Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 39040

1 Thursday, 5 May 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, yesterday you had just about

7 concluded examining the witness on the allegations arising out of

8 paragraph 66 -- 63(e), and I was suggesting that you might conclude with

9 that, but you had other issues, you said, to raise. Can you tell me the

10 areas that are left to be covered by your examination-in-chief?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I'll tell you. Just a moment.

12 I want to complete this alleged point (e) or para (e), which allegedly

13 speaks of expulsions, or alleged expulsions, and then -- and deportation,

14 and just briefly the conduct of the police with respect to the attacks and

15 the subordination of the police and the army from the experience of the

16 colonel in Pec, and then what the police undertook to prevent cases

17 resulting in death contained in the tables here, and just one question on

18 cooperation with KFOR and UNMIK, and then I would like to go over some

19 numerical facts and figures contained in the tabs, and then I have to

20 dwell on another point. I'll tell you what it is straight away. Let me

21 see. 66(k), in fact. Since the witness was on the spot in the area and

22 it is the Dubrava prison, we have a tape that I would like to play, and it

23 is part of the investigation, the investigating material.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: That seems to be the most substantive outstanding

25 area for you to continue your examination. Perhaps you should concentrate

Page 39041

1 on that.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will certainly focus on that,

3 Mr. Robinson, however, I did wish to clarify all these other aspects.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, let's begin.


6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 Examined by Mr. Milosevic [Continued]

8 Q. Colonel, you were describing yesterday what the centre of Pec

9 looked like and the mass of people that had gathered there. You were

10 there on the spot, were you not?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Tell me, please, how were you able to move around that mass of

13 people? What were you wearing? What arms did you have?

14 A. Well, throughout the time, I was armed with just a pistol. I had

15 my belt, my pistol, and the police uniform with designation of rank.

16 Q. So that means you were wearing your regular police uniform and the

17 pistol on the belt is part of that, on your halter. Did you have any

18 other kind of weapons?

19 A. No. I never carried anything like that.

20 Q. Were you escorted by a security detail from the police with some

21 other weapons?

22 A. No, I was alone.

23 Q. So you were moving through this mass of people alone?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Was there any police cordon? You said there were very few

Page 39042

1 policemen there, so indirectly perhaps we can conclude that there was a

2 police cordon somewhere. Was there one anywhere?

3 A. No. The people were on the pavement and on the square, in the

4 square, and there was free passage along the road, but nobody of the --

5 the police didn't assure that passage. There was just this narrow passage

6 through which I could pass by in my car and reach the municipality

7 building on the square.

8 Q. Very well. So you've described that to us. None of the

9 authorities addressed the people. The people themselves spoke and said

10 things over the megaphone?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And when did the citizens who had gathered on the square leave the

13 square?

14 A. I can't really say they left the square. I can say that they

15 would leave and come. There was a lot of coming and going. Some would

16 leave, others would come in, and this wasn't something that took place in

17 the space of an hour or two, it took several days.

18 Q. So you mean people were coming and going for several days?

19 A. Yes, precisely.

20 Q. And you said you saw buses but you said you didn't see any trucks;

21 is that right?

22 A. No, I didn't see buses, but I -- well, I said I saw buses

23 transporting people. I saw trucks, too, but I didn't see them

24 transporting any people, although I didn't actually see what was under the

25 awning, the tarpaulin.

Page 39043

1 Q. So tell me now, please, in point (e) it says in front of Prizren

2 the Kosovo Albanians were forced to leave the buses, et cetera, et cetera.

3 Now, did the buses regularly run between Pec and Prizren?

4 Q. There were a number of bus lines, regular lines, for example, ran

5 from Djakovica-Pec, Belgrade-Pec, Prizren-Pec, et cetera.

6 Q. So that's what I wanted to establish. The Pec-Prizren line, for

7 instance, did it run to Prizren or did it run to the Albanian border?

8 A. I don't know. I can't really say. I don't know what was going on

9 in the Prizren area. All I can tell you about is what was going in my own

10 area.

11 Q. Just tell me this now, please: What directions did the citizens

12 leaving the area take? Where did they go?

13 A. They went in all directions. They went off in all directions;

14 towards Prizren, through Decani and Djakovica and towards Pristina,

15 towards Klina and towards Mitrovica, towards Istok, and towards Montenegro

16 across Kula.

17 Q. So those were the four basic directions that you have to go to

18 leave town, towards the north and Pristina. Some were going to the

19 south-east towards Prizren, others westwards towards Montenegro?

20 A. Yes, and there's another way across Cakor and the gorge but that

21 is a part of macadamised road surface and it's a fairly bad road so people

22 tend to avoid it. The Serbs avoided it constantly because that was the

23 terrain that the KLA held under its control and there were quite a number

24 of abductions of both Serbs and Albanians there and the terrain was

25 considered completely inaccessible security-wise.

Page 39044

1 Q. Yes. Let's just conclude. Now, are you saying that nobody, none

2 of the authorities -- you said that the army wasn't even there, there were

3 no soldiers there, that there was just policemen, so that nobody -- none

4 of the authorities, including the police, didn't force the citizens to

5 leave Pec. Is that what you're saying?

6 A. Precisely. That is precisely what I'm saying. And they couldn't

7 have forced them either. How could you force such a large mass of people

8 to leave? You couldn't. Anybody in my line of business would know that

9 if you have 10.000 people, then ten policemen can't do anything with those

10 10.000 even if they wanted to. Not even 50 or a hundred policemen would

11 be able to move, set this mass of people in motion if they didn't want to

12 go and didn't want to leave. And that was our experience throughout when

13 the mass demonstrations started in Kosovo and Metohija. We just weren't

14 able to do anything like that, whatever police force or whatever strength

15 we had on our side.

16 Q. Tell us now, how did the police behave in cases of air attacks?

17 What did they do in those cases?

18 A. Well, in the case of an air attack, our first aim was to establish

19 where it was happening, where it was taking place if it wasn't actually

20 where we were able to see it. So to pinpoint the actual location, to

21 reach the area as soon as possible, and to evacuate any wounded and

22 injured if there were any, to offer assistance to them, and to secure the

23 area in case of cluster bombs or anything like that. And after, to carry

24 out an on-site investigation if that was possible. We weren't able to

25 reach some of the areas and locations for a number of reasons. It was

Page 39045

1 either inaccessible terrain or it was under KLA control, the access roads

2 I mean, so we weren't able to carry out on-site investigations on quite a

3 number of places.

4 Now, we didn't file any criminal reports or anything of that kind.

5 We merely took note of them, registered them, and that remained in the

6 archives.

7 Q. Now, during the war, and I'm only speaking of your own experience,

8 what you personally know from the Pec area and the secretariat, was there

9 any resubordination of the police to the army?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. With respect to which activities did this resubordination take

12 place?

13 A. With respect to combat operations and combat activities, so if

14 there was any fighting going on, any combat, the members of the police

15 were resubordinated to the army and within the frameworks of providing

16 security for those areas and taking measures for the sanitisation of the

17 terrain as well.

18 Q. Very well. Now, in addition to that kind of activity, the police

19 -- what other things did the police do?

20 A. The police went about its regular duties. If there was no

21 fighting or no combat, then we would get on with our jobs. At the time,

22 there was no significant combat in the area that I was there, so we were

23 able to go about our regular business mostly.

24 Q. When our police and army forces were replaced by the KFOR forces,

25 to what extent did the Serb population leave Kosovo and Metohija and when

Page 39046

1 did they do so?

2 A. From my area almost everybody left. In the area of Pec, about

3 1.000 inhabitants were left in the village of Gorazdevac and about 20

4 inhabitants in the village of Sokolac. All the rest left.

5 Q. At that time, were there any crimes committed against the Serbs?

6 A. Well, that was the reason why the Serbs left the area. After KFOR

7 came, after they took over the territory, I was the person who conducted

8 the hand-over with KFOR. They took over the territory. They guaranteed

9 that they would provide peace and order and security and safety for all

10 persons, but that did not happen. We saw ourselves that the members of

11 the so-called KLA came in uniform at the same time they did. They

12 patrolled the city. They were looking purportedly for Serbian criminals,

13 as they said, actually members of the military and the police. They asked

14 people to show their IDs. They broke into houses. Many people were

15 killed. Over 50 persons were killed. Many women were raped

16 and killed. Even children were killed and the elderly.

17 People left their homes and left altogether. I got out on the

18 25th of June, that is to say 14 days after they arrived.

19 Q. What you described to us now sounds like chaos and mass crimes.

20 A. Well, that's exactly the way it was.

21 Q. Did KFOR carry out its duty? Did they provide security and safety

22 for citizens?

23 A. No. They said quite openly to us that they could not guarantee

24 any safety and security. This was sometime after the 20th of June, when

25 endless columns of Albanians were going. They barged into houses like

Page 39047

1 savages. They took houses, they expelled Serbs from them. Then KFOR told

2 us that they could not guarantee any kind of safety to us, and we left

3 under their protection. These were convoys of Serbs protected by KFOR

4 with tanks and armoured vehicles.

5 Q. We are now looking at this entire period that you're testifying

6 about. In these documents there is a great deal of information. Can it

7 be said that all the dead, either Albanians or Serbs or members of other

8 ethnic communities, were found? Because you established in great detail

9 all the individual cases that are involved.

10 A. It cannot be said that all the dead were found. Quite simply, we

11 could not do that. We were not in a position to do that. There were a

12 lot of places that were inaccessible to us. Also, members of the

13 so-called Kosovo Liberation Army would take their own dead away. They

14 took the others, too, in the meantime, before we managed to arrive there.

15 They did it for several reasons, but the main reason was that if we were

16 to find the dead, we would identify them and then our attention would be

17 focused on that. We would establish who this was and we would start

18 criminal prosecutions. So that was one of the reasons.

19 They also wanted to cover up their own crimes, so they hid the

20 corpses of the killed Serbs as much as they could. Often we could not

21 reach the sites because there was the danger of being attacked. So we had

22 to carry out investigations while providing broad-base security for the

23 actual sites. This was not only in 1998 and 1999, it was also in 1997.

24 We would usually have to provide security in-depth at the site, and it was

25 only then that the investigation team could arrive, either with or without

Page 39048

1 an investigating judge.

2 That happened in 1997 and throughout 1998. When the on-site

3 investigation was carried out for the late Desimir Vasic, even helicopters

4 were used to provide security in the area because it was so --

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: May I intervene just very briefly.

7 Mr. Paponjak, in the document we were considering yesterday, which

8 was tab 1.4, you dealt with the deaths and the casualties in relation to

9 armed conflicts. Can you have that just briefly in front of you.

10 That document includes a number of incidents from the 25th of June

11 onwards, through July and into August.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: These are accounts of incidents which were

14 investigated.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have to have a look at all of this

16 and see what it's about.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Tab 1.4 is a list of security

18 related incidents resulting in death from 1 until the last number --

19 JUDGE BONOMY: My reason for asking you is that you were talking

20 about the KLA being responsible after the 25th of June for a number of

21 deaths of elderly people and children. Will these appear in tab 1.4?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for what we managed to establish

23 and find out, that is all contained in this tab 1.4. But in other tabs

24 there is information about persons who died and about who we do not have

25 much knowledge. We have a chapter about abducted persons and persons who

Page 39049

1 went missing. We don't know what their fate ultimately was. However,

2 since we don't know what happened to them for five years, we assume

3 that --

4 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no, no. Let's try to be specific,

5 Mr. Paponjak. You have said that a number of elderly people and children

6 were killed by the KLA after KFOR came on the scene, and I just wanted you

7 to point to a few examples for me, if you could, from this document.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this document, number 225, the

9 12th of June.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm talking about after the 25th of June, which was

11 the date you said chaos reigned.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] KFOR arrived on the 13th of June in

13 the area of Pec.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: All the more reason for not dealing with the 12th

15 of June.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But the 14th, then. From the 14th

17 onwards. We can deal with this in order. Each and every one of these

18 examples, there is at least one corpse involved.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you point to the children and the elderly

20 people who were killed, which is the particular claim I'm concerned

21 about. In other words, the idea that the KLA were killing children and

22 elderly people. It's that point that I want you to deal with. I hope

23 you're in no doubt about the point I'm actually asking a question about.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand. From the concrete

25 cases -- we don't have any information here about the dates of birth, but

Page 39050

1 if you deal with the concrete cases, you can see exactly who the elderly

2 were and who the children were.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: See, my problem is it's not translated and

4 therefore I'm looking to you for guidance on the document and I was hoping

5 you could give me that quite quickly, but if it's a difficult exercise,

6 forget it and we'll move on with the examination.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] By your leave, just one explanation.

8 This document was not compiled for the Court, so perhaps it is therefore

9 inappropriate. However, we can handle this very easily. We can look at

10 all the individual cases and find the exact cases of this nature. This

11 was done for our own purposes, police purposes. So we are just presenting

12 it now as it is.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Colonel --

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I proceed, Mr. Bonomy?

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Certainly, Mr. Milosevic.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Colonel, is it obvious here from this survey, in order to

19 facilitate the explanation that Mr. Bonomy sought, from 229 onwards - and

20 229 is the date of the 14th of June, that is to say the date after the

21 arrival of KFOR - up to number 285, which is the end of this list, all of

22 these involve persons who had been killed? And according to the

23 information you have, 56 persons were killed in that period of time that

24 Mr. Bonomy was inquiring about, in the information that you have

25 available.

Page 39051

1 A. I can say that that is the lowest figure that can be looked at

2 because there are a great many people who are still missing and we don't

3 know what their ultimate fate was. At least 56 were killed.

4 Q. You have information about 56 persons?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. For a certain number of persons you don't have information?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So the number can only be bigger?

9 A. That's right.

10 Q. Tell me now, please, when looking at all the deaths involved, were

11 all cases reported to the police?

12 A. I cannot say that they were. I assume that not all were reported.

13 I cannot claim with any degree of certainty that all cases were reported

14 to the police.

15 Q. All right. In relation to what you established and where you had

16 information, were all criminal cases completed and could they have been

17 completed?

18 A. They were not completed. There are still open cases. We cannot

19 take any kind of action with regard to some of them, many of them, because

20 we are not in the territory where these crimes had been committed.

21 Persons we should interview are not accessible to us. We have no

22 cooperation whatsoever with the police that is in charge of such work

23 there now. We took initiatives several times in terms of working

24 together. Many cases would have been dealt with properly. It would have

25 been easier to identify the dead had we had this kind of cooperation.

Page 39052












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 39053

1 I found out here, and I saw some materials related to the

2 exhumations and post-mortems carried out by the Spaniards. We could have

3 perhaps easily identified these person. They haven't identified them yet.

4 Q. Colonel, you say that you proposed to cooperate with the police

5 and to resolve these cases. Did KFOR and UNMIK show any desire to

6 cooperate?

7 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ... stop the accused

8 spending his time in whatever he likes, but what is the relevance of all

9 this, I respectfully ask.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: You can say it goes to Article 7(3),

11 responsibility.

12 Mr. Milosevic, what's the relevance?

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You put the questions here,

14 Mr. Robinson, to one of the previous witnesses as to whether they

15 attempted to start some kind of cooperation. When I say "you," I'm not

16 referring to you personally but one of you, rather. Did they try to

17 establish some kind of cooperation with UNMIK and KFOR? So I'm putting

18 the same question to Colonel Paponjak, because he said that they had

19 attempted to cooperate. So I'm asking him whether UNMIK and KFOR

20 displayed any wish to carry through such cooperation. He already said

21 that not all the criminal cases were completed.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Deal with it briefly, Mr. Milosevic.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, he already would have answered

24 by now.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 39054

1 Q. Did they show any wish to cooperate?

2 A. By way of declaration, yes. For example, specifically the killing

3 of children in August 2003 in Gorazdevac. They said that they could not

4 get to the area at all and that they could not establish contact with the

5 persons involved. We suggested that we cooperate, and I suggested that

6 two of my men join their team. However, we never managed to accomplish

7 that.

8 The killing of these children is still unresolved, but we could

9 not work together, although from our side we proffered two experienced

10 policemen.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: That point has been sufficiently ventilated.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Colonel, let's try to deal with this as efficiently as possible,

15 and let's look at the numbers involved, those that are in the second part

16 of this document, the information on security related incidents resulting

17 in death, et cetera, et cetera. It's a very long heading in tab 1, the

18 one that we started looking at yesterday.

19 In tab 1.1, is there a list of all identified persons who were

20 dead in this period from the 10th of June, 1999, to the 1st of June, 2001?

21 A. I've just received the list.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Milosevic, in the index, which is all we have

23 in English, the heading for this tab starts off "Lists of identified

24 persons starved to death..." Is that a mistake in translation?

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Certainly. Certainly. It says

Page 39055

1 "List of persons who died," who lost their lives in that period. It must

2 be a technical mistake in the translation.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Let us deal with this very briefly. Colonel, in tab 1.1, there is

6 a list of all persons who were identified, and it's presented in two ways,

7 as far as I can see; in terms of the case numbers, that is one of the ways

8 in which this was dealt with, and then there's a list of names in

9 alphabetical order.

10 A. Precisely.

11 Q. And then you have a list of cases involving unidentified persons

12 in the same tab.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. For the same period for the municipality of Pec or, rather, the

15 area of responsibility of the SUP of Pec.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. All right. That's 1.1. Now, tab 1.2. I hope that we will be

18 able to establish very easily what the information involved is.

19 First of all, let us clarify whether all this information is based

20 on specific individual cases.

21 A. Yes, they are. However, I would like to make a remark here;

22 namely, I can't say with any certainty that there aren't any discrepancies

23 here, and I will explain.

24 This data was compiled on the basis of the so-called incident log

25 that we keep at the police. The police can obtain information from any

Page 39056

1 citizen who can or may not identify himself. The police records whatever

2 the citizen has reported and continues working to establish the facts in

3 the case.

4 In this list, we have one case on record that we have not shed

5 light on until the end, but I do know for a fact that the incident didn't

6 really happen the way it was described. On this list of identified

7 persons who found their deaths in armed conflicts, we have a list of 73

8 people. That is the list that we compiled on the basis of initial data.

9 In fact, the number is not 73. It's much smaller. This case or some of

10 these cases fall under the competency of army authorities. However, in

11 this list we left the figures and the incidents that were reported to us

12 initially. We believe it is better to err on this side, on the side of

13 larger numbers. They can always be corrected if it proves necessary.

14 Q. Thank you, Colonel. That means that the police always puts on

15 record any report they get, and it remains in the incident log so that

16 later, if some additional information becomes available, it becomes useful

17 in establishing facts. The police does not remove from its records even

18 those things that seem incomplete until the file is closed.

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. Let us look at tab 1.2. I hope it has been translated by now.

21 The one I just received is actually A/III. Anyway, these are figures, so

22 it would be quite simple to look at them.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we put on the ELMO this table

24 from tab 1.2.

25 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ... in translation. I

Page 39057

1 don't know if the Court has. In fact, I think for the sake of purposes of

2 the record, none of the documents to which this witness has been referred

3 has been available in English translation thus far.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think we have list A/III.

5 JUDGE KWON: 1.5. Yes. We received translation of 1.5 but

6 nothing else.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. It says here A3/III. Well, I think it's quite possible to use

9 this data too, because under tab 1.2, which I mentioned, we have

10 information for the entire area of responsibility of the Pec SUP, and I

11 stand to be corrected, Colonel, if I'm mistaken about anything.

12 In this other tab, A3/III, we have this same kind of data for the

13 municipality of Klina, but the last figure --

14 A. Yes, the last figure is correct.

15 Q. With the only difference that in one of them we have a breakdown

16 by municipality, and in the other one we have breakdown by time period.

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. We could put this other table on the ELMO and then we can look at

19 the figures. Do you have 1.2 before you?

20 A. I have overview A2/III. That's the one I have.

21 Q. That is 1.2. Is this the overview of security related incidents

22 resulting in death that occurred in connection with armed conflicts in

23 Kosovo and Metohija from 1st of January, 1998, to the 1st of June, 2001 in

24 the area of SUP Pec by time period. First we have number of incidents and

25 then the number of corpses. Up to the middle of 1998, that is the first

Page 39058

1 column, then until the end, the 31st of December, 1980 -- 1998. Second

2 column, then we have from the 1st of January until the 23rd of March,

3 until the beginning of the war. The fourth column is the period of the

4 war, and the last column is post-war.

5 Could you put this table on the ELMO.

6 A. It seems to be already on the ELMO here in front of me.

7 Q. Now, regardless of the number of incidents, various incidents

8 involve a varying number of deaths. Now we look at the number of deaths.

9 A. Yes. That is 606.

10 Q. That is the total. But we can also see it broken down by these

11 various time periods.

12 A. In the first half of 1998, it was 42. In the first half of -- in

13 the second half of 1998 it was 81. Before the NATO aggression, 18.

14 During the NATO aggression 388, and post-NATO aggression 77. In total

15 606.

16 Q. In this 388, does this number include the 73 that you mentioned

17 before?

18 A. Yes, it does.

19 Q. Below that we see out of that Albanians and Others. Albanians in

20 total, 318; and Others in total, 288.

21 A. Correct. "Others" include all non-Albanians; Serbs, Romas, and

22 others.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, what are you seeking to establish

24 by these statistics?

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I hope, Mr. Robinson, that

Page 39059

1 these figures are self-explanatory, because you can see from them both the

2 ethnic structure, gender, and status. You will see under Status,

3 terrorists, civilians, unknown, men, women, children in the category of

4 Albanians; and in the category of Others you will see members of the army,

5 members of the MUP, civilians, men, women, children.

6 This is a very good table that shows how many people found their

7 deaths in various terrorist attacks mounted by Albanians, due to NATO

8 bombing, and in the course of perpetration of various crimes. This is a

9 very important table indeed, from which one can see that practically none

10 of the allegations - and I'm now speaking about the area covered by the

11 Secretariat of the Interior in Pec, and we will later see about the entire

12 Kosovo and Metohija - we will see that none of the allegations and none of

13 the charges that the Prosecution is trying to make against the state

14 authorities of Serbia are -- or the FRY are true.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... establishes

16 that. It establishes that people died. It doesn't establish how they

17 died or in what circumstances. There's no dispute that people died.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I have just said,

19 Mr. Robinson, that for the most part you can also see from this table the

20 circumstances of death. You can see, for instance, that there is a great

21 disproportion between the number of Albanians and non-Albanians who died.

22 Even if you doubt, if you have any doubts about what the colonel said

23 about the number of 73 who were killed --

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, let's move on.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 39060

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Now, in terms of structure, when we compare Albanians and

3 non-Albanians, that is others, in your area you have 19 women who were

4 killed in total and twice as many -- more than twice as many, 44, among

5 non-Albanian population.

6 A. That is correct. You can see that clearly on this first page.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm not following that.

8 JUDGE KWON: Yes. It's very difficult for us to follow that

9 without having the interpretation.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Even if you set aside --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. The interpreters didn't

12 hear the question.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. I can explain what is

14 contained on the first page.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Please do that so that we can all understand. And since we all

17 see the numbers on the screen, use the pointer so that we can know what

18 we're talking about.

19 A. Here it says, "Number of corpses by national structure, gender,

20 and status." This column says "Number of Albanian corpses." The figure

21 is 318. Albanians are subdivided -- that is, the corpses of Albanians are

22 subdivided into terrorists, civilians, unknown. Terrorists, 73;

23 civilians, 245; unknown, nothing, none.

24 Again, by gender: Albanians, men, 298; women, 19; children, 1.

25 Then the number of other corpses by gender -- that is, the total

Page 39061

1 number was 288. By status: VJ members, 62; MUP members, 57; civilians

2 169.

3 By gender: Men, 242; women, 44; children, 2.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, but what I don't understand is this: What

5 is established by this, by all these figures. People died. I don't think

6 there is any question about that. The question is, in what circumstances

7 did they die?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the next page you will find

9 precisely that.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On the following page, Mr. Robinson,

11 you have very clear statistics about that. If you turn the page, you will

12 see "Number of corpses by circumstances of death and ethnic structure."

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here we have the number of incidents

14 involved in terrorist attacks.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. This whole block deals with terrorist attacks.

17 A. In 166 terrorist attacks, 238 people died. Out of that, 53

18 Albanians and 185 others. This is what we see here.

19 Q. Then we have anti-terrorist attacks.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Who determines whether there was a terrorist

21 attack? Who makes that determination?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On-site inspections were made on the

23 spot. Investigating judges made on-site investigations, proper procedure

24 was followed, criminal reports were filed, and criminal proceedings were

25 instituted.

Page 39062

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Paponjak, on the second page, column 5, which

2 is the 1st of January, 1999, until the 23rd of March, 1999, that's the

3 period immediately before the bombing, have I rightly understood that

4 there were only two deaths from terrorist attacks in the first column, two

5 in the next column, and two in the fourth column? That's a total of six

6 during that three-month period.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Remarkably peaceful then.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is possible that the competent

10 authorities failed to qualify certain incidents as terrorist attacks. We

11 have a problem in our law with the qualification of terrorist attacks.

12 Some things are qualified as terrorism and others are not.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Can we rely on the statistics or can we not rely on

14 the statistics? You have to make your mind up.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Bonomy, kindly bear in mind that

16 in the fourth block on this page there is information about deaths that

17 occurred in the course of perpetration of crimes. So certain things that

18 were actually a terrorist attack could have been qualified as the crime of

19 murder. One and the same act was qualified as murder rather than a

20 terrorist attack.

21 When we had witness Gojovic here, a question was asked whether

22 certain acts should be qualified as war crime or murder, especially

23 multiple murder, which is a more grievous crime. That is up to the

24 prosecutor how to qualify a certain act. But in this case we have 14

25 people killed.

Page 39063

1 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ...

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Milosevic, when the evidence concentrates on

3 dates which are not part of the indictment, I have to ask myself the

4 question is there a reason for that? Why does the evidence not

5 concentrate on the dates that are part of the indictment? Is it because

6 there isn't any evidence to support you in that period?

7 It would help me greatly, and I make the point I'm speaking for

8 myself, if we could have clear evidence about the period covered by the

9 indictment, and that's why I focus on these months immediately before the

10 NATO bombing.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Bonomy, as far as I understand

12 it, the entire period is covered, and the fact that -- or, rather, what

13 you're saying now confirms my assertions that I have to prove here that it

14 is not -- that what is in the indictment is not correct and not Mr. Nice

15 to show that it is correct, and here we see that it is not correct.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: That's a deliberate misinterpretation of what I've

17 just said to you. You have chosen to lead the evidence, and when you do

18 that, it's up to you to lead evidence that's relevant. You can't, just

19 because you're in the phase of leading your evidence, lead whatever you

20 please whether it's relevant to the trial or not.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Bonomy, could you please explain

22 to me, then, how can it be irrelevant? How can what happened, for

23 example, in the whole of 1999 be irrelevant, or in 1998, for that matter?

24 In the indictment, they mention mid-1996. Here we have 1998, 1999, up

25 until the 5th of June, 2001. So this whole period is relevant.

Page 39064

1 JUDGE BONOMY: The only period during which you could be found

2 guilty criminally in this case is the period from the 1st of January,

3 1999, and indeed ending in June 1999.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Bonomy. If it is

5 from the 1st of January, 1999, then that goes to the 20th of June, which

6 means a vertical column number 5 and 6, and that is the most numerous, the

7 highest numbers there, because in columns 5 and 6 you have a total of over

8 400 people resulting in death. So that is more than two-thirds of the

9 total number.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: Please now return to your examination.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. In terrorist attacks, Colonel, how many people died? How many

14 were killed in the terrorist attacks, for which I hope we have provided

15 explanation as to how they were qualified and categorised.

16 A. The number of people who died was 166, or, rather, there were 166

17 attacks and 238 people were killed. Of that, 53 were Albanians and 185

18 were other.

19 Q. Yes. Now, in the anti-terrorist activities --

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. -- 35 died; is that right?

22 A. In anti-terrorist activities, and I'm trying to place this on the

23 overhead projector here --

24 Q. Anti-terrorist activities, 35 persons lost their lives, and

25 including KLA members, all Albanians.

Page 39065












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Page 39066

1 A. Yes, that's right. Now we come to the NATO bombing figures.

2 Twenty-four there --

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Colonel, could you explain to me, what are the

4 features of an anti-terrorist activity? What is a typical anti-terrorist

5 activity?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A typical anti-terrorist activity is

7 an activity on the part of the police force which is planned and

8 organised, a planned and organised action on the part of the police to

9 repel or deblock a terrain. So it takes place based on a plan devised in

10 advance.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ...

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right, a terrain

13 occupied by terrorists. That's right.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you in a position to give evidence about any

15 of these anti-terrorist activities? What actually happened during any of

16 these activities? I'm not talking now about the figures which you have

17 here.

18 Because, Mr. Milosevic, it seems to me that that's what would be

19 important and helpful to your case, as I mentioned yesterday. If you have

20 evidence of an anti-terrorist activity carried out by the police and

21 during that activity Albanians and civilians were killed and there is a

22 charge in the indictment that relates to that particular activity, then

23 that's very relevant and helpful. But I'm not sure that we are helped

24 very much by statistics which show how many people were killed in

25 anti-terrorist activity. We need to know the precise circumstances

Page 39067

1 surrounding that activity, and that is what would enable the Chamber to

2 determine culpability. But the mere statistics are not helpful, because

3 they don't indicate the circumstances. We need evidence as to the

4 circumstances in which people died.

5 Continue.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, we have documents

7 standing behind these figures on the basis of which these figures were

8 devised. So if we say that 35 persons were killed, or terrorists were

9 killed during anti-terrorist activities, that means that we have documents

10 on the basis of which that was established.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Now, Colonel, is it the aim of anti-terrorist activities to

13 liquidate or to arrest the perpetrators of the terrorist attacks? What

14 was it?

15 A. Well, it was never our goal to liquidate them. That goal does not

16 exist within the police force as such.

17 Q. So when you launch an anti-terrorist activity, your endeavour is

18 to apprehend the perpetrators of the terrorist attacks, and deaths incur

19 if there is resistance and if the perpetrators shoot at the police and

20 there is counter-fire from the police. Is that the situation that occurs

21 mostly?

22 A. Yes, precisely.

23 Q. Now, we have the NATO bombing column. 144 persons lost their

24 lives there.

25 A. Yes. 145 deaths. Of that, 96 were Albanians, and the rest, 48.

Page 39068

1 Q. Right. Fine. Now we come to crimes. 148 persons killed there.

2 A. Yes. Of that number, 118 were Albanians, and others 30.

3 Q. Then we come to other or miscellaneous. I don't understand what

4 that actually means, but we won't dwell on that.

5 A. In different other events, in different instances.

6 Q. I see. There's a death through suicide, deaths in hospitals, et

7 cetera, et cetera, that kind of thing.

8 Right. Now, can you tell us, please, since you yourself were the

9 leader of collecting and classifying this material, you were in charge of

10 that, from this, from the material, can we see how deaths were incurred,

11 how these people lost their lives? Is that what they show, these

12 documents?

13 A. This was compiled on the basis of the documents that we have in

14 our possession. So we collected the documents, classified them and

15 processed them statistically, and from the tables we have lists, and the

16 lists deal with individual cases, individual incidents. And in each case,

17 we have the corresponding documentation provided by the investigating

18 judge or based on our own notes or collected in other ways.

19 Q. Now, in the -- in block number 4, it says the number of on-site

20 investigations, and we see that the number there is 126. That's quite a

21 lot less than the number of incidents.

22 A. Yes, it is completely disproportionate, but the reason is that

23 on-site investigations quite simply could not be conducted because there

24 were 229 to begin with, and 216 on-site investigations. 298 is the

25 figure.

Page 39069

1 Q. Now, do you think that is a high percentage or not?

2 A. Yes, it is a high percentage, and this was done thanks to the

3 efforts of the investigating judge and organs in general.

4 Q. We see that in most cases the on-site investigation was conducted

5 with the presence of an investigating judge; is that right?

6 A. Yes. 126 were just the police there, and one which was

7 incomplete.

8 Q. And we see that 174 cases there was no on-site investigation.

9 Could you tell us why? What were the reasons that that wasn't able to be

10 done?

11 A. Because the situation was unsafe. It was unsafe for the people

12 who were supposed to carry out the on-site investigation, because of

13 attack or their impossibility to reach the scene of the crime. And I said

14 that certain on-site investigations had to be conducted with the

15 assistance of helicopters, for example.

16 JUDGE KWON: Excuse me, Mr. Milosevic. Can I hear from the

17 witness a bit more about the murdered people by crime. I heard that there

18 are 148 people who were killed in all, but in particular, I see there are

19 108 people died during the period of war. Among them, most of them are

20 Albanians, 93 people. And 18 and none others, non-Albanians.

21 Could you elaborate a bit more on this? What are those crimes,

22 and do you know the circumstances, how these people were killed? So I

23 assume that those Albanians are killed possibly by the local Serbs or --

24 including paramilitaries. Do you have any idea on this?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand your question. We

Page 39070

1 started doing this work, that is to say, after analysing the incidents

2 resulting in death, criminal acts were against Albanians, and we wanted to

3 investigate and see what happened there.

4 In this figure 93, the 93 figure which is the subject of our

5 attention here, we include the figure of 73 unidentified persons for an

6 incident in which we were -- which we were not able to check out but we

7 nonetheless included it in the table. And in that event, according to

8 some information that I have which need not be absolutely correct, there

9 might be less than 20. So this figure could be reduced by 50 straight

10 away, and then it would make it 40-odd.

11 Now, these were different types of crimes. For example, a father

12 killed his son, a husband killed his wife, and all that is included into

13 that column.

14 Now, I myself don't remember whether we have a case where a Serb

15 killed an Albanian in this particular section. I can't remember anything

16 like that. But of course, if I were to look through the documents, that I

17 would be able to tell you quite clearly.

18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Colonel. I think that's the furthest I

19 can hear from you.

20 Proceed, Mr. Milosevic.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Kwon.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Now, here we see the figure of 144 for persons who died in the

24 NATO bombing. How many bombings did NATO effect in your area?

25 A. I don't know the exact figure, but about 100 sorties.

Page 39071

1 Ninety-seven, I think. That is another fact that is contained in the

2 documents.

3 Q. Here we can see that overall in the NATO bombing 144 persons lost

4 their lives in your area, in the area of your SUP.

5 A. Yes, that's right. And this figure of 24, number 24 for the NATO

6 bombings, number of NATO bombings, that refers to more serious cases with

7 consequences; but otherwise, attacks with bombings, there were 97 of

8 those, or thereabouts.

9 Q. And we're just talking about your particular area, the area

10 comprised by your SUP; is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And where did the bombing have the worst consequences?

13 A. The worst consequences of the bombing were in the Dubrava prison,

14 the correction centre, and at Savine Vode. In the Dubrava correction

15 centre, about 100 persons lost their lives, and at Savine Vode, I think

16 the figure was 24.

17 Q. Let's just go back for a moment to the question of crimes,

18 criminal acts, as raised by Mr. Kwon. How many on-site investigations

19 were conducted in respect of those crimes? Do you have those facts and

20 figures?

21 A. As to number of on-site investigations conducted, this refers to

22 all on-site investigations. So we haven't distinguished how many for

23 crimes, how many for anti-terrorist activities or NATO bombings, et

24 cetera. So during that period of time, 33 on-site investigations were

25 conducted by investigating judges, 13 by the police, and another was

Page 39072

1 partially conducted, which means a total of 46.

2 Q. Very well. Now, do you think there are any other -- that there is

3 any other characteristic information that we can comment on here, anything

4 else of interest?

5 A. Perhaps I could draw your attention to the facts and figures as to

6 the number of persons or bodies interred, buried, and what crimes were

7 solved.

8 Q. Where do you have that information as to the crimes solved?

9 A. That's on the last page.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I have allowed you to question the

11 witness on these untranslated documents as a courtesy to facilitate your

12 examination, and also because the same courtesy was extended to the

13 Prosecution during its -- the presentation of its case, but I have to say

14 that it's very difficult for me to follow what is in the document. One

15 can see the figures, but the -- what the figures are -- relate to is not

16 translated, and it's -- I pick it up from what you say and what comes

17 through the translation, but it does -- it is really very difficult, and I

18 wonder whether it is the best course. It's a matter which I'll discuss

19 with my colleagues, to have the evidence presented in this way, even

20 though we did the same thing in relation to the Prosecution when the

21 passages were relatively short. But let us see whether we can get beyond

22 the documents now and move on to Dubravica.

23 MR. NICE: Your Honour, as to this particular document and any

24 other documents that the accused may seek to put in in support of it, I

25 reserve my position. I don't think there was any occasion in the course

Page 39073

1 of the Prosecution's case where material of this kind was relied on for

2 this kind of extensive examination, and I observe that what we've probably

3 been having is as close to an expert analysis of other material. I'm not

4 quite sure what we've got until I ask a few questions of the witness but I

5 may say I reserve my position on this material. I'm certainly not going

6 to be able to cross-examine in detail on it, not the least because it's

7 untranslated but for other reasons as well.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think you're right in relation to the

9 Prosecution not having documents of this kind, statistics, not translated,

10 but we certainly extended the courtesy to the Prosecution in relation to

11 other kinds of documents which were short, and that was done quite

12 frequently.

13 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you Mr. Robinson. I just wish

15 to draw your attention to the following: These are official documents of

16 the Ministry of the Interior which were compiled and verified by the new

17 authorities on the basis of all the information available.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think you have missed the point. Let's move

19 on. Let's move on quickly.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Colonel --

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, could we finish tab 1

23 now. I've already said to you yesterday that this is a single document

24 that was subdivided to -- into six groups, 1.1 to 1.6. It was subdivided,

25 but it is still a single document and it contains information about all

Page 39074

1 the deaths involved in this period from the 1st of January, 1998, to 1st

2 of June, 2001. This is a list of all the incidents involved. It contains

3 all the statistics. It's an official document. The author -- well, no,

4 not the author, because several persons were involved. But it is a

5 verified document.

6 JUDGE KWON: To better understand this statistics, given that we

7 have an English translation of tab 1.5, could you briefly go through that

8 document.

9 MR. NICE: Your Honour, it may help if I make my position clear

10 now, I think. If, for example, the large tab, 1.4, is to be relied on as

11 supporting material, but in fact if any of these tabs are relied on as

12 supporting material one of the other, and if the summary or whatever it is

13 at tab 1 itself, the information are to be advanced as exhibits that can

14 be produced, I would urge the Chamber to rule otherwise. It is wholly

15 unrealistic to think that I or anybody on my team or the Court will be

16 able to get back and to look at in detail, for example, 1.4 after the

17 witness has left the court. It will be unrealistic to think that we'll

18 ask for the witness to come back to be cross-examined on this material,

19 and the material will simply be put in without ever being understood or

20 considered in the course of evidence or in advance of cross-examination.

21 It's the accused's fault that this material is not available in

22 translation. It may well be, actually, his fault that he didn't prepare

23 this material for production by service of a report in advance.

24 I can't deal with this material, and I would invite the Chamber

25 not, either automatically or in due course, to allow it to be admitted as

Page 39075

1 evidence. It doesn't help the Chamber and is going to burden us with

2 material we can't consider.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: I have a lot of sympathy for your submission, Mr.

4 Nice, as I am having a lot of difficulty with it, and 1.4 is exceedingly

5 long. But what we have done in the past, Mr. Nice, is we have marked the

6 documents for identification pending translation, but I believe the point

7 you are making is that examination is being carried out on the basis of

8 the untranslated documents.

9 I'm going to consider this matter with my colleagues.

10 JUDGE KWON: But as far as tab 1.4 is concerned, did you not say

11 that you would not oppose to admitting it when it was being dealt with

12 yesterday?

13 MR. NICE: I didn't opposed yesterday's. I wanted to see what was

14 going to be dealt with in evidence by the documents and because I've

15 always attempted to be as easy-going and generous with the accused as I

16 can, and I'm not going to stop, but I simply can't do the job for which

17 I'm engaged. I can't give the assistance to the Chamber, and Your

18 Honour's quite right that we sometimes admit material like this pending

19 translation and then the document goes in when translated. My point is

20 that that shouldn't happen in this case because it is unrealistic to think

21 that we'll ever get back to this material in a meaningful way, and the

22 consequence is that the witness will have given evidence without being

23 properly examined as he should be, and there's nothing I can do about it.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll consider the matter.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 39076

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll allow Mr. Milosevic to continue examining

2 on the documents, and we'll rule on the Prosecution's submission at the

3 end of the examination.

4 JUDGE KWON: And I misread some dates and figures in tab 1.5, so

5 you don't have to deal with that. I withdraw my request.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let me just clarify one more thing

7 for you. While you were conferring now, I looked at tab 1.4. Mr. Bonomy

8 put questions that had to do with persons killed after the 14th of June,

9 1999. Out of -- or, rather, from 221 or 229 to 285, those were the

10 relevant incidents. That is to say 37 incidents altogether -- no, sorry,

11 57 incidents altogether, and that's what I said when Mr. Bonomy put his

12 question. However, it is not a question of 57 dead persons. It is 57

13 incidents. In some incidents there were two dead persons involved, in

14 some there were four, in some there were none.

15 So the number of dead that can be seen from this survey from the

16 -- from incident number 229 on the 14th of June to 285, the number of

17 deaths involved is much larger than the number of incidents, because in

18 most cases it is one, but in some there are two, some involve seven

19 deaths, and some involve four. So please bear that in mind.

20 In this list in tab 1.4, all incidents involving deaths were

21 included, and these are the result of all the statistics that were

22 processed. And the relevant authorities in Serbia have accompanying

23 information for each and every one of these cases.

24 I believe that it is clear enough why this is important, and these

25 are official documents at that.

Page 39077

1 A few moments ago, you mentioned that you received a translation

2 of tab 1.5. Tab 1.5 is a list of security related incidents resulting in

3 death from the 10th of June, 1999 to the 1st of June 2001. In those two

4 years, only in the area of Pec.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Please, Colonel, take a look at this tab 1.5.

7 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Milosevic, you don't have to deal with that.

8 Let's move on. I said I would withdraw my question.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Fine, Mr. Kwon.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Colonel, let us move on to tab 2. In tab 1, you provided

12 information. Let me not repeat this time and again, it has to do with

13 your area of responsibility of the SUP of Pec. It is information about

14 crimes committed against Albanians. This includes most of the answers to

15 the questions related to Albanians as victims.

16 A. That's right.

17 Q. Since you are the signatory of this particular brief as well and

18 since you are testifying here now, please be so kind as to look at the

19 information that you provided in tab 2 in this brief. You say on page 2

20 and in paragraph 2: "The police acted in accordance with the law and

21 treated all citizens equally."

22 Did the police treat all citizens equally regardless of whether

23 they were Serbs, Albanians, Roma, or anybody else?

24 A. Absolutely.

25 MR. NICE: Your Honour, it is necessary occasionally to see the

Page 39078












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13 English transcripts.













Page 39079

1 lighthearted side of things. We've now reached the following interesting

2 form of examination: A witness writes down some observation which is

3 clearly a general conclusion with or without any ability to make such a

4 conclusion. Because it's in a document, the accused is then able to lead

5 the conclusion to him. Well, it's a valueless question and would be a

6 valueless answer.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. It's an exceedingly leading

8 question that you asked.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: The index -- can I ask you again about the index to

10 this because it's the only English guidance we have. 2. -- So tab 2 is

11 described as "Information on criminal acts committed on the loss of

12 Albanians." Now, that can't be an accurate translation. What should it

13 be?

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] These are crimes whose victims are

15 Albanians. Mr. Paponjak presented here --

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Are they all deaths of Albanians in every case?

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not deaths in all cases, but they

18 are crimes in each and every one of the cases. So it's crimes committed

19 against Albanians.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And then in tab 3, crimes committed

22 against Serbs. Then in tab 4, crimes committed against the Roma. Then in

23 tab 5, terrorist acts against the police. So that -- against the

24 Albanians, against the Serbs, against the Roma, against the police.

25 Then after that, information about registered security related

Page 39080

1 incidents concerning missing persons and abducted persons from the 1st of

2 January, 1998, to the 1st of June, 2001. In all fairness, kidnappings

3 continued after that but we do not have information about it here. So

4 when it says crimes against Albanians, it means that the injured party

5 involved are Albanians, regardless of whether they had been killed or

6 whether their property had been looted or whatever.

7 Since you said that the question and the answer were totally

8 irrelevant now, I would like to draw your attention to the fact that I

9 quoted a paragraph from this brief which is an official document and where

10 it says that the police took actions in accordance with the law, treating

11 all citizens equally. I did not put a leading question. I quoted what

12 the document says, and on the basis of that, I put a question to the

13 witness who is sitting here right now, whether the police treated all

14 citizens equally, because I wanted to double-check what is stated in this

15 document is true.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: You should have asked the witness, "How did the

17 police treat citizens?" and then he would have answered, perhaps, "They

18 treated all citizens equally."

19 But it's time for the break. We're well beyond that time. We'll

20 take a break of 20 minutes.

21 --- Recess taken at 10.37 a.m.

22 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic, continue.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Robinson.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 39081

1 Q. Colonel, on the next page where we have an analysis of data, we

2 left off at this brief on crimes against Albanians. It says in the area

3 of the secretariat, a total of 208 -- 1.289 crimes were committed, after

4 which 303 against Albanians.

5 A. 190 with perpetrators unknown, and 104 with known perpetrators.

6 Q. It says 302 criminal reports were filed, out of which 198 against

7 unknown perpetrators.

8 MR. NICE: I don't know where the accused is reading from. If he

9 could help us.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Where exactly are you, Mr. Milosevic, in

11 the document?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am now in tab 2. That is

13 information or a brief on criminal acts committed against Albanians.

14 JUDGE KWON: Page 3 of tab 2 put on the ELMO. I think it's the

15 first page -- first paragraph of that page.

16 MR. NICE: And can I --

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is an analysis of data, that is

18 the sub-heading.

19 MR. NICE: And can I suggest if the accused going to take the

20 witness to a paragraph, rather than the accused read out his own summary

21 of it, it would be easier for all of us if he gets the witness to read the

22 paragraph and we can make notes about it ourselves, but it's very hard

23 both to pick up a paragraph in the Cyrillic script and to hear and accept

24 the accused's summary of it.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. That's a useful --

Page 39082

1 JUDGE KWON: Next page. Yes. That should be 2. I see the number

2 1.289 there.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. That is the page in front of you, Colonel.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. How many criminal reports were filed concerning these criminal

7 acts?

8 A. That is in paragraph 2 of this -- under this sub-heading. 302

9 criminal reports were filed, including 198 against unknown perpetrators,

10 104 against known perpetrators, and 191 reports as supplements to criminal

11 reports after the crimes have been solved and perpetrators identified.

12 That is common. If you file a criminal report against a known

13 perpetrator, the case is eventually solved and an additional report is

14 filed to the Prosecutor.

15 Q. Explain just one more matter here. In paragraph 1 you say that a

16 total of 303 criminal acts were perpetrated against Albanians, and you

17 said -- you quoted from paragraph 2 that 302 criminal reports were filed,

18 which means that one report was not filed.

19 A. Yes, because we established that it was a case involving NATO

20 bombing, so no criminal report was filed.

21 Q. Very well. Out of the total of crimes against Albanians, how many

22 perpetrators were caught on the spot?

23 A. In the police, we call it catching somebody red handed, and we had

24 86 such cases caught in the act.

25 Q. What is the structure of solved cases?

Page 39083

1 A. 27 terrorism, 14 thefts, 33 aggravated thefts, robberies 9,

2 aggravated robberies 3, and we have 2 crimes that are qualified as causing

3 general threat to safety.

4 Q. Did you establish -- did you identify the perpetrators in the

5 cases of crimes against Albanians according to their ethnic structure?

6 A. That is one of the parameters that were of interest to us in our

7 investigations. In 67 per cent of cases, perpetrators were Albanians,

8 Albanians that committed crimes against Albanians, whereas in 23 per cent

9 of cases the perpetrators were Serbs.

10 You will notice that there is another 10 per cent missing. Those

11 10 per cent are accounted for by others.

12 Q. You mean Roma, Muslims, et cetera.

13 A. We didn't record it because it was of no particular interest.

14 Q. Did policemen, when they were taking measures to protect citizens

15 and their property during the state of war, arrest any Serbs for

16 committing crimes against Albanians?

17 A. Policemen arrested all Serbs whom they established to have

18 committed crimes against Albanians. 70 Serbs were placed in detention for

19 committing such crimes against Albanians. Among them was a director of a

20 company who was caught in the act of committing a crime against an

21 Albanian. So we did not discriminate on the basis of ethnicity. Instead,

22 as soon as we identified a perpetrator of a crime, we arrested him or her,

23 these people were brought into custody, and proceedings were initiated

24 against them.

25 Q. Did you have any criminal proceedings instituted against a member

Page 39084

1 of the police?

2 A. Yes, there have been such criminal acts. Criminal reports were

3 filed against four regular policemen and three reserve policemen. I can

4 say that these policemen, too, were arrested and placed in detention

5 regardless of the fact that they were policemen. They committed a

6 criminal act, criminal reports were filed, and criminal proceedings were

7 instituted.

8 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Milosevic, I understand you are following this

9 information or report, but for us it's difficult to distinguish what is

10 your comment and what is the report, what is written as the report here.

11 So if you could ask the witness to read the -- the paragraph and then ask

12 question, if any.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I was precisely trying, Mr. Kwon,

14 not to indulge in commentary or leading questions but to elicit

15 information from the witness.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Still, Colonel, please read paragraphs 1, 2, and 3 -- no, sorry,

18 let us say fifth paragraph, beginning with "Perpetrators of criminal

19 acts..." and the following couple of paragraphs.

20 A. "The perpetrators of criminal acts are Albanians in 67 per cent of

21 the cases." That is the fifth paragraph under the sub-heading. "And

22 Serbs in 23 per cent of the cases. Members of the police, while taking

23 measures to protect citizens and their property during the state of war,

24 placed under arrest 70 Serbs for crimes committed against Albanians. This

25 number includes one director of a state-owned enterprise. Four criminal

Page 39085

1 reports were filed against policemen from the regular force and three

2 against policemen from the reserve force."

3 Q. Why did you make this distinction among the seven policemen who

4 were the subject of criminal reports?

5 A. We were interested in the structure because reserve policemen are

6 not professional policemen. They are reservists, as we call them. In

7 other words, citizens who had been trained for police work, and as the

8 need arises and upon orders of the minister, they may be engaged for

9 security work for a certain period. So these are not professionals but

10 people who have had some amount of quick training for this kind of work.

11 Q. What is written in the paragraph that follows?

12 A. "On the basis of a well-grounded suspicion that these persons have

13 committed criminal acts, members police -- members of the police have

14 turned over to military authorities 75 persons belonging to the reserve

15 force of the army of Yugoslavia, accompanied by an Official Note."

16 Q. You mean to say that you didn't arrest these people?

17 A. No. We would find these people wearing uniforms which were not

18 our uniforms. We knew they were not policemen. We would turn them over

19 to the army for them to go on investigating and to establish whether they

20 were their own members, because they needed to be identified.

21 Q. The next paragraph speaks about attempts of joint action -- read

22 that out.

23 A. "Attempts at joint activity between the police and the military

24 police did not yield the results that were expected for the reason that

25 military policemen were from the reserve force, insufficiently trained for

Page 39086

1 this kind of work. In addition, this force included individuals whose

2 earlier record indicated criminal conduct. The situation was considerably

3 improved after the arrival of regular units from the military police."

4 Q. Did that change eventually?

5 A. After the state of war was proclaimed in the territory of the Pec

6 municipality, military policemen of the reserve force were mobilised, and

7 their commander was also from the reserve force. They initially did not

8 perform very well, because they were sometimes required to act in relation

9 to their own neighbours and they found that difficult. They did this very

10 clumsily. But later, we started working at joint checkpoints, joint

11 patrols, et cetera, and they started functioning much better.

12 Q. Read on.

13 A. "There were no cases in which the police released or acquitted

14 criminals or cases where criminals were tolerated. On the contrary, all

15 perpetrators were subjected to appropriate legal measures. The facts

16 speak unequivocally to the fact that the police undertook all legal

17 measures against all criminals regardless of their ethnicity or the unit

18 they belonged to."

19 In light of arrests made against Serbs, negative comment appeared

20 among the Serbian population to the effect that Serbs were being

21 persecuted during the state of war. The MUP staff in Pristina and the

22 commanding officers of the SUP did not make any orders to enable the

23 perpetration of criminal acts. On the contrary, the orders were to

24 suppress any sort of criminal activity and to undertake urgent measures

25 against perpetrators.

Page 39087

1 Q. About this, I want to ask you, does this refer to Serbs who

2 committed criminal acts?

3 A. Yes. The citizens thought that they were being unjustly treated.

4 They were being bombed on the one hand, and they were perhaps expecting

5 the police to help them. And then they thought it unfair when we arrested

6 their own neighbours for theft or such things, but we were just doing our

7 work and we were arresting criminals.

8 I came to Pec from Cacak. Cacak is populated entirely by Serbs.

9 And then I find myself in a totally different environment where things are

10 completely different. In Cacak I would have never had such a problem.

11 So we tried to explain to the population that our action is

12 directed against criminals, regardless of a whether a person is a Serb, an

13 Albanian, a Roma, or other.

14 Q. Colonel, did you have a single case wherein a Serb who was known

15 to have committed a criminal act was tolerated, released, got off

16 scot-free?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Very well. Let's now move on to tab 2.1, which is a review of the

19 crimes against Albanians. Can you give us brief comments, because this is

20 just statistics taken out of the documents.

21 A. I'll try and place this on the overhead projector.

22 Q. Right. Let me just ask you this: How many on-site investigations

23 were conducted?

24 A. In 105 cases on-site investigations were carried out by the police

25 pursuant to authorisation from the investigating judge, 56 by the

Page 39088

1 investigating judge himself, 46 by the organs of the army of Yugoslavia

2 investigating organs, three there, partial on-site investigations in eight

3 cases, and no on-site investigations in 190 cases. The crime documents

4 were compiled for 102 cases.

5 Q. Thank you, Colonel.

6 Do I need to comment on tab -- or, rather, would you like to

7 comment on tab 2.2, because articles of the Criminal Code are listed, or

8 of the Criminal Code of Serbia in view of the different crimes and the

9 categorisation.

10 A. I think this is more or less clear if you compare it to the

11 provisions of the Criminal Code and the crimes listed. 62 is terrorism,

12 for example. Article 125 is the Criminal Code of the Federal Republic of

13 Yugoslavia. It is the crime of terrorism and there are 62 such cases.

14 Then another example, 141 or 2, that was something else. But 46 of the

15 Criminal Code of Serbia is murder, killings, and there were 23 cases of

16 that. Then article 47/19 refers to attempted murder. There were five of

17 those. 53 are bodily injuries. Article 53 refers to bodily injuries of

18 the Criminal Code. 103 of the Criminal Code of the Republic of Serbia are

19 sexual crimes and rapes. Then we have a series of crimes against

20 property. 165 is theft. There were 43 of those. Article 166 of the

21 Criminal Code of Serbia was grave aggravated assault. 868 was robbery

22 with violence, et cetera.

23 Q. Very well. Colonel, in tab 2.3, did you provide a list like the

24 general list in tab 1? Is this a list of the crimes committed against

25 Albanians in the period between the 1st of January, 1998, until the 10th

Page 39089

1 -- until the 10th of June, 1999?

2 A. Yes. Each chapter, first of all, contains a list, and the list

3 was compiled on the basis of individual threats, basis, that is, and it

4 contains a short description of the case of what happened, and on the

5 basis of this list the tables were compiled because that's statistics as

6 derived from the list, and on the basis of the list and the tables we

7 compiled a brief report that you will find at the beginning of each

8 chapter, and it is the general picture of the conditions under which the

9 work was done, the circumstances of the crime itself, and a brief analysis

10 which the individual encountering the case for the first time gains a

11 general impression of it, of what happened.

12 So the information or report is a general overview, the tables are

13 statistics, and number 3 is the list with individual incidents and events

14 on the basis of which the other two were compiled.

15 Now, in the archives or, rather, the records of the SUP of Pec,

16 there are cases and files for each of these crimes, acts. Some of them

17 are larger in scope, the document is more lengthy. Others are shorter

18 documents, and depending on what we were able to find.

19 Q. Very well. So this list was compiled for each of the cases and

20 incidents. We see that they were all against Albanians, Serbs, Romas,

21 police, et cetera, et cetera, so different types.

22 Now, Colonel, can we from these documents that you have provided

23 for us in the tabs, can we see from those the specific examples? And by

24 taking those examples, can we see how each case was dealt with, as you've

25 just explained it to us? That is to say that they are recorded -- the

Page 39090

1 cases are recorded in the SUP of Pec, and you have brought with you just a

2 number of examples, have you not?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Very well. So here we have a comprehensive or fairly broad

5 examination of the cases for a number of victims. Now, I'm going to ask

6 you, depending on what we find in each of the tabs --

7 JUDGE KWON: Just a minor --

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let me just take a look.

9 JUDGE KWON: Just a minor qualification. Tab 2.1 and 2.2 are

10 identical in my binder and the Presiding Judge's. I would like just to

11 check whether it is the case with other people in the courtroom.

12 MR. NICE: It's identical in ours, so far as I can see.

13 MR. KAY: Not in ours. We've got up in the top right-hand corner

14 B2/III for 2.1, and 2.2 is B3/III.

15 MR. NICE: No -- sorry.

16 JUDGE KWON: Yes, that number differs but the content of the

17 statement is --

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I explain? May I explain?

19 B2/III, that is to say tab 2.1, contains a review of the events by the

20 time periods, whereas B3/III, that is tab 2.2, is according to the

21 municipalities, Pec, Istok, Klina. They are collective figures. The

22 collective -- the end figure is the same, the end figures, however the

23 rest is different.

24 Now, as an example --

25 JUDGE KWON: I note that.

Page 39091












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 39092

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Since you spoke about the different

2 cases, the detailed ones, we have here examples of lists relating to

3 individual cases. We have a case which relates to the killing of Djordja

4 Belic, for example, the killing of Desimir Vasic. So they're two Serbs.

5 Then we come to Alia Rizah, an Albanian.

6 MR. NICE: I don't know where we're reading from.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, just pinpoint the particular

8 document.

9 MR. NICE: And since the accused has been giving an explanation of

10 the document, he seemed to have been speaking about 2.3 and seemed to be

11 saying, but I may have misunderstood him, that 2.3 wasn't all the

12 supporting document of its category but was a selection. I find that hard

13 to believe it must -- could be right, given that it's apparently a

14 document prepared as part of a report and it has sequential numbers, so

15 I'm completely confused.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm sorry if I have not been clear

17 enough in what I'm asking the witness. We went through tab 2, and the

18 witness said that each of the numbers contained therein are supplemented

19 by the case, whereas the entire file on each of these numbers and cases is

20 to be found at the Secretariat of the Interior of Pec.

21 Now, as we have some cases here, that is to say in tab 20 - so

22 it's no longer tab 2, it's tab 20 now - and some other tabs following that

23 one, and it is in binder number 5 of the seven binders.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. So as I was saying, in tab 20, Colonel, in tab 20.1, 20.2, 20.3,

Page 39093

1 and 20.4, do they contain detailed documents about the killings in this

2 case -- the killing in this case of Belic Djordja? Do you have that

3 binder?

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Perhaps the witness may be provided

5 with the binder to keep in front of him for the time being.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Milosevic, this relates to the 12th of January,

7 1998. When you come to the end of this case and you make your closing

8 submissions to the Chamber, what are you going to say that this

9 establishes in relation to this trial?

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is what this establishes --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Milosevic, please.

12 Microphone for the accused, please. Microphone.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Bonomy, let's clear up one

14 point: If I were to go through all the documents and all the information

15 that the legal organs have at their disposal and in their possession, that

16 would be a vast quantity of documents. Here we have taken documents from

17 the secretariat of Pec, just a number of cases which illustrate the cases

18 that have to do with Albanians and Serbs and from which we can see that an

19 identical -- they were dealt with in an identical way. The police, the

20 investigating organs acted identically when it came to the killing of

21 Albanians and the killing of Serbs. That is why I would like to draw to

22 your attention the fact that we could have had several thousand or at

23 least 1.200 or whatever number of cases when it comes to Albanians, and

24 then just as many when it comes to Serbs and the Roma and policemen,

25 soldiers, and so on and so forth. However, we have taken a set number of

Page 39094

1 cases and incidents by way of example to show you the kinds of cases we

2 had to deal with. For example, Belic Djordja in the tab I said, or Rizah

3 Alia, who was an Albanian -- the first man was a Serb -- or the Kuci

4 Skender case, or the killing of Djuka Adem and Djuka Bakir, they are all

5 Albanians, or the case of Sukaj Cerim, another Albanian, or Vasic Desimir,

6 a Serb. So we have taken a cross-section of cases including both Serbs

7 and Albanians. We also have the killing of six young men in the Panda

8 Cafe, which is contained in several of the tabs.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: I have to make the same comment as I made earlier:

10 I have difficulty seeing how this will assist me to determine whether

11 criminal acts were committed between the 1st of January and the 20th of

12 June, 1999.

13 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'm in the Court's hands as to whether the

14 accused presses on with this, but if he does, I'd be assisted by knowing

15 whether 20.1, which is dated apparently the 12th of January, 1998, is

16 something we should be cross referring to a sub-entry, as it were, in tab

17 2.3. I have may have completely misunderstood the potential for

18 connection, but in tab 2.3, the nearest I can get to the 12th of January

19 is number 10, which is the 12th or 13th of January, and so far I haven't

20 been able to pick up, I think, the -- the name Belic Djordja. So I'm a

21 little confused as to how these things correlate if at all.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] To clarify matters: We're not

23 talking about the links between tabs 2 and 3 and tab 20. What we're

24 talking about is placing the evidence before you that the police and the

25 investigating organs acted identically in cases when -- of Serb killings

Page 39095

1 or Albanian killings. They dealt with the cases in the same way. The

2 same documents were compiled, the same procedure followed, and there was

3 no difference, and this is a number of examples --

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Nice, the answer may lie in the fact that 2.3

5 deals only with cases in which Albanians were victims, and then we have

6 all these other tabs which deal with others. So it may be that this one

7 can be found in another of the summaries, I'm not sure.

8 MR. NICE: Yes, Your Honour, I'm grateful. I've been moving --

9 I'm grateful and I've been moving towards that inference myself. Thank

10 you.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: So, Mr. Milosevic, let me understand. You say

12 the significance of this evidence is that it shows that the police did not

13 discriminate against Albanians; they treated Albanians and Serbs equally.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Correct. And when it came -- in

15 cases of perpetrators and victims alike. That of course does not relate

16 to the entirety of the testimony but just the tabs that I've quoted. The

17 entirety of the testimony refers to the overall conduct of the police, the

18 alleged accusations of deportation, expulsions, and so on and so forth.

19 But when we're talking about investigations that were conducted pursuant

20 to crimes committed and conduct with the -- towards the perpetrators of

21 those crimes or the victims of those crimes, the police acted in equal

22 fashion both towards the Albanians and the Serbs.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: And what would you say in answer to Judge

24 Bonomy's query as to why 1998? Is that to show the history, that there

25 was a history of non-discriminatory treatment?

Page 39096

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The history of non-discriminatory

2 treatment can exist for decades prior to that, but if you take a look at

3 1998, for example, when there was no war, the police acted the same way

4 when it came to conducting an investigation of killings as it did during

5 the war. Quite simply, the police has no other way of conducting its

6 investigations and doing its job but acting in accordance with the law

7 governing internal affairs, on the basis of laws and provisions. It acts

8 the same way in wartime and in peacetime when it comes to treating the

9 perpetrators of crimes or the victims of crimes.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us try and conclude this part of the

11 evidence.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. Robinson, I believe that

13 these examples speak very tellingly of the facts mentioned by the witness,

14 namely equal treatment of Serbs and Albanians. That is why I ask that you

15 admit these tabs. Tab 20.1, 20.2, 20.3, 20.4, include documents related

16 to the killing of Djordja Belic. In tab 21, with all the subtabs, not to

17 read them all out, documents related to the killing of Desimir Vasic. In

18 tab 23 for the killing of Rizah Alia. In tab 28, the killing of Nazif

19 Basota. In tab 33, the killing of Dalibor Lazarevic. In tab 36, 7, 8, 9,

20 et cetera, policemen Radunovic Mirko and Prelevic Dejan. Is this the

21 incident that you referred to yesterday?

22 A. Yes, yes. What happened in Lloxha.

23 Q. All right. This tab is related to documenting the claims that the

24 colonel made in relation to what happened in Lloxha. The attack launched

25 by the KLA from Lloxha against the police and against Pec. Then there are

Page 39097

1 documents related to the abduction and killing of Srdjan Perovic and

2 Milorad Rajkovic. That is tab 36.

3 And further on with the subtabs. Then tab 37 is the killing of

4 Skender Kuci, or rather, Kuci Skender. And 37.1, 37.2, 37.3 --

5 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ... notice of it. I

6 notice that, in case the accused wants to make use of it, that there seems

7 to be something in English -- oh, sorry, 36.17, I think, but frankly I'm

8 just unable really to follow what's being advanced here.

9 The Chamber may want to have in mind that even if this material

10 was already translated, the conclusion that the material shows equality of

11 treatment between one ethnic group and another is something that would

12 have to be explained by the witness either from his own knowledge or in

13 some way acting as an expert, and it would not be a conclusion that the

14 Chamber could realistically expect me to deal with in cross-examination

15 without advance notice. So that for several reasons, one piled on the

16 other, this material cannot, in my submission, help the Chamber. Whether

17 there's anything that the accused can elicit from the witness other than

18 just listing the documents to go to make his point is a matter for him.

19 I'm not going to stand in his way. But as things stand, this is just

20 unmanageable material.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: At the moment he's listing the documents that he

22 would like us to admit, and so we'll hear that and consider that at the

23 end of the evidence.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I hope that both you

25 and Mr. Kwon remember full well how many times I was in this situation

Page 39098

1 that masses of documents were dealt with very rapidly, that a cart would

2 be brought in with bundles and bundles of documents, and I did not raise

3 such objections. After all, the weight of this evidence in terms of what

4 Mr. Nice delivered here is non-existent. So you will have to appreciate

5 all of that.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, just continue.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, I will dwell on tab 38. Tab

8 38 has to do with the killing of two Albanians, Djuka Adem and Djuka

9 Bakir. Please look at tab 38.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. In tab 38, we have three tabs, actually, that have to do with the

12 killing of Djuka Adem and Djuka Bakir. First there's a criminal report.

13 In tab 38.1 an Official Note, and in 38.2 information about everything

14 that happened.

15 Was that customary procedure in terms of establishing who the

16 perpetrators were, and is that the usual treatment of victims?

17 A. Yes. This is absolutely customary procedure. The criminal report

18 shows how we learned of this event, then the measures taken afterwards are

19 described. That is to say in the early morning hours Shabani Ramo

20 reported to the duty service of SUP Pec by telephone that on the

21 right-hand side of the local road between the village of Trebevic and Pec

22 two bodies were found.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Who were the perpetrators in this case?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We have a criminal report before us

25 and what we established. We did not find the perpetrators. They have not

Page 39099

1 been found. A great number of perpetrators of such criminal agents have

2 not about found. Perhaps we identified them in police terms, but we could

3 not take any action because they were inaccessible.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: In these examples that you're presenting to us, do

5 we have any specific cases, the papers for specific cases where a Serb was

6 established to be the perpetrator of the killing of an Albanian?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, I have to say that I

8 did not select these documents and bring them here. These documents --

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Could you just please answer the question I've

10 asked. Mr. Milosevic has a limited amount of time.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot say anything to you

12 off-the-cuff whether such cases are included here or not. I did not make

13 a selection of these cases.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Colonel, a few moments ago you said that you did not manage to

16 apprehend the perpetrators. Was it clear here that this was a terrorist

17 attack, that they were the victims of the KLA, these two Albanians?

18 A. It was absolutely clear to us, but we could not bring into custody

19 the perpetrators because they were not there.

20 Q. Do you know that these two killed persons had a brother, Xhafer,

21 who they slaughtered after KFOR came?

22 A. Well, these two were also killed on account of Xhafer Djuka.

23 That's the point.

24 This family, Djuka, they were what was termed "loyal Albanians."

25 Xhafer Djuka from that family was a high-ranking official in the

Page 39100

1 municipality, in the Executive Council of Kosovo and Metohija. They were

2 well known as loyal Albanians, and then the terrorists could not harm him

3 at that point in time, so they killed two members of his family. Later on

4 when they had the occasion, they killed him too.

5 Q. Xhafer Djuka was a member of the provisional executive council of

6 Kosovo and Metohija?

7 A. Well, yes, I think that was it.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Paponjak, have you ever been involved in the

9 investigation of a case where a Serb was shown, proved, to have killed an

10 Albanian?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not. I do not recall any such

12 cases, as a matter of fact.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. You talk about the territory of the municipality of Pec.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Rather, the SUP of Pec.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. All right. Please, what is contained in tab 40, because there is

19 quite a bit of documentation in tab 40. 40.1, 40.2, 40.3 referring to

20 unidentified corpses at Volujacka Cuka, and that is the basis for this

21 entire case. Please take a look at tab 40. There is also scene of crime

22 investigation documents from the village of Volujak.

23 What do you know about this case contained in tab 40?

24 A. It was established that the remains of a skull had been found, and

25 some bones, at a location called Volujacka Cuka. The on-site

Page 39101

1 investigation team went to the crime scene and established that a skull

2 and some bones were found. This was in a pit underneath a rock, about 20

3 metres deep, and the dimensions were 15 by 10. The remains of five

4 corpses were found there. That was the assumption.

5 Just before that, this locality was under the control of the

6 so-called KLA. After the terrain was deblocked, these remains were found

7 there. The human remains were sent for expertise. The expertise was

8 carried out. The case file was not closed. After that, a state of war

9 followed. The case file has not been closed yet, and just recently

10 members of the UNMIK police continued working on that location, and I

11 managed to read in the newspapers just a few days ago that about 20

12 corpses were found there.

13 Q. All right. Is this a Serb mass grave?

14 A. All the facts on the ground indicate that, but we did not manage

15 to identify the victims. We did not manage to find out who they were by

16 name.

17 There are several details that indicate that they were Serbs;

18 partly because of their clothing and partly because of some of their

19 bodily characteristics. Albanians and Muslims would be eliminated

20 therefore.

21 Q. All right. Colonel, please, in order to keep things as brief as

22 possible, we have an entire binder here -- rather, two binders, 5 and 6,

23 containing many documents pertaining to both Serbs and Albanians. They

24 are provided as examples of treatment of criminal acts involving loss of

25 life. And all of this is contained in your information and tables; is

Page 39102

1 that right?

2 A. Yes. And it can be noted with certainty that the procedure

3 applied was equal, equal in each and every particular case. Absolutely

4 the same. These are procedures that cannot be side-stepped or avoided

5 even if somebody wanted to do it.

6 Q. All right. Before we move on -- I will try to deal with Dubrava

7 immediately, but before we move on to Dubrava, I would like to go back to

8 the first binder again. Tab 2.4 contains information or, rather, a brief

9 about forced deportations of Albanians, their persecution on racial

10 grounds, and taking away their personal documents, their IDs.

11 Colonel, tell me now, how was this brief compiled, this brief

12 entitled "The forced deportations of Albanians, their persecution on

13 racial grounds," et cetera?

14 A. I already explained that these documents were categorised

15 according to a uniform methodology provided by the Ministry of the

16 Interior of the Republic of Serbia. One of the chapters here marked as

17 "ch" or "dj," I'm not sure exactly.

18 Q. "Dj," the letter "dj/III."

19 A. Forced deportations of Albanians, their persecution on racial

20 grounds and taking away their IDs. The SUP of Pec was entrusted with this

21 assignment.

22 Q. All right. The ministry asked you to provide all information

23 about forced deportations?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And then you provided the information you had?

Page 39103

1 A. Yes. We acted accordingly. We compiled all the information we

2 had and wrote this brief.

3 Q. And now I would like to ask you to read out what it says in this

4 brief of yours. I see that you signed this brief.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Please. So --

7 A. The title is "Brief on the forced deportations of Albanians, their

8 persecution on racial grounds, and taking away their identification

9 documents." That is the heading.

10 The information provided is not correct, and then what follows is

11 what was established. The members of the Verification Mission --

12 Q. All right. I don't know whether this was translated or not.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: We don't have a translation.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Would you want the

15 Colonel to read this out? It's only two pages.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, not all of it. Direct him to particular

17 passages which you consider to be significant.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Colonel, you have already explained that you had received a

20 request to provide all the information you had about the deportation of

21 Albanians, the exception of their IDs, et cetera.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So the conclusion of your secretariat from the people on the

24 ground is that these data are not correct. That is the point?

25 A. Yes. And then in this brief we go on to explain what we actually

Page 39104












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Page 39105

1 knew about this, and that's it.

2 Q. It says in paragraph 3 from below: "The culmination of all this

3 is the gathering of Albanians in the centre of Pec on the 27th of March,

4 1999, around 1000 hours, where individuals appealed to people to leave the

5 area of Pec. At the gathering point, they brought their vehicles, buses,

6 trucks, tractors, and freight vehicles. Great crowds formed, and normal

7 traffic was disabled. After the rally had finished, Albanians set off in

8 different directions in vehicles and on foot. These directions were Pec,

9 Kula, Montenegro, or Pec-Decani-Djakovica, in the direction of Albania, or

10 Pec-Pristina for those who were going to Macedonia."

11 A. Well, in the area where I was located, there was no traffic

12 allowed for buses, tractors or such. In the area where I was, there were

13 no such vehicles, no such traffic. It's possible this happened in some

14 other parts of town.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, the passage that you just read, we

16 have it translated that individuals appealed to people to leave the area

17 of Pec. So I wanted to ask Mr. Paponjak, who were these individuals

18 appealing to people to leave Pec?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not know that. I do not even

20 know the Albanian language, and I don't know the people who were talking.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Of what ethnicity were they?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I suppose they were Albanians,

23 because the Albanian language was the only language spoken there.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: So it was Albanians.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Serbs spoke Serbian. Serbian

Page 39106

1 was the official language. And generally speaking, a certain number of

2 Serbs knew the Albanian language but mostly Serbian was used as the

3 official language. Some of us didn't know any Albanian at all. I myself

4 know about ten words.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: This report was written by you and based on what

6 you saw.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. What I saw I have told you

8 today. I did sign this report, but the report was drafted by the

9 competent team who compiled this whole documentation. I will explain to

10 you the structure.

11 This team consists of heads of departments. The head of

12 department is something like a manager. We have sections for the

13 uniformed police, for the traffic police, crime investigation police.

14 Maybe I will forget some. We have sections for information, computers,

15 analysis. The chief of the secretariat only signs the report drafted by

16 this team. So I didn't personally write this report. It is my

17 subordinated heads of departments who are professionals in particular

18 lines of work, because somebody has to sign.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can you tell us on what information would the, as

20 I understand it, the head of the department who prepared the report, have

21 based the conclusions?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He would do that on the basis of

23 interviews with various people, with various policemen, various civilians,

24 based on operative sources, using all channels that the police normally

25 have for obtaining information. The sources vary in nature. They also

Page 39107

1 use Official Notes, official reports, interviews, and all this is cross

2 checked, double checked with operative sources.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Colonel, does this mean that within your Secretariat of the

5 Interior when this report was compiled many people were engaged from all

6 sections you have in the secretariat?

7 A. Absolutely. We engaged the best professionals who were available

8 at that time.

9 Q. People who were on the spot in Pec at the time.

10 A. Yes, people who are locals and who are working in the SUP of Pec.

11 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Paponjak, can I take it that the raw materials of

12 this -- for this information is kept in Pec? For example, the interviews

13 these people had with the people at the time.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This raw material, as you termed it

15 perfectly well, is at the secretariat there. This is only a compilation,

16 a summary of all this information.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I continue, Mr. Kwon?

18 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Can I point out to you that the raw materials

19 of this kind is much more important than the one you presented, which is

20 related to 1998 or something like that, because this is a direct answer to

21 your charges of the indictment.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In my mind, this is also material

23 from the ground because it comes from official bodies reporting from the

24 ground on the ongoing events.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. You may continue, Mr. Milosevic.

Page 39108

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Here on page 2 of this brief, it says: "Albanians moved in

3 whichever direction they wanted, and the police did not restrict their

4 movement. The police treated them professionally and correctly."

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. This group who filed the report noted this, and you confirmed it.

7 A. Yes, absolutely.

8 Q. The next paragraph is very short, only two lines. It says: "It

9 is typical that Albanians departed even from rural areas which the police

10 had not entered for a long time before." I repeat: "It is typical that

11 Albanians left even rural areas which the police had not entered for a

12 long time before."

13 The coverage of the territory by the police was only 10 to 15 per

14 cent.

15 A. Correct. This whole area was surrounded for the most part by the

16 KLA. Major settlements for the most part. They were under the absolute

17 control of the KLA.

18 Q. How can you then explain that Albanians left even the villages

19 which the police had not entered for a long time? They hadn't even shown

20 their faces there for a while. Why did these people go to Macedonia?

21 A. It may seem illogical to you, but it's perfectly clear to those of

22 us who were there. We all felt safer with them around rather than with

23 them gone. If they go, then we remain as a clear target. If a bomb

24 falls, we will be the only ones to be hit. So we actually wanted them to

25 stay.

Page 39109

1 Q. You say in this brief that the police did not restrict their

2 movement, that the police treated them professionally.

3 A. Well, we couldn't prevent them from going, but we didn't really

4 want them to go because if they leave, the territory would remain not only

5 ethnically pure, it would be professionally pure, because only the police

6 and the army would remain as a clear target. However, we couldn't

7 restrict their movement, and we couldn't prevent them from leaving because

8 we had no right. We would be exposing them to danger and death if we had.

9 Q. Then it goes on to say that: "In places where Albanians were

10 grouped, the police took measures of security to prevent crimes by

11 individuals or criminal groups, Banjica, Prekale, Djurakovac, Istok

12 municipality; and Glodjane, Pec municipality.

13 A. We did whatever we could to help them. We provided food and even

14 water in those areas where we had some control. I saw Banjica and

15 Djurakovac with my own eyes and I haven't been to Glodjane, I must say.

16 Q. It says here in paragraph 6 from the top: "Catholic Albanians did

17 not leave the territory. Instead, they remained where they were, in

18 Glodjane, Pec municipality; Djurakovac, Kos, Drenje, Istok municipality;

19 Zlokucane, Renovac, Leskovac, Budisavci and Stup, Klina municipality.

20 Their priests contacted with the police and required greater police

21 presence or more frequent police presence in areas populated by Catholics

22 in order to prevent the entry of terrorists into the village."

23 A. Catholic Albanians, and they were the majority population in these

24 areas, in these villages, did not support the so-called KLA in the

25 previous years. There were very few Catholic Albanians who joined the

Page 39110

1 KLA. And in the previous period, such as 1998, they physically abused and

2 exerted pressure on Catholic Albanians for these reasons. We have

3 supporting documentation for all of this. We have their statements and

4 reports. Not only from Catholic Albanians but also from Muslim Albanians.

5 Now, at this point, these people were still remaining in their

6 villages. They demanded police protection from the terrorists because

7 now, in the state of war, they could only expect greater torture, and the

8 police did provide them with this protection, and so did the army when the

9 army showed up later.

10 I talked to some people who were there, who had come from Cacak,

11 and they told me that the Catholics, the Catholic Albanians, had welcomed

12 them very cordially because they saw them as allies. And you can find any

13 number of such people in the former Yugoslavia.

14 Q. Very well, Colonel. In paragraph 4 from below, it says: "In its

15 activities, the police treated all citizens equally. It did not instigate

16 Albanian departures, nor did it carry out any maltreatment or abuse. The

17 police did not search houses, flats, or other premises to force Albanians

18 to leave their homes. It is true that in the preceding period, with a

19 view to suppressing crime, the police acted in a law-abiding way and

20 searched houses and premises of certain criminals regardless of their

21 ethnicity with a view to detecting criminals and incriminating objects.

22 The police did not, however, undertake such activities for at least 30

23 days prior to the departure of Albanians from the area," which implies

24 that the cause of their departure is not the action of the police.

25 A. Correct.

Page 39111

1 Q. Because it says here precisely that for at least 30 days --

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... combining

3 comment and question. It's not an acceptable mode of proceeding. What is

4 the question?

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Very well, Colonel. Did the police wish the Albanians to leave

7 that area or not?

8 A. No. Furthermore, the figure quoted here is 30 days. In actual

9 fact, we hadn't gone anywhere near their homes for perhaps two or three

10 months prior, and I'll explain the reasons.

11 After the arrival of the Verification Mission, we were required to

12 give advance notice to the Verification Mission of every action we

13 intended to take, and we did so through interpreters. We were stricken by

14 the fact that sometimes we would go into action, go to a house where we

15 knew we had good chances of finding a perpetrator or a weapon, and we

16 would find nothing. And we realised that in some way our information had

17 leaked to the perpetrator, who had enough time to run. So we did not have

18 any success in such cases, because the perpetrators obviously had received

19 some signals. I'm not saying that the verifiers notified the targets of

20 our actions, but there were many other peoples involved, such as

21 interpreters, who were, for the most part, Albanians.

22 Therefore, we gave up this sort of action, and we only proceeded

23 in cases where we received immediate reports of something that had just

24 happened.

25 Furthermore, we had absolutely no reason to want them to leave.

Page 39112

1 The police, as well as the army, wanted them to stay because it was in our

2 own interest. One of the basic --

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's time for the break. We'll take a break now

4 for 20 minutes.

5 --- Recess taken at 12.18 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 12.44 p.m.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Robinson.

9 Q. Just to complete the tab we were dealing with, 2.4. At the end of

10 the information or the report, it says, with respect to what you were

11 saying a moment ago, and I'm quoting the last paragraph on the penultimate

12 page: "It is quite certain that the police and most of the Serb citizens

13 did not wish the Albanians to leave the territory. With their departure,

14 many private firms were closed, the turnover of goods was decreased, and

15 the threat of bombing was greater. In all this, the staffs and the MUP

16 was informed on time and it was stated that legal measures exclusively

17 should be resorted to to secure and protect the people and their

18 property."

19 So when it says that it was ordered, what does that mean? The

20 orders were received by the MUP and the headquarters; is that right?

21 A. Yes. Dispatches were sent to us and they were distributed later

22 on and were sent to all the persons involved towards the different

23 departments and then the departments would send them on. So these orders

24 came from the ministry down to the MUP and the headquarters, and all the

25 employees were well-versed in the procedure which was in fact standard

Page 39113

1 procedure.

2 Q. Thank you, Colonel. Now, do you have an idea, since this refers

3 to the mass departure of Albanians from Kosovo and Metohija, from the

4 beginning of the bombing, do you have any idea and information about how

5 many Serbs left your area, left the area which was your area of

6 responsibility, Central Serbia and into Montenegro or further afield to

7 third countries?

8 A. I don't have any precise information about that or indeed for

9 Albanians after either, but a large number of Serbs also left. The women

10 and children left, and the elderly left, too, and the Serbs, military-able

11 men, stayed in the territory to protect Kosovo and Metohija and protect

12 their own property as well, and that should the need arise, to prevent the

13 entry of terrorists and terrorists storming their houses and exerting

14 violence. And if there were any NATO force aggression on land, to deal

15 with that too.

16 Q. Thank you. Now, let's dwell for a moment on this -- on the same

17 kind of information that you compiled for Albanians. You said that you

18 compiled reports, and that is found in tab 3, on crimes against Serbs and

19 Montenegrins, that a similar report or the same kind of report was

20 compiled.

21 A. Yes. That was drafted at a later period. The crimes against

22 Serbs were not incorporated in the first stage. We didn't deal with that.

23 But later on, we were asked to compile that kind of information, that is

24 to say crimes against Serbs, where the Serbs were the injured party, and

25 so we proceeded to compile information of that kind in the second stage of

Page 39114

1 our work.

2 Q. All right. Now, could you explain this to us: You were asked to

3 compile a report on damages against Albanians, crimes against Albanians

4 when? When was that? When were you asked to do that?

5 A. Well, I don't know when that was exactly but it was during the

6 first stage, in the first phase, in related incidents resulting in death

7 and then crimes against Albanians, to the detriment of Albanians, that is,

8 and all the rest of it. Then once we completed that job, then we were

9 asked to look at crimes against Serbs. And that can be clearly seen by

10 the fact that this chapter is B asterisk, so that was added subsequently

11 in the markings.

12 Q. Right. So you gave priority to crimes against Albanians, and when

13 you completed that task, you looked at crimes against Serbs.

14 A. Yes, that's right.

15 Q. Let's take a look at tab 3.1, now, please. I'm not going to dwell

16 on at that tab for too long. It gives us a review of the registered

17 crimes against Serbs, the number of crimes filed and registered. The

18 total number is 403. Where the perpetrators were known, it was 26 of

19 those cases, and perpetrators unknown in 377 cases. And here the ratio

20 between known and unknown perpetrators, when we come to crimes against

21 Serbs, is, as I can see, less favourable than in the case of Albanians.

22 A. Yes, that's correct, because the perpetrators were inaccessible to

23 us for the most part and we weren't able to solve the case or throw enough

24 light on the cases. And the structure of the crimes shows you what they

25 were about later on and why, what happened. So 320 crimes pursuant to

Page 39115

1 Articles 125 of the Criminal Code of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia,

2 which is terrorism. Those acts were committed, and terrorists don't act

3 publicly and openly, nor are they accessible to us, especially not to us

4 in Kosovo and Metohija at that time because they were organised in units

5 and they were just out of reach.

6 Now, of the 403 crimes committed, 320 were terrorist crimes,

7 crimes of terrorism, and all the rest, the other crimes, were in 83 cases.

8 Q. All right. So this is to be found in tab 3. Now, tab 4 is the

9 list of crimes against the Roma. Was that compiled and drafted along the

10 same lines, the same methodology used there?

11 A. Yes, but that was devised even later. That report was compiled

12 much later.

13 Q. And there, too, we have a very bad ratio between known and unknown

14 perpetrators. That is to say there were many more unknown perpetrators.

15 Out of 55 crimes, in 48 of the cases the crimes were crimes of terrorism;

16 is that right?

17 A. Yes. The Roma didn't even come to report crimes like that

18 immediately after the crimes had been committed, but later on we learnt

19 about these crimes, so we -- our information about that came subsequently,

20 post festum, after quite some time had gone by; several months or even

21 several years in some cases.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Paponjak, in these cases, or the statistics

23 you've given us, rather, do they cover all crimes committed in the area

24 either against Serbs in tab 2 or against Roma -- sorry, Serbs in tab 3, is

25 it, and against Roma in tab 4? It's all crimes?

Page 39116

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All crimes are included for which we

2 gained information either by the fact that the injured person came to

3 report them or in the line of duty or from anonymous callers or other

4 sources, operative links or whatever.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: And they are not confined to crimes allegedly

6 committed by Albanians.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: So we will see in there, will we, examples of Serbs

9 being found to be the perpetrators of these crimes, either against Serbs

10 or against Roma?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely correct.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We even have such examples on the

14 list here. We even have rapes perpetrated by policemen, and that is

15 shown.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. With the crimes you deal with here against Serbs and Montenegrins,

19 did you provide or have you provided -- I can't find it. All we have here

20 is -- well, let me see.

21 In the report in tab 3 relating to crimes of Serbs and

22 Montenegrins or, rather, against Serbs and Montenegrins, who the

23 perpetrators were ethnically speaking, the ethnic structure of the

24 perpetrators?

25 A. Yes, and you'll find that on page 2 of the report.

Page 39117












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Page 39118

1 Q. Can you find it for us, please, and quote, quote us some examples.

2 A. At the beginning of the first page it says 476 perpetrators of

3 crimes were uncovered. In Pec 75, in Istok 60, and in Klina, 341. The

4 largest number of perpetrators uncovered were the members of the so-called

5 KLA, 442 of them, who had committed crimes under Article 125 of the

6 Criminal Code of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. This figure of 442

7 relates to the perpetrators, not the number of crimes. And the other

8 perpetrators were civilians, 32 of those, and one member of the active or

9 reserve police force. And the ethnic break-up is the following: 454

10 Albanians and 22 were Serbs and Montenegrins.

11 MR. NICE: May be my oversight but I'm not following this. I'm

12 not sure --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Of 3, tab 3.

15 MR. NICE: Thank you. Oh, yes, I've found it.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the period from the 20th of June,

17 1999, to the 1st of June, 2001, only 99 criminal acts were registered, and

18 it is certain that that wasn't the final number because we do not have

19 knowledge of all crimes perpetrated. By simple comparison without any

20 detailed analysis, we arrive at very interesting conclusions on the degree

21 of jeopardy that national communities were under, or ethnic communities

22 were under. Of the 1.282 [as interpreted] crimes committed in the region

23 of the SUP of Pec - and I'll skip the figures how many in Pec, how many in

24 Klina - of the 1.289 crimes committed in the Pec area, 303 were committed

25 against Albanians. That comes under tab B. 403 were committed against

Page 39119

1 Serbs and Montenegrins; and as to the other crimes, they were crimes

2 against property, either state owned, socially owned, or against those

3 owned by other ethnic groups. With respect to the number of inhabitants,

4 the Albanian community figure in around 85 per cent of the cases, and only

5 23 per cent of those are crimes committed.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That will do, thank you.

7 But I don't think I have to emphasise, Mr. Robinson, that I would

8 like to have these exhibits admitted into evidence. They have been done

9 very systematically, and each of these documents contains a list of the

10 crimes committed with the names of the perpetrators and are therefore

11 official documents which have been signed and stamped.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: It's a pity that that question wasn't actually

13 answered. The question was the ethnic make-up or composition of the

14 perpetrators. I don't think you dealt with that at all.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I thought that the question had been

16 answered.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 476 perpetrators were uncovered, of

18 crimes. That is stated at the top of the page, first paragraph. 75 in

19 Pec, 60 in Istok, and Klina, 341. The largest number of criminal

20 perpetrators were belonging -- belonged to the KLA, 424, who had committed

21 crimes under Article 125 of the Criminal Code of Yugoslavia, and the other

22 perpetrators were civilians, 32 of those, and one member of the active or

23 reserve police force. And the ethnic structure was as follows --

24 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues]... all right.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The ethnic structure was as follows:

Page 39120

1 454 were Albanians, and 22 were Serbs and Montenegrins.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Thank you, Colonel. Now, do you have similar information for

5 crimes against the Roma?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. Who were the perpetrators and the ethnic structure of them?

8 A. There were even less Serbs and Montenegrins in crimes against

9 Roma. For the most part the perpetrators were Albanians.

10 Q. And following the same methodology, you compiled a document that

11 is found in tab 5, a list of terrorist acts against the police force,

12 members of the police. And a list is provided there of all the crimes

13 committed where the subject of attack were policemen.

14 A. Yes, that's right. But let me explain that that wasn't done

15 pursuant to orders from MUP. That was done pursuant to my own orders, at

16 my request, because I was interested in having all the attacks against the

17 police compiled in one document, in one place. And I don't think that

18 you'll find information like that in other secretariats. If the chief of

19 SUP wasn't interested in things like that, then you won't find them there.

20 Q. All right. Now, information about all the previous tabs must

21 exist in other SUP archives too.

22 A. Yes. And in the Ministry of the Interior, a copy of all these

23 files and cases and documents, a complete dossier, a complete file for

24 Kosovo and Metohija, a general one exists at the ministry which is a

25 collection of all the files of the individual Secretariats of the Interior

Page 39121

1 in Kosovo and Metohija, and in each secretariat you will have the files

2 for that particular area.

3 Q. Thank you, Colonel. Now, in tab 6, you provided with us a

4 document which relates to abducted persons and missing persons as of the

5 1st of January, 1998.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And then you have 6.1, 2, 3, 4, 5. So it's very comprehensive.

8 Could you tell us, please, just briefly, about these documents

9 relating to abducted and missing persons.

10 A. This area of our work and expertise will be something that will

11 have -- will be ongoing for a long time to come, because there are many

12 people who have been listed as missing, Serbs and Albanians alike, whose

13 fate we don't know about. The Ministry of the Interior or, rather, at the

14 level of the federal organs, it's difficult for me to keep track of all

15 the names of the different states and communities, the community of Serbia

16 and Montenegro, there there's a commission set up for persons missing, and

17 there's a commission like that in Kosovo and Metohija. Now we have

18 started to pool our efforts in that respect and work together. And all

19 the events that took place in 1998 and 1999, a lot of people went missing

20 of all ethnic groups; both Serbs, Montenegrins, Albanians, Roma, et

21 cetera.

22 The largest number of abductions, if not all of the abductions,

23 are a form of terrorist activity on the part of the Albanian extremists,

24 and their goal was to instil fear and insecurity in the population, to

25 create a mood in which nobody could see their future in Kosovo and

Page 39122

1 Metohija. Also, their movements were limited. Morale was low, to lower

2 the morale of the citizens and the police. And they wanted many Albanians

3 to join the KLA and to set aside resources to fund the KLA.

4 MR. NICE: The witness is now giving the most general conclusions.

5 We've already established that their reports are based on the work of

6 others, not on his own work. It may be helpful to know that, rather than

7 having to return to all these points in cross-examination, that when he

8 says things like this he's speaking from his own experience, and if so

9 what, or alternatively, on the basis of others. I can't see it obviously

10 in the reports.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm minded to say, Mr. Nice --

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ...

14 cross-examination, but I'll ask the witness: The information you just

15 gave, is that based on your own knowledge or did you gather that from

16 other sources?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Part of this comes from my own

18 knowledge, and another part was compiled on the basis of documents

19 analysed, such as the report on the missing persons. Under this there are

20 specific case files. Part of this is the result of the work of the

21 working group. I was part of that working group, and certainly I had a

22 contribution to the work of the working group as well as other team

23 members who provided their own contributions. And included is the

24 material also from specific case files. This report does not reflect the

25 personal position of any particular individual. It is the result of work

Page 39123

1 of the working group, consisting of professionals who had specific case

2 files to work with.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: You have said, Mr. Paponjak, that the goal of the

4 KLA, the extremists, was to instil fear and insecurity, but I had gathered

5 that their main goal was independence.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is the ultimate goal. But the

7 objective of abductions of which I have just spoken, they worked along

8 many lines, but I was just trying to explain why they abducted people.

9 If you have an area from which both Serbs and Albanians and Roma

10 and others are disappearing, vanishing into thin air and nobody knows what

11 happened to them, a general feeling of insecurity is created. People do

12 not dare to leave their homes. For instance, they announce that after

13 1400 hours, children coming from school will be abducted. So people don't

14 send children to school and they lock themselves up in their homes. This

15 is the general atmosphere of fear created.

16 And after that, precisely for this reason, many Serbs and many

17 Albanians left Kosovo altogether. I know this because even my own

18 policemen, my own subordinates, as far as back as 1998, asked me for leave

19 in order to take their families away. I don't know what else I can tell

20 you about this.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] At the very beginning, we

24 established that this witness is testifying both on the basis of his

25 direct knowledge and on the basis of facts and documents that were

Page 39124

1 available to him ex officio in the position in which he occupied. So if

2 we have before us the chief of the Secretariat of the Interior, which

3 covers several municipalities, it is his duty to have information coming

4 from the entire area. He is in his job receiving reports, receiving

5 information, and in certain instances he was personally present when

6 certain incidents took place, such as the day when masses of citizens

7 flooded the centre of Pec. But he is also presenting to you the work

8 product of teams of policemen who are working under his leadership.


10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know in which other way I

11 could present this evidence. He, as the leader of this team and direct

12 participant in the work, is testifying to the work product.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think Mr. Nice's concern was to ascertain how

14 he gathered that specific piece of information, and he has answered, yes.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. This part about abductions we have clarified enough, I hope. In

18 tab 7, you have information about events related to and the consequences

19 of NATO bombing in the territory of SUP Pec from the 23rd of March to the

20 10th of June, 1999.

21 This document enumerates all these incidents. Does it cover all

22 the incidents, in fact?

23 A. Yes. Correct. This information was compiled according to the

24 same methodology. It contains the textual part as well as tables and a

25 list of all the incidents that occurred as a result of NATO bombing on the

Page 39125

1 territory of our secretariat.

2 In the area of the Secretariat of the Interior of Pec, the NATO

3 alliance made a total of 97 airstrikes; 47 in Pec, 31 in Klina, and 19 in

4 Istok. These airstrikes were made at different hours, with a surprise

5 effect; 74 in daytime, 23 in night-time. All of these incidents caused

6 deaths, casualties, created fear and concern among the citizens for their

7 own lives and property, mass departure of all the citizens, including

8 Albanians, and restricted the movements of all citizens.

9 Targets of bombing: 36 military --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please say from what he's

11 reading, give us a reference.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. From the data you are reading, we see that there were more

14 civilian targets that were bombed than military targets.

15 A. Correct.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: From what are you reading? Is it a document

17 which we have or another? Is it tab 7? Tab 7.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is tab 7.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Brief on incidents related to and

20 consequences of NATO bombing on the territory of the secretariat of Pec."

21 It is marked J/III. It is now on the ELMO as well.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Mr. Milosevic.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Colonel --

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, Mr. Robinson, bear in mind

Page 39126

1 that I want this entire tab exhibited, obviously because we have no time

2 to go into all the details. I heard when the witness mentioned the number

3 of airstrikes, and I just asked him whether there were more civilian or

4 military police targets, and the answer was that there were more civilian

5 targets hit.

6 I therefore submit the request that this tab be exhibited, among

7 others, because it also relates to official documents.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I'm becoming concerned now about

9 the length of your examination-in-chief. You had scheduled this witness

10 for five hours, but we have gone well beyond that. This is the end of the

11 second day. You will conclude -- you will conclude --

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Quite correct.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- your examination-in-chief today.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't think so. I am also

15 concerned that it's taking long, but unfortunately there is a lot of

16 material. However, this material could be the subject of testimony of 20

17 or 30 witnesses, so by dealing with it in this way, I'm actually saving

18 time, especially when it comes to official documents that provide direct

19 insight into the facts testified to by this witness.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... conducted it

21 in that way. Nonetheless, let's move on.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, Mr. Robinson.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Colonel, in tab 8, we have information about airstrikes by the

25 NATO on the correctional centre of Dubrava in Istok. This is a brief on

Page 39127

1 the airstrikes effected on the 19th, 21st, and 24th of May, 1999. And the

2 title goes on to say, "... causing death and great material damage." This

3 is tab number 8, and I kindly request that we take just a brief look at

4 it.

5 So, Colonel, where exactly is this correctional centre?

6 A. The Dubrava correctional centre is in the village of Dubrava, east

7 of Istok, three or four kilometres away.

8 Q. We will just deal with a few brief questions. How many prisoners

9 were there in May 1999?

10 A. The precise figure is 1.004.

11 Q. What type of prisoners were there?

12 A. Persons who were arrested, detained, charged, or convicted for the

13 most grievous crimes committed in that period; terrorism, association for

14 the purpose of engaging in hostile activity, murders, and other grave

15 crimes.

16 Q. Well, where were the prisoners accommodated?

17 A. In pavilions, the so-called residential pavilions, within the

18 perimeter of the detention centre, the correctional centre, which is

19 fenced in by a wall.

20 Q. In other words, just like a prison.

21 A. It has an open part and a closed-in part, but all the prisoners

22 were in the fenced-in part.

23 Q. Very well. Did this correctional centre have security provided by

24 the MUP, by policemen?

25 A. Policemen did not guard this correctional centre because the

Page 39128

1 security and the enforcement of prison sentences is in the competence of

2 the Ministry of Justice. However, the Ministry of the Interior kept the

3 correctional centre under close attention in view of the fact that it

4 contained a lot of persons who were of great interest to us, from the

5 security point of view, as well as a great number of terrorists. And we

6 thought that in the circumstances of the NATO aggression and the bombing,

7 they might try to break out and release their own people, or the

8 terrorists might attack in order to release their own people. So we

9 conducted surveillance to see if there were any movements of terrorists

10 toward the prison to release their own members.

11 Q. I understand that, but my question was actually geared to find out

12 whether the police were guarding the prisoners or did the prison have its

13 own security guards who were under -- who were in the employment of the

14 Ministry of Justice?

15 A. The latter.

16 Q. And you did not have access to the inside of the prison?

17 A. No, we didn't.

18 Q. Do you have any direct knowledge about the events that happened at

19 the Dubrava prison from the 19th to the 24th of May? Do you have direct

20 knowledge? That's my question.

21 A. I have direct, firsthand knowledge, because in certain instances

22 during those days I was on the spot at the correctional centre of Dubrava.

23 For instance, on the 19th of May.

24 Q. When did NATO make its first airstrike on the Dubrava prison?

25 A. The 19th of May.

Page 39129

1 Q. You mean the day when you were there. Did you arrive just after

2 the airstrike or were you there during the airstrike?

3 A. I arrived as soon as I found out about the airstrike, together

4 with some other policemen. We came in order to take all the steps that it

5 was our duty to take, and we proceeded accordingly.

6 Q. That is consistent with what you told us earlier about police

7 procedure in case of airstrike; you would immediately go on the site, and

8 you did the same in this case?

9 A. We did.

10 Q. How many persons were killed on that first occasion, during the

11 first airstrike on the 19th of May?

12 A. Three convicts. Three convicts whom we identified; Abdulah

13 Tahiri --

14 Q. Don't read any names now. We won't go into detail. On that

15 occasion you identified three casualties. Is it possible that there were

16 more casualties on that first day?

17 A. It was not impossible to establish the exact number that first

18 day.

19 Q. How many persons were wounded that day that you established?

20 A. Five; two guards and three convicts, three inmates.

21 Q. Were they given medical assistance?

22 A. They were first taken to the medical centre in Istok, and after

23 that, to the hospital in Pec.

24 Q. We are now talking only about the 19th of May.

25 A. Yes, between 1400 and 1500 hours on the 19th of May.

Page 39130












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 39131

1 Q. Was there any on-site investigation then?

2 A. Yes. It was done that day.

3 Q. Who did the on-site investigation, and who attended it?

4 A. Since this event was immediately notified to all the competent

5 authorities, the investigating judge from Pec failed to come, but the

6 investigating judge from the district court in Pec came and the president

7 of the district court came.

8 Q. Was there any video and audio recording?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Who did that?

11 A. Stills and video recordings were made by scene-of-crime officers

12 of the police section of the SUP Pec.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender a recording

14 from tab 50. That is only the part that refers to the 19th of May. I

15 hope that Professor Rakic has made all the arrangements for this recording

16 to be played, and after that I would like the witness to comment. After

17 that commentary, we will see recordings from the 21st of May and another

18 clip from the 24th of May.

19 MR. NICE: Unless the accused has made arrangements to reduce the

20 time that these videos take, I think they're about two hours altogether.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is that so, Mr. Milosevic? Is the length of this

22 video two hours?

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The total length is 1 hour, 50

24 minutes, Mr. Robinson, but I wished to ask them to be played in fast

25 forward, because that is a possibility. Plus, we have a transcript which

Page 39132

1 has been provided to the interpreters --

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is this a video of?

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This video, as the witness just

4 explained, is part of the official documentation from the on-site

5 investigation. Would you please bear in mind here that Mr. Nice had

6 brought several witnesses speaking to the same event, the event in

7 Dubrava, and spoke about it completely inaccurately. This video recording

8 could replace many witnesses, and I hope you understand it relates to a

9 specific charge in the indictment, that is para 66(k).

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I know 66(k), but I don't understand why I

11 have to suffer a video of one hour.

12 I'll consult with my colleagues.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just before you confer, please. I

14 also had a problem of time. This recording, when fast forwarded, shows

15 quite enough, although without sound. And when it's fast forwarded, you

16 can see it all within 12 minutes, and you can see the ruins, the debris,

17 people buried under the debris, their hands and feet sticking out. You

18 can see the effect of the bombing, the casualties, people killed. And the

19 recording, once it becomes an exhibit, is available to anybody who wants

20 to see it later. It is, however, a recording made directly on the spot

21 during the on-site investigation. It is not a photo montage. That is its

22 precise value.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ...

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, the videotape will establish,

25 in addition to the testimony of this witness, and I hope the testimony of

Page 39133

1 other witnesses, too, that what it says here in this charge, in paragraph

2 (k), is incorrect, because, Mr. Robinson, what has been written here is

3 this, that hundreds of prisoners were taken out and executed by some sort

4 of forces who were there, and you will be able to see from the documents

5 and the facts that there was large-scale bombing, that people were killed

6 as a result of the bombing, and that what it says, therefore, in the

7 indictment is absurd, is an absurdity.

8 And I would just like to ask you to bear in mind one thing: A

9 moment ago the witness said that there were 1.000 prisoners. There is

10 material evidence showing that over 750 were evacuated into another

11 prison, that several dozen were hospitalised who were wounded, that almost

12 a hundred were killed. Now, imagine, Mr. Robinson, somebody executing a

13 thousand prisoners and then taking the wounded and injured to the hospital

14 and 80 per cent sent to other prisons, et cetera, et cetera.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. The question which I asked which is

16 not in the transcript was what will be established by the video that is

17 not otherwise established, and it is to that that Mr. Milosevic replied.

18 I'll consult with my colleagues.

19 JUDGE KWON: If you could assist us further. The indictment

20 against you alleges that killing happened on 22nd and 23rd, but this video

21 refers to 19th. So what can be established by this video in relation to

22 the indictment charges?

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, what can be established is

24 this: That the allegations in the indictment are not correct, because

25 from the videotape you can see that there was bombing on the 19th and that

Page 39134

1 there were dead already on the 19th, and there you have a videotape which

2 relates to the 21st of May, which was filmed on 21st of May where you can

3 see likewise the consequences. And then there's another tape made on the

4 24th of May, and the tape is always -- you always film after the bombing.

5 The bombing went on from the 19th, I think, to the 24th or 25th, for

6 several days, successive days.

7 JUDGE KWON: But either video does not say anything whether there

8 was a killing on 22nd and 23rd. Is it right?

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, of the course it speaks about

10 killings, we can see that the killings resulted as the NATO bombing of the

11 prison whereas something quite different, quite absurd, is being alleged

12 here in the indictment.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Fast forward, 12 minutes, so

15 we'll finish just before the break.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. But with the proviso

17 that we don't see all 12 minutes at once, that we can take a look at the

18 19th of May, first and have the witness tell us something about that,

19 because he was there on that day, immediately after the attack. He left

20 after it. And then we can take a look at the 21st of May and the third

21 part afterwards, the 24th of May one.

22 So the filming always take place after the event. There is an

23 investigation, and then the tape, the footage, is part of the

24 investigative process and documents.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 39135

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, yes.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Let's have the tape

3 played, please.

4 [Videotape played]

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You can clearly see the date there,

6 it is 16.03, 19.5.1999. 16.03 is the time. That's on the 19th.

7 You can see enormous holes, apertures on the roofs of buildings,

8 the rubble, the debris. All the windows were blasted.

9 There's smoke coming out of the building and the one opposite.

10 All that is the 19th.

11 You can see the traces of shrapnel, of bombs that exploded in

12 front. That's quite obvious too.

13 And these are the prison premises. You can see the bars. The

14 pavilions with the prisoners were directly hit.

15 The staircase and stairwell is destroyed.

16 That is footage of the unfortunate people.

17 In this indictment, the man who can be seen here was allegedly

18 executed by the police.

19 He's missing half his head. You can see the knee protruding of

20 one of the other people buried under the rubble. There's part of an arm

21 here, or hand, of one of the other unfortunate people.

22 You can see the dormitories.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With this fast forward we seem to be

24 losing quite a lot of the important elements. We don't have the volume,

25 sound, and what we have been talking about, the fleeing of the prisoners

Page 39136

1 from the premises and the way in which they were doing this.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Yes. You can see that they tried to break down the door in their

4 panic during the bombing.

5 A. That's right. And as I know this videotape, the soundtrack says

6 how they tried to do this, and the crime technicians tried to show that.

7 They used crowbars.

8 Q. You can see the crowbars here, the levers and the forced door.

9 A. I hope that at least that portion has been translated.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Corpses once again.

11 Take a look at this. This person is missing a head.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Faster forward. There is nothing gained from

13 showing us these ghastly pictures.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is part of a bomb. You can see

15 the serial number even here.

16 MR. NICE: The Chamber will probably recall and might be assisted

17 to be reminded that of course there is no challenge to the fact that there

18 was NATO bombing both on the 19th and the 21st of May, and I can provide

19 details of the number of sorties and the number of bombs, if asked.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

21 JUDGE KWON: The number of casualties would be different.

22 MR. NICE: Yes. That's a matter of evidence, because after all --

23 well, it's all a matter of evidence, but information as to the number of

24 -- the dates and number of sorties and number of bombs comes from NATO and

25 it's not -- it's still a matter of evidence but it's somewhat clearer than

Page 39137

1 -- clear evidence, if you want it.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, gentlemen, would you

3 please bear in mind the fact that in attachment J, Schedule J, as it says

4 in paragraph (k), you have a list of those allegedly executed, and there

5 are 26 on that list. Our organs established over 90 killed in the bombing

6 in Istok.

7 And we're now going to follow that up.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Colonel, can you just give us your brief comments of the footage

10 we've just seen.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, Mr. Milosevic. There are several matters.

12 One is a question -- the first one is a question of timing, because we

13 have to adjourn now. And when we resume, I'd like to have specific

14 questions put to the witness rather than to ask him to comment generally.

15 Specific questions about the matters that are at issue.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: We have another matter scheduled for hearing

18 tomorrow morning starting at 9.00, but the parties are to be ready --

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That was yesterday.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- the parties are to be here in the event that we

21 are able to start this case at 10.00. So the parties should be here in

22 readiness to recommence the hearing at 10.00. There is no certainty that

23 this will take place, but the parties are to be here and to stand in

24 readiness.

25 We are adjourned until tomorrow.

Page 39138

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson. Mr. Robinson.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is it certain that we won't begin

4 before 10.00? Is that a certainty?

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: That may not be -- that may not be a certainty.

6 But you don't need to be here until 10.00.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's all I wanted to know. Thank

8 you.

9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

10 1.46 p.m. sine die.