Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 36480

1 Wednesday, 23 February 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.


7 MR. NICE: Two things, Your Honour. First, yesterday the letters

8 of August the 1st, 1995, that I spoke of, letters sent by the accused to

9 Izetbegovic and Mladic I said were in English. The accused challenged

10 that. The Chamber will remember that I'm not in a position at present to

11 provide documents, but I'm doing my best to ensure that they may be

12 provided.

13 Although I'm quite satisfied that the covering letter or a

14 covering letter from the accused was indeed in English and that Belgrade

15 translations in English were provided, I'm also now satisfied that there

16 were indeed Cyrillic Serbian originals. I forecast they will be that were

17 signed and so that point, insofar as it was at point all, goes. And I'll

18 make the documents available if and as soon as I possibly can but these

19 are matters outside my control.

20 Second point: Yesterday, the extent of the re-examination on the

21 accused's own tab 8 caused me some concern but I raised an objection and

22 the Chamber ruled against me, but it set me to thinking as I heard the

23 extent of the inferences the accused was inviting the Chamber to draw from

24 the documents it did have what other materials might be available the

25 better to assist the Chamber, and of course the United Nations website has

Page 36481

1 a great deal of material that can be downloaded, and I simply inform you

2 that we have, and we have available for you in case you should find it

3 helpful small collections of papers, I think they're neutral on the issues

4 between the accused and the Prosecution, culminating in a transcription of

5 the session itself. It's not really an argument because it appears the

6 decisions have already been made. A transcription of the session where

7 the various countries concerned make speeches, as Your Honour will

8 understand and be familiar with, and it's quite clear from those sessions

9 that tab 8 was not referred to. Indeed, in light of what is in the last

10 paragraph of tab 8 it would be very surprising if it was referred to. So

11 that would appear to confirm the point that the document was not

12 considered at the time of taking the vote and making the speeches.

13 But also, in addition to that material should you want it, the

14 transcription of the hearing, there are two telegrams and one letter sent

15 by Yugoslavia to the council in the lead-up to the decision and perhaps a

16 document of which you will have already heard, the earlier report dated

17 the 26th of May of 1992 on original Security Council Resolution 752.

18 So that material's all available for you. It's about that much

19 reading if you're interested in looking at it.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Nice.

21 Mr. Milosevic, to complete your re-examination of this witness.

22 Bear in mind the witness has been here four days.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am bearing it in mind. Thank you,

24 Mr. Robinson.


Page 36482

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 Re-examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]

3 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Jovanovic.

4 A. Good morning.

5 Q. You said at one point that the Kosovo Liberation Army was an

6 infantry of NATO, and you were asked on what basis you asserted that. I

7 assume you remember that. Do you recall saying this? Can you confirm

8 that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Here I have photocopies of newspaper articles, and this is Ramush

11 Haradinaj's statement. He is allegedly the Prime Minister of Kosovo at

12 present. The title is NATO and KLA, A Single Army. It says, "Soldiers

13 and officers who arrived worked with us as if we were the same army."

14 That's what it says.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Would you please put this on the

16 ELMO.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, how does that arise out of

18 cross-examination?

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I understand that what he said --

20 what Mr. Jovanovic said has been brought into question; that is, that the

21 KLA played the role of a NATO infantry, and I am asking on what basis he

22 said this. He was unable to provide material evidence, but now here I

23 have an article where the same Haradinaj says that NATO and the KLA were a

24 single army. You can see it from this.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Who asked that question, Mr. Milosevic? Who

Page 36483

1 asked that question?

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] As far as I can recall, one of you

3 gentlemen. I think it was Mr. Bonomy who put that question.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. Very well. Deal with it as briefly

5 as possible.

6 MR. NICE: Well, Your Honour, I hesitated to see what was coming.

7 It doesn't seem to me that even if I had adopted as a challenge a question

8 from the Bench on this topic that would make this material admissible, for

9 it's simply and clearly the expression of view by someone else sent out

10 through the newspaper. And in our respectful submission, and I repeat, I

11 don't want ever to be seen to be trying to shut this accused out of the

12 material he wants to put in if it's admissible. I recognise the problems

13 of objections which regularly take more time than they save because of

14 what follows from my initial objection, but the Chamber may recall that

15 there were significant limitations placed on our adducing additional

16 material in re-examination. I'm reminded, for example, of a rather

17 material file we wanted to put in with Lilic in his re-examination,

18 refused. In our submission, the Chamber should be conservative in the

19 liberty it allows this accused to add material to all they have to deal

20 with and will have nil or almost nil evidential value.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: It was a question that I had raised, and I will

22 allow the accused to deal with it very briefly.

23 Very briefly, and let's see whether the witness can say anything

24 about the newspaper article. If he can't, then we will not admit it.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Robinson, but I

Page 36484

1 really must draw attention to what Mr. Nice said. He says that whatever

2 is said here is irrelevant. For him, it is irrelevant when he introduces

3 completely meaningless tabs about the content of United Nations

4 Resolutions which is treated as if it was confidential, and then you can

5 see that everything was published in the newspapers even before this

6 Resolution was passed, and then he says it's not relevant. This is all

7 part of his mystification. Why should something be public if it can be

8 confidential? That's his logic. And I think you should draw his

9 attention to this.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Ramush Haradinaj --

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, do I not want this tit-for-tat,

13 and the parties should try to refrain from raising objections which will

14 only trigger further comments from the other party.

15 Mr. Nice, I don't wish to hear anything more about it. I don't

16 think any offence was done to you.

17 MR. NICE: There was no offence, Your Honour, and can I explain?

18 This is one of the problems the accused is facing through not taking legal

19 advice. The legal basis for the adoption of the evidence, which will be

20 well understood to Your Honours, is something that the accused seems to

21 have missed, and it may be that if I can't help, maybe Mr. Kay can explain

22 it to him at the interval.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Mr. Kay, no doubt, will have heard that.

24 Proceed, Mr. Milosevic. Let us move on. And how long do you plan

25 to be with this witness? How much longer?

Page 36485

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hope not more than half an hour,

2 Mr. Robinson, unless I'm constantly interrupted. I understand the reasons

3 for these interruptions, so I don't mind.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. The assertion you made here has been put forward by Haradinaj

6 himself in a much more clear manner.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please put this on the ELMO.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. It is mentioned here that the Serbian forces had used force -

10 Kijevo, Decani, Prilep are mentioned - and he says to usurp Kijevo and

11 continue with Decani and Prilep. All this shows that they were the ones

12 that were doing this and the police were not using force

13 disproportionately, that they were simply responding to this. Things were

14 being turned upside down. The Albanians were supposed to be attacking the

15 Serbian forces wherever possible.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, put a question to the witness.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Milosevic please slow down. The

18 interpreters cannot keep up.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Mr. Jovanovic, are you aware that NATO and the KLA were a single

21 army, as Haradinaj says?

22 A. I am aware of this for several reasons, some public, some not.

23 And many of these reasons were published in books written by the former

24 KLA leaders and in the writings of some Western newspapers, as well as an

25 officer of the Albanian army in Albania who took part in the fighting and

Page 36486

1 in organising the passage of the KLA from Albania into Kosovo in order to

2 pull out soldiers of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to make the NATO

3 destruction easier, to facilitate it.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Jovanovic, is that the sole source of your

5 knowledge of that matter?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About the battle at Kosara? That's

7 a village near the border between Albania and Kosovo and Metohija. There

8 are many statements about this.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: The question you're being asked is in relation to

10 the relationship between NATO and the KLA, and is your sole source of

11 knowledge about that what other people have written? Because if it is, it

12 seems to me a pointless exercise asking you about it.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are public matters, and even

14 the sparrows on the roofs knew about them. The contacts between the KLA

15 and NATO were very close.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: You are the foreign secretary of the country and we

17 have you here and there are relevant things you can be asked about that

18 were within your personal knowledge and you're being asked about what was

19 in the newspaper.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All the world papers wrote about the

21 battle at Kosara and yet Albanians from Albania passed over into Kosovo

22 and Metohija and that this action was synchronised with the NATO bombing.

23 What further proof do you need, Your Honours, in order to be convinced of

24 this? The Western press wrote about it extensively, and it's a fact that

25 the KLA, on the ground in Kosovo during the bombing, had satellite

Page 36487












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13 English transcripts.













Page 36488

1 telephone connections at their disposal. They could only have received

2 this from Western countries, nobody else.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you have explored this matter

4 sufficiently. Move on to another issue for re-examination.

5 JUDGE KWON: Can we get the date of this newspaper article?

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know. It's on the ELMO now.

7 You can take a look at the date. This is an excerpt from the book written

8 by Ramush Haradinaj who wrote about how the war for Kosovo and Metohija

9 was prepared. The previous page - would you please put it on the ELMO -

10 where it says -- where it says quite clearly what he said, that NATO and

11 the KLA are a single army. Thank you very much.

12 It's the 9th of January, 1993. Excuse me. This was published on

13 the 9th of January, 2003.

14 So the facts are coming to light, and ultimately the truth will be

15 clear to everyone. I do not know if you will be among those to whom the

16 truth will become clear.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, proceed with your re-examination,

18 otherwise I'll stop it.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Mr. Jovanovic, are you aware that, according to United Nations

21 documents, the KLA was supposed to be disarmed?

22 A. Resolution 1244, regulating the end of the war and the arrival of

23 the civilian and military international mission on that territory, points

24 out that the KLA must be demilitarised. Demilitarisation, in my view and

25 in the interpretation of those who understand these matters, means

Page 36489

1 disarming.

2 Q. Do you know that the KLA, which included all these murderers and

3 criminals who even took photographs of themselves with severed Serbian

4 heads, became the so-called Kosovo Protection Corps, and they remained

5 under arms but only changed their name?

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Don't answer. It doesn't arise out of

7 cross-examination.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Mr. Nice said that I used, as he said, Serbian nationalism in

11 order to further my career. Are you aware that in 1989 I was the

12 president of the Republic of Serbia?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Or, rather, at that time the president of the Presidency of

15 Serbia, and a year later, at these multi-party elections that took place,

16 I became the president of Serbia?

17 A. Yes. I think that in 1989 you were the president of the

18 Presidency, a collective body, and --

19 Q. And that's the position I held when I spoke at Gazimestan and

20 afterwards I was elected. So I was holding the top post in Serbia. Is

21 that in dispute?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Well, how could I have furthered my career? Where else could I

24 have gone? How could I have been promoted?

25 A. Well, it's not clear to me either, because you were already at the

Page 36490

1 top.

2 Q. Well, it isn't clear to anyone.

3 MR. NICE: The accused's questions are probably valueless, and the

4 answers, but he also doesn't accurately characterise the way I put the

5 Prosecution case. I maintain, of course, that his assumption and

6 retention of power is in answer to certain constituencies, and I express

7 myself quite cautiously, carefully.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic; move quickly.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. I will move on.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Mr. Jovanovic, you were asked about the Cutileiro plan. In the

12 negotiations on the Cutileiro plan, did anyone participate from Yugoslavia

13 or Serbia?

14 A. No.

15 Q. In these negotiations which were organised by Ambassador

16 Cutileiro, and he was told to do so by the Conference on Yugoslavia, were

17 only three sides participating from Bosnia and Herzegovina without the

18 presence of anyone from Yugoslavia, from Croatia, or from any other

19 country outside Bosnia and Herzegovina?

20 A. This was a tripartite meeting, and only the three constituent

21 nations in Bosnia and Herzegovina were present, and the negotiations were

22 chaired by Ambassador Cutileiro. There was nobody else present there.

23 Q. And those three sides agreed on their own, with Cutileiro's

24 mediation, that the plan should be adopted before any kind of hostilities

25 broke out. Is this correct?

Page 36491

1 A. Yes. This plan was called the document on the constitutional

2 order of Bosnia and Herzegovina on cantonal principles, or something to

3 that effect.

4 Q. Please look at tab 22, which refers to the year 1993. I am

5 interested only in one very brief excerpt towards the end, where it says

6 all the blame is one-sidedly again being shifted onto the Bosnian Serbs,

7 and this is given emphasis. "The condemnation of the Bosnian Croats is

8 very mild although the Russians asked that the battles in Central Bosnia

9 and Mostar be condemned, because at that time there was also a war between

10 the Croats and the Muslims." So here, too, all the blame is being shifted

11 onto the Bosnian Serbs.

12 MR. NICE: Sorry, this is all comment. If you look at tab 22,

13 what the accused has just put onto the record, unless I'm missing it, is

14 entirely his comment preparatory for a question. I don't make these

15 objections often, but really he must be kept to comprehensible questions.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, ask a question and avoid the

17 comments. Avoid the preparatory comments.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am afraid that there is a

19 misunderstanding, Mr. Robinson, because what I read out is not a comment.

20 It's a quotation from tab 22, a quotation. It says that all the blame is

21 being -- "As a result of that, the adopted communique was not balanced,

22 bias and on the front-burner they put the blame on the Bosnian Serbs."

23 This is towards the end of the document.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: That having been clarified, what is the question?

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

Page 36492

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Can it be seen from this document also that there was a continuous

3 double standard approach? We saw in tab 8 --

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, no. That's not permissible. Next question.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. I will reformulate my

6 question.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. Jovanovic, we saw yesterday when we analysed the

9 Secretary-General's report and the Resolution introducing sanctions, that

10 the report said that the KLA had withdrawn but the Croatian forces had

11 remained in Bosnia. In the Resolution, sanctions were imposed on Serbia

12 while the Croats were only mildly warned that they should withdraw their

13 forces from Bosnia.

14 In this telegram, we see that all the blame is being shifted onto

15 the Serbian side while the Croatians are only given a very mild warning.

16 Is this something that runs through the entire Yugoslav crisis?

17 A. The line taken by the United Nations towards the Bosnian Serbs was

18 always more severe than towards the Bosnian Croats, not to mention the

19 Bosnian Muslims who were almost never criticised. And this was something

20 that constantly ran through the whole process.

21 Whether this was a result of developments on the ground, it's hard

22 to say, but it's true that there was pronounced hostility towards the

23 Bosnian Serbs which ran through all these documents, while on the other

24 hand the Bosnian Croats and the Bosnian Muslims, when they fought among

25 themselves, and they did so very cruelly at that time, this was never

Page 36493

1 practically reflected in the documents, this tripartite civil war, and no

2 appeals were made for this to end.

3 Q. Mr. Jovanovic, yesterday to Mr. Nice's question you said that you

4 had read all these tabs. Perhaps you have. Perhaps you've read them in

5 more detail than I have because I had less time. So please tell me this:

6 Am I understanding it correctly, namely, that in all of these tabs

7 pertaining to events mentioned in the contents of the Resolutions which

8 deal with Srebrenica, do these documents constantly mention only Bosnian

9 Serbs but not Yugoslavia? Did you find Yugoslavia ever mentioned in these

10 documents?

11 A. If you are referring to the UN documents, then I did not find the

12 mention of Yugoslavia in those documents, rather only the criticism

13 corrected at Bosnian Serbs and their conduct.

14 Q. Mr. Nice said that you had to know on the 12th of July about what

15 was going on, and he asked you about what steps you had taken in relation

16 to this gravest crime, as he called it, which took place in Srebrenica. I

17 will now show you the cable sent by Mr. Akashi on the 12th of July. I

18 will not quote everything, but I will put it on the ELMO. This telegram,

19 this cable is Exhibit 713, as is indicated in the upper corner. 28th of

20 July, 2004 is the date when it was admitted. Therefore, you already have

21 the document.

22 On the 12th of July, therefore, Akashi writes at the end of the

23 first paragraph: "There had been no reports of physical mistreatment."

24 MR. NICE: Your Honour, we probably need a copy of this on the

25 overhead projector, and it's not sufficient for the accused, with his

Page 36494

1 characteristic disdain, simply to say that, well, you've got it, I don't

2 need to do anything about it. If he's going to present a case, he's got

3 to apply the practices and rules that accommodate the Bench.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I understand he's going to put it on the

5 ELMO. Let it be placed on the ELMO.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please go ahead.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. Jovanovic, you can see to your left, because what I marked

9 with yellow highlighter may not be visible on the screen.

10 A. Yes, it is visible.

11 Q. Yes. Yes, it is visible. This sentence that I read out, "There

12 have been no reports of physical mistreatment." This means that the

13 United Nations, which had several hundred soldiers there from the Dutch

14 Battalion, they also had their representatives, they had no reports

15 regarding this.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: I will not allow that. That's a comment. What

17 is the question?

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Mr. Jovanovic, we will cover the chronology from that time on.

20 Did it occur to anyone at the time that any crimes had been committed

21 there?

22 A. I had no information. It had never occurred to me until much

23 later, when they started discussing it and reporting it, first of all at

24 the UN and also in the international media. However, immediately after

25 the fall of Srebrenica, we had no information. At least, I had no

Page 36495












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13 English transcripts.













Page 36496

1 information that some terrible things had happened there.

2 Q. Very well. It has been frequently mentioned here that in Bosnia

3 and Herzegovina, not to mention Serbia, Yugoslavia, a policy of forcible

4 expulsion was pursued as well as ethnic cleansing. You have mentioned

5 several times what I suppose is known to everyone, that there were crimes

6 committed and that there was violence on all three sides.

7 I will now show you a document dated 19th of August, 1992. 1992.

8 It has been translated into English.

9 You can put the English version on the ELMO, and I will be reading

10 out from the Serbian original [Previous translation continues]

11 ... [In English] same text.

12 [Interpretation] It says here -- I did not check the quality of

13 the translation, but it should be good. So it says on the 19th of August,

14 1992, president of the Serbian republic, as it was called at the time,

15 Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Radovan Karadzic, signed this

16 document in August of 1992. This was sent to the Main Staff of the army

17 of Republika Srpska, Ministry of the Interior, and all security centres.

18 And then it says: "In accordance with our document of the 13th of July,

19 1992, pertaining to compliance with norms of international laws of war, I

20 once again reissue the order."

21 And then I will skip over this bit where it says that everybody

22 has to abide by the Geneva Conventions, especially the third and the

23 fourth one, and I would like to draw your attention to point 3.

24 Therefore, he orders that the "forcible expulsion of people and

25 other illegal measures against civilian population be prevented. Any

Page 36497

1 certificates on the selling of property or statements by refugees that

2 they would not return have no legal validity and declared invalid."

3 This is what is stated in the order by Radovan Karadzic. And at

4 the end, it states the following: "The general position is that all

5 police organs and all army organs --" or, rather, "all organs of the army

6 and police in the area of responsibility are duty-bound to thoroughly

7 investigate any cases where there's reason to believe that the norms of

8 international humanitarian laws had been violated."

9 It says in item 5: "All members of police of the Serbian republic

10 have to provide all assistance to the representatives of the Red Cross,

11 UNHCR, and other humanitarian organisations. Full security must be

12 ensured for these persons as well as full access to all prisons where

13 prisoners of war are held."

14 Therefore, my question is as follows: This is in line with what

15 we have heard from the leadership of Republika Srpska, and we have

16 documents to confirm it.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is the question? I mean, this -- what you

18 have read is an order prohibiting forced transfer. What is the question

19 in relation to that order?

20 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'm on my feet. I also observe the

21 question, I think, if I understood it correctly, took about four minutes

22 to read out, three or four minutes. Not the question --

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: You have taken an equally long time to read

24 out --

25 MR. NICE: Sometimes, yes, Your Honour, but when there is no

Page 36498

1 sustainable question at the end of it, it really is --

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us hear the question. Let's hear the

3 question concerning this order.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is very simple, but this does not

5 deal only with forcible transfer or expulsion. I would like to remind

6 you, Mr. Robinson, that --

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's hear the question.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Mr. Jovanovic, according to our information, did the leadership of

11 Republika Srpska try and did it take measures to prevent this from

12 happening, and did it punish the perpetrators?

13 A. Yes. We constantly received assurances from them that that kind

14 of conduct was banned. I know about a year or so ago a book was published

15 where all such instructions and orders by Radovan Karadzic were published,

16 as well as his correspondence with international dignitaries.

17 Q. No. I'm not now speaking about the book which was published a

18 year or two ago. I'm now referring to this order from August of 1992.

19 Therefore, my question is very clear: According to our knowledge at the

20 time, did the leadership of Republika Srpska try and did it in fact

21 undertake measures in order to prevent any kind of an ethnic

22 discrimination and to ensure compliance with Geneva Conventions and so on?

23 A. Yes. We received such assurances from them.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I ask that this be exhibited because

25 this is a document.

Page 36499

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Jovanovic, one of the questions you were asked

2 there was whether the Republika Srpska tried and took measures to prevent

3 this from happening and did it punish the perpetrators. Can you give me

4 an example of the punishment of perpetrators that you were aware of at the

5 time?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I personally am not familiar with

7 all of the events in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Perhaps there were such cases in

8 the course of the war, but I'm unable now to give you more details.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: It would appear all you're doing is confirming

10 very, very leading questions put to you by the accused without having any

11 personal knowledge of the circumstances at all, and it concerns me that

12 these may well be valueless answers and valueless questions.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not present in Bosnia

14 throughout the entire period of the war except that I was in Bijeljina on

15 one night. Therefore, I was not kept abreast of the developments there.

16 And you cannot expect me to say any more than what I know.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Mr. Jovanovic --

19 JUDGE BONOMY: My criticism is not aimed at you, it's aimed at the

20 pointlessness of the question.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, your last question. We must bring

22 this to an end.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have several more questions,

24 Mr. Robinson. I don't know why this should be my last one.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: I will only allow one more.

Page 36500

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have several more questions. Are

2 you not going to allow me to put them?

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: You can put one more question and we'll bring it

4 to an end.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, then. I will ask the

6 next question that's on my list. It is very difficult now for me to

7 distinguish between what is important and what isn't.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Please take a look at tab 51. This is the Secretary-General's

10 report. I would like to draw your attention to the date of this report,

11 the 30th of August.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: We don't have 51, Mr. Milosevic. We stop at 50.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's in the binder provided by

14 Mr. Nice. These are Mr. Nice's papers, not mine.

15 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ... it was an existing

16 exhibit.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Yes, we have found it.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Therefore, at the very beginning, it says on page 1, among other

20 things, it says: "My Special Representative raised the issue in a meeting

21 with President Milosevic..." It deals with the issue then. "Various

22 efforts have been made by my Special Representative to obtain access for

23 UNPROFOR --" therefore, access for UNPROFOR -- "to Srebrenica and Zepa ...

24 My Special Representative raised the issue in a meeting with President

25 Milosevic on [In English] 12 August 1995, in which he referred to the

Page 36501

1 commitment made by General Mladic to General Smith on the question of ICRC

2 access to the missing from Srebrenica. President Milosevic promised to do

3 all he could to convince General Mladic to grant such ICRC access but

4 indicated that he was having difficulties communicating with General

5 Mladic."

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Jovanovic, were you at this meeting, the

7 meeting between the representative and Mr. Milosevic?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that I was no longer

9 minister of foreign of affairs at the time and that Mr. Milutinovic

10 probably attended the meeting.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. The dispatch sent on the 14th of August, so more than one month

13 after the Srebrenica events. So this is the dispatch sent by Akashi.

14 This is your Exhibit 714.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, what is the question?

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to draw his attention to this

17 dispatch, Mr. Akashi's dispatch sent to Annan at the UN, who at the time

18 was under-secretary for operations, I assume.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. He explains: "I suggested that recent allegations appearing in

21 the press about human rights --" "[In English] I suggest -- I suggested

22 that recent allegations --" [Interpretation] So he says, "I suggested --"

23 this is in Akashi's dispatch sent to the UN on the 14th of August. I

24 suppose that based on that this report was written. And at the end of the

25 first paragraph of this dispatch, and I will put it on the ELMO: "[In

Page 36502

1 English] I suggested that recent allegations appearing in the press about

2 human rights violations made such access all the more important."

3 JUDGE KWON: Put it on the ELMO and read it. Do it in an orderly

4 way.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

6 JUDGE KWON: Is this Exhibit 714 or 13? Can we see the upper part

7 of the exhibit? Yes, 714.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Jovanovic, do you have personal knowledge of

9 this?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the time, I was still holding the

11 office of the minister. I was in that position for several more days

12 after that. And if the telegram arrived while I was there, then, yes, I

13 was aware of it.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, what I'm trying to

15 show here is that on the 12th of August, the events in Srebrenica were not

16 known. And if we take a look at the UN Security Council Resolution at tab

17 57 --

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't want a speech. Just ask a question of

19 the witness.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. Jovanovic, does this document discuss at all and does this

22 document provide any information about something grave having happened at

23 Srebrenica? Did anybody know about this at the time?

24 A. We knew nothing about it. And this shows that Mr. Akashi didn't

25 know anything about it either and that he was putting in efforts to learn

Page 36503












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13 English transcripts.













Page 36504

1 something more.

2 Q. Please tell me, is it clear that even on the 21st of December,

3 1995, when the Security Council adopted Resolution 1034, therefore in

4 December of 1995, this Resolution states: "Affirms that violations of

5 humanitarian rights in the area of Srebrenica, Zepa, Banja Luka, Sanski

6 Most from July to October 1995 must be fully and properly investigated [In

7 English] by the relevant United Nations and other international

8 organisations and institutions."

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: What's the question?

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. So it is being said that an investigation is necessary, and this

12 is being said at the time when international forces are only a month away

13 from entering Bosnia and Herzegovina.

14 A. That corroborates what you are saying, namely that all these were

15 rumours that needed to be confirmed by international factors. Nobody knew

16 definitively that something had happened there.

17 Q. When we condemned the attack on Srebrenica, was our motivation

18 that it was an attack on a UNPA, that it was --

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: That concludes the re-examination.

20 Mr. Jovanovic, that concludes your testimony. Thank you for coming to the

21 Tribunal to give it, and you may now leave.

22 We will exhibit the document which Mr. Milosevic wanted to have

23 exhibited.

24 JUDGE KWON: Karadzic's order.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: The order by Karadzic.

Page 36505

1 You may now leave, Mr. Jovanovic.

2 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D279.

3 MR. OBRADOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there is no need for

4 me to stay here. It was a privilege and honour to represent my country

5 here. Thank you.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you for your presence.

7 [The witness withdrew]

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Before the next witness is called, Mr. Milosevic

9 -- did you have something to say?

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I have an observation

11 to make, a complaint, rather. I believe it is completely justified, but

12 it is up to you to judge.

13 Yesterday during the examination by Mr. Nice, and several months

14 ago when we had before us Witness Diego Arria, I believe his name was,

15 both times, in a completely inappropriate manner, a document of the

16 International Court of Justice on provisional measures was used. My

17 complaint is that did you not reprimand Mr. Nice for the way he was using

18 it, because the International Court of Justice did not go into the merits

19 of the case, and he only made certain -- quoted certain claims made by

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: I have stopped that, Mr. Milosevic. If you had

22 an objection to make about the use by Mr. Nice of the ICJ case, then you

23 should have made the objection at that time.

24 Before the next witness is called, I want to --

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 36506

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Before the next witness is called, I want to use

2 this opportunity to express the Trial Chamber's views and conclusions

3 about the use of time by the parties. My first remarks are addressed

4 primarily to the accused, and the second set of remarks will be addressed

5 primarily to the Prosecutor.

6 Mr. Milosevic, so far you have called 19 witnesses. Your recent

7 witness list was a list of 27 witnesses. On your own estimate, these 27

8 witnesses would utilise 108 hours, and at four hours per day that would be

9 27 days. When that is added to the two-thirds of the time for

10 cross-examination allotted to the Prosecutor, that would be 18 days and

11 make a total of 45 days for these 27 witnesses. So far you have used 30

12 days. So that at the end of the examination of the list of 27 witnesses,

13 you would have used a total of 75 days or half of the assigned period of

14 150 days, and in that period you would only have called 27 plus the 19

15 witnesses already called, making a total of 46.

16 What is even more alarming is that the witness list, your recent

17 witness list, comprises Kosovo witnesses so that at the end of 75 days or

18 half the time allotted, on the most optimistic estimate, only one-third of

19 the Defence case would have been presented.

20 Now, I looked at the witness list, and I'm troubled by the time

21 that you have set for some of these witnesses. Four hours for three

22 witnesses. I mean that is each. For two witnesses, six hours each. For

23 another two, seven hours each. And for another three, nine hours each,

24 and for one witness, 12 hours.

25 Is this the best use of the time given to you? And more

Page 36507

1 significantly, more importantly, is this the best use of the Court's time?

2 And we say no. At this rate, it is very likely that at the end of 150

3 days, no more than 100 or 110 or 120 witnesses would have been called.

4 The Chamber makes it clear that you must bear, you will bear

5 ultimately the responsibility for this, but we will monitor

6 examination-in-chief carefully to ensure that time is properly used.

7 Evidence must be relevant and must not be unduly repetitive.

8 Now, Mr. Nice, the Trial Chamber's allocation of time was based on

9 the expectation that, given your experience and professionalism,

10 cross-examination would not take up more than two-thirds of the time used

11 for examination-in-chief, but this premise has not been borne out in

12 practice. Our statistics show that cross-examination has consumed as much

13 as 80 per cent of the time for examination-in-chief. You're also

14 introducing many documents in cross-examination, and this has the effect

15 of lengthening the re-examination. You will attend to that, but the Trial

16 Chamber will also be monitoring strictly the introduction of items in

17 cross-examination.

18 The Chamber brings these matters to the attention of all the

19 parties, and this includes the assigned counsel. The Court's time must be

20 used efficiently and well. We are not satisfied in particular,

21 Mr. Milosevic, that your use of your time is the best use of that time,

22 and hereafter, we intend to be very strict but fair in monitoring the use

23 of the time allocated to you.

24 We're keeping the use of the Court's time under review. We are

25 not satisfied with the pace of the trial. And I should say that in due

Page 36508

1 course, one of the measures that we may very well have to consider is to

2 seek the advice of the medical personnel as to whether the accused, who

3 has been in good health for several months, can work for four days per

4 week for three weeks per month.

5 I also want to mention to the accused that he has an assigned

6 counsel. The Appeals Chamber has illustratively listed some of the ways

7 in which assigned counsel can be of assistance to the accused, and

8 naturally the Trial Chamber's approach to the use of time must obviously

9 take account of this facility which is available to the accused.

10 Mr. Nice.

11 MR. NICE: One observation. Of course we'll do all we can to

12 ensure that the allotted period of time, two-thirds for both

13 cross-examination and administrative matters I think was the original

14 scheme, will be met or bettered, and indeed with the last witness I think

15 I'm under 50 per cent of the time that he took by my cross-examination.

16 The practice that I was able to introduce with this last witness

17 of the pre-reading of Defence exhibits existing or new that I propose to

18 ask a witness to deal with is one that it seemed to me bore some fruit

19 with the witness because certainly on the second day he was able more

20 swiftly to deal with propositions than would have been the case had he had

21 to be taken through exhibits, and I would be grateful at some stage for

22 being informed, if the Chamber feels it can, as to whether pre-reading is

23 something the Chamber finds helpful particularly with an eye to judicial

24 economy.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: It is helpful, but I think it is something to be

Page 36509

1 addressed on a case-by-case basis.

2 MR. NICE: Certainly. But looking at the witness list, we see

3 several witnesses of the kind for whom pre-reading of some of the

4 meetings, for example, will be very valuable, but we'll do our best to

5 comply, of course.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I mentioned the time that you have

7 estimated for some of the witnesses; four hours, six hours, seven hours,

8 nine hours, and for one 12 hours. You should try to aim to have a

9 witness's testimony finished as quickly as possible. Do you really need

10 that length of time for examination-in-chief? For some witnesses you have

11 an hour and a half. I mean, that's fine. But I would say that you should

12 aim to have a witness not spend more than a day in examination-in-chief.

13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Milosevic, you said earlier that you would lead

14 the evidence orally, not relying on witness statements. However, for the

15 sake of time - I'm speaking for myself - I would like to advise you now to

16 consider presenting some part of your evidence by way of written

17 statements using the regime of Rule 89(F) or 92 bis.

18 Take Danica Marinkovic, for example, who appears on page 3 of your

19 witness schedule. According to the schedule, you are saying that you

20 anticipate nine hours for your examination-in-chief. I understand that

21 she's the judge who undertook the investigation into the Racak incident.

22 I know that she's an important witness. However, I don't understand why

23 you should spend nine hours or two and a half days only for your

24 examination-in-chief while she has nothing to say about the acts and

25 conduct of yourself. As a judge, I believe she must be capable of

Page 36510

1 producing a written statement of what she had seen and experienced in a

2 professional way so that you can concentrate in your examination-in-chief

3 on important matters that should be dealt with orally and on introducing

4 exhibits that should be tendered through her, substituting other

5 peripheral matters with the written statement. In such a way, I believe

6 you would be able to conclude your examination-in-chief in a session or

7 two, saving much of your precious time.

8 I advise you to bear this in mind in planning the future witness

9 schedule.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may say something,

11 Mr. Robinson.


13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First of all, I would like to point

14 out that your advice is useful indeed, and I will endeavour to make the

15 most rational use of my time possible. However, I do believe you should

16 bear in mind that objectively speaking, at this moment, since I have never

17 really had any time for pure preparation, I am not now working three days

18 a week. I have to work five or six days a week practically because I have

19 to see witnesses I didn't have the opportunity to see before, and before,

20 to be honest, I met as many witnesses as I could. Sometimes I met with

21 two or three witnesses a day. And the opposing party, as you know,

22 sometimes had five or ten.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: That is very relevant to one of the comments that

24 I made. I have heard what you said, but in assessing it, I cannot ignore

25 the fact that you have available to you assigned counsel, and you are not

Page 36511












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13 English transcripts.













Page 36512

1 making use of the assigned counsel. You have your associates as well.

2 So you cannot be heard to plead lack of time for preparation when

3 you're not making use of a facility that is available to you. The Appeals

4 Chamber has ruled on this matter. So you cannot -- that will not avail

5 you. It will not avail you with this Trial Chamber to make that argument,

6 and I will totally ignore that argument in assessing questions of time in

7 relation to you.

8 If you make use of assigned counsel --

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- and you run into a difficulty with time, that's

11 a different matter. But when you do not make use of assigned counsel, you

12 cannot be heard to say -- you cannot be heard to complain about lack of

13 time.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, my associates prepare

15 for me a great deal of documentation and perform a lot of preliminary

16 interviews on my behalf, but you will not contest that I need to see

17 witnesses personally as well. I need to speak to them. So the two

18 working days that are left for me after trial are enough to see two

19 witnesses. I cannot interview 20. You must bear in mind the physical

20 constraints I work under.

21 But let me continue. What you just said, the calculations you

22 made, the arithmetic and the sums you made only show how unrealistic the

23 assigned time is. That's one point.

24 The second point is let us assume that these sums are correct.

25 Based on the practice of Mr. Nice, who made maximum use of Rules 92 bis

Page 36513

1 and 89(F) to introduce a huge amount of material with minimum preliminary

2 examination, it was done to the detriment of the public. I wish to

3 present witnesses here to be heard by the public. I don't wish to unload

4 a truckful of documents.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues]... detriment of

6 the public because the Trial Chamber ruled that it was permissible, it was

7 evidence that could be given in that way, and naturally the Trial Chamber

8 would have taken into consideration the right of the public to hear the

9 evidence. But I observe that you have selectively, in your recent

10 comments, ignored what I have had to say about assigned counsel.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What do you mean, Mr. Robinson? In

12 which way did I do that?

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: You have not mentioned utilising the services of

14 assigned counsel. You have only mentioned your associates. Assigned

15 counsel can help in the preparation of witnesses. That's one of the

16 matters that the Appeals Chamber specifically mentioned. And there are

17 many other ways in which assigned counsel can assist you.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, the assigned counsel

19 that you imposed on me represent you, not me.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: I will not hear that. I will not hear that.

21 That is an absolutely unacceptable comment, to say that the assigned

22 counsel represent me and represent the Chamber. It is a statement which

23 is totally out of order and cannot be substantiated.

24 MR. KAY: May I just affirm Your Honour's comments there.


Page 36514

1 MR. KAY: But as well, under the order of the Trial Chamber, it's

2 important to bear in mind the accused had an opportunity to appoint his

3 own lawyer to represent him. It doesn't begin and end at Ms. Higgins and

4 myself. He can have as many lawyers here as he likes, I presume, if they

5 were engaged in the case. It doesn't begin and end in me at all.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's perfectly true.

7 Mr. Milosevic, you have heard what I have had to say on behalf of

8 the Trial Chamber. I want you to bear it in mind. Do not expect any

9 lenience, any accommodation on account of matters relating to time when

10 you do not utilise the services which are available to you. And I'm

11 warning you of that.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, can you tell me really

13 that somebody, even if they are helping me, can double or triple the time

14 spent here? We spend a certain amount of time here. One day is still one

15 day.

16 I examine witnesses who could, assuming they are helping me, do

17 other jobs at the time; examine witnesses, prepare interviews, et cetera.

18 You are not saying that I'm asking irrelevant questions here or that I'm

19 wasting time. The witnesses who appear here -- who have appeared here so

20 far, answered questions which are important for coming to the truth of the

21 matter, and it will remain so in the future. And it is certainly in my

22 interest --

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, we have discussed this matter

24 sufficiently. You have heard what I have had to say. Call your next

25 witness now.

Page 36515

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Then I call witness Vukasin Andric.

2 [The witness entered court]

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

5 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.


9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please begin, Mr. Milosevic.

11 Examined by Mr. Milosevic:

12 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Dr. Andric.

13 A. Good morning, Mr. President.

14 Q. In order to make rational use of time, I shall say a few things

15 about you at the beginning and you will only answer yes or no. You were

16 born in Kosovo and Metohija; correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. In the village of Raka Urosevac?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. 1950?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You are a medical doctor, professor at the school of medicine at

23 the university?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You did your entire schooling in Kosovo except for university

Page 36516

1 studies in Belgrade?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. Tell me now, where were you employed? What is your career record?

4 As far as I can see here, you came, after your schooling and

5 specialisation, back to Kosovo and Metohija to work as a doctor.

6 A. In October 1973, I started working in the institute of labour

7 medicine in Pristina, in the electrical company of Kosovo.

8 Q. So all the time after completing your university studies you

9 worked there until to date?

10 A. With a brief -- with the exception of a brief period in 1978, I

11 worked all the time in Kosovo and Metohija. Correction, 1988.

12 Q. You became professor at the medical faculty in Kosovo in 1981.

13 A. Yes. I passed all the steps from assistant professor to full-time

14 professor, and I am still a full-time professor at the medical faculty of

15 the university in Pristina.

16 Q. Thank you, Professor. Throughout this time, you served as the

17 secretary for health in Kosovo and Metohija on the government?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. We will now move to the subject matter of your testimony. Tell

20 me, what is the national -- what was the national composition of the

21 employees in health institutions in the territory of Kosovo and Metohija

22 before the NATO aggression?

23 A. In the health institutions of Kosovo and Metohija, many doctors

24 and health workers were employed who were non-Serbs; Albanians,

25 Montenegrins, Muslims, Turks, the Roma, et cetera.

Page 36517

1 Q. Mr. Andric, would you please open tab 1.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Gentlemen, I hope you have this

3 entire documentation that has been translated.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. In the document under tab 1, we see a diagram of the ethnic

6 composition of the employees in public health facilities in the area of

7 the Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija as of 31st December, 1998.

8 Dr. Andric, did you provide this data?

9 A. Yes. This data was collected by my services who were employed in

10 the provincial secretariat for health.

11 Q. So this is the data collected by the provincial secretariat for

12 health pertaining to December 1998, the end of the year.

13 Therefore, as we see if we look at the total figures in the last

14 column -- will you please read out the last column.

15 A. 12.599 is the total number of employees in health services. Not

16 only strictly specialised health workers.

17 Q. Serbs, 5.591; 5.301 Albanians; 455 Montenegrins; 420 Muslims; 196

18 Turks; 69 Gorani, 360 Romas, and 18 declared as Yugoslavs, 14 foreign

19 nationals; 219 others.

20 Now, would you be so kind as to tell me, Dr. Andric, in paragraph

21 87 of the Kosovo indictment, it says: "After Kosovo's autonomy was

22 effectively revoked in 1989, the political situation in Kosovo became more

23 and more divisive. Throughout late 1990 and 1991, thousands of Kosovo

24 Albanian doctors, teachers, professors --" but I underline doctors,

25 teachers, professors, workers, et cetera -- "were dismissed from their

Page 36518

1 positions."

2 You as someone who worked in Kosovo and Metohija at the time, can

3 you confirm that Kosovo's autonomy was revoked?

4 A. No.

5 Q. How did you see it, that time of constitutional changes? How did

6 you live through that as a practising doctor, this period that witnessed

7 the revocation of Kosovo's autonomy? How did you see it as a citizen and

8 a doctor?

9 A. Kosovo's autonomy was never revoked. The amendments that were

10 introduced then only confirmed its autonomy.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I don't appreciate this desultory

12 manner of leading the witness. I thought you're asking him about the

13 statistics in relation to the doctors in health services, and you referred

14 to paragraph 87, and then you just jumped from that to deal with the

15 question of the revocation of Kosovo's autonomy. Are you finished with

16 the questioning on tab 1?

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] From the document under tab 1, as

18 you can see for yourself, Mr. Robinson, the figures speak for themselves.

19 On the last day of December 1998, 5.301 Albanians were still working,

20 whereas in paragraph 87, the claim is that doctors and health workers were

21 dismissed from their positions. That means nine years before. So those

22 who are claimed to have been dismissed nine years before are still

23 working, 5.301 of them. This is material evidence, real figures.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: It was not clear to me that you had concluded

25 your examination on that issue. Now that you have made it clear, please

Page 36519












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13 English transcripts.













Page 36520

1 continue.

2 MR. KAY: Could tab 1 be an exhibit?

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Exhibit number.

4 THE REGISTRAR: D280. Thank you.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Mr. Andric, in the middle of this paragraph that I read out to

7 you, which you don't have in front of you but it doesn't matter, it says:

8 "Throughout late 1990 and 1991, thousands of Kosovo Albanian doctors and

9 other citizens --" I'm going to ask you only about doctors because you had

10 contacts mostly in that area -- "were dismissed from their positions."

11 Are you aware, at least concerning health institutions and the

12 university, are you aware that there were any dismissals of Albanians?

13 Are you aware that Albanians as such were dismissed, or doctors as such

14 were dismissed from the circles that you moved in?

15 A. The only dismissals were in the cases of serious violations of the

16 legislation in force, specifically the law on labour and labour relations.

17 The greatest number of people consciously and deliberately violated the

18 law in order to be dismissed, but this law was not applied only to

19 Albanians. Anyone who was guilty of an infraction against this law was

20 dismissed.

21 Q. Let us demystify this law. What does it mean "violation of the

22 law"?

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Professor, do you have figures for 1989 that we

24 could compare these with, a simple factual matter to see how many people

25 left their employment? In other words, did the secretariat do the same

Page 36521

1 exercise in 1989?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't have that sort of data.

3 I have figures for 1999.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Dr. Andric, in 1989, you were serving as a doctor.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You did not have any position in the administration. You were

8 working as a doctor, treating citizens.

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. Never mind. We'll come back later to that set of questions.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Have I wrongly noted that you were actually a

12 professor by 1989, in the same position as you're in at the moment?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1989, I had a position at the

14 medical faculty. I was a young -- I was junior assistant professor. I

15 had just become a lecturer.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. You were talking about dismissals. Could you describe a case in

18 which either an Albanian or a Serb would be dismissed for violating the

19 law.

20 A. There were various cases: If you failed to appear to show up to

21 work for a month, if you refused repeatedly to perform your duties.

22 Q. In other words, those are the cases envisaged by the law on labour

23 and labour relations. If somebody doesn't show up for work for a long

24 period of time, then he or she is dismissed.

25 A. Correct.

Page 36522

1 Q. Would you say that that was a practice and the legislation that

2 was in force throughout Serbia, not only in Kosovo? For instance, the law

3 said that if you didn't show up for work for five days running without

4 producing a medical certificate, that constitutes grounds for dismissal.

5 A. Yes. That law was in force and applied to the entire Republic of

6 Serbia.

7 Q. To be more precise, and this will partially respond to

8 Mr. Bonomy's question, did some of them leave their jobs on their own

9 accord?

10 A. Yes. There were a number of such cases of people leaving their

11 jobs voluntarily.

12 Q. What was the reason for them to leave their jobs voluntarily?

13 A. A large number of them were already deeply involved in the

14 separatist movement. These were people who were very well situated

15 financially. They were very well off. They left their jobs, passed over

16 into parallel institutions, and opened their private practices. I'm

17 speaking of doctors now.

18 Q. We'll come to this later. The Albanians who were employed in the

19 health --

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry. Professor, can I ask you this: If the

21 wording of this paragraph that was quoted to you was different and was in

22 the following terms: "Throughout late 1990 and 1991, thousands of Kosovo

23 Albanian doctors, teachers, professors, workers, police, and civil

24 servants left their positions," would that be accurate?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A large number of them at that time,

Page 36523

1 for various reasons, left their jobs.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's time for the break. We will adjourn now for

3 20 minutes.

4 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

5 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. If I understood you correctly, a number of people left their jobs

10 of their own accord. Why?

11 A. In this way, they were defying the legal system of Serbia and at

12 the same time establishing parallel institutions. In this case I'm

13 referring to doctors and professors at the school of medicine. They

14 established their own parallel school of medicine. The doctors who were

15 well off financially, who were affluent, they opened their private

16 practices and worked in them.

17 Q. Thank you. Did those Albanians who were employed in the health

18 service and at the university and who did not wish to leave their jobs

19 continue working normally?

20 A. Yes. They continued working normally, and they had no problems

21 with the authorities whatsoever. Their only problem were their

22 co-nationals, the separatists who forced them to pay. Every month from

23 their personal funds, they had to pay a certain percentage. This was

24 racketeering. And they were put under constant pressure to leave the

25 state institutions and pass over to the parallel institutions. In this

Page 36524

1 way, both they and members of their families were mistreated.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: What percentage, Professor, of Albanians left

3 their jobs?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can say -- I don't have the

5 precise data, but, Mr. Robinson, I can only say that at the school of law,

6 approximately less than half of the Albanian professors and assistant

7 professors left the faculty of medicine, and the same goes for doctors.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. The situation you mentioned, that those who remained were put

10 under pressure and maltreated, both they and their family members, did

11 this continue until the beginning of the bombing or did it stop earlier?

12 A. It went on until the bombing began, and it even became more

13 intense.

14 Q. Tell me, what was the ratio of employed Albanians and Serbs in the

15 health institutions in Pristina?

16 A. The ratio was 1 to 1, but with reference to doctors on the entire

17 territory of Kosovo and Metohija, this was somewhat in favour of the

18 Albanians. There were somewhat more Albanians than Serbs.

19 Q. Please look at tab 2. This is the table showing the number of

20 national structure of employed health workers according to the situation

21 on the day of the 24th of March, 1992, in Kosovo and Metohija. So this is

22 the 24th of March, 1992, the time when the bombing began. 1999,

23 correction. That's in tab 2.

24 This shows doctors, dentists, pharmacists, and other health

25 workers. I assume that "other health workers" refers to nurses and other

Page 36525

1 health professionals.

2 A. Yes. Unlike the first table which shows only people employed in

3 the health sector -- or, rather, this shows only health professionals.

4 Q. And the others are auxiliary staff, such as cleaners, drivers,

5 handymen, and so-and-so forth.

6 A. Yes. They're not shown in this table.

7 Q. So this refers only to health professionals. As we can see, 2.087

8 medical doctors were employed. Of these, 1.008 were Albanians, 847 were

9 Serbs, 66 were Montenegrins, 20 were Turks, and 146 were others. Who were

10 the others?

11 A. All those who lived on the territory of Serbia. Serbia is a

12 multi-ethnic state, and the others include Macedonians, Greeks,

13 Bulgarians, Romanians, Ruthenians, Croats, and so on.

14 Q. It says here that on the 24th of March, 1999, the number of

15 employed health workers in all health institutions. There were 4.462

16 Albanians, and this is 47 per cent, while there were 5 -- 4.248 or,

17 rather, 5.002 others who were not Albanians, Serbs and others. Does that

18 include all the others?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. In tab 2 we also have the number and ethnic composition of

21 employees in the health institutions who were health professionals on the

22 24th of March, 1999, by health institution: Pristina, Istok, Pec,

23 Djakovica, Prizren, Dragas, Zvecan, Mitrovica, Gnjilane, Vitina. Is there

24 something to which you would like to draw attention?

25 A. Yes. There are several things I would like to point out.

Page 36526

1 Depending on the concentration of certain ethnic groups, the percentage of

2 employees changed. So that in Djakovica, for example, there are 605

3 Albanians and 70 Serbs.

4 Q. Let me correct you. 70 Serbs and Montenegrins.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And 605 Albanians.

7 A. Yes. Whereas in Pristina the ratio was somewhat more favourable.

8 In Prizren, for example, there were more Albanians again, in Kosovska

9 Mitrovica slightly more Serbs.

10 Q. When you say "Pristina," under number 4 it says University Health

11 Centre of Pristina. The situation favours the Serbs at the university

12 centre?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Does this have any connection with the level of education among

15 the Serbian and Albanian population?

16 A. Yes, certainly, because you could never see this ratio among the

17 employed Serbs and Albanians in health institutions in comparison with

18 other institutions such as railway, farms, and so on because there were

19 more Serbs who were highly educated and who got jobs in the -- at the

20 university.

21 Q. Very well.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Professor, there must be some difference between

23 these two tables on tab 2. The total number in the first one is 9.570.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: The total in the second one is 13.134. Can you say

Page 36527












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13 English transcripts.













Page 36528

1 why there is the difference in the total? Does the second one take

2 account of more than simply health professionals?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, precisely so. The second

4 table includes other workers as well, Mr. Bonomy.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you very much.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Very well, then. In the second table, you have practically two

8 tables, one up to the 24th of March, 1999, and the second from the 10th of

9 September, 1999. This table shows that in most of these centres except

10 for Dragas, Zvecan and Kosovska Mitrovica there were no Serbs left at all.

11 A. Yes. Unfortunately, this is the situation at present, I can say,

12 in Kosovo and Metohija. Health workers were mostly expelled from Kosovo

13 and Metohija except for Serbs in Kosovska Mitrovica and that only in the

14 northern part of Kosovska Mitrovica. The other Serb professionals were

15 expelled.

16 Q. Thank you. Tell me, all the professors and assistant lecturers at

17 Pristina University who were of Albanian ethnicity, did they leave their

18 jobs in the clinics and institutes?

19 A. No. A large of professors and assistant lecturers of Albanian

20 ethnicity remained and worked in the clinical hospital centre and the

21 institutions of the school of medicine.

22 Q. Could you give us an example according to the best of your

23 recollection of prominent Albanians who remained working at the

24 university? I wish to draw your attention to tab 3 where you drew up a

25 list of those who remained at posts in the Pristina city hospital after

Page 36529

1 1999.

2 A. Yes. I have the list here, and there is a mistake here. It says

3 1999. It should read 1991. This is a typographical error.

4 Q. Yes. I understand that.

5 A. I remember very well Professor Dzevat Nurboja who remained and who

6 taught at the Serbian school of medicine. And the same status was held by

7 Dr. Tefik Ljeci, an assistant professor from forensic medicine. And I can

8 enumerate many other eminent Albanian professors who remained after 1991

9 and worked in the medical institutes and clinics, including Professor

10 Esref Bicaku, Professor Dzemal Bajraktari, Professor Hisri Tafarshiku,

11 Professor Bedri Bakali, Professor Hamid Ramsi [phoen], Professor Meshqyre

12 Capuni-Brestovci, Professor Muharem Kutlovci, Professor Muharem Bajrami,

13 and many others.

14 Q. In tab 3 you have a list of professors and lecturers who remained

15 at the university after 1991. You have them listed by section;

16 ophthalmology, surgery, neuropsychiatry, infective diseases, pulmology,

17 internal medicine, anatomy, patophysiology, physiology, pharmacology,

18 pathological anatomy, biochemistry, forensic medicine, stomatology,

19 radiology, and so on. According to your knowledge, there's also

20 paediatrics. So they all remained at their jobs, those are the ones

21 listed in tab 3?

22 A. Yes.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Professor, going back slightly to the earlier tab,

24 in the second part of the second table, that's from the 10th of September,

25 1999, where would you appear on that table?

Page 36530

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Where would I appear on this table?

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Should you not be there somewhere?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I should not be here on this table

4 from the 10th of September. I should be but, unfortunately, I'm not. I

5 should be in Pristina.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: I thought you were still working in Pristina.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: You're not.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No, no. I left Pristina on the

10 25th of June, 1999.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm sorry. I didn't understand this.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And this is --

13 MR. KAY: Tab 2 as an exhibit.


15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. This table to which Mr. Bonomy drew attention shows that in

17 primary health care in Pristina, there is not a single Serb. In health

18 protection in Pristina there is no Serb. Transfusology in Pristina, no

19 Serb. University Health Centre in Pristina, not a single Serb.

20 Pharmaceutical institutions in Pristina, not a single Serb. In Istok,

21 again, not a single Serb. In Pec, not a single Serb. In Djakovica, not a

22 single Serb. In the health centre in Pec and the special hospital in Pec

23 and all these institutions, Prizren, Dragas -- in Dragas there are two, in

24 Zvecan there are 8, and in Kosovska Mitrovica 703 health professionals.

25 Of all the centres, there are only two Serbs and Montenegrins in Dragas,

Page 36531

1 eight in Zvecan, and 703 in Kosovska Mitrovica. That's all, as far as I

2 can see from this table. Is this information correct, sir?

3 A. Yes. Perhaps now there are a few more in Mitrovica because in the

4 meantime something has changed, but for the most part this is correct,

5 yes.

6 Q. Very well. These professors listed in tab 3 who continued working

7 after 1991, you mentioned that some of them lectured in the Serbian

8 language and continued working as health professionals. Did they have any

9 difficulties as far as the way they were treated by the administration,

10 the management, the institutions they worked in, or the authorities?

11 A. No. They had no problems whatsoever. They had exactly same

12 rights and obligations as all the other employees in those institutions.

13 Q. Very well.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Professor, these departments, who headed them?

15 Take, for example, ophthalmology. Who would have been the head of

16 ophthalmology; a Serb or an Albanian?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These two departments were headed by

18 Serbs, but I will mention, for example, biochemistry where there was an

19 Albanian professor, Burhan Dida, who was even in the management of all the

20 institutes.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: And generally, though, who were the heads of

22 these departments?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were more Serbs who were heads

24 of departments than others.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

Page 36532

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Robinson.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Now, please tell me about what you know. What guided those who

4 left their positions, and what was the reason for some Albanian professors

5 and professionals to remain working? I would like to hear both sides as

6 you know it. Therefore, what guided those who left their jobs, and what

7 guided those who remained?

8 A. Those who left their jobs were members of separatist movement --

9 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ... going to be asked

10 this sort of question. I'm not sure that we shouldn't first hear what is

11 the root to his being able to provide any kind of answer.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: He might have heard from them. He can state it

13 as a fact.

14 MR. NICE: He might have done, but in my submission we should hear

15 about this first. And also I must draw to the Chamber's attention that we

16 have to work on 65 ter summaries. A 65 ter summary makes -- makes no

17 specific reference to the medical background. It makes the most passing

18 reference to the background. Now, if I'm supposed to deal with these

19 witnesses as I wish to do, efficiently and in a compact way, without a 65

20 ter summary of the detail -- giving detail of what the evidence is going

21 to be, it's very hard for us.

22 On this particular matter, if we're going to have a summary of the

23 reasons for witnesses -- not witnesses, other people doing one thing or

24 another, it's probably going to be impossible for me to deal with it in

25 cross-examination and I shall have to make that position clear.

Page 36533

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, in relation to this question, you

2 must ascertain from the witness the source of the information as to why

3 they left. If he knows, then how did he acquire that information?

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. You have mentioned very briefly that they were linked to the

7 separatist movement. How do you know about their links with the

8 separatist movement, those people who left their jobs?

9 A. That was obvious based on everyday contacts. In addition, they

10 left their jobs, went to the illegal school of medicine. Most of them or,

11 rather, all of them who left their jobs went to the illegal medical

12 school, and in addition to that, opened private practices or private

13 clinics where they worked. These private practices and clinics could only

14 have been opened based on a prior approval of state authorities which they

15 obtained from the Ministry of Health. Based on that, they opened their

16 private medical practices and earned ten times what they would have earned

17 at state agencies. And by doing so, they benefited twice because on one

18 hand they portrayed themselves as persecuted people, people who were

19 persecuted by Serbia, which was not true, and on the other hand, they

20 increased tenfold their income and didn't have to pay taxes on that.

21 Q. All right. So in order for them to obtain licenses and permits

22 for opening private practices, the procedure for that was the same

23 everywhere in Serbia, where the Ministry of Health had to evaluate whether

24 they were qualified, whether they fulfilled all requirements in order to

25 open private practices. Was there a political criterion there or just a

Page 36534

1 professional one?

2 A. There was no political criterion there. The Ministry of Health or

3 its subordinate offices issued those permits. And I have to tell you that

4 in view of the number of such private practices, the large majority of

5 them were owned by Albanians. Very few were owned by Serbs, and all the

6 rest were Albanian.

7 Q. Very well. We have tab 4 here, and you've provided here a list of

8 professors and assistant professors of the medical school in Pristina of

9 Albanian origin who, after leaving their jobs, opened their own private

10 practices and clinics. We can see --

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are these the ones earning tenfold what they

12 would have earned working for the government, Professor? According to

13 your earlier evidence.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, sir, yes. They earned

15 ten times what they would have earned in the public health system of

16 Serbia. However, that was privilege available only to those who were

17 affluent, who had enough money to open their private practices.

18 For me, that was something that was not available to me. I could

19 only have dreamed about that.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Yes. You just used the colloquialism, what we're trying to say,

22 actually.

23 A. I was trying to say that that option was impossible for me, was

24 not available for me.

25 Q. Dr. Andric, in paragraph 88 of the Kosovo indictment, it says:

Page 36535












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Page 36536

1 "During this period, the unofficial Kosovo Albanian leadership pursued a

2 policy of non-violent civil resistance and began establishing a system of

3 unofficial, parallel institutions in the health care and education

4 sectors."

5 My question is: This phenomenon of people leaving jobs

6 voluntarily that you just described, was that an integral part of, as is

7 stated here, this non-violent resistance?

8 A. No. This deliberate voluntary leaving of jobs was aimed at

9 creating parallel institutions. They left their jobs and established

10 parallel institutions. The creation of parallel institutions in health

11 care and education sectors is a mechanism through which they pursued this

12 non-violent resistance, although I don't understand how can a resistance

13 be non-violent? In my view, every resistance has to be violent.

14 Q. Well, that is an academic issue now.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, the indictment doesn't allege that

16 the leaving of the jobs was what constituted this non-violent civil

17 resistance. So I don't know. You may be answering an allegation that is

18 not there. But continue.

19 MR. KAY: Tab 3 to be an exhibit.


21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I don't know if I

22 quoted this correctly, but it says here "... the unofficial Kosovo

23 Albanian leadership during this period pursued a policy of non-violent

24 civil resistance and began establishing a system of non-parallel

25 institutions in the health care and education sectors." I quoted this

Page 36537

1 accurately from paragraph 88. So my question was whether this deliberate

2 leaving of jobs was an integral part of this allegedly non-violent

3 resistance.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: He has answered it, so we can move on. He has

5 already answered it.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. You have also mentioned that there in fact was violence there,

8 too. Was there violence against Albanian teachers and assistant

9 professors which was used in order to force them to leave their jobs or

10 not, based on what you know?

11 A. I already answered that question partially. All of those who

12 remained were subjected to various forms of pressure. They had to pay a

13 portion of their salary, and this was mandatory. This was done every

14 month. I witnessed this myself. And they were also subjected to various

15 forms of pressure which was aimed at making them leave their jobs and

16 transferring to parallel institutions.

17 Q. All right. Those who already transferred to parallel

18 institutions, did they do that voluntarily or under pressure?

19 A. Some of them transferred voluntarily. However, most of them had

20 to transfer under pressure.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, Mr. Nice will no doubt about

22 asking about this, but I might as well ask: To whom was it mandated that

23 a portion of the salary had to be paid? You have made this allegation,

24 but you haven't given any details. So I'm asking you.

25 First, who subjected those who remained to various forms of

Page 36538

1 pressure; and secondly, to whom was a portion of the salary paid?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Judge Robinson, it was

3 paid to the leadership of the separatist movement, the separatist movement

4 of Albanians. This movement for many years, for decades, was active not

5 only in Kosovo and Metohija but also throughout other countries as well.

6 They collected contributions in order to develop the separatist movement.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: How did you acquire this information?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my clinic, every month when the

9 salaries were paid out, a man would come, a man whom I didn't know, who

10 made lists and collected money from the employees of my clinic, which was

11 ears, nose and throat clinic. This was a rule that applied to all

12 employees in the entire territory of Kosovo and Metohija and also to

13 private entrepreneurs and everybody who had an income.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. All right. Their departure from their jobs, you explained to us

16 that they left under pressure exerted by the separatist movement. Did you

17 see anybody leave their jobs under the pressure of authorities?

18 A. I have no such information. I didn't see any of such cases nor do

19 I know of any such cases.

20 Q. The leaving of jobs and everything else you describe, did it

21 create a picture, an impression that the human rights of Albanians were

22 violated or denied to them?

23 A. Certainly. It was certainly that way, because this entire

24 organisation was aimed at that, to portray themselves as victims and to

25 show to the international public this alleged persecution of Albanians in

Page 36539

1 order to use it for their goals later on.

2 Q. All right. I've mentioned to you this when I quoted the paragraph

3 where doctors, teachers are mentioned, and so on. Therefore, parallel

4 institutions were established both in the health care and education

5 sectors.

6 Do you know something about the creation of parallel institutions

7 in the education sector as well?

8 A. Yes. The parallel institutions in education were established much

9 more thoroughly and diligently than the ones in the health care sector.

10 The reason for that is very simple; because of the numbers. There were

11 many more people, and the youth had to be indoctrinated for the goals of

12 the separatist movement.

13 In addition to that, the parallel institutions in education

14 sidestepped the Republic of Serbia and its curricula. They introduced the

15 curriculum of the Republic of Albania. And by establishing parallel

16 institutions in education, they showed just what was the extent of their

17 resistance in relation to the official system of Serbia.

18 Q. All right. In the education sector, where did they -- what did

19 they emphasise especially?

20 A. They particularly emphasised geography, literature, and history.

21 Q. Why history?

22 A. Because by falsifying history, they wanted to show that they were

23 in -- their ancestors were actually the Illyrians and that they were the

24 oldest people inhabiting that area and that all other nations who arrived

25 later had no right to Kosovo, no claim to the Kosovo land.

Page 36540

1 Q. What about geography?

2 A. Geography for the simple reason that they wanted to abolish the

3 use of Serbian and Slav place names, and by doing so they wanted to show

4 that they were the oldest people who arrived to Kosovo and that everybody

5 else came later. The place names were especially named -- especially

6 changed after the Second World War, and after the arrival of the UN forces

7 to Kosovo and Metohija practically all Serb or Slav place names were

8 abolished.

9 Let me give you just several examples. Srbica became Skenderaj;

10 Glogova became Kastriot; Leposavac, where no Albanians lived ever, became

11 Albanac; Vucitrn became Vushtrri, and so on. So not a single place name

12 of Slav origin exists in Kosovo and Metohija. They have all been changed,

13 then substituted with Albanian place names.

14 Q. What about literature?

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: The transcript says especially changed after the

16 Second World War and after the arrival of the UN forces in Kosovo and

17 Metohija all Serb or Slav place names were abolished. Was the change made

18 after the Second World War or after the arrival of the UN forces or both?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for putting that question,

20 Mr. Robinson.

21 After the Second World War there was a attempt to change place

22 names and they did manage to change certain place names. They started

23 from a thesis which was pursued by Enver Hodzic during his brief rule in

24 Albania. He changed, especially in northern Albania, all Serbian place

25 names. And there were many of them, there was a majority of them there.

Page 36541

1 So he replaced them with Albanian place names and he -- he converted

2 Christians, Orthodox Christians, to Catholics and to Muslims. There were

3 attempts for many years to pursue the same policy in Kosovo and Metohija

4 after the Second World War. I can quote several examples to you.

5 Djeneral Jankovic was called Hani i Elezit.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you for that. Now, what happened after the

7 arrival of the UN forces?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the arrival of the UN forces,

9 all Serb and Slav place names were completely abolished in the territory

10 of Kosovo and Metohija. These place names simply do not exist any more.

11 Let me tell you, larger towns, such as Srbica, have been renamed. Srbica

12 became Skenderaj. Glogovac became Kastriot; Leposavac became Albanac;

13 Vucitrn became Vushtrri, and so on.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. You also mentioned literature. What can you tell us about the way

16 that literature was taught? What was their emphasis there?

17 A. Through glorifying their historical heroes in their literature,

18 they created -- they turned them into historical myths, and they used

19 those myths to educates their youth and to instill national and separatist

20 sentiments in them.

21 Q. All right. You told us that the parallel institutions in the

22 education sector were more successful than parallel institutions in the

23 health care sector, which is understandable to me because in the health

24 care sector you need professionals, experts.

25 Therefore, tell me, please, in relation to that, what was the

Page 36542

1 percentage of patients therefore - not the staff but, rather, the patients

2 - in the health services with regard to their ethnic background, patients

3 seeking medical assistance and treatment?

4 A. Throughout my career and throughout my life, I lived in Kosovo and

5 Metohija, and that percentage of patients was always 19 -- 90 per cent of

6 Albanians, 10 per cent of others. And that remained unchanged even after

7 the establishment of the so-called parallel institutions in health care.

8 Q. So 90 per cent of those who needed health care were Albanians?

9 A. Yes. And even if they had attempted to receive appropriate

10 medical assistance in parallel health care institutions, they failed and

11 had to go to public health care institutions.

12 Q. I have to remind you to speak more slowly.

13 A. So 90 per cent of our patients were Albanians. Some of them had

14 gone to private clinics and other private institutions but could not

15 resolve their problems there and had to turn to public health care

16 centres.

17 Q. Did you have the opportunity to see any case of discrimination or

18 unfair treatment on the part of health care staff in Kosovo and Metohija

19 vis-a-vis the Albanian patients who, as you said, made up 90 per cent of

20 the total?

21 A. No. The Hippocratic Oath was strictly observed. I can say that

22 in my long career, I was always deliberately more careful with Albanians

23 than with Serbs precisely in order to avoid an error that could be

24 misconstrued.

25 Q. Now, about these parallel institutions that you talked about in

Page 36543












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Page 36544

1 the education sector, in health care, what was the attitude of the

2 authorities towards them? I mean state authorities, to be more precise.

3 A. The attitude of the state authorities was decent, correct. They

4 kept trying, through legislation, to embrace them in the system of the

5 state institutions to cover them.

6 Q. Was there an agreement, an attempt to normalise the situation, an

7 agreement signed even by Rugova?

8 A. Yes, there were several attempts to normalise the situation. I

9 think the most noteworthy one was in 1996 when a mixed Albanian-Serb

10 commission was formed under the aegis of a Vatican led by Monsignor Doctor

11 Vincenzo Paglia. The name of the organisation was Sant'Egidio. Measures

12 were developed to normalise the situation, especially in university

13 institutions. However, this remained fruitless because the Albanian side

14 didn't do anything to actually implement it.

15 Q. Can you confirm that the state authorities put everything in

16 place, made available buildings and facilities and everything that was

17 necessary to implement this agreement?

18 A. Yes, I can confirm that. The Albanian side was given the building

19 of the engineering faculty, among others, the most beautiful building that

20 we have, the building of the law school, the building of the faculty of

21 arts, the teachers training college. All this -- all these facilities

22 were handed over to the Albanian side.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I'm sorry to interrupt you on a

24 procedural matter, but in relation to the remarks that I made on behalf of

25 the Chamber about time, let us try to begin with this witness whom you had

Page 36545

1 scheduled for six hours. I'd like you to try to complete the

2 examination-in-chief within four hours. We can work until 2.00 today, and

3 then you will try to finish by the end of the first session tomorrow, and

4 the Prosecutor would also be kept within limits. But I am not placing a

5 time limit on you because it was not the practice to place a time limit on

6 examination-in-chief for the Prosecutor. But I'm really trying to assist

7 you to use your time in the best way possible. So let us try and conclude

8 this witness within four hours, and we work until 2.00 and -- well, I'm

9 just understanding we can't work until 2.00 because one of our members has

10 another judicial engagement but -- yes, we'll work until 2.00, and I'm

11 encouraging you -- exhorting you to try to complete this witness by the

12 end of the first session tomorrow, which would be four hours and 15

13 minutes.

14 MR. KAY: Can tab 4 be an exhibit?


16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will do my best, Mr. Robinson. It

17 is in my interest to use as little time as possible, because I want to

18 bring as many witnesses as I can. It is definitely not in my interest to

19 prolong the examination of any witness.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. To be as clear as possible, Mr. Andric, we have already mentioned

22 these attempts by Albanian separatists, the constant efforts to attract

23 the sympathies of the international public. I want to ask you about one

24 scandal about a case and what you know about it.

25 In spring 1993, certain media, including international media, were

Page 36546

1 flooded by news about alleged poisoning of students and pupils and

2 children by some gas. This notorious scandal about the poisoning of

3 children with gas that was topical in spring 1990.

4 A. Yes. I worked as a doctor, and I witnessed all this. In spring

5 1990, more precisely beginning with March and ending with June that year,

6 the entire territory of Kosovo and Metohija was flooded by some alleged

7 poisoning of Albanian children and students. The allegation was that the

8 authorities were behind this. I will explain what was going on, because I

9 was in Pristina.

10 In most places around Pristina at the same time, about ten cars

11 would set out driving the so-called victims of poisoning, and with the

12 screeching of tyres and a lot of noise, they would stop in front of the

13 Pristina clinical centre where medical teams would be waiting with

14 stretchers. They would bring these so-called victims every day so that

15 there would be hundreds of admissions per day in the health centres. And

16 even serious patients were discharged in order to make room for these

17 newly arrived.

18 Ludicrous situations were occurring. Blood drips and IV drips

19 were placed in the pillow instead of the vein, and other ludicrous things

20 were happening.

21 There were television crews and cameras present whose task was to

22 show to the world this alleged suffering of the Albanian people in Kosovo.

23 This was common throughout Kosovo and Metohija, but Pristina was the

24 hardest hit.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have some footage to show, and I

Page 36547

1 will ask the AV booth to run it. It's under tab 5. This is just one clip

2 that I would like to introduce through this witness, but I would like to

3 point out this is only a brief segment of what was recorded, because a lot

4 of this was happening during the war, and there was very little

5 possibility to make recordings.

6 You have all been supplied with a translation of these video

7 clips?

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Tab 5, transcript.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Tab 5. And then clip by clip, you

10 will find the translations of what is being said.

11 JUDGE KWON: So we have 18 segments in total.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All this is under tab 5, but we will

13 go through them one by one, because this one refers to the poisoning

14 scandal, and the others refer to the period of the war in Kosovo.

15 [Videotape played]

16 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "It's a shame, because the Oscars are

17 being handed out tomorrow.

18 "Gashi says today that we see polymorphous symptoms today, a term

19 that he himself is unable to translate adequately or be more specific, but

20 I quote the therapy is well chosen. What remains unclear is what is a

21 well-chosen therapy for a disease that remains unknown.

22 "A reporter asks: Which therapy?

23 "Aljusi Gashi replies: The right therapy is the one that helps

24 remove those symptoms, but I don't have it here.

25 "[No interpretation]"

Page 36548

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: We didn't get any --

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: We didn't have any translation.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm sorry if you didn't get the

5 translation. I thought it was under this tab. The written translation is

6 provided under this tab, and you heard that --

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have a translation into English of

8 what these doctors were saying.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Let us not waste time. I want to ask the witness for a comment.

11 We saw in the beginning the patients running towards their beds.

12 What was that all about?

13 A. It speaks of the gravity of poisoning. Those were young people

14 who were completely healthy, who were brought to hospital to be portrayed

15 as sick, and then they would walk along the corridors of the hospital, and

16 then when a TV crew or somebody would arrive, they would run to their beds

17 and make believe that they were poisoned.

18 Q. We saw them being urgently transported to the hospital en masse.

19 Where were they allegedly poisoned? What were the allegations?

20 A. The allegation was that they were poisoned throughout schools in

21 Kosovo and Metohija.

22 Q. Kosovo schools where there were only Serbs -- where there were

23 Serbs and Albanians or only Albanians?

24 A. There were both Albanian and Serb children there.

25 Q. How come, then, that only Albanians were poisoned in the same

Page 36549

1 building?

2 A. Of course it was not possible, but it was necessary to demonise

3 Serbia.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: May I ask, when they were brought to the

5 hospital, all these thespians, these actors, were they examined by the

6 doctors to determine whether they were in fact poisoned?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honour,

8 Mr. Robinson. We examined them, we did laboratory and toxicological

9 tests, we examined seriously every young man and woman until we had

10 definitively proven that they were not ill. Even if they were not

11 medically ill, we treated them as ill because they had agreed to be

12 manipulated in that way.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. And what did the tests show? Did you do the urine and blood

15 tests?

16 A. Yes, we did everything to establish if there was any poisoning or

17 not.

18 Q. In any of these hundreds of cases, was there any real poisoning

19 established?

20 A. The numbers were not in the hundreds but in the thousands. Not in

21 a single case was it proven that there was any poisoning.

22 Q. And in that entire scandal, did anybody die?

23 A. No. No one was even poisoned.

24 Q. Did anybody develop a disorder or disease that could later be

25 treated?

Page 36550

1 A. No.

2 Q. So how did the medical staff in Kosovo and Metohija treat this

3 monoethnic poisoning?

4 A. I will have to speak about the Serb and Albanian medical staff

5 separately. Serb --

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Does it matter for this case how they were treated?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it is important, Your

8 Honour, Judge Bonomy. At least, you will see if you hear my answer.

9 Serbs did their job professionally. As for the Albanian medical

10 staff, I could divide them into three groups. The first group were

11 organisers. There were few of them. The second, largest group were all

12 of those who had agreed consciously to participate in this whole farce,

13 trampling on their Hippocratic Oath and their professional duty, and the

14 third group were those who offered passive or active resistance, but there

15 were few of them.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Although there were few of them, as you say, do you know of any

18 Albanian doctors or medical staff who resisted this farce, who tried to do

19 something? Can you give us their names?

20 A. I know two Albanian professors. I don't know if it's a good idea

21 to mention them here.

22 Q. We can go into private session for just two minutes, if you wanted

23 to give us their names.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Why do you need their names?

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So that their names can be heard

Page 36551












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13 English transcripts.













Page 36552

1 here and entered into the record to show that there were Albanian

2 professors who condemned this whole scandal about the alleged poisoning in

3 which no one died, no one fell ill, and all the laboratory tests failed to

4 confirm a single claim of poisoning.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... allegation.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The relevance is that there was

7 constant talk of some sort of maltreatment of Albanians, about evil done

8 by Serbs to Albanians, about the demonisation of Serbs in this manner,

9 which was simply pure theatre and nothing else.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll have the names, then, in private session.

11 [Private session]

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 [Open session]

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Dr. Andric, as this was a major scandal and was widely reported,

23 both abroad and in our country, let me ask you specifically, did the

24 federal institutions and the institutions of the Republic of Serbia take

25 any action in connection with this scandal?

Page 36553

1 A. Yes. Very soon after the first cases of alleged poisoning were

2 reported, a helicopter arrived from Belgrade, bringing a delegation

3 including the director of the federal institution of health protection,

4 Dr. Branko Dragas, and on behalf of the Ministry of Health of the Republic

5 of Serbia, Professor Bozo Antonijevic, an expert on toxicology. They

6 examined the case, saw what this was about, went back to Belgrade. They,

7 of course, established that there was no poisoning, but in order to lend

8 credence to all this, the Federal Secretariat for Health established an

9 11-member commission, including experts from clinical hospital centres in

10 Ljubljana, Zagreb and Belgrade, and this commission submitted its report

11 in early June to the health committee of the Federal Assembly. This

12 report said that there was no poisoning and that not a single case of

13 poisoning had been established.

14 Q. Very well. We have here in tab 6 a report, a newspaper report

15 about the discussion conducted by the Executive Council Committee for

16 Labour, Health, and Welfare. The title is "There was no poisoning." The

17 Committee of the Executive Council --

18 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ... to intervene,

19 loath though I am to do it. This whole issue was originally raised by the

20 accused in cross-examination of a witness, and I think I asked one

21 question of a later witness about the same topic and I can't remember how

22 it arose. It seems to me that it is inconceivable that this Trial Chamber

23 will be able to make a final decision about whether thousands and

24 thousands of people were masquerading as ill, and pretty unlikely if not

25 inconceivable that the Trial Chamber will regard it as sufficiently

Page 36554

1 relevant to form an important part of its judgement, or any part of its

2 judgement. Now, this report - I don't mind the Chamber reading it - but I

3 wonder really how this report is really going to add to the material that

4 the Chamber has to deal with.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: First of all, if I might speak on this, it would be

6 helpful to have the official report, but I think more directly, Mr. Nice,

7 if you make the allegations or the averments you make in paragraphs 87 and

8 88 of the Kosovo indictment, is it not inevitable that we will end up

9 examining issues such as this? Which you may be right but if you are

10 right it begs the question why they're in the indictment.

11 MR. NICE: They were in the indictment as background matters and

12 it's a matter for the Chamber the degree to which it's proper to go into

13 them in detail. They're there. I haven't objected. I don't necessarily

14 object now, but I do raise as an issue, given the Chamber's earlier

15 observations about the best use of time, whether this report, which is

16 obviously being adduced in whatever format for the truth of its content,

17 is going to be a material bit of evidence in this case.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic evidently attaches great forensic

19 value to background matters.

20 But, Mr. Milosevic, this is a background matter, and you may not

21 want to spend so much time on it. You have been dealing with this now for

22 about half an hour, this single issue of the poisoning. I think you

23 should move on to another -- move on to another matter. It has been

24 sufficiently ventilated.

25 MR. KAY: Can tab 5.1 be an exhibit?

Page 36555


2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would have completed this topic in

3 a shorter time than it took to make this objection, because from this

4 large article talking about the work of the federal, not the republican

5 but the federal, institutions I just wanted to quote what Dr. Branko Pocek

6 said. You can tell by his name that he's evidently not a Serb. And on

7 the occasions of the findings of the commission, he said that "Ethical

8 norms of the Hippocratic Oath have been trampled on in Kosovo because

9 health workers have put themselves in the service of certain political

10 goals."

11 It was clear, therefore, that this was a scam, that this was put

12 up and the fact that several thousand people took part in it, in this

13 stage-managed farce --

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm stopping you and I'm requiring you to move on

15 to another topic. The indictment will not stand or fall on the basis of

16 this single allegation. Next topic.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Robinson. Mr. Nice

18 speaks of the general context, and it is only based on the background.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Just tell me this, please: Do you remember from this period of

21 time that these official findings of experts - federal, republican and

22 other experts on Kosovo and Metohija - were publicised in the foreign

23 media in any way or were given nearly as much publicity as the story on

24 the alleged poisonings? Do you remember that time?

25 A. Yes. Unfortunately, the official findings were never given any

Page 36556

1 significance in the media. This was never refuted in the media.

2 Unfortunately, it was the first story about the poisoning that was left to

3 stand and it was not correct.

4 Q. Do you recall any other examples of this kind of mass abuse for

5 propaganda purposes from, for example, 1998, 1999?

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's -- I'm not allowing that. I'm not

7 allowing that question. It has a leading element in it.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Without any leading elements in my question, do you remember an

11 event, let's just mention it very briefly and please make your answer

12 brief, from 1989 concerning the so-called miner's strike in Stari Trg?

13 A. Yes. This was in February 1989, from the 28th of February. 1.300

14 Albanian miners went on strike. They remained in the pit and their

15 demands were purely political. They wanted the replacement of three

16 Albanian leaders, the federal, provincial, and city leaders who were

17 pro-Yugoslav.

18 Q. I assume that in October 1998 you were the secretary for health?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you recall -- I'm referring to October, 1998 -- do you recall

21 an event in the village of Resnik near Vucitrn where the population was

22 exclusively Albanian? What happened there on the 29th of October, 1998?

23 A. The village of Resnik near Vucitrn is a village populated

24 exclusively by Albanians, and in October on a field near the mosque,

25 suddenly about 25.000 people gathered, mostly women, children, and elderly

Page 36557

1 men. They had been brought in for days from neighbouring areas, mostly

2 from the areas of Vucitrn, Mitrovica, Srbica and Glogova. They were --

3 Srbica and Glogova. They were brought in by trucks and other vehicles and

4 they asked that the High Commissioner for Refugees, Madam Sadako Ogata,

5 address them personally. They said that the Serbian army and police were

6 expelling them from their homes, persecuting them, and that they were

7 living out in the open. Mrs. Ogata arrived. She addressed them briefly,

8 and this was recorded by all the leading world media, by their cameras,

9 and several minutes after Mrs. Sadako Ogata left the area, they peacefully

10 went back to their homes, leaving behind only plastic bags and other

11 litter.

12 Q. Therefore, 25.000 Albanian refugees were shown on the media, and

13 after Mrs. Ogata left, they returned home and weren't there any more, only

14 the following days. Is this what you're saying?

15 A. Yes. And there are many such examples.

16 Q. Dr. Andric, in what period were you regional secretary for health?

17 A. I was provincial secretary for health of Kosovo and Metohija from

18 early October 1998 until March 2002 when the temporary provincial council

19 stopped its work. It was disbanded.

20 Q. While performing this duty, did you meet people from the

21 Verification Mission? From October 1998 throughout this time, the

22 Verification Mission was present. Did you meet members and leaders of the

23 Verification Mission of the OSCE?

24 A. Yes. During that period, late 1998, 1999, until the 29th of

25 March, 1999, when the Verification Mission left Kosovo and Metohija, I met

Page 36558

1 many members of this OSCE mission.

2 Q. Yes. And did you have contacts with anyone from the medical

3 sector of that mission, those dealing with health issues?

4 A. Yes. After the end of the Rambouillet negotiations and just

5 before the Paris negotiations, I personally received the head of this

6 section. It was the Finnish -- it was a Finnish doctor, I don't recall

7 his name, and we spoke in my office in the provincial council.

8 Q. And what did he want to learn from you? What did he draw your

9 attention to?

10 A. For the most part he wanted me to tell him about the way the

11 health service in Kosovo and Metohija was organised and structured.

12 Q. Did you explain this to him?

13 A. Yes, briefly, to the extent he was interested in it.

14 Q. I assume that he then, as could be expected, made some comments or

15 objections or gave you some suggestions. Do you recall that?

16 A. Yes. I remember well that his main objection was that it's too

17 centralised and too connected to Belgrade, that it should be less

18 centralised and less linked to Belgrade. He asked whether we needed any

19 aid from the international community as regards health services.

20 Q. Did he in any way draw attention to any violations of human rights

21 or improper behaviour by the authorities or the health institutions,

22 health organs?

23 A. No. This was a very pleasant spontaneous conversation in which we

24 discussed organisation. There were no objections apart from the one I

25 mentioned.

Page 36559












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13 English transcripts.













Page 36560

1 Q. Were you aware of the number of humanitarian organisations from

2 abroad on the territory of Kosovo and Metohija in late 1998 and early

3 1999?

4 A. Yes. I was the provincial secretary for health and this was part

5 of my job. On the territory of Kosovo and Metohija, just before the NATO

6 aggression, there were 29 foreign humanitarian organisations.

7 Q. And what happened? Do you have anything to say about what they

8 were doing, these humanitarian organisations, to what extent they

9 cooperated with the health organs in Kosovo and Metohija of which you were

10 at the head as the provincial secretary for health?

11 A. Yes. They had free access to the entire territory of Kosovo and

12 Metohija. They were able to reach every part of the territory of Kosovo

13 and Metohija. They gave quite a lot of assistance to the health

14 institutions on the territory of Kosovo and Metohija in terms of medicines

15 and medical material and equipment, supplies, and they were carrying out

16 their humanitarian mission.

17 Q. Very well. And what happened to these organisations on the eve of

18 the NATO aggression?

19 A. When Walker's Kosovo Verification Mission left a week before the

20 beginning of the NATO aggression, all these humanitarian organisations

21 left the territory of Kosovo and Metohija; all of them.

22 Q. Did they take with them all their property when they were leaving?

23 Did they take all their belongings?

24 A. No. They took some movable belongings but they left warehouses

25 throughout the territory of Kosovo and Metohija.

Page 36561

1 Q. And what happened to their warehouses? What did you find there?

2 A. Well, when the NATO aggression started, unknown perpetrators

3 looted many of these and raided many of these warehouses. However, some

4 of them were left, and we looked at what was inside. There was a

5 warehouse belonging to an organisation called Handicap where, apart from

6 medical supplies and medicines, I found many crutches, wheelchairs and

7 such equipment. This would not have been surprising had these things not

8 been present in impossibly large quantities. This was quite scary. This

9 heralded war, actually.

10 Q. Did you have any contacts with the NGO Medecins sans Frontieres?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And what was your experience with this organisation?

13 A. Yes. They arrived on the territory of Kosovo and Metohija in

14 1993. They worked without any hindrance or obstruction on the territory

15 of Kosovo and Metohija, and they helped quite a lot. I remember, for

16 example, the waterworks in Vucitrn and they brought medicines and other

17 equipment, but I learned from the field at one point that part of this

18 humanitarian organisation, its individual members, were engaging in

19 impermissible actions and that some of them had become the medical corps

20 of the KLA, the so-called KLA.

21 In early 1999, they asked -- they applied to me to extend their

22 permit because they had to extend their permit every three months.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: We are at the time for the break. We will

24 adjourn for 20 minutes.

25 --- Recess taken at 12.16 p.m.

Page 36562

1 --- On resuming at 12.40 p.m.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic, please continue.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Dr. Andric, we discussed your contacts with the organisation

5 Medecins sans Frontieres. Please take a look at tab 7. This is dated 4th

6 of January, 1999. This is a statement for the public given by the

7 provincial secretary of health, Dr. Vukasin Andric. In order not to waste

8 time, let us cover this briefly.

9 You gave a statement for the public and it is stated here that the

10 Doctors Without Borders abused their white coats when they accepted to

11 smuggle and hide weapons for Albanian terrorists. This is at the end of

12 the first paragraph of your statement. Not only that, our public and the

13 entire world was informed that one of their teams was uncovered using a

14 frequency solely reserved for communication by members of the Ministry of

15 the Interior.

16 And then it says that the monitors are using a humane and noble

17 idea in order to directly or indirectly assist terrorists and terrorism.

18 And then in the last paragraph, that such a conduct contributes to

19 the deterioration of the humanitarian situation in Kosovo and Metohija.

20 Therefore, you as the health secretary stated this with respect to

21 the conduct of the Doctors Without Borders, and you had information when

22 you made this statement. Is that right or not?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. The cooperation with Doctors Without Borders, did you discuss it

25 with the chief of their office, Mr. Boucher?

Page 36563

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Tab 8, does it contain a record from the meeting with Boucher?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. It is quite long. The Serbian version is. It has three pages.

5 The English translation has two pages but that is irrelevant. I will

6 stick to the Serbian text. You say here that Vukasin Andric explained

7 that he received information about the Doctors Without Borders from

8 several sources, from several people that he contacted in the field. This

9 is in the third paragraph. And they included people from all ethnic

10 groups, mostly from Albanians, or the majority were Albanians. Some

11 sources included journalists and representatives of official organs. And

12 then in the next paragraph it says it doesn't matter how and when somebody

13 was caught with weapons but that the assistance is not provided to both

14 sides, and then you explain that the idea of humanitarian organisation is

15 not to distinguish among the people of different religions or ethnic

16 backgrounds. So you emphasised this.

17 Did you have any reason to believe that they were insisting on

18 assisting only Albanians and not the other side, the non-Albanian

19 population?

20 A. Yes, partially. What I said was that they were helping the health

21 institutions in the area of Kosovo and Metohija. We had no complaints

22 there. However, what was impossible to understand was that a humanitarian

23 organisation which comes to a situation -- to a territory which is

24 multi-ethnic, which contains several ethnic communities, employs, in the

25 course of six years, only members of one ethnic community. This means

Page 36564

1 that Doctors Without Borders, in the territory of Kosovo and Metohija,

2 employed solely Albanians regardless of whether they were doctors, nurses,

3 staff, general staff or not. All of them were Albanians, exclusively

4 Albanians. The staff of Doctors Without Borders lived in houses and

5 apartments owned exclusively by Albanians, which you will agree with me

6 caused suspicion among Serbs.

7 Q. On page 2 in paragraph two from the bottom you say that Dr. Andric

8 explained that this did not have to be a political discussion, only

9 agreements on specific activities, and then Boucher, in the following

10 passage, says that they wanted to cooperate with both sides, they wanted

11 to go to Serbian villages too but encountered animosity. So what was this

12 all about? With did they encounter animosity in Serbian villages?

13 A. I don't think that they encountered animosity in Serbian villages

14 at all. It's simply that the Serbs knew -- you know how it was. When the

15 situation is tense and a doctor comes from Doctors Without Borders and

16 brings with him an Albanian driver, an Albanian nurse, and so on, this

17 automatically creates mistrust. And knowing what was done until then,

18 people simply did not trust that organisation.

19 Q. At the end of this record of yours, you say that one Albanian

20 doctor was killed in Pec in the most awful way because he did not want to

21 accept the invitation extended to him by the terrorists to go and work for

22 Doctors Without Borders. So you claim that he was killed because of that.

23 And then Boucher replies to you, in the penultimate paragraph, that he

24 heard about the case but had no contacts with that person. He said that

25 he had no influence over the media or politics and that's why he wanted to

Page 36565

1 explain what they were really doing and what they should cooperate more

2 closely.

3 A. This involved Dr. Dzevad Gashi, who remained working in the

4 Serbian health care system. That night when he was killed, and he was

5 killed several days before my meeting with Mr. Boucher, which took place

6 on the 22nd of January, 1999 - I remember this well - this doctor went to

7 his work and was killed by the terrorists of the so-called KLA. His

8 parents stated to the television that several days before he was killed,

9 members of the so-called KLA had come and tried to pressure him into

10 leaving his job with the Serb republic institutions and go to work for the

11 Doctors Without Borders.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. I ask that this exhibit

13 be tendered into evidence, this record reflecting the conversation he held

14 -- he had with Mr. Boucher. This is tab 8.


16 MR. KAY: Tab 7 was referred to as well as part of it.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: 7 and 8, yes.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Thank you. Dr. Andric, where were you at the time when the NATO

20 aggression against Yugoslavia started; and did you hold any other

21 positions or offices during the NATO aggression?

22 A. When the NATO aggression against Yugoslavia started, I was in

23 Pristina preparing, together with my team, the work of health services

24 which were supposed to adapt to the -- to the war conditions, and in

25 addition to being the provincial health secretary, I was also president of

Page 36566

1 the staff of humanitarian issues and also member of the civilian

2 protection staff and member of the staff for coordinating between civilian

3 authorities, army, and the MUP.

4 Q. Very well. Thank you. You mentioned several organs just now.

5 Please tell us something about the composition of these organs. When I

6 say "the composition," what I have in mind is both professional background

7 of its members and ethnic background.

8 A. The composition was quite diverse. People from various

9 professional backgrounds were involved and also people from various ethnic

10 communities.

11 Q. Very well. Now, let us please look at tab 9, which is a decision

12 appointing you. This is a form. The decision appointing you president of

13 the staff on humanitarian issues and assistance to the displaced persons

14 returning to their homes.

15 And then in the statement of reasons, it is stated that the staff

16 has to coordinate the activities pursuant to the plan and programme of

17 work and activities. There is a translation into English. And then it

18 says that they are duty-bound to pay special attention to ensuring that

19 there are favourable conditions for housing civilian population, assisting

20 economic organisations, especially health care organs, to ensure law and

21 order, protect property, prevent any action taken against the liberty of

22 citizens, and then this last bit is covered by the seal, to facilitate the

23 return of displaced persons to their homes.

24 Therefore, what can you tell us about the work of these organs,

25 the work in which you participated? Did your work involve all of these

Page 36567












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13 English transcripts.













Page 36568

1 activities described here as the activities undertaken by the staff?

2 A. Yes. Our duty was to help civilian population, especially those

3 who were at risk, but not only those who were in danger or at risk but

4 everybody who lived in that territory. All of them needed to receive

5 basic necessities.

6 Q. What were your specific tasks? Just give us the main ones. What

7 were your main duties?

8 A. For example, we dealt with ensuring that there was clean water,

9 also protection of environmental area, provision of medical assistance,

10 ensuring that there was food for people who lacked food. We were also

11 involved in removing the consequences of NATO bombing. Where there were

12 dead people or casualties, we ensured that action was taken and then we

13 also undertook sanitisation of the terrain.

14 Q. Mr. Andric, I made a mistake. I read out the document under tab

15 10 rather than the document under tab 9. So let us go back to tab 9,

16 which is the decision - please take a look at the document in tab 9 -

17 establishing the staff for humanitarian issues which is going to be

18 composed of the following persons, and then Vukasin Andric is the

19 chairman; Veljko Odalovic, member; Zejnelabidin Kurejs, member; Selim

20 Gudjufi, member; Faik Jashari, member; and then Mihajlo Nedic, member.

21 And then the document goes on to explain the duties of the staff.

22 So please tell us, the members of the staff, what was their

23 ethnicity? There was a total of six of them.

24 A. There were Serbs, Turks, Albanians, and a Montenegrin there.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. This is tab 9. I would

Page 36569

1 like this decision, which has a registration number and --


3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- is dated April 1999, as well as

4 tab 10, which I have already covered, be tendered into evidence. Tab 10

5 pertains --


7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- to the appointment of this

8 witness. Thank you.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Dr. Andric, before the bombing started, did the residents leave

11 Pristina and other cities as well as the territory of Kosovo and Metohija

12 in general?

13 A. No. Before the NATO aggression started, the movement of the

14 population was a regular one. Regular life was going on.

15 Q. What about after the bombing started?

16 A. After the bombing started, the very first day, and the bombing

17 started in the evening of the 24th of March, so already on the next day,

18 on the 25th of March, I noticed groups of people in Pristina leaving the

19 town.

20 Q. All right. Who was leaving town? When I say "who," I'm referring

21 to the ethnicity of the people leaving town.

22 A. Everybody was leaving town. That means Albanians, Serbs, Roma;

23 everybody living there. The -- the rule that applied was that everybody

24 was leaving town.

25 Q. So you were in Pristina then.

Page 36570

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And did the number of people leaving Pristina increase in time?

3 A. Yes. With the growing intensity of the NATO aggression, the

4 number of people leaving Pristina and Kosovo and Metohija in general

5 increased as well. The number was especially high between the 1st and the

6 15th of April, and especially high between the 6th and the 9th of April --

7 or the 1st and the 6th of April, 1999.

8 Q. So with the increase in intensity of the bombing, as far as I

9 understand, the number of the people leaving increased as well.

10 A. Yes. That area was subjected to especially intensive bombing. It

11 seemed to us sometimes that it went on without stopping for 24 hours;

12 incessantly.

13 Q. Do you know, where did the people leaving town generally go? And

14 I'm referring now to Albanians and Serbs and Montenegrins, because you

15 told us that everybody was leaving town.

16 A. Albanians mostly went towards Macedonia, Albania, and a smaller

17 number of them towards Montenegro. Serbs mostly went towards central

18 Serbia, and other non-Albanians either towards central Serbia or

19 Montenegro. I remember that the Turks went to Turkey en masse.

20 Q. During NATO bombing, during NATO aggression, the health

21 professionals working in health institutions, in view of what you did and

22 what other state organs did, can you tell us whether you were able to

23 work? Were the health professionals able to work?

24 A. Yes. On the 25th of March, in the morning, I as provisional

25 secretary of health issued an order addressed to the heads of all health

Page 36571

1 institutions in Kosovo and Metohija to ensure that all health

2 professionals and workers continued their work and to ensure safety to

3 those people who believed that they were endangered or that their families

4 were endangered and to provide housing to them within the facilities of

5 health institutions.

6 Q. Was that order complied with?

7 A. This order pertaining to the management of health institution was

8 complied with fully.

9 Q. Under tab 11 we have some information regarding health care staff

10 and professionals of Albanian ethnicity who remained, continued in their

11 jobs in the hospital in Djakovica even after the beginning of the NATO

12 aggression. Please look at tab 11. Those are Albanians, doctors who

13 continued in their jobs in Djakovica city hospital after the beginning of

14 the NATO aggression. Did you provide this list?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you make note of any incident that would indicate that these

17 doctors suffered from any discrimination or any risk in their jobs?

18 A. From what I know, they didn't. There were no such cases. There

19 were cases, for instance, in the health care centres of Prizren and

20 Djakovica. After the order that I issued, Albanian doctors left these

21 health centres. Something similar happened in Gnjilane as well. In

22 Djakovica, 95 per cent of the health care staff was Albanian, and almost

23 all of them continued in their jobs until the end of the war.

24 Q. Dr. Andric, during the NATO aggression, did you move around the

25 territory of Kosovo and Metohija?

Page 36572

1 A. Yes, every day. It was my job.

2 Q. Did you come in contact with Albanians who were leaving? Let us

3 leave aside the Serbs for the moment. Did you come in contact with the

4 Albanians who were leaving, and was your service active on the ground?

5 A. Every day I would come in contact with hundreds of Albanians, and

6 our services were on the ground on a daily basis, extending assistance.

7 Q. Was the work of medical teams especially intensive in some

8 particularly vulnerable areas?

9 A. Yes. We had mobile medical teams, sometimes more, sometimes less,

10 between five and ten, who worked on the border with Macedonia and near the

11 border in the vicinity of Prizren.

12 Q. Since you were on the ground and organising these medical teams

13 that were extending assistance, can you tell me about the movement of the

14 columns of Albanians leaving from -- leaving Kosovo and Metohija? Did any

15 authorities in Serbia or in Kosovo force them to leave?

16 A. No. They were leaving of their own accord, using their own

17 vehicles. They travelled even in horse-drawn carts.

18 Q. Did you personally talk to these Albanians who were leaving the

19 country?

20 A. I did talk to them, dozens of them, every day.

21 Q. When you say that you spoke to a lot of them, did you perhaps know

22 personally some of them? What was the gist of your exchange?

23 A. I remember, for instance, a butcher from Pristina who asked me to

24 bring diapers for his baby.

25 Q. So what did you tell them when you spoke to them? You talked to a

Page 36573

1 large number of people leaving.

2 A. I was trying to convince them not to leave, to return to their

3 homes. I was telling them that our army and our police would guarantee

4 their safety and security.

5 Q. And what did they say in reply? Did they do as you said or not?

6 A. Most of them did not listen to me. Some of them said they were

7 going to take their families away from danger and then return, but most of

8 them didn't return.

9 Q. Did some of them take your advice?

10 A. Very few, but some of them did. But some of those who returned I

11 met later, after the international forces came in, and they thanked me for

12 my advice. They told me that everyone should have stayed.

13 Q. In your opinion, why were they leaving, the Albanians?

14 A. In my opinion, the main reason was the beginning of the NATO

15 aggression and the fear of NATO bombs. Another thing is that the Albanian

16 population was under humungous pressure from the separatist movement, or

17 the terrorist movement of the KLA to leave Kosovo. The KLA gave them

18 guarantees, it seems, that they would return soon.

19 Q. Were you extending any humanitarian assistance to those Albanians

20 in addition to the medical assistance that you mentioned already? Did you

21 give them any humanitarian aid?

22 A. Certainly. Every day we would visit those columns of fleeing

23 people to bring them food, diapers, milk for children. We would even

24 provide transportation for the infirm. We would take them to the clinical

25 centre.

Page 36574

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Professor, are you aware of the reason for the

2 KLA, as you say, pressuring the Albanians to leave Kosovo?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can only assume what the reason

4 was. Their aim was to empty the territory of Kosovo from Albanians and

5 portray that as ethnic cleansing. What I mean is that was the objective

6 of those who were trying to persuade the population to leave. But in

7 addition to that, there were people simply fleeing the bombing.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. You told us of your experience with people you met at the border.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like some footage shown from

11 tab 5. 5.2 more precisely.

12 MR. KAY: Tab 11 to be an exhibit.


14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note that if the sound is going to

15 be in Albanian, we do not have an Albanian interpreter in the English

16 booth, so it's probably the Albanian booth who is going to read the

17 English translation provided.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I note that. Let us see what happens.

19 You saw that, Mr. Milosevic?

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm going to see it now.

21 [Videotape played]

22 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "In Kosovo and Metohija, at the

23 moment when some Albanians, hundred of thousands of Albanians are leaving

24 Kosovo and Metohija, mainly Pristina, they want to pass over to the

25 neighbouring Macedonia. Among them there are women, children, and elderly

Page 36575












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 36576

1 people who seem tired and worn out. So only some tens of cars and

2 hundreds of people waiting to pass over to Macedonia. As can be seen,

3 there is no mention of tens of thousands of Albanians who wish to cross --

4 to leave Metohija and Kosovo, as some Western media are claiming. Among

5 the people who, as they say, are afraid of the NATO aggression and the

6 situation created after the attack have abandoned their homes.

7 "Mobile ambulances were there to help them, led by Dr. Andric.

8 These people are here to help them medical assistance to all those who

9 need it. Among them there are representatives of the Ministry of Interior

10 of Serbia who asked them to return to their homes because they can

11 guarantee them full security.

12 "Our camera shot the return of some 50 cars who, from the border

13 checkpoint to Macedonia, pass on to Kacanik and Pristina. Our team

14 visited the cross-border point of Macedonia -- of Yugoslavia with Albania.

15 The situation is the same. The only difference is that the transportation

16 of refugees is mainly through tractors. Our medical team of Red Cross of

17 Kosovo and Metohija was there. The representatives of the Serbian

18 Ministry of Interior are trying hard to persuade people to return back to

19 their homes.

20 "On the way to Pristina, we filmed that some of these people

21 returned home. Otherwise, last night we saw about 500 cars, tractors,

22 which were going in the direction of Pristina at the central part of

23 Kosovo and Metohija."

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. That's it.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Do we have a date for that broadcast?

Page 36577

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This happened on the 4th, 5th, and

2 6th April, 1999. This particular footage is from the 4th of April from

3 the border crossing at Djeneral Jankovic.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. At the beginning of this footage we were able to see you,

6 Dr. Andric.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You were talking to the refugees on the spot. One can see that

9 the broadcast is in the Albanian language.

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. Was this a television programme intended for Albanians because it

12 was broadcast in Albanian?

13 A. Yes. There is a daily programme -- there was a daily programme in

14 Albanian, and this was part of it.

15 Q. Was this broadcast on the Albanian TV programme in order to

16 encourage people, Albanians, to stay and not leave their homes?

17 A. The aim was to inform the entire population, including Albanians,

18 as to what exactly was happening on the ground.

19 Q. Nevertheless, as you said, a large number chose to leave Kosovo,

20 whereas a smaller part took your advice and returned home. As I see in

21 this footage, the emphasis is placed on the people who took your advice

22 and were persuaded also by representatives of the MUP and chose to return

23 to their homes.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like this contribution to be

25 tendered into evidence as well.

Page 36578


2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Dr. Andric, from your experience, from what you were able to see

4 with your own eyes, and from what you were able to learn, were civilian

5 facilities targeted during the bombing?

6 A. Yes. Most cities and towns were bombed daily, and many civilian

7 targets were damaged and destroyed.

8 Q. When you say "many civilian targets," what exactly do you mean?

9 Let us take Pristina or Djakovica, for example, or any other town in

10 Kosovo. Is there anything in particular you remember?

11 A. I can enumerate the targets that were hit in individual towns. In

12 Pristina, for example, the centre of the town and the main post office,

13 the main bus terminal, the Serbian Orthodox cemetery, the administrative

14 building of the Jugopetrol company and their warehouse, the warehouse of

15 the oil company Jugopetrol where a huge environmental catastrophe was

16 caused. Then a large warehouse of commodities that spread over five

17 hectares was hit, destroying a huge amount of goods. The deputies club

18 in --

19 Q. Was the centre of Pristina bombed?

20 A. Yes. I said that at the beginning. The old town, the centre of

21 Pristina, including the main post office.

22 Q. That will be enough.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like the next video clip

24 shown. It will illustrate our latest point.

25 [Videotape played]

Page 36579

1 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "It coincides with --" the Albanian

2 interpreter notes that he can't hear the video when he is speaking on the

3 mike.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: We're not getting any translation.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Again the Albanian interpreters note that the

6 moment we open the mike, we cannot hear the video feed.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, this is the tail end

8 of the previous video clip that hadn't ended. There were video clips 2

9 and 3 depicting departures from Kosovo, the presence of Mr. Andric there

10 and his activity and the activities of other representatives of the

11 authorities, and that was broadcast in the Albanian language in order to

12 encourage civilians to not leave their homes, or return to their homes.

13 And the next clip which I wanted to show is number 4, relates to

14 the destruction that we have just heard described from Mr. Andric. That

15 was just the tail end of the previous clip we saw.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, yes. So we are now moving to 5.4.

17 [Videotape played]

18 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "We returned about 500 automobiles

19 and lorries who returned towards Pristina and the central part

20 of Pristina and Metohija."

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We have seen this. That's not what

22 I meant.

23 [Videotape played]

24 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "The -- no, we have seen nothing.

25 No, we didn't see.

Page 36580

1 "We came from Mitrovica. The -- we came -- we came from -- all

2 the way from Mitrovica. Nobody ever touched us. No one said a word.

3 "I am from Gjakove. I came from Gjakove. The parties are not in

4 conflict with each other. That's all I wanted to say.

5 "Have you seen anything?

6 "No, nothing of the sort. No, nothing.

7 "Who do you fear?

8 "We fear the bombardment and the conflict. It's the conflict of

9 the two parties --"

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This was in tab 5.3, and the

11 translation of what the people at the border are saying is in 5.3.

12 Now I ask that tab 5.4 be played.

13 MR. NICE: Before we move on from tab 5.3, one is bound to observe

14 that, apart from general problems with the translation, no doubt

15 reflecting the quality of the audio, at 6/10 was an interpretation or

16 something said that was totally reversed from what's here in the

17 transcript. Favourable to the accused, I would have thought, because it

18 seems to say "I come from Djakovica" - I think this is what I heard - and

19 it seems to say the sides are fighting but the way I heard it was no one

20 was fighting.

21 Can I suggest that perhaps if these clips are going to be admitted

22 some steps be taken to tidy up the transcripts because we don't want to

23 proceed on a false understanding.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, we are just going to ask the

Page 36581

1 interpreter to listen to this particular part again, because you are

2 right. I did hear what you said. So let us have it clarified.

3 Have that tape replayed.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson. Mr. Robinson. My

5 transcript, which I have before me now in the Serbian language, I don't

6 speak Albanian, but the way it's been translated, this woman says, "I have

7 arrived from Djakovica. The sides are fighting. I am not involved with

8 them in any way. I just want to get away until the situation calms down.

9 When things calm down, we will live together again." And then the

10 reporter says, "Did you face any obstacles, hindrances, problems during

11 your journey?" And she says, "No, none at all."

12 This is what it says here. It doesn't say what Mr. Nice said,

13 "The sides are fighting."

14 JUDGE KWON: But the Albanian interpreter in the booth translated

15 it a bit differently. That is why we are asking some clarification.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: We heard the same thing as Mr. Nice. But there

17 is another way that we could deal with it. We could have a translation

18 done.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge Robinson, sir, I heard the

20 sound. I speak Albanian quite well. When this woman is speaking of the

21 NATO bombing, the interpreter said "the sides in the conflict." He's not

22 saying NATO. The woman is being asked about NATO and the interpreter is

23 again saying "the sides in the conflict."

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Andric speaks Albanian, so it

25 isn't hard for him to check that.

Page 36582

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us proceed. Let us proceed.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will have the tape played again and have it

4 interpreted.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is tab 5.3.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: 5.3. Let's play it again. I don't know whether

7 that part alone can be played. It's 6/10, 6/10, the Albanian woman

8 speaking.

9 [Videotape played]

10 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Everybody is afraid of the NATO

11 bombing, all the world. I have come from Mitrovica. Nobody said anything

12 to us. I have seen some 20 buses with people.

13 "I come from Gjakove, because the sides are -- are in a conflict

14 between them. I have no business with them, that's why I had to leave.

15 No, nobody said anything to us. Nobody prevented us."

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Stop the tape. That clarifies it.

17 Continue, Mr. Milosevic.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Dr. Andric, at the beginning of this clip, the first man says, as

20 far as I can see from the transcript, "We are going to Albania. We are

21 afraid." The journalists ask, "Who are you afraid of?" And he says, "Of

22 the shelling, because of the NATO shelling." The second Albanian man

23 intervenes, he says, "We're afraid of the bombing, of the shelling. We're

24 very afraid. Because of the situation, we're going to Albania." The

25 reporter says, "Have you come across any obstacles in your journey here?"

Page 36583












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 36584

1 And the second Albanian man says, "No, a little here and there, generally

2 speaking no," and so on.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ...

4 Mr. Milosevic.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. What is shown here, does this accord with your knowledge,

7 Mr. Andric, as to the reasons for people fleeing Kosovo, and what was the

8 attitude of the authorities toward them?

9 A. Precisely so. This is what I said before. Most of them said they

10 were fleeing because they were afraid of the NATO bombing, and also they

11 said they had had no problems with the authorities along the way or even

12 before they set out.

13 Q. Before that, I asked you about the bombing of towns in Kosovo and

14 Metohija. Now I ask that tab 5.4 be played, and I will ask you to

15 explain.

16 [Videotape played]

17 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "I was asleep. I was asleep, and I

18 heard a sound and then a shell fell. Then a burst of gunfire and I tried

19 to get out. A board fell on me. When I moved it, my wife asked me if I

20 was alive. I said I was, but I couldn't move. There was mortar all over

21 the children, there were bricks everywhere, and it was very difficult to

22 remove all this. And then I went to save the geese, Bosko and Jela.

23 "It's just refugees who live in this village?

24 "Yes, just refugees from Krajina.

25 "How many people, approximately?

Page 36585

1 "About 100 or 120, two or three more or less.

2 "Did you hear several explosions or just one?

3 "I heard a round. There were maybe ten bursts. Suddenly there

4 was an explosion and everything fell on top of me. There was terrible

5 noise everywhere. It was all over in a couple of seconds. I could hear

6 it falling on us. And then we started moaning.

7 "Were there many wounded or killed?

8 "Yes, there are two or three bodies, two of women and two men. I

9 don't know of anything else.

10 "There were people who are wounded. My husband was wounded. My

11 son was wounded."

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Dr. Andric, this is a clip of the refugee centre that was bombed.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What did you know about it?

16 A. This is a refugee centre called Meja. It had 26 houses that had

17 been constructed for Serbs expelled from the Republic of Croatia. In

18 early May 1999 NATO shelled that settlement, that centre, and four persons

19 were killed, several dozen were wounded, the Volarevic brothers from

20 Benkovci and the Ilkic [phoen] mother and daughter from Knin were killed

21 as far as I can recall.

22 Q. Were there any military facilities nearby?

23 A. No. This was simply a refugee centre for refugees from Croatia.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tender this clip into evidence and

25 ask that tab 5.5 be played.

Page 36586


2 MR. KAY: Tab 5.3 as an exhibit.


4 JUDGE BONOMY: Is there a date for this incident? Professor, do

5 you have the date for this?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure whether it was the 3rd

7 of May or the 5th of May. I'm not absolutely sure, but it was in early

8 May 1999.

9 [Videotape played]

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is the centre of Pristina.

11 [Videotape played]

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is the next clip. Could you

13 stop it please? Wait a little.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. In tab 5.5, when I viewed it in prison with you, I had the

16 impression you could also see residential buildings that had been

17 destroyed. Was this in another tab or did this somehow go missing from

18 this tab?

19 A. Well, this is the shortest tab.

20 Q. Can you explain what this is about?

21 A. This is part of the very centre of Pristina, which was destroyed

22 by NATO bombing in the night between the 6th and 7th of April, 1999, or to

23 be more precise, on the 7th of April, early in the morning, at ten past

24 one a.m. The very centre of Pristina was bombed and two streets,

25 Njegoseva and Zanatska street were razed to the ground; all the

Page 36587

1 residential buildings there, the main post office was severely damaged,

2 and in this attack by the NATO Air Force, 16 citizens were killed and

3 dozens were wounded.

4 Q. Very well. You went to the spot at that time; is this correct?

5 A. Yes. As I live very close to that part of the town, I went with

6 my son and his friends to the scene of these events, hoping to help those

7 who had been injured.

8 Q. Did you know anyone who was killed at the time?

9 A. Yes. My mother-in-law was killed in her own house.

10 Q. Was her residential building destroyed?

11 A. Yes, completely, as were all the other residential buildings in

12 those two streets, Zanatska street and Njegoseva street.

13 Q. Yes. Your mother-in-law was killed. Her house was destroyed.

14 What was her name?

15 A. Zlatinka Rankovic.

16 Q. And the houses of some other people were also destroyed. Do you

17 know the names of other people whose houses were hit and who were killed?

18 You said that 16 people were killed?

19 A. Yes. I remember a Turkish family. Mesut Gashi was a neighbour of

20 my mother-in-law's, and he remained buried under the rubble of his house

21 with four children and his mother and his wife. That house caught fire,

22 and through superhuman efforts we managed to save his mother and the

23 youngest child. He, with his wife and three daughters, although he was

24 alive and helping, they burnt in that house. They were burnt to death.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please see the next video

Page 36588

1 clip. And I tender this one into evidence.


3 [Videotape played]

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Previously -- very well, let's see

5 this.

6 [Videotape played]

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is tab 5.7. Meja and Bistrazin

8 near Djakovica.

9 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "I came from Krushe. When we arrived

10 in Krushe a plane bombed us but didn't hit us. It hit the ground on the

11 other side. When we reached this place, the bomb fell on the ground. We

12 reached this place, we were here with the tractor. My daughter died. She

13 was 22 years old. Was hit on the arm and in the ear. There were some

14 wounded children, wounded women, and four men who were killed. They were

15 hit in their legs. And then the truck came. I stayed with my

16 daughter-in-law and three small children here to wait for my neighbours.

17 They still haven't arrived from Djakovica in the tractor. We have no

18 transport, and we have small children. My head was injured, and it's hard

19 for me to walk.

20 "And how many people are dead?

21 "About ten, including children, men, my daughter and the women.

22 Two women from the village of Smonica were killed on a tractor and their

23 three sons, young quite also. And two men, Ferat Sejda from Kosara and

24 Imer Shabani from Batusa were also killed. I know that because I was

25 here, and there are many injured truckloads.

Page 36589

1 "How many shells were fired at you?

2 "Three from over there. See the asphalt road where it is damaged?

3 And then over on that side. I stayed here.

4 "Who was shooting at you?

5 "A plane.

6 "Do you know whose planes?

7 "NATO's. There were many planes in the air."

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Dr. Andric, this was the footage under tab 5.7.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Gentlemen, you have the transcript

11 of the words uttered by the Albanian man. You have it in English. This

12 is the place called Bistrazin.

13 Did they ever establish the total number of casualties? What

14 happened there?

15 A. NATO planes bombed a column of internally displaced Albanians who

16 were on their way home, starting at 2.00 p.m. on the 14th of April, 1999.

17 Throughout the following hour they bombed them on several occasions.

18 Q. Did you go to the site?

19 A. I was at the site 15 minutes before the bombing started.

20 Q. Where did you go from there?

21 A. I went to Prizren, because I had to get three buses in order to

22 transport the people with whom I had talked and had convinced them to go

23 back to their homes.

24 Q. And while you went to Prizren, the column was bombed?

25 A. Yes. When I arrived at Prizren, the column was bombed.

Page 36590

1 Q. What did you establish?

2 A. The health teams from Djakovica and Prizren went to the site

3 immediately. In that place called Meja and the place called Bistrazin, 87

4 civilians were killed on the spot, and 28 were killed either during the

5 transport or in the hospitals in Djakovica and Prizren. Over 100

6 civilians were injured.

7 Q. These were all Albanians in that column, the people returning or

8 were they leaving Kosovo?

9 A. Some of them were on their way to Albania, and some were on their

10 way back home, and these are precisely the people that I was supposed to

11 transport in the buses. Most of them did not have any transportation and

12 I was supposed to ensure bus transportation for them to their homes.

13 Some people were in their tractors on their way to Albania, and

14 when the first bomb fell, they returned to Djakovica.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I apologise, but

16 there's a problem with tab 5. I remember the houses that were destroyed.

17 There's also tab 5.6, which was provided in a CD format, but in addition

18 to that I have photographs of the houses that had been destroyed and that

19 Dr. Andric spoke about that, in the centre of Pristina. So I ask that

20 they be placed on the ELMO. These are the photographs under tab 5.6. As

21 far as I understood it, the technical booth has these photographs in a CD

22 format.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Let them be placed on the ELMO.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just briefly, please. I think that

25 Dr. Andric has these photographs, so he can place his photographs on the

Page 36591












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 36592

1 ELMO. His photographs are better than mine because they're in colour and

2 mine are black and white.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. These are the photographs of

4 the post office destroyed in Pristina. Behind that you can see the bank

5 building, and next to it is the building in which my mother-in-law was

6 killed.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Could you please show us the house of your mother-in-law.

9 A. Here it is.

10 Q. What can we see in the next photograph?

11 A. The next photograph is quite similar. It depicts the post office

12 and the area that was destroyed.

13 Q. Very well.

14 A. And now the third photograph, which also shows the destroyed

15 residential buildings.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I ask that tab 5.6 be

17 exhibited as well, including tab 5.7, which we just saw.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Tab 5.6, yes. And tab 5.7, yes. Yes.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. The footage that we saw under tab 5.7 showing how the column of

21 Albanian refugees was targeted, you told us that there were 105 dead

22 persons.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Very well. You mentioned Djakovica and the Djakovica hospital

25 where the Albanian doctors remained working until the end of the war. Was

Page 36593

1 the hospital damaged during the NATO aggression?

2 A. Yes. During the NATO aggression the hospital was damaged four

3 times.

4 Q. What was the extent of the damage? Was it possible to use the

5 building or was perhaps some part of the building uninhabitable?

6 A. Yes. A part of it was uninhabitable. The operation theatre, the

7 surgical theatre could not be used.

8 Q. As far as I understood it, it wasn't a direct hit. The area next

9 to the hospital was hit.

10 A. Yes. It wasn't hit directly, but it was damaged four times

11 because next to it was the barracks that had been deserted four years

12 before the war, and that was actually the target.

13 Q. All right. During the aggression, did you go to Djakovica; and if

14 so, what did you do there?

15 A. Yes. I went to Djakovica several times. I remember the 14th of

16 April, which is precisely the day when the column of refugees in Bistrazin

17 was hit. I went to Djakovica because I wanted to visit the hospital and

18 visit the patients.

19 Q. Do you remember any specifics about that visit?

20 A. Yes. I remember talking to Albanian doctors. There were mostly

21 Albanian doctors there. As I told you, 95 per cent of the employees there

22 were Albanians. I remember that out of 13 wards, only seven were in

23 operation. And on at that day, the 14th of April, 1999, the hospital had

24 157 patients.

25 Q. And then after that you went to Prizren?

Page 36594

1 A. Yes. I went to Prizren to get the buses.

2 Q. And then you told us what happened afterwards. And immediately

3 after that, this event took place, the bombing of the refugee column in

4 the course of which 105 civilians were killed.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Let us see the next clip

6 which deals with the Djakovica hospital, and it's under tab 5.8.

7 [Videotape played]

8 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Stay quiet. Stay quiet. Don't

9 move. It's okay. It's okay.

10 "Djakovica municipality.

11 "Nearly all of your children who came with you were injured.

12 "Yes, that's right. My relatives have been wounded or killed. My

13 wife's sister, who was 22, died now and she left behind a young son. My

14 five sons are here. All of them have been wounded. We noticed the round.

15 We were lucky. When we came to Pec, I don't know how many bombs fell. In

16 two tractors five people were killed. They're all here.

17 "All in one place.

18 "Yes, just in one place, in Pec, where the brick factory is or

19 whatever it's called.

20 "Are your children seriously injured?

21 "The youngest one was wounded in the chest and legs and also

22 there is a wound between his shoulders, a serious wound. And then two

23 sons, then there's a person there hit, injured in the head, and a woman

24 with an injury on her neck.

25 "What did the doctors say?

Page 36595

1 "The doctors helped a lot. They helped a lot certainly.

2 "They say that the United States wants to protect the Albanian

3 people. Is that how they're protecting the women and the children?

4 "Yes. You can see it for yourself.

5 "They shoot two or three times and then they hit me on the arm.

6 There was a neighbour next to me came and drove me here in his car. The

7 others stayed there, and the others, the police went and brought them

8 here."

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the next clip.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Very well. Now, let us stop the tape.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I ask that tab 5.8, depicting the

13 situation in the Djakovica hospital, also be exhibited.


15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Robinson. Under tab

16 5.9, you will see that the document there is translated into English.

17 These are two written statements given by Cuni Zoja, the first one, and

18 the second one was given by Sulja Ljabinot. Yes. I apologise, I misread

19 the last name.

20 MR. NICE: For good order and lest it be thought that I am

21 agreeing for all later witnesses to a course of action being taken with

22 respect of this witness, statements of this kind, witness statements,

23 would normally have to be either admitted under 92 bis or 89(F), otherwise

24 they would be inadmissible. Now, the accused might usefully remind

25 himself that there are provisions for making material like this available

Page 36596

1 through the Rules of the Court. I'm anxious to take no time with any

2 technical objection today -- not technical objection, with any objection

3 today, and would ask that for the time being these are marked for

4 identification only and their status reviewed at the end of all the

5 evidence. I don't -- I don't resist their being read since they've now

6 been made available to you.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: What you're saying is that the witness should be

8 called, or 92 bis or --

9 MR. NICE: At the moment I don't. I simply say let's at least

10 recognise that what's happening here is well outside our normal Rules of

11 Procedure. If the Chamber de bene esse wishes to read these statements,

12 I'm not going to stand in the way by any form of objection, but can we put

13 back to the end of the evidence of this witness the question whether they

14 stand marked for identification or whether they are produced. I have a

15 reason for doing that.

16 JUDGE KWON: So you're saying you will review the status at the

17 end of the day and consider whether you agree with it or not.

18 MR. NICE: Your Honour, yes.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We won't admit it now.

20 Mr. Milosevic --

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic --

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, before you rule on

24 Mr. Nice's objection, let me tell you that these statements, as you can

25 see from them, are dealing with precisely that day, the 14th of April,

Page 36597

1 1999. And the witness who is before us now was on site. We saw the

2 footage, we saw the hospital, and the witness obtained the statements

3 which describe the events of that date. So this is not something that is

4 not directly linked to the evidence of this witness. On the contrary, it

5 is directly linked because he was there on that day.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: We acknowledge the linkage. It's just the

7 question of admission. But what Mr. Nice was referring to were the

8 modalities open to you under the Rules of Evidence, and you might consider

9 utilising those modalities for statements of this kind.

10 We will come back to this later. It's now 2.00, when we said we

11 would break. We will now adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00 a.m.

12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.00 p.m.,

13 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 24th day of

14 February, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.