1 Thursday, 5 May 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, yesterday you had just about
7 concluded examining the witness on the allegations arising out of
8 paragraph 66 -- 63(e), and I was suggesting that you might conclude with
9 that, but you had other issues, you said, to raise. Can you tell me the
10 areas that are left to be covered by your examination-in-chief?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I'll tell you. Just a moment.
12 I want to complete this alleged point (e) or para (e), which allegedly
13 speaks of expulsions, or alleged expulsions, and then -- and deportation,
14 and just briefly the conduct of the police with respect to the attacks and
15 the subordination of the police and the army from the experience of the
16 colonel in Pec, and then what the police undertook to prevent cases
17 resulting in death contained in the tables here, and just one question on
18 cooperation with KFOR and UNMIK, and then I would like to go over some
19 numerical facts and figures contained in the tabs, and then I have to
20 dwell on another point. I'll tell you what it is straight away. Let me
21 see. 66(k), in fact. Since the witness was on the spot in the area and
22 it is the Dubrava prison, we have a tape that I would like to play, and it
23 is part of the investigation, the investigating material.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: That seems to be the most substantive outstanding
25 area for you to continue your examination. Perhaps you should concentrate
1 on that.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will certainly focus on that,
3 Mr. Robinson, however, I did wish to clarify all these other aspects.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, let's begin.
5 WITNESS: RADOVAN PAPONJAK [Resumed]
6 [Witness answered through interpreter]
7 Examined by Mr. Milosevic [Continued]
8 Q. Colonel, you were describing yesterday what the centre of Pec
9 looked like and the mass of people that had gathered there. You were
10 there on the spot, were you not?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Tell me, please, how were you able to move around that mass of
13 people? What were you wearing? What arms did you have?
14 A. Well, throughout the time, I was armed with just a pistol. I had
15 my belt, my pistol, and the police uniform with designation of rank.
16 Q. So that means you were wearing your regular police uniform and the
17 pistol on the belt is part of that, on your halter. Did you have any
18 other kind of weapons?
19 A. No. I never carried anything like that.
20 Q. Were you escorted by a security detail from the police with some
21 other weapons?
22 A. No, I was alone.
23 Q. So you were moving through this mass of people alone?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Was there any police cordon? You said there were very few
1 policemen there, so indirectly perhaps we can conclude that there was a
2 police cordon somewhere. Was there one anywhere?
3 A. No. The people were on the pavement and on the square, in the
4 square, and there was free passage along the road, but nobody of the --
5 the police didn't assure that passage. There was just this narrow passage
6 through which I could pass by in my car and reach the municipality
7 building on the square.
8 Q. Very well. So you've described that to us. None of the
9 authorities addressed the people. The people themselves spoke and said
10 things over the megaphone?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And when did the citizens who had gathered on the square leave the
14 A. I can't really say they left the square. I can say that they
15 would leave and come. There was a lot of coming and going. Some would
16 leave, others would come in, and this wasn't something that took place in
17 the space of an hour or two, it took several days.
18 Q. So you mean people were coming and going for several days?
19 A. Yes, precisely.
20 Q. And you said you saw buses but you said you didn't see any trucks;
21 is that right?
22 A. No, I didn't see buses, but I -- well, I said I saw buses
23 transporting people. I saw trucks, too, but I didn't see them
24 transporting any people, although I didn't actually see what was under the
25 awning, the tarpaulin.
1 Q. So tell me now, please, in point (e) it says in front of Prizren
2 the Kosovo Albanians were forced to leave the buses, et cetera, et cetera.
3 Now, did the buses regularly run between Pec and Prizren?
4 Q. There were a number of bus lines, regular lines, for example, ran
5 from Djakovica-Pec, Belgrade-Pec, Prizren-Pec, et cetera.
6 Q. So that's what I wanted to establish. The Pec-Prizren line, for
7 instance, did it run to Prizren or did it run to the Albanian border?
8 A. I don't know. I can't really say. I don't know what was going on
9 in the Prizren area. All I can tell you about is what was going in my own
11 Q. Just tell me this now, please: What directions did the citizens
12 leaving the area take? Where did they go?
13 A. They went in all directions. They went off in all directions;
14 towards Prizren, through Decani and Djakovica and towards Pristina,
15 towards Klina and towards Mitrovica, towards Istok, and towards Montenegro
16 across Kula.
17 Q. So those were the four basic directions that you have to go to
18 leave town, towards the north and Pristina. Some were going to the
19 south-east towards Prizren, others westwards towards Montenegro?
20 A. Yes, and there's another way across Cakor and the gorge but that
21 is a part of macadamised road surface and it's a fairly bad road so people
22 tend to avoid it. The Serbs avoided it constantly because that was the
23 terrain that the KLA held under its control and there were quite a number
24 of abductions of both Serbs and Albanians there and the terrain was
25 considered completely inaccessible security-wise.
1 Q. Yes. Let's just conclude. Now, are you saying that nobody, none
2 of the authorities -- you said that the army wasn't even there, there were
3 no soldiers there, that there was just policemen, so that nobody -- none
4 of the authorities, including the police, didn't force the citizens to
5 leave Pec. Is that what you're saying?
6 A. Precisely. That is precisely what I'm saying. And they couldn't
7 have forced them either. How could you force such a large mass of people
8 to leave? You couldn't. Anybody in my line of business would know that
9 if you have 10.000 people, then ten policemen can't do anything with those
10 10.000 even if they wanted to. Not even 50 or a hundred policemen would
11 be able to move, set this mass of people in motion if they didn't want to
12 go and didn't want to leave. And that was our experience throughout when
13 the mass demonstrations started in Kosovo and Metohija. We just weren't
14 able to do anything like that, whatever police force or whatever strength
15 we had on our side.
16 Q. Tell us now, how did the police behave in cases of air attacks?
17 What did they do in those cases?
18 A. Well, in the case of an air attack, our first aim was to establish
19 where it was happening, where it was taking place if it wasn't actually
20 where we were able to see it. So to pinpoint the actual location, to
21 reach the area as soon as possible, and to evacuate any wounded and
22 injured if there were any, to offer assistance to them, and to secure the
23 area in case of cluster bombs or anything like that. And after, to carry
24 out an on-site investigation if that was possible. We weren't able to
25 reach some of the areas and locations for a number of reasons. It was
1 either inaccessible terrain or it was under KLA control, the access roads
2 I mean, so we weren't able to carry out on-site investigations on quite a
3 number of places.
4 Now, we didn't file any criminal reports or anything of that kind.
5 We merely took note of them, registered them, and that remained in the
7 Q. Now, during the war, and I'm only speaking of your own experience,
8 what you personally know from the Pec area and the secretariat, was there
9 any resubordination of the police to the army?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. With respect to which activities did this resubordination take
13 A. With respect to combat operations and combat activities, so if
14 there was any fighting going on, any combat, the members of the police
15 were resubordinated to the army and within the frameworks of providing
16 security for those areas and taking measures for the sanitisation of the
17 terrain as well.
18 Q. Very well. Now, in addition to that kind of activity, the police
19 -- what other things did the police do?
20 A. The police went about its regular duties. If there was no
21 fighting or no combat, then we would get on with our jobs. At the time,
22 there was no significant combat in the area that I was there, so we were
23 able to go about our regular business mostly.
24 Q. When our police and army forces were replaced by the KFOR forces,
25 to what extent did the Serb population leave Kosovo and Metohija and when
1 did they do so?
2 A. From my area almost everybody left. In the area of Pec, about
3 1.000 inhabitants were left in the village of Gorazdevac and about 20
4 inhabitants in the village of Sokolac. All the rest left.
5 Q. At that time, were there any crimes committed against the Serbs?
6 A. Well, that was the reason why the Serbs left the area. After KFOR
7 came, after they took over the territory, I was the person who conducted
8 the hand-over with KFOR. They took over the territory. They guaranteed
9 that they would provide peace and order and security and safety for all
10 persons, but that did not happen. We saw ourselves that the members of
11 the so-called KLA came in uniform at the same time they did. They
12 patrolled the city. They were looking purportedly for Serbian criminals,
13 as they said, actually members of the military and the police. They asked
14 people to show their IDs. They broke into houses. Many people were
15 killed. Over 50 persons were killed. Many women were raped
16 and killed. Even children were killed and the elderly.
17 People left their homes and left altogether. I got out on the
18 25th of June, that is to say 14 days after they arrived.
19 Q. What you described to us now sounds like chaos and mass crimes.
20 A. Well, that's exactly the way it was.
21 Q. Did KFOR carry out its duty? Did they provide security and safety
22 for citizens?
23 A. No. They said quite openly to us that they could not guarantee
24 any safety and security. This was sometime after the 20th of June, when
25 endless columns of Albanians were going. They barged into houses like
1 savages. They took houses, they expelled Serbs from them. Then KFOR told
2 us that they could not guarantee any kind of safety to us, and we left
3 under their protection. These were convoys of Serbs protected by KFOR
4 with tanks and armoured vehicles.
5 Q. We are now looking at this entire period that you're testifying
6 about. In these documents there is a great deal of information. Can it
7 be said that all the dead, either Albanians or Serbs or members of other
8 ethnic communities, were found? Because you established in great detail
9 all the individual cases that are involved.
10 A. It cannot be said that all the dead were found. Quite simply, we
11 could not do that. We were not in a position to do that. There were a
12 lot of places that were inaccessible to us. Also, members of the
13 so-called Kosovo Liberation Army would take their own dead away. They
14 took the others, too, in the meantime, before we managed to arrive there.
15 They did it for several reasons, but the main reason was that if we were
16 to find the dead, we would identify them and then our attention would be
17 focused on that. We would establish who this was and we would start
18 criminal prosecutions. So that was one of the reasons.
19 They also wanted to cover up their own crimes, so they hid the
20 corpses of the killed Serbs as much as they could. Often we could not
21 reach the sites because there was the danger of being attacked. So we had
22 to carry out investigations while providing broad-base security for the
23 actual sites. This was not only in 1998 and 1999, it was also in 1997.
24 We would usually have to provide security in-depth at the site, and it was
25 only then that the investigation team could arrive, either with or without
1 an investigating judge.
2 That happened in 1997 and throughout 1998. When the on-site
3 investigation was carried out for the late Desimir Vasic, even helicopters
4 were used to provide security in the area because it was so --
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: May I intervene just very briefly.
7 Mr. Paponjak, in the document we were considering yesterday, which
8 was tab 1.4, you dealt with the deaths and the casualties in relation to
9 armed conflicts. Can you have that just briefly in front of you.
10 That document includes a number of incidents from the 25th of June
11 onwards, through July and into August.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: These are accounts of incidents which were
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have to have a look at all of this
16 and see what it's about.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Tab 1.4 is a list of security
18 related incidents resulting in death from 1 until the last number --
19 JUDGE BONOMY: My reason for asking you is that you were talking
20 about the KLA being responsible after the 25th of June for a number of
21 deaths of elderly people and children. Will these appear in tab 1.4?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for what we managed to establish
23 and find out, that is all contained in this tab 1.4. But in other tabs
24 there is information about persons who died and about who we do not have
25 much knowledge. We have a chapter about abducted persons and persons who
1 went missing. We don't know what their fate ultimately was. However,
2 since we don't know what happened to them for five years, we assume
3 that --
4 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no, no. Let's try to be specific,
5 Mr. Paponjak. You have said that a number of elderly people and children
6 were killed by the KLA after KFOR came on the scene, and I just wanted you
7 to point to a few examples for me, if you could, from this document.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this document, number 225, the
9 12th of June.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm talking about after the 25th of June, which was
11 the date you said chaos reigned.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] KFOR arrived on the 13th of June in
13 the area of Pec.
14 JUDGE BONOMY: All the more reason for not dealing with the 12th
15 of June.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But the 14th, then. From the 14th
17 onwards. We can deal with this in order. Each and every one of these
18 examples, there is at least one corpse involved.
19 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you point to the children and the elderly
20 people who were killed, which is the particular claim I'm concerned
21 about. In other words, the idea that the KLA were killing children and
22 elderly people. It's that point that I want you to deal with. I hope
23 you're in no doubt about the point I'm actually asking a question about.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand. From the concrete
25 cases -- we don't have any information here about the dates of birth, but
1 if you deal with the concrete cases, you can see exactly who the elderly
2 were and who the children were.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: See, my problem is it's not translated and
4 therefore I'm looking to you for guidance on the document and I was hoping
5 you could give me that quite quickly, but if it's a difficult exercise,
6 forget it and we'll move on with the examination.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] By your leave, just one explanation.
8 This document was not compiled for the Court, so perhaps it is therefore
9 inappropriate. However, we can handle this very easily. We can look at
10 all the individual cases and find the exact cases of this nature. This
11 was done for our own purposes, police purposes. So we are just presenting
12 it now as it is.
13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Colonel --
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I proceed, Mr. Bonomy?
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Certainly, Mr. Milosevic.
17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Colonel, is it obvious here from this survey, in order to
19 facilitate the explanation that Mr. Bonomy sought, from 229 onwards - and
20 229 is the date of the 14th of June, that is to say the date after the
21 arrival of KFOR - up to number 285, which is the end of this list, all of
22 these involve persons who had been killed? And according to the
23 information you have, 56 persons were killed in that period of time that
24 Mr. Bonomy was inquiring about, in the information that you have
1 A. I can say that that is the lowest figure that can be looked at
2 because there are a great many people who are still missing and we don't
3 know what their ultimate fate was. At least 56 were killed.
4 Q. You have information about 56 persons?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. For a certain number of persons you don't have information?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. So the number can only be bigger?
9 A. That's right.
10 Q. Tell me now, please, when looking at all the deaths involved, were
11 all cases reported to the police?
12 A. I cannot say that they were. I assume that not all were reported.
13 I cannot claim with any degree of certainty that all cases were reported
14 to the police.
15 Q. All right. In relation to what you established and where you had
16 information, were all criminal cases completed and could they have been
18 A. They were not completed. There are still open cases. We cannot
19 take any kind of action with regard to some of them, many of them, because
20 we are not in the territory where these crimes had been committed.
21 Persons we should interview are not accessible to us. We have no
22 cooperation whatsoever with the police that is in charge of such work
23 there now. We took initiatives several times in terms of working
24 together. Many cases would have been dealt with properly. It would have
25 been easier to identify the dead had we had this kind of cooperation.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 I found out here, and I saw some materials related to the
2 exhumations and post-mortems carried out by the Spaniards. We could have
3 perhaps easily identified these person. They haven't identified them yet.
4 Q. Colonel, you say that you proposed to cooperate with the police
5 and to resolve these cases. Did KFOR and UNMIK show any desire to
7 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ... stop the accused
8 spending his time in whatever he likes, but what is the relevance of all
9 this, I respectfully ask.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: You can say it goes to Article 7(3),
12 Mr. Milosevic, what's the relevance?
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You put the questions here,
14 Mr. Robinson, to one of the previous witnesses as to whether they
15 attempted to start some kind of cooperation. When I say "you," I'm not
16 referring to you personally but one of you, rather. Did they try to
17 establish some kind of cooperation with UNMIK and KFOR? So I'm putting
18 the same question to Colonel Paponjak, because he said that they had
19 attempted to cooperate. So I'm asking him whether UNMIK and KFOR
20 displayed any wish to carry through such cooperation. He already said
21 that not all the criminal cases were completed.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Deal with it briefly, Mr. Milosevic.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, he already would have answered
24 by now.
25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Did they show any wish to cooperate?
2 A. By way of declaration, yes. For example, specifically the killing
3 of children in August 2003 in Gorazdevac. They said that they could not
4 get to the area at all and that they could not establish contact with the
5 persons involved. We suggested that we cooperate, and I suggested that
6 two of my men join their team. However, we never managed to accomplish
8 The killing of these children is still unresolved, but we could
9 not work together, although from our side we proffered two experienced
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: That point has been sufficiently ventilated.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.
13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Colonel, let's try to deal with this as efficiently as possible,
15 and let's look at the numbers involved, those that are in the second part
16 of this document, the information on security related incidents resulting
17 in death, et cetera, et cetera. It's a very long heading in tab 1, the
18 one that we started looking at yesterday.
19 In tab 1.1, is there a list of all identified persons who were
20 dead in this period from the 10th of June, 1999, to the 1st of June, 2001?
21 A. I've just received the list.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Milosevic, in the index, which is all we have
23 in English, the heading for this tab starts off "Lists of identified
24 persons starved to death..." Is that a mistake in translation?
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Certainly. Certainly. It says
1 "List of persons who died," who lost their lives in that period. It must
2 be a technical mistake in the translation.
3 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Let us deal with this very briefly. Colonel, in tab 1.1, there is
6 a list of all persons who were identified, and it's presented in two ways,
7 as far as I can see; in terms of the case numbers, that is one of the ways
8 in which this was dealt with, and then there's a list of names in
9 alphabetical order.
10 A. Precisely.
11 Q. And then you have a list of cases involving unidentified persons
12 in the same tab.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. For the same period for the municipality of Pec or, rather, the
15 area of responsibility of the SUP of Pec.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. All right. That's 1.1. Now, tab 1.2. I hope that we will be
18 able to establish very easily what the information involved is.
19 First of all, let us clarify whether all this information is based
20 on specific individual cases.
21 A. Yes, they are. However, I would like to make a remark here;
22 namely, I can't say with any certainty that there aren't any discrepancies
23 here, and I will explain.
24 This data was compiled on the basis of the so-called incident log
25 that we keep at the police. The police can obtain information from any
1 citizen who can or may not identify himself. The police records whatever
2 the citizen has reported and continues working to establish the facts in
3 the case.
4 In this list, we have one case on record that we have not shed
5 light on until the end, but I do know for a fact that the incident didn't
6 really happen the way it was described. On this list of identified
7 persons who found their deaths in armed conflicts, we have a list of 73
8 people. That is the list that we compiled on the basis of initial data.
9 In fact, the number is not 73. It's much smaller. This case or some of
10 these cases fall under the competency of army authorities. However, in
11 this list we left the figures and the incidents that were reported to us
12 initially. We believe it is better to err on this side, on the side of
13 larger numbers. They can always be corrected if it proves necessary.
14 Q. Thank you, Colonel. That means that the police always puts on
15 record any report they get, and it remains in the incident log so that
16 later, if some additional information becomes available, it becomes useful
17 in establishing facts. The police does not remove from its records even
18 those things that seem incomplete until the file is closed.
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. Let us look at tab 1.2. I hope it has been translated by now.
21 The one I just received is actually A/III. Anyway, these are figures, so
22 it would be quite simple to look at them.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we put on the ELMO this table
24 from tab 1.2.
25 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ... in translation. I
1 don't know if the Court has. In fact, I think for the sake of purposes of
2 the record, none of the documents to which this witness has been referred
3 has been available in English translation thus far.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think we have list A/III.
5 JUDGE KWON: 1.5. Yes. We received translation of 1.5 but
6 nothing else.
7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. It says here A3/III. Well, I think it's quite possible to use
9 this data too, because under tab 1.2, which I mentioned, we have
10 information for the entire area of responsibility of the Pec SUP, and I
11 stand to be corrected, Colonel, if I'm mistaken about anything.
12 In this other tab, A3/III, we have this same kind of data for the
13 municipality of Klina, but the last figure --
14 A. Yes, the last figure is correct.
15 Q. With the only difference that in one of them we have a breakdown
16 by municipality, and in the other one we have breakdown by time period.
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. We could put this other table on the ELMO and then we can look at
19 the figures. Do you have 1.2 before you?
20 A. I have overview A2/III. That's the one I have.
21 Q. That is 1.2. Is this the overview of security related incidents
22 resulting in death that occurred in connection with armed conflicts in
23 Kosovo and Metohija from 1st of January, 1998, to the 1st of June, 2001 in
24 the area of SUP Pec by time period. First we have number of incidents and
25 then the number of corpses. Up to the middle of 1998, that is the first
1 column, then until the end, the 31st of December, 1980 -- 1998. Second
2 column, then we have from the 1st of January until the 23rd of March,
3 until the beginning of the war. The fourth column is the period of the
4 war, and the last column is post-war.
5 Could you put this table on the ELMO.
6 A. It seems to be already on the ELMO here in front of me.
7 Q. Now, regardless of the number of incidents, various incidents
8 involve a varying number of deaths. Now we look at the number of deaths.
9 A. Yes. That is 606.
10 Q. That is the total. But we can also see it broken down by these
11 various time periods.
12 A. In the first half of 1998, it was 42. In the first half of -- in
13 the second half of 1998 it was 81. Before the NATO aggression, 18.
14 During the NATO aggression 388, and post-NATO aggression 77. In total
16 Q. In this 388, does this number include the 73 that you mentioned
18 A. Yes, it does.
19 Q. Below that we see out of that Albanians and Others. Albanians in
20 total, 318; and Others in total, 288.
21 A. Correct. "Others" include all non-Albanians; Serbs, Romas, and
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, what are you seeking to establish
24 by these statistics?
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I hope, Mr. Robinson, that
1 these figures are self-explanatory, because you can see from them both the
2 ethnic structure, gender, and status. You will see under Status,
3 terrorists, civilians, unknown, men, women, children in the category of
4 Albanians; and in the category of Others you will see members of the army,
5 members of the MUP, civilians, men, women, children.
6 This is a very good table that shows how many people found their
7 deaths in various terrorist attacks mounted by Albanians, due to NATO
8 bombing, and in the course of perpetration of various crimes. This is a
9 very important table indeed, from which one can see that practically none
10 of the allegations - and I'm now speaking about the area covered by the
11 Secretariat of the Interior in Pec, and we will later see about the entire
12 Kosovo and Metohija - we will see that none of the allegations and none of
13 the charges that the Prosecution is trying to make against the state
14 authorities of Serbia are -- or the FRY are true.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... establishes
16 that. It establishes that people died. It doesn't establish how they
17 died or in what circumstances. There's no dispute that people died.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I have just said,
19 Mr. Robinson, that for the most part you can also see from this table the
20 circumstances of death. You can see, for instance, that there is a great
21 disproportion between the number of Albanians and non-Albanians who died.
22 Even if you doubt, if you have any doubts about what the colonel said
23 about the number of 73 who were killed --
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, let's move on.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.
1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Now, in terms of structure, when we compare Albanians and
3 non-Albanians, that is others, in your area you have 19 women who were
4 killed in total and twice as many -- more than twice as many, 44, among
5 non-Albanian population.
6 A. That is correct. You can see that clearly on this first page.
7 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm not following that.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes. It's very difficult for us to follow that
9 without having the interpretation.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Even if you set aside --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. The interpreters didn't
12 hear the question.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. I can explain what is
14 contained on the first page.
15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Please do that so that we can all understand. And since we all
17 see the numbers on the screen, use the pointer so that we can know what
18 we're talking about.
19 A. Here it says, "Number of corpses by national structure, gender,
20 and status." This column says "Number of Albanian corpses." The figure
21 is 318. Albanians are subdivided -- that is, the corpses of Albanians are
22 subdivided into terrorists, civilians, unknown. Terrorists, 73;
23 civilians, 245; unknown, nothing, none.
24 Again, by gender: Albanians, men, 298; women, 19; children, 1.
25 Then the number of other corpses by gender -- that is, the total
1 number was 288. By status: VJ members, 62; MUP members, 57; civilians
3 By gender: Men, 242; women, 44; children, 2.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, but what I don't understand is this: What
5 is established by this, by all these figures. People died. I don't think
6 there is any question about that. The question is, in what circumstances
7 did they die?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the next page you will find
9 precisely that.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On the following page, Mr. Robinson,
11 you have very clear statistics about that. If you turn the page, you will
12 see "Number of corpses by circumstances of death and ethnic structure."
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here we have the number of incidents
14 involved in terrorist attacks.
15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. This whole block deals with terrorist attacks.
17 A. In 166 terrorist attacks, 238 people died. Out of that, 53
18 Albanians and 185 others. This is what we see here.
19 Q. Then we have anti-terrorist attacks.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Who determines whether there was a terrorist
21 attack? Who makes that determination?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On-site inspections were made on the
23 spot. Investigating judges made on-site investigations, proper procedure
24 was followed, criminal reports were filed, and criminal proceedings were
1 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Paponjak, on the second page, column 5, which
2 is the 1st of January, 1999, until the 23rd of March, 1999, that's the
3 period immediately before the bombing, have I rightly understood that
4 there were only two deaths from terrorist attacks in the first column, two
5 in the next column, and two in the fourth column? That's a total of six
6 during that three-month period.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Remarkably peaceful then.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is possible that the competent
10 authorities failed to qualify certain incidents as terrorist attacks. We
11 have a problem in our law with the qualification of terrorist attacks.
12 Some things are qualified as terrorism and others are not.
13 JUDGE BONOMY: Can we rely on the statistics or can we not rely on
14 the statistics? You have to make your mind up.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Bonomy, kindly bear in mind that
16 in the fourth block on this page there is information about deaths that
17 occurred in the course of perpetration of crimes. So certain things that
18 were actually a terrorist attack could have been qualified as the crime of
19 murder. One and the same act was qualified as murder rather than a
20 terrorist attack.
21 When we had witness Gojovic here, a question was asked whether
22 certain acts should be qualified as war crime or murder, especially
23 multiple murder, which is a more grievous crime. That is up to the
24 prosecutor how to qualify a certain act. But in this case we have 14
25 people killed.
1 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ...
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Milosevic, when the evidence concentrates on
3 dates which are not part of the indictment, I have to ask myself the
4 question is there a reason for that? Why does the evidence not
5 concentrate on the dates that are part of the indictment? Is it because
6 there isn't any evidence to support you in that period?
7 It would help me greatly, and I make the point I'm speaking for
8 myself, if we could have clear evidence about the period covered by the
9 indictment, and that's why I focus on these months immediately before the
10 NATO bombing.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Bonomy, as far as I understand
12 it, the entire period is covered, and the fact that -- or, rather, what
13 you're saying now confirms my assertions that I have to prove here that it
14 is not -- that what is in the indictment is not correct and not Mr. Nice
15 to show that it is correct, and here we see that it is not correct.
16 JUDGE BONOMY: That's a deliberate misinterpretation of what I've
17 just said to you. You have chosen to lead the evidence, and when you do
18 that, it's up to you to lead evidence that's relevant. You can't, just
19 because you're in the phase of leading your evidence, lead whatever you
20 please whether it's relevant to the trial or not.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Bonomy, could you please explain
22 to me, then, how can it be irrelevant? How can what happened, for
23 example, in the whole of 1999 be irrelevant, or in 1998, for that matter?
24 In the indictment, they mention mid-1996. Here we have 1998, 1999, up
25 until the 5th of June, 2001. So this whole period is relevant.
1 JUDGE BONOMY: The only period during which you could be found
2 guilty criminally in this case is the period from the 1st of January,
3 1999, and indeed ending in June 1999.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Bonomy. If it is
5 from the 1st of January, 1999, then that goes to the 20th of June, which
6 means a vertical column number 5 and 6, and that is the most numerous, the
7 highest numbers there, because in columns 5 and 6 you have a total of over
8 400 people resulting in death. So that is more than two-thirds of the
9 total number.
10 JUDGE BONOMY: Please now return to your examination.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.
12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. In terrorist attacks, Colonel, how many people died? How many
14 were killed in the terrorist attacks, for which I hope we have provided
15 explanation as to how they were qualified and categorised.
16 A. The number of people who died was 166, or, rather, there were 166
17 attacks and 238 people were killed. Of that, 53 were Albanians and 185
18 were other.
19 Q. Yes. Now, in the anti-terrorist activities --
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. -- 35 died; is that right?
22 A. In anti-terrorist activities, and I'm trying to place this on the
23 overhead projector here --
24 Q. Anti-terrorist activities, 35 persons lost their lives, and
25 including KLA members, all Albanians.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. Yes, that's right. Now we come to the NATO bombing figures.
2 Twenty-four there --
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Colonel, could you explain to me, what are the
4 features of an anti-terrorist activity? What is a typical anti-terrorist
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A typical anti-terrorist activity is
7 an activity on the part of the police force which is planned and
8 organised, a planned and organised action on the part of the police to
9 repel or deblock a terrain. So it takes place based on a plan devised in
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ...
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right, a terrain
13 occupied by terrorists. That's right.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you in a position to give evidence about any
15 of these anti-terrorist activities? What actually happened during any of
16 these activities? I'm not talking now about the figures which you have
18 Because, Mr. Milosevic, it seems to me that that's what would be
19 important and helpful to your case, as I mentioned yesterday. If you have
20 evidence of an anti-terrorist activity carried out by the police and
21 during that activity Albanians and civilians were killed and there is a
22 charge in the indictment that relates to that particular activity, then
23 that's very relevant and helpful. But I'm not sure that we are helped
24 very much by statistics which show how many people were killed in
25 anti-terrorist activity. We need to know the precise circumstances
1 surrounding that activity, and that is what would enable the Chamber to
2 determine culpability. But the mere statistics are not helpful, because
3 they don't indicate the circumstances. We need evidence as to the
4 circumstances in which people died.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, we have documents
7 standing behind these figures on the basis of which these figures were
8 devised. So if we say that 35 persons were killed, or terrorists were
9 killed during anti-terrorist activities, that means that we have documents
10 on the basis of which that was established.
11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Now, Colonel, is it the aim of anti-terrorist activities to
13 liquidate or to arrest the perpetrators of the terrorist attacks? What
14 was it?
15 A. Well, it was never our goal to liquidate them. That goal does not
16 exist within the police force as such.
17 Q. So when you launch an anti-terrorist activity, your endeavour is
18 to apprehend the perpetrators of the terrorist attacks, and deaths incur
19 if there is resistance and if the perpetrators shoot at the police and
20 there is counter-fire from the police. Is that the situation that occurs
22 A. Yes, precisely.
23 Q. Now, we have the NATO bombing column. 144 persons lost their
24 lives there.
25 A. Yes. 145 deaths. Of that, 96 were Albanians, and the rest, 48.
1 Q. Right. Fine. Now we come to crimes. 148 persons killed there.
2 A. Yes. Of that number, 118 were Albanians, and others 30.
3 Q. Then we come to other or miscellaneous. I don't understand what
4 that actually means, but we won't dwell on that.
5 A. In different other events, in different instances.
6 Q. I see. There's a death through suicide, deaths in hospitals, et
7 cetera, et cetera, that kind of thing.
8 Right. Now, can you tell us, please, since you yourself were the
9 leader of collecting and classifying this material, you were in charge of
10 that, from this, from the material, can we see how deaths were incurred,
11 how these people lost their lives? Is that what they show, these
13 A. This was compiled on the basis of the documents that we have in
14 our possession. So we collected the documents, classified them and
15 processed them statistically, and from the tables we have lists, and the
16 lists deal with individual cases, individual incidents. And in each case,
17 we have the corresponding documentation provided by the investigating
18 judge or based on our own notes or collected in other ways.
19 Q. Now, in the -- in block number 4, it says the number of on-site
20 investigations, and we see that the number there is 126. That's quite a
21 lot less than the number of incidents.
22 A. Yes, it is completely disproportionate, but the reason is that
23 on-site investigations quite simply could not be conducted because there
24 were 229 to begin with, and 216 on-site investigations. 298 is the
1 Q. Now, do you think that is a high percentage or not?
2 A. Yes, it is a high percentage, and this was done thanks to the
3 efforts of the investigating judge and organs in general.
4 Q. We see that in most cases the on-site investigation was conducted
5 with the presence of an investigating judge; is that right?
6 A. Yes. 126 were just the police there, and one which was
8 Q. And we see that 174 cases there was no on-site investigation.
9 Could you tell us why? What were the reasons that that wasn't able to be
11 A. Because the situation was unsafe. It was unsafe for the people
12 who were supposed to carry out the on-site investigation, because of
13 attack or their impossibility to reach the scene of the crime. And I said
14 that certain on-site investigations had to be conducted with the
15 assistance of helicopters, for example.
16 JUDGE KWON: Excuse me, Mr. Milosevic. Can I hear from the
17 witness a bit more about the murdered people by crime. I heard that there
18 are 148 people who were killed in all, but in particular, I see there are
19 108 people died during the period of war. Among them, most of them are
20 Albanians, 93 people. And 18 and none others, non-Albanians.
21 Could you elaborate a bit more on this? What are those crimes,
22 and do you know the circumstances, how these people were killed? So I
23 assume that those Albanians are killed possibly by the local Serbs or --
24 including paramilitaries. Do you have any idea on this?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand your question. We
1 started doing this work, that is to say, after analysing the incidents
2 resulting in death, criminal acts were against Albanians, and we wanted to
3 investigate and see what happened there.
4 In this figure 93, the 93 figure which is the subject of our
5 attention here, we include the figure of 73 unidentified persons for an
6 incident in which we were -- which we were not able to check out but we
7 nonetheless included it in the table. And in that event, according to
8 some information that I have which need not be absolutely correct, there
9 might be less than 20. So this figure could be reduced by 50 straight
10 away, and then it would make it 40-odd.
11 Now, these were different types of crimes. For example, a father
12 killed his son, a husband killed his wife, and all that is included into
13 that column.
14 Now, I myself don't remember whether we have a case where a Serb
15 killed an Albanian in this particular section. I can't remember anything
16 like that. But of course, if I were to look through the documents, that I
17 would be able to tell you quite clearly.
18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Colonel. I think that's the furthest I
19 can hear from you.
20 Proceed, Mr. Milosevic.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Kwon.
22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Now, here we see the figure of 144 for persons who died in the
24 NATO bombing. How many bombings did NATO effect in your area?
25 A. I don't know the exact figure, but about 100 sorties.
1 Ninety-seven, I think. That is another fact that is contained in the
3 Q. Here we can see that overall in the NATO bombing 144 persons lost
4 their lives in your area, in the area of your SUP.
5 A. Yes, that's right. And this figure of 24, number 24 for the NATO
6 bombings, number of NATO bombings, that refers to more serious cases with
7 consequences; but otherwise, attacks with bombings, there were 97 of
8 those, or thereabouts.
9 Q. And we're just talking about your particular area, the area
10 comprised by your SUP; is that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And where did the bombing have the worst consequences?
13 A. The worst consequences of the bombing were in the Dubrava prison,
14 the correction centre, and at Savine Vode. In the Dubrava correction
15 centre, about 100 persons lost their lives, and at Savine Vode, I think
16 the figure was 24.
17 Q. Let's just go back for a moment to the question of crimes,
18 criminal acts, as raised by Mr. Kwon. How many on-site investigations
19 were conducted in respect of those crimes? Do you have those facts and
21 A. As to number of on-site investigations conducted, this refers to
22 all on-site investigations. So we haven't distinguished how many for
23 crimes, how many for anti-terrorist activities or NATO bombings, et
24 cetera. So during that period of time, 33 on-site investigations were
25 conducted by investigating judges, 13 by the police, and another was
1 partially conducted, which means a total of 46.
2 Q. Very well. Now, do you think there are any other -- that there is
3 any other characteristic information that we can comment on here, anything
4 else of interest?
5 A. Perhaps I could draw your attention to the facts and figures as to
6 the number of persons or bodies interred, buried, and what crimes were
8 Q. Where do you have that information as to the crimes solved?
9 A. That's on the last page.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I have allowed you to question the
11 witness on these untranslated documents as a courtesy to facilitate your
12 examination, and also because the same courtesy was extended to the
13 Prosecution during its -- the presentation of its case, but I have to say
14 that it's very difficult for me to follow what is in the document. One
15 can see the figures, but the -- what the figures are -- relate to is not
16 translated, and it's -- I pick it up from what you say and what comes
17 through the translation, but it does -- it is really very difficult, and I
18 wonder whether it is the best course. It's a matter which I'll discuss
19 with my colleagues, to have the evidence presented in this way, even
20 though we did the same thing in relation to the Prosecution when the
21 passages were relatively short. But let us see whether we can get beyond
22 the documents now and move on to Dubravica.
23 MR. NICE: Your Honour, as to this particular document and any
24 other documents that the accused may seek to put in in support of it, I
25 reserve my position. I don't think there was any occasion in the course
1 of the Prosecution's case where material of this kind was relied on for
2 this kind of extensive examination, and I observe that what we've probably
3 been having is as close to an expert analysis of other material. I'm not
4 quite sure what we've got until I ask a few questions of the witness but I
5 may say I reserve my position on this material. I'm certainly not going
6 to be able to cross-examine in detail on it, not the least because it's
7 untranslated but for other reasons as well.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think you're right in relation to the
9 Prosecution not having documents of this kind, statistics, not translated,
10 but we certainly extended the courtesy to the Prosecution in relation to
11 other kinds of documents which were short, and that was done quite
13 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you Mr. Robinson. I just wish
15 to draw your attention to the following: These are official documents of
16 the Ministry of the Interior which were compiled and verified by the new
17 authorities on the basis of all the information available.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think you have missed the point. Let's move
19 on. Let's move on quickly.
20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Colonel --
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, could we finish tab 1
23 now. I've already said to you yesterday that this is a single document
24 that was subdivided to -- into six groups, 1.1 to 1.6. It was subdivided,
25 but it is still a single document and it contains information about all
1 the deaths involved in this period from the 1st of January, 1998, to 1st
2 of June, 2001. This is a list of all the incidents involved. It contains
3 all the statistics. It's an official document. The author -- well, no,
4 not the author, because several persons were involved. But it is a
5 verified document.
6 JUDGE KWON: To better understand this statistics, given that we
7 have an English translation of tab 1.5, could you briefly go through that
9 MR. NICE: Your Honour, it may help if I make my position clear
10 now, I think. If, for example, the large tab, 1.4, is to be relied on as
11 supporting material, but in fact if any of these tabs are relied on as
12 supporting material one of the other, and if the summary or whatever it is
13 at tab 1 itself, the information are to be advanced as exhibits that can
14 be produced, I would urge the Chamber to rule otherwise. It is wholly
15 unrealistic to think that I or anybody on my team or the Court will be
16 able to get back and to look at in detail, for example, 1.4 after the
17 witness has left the court. It will be unrealistic to think that we'll
18 ask for the witness to come back to be cross-examined on this material,
19 and the material will simply be put in without ever being understood or
20 considered in the course of evidence or in advance of cross-examination.
21 It's the accused's fault that this material is not available in
22 translation. It may well be, actually, his fault that he didn't prepare
23 this material for production by service of a report in advance.
24 I can't deal with this material, and I would invite the Chamber
25 not, either automatically or in due course, to allow it to be admitted as
1 evidence. It doesn't help the Chamber and is going to burden us with
2 material we can't consider.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: I have a lot of sympathy for your submission, Mr.
4 Nice, as I am having a lot of difficulty with it, and 1.4 is exceedingly
5 long. But what we have done in the past, Mr. Nice, is we have marked the
6 documents for identification pending translation, but I believe the point
7 you are making is that examination is being carried out on the basis of
8 the untranslated documents.
9 I'm going to consider this matter with my colleagues.
10 JUDGE KWON: But as far as tab 1.4 is concerned, did you not say
11 that you would not oppose to admitting it when it was being dealt with
13 MR. NICE: I didn't opposed yesterday's. I wanted to see what was
14 going to be dealt with in evidence by the documents and because I've
15 always attempted to be as easy-going and generous with the accused as I
16 can, and I'm not going to stop, but I simply can't do the job for which
17 I'm engaged. I can't give the assistance to the Chamber, and Your
18 Honour's quite right that we sometimes admit material like this pending
19 translation and then the document goes in when translated. My point is
20 that that shouldn't happen in this case because it is unrealistic to think
21 that we'll ever get back to this material in a meaningful way, and the
22 consequence is that the witness will have given evidence without being
23 properly examined as he should be, and there's nothing I can do about it.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll consider the matter.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll allow Mr. Milosevic to continue examining
2 on the documents, and we'll rule on the Prosecution's submission at the
3 end of the examination.
4 JUDGE KWON: And I misread some dates and figures in tab 1.5, so
5 you don't have to deal with that. I withdraw my request.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let me just clarify one more thing
7 for you. While you were conferring now, I looked at tab 1.4. Mr. Bonomy
8 put questions that had to do with persons killed after the 14th of June,
9 1999. Out of -- or, rather, from 221 or 229 to 285, those were the
10 relevant incidents. That is to say 37 incidents altogether -- no, sorry,
11 57 incidents altogether, and that's what I said when Mr. Bonomy put his
12 question. However, it is not a question of 57 dead persons. It is 57
13 incidents. In some incidents there were two dead persons involved, in
14 some there were four, in some there were none.
15 So the number of dead that can be seen from this survey from the
16 -- from incident number 229 on the 14th of June to 285, the number of
17 deaths involved is much larger than the number of incidents, because in
18 most cases it is one, but in some there are two, some involve seven
19 deaths, and some involve four. So please bear that in mind.
20 In this list in tab 1.4, all incidents involving deaths were
21 included, and these are the result of all the statistics that were
22 processed. And the relevant authorities in Serbia have accompanying
23 information for each and every one of these cases.
24 I believe that it is clear enough why this is important, and these
25 are official documents at that.
1 A few moments ago, you mentioned that you received a translation
2 of tab 1.5. Tab 1.5 is a list of security related incidents resulting in
3 death from the 10th of June, 1999 to the 1st of June 2001. In those two
4 years, only in the area of Pec.
5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Please, Colonel, take a look at this tab 1.5.
7 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Milosevic, you don't have to deal with that.
8 Let's move on. I said I would withdraw my question.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Fine, Mr. Kwon.
10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Colonel, let us move on to tab 2. In tab 1, you provided
12 information. Let me not repeat this time and again, it has to do with
13 your area of responsibility of the SUP of Pec. It is information about
14 crimes committed against Albanians. This includes most of the answers to
15 the questions related to Albanians as victims.
16 A. That's right.
17 Q. Since you are the signatory of this particular brief as well and
18 since you are testifying here now, please be so kind as to look at the
19 information that you provided in tab 2 in this brief. You say on page 2
20 and in paragraph 2: "The police acted in accordance with the law and
21 treated all citizens equally."
22 Did the police treat all citizens equally regardless of whether
23 they were Serbs, Albanians, Roma, or anybody else?
24 A. Absolutely.
25 MR. NICE: Your Honour, it is necessary occasionally to see the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 lighthearted side of things. We've now reached the following interesting
2 form of examination: A witness writes down some observation which is
3 clearly a general conclusion with or without any ability to make such a
4 conclusion. Because it's in a document, the accused is then able to lead
5 the conclusion to him. Well, it's a valueless question and would be a
6 valueless answer.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. It's an exceedingly leading
8 question that you asked.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: The index -- can I ask you again about the index to
10 this because it's the only English guidance we have. 2. -- So tab 2 is
11 described as "Information on criminal acts committed on the loss of
12 Albanians." Now, that can't be an accurate translation. What should it
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] These are crimes whose victims are
15 Albanians. Mr. Paponjak presented here --
16 JUDGE BONOMY: Are they all deaths of Albanians in every case?
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not deaths in all cases, but they
18 are crimes in each and every one of the cases. So it's crimes committed
19 against Albanians.
20 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And then in tab 3, crimes committed
22 against Serbs. Then in tab 4, crimes committed against the Roma. Then in
23 tab 5, terrorist acts against the police. So that -- against the
24 Albanians, against the Serbs, against the Roma, against the police.
25 Then after that, information about registered security related
1 incidents concerning missing persons and abducted persons from the 1st of
2 January, 1998, to the 1st of June, 2001. In all fairness, kidnappings
3 continued after that but we do not have information about it here. So
4 when it says crimes against Albanians, it means that the injured party
5 involved are Albanians, regardless of whether they had been killed or
6 whether their property had been looted or whatever.
7 Since you said that the question and the answer were totally
8 irrelevant now, I would like to draw your attention to the fact that I
9 quoted a paragraph from this brief which is an official document and where
10 it says that the police took actions in accordance with the law, treating
11 all citizens equally. I did not put a leading question. I quoted what
12 the document says, and on the basis of that, I put a question to the
13 witness who is sitting here right now, whether the police treated all
14 citizens equally, because I wanted to double-check what is stated in this
15 document is true.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: You should have asked the witness, "How did the
17 police treat citizens?" and then he would have answered, perhaps, "They
18 treated all citizens equally."
19 But it's time for the break. We're well beyond that time. We'll
20 take a break of 20 minutes.
21 --- Recess taken at 10.37 a.m.
22 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic, continue.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Robinson.
25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Colonel, on the next page where we have an analysis of data, we
2 left off at this brief on crimes against Albanians. It says in the area
3 of the secretariat, a total of 208 -- 1.289 crimes were committed, after
4 which 303 against Albanians.
5 A. 190 with perpetrators unknown, and 104 with known perpetrators.
6 Q. It says 302 criminal reports were filed, out of which 198 against
7 unknown perpetrators.
8 MR. NICE: I don't know where the accused is reading from. If he
9 could help us.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Where exactly are you, Mr. Milosevic, in
11 the document?
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am now in tab 2. That is
13 information or a brief on criminal acts committed against Albanians.
14 JUDGE KWON: Page 3 of tab 2 put on the ELMO. I think it's the
15 first page -- first paragraph of that page.
16 MR. NICE: And can I --
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is an analysis of data, that is
18 the sub-heading.
19 MR. NICE: And can I suggest if the accused going to take the
20 witness to a paragraph, rather than the accused read out his own summary
21 of it, it would be easier for all of us if he gets the witness to read the
22 paragraph and we can make notes about it ourselves, but it's very hard
23 both to pick up a paragraph in the Cyrillic script and to hear and accept
24 the accused's summary of it.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. That's a useful --
1 JUDGE KWON: Next page. Yes. That should be 2. I see the number
2 1.289 there.
3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. That is the page in front of you, Colonel.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. How many criminal reports were filed concerning these criminal
8 A. That is in paragraph 2 of this -- under this sub-heading. 302
9 criminal reports were filed, including 198 against unknown perpetrators,
10 104 against known perpetrators, and 191 reports as supplements to criminal
11 reports after the crimes have been solved and perpetrators identified.
12 That is common. If you file a criminal report against a known
13 perpetrator, the case is eventually solved and an additional report is
14 filed to the Prosecutor.
15 Q. Explain just one more matter here. In paragraph 1 you say that a
16 total of 303 criminal acts were perpetrated against Albanians, and you
17 said -- you quoted from paragraph 2 that 302 criminal reports were filed,
18 which means that one report was not filed.
19 A. Yes, because we established that it was a case involving NATO
20 bombing, so no criminal report was filed.
21 Q. Very well. Out of the total of crimes against Albanians, how many
22 perpetrators were caught on the spot?
23 A. In the police, we call it catching somebody red handed, and we had
24 86 such cases caught in the act.
25 Q. What is the structure of solved cases?
1 A. 27 terrorism, 14 thefts, 33 aggravated thefts, robberies 9,
2 aggravated robberies 3, and we have 2 crimes that are qualified as causing
3 general threat to safety.
4 Q. Did you establish -- did you identify the perpetrators in the
5 cases of crimes against Albanians according to their ethnic structure?
6 A. That is one of the parameters that were of interest to us in our
7 investigations. In 67 per cent of cases, perpetrators were Albanians,
8 Albanians that committed crimes against Albanians, whereas in 23 per cent
9 of cases the perpetrators were Serbs.
10 You will notice that there is another 10 per cent missing. Those
11 10 per cent are accounted for by others.
12 Q. You mean Roma, Muslims, et cetera.
13 A. We didn't record it because it was of no particular interest.
14 Q. Did policemen, when they were taking measures to protect citizens
15 and their property during the state of war, arrest any Serbs for
16 committing crimes against Albanians?
17 A. Policemen arrested all Serbs whom they established to have
18 committed crimes against Albanians. 70 Serbs were placed in detention for
19 committing such crimes against Albanians. Among them was a director of a
20 company who was caught in the act of committing a crime against an
21 Albanian. So we did not discriminate on the basis of ethnicity. Instead,
22 as soon as we identified a perpetrator of a crime, we arrested him or her,
23 these people were brought into custody, and proceedings were initiated
24 against them.
25 Q. Did you have any criminal proceedings instituted against a member
1 of the police?
2 A. Yes, there have been such criminal acts. Criminal reports were
3 filed against four regular policemen and three reserve policemen. I can
4 say that these policemen, too, were arrested and placed in detention
5 regardless of the fact that they were policemen. They committed a
6 criminal act, criminal reports were filed, and criminal proceedings were
8 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Milosevic, I understand you are following this
9 information or report, but for us it's difficult to distinguish what is
10 your comment and what is the report, what is written as the report here.
11 So if you could ask the witness to read the -- the paragraph and then ask
12 question, if any.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I was precisely trying, Mr. Kwon,
14 not to indulge in commentary or leading questions but to elicit
15 information from the witness.
16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Still, Colonel, please read paragraphs 1, 2, and 3 -- no, sorry,
18 let us say fifth paragraph, beginning with "Perpetrators of criminal
19 acts..." and the following couple of paragraphs.
20 A. "The perpetrators of criminal acts are Albanians in 67 per cent of
21 the cases." That is the fifth paragraph under the sub-heading. "And
22 Serbs in 23 per cent of the cases. Members of the police, while taking
23 measures to protect citizens and their property during the state of war,
24 placed under arrest 70 Serbs for crimes committed against Albanians. This
25 number includes one director of a state-owned enterprise. Four criminal
1 reports were filed against policemen from the regular force and three
2 against policemen from the reserve force."
3 Q. Why did you make this distinction among the seven policemen who
4 were the subject of criminal reports?
5 A. We were interested in the structure because reserve policemen are
6 not professional policemen. They are reservists, as we call them. In
7 other words, citizens who had been trained for police work, and as the
8 need arises and upon orders of the minister, they may be engaged for
9 security work for a certain period. So these are not professionals but
10 people who have had some amount of quick training for this kind of work.
11 Q. What is written in the paragraph that follows?
12 A. "On the basis of a well-grounded suspicion that these persons have
13 committed criminal acts, members police -- members of the police have
14 turned over to military authorities 75 persons belonging to the reserve
15 force of the army of Yugoslavia, accompanied by an Official Note."
16 Q. You mean to say that you didn't arrest these people?
17 A. No. We would find these people wearing uniforms which were not
18 our uniforms. We knew they were not policemen. We would turn them over
19 to the army for them to go on investigating and to establish whether they
20 were their own members, because they needed to be identified.
21 Q. The next paragraph speaks about attempts of joint action -- read
22 that out.
23 A. "Attempts at joint activity between the police and the military
24 police did not yield the results that were expected for the reason that
25 military policemen were from the reserve force, insufficiently trained for
1 this kind of work. In addition, this force included individuals whose
2 earlier record indicated criminal conduct. The situation was considerably
3 improved after the arrival of regular units from the military police."
4 Q. Did that change eventually?
5 A. After the state of war was proclaimed in the territory of the Pec
6 municipality, military policemen of the reserve force were mobilised, and
7 their commander was also from the reserve force. They initially did not
8 perform very well, because they were sometimes required to act in relation
9 to their own neighbours and they found that difficult. They did this very
10 clumsily. But later, we started working at joint checkpoints, joint
11 patrols, et cetera, and they started functioning much better.
12 Q. Read on.
13 A. "There were no cases in which the police released or acquitted
14 criminals or cases where criminals were tolerated. On the contrary, all
15 perpetrators were subjected to appropriate legal measures. The facts
16 speak unequivocally to the fact that the police undertook all legal
17 measures against all criminals regardless of their ethnicity or the unit
18 they belonged to."
19 In light of arrests made against Serbs, negative comment appeared
20 among the Serbian population to the effect that Serbs were being
21 persecuted during the state of war. The MUP staff in Pristina and the
22 commanding officers of the SUP did not make any orders to enable the
23 perpetration of criminal acts. On the contrary, the orders were to
24 suppress any sort of criminal activity and to undertake urgent measures
25 against perpetrators.
1 Q. About this, I want to ask you, does this refer to Serbs who
2 committed criminal acts?
3 A. Yes. The citizens thought that they were being unjustly treated.
4 They were being bombed on the one hand, and they were perhaps expecting
5 the police to help them. And then they thought it unfair when we arrested
6 their own neighbours for theft or such things, but we were just doing our
7 work and we were arresting criminals.
8 I came to Pec from Cacak. Cacak is populated entirely by Serbs.
9 And then I find myself in a totally different environment where things are
10 completely different. In Cacak I would have never had such a problem.
11 So we tried to explain to the population that our action is
12 directed against criminals, regardless of a whether a person is a Serb, an
13 Albanian, a Roma, or other.
14 Q. Colonel, did you have a single case wherein a Serb who was known
15 to have committed a criminal act was tolerated, released, got off
17 A. No.
18 Q. Very well. Let's now move on to tab 2.1, which is a review of the
19 crimes against Albanians. Can you give us brief comments, because this is
20 just statistics taken out of the documents.
21 A. I'll try and place this on the overhead projector.
22 Q. Right. Let me just ask you this: How many on-site investigations
23 were conducted?
24 A. In 105 cases on-site investigations were carried out by the police
25 pursuant to authorisation from the investigating judge, 56 by the
1 investigating judge himself, 46 by the organs of the army of Yugoslavia
2 investigating organs, three there, partial on-site investigations in eight
3 cases, and no on-site investigations in 190 cases. The crime documents
4 were compiled for 102 cases.
5 Q. Thank you, Colonel.
6 Do I need to comment on tab -- or, rather, would you like to
7 comment on tab 2.2, because articles of the Criminal Code are listed, or
8 of the Criminal Code of Serbia in view of the different crimes and the
10 A. I think this is more or less clear if you compare it to the
11 provisions of the Criminal Code and the crimes listed. 62 is terrorism,
12 for example. Article 125 is the Criminal Code of the Federal Republic of
13 Yugoslavia. It is the crime of terrorism and there are 62 such cases.
14 Then another example, 141 or 2, that was something else. But 46 of the
15 Criminal Code of Serbia is murder, killings, and there were 23 cases of
16 that. Then article 47/19 refers to attempted murder. There were five of
17 those. 53 are bodily injuries. Article 53 refers to bodily injuries of
18 the Criminal Code. 103 of the Criminal Code of the Republic of Serbia are
19 sexual crimes and rapes. Then we have a series of crimes against
20 property. 165 is theft. There were 43 of those. Article 166 of the
21 Criminal Code of Serbia was grave aggravated assault. 868 was robbery
22 with violence, et cetera.
23 Q. Very well. Colonel, in tab 2.3, did you provide a list like the
24 general list in tab 1? Is this a list of the crimes committed against
25 Albanians in the period between the 1st of January, 1998, until the 10th
1 -- until the 10th of June, 1999?
2 A. Yes. Each chapter, first of all, contains a list, and the list
3 was compiled on the basis of individual threats, basis, that is, and it
4 contains a short description of the case of what happened, and on the
5 basis of this list the tables were compiled because that's statistics as
6 derived from the list, and on the basis of the list and the tables we
7 compiled a brief report that you will find at the beginning of each
8 chapter, and it is the general picture of the conditions under which the
9 work was done, the circumstances of the crime itself, and a brief analysis
10 which the individual encountering the case for the first time gains a
11 general impression of it, of what happened.
12 So the information or report is a general overview, the tables are
13 statistics, and number 3 is the list with individual incidents and events
14 on the basis of which the other two were compiled.
15 Now, in the archives or, rather, the records of the SUP of Pec,
16 there are cases and files for each of these crimes, acts. Some of them
17 are larger in scope, the document is more lengthy. Others are shorter
18 documents, and depending on what we were able to find.
19 Q. Very well. So this list was compiled for each of the cases and
20 incidents. We see that they were all against Albanians, Serbs, Romas,
21 police, et cetera, et cetera, so different types.
22 Now, Colonel, can we from these documents that you have provided
23 for us in the tabs, can we see from those the specific examples? And by
24 taking those examples, can we see how each case was dealt with, as you've
25 just explained it to us? That is to say that they are recorded -- the
1 cases are recorded in the SUP of Pec, and you have brought with you just a
2 number of examples, have you not?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Very well. So here we have a comprehensive or fairly broad
5 examination of the cases for a number of victims. Now, I'm going to ask
6 you, depending on what we find in each of the tabs --
7 JUDGE KWON: Just a minor --
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let me just take a look.
9 JUDGE KWON: Just a minor qualification. Tab 2.1 and 2.2 are
10 identical in my binder and the Presiding Judge's. I would like just to
11 check whether it is the case with other people in the courtroom.
12 MR. NICE: It's identical in ours, so far as I can see.
13 MR. KAY: Not in ours. We've got up in the top right-hand corner
14 B2/III for 2.1, and 2.2 is B3/III.
15 MR. NICE: No -- sorry.
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes, that number differs but the content of the
17 statement is --
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I explain? May I explain?
19 B2/III, that is to say tab 2.1, contains a review of the events by the
20 time periods, whereas B3/III, that is tab 2.2, is according to the
21 municipalities, Pec, Istok, Klina. They are collective figures. The
22 collective -- the end figure is the same, the end figures, however the
23 rest is different.
24 Now, as an example --
25 JUDGE KWON: I note that.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Since you spoke about the different
2 cases, the detailed ones, we have here examples of lists relating to
3 individual cases. We have a case which relates to the killing of Djordja
4 Belic, for example, the killing of Desimir Vasic. So they're two Serbs.
5 Then we come to Alia Rizah, an Albanian.
6 MR. NICE: I don't know where we're reading from.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, just pinpoint the particular
9 MR. NICE: And since the accused has been giving an explanation of
10 the document, he seemed to have been speaking about 2.3 and seemed to be
11 saying, but I may have misunderstood him, that 2.3 wasn't all the
12 supporting document of its category but was a selection. I find that hard
13 to believe it must -- could be right, given that it's apparently a
14 document prepared as part of a report and it has sequential numbers, so
15 I'm completely confused.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm sorry if I have not been clear
17 enough in what I'm asking the witness. We went through tab 2, and the
18 witness said that each of the numbers contained therein are supplemented
19 by the case, whereas the entire file on each of these numbers and cases is
20 to be found at the Secretariat of the Interior of Pec.
21 Now, as we have some cases here, that is to say in tab 20 - so
22 it's no longer tab 2, it's tab 20 now - and some other tabs following that
23 one, and it is in binder number 5 of the seven binders.
24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. So as I was saying, in tab 20, Colonel, in tab 20.1, 20.2, 20.3,
1 and 20.4, do they contain detailed documents about the killings in this
2 case -- the killing in this case of Belic Djordja? Do you have that
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Perhaps the witness may be provided
5 with the binder to keep in front of him for the time being.
6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Milosevic, this relates to the 12th of January,
7 1998. When you come to the end of this case and you make your closing
8 submissions to the Chamber, what are you going to say that this
9 establishes in relation to this trial?
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is what this establishes --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Milosevic, please.
12 Microphone for the accused, please. Microphone.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Bonomy, let's clear up one
14 point: If I were to go through all the documents and all the information
15 that the legal organs have at their disposal and in their possession, that
16 would be a vast quantity of documents. Here we have taken documents from
17 the secretariat of Pec, just a number of cases which illustrate the cases
18 that have to do with Albanians and Serbs and from which we can see that an
19 identical -- they were dealt with in an identical way. The police, the
20 investigating organs acted identically when it came to the killing of
21 Albanians and the killing of Serbs. That is why I would like to draw to
22 your attention the fact that we could have had several thousand or at
23 least 1.200 or whatever number of cases when it comes to Albanians, and
24 then just as many when it comes to Serbs and the Roma and policemen,
25 soldiers, and so on and so forth. However, we have taken a set number of
1 cases and incidents by way of example to show you the kinds of cases we
2 had to deal with. For example, Belic Djordja in the tab I said, or Rizah
3 Alia, who was an Albanian -- the first man was a Serb -- or the Kuci
4 Skender case, or the killing of Djuka Adem and Djuka Bakir, they are all
5 Albanians, or the case of Sukaj Cerim, another Albanian, or Vasic Desimir,
6 a Serb. So we have taken a cross-section of cases including both Serbs
7 and Albanians. We also have the killing of six young men in the Panda
8 Cafe, which is contained in several of the tabs.
9 JUDGE BONOMY: I have to make the same comment as I made earlier:
10 I have difficulty seeing how this will assist me to determine whether
11 criminal acts were committed between the 1st of January and the 20th of
12 June, 1999.
13 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'm in the Court's hands as to whether the
14 accused presses on with this, but if he does, I'd be assisted by knowing
15 whether 20.1, which is dated apparently the 12th of January, 1998, is
16 something we should be cross referring to a sub-entry, as it were, in tab
17 2.3. I have may have completely misunderstood the potential for
18 connection, but in tab 2.3, the nearest I can get to the 12th of January
19 is number 10, which is the 12th or 13th of January, and so far I haven't
20 been able to pick up, I think, the -- the name Belic Djordja. So I'm a
21 little confused as to how these things correlate if at all.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] To clarify matters: We're not
23 talking about the links between tabs 2 and 3 and tab 20. What we're
24 talking about is placing the evidence before you that the police and the
25 investigating organs acted identically in cases when -- of Serb killings
1 or Albanian killings. They dealt with the cases in the same way. The
2 same documents were compiled, the same procedure followed, and there was
3 no difference, and this is a number of examples --
4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Nice, the answer may lie in the fact that 2.3
5 deals only with cases in which Albanians were victims, and then we have
6 all these other tabs which deal with others. So it may be that this one
7 can be found in another of the summaries, I'm not sure.
8 MR. NICE: Yes, Your Honour, I'm grateful. I've been moving --
9 I'm grateful and I've been moving towards that inference myself. Thank
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: So, Mr. Milosevic, let me understand. You say
12 the significance of this evidence is that it shows that the police did not
13 discriminate against Albanians; they treated Albanians and Serbs equally.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Correct. And when it came -- in
15 cases of perpetrators and victims alike. That of course does not relate
16 to the entirety of the testimony but just the tabs that I've quoted. The
17 entirety of the testimony refers to the overall conduct of the police, the
18 alleged accusations of deportation, expulsions, and so on and so forth.
19 But when we're talking about investigations that were conducted pursuant
20 to crimes committed and conduct with the -- towards the perpetrators of
21 those crimes or the victims of those crimes, the police acted in equal
22 fashion both towards the Albanians and the Serbs.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: And what would you say in answer to Judge
24 Bonomy's query as to why 1998? Is that to show the history, that there
25 was a history of non-discriminatory treatment?
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The history of non-discriminatory
2 treatment can exist for decades prior to that, but if you take a look at
3 1998, for example, when there was no war, the police acted the same way
4 when it came to conducting an investigation of killings as it did during
5 the war. Quite simply, the police has no other way of conducting its
6 investigations and doing its job but acting in accordance with the law
7 governing internal affairs, on the basis of laws and provisions. It acts
8 the same way in wartime and in peacetime when it comes to treating the
9 perpetrators of crimes or the victims of crimes.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us try and conclude this part of the
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. Robinson, I believe that
13 these examples speak very tellingly of the facts mentioned by the witness,
14 namely equal treatment of Serbs and Albanians. That is why I ask that you
15 admit these tabs. Tab 20.1, 20.2, 20.3, 20.4, include documents related
16 to the killing of Djordja Belic. In tab 21, with all the subtabs, not to
17 read them all out, documents related to the killing of Desimir Vasic. In
18 tab 23 for the killing of Rizah Alia. In tab 28, the killing of Nazif
19 Basota. In tab 33, the killing of Dalibor Lazarevic. In tab 36, 7, 8, 9,
20 et cetera, policemen Radunovic Mirko and Prelevic Dejan. Is this the
21 incident that you referred to yesterday?
22 A. Yes, yes. What happened in Lloxha.
23 Q. All right. This tab is related to documenting the claims that the
24 colonel made in relation to what happened in Lloxha. The attack launched
25 by the KLA from Lloxha against the police and against Pec. Then there are
1 documents related to the abduction and killing of Srdjan Perovic and
2 Milorad Rajkovic. That is tab 36.
3 And further on with the subtabs. Then tab 37 is the killing of
4 Skender Kuci, or rather, Kuci Skender. And 37.1, 37.2, 37.3 --
5 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ... notice of it. I
6 notice that, in case the accused wants to make use of it, that there seems
7 to be something in English -- oh, sorry, 36.17, I think, but frankly I'm
8 just unable really to follow what's being advanced here.
9 The Chamber may want to have in mind that even if this material
10 was already translated, the conclusion that the material shows equality of
11 treatment between one ethnic group and another is something that would
12 have to be explained by the witness either from his own knowledge or in
13 some way acting as an expert, and it would not be a conclusion that the
14 Chamber could realistically expect me to deal with in cross-examination
15 without advance notice. So that for several reasons, one piled on the
16 other, this material cannot, in my submission, help the Chamber. Whether
17 there's anything that the accused can elicit from the witness other than
18 just listing the documents to go to make his point is a matter for him.
19 I'm not going to stand in his way. But as things stand, this is just
20 unmanageable material.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: At the moment he's listing the documents that he
22 would like us to admit, and so we'll hear that and consider that at the
23 end of the evidence.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I hope that both you
25 and Mr. Kwon remember full well how many times I was in this situation
1 that masses of documents were dealt with very rapidly, that a cart would
2 be brought in with bundles and bundles of documents, and I did not raise
3 such objections. After all, the weight of this evidence in terms of what
4 Mr. Nice delivered here is non-existent. So you will have to appreciate
5 all of that.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, just continue.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, I will dwell on tab 38. Tab
8 38 has to do with the killing of two Albanians, Djuka Adem and Djuka
9 Bakir. Please look at tab 38.
10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. In tab 38, we have three tabs, actually, that have to do with the
12 killing of Djuka Adem and Djuka Bakir. First there's a criminal report.
13 In tab 38.1 an Official Note, and in 38.2 information about everything
14 that happened.
15 Was that customary procedure in terms of establishing who the
16 perpetrators were, and is that the usual treatment of victims?
17 A. Yes. This is absolutely customary procedure. The criminal report
18 shows how we learned of this event, then the measures taken afterwards are
19 described. That is to say in the early morning hours Shabani Ramo
20 reported to the duty service of SUP Pec by telephone that on the
21 right-hand side of the local road between the village of Trebevic and Pec
22 two bodies were found.
23 JUDGE BONOMY: Who were the perpetrators in this case?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We have a criminal report before us
25 and what we established. We did not find the perpetrators. They have not
1 been found. A great number of perpetrators of such criminal agents have
2 not about found. Perhaps we identified them in police terms, but we could
3 not take any action because they were inaccessible.
4 JUDGE BONOMY: In these examples that you're presenting to us, do
5 we have any specific cases, the papers for specific cases where a Serb was
6 established to be the perpetrator of the killing of an Albanian?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, I have to say that I
8 did not select these documents and bring them here. These documents --
9 JUDGE BONOMY: Could you just please answer the question I've
10 asked. Mr. Milosevic has a limited amount of time.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot say anything to you
12 off-the-cuff whether such cases are included here or not. I did not make
13 a selection of these cases.
14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Colonel, a few moments ago you said that you did not manage to
16 apprehend the perpetrators. Was it clear here that this was a terrorist
17 attack, that they were the victims of the KLA, these two Albanians?
18 A. It was absolutely clear to us, but we could not bring into custody
19 the perpetrators because they were not there.
20 Q. Do you know that these two killed persons had a brother, Xhafer,
21 who they slaughtered after KFOR came?
22 A. Well, these two were also killed on account of Xhafer Djuka.
23 That's the point.
24 This family, Djuka, they were what was termed "loyal Albanians."
25 Xhafer Djuka from that family was a high-ranking official in the
1 municipality, in the Executive Council of Kosovo and Metohija. They were
2 well known as loyal Albanians, and then the terrorists could not harm him
3 at that point in time, so they killed two members of his family. Later on
4 when they had the occasion, they killed him too.
5 Q. Xhafer Djuka was a member of the provisional executive council of
6 Kosovo and Metohija?
7 A. Well, yes, I think that was it.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Paponjak, have you ever been involved in the
9 investigation of a case where a Serb was shown, proved, to have killed an
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not. I do not recall any such
12 cases, as a matter of fact.
13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. You talk about the territory of the municipality of Pec.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Rather, the SUP of Pec.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. All right. Please, what is contained in tab 40, because there is
19 quite a bit of documentation in tab 40. 40.1, 40.2, 40.3 referring to
20 unidentified corpses at Volujacka Cuka, and that is the basis for this
21 entire case. Please take a look at tab 40. There is also scene of crime
22 investigation documents from the village of Volujak.
23 What do you know about this case contained in tab 40?
24 A. It was established that the remains of a skull had been found, and
25 some bones, at a location called Volujacka Cuka. The on-site
1 investigation team went to the crime scene and established that a skull
2 and some bones were found. This was in a pit underneath a rock, about 20
3 metres deep, and the dimensions were 15 by 10. The remains of five
4 corpses were found there. That was the assumption.
5 Just before that, this locality was under the control of the
6 so-called KLA. After the terrain was deblocked, these remains were found
7 there. The human remains were sent for expertise. The expertise was
8 carried out. The case file was not closed. After that, a state of war
9 followed. The case file has not been closed yet, and just recently
10 members of the UNMIK police continued working on that location, and I
11 managed to read in the newspapers just a few days ago that about 20
12 corpses were found there.
13 Q. All right. Is this a Serb mass grave?
14 A. All the facts on the ground indicate that, but we did not manage
15 to identify the victims. We did not manage to find out who they were by
17 There are several details that indicate that they were Serbs;
18 partly because of their clothing and partly because of some of their
19 bodily characteristics. Albanians and Muslims would be eliminated
21 Q. All right. Colonel, please, in order to keep things as brief as
22 possible, we have an entire binder here -- rather, two binders, 5 and 6,
23 containing many documents pertaining to both Serbs and Albanians. They
24 are provided as examples of treatment of criminal acts involving loss of
25 life. And all of this is contained in your information and tables; is
1 that right?
2 A. Yes. And it can be noted with certainty that the procedure
3 applied was equal, equal in each and every particular case. Absolutely
4 the same. These are procedures that cannot be side-stepped or avoided
5 even if somebody wanted to do it.
6 Q. All right. Before we move on -- I will try to deal with Dubrava
7 immediately, but before we move on to Dubrava, I would like to go back to
8 the first binder again. Tab 2.4 contains information or, rather, a brief
9 about forced deportations of Albanians, their persecution on racial
10 grounds, and taking away their personal documents, their IDs.
11 Colonel, tell me now, how was this brief compiled, this brief
12 entitled "The forced deportations of Albanians, their persecution on
13 racial grounds," et cetera?
14 A. I already explained that these documents were categorised
15 according to a uniform methodology provided by the Ministry of the
16 Interior of the Republic of Serbia. One of the chapters here marked as
17 "ch" or "dj," I'm not sure exactly.
18 Q. "Dj," the letter "dj/III."
19 A. Forced deportations of Albanians, their persecution on racial
20 grounds and taking away their IDs. The SUP of Pec was entrusted with this
22 Q. All right. The ministry asked you to provide all information
23 about forced deportations?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And then you provided the information you had?
1 A. Yes. We acted accordingly. We compiled all the information we
2 had and wrote this brief.
3 Q. And now I would like to ask you to read out what it says in this
4 brief of yours. I see that you signed this brief.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Please. So --
7 A. The title is "Brief on the forced deportations of Albanians, their
8 persecution on racial grounds, and taking away their identification
9 documents." That is the heading.
10 The information provided is not correct, and then what follows is
11 what was established. The members of the Verification Mission --
12 Q. All right. I don't know whether this was translated or not.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: We don't have a translation.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Would you want the
15 Colonel to read this out? It's only two pages.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, not all of it. Direct him to particular
17 passages which you consider to be significant.
18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Colonel, you have already explained that you had received a
20 request to provide all the information you had about the deportation of
21 Albanians, the exception of their IDs, et cetera.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So the conclusion of your secretariat from the people on the
24 ground is that these data are not correct. That is the point?
25 A. Yes. And then in this brief we go on to explain what we actually
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 knew about this, and that's it.
2 Q. It says in paragraph 3 from below: "The culmination of all this
3 is the gathering of Albanians in the centre of Pec on the 27th of March,
4 1999, around 1000 hours, where individuals appealed to people to leave the
5 area of Pec. At the gathering point, they brought their vehicles, buses,
6 trucks, tractors, and freight vehicles. Great crowds formed, and normal
7 traffic was disabled. After the rally had finished, Albanians set off in
8 different directions in vehicles and on foot. These directions were Pec,
9 Kula, Montenegro, or Pec-Decani-Djakovica, in the direction of Albania, or
10 Pec-Pristina for those who were going to Macedonia."
11 A. Well, in the area where I was located, there was no traffic
12 allowed for buses, tractors or such. In the area where I was, there were
13 no such vehicles, no such traffic. It's possible this happened in some
14 other parts of town.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, the passage that you just read, we
16 have it translated that individuals appealed to people to leave the area
17 of Pec. So I wanted to ask Mr. Paponjak, who were these individuals
18 appealing to people to leave Pec?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not know that. I do not even
20 know the Albanian language, and I don't know the people who were talking.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Of what ethnicity were they?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I suppose they were Albanians,
23 because the Albanian language was the only language spoken there.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: So it was Albanians.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Serbs spoke Serbian. Serbian
1 was the official language. And generally speaking, a certain number of
2 Serbs knew the Albanian language but mostly Serbian was used as the
3 official language. Some of us didn't know any Albanian at all. I myself
4 know about ten words.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: This report was written by you and based on what
6 you saw.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. What I saw I have told you
8 today. I did sign this report, but the report was drafted by the
9 competent team who compiled this whole documentation. I will explain to
10 you the structure.
11 This team consists of heads of departments. The head of
12 department is something like a manager. We have sections for the
13 uniformed police, for the traffic police, crime investigation police.
14 Maybe I will forget some. We have sections for information, computers,
15 analysis. The chief of the secretariat only signs the report drafted by
16 this team. So I didn't personally write this report. It is my
17 subordinated heads of departments who are professionals in particular
18 lines of work, because somebody has to sign.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can you tell us on what information would the, as
20 I understand it, the head of the department who prepared the report, have
21 based the conclusions?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He would do that on the basis of
23 interviews with various people, with various policemen, various civilians,
24 based on operative sources, using all channels that the police normally
25 have for obtaining information. The sources vary in nature. They also
1 use Official Notes, official reports, interviews, and all this is cross
2 checked, double checked with operative sources.
3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Colonel, does this mean that within your Secretariat of the
5 Interior when this report was compiled many people were engaged from all
6 sections you have in the secretariat?
7 A. Absolutely. We engaged the best professionals who were available
8 at that time.
9 Q. People who were on the spot in Pec at the time.
10 A. Yes, people who are locals and who are working in the SUP of Pec.
11 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Paponjak, can I take it that the raw materials of
12 this -- for this information is kept in Pec? For example, the interviews
13 these people had with the people at the time.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This raw material, as you termed it
15 perfectly well, is at the secretariat there. This is only a compilation,
16 a summary of all this information.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I continue, Mr. Kwon?
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Can I point out to you that the raw materials
19 of this kind is much more important than the one you presented, which is
20 related to 1998 or something like that, because this is a direct answer to
21 your charges of the indictment.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In my mind, this is also material
23 from the ground because it comes from official bodies reporting from the
24 ground on the ongoing events.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. You may continue, Mr. Milosevic.
1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Here on page 2 of this brief, it says: "Albanians moved in
3 whichever direction they wanted, and the police did not restrict their
4 movement. The police treated them professionally and correctly."
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. This group who filed the report noted this, and you confirmed it.
7 A. Yes, absolutely.
8 Q. The next paragraph is very short, only two lines. It says: "It
9 is typical that Albanians departed even from rural areas which the police
10 had not entered for a long time before." I repeat: "It is typical that
11 Albanians left even rural areas which the police had not entered for a
12 long time before."
13 The coverage of the territory by the police was only 10 to 15 per
15 A. Correct. This whole area was surrounded for the most part by the
16 KLA. Major settlements for the most part. They were under the absolute
17 control of the KLA.
18 Q. How can you then explain that Albanians left even the villages
19 which the police had not entered for a long time? They hadn't even shown
20 their faces there for a while. Why did these people go to Macedonia?
21 A. It may seem illogical to you, but it's perfectly clear to those of
22 us who were there. We all felt safer with them around rather than with
23 them gone. If they go, then we remain as a clear target. If a bomb
24 falls, we will be the only ones to be hit. So we actually wanted them to
1 Q. You say in this brief that the police did not restrict their
2 movement, that the police treated them professionally.
3 A. Well, we couldn't prevent them from going, but we didn't really
4 want them to go because if they leave, the territory would remain not only
5 ethnically pure, it would be professionally pure, because only the police
6 and the army would remain as a clear target. However, we couldn't
7 restrict their movement, and we couldn't prevent them from leaving because
8 we had no right. We would be exposing them to danger and death if we had.
9 Q. Then it goes on to say that: "In places where Albanians were
10 grouped, the police took measures of security to prevent crimes by
11 individuals or criminal groups, Banjica, Prekale, Djurakovac, Istok
12 municipality; and Glodjane, Pec municipality.
13 A. We did whatever we could to help them. We provided food and even
14 water in those areas where we had some control. I saw Banjica and
15 Djurakovac with my own eyes and I haven't been to Glodjane, I must say.
16 Q. It says here in paragraph 6 from the top: "Catholic Albanians did
17 not leave the territory. Instead, they remained where they were, in
18 Glodjane, Pec municipality; Djurakovac, Kos, Drenje, Istok municipality;
19 Zlokucane, Renovac, Leskovac, Budisavci and Stup, Klina municipality.
20 Their priests contacted with the police and required greater police
21 presence or more frequent police presence in areas populated by Catholics
22 in order to prevent the entry of terrorists into the village."
23 A. Catholic Albanians, and they were the majority population in these
24 areas, in these villages, did not support the so-called KLA in the
25 previous years. There were very few Catholic Albanians who joined the
1 KLA. And in the previous period, such as 1998, they physically abused and
2 exerted pressure on Catholic Albanians for these reasons. We have
3 supporting documentation for all of this. We have their statements and
4 reports. Not only from Catholic Albanians but also from Muslim Albanians.
5 Now, at this point, these people were still remaining in their
6 villages. They demanded police protection from the terrorists because
7 now, in the state of war, they could only expect greater torture, and the
8 police did provide them with this protection, and so did the army when the
9 army showed up later.
10 I talked to some people who were there, who had come from Cacak,
11 and they told me that the Catholics, the Catholic Albanians, had welcomed
12 them very cordially because they saw them as allies. And you can find any
13 number of such people in the former Yugoslavia.
14 Q. Very well, Colonel. In paragraph 4 from below, it says: "In its
15 activities, the police treated all citizens equally. It did not instigate
16 Albanian departures, nor did it carry out any maltreatment or abuse. The
17 police did not search houses, flats, or other premises to force Albanians
18 to leave their homes. It is true that in the preceding period, with a
19 view to suppressing crime, the police acted in a law-abiding way and
20 searched houses and premises of certain criminals regardless of their
21 ethnicity with a view to detecting criminals and incriminating objects.
22 The police did not, however, undertake such activities for at least 30
23 days prior to the departure of Albanians from the area," which implies
24 that the cause of their departure is not the action of the police.
25 A. Correct.
1 Q. Because it says here precisely that for at least 30 days --
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... combining
3 comment and question. It's not an acceptable mode of proceeding. What is
4 the question?
5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Very well, Colonel. Did the police wish the Albanians to leave
7 that area or not?
8 A. No. Furthermore, the figure quoted here is 30 days. In actual
9 fact, we hadn't gone anywhere near their homes for perhaps two or three
10 months prior, and I'll explain the reasons.
11 After the arrival of the Verification Mission, we were required to
12 give advance notice to the Verification Mission of every action we
13 intended to take, and we did so through interpreters. We were stricken by
14 the fact that sometimes we would go into action, go to a house where we
15 knew we had good chances of finding a perpetrator or a weapon, and we
16 would find nothing. And we realised that in some way our information had
17 leaked to the perpetrator, who had enough time to run. So we did not have
18 any success in such cases, because the perpetrators obviously had received
19 some signals. I'm not saying that the verifiers notified the targets of
20 our actions, but there were many other peoples involved, such as
21 interpreters, who were, for the most part, Albanians.
22 Therefore, we gave up this sort of action, and we only proceeded
23 in cases where we received immediate reports of something that had just
25 Furthermore, we had absolutely no reason to want them to leave.
1 The police, as well as the army, wanted them to stay because it was in our
2 own interest. One of the basic --
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's time for the break. We'll take a break now
4 for 20 minutes.
5 --- Recess taken at 12.18 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 12.44 p.m.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Robinson.
9 Q. Just to complete the tab we were dealing with, 2.4. At the end of
10 the information or the report, it says, with respect to what you were
11 saying a moment ago, and I'm quoting the last paragraph on the penultimate
12 page: "It is quite certain that the police and most of the Serb citizens
13 did not wish the Albanians to leave the territory. With their departure,
14 many private firms were closed, the turnover of goods was decreased, and
15 the threat of bombing was greater. In all this, the staffs and the MUP
16 was informed on time and it was stated that legal measures exclusively
17 should be resorted to to secure and protect the people and their
19 So when it says that it was ordered, what does that mean? The
20 orders were received by the MUP and the headquarters; is that right?
21 A. Yes. Dispatches were sent to us and they were distributed later
22 on and were sent to all the persons involved towards the different
23 departments and then the departments would send them on. So these orders
24 came from the ministry down to the MUP and the headquarters, and all the
25 employees were well-versed in the procedure which was in fact standard
2 Q. Thank you, Colonel. Now, do you have an idea, since this refers
3 to the mass departure of Albanians from Kosovo and Metohija, from the
4 beginning of the bombing, do you have any idea and information about how
5 many Serbs left your area, left the area which was your area of
6 responsibility, Central Serbia and into Montenegro or further afield to
7 third countries?
8 A. I don't have any precise information about that or indeed for
9 Albanians after either, but a large number of Serbs also left. The women
10 and children left, and the elderly left, too, and the Serbs, military-able
11 men, stayed in the territory to protect Kosovo and Metohija and protect
12 their own property as well, and that should the need arise, to prevent the
13 entry of terrorists and terrorists storming their houses and exerting
14 violence. And if there were any NATO force aggression on land, to deal
15 with that too.
16 Q. Thank you. Now, let's dwell for a moment on this -- on the same
17 kind of information that you compiled for Albanians. You said that you
18 compiled reports, and that is found in tab 3, on crimes against Serbs and
19 Montenegrins, that a similar report or the same kind of report was
21 A. Yes. That was drafted at a later period. The crimes against
22 Serbs were not incorporated in the first stage. We didn't deal with that.
23 But later on, we were asked to compile that kind of information, that is
24 to say crimes against Serbs, where the Serbs were the injured party, and
25 so we proceeded to compile information of that kind in the second stage of
1 our work.
2 Q. All right. Now, could you explain this to us: You were asked to
3 compile a report on damages against Albanians, crimes against Albanians
4 when? When was that? When were you asked to do that?
5 A. Well, I don't know when that was exactly but it was during the
6 first stage, in the first phase, in related incidents resulting in death
7 and then crimes against Albanians, to the detriment of Albanians, that is,
8 and all the rest of it. Then once we completed that job, then we were
9 asked to look at crimes against Serbs. And that can be clearly seen by
10 the fact that this chapter is B asterisk, so that was added subsequently
11 in the markings.
12 Q. Right. So you gave priority to crimes against Albanians, and when
13 you completed that task, you looked at crimes against Serbs.
14 A. Yes, that's right.
15 Q. Let's take a look at tab 3.1, now, please. I'm not going to dwell
16 on at that tab for too long. It gives us a review of the registered
17 crimes against Serbs, the number of crimes filed and registered. The
18 total number is 403. Where the perpetrators were known, it was 26 of
19 those cases, and perpetrators unknown in 377 cases. And here the ratio
20 between known and unknown perpetrators, when we come to crimes against
21 Serbs, is, as I can see, less favourable than in the case of Albanians.
22 A. Yes, that's correct, because the perpetrators were inaccessible to
23 us for the most part and we weren't able to solve the case or throw enough
24 light on the cases. And the structure of the crimes shows you what they
25 were about later on and why, what happened. So 320 crimes pursuant to
1 Articles 125 of the Criminal Code of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia,
2 which is terrorism. Those acts were committed, and terrorists don't act
3 publicly and openly, nor are they accessible to us, especially not to us
4 in Kosovo and Metohija at that time because they were organised in units
5 and they were just out of reach.
6 Now, of the 403 crimes committed, 320 were terrorist crimes,
7 crimes of terrorism, and all the rest, the other crimes, were in 83 cases.
8 Q. All right. So this is to be found in tab 3. Now, tab 4 is the
9 list of crimes against the Roma. Was that compiled and drafted along the
10 same lines, the same methodology used there?
11 A. Yes, but that was devised even later. That report was compiled
12 much later.
13 Q. And there, too, we have a very bad ratio between known and unknown
14 perpetrators. That is to say there were many more unknown perpetrators.
15 Out of 55 crimes, in 48 of the cases the crimes were crimes of terrorism;
16 is that right?
17 A. Yes. The Roma didn't even come to report crimes like that
18 immediately after the crimes had been committed, but later on we learnt
19 about these crimes, so we -- our information about that came subsequently,
20 post festum, after quite some time had gone by; several months or even
21 several years in some cases.
22 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Paponjak, in these cases, or the statistics
23 you've given us, rather, do they cover all crimes committed in the area
24 either against Serbs in tab 2 or against Roma -- sorry, Serbs in tab 3, is
25 it, and against Roma in tab 4? It's all crimes?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All crimes are included for which we
2 gained information either by the fact that the injured person came to
3 report them or in the line of duty or from anonymous callers or other
4 sources, operative links or whatever.
5 JUDGE BONOMY: And they are not confined to crimes allegedly
6 committed by Albanians.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.
8 JUDGE BONOMY: So we will see in there, will we, examples of Serbs
9 being found to be the perpetrators of these crimes, either against Serbs
10 or against Roma?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely correct.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We even have such examples on the
14 list here. We even have rapes perpetrated by policemen, and that is
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. With the crimes you deal with here against Serbs and Montenegrins,
19 did you provide or have you provided -- I can't find it. All we have here
20 is -- well, let me see.
21 In the report in tab 3 relating to crimes of Serbs and
22 Montenegrins or, rather, against Serbs and Montenegrins, who the
23 perpetrators were ethnically speaking, the ethnic structure of the
25 A. Yes, and you'll find that on page 2 of the report.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Can you find it for us, please, and quote, quote us some examples.
2 A. At the beginning of the first page it says 476 perpetrators of
3 crimes were uncovered. In Pec 75, in Istok 60, and in Klina, 341. The
4 largest number of perpetrators uncovered were the members of the so-called
5 KLA, 442 of them, who had committed crimes under Article 125 of the
6 Criminal Code of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. This figure of 442
7 relates to the perpetrators, not the number of crimes. And the other
8 perpetrators were civilians, 32 of those, and one member of the active or
9 reserve police force. And the ethnic break-up is the following: 454
10 Albanians and 22 were Serbs and Montenegrins.
11 MR. NICE: May be my oversight but I'm not following this. I'm
12 not sure --
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Of 3, tab 3.
15 MR. NICE: Thank you. Oh, yes, I've found it.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the period from the 20th of June,
17 1999, to the 1st of June, 2001, only 99 criminal acts were registered, and
18 it is certain that that wasn't the final number because we do not have
19 knowledge of all crimes perpetrated. By simple comparison without any
20 detailed analysis, we arrive at very interesting conclusions on the degree
21 of jeopardy that national communities were under, or ethnic communities
22 were under. Of the 1.282 [as interpreted] crimes committed in the region
23 of the SUP of Pec - and I'll skip the figures how many in Pec, how many in
24 Klina - of the 1.289 crimes committed in the Pec area, 303 were committed
25 against Albanians. That comes under tab B. 403 were committed against
1 Serbs and Montenegrins; and as to the other crimes, they were crimes
2 against property, either state owned, socially owned, or against those
3 owned by other ethnic groups. With respect to the number of inhabitants,
4 the Albanian community figure in around 85 per cent of the cases, and only
5 23 per cent of those are crimes committed.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That will do, thank you.
7 But I don't think I have to emphasise, Mr. Robinson, that I would
8 like to have these exhibits admitted into evidence. They have been done
9 very systematically, and each of these documents contains a list of the
10 crimes committed with the names of the perpetrators and are therefore
11 official documents which have been signed and stamped.
12 JUDGE BONOMY: It's a pity that that question wasn't actually
13 answered. The question was the ethnic make-up or composition of the
14 perpetrators. I don't think you dealt with that at all.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I thought that the question had been
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 476 perpetrators were uncovered, of
18 crimes. That is stated at the top of the page, first paragraph. 75 in
19 Pec, 60 in Istok, and Klina, 341. The largest number of criminal
20 perpetrators were belonging -- belonged to the KLA, 424, who had committed
21 crimes under Article 125 of the Criminal Code of Yugoslavia, and the other
22 perpetrators were civilians, 32 of those, and one member of the active or
23 reserve police force. And the ethnic structure was as follows --
24 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues]... all right.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The ethnic structure was as follows:
1 454 were Albanians, and 22 were Serbs and Montenegrins.
2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.
3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Thank you, Colonel. Now, do you have similar information for
5 crimes against the Roma?
6 A. Yes, I do.
7 Q. Who were the perpetrators and the ethnic structure of them?
8 A. There were even less Serbs and Montenegrins in crimes against
9 Roma. For the most part the perpetrators were Albanians.
10 Q. And following the same methodology, you compiled a document that
11 is found in tab 5, a list of terrorist acts against the police force,
12 members of the police. And a list is provided there of all the crimes
13 committed where the subject of attack were policemen.
14 A. Yes, that's right. But let me explain that that wasn't done
15 pursuant to orders from MUP. That was done pursuant to my own orders, at
16 my request, because I was interested in having all the attacks against the
17 police compiled in one document, in one place. And I don't think that
18 you'll find information like that in other secretariats. If the chief of
19 SUP wasn't interested in things like that, then you won't find them there.
20 Q. All right. Now, information about all the previous tabs must
21 exist in other SUP archives too.
22 A. Yes. And in the Ministry of the Interior, a copy of all these
23 files and cases and documents, a complete dossier, a complete file for
24 Kosovo and Metohija, a general one exists at the ministry which is a
25 collection of all the files of the individual Secretariats of the Interior
1 in Kosovo and Metohija, and in each secretariat you will have the files
2 for that particular area.
3 Q. Thank you, Colonel. Now, in tab 6, you provided with us a
4 document which relates to abducted persons and missing persons as of the
5 1st of January, 1998.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And then you have 6.1, 2, 3, 4, 5. So it's very comprehensive.
8 Could you tell us, please, just briefly, about these documents
9 relating to abducted and missing persons.
10 A. This area of our work and expertise will be something that will
11 have -- will be ongoing for a long time to come, because there are many
12 people who have been listed as missing, Serbs and Albanians alike, whose
13 fate we don't know about. The Ministry of the Interior or, rather, at the
14 level of the federal organs, it's difficult for me to keep track of all
15 the names of the different states and communities, the community of Serbia
16 and Montenegro, there there's a commission set up for persons missing, and
17 there's a commission like that in Kosovo and Metohija. Now we have
18 started to pool our efforts in that respect and work together. And all
19 the events that took place in 1998 and 1999, a lot of people went missing
20 of all ethnic groups; both Serbs, Montenegrins, Albanians, Roma, et
22 The largest number of abductions, if not all of the abductions,
23 are a form of terrorist activity on the part of the Albanian extremists,
24 and their goal was to instil fear and insecurity in the population, to
25 create a mood in which nobody could see their future in Kosovo and
1 Metohija. Also, their movements were limited. Morale was low, to lower
2 the morale of the citizens and the police. And they wanted many Albanians
3 to join the KLA and to set aside resources to fund the KLA.
4 MR. NICE: The witness is now giving the most general conclusions.
5 We've already established that their reports are based on the work of
6 others, not on his own work. It may be helpful to know that, rather than
7 having to return to all these points in cross-examination, that when he
8 says things like this he's speaking from his own experience, and if so
9 what, or alternatively, on the basis of others. I can't see it obviously
10 in the reports.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm minded to say, Mr. Nice --
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ...
14 cross-examination, but I'll ask the witness: The information you just
15 gave, is that based on your own knowledge or did you gather that from
16 other sources?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Part of this comes from my own
18 knowledge, and another part was compiled on the basis of documents
19 analysed, such as the report on the missing persons. Under this there are
20 specific case files. Part of this is the result of the work of the
21 working group. I was part of that working group, and certainly I had a
22 contribution to the work of the working group as well as other team
23 members who provided their own contributions. And included is the
24 material also from specific case files. This report does not reflect the
25 personal position of any particular individual. It is the result of work
1 of the working group, consisting of professionals who had specific case
2 files to work with.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: You have said, Mr. Paponjak, that the goal of the
4 KLA, the extremists, was to instil fear and insecurity, but I had gathered
5 that their main goal was independence.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is the ultimate goal. But the
7 objective of abductions of which I have just spoken, they worked along
8 many lines, but I was just trying to explain why they abducted people.
9 If you have an area from which both Serbs and Albanians and Roma
10 and others are disappearing, vanishing into thin air and nobody knows what
11 happened to them, a general feeling of insecurity is created. People do
12 not dare to leave their homes. For instance, they announce that after
13 1400 hours, children coming from school will be abducted. So people don't
14 send children to school and they lock themselves up in their homes. This
15 is the general atmosphere of fear created.
16 And after that, precisely for this reason, many Serbs and many
17 Albanians left Kosovo altogether. I know this because even my own
18 policemen, my own subordinates, as far as back as 1998, asked me for leave
19 in order to take their families away. I don't know what else I can tell
20 you about this.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] At the very beginning, we
24 established that this witness is testifying both on the basis of his
25 direct knowledge and on the basis of facts and documents that were
1 available to him ex officio in the position in which he occupied. So if
2 we have before us the chief of the Secretariat of the Interior, which
3 covers several municipalities, it is his duty to have information coming
4 from the entire area. He is in his job receiving reports, receiving
5 information, and in certain instances he was personally present when
6 certain incidents took place, such as the day when masses of citizens
7 flooded the centre of Pec. But he is also presenting to you the work
8 product of teams of policemen who are working under his leadership.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know in which other way I
11 could present this evidence. He, as the leader of this team and direct
12 participant in the work, is testifying to the work product.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think Mr. Nice's concern was to ascertain how
14 he gathered that specific piece of information, and he has answered, yes.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.
16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. This part about abductions we have clarified enough, I hope. In
18 tab 7, you have information about events related to and the consequences
19 of NATO bombing in the territory of SUP Pec from the 23rd of March to the
20 10th of June, 1999.
21 This document enumerates all these incidents. Does it cover all
22 the incidents, in fact?
23 A. Yes. Correct. This information was compiled according to the
24 same methodology. It contains the textual part as well as tables and a
25 list of all the incidents that occurred as a result of NATO bombing on the
1 territory of our secretariat.
2 In the area of the Secretariat of the Interior of Pec, the NATO
3 alliance made a total of 97 airstrikes; 47 in Pec, 31 in Klina, and 19 in
4 Istok. These airstrikes were made at different hours, with a surprise
5 effect; 74 in daytime, 23 in night-time. All of these incidents caused
6 deaths, casualties, created fear and concern among the citizens for their
7 own lives and property, mass departure of all the citizens, including
8 Albanians, and restricted the movements of all citizens.
9 Targets of bombing: 36 military --
10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please say from what he's
11 reading, give us a reference.
12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. From the data you are reading, we see that there were more
14 civilian targets that were bombed than military targets.
15 A. Correct.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: From what are you reading? Is it a document
17 which we have or another? Is it tab 7? Tab 7.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is tab 7.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Brief on incidents related to and
20 consequences of NATO bombing on the territory of the secretariat of Pec."
21 It is marked J/III. It is now on the ELMO as well.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Mr. Milosevic.
23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Colonel --
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, Mr. Robinson, bear in mind
1 that I want this entire tab exhibited, obviously because we have no time
2 to go into all the details. I heard when the witness mentioned the number
3 of airstrikes, and I just asked him whether there were more civilian or
4 military police targets, and the answer was that there were more civilian
5 targets hit.
6 I therefore submit the request that this tab be exhibited, among
7 others, because it also relates to official documents.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I'm becoming concerned now about
9 the length of your examination-in-chief. You had scheduled this witness
10 for five hours, but we have gone well beyond that. This is the end of the
11 second day. You will conclude -- you will conclude --
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Quite correct.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- your examination-in-chief today.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't think so. I am also
15 concerned that it's taking long, but unfortunately there is a lot of
16 material. However, this material could be the subject of testimony of 20
17 or 30 witnesses, so by dealing with it in this way, I'm actually saving
18 time, especially when it comes to official documents that provide direct
19 insight into the facts testified to by this witness.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... conducted it
21 in that way. Nonetheless, let's move on.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, Mr. Robinson.
23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Colonel, in tab 8, we have information about airstrikes by the
25 NATO on the correctional centre of Dubrava in Istok. This is a brief on
1 the airstrikes effected on the 19th, 21st, and 24th of May, 1999. And the
2 title goes on to say, "... causing death and great material damage." This
3 is tab number 8, and I kindly request that we take just a brief look at
5 So, Colonel, where exactly is this correctional centre?
6 A. The Dubrava correctional centre is in the village of Dubrava, east
7 of Istok, three or four kilometres away.
8 Q. We will just deal with a few brief questions. How many prisoners
9 were there in May 1999?
10 A. The precise figure is 1.004.
11 Q. What type of prisoners were there?
12 A. Persons who were arrested, detained, charged, or convicted for the
13 most grievous crimes committed in that period; terrorism, association for
14 the purpose of engaging in hostile activity, murders, and other grave
16 Q. Well, where were the prisoners accommodated?
17 A. In pavilions, the so-called residential pavilions, within the
18 perimeter of the detention centre, the correctional centre, which is
19 fenced in by a wall.
20 Q. In other words, just like a prison.
21 A. It has an open part and a closed-in part, but all the prisoners
22 were in the fenced-in part.
23 Q. Very well. Did this correctional centre have security provided by
24 the MUP, by policemen?
25 A. Policemen did not guard this correctional centre because the
1 security and the enforcement of prison sentences is in the competence of
2 the Ministry of Justice. However, the Ministry of the Interior kept the
3 correctional centre under close attention in view of the fact that it
4 contained a lot of persons who were of great interest to us, from the
5 security point of view, as well as a great number of terrorists. And we
6 thought that in the circumstances of the NATO aggression and the bombing,
7 they might try to break out and release their own people, or the
8 terrorists might attack in order to release their own people. So we
9 conducted surveillance to see if there were any movements of terrorists
10 toward the prison to release their own members.
11 Q. I understand that, but my question was actually geared to find out
12 whether the police were guarding the prisoners or did the prison have its
13 own security guards who were under -- who were in the employment of the
14 Ministry of Justice?
15 A. The latter.
16 Q. And you did not have access to the inside of the prison?
17 A. No, we didn't.
18 Q. Do you have any direct knowledge about the events that happened at
19 the Dubrava prison from the 19th to the 24th of May? Do you have direct
20 knowledge? That's my question.
21 A. I have direct, firsthand knowledge, because in certain instances
22 during those days I was on the spot at the correctional centre of Dubrava.
23 For instance, on the 19th of May.
24 Q. When did NATO make its first airstrike on the Dubrava prison?
25 A. The 19th of May.
1 Q. You mean the day when you were there. Did you arrive just after
2 the airstrike or were you there during the airstrike?
3 A. I arrived as soon as I found out about the airstrike, together
4 with some other policemen. We came in order to take all the steps that it
5 was our duty to take, and we proceeded accordingly.
6 Q. That is consistent with what you told us earlier about police
7 procedure in case of airstrike; you would immediately go on the site, and
8 you did the same in this case?
9 A. We did.
10 Q. How many persons were killed on that first occasion, during the
11 first airstrike on the 19th of May?
12 A. Three convicts. Three convicts whom we identified; Abdulah
13 Tahiri --
14 Q. Don't read any names now. We won't go into detail. On that
15 occasion you identified three casualties. Is it possible that there were
16 more casualties on that first day?
17 A. It was not impossible to establish the exact number that first
19 Q. How many persons were wounded that day that you established?
20 A. Five; two guards and three convicts, three inmates.
21 Q. Were they given medical assistance?
22 A. They were first taken to the medical centre in Istok, and after
23 that, to the hospital in Pec.
24 Q. We are now talking only about the 19th of May.
25 A. Yes, between 1400 and 1500 hours on the 19th of May.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Was there any on-site investigation then?
2 A. Yes. It was done that day.
3 Q. Who did the on-site investigation, and who attended it?
4 A. Since this event was immediately notified to all the competent
5 authorities, the investigating judge from Pec failed to come, but the
6 investigating judge from the district court in Pec came and the president
7 of the district court came.
8 Q. Was there any video and audio recording?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Who did that?
11 A. Stills and video recordings were made by scene-of-crime officers
12 of the police section of the SUP Pec.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender a recording
14 from tab 50. That is only the part that refers to the 19th of May. I
15 hope that Professor Rakic has made all the arrangements for this recording
16 to be played, and after that I would like the witness to comment. After
17 that commentary, we will see recordings from the 21st of May and another
18 clip from the 24th of May.
19 MR. NICE: Unless the accused has made arrangements to reduce the
20 time that these videos take, I think they're about two hours altogether.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is that so, Mr. Milosevic? Is the length of this
22 video two hours?
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The total length is 1 hour, 50
24 minutes, Mr. Robinson, but I wished to ask them to be played in fast
25 forward, because that is a possibility. Plus, we have a transcript which
1 has been provided to the interpreters --
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is this a video of?
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This video, as the witness just
4 explained, is part of the official documentation from the on-site
5 investigation. Would you please bear in mind here that Mr. Nice had
6 brought several witnesses speaking to the same event, the event in
7 Dubrava, and spoke about it completely inaccurately. This video recording
8 could replace many witnesses, and I hope you understand it relates to a
9 specific charge in the indictment, that is para 66(k).
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I know 66(k), but I don't understand why I
11 have to suffer a video of one hour.
12 I'll consult with my colleagues.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just before you confer, please. I
14 also had a problem of time. This recording, when fast forwarded, shows
15 quite enough, although without sound. And when it's fast forwarded, you
16 can see it all within 12 minutes, and you can see the ruins, the debris,
17 people buried under the debris, their hands and feet sticking out. You
18 can see the effect of the bombing, the casualties, people killed. And the
19 recording, once it becomes an exhibit, is available to anybody who wants
20 to see it later. It is, however, a recording made directly on the spot
21 during the on-site investigation. It is not a photo montage. That is its
22 precise value.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ...
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, the videotape will establish,
25 in addition to the testimony of this witness, and I hope the testimony of
1 other witnesses, too, that what it says here in this charge, in paragraph
2 (k), is incorrect, because, Mr. Robinson, what has been written here is
3 this, that hundreds of prisoners were taken out and executed by some sort
4 of forces who were there, and you will be able to see from the documents
5 and the facts that there was large-scale bombing, that people were killed
6 as a result of the bombing, and that what it says, therefore, in the
7 indictment is absurd, is an absurdity.
8 And I would just like to ask you to bear in mind one thing: A
9 moment ago the witness said that there were 1.000 prisoners. There is
10 material evidence showing that over 750 were evacuated into another
11 prison, that several dozen were hospitalised who were wounded, that almost
12 a hundred were killed. Now, imagine, Mr. Robinson, somebody executing a
13 thousand prisoners and then taking the wounded and injured to the hospital
14 and 80 per cent sent to other prisons, et cetera, et cetera.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. The question which I asked which is
16 not in the transcript was what will be established by the video that is
17 not otherwise established, and it is to that that Mr. Milosevic replied.
18 I'll consult with my colleagues.
19 JUDGE KWON: If you could assist us further. The indictment
20 against you alleges that killing happened on 22nd and 23rd, but this video
21 refers to 19th. So what can be established by this video in relation to
22 the indictment charges?
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, what can be established is
24 this: That the allegations in the indictment are not correct, because
25 from the videotape you can see that there was bombing on the 19th and that
1 there were dead already on the 19th, and there you have a videotape which
2 relates to the 21st of May, which was filmed on 21st of May where you can
3 see likewise the consequences. And then there's another tape made on the
4 24th of May, and the tape is always -- you always film after the bombing.
5 The bombing went on from the 19th, I think, to the 24th or 25th, for
6 several days, successive days.
7 JUDGE KWON: But either video does not say anything whether there
8 was a killing on 22nd and 23rd. Is it right?
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, of the course it speaks about
10 killings, we can see that the killings resulted as the NATO bombing of the
11 prison whereas something quite different, quite absurd, is being alleged
12 here in the indictment.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Fast forward, 12 minutes, so
15 we'll finish just before the break.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. But with the proviso
17 that we don't see all 12 minutes at once, that we can take a look at the
18 19th of May, first and have the witness tell us something about that,
19 because he was there on that day, immediately after the attack. He left
20 after it. And then we can take a look at the 21st of May and the third
21 part afterwards, the 24th of May one.
22 So the filming always take place after the event. There is an
23 investigation, and then the tape, the footage, is part of the
24 investigative process and documents.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, yes.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Let's have the tape
3 played, please.
4 [Videotape played]
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You can clearly see the date there,
6 it is 16.03, 19.5.1999. 16.03 is the time. That's on the 19th.
7 You can see enormous holes, apertures on the roofs of buildings,
8 the rubble, the debris. All the windows were blasted.
9 There's smoke coming out of the building and the one opposite.
10 All that is the 19th.
11 You can see the traces of shrapnel, of bombs that exploded in
12 front. That's quite obvious too.
13 And these are the prison premises. You can see the bars. The
14 pavilions with the prisoners were directly hit.
15 The staircase and stairwell is destroyed.
16 That is footage of the unfortunate people.
17 In this indictment, the man who can be seen here was allegedly
18 executed by the police.
19 He's missing half his head. You can see the knee protruding of
20 one of the other people buried under the rubble. There's part of an arm
21 here, or hand, of one of the other unfortunate people.
22 You can see the dormitories.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With this fast forward we seem to be
24 losing quite a lot of the important elements. We don't have the volume,
25 sound, and what we have been talking about, the fleeing of the prisoners
1 from the premises and the way in which they were doing this.
2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Yes. You can see that they tried to break down the door in their
4 panic during the bombing.
5 A. That's right. And as I know this videotape, the soundtrack says
6 how they tried to do this, and the crime technicians tried to show that.
7 They used crowbars.
8 Q. You can see the crowbars here, the levers and the forced door.
9 A. I hope that at least that portion has been translated.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Corpses once again.
11 Take a look at this. This person is missing a head.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Faster forward. There is nothing gained from
13 showing us these ghastly pictures.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is part of a bomb. You can see
15 the serial number even here.
16 MR. NICE: The Chamber will probably recall and might be assisted
17 to be reminded that of course there is no challenge to the fact that there
18 was NATO bombing both on the 19th and the 21st of May, and I can provide
19 details of the number of sorties and the number of bombs, if asked.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
21 JUDGE KWON: The number of casualties would be different.
22 MR. NICE: Yes. That's a matter of evidence, because after all --
23 well, it's all a matter of evidence, but information as to the number of
24 -- the dates and number of sorties and number of bombs comes from NATO and
25 it's not -- it's still a matter of evidence but it's somewhat clearer than
1 -- clear evidence, if you want it.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, gentlemen, would you
3 please bear in mind the fact that in attachment J, Schedule J, as it says
4 in paragraph (k), you have a list of those allegedly executed, and there
5 are 26 on that list. Our organs established over 90 killed in the bombing
6 in Istok.
7 And we're now going to follow that up.
8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Colonel, can you just give us your brief comments of the footage
10 we've just seen.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, Mr. Milosevic. There are several matters.
12 One is a question -- the first one is a question of timing, because we
13 have to adjourn now. And when we resume, I'd like to have specific
14 questions put to the witness rather than to ask him to comment generally.
15 Specific questions about the matters that are at issue.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: We have another matter scheduled for hearing
18 tomorrow morning starting at 9.00, but the parties are to be ready --
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That was yesterday.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- the parties are to be here in the event that we
21 are able to start this case at 10.00. So the parties should be here in
22 readiness to recommence the hearing at 10.00. There is no certainty that
23 this will take place, but the parties are to be here and to stand in
25 We are adjourned until tomorrow.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson. Mr. Robinson.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is it certain that we won't begin
4 before 10.00? Is that a certainty?
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: That may not be -- that may not be a certainty.
6 But you don't need to be here until 10.00.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's all I wanted to know. Thank
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
10 1.46 p.m. sine die.