 chapter dealing with Karadzic where you explain the reference that you

23 made to the Berlin Wall. You said that this was a conversation that you

24 had with him in September 1992.

25 Was that the conversation when he showed you the maps?

Page 26790

1 A. There were various conversations in which he showed me the maps.

2 This was held in his office, this meeting, when he spoke about the Berlin

3 Wall. We had generally meetings within his office, but we also had one

4 meeting at the headquarters of the television in Pale.

5 Q. And do you recall that when there was a discussion as to the

6 ownership of the Serbs, was it stated that according to the cadastre,

7 according to official documents which are the only things that can prove

8 right of ownership -- this was not a question of the nation but the

9 cadastre, according to which 65 per cent of Bosnia-Herzegovina was in the

10 ownership of Serbs. Was that mentioned?

11 A. Quite possibly, but I don't recall that he used the word

12 "cadastre," no.

13 Q. My last question: As you said that there was a reference to the

14 Berlin Wall, which is, of course, quite inappropriate civilisation-wise,

15 but you spoke about another meeting in September 1992 and the maps that

16 were shown on that occasion. But on that occasion there was no mention of

17 the Berlin Wall. I don't know whether that was the same meeting, I'd like

18 you to explain that, but the last sentence, if you look at the last

19 paragraph of the second statement, "Command Control..." it says that: "He

20 said that he wanted Yugoslavia because it was a country for the life of

21 all Serbs. He was not talking about any separation or division. He was

22 saying that he favoured or that he wanted representatives of other peoples

23 to move away but that he wanted Yugoslavia as it was a country enabling

24 life for everyone. And on another occasion, he spoke about the partition

25 of Sarajevo."

Page 26791












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Page 26792

1 Is what you said here correct? And that would be my last

2 question.

3 A. You're jumping from one statement to another very, very quickly,

4 so excuse me if I just read it now.

5 Yes, with Yugoslavia being defined as a Greater Serbia, a state

6 that did not have any Croats, Muslims, or anything else in it.

7 Q. But, Baron, that doesn't -- that's not stated in your statement,

8 because if he had said that, surely you would have said so. What you're

9 saying now cannot be found in your statement. How can you explain that,

10 that you never mentioned the word "Greater Serbia," on that occasion?

11 Because that would be very important for the investigators and for drawing

12 any or making any determinations about anything.

13 A. Well, what I said was that the enclaves were unacceptable and that

14 they had to become part of Serb territory without the inhabitants of those

15 enclaves staying. So in that sense, I mean a Greater Serbia. I mean,

16 those are my words. It means all the Serb territories should be together.

17 That, to him, meant Yugoslavia in the sense that you see it there; that

18 Yugoslavia was a state for all the Serbs to live in, not the Yugoslavia of

19 Slovenes, Croats, Muslims, Albanians, and Serbs -- Montenegrins and Serbs.

20 Q. Your Honours, paragraph 19, if I may refer to it, where you speak

21 about uniforms.

22 A. Which statement? Which statement?

23 Q. Your last statement, Witness, in 2003, paragraph 40.

24 You said here -- you corrected yourself, and you said: "In my

25 first statement, I referred to the uniforms worn by these soldiers as

Page 26793

1 being the same kind of uniform as the Yugoslav army wore the previous

2 year. They were JNA uniforms as worn by the JNA that I saw during the

3 fighting in Croatia."

4 A. Can you tell me which paragraph you're reading from, as this has

5 only just been handed to me. Which paragraph?

6 Q. It is paragraph 40.

7 A. Okay. Thank you.

8 Q. You were referring to the uniforms you saw worn by the JNA in

9 Vukovar where you had been a year before, but you said at the end that the

10 Red Star had been replaced with a Serbian tricoloured cap badge. So from

11 the moment you followed events in Bosnia, there were no longer JNA

12 uniforms but these other uniforms were worn. Isn't that right?

13 A. No. The uniform was the same, the cap badge was different. All

14 the ranks were the same, everything was the same apart from the cap badge.

15 Q. And the cap itself, was it the same? Was it completely different,

16 a completely different cap specific only to the army of Republika Srpska?

17 For example, General Mladic, what kind of cap did he wear?

18 A. Going back to 1992, he wore JNA uniform. He changed it, or they

19 changed it later on, but that was only later on. In 1992 they were still

20 wearing JNA uniforms. In you check, you'll find that's the case.

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Any re-examination?

22 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 MR. IERACE: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Re-examined by Mr. Ierace:

25 Q. You said that Sky News was no longer broadcast in Serbia following

Page 26794

1 a decision to close it down. When was that?

2 A. Well, Sky News wasn't closed down. It was decided by the Serb

3 authorities no longer to broadcast Sky News 12 hours a day on the third

4 channel.

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. At some stage in 1992. I'm not aware of any precise date, but as

7 far as I can remember, it was at the beginning or in the spring of 1992.

8 Q. It was suggested to you that your evidence on the subject of the

9 snipers operating from Grbavica was inconsistent with the notion that

10 their operations were coordinated from the top levels of the Bosnian Serb

11 army. Were these soldiers wearing uniforms?

12 A. Yes, most of them were.

13 Q. How did you gain access to them?

14 A. Through company or battalion commanders.

15 Q. How did you make contact with those company or battalion

16 commanders?

17 A. After meeting General Mladic and after he had given his accord

18 that I could visit military units under his command on the various front

19 lines around Sarajevo.

20 Q. Were you accompanied by anyone when you spoke to the company or

21 battalion commanders?

22 A. Firstly, Dr. Karadzic had arranged that two Serb military

23 policemen accompanied us as all times if we left Pale, and they did so.

24 And at certain moments, although I don't think in 1992 but certainly in

25 1994, when I visited similar units in Grbavica, there was someone from the

Page 26795

1 Bosnian Serb government, usually some press officer of one sort or another

2 who would accompany us.

3 Q. And indeed did those two military policemen arrange the contact

4 between you and the company or battalion commanders?

5 A. I suspect that it was usually arranged beforehand from the

6 headquarters in Pale, but they knew who to go to and who to contact.

7 Q. All right. Now, you were also taken to one of your statements

8 where you said in effect that you were aware of a suggestion that fire by

9 Bosnian Serb forces against the state hospital was in response to sniping

10 from the hospital. Where did that suggestion come from? Where did you

11 hear it?

12 A. From the Bosnian Serb side.

13 Q. Did you ever see in the state hospital forces of the Bosnian army

14 in operation?

15 A. I only saw them being operated on. No, we never saw any armed

16 soldiers from the Bosnian army in the hospital. And I should add one

17 point to Your Honours here. As the correspondent, one is in charge of a

18 team and, therefore, also in effect responsible for the people in that

19 team. Of course in a war zone, you are always -- there is a certain

20 threat that something may happen to one member of your team or another,

21 but I was quite careful with the cameraman with whom I'd already worked

22 for many years to check quite carefully through the top floors of that

23 building to see if we found any empty cartridges, for instance, any kind

24 of sign that the building had been used for military purposes, and we

25 never did.

Page 26796

1 MR. IERACE: That completes re-examination, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE MAY: Baron van Lynden, that concludes your evidence. Thank

3 you for coming to the Tribunal to give it. You are free to go.

4 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honours.

5 [The witness withdrew]

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

7 MR. IERACE: Your Honour, we've made some inquiries in relation to

8 the contents of the CD that the accused has indicated was blank. I do

9 apologise for that. It transpires, as I understand it, that Mr. Kay also

10 received a blank CD. His was replaced. We were unaware that one was

11 provided to the accused. However, I can indicate that the contents were

12 identical to annex A being a CD annexed to the 92 bis (A) statement of the

13 accused, so one way or another he has received the contents.

14 Your Honour, also for the record, might I say that I have been

15 assisted by Prashanthi Mahindaratne in the presentation of the evidence

16 for this witness. Thank you.

17 JUDGE MAY: We will have to look at that. You might also,

18 Mr. Ierace, while you're at it, see if you can lay hands on the interview

19 which the witness conducted with Mr. Milosevic.

20 MR. IERACE: Your Honour, the OTP does not possess a copy of that.

21 We will need to seek it from the Sky News, Sky Television organisation.

22 JUDGE MAY: Maybe you could get it.

23 MR. IERACE: Yes, we will.

24 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Now, given the accused's condition, we will

25 consider what to do next.

Page 26797

1 Are there any matters, administrative matters that anybody wants

2 to raise before any witness is called or anything like that?

3 MR. NICE: Not really, only to say that we have circulated by way

4 of a memorandum, which I hope is acceptable, a list of rather abbreviated

5 format, a list of the witnesses to be called and the witnesses who need

6 not be prepared, and I only say that again so that the accused can

7 understand what that piece of paper is. In particular, the list that

8 tells him the witnesses need not be prepared identifies witnesses we do

9 not now expect to have time to call and so he can stand down preparation

10 for them. In light of his earlier observation about the strains on him of

11 the work that he's having to do, I hope he will find this a helpful guide

12 to his work.

13 We will provide, incidentally, the same list in a fuller form but

14 it's subject to some editorial work at the moment and I want it to come to

15 you in a final form as soon as can be. That's all.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE MAY: Now, Mr. Milosevic, you're feeling tired; is that

18 right? What's your condition?

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I have told you, Mr. May. I

20 have been tired for months now, and it's no news to you.

21 JUDGE MAY: Well, it may have been that it's the task which you've

22 taken in hand which is proving so much for you. Have you considered that?

23 Do you need assistance in it? This is a very considerable trial. If you

24 had assistance, you wouldn't be feeling the strain so much, would you?

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, there is no assistance that

Page 26798

1 can help me listen to thousands of videotapes and half a million pages

2 while being present here for examination-in-chief and cross-examination.

3 I hope that is clear to you. As far as Mr. Nice's remark is concerned

4 about some sort of memo, I don't know what memo he's talking about because

5 I never received any. And as regards the blank CD being identical to the

6 CD containing annex A, I wish to note that I received annex A when this

7 witness started to testify, together with the background material that is

8 usually given to me just before the testimony, and I was able to see it

9 only last night.

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes. What I had in mind was that you should have

11 legal representation, as you've been told from the very beginning, but

12 that is a matter for you, and we'll have to decide what course is

13 appropriate.

14 Anyway, we'll not continue today in the circumstances.

15 The registrar has a point about an exhibit number. Let's deal

16 with that.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. The exhibit you were -- Your

18 Honour, the CD-ROM used by Mr. Milosevic will be Defence Exhibit 192 and

19 Prosecution number is V000-0870 to 0871.

20 JUDGE MAY: We will adjourn until tomorrow morning.

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.23 p.m.,

22 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 17th day of

23 September, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.