Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9290

1 Wednesday, 22 June 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I see that you have complied with

7 the Trial Chamber's order in respect of the addition to the exhibit list

8 of a vast number of documents. You say that the documents were obtained

9 in respect of Mr. Delic's testimony.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm listening to the appropriate

11 channel, but I'm not receiving any interpretation, and I don't know if the

12 witness is receiving it either.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can we try again? Is it working now? Is the

14 witness hearing me? Yes.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, I can't hear anything.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, let's try again. Are you hearing?

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear interpretation now

18 on channel 6. Yes, that's fine.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: I was saying, Mr. Milosevic, that I see you have

20 complied with --

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. I heard what you said,

22 Mr. Robinson. I just wanted to point out that I wasn't receiving the

23 interpretation.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: I was saying, more specifically, that in your --

25 in your written application you say that the documents for Mr. Delic's

Page 9291

1 testimony were obtained not earlier than the second half of 2004. I'd

2 like more specific information as to what -- what month in 2004 you

3 obtained these documents.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All of that information was provided

5 to you by my associates, who know exactly when they received the

6 documents. As you are aware, I'm not able to procure any documents

7 myself. They said that the documents were obtained in the second half of

8 the year. I know that sometime in the fall of 2004, as I was told, those

9 documents started arriving one after the other.

10 As for the documents that we are dealing with now, I'd like to

11 tell you that the service which provided the documents provided them with

12 respect to a particular witness. Therefore, they provided the portion of

13 the document which pertains to the area of responsibility of General

14 Delic. This is why other segments are not there, just the ones that

15 pertain to the area of responsibility of General Delic.

16 When we have another witness come here to testify, another witness

17 that has a different area of responsibility, I assume we would receive

18 other parts of this document or some other documents.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you must take responsibility for

20 what happens in relation to your case, and it is not sufficient merely to

21 say that your associates know. You must know.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Nice, perhaps you could assist me. I have the

23 impression, but it may be a wrong impression, that during the Prosecution

24 case there were documents presented which were not necessarily within the

25 65 ter list. Is that --

Page 9292

1 MR. NICE: Absolutely the case, yes.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: And did you make applications in this form for

3 these to be added to the list?

4 MR. NICE: I think typically not. Sometimes, yes, but the

5 position is that there was nothing like a wholesale provision of material

6 outside the 65 ter list. Our 65 ter list did the best we could at the

7 time to provide all the documents. As other documents came in, we

8 sometimes gave specific notice and sought specific request. Sometimes the

9 documents arrived at the last minute, and we've always accepted that in

10 our submissions about the accused's provision of material late.

11 We always disclosed material that was not on the 65 ter list as

12 soon as it was available to us and as soon as we knew we had any intention

13 of using it. And of course that was in a regime where the accused was not

14 only provided with the 65 ter list and the 65 ter material as a general

15 provision, but he was provided in advance of witnesses testifying

16 specifically with the materials that we expected to relate to that

17 particular witness.

18 So that although, yes, there were some documents provided late and

19 outside the list, we did everything we could to comply with the

20 requirements of the Rules, and we did not provide material of this

21 quantity and on this basis.

22 And I should, perhaps in respect of what the accused has said and

23 of his filing, draw to the Court's attention this: If there were indeed

24 10.400 documents and videotapes, as paragraph 5 -- 3(A) suggests, and if

25 as paragraph 3(B) suggests, this documentation comes from archives but

Page 9293

1 also from the library or archive of this witness himself and, as is

2 suggested by various members of the VJ acting presumably on request from

3 the witness or the associates, and they providing documents from their own

4 archives, I must make this observation: It's highly likely that many of

5 these documents of the 10.000 from these various sources, 10.000-odd from

6 these various sources, are documents that we would have sought

7 unsuccessfully by RFAs over the last several years. It of course isn't

8 possible either yet to say in respect of the 600 documents produced

9 whether they would have been covered by RFAs that haven't been answered,

10 it's not a priority exercise, but it's highly probable, but it's almost

11 certain that this large volume of material from which the accused has been

12 able to draw includes documents we would have wanted to see. And it would

13 have been entirely open to him, if what he says yesterday about holding

14 nothing back, it would have been open to him to tell us he got 10.000-odd

15 documents from which he would be making a selection, that coming from

16 various sources, and we could have a look at all of them. He is not

17 obliged to do that, but if he's got problems with his 65 ter filings

18 because he would know that he's not in a position to make the final

19 selection but he knows he's got a big library, it would have been open to

20 him to do that. In the event, we were simply provided with the material

21 last week and there was no question of it being provided before and I have

22 to, unfortunately, say this: Ms. Dicklich is regularly making requests

23 for material, aware of the problems that we will face, and she has been

24 told specifically that material cannot be provided until the accused gives

25 the final word approving its passage to us. So that if there is a bulk

Page 9294

1 provision to Registry, I can't remember what it was said, a couple of

2 months ago, April or something like that, or May, that could have been

3 provided to us but it wasn't. So there we are. That's the best I can

4 help you with in these difficult circumstances.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Yes. The problem for me, Mr. Nice, is that there's

6 -- I suppose the principal issue here is the interests of justice.

7 MR. NICE: Of course.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: And wholesale exclusion of this material would not

9 really be conducive to reaching a proper verdict in this case, would it?

10 MR. NICE: No, Your Honour. And I made it clear yesterday when I

11 drew to your attention the problems we were facing that there were

12 documents within the collection already provided that we would want to

13 rely on, and of course I have in mind Your Honour's concern.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: It's extremely frustrating that this sort of

15 application which has been made is wholly inadequate. It doesn't give any

16 clear indication of when these documents came, the circumstances in which

17 they came, and yet the application quite rightly says there is an issue of

18 -- in relation to the interests of justice.

19 The Rules are flagrantly broken because there is a clear rule that

20 exhibits have to be served by the Defence on the Prosecutor. There's no

21 question of handing them in to the Registry and leaving it to the Registry

22 to deal with, as was so blithely said by Mr. Milosevic yesterday. He has

23 that obligation. These documents should have been passed on at a much

24 earlier date.

25 So while it may be that we have to accept the frustration that

Page 9295

1 goes with this inadequate presentation of a case in the interests of

2 justice, perhaps we can do something to try to avoid it being repeated.

3 MR. NICE: Can I come back to that point in just a second when I

4 make one other intervening -- intermediate point. The intermediate point

5 is this: That there's a really serious knock-on effect of the accused's

6 elected, chosen method of presenting his case. By presenting material of

7 this quantity in this way, he renders it impossible for us to agree

8 matters in advance. Had he pursued a policy of using 89(F) or using

9 reports of one kind or another, producing voluminous documentation, as he

10 has been repeatedly effectively invited to do by the Court, then subject

11 to my having an increase in resources available to me - but I'm confident

12 I might have been able to achieve that - we could have worked on the

13 materials in advance and agreed whatever there was capable of agreement

14 and that would have made more time available to the accused for the

15 presentation of his case overall. By bringing this material in in this

16 way, he takes the period of time that he does with witnesses like

17 Stevanovic and no doubt now with this witness and will no doubt then be

18 praying in aid the time taken when he makes an application for extension

19 of 150 days, which he's told us he's going to do. And the Chamber will in

20 due course be put in the position of having to make the hard decision

21 between saying the consequences being faced by the accused so far as

22 timetable are concerned are of his own making in part by reason of his

23 delayed presentation of documents.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, he's chosen not to use the resources that are

25 plainly necessary for the present -- the adequate presentation of a case

Page 9296

1 of this nature and will have to bear responsibility for that in due

2 course, whatever that responsibility may turn out to be. But I'm more

3 concerned to see if there is a way of improving the situation for the

4 future because it may come to it that we have to exclude documents in

5 their entirety in relation to witnesses because otherwise the proper

6 presentation of the case is hampered and indeed the interests of justice

7 are prejudiced by the way in which the documents are handed in or

8 presented inadequately.

9 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I agree with that, and although I've got

10 one my one last point to make in answer to Your Honour's earlier and my

11 repeated observation, the interest of justice point is this: We find

12 witnesses like, for example, Jasovic or Stevanovic leaving The Hague with

13 a large proportion of their documents still untranslated, and although I

14 have some resources available to provide draft translations, that does not

15 enable me adequately to assist the Court in relation to cross-examination

16 of relevant materials.

17 The immediate problem is most likely next to arise, or a similar

18 form of problem is most likely next to arise with Momir Bulatovic. Now,

19 apparently there are a thousand documents or more coming in - we don't

20 know - a huge number. Apparently, from what I've heard, some of them

21 being records of sessions, and I don't know what sessions they are, which

22 are unknown to us, so they're likely to be very substantial documents.

23 We've been pressing for their provision, and as a result of yesterday's

24 hearing, we are at least told today, because Ms. Dicklich has spoken

25 directly to the accused's associate who, of course, is outside Court but

Page 9297

1 who we were able to catch briefly this morning before the session started

2 when he was pushing the trolley in, I think, and he confirms that there

3 will be a CD provided this afternoon.

4 Now, of course, CDs of this kind come without any order of the

5 documents, and it's very difficult for us to connect them later with any

6 tabbed versions, but it's better than nothing. So we may get some

7 Bulatovic documents sometime today, but that is going to be a really

8 seriously difficult document provision exercise for us to deal with.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: There is one matter I'd like to raise. If the

10 629 documents which are being produced include documents in respect of

11 which the Prosecutor had made an application for them to be produced and

12 in respect of which the Chamber made an order under -- under Rule 54 bis,

13 I think that's a very serious matter for the -- not so much for the

14 accused but for the Serbian government, because in my view it implicates

15 the state responsibility --

16 MR. NICE: Well, Your Honour --

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- of the Serbian government.

18 MR. NICE: It would be a serious matter. Connecting the documents

19 with the requests and the orders is a labour intensive exercise which has

20 to come second to dealing with the material in Court, but we will turn to

21 it.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm most interested in the comment that you made

23 that Ms. Dicklich has been told that material cannot be provided until the

24 accused approves. That's by -- I don't know -- I'm not quite sure what

25 context exactly.

Page 9298

1 MR. NICE: Up and until the last witness, Jasovic, and up and

2 until this witness, we've been told that material can't be handed over

3 until it's finally approved by the accused. So that the accused says

4 yesterday no, that's not true. He says there's never been any final

5 interdiction by him on the provision of material, but we've been regularly

6 asking for material and we've regularly met that response.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I think the Serbian government must

8 appreciate that an issue of their state responsibility, of state

9 responsibility might arise if they do not -- if they have not produced

10 documents in respect of which this Chamber made an order and the documents

11 are very readily available.

12 That's not a matter for Mr. Milosevic.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll grant the application. Judge Bonomy,

16 however, wishes to bring something else to the attention of Mr. Milosevic.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Milosevic, I want to emphasise to you something

18 that you ought to be well aware of, which is the terms of Rule 65 ter,

19 paragraph (G)(ii), which relates to exhibit lists and says that along with

20 the exhibit list which you produced close to a year ago now, the Defence

21 is bound to serve on the Prosecutor, directly on the Prosecutor, copies of

22 the exhibits so listed.

23 Now, that Rule must apply to every other document that you become

24 aware of later as the case, the Defence case, progresses. So your

25 obligation is to make sure that as soon as an item is potentially an

Page 9299

1 exhibit it is delivered to the Prosecutor. And if that course is not

2 followed in future, then I would be much less inclined to be sympathetic

3 to an application made to expand the 65 ter exhibit list, and I want you

4 to be clear about that at this stage.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic --

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I have to say

7 something with respect to what was stated by Mr. Nice and what Mr. Bonomy

8 just explained to us, namely, you remember well - when I say "you," I'm

9 referring to you personally and to Mr. Kwon - so you remember that very

10 frequently I would receive documents from Mr. Nice one day for the next

11 day. I would receive many binders, a lot of documents, and when I

12 inquired how was I supposed to become familiar with those documents, I

13 would invariably be told by the late Mr. May that I could do that

14 overnight, that I had enough time during the night.

15 Therefore, this issue of providing documents is directly linked to

16 the fact that I was never given time to prepare my case, and you're aware

17 of that very well. When I received 600.000 pages in the course of the

18 Kosovo, Croatia, and Bosnia presentation of evidence, Mr. May would

19 invariably say, "We will consider that," however, that was never

20 considered. And Mr. Nice is now abusing the fact that I was never given

21 an opportunity, I was never given time during which I could read the

22 documents and prepare myself.

23 In addition to that, I never had access to any archives. You were

24 able to see that my associates received these documents in late 2004, not

25 before that. These are objective reasons, therefore.

Page 9300

1 Mr. Nice just mentioned Mr. Bulatovic, who was the president of

2 Montenegro and Prime Minister of the federal government in the course of

3 those ten years. On the list of documents there are several minutes of

4 the meetings of the Supreme Defence Council, and I can tell you straight

5 away that I received all of those documents from Mr. Nice's office. Prior

6 to that I had never been granted an access to that.

7 Mr. Nice said last year that he said about 5.000 pages of minutes

8 of the Supreme Defence Council, and then when we addressed Mr. Nice's

9 office, it was only then that we were able to receive some documents that

10 could be provided with Bulatovic or in the course of his testimony.

11 In addition to that, Mr. Bonomy explained that this way of

12 presenting documents was inappropriate. I didn't quite understand that.

13 I understood the procedure to be that when a witness comes to testify the

14 documents are presented during the testimony of the witness and that that

15 was the only possible way to have the exhibits admitted. I'm not aware of

16 any other avenue of doing so. Please let me know clearly, what is it that

17 you want me to do?

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, there are three matters that need to be dealt

19 with there. First of all, if you were listening clearly this morning, you

20 would know that I have taken account of the fact that the Prosecution did

21 on occasions present material without the request which we have asked you

22 to make. I've taken account of that. But at this stage of the case, when

23 you're in possession of the documents, it's your duty to intimate them, as

24 I've already explained, and revenge against the Prosecution does not

25 justify not following that course.

Page 9301

1 Secondly, as far as the method of presentation is concerned, there

2 are two separate issues. One is presentation to the Prosecution in the

3 sense of giving them notice. It's your job to send copies. That's the

4 same point as I've just been making, so that they're aware of the

5 documents that you intend to refer to. But as far as presenting evidence

6 in Court is concerned, it's plainly open to you to prepare written

7 statements of witnesses who are going to refer to large numbers of

8 documents and for these to be incorporated into the written statement to

9 speed up the presentation of the evidence in chief and to enable you to

10 concentrate your oral presentation of the witness's evidence on the most

11 crucial elements. Those advising you, your associates and Mr. Kay, are in

12 a particularly well-informed position to be able to give you guidance on

13 that, but so far you've shown no inclination to follow that sort of

14 course. Mr. Nice has been urging it upon you repeatedly throughout the

15 trial.

16 JUDGE KWON: And if I could add one thing. Mr. Milosevic, I note

17 there's a sort of distortion when you said that most of the Prosecution's

18 documents were disclosed to you at a belated stage. I think, although

19 there are some materials that are disclosed very -- at a belated stage,

20 most of the documents were handed over to you at the beginning of the

21 trial, and it is the courtesy copies that were disclosed just a day before

22 or something like that.

23 Am I correct in so understanding, Mr. Nice?

24 MR. NICE: Yes.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, Mr. Milosevic, continue your

Page 9302












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 9303

1 examination of the witness.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, I'll continue. If you

3 believe that disclosing 600.000 pages is normal time for discovery without

4 giving more time than an overnight, then you're probably right.


6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 Examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]

8 Q. Good morning, General.

9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note that the witness's

10 microphone is not on.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please have the microphones turned on for the

12 witness.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Please look at page 54.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: What document is this?

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is the document that we looked

17 at yesterday. That's -- let me just have a look. Tab 4. This is the

18 annual intelligence report of the electronic reconnaissance and

19 anti-electronic operations for 1998.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Have you found page 54, General?

22 A. Yes, yes.

23 Q. Please look at the date of the 7th of December.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. That's the fourth paragraph from the top. Please read what it

Page 9304

1 says here.

2 A. "We found ought that KLA members shot two Siptars, claiming that

3 they were not their supporters. One of them had given a KLA member from

4 his village 1.000 francs and said that many Siptars who were not able to

5 give them contributions in money were harassed and beaten by the KLA.

6 Particularly threatened are those who do not have relatives in the KLA."

7 Q. Were you aware of that practice except for the fact that it was

8 included in this report?

9 A. Yes. I had the opportunity to talk to some Siptars, and my

10 intelligence organ from the brigade did so too. We had this information

11 from conversations we had.

12 Those Siptars who were supposed to be well-off were supposed to

13 give certain amounts of money, and then members of their family would not

14 have to participate in the KLA.

15 Q. And do you know about executions of certain Albanians who did not

16 want to support the KLA? Did you know about such occurrences?

17 A. I know about an enormous number of such cases. First of all,

18 Siptars who after 1990 and 1991 stayed in the state administration or even

19 state-owned companies like public utilities, the post office, et cetera,

20 were affected in 1998 and 1999. Many of them were killed. Also, some

21 families that were considered loyal to the Republic of Serbia also had

22 quite a number of problems.

23 In my zone, many members of such families were killed. If

24 necessary, I can even provide their names.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: What do you mean by "an enormous number of such

Page 9305

1 cases"?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] An enormous number is tens of such

3 cases.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Take a look at the next paragraph, which has to do with the 8th of

7 December. Just read the beginning. We're not going to read the whole

8 paragraph. We haven't got time for that.

9 A. "Members of the KLA caught two Siptar women and slit their throats

10 because they had used Motorolas to lead the police to a group of

11 terrorists in Klecka sector and thus helped to disperse them."

12 Q. And towards the end of the page, please look at the date of the

13 15th of December.

14 A. The 15th of December: "Siptars were saying that they hoped that

15 they would not be attacked and abused by the police now that the verifiers

16 arrived, but that they had to attack the Serbs everywhere. They salute

17 each other by saying, 'May you have luck in the new war.'"

18 Q. Does that mean that when the Verification Mission arrived they

19 started killing again?

20 A. After the anti-terrorist operation ended at the end of September

21 1998, the killings went on, but to a lesser degree, until December 1998.

22 When the verifiers arrived, the army and the police had to leave many

23 strategic points along roads and throughout the territory. Again, these

24 positions were taken up by the terrorist forces, and again roads were

25 attacked, vehicles, columns of members of the MUP, and civilians.

Page 9306

1 Q. And what does it say in the last line on this page, the same date?

2 A. "Siptars keep disseminating the information that there will be a

3 new war again in the spring; they call it a 'Bloody spring, when they will

4 set everything on fire, and half of Serbia will be burning if need be.'"

5 Q. Please look at the next page, the 16th of December. That is the

6 second paragraph on the next page. You can start with the second

7 sentence, you don't have to start out with the first one, it doesn't

8 matter, "... that many came from abroad," and so on.

9 A. "Sabotage terrorist members are in Osljane village between Gornja

10 Klina and Vucitrn where they staying in several Siptar houses. They

11 brought beds to sleep in, and procured new Golfs. In this camp, two

12 Germans have been training about 60 saboteurs."

13 Q. All right. And what does it say about the 19th of December in

14 this survey?

15 A. The 19th of December: "They are mentioning that the war will

16 break out in the spring and that some instructors and retired officers

17 arrived from America and Germany to train them in handling modern weapons.

18 Full aircraft are flying every day on the Zurich-Tirana line."

19 Q. The 20th of December. Please tell us what is characteristic here.

20 A Siptar from Germany is referred to there.

21 A. Yes. "A Siptar from Germany asked his compatriots from Kosovo to

22 give him information so that he could infiltrate three Mujahedin he had

23 with him. He was advised to try to do it through the Democratic Alliance

24 of Kosovo in Budapest."

25 Q. What about the 22nd of December? A number of those who are being

Page 9307

1 trained in Albania are referred to. So could you just read out that

2 sentence.

3 A. "There are about 10.000 Siptars being trained in Albania and there

4 were officers among them."

5 For us, this was a fact that we absolutely knew. We knew that

6 they were being trained in Albania, and we knew the bases where terrorists

7 were being trained. That's a fact. The training started in smaller

8 groups as far as back as in 1991. This figure of 10.000 was an immediate

9 preparation for 1999. If necessary, I can mention the actual centres

10 involved.

11 The training involved some officers of the Albanian army too.

12 Q. What were the centres that you knew?

13 A. Kuksta Polje [phoen], Vucja Dol, Sahan, Tirana, just to mention a

14 few.

15 Q. Please look at the bottom of this page, the 26th of December,

16 1998. What does it say there in the second sentence, to omit the portion

17 about money and sniper rifles.

18 A. "In some areas, the Siptars are saying that the police have so far

19 not been coming and that the only problems they have are with KLA

20 members."

21 Q. And then on the 27th of December?

22 A. "Every employed Siptar living abroad gives 1.000 Deutschmark for

23 Kosovo if he is working illegally; if they have a legal company and

24 papers, they are giving 2.000 Deutschmark respectively."

25 Q. Thank you, General. In the same tab, further on, there is a list

Page 9308

1 of confirmed and exposed sabotage and terrorist forces members in Kosovo

2 and Metohija in 1998.

3 A. Yes, I've found it.

4 Q. What does this list refer to? Who compiled it?

5 A. This list refers to exposed, revealed members of the sabotage and

6 terrorist forces and radio goniometric devices show where they were, and

7 also the time of identification of all of these members is listed in the

8 list.

9 Q. You can also see the positions they held, some of them political

10 positions, and command positions too. And the last column is source and

11 time of information received. Do I conclude correctly that "RI" is radio

12 reconnaissance?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So all these documents are based on radio reconnaissance; is that

15 right?

16 A. Yes.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: If that's the case, why does RI not appear in all

18 of them?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is evident that all this

20 information was received by radio reconnaissance. Please look at numbers

21 10 through 16 or 20 to 27. They were not fully identified. The full

22 names and surnames are not included. The operators who were actually

23 listening to the conversations managed to register this. And you see that

24 goniometry did not manage to establish the exact place where they were

25 calling from but obviously this was the only way, the only method, rather,

Page 9309

1 that this unit could apply, that is radio reconnaissance and radio

2 goniometry.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Perhaps you can look at it the other way: Why is

4 it included in numbers 1 to 6 and not 7, 8, and 9, for example?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The only explanation is the one that

6 I've already given: For a number of these members, they could not reveal

7 the actual location where they were, and they were not identified by their

8 full names and surnames.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: If RI simply means radio intelligence, then why is

10 it necessary to exclude that if you don't have the exact location

11 pinpointed?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I certainly cannot give an

13 explanation for these other cases why it was not included.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Who compiled the document?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already said yesterday; it's an

16 integral part of the previous document.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: This is just part of the report. Sorry. I

18 misunderstood this last part. Thank you.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You can see that this is annex

20 number 17. This document, therefore, has at least 17 annexes attached to

21 it, or perhaps even more.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Can we proceed now?


25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, it seems appropriate

Page 9310

1 to me to ask you, as was otherwise customary, for the tabs or exhibits to

2 be admitted as they are being presented. I wish to remind you that

3 yesterday we had tabs 1, 2, 3 referring to particular video clips that you

4 saw, and now we have tab number 4, which is an excerpt from the annual

5 intelligence report based on electronic surveillance and anti-electronic

6 operations for 1998.

7 I tender these documents into evidence along with the testimony of

8 the general.

9 MR. NICE: I would ask that this document certainly be not

10 produced at this stage. Its admissibility may depend on answers to

11 questions that will come in cross-examination and it may indeed depend on

12 the ability of the accused, personally or through this witness, to provide

13 further supporting material of the kind we identified yesterday.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 MR. KAY: May I make an observation? I don't want to interrupt

16 Your Honours on this matter. It does seem easier, as we go along, to deal

17 with admissibility. Mr. Nice's cross-examination is not relevant to the

18 admissibility of the document if the accused lays the foundation, proves

19 that it's probative and relevant. Whatever Mr. Nice does, that then

20 becomes a matter of weight, and he cannot have this hold on the accused's

21 case and his exhibits that he's attempting to exert.

22 In my submission, as the accused is developing his defence through

23 the witnesses and is able to deal with the documents that seem to him to

24 be relevant as he goes through, and perhaps discard documents that he

25 doesn't feel are relevant if a point has been able to be made, we have a

Page 9311

1 far more satisfactory basis for dealing with his exhibits and relevance to

2 the trial.

3 We seem to be getting bogged down into arguments over exhibits

4 that do not enable the case to progress freely and flow in a normal way.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: You may well be right in general terms about being

6 able to deal with these exhibits as they are presented when adequate

7 notice of them has been given by one party to the other, but if

8 authenticity is an issue, and there's an indication that that is the case

9 in relation to this document, for example, where the first 13 pages or

10 whatever aren't here and there's no indication of its date of publication

11 or not even any indication apart from what the witness has said of its

12 provenance, I think it's a bit more difficult, then, because the

13 Prosecution haven't had adequate time to make a determination about its

14 authenticity.

15 MR. KAY: If authenticity is in dispute perhaps we should go back

16 to the practice we had in the Prosecution case, of MFI'ing - marked for

17 identification - in those exceptions, which became not really the rule to

18 everything but they were matters that we were able to attend to and more

19 conveniently look at and consider.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Kay.

21 JUDGE KWON: Do you think, Mr. Kay, that we can have further

22 evidence apart from this witness's evidence in relation to the

23 authenticity of this exhibit?

24 MR. KAY: Well, he's laid the foundation as to where it came from

25 and the explanation that these were Delic documents produced by the VJ,

Page 9312

1 hence the way that it has been cut into the shape that it has, and there

2 are passages -- and one can understand that the VJ would present materials

3 in that way. If it's not relevant to this general, there's no reason why

4 he should have possession of it, which, as I understood it, is the

5 explanation, which sounds reasonable.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't wish to hear you, Mr. Milosevic. The

9 Chamber has made a determination on this issue. By majority, we'll admit

10 the document now. We think there is --

11 JUDGE KWON: Tab 4.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is it tab 4? Majority in relation to tab 4. We

13 think there is much wisdom in returning to the practice of dealing with

14 the admission of documents as they arise and as they are tendered. This

15 was our practice in the beginning. We appear to be making a separate

16 labour for ourselves, and this is, in my view, hampering progress in the

17 case. So by majority we will admit this document.

18 JUDGE KWON: Video clips will be admitted, but I have one thing to

19 clarify in relation to that.

20 Mr. Milosevic, the witness yesterday said the last clip we saw was

21 taken at the fundraising dinner in honour of Mr. Kerry in 2004, but your

22 index has no reference to that. On the contrary, your index, number 2A,

23 says Holbrooke, Clark, and Albanian lobby in 1998. In 2004 I would assume

24 that Mr. Clark was also a candidate. So I wonder whether the witness was

25 mistaken or not. If you could clarify that.

Page 9313

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In the DVD, Holbrooke is in Junik,

2 and there is the oath-taking ceremony where it says that they are

3 struggling for unity with Albania, June 1998. In the other excerpt, that

4 same leader that was in charge of the oath-taking ceremony was with

5 Holbrooke in Junik also in mid-1998.

6 The third extract shows the role of the members of the so -- of

7 the then American administration, which the Albanians explain themselves,

8 and they call Clark a veteran of the KLA and Holbrooke the Golden

9 Kalashnikov. So this was in mid-1998, where you can see a very immediate

10 direct cooperation with the forces who wished to unite part of Serbia with

11 Albania and the then US administration. So that is a very important

12 exhibit, and it is footage which was taken by --

13 JUDGE KWON: We have to ask why the witness said that it was taken

14 in 2004.

15 General Delic?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not 1994.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The interpretation wasn't the right

18 one. The interpreter said 1994 whereas Mr. Kwon said, and you can see

19 that on the transcript, 2004 was what Mr. Kwon said.

20 JUDGE KWON: Yes. You said it was taken in 2004. Is it right?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I had seen the entire

22 version, the full version the film, and I can say that it lasts more than

23 one hour, and there are individual details related to the arming of the

24 KLA in 1998, then there are different meetings of the Albanian diaspora in

25 America, and one of the latest meetings about which this excerpt speaks is

Page 9314

1 a meeting from a fundraising dinner, a dinner of donors, where the

2 Albanians are giving their contributions in the pre-election campaign.

3 JUDGE KWON: Still I'm being confused.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I assume, Mr. Robinson, that

5 you can view the entire film. You have it at your disposal. We have just

6 selected three excerpts which are without doubt authentic ones. If you

7 take a look at the entire film, if you're interested in seeing that, then

8 you'll be able to find many other interesting events and details which I

9 don't have time to go into here.

10 MR. NICE: Your Honours, can I --

11 JUDGE BONOMY: This is -- this is completely to misunderstand your

12 role in this case. Your role is to present your case, and we're trying to

13 clarify why the witness tells us a piece of the film you showed related to

14 2004 and you claim in your index that it relates to a meeting in 1998.

15 Now, the two are not consistent with each other, and if you want to leave

16 it that way, then as far as I'm concerned the video clip should not be

17 admitted.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Certainly the dinner where we see

19 Clark and Holbrooke wearing dinner jackets does not refer to their

20 meetings with the terrorists in 1998. Now, if an error has been made in

21 the index, I'll take a look at it to see what happened there and supply

22 additional explanation about that. But certainly the dinner, yes.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you now saying it was in 2004?

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not saying that. The witness

25 said that. All I did was to show you 1998 where you can see the direct

Page 9315












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 9316

1 cooperation between the representative of the then administration, US

2 administration, with the terrorists, and then you saw later on in America,

3 after everything was over, as far as I understood it from the excerpt that

4 I viewed here when you viewed it too, that this was the end of 1999, and

5 on the footage there was certainly an excerpt with the fundraising dinner

6 as well. But we can go back to that if you have anything against --

7 JUDGE BONOMY: You could perhaps deal with the question that Judge

8 Kwon put to you, which is why in the index does it say, "Holbrooke, Clark,

9 and Albanian lobby in 1998; source: Security service of army of Serbia

10 and Montenegro." Now, why is that in the index if it is not accurate, and

11 do you want to change it?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'll ask the witness. Let me

13 ask the witness. He took a look at the excerpt.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: He's answered the question. He's dealt with it

15 already. What is your position on it?

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Albanian lobby in America and

17 the meeting between Holbrooke and Clark with them does not date to 1998.

18 That's for sure. The Holbrooke meeting with the Albanians is from 1998,

19 especially those who were striving for --

20 JUDGE BONOMY: What alteration do you want to make to your index?

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In the index, we should have the

22 exact date for the third excerpt. As to the first and second excerpts, we

23 have the correct date, but the film should be viewed again and then an

24 explanation can be given in the index. I think there was a typing error

25 in the index, because the Albanian lobby meeting was not the dinner

Page 9317

1 meeting that we saw. That wasn't in 1998.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 MR. NICE: Let me, if I can assist --

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the video be played again so we can make a

5 final determination.

6 MR. NICE: I think that the -- if I can help, just this: I think

7 what the accused has is some kind of documentary film which probably

8 contains bits and pieces from everywhere. Now, we know that the practice

9 of the Court in relation to excerpts from documentary films is to be

10 limited or fairly restricted in what it allows to be produced as an

11 exhibit and only able to do it by individual clips. The accused, who

12 really should be taking expert assistance and advice in the preparation of

13 exhibits, seems to have failed to understand what your practice is.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the video be played.

15 [Videotape played]

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: This is not the right video.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] While the tape is being found, I

18 have a document here which says: "In September [In English] ... VPRO

19 produced the documentary entitled The Brooklyn Connection, De Brooklyn

20 Connectie." [Interpretation] That's in Dutch, De Brooklyn Connectie. And

21 then that third excerpt is footage by the Dutch television. It says this

22 commentary: "KLA terrorist Boris Krasniqi [In English]... he attends a

23 John Kerry fundraiser and then smuggled weapons in Kosovo for a war that

24 is being planned against American and other UN peacekeepers there. The

25 video can be downloaded from the website," et cetera.

Page 9318

1 [Interpretation] That third excerpt you saw had Dutch subtitles.

2 So that was called The Brooklyn Connection, that one there, and relates to

3 2004, and quite obviously the witness is right on that score, where they

4 call Clark the veteran of the KLA and they call Holbrooke the Golden

5 Kalashnikov.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are we getting the video?

7 [Videotape played]

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: This is not the right one either.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The third excerpt is what we're

10 looking for. That was the first one. And then there's the second one

11 where you can see Holbrooke with this same person.

12 [Videotape played]

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can you assist us, then, General? When was this

14 taken?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The film was shown in 2004 on our

16 television, and I saw this film in the National Centre for Cooperation

17 with The Hague Tribunal, where all the documents are gathered related to

18 KLA crimes and other acts perpetrated.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: The simple question is: When did the event take

20 place that we saw in the film there with Holbrooke and Clark in it meeting

21 Albanians?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you were to view the entire film,

23 I said it was a fundraising dinner for Mr. Kerry.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: So that's got to be 2004.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree that that would be so.

Page 9319

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Here you can see them talking about

3 Wesley Clark, the supreme NATO commander in 1999, and then afterwards

4 mention is made of Holbrooke. Holbrooke is mentioned, the US

5 representative in Kosovo in 1999. And the footage is quite obviously

6 2004, as the witness just said.

7 There are photographs from that dinner here as well. If you wish,

8 we can place them on the overhead projector, showing Holbrooke, Clark, and

9 all the other participants in the dinner held -- at the dinner held in

10 2004.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, the index is clearly wrong. We'll admit

13 the tape, and a change should be made to the index.

14 MR. NICE: Your Honour, before we move on, may I make, without

15 reopening, one observation about your decision in respect of tab 4, which

16 I hadn't fully argued, and the observation is simply this: It's not a

17 question of my having a hold on the documents, it's the Chamber's -- or

18 the Tribunal's Rules which determine admissibility, and if as a result of

19 questions that I ask of a document admitted or admitted for identification

20 it becomes clear that the document does not qualify, for example, under

21 Rule 95, then I must be in a position to reopen the argument or the

22 decision and invite a change then.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, you're doing exactly what you said you did

24 not intend to do.

25 MR. NICE: I'm not --

Page 9320

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: In seeking to reopen it. The Chamber has already

2 ruled on this, Mr. Nice. Let us proceed.

3 MR. NICE: -- announcing my position for the future, that's all.

4 THE REGISTRAR: D300 will be given to all the binders.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, continue. We have lost a lot of

6 time.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the accused, please.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise. I did not understand.

9 Was the exhibit number given to all four exhibits, the same number for all

10 four exhibits, or will each of them have a separate number?

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's the same number for all.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please speak into the

13 microphone.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. General, here --

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, please speak into the microphone.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. General, in tab 5, we have a report of yours entitled "Political

19 and security situation --" "Report on the political and security

20 situation in the Djakovica municipality." On the second page we can see

21 that you wrote this report. Would you please take a look at this

22 document, General.

23 A. Yes. This is the report that I sent to the command of the

24 Pristina Corps, to the commander personally on the 23rd of February, 1998.

25 This report pertains to the political and security situation in the

Page 9321

1 territory of Djakovica municipality which, in relation to other areas in

2 my area of responsibility, at that time was quite critical.

3 Q. In order not to cover the entire report, would you please just

4 select several parts of the report that you yourself would like to

5 emphasise. It starts under 1, where it says: "Over the last few months

6 of 1997, and particularly since the beginning of January 1998 there has

7 been a significant deterioration in the political and security

8 situation ..."

9 A. Yes. In this report that I sent to the corps commander, I

10 identified two sectors. One sector is to the north-west of Djakovica. In

11 the central part of that area is the village of Smonica. This is where

12 the terrorist activities intensified, and that territory came under full

13 control of the terrorists.

14 The second area is to the north-west of Djakovica, from the

15 Radonjic Lake and then on to the village of Kraljane, the village of

16 Jablanica, and village of Glodjane and Maznik. Later on, Dukagjin

17 Operative Zone would be established there.

18 In my report, I stated that based on the information we received,

19 the situation became particularly complex when the police detachment which

20 was in the village of Uglane [phoen] had to withdraw to Djakovica, and

21 later on that area was toured by police patrols only.

22 Then in the report I go on to say that in late 1997 in this

23 territory, a census was made of male residents aged between 18 and 60 who

24 were given wartime assignments in the so-called KLA.

25 Then later on in this part of territory, especially in the village

Page 9322

1 of Jablanica, this entire area for a period of ten years was basically

2 inaccessible to the organs of the Republic of Serbia. Police basically

3 never entered these villages.

4 Q. I apologise if I interrupted you. Please finish your answer and

5 then I will put a question to you.

6 A. In this part of the territory, especially in the village of

7 Jablanica, this was the area that people avoided visiting, the civil

8 servants, the one -- the ones who deal with utilities and so on. They

9 avoided visiting this area. Not a single member of MUP came into the

10 village because he would have been attacked.

11 Q. Could you please explain in greater detail what is stated here in

12 paragraph 3 where it says that they had been engaged based on the system

13 of a peaceful farmer by day and KLA terrorist by night.

14 A. In this territory, all those people who were sought by law

15 enforcement organs found refuge. They were armed constantly. In -- this

16 pertains to January and February.

17 In the roads leading from Pristina and Djakovica and in Decani

18 going to Djakovica, this is the area where armed groups started emerging.

19 I've already given you an explanation for that. People would be engaged

20 overnight, they would be issued weapons, they would be tasked with going

21 out to the roads, stopping vehicles, posing as KLA members. And if the

22 passengers were of Albanian ethnicity, then they would be allowed to pass

23 through. And the role of these individuals was to control the traffic.

24 In January they stopped a bus in which two of my soldiers were

25 travelling. That happened on this road leading to Djakovica in the sector

Page 9323

1 of Crmljane village. However, what was typical of that period of time was

2 that their activities were aimed against MUP. When the passengers and the

3 driver insisted that the soldiers be allowed to go back to the bus, they

4 were indeed allowed. However, that was in January, and later on that was

5 not the case. Later on, all the soldiers who were found were kidnapped.

6 So these people operated in the following system: During daytime

7 they would be farmers and during night-time they would go to the staff, be

8 issued with weapons, and then either stand guard duty or perform another

9 assignment for the staff, and then the following morning they would go

10 back to their daytime activities.

11 Q. So this pertains to late 1997 and early 1998.

12 A. Yes, that's right. This report was written in February, and it

13 pertains to late 1997 and 1998, up until the 23rd of February.

14 Q. Based on this report, could it be said that at that time there was

15 already a very developed terrorist network existing in this territory?

16 A. Well, the network existed in the entire territory of Kosovo.

17 However, in my report, I discuss only what was pertinent to my area of

18 responsibility. In these two particular sectors, the sector of

19 Jablanica --

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, that was a leading question.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. In that case, please do not reply to the question. The

24 explanation provided was quite sufficient.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I hereby tender tab 5,

Page 9324

1 which is a report by General Delic, Brigade Commander, sent to the corps

2 command, into evidence.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, that's admitted. Number?

4 THE REGISTRAR: D300, tab 5.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. General, now let us turn very briefly, please, to the report. But

7 first, can you tell me, what was the name of your Chief of Staff?

8 A. At the time, Colonel Ljubisa Lojanica.

9 Q. All right. Colonel Ljubisa Lojanica was the Chief of Staff of

10 your brigade, and he was immediately subordinated to you and in a way was

11 your deputy.

12 A. Yes, that's right. He was my deputy. He was the second in

13 command in our brigade.

14 JUDGE KWON: General, what was your rank as commander of 549th

15 Brigade?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was a colonel from 1996 until

17 1999.

18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Yes. But your Chief of Staff was also a colonel and was

21 subordinated to you.

22 A. He was lieutenant colonel and was later promoted to colonel.

23 Q. Fine.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I continue?


Page 9325

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] For Mr. Kwon, who seems to have some

2 interest in the army of Yugoslavia, all of the brigade commanders were

3 colonels, except for Guards Brigade, which was headed by a general.

4 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Therefore, Colonel Ljubisa Lojanica, your Chief of Staff

7 immediately subordinated to you, on the 2nd of March, 1998, produced a

8 document which we can see in tab 6, which was also sent to the command of

9 the Pristina Corps. Did you find that, General?

10 A. Yes, Mr. Milosevic. This is the document produced by the Chief of

11 Staff on my orders.

12 Q. That's precisely what I was going to ask you and you have just

13 explained it very clearly.

14 Now, please tell us, General, this first portion discusses

15 political and security situation and states that it hasn't changed, and

16 then in paragraph 2 what does it say there?

17 A. Well, these are the events in the period following the first

18 report, the 26th and the 28th of February. It says that the Babaloc

19 refugee settlement was shelled several times by Siptar terrorists with

20 hand-held rocket launchers and automatic weapons. There were no

21 casualties in the course of shelling.

22 Q. All right. And then four paragraphs below that, on the 2nd of

23 March, 1998?

24 A. On the 2nd of March, 1998, at around 0100 hours, the Serbian

25 houses in the village of Bec came under attack. The Serbian families

Page 9326

1 Djakovic, Milic, and Lakic were attacked. The villagers took in the

2 members of these families who were later taken over by the Djakovica MUP.

3 Let me just mention that nowadays there are no more Serbian houses

4 in that village and no more families with this last name reside there any

5 longer.

6 Q. Are you trying to say that those houses were the only Serbian

7 households in the village and that all of them came under attack?

8 A. Yes. There were additional two houses in that location, however,

9 they were vacant there. Residents would only occasionally come to visit

10 the village.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The transcript says, "Let me just

12 mention that nowadays there are no more Serbian houses in that village..."

13 The general did not say that today there are no more Serbian houses.

14 What he wanted to say was that at that time those were the only Serbian

15 households, that there were no other houses with Serbian residents, that

16 at the time those houses came under attack and those were the only Serbian

17 families residing in the village at that time. He didn't say "nowadays."

18 JUDGE BONOMY: Can we have clarification of that from the general?

19 Did you make reference to the situation nowadays or not?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Nowadays in that entire

21 territory there is not a single Serbian house for tens of kilometres, but

22 at the time there were only those three families residing there.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. I hope we clarified that, General. Under item 2, what is it

25 stated there?

Page 9327

1 A. "The aforementioned events and information have caused anxiety and

2 insecurity among Serbs and Montenegrins about whether to remain in the

3 area. Many of them are considering leaving Kosovo and Metohija."

4 Q. What about item 3?

5 A. "It is our estimate that the situation will continue to become

6 even more complicated and then terrorist operations and mass rallies of

7 ethnic Albanians in the zone of responsibility will continue to increase

8 in order to portray to the international public that Siptars in Kosovo and

9 Metohija are threatened."

10 Q. All right, General. At the time, in March of 1998, the 2nd of

11 March, 1998, when the report was drafted, and it refers to the events

12 which unfolded in the several days prior to that, were there any

13 activities of police or the army at the time which could have in any way

14 displayed a bad attitude, any kind of a bad attitude with respect to the

15 residents of Albanian ethnicity?

16 A. All units of the Pristina Corps and all my units were in their

17 peacetime locations, conducting their regular daily activities, which were

18 either training activities in the barracks or in the training facilities.

19 In addition to that, they also secured various military facilities,

20 barracks, warehouses, and so on. Nothing was done beyond that.

21 The same applies to police. Police performed its regular duties.

22 Traffic control was conducted by the traffic police, whereas the other

23 part of police force performed also their regular activities in towns and

24 villages. There were no other particular activities.

25 Q. All right. So we can see that there were a lot of activities

Page 9328












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 9329

1 carried out by terrorists at the time to which police did not respond.

2 A. This report that I sent to the corps command, to the commander

3 personally, was a kind of warning that I sent them, indicating that

4 something ought to be done and that the situation was becoming

5 increasingly complex.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I hereby tender tab 6

7 into evidence.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Admitted, yes.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. General, once again we have a report signed by you personally in

11 tab 7. Have you found tab 7?

12 A. Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

13 Q. Can you please read out the date of your report.

14 A. The 5th of March, 1998.

15 Q. As is stated in the beginning of the document, previous reports

16 are mentioned and the development of this situation in the area of

17 responsibility of the 549th Motorised Brigade in the course of the

18 preceding ten days. What are you writing about there?

19 A. I am stating that the terrorist group in the Jablanica sector,

20 that was a group of the famous criminal or infamous criminal and terrorist

21 Lahi Brahimi, who is the uncle of Ramush Haradinaj, would continue

22 spreading out of the Jablanica sector, and this will be proven by

23 subsequent documents. The attacks that were carried out in the villages

24 in the vicinity of Djakovica, Bec, Crmljane and Ratis, and the attacks

25 would follow in the villages of Bites, Janos, Ljug Bunar and Vranic. I

Page 9330

1 was listing those villages because there were only several Serbian

2 families residing in those villages.

3 Then I go on to say that we believe the primary objective the

4 terrorists in these attacks was not to kill Serbs but to so panic that

5 they would vacate their land and move out of Kosovo. Judging by what we

6 have seen, most of these objectives would be achieved.

7 Q. In this report do you refer to channels for bringing in weapons,

8 and is there anything that you could tell us about that in greater detail?

9 A. In this report, I identified three channels leading to the

10 territory of Kosovo and Metohija through which arms were smuggled. One is

11 from Bajram, Curi towards Junik. That is this is part of the territory,

12 from Bajram Curi to Junik. And further on towards the territory of

13 Jablanica. The second one is Cafa -- Liken, or Cafa Dobruna, from

14 Djakovica in this area, and it leads towards Rogovo, the village of

15 Rogovo, and further on to Orahovac. And the third one is the Stojanovic

16 border post here on the mountain of Koritnik, and from there along the

17 Plav river valley towards Opolj.

18 Q. You indicate the fact that weapons were being brought in along

19 these three channels and this was a warning, and I see that in the first

20 paragraphs of your report you say how these weapons are being brought in,

21 what the quantities involved were, and what was going on in general.

22 A. I'm cautioning through this report, because we had several such

23 situations, I'm cautioning that one of the ways weapons were brought in

24 until then was that smaller groups would bring in a few pieces of weapons

25 or that they would take cattle along so that they could bring in a few

Page 9331

1 dozen weapons.

2 However, in view of all of our preparations and the fact that

3 practically a bridge was established between Jablanica via Smonica and

4 Junik with the territory of Albania, it is possible with a single

5 well-prepared action to bring several thousand weapons -- rifles and other

6 pieces of weapons during a single night only.

7 I also point out another possibility which did occur in practice

8 later, namely persons without weapons from the territory of Kosovo and

9 Metohija would go to the border escorted by terrorists. If they were

10 caught by the police or by the border troops, they would just commit a

11 minor misdemeanour, so the sanctions, the punishment was minimal.

12 They go to Albania without any weapons, they train from two to

13 seven days in Albania, they get weapons, and then with weapons they return

14 to the territory of Kosovo and Metohija, even at the cost of fighting with

15 our forces. There was one case when 800 men, armed men, members of the

16 KLA, crossed the border after having been trained for a few days. They

17 crossed the border armed.

18 Q. Thank you, General.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Again, I ask for the same thing,

20 Mr. Robinson, that this report of General Delic, which is in tab 7, be

21 admitted into evidence.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: It is admitted, and we will adjourn now for 20

23 minutes.

24 --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

25 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

Page 9332

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, please continue.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Robinson. First of

3 all, may I tell you that I've clarified a matter during the break, what

4 has to do with the index that needed correcting, as you said.

5 Before you have in tab 2 a surrogate sheet, as it is called, and

6 it does not say there that the meeting with the Albanian lobby is in 1998.

7 It says Holbrooke in Junik in 1998, and then comma, and a meeting between

8 Holbrooke and Clark and the Albanian lobby, but it does not say that that

9 meeting is in 1998. It doesn't say so in the Serbian text either.

10 Somebody must have added it, and it must have been a typo. I'm not saying

11 it's intentional or anything.

12 Secondly, in relation to what Mr. Nice said, that his co-worker

13 received information from Mr. Tomanovic stating that he needed my

14 approval. I assume that he did not understand what his co-worker said.

15 She asked Mr. Tomanovic yesterday, and I said that they can have

16 anything that was already provided to the Registrar. The question was

17 whether they could receive the materials related to Mr. Bulatovic, and his

18 answer was, "By all means." And he asked whether they wanted it in

19 electronic or paper form and that the answer was that it didn't matter, it

20 could be in electronic form too.

21 So this is what I heard during the break from Mr. Tomanovic, so I

22 want to set that clear.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, your break were well utilised. Let's

24 proceed.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation].

Page 9333

1 Q. General, in your report which is contained in tab 8 --

2 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please be asked to speak into

3 the microphone. The interpreters cannot hear him.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you're being asked to speak into

5 the microphone. The interpreters cannot hear you.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. General, in your report which is contained in tab 8, you wrote to

8 the command of the Pristina Corps. We can see your signature here. I

9 hope that you have found this report of yours.

10 A. Yes, I have found it.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: We don't have a translation for this. It's

12 fairly short. Let it be placed on the ELMO.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Just in the briefest possible terms, General, tell us what this

15 report refers to.

16 A. Mr. Milosevic, this is a report that I wrote and signed. It

17 pertains to the period from the 3rd of March until the 9th of March.

18 Here it says that I particularly highlight the following, that on

19 the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 6th, and 8th there were several protests in my zones by

20 Albanians. Actual figures are referred to here in particular towns and

21 elsewhere.

22 Q. All right, General. We don't have to dwell on that any longer.

23 I'd just like to draw your attention to the second page, a sentence in the

24 first line, where it says: "We are getting ready for war to clear --

25 clean up Suva Reka, and we are getting ready for Prizren too."

Page 9334

1 A. Yes. Through radio surveillance, Krug-2, RUP 2/2K at 2150 hours.

2 Q. Thank you. We're not going to dwell on this any longer.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Again I ask for the same thing,

4 Mr. Robinson; I tender this into evidence.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. This one will be marked for identification

6 pending translation.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. On the 15th of March, you informed the commander of the Pristina

9 Corps, the commander, because it says to the command of the Pristina

10 Corps, to the commander personally. This is the document contained in tab

11 9.

12 You say there that during the night between the 12th and the

13 13th --

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. -- a group of 20 to 25 terrorists was inserted from Albania.

16 A. Further on, it says that on the 13th, and the night between the

17 13th and the 14th, these groups were noticed at particular locations.

18 This is the area around Djakovica. This is a group of 20 to 25 persons

19 noticed as they were moving towards the village of Petrovac. They were

20 wearing a combination of clothing, civilian clothes and uniform.

21 What is characteristic is that during the night a group of seven

22 terrorists barged into the yard of Tom Malici in the village of Doblibare

23 by the white Drim River. He was forced to take his tractor and drive them

24 to the village of Bec -- or, rather, to the village of Crmljane. The

25 group had rucksacks and a big box. This Albanian, Tom Malici, made a

Page 9335

1 statement. He is an Albanian of the Catholic faith. He thought that

2 these people actually came from Albania, judging by the way they spoke.

3 He took the group to Bec.

4 Q. Drove them on the tractor.

5 A. Yes. But then he ran out of fuel, but then they slapped him

6 around and then allowed him to return home.

7 That same group during that night, around 1.00 -- or, rather

8 another group of seven terrorists during the night of the 14th at about

9 1.00 arrived in the village of Petrovac or, rather, Ljug Bunar, and they

10 found accommodation in the administration building of the former

11 agricultural cooperative, where they took a brief respite.

12 During the rest or, rather, after the rest, they continued to

13 travel towards Bec village. In Bec village three or four groups joined up

14 and a column with large rucksacks was noted in the village of Crmljane,

15 moving towards Crmljane.

16 Q. General, this happens in the area of your responsibility and you

17 inform the commander of the Pristina Corps about that, but you do not

18 intervene.

19 A. Well, those were not our orders. The army was still in place, and

20 after all, this would be a matter for the MUP to deal with. It would fall

21 under the MUP. I was just informing the commander so that he would have

22 daily information about this.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, again I ask for the

24 same thing; that the document from tab 9 be admitted into evidence.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, this is admitted.

Page 9336

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. And what does the report contain, the one that you are sending to

3 -- or, rather, on the 16th of March?

4 A. Yes. On the 16th of March, again --

5 Q. General, in order to use up as little time as possible, I would

6 like to draw your attention to subparagraph A, where it says that fire was

7 opened at Serb and Montenegrin houses in Bec and Crmljane.

8 A. Yes. It says here that during the night between the 12th and the

9 13th, fire was repeatedly opened on Serb and Montenegrin houses in the

10 villages of Bec and Crmljane, while in Petrovac the other houses were

11 attacked. Those were the only villages where Serbs still lived, however,

12 there were no casualties among the locals.

13 Q. Towards the end of page 1 there is a reference to the 15th of

14 March, and demonstrations are referred to.

15 A. Yes, on that day from 1100 to 1200 hours peaceful demonstrations

16 were held by Siptars in Prizren, Suva Reka, and Orahovac.

17 Q. Tell me something else now: There were some slogans written in a

18 foreign language, which loosely translated mean?

19 A. "Stop the Serbian terror."

20 Q. Yes. What kind of terror could this have been? You lived there

21 and you knew what was going on, what kind of terror could this have been?

22 Was there anything going on that could be called mistreatment or terror

23 against the Albanians? This is the 16th of March, 1998.

24 A. These messages were obviously directed to someone else, because

25 they were written in the English language. "Stop the Serbian terror"

Page 9337

1 would be a translation of what it says.

2 It is characteristic that no one spoke to the protesters and that

3 they were only filmed with a camera. The protesters were Siptars of the

4 Muslim faith, whereas the Siptar Catholics were -- had a much lower

5 presence; only 5 or 10 per cent.

6 Q. You say here, in the last line before moving on to subparagraph B,

7 which deals with your observations from the border zones, it says: "This

8 shows that the Siptars wished to show the world via the media that they

9 are threatened by the Serbs in Kosovo and Metohija."

10 So tell me, General, that was your own conclusion. Were they

11 threatened by the Serbs in Kosovo and Metohija?

12 A. On the basis of what I said previously, it is obvious who was

13 threatened in Kosovo and Metohija. All of this is part of their

14 propaganda, this propaganda that was supposed to go somewhere else to find

15 fertile ground, somewhere beyond the borders of our country.

16 Q. So that is what you wrote in mid-March 1998 in your report.

17 A. Yes.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, could this please be

19 admitted into evidence as well, what General Delic brought, this report.


21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Tab 11 includes a very short note of yours. It says, "Very

23 urgent," and it says it's addressed to the command of the Pristina Corps,

24 to the commander or Chief of Staff personally.

25 A. Yes. This is a telegram, a telegram which was urgently sent

Page 9338

1 because the nature of the information contained was such that it required

2 that the commander be notified immediately.

3 An informer was talked to on the 14th of March, 1998, and what was

4 found out was that a group of 50 to 60 Albanians from Kosovo, mostly young

5 men, crossed via Has into Albania. Has is this territory from Djakovica

6 to Prizren along the border, this border area. That's Has. So they

7 crossed into Albania and were stationed in the area of the town of Kruma

8 in the Albanian part of Has.

9 So I'm informing the corps command because what was expected was

10 that this group would return within the next few days to our territory,

11 but with arms.

12 Q. Is this behaviour also within the context of what you explained

13 earlier on, people going without weapons and then, after having been

14 trained, returning with weapons to the territory of Kosovo and Metohija?

15 A. Yes. This is something that we knew a lot earlier as well and

16 that were going on every day, practically.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: General, may I ask you, if a group such as this

18 one returned with arms and you were able to identify them, to locate them,

19 what -- how would you deal with that? How would you deal with them?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The rules of the frontier service,

21 border service, are well known. So the border is crossed and all citizens

22 cross the border at designated border crossings, official designated

23 border crossings. Anybody else -- anybody who crosses at other places

24 would be committing an unlawful act and in violation of the law, so the

25 rules of the border service provide that these people be apprehended or,

Page 9339

1 rather, stopped; if they're armed, that they be disarmed; if they fail to

2 comply, the order's given by the border authorities and open fire, then

3 the border authorities have the right to respond in like kind, that is to

4 say open fire themselves. That's all quite clear and defined, as it is in

5 any other army, by the rules governing the border services or frontier

6 services.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: And did you ever have to have your forces open

8 fire?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were compelled to do so a number

10 of times, yes. We were compelled to because the border authorities, here

11 as you can see on this map, these red points are our border huts and

12 usually they are manned by 30 men. At the time when the situation became

13 more complicated, we upped the number of men and there were about 60 men

14 in each of the huts. But you have to understand that this border belt is

15 a mountainous area, high mountains all around. For example, the Mount

16 Koritnik is about 2.333 metres above sea level. Pastrik is 1.988 metres

17 above sea level. So it's difficult terrain to secure. And if you know

18 that the people to secure the border have come from all over the territory

19 of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, they're not well acquainted with

20 the area and terrain. And on the other hand, we have people, Albanians,

21 from the territory of Kosovo and Metohija or Albanians from Albania

22 proper, coming in to sell weapons to Kosovo and Metohija, know this border

23 belt area very well, and what happens is that the number of people coming

24 in across the border is far greater than the number of men securing the

25 border, the patrols there. And patrols number three to five men. Or if

Page 9340

1 there are -- is an observation post, there are only three men, or if it's

2 an ambush, then six to seven individuals. And at times there were several

3 hundred people that came across a small group of border security guard, of

4 only five or six of them.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. What I'm really trying to find out is

6 what was the most usual way in which your forces would deal with the --

7 with KLA, with the KLA.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The usual way, and this holds true

9 and is similar to the rules of service and similar to the rules of the

10 border service, means that any illegal crossings, persons illegally

11 crossing, are called out to and ordered to stop, halt. And if they halt

12 when this order is given, if they have weapons, then they are asked to put

13 down their weapons. Then the next order is to raise their hands up above

14 their heads, and the following order is that they should move away from

15 their weapons so that the border police or the men at the border could

16 approach them without any risk of having the people illegally crossing

17 using the firearms.

18 Now, if the individual listens to the orders, they are then taken

19 into custody, taken into the border hut, their particulars are taken, and

20 then that person is handed over to the Ministry of the Interior. After

21 that, via the Ministry of the Interior, a report is sent out to the local

22 mixed committee for border incidents, dealing with border incidents, and

23 what usually happens then is --

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Apart from incidents on the border, what was the

25 most usual way in which forces of the VJ or the MUP would deal with KLA?

Page 9341












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 9342

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as the forces of the MUP are

2 concerned, they have a quite different authorisation, different from the

3 army. They are duty-bound - and usually this is what they did - as I was

4 saying, they are duty-bound to caution the individuals and to disarm them,

5 either most frequently using physical force but without the use of

6 weapons. However, if the individuals who are violating the regulations

7 possess -- are in possession of weapons and if they use those weapons,

8 then, after issuing a caution, if they fail to desist and comply with the

9 caution, the rules of service provide that weapons can be used against

10 individuals that do that in order to defend the people in authority whose

11 lives are at risk.

12 This is the same in the army, but during peacetime the army does

13 not have any authorisation vis-a-vis civilians. But if a unit is

14 attacked, and this did happen frequently from ambush, then there's no

15 time. So there's no time to issue cautions. What you have to do if a

16 unit is attacked, then the unit must open fire, and if the unit is fired

17 at, it must respond with fire to neutralise the adversary, and if possible

18 to arrest them, disarm them, capture them, and according to procedure in

19 the military police units, to hand them over as civilians to the MUP.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. General, at the end of the document in tab 11, you wrote -- well,

23 quite obviously you had gained this information from Albanians. You say

24 the following: "Regardless of having received the information from a

25 source who cannot be considered reliable," and in brackets it says an

Page 9343

1 Albanian citizen, "we are sending you this information so that you can

2 compare it to information received from other sources."

3 Is that also customary procedure? So you're indicating that the

4 source need not be reliable but that you're sending the information anyway

5 for it to be compared with information received from other sources; is

6 that right?

7 A. Yes, this is common practice with intelligence coming in.

8 Intelligence is classified according to its reliability or, rather, the

9 sources are qualified according to their reliability. All sources coming

10 from the other side are considered unreliable sources, although that need

11 not mean that the information received from an unreliable source is

12 necessarily false. However, an analysis is always conducted and they are

13 compared and tallied with other pieces of information to confirm their

14 validity and correctness.

15 Q. Do you mean you check and verify the information?

16 A. Yes. An analysis is made of the intelligence received to check

17 whether it is viable.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now, the tab is the same, it is

19 tab 11, and I'd like to tender it into evidence.


21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Now, what does your other brief report contain, the one found in

23 tab 12? And I can see that it says "Strictly confidential" under the

24 specific number.

25 A. This is a telegram, once again, which was sent as very urgent to

Page 9344

1 the corps command, to the Chief of Staff personally, and it is also to do

2 with the Djakovica area, the village of Brodosan near the white Drim

3 River, and it says that in the forest around Siza creek stream, a group of

4 15 armed persons were spotted and it was thought that they would move in

5 the same direction like the other groups, in the direction of Ljug Bunar

6 village to Bec village to Netic village, that axis, where all these groups

7 would congregate, and further on to Jablanica.

8 Q. You say that they would most likely take what route by night; is

9 that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you, General.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So once again I'd like to tender

13 that document into evidence, tab 12, please.


15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is the report of General Delic.

16 Mr. Robinson, my request is the same, to tender tab 12 in

17 evidence, General Delic's document.


19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. In the next tab, tab 13, you also -- this is another report of

21 yours. Is that your signature, General?

22 A. Yes. What's this one about? Just briefly, please.

23 A. Briefly, I am informing by way of telegram the corps command or,

24 rather, the commander that upon information received in the -- on the

25 Albanian side of the border, the Has area, that weapons and men from Susni

Page 9345

1 [phoen] into our territory were being gathered and that the initial

2 transfer is to take place from the 17th of March until the end of the

3 month. And also this implies that a corps -- across Pastrik, Mount

4 Pastrik, this infiltration was supposed to take place because that's the

5 easiest route, and it's asking the corps commander to take measures

6 urgently to stop that passage, because the border battalion men of the

7 55th, under whose area of responsibility this area came under, did not

8 have the men or the means to do that. So my proposals are related to

9 that.

10 Q. Yes. You say, would you compare these -- this information with

11 your information -- "Please compare this information with your

12 intelligence and give your consent for me to organise the closing of the

13 border as of the 18h of March, 1998, using part of my forces with those of

14 the 53rd and 56th Border Battalions."

15 A. Yes. And I give other proposals for other resources to be used as

16 well.

17 Q. So these are reliable data, reliable information, intelligence; is

18 that right, General?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And now my same request, to tender

22 tab 13 into evidence.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it's admitted.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. General, a little longer report now, tab 14. We're not going to

Page 9346

1 look through it all, in order to save time, but would you just focus your

2 attention, please, on paragraphs 5 and 6 on page 1 and tell us what they

3 refer to.

4 A. This is a characteristic observation. In the sectors of Ljumbarde

5 village, Dasinovac, Donji Ratis and Gornji Ratis villages, once again the

6 territory of the Decani municipality, and it is near Radonjic Lake. What

7 is happening is that hay is frequently set on fire, as are sheds, during

8 the night, and the villagers from that area, including Albanians, don't

9 dare venture outside their houses at night even though their barns are

10 burning for fear of being killed, and they see silhouettes of people

11 moving about in the dark. And then I go on to say that it is very likely

12 that these actions are being carried out by KLA members. Of the local

13 Albanians, people are spreading news that their hay and barns are being

14 burnt by Chetniks and Arkan's army, Arkan's men. The purpose of this is

15 probably to sow the seeds of panic and the desire of revenge among their

16 own people in order to encourage acts of terrorism and foster inter-ethnic

17 hatred among the locals in these villages. On the other hand, local Serbs

18 and Montenegrins in the villages of Djakovica municipality organise guards

19 round the clock to protect themselves against terrorists.

20 Q. So this is a phenomenon that you talk about. You write about this

21 situation in your report. Now, how far was that situation prevalent, that

22 is to say that KLA members set fire to hay and barns for the reasons and

23 purposes that you mention here?

24 A. This was later confirmed, especially on the one hand this was done

25 -- things like this were done to ensure the homogenisation of Albanians

Page 9347

1 because there were many of those who did not accept terrorist methods. So

2 they wanted to pull them in and then to effect mobilisation in those

3 villages. And on the other hand, as mention is made here of the Chetniks

4 and Arkan's army, that's what is referred to, which is ludicrous, to say

5 the least, but anyway, this created with the Albanian population a sense

6 of fear and prompted them to revenge, the desire for revenge.

7 Q. Thank you, General.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can you just -- what do you say all of this --

9 these documents go to show? What do they establish?

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] These documents establish and go to

11 show that there was a very organised manner in which there was an

12 escalation of terrorist activity going on geared against on the one hand

13 -- geared to mobilise forcibly, as you can see, because people were

14 executed, their throats slit and so on, and then to make the international

15 community -- to paint a picture for the international community contrary

16 to the facts. And the facts about which these reports relate are contrary

17 to the assertions and claims made by Mr. Nice as well with respect to the

18 conduct of the army and the police dating back to that period, that is to

19 say their -- the conduct of the Serb side from that time, so that these

20 are very important and significant facts and important information

21 testifying to the real situation, because the brigade commander informs

22 his superiors about realistic facts and not assumptions of any kind.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Kay, you also said that these background

24 incidents serve to show the state of mind of the accused at the time of

25 the incidents in the indictment.

Page 9348

1 MR. KAY: The case presented against the accused has been largely

2 starting from that period of October 1998 but has reflected what has

3 happened before. In relation to the background evidence that's being

4 produced through this witness, it's clear that it's showing that the

5 forces of the FRY were facing a determined and hostile force within the

6 territory of the FRY.

7 Evidence has been called in the Prosecution case which shows that

8 when the FRY forces withdrew after the Holbrooke-Milosevic agreement, that

9 the KLA moved into those positions and set up to create breaches of that

10 cease-fire. There's clear evidence through Maisonneuve, through General

11 Naumann, through all the witnesses involving the KVM that that was what

12 happened.

13 If the accused can demonstrate the level of adversary that they

14 were facing before that agreement and then how that adversary became

15 stronger when the FRY forces withdrew to their positions after the

16 Holbrooke-Milosevic agreement, and the level of intensity of strength that

17 they had as well of the activities that they were carrying out, all those

18 matters, of course, go relevant -- are relevant to what took place after

19 January 1999 when the counts on the indictment state the case against him.

20 So in terms of the issues in the trial, there is certainly a

21 reason for producing evidence that goes to these matters. Of course, as

22 well, evidence that goes to matters that occurred after January 1999.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Thank you.

24 Mr. Milosevic.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The same request, that tab 14 be

Page 9349

1 tendered into evidence, Mr. Robinson.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it's admitted.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. General, now another report, once again from March, sent to the

6 command of the Pristina Corps. Would you please briefly comment upon it.

7 A. Yes. Once again, this is a telegram sent to the commander of the

8 Pristina Corps, or to the Chief of Staff, and the telegram lists two

9 events which took place on the 25th and 26th of March, 1998. These events

10 took place on the Malisevo-Pristina road. The buses were stopped, and the

11 persons in KLA uniforms checked the identity of passengers.

12 After the first several paragraphs, I provide my assessment and my

13 information based on which the situation is becoming increasingly complex

14 in addition to the existing problems in the part of the territory from

15 Suva Reka to Orahovac to Malisevo and Stimlje, there are additional

16 events.

17 Q. You're actually warning that the situation is escalating.

18 A. Yes. I'm saying that the Malisevo, Komorani and Crnoljevo area,

19 which is populated exclusively by Albanians, is becoming a very good base

20 for their forces. And I'm saying that the roads leading from Kosovo to

21 Metohija have become unsafe for traffic.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The request is the same; to have the

23 document under tab 15 admitted into evidence, Mr. Robinson.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it's admitted.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 9350

1 Q. Your document, once again signed by you, is a report discussing

2 terrorist activities. It mentions that somebody was killed. Can you tell

3 us, what is this about? Can we see that from one day to the next the

4 situation is deteriorating?

5 A. Yes. That can be seen in this document. We list the dates and

6 show how the situation is becoming more complex.

7 In the beginning, the date of the 24th of March is mentioned, and

8 the village of Dubrava where the MUP patrol was attacked, at which time

9 one policeman was killed, Otovic [phoen], and another was seriously

10 wounded. This was followed by an intervention by the MUP from Decani,

11 Djakovica and Prizren. They blocked off this broader area and a clash

12 erupted with a terrorist group numbering some 40 to 50 terrorists. This

13 was the terrorist group of Ramush Haradinaj.

14 And here in the report I inform the command about the course of

15 that operation. Two terrorists were killed. One was captured.

16 Q. So in that entire operation, two were killed and one was captured.

17 A. Yes. And one policeman was killed and one was gravely wounded.

18 The event took place because in the village of Dubrava there was just one

19 Serb household. The family -- the Stojanovic family lived there.

20 The MUP from Mrzici [phoen] had an order from its superior command

21 to visit that family daily and encourage them and provide support to them

22 in order to discourage them from moving out of the area, and this patrol

23 was ambushed.

24 Q. So the patrol was conducting its regular duties. They were

25 travelling on the road.

Page 9351

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you write here that: "It was characteristic that there were

3 foreign journalists in the sector where the operation was carried out,

4 probably inside the houses of the terrorists, filming only when MUP

5 members opened fire and took action and the population fleeing from the

6 surrounding villages to the woods. They did not film the action, the

7 activities of the terrorists."

8 A. Yes, that's right. That's what I wrote.

9 Q. You stated that some 400 men took part in this blockade after

10 this person was killed.

11 A. Yes. Initially this was a small group. There were just four or

12 five policemen, MUP policemen, and then the fire was opened. One of them

13 was killed. They initially just asked for assistance. The assistance

14 came in from Decani and then from Djakovica, and then several hours later

15 a unit from the Prizren area arrived.

16 Q. All right. Now, in view of the outcome of this operation, can it

17 be said that disproportionate force was used against the terrorists,

18 because we could see that two of them were killed and one was captured and

19 the others fled.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: You cannot put the question in that way. Ask him

21 about the force that was used.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. In view of the situation, General, and in view of your competency

25 to assess it, tell us about the force that was used, the measures that

Page 9352

1 were applied.

2 A. On this occasion, the police acted in the same way that it would

3 do otherwise or in the same way as police anywhere else would do. It had

4 to provide assistance to the patrol which had been attacked. It had to

5 conduct certain measures in order to disarm the terrorists. The

6 terrorists broke into several smaller groups and managed to break through

7 towards Jablanica. So this action of police was completely lawful and

8 regular.

9 Q. You're mentioning the fleeing of civilians. What prompted the

10 civilians to flee?

11 A. Most likely there was fear among the residents, because in those

12 villages the terrorists have had their good bases and felt at home there,

13 and they felt that they could take refuge there.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Delic, when you saw what you considered to be

15 manipulation of foreign journalists, what did you do about it?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was the commander of the army

17 brigade. I had no competencies over the journalists or civilians. All I

18 could do was precisely what I did; I informed my superior command. Any

19 other action taken by me in relation to these persons would have been

20 unlawful. Any contact with civilians, any contact with civilians is

21 outside of the competencies of the army. This is something that the

22 police is authorised to do. The police can check identities, the police

23 can issue warnings and so on. The army doesn't do that.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: I wasn't envisaging conduct of that kind, I have to

25 say, and it's interesting that that should be your reaction.

Page 9353

1 What, then, do you understand the government did to try to correct

2 the picture that you say was going to be created by the manipulation of

3 journalists?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a question that ought to be

5 put to the government. These manipulations --

6 JUDGE BONOMY: We may get to ask that question of someone who

7 would be in such a position, but you have no idea what steps were taken to

8 correct what you say was manipulation of what are described as foreign

9 journalists?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In order to correct that impression,

11 I know that on a number of occasions there were reports filmed either at

12 the border or in the territory of Kosovo and Metohija that could not be

13 sent to the international media because it was contrary to the general

14 impression spread throughout Europe about what was going on in Kosovo and

15 Metohija. It was contrary to somebody's interests, and we were fully

16 aware of that.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Is your attitude, or your opinion, rather, that

18 journalists in general are easily manipulated?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Once again, let me repeat that I'm

20 not the proper person to comment upon the media and the journalists and so

21 on. There are different types of journalists, and all of them work for

22 money, are paid for their work. There are those who hunt exclusive news

23 or scoops throughout the world, and then there are those who work on

24 orders of a certain political orientation.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

Page 9354












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Page 9355

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Continue, Mr. Milosevic.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. In the second part of this report, after the description of the

4 events, after the observations about the conduct of foreign journalists,

5 you in item 3 speak about the current situation in the area of

6 responsibility of the brigade and then go on to say how the situation has

7 a negative effect on the morale of the Serbian Montenegrin population,

8 which is shown in the following. So what was the effect?

9 A. "The effect of this general situation and general atmosphere, the

10 effect of these attacks, was that some Serbian residents who had already

11 ensured that they had accommodation in Serbia moved out their families,

12 first of all children, to Serbia, and some of them were looking for

13 employment in Serbia. Families who had not found a place to stay are

14 thinking of selling property or leaving the territory. This is especially

15 evident in villages where there are few Serbian houses that are frequent

16 terrorist targets.

17 "Further escalation and sustaining these tensions may lead to a

18 mass exodus of Serbs and Montenegrins from the area, and we already know

19 that only a small percentage of them remain there..."

20 Q. Thank you, General.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My request is the same,

22 Mr. Robinson; namely, to have the document in tab 16 admitted into

23 evidence.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it's admitted.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 9356

1 Q. Then in tab 17 we have a dispatch. In this document we can see

2 that this is the command of the 549th Motorised Brigade, and then it says

3 that this is the daily report on the 18th of April, 1998, and an extract

4 only.

5 What does this pertain to?

6 A. This is the dispatch of the security organs daily report on the

7 18th of April, 1998, and only the segment which discusses terrorism. It

8 discusses the activities of Siptar extremists in the territory of

9 Djakovica. Then it goes on to say that: "The arming of Siptars

10 continues. Nearly all able-bodied men are armed with automatic and

11 semi-automatic weapons and ample ammunition supplies. The distribution of

12 weapons in villages is mainly done by Siptar teachers through mosques.

13 An operation to forcibly arm Catholic Siptars is currently under way.

14 They are united. They have become homogenous. They have become

15 homogenous, and the atmosphere which prevails is to use all means,

16 including armed conflict, to achieve the goals of the Siptars."

17 And then: "On the 26th of April, all Siptars employed in public

18 institutions will leave their jobs. The goal is to create chaos,

19 especially in hospitals where they account for over 90 per cent of the

20 staff."

21 And then further on, it says that: "In the village of Morina

22 (Djakovica municipality) the person in charge of organisation is Sadik

23 Haziri, director of the farming cooperative..."

24 Q. You are saying that at that time, April 1998, 90 per cent of the

25 hospital staff were Albanians. Then you mention the director of the

Page 9357

1 farming cooperative, also an Albanian, who was in charge of organisation.

2 Then this document discusses the training of the terrorists and a person

3 who had come from Germany. In parenthesis it says "expelled," or

4 "deported."

5 A. Yes. Certain individuals who were the organisers are mentioned

6 here. These are the people who were training terrorists in villages.

7 Q. Yes, and then further on it says that in the village of Dubrava,

8 the main organiser of training is the person who had spent ten months in

9 Albania, training there.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. All right, General. Since this is the first time that we have

12 come to the point where we need to verify the authenticity, please tell

13 us, what does it say here at the bottom? What does this mean where it

14 says the accuracy of the telegram excerpt is certified and verified and so

15 on? Is this something that verifies the authenticity of the document?

16 A. Yes. It says here that the document was certified and verified by

17 Colonel Velisav Markovic, who is from the security administration of the

18 General Staff of the army of Yugoslavia. At that time, he served within

19 that administration. He was the one who produced all of these excerpts,

20 this one and the subsequent ones, and it is certified here that all of

21 these documents are authentic. It is certified by the security

22 administration.

23 Q. This dispatch came from the field?

24 A. No, no. This came from the corps.

25 Q. Yes, but it pertains to the area of responsibility of your

Page 9358

1 brigade.

2 A. Yes, that's right.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My request once again is the same;

5 to have the document from tab 17 admitted into evidence.


7 MR. NICE: Unexplained is why we have to survive on the basis of a

8 copy document, not the original document itself. And the Court will have

9 in mind, if I can just find it, that the accused's explanation in his

10 written filing yesterday was to the effect that documentation had been

11 provided by the witness himself and by members of the VJ acting upon his

12 request.

13 In the absence of good reason, it's hard to know why we should do

14 [microphone not activated]. Sorry. The microphone was off.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: You object to its admission on that basis.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Nice, please.

17 MR. NICE: I'm so sorry. It's unexplained to us why we should be

18 proceeding on the basis of second-best material when better material would

19 be available.

20 I'm going to be in a better position later on, incidentally, to

21 explain to the Court the degree to which material produced now would have

22 been covered by requests or by requests in combination with 54 bis, but it

23 is going to take some time. But we've clearly got a careful selection of

24 material, we haven't got all of the material, and now we're being asked to

25 proceed on the basis of not of an original but of a copy for no explained

Page 9359

1 reason. I think the best thing I can say is I reserve my position,

2 probably, rather than object, because I don't want to take needless

3 objections --

4 JUDGE KWON: What you're saying is that we have to have the

5 original document of this?

6 MR. NICE: We don't always have to have it, but there normally has

7 to be an explanation for why we proceed on a copy or certified copy if an

8 original would prima facie be available. And there is no explanation

9 here, so I reserve my position.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we admit copies here. We'll admit this

11 document.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you Mr. Robinson.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. General --

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice and Mr. Kay, it's still not clear to me,

16 even if all of this is true, that the KLA was active from a year before,

17 requiring action from the VJ and the MUP, how does that impact on the

18 indictment? I think that probably the best answer is probably the state

19 of mind. It helps to explain the state of mind of the accused.

20 MR. KAY: Yes, the scope and scale of a problem. If the problem

21 is a small scale, it doesn't have -- so to speak, it doesn't attract many

22 resources. If a problem is of a larger scale and a larger scope and is

23 widespread, it is an explanation of why a level and scale of resources may

24 be needed in a region. And the accused's state of mind will be based upon

25 the state of affairs that he has to face. An indictment that says you

Page 9360

1 mustn't do this, you must do that, without looking, without acknowledging

2 -- When you read the indictment, it doesn't acknowledge the scale of the

3 problem that had to be faced within the territories of the FRY at this

4 time. It gives a completely different one-eyed account of events in the

5 history, missing out these important aspects of the case. And when the

6 accused is asked to concentrate on the indictment, that, of course, is

7 only half the story because it contains only half the story. And for

8 these reasons, out of necessity, he is faced with the task of including

9 evidence.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Prosecution's case is not that the KLA was

11 not organised and active, as I understand it.

12 Mr. Nice, do you deny that all these incidents took place prior to

13 1999 January?

14 MR. NICE: I can't deal with all these incidents in detail, and I

15 might have been able to had I had material in advance and it had been

16 served in the form of a report. Of course this office of the Prosecution

17 prosecutes KLA people for what happened in 1998. It's well known. And

18 it's of course not challenged that there was activity of a certain kind

19 characterised as unlawful or arguably in the format of these documents. I

20 have to confess to being to a large degree mystified by the amount of time

21 being devoted to what would seem to me basically to be background. It may

22 have some limited value, it's up to the accused how much time he spends on

23 it. So far as I'm concerned, how this can affect the legality or

24 otherwise of the involvement of the army at a later stage and at the stage

25 of the indictment is an entirely different question.

Page 9361

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: But the accused asked a question which I think

2 was quite relevant in relation to one of the documents earlier. It had to

3 do with the proportionality or disproportionality of the force used,

4 because if he -- his case in relation to, say, Racak is that there was a

5 conflict between the KLA and the Serb forces and KLA activists died, his

6 forces, or the Serb forces, did not use force that was disproportionate.

7 So if he can show that the KLA -- sorry, that the Serb forces have a -- a

8 history and a culture of acting properly and not using disproportionate

9 force, that -- that makes his case in relation to Racak more credible. If

10 his view of the event is accepted.

11 MR. NICE: A well oiled moderate military machine, always acting

12 appropriately and on one occasion caught unawares, yes, I suppose it might

13 have some relevance, and indeed I look forward to hearing the evidence

14 about the military's involvement in Racak but its significance -- its

15 value, it may be thought, is going to be limited if not tangential, but

16 that's as far as I can go on it at the moment.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: My -- I'm equally concerned that this doesn't seem

18 to have much direct relevance to the indictment. Perhaps events closer to

19 the end of the year might. The situation was plainly quite different at

20 that stage. But I have another concern, and that is that all of this

21 could have been done quite differently, that this is plainly material that

22 the witness could have written a report or a statement about, identifying

23 the various passages in these documents, and I'm horrified to see that we

24 get to number 275 before we get to the start of the indictment period. So

25 at this rate of progress, time is going to be exhausted on peripheral

Page 9362

1 issues when a very full presentation could have been made in a quite

2 different way.

3 MR. KAY: I wasn't asked to comment on speed.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no. We've got --

5 MR. KAY: Yes.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: -- from today until next Wednesday before we sit

7 again when perhaps something could be done about that.

8 MR. KAY: Yes.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Otherwise, this witness is going to be here for an

10 eternity.

11 MR. KAY: Yes. Issues I'm certainly able to comment on. Speed is

12 a different matter, length of time.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just to say a few words in relation

14 to this. First of all, as far as testimony is concerned, any kind of

15 written reports exclude the public. I know that the answer can be that

16 reports are accessible, they are accessible on the Internet, but that is

17 not public by definition. There is --

18 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues] ... the public.

19 We are here to try to deal with events in a court of law. It's completely

20 different -- you obviously have a completely different attitude from the

21 one that a judicial system ought properly to take to the administration of

22 justice in a criminal -- in relation to criminal allegations.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, if that's the way it is,

24 Mr. Bonomy, then I don't understand why you allowed Mr. Nice to make a

25 public show, a show for the public, for the benefit of the public on

Page 9363

1 account of footage from Srebrenica that Serbia has nothing to do with just

2 because the tenth anniversary of Srebrenica is coming up, and you made it

3 impossible for me to re-examine General Stevanovic about that precisely.

4 So let's leave that aside.

5 I think that what General Delic is testifying about has nothing to

6 do with a show.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you were not prevented from

8 re-examining. I terminated the re-examination without prejudice to your

9 submitting a motion setting out why you should be allowed to continue the

10 re-examination. I have received no such motion. It is still open to you

11 to submit a motion. In relation to that, the associates can help you.

12 Mr. Kay and Ms. Higgins can also help you.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, you stopped me even

14 from showing a film during the re-examination that I got from the office

15 of Mr. Nice a few days before that, and it has to do with Srebrenica. It

16 was my intention to display the report of the Secretary-General of the UN

17 as well.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: I've stopped you. I have stopped you,

19 Mr. Milosevic. I'm not going to rehearse. I'm not going to go over that

20 ground again. In relation to the termination of your re-examination of

21 Mr. Stevanovic, I made it clear that it is open to you to put in a motion

22 explaining how you were dealt with unfairly. If you do that, it will

23 receive very careful consideration.

24 MR. NICE: Can I press the Chamber to log in its mind, or even

25 elsewhere, the specific and defiant rejection by the accused of the

Page 9364

1 suggestion, this time coming from His Honour Judge Bonomy, about the use

2 of written evidence, something we've pressed for from the beginning of the

3 accused's case and something that we effected in our case. Can I ask the

4 Chamber to log that as the high point -- not the high point, but the

5 clearest explanation of his complete defiance of the Court Rules and to

6 have it in mind when he asks for an extension of time. I could not agree

7 more with the observation of His Honour Judge Bonomy and was at some stage

8 going to say myself had this material been served in advance and in a

9 timely way, I would have been in a position to investigate it and to take

10 a position on it, possibly to admit it all or to challenge none of it

11 without necessarily admitting it. As it is, I shall probably have to ask

12 some questions about some of it.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic, continue.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Robinson. I have no

15 intention of turning Mr. Nice into a model of conduct. I told you at the

16 very outset when answering your question as to what this witness would

17 testify about, in Mr. Nice's entire document there is constant reference

18 to a pattern, a pattern of behaviour, and everybody knows by now that in

19 each and every paragraph it says the forces of the FRY and Serbia

20 surrounded a particular place, shelled it, after that entered it,

21 separated the men from the women, executed the men, and so on and so

22 forth.

23 So since you have not heard many generals, this is a general who

24 commanded a big unit in a big territory. He had 14.000 troops under his

25 command. You can see how the army reacted over a longer span of time that

Page 9365

1 I'm trying to deal with as quickly as possible in order to get to -- to

2 the events that are directly linked to the allegations made by Mr. Nice.

3 But Mr. Nice's allegations cannot be a framework of what I'm trying to

4 present, especially because his pattern is totally upside down, the other

5 way around. It is a total distortion, but you can see --

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: I have heard you. Continue.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could tab 17 please be admitted into

8 evidence. That's the one that Mr. Nice reacted to.


10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. General, in tab 18, there is a working map of the commander of the

12 549th Motorised Brigade that you yourself drew. Could you please explain

13 this working map.

14 You all have it in your tabs. Is it on the easel or should it be

15 placed now?

16 A. This is the working map. It pertains to the period from the 22nd

17 of April, 1998, at 1400 hours, until 1400 hours on the 10th of September,

18 1998.

19 Q. So let's just check the dates again. The 22nd of April to the

20 10th of September.

21 A. Yes. This is a map of the incidents in my zone. This is the map

22 that was in my office, and it is my intelligence officer who marked things

23 on it. Every day when a particular incident would occur, he would enter

24 it in the map.

25 So incidents against civilians can be seen on the map, incidents

Page 9366

1 against members of the MUP, and incidents against members of the military.

2 The date of the particular incidents can be seen, and also the effects of

3 the incident concerned.

4 Q. General, since we can see that the map is in colour, you said that

5 there were three types of incidents; involving civilians, involving the

6 MUP, involving the military.

7 A. The symbol here is for the MUP, and the colour is blue. There is

8 a legend here.

9 As far as civilians are concerned, the markings are in yellow, and

10 as far as the members of the military are concerned, they are marked in

11 black.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Red.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So these are the major incidents

14 that occurred. There were several incidents, but if there were no

15 consequences, if the intelligence officer did not believe that that

16 particular incident would merit being on this map, then he would just

17 inform me about it so it was not marked on the map. However, every

18 incident that involved a particular consequence was marked on the map in

19 my office.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: Does the map -- does the map also tell us what

21 action was taken by the army?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This map is a map of incidents. I

23 put it right. But as far as the military is concerned, we can see from

24 the map where the army units are. This is the Prizren garrison. This is

25 where my command is. That's marked too. Then also the border battalions

Page 9367












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13 English transcripts.













Page 9368

1 are marked or, rather, the border posts. And then in Djakovica also, the

2 place where my other motorised battalion is.

3 Later on, what you see marked in red, these little banners, here

4 in the area of Radonjicko Jezero, in the month of April - we will get to

5 that later - the corps command ordered that part of the units that we call

6 forces on the ready from the Prizren and Djakovica garrisons go and take

7 up particular areas. The second battalion acted against Babaj Boks, and

8 then there is the region of Landovica. We will later move on to the

9 actual assignments given to these units.

10 On this map, we only see their deployment, but what is of key

11 importance is that this map depicts incidents in my zone during this

12 period against civilians, against members of the Ministry of the Interior,

13 and against members of the military.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. General, it was in realtime that this working map was marked. If

16 I understood you correctly, all this information contained in the map was

17 entered successively.

18 A. Day after day. As something happened, it was entered in the map.

19 Q. Thank you, General.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I would like to have

21 this map admitted into evidence, the witness's working map.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it's admitted.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. General, can you saying something about the border incident at the

25 Morina border post? There is an official report here in tab 19. Mirko

Page 9369

1 Miletic, staff sergeant, is the person who signed it.

2 A. This is a border incident at Morina, which is here. When a group

3 of persons illegally crossing the border from Albania entered the

4 territory of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, when our border organs

5 noticed them, they stopped them in accordance with the rules; however,

6 they did not carry out this order. They fired at our organs, and then

7 withdrew to the territory of Albania, leaving behind the weapons and

8 equipment they were carrying.

9 This is an Official Note compiled by the crime technician from my

10 unit, Staff Sergeant Mirko Miletic from the military police company from

11 my unit.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the accused, please. Could he

13 please speak into the microphone. Microphone, please.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Microphone for Mr. Milosevic.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. General, what I was saying is this: A certain amount -- a while

17 ago Mr. Robinson asked the question of how the army reacted in situations

18 when there are illegal border crossings that take place, and you gave us a

19 general explanation. Is this one example, a case in point of an event

20 that took place and that the -- your response can relate to?

21 A. Yes. This is a concrete event from which we can see the reactions

22 of the authorities, and it says here that there were no persons who were

23 injured or wounded because the people crossing the border crossing

24 withdrew while shooting to the territory of Albania. They just left the

25 equipment and weapons that they had with them behind. And then we have a

Page 9370

1 list of all the weapons that were found in the field.

2 Q. So they shot at the army, they threw away their equipment, and

3 fled, and there were no adverse consequences on either side.

4 A. That's right.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will take the break. The Chamber will have

6 under consideration any measures that could be properly used to shorten

7 this presentation, Mr. Milosevic. This is a matter that we'll be

8 considering.

9 I'm still troubled by the questions of relevance. I'm not saying

10 it is entirely irrelevant, but I'm not sure that Mr. Kay has isolated the

11 precise manner of its relevance. To speak of a pattern I don't think is

12 sufficient.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: General, will we at some stage in this review of

14 documents come to any which disclose action by the army which resulted in

15 casualties among KLA terrorists before January 1999?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course there will be events of

17 that kind, too, as envisaged. There were a number of events, and I saw in

18 these documents that there are a certain number of such events as you have

19 described.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: I was just saying I think we had one earlier

21 where two Albanians were killed.

22 We'll break now for 20 minutes.

23 --- Recess taken at 12.18 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 12.43 p.m.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

Page 9371

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, as we broke for the

3 break, I'd just like to add some more arguments. The point isn't in what

4 Mr. Kay said, that it was a state of consciousness and not only the

5 pattern either, but you should bear in mind that each of these reports,

6 and we can see from day-to-day, contains the words terrorism.

7 THE INTERPRETER: State of mind, Mr. Kay was talking about,

8 interpreter's correction.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The word terrorism and how terrorism

10 was qualified didn't come from top to bottom, downwards, it came from the

11 bottom, from the terrain, from the field, as an expression of realistic

12 facts, which topples Mr. Nice's basic thesis about a joint criminal

13 enterprise which was thought out in advance. On the contrary, we see that

14 these are events to

15 -- which had to be reacted to because they were events of killings of

16 people throughout Kosovo and Metohija.

17 Secondly, if you look at what the army did carefully, and you can

18 do that on the basis of the information we have here, you can see that on

19 a daily basis, from one day to the next, the answer is provided as to what

20 actually happened, why the army was located where it was at times, whether

21 it was there to instil fear in the citizens and persecute them, or was it

22 there to confront terrorism and tackle terrorism? And that is very easily

23 seen on the basis of these documents and reports. And all the accusations

24 put forward by Mr. Nice I will not -- anyway, I won't be able to prove

25 that the army did not do something but I can prove what the army did, what

Page 9372

1 its conduct was, what its activities were, and all that was documented,

2 and then you will be able to see that it didn't do what Mr. Nice claims it

3 did.

4 But of course the evidence and documents General Delic has also

5 indicate that at times acts were not in conformity with the rules of

6 procedure but steps were taken to deal with the issue, and the need to

7 make things public, we're not dealing with a show of any kind that's being

8 put on here, what we're dealing with here is if we're dealing with justice

9 and justice must be shown and seen to be done and not justice through some

10 sort of materials -- executed through materials that nobody sees.

11 So there are a series of elements that I -- and more arguments

12 that I could present to back up why I think the presentation should be

13 done in precisely the way we're doing it.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Milosevic.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, that really needs to be answered, in my view.

16 The last point needs to be answered. Because as you will know from your

17 own domestic legal system in which the vast majority of material is

18 presented in writing, allowing justice to be seen to be done has nothing

19 to do with guaranteeing that every word that is uttered has to be -- or

20 every word that is expressed has to be uttered orally.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may proceed, Mr. Milosevic.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Robinson. I can't

23 remember whether I asked for tab 19 to be admitted into evidence. If not,

24 then I should like to request that so now.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 9373

1 Q. Just briefly --

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: That one was -- is not translated, so it's marked

3 for identification pending translation.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Tab 20, General. Does that refer to the same event with a

7 complete description of the event, the measures taken, and so on?

8 A. Yes. The first was an Official Note, the second was an

9 extraordinary report sent to the corps command, but it relates to the same

10 event, yes.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hope that this document has been

12 translated and that it can be tendered into evidence, Mr. Robinson.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's not translated, so it's marked for

15 identification pending translation.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. General, you have brought with you video footage of an incident

19 that took place at the Morina border point on the 16th of April, 1998;

20 19th of April, 1998; and the 24th -- 23rd of April, 1998, at Kosare. Can

21 we see that footage, please.

22 It's tab 21.

23 [Videotape played]

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it starts with the third

25 film, not the first film.

Page 9374

1 JUDGE KWON: We saw this, yes.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's not that tab. This is tab 2.

3 Would the technical booth please play tab 21, the video in tab 21 with the

4 three excerpts.

5 JUDGE KWON: How about number 5? Morina, yes.

6 [Videotape played]

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, there's no translation, so we're

8 not understanding what is being said.

9 THE INTERPRETER: The booths have not been provided with a

10 transcript of the footage.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I thought the footage would be

12 showing the incidents at Morina border crossing point and at the Kosare

13 point.

14 THE WITNESS: We'll see that in continuation of the film in a few

15 seconds' time, I believe.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us return to the video, then.

17 [Videotape played]

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There are two more pieces of tape

19 relating to the border incidents, but they confirm what the general

20 explained, that is to say they threw away their weapons and equipment,

21 fled back to Albania.

22 [Videotape played]

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is repetition of what we've

24 already seen, in actual fact. May we move forward in the tape.

25 MR. NICE: It's very difficult for us to derive a great deal of

Page 9375

1 value, if any, from this material unless we have either a transcript of

2 what you're -- unless the booths are able to help us, as I expect they

3 can't, with translation or interpretation.

4 JUDGE KWON: I wonder whether interpreters could interpret as far

5 as they could.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, we'll do our best, but the tape is

7 very fast and difficult to follow.

8 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Thank you. Then could we repeat the previous

9 one.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is the second clip that we're

11 going to see now.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And this -- on the 19th of April,

13 1998, at 0125 hours, our border authorities opened fire on a group of

14 illegal persons trying to cross who were in the region of C4/5 at the

15 Morina border point tried to enter territory of the Federal Republic of

16 Yugoslavia. The illegal passage after the people who crossed illegally

17 after opening fire, threw down part of their weapons and equipment that

18 they tried to break -- bring in, and on the spot our authorities found

19 three automatic rifles, two semi-automatic rifles, 16 bombs, 338 bullets,

20 seven of 7.62 millimetres, seven rounds for an automatic rifle, three

21 sets, combat sets produced by Sweden, et cetera.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's it, Mr. Milosevic?

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we see all three incidents?

24 There are three excerpts, three DVD tapes. This is the first. We need

25 the second and the third. To save time, we're going to ask the general to

Page 9376

1 comment on the footage together with all three or, rather, his comments on

2 all three, because they take place in a short space of time.

3 [Videotape played]

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 23rd of April --

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, the general cannot comment at the

6 same time the interpreters are trying to translate. So it's one or the

7 other, but let's have the interpretation.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wanted us to view all three

9 footage on all the three border incidents and then the general can give

10 comments on all three to save time.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's proceed, and the interpreters will try to

12 interpret.

13 [Videotape played]

14 JUDGE KWON: Should be previous one.

15 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] D 2/4, we came upon an ambush.

16 They came upon an ambush. When asked to halt, when told to halt, they did

17 not do that. They opened fire and there was energetic fire in response.

18 They threw away all the things they were carrying with -- on them and

19 started to flee in panic.

20 "One person remains dead on the spot."

21 JUDGE KWON: [Previous translation continues]... video. I don't

22 think this is the video the accused wishes to play right now. It should

23 be dated 23rd of April. Number 7, I would say, yes.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's quite correct, Mr. Kwon, yes.

25 [Videotape played]

Page 9377

1 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] On the 23rd of April, 1998 at 0545

2 hours at the region of Kosare border crossing, the border patrol with two

3 ambushes came upon a group of 150 - 200 armed persons who had crossed the

4 border illegally from Albania into our territory. Our border authorities

5 opened fire and on that occasion, killed 19 persons, and two persons were

6 captured. The following people were captured: Gashire Mustafa Gazmin

7 [phoen], Professor of English, born on the 28th of March, 1970 in the

8 village of Eric, Djakovica municipality; and the other man was Metaj

9 Sherif Iber [phoen]. He was an agricultural technician born on the 13th

10 of December, 1961, in the village of Eric, Djakovica municipality."

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: General --

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And there is one more excerpt.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. I see. One more excerpt, yes. That would make it the third?

15 A. No, the fourth. The fourth piece of footage.

16 Q. Does it come immediately after this one?

17 A. Yes. It is the border point called Liken, as opposed to Likan.

18 JUDGE KWON: Who is leading the evidence? Your index clearly says

19 three video clips.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Here in this tab, tab 21, we have

21 three DVDs which relate to the incidents at the Morina and Kosare border

22 posts, the first on the 16th of April, 1998, on the 19th of April, 1998,

23 and at Kosare on the 23rd of April, 1998. Those are the three incidents

24 and the three DVDs that were supposed to be shown. We've seen two of

25 those.

Page 9378

1 JUDGE KWON: No, three of them. We've seen three of them.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Very well.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Now, General, just briefly, could you give us your comments? This

5 is in your area of responsibility in your unit; is that right?

6 A. Yes. This was the 53rd Border Battalion based in Djakovica and

7 directly attached to the Pristina Corps. It was responsible to me in the

8 disciplinary sense because it was based in the same barracks.

9 The on-site investigation was conducted by the company from my

10 brigade, because my company had territorial jurisdiction over the entire

11 territory of Kosovo and Metohija.

12 What could we see based on these clips? We could see that this

13 was the prevalent way in which the weapons were brought into the territory

14 of Kosovo and Metohija. In the first clip, we were able to see how a

15 small group of people attempted to bring in weapons carried by 12 horses.

16 They came upon an ambush set by border patrol. They did not stop when

17 told by the patrol but, rather, opened fire. You were able to see the

18 dead horses, and the group managed to drop the weapons and equipment and

19 return to the territory of Albania. We were able to see dozens of

20 automatic and semi-automatic rifles dropped on the spot.

21 In the second clip, the situation was very similar, except that

22 the quantity of weapons was smaller. There were only three automatic and

23 semi-automatic rifles, whereas in the third case a large group of 150

24 armed persons came, and out of those 150, 19 were killed in the clash with

25 the members of the border patrol.

Page 9379

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: What happened to the remaining number?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for the remaining persons, since

3 this was a large group, some of them managed to bypass the ambush and

4 enter the territory of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, whereas the

5 other part returned to Albania. Through the --

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues]... prisoners.

7 You took two, two prisoners?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In one of these cases, two persons

9 were captured. One of them was a teacher of English from the village of

10 Eric. The village of Eric can be seen here, right here on the village --

11 on the road Djakovica-Decani.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... subsequent

13 to the arrest?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the arrest and identification,

15 which must be conducted, these persons were turned over to the MUP organs,

16 and then criminal proceedings were instituted against them. Most likely,

17 I'm not familiar with this, but it is probable that they were convicted as

18 persons who crossed the border illegally and opened fire on the border

19 patrol.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. General, how large was the unit of the army of Yugoslavia that

23 this large group came upon, this large group numbering 150 to 200 persons

24 who had come from Albania?

25 A. That was an ambush. Regular ambush is normally set by six

Page 9380












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Page 9381

1 soldiers and one non-commissioned officer.

2 Q. So what was the ratio in that clash?

3 A. The terrorist -- terrorists greatly outnumbered the border patrol

4 in that one case, whereas in the other case the balance was rather

5 appropriate.

6 Q. General, in these incidents, did the border patrol act in

7 accordance with the rules of service or could you tell us something

8 different?

9 A. In all cases, on-site investigation was conducted, and whenever

10 possible the Albanian side was always invited. Local mixed commission

11 number 4 is in charge of this area. This local commission, mixed

12 commission, is from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and a similar

13 commission exists in the Republic of Albania.

14 In several cases they came to the spot and conducted an

15 investigation. However, I know that there was one case where a fire was

16 opened from the territory of Albania and members of the commission were

17 unable to conduct an investigation and had to leave the area due to the

18 risk that they themselves were exposed to.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Do we have the reports of the on-site

20 investigations in these three cases?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We have report -- a report for one

22 of these cases. However, reports do exist. I have seen the reports

23 produced by my company. There are several hundreds of them.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Which number is this one, the one that you say is

25 here?

Page 9382

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Tab 19 and 20. Tab 19 and 20.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. 19 and 20 are an Official Note and an interim report related to

4 the border incident at the Morina border post.

5 A. And there are also criminal reports and various other kinds of

6 documents which are typically produced in such situations.

7 Q. You mentioned the mixed Yugoslav-Albanian border commission. Was

8 it notified and invited to come to the spot in all cases where there was a

9 border incident?

10 A. Yes, in all cases. In 1997 and in the earlier period, the typical

11 procedure was to have both commissions come to the site. However, in

12 1998, these commissions were able to meet only several times because in

13 most cases they were exposed to great risk.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Did they come to deal with these three cases that

15 you've just shown us?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the report, you can see that

17 yourself, because the documents refer only to the incident of the 19th,

18 and it is stated here that -- let me just take a look at this.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: I'll be able to see it for myself when it's

20 translated, but I need your assistance at the moment because it's not

21 translated.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It says here that the Yugoslav

23 side, local mixed commission number 4, informed the command of the 53rd

24 Border Battalion of Djakovica that it was unable to conduct on-site

25 investigation as it was unsafe, and they were unable to contact the

Page 9383

1 Albanian side and their commission. As a result of that, only one member

2 of our local mixed commission, Major Sorak Goran [phoen], as a member,

3 went to inspect the site.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: I understood an earlier answer to be that these

5 meetings took place whenever it was notified and invited to come to the

6 spot in all cases where there was a border incident, but here's an example

7 of the Albanian side not being contacted. Do you know the position in

8 relation to the one where 19 people were killed?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I'm able to see, we do not

10 have -- just a minute. No, we don't have the report in that case.

11 Therefore, I can't claim with certainty that the local mixed commissions

12 met in that case. However, an on-site investigation was definitely

13 conducted.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. And the clip that we saw, was that filmed during the on-site

16 investigation?

17 A. Yes. All on-site investigations are recorded by a still camera

18 and a video camera.

19 Q. Which organ conducts an on-site investigation when it comes to

20 border incidents, crossing of border by armed groups? Which organ is in

21 charge of that type of investigation?

22 A. An investigative judge from Nis is competent in such cases. That

23 judge comes when there is grave violations, similar to this one, and the

24 judge is assisted by crime technicians. In this case, crime technicians

25 were members of my company.

Page 9384

1 JUDGE BONOMY: I understood you to say a short while ago that it

2 came within the jurisdiction of your brigade to carry out the on-site

3 investigation, but are you saying that in each of these cases an

4 investigative judge came and dealt with the investigation?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. It is stated here in all of

6 these Official Notes that an investigative judge was informed. And

7 depending on the consequences and whether there were any consequences in

8 the incident, if there were perhaps casualties that were killed, and

9 providing that no fire was opened and that it was safe enough, then an

10 investigative judge would come to the site. If the judge was unable to

11 come, then he or she would authorise crime technicians from my brigade to

12 come and conduct an on-site investigation.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: In relation to the 19 who were killed, is that what

14 happened, that it was simply your crime technicians who carried out the

15 investigation?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I can remember, my

17 technicians merely assisted the investigative judge. They made

18 photographs and video footage.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Who was the judge?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The investigative judge from the

21 military court in Nis. Whoever was on duty there. Colonel Miladinovic

22 from Nis was the president of the court who assigned investigative judges.

23 There were a number of judges who came, but I can't remember their names

24 now. I would normally only meet them when they came to me to ask for

25 security officers from the military police to escort them to the site.

Page 9385

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: General, if there was a different version of

2 these incidents, if, for example, one of the survivors reported that his

3 group was unarmed and your forces opened fire at him, where would we find

4 a statement from -- from one of the survivors to that effect?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All persons crossing border

6 illegally and caught at the border would certainly be interviewed there.

7 I think that the Prosecutor's office has a large number of statements

8 given by Albanians who crossed the border illegally, and I believe that

9 back in 2002 the Prosecutor's office received that documentation. There

10 are also videotapes recorded during such interviews with persons who

11 crossed the border illegally.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... of the

13 survivors were tried, was subjected to a trial, that would have been his

14 defence. So we would find it in the court records.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly. All such cases were

16 prosecuted.

17 I remember that in another case, it probably was November and the

18 OSCE mission notified of this, a person called Saban Zimeci [phoen]

19 crossed the border illegally. He was prosecuted, and the members of the

20 Verification Mission asked to be allowed to go to the site where he had

21 been -- he had been caught with weapons, and to be allowed to talk to him.

22 So there probably must be a trace in the OSCE documentation.

23 I know that a criminal complaint was filed against him, I know

24 that he was prosecuted or tried in Nis, and that later on, sometime in

25 2001, he was acquitted.

Page 9386

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Mr. Milosevic.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. General, is it fully clear that a group of at least 150 armed

4 persons crossed the border and that it exchanged fire with our border

5 patrol?

6 A. Yes. During that period of time, it was quite typical for all

7 groups to be armed.

8 Q. All right. So they were armed. They crossed the border

9 illegally, and they fired at border patrols. Is that what was typical?

10 A. Yes, that's right, that was typical. In the earlier years, in

11 1995 and 1996, it was mostly cigarettes that were carried across the

12 border, and normally there was no fire activity on either side, and

13 smugglers would normally flee back to the territory of Albania. But once

14 they started smuggling weapons, then fire would normally always be opened.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I hereby request that

16 the video clips from tab 21 be admitted into evidence.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, they're admitted.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. General, please tell us in greater detail but as concise as

20 possible something about the order that you drafted on the 22nd of April,

21 1998, which can be found in tab 22.

22 A. Yes, that's right. This is an order that was classified as

23 strictly confidential. It was written pursuant to the order of the corps

24 command, because there was an order of the corps, and this was the order

25 for deployment of standby forces of the 549th Motorised Brigade. My

Page 9387

1 decision can be seen on the map whereas this is the text version of the

2 order.

3 In brief terms, let me say that paragraph 1 discusses the

4 situation in the territories, says that there was an escalation of

5 terrorist activities, and goes on to say that in Djakovica and Decani

6 there were village patrols spotted, that there were movements of large

7 groups of terrorists, and that there were engineering works conducted in

8 the villages of Skvijane, Stubla, Popovac, Smonica, Glodjane, and

9 Gramocelj. Skvijane, Stubla, and Popovac are located to the west of

10 Djakovica, on the road between Djakovica and Ponosevac. Glodjane is

11 located to the north-east of the Radonjic Lake.

12 On the territory of the municipalities of Prizren, Orahovac, Suva

13 Reka, Djakovica, Decani and Pec, that is where terrorist forces were

14 established, probably battalion strength, of about 500 terrorists. What

15 is under way is the arming of population from Djakovacki and Prizrenski

16 Has, that is to say between the river Drim and the Albanian border.

17 The objective of the action carried out by terrorists is to gain

18 control of as much of Kosovo and Metohija territory as possible by

19 carrying out mobilisation and arming of a large number of the Siptar

20 population. With help from some Western countries and the Republic of

21 Albania, they want to start an armed rebellion, seize power, and realise

22 the plan of creating a Republic of Kosovo.

23 Now, the tasks that I got from the command of the corps, that is

24 in paragraph 2. To step up the security of my own military facilities and

25 deploy part of combat group 1 and combat group 2 for intervention on the

Page 9388

1 border, to prevent the infiltration of sabotage and terrorist groups, and

2 the transfer of arms, ammunition, and military equipment from the

3 territory of the Republic of Albania and Macedonia to Kosovo and Metohija.

4 With the rest of my troops, I should protect my own military

5 facilities, barracks and the area itself.

6 Now, what does this actually mean? Further on in the next

7 paragraphs we see what the neighbours are and -- what the adjacent units

8 are, rather, and what my decision is as commander of brigade ultimately.

9 That is in 4.1.

10 Q. General, let us just link paragraph 4 to the assignment that you

11 gave at the very outset in paragraph 2. That is to say that it is written

12 here to engage for intervention in areas that are under danger and prevent

13 the infiltration of sabotage and terrorist groups and the transfer of

14 arms, ammunition, and other military equipment from the Republic of

15 Albania and Macedonia to Kosovo and Metohija. Deploy the remaining forces

16 and protect military facilities, troops and materiel. So that's it, to

17 prevent the infiltration of sabotage and terrorist groups?

18 A. This is the task I got from my superior command. And as brigade

19 commander, I do not have the right to change it. I realise the task, I

20 carry it out through my own decision, which is contained here in paragraph

21 4. I give assignments to my own units and that is contained here.

22 Q. In paragraph 4, you again refer to sabotage anti-terrorist groups,

23 and the task that you got.

24 A. Yes. Then forces on the ready is -- or, rather, standby forces is

25 the term used here. They are in a state of combat readiness for six

Page 9389

1 hours. So when a signal is given, for example the alert, combat alert,

2 then they should be ready to enter combat. They get into full combat

3 readiness ultimately. Combat group 1, which is in the Prizren garrison,

4 it says here what its composition is; one motorised company, a mortar

5 company, then 9 K11 platoon, and then a logistics platoon and a pioneer

6 squad. They take the general area of Landovica. So you can see that that

7 is the command of that battalion.

8 From Djakovica, from my other battalion, combat group number 2

9 gets to the area of Babaj Boks, and then we see its composition there too.

10 These arrows show their tasks. In the area where they are, both are

11 outside inhabited areas.

12 Where combat group 1 is, it takes my wartime combat post, which is

13 in the immediate vicinity of Landovica and of the vineyards of the

14 agricultural cooperative from Prizren. Babaj Boks is to the north-west of

15 the village of Babaj Boks towards the Albanian border. These arrows show

16 the direction where these combat groups would intervene if necessary, and

17 that is presented here. So if necessary, they would protect their own

18 facilities in the barracks. If necessary, they would render assistance to

19 the border battalion or, rather, the border posts if there are larger

20 groups that come there or if there are incidents as weapons are brought

21 in.

22 Q. The red dots are border posts; right?

23 A. Yes. And their names are given here too.

24 As for combat group 1, we can see that it intervenes in the area

25 of Suva Reka because my two warehouses are there as well, in Djinovce and

Page 9390

1 in the village of Ljubizda. And if my warehouses are under threat, then

2 their task is to intervene in that direction.

3 Q. Thank you, General.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, my request remains the

5 same; that this document, along with the map, be admitted into evidence.

6 This is the document contained in tab 22. This is what General Delic

7 dealt with now, the order for deployment of standby forces, and it comes

8 with the map that he just explained.


10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. General, are you familiar with the Official Note that is in tab

13 23? 25/03, confidential number, and the date is the 24th of April, 1998.

14 What does this pertain to, this Official Note?

15 A. It pertains to what Judge Bonomy asked me just now. It has to do

16 with those individuals that he asked about, the 19 persons that he asked

17 about.

18 It says here that when they came to the site, the investigating

19 judge of the military court in Nis and the crime technician, when they

20 arrived they found 19 corpses and two illegal persons who were crossing

21 the border who were taken prisoner, as well as a large quantity of

22 different weapons, ammunition 7.62 millimetres for automatic rifles, and

23 hand grenades and --

24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not manage to translate the

25 entire text because the witness went on speaking. It's the text to the

Page 9391

1 end.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. In tab 24, we have yet another Official Note that pertains to the

4 same date. Is that the same?

5 A. No.

6 Q. All right. We're now going to move on to the next one. So this

7 tab 23 pertains to this incident that was at the Kosare border post where

8 these 19 --

9 A. The film we saw.

10 Q. The film that was played here.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So this Official Note, Mr. Robinson,

12 I would like to have it admitted into evidence as well, tab 23.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, admitted. Well, it's marked for

14 identification pending translation.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. In tab 24, you have an Official Note which has to do with the area

18 of Gorozup, the Prizren garrison.

19 A. It is the 55th Battalion, on Mount Pastrik.

20 Q. Could you just help me with something, General. In the next tab,

21 25, again there is reference to the Gorozup border post. Is this the same

22 incident or are they two separate incidents?

23 A. It is the same incident. However, this was the largest quantity

24 of weapons and ammunition that was seen at the border in one single day.

25 However, the Gorozup area is in Mount Pastrik. 1.988 metres is the

Page 9392

1 altitude. I remember very well that on that day it was foggy, and when

2 they told me that there was an incident on the border and fire was

3 exchanged, they told me that they seized -- or, rather, that these persons

4 who were crossing the border illegally, that after opening fire, they

5 withdrew to the territory of Albania. I was informed about this small

6 quantity that was presented here; a hand grenade, et cetera, et cetera,

7 or, rather, 80 hand grenades, and so on and so forth. And the following

8 day --

9 Q. In this tab 24, it says that on the 22nd of April, 1998, around

10 1950 hours, et cetera, et cetera, and then there is reference to the 26th

11 in the next Official Note, the 26th of April, but the place is the same.

12 Is that what this information shows, General?

13 A. I remember that this was an enormous quantity of ammunition and

14 different weapons, and that I personally, on orders from the corps

15 commander, was there on the top of Mount Pastrik. Two helicopters had to

16 come three times. There was about six tons of equipment there, different

17 kinds of military equipment.

18 JUDGE KWON: General, did you say that tab 24 and 25 refer to the

19 same event?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Tab 24 pertains to the 22nd of

21 April, whereas tab 25 refers to the 26th of April.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. But the place is the same.

24 A. The place is the same. I thought, because on the previous day,

25 that is to say it says here on the 26th, that practically in the fog the

Page 9393












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13 English transcripts.













Page 9394

1 border organs from Gorozup met with the persons who were illegally

2 crossing the border, that they opened fire, and that they simply fled to

3 the territory of Albania. However, since this was a border patrol

4 consisting of five people only, they did not pursue, because of the

5 inclement weather, the illegal group, but they only reported about that.

6 The following day, a bigger patrol of border guards came to the

7 area and found a vast quantity of weapons. After that, when the corps

8 command received this report, I was ordered to go there myself.

9 I see that in tab 22 there is reference to that --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: In tab 25 there is

11 reference to that equipment.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. It also says here that we were not in a position to count all the

14 weapons that were found on site because there were so many of them and

15 because we had to transport them by helicopter to Nis, so that information

16 cannot be very precise, and after the terrain was searched, then more

17 equipment was found, and that will be documented.

18 Were there casualties there as well? I cannot see all of this.

19 A. No, there were no wounded or killed persons there. It is

20 characteristic that our estimates were that there were so many quantity --

21 so many weapons that were scattered in this large area of about one and a

22 half kilometres, and about 100 horses were required to transport all this

23 equipment from there or, rather, to there, because we saw that it was

24 brought in on horseback. We saw the hooves.

25 Q. So large quantities of weapons were found but on neither side were

Page 9395

1 there --

2 A. Any casualties. No one was killed.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, Mr. Robinson, again my

4 request is the same; tabs 24 and 25 that pertain to the border incident at

5 Gorozup when this large quantity of weapons was seized, be admitted into

6 evidence.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: 24 marked for identification pending translation,

8 and 25 admitted.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Did I understand this correctly,

10 that you do have a translation of 25?

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Yes, we have a translation.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Oh, I see. Oh, I see. Thank you.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. General Pavkovic is referred to in tab 26, the commander of the

15 Pristina Corps, General Pavkovic, as far as I can see here on the 9th of

16 May, 1998.

17 A. Yes. This is an order issued to members of the corps. All

18 military motor vehicles and civilian vehicles transporting members of the

19 corps along the Pristina-Klina up here, Klina-Pec,

20 Pristina-Klina-Djakovica are prohibited from moving along these roads

21 because of the terrorist gangs operating along those roads and in order to

22 take security measures to protect the lives of the members of the corps.

23 And in the second part it says because there are these five roads

24 between Kosovo and Metohija, these two were unsafe, so there is a

25 reference which roads could be used and that were still safe at that time.

Page 9396

1 This is the kind of orders that arrived from the corps every day.

2 And of course, during transport, we are told to abide by all

3 security measures that were contained in the previous orders. That is to

4 say that if a vehicle leaves Prizren going to Pristina, that the

5 operations duty officer has to call the operations duty officer in

6 Pristina to tell him that at such-and-such a time a vehicle set out to

7 Pristina, and then when that vehicle reaches the Dulje pass, that is the

8 last place where there can be radio communication with Prizren, then he's

9 supposed to call the duty operations officer in Pristina to say that he

10 reached the pass of Dulje, and then when he gets to the area of Stimlje,

11 he has to report to the operations centre in Pristina, that is to say the

12 operations centre of the Pristina Corps, that he crossed the -- the canyon

13 or river of Semuljeva [phoen] and that the operations centre from Pristina

14 should inform us that our vehicle safely passed along this road and

15 arrived in Pristina. That was usual procedure for every vehicle.

16 Q. Why such measures of caution? Why such measures of safety and

17 security that are referred to there?

18 A. Well, that's what had to be done because of possible attack on the

19 vehicles. And should the vehicle not appear, we know how much time would

20 be needed for it to pass that unsafe road, for us to intervene. If it

21 didn't turn up, then we could go and search for it.

22 Q. Thank you, General.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I assume that this has been

24 translated, and I'd like to tender it into evidence, tab 26.


Page 9397

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I suggest that we move on and I'd

2 like to tender tab 27 because it refers to the same sort of incidents.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Along different roads.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, along different roads.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So I'd like to tender that into

6 evidence, the corps commander for Bedza [phoen]...

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Very well. Now, what about the information by the Chief of Staff

9 of the corps, Colonel Lazarevic, the next document, to be found in tab 28,

10 General? What's that about?

11 A. Here it says that one road which was closed, that is to say the

12 road from Djakovica, Ponosevac, Junik, and Decani, the second road,

13 because there is a direct road from Djakovica to Decani, but this is an

14 asphalt road once again going across Ponosevac, Junik, and Decani, and for

15 the army it was particularly important because it was along that route

16 that the border patrols were -- received their supplies, and it had been

17 closed off the previous days. And here the chief of staff of the corps is

18 in fact informing us commanders that on the 23rd of May the road was

19 deblocked, the Djakovica, Ponosevac, and Morina border post was deblocked.

20 And it stipulates which units took part and were engaged in lifting the

21 blockade there.

22 Q. All right. Fine. Has that been translated?

23 A. It also says that five terrorists were captured.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, there is another hearing here this

25 afternoon, so we can't trespass. We have to break now. Mr. Nice, you

Page 9398

1 have a --

2 MR. NICE: Very short point. We've been going a day and a half.

3 The estimate was 12 hours or -- 12 hours, which is three sitting days.

4 We've now done one-twentieth part, by number, of the accused's exhibits.

5 Would the accused be good enough to help us with any revised estimate of

6 how long he's expecting this part of his evidence to take? It does affect

7 our preparation. If he's going to be the 20 days in chief that it would

8 appear will be taken if we proceed at this speed, we ought to know.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, that's a reasonable request. What

10 is the estimate now?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'll do my best to use the

12 time as rationally as possible but we'll be able to see that when I move

13 on to exhibits having to do with the relationship between the army and the

14 Kosovo Verification Mission, and there are a lot of documents about that.

15 So I'll ask the witness to go through all the documents collectively, all

16 together, and just to point out some characteristic features without

17 dwelling on all the documents individually. But all of them testify to

18 the continuity in this relationship.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... absolutely

20 clear that although the Chamber did not restrict the Prosecution in its

21 examination-in-chief, the Chamber retains the discretion to control the

22 proceedings, and if we take the view that you are not utilising the time

23 properly, we'll set a specific limit for the examination-in-chief.

24 We will adjourn until Wednesday of next week.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.44 p.m.,

Page 9399

1 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 29th day

2 of June, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.