Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 42160

1 Tuesday, 12 July 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, you may continue.


8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 Cross-examined by Mr. Nice: [Continued]

10 Q. We were yesterday in volume 1 at tab 9. I wonder if the witness

11 could take up volume 1 and turn to tab 10.

12 This is a report or -- yes, it's a report of yours of the 16th of

13 March. The second page in the English, and second page in the -- no,

14 first page in the Bosnian. Right at the foot of the page.

15 We see that you deal with the protests of the Siptars, as you

16 describe them, 3.000 people carrying pictures of Mother Teresa, and with

17 slogans roughly equal to "Stop the Serbian terror." I think you will

18 recognise, Mr. Delic, that there are different views about the history of

19 what happened in Kosovo. Where the Kosovo Albanians carried placards

20 saying something like "Stop the Serbian terror," was it entirely fictional

21 or was there something that they were able to refer to by that term?

22 A. Since I was born in Kosovo and Metohija and I lived there at the

23 time, one cannot say that there were any indications of what you would

24 call Serbian terror. On a day-to-day basis, there were all kinds of

25 demonstrations.

Page 42161

1 If you just look one passage below what you've just read. I

2 signed this paper, I think. Yes, I did. Nobody addressed the

3 demonstrators. There was just one person filming them on camera. The

4 person with the camera also had a goal of their own. The picture of the

5 demonstrations was supposed to tour the world for propaganda purposes.

6 And as you can see from here, nobody tried to prevent this rally. There

7 were no problems.

8 Q. Yes, I --

9 A. And on the next page, if you are still following me --

10 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... because I've let you answer

11 at length and we must be somewhat focused. I just want to know, and I'm

12 not concerned about the answer, I just want to know what your position is.

13 Was there anything at all that Serbs had done to Kosovo Albanians that

14 could explain why they carried placards saying "Stop the Serbian terror,"

15 or was it entirely fictional? I hope the question's easy for you to

16 understand.

17 A. That was something that was orchestrated and imposed from outside.

18 Q. Completely fictional.

19 A. Pure fiction. People were living freely whichever way they liked.

20 Can I just say one more thing? While we are on this page 10, look

21 at paragraph 2, the second line, 12th and 13th of March.

22 On several occasions fire was opened at Serbian and Montenegrin

23 houses. Among other things, fire was opened on this occasion on my house,

24 and that is written here. It was the house of my father. My neighbour's

25 house was targeted too. It was certainly not a rally. The houses of my

Page 42162

1 brothers were also targeted.

2 Q. Let's go to tab 14, please. This is where it can be dealt with

3 very briefly with reference to expression of fear by the -- it's on page

4 1, towards the foot of the page in English, just before paragraph 2. And

5 you can find that on page 1, and it says: "It's very likely that these

6 actions are being carried out by KLA members. There are those who plant

7 rumours among the local Albanians that their hay barns are being burned by

8 Chetniks and Arkan's Army." And you made an observation in your evidence

9 about that and about the impossibility of that.

10 You say it's impossible that their hay barns were being burnt by

11 anyone. Whether Chetniks or Arkan's army not being the point, but do you

12 say it's impossible that their hay barns were being burned, hay and barns?

13 A. Please, just one correction, if I may. You've just read that

14 somebody was burning their villages and hay barns. It's not a village.

15 It's hay. That should be corrected in the transcript.

16 Q. Again, is this just made up altogether?

17 A. That somebody was burning their hay and their barns is not true,

18 because this was going on on the ground. But if there had been Arkan's

19 troops or some sort of Chetniks, that was absolutely impossible. This was

20 designed to create fear among Albanians who did not join the KLA and to

21 force them in this way to join the KLA, because a considerable number of

22 Albanians at the time was against the KLA.

23 Q. Just move on to tab 16, and we'll look at that briefly. It's an

24 order of yours, I think, or a report of yours. A report of yours.

25 And --

Page 42163

1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: In the previous

2 answer, the beginning of the answer, somebody was burning their hay and

3 barns, that is true.


5 Q. Now, it was in respect of tab 16, it may not be in the document

6 itself, but it was when you were telling us about tab 16 that you told us

7 this in answer to the accused: "Any contact with civilians --" this is

8 speaking of yourself, or the army. "Any contact with civilians is outside

9 the competencies of the army. That's something that the police is

10 authorised to do. They can check identities, and they can issue warnings,

11 but the army doesn't do that."

12 You said that in the context of a question about journalists, but

13 does this answer of yours, given in relation to a document that was March

14 1998, reflect again the recognition that in the absence of a state of

15 emergency, the army and the civilians have nothing to do with one another?

16 A. I said what you just quoted on another occasion, but I can answer

17 this question as well. It's all the same.

18 First of all, you see that there is no army involved in this

19 operation. Tab 16 refers to a purely MUP activity. In the army, there is

20 a part of the troops called the unit of the military police, and they have

21 the same powers as MUP. They, therefore, are authorised to contact with

22 citizens in relation to certain acts. But as for contact between the army

23 and civilians, that applies to operations involving combat.

24 If the army were acting in support of the MUP, then it was the MUP

25 who had direct contact with civilians. But I'm not saying we never had

Page 42164

1 any contact. I personally contacted civilians. Why wouldn't I if I know

2 their language and they understand me and if we need to communicate about

3 a particular thing? But due to the nature of the MUP's job, it was always

4 they who contacted with the civilians.

5 Q. Just looking at tab 16 itself, by the way, before I move to my

6 next point, and the Court can see it at the first page, as can you,

7 Mr. Delic, it says this: "It was characteristic that there were foreign

8 journalists in the sector where the operation was carried out, probably

9 inside the houses of terrorists, filming only when MUP members opened fire

10 and took action and the population fleeing from the surrounding villages

11 to the woods. They did not film the actions of the terrorists," in

12 relation to a particular incident.

13 Is it your belief and position that foreign journalists were

14 always capable of being deceived, or is it your position that they were

15 engaged in some kind of conspiracy to advance false accounts? What is it?

16 A. You know that there are all sorts of journalists. I believe I

17 mentioned a journalist here, Sali Beqe [phoen], who took the liberty of

18 actually crossing the state border together with the terrorists in a group

19 that was combatting our border units. So there were all sorts of

20 journalists, including freelancers who write independently to reporters of

21 particular televisions and newspapers.

22 On the 17th of July, 1998, as terrorists were attacking Orahovac,

23 one foreign television filmed this, and I have some of their recordings.

24 So there were journalists who would come to the country in all sorts of

25 ways, legally or illegally, and then followed the terrorists in their

Page 42165

1 activities. This applies especially to journalists and televisions from

2 Albania, because they, in their news bulletins, regularly reported on

3 events from Kosovo and Metohija.

4 Q. As to so-called Western, which I suppose means American and

5 Western European journalists, do you say that they were all misled by the

6 KLA or that they were all involved in a conspiracy?

7 A. You can never lump everyone together and say that they were all

8 part of a conspiracy. There were television companies and newspapers who

9 objectively tried to monitor events in our country, but there were also

10 journalists, especially from Albania, who write -- who wrote in a biased

11 way.

12 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... journalism, there was a

13 television programme produced in Serbia called The Serb Version of the

14 Split, I think, in 2000. Did you see that programme? I think it was in

15 probably more than one part. Did you see that programme?

16 A. Which television showed that?

17 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

18 A. At what time also?

19 Q. I can't recall the date and time at the moment, but is it

20 critical? Can you remember a programme that was The Serb Version of the

21 Split?

22 A. Even if this programme was in 2000, I did watch certain programmes

23 but not in 2000. I watched them in 2004.

24 Q. And in 1998, what position was General Pavkovic in relation to

25 you?

Page 42166

1 A. In 1998, General Pavkovic was the commander of the Pristina Corps,

2 and I was commander of the 549th Brigade. He was my superior commander.

3 Q. And of course General Perisic was the Chief of the General Staff;

4 correct?

5 A. Yes, General Perisic was at the time Chief of the General Staff of

6 the army of Yugoslavia.

7 Q. Let's just look at a couple of very short clips.

8 MR. NICE: Oh, yes, the transcripts are available. Your Honour,

9 these are clips 8 and 9 we're going to be looking at at the moment.

10 [Videotape played]

11 MR. NICE: So that was, we saw, General Pavkovic, and what he said

12 was that the attitude of the General Staff was that the army shouldn't

13 interfere in those matters. Terrorism is to be dealt with by MUP.

14 Can we look at the next one.

15 [Videotape played]

16 MR. NICE:

17 Q. So we there saw the Chief of the General Staff explaining that the

18 army was waiting for a decision from the Assembly and from the Supreme

19 Defence Council before the army could get involved. Was that your

20 understanding on the ground of what was happening? He [Realtime

21 transcript read in error "you"] said that the decisions were blocked by

22 Milosevic. Was that your understanding of the position on the ground?

23 A. Well, look, the situation on the ground was so hard, and of course

24 I lived it every day, unlike Perisic who visited the territory of Kosovo

25 and Metohija maybe once a month.

Page 42167

1 May I describe to you my meeting with Perisic in this context?

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a second. Just to correct the transcript

3 which has you said that the decisions were blocked by Milosevic which

4 should be he said --

5 MR. NICE: Sorry, he said the decision, yes -- Your Honour is

6 quite right, the decisions were blocked by Milosevic.

7 Q. As to your suggestion of mentioning your encounter with Perisic,

8 what date?

9 A. It was in end May 1998 when he came to visit my unit together with

10 the commander of the 3rd Army, General Samardzic.

11 Q. We'll take that when we reach -- if it's material, we'll at least

12 take it when we reach May of 1998, but at the moment -- well, just two

13 things. You explained that you looked at television programmes in 2004,

14 presumably when you were preparing evidence. Did you see this programme

15 containing these and other interviews with Pavkovic and Perisic?

16 A. The programme that I saw in 2004 was called The War That Could

17 Have Been Avoided, and you can see a lot of foreign protagonists in that

18 programme, people who had a considerable and negative impact on the

19 aggression on Yugoslavia. But those short excerpts that you just showed,

20 I had occasion to see them already, but probably not in 2000; a bit later.

21 Q. And I just simply want to know, do they depict maybe the

22 frustration of the army on the ground, that everyone was waiting for

23 action to be taken to allow the army to intervene?

24 A. No, the army was not frustrated. The army, just as the population

25 in the entire territory of Kosovo and Metohija, was seriously endangered

Page 42168

1 by terrorism. Incidents were happening on the road. A large chunk of

2 territory was controlled by terrorists. Murders happened on a daily

3 basis.

4 Q. On your account the army didn't and indeed couldn't intervene,

5 could it?

6 A. At that time, and this talks also about the beginning of 1998, we

7 reported to our superiors. You can see these reports under tabs 10 to 16.

8 All of these are my reports to the corps commander, and it always says

9 "Attention: Corps commander or Chief of Staff," so they should know how

10 hard the situation is in my area.

11 MR. NICE: Let's see how things developed. If we can look now,

12 please, at clip 11. This is going to be Pavkovic, again, following a

13 passage by a narrator.

14 [Videotape played]

15 MR. NICE:

16 Q. Now, same television programme, something that you've seen before.

17 Something that you've seen before, Mr. Delic, this passage?

18 A. Yes, yes, I've seen this before, the commander.

19 Q. And what General Pavkovic made clear is that during 1998 the

20 circle of hatred was spreading, executions and mass graves were

21 increasing, and the VJ was getting involved in various ways. One is

22 logistic, but it was also getting involved, in 1998, by support with arms

23 fire in specific regions.

24 Well, now, first of all, is General Pavkovic right that in 1998

25 the army was giving fire support to the police?

Page 42169

1 A. Please, let me just correct what you've said at the very outset.

2 Now you're saying what the commentator said here. You're saying that

3 General Pavkovic said it. It was the broadcaster who said hatred was

4 spreading, that there were a lot of killings. General Pavkovic was only

5 saying -- that has to be distinguished.

6 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... that's what I'm interested

7 in.

8 A. What General Pavkovic said is quite correct. It pertains to the

9 second half of 1998, when practically half of the territory of Kosovo and

10 Metohija was under the control of the terrorists and when the terrorists

11 held practically all the roads in Kosovo and Metohija and hindered not

12 only military transportation but also civilians could not freely travel in

13 their own country. They would be kidnapped, especially Serbs and

14 Albanians who were loyal citizens of Serbia and who worked in state

15 institutions. In a country that was free, no one could travel from

16 Prizren to Pristina or from Pec to Pristina and be sure that they would

17 not be killed or kidnapped along the way.

18 I fully agree with everything that General Pavkovic said.

19 Q. Thank you. We'll move chronologically so far as I'm able to

20 arrange that. Would you be good enough to go to tab 17. We still don't

21 have a translation of this. Oh, yes, we do.

22 This is just a question about a document, because I think this may

23 have been the first document where we explored the certification by

24 Colonel Markovic, which we see at the end of the document, and in respect

25 of which you explained that Markovic was one of those who produced these

Page 42170

1 excerpts, this and the subsequent one. I'm not really interested in the

2 document itself particularly, save for this: If we look at the original

3 of the document, as you'll be looking at it, and if the learned Judges

4 observe what can be seen in the various markings on the English, we'll see

5 that the material has simply been redacted, blanked out, so that we only

6 see part of the document. Now, what's all that about, or are you quite

7 unable to tell us?

8 A. I can tell you because I was interested in the same thing. This

9 is a document from the security administration. This document was

10 submitted to the Prosecutor's office over two years ago. I submitted it

11 to the investigator who was investigating Siptar crimes.

12 As for this that is blanked out, Mr. Markovic made an excerpt from

13 this document, from those parts of security reports that pertain to my

14 zone only.

15 As for what is blanked out, it was said that all portions where

16 names are mentioned of Siptars who cooperated with the service, in order

17 to protect them, and also -- their names would be blanked out, and also

18 their places of residence so they could not be identified.

19 Q. Do you know if it ever occurred to the commission or the committee

20 group of officers sitting around the table or anybody else doing this

21 exercise in document production that the question of whether names of

22 informers should be available to the Prosecution would -- should

23 ultimately, in courts like this, be a matter for the court itself? Did

24 that ever occur to anybody preparing this material?

25 A. As far as the security service is concerned, they have their own

Page 42171

1 methods, and I'm not aware of them. They have their own connections.

2 They have their own informers, and they're duty-bound to protect them.

3 Q. It didn't occur to them or to you or to anybody else that the

4 question of redacting documents, and although this relates to a KLA issue

5 in 1998 and may not be material, there's redactions right through these

6 documents, never occurred to anyone that this was a matter that ought

7 first to be raised with the court to see if these documents could be

8 presented in redacted form?

9 A. This document was written or, rather, prepared for the

10 Prosecutor's office, and the investigator who talked to me about this

11 absolutely did not insist on knowing who these informers were.

12 Discovering the names of the informers would quite simply mean their

13 death.

14 Anyway, many persons who cooperated with Serbs or the state organs

15 of Serbia in 1998 and 1999 were killed, all the way up to the present day.

16 MR. NICE: Your Honours, the point I'm trying to make through the

17 witness and he hasn't answered it, I'm not going to ask it again, may be a

18 point that relates to range of documents where you'll find editing marks

19 of the same kind. I'll draw your attention to them from time to time.

20 You've probably already seen them in the papers.

21 Q. Can we move on now, please, to tab 20. Now, again, I'm not

22 particularly interested in tab 20 itself. We can scan it indeed. It's an

23 interim report on a border incident, and we can see its format which has

24 participants in the event.

25 MR. NICE: And if the Court goes over to the second page, it sees a

Page 42172

1 narrative of events set out with names and places and activities.

2 Q. Mr. Delic, is this form of report by the military - it's a report

3 of your brigade - is this report a standard form of report for a serious

4 incident?

5 A. Through the documents you could see the different types of reports

6 that existed, but it's important that participants in the event concerned

7 are referred to, the description of the event concerned, and the measures

8 taken.

9 Q. And of course in the event of casualties, fatalities or injuries,

10 they are identified. In the event of --

11 A. If there is any such thing, then an investigating judge is called

12 in. The investigating judge comes to the scene.

13 Q. And the army, if it's involved as it was at this border incident,

14 will have provided a full and detailed report, built on all its records,

15 setting out its version of what happened.

16 A. Since the incident was on the border, then the local mixed

17 commission was also informed. These commissions had their own sectors.

18 Here it is commission number 4 that calls from the other side the Albanian

19 local commission number 4 to attend the on-site investigation with regard

20 to that particular incident. That was the type of practice that existed

21 in peacetime.

22 Q. You see, the reason I ask you this question is as follows: Racak

23 was outside your area, wasn't it? Not very far outside, but it was

24 outside.

25 A. Yes.

Page 42173












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 42174

1 Q. We've seen the senior policeman, now General, Radosavljevic,

2 making it clear that the VJ were involved at Racak. That's not for you to

3 decide. It's for the Judges, of course. But if the VJ were involved in a

4 proper operation at Racak, would it be reasonable to assume that a report

5 of at least this detail should exist somewhere in the army files?

6 A. There are different reports in relation to Racak. I believe that

7 the commander of the army unit, whose individual members were not in Racak

8 but in the immediate vicinity of Racak but on the other side of the road

9 in cooperation with the OSCE agreement, will come to this courtroom and

10 testify. But I talked to the OSCE people, Krsman Jelic --

11 Q. Thank you. And --

12 A. -- Commander of the 243rd Brigade.

13 Q. Thank you. And his report, have you --

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic?

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I just add what's missing from

16 the transcript? The witness said General Krsman Jelic.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: It is impossible to record

18 everything that's said if there is more than one speaker at the time.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am commander of one brigade, he is

20 the commander of another brigade. I simply see no reason for me to read

21 his reports. As for Mr. Guri, he was commander, or perhaps not even a

22 full-fledged commander but the leader of a unit that was of a lower rank.

23 He could not even have communication with the army. At that time he held

24 the rank of major.

25 MR. NICE:

Page 42175

1 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

2 A. And as for the MUP is concerned, it is the head of the Secretariat

3 of the Ministry of the Interior from Urosevac that can speak about this

4 particular action.

5 Q. Thank you for the answers you've given. All I wanted from you.

6 When you were dealing with tab 21, we needn't revisit it, it's a

7 video, but you did make the point that the 53rd Border Battalion based in

8 Djakovica and directly attached to the Pristina Corps was responsible to

9 you in the disciplinary sense because it was based in the same barracks.

10 Now, you didn't go on to amplify that, but perhaps you just could

11 explain that. What were your range of responsibilities for the 53rd

12 Border Battalion based in Djakovica?

13 A. The 53rd Border Battalion based in Djakovica was in my barracks.

14 He -- it received orders from the Pristina Corps and sent reports to the

15 Pristina Corps. However, since it is in my barracks, as for the

16 discipline of its soldiers in the barracks and in town, it was responsible

17 to my battalion commander who was in the Djakovica garrison. Further on,

18 I was responsible for their logistics, for their supplies, because they

19 had very small logistics units of their own, and it is from my warehouses

20 that they got food, weapons, clothing, and whatever else they needed.

21 Another responsibility I had in respect of that battalion was that

22 if that unit is attacked on the border with strong forces, that I give

23 them assistance.

24 As for discipline and as for logistics, they were responsible

25 towards me.

Page 42176

1 Q. Very well. So if they did something wrong, you'd be the person

2 who would have to discipline them.

3 A. Only my unit had the military police. So all events, border

4 incidents and others, were dealt with by my military police unit. They

5 documented it and they reported it to the Pristina Corps regardless of

6 whether it had to do with my unit or the 53rd Border Battalion.

7 Q. And was -- were they co-extensive with what -- was their area

8 co-extensive with yours?

9 A. They were responsible for the border only. In my barracks in

10 Djakovica, they had only a small part of their personnel. I think they

11 had about 12 border posts. We could count them here. They had border

12 posts that were taken up all the time, and they had the type of border

13 posts that we called summer border posts in the mountains. Most of the

14 personnel of that battalion was on the border posts all the time providing

15 security for the border, and only a small part, the intervention company

16 and the training company for training young border soldiers who came to do

17 their military service at the border, only they were in my barracks.

18 Q. Just this: All their border posts were within your general area

19 of responsibility, or did they extend beyond it?

20 A. Well, most of the border posts were in my zone, or to be more

21 precise, from Mitar Vojinovic, which is a border post on the north, all

22 the way down to the border post of Likane, which is near Mount Pastrik.

23 Those border posts of theirs were in my zone of responsibility.

24 Q. And the ones that were outside of your responsibility, were they

25 further to the north? On which side?

Page 42177

1 A. Yes, they were to the north, further to the north, from Mitar

2 Vojinovic, the next one is Morina, then Kosare, Koznjar, and so on and so

3 forth. Then further up north and towards Mount Prokuplje, its highest

4 peak Djerevica, that was in the area of responsibility of the 125th

5 Motorised Brigade.

6 Q. Thank you very much. Tab 22, please. Now, this document, which

7 we looked at briefly, is an order for the deployment of stand-by forces.

8 And if we go to 3.2, it says on English page 2, set up in-depth state

9 border security, and in a joint action with the MUP and the 549, block

10 routes and then smash and destroy the DTG and other forces.

11 Did this order at this date represent a change of gear for the

12 involvement of the army in any way?

13 A. There's no change. This is an order which meant that the army

14 left the barracks for the first time to three different localities. As

15 far as my brigade is concerned, they went to three different localities

16 outside the barracks. If necessary, we can find the right map and show

17 this on the map, because we've already had a look at it.

18 Q. You're now engaged in smashing, as we can see, and destroying the

19 DTG and other forces. How were you doing that, by the ambush points on

20 the borders?

21 A. You didn't read this right. This is the first time that the

22 troops went out into the area, and it says that the troops should be on

23 the ready, standing by for in-depth security of the state border and for

24 dealing with possible attacks on military facilities and smashing forces

25 in Koritnik, Suva Reka, Pastrik and so on, in concert with the MUP of

Page 42178

1 Serbia. That is the only thing that is referred to here, that the army

2 should be on the ready, but they do not have to engage in such activity.

3 Everything that is mentioned here has to do with the border.

4 Q. I was reading, I thought -- maybe the translation is a problem,

5 but I was reading from 3.2 and I thought it said -- or it says in English

6 "smash and destroy the DTG and other groups," and that was the order, I

7 think. Does this not amount to an order to relate to whoever you could

8 find in the form of that group?

9 A. You said you were reading 3.2, paragraph 3.2?

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. 3.2 does not pertain to my unit. It pertains to the 55th Border

12 Battalion, and 55th Border Battalion is on the state border itself, since

13 weapons were being carried over very intensively and all their activities

14 are geared towards preventing this bringing in of weapons.

15 Q. Well, now, as to your group, what was your group's functions?

16 Shall we go over to 4.2.1?

17 A. Yes. That's my decision, from point 4.1 until 4.2.3. My units

18 are given an assignment here.

19 Q. We see the same language there, don't we, in 4.2.1. Your units

20 were to smash the forces of armed rebellion and infiltrated DTG on the

21 following axis: Pastrik-Prizren-Suva Reka. Had the intention already

22 become clear to eliminate people when you found them?

23 A. Well, you're even misreading this text. What is a key point here

24 is to be on stand-by, on the ready. And then it says here for what; for

25 in-depth security of the state border. That is the first task. The

Page 42179

1 second one is intervene in the direction of threatened military features.

2 And then it's the depot of Ljubizda, the depot of Djinovci, and the

3 barracks, and smash the forces of armed rebellion and infiltrated groups

4 on the following axes, those that lead from the border to the territory

5 in-depth. So until the 17th of July the army was not engaged at all and

6 this is dated the 22nd of April, as you can see.

7 Q. And finally, 4.5.5, or the second to last point on this document.

8 4.5.5, please. The preparation with anti-nuclear, chemical and biological

9 measures. Were there biological measures within your brigade's capacity

10 and capability?

11 A. Well, of course such things do not exist in my country at all let

12 alone in my brigade. How could I have them in my brigade? These are

13 general measures in terms of anti-nuclear, chemical and biological

14 defence, self-reliance, relying on one's own resources that every stand-by

15 soldier has.

16 Q. Let's just go to the last part of the document, very last

17 sentence. "File reports every day at 0600 hours --"

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson. Mr. Nice is putting

19 questions improperly, and the witness did not notice that. Mr. Nice is

20 talking about some kind of weapons, but this does not have to do with

21 weapons at all. These are protective measures from chemical weapons.

22 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ...

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood what Mr. Nice was

24 saying.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Well, the witness answered. Let us move

Page 42180

1 on.


3 Q. The last part of the document is: "File reports every day at 0600

4 hours on the situation at 0530, and to the duty operations officer at 2200

5 hours on the situation at 2100 hours, and interim ones as necessary."

6 Was that the sort of standard of daily reporting that you expected

7 from your subordinate groups throughout the various incidents that you've

8 been telling us, telling us of?

9 A. I'm saying that at this time incidents occurred only at the

10 border. This is customary form. The time of reporting is given, and then

11 this reporting that is referred to here is oral, by telephone, and there

12 have to be these deadlines so that written reports could be sent to the

13 superior command.

14 Q. We would then have passed over or reached Ashdown. Unfortunately,

15 I find that I've not mislaid but I must have left in my room some of the

16 papers I need for that so I'll come back to it after the break. But we

17 can move on to tab 45, which is potentially related and we'll come back to

18 Ashdown after the break. Would you go to tab 45, please.

19 Now, here is a very urgent document, and it comes from Major

20 General Negosav Nikolic, and it goes to the -- from the command at the

21 Pristina Corps. He says this: "Considering that it is expected that

22 numerous delegations of diplomatic representatives, observer missions,

23 representatives of humanitarian organisations -" and so on - "will visit

24 the territory of Kosovo, and as they tour certain areas according to their

25 own plans and without announcement, in order to prevent opening fire on

Page 42181

1 the sectors in which the said persons might happen to be..."

2 You then go on to say the following or, rather, the order goes on

3 to say the following: "... prohibit opening fire from artillery weapons...

4 without the approval of the Corps Command.

5 "Fire may be opened from other types of weapons only if the

6 brigade commander deems this appropriate in order to neutralise targets

7 that are a threat to human lives, such as: bunkers, buildings in which

8 there are no civilians and other facilities from which fire is opened from

9 mortars and other weapons ..."

10 And then in 3, it says: "Open fire on siptar terrorist forces

11 only if you have reliable information that diplomatic representatives and

12 observer missions are not present in their combat formation. Abstain from

13 opening fire as much as possible, and only do so in case of extreme need."

14 What does that tell us, please, Mr. Delic?

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is --

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, the interpreter who is

19 interpreting into Serbian is reading the Serbian text, the original, which

20 is right, but the English translation says -- "[In English] ... observer

21 missions are not present in their combat formation," [Interpretation] and

22 so on. The translation has completely omitted a particular section, and

23 that's why I insist that you give me a recording because the translations

24 are catastrophic and malicious.

25 The buildings where there are no -- where there's no civilian

Page 42182

1 population, that was totally omitted. And there is particular emphasis on

2 that. Mr. Nice quoted that from the English translation. It's not in the

3 transcript, and it says here right in front of me, and the interpreter was

4 reading out this paragraph, too, that is to say this can be carried out

5 "... only if the brigade commander deems this appropriate in order to

6 neutralise targets that are a threat to human lives, such as: bunkers,

7 buildings in which there are no civilians," and so on and so forth.

8 MR. NICE: Your Honour, before we deal --

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: What paragraph is that? That's paragraph 3? 2?

10 MR. NICE: 2. But, Your Honour, before we deal with that, I

11 would --

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Paragraph 2 that you quoted and that

13 I heard in Serbian from the interpreter, but in the English text that is

14 missing.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. -- Mr. Milosevic, irrespective of how this is

16 to be dealt with, I cannot allow you to say, as you said, that the

17 interpretation is malicious. A mistake may be made, and if a mistake is

18 made it is only human to err, and we'll do our best to correct it. But to

19 say that it is malicious, that it was prompted by improper motives, is

20 without foundation.

21 Now, what are you saying? You're saying that the interpreter

22 omitted a reference to "civilians"?

23 JUDGE KWON: I don't follow what is missing.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is missing? Let us just have it clear.

25 What is missing? What is missing from the interpretation, Mr. Milosevic?

Page 42183

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I told you that I heard the

2 interpreter reading the Serbian translation from the document. What is in

3 the Serbian text is not in the transcript. I did not listen to Serbian

4 and English at the same time.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: And what exactly is missing? What's the phrase

6 that's missing that you're complaining of?

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What is missing in the transcript

8 are the words that refer to the fact that only facilities where there are

9 no civilians can be targeted. This civilian population reference was

10 completely omitted. This is the commander's order, saying that people

11 were moving about unannounced and that therefore fire cannot be opened,

12 that only firing targets can be engaged, but to be sure not to open fire

13 at facilities where there is civilian population. And that is a very

14 important thing.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Now, Mr. Nice, you were reading from

16 paragraph 2, and the interpreter was interpreting what you were reading

17 from paragraph 2.

18 MR. NICE: I assume so, yes.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: That may be the -- that may be the problem. The

20 passage that you said was omitted is in our text in --

21 JUDGE KWON: It's not omitted. I don't think it's omitted. I

22 checked the transcript and it appeared, so I'm a bit confused.

23 MR. NICE: Well, Your Honour, it seems to me that after this

24 diversion it's clear that the text is in both documents. As far as I'm

25 concerned, I read it out, and with your leave I'll press on with the next

Page 42184

1 question.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Let's move on, then, yes.


4 Q. Let's go to back, then, to what I was actually asking you about,

5 Mr. Delic, which is paragraph 3. And in case you've forgotten it, I'll

6 read it slowly and in full.

7 "Open fire on Siptar terrorist forces only if you have reliable

8 information that diplomatic representatives and observer missions are not

9 present in their combat formation. Abstain from opening fire as much as

10 possible and only do so in case of extreme need."

11 Why was it necessary to change what you would be saying was

12 entirely lawful conduct because of the presence of international observers

13 apart, of course, from to respect their safety?

14 A. You are just taking one order here, whereas there are dozens of

15 orders governing the opening of fire on Siptar terrorists. This is quite

16 normal if diplomatic representatives are coming, and our state is

17 answerable for their security, we have to take care, even at the cost of

18 Siptar terrorists targeting our units, as long as there are no losses

19 incurred on the mission.

20 Second, it is prohibited to fire from any of these enumerated

21 weapons without an order directly from the corps commander. So even I as

22 brigade commander can issue such an order. The next aim is to protect

23 civilian population.

24 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... focus of my question. And in

25 case you can't remember it, I'll read it to you again. Why was it

Page 42185

1 necessary to change what you would be saying was entirely lawful conduct

2 because of the presence of international observers, apart, of course, from

3 to respect their safety? Now, that's the question.

4 A. There is an undertone to your question that is unfair. You seem

5 to imply that we acted until that time without any restriction and now we

6 are introducing restrictions.

7 The opening of fire was always restricted to sources of fire, to

8 terrorists acting against our units. It was never allowed to open fire at

9 buildings, and it says here that it is even prohibited to target a

10 building from which terrorists are firing if there are civilians inside.

11 And it also says that units should be contained to the maximum in opening

12 fire. I believe this order is quite normal in any professional army,

13 including your own.

14 Q. It's not an undertone. It was going to be the subject of my next

15 question, and you anticipated it in your answer to a degree.

16 This document gives the game away, doesn't it, because by July of

17 1998, death of Kosovo Albanians had become something that was easy to

18 bring about from time to time and something that the police and the army

19 were prepared to accept as an incident of what they were doing, but with

20 observers around, you had to be more careful. Is that the truth?

21 A. What you're saying is absolutely untrue. It has nothing to do

22 with reality. I was there and you were not, Mr. Nice, and what you are

23 saying are pure insinuations.

24 The army acted in a professional manner, just as the Ministry of

25 the Interior, at all times. And while you are speaking about the

Page 42186

1 Albanians who were killed, please give me a number. How many Albanians

2 were killed in one month, the next month, the month after next, and where?

3 You cannot find such data because that did not happen, so the data does

4 not exist.

5 Q. Let's just look at another small clip. I may have to expand this

6 clip later, but I'll look at it now in its present form from the same

7 film, again General Pavkovic. Sorry. It's clip number 13. I'm grateful

8 to Ms. Dicklich.

9 [Videotape played]

10 MR. NICE:

11 Q. Now, we may need to expand on the meaning of activities, but you

12 saw there General Pavkovic making it clear that one of the obstacles that

13 was being faced was the presence of the eyes of the international

14 community on what you were all doing. Did that affect the way you

15 conducted yourself, Mr. Delic?

16 A. As far as my conduct is concerned, whether there were any

17 observers around or not, my conduct was always soldierly and professional,

18 and the observers did not influence that in any way. They were an

19 additional burden in the sense that I also had to worry about their

20 security. And my professionalism cannot be affected by any presence of

21 the observers and it cannot be questioned, today or in the future.

22 Q. And can we then go to the next volume, please, of exhibits, tab

23 71. This is still in July of 1998, and it's an order, I think, from your

24 brigade, and it relates to the -- I'm so sorry. You haven't found it.

25 This document, if you have it there, I see it's highlighted so --

Page 42187












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 42188

1 oh, no. Tab 71. I see you've highlighted it, so you've read it. Indeed,

2 it looks like you've highlighted the same part I'm interested in.

3 It says: "Since numerous delegations of diplomatic

4 representatives, monitoring missions, representatives of humanitarian

5 organisations, local and foreign journalists are expected to visit certain

6 areas in Kosovo according to their own plans and without advance notice,

7 in order to prevent opening fire on sectors where these people might find

8 themselves ... I hereby order:

9 "1. I hereby strictly forbid opening fire with 122-millimetre

10 calibre artillery pieces and 100-millimetre tank guns without the

11 authorisation of this command."

12 May we take it, then, that you had been spending those rounds in

13 the period and up until the 9th of July, 1998? Large calibre weapons --

14 A. As you can see, this order of mine is associated with the order

15 you read previously.

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. My order is a follow-up of the order dated the 7th of July. I

18 received an order from the corps command, and I'm writing an order to my

19 units. I do not mention calibres others -- other than those I have. And

20 this is the month of July.

21 Up to the 17th of July, no tank projectile and no artillery shell

22 was fired from my brigade. So until the 18th, actually, of July. And you

23 see that the order is very similar to or identical to the order I received

24 from the corps.

25 Q. Now, have we -- we've passed, I think, the date of your meeting

Page 42189

1 with General Perisic that you wanted to tell us about, but perhaps we'll

2 just make available to you first of all his letter of the 23rd of July of

3 1998, and you can comment on that. And then if there's something relevant

4 in your meeting in May, then of course you must have an opportunity to

5 tell us about that too.

6 This is already an exhibit, twice, I think. 469, tab 23 is one

7 instance.

8 It's a long letter. You're familiar with it, I assume?

9 A. I'm not familiar with the letter.

10 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... some detail --

11 A. -- I was not --

12 Q. "Having analysed," he says, your relations with the Yugoslav army,

13 "I find it necessary to present you with a few facts ..."

14 Next paragraph: "I hope you've been convinced of its high

15 military and political awareness," et cetera.

16 I move to the next paragraph to save time: "However, we would not

17 be correct and sincere in the fateful circumstances if as professionals

18 who have preserved the army and the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia under

19 conditions of which you are aware, we were not to furnish you with the

20 following negative facts:

21 "Constant tendency to use the VJ outside the institutions of the

22 system;

23 "Separating VJ units from the Yugoslav army;

24 "Attempting to command VJ units by unauthorised persons;

25 "Bypassing levels of command in official talks with VJ members;

Page 42190

1 "Conducting personal policies on an illegitimate basis and

2 groundless foundations;

3 "Supplying material extra-legally ..."

4 Before we look on, does that fit with your understanding of events

5 in the summer of 1998, that there was using the VJ outside the system,

6 separating units from the army, bypassing levels of command?

7 A. The knowledge that I gained on the ground is quite contrary to

8 what is written here, but I could only speak about the level of the

9 Pristina Corps and the level of my brigade. None of these things that are

10 written here apply. Perhaps this is a reference to some higher levels.

11 Everything that was done on the level of the Pristina Corps and my brigade

12 was in keeping with the rules.

13 Q. He says this under the next paragraph, specific examples: "The

14 tendency to use the VJ outside the institutions of the system.

15 "The situation in Kosovo could have been avoided by the

16 introduction of a state of" - must be state of emergency - "promptly on

17 the 20th of April, 1998 - when I submitted a written proposal to you ...

18 Since this was not accepted by you, the situation has escalated and so

19 representatives of the Ministry of the Interior, you too, sought the use

20 of the VJ, some smaller units were used directly and indirectly, which is

21 from a legal aspect against the law..."

22 Now, Mr. Delic, two points: First of all, does that accord with

23 your recollection of events?

24 A. I know my unit, and this does not reflect the reality. I believe

25 that Mr. Perisic overstepped his authority as Chief of General Staff

Page 42191

1 because he seems to be lecturing here about state affairs. He is a

2 soldier, not a politician.

3 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

4 A. In order to introduce a state of emergency --

5 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... come back in a minute.

6 Pausing there. Do you remember I asked you yesterday whether you, if

7 you'd been instructed by Pavkovic in the year 2000 without a state of

8 emergency to take the tanks onto the street, you said you wouldn't, you

9 would have disobeyed the order. Are you saying it was wrong for General

10 Perisic to draw to this accused's attention the legal requirements for the

11 situation in which he found himself?

12 A. His powers including report -- included reporting to Mr. Milosevic

13 about the situation on the ground and to submit proposals but not to

14 lecture. This letter sounds as if a subordinate were lecturing his

15 superior, and at the end of the day, Mr. Perisic was a traitor to his

16 country. He betrayed his country, and I don't want to discuss him any

17 more.

18 Q. Don't you? Well, you'll answer the questions, if you'd be so

19 good, that I'll put to you on the basis of this letter.

20 "(b): So that the relevant and professional conclusions of the

21 session of the Supreme Defence Council on the 9th of June, 1998 might be

22 implemented, we requested the FRY government to assure us (by proclaiming

23 one of the states: Of emergency, or immediate threat of war or war)

24 legitimate material and financial resources ... that has not, to date,

25 been done, which means that any engagement of the VJ in combat operations

Page 42192

1 outside the border zone ... is still illegal - with possible consequences

2 unforeseeable."

3 In that paragraph was your Chief of General Staff not seeking to

4 support the army, ensure that it was properly resourced and activated

5 according to the law?

6 A. The army was always engaged in accordance with the law. The rules

7 of service envisage engagement of the army in several situations. First,

8 in the case of natural or major disasters on the territory, in which case

9 the decision on the use of the army can be taken by the brigade commander.

10 Second, in case of the holding of large rallies, sports events, and

11 similar. And third, the army of Yugoslavia may be used in fighting

12 terrorist and renegade groups, and the army did that. So that is

13 envisaged by the rules of service, and that does not require the

14 introduction of any state of emergency.

15 The state of emergency is something to be proclaimed by the

16 Assembly. One man cannot lecture the Assembly. He can only suggest, and

17 that is linked with a number of others, international, political and other

18 problems that are associated with a state of emergency, which in itself

19 restricts the rights of citizens.

20 Q. The rules of service, as you will be able to confirm, are internal

21 military secret documents and they're not public documents, are they?

22 A. What do you mean? Which rules of engagement? There are no such

23 rules. There are combat rules, and there is a rule of service. There is

24 a rule of service, and you certainly have it here. I even think that my

25 administration submitted it to you through the National Council for

Page 42193

1 Cooperation, the rules of service for the army of Yugoslavia.

2 Q. You've suggested that the army could be engaged in these

3 circumstances legitimately under the rules of service. That's what our

4 translation says. I'm going to suggest to you that the rules of service

5 were a secret document, and even if they were signed by this accused they

6 couldn't pass or surpass the constitution. Do you accept that?

7 A. The rule of service is not a secret document. It is an internal

8 document. That means it has the lowest level of confidentiality of all

9 the documents we have. That means it may be available to institutions

10 other than the army. It is not at all secret. There is nothing secret

11 about it because every soldier who comes to do his military service can

12 read it so that he can behave in the way required by the rule of service.

13 Q. Let's go down in General Perisic's letter, because the Court has

14 seen it before. We don't need to go through it all, but of course if you

15 want to look at it, you're entitled to do so I think in these

16 circumstances, but let's go down to paragraph 3, shall we, where he turns

17 to the particular problem of attempting to command the VJ by unauthorised

18 persons. He says this: "The constant desire of members of the MUP that

19 we subordinate a VJ unit to them causes disputes if it is not permitted

20 them, if one is granted them then it is used purposelessly and

21 unprofessionally, which proves counterproductive. The best example is

22 Decani and Orahovac."

23 A. We can stop here for a moment, because Orahovac is in my area.

24 What happened in Decani, I don't know, but as far as Orahovac is

25 concerned, I know all about it.

Page 42194

1 Q. Well, then, please tell us, because however much you may

2 disapprove of the Chief of General Staff lecturing this accused, it's hard

3 to think of him, is it not, writing something without a foundation in

4 fact. So what was he in July 1998 writing about so far as Orahovac was

5 concerned? You must be able to help us.

6 A. From this point A, one is supposed to conclude that the liberation

7 of Orahovac town involved the MUP commanding my unit. Mr. Nice, not you,

8 not Perisic, nobody in this courtroom was in Orahovac. Only I was, both

9 on the 18th and the 19th, and I know what happened minute by minute.

10 Perisic did not clarify the issue of Orahovac in detail. He just

11 mentioned it in passing. My unit was there, and directly under my command

12 supported MUP forces which liberated Orahovac from terrorists. I even

13 have a video recording here about the liberation of Orahovac. One part

14 was recorded by the Siptars, and another part was recorded from our side.

15 There were certain forces of the MUP there. There was a part of my unit

16 acting in support. At no point did anybody from the MUP, because I was

17 there as brigade commander and the MUP was represented only by

18 lower-ranking commanding officers, their chief of secretariat was in

19 Prizren, I was commanding my unit. All that MUP could do was to ask me to

20 neutralise the source of fire that was in their way. To liberate a town

21 with a population of 50.000, only 12 projectiles were fired from a T-55

22 tank, only 12, whereas Siptar forces, and we probably have this figure

23 here, had 1.500 men. 150 Serbs had been kidnapped between the 17th and

24 the 19th. How can Mr. Perisic write something about it when he wasn't

25 there? With all due respect, after all, he was my chief of General Staff.

Page 42195

1 MR. NICE: In the circumstances I was allowing the witness to run

2 along, but I think I'm going to bring it to a conclusion with this

3 question, if I may.

4 Q. You've spoken now of events between the 17th and 19th. That's the

5 17th and 19th of which month?

6 A. July.

7 Q. And help us, please. Have you set out these documents that relate

8 to this event in the papers that we've got?

9 A. The map, the order, the analysis, all the documents about this

10 event exist, but not here perhaps, I have to check.

11 Q. We now see, you see, from your long answer, which I did not

12 interrupt, that in the apparent liberation of this place your group, in

13 collaboration, cooperation, or subordination to the MUP, fired 12

14 projectiles from a tank. Did you not think that might be material we'd

15 like to see in this Court, investigating as we are the role of the army?

16 A. If you want to know, this was an operation conducted

17 professionally. To liberate a town with 40 or 50.000 population with 12

18 projectiles, I would really like to see a NATO force that could do it the

19 same way. So if we don't have this document here, and if the Trial

20 Chamber should insist, considering that I have received a waiver from the

21 Official Secrets Act, if you want my documentation from Belgrade, I will

22 try to get it. The complete documentation for the 18th --

23 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ... enough on this

24 point. I don't want to be offensive to anybody, but I think the point has

25 been made.

Page 42196

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. It's time for the break. We'll adjourn for

2 20 minutes.

3 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

4 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Nice.


7 Q. Going back to General Perisic's letter and what's said there about

8 Decani and Orahovac, can I remind you of something, or tell you of

9 something that was given in the evidence of Mr. Crosland, who had

10 discussions with General Dimitrijevic at the time, and he said that it was

11 obvious, clear to him, that Perisic and Dimitrijevic were not fully

12 informed as to what was going on on the ground in Kosovo, being excluded

13 from the operational chain of command which went directly from General

14 Pavkovic to this accused, Milosevic, and to Sainovic. Now, what do you

15 say to that? He was your commander, Pavkovic. Did he have a direct line

16 of command that bypassed Perisic and Dimitrijevic?

17 A. Dimitrijevic is absolutely not in the chain of command. General

18 Pavkovic has nothing with Dimitrijevic.

19 As for Perisic, General Pavkovic does not have direct

20 communication with Perisic either, because General Pavkovic has

21 communication with the commander of the 3rd Army. Let me just tell you

22 that at this time and all the way up to the month of October there was the

23 forward command post of the army in Pristina, and it was headed by

24 Lieutenant Colonel General Simic. Mr. Pavkovic could not make a single

25 decision without that decision having been approved by General Simic who

Page 42197

1 is the Chief of Staff the 3rd Army and the deputy commander of the 3rd

2 Army of General Samardzic. So the chain of command was absolutely not

3 harmed in any way.

4 The security service is not in the chain of command. General

5 Dimitrijevic, therefore, is not there. There is the vertical chain up to

6 brigade level that links up all the security organs. And quite simply it

7 was not envisaged that commanders of any unit, corps, et cetera, would

8 have any kind of obligation to report to Dimitrijevic as head of that

9 service.

10 Q. [Previous translation continues]... simple. As far as you were

11 concerned, was it the case that you could see that Pavkovic had a direct

12 line of command that bypassed Perisic? Yes or no.

13 A. No.

14 Q. Insofar as paragraph 3 A of the letter is concerned, of course

15 Perisic should have had access to any intelligence he wanted, shouldn't

16 he? The line of reporting would lead to him ultimately and he could have

17 access to it if he wanted to?

18 A. Certainly.

19 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... complaining about something

20 that's happened immediately in your area of command contemporaneously

21 there and then on 23rd of July, according to your account, four days after

22 things happened. How could General Perisic have got it wrong?

23 A. General Perisic is here, so ask him. I think that I have relevant

24 documentation for this case. If it is important, we can deal with it

25 tomorrow.

Page 42198

1 Q. Do you remember -- ah, you mean you've got some other

2 documentation not here in Court that relates to this topic? Is that what

3 you're saying?

4 A. I said that I already took the largest number of documents that I

5 thought could assist me in cross-examination so that I would not be

6 talking just like that but that I could document every word I say.

7 Q. I understand, then, you've come armed with additional

8 documentation to meet the questions you have forecast I'm going to ask but

9 they haven't been included in the original 629 documents presented to us;

10 is that right?

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, "armed" might be an unfortunate word,

12 Mr. Nice.

13 MR. NICE:

14 Q. Equipped.

15 A. I have my own documentation. The legal advisors selected

16 documentation in accordance with their own way of thinking on particular

17 topics that they asked me to prepare on. Had I been in a position to

18 select documentation, I would have taken a lot more documents.

19 Q. Are we going to be able to know in general or by an index or

20 something or other what it is you've got that is all this additional

21 material or are we just going to wait for it to be produced right at the

22 end of the exercise? Can you tell us what you've got?

23 A. The documentation that I have is documentation that pertains to my

24 unit. Every document that we use in this courtroom will be submitted to

25 the representatives of the Defence if that is deemed necessary for this

Page 42199

1 Court.

2 MR. NICE: Well, Your Honours, that's going to create an

3 interesting problem, but we'll come to it a little later.

4 Q. You remember you were asked a lot of questions about the Joint

5 Command, both by the Court and by me yesterday and last week. Will you

6 now look at paragraph 3(B). "The attempt by the civilian part of the

7 staff to command the corps. The corps commander is responsible for

8 assessing the situation and for planning VJ and MUP operations in

9 cooperation with the civilian part of the staff and the MUP, for

10 forwarding it to Sainovic and Minic for them to distribute assignments to

11 all except the Pristina Corps. In practice, the commander of the Pristina

12 Corps plans what he has been ordered to do, and this is at the request of

13 Sainovic and Minic and the MUP, and so turns into something like a service

14 of theirs --"

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: The page on the ELMO needs to be changed.

16 MR. NICE: Sorry. I failed to observe that.

17 Q. "... so it turns into something like a service of theirs for

18 planning and execution. Since it is his wish and that of all of us that

19 the plan be realised if others will not or cannot, he executes it with the

20 Pristina Corps units, which leads to an illegitimate, unsystematic and

21 inadequate utilisation of VJ units, thereby wrecking the system; they

22 split up the units, expend them, tie them down, and so if it is actually

23 necessary to use the corps according to the regulations on its use in

24 combat, it may not be possible to use it.

25 There are we see Sainovic and Minic, the civilians, and a

Page 42200

1 reference to the Pristina Corps and the way it was circumventing the

2 rules. What was General Perisic referring to?

3 A. Through this point we can only see the vanity of Mr. Perisic.

4 There could not have been any illegal use of the corps at any point in

5 time. General Simic was in Pristina. That is the next officer in the

6 chain of command above the Pristina Corps. General Pavkovic, when he'd go

7 to these meetings, would have to tell General Simic why he was asked to go

8 to a meeting. If he took upon himself an obligation, or if he was

9 supposed to engage any unit of the Pristina Corps, then General Simic had

10 to approve that. General Simic is the Chief of Staff of the 3rd Army of

11 General Samardzic, who is the first person in the chain of command right

12 after General Perisic. So General Simic either allowed the use of some

13 unit or did not allow the use of some unit. General Pavkovic could not

14 use a single unit of the corps without General Simic if it was supposed to

15 act in concert with the MUP.

16 My unit was never used illegally. It was never given to anyone

17 else to command. The first use of my unit was on the 18th of July during

18 the liberation of Orahovac.

19 Q. Let me make a simple suggestion to you and then we're going to

20 move on from this letter. You had, I must suggest to you, the greatest

21 difficulty in explaining to the learned Judges when they asked you

22 questions, or to me, what the chain of command was where the word "Joint

23 Command" was used, and the reason you had that difficulty is because you

24 knew you were responding to an illicit and improper body that had no

25 rights to command you. Is that the truth?

Page 42201












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13 English transcripts.













Page 42202

1 A. It's the other way around. I have no difficulty whatsoever in

2 connection with the Joint Command. Please, let us take a tab out where

3 there is reference to the Joint Command and let me show it to you again.

4 The Joint Command the way you see it did not exist. For me, the Joint

5 Command was the Pristina Corps from which I received my orders. Can we

6 take tab 4 and look at an order of the Joint Command.

7 Q. I'd prefer us not to. You can deal with it in re-examination.

8 I've put my point to you and I want to move on, or to be precise, I want

9 to move back to Lord Ashdown.

10 A. Could I first tell you about my encounter with General Perisic,

11 because you mentioned him, and you said that I had the opportunity of --

12 Q. It relates to the topic --

13 A. It directly relates to this topic. Towards the end of May, 1998,

14 I was visited on the same day by General Perisic together with the

15 commander of the 3rd Army. I met them in Prizren at my sports field,

16 which was a heliodrom, a heliport at the same time. Of course, as soon as

17 they got out of the helicopter I reported to General Perisic, saluted him,

18 shook hands with him, and the first thing he asked me was, "How are things

19 going, Delic?" and I said, "It's very hard. The situation in my zone is

20 very difficult."

21 As I was -- as we were going towards the car because we were

22 supposed to go to my office, I said, "General, please do something. All

23 the roads in my zone, the Djakovica-Klina-Pristina road is broken off and

24 is held by terrorists. The Prizren-Orahovac-Malisevo road is also

25 intercepted by the terrorists. I have information that the Suva

Page 42203

1 Reka-Stimlje road will also be cut off one of these days, and apart from

2 this communication here via Sredska, which is a bad road, I'm not going to

3 have any links with my rear. General Samardzic used a vulgar word that

4 I'm not going to utter now, and General Perisic said, "What do you care?

5 Let them introduce a state of emergency and we're going to resolve it in

6 ten days' time."

7 I'm surprised that such a high-ranking officer of such high rank

8 would have such an attitude of underestimation towards this kind of

9 problem because this kind of problem could not be resolved in ten days.

10 It couldn't even be resolved in ten months. Now, he's the one who knows

11 how he thought it could be resolved in ten days. He didn't give me any

12 help. This road was cut off, and I had no communication whatsoever except

13 for that very bad road via Sredska between Metohija and Kosovo.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, proceed.

15 MR. NICE:

16 Q. Let's now go back to Lord Ashdown, and having seen the

17 observations about avoiding the sight or the eyes of international

18 observers, I make this simple suggestion to you: The problem with Lord

19 Ashdown and his evidence is that as he was observing you from Albania

20 through field glasses, you had no reason to know he was there, and you got

21 caught. Isn't that the truth?

22 A. The first thing you said, the first statement of yours in relation

23 to international observers is ludicrous. We were in our own country. We

24 were attacked by terrorism, like London was the other day. Isn't

25 terrorism a danger for all countries in the world? We had nothing to

Page 42204

1 hide. We wanted to --

2 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... your answers, otherwise we

3 won't make much progress.

4 MR. NICE: By the way, this was dealt with at tab 37, for the

5 Court, if it has a desire to turn to the tab.

6 Q. Now, I want to know what you're saying about Lord Ashdown's

7 evidence and how it is you're saying it. First of all, did you listen to

8 his evidence?

9 A. First of all, you said that we were caught by Lord Ashdown.

10 According to the way you presented things here where he was in Albania,

11 and I drew that schematic for you, he could absolutely see only one

12 Albanian village and one that is scattered around --

13 Q. I want to give you an opportunity to deal with this in a

14 straightforward way, and perhaps you'd be good enough to listen to the

15 questions.

16 Did you listen to Lord Ashdown's evidence?

17 A. No. Except for this transcript.

18 Q. Ah. Did you read the transcript?

19 A. This part that was read out to me by Mr. Milosevic.

20 Q. And is that all that you've relied on in order to express the

21 views on Lord Ashdown that you have so far expressed?

22 A. What was read out to me and what was said in relation to some

23 point on the border with Albania. As for what I was asked to do, that was

24 more than sufficient.

25 Q. How do you mean as to what you were asked to do?

Page 42205

1 A. Well, you asked me. If I said that there was this post on the

2 border with Albania near the village of Gegaj or near the Albanian border

3 post Kamenica, as Lord Ashdown said, from that point you can see all of

4 Kosovo all the way to Pristina. That is absolutely untrue. Whoever knows

5 topography, at least, who has a bare knowledge of topography can know that

6 not more than three or four kilometres can be seen from that point, and

7 that is one single Albanian village, the village of Moric [as interpreted]

8 that can be seen from there.

9 Let me just have a look now.

10 Q. What map is it that you're going to be most assisted by?

11 A. Could the -- could the Albanian -- could the name of the Albanian

12 village be corrected in the transcript. It's the village of Morina, the

13 village of Moric cannot be seen. I was there -- well, not to say a

14 hundred times but tens of times. I know every meadow in that area.

15 Q. Don't, please, fall into a trap or what you think is a trap, but

16 we want to assess how you've given your evidence and what you're saying,

17 what it amounts to. Are you saying that Lord Ashdown is definitely wrong

18 and must be, frankly, making it up, or are you saying that he may be

19 mistaken? And having expressed which of the views you're holding to, then

20 tell us why.

21 A. You told me where Lord Ashdown was in Albania. I have an

22 excellent knowledge of that terrain.

23 Q. No, Mr. Delic, I didn't. Just to get the sequence right, and

24 that's why I want you not to be lulled into any trap, the accused gave a

25 summary of the evidence, we suggested that it was marked on a map, and you

Page 42206

1 were provided, first of all, with a map which you rejected because it was

2 too detailed and not perhaps topographical enough. Then you were provided

3 with a blank version of this map, and it came --

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You marked on it the position where you, for whatever reason --

6 and perhaps you'd like to have it, just have another look at it. You

7 marked on it yourself the position where you say Lord Ashdown was, and you

8 then shaded in the map with areas that you said could and couldn't be

9 seen. And just to complete the history, you explained the position to

10 Ms. Dicklich. I asked the Court if they wanted to deal with the map then

11 and there and they said no, in cross-examination, and I think that

12 Ms. Dicklich took an opportunity, so that the accused couldn't be

13 disadvantaged, to explain to him what you'd said to her.

14 So this map was not marked by us, it was marked by you. Do you

15 remember that?

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 Q. The evidence that Lord Ashdown gave, as you understand it, was

18 what, that he was at the village of Gegaj with a view of Junik. Is that

19 what you understand his evidence to be?

20 A. Junik was mentioned.

21 Q. Please, you're expressing views about the accuracy of a person who

22 has been a witness in this case, somebody who I'm sure would seek no

23 special credit for his position and, therefore, who must be assessed

24 objectively. I want you please to tell me, what did you understand his

25 evidence to be? Very simple question. That he was standing where and

Page 42207

1 that he saw what?

2 A. Now that you mentioned Junik, the Trial Chamber asked me about

3 Junik when the map was shown that the legal advisors obtained, and that

4 map was shown on the ELMO. I was asked where Junik was, and I said that

5 Junik was to the north, and that from the point where Lord Ashdown was it

6 could not be seen. In the transcript in relation to Lord Ashdown, it was

7 said that he was in Albania at the border with the Federal Republic of

8 Yugoslavia, near the village of Gegaj, that in front he had all of Kosovo

9 and Metohija, practically all the way to Pristina, that he saw mortar

10 positions, and he assessed that they were 82-millimetre mortars. He saw

11 tanks and so on --

12 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... the accused suggested to you

13 that he had a very good view of the entire area to the south of Junik.

14 This is, in fact, what Lord Ashdown said, and I'll read it slowly, and I

15 hope you can follow it. He said: "I journeyed from Bajram Curiju through

16 Trepoje, along the lines here - there is a very rough track up to the

17 border crossing here - and then followed this border crossing up to a

18 point on the Albanian-Kosovo border ..." he marked it on the map -

19 "... above a village which I was informed was called Gegaj ... this gave

20 me a very good view of the whole of the south of the -- of the whole area

21 around south of Junik. There are some small villages down here. And

22 indeed, I could see deep into Kosovo, because this is an area of plains

23 here, almost as far as Pristina."

24 With that evidence in mind, we sent to Lord Ashdown a transcript

25 of your evidence and of that map.

Page 42208

1 If Mr. Prendergast would be good enough, if we could distribute

2 first this one.

3 MR. KAY: In this exercise, I wonder if the Prosecution could

4 produce where Lord Ashdown marked on the map so that we can see that.

5 Apparently it was originally made an exhibit. I can't remember the

6 document.

7 MR. NICE: I think it was a -- I think it was a pointer as we've

8 had with this witness. I think, Your Honours, it was a pointer on a map

9 in Court.

10 MR. KAY: That's probably why I can't remember it then.

11 MR. NICE: So that we can have things in sequence, can we

12 distribute this one.

13 Q. Lord Ashdown, who did do several years in the services, not at

14 Bloody Sunday, as the accused suggested, but elsewhere, then drew for us

15 his own cross-section from the map, which shows an observation point a

16 thousand metres up with a view through to Ponosevac. And because Lord

17 Ashdown's faxed map, which we've just been looking at, in black and white

18 wasn't very clear, we have attempted to translate that onto this one,

19 which is more easily seen.

20 If that could be placed on the overhead projector.

21 This, I think, we might just deal with as a potential factor. In

22 the former Yugoslavia, your maps, I think as in the one that's most

23 recently produced, are marked on longitude and latitude lines, whereas the

24 map that Lord Ashdown has marked has those lines but is used for reference

25 by grid lines. And if you look at the grid lines on the map that's been

Page 42209

1 produced, his marked position is at 359, as you can see, 982.

2 And if we now turn to the last document that you've produced -

3 I'm not sure what exhibit number it is - it's this map, as the Court will

4 remember.

5 JUDGE KWON: Tab 630.

6 MR. NICE: Your Honour is very obliging.

7 Q. If we turn to that, we have to do the translation, but you've

8 marked his position there not at the equivalent of 359 962 but at the

9 equivalent at 362 98 -- sorry, you've marked him not at 359 982, which is

10 what's marked on the map with the red dot, but you've marked him at 362

11 982, which is about a thousand feet below where he says he was. Do you

12 follow?


14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am following you, yes.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, it then becomes important to ascertain,

16 as Mr. Kay said, where Mr. Ashdown in evidence said he was.

17 MR. NICE: He pointed to a map with a pointer. That we don't

18 have, I'm afraid.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, but what did the transcript say?

20 MR. NICE: The transcript says, because of course he wasn't

21 challenged on these issues in this way at all, the transcript says that he

22 went up a border to a point above a village which he was informed was

23 Gegaj, which gave him a good view of the whole area of the south of Junik.

24 And we can see on the map Gegaj, which is in altitude below the point

25 marked, and the rest follows. Had he, of course, been challenged on this

Page 42210

1 detail at the time, this topic could have been explored with him.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Okay. Well, let's hear the precise question

3 you're putting to the witness, and the answer.

4 MR. NICE: Thank you.

5 MR. KAY: Just one matter, sorry to interrupt.


7 MR. KAY: There are, of course, the video archives which will

8 reveal, raising a current topic there, and maybe I haven't been making

9 myself familiar with the procedures. Ms. Higgins has been dealing with

10 that, but maybe that could be sourced for that particular day and point so

11 that we can look at the video record.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, that would be useful.

13 MR. NICE:

14 Q. In his evidence, just to conclude it and then -- because I've got

15 one more document to show you. In his evidence on this topic, he also

16 said that he saw a mortar position laid out in a classic Warsaw Pact

17 style, he saw platoons moving around in armoured personnel carriers, APCs

18 bombarding subject -- subjecting to tank fire and mortar fire the houses

19 and the villages in the area he was observing. That's his evidence.

20 Now, one other feature that may be relevant because he's looked at

21 the maps in light of the evidence you've given, if we look at this map,

22 the map in your hand, we see Brovina, a village to the north, and to the

23 east of the yellow road running north/south at Brovina we see another road

24 white in colour, and I forecast that were Lord Ashdown to come back and

25 give evidence, as he's entirely willing to do, he would calculate from his

Page 42211

1 recollection and notes and diaries and so on that it was tanks on that

2 eastern of the two roads that were shelling houses on the western of the

3 two roads, on the yellow road.

4 As to Brovina, would you like to look at this last document,

5 please, so that the position can be made clear.

6 Now, this map -- not this map. I beg your pardon. This

7 cross-section that's been drawn, not by Lord Ashdown but by somebody in

8 the Office of the Prosecutor, shows the cross-sectional line from the same

9 observation point to Brovina and thus suggests that from the map Brovina

10 would be visible from the observation point.

11 In order, do you accept that the --

12 A. But -- yes, I'm waiting for your question.

13 Q. Do you accept that if the observation point --

14 A. No, absolutely not. This map was drawn by an amateur who has

15 nothing to do with military topography. Have a look at it. Don't use

16 things like this, please. If you look at it, it says Planning [as

17 interpreted] here -- Planik, which means that Planik is at a distance of 5

18 kilometres from this point. Now look at the map. You see that Planik is

19 537 metres above sea level, and you show it to be 500 metres, so from

20 Planik you cannot see Ponosevac at all. Ponosevac is located right under

21 Planik --

22 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

23 A. No, the right drawing is on the overhead projector. However, this

24 is incorrect. It's absolutely not correct. The person who drew this has

25 no idea about topography at all. Just take a look at this point, for

Page 42212

1 instance. I don't wish to deal here with amateur work.

2 Q. Honestly, Mr. Delic, if you think it's going to be helpful to make

3 remarks like that, carry on doing it, but I'll just tell you that this

4 plan was drawn by Lord Ashdown in response to your evidence with the maps

5 that were available to him, no doubt in the short period of time available

6 to him, but you carry on saying what you like and help us with why it's

7 actually inaccurate.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, I'm a little confused.

9 MR. NICE: This one was drawn by Lord Ashdown.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: I thought earlier you said it was --

11 MR. NICE: This one was by someone in the Office of the

12 Prosecutor.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: So the one that is on the ELMO now was drawn by

14 Lord Ashdown.

15 MR. NICE: Yes.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't know whether that makes any difference to

17 the witness's conclusions.

18 MR. NICE: No, it doesn't make any difference to the conclusions,

19 but it's a matter for him --

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: No. I'm just saying -- inviting the witness

21 to --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's very important. I say that it

23 is extremely important. Although I can go back to all the other points,

24 but just take a look at this one point that I'm indicating on the overhead

25 projector now. That is the point which shows at a distance of four or,

Page 42213

1 rather, five kilometres, the Planik feature, and then it says here that it

2 is at an altitude of 500 metres. Planik is not 500 metres. Planik is 537

3 metres.

4 Then here we have -- it says Ponosevac down here. Now take a look

5 at the map, the altitude of Ponosevac. Ponosevac's altitude is a little

6 over 400 metres, which means that the Planik feature is right underneath

7 or, rather, Ponosevac is right underneath Planik feature the altitude is a

8 hundred metres less. So Ponosevac cannot be seen from this feature here.


10 Q. That's the issue between you and Lord Ashdown, and he has

11 identified, to the extent possible, the position he was at above Gegaj.

12 You weren't aware, were you, when you gave your original evidence that he

13 was above that village?

14 A. But you place him at the village of Ljukaj now, not Gegaj. Now,

15 you can, of course, adjust this as suits you now, but let me tell you

16 this: From any point, you cannot see Ponosevac because of the Planik

17 feature, from any of the other points. You told me the village of Gegaj.

18 You didn't give me the coordinates of the village. You've now mentioned

19 those coordinates and you've moved that point to the proximity of village

20 -- the village of Ljukaj, because the village of Gegaj, you say, was

21 drawn by Lord Ashdown himself on the map, which is more than one kilometre

22 above the village of Gegaj closer to the village of Ljukaj.

23 But independently of that, let's leave that alone, even if we take

24 that what Lord Ashdown has drawn here stands, you still cannot see

25 Ponosevac from the Planik feature, and this is something that is taught to

Page 42214

1 students at the military academy in their third lesson, and people will

2 laugh at us for the observations of this kind.

3 Q. You see --

4 A. I would like this to be corrected. If somebody has drawn diagrams

5 like this, then I ask that they be corrected, because they absolutely do

6 not correspond to the actual situation, and it is not serious to discuss a

7 diagram and drawing like this which was drawn by amateurs, and most

8 probably with some goal in mind at that. And if you just glance at this

9 map and this drawing here, things will be quite clear to you that all this

10 is incorrect.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: We have in evidence, General, the comments that

12 you have made on the drawing.

13 JUDGE KWON: General, do you have any observation on this drawing,

14 which shall be put on the ELMO.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This drawing once again shows Molic

16 stream or brook. That is something that can be seen. However, Brovina

17 cannot be seen. Brovina is at an altitude of 453 metres, and above it

18 there is another feature called Hordup, which is at an altitude of 600

19 metres. So the difference between the altitudes is 150 metres. So as I

20 say, you cannot see both those features.

21 JUDGE KWON: And where can we find the altitude of Ponosevac? You

22 said it's 400 something.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The altitude of Ponosevac,

24 gentlemen, is easily calculated if you look at the isohypsa. We have the

25 isohypsa, with which we can calculate the altitude, but this is a

Page 42215












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13 English transcripts.













Page 42216

1 photocopy of the map, and all I can tell you now is a rough estimate of

2 that altitude.

3 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But from some other map, using some

5 other map.


7 Q. You see --

8 A. The altitude of Ponosevac, if you look at it, is a little below or

9 a little under 440. About 440 metres above sea level, roughly. I can't

10 be precise based on this map because, as I say, the map is a photocopy.

11 So if you have a feature that is at an altitude of about 440 metres and

12 just below it at half a metre you have 537 metres, you cannot see that

13 other feature.

14 Q. Just a couple of other things on this before I move on to

15 something else. You will accept, won't you, that the observation point

16 indicated on this map that your people or military people constructed in

17 wherever it was, Belgrade, is a different observation point from that

18 indicated in the map now produced by Lord Ashdown?

19 A. Yes, because you didn't specifically determine the coordinates.

20 It's only today that you've been speaking about the coordinates of the

21 points, but you did say in the vicinity of the Gegaj village. What you

22 showed here was not near Gegaj village but near Ljukaj village.

23 Q. So far as this map is concerned - I'll just hold it up, this

24 little one here - on any reckoning, whether you can see over the top of

25 the intervening feature or not, you could see from the observation point

Page 42217

1 some or all of Brovina, looking along the southern flanks of the feature

2 that you say would obstruct it. Would you accept that?

3 A. Have you ever been to the village of Brovina? You haven't been to

4 the village of Brovina, I take it. My unit for a time was located in the

5 village of Brovina and I know exactly what you can see there, and I tell

6 you that you cannot see the village of Brovina.

7 Q. The place from which Lord Ashdown made observations was the

8 recognised ECMM observation point at the time and may be one that it's

9 possible to identify again with complete precision, he's obviously working

10 from memory at the moment, and if necessary, we can do that. But if we

11 look at the map, please --

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Was that in evidence?

13 MR. NICE: No, no. I'm making that as an assertion. I'm not sure

14 that that was in evidence, no.

15 Q. If we look at the map, and if we look at those two roads running

16 north/south Brovina to Ponosevac and then the road to the east, running

17 through Stubla and Berijaj -- or Berjah, were those roads roads in your

18 area of responsibility?

19 A. These roads were not in my area of responsibility. However, at

20 that time one of my units was located in the region around the village of

21 Brovina, a smaller unit.

22 Q. If, as Lord Ashdown tells us, tanks were firing at houses in that

23 area, if they weren't your -- your unit's tanks, whose tanks could they

24 be?

25 A. First of all, the tanks did not fire at the houses, and in one of

Page 42218

1 the tabs there is a report by the military police about the damages on the

2 buildings from which the terrorists acted and that only two tank

3 projectiles were fired, which damaged one particular building. So your

4 observation when you said that tanks were firing at houses, that does not

5 hold water. My unit was there. It was about -- it was in the village of

6 Lajna [phoen] for about 20 days, whereas my area of responsibility was

7 more southerly towards the town of Djakovica, further down, and it was

8 about five kilometres away from Ponosevac.

9 Q. Just a minute. You say that one of the tabs has a report by the

10 military police of damage to the buildings. Does that mean you're aware

11 that these buildings on the north/south road running from Ponosevac to

12 Junik were damaged by tank fire?

13 A. Don't, please, turn my words upside down. I was there. It wasn't

14 Junik. It was the village of Popovac. Popovac is to the south of

15 Ponosevac. So the column was attacked from the houses. The supply column

16 on the road was attacked from the houses. That is to say they were firing

17 at two or three houses, and then the police went to investigate and

18 compiled a report, and the report was shown here during the presentation

19 of Mr. Milosevic. And we also discussed it.

20 Q. Would Popovac have been visible, do you say, from the observation

21 point referred to by Lord Ashdown?

22 A. As far as Popovac is concerned, possibly you could see just

23 individual houses, one or two houses, possibly.

24 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... if we can find the document

25 you're saying covers this. Can you go through the tabs and find out which

Page 42219

1 one it was? It will be in volume 1 at about 40, I think. They're not

2 entirely chronological.

3 A. I'm just looking for it.

4 Q. Mr. Coo says it may be 36. But I'm not sure that you were asked

5 any questions specifically about tab 36. In any event, I haven't got a

6 note of it at the moment against that tab.

7 A. No, it's not 36. I've found it. It's tab 49. And it precisely

8 refers to the village of Brovina.

9 MR. NICE: Well, then, Your Honours, we'd better look at that.

10 Your Honour, just give me one minute.

11 Q. All right. Now -- well, now, this one here you think relates,

12 does it? We haven't looked at this document, I think, in detail or even

13 at all, so you'd better tell us what's significant.

14 A. Yes, we did look at it. We did consider this document. We went

15 through it. And very briefly I made my comments, because we were asked to

16 go through the tabs as quickly as possible. But anyway, this document

17 says that on the 28th of May, a column of motor vehicles was attacked

18 which was taking supplies, food supplies to the Kosare border post or

19 watchtower.

20 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Lord Ashdown's visit was on

21 the 20th or 25th of June or thereabouts, so that would seem to be an

22 entirely different incident.

23 Now, if tanks were firing on houses at that part of June, was it

24 your unit or was there any other unit that could have been responsible?

25 A. My unit was not there in June, but there was no firing here in

Page 42220

1 June either. In Junik in June, you had the population there. You had the

2 army there. The terrorists were expulsed from part of the territory along

3 the border belt, the state border.

4 Q. And which army was there? If it wasn't your unit, which unit was

5 in that area at that time?

6 A. It was a unit from the 125th Motorised Brigade.

7 Q. And if Lord Ashdown was able to see the area south of Junik from

8 the vantage point he had, are you able to help us one way or another with

9 whether the 125th Motorised Brigade did what he said in evidence it did?

10 A. At that time, that is -- well, the commander of the 125th Brigade

11 can be called to come here. At that time there were --

12 Q. Could you help us one way or another with whether what Lord

13 Ashdown said about tanks is true or not?

14 A. I already told you. Lord Ashdown could see -- all he could see

15 was if the tanks as part of the supply column were moving towards the

16 village of Morina, which is right up along the border, not towards the

17 village of Brovina, Junik or Moric at all, because you can't see them.

18 All he could have seen was something around the village of Morina, and

19 along that axis, along that road, I assume once or twice a week you would

20 have the supply columns moving that way, a supply column bringing in water

21 to the watchtower at the border post or new shifts. So it would be

22 followed by, accompanied by a tank, perhaps, and a combat vehicle

23 belonging to the military police, a combat armoured vehicle, BOV. That's

24 what he could have seen, but nothing apart from that.

25 Q. You haven't brought with you, have you, the records of the 125th

Page 42221

1 Motorised Brigade for the period of the 20th to the 25th of June of 1998,

2 or any records that cover what they were doing?

3 A. I don't see any reason why I should take with me records of the

4 125th Brigade. It is a brigade that has its commander and it's in

5 Belgrade. I have no reason, no right.

6 Q. You have come here, it's clear from the questions that were asked

7 by the accused, you've come here to assert effectively that what Lord

8 Ashdown has said is untrue. We now know that on the 20th and 25th June,

9 if anybody, it was the 125th Brigade and it wasn't you. You don't have

10 the records and you can't help us, can you?

11 A. I still claim that regardless of which army unit was there, Lord

12 Ashdown could not see what he claims to have seen from the point he was

13 at. That is absolutely impossible except if your Lord Ashdown can see

14 through a hill. Then I do apologise him; perhaps he has that kind of

15 capability.

16 Q. In September he returned. We'll just play you the video of what

17 he could see and what he was doing, please. This was Exhibit 76. I'm

18 grateful.

19 [Videotape played]

20 Lord Ashdown: "Bloody angry. I mean angry enough that the truth

21 is that this is exactly -- this is Bosnia all over again. It's not ethnic

22 cleansing. If it is anything, even worse than ethnic cleansing. It is a

23 deliberate two fingers to the rest of the world and this is

24 unquestioningly an act of criminality for which I have absolutely no doubt

25 individuals in command and the politicians who have allowed it on the Serb

Page 42222

1 side could be indicted as war criminals."


3 Q. Now, this was in September, and he described the area that he was

4 looking at between Suva Reka and Budakova, villages which were being set

5 on fire. What do you say about that? He said some 16 villages

6 altogether.

7 A. You must tell me where Lord Ashdown was and from what point --

8 what vantage point he was looking at, looking from --

9 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

10 A. -- the date was.

11 Q. Near the village of Pecani and in September of 1998. Looking

12 east. Thank you. And the villages he was looking at were the villages of

13 Budakova through to Vranic, and he also spoke of Gornja Kruscica and

14 Kruscica. All these villages were aflame, he said, subject to

15 bombardment, and they had been put to flame. What do you say about that?

16 Whose area of responsibility first, yours?

17 A. At that time, I was with my unit in part of that area, part of

18 that zone. But what Mr. Ashdown says, I'm not going to say that the man

19 is lying, but even what you saw here, what was it that we actually saw?

20 What did you show us?

21 I was there. There was fighting with the terrorist forces whose

22 command was in Budakova. That means, well, at this point in time I can't

23 tell you but I'll take a look this afternoon what Lord Ashdown can see

24 from Pecani and what these manufactured -- what this manufactured footage

25 is.

Page 42223

1 Q. I'm sorry. Manufactured footage. Don't hesitate to make

2 allegations like that if you think it's going to help. Who do you suggest

3 manufactured the footage?

4 A. For all the footage and pictures I showed here I said who took

5 them, when they were taken, who the editor was, who the cameraman was.

6 Here you just showed me Lord Ashdown looking through a pair of binoculars

7 and then you show me some houses that are aflame.

8 Q. His evidence was of what he saw through the binoculars, supported

9 by the evidence of him in the viewing position, supported by evidence of

10 burning houses in the area he'd about looking at. Now, are you saying

11 that was manipulated; and, if so, by whom?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that the question is

15 improper because it has to do with the video that Mr. Nice showed.

16 Mr. Nice showed a single house that was in flames, and then there was a

17 close-up of a window on that house. He cannot take footage of one house

18 that is burning as evidence that an entire village is burning and in this

19 way put questions to the witness.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think he's really asking the witness to

21 substantiate his claim that the footage was manipulated.

22 MR. NICE:

23 Q. Incidentally, Mr. Delic, although it doesn't show up very well on

24 the review here, what the film does show, or did show when we looked at it

25 a couple years ago, is a whole area with smoke coming up as from flames

Page 42224

1 from various villages. But there it is.

2 I think I'm going to move on, unless there is anything else you

3 want to say about Lord Ashdown.

4 A. I certainly have something to add. But I'm asking you to tell me

5 at what position Mr. Ashdown was so that I could say tomorrow whether what

6 is being said is correct. I need the position so that I could have a look

7 this afternoon. Since I know where the village of Pecani is, that I was

8 in that village, and from that place there are also a lot of problems

9 involved in order to see the 16 villages that Mr. Ashdown is talking

10 about. And I know the villages that I was in. This assertion is

11 absolutely wrong. I was near the village of Musitiste [phoen], then from

12 the village of Recani, the village of Vranic, the village of Maciteve, the

13 village of Popovjani [phoen], and then let --

14 Q. Pause a minute. I'm not sure that at present the record allows

15 more detail of his observation point for the second part of his evidence,

16 but if you want it, I'll try and find it. It may not be today. It may be

17 tomorrow.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: On that point with -- again with Judge Kwon's

19 help, the transcript shows Lord Ashdown as saying, "So I was positioned

20 approximately here, near the village of Pecani," and then I think he must

21 have --

22 MR. NICE: Marked a map.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- pointed.

24 MR. NICE: Yes. But it may be I can get further detail, at least

25 of what Lord Ashdown's position is.

Page 42225

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm probably technologically disadvantaged, but I

2 don't know whether video, the video would help, would assist.

3 MR. NICE: I'm not sure that it would. It depends on how precise

4 he was and how long the pointer lingered on the map.


6 MR. NICE: Your Honours, the question will arise as to the status

7 of the documents that I've used to explain the position. The witness has,

8 of course, not adopted any of them. I'm in the Court's hands. Lord

9 Ashdown, as I say, is quite prepared to come back and give evidence if

10 it's thought to be important.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you seeking to have --

12 MR. NICE: Before I move on to the next thing, which is another

13 document, and knowing that the Chamber prefers things to be dealt with

14 sequentially --


16 MR. NICE: -- if the Court wanted them exhibited or marked for

17 identification.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 MR. NICE: Oh, and, Your Honours, yes --

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will exhibit them, Mr. Nice, for the reason

21 that the witness's answers and remarks make them intelligible, make the

22 evidence intelligible.

23 MR. NICE: Your Honours, the one map that I think I didn't

24 distribute, which --

25 JUDGE KWON: Microphone.

Page 42226

1 MR. NICE: The one map I didn't distribute, which is the map

2 handed out in blank to the witness and marked by him, the first in the

3 sequence. If I can hand that in as well.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Nice, the one that shows the heights which the

5 General said were inaccurately -- sorry. Yes, inaccurately recorded, you

6 say was actually drawn by Ashdown.

7 MR. NICE: That's my understanding, yes.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: And you said that one had been drawn by someone in

9 your office.

10 MR. NICE: That's that one, yes.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Is it the one that shows Brovina?

12 MR. NICE: That's correct.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

14 THE REGISTRAR: 872, given to all these maps, consists of five

15 tabs.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: But should we have some indication that

17 distinguishes the one drawn by Lord Ashdown to the one drawn by the

18 Prosecutor's Office?

19 MR. NICE: Yes, I think that would be helpful. Would it be

20 helpful if we marked the tabs in some way at the break, or would you like

21 us to deal with it now?

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's deal with it at the break and move on. I

23 have one concern, though, that the witness asked you to inform him in more

24 specific terms of Lord Ashdown's position so that he could review the

25 matter in the evening and come back to it tomorrow, but it doesn't appear

Page 42227

1 that we are in a position to be any more precise than the reading which I

2 gave from the transcript.

3 MR. NICE: Your Honour, no, not from the record. If I can make

4 further contact with Lord Ashdown, I will, and I'll give the witness

5 notification of what he says.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well, yes.

7 MR. NICE: Can I distribute now, please, a document that is a

8 visual aid which I hope may be helpful to the Chamber and to the witness.

9 I'll explain it and then we can use it in part. It's an aide-memoire or a

10 guide. It's nothing more nor less than that.

11 Q. Mr. Delic, this document first of all seeks to show certain things

12 relating to your area of responsibility, and if we look at the bottom

13 left-hand corner of the map, we see an inserted map. Does that inserted

14 map roughly show your area of responsibility?

15 A. The question is how precisely this was done, but that is where my

16 zone of responsibility is. However, this was not done precisely.

17 Q. It's only approximate. We've done our best. Now, if you look at

18 the large map, you'll see a number of places marked, nearly all of them

19 inside the area of responsibility, one or two, like Crnoljevo and of

20 course Racak, which are outside.

21 When we look at areas within your area of responsibility, the

22 boxes show places and sources of information. I'll just explain it to

23 you.

24 Take one which has a lot of entries in it, so take Suva Reka. If

25 you look at Suva Reka, which is towards the right at the top, we see that

Page 42228

1 there's something about the army happening on the 27th of August of 1998

2 and the material for that is a witness called Crosland through his Exhibit

3 253. Likewise, something at Suva Reka happened involving the army on the

4 15th of December of 1998. Maisonneuve deals with it through his exhibit

5 175, as does the same witness through Exhibit 178 on the 16th of January.

6 On the 28th of March there is something about the army at Suva

7 Reka from the book "As Seen, As Told," of which you've spoken, page 377 in

8 the English.

9 And then for events between March and April 1999, apart from an

10 entry from "Under Orders" pages 382 and 388, there's evidence from

11 witnesses in this case, Baccard, Zdrilic, K32.

12 So that's the general format, so that people can follow it. I'm

13 not going to go through each and every entry or anything like it, but it

14 provides a reckoner, or ready reckoner for what may be available.

15 And in the general chronology of events, we've reached the summer

16 of 1998, and although this is just outside your area of responsibility, in

17 the top right-hand corner we see Dulje, and in July of 1998, according to

18 John Crosland, he saw there evidence of coordination of the VJ and the

19 MUP. He saw an assault force of the special anti-terrorist unit, the PJP,

20 with the army at Kijevo. He saw a heavy MUP and army assault on Dulje,

21 Blace, and Junik.

22 As to Dulje, are you able to help us one way or another with

23 whether at that time in July of 1998, 28th, 29th, there was an army police

24 attack on Dulje?

25 A. You mentioned a few villages here or, rather, you mentioned some

Page 42229












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 42230

1 places that are about 50 kilometres away from one another.

2 Q. At the moment I'm just really focusing on Dulje. Was there a

3 military police attack on Dulje on the 28th, 29th of July, 1998?

4 A. Do you know what Dulje is? Do you know what Dulje means? How do

5 you see it?

6 Q. I'm sorry. It's not for you to ask questions.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Don't ask -- don't ask counsel questions,

8 General. It's the other way around. You answer the questions. That's

9 the format here.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dulje is a feature, a land feature.

11 It is a pass. There is not a single house at the pass of Dulje. Later

12 on, in accordance with the agreement reached with the mission, there was a

13 unit from the 243rd Brigade there. There's nothing there except for a

14 forest and this pass on the road between Suva Reka and Stimlje.

15 MR. NICE:

16 Q. Are you able to help whether there was a heavy military police

17 presence at Dulje on those days?

18 A. I was not there, so I cannot tell you whether there were a lot of

19 soldiers or policemen there. At that time, Luznica and Klecka were the

20 directions that operations were aimed at. Klecka is well known due to the

21 fact that a first big mass grave of Serbs was found there. So those are

22 my recollections.

23 Q. A small detail but we'll just pick it up for completeness. If you

24 look at the centre of the top, we see the Orahovac block and we see a

25 Defence witness, Yevgeny Primakov, and through an exhibit in his evidence

Page 42231

1 the evidence came in of an incident at the Morina border post marked as

2 Orahovac but I'm not sure that is a correct reference. It should be over

3 at Morina, I expect. He says that at the Morina -- or his exhibit says

4 that at the Morina border post there was firing by the army onto Albanian

5 territory after a Yugoslav army truck had been hit by a land-mine. Do you

6 remember anything about that? It's a matter of accuracy.

7 A. A truck of the military near Morina came across a mine that was

8 laid by the Albanian terrorists. Staff Sergeant Bubalo, the commanding

9 officer, was killed and five soldiers were seriously wounded. Fire was

10 opened from the territory of Albania. We probably have this in our tabs

11 here.

12 Q. And was the village the Albanian village of Padesh then shelled?

13 A. I would have to have a look on the map. The territory of Albania

14 was not shelled, but you are producing your own documents. I should now

15 find a report from the on-site investigation for that incident. I am

16 talking about -- you are talking about that incident, and I know that I

17 have a report about it in my tabs.

18 Q. Well, if you can tell us where it is, or give us a hint where it

19 is. It should be around the place where we are at the moment, and I

20 shan't pretend to have memorised the contents of each and every one of

21 these tabs. We're at about 52. If you can find it, do so.

22 Did you find it?

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's time for the break. We'll adjourn for 20

24 minutes.

25 --- Recess taken at 12.15 p.m.

Page 42232

1 --- On resuming at 12.39 p.m.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Nice.


4 Q. Did you find the tab you wanted to draw to our attention?

5 A. Yes. But before that, I've also found the previous matter about

6 Dulje. Tab 125.

7 JUDGE KWON: Binder 2.

8 MR. NICE: Yes, binder 2, tab 125. No translation.


10 MR. NICE: I don't think I have a translation.

11 JUDGE KWON: I have it.

12 MR. NICE: It may be a late arrival.

13 JUDGE KWON: Yes. It's on the ELMO.

14 MR. NICE:

15 Q. On the evidence, of course, the Dulje incident referred to by

16 Crosland was on the 28th and 29th of July, so this would not appear to be

17 related to the same event. Would you accept that?

18 A. The shooting for the liberating the communication between Suva

19 Reka and Malisevo went on for three days. They started on the 25th and

20 ended on the 28th or 29th. So it was an ongoing operation along the

21 communication lines and Luznica-Klecka, that road. So it's the same

22 event, and this is an Official Note for the 25th.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What month are you talking about?

25 MR. NICE:

Page 42233

1 Q. July.

2 A. This is the month of August. But I found the other tabs --

3 Q. Very well.

4 A. -- which have to do with Morina.

5 Q. Tell us about those, please.

6 A. They are tabs 148 and 149.

7 Q. Still in volume 2. These relate to September. I think the

8 matters I was raising with you were possibly rather earlier than that, but

9 tell us what you derive from these documents.

10 A. The incidents along the border were daily incidents, but you

11 mentioned a truck, and in both these events that took place on the same

12 day, the first event was that a truck belonging to the army, which was

13 moving along or, rather, was at the border and going to pick up supplies

14 came across a mine which was placed by Siptar terrorists and that an

15 officer of that vehicle was killed, Warrant Officer Bundalo, and that

16 another warrant officer, Mihajlovic, was seriously wounded and two others

17 lightly wounded.

18 The other event took place on that same day, once again at the

19 border in the area of the Kosare border post, where five soldiers were

20 killed. And it seems that they stormed in at the very stone denoting the,

21 border because the line goes parallel with the Yugoslav-Albania border.

22 So this patrol path which allowed vehicles to move about goes

23 right up along the border, and the Albanian terrorists on Albanian

24 territory set up an ambush. This vehicle came across that ambush. They

25 opened fire at it from hand-held launchers of the Armbrust type, and there

Page 42234

1 were about 30 terrorists. They opened fire for about five minutes and

2 then withdrew to Albanian territory. Five soldiers were killed in that

3 clash.

4 Q. Your Honours, I'm going to move on now to -- moving through the

5 time period. Whether or not the Court finds the chart helpful, I'll

6 simply refer to things on the chart from time to time. We're now looking

7 at Djakovica, 1st to the 3rd of August.

8 You've made some reference already to K32. He's a protected

9 witness. If there's anything that you're going to say that's going in any

10 way to identify him, please notify us -- or enable him to be identified,

11 please notify us before you say it and then we'll ask for private session.

12 Do you understand?

13 A. I certainly do not wish to identify the witness, and I'll take

14 great care not to do so.

15 Q. Well, now, he has told us that on the 1st -- somewhere between the

16 1st and the 3rd of August, on the road between Djakovica town on the way

17 towards Klina, there was a large Yugoslav army column going to help or

18 reinforce the MUP, and at the first village they came to they stopped and

19 you ordered the driver to turn the tank towards a house and to fire at it

20 and that that order was heard by K32 personally.

21 You deny it, but tell us, please, where were you between the 1st

22 and the 3rd of August; and secondly, please, point us to any tabs that are

23 going to provide contemporaneous accounts of what you were doing over that

24 time.

25 A. The legal representatives, advisors, did not consider those

Page 42235

1 documents to be necessary, so I'll see whether we can come by them. But

2 there are regular documents that exist for every other --

3 Q. One of the documents that we know you've got is a journal or a war

4 diary. I haven't asked to see it yet but I don't want to be suddenly

5 presented with it at a later stage. Does that document cover this general

6 period?

7 A. The war diary is called a war diary because it just covers the war

8 period.

9 Q. I assumed as much. Do you have any other journal, diary, log, or

10 record with you, in your briefcase or in your hotel, that covers this

11 period?

12 A. I'll check it -- check that. As far as the operational log is

13 concerned, it is in the military archives.

14 Now, as for this one -- this period here, there is an order,

15 there's a map, and there's an analysis.

16 Q. Let's just see how proximate that is, either in geography or time,

17 to the incident described by K32. Which map and which order do you want

18 us to look at?

19 A. I'll do my best to see whether I can come up with those for

20 tomorrow too.

21 Now, as for what you said linked to Witness K32 --

22 Q. From the documents you've got now - we've got to do things in an

23 orderly way - is there any document we've got so far that's going to help

24 us with where you were and what you were doing on this particular period

25 of time?

Page 42236

1 A. I will check that. I can't give you an answer just now. But as

2 for Witness K32, I don't need any documents.

3 Q. You knew coming here that, amongst other things, you would be

4 asked questions about the conduct of the army in 1998. That's why you

5 gave such extensive evidence and came with such extensive documents about

6 1998. Am I correct?

7 A. I am ready to testify for every year that I spent in the army. So

8 it's not essential whether it's 1998 or 1999, and for the duties that I

9 occupied and the units I was in command of.

10 Q. You also knew, because you were very familiar with it when the

11 accused was asking you questions, about the evidence given against you by

12 K32, didn't you?

13 A. Yes. K32, he did testify against me.

14 Q. Why didn't you bring the contemporaneous documents with you that

15 would have helped us, from contemporaneous documents, work out where you

16 were?

17 A. Well, it's absolutely no problem for you to know where I was, but

18 I don't wish to speak about your witness. Let me just say that your

19 witness from the Logistics Battalion, that's where he was, and that he was

20 never beside me in the operation. And I'll show you on the map where I

21 was and where your witness was.

22 Q. Yes. Show us on the map, then. Which map are you going to use?

23 A. Well, any of these two. Either one.

24 Q. Well, you show us where you were and tell us how -- and then tell

25 us how you're able to remember that.

Page 42237

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: You're indicating where you were?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That means the witness was on

3 assignment together with the quartermaster group for supplies, and he was

4 in the region of the chicken farm, whereas I was three kilometres further

5 away in the -- first of all in -- around the village of Mece, that region,

6 and then around Rakovina, the village of Rakovina. This quartermaster or

7 logistics group for supplies, in charge of supplies, would come when I

8 asked them to, to bring in water or ammunition, only upon request. Later

9 on to the village of Rakovi.

10 Q. Thank you. Do I take it then from what you're telling us that you

11 accept that the account given by K32 in general as being part of an army

12 column travelling along a road between Djakovica and Klina is correct but

13 that the detail of what he says he observed is incorrect?

14 A. From Prizren he went in a single column. His column, which was

15 composed of 45 vehicles, stayed in the village of Bec, at the chicken farm

16 there.

17 Q. What he's described in general is correct. He's not made the

18 whole incident up. His account of the movement of the troops along this

19 road in early -- August 1998 is accurate; yes?

20 A. In general terms, but just that, that he was part of the unit.

21 That is accurate.

22 Q. Remembering the problem with identification, I want you to be as

23 clear and expansive as you need to tell us what reason K32 can have had

24 for making this all up against you.

25 A. K32 -- well, I don't know if you can remember this, but K32 was an

Page 42238

1 army -- a Muslim, a member of the army. He was partly Albanian.

2 Q. You've already reached probably the hinterland of material that

3 might have to be better dealt with in private session.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's go into private session to get this reason.

5 MR. NICE: Yes.

6 [Private session]

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 42239











11 Pages 42239-42246 redacted. Private session.















Page 42247

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 [Open session]

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And the other officer that I

11 mentioned earlier on.

12 MR. NICE:

13 Q. Let's go, please, to tab 104.

14 This is from Pavkovic to the Chief of Staff and, I think, to

15 various brigades, including yours. Now, this is what he says: "The

16 latest operations carried out by units of the corps in coordinated action

17 with units of the Serbian MUP in curbing terrorism in Kosovo and Metohija

18 were carried out very professionally and responsibly with sound assessment

19 and prudent use of forces. An analysis of the achievement of the tasks

20 showed that some units overused combat equipment, the consequence of which

21 was greater damage to buildings in areas of combat operations --"

22 A. I'm not receiving any interpretation.

23 Q. I'll go back and try again with that last sentence. Can you hear

24 me? "An analysis of the achievement of the task --"

25 A. Yes, yes.

Page 42248

1 Q. "-- showed that some units overused combat equipment, the

2 consequence of which was greater damage to buildings in areas of combat

3 operations. Specifically, a large number of houses were destroyed and

4 torched."

5 Well, this is only a few days after what K32 told us about your

6 pointing a tank at a house and ordering that the tank should fire, there

7 being no other reason to do so that he could see. And there's reference

8 here to torching of houses.

9 By August of 1998, was the army engaged in rather widespread

10 destruction of houses and torching of them?

11 A. That's not true, and you didn't read this properly, this section

12 of the text, because the way you read this text one reaches the wrong kind

13 of conclusions. It refers to a different period. The corps commander is

14 sending this to the commanders of brigades and chiefs of staff. Obviously

15 there are some problems, but as you say, this is not widespread torching

16 of houses. What you're saying, that I directly ordered a particular house

17 to be targeted, I ordered direct firing against a house from which there

18 was fire coming at the police. To this day I know where this house was,

19 and there were terrorists in that house. That house is in Kramovik and

20 it's from that house that --

21 Q. Are you acknowledging that what K32 said about ordering a tank to

22 fire at a house does have some connection with events of which you have a

23 memory?

24 A. K32 could have heard about something but he was not there.

25 Q. Well, this is, I think, the first time you've told about this. I

Page 42249

1 may be wrong but I think it is, so we'd better just focus on it. So you

2 did order the targeting of a house, and was it on the days that K32 has

3 told us about, the very beginning of August?

4 A. To target a house that had been turned into a fortification from

5 which the terrorists held under their control the bridge on the Drim

6 River. They did not allow anyone to cross that bridge on that day, police

7 vehicles or army vehicles. So that's what I ordered, to fire at that

8 house and to neutralise that firing point. That is my right. It was not

9 a house. For me, it was a bunker.

10 Q. He said it was in the village of Mece or probably -- yeah, I think

11 Mece or Medevci, was that about the right location?

12 A. No. That's a few kilometres further on.

13 Q. But we're getting --

14 A. And he absolutely was not there.

15 Q. Forget whether he was there. That's another issue, for the time

16 being, but we're getting close. So close to where he says you ordered a

17 tank to destroy a house, you did order a tank to destroy a house. He says

18 civilians ran from the house which had not been seen to be offering any

19 fire. Did civilians run from the house, as he told us? Did they?

20 A. The words of that witness are sheer nonsense. I knew that that

21 house had been turned into a fortification. There were no civilians

22 there. It wasn't in that village that the witness is talking about. I've

23 already said where that house was. No one else could have issued the

24 order for the tank to open fire, as you know from the previous tabs and

25 orders, except for me, and I issued orders only when I personally knew

Page 42250

1 that this was a target where terrorists were. It wasn't my tank leader

2 who could open fire on his own and just shoot at a particular feature.

3 Q. Am I --

4 A. We have gone through that tab, or that order, today.

5 Q. Am I right that when you let out that you'd ordered the

6 destruction of this house this was indeed the first time that you'd

7 mentioned it in Court?

8 A. I did not let anything out of my mouth because I came here to this

9 Court to tell the truth, and you should think about the credibility of

10 your own witnesses and the lies they told in this courtroom. I'm always

11 going to say before this Court everything that I ordered and everything

12 that I did. I'm going to repeat 100 times, if necessary: Yes, I issued

13 the order to fire at the house where terrorists were.

14 Q. It's a very simple question. I'll ask it again. If you don't

15 like the phrase "let out," I'll use another one. When you told the

16 learned Judges a few minutes ago about destroying a house with your tank,

17 was that the first time you had mentioned that in this Court?

18 A. That house was not destroyed, because a house cannot be destroyed

19 with one shell only. So far we haven't talked about this particular time

20 and this particular event.

21 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... since you find it so

22 difficult, I'm going to ask it more simply still. When you told the

23 Judges a few minutes ago about your giving an order that the tank should

24 shell this house, was that the first time you had mentioned that in this

25 Court?

Page 42251

1 A. In this Court this is the first time that I'm talking about this

2 event, so it is only natural that this is the first time I mentioned it.

3 Q. Have you brought with you any documents of a contemporaneous

4 nature that deal with this firing of a tank at a house on your orders?

5 A. This is sheer nonsense to keep records of each and every fired

6 bullet. No such thing exists in any army.

7 Q. Well, amongst the various records kept day by day, what a tank

8 does, where it goes, and what it does by way of attempting to destroy the

9 enemy is presumably one of the things, if not the central thing, that

10 should be recorded, isn't it?

11 A. No. Such records are not kept.

12 Q. And indeed we can see -- we will see quite a lot of records of

13 yours with details of what's been fired. But also, this was the centre of

14 terrorists. Did you not want to record somewhere that you'd fired your

15 tank and destroyed a terrorist stronghold? A matter of complete

16 irrelevance to the day, was it?

17 A. A base and one single feature, those are two different things. A

18 base is a broader locality where terrorist forces are. This is a house

19 that was turned into a stronghold, a bunker of the terrorists, from which

20 they controlled movement along a road and fired at vehicles. So what

21 would that be like if I wrote to my corps commander to say that I issued

22 an order today to have a tank fire a shell? That's nonsense. You don't

23 write to your corps that way. You write about larger quantities of one or

24 the other particular type of ammunition.

25 Q. Why were you, the brigade commander, doing this sort of subunit

Page 42252

1 work? Why weren't you at your command headquarters?

2 A. Mr. Nice, you have a short memory span. We went through a few

3 tabs today in which the commander ordered who it was who could permit

4 gunfire. I'm not going to be sitting in my office 40 kilometres away

5 without having my unit under control, my unit that is in combat. The

6 corps commander ordered that, and you read that out today, and after that

7 you read out my own order that only the corps commander can allow fire to

8 be open or, rather, the commander of the brigade. My commanders who were

9 in the field did not have the right to order the use of such weapons. Only

10 I could do that. And I couldn't do that from my headquarters in Prizren,

11 I could only do that on the spot.

12 Q. Very well. If you had to be personally present at every firing of

13 a tank round, then that simply rather confirms, doesn't it, what K32 told

14 us. And I suggest to you, Mr. Delic, you have been caught out by letting

15 drop that you did -- letting slip that you did in fact turn the tank on

16 this house.

17 A. That's ludicrous what you're saying, Mr. Nice. I am a Serbian

18 general, and I'm the commander of a brigade. Therefore, I am responsible

19 for each of my orders. What I did was to open fire at a terrorist

20 stronghold. That is my right because I was defending my country there.

21 As to your comments that you have caught me out or anything like

22 that, that's sheer nonsense.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: And what happened to the inhabitants of the house

24 on which you turned fire?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, in that particular house for

Page 42253

1 months there were no inhabitants. The inhabitants were expelled by the

2 terrorists, and since the house was in a very suitable spot because you

3 could control the bridge on the Drim River from that house at a place

4 called Kramovik, those civilians were probably in some other village or --

5 anyway, they weren't in the house. There were no civilians in the house

6 ever during those two months prior to this event. So at that place, at

7 that bridge, and there was a police checkpoint close by, nine of our men

8 were killed by firing coming from that house.


10 Q. Can we return just very briefly to tab 104. You will recall it

11 was the one that dealt with the destruction and torching of houses,

12 Pavkovic's order. Let's look at the order itself.

13 If Mr. Prendergast can move it up a little bit, to point number

14 2.

15 What General Pavkovic ordered was: "Prohibit causing damage to

16 facilities in settlements from which Siptar terrorists have been expelled,

17 regardless of whether they stayed in them earlier and put up resistance

18 from them. Particularly forbid torching of houses and other economic and

19 auxiliary buildings."

20 The army, was it on a rampage of torching buildings until

21 restrained by General Pavkovic, perhaps because of the presence of

22 international observers? Is that what this passage reveals to us?

23 A. No. Your observation is not accurate. What General Pavkovic

24 ordered here relates to individual cases, that is to say individual cases

25 where discipline was violated, and the object of paragraph 2 was to

Page 42254

1 prevent that kind of conduct. So we cannot speak about any uncontrolled

2 behaviour on the part of the forces. It wouldn't be an army if that were

3 the case.

4 MR. NICE: Your Honours, I see the time. Mr. Kay, I believe, or

5 Ms. Higgins, have or has organised the possible screening of the passage

6 of Lord Ashdown's evidence where he points on a map to the locations

7 concerned. We've been provided with photocopies or prints of what we're

8 about to see, and I suspect that before the picture is viewed it may help

9 if I display on the overhead projector -- well, they've been marked

10 slightly by us. Let's look at the first one, please.

11 Now, the first -- I'm not getting anything on my screen. I've

12 gone into a state of frozen suspense. Does the Court have effective

13 overhead projector display? Ah, yes, there it is.

14 Now, the first one, and -- is a frame or frozen picture of the

15 footage that we're about to see. It's a much smaller scale map. One can

16 see that Djakovica is towards the right and the border underneath the

17 pointer to the left, and you can see that written to the right of the arm

18 of the pointer has been added the word "Ponosevac."

19 Q. Just looking at that, please, Mr. Delic, you'll see it on, I

20 think, the film in a minute, you'll see Junik's also been written in above

21 that. So it's a very small scale map, but subject to that, the position

22 indicated by Lord Ashdown, if this is what we're going to see, is very

23 much the same position that he's marked on the map that he showed us or

24 was provided to us since last week; correct?

25 A. What do you mean? What is correct? What are you asking me about?

Page 42255

1 Q. Well, I thought the question was simple but I'm sorry if you

2 didn't follow it. Where he's pointing, assuming this is what we're going

3 to see, where he's pointing is substantially the same as the observation

4 point he's marked for us on the map I showed you this morning.

5 A. That's not correct either. This position corresponds more to the

6 position that I marked when I drew up the map. So this is right above the

7 Cafa Morina pass, and what he's indicating is near the village of Gegaj.

8 So the villages right by here.

9 Now, what you showed us later on is a little above that. You have

10 brought a map of such a small scale, but when Lord Ashdown pointed to this

11 I definitely can say now that Lord Ashdown could not from that point see

12 what you are presenting here. I am very definite on that point now.

13 Q. Mr. Delic, Lord Ashdown gave evidence to which his markings on a

14 map with a pointer were indicative, but we note your observation.

15 MR. NICE: Could the other one be shown, please, Mr. Prendergast.

16 Q. And here --

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, when you said "indicative," you mean it

18 was an approximation.

19 MR. NICE: Yes. We'll see what Lord Ashdown says, if it comes out

20 on the transcript that Mr. Kay has helpfully identified for us.

21 Q. Here we see Orahovac highlighted or outlined to the left and

22 underneath the figure 24 and above Suva Reka we see the point that he's

23 indicated as I understand it there. All right? You wanted to know what

24 these points were. And if time allows and if the video --

25 A. Let's just make ourselves understood. Where the top of the

Page 42256

1 pointer is, and it's probably the same pointer I have in my hand now, that

2 that top of the indicator denotes the place where Lord Ashdown was

3 located. I'll check this out for tomorrow. But as to the first footage,

4 I can say quite definitely, and all experts in topography can bear this

5 out, that what I wrote and what the Geographic Institute showed, only that

6 is what Lord Ashdown could have seen. As to this, I'll check it out by

7 tomorrow.

8 Q. Just before we view the film, because you've been very clear and

9 emphatic in your rejection of Lord Ashdown, you realise that he reported

10 matters to the Prime Minister in England, I think, after the first visit,

11 and he had a meeting with this accused after the second. Is there

12 anything known to you that would explain why Lord Ashdown would want to

13 make up something, since you're so emphatic that he's got it wrong? And

14 don't feel inhibited. You say whatever you want to. Tell us: Why should

15 he make it up?

16 A. Well, that's not my problem. My problem is from the professional

17 aspect.

18 Q. You've been very emphatic, and we've had all sorts of allegations

19 made, and this is 1998 when the international community was trying, you

20 may think, to save Kosovo from the fate into which it fell and where Lord

21 Ashdown was reporting things back contemporaneously. Can you point to any

22 reason why he might want to make this stuff up?

23 A. Well, we were able to see how it was that the international

24 community saved Kosovo. I taught military topography, and I am only

25 giving my professional opinion as to what can be seen from this particular

Page 42257












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13 English transcripts.













Page 42258

1 point, and what I state, what I have been saying you can give your

2 military geographical institutes and your experts to check out and give

3 you their opinion whether what I say is correct or not.

4 The motives of Lord Ashdown are unknown quantities, as far as I'm

5 concerned, and you will I'm sure recognise that I haven't come to this

6 courtroom to guess as to what Lord Ashdown was thinking or thought. All

7 I'm saying is for the point that was shown, and what I'm saying that what

8 he said there does not correspond to the situation and he couldn't have

9 seen what he said he saw from that point.

10 MR. NICE: Could we just play the video if, as I understand, it's

11 available.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, let the video be played.

13 [Videotape played]

14 "Q. Now, while in Albania on this visit, and indeed at this part

15 of your visit, were you able to keep observation, through binoculars, on

16 the area of Junik, which we can see? Perhaps you can just point it out

17 for us.

18 "A. I was. I journeyed from Bajram Curiju through Trepoje, along

19 the lines here - there was a very rough track up to the border crossing

20 here - and then followed this border crossing up to a point on the

21 Albanian-Kosovo border, approximately where my marker is now, above a

22 village which I was informed was called Gegaj, G-e-g-a-j. And this gave

23 me a very good view of the whole area around south of Junik. There are

24 some small villages down here. And indeed, I could see deep into Kosovo,

25 because this is an area of plains here, almost as far as Pristina."

Page 42259

1 "A. So I was positioned approximately here, near the village of

2 Pecani. The -- as we calculate, the guns that were firing were up here in

3 the area of Blace. The villages we were looking at were the villages of

4 Budakovo, which is here, through to Vranic, which is over here, Maciteve,

5 which is here, and Krusica. Both Gornji Krusica -- Gornji Krusica is up

6 here, and Krusica is down here."


8 Q. That's the way he dealt with it. That's the extent to which, by

9 his pointer, he was being approximate or detailed. You're challenging

10 that he was able to see in general terms the things he said he was able to

11 see in general terms.

12 A. Place the diagram on the overhead projector and we can see what he

13 could have seen and what he could not have seen.

14 Q. To whom was that request addressed?

15 A. Well, you said to me -- you're telling me that I'm challenging the

16 fact that he could have seen that. So on the diagram we have the

17 shaded-in areas that he could see and the surfaces -- surface areas he

18 could not see. So directly he could see part of the village of Morina and

19 a group of houses from Morina village. That village is not grouped, but

20 each household, each family has several houses, and they are at a distance

21 of several hundred metres or even one kilometre away from each other.

22 It's a very scattered type of village. So that was close by, and he could

23 see that within a radius of about three kilometres. Anything further

24 linked to Ponosevac and Moric I've already explained about. So any expert,

25 if you -- if he just took the facts and figures about altitudes, absolute

Page 42260

1 and relative altitudes of individual points, will arrive at the conclusion

2 straight away as to what can be seen and what cannot be seen.

3 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'm not going to take that any further at

4 the moment. You've got the answers.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: I agree, Mr. Nice. I think we have gone as far

6 with this as is reasonable.

7 We will adjourn for today and resume tomorrow at 9.00.

8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.42 p.m.,

9 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 13th day

10 of July, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.