Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 42766

1 Thursday, 18 August 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Saxon.

6 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.


8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 Cross-examined by Mr. Saxon: [Continued]

10 Q. Yesterday you told the Trial Chamber that you had been arrested

11 approximately ten times in Kosovo for illegal possession of weapons. Do

12 you recall that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. If we were to examine the court files and the criminal records of

15 your arrest and any convictions, what would these records show?

16 A. They were not criminal convictions, but it was just my wish to

17 illegally keep a weapon.

18 Q. You said that you were in prison at one point for a year and a

19 half. Why were you imprisoned for a year and a half?

20 A. I was in prison for an illegal possession of weapon.

21 Q. That's a long time to be in prison for the illegal possession of a

22 weapon; correct?

23 A. It was not that I did it for a long -- for a continuous period of

24 time. I did it once for ten days, for 15 days, for 20 days, and so on.

25 Q. You said yesterday that your longest period of imprisonment was

Page 42767

1 for a year and a half. My question is: Why were you sent to prison for a

2 year and a half? What did you do?

3 A. I'm telling you: For illegal arm possession.

4 Q. I'd like to show you an article found on the Internet last night.

5 If copies could be distributed and a copy placed on the ELMO,

6 please.

7 This is a note taken from a website called,

8 called "KLA Terror Cleansing," and there is an article here from the AFP

9 news service. It's dated October 9, 1999, but I believe that is

10 incorrect; it should be October 9, 1998. It's titled "Albanian Villagers

11 Arm Themselves Against KLA."

12 The first paragraph reads like this: "Osek Hilja, Yugoslavia,

13 October 9. Many see him as a spy or a traitor but 78-year-old Mushk

14 Jakupi doesn't care. For this aging ethnic Albanian in Kosovo, who

15 started up a village militia loyal to Serbian authorities, it's the

16 separatist Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) that is to blame for the latest

17 problems in the province."

18 So this appears to be an interview, sir, with your father from

19 October 1998. And in the next paragraph, it says: "'When I saw what they

20 were doing, I decided that we would not let the KLA enter our village,'

21 said Jakupi, a cafe owner in this locality near Djakovica in western

22 Kosovo."

23 The next paragraph: "He started up a local self-defence group,

24 with the benediction of Serbian police, that now keeps close watch over

25 this village of 1.600 ethnic Albanians."

Page 42768

1 Lower down, it discusses a sheet of paper ripped out of a

2 notebook, saying, "Either you are with us or we will burn down your

3 houses. Join your brothers." Signed, the Kosovo Liberation Army.

4 But if we could turn to the next page, please, there's something I

5 want to focus on. Middle of the next page, it says this: "But the local

6 regime imposed on the village by Jakupi and his men is not welcomed by

7 everyone. 'I would prefer to have my house burnt down than to live like

8 this' --" this is in the fifth paragraph on the second page -- "said the

9 local representative of the Kosovo Democratic League, the party of

10 Kosovo's moderate ethnic Albanian political leader."

11 Two paragraphs further down, it says: "Between the police here

12 and Jakupi's self-defence group, 'We feel like we are in prison,' said

13 this man of 52 who asked not to be named. He pointed to the local police

14 station on a nearby hilltop, with what he said were about 30 policemen."

15 Two paragraphs further down, it says: "He said he himself had not

16 been able to get to Djakovica for the last four months because police

17 'mistreated' him each time he tried to get through the checkpoint, then

18 sent him back to his farm."

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's have a question now, Mr. Saxon.


21 Q. My question is this: Do you think it's possible, sir, that your

22 local security unit at times went a bit too far in imposing control on the

23 people in your village?

24 A. The local defence has assisted the people. Wherever there was

25 local defence, no damage was incurred to the people.

Page 42769

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Can I clarify one point. Were you on one occasion

2 imprisoned for 18 months?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was, but not for 18 months.

4 Altogether I was, as I said; once for 20 days, once for 15 days, and

5 altogether the sentence term amounted to 18 months.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: I have to say, Mr. Saxon, that's how I understood

7 yesterday's evidence.

8 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I stand corrected. Reading the LiveNote

9 I read something differently last night, but I stand corrected.

10 Q. Yesterday you described an incident in your village where two

11 soldiers came and accosted a woman in the village. Do you recall that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And you described how eventually, after the intervention of the

14 MUP, that after two or three days you received information that the

15 soldiers were sentenced in Prizren, one to six years and the other to

16 seven years in gaol; correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, the Serb authorities had a strong interest in prosecuting

19 soldiers who committed crimes in Kosovo villages like yours that were

20 collaborating with the Serb regime. Isn't that correct?

21 A. In this case in the Osek village, I was the one who discovered it

22 with the help of the local police. It was not the police or the army that

23 discovered it.

24 Q. My question was something different, sir. My question was whether

25 the Serb authorities would have a strong interest in ensuring that

Page 42770

1 soldiers who committed crimes in villages like yours that were

2 collaborating with the Serb government be prosecuted. Do you agree with

3 that?

4 A. I don't know what kind of interest the Serb army had. I know only

5 what happened and that the perpetrators were sentenced.

6 Q. Well, you see, if the Serb regime did not prosecute persons who

7 committed crimes in villages like yours that were collaborating with the

8 Serb authorities, then the regime would risk losing that collaboration.

9 Isn't that correct?

10 A. As far as my village is concerned, I may assure you that nobody

11 had need to intervene, because everything was corrected the first time it

12 happened.

13 Q. Yesterday you made some very serious charges against Ambassador

14 William Walker. You referred to an incident where Ambassador Walker came

15 to your home and accused your father of raping two minor females. Do you

16 remember that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you referred to Mr. Walker going to the KLA staff every night

19 between 11.00 and 12.00 p.m. in Glodjane. Do you remember that?

20 A. Yes, I do.

21 Q. If we can put on the ELMO, please, the next document.

22 The Office of the Prosecutor communicated with William Walker last

23 evening and sent him a copy of your comments yesterday, and what I'm

24 distributing around the courtroom is an e-mail message from Ambassador

25 Walker that I just want to summarise to you, if I may, and get your

Page 42771

1 reaction to it.

2 Ambassador Walker said: "I've read the references to me --" this

3 is in the first paragraph -- "by Muharem Ibraj and can only say that

4 either - he has confused me with someone else, or is making his story up

5 out of whole cloth. None of it relates to anything I was involved in."

6 Is it possible that you may have confused Ambassador Walker with

7 someone else, sir?

8 A. No. I know him pretty well, sir.

9 Q. The next paragraph, Ambassador Walker says that he never wore an

10 American flag patch on his sleeve and that there was no cause for any

11 civilian verifier to wear a badge identifying national origin. "We were

12 there as 'internationals'," he said, "and I felt strongly about not

13 presenting myself as 'an American.'" Is it possible you saw a flag that

14 you took to be an American flag but that was a symbol of something else?

15 A. Today I don't know what he is saying, but that day he introduced

16 himself by saying that Serbia no longer exists.

17 Q. In the fourth paragraph, Mr. Walker says that the purported

18 conversation with your elderly father, accusing him of rape, never took

19 place "... at least not with me," he said.

20 If such a conversation had taken place, don't you think Ambassador

21 Walker would have recalled it?

22 A. Everyone knows that an 80-year-old man is not capable of taking

23 care of his own wife let alone pester some minors.

24 Q. Ambassador Walker also tells us that: "The claim that I visited

25 the KLA staff in a village called Glodjane, every night between 11 and 12

Page 42772

1 p.m. is also a fabrication. I was seldom out of Pristina after dark, and

2 never had a meeting with anyone between 11 and 12 p.m. My meetings with

3 KLA representatives were few and far between, 3 or 4 to arrange the KLA's

4 release of two Serb journalists and an exchange of the two sides' captured

5 soldiers. Both of these activities were at the specific request of

6 Milosevic. I had 2-3 other encounters with KLA regional commanders to try

7 to hold the shaky truce together. I repeat, I had no late-night meetings

8 anywhere, with anyone of the KLA."

9 The truth is, sir, the story you've told about your interactions

10 and observations of William Walker are a tissue of lies. Isn't that

11 correct, sir?

12 A. They are not lies. They are truths.

13 Q. "In a word," says Ambassador Walker, "his testimony -" your

14 testimony, sir - "is ludicrous in the extreme..." Do you agree with that

15 statement?

16 A. It may be ludicrous for him because it doesn't suit him, because

17 I'm telling the truth as to what happened that day.

18 Q. Yesterday you were describing the events in the city of Djakovica

19 after the 24th of March, 1999, and you described how the bazaar, the old

20 bazaar in Djakovica was bombed by NATO. Do you recall that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. I'd like place a copy of Exhibit 88, tab 18, on the ELMO, please.

23 This is a part of an expert report, sir, presented by a man called Andras

24 Riedlmayer, and this particular section describes his visit to Gjakove.

25 If we can close in a little bit more so we can read the words under the

Page 42773

1 word "Damage." We need to read the paragraphs under the word

2 "Damage." And this is Dr. Riedlmayer's description of what he saw when he

3 visited the old bazaar after the war in 1999 in Djakovica.

4 "Nearly all the shops in the historic market burned out, in a wide

5 area covering several city blocks surrounding the Hadum Mosque.

6 "Destruction covers the entirety of historic bazaar area

7 designated for protection ..."

8 And then at the end of that second paragraph: "Building interiors

9 burned out to rooflines."

10 And then in the third paragraph it says: "Roofs collapsed,

11 dividing walls between shops mostly intact, in many cases with the

12 original roof tiles still lined up along tops of walls undisturbed. No

13 signs of the blast damage that would have been expected if the bazaar had

14 really been hit by airstrikes."

15 Would you agree, sir, that Dr. Riedlmayer's report indicates that

16 the old bazaar in Gjakove was deliberately burned rather than bombed?

17 Would you agree with that?

18 A. No, I do not. The old bazaar was bombed. The small - excuse me -

19 bazaar, the police station, and the fruit juice factory, they were the

20 facilities that were bombed.

21 Q. Turning to the events in the neighbourhood of Qerim in Gjakove.

22 Yesterday you told us that none of the houses in the Qerim neighbourhood

23 were destroyed or razed to the ground. Do you recall that testimony?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I'd like to show you a photograph, if I can. If this could be

Page 42774












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 42775

1 placed on the ELMO, please.

2 Sir, do you recognise this man? His name is Behar Haxhiavdija.

3 He's from Gjakove.

4 A. Yes, I know him.

5 Q. Do you know anything about his character, his ability to tell the

6 truth?

7 A. No.

8 Q. You see, Behar Haxhiavdija --

9 MR. SAXON: And this is a witness, Your Honours, who testified on

10 the 2nd of September, 2002. His -- you can find his testimony at page

11 9314 of the transcript. His statement was Exhibit 303.

12 Q. Sir, Mr. Haxhiavdija was a resident of Gjakove who took shelter in

13 a house, the house of his Kosovo Albanian brother-in-law, at 157 Milos

14 Gilic Street, in early April 1999. And the witness testified as well, in

15 addition to his father, that his wife, his children, and other members of

16 his family were killed by Serb forces and the houses where they had taken

17 shelter on Milos Gilic Street burned to the ground.

18 Do you have any reason to believe why this person would not be

19 telling the truth?

20 A. After the war, there may have been houses burned and damaged but

21 not during the war.

22 Q. That's not the --

23 A. In the village of Qerim.

24 Q. Do you have any reason to suggest why this person and his father,

25 Ismet Haxhiavdija, another man by the name of Hani Hoxha, would come into

Page 42776

1 this courtroom, take the oath that you took, sit where you're sitting, and

2 lie about the events in that neighbourhood?

3 A. I don't know. There is no way how I can know. I haven't heard

4 anything about that. And I don't know what interest he has had in

5 testifying here. Probably what has -- what he has said has happened, but

6 I don't know about that.

7 Q. Sir, your village, the village of Osek Hilja, was never attacked

8 by Serb forces during 1999; correct?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. After the 24th of March, 1999, Serb police and army initiated an

11 operation to cleanse Djakovo of the Kosovo Albanian population. Isn't

12 that true?

13 A. I don't know.

14 Q. The residents of so-called loyal villages like Osek Hilja, the

15 villages where people like yourselves were collaborating with the Serb

16 authorities, were allowed to remain in Kosovo. Isn't that true?

17 A. It is not true.

18 Q. And you and members of the so-called local security unit were part

19 of this criminal plan and took an active role in it. Isn't that true,

20 sir?

21 A. No, this is not true.

22 MR. SAXON: That's all I have, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Saxon.

24 Any re-examination, Mr. Milosevic?

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, thank you.

Page 42777

1 Re-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

2 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Ibraj, last night I saw on TV Belgrade that

3 you had stated here that the state in Kosovo used to arrest people

4 involved in politics. Did you say anything of the kind in fact?

5 A. I have said that the state never arrest anyone for political

6 motives, only for illegal arms possessions, for murders, for thefts, and

7 so on. But I've never heard of the state service arresting anyone for

8 political motives. The Albanian flag was used in Kosovo. The Albanian

9 language was used as well in schools until the end of the war.

10 Q. Well, all right. We can probably ascribe that to some errors in

11 the interpretation. But after that, a term was used here -- I don't know

12 Albanian, but you know Serbian and I will ask for your assistance. You

13 were asked who was involved in politics, and the interpretation came

14 through that those who were authorised to do so were involved in politics.

15 Did you use that term "authorised"? The people who were politically

16 active were those who were authorised to be?

17 A. Anyone who was involved in politics was an authorised person in

18 the eyes of the Serb state. Second, it may be a misunderstanding ensuing

19 from interpretation. I already said that when I was a member of the LDK

20 and I wanted to vote, when I returned home I ran across the police patrol,

21 and they didn't say anything to me, but the translation was that I found a

22 tin of petrol in front of my home. I don't know what connection there is

23 between a police patrol and a petrol.

24 Q. Very well. Did I understand correctly when you said that anyone

25 who was involved in politics was an authorised person, you meant that

Page 42778

1 anybody could be politically active if they wanted to?

2 A. As far as I know, Ibrahim Rugova was the chairman of the

3 Democratic League of Kosovo, and we others were members until the end of

4 the war, but nobody harassed us for being members of that party. I don't

5 know anything else.

6 Q. All right. I think we've clarified this sufficiently. Mr. Saxon

7 produced to you your own statement in the English language, and you

8 confirmed that it bore your signature. Do you remember that from

9 yesterday?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Mr. Ibraj, do you know English?

12 A. No, I don't.

13 Q. So you signed a statement in the English language, which you do

14 not know. Were you given to read your statement in your own mother

15 tongue, Albanian?

16 A. There was an interpreter there. I don't know him. He read the

17 statement to me, he translated it to me, and I signed it.

18 Q. Very well. Now, quite by chance yesterday, because I couldn't

19 even know these facts when I was quoting passages from your statement that

20 I received yesterday -- the pages are not numbered but it should be the

21 fourth page, including the cover page -- I read out to you something from

22 the statement. I will quote: "[In English] When my son Kujtim Ibraj was

23 taken away by the UCK, he was together with Isa Ibraj and a person with

24 name Ram Ademaj. Ademaj was released one day later while my son Kujtim

25 and Isa Ibraj are still missing."

Page 42779

1 [Interpretation] When I read this out to you, you said this was

2 incorrect because Ram Ademaj is in fact the person who abducted your son.

3 He was not abducted together with him, he was the one who abducted your

4 son. Is that what you said yesterday?

5 A. Yes, that's right. Ram Ademaj came around with 20 KLA members,

6 and he arrested my son and my brother, but he himself was not arrested.

7 It was he who arrested my son and my brother.

8 Q. Very well. If the interpreter had read this to you, would you

9 have signed the statement as it was or would you have made the correction

10 that you made yesterday?

11 A. I would have improved it, of course. I would have corrected it,

12 because it was not what I said.

13 Q. Well, Mr. Saxon said here that the statement had been read back to

14 you, that you had confirmed it and signed it. Could that be taken as your

15 confirmation of the veracity of what is written, or not, based on what we

16 have just seen?

17 A. The interpreter read it out to me. Whatever I understood, I

18 understood. But I signed it just the same even if I didn't understand

19 some parts of it, because we were there for some six hours.

20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ibraj. That would be enough about the contents of

21 your statement.

22 Now, there is another area that is unclear concerning how you were

23 elected. Let us try to clear that up.

24 MR. SAXON: Your Honours.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Saxon, yes.

Page 42780

1 MR. SAXON: I don't believe that the issue of "how Mr. Ibraj was

2 elected" came up during my cross-examination of the witness, Your Honour,

3 so it would not be food for redirect examination.

4 JUDGE KWON: I think you asked some questions during your

5 cross-examination. I'm not sure.

6 MR. SAXON: I don't believe I did, Your Honour, but I'm willing to

7 be corrected one more time.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, can you direct us to the part of

9 the cross-examination where that arises.

10 JUDGE KWON: Not you, but I --

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No problem. No problem whatsoever.

12 Mr. Saxon mentioned it just a moment ago, speaking of some web page that

13 he downloaded last night concerning the fact that people did not accept

14 the local security, that they were against local security. I'm just

15 trying to verify this. That is the reference, and I'm asking, following

16 up on that, how he was elected or selected and whether this can be --

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Very well, Mr. Milosevic.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. So I'm asking again: Who elected you?

20 A. I said yesterday as well the Osek Hilja village has 168

21 households. Approximately it has about 1.700 inhabitants. If the village

22 of Osek didn't elect me, someone would have come up and expressed his

23 opposition against my election, but during the war nobody said anything,

24 and six years have passed since that time and again nobody has said

25 anything now that they are free. They don't have any Serb militia or

Page 42781

1 police or army there, so they can say what they want, and they haven't

2 done so.

3 JUDGE KWON: I think this question was a bit distorted. Yesterday

4 he said he was appointed by the president of the municipality, not elected

5 by the people.

6 Could you clarify that question, Mr. Ibraj. You were appointed by

7 Mr. Stanojevic, not by the people in Osek Hilja?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't say I was appointed by the

9 commune chairman. He called us, we had a meeting with him, and they

10 brought the decision. Every village had a representative in that meeting.

11 So the villagers held meetings in every village and elected the local

12 defence members. This is what I said yesterday. I'm saying today too.

13 Osek Hilja village elected me and Mihil Abazi. Every village elected

14 their own members of the defence force. The commune chairman only signed

15 the decision. And this is what I said yesterday and I'm telling again

16 today. And I'm repeating: If the village didn't elect me, there would

17 have been someone who opposed that decision and said that I was not

18 elected.

19 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Proceed, Mr. Milosevic.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. So you went to see the president of the municipality on behalf of

22 the village that elected you, and then the president of the municipality

23 invited the elected representatives of villages. Is that what you're

24 saying?

25 A. Yes, that's true, and then he signed the decisions.

Page 42782

1 Q. And then the president of the municipality adopted decisions

2 appointing you as local security members so that you can obtain uniforms,

3 weapons, and all the rest that you needed. Was that the essence of the

4 role of the president of the municipality?

5 A. Yes, that's right.

6 Q. All right. In this article taken from a web page quoted by

7 Mr. Saxon, he quoted certain passages, and I will quote from page 2,

8 paragraph 3. It says: "His militia--" I don't know why they're putting

9 "militia" under quotation marks -- "numbers about 20 men ..."

10 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Milosevic, there are many websites, web pages

11 referred to by Mr. Saxon. Could you identify the document first of all.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is the last one that Mr. Saxon

13 said he'd found last night. It says "srpska-mreza/sirius/KLA-Terror-

14 Cleansing," et cetera.

15 "[In English] Not all villages go along with the KLA's armed

16 struggle for independence, and Albanians who resist KLA may be Muslim,

17 Catholic and Orthodox Christians."

18 [Interpretation] So that was found on the Internet. And then

19 there is another reference on page 1, at the beginning. "Osek Hilja."

20 There is a reference to the 78-year-old Mushk Jakupi. That is the father

21 of this witness.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, we have it, so you proceed with

23 your question.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Now, on page 2 it says: "[In English] His 'militia' numbers about

Page 42783












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 42784

1 20 men, two of whom wore police uniforms. Recently, Jakupi said, they

2 seized weapons that had been supplied by the KLA rebels from the homes of

3 Osek Hilja villagers."

4 [Interpretation] And now he quotes -- he quotes your father. I'm

5 reading it out: "[In English] 'We forced them to leave the village. But

6 no one was killed. No home was burned. Not even a chicken was hurt,' he

7 said."

8 [Interpretation] So was the point of your activity to avoid all

9 violence in the village, not to allow the KLA to enter the village so the

10 army and the police would have no need to come?

11 MR. SAXON: That was a very leading question, Your Honour, "Was

12 the point of your activity..." et cetera. Perhaps the question can be

13 rephrased.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you will have to reformulate that

15 question.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Tell me, please, Mr. Ibraj, is it the case that from the moment

19 you were elected by the villagers to lead the security of your village

20 until the end of the war there were any casualties in the village?

21 A. I think I told you yesterday. I informed you about the two

22 instances, that with the army and that -- that was -- that involved

23 myself. But that -- those two were the two instances. Otherwise, we

24 didn't have anything else.

25 Q. You have explained that already. But did you indeed, as it says

Page 42785

1 in these various excerpts that we looked at yesterday, maltreat your

2 villagers, beat them, rape them? Did anything of that kind happen in the

3 village?

4 A. What the Prosecutor read out to me yesterday and today, they have

5 to do with people whom I don't know. If I had done any of the accusations

6 he asked me, then there would have been someone in the village who would

7 have told me, because as I said, there are about 1.700 inhabitants. And

8 nobody has ever said or accused me of maltreatment or doing any harm to

9 them other than assisting them and ensuring that the school was

10 functioning during all the time of the war.

11 Q. So even the school operated throughout the war in your village.

12 A. Yes, during all the time of the war, the school was functioning.

13 Q. Now, with regard to what Mr. Saxon produced here yesterday, a

14 number of documents: KCC News, Free Kosova, Regions, Culture, NGO's,

15 Links. Kosova Crisis Center, that is a source that he showed us

16 yesterday, and then he quoted from page 2 about this event that you

17 described in detail in examination-in-chief. However, we read here: "The

18 Albanian, Sylejman Bajrami -" that is a man you mentioned in

19 examination-in-chief and whom you killed in self-defence - it says, "was

20 killed after having his house surrounded by Serbian forces."

21 Did Serbian forces surround Bajrami's house while Bajrami himself

22 was killed?

23 A. I think I said yesterday I was there with my members when that

24 occurred. I called the observers to come. After the observers, I called

25 the police to come, and the investigating judge. I called the police to

Page 42786

1 come to have them as witness to what had occurred, and not to use force or

2 anything, because there was no other incident. There was no forces that

3 encircled anything. After that, Sulejman Bajrami has five more brothers.

4 If that were true, what was read out to me yesterday, one of his brothers

5 or one of his children or his wife might have -- might have given a

6 statement. So what was read out is not true.

7 Q. All right. I will not quote to you from other similar accusations

8 presented by Mr. Saxon.

9 Six members of your family were abducted, weren't they?

10 A. That's true.

11 Q. Those who abducted six members of your family, were they the same

12 people who control the provision of these statements that are being

13 presented here?

14 MR. SAXON: Objection, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Saxon.

16 MR. SAXON: I don't think during cross-examination I asked the

17 witness about the abduction of members of his family.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: The question, Mr. Saxon, seems to relate to the

19 source of the statements that you presented.

20 MR. SAXON: Well, Your Honour, the question begins, "Those who

21 abducted six members of your family," and then it says, "were they..."

22 You have to read the question together. There is a clear connection

23 between both parts of the question, Your Honour, and I did not make any

24 inquiries with the witness regarding the tragic loss of members of his

25 family.

Page 42787

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: I will not allow it, Mr. Milosevic. Move on.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Mr. Ibraj, at one point yesterday while answering the questions of

5 Mr. Saxon, the questions that Mr. Saxon presents as evidence of your

6 violent behaviour, you said that those witnesses were false witnesses.

7 Why did you use that term?

8 A. They were not false witnesses, then someone would have come out

9 from the very village where I live and given those statements. But out of

10 jealousy, because in Gjakove municipality the Osek village was the only

11 one that was not touched until the end of the war. Why didn't KLA dare

12 enter our village? In all the villages that the KLA has entered, the

13 village has either been burned, damaged, people have been killed,

14 everything has occurred, but not in Osek village. It was intact. This is

15 the reason why.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, in the transcript it

17 says, "They were not false witnesses," whereas the witness said something

18 else. He said, "If they were not false witnesses, then somebody would

19 have come out," and so on. He said had they not been or --

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. We're grateful for the

21 correction.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. So where do you see the connection? Why would these people be

24 making statements against you? I mean the people that gave these various

25 statements and documents.

Page 42788

1 A. They speak against me out of jealousy, because Osek village was

2 the only village that remained intact. And it was myself and some

3 collaborators of mine that assisted and defended the village. I think

4 this is the reason.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ibraj. Mr. Ibraj, can I ask you whether

6 there are other villages that had this close collaboration with the Serb

7 forces.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I know one thing:

9 That when the defence -- local defence was set up, the KLA killed many of

10 its members. And when they killed someone in a village, others didn't

11 dare continue.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: In your geographical area, your village Osek

13 Hilja was the only one that had a close collaboration with the Serb

14 forces?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were also some other villages

16 where there was local defence, but I said that when the KLA killed some

17 members of the local defence forces, people were scared to join the force,

18 and then the KLA took over.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. Ibraj, have you any knowledge of the number of people in the

22 wider Djakovica area, where you spent your entire life and the whole war,

23 were killed by the KLA, killed and abducted?

24 MR. SAXON: Objection, Your Honour. This is not part -- this

25 cannot have come out of the cross-examination, Your Honour. It cannot be

Page 42789

1 something that needs to be clarified based on the cross-examination.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, I agree. Mr. Milosevic, move on.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, you agree, but those

4 who killed this huge number of Albanians are certainly motivated to spread

5 such lies about the witness Ibraj. There is no doubt of that.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, I've ruled it does not arise out

7 of cross-examination.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Mr. Ibraj, in one of these documents -- I will not search for it

11 unless I'm forced to, although I believe perhaps I could find where this

12 is, it's a huge pile of paper brought by Mr. Saxon, but somewhere it says

13 that you maltreated citizens when you took them to the police station.

14 Tell us, please, did you have a police station in your local security?

15 A. We didn't have any police station of our own. We had -- we had an

16 office in the municipality building where we held meetings and when we got

17 our salaries. We didn't have any police station. Not only in Osek but in

18 none of the villages there was any police station.

19 Q. If I understand you correctly, you did not have a police station

20 to which you could take a citizen to maltreat him there, as it says in

21 these papers here.

22 A. We were not MUP police. We were village police. We were, or

23 otherwise, village security forces. As I said, we had our office in the

24 municipality building.

25 Q. Very well. Let me just -- just let me see whose statement this

Page 42790

1 is. It was presented by Mr. Saxon yesterday. Domi Durim, who made a

2 statement on the 8th of February, 2000. He says, and this was quoted to

3 you by Mr. Saxon: "On the 27th of March [In English] I was in my

4 courtyard together with my family. The police together with members of

5 Mush Jakupi arrived and they broke into the courtyard by forcing the gate.

6 All of us fled up to Qabrat hill. From there we saw police and Mush

7 Jakupi unit members while they were burning the houses of Afrim Domi and

8 Fatmir Domi."

9 [Interpretation] Please, did this event take place?

10 A. On the day that it's mentioned there, Mushk Jakupi was in

11 hospital, in the hospital of Gjakove. In the last 15 years, he has been

12 suffering from gangrene. And in the last 20 years he has been to Gjakove

13 only three times, just to see the doctor. And these are not true.

14 Q. He goes on to say: "One could recognise the members of the Mush

15 Jakupi unit [In English] because they wore plain clothes, and they spoke

16 Albanian."

17 [Interpretation] So was your local security wearing ordinary

18 clothes or were you wearing the uniforms of the local security?

19 A. As I said yesterday, the defence -- the local defence had a

20 special uniform. It was neither a police or a military uniform. It was a

21 specific uniform pertaining to the local defence. There were two -- an

22 insignia on the arm and on the cap. It was written there only "Local

23 Defence," both in Albanian and in Serbian, and nothing more.

24 Q. Very well. But in any case, this was a uniform. It was not

25 civilian clothes, as was mentioned here.

Page 42791

1 MR. SAXON: That is quite a statement as opposed to a question,

2 Your Honour. "In any case, this was a uniform." He is putting words in

3 the witness's mouth. The witness has said, "We only wore insignia on our

4 arm and on our cap. That's all we wore." And I object to the form of the

5 question.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Reformulate it, Mr. Milosevic.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I thought it was sufficiently clear.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Did the members of the local security have uniforms or did they

10 have civilian clothes?

11 MR. SAXON: The question has been answered, Your Honour, answered

12 a few minutes ago by the witness. He can't keep repeating the question

13 simply because he doesn't like the answer he receives.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Quite so, Mr. Milosevic. Move on.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't understand. Mr. Ibraj

16 replied that they had uniforms. In this statement here it says they were

17 wearing civilian clothes, the members of his local security, and that they

18 were committing some kind of crimes. That's something completely

19 different. So what is there for me not to like?

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Do you know anything about this event where these people fled to

22 Cabrat hill, as it says here, and that someone torched the houses of Afrim

23 and Fatmir Domi?

24 A. I do not know anything about them, nor do I know those persons.

25 Q. In this same passage it says: "[In English] On 25 March in Asim

Page 42792












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 42793

1 Vokshi Street I saw MUP going to Mother Teresa Center..."

2 [Interpretation] Where is this centre in Djakovica?

3 A. This centre was behind the Pastrik Hotel. If you're talking about

4 the one centre that I'm thinking about. The centre used to distribute

5 aid. They distributed aid during the war, even before the war. The same

6 centre also distributed aid in my village. And it existed until the end

7 of the war. They distributed flour, other food, clothing, soap, oil, and

8 everyone was free to go there and take this aid. And this centre also

9 existed in my village too.

10 Q. What it says here is the following: It says he saw the MUP coming

11 to the Mother Teresa Centre, and it says "(local humanitarian agency),"

12 and then it says that first they looted and then burned down the centre,

13 which comprised three buildings. On the 25th of March, this man says,

14 they first looted - policemen, that is - and then burned the centre, which

15 comprised three buildings.

16 A. This is not true, because -- because the police was not there, and

17 I -- you could have people who could try to help and distribute those aid,

18 for example. This was in the house of Hasan Kupa [phoen] during the war.

19 Because the police did not need our aid, our assistance.

20 Q. Very well. Thank you. Thank you for testifying. I have no

21 further questions.

22 JUDGE KWON: I have just one minor question.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too. I thank you too.

24 Questioned by the Court:

25 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Ibraj, you said yesterday that your father had

Page 42794

1 been referred to as Mush Jakupi and your local defence members as Jakupi

2 unit, that -- the Muharem Ibraj is totally another person than you. Is

3 that right? I'm sorry, Muharem Jakupi is a different person from you.

4 A. Even yesterday I said that my name is Muharem Ibraj. Muharem

5 Jakupi is a neighbour of mine.


7 A. No one calls me Muharem Jakupi.

8 JUDGE KWON: My question is, Mr. Ibraj, whether Muharem Jakupi was

9 a member of your local defence.

10 A. No. He was a member of the police, of the Serbian police.

11 JUDGE KWON: Where; in Gjakove?

12 A. Yes, in Gjakove, but I think he has retired a few years ago.

13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ibraj, that concludes your evidence. Thank

15 you for coming to the Tribunal to give it. You may now leave.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

17 [The witness withdrew]

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Call your next witness, Mr. Milosevic.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The next witness is Saban Fazliu.

20 [The witness entered court]

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, I'd like to greet you,

23 Your Honours. Good morning. Good morning, Mister.

24 I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

25 and nothing but the truth.

Page 42795

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.


3 [Witness answered through interpreter]

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please begin, Mr. Milosevic.

5 Examined by Mr. Milosevic:

6 Q. Mr. Fazliu, would you please introduce yourself and give us some

7 details about where you were born, where you were educated, and where you

8 worked.

9 A. I was born in the village of -- in the village of Rivnik in Viti

10 municipality. I completed my elementary school there in the eight-year

11 school. In 1978, then I went to Ferizaj where I completed the elementary

12 school or secondary school, and then I lived in this place for the rest of

13 my life.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: In what year were you born?

15 A. I was born on the 15th of May, 1959.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. And what was the make-up of your village? I mean its ethnic

18 make-up. Was it a purely Albanian village? Was it a mixed village? What

19 was the composition of the population there?

20 A. My village was a mixed one, 50/50. When I was a little boy in

21 1975, at the time in 1978 people tried to leave the village and go to

22 Serbia. Some people were paid, some not, but most of them, they did not

23 get any money, but some of them, though they had a kind of a deal, they

24 did not get their money in the end. For the time being, no Serb can be

25 found in my village.

Page 42796

1 Q. When you lived there during your education, it was 50/50, as far

2 as I can understand, Serbs and Albanians in the village. What was the

3 language in which you were taught in school?

4 A. I was taught in the Albanian language. Only one subject was

5 taught in Serbian, and 50 per cent of the class was -- were -- was made up

6 of Serbian pupils. And they had the same as us. One, they had two

7 subjects per week which were taught in the Albanian language. We had the

8 same rights with them.

9 Q. Tell us, in view of the mixed ethnic composition of your village,

10 from your earliest childhood did you socialise with Serbs?

11 A. Yes. Yes. We socialised with Serbs until recently. We

12 socialised with them, we went with them to school together; in the

13 mountain, in the fields, everywhere we were together. But as of 1977,

14 nationalism tried to interfere in this in our company.

15 Q. When did these problems begin?

16 A. The problems began in 1977 when the first concert, as far as I

17 remember, was held in Ferizaj. They existed even before, since the

18 immigrants came from Albania to Kosovo, and since then, so as to say,

19 problems tried -- tried to interfere in the people's lives, like to go to

20 Albania, how to leave for Albania, how to escape the Serbs, and there were

21 some minor problems. In 1977, these problems really became bigger and

22 these -- the reason was just to get us away from the Serbs.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: The transcript says that the problems began in 1977

24 when the first concert was held in Ferizaj. What did you mean by

25 "concert"?

Page 42797

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The concert is a kind of a

2 contest, song contest, because they came from Albania as guests, and I was

3 a pupil there at the time. The first concert was held there, and various

4 songs were sung there, how to unite all the Albanian brothers, unite. And

5 I heard the term "nationalism" for the first time there.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Very well. We will not go into the entire history of these

8 events. I will ask you something about you personally now. Did you

9 continue to socialise with your Serb neighbours? What were your relations

10 like with members of the Serb ethnic community?

11 A. The majority of us Albanians socialised with Serbs and worked

12 together with them until the year 1998. The majority. Let's say 80 per

13 cent. And of this percentage, 10 per cent were against them.

14 Q. You say -- very well. Until 1998. And what happened in 1998?

15 Tell us, please.

16 A. First of all, I'd like to talk about myself. In 1991, I cannot

17 remember the date quite well, something occurred to me, happened to me

18 when our leaders issued the order not to talk to the Serbs, not to work

19 with the Serbs, not to have any kind of contact with them. It was spring.

20 It was spring, the time of agricultural work, because I worked there. No

21 one dared to incite, to cause problems between the neighbour -- between

22 neighbours. And it was only during the night that they managed to speak

23 to each other. To me, it happened at my neighbour. He said that I just

24 -- he said, "I can't find workers." And I told my neighbour that I had my

25 good relations with him and I'm the person who has come here and work. "I

Page 42798

1 will come and help you." And when I work -- when I went to work there --

2 Q. Just a moment. Mr. Fazliu, was your neighbour a Serb or an

3 Albanian?

4 A. Serbian.

5 Q. He was a Serb. Explain this, please.

6 A. I can even say his name. His name was Dzelatovic, Zarko, and I

7 used to plough the land with him, with his brother, with his father. We

8 used to plough the land all the time in the field. When we returned, as

9 it was getting dark, they -- normally Albanians returned together -- they

10 were about 20 or 30 people, and they offended me there. And then the

11 reason was why I went to him and plough the land.

12 Q. Why did they insult you?

13 A. This was the reason, because they had received an order from our

14 leaders not to go and work with the Serbs, not even talk to them. We

15 should -- we were ordered not to have any relations with them at all.

16 The next day, in the morning, when I woke up to work in my fields

17 alone with a friend of mine, an Albanian, my father and three -- my father

18 and three -- and three men -- a father and three men went there and beat

19 me up. At that time, I was in an illegal possession of a weapon, and then

20 they stopped me, and one of them who attacked me, and then I wounded him,

21 I shoot at him three times.

22 By this description, I would like to say that this is exactly what

23 happened to me, why I did not listen to what the leaders said. Those

24 leaders, even today they are not having in good post. That is why I was

25 unable to listen to them.

Page 42799

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Fazliu. When we return from the

2 break, you will answer Mr. Milosevic's question as to what happened in

3 1998.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just one correction.


6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In the transcript it says he was

7 attacked by his father. He says "my father --"

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: It was changed to "a father." It was changed to

9 "a father and three men." I saw that.

10 We will take the break now for 20 minutes.

11 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

12 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. You were asking the witness

14 about 1998.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Mr. Fazliu, you said that these relations were good until 1998.

18 What happened in 1998?

19 A. In 1998, the KLA started to go to the mountains armed, in bigger

20 numbers. I wanted to explain what befell me, if possible, something that

21 happened to me.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: When was this?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This happened to me in 1991.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: I thought you had already done that. Do you have

25 more to say about that incident?

Page 42800

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, a little bit more.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, you have to follow the lines of -- the line

3 of questioning set by Mr. Milosevic.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand, but I was interrupted,

5 Your Honours. If possible, I would like to continue. If not, then we can

6 continue with something else.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Let Mr. Milosevic continue his questioning

8 in relation to 1998. If necessary, he will guide you back to 1991.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Well, all right, but I think it makes more sense for you to finish

11 explaining what happened then. Tell us very briefly what it was that you

12 wanted to add to this.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, briefly.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to say that nationalism

15 began with my case, and the courts were working for justice, and I was

16 brought before court and tried even though I was not guilty. As a person,

17 I had the right to help whoever I wanted whenever I wanted. However, the

18 court sentenced me. The courts in Kosova followed the rules, and this I

19 can confirm with my own case.

20 This is what I wanted to say.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Thank you. Proceed, Mr. Milosevic.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. You started explaining, Mr. Fazliu, the year of 1998, and you said

24 that in that year many members of the KLA went into the mountains. What

25 happened in that year 1998?

Page 42801












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 42802

1 A. The order to get armed came. They were armed even earlier. The

2 arming in Kosovo began in 1992, and in 1998 in my municipality people

3 started joining in greater numbers and went to the mountains. In my

4 municipality, in the villages of Recak, Belince, Malev, Stimlje, they were

5 all linked or had connection with the Drenica part. I worked as a forest

6 ranger at the time, and I was always in the terrain, in the mountains,

7 because that was the sort of work I was doing, and this is how I got the

8 correct information.

9 Q. Does that mean that in your own setting where you worked as a

10 forest keeper, you said that you were in the hills all the time, were

11 there any extremists there, members of the KLA? What's this all about?

12 Were these certain groups or individuals that you came across? Who were

13 they? Who led them? Were any court proceedings instituted against any of

14 them? Could you tell us about that briefly.

15 A. Yes. A person who was a friend of mine, Adem Abazi, one of the

16 main figures in the KLA, we were together in school. I know him ever

17 since 1973. He was the leader of the Jezerce group and the group that

18 operated in Recak and Kacanik in Ferizaj municipality. He was sentenced

19 by the court in 1979 and completed four years of prison, a sentence of

20 four years' imprisonment.

21 My brother, half brother, Ekrem Fazliu, was one of them, one of

22 the persons sentenced for attempts to secede Kosova from Serbia and attach

23 it to Albania. The above person that I mentioned was one of the key

24 figures of the KLA. My brother was a member of the KLA Commission.

25 Q. Did you come across all of them? What commission?

Page 42803

1 A. I met these persons in the mountains. I saw them in the

2 mountains, in guest rooms, because my work involved this kind of activity,

3 moving in the villages, in the mountains, and they always moved in the

4 mountains. They were not organised in large groups. They operated in

5 groups of three or four, pursuant to their orders. And later these groups

6 became larger, consisting of around 100 persons.

7 Q. Were they armed? Did they wear uniforms?

8 A. Of course they were armed. But they didn't have uniforms, all of

9 them. Only the main figures, the commanders, had uniforms. In each group

10 you could find only one or two wearing a uniform while the rest were in

11 civilian clothes, but of course they were armed.

12 Q. And what was their activity in that year of 1998 that you know of

13 directly?

14 A. Their activity began in 1995, and their goal was to kill

15 policemen, to kill persons who refused to abandon their works, persons who

16 do not carry out their orders. This is their task, to kill, to kill

17 innocent people and to realise their goal, as is the case now.

18 Q. You said just now that they killed people who refused to stop

19 working. Can you tell us what this was all about?

20 A. There are many examples of this kind, but I will mention the

21 example of Elmi Mahmuti, a friend of mine. He had this problem, and

22 because of this his brother was killed. He killed his brother, and the

23 court sentenced him in 1992. The court was in their hands. In Kosova at

24 that time, 90 per cent of the population were Albanians. 90 per cent were

25 working as clerks right until 1992. And they received the orders for

Page 42804

1 killing policemen from Adem Abazi and his men. Their aim was to kill

2 policemen and to begin a conflict.

3 Q. Please explain in a bit more detail what you said, that they

4 killed those people who refused to stop working. Who was it that gave

5 these orders to people to stop working?

6 A. Our leaders. The leaders gave these orders. One of the main

7 leaders was Shaqir Shabani. I don't remember the exact year, but in 1969,

8 I think, he was in Albania. Today he lives in France. He is a supporter

9 of Muhamed Zogu and Shaqir Berisha. Correction, Ahmet Zogu and Sali

10 Berisha. He is my uncle, Shaqir Berisha [as interpreted].

11 Q. Tell me, Mr. Fazliu, who was it that Shaqir Shabani ordered to

12 stop working?

13 A. Shaqir Shabani ordered his friends, his deputies. It is well

14 known that they worked as in one army, regular army, but they operated

15 illegally, and they had their own leaders. For example, Hajdin Abazi,

16 Sadik Bala, my brother Ekrem Fazliu, and others.

17 Q. Did you have an opportunity to file a criminal complaint against

18 any one of these people who were doing illegal things? I don't mean only

19 as a forest-keeper in relation to your very own line of work, forestry,

20 but were you in a position to file criminal complaints against these

21 people, to press criminal charges?

22 A. Yes. We Albanians are Muslims, and it is our tradition that

23 everything which is against the law shall be reported. Everyone that is

24 working against the law should be reported. For this reason, for many

25 cases that I had knowledge of, cases of persons who were in possession of

Page 42805

1 automatic rifles or hand grenades or uniforms, I reported these men and

2 they were sentenced.

3 Q. Did you have cases when you reported some Serbs for criminal

4 offences?

5 A. Yes, of course. According to our tradition, we do not report only

6 Albanians but also Serbs and others. Whatever is prohibited according to

7 the law, we report it, things that are against the interests of people.

8 There are cases when I reported Serbs as well.

9 Q. All right. These criminal offences that you referred to and that

10 you reported concerning which you filed criminal complaints, do they only

11 have to do with the possession of weapons and uniforms or also some crimes

12 that were committed, very specific crimes?

13 A. I saw only those who were in possession of weapons, and they were

14 sentenced. Their weapons were seized. But also cases when people got

15 killed but the security was dealing in those issues. I had nothing to do

16 with these cases. My work was to report everything that was against the

17 law.

18 Q. All right. At that time in 1998, did you know where KLA bases

19 were?

20 A. Yes. In Kotlina village, Kacanik municipality, in Jezerce

21 village, and in the village of Recak, in Belince just above Recak. It is

22 kind of connected to Recak, this Belince. This is in my municipality.

23 And in the direction of Gnjilane as well, but there was only a small

24 number of them.

25 Q. All right. There in your municipality, in those villages that you

Page 42806

1 mentioned, a few of them, what was the approximate number of KLA members?

2 A. Up to 100 members in 1998. Until 1999, they operated in smaller

3 groups; 15 members, 30 members. They were getting trained, they were

4 building trenches. This is what I've seen with my own eyes. And in late

5 1999, their number grew.

6 Q. Did you say in late 1998 or 1999 in Serbia?

7 A. 1998.

8 Q. Thank you. Let us move on to very specific matters. What can you

9 say about the situation in Urosevac after the first NATO attacks, after

10 the first NATO attacks starting with the 24th of April? I stand

11 corrected, the 24th of March, 1999.

12 A. Before the bombing started, a small number of people left Kosova.

13 I'm speaking of my own municipality, Stimlje, Gnjilane, Viti, and the

14 villages in this area. I would say 5 per cent of the population left.

15 However, when the bombing started, out of fear people start to leave in

16 greater numbers. It wasn't difficult only for human beings. It was

17 difficult for animals as well, for everyone who lived in Kosova at that

18 time.

19 I had relatives who worked abroad in Germany and Switzerland who

20 invited me and my family to go there and leave. They invited me even 15

21 days before the bombing started. They had set up the camps in Albania and

22 Macedonia six months earlier, because I was told personally that if we

23 didn't leave, we would have been killed, all of us, because of the

24 bombing, and that's what happened. Many people were injured because of

25 the NATO bombing, traumatised. Only the youth up to the age of 18

Page 42807

1 suffered traumas and are not able to continue their lives normally.

2 So after the bombing started, people began to leave Kosova in

3 greater numbers.

4 Q. Mr. Fazliu, please tell us very precisely and as briefly as

5 possible, what were the reasons why people started leaving Kosovo in great

6 numbers, according to all you know and your entire experience?

7 A. As I mentioned earlier, my brother, during the bombing, was with

8 me with his entire family. Their aim was to make the world see that the

9 people were leaving because of the harm that the Serbians were causing,

10 but it was the contrary. They were leaving because of NATO. Only a small

11 number of criminals who were sentenced for weapons, drugs, and so on left

12 because of Serbia, people who left for their own profits. But when the

13 bombing started, people were really stressed.

14 Q. Tell us one more thing: From what you know, what was the attitude

15 of KLA leaders regarding whether people should or shouldn't leave Kosovo?

16 A. The KLA order was as it follows: Those who do not follow KLA

17 orders will be killed. And this happened. In reality, those persons who

18 did not follow KLA orders -- I will mention here the case of a friend of

19 mine who was taken by the KLA and kept for nine days - however, he was

20 fortunate enough to escape and survive - he himself proved this.

21 We have brought this case before the court in Kosova after the

22 war. Twenty-six persons from Kacanik municipality were -- who were taken

23 during the night and killed, all of them Albanians. Five of them were

24 sentenced in Pristina about four or five months ago. I was in Pristina

25 twice and gave a statement, just like I came here to tell the truth. I

Page 42808

1 was a witness there as well, and I stated the truth.

2 Q. All right. Let us come back to this issue. You said the KLA

3 would kill those who disobeyed orders. What were the orders of the KLA

4 addressed to the population at the time?

5 A. The order was to leave Kosova in later stages, to go to Albania,

6 Macedonia, so that the world could see for themselves that the Albanians

7 are leaving because of the harm caused by the Serbs. This was the aim.

8 This was the KLA order.

9 Q. Now, tell me, in what way was this KLA order issued? Did KLA

10 leaders or maybe their followers go from house to house to tell people

11 what the orders were or was it done in some other way? How was this order

12 communicated to Albanians in Kosovo?

13 A. Every street, every village had a council of its own. They had

14 their own people in these councils, and it also happened that they went to

15 guest rooms and communicated their orders during gatherings. This

16 happened in 1997, 1998. They operated in 1996 as well but in smaller

17 groups, up to three persons, just to convince the people, because we had

18 connections, we had friendship with the Serbs; there was nothing bad

19 between us.

20 To this age of 46, I never had any harm caused by a Serb or by

21 Albanian or by a Turk. There were even Romas. But from them I suffered

22 harm.

23 I will mention an example here. I came here voluntarily to tell

24 the truth, and three days after that my daughter was taken. She is nearly

25 17 years old. The KLA network is functioning to this date. The main

Page 42809

1 figures, those who became generals, are those who killed people. I will

2 not mention the younger ones or smaller in rank.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... she was 17

4 when she was taken or is she 17 now?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] She was born in 1989. She is to be

6 17 soon. I wanted to come to this court here from Kosova straight. And a

7 witness to this is a Greek and an Italian from KFOR, but they didn't write

8 this down. They asked me, "What do you want to say there?" And I said to

9 them, "I want to say the truth." I didn't come here to defend anyone. I

10 just came here to tell the truth, how things happened.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I arrived in The Hague a month

13 ago --

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, direct questions to the witness.

15 JUDGE KWON: In the meantime, Mr. Fazliu -- just a second.

16 Mr. Fazliu, I don't remember whether I heard from you where you

17 lived in the municipality of Urosevac. What village was that?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the village of Softovic.

19 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. Fazliu, when you decided to come here to testify, as you

22 mentioned a moment ago, your daughter was abducted three days later. Is

23 that what you just said?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. When was your daughter abducted?

Page 42810












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 42811

1 A. Five months ago.

2 Q. Tell me, how did they find out about your decision to come here to

3 testify? Do you know that?

4 A. Yes. I am sure about 99 per cent. I told my family that I was

5 going to ask to be taken to The Hague to tell the truth. My brother was

6 there, his wife, whose two brothers were members of the KLA, and I think

7 it was because of this wife of my brother that this happened, that they

8 learned about my intent to come to The Hague.

9 Q. And then in retaliation they kidnapped your daughter.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So do you have any knowledge about the whereabouts, the fate of

12 your daughter?

13 A. When I was here, then I heard that my daughter had called my --

14 her mother, that is my wife, that she is alive, but nothing else as to

15 where she is, only that she's alive.

16 Q. All right. Thank you, Mr. Fazliu. Let us --

17 JUDGE BONOMY: If that's the end of that matter, may I ask what

18 action is being taken about this?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean about my daughter, sir?


21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because I asked Belgrade to enable

22 me to come here to The Hague, this is the reason why my daughter was

23 kidnapped. If I know who has taken her, I have warned, and my family, my

24 wife, has already informed the police and also published an announcement

25 in the newspaper that if I know where my daughter is now and who is the

Page 42812

1 person who has kidnapped her, I would have done short work of that person

2 and would not have asked for any other assistance, because my life is

3 worthless now. If you have children yourself, you understand me.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Which police have been informed?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The police that is now there.


7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Kosova, in Ferizaj.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm anxious to know where this was reported, which

9 police office, and to whom it was reported.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My wife and my son, because it's not

11 easy for me to go there. I don't go there openly to my home. I'm afraid

12 of the criminals of the KLA.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Where was it reported?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Ferizaj.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: All right. Thank you.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Robinson.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Mr. Fazliu, let us go back to that specific issue we were

20 discussing. You said KLA leaders had ordered Albanians through that

21 entire network of their sympathisers and representatives to leave Kosovo.

22 Do you know who it was specifically in your area who ordered Albanians to

23 leave?

24 A. Yes, I do. There was Muhamed Ademi, who used to work as a

25 teacher; Sadik Bala, and many others. If you want me, I can give

Page 42813

1 their names as well.

2 Q. What were the orders?

3 A. They gave the order to leave Kosova for the world to see what was

4 happening, but nothing happened before NATO bombing. The KLA members

5 removed their own families two, three years ago from Kosova. As to the

6 people in general, I'm talking about 90 per cent of the people, they

7 didn't leave Kosova until the NATO bombing started, despite the order

8 given, because they thought this was not the right order.

9 Q. What can you tell us about the conduct of the army and the police

10 in Kosovo? What can you tell us about any problems between the army and

11 the police on one hand and the population, the civilian population, in

12 Kosovo?

13 A. I don't know what to say. I can only say that they have -- the

14 army has protected us. They have even handed out chocolates to the kids.

15 I don't know how best to describe it. I don't know any harm, any trouble

16 to have been caused to us by the army. The army has behaved like any army

17 all over the world. I'm speaking about -- not only about my own village

18 but also about other municipalities; Ferizaj, Gnjilane, Pristina.

19 Normally the army was there to help us.

20 Q. Now, be so kind as to tell me something about this paragraph of

21 the indictment, 63(j). It says that: "In the period from the 24th of

22 March until the 14th of April, forces of FRY and Serbia shelled and

23 attacked villages in the Urosevac/Ferizaj municipality, including the

24 following villages: Biba, Muhadzer Prelez, Raka and Staro Selo, killing a

25 number of residents. After the shelling, forces of the FRY and Serbia

Page 42814

1 entered some of the villages, including Papaz and Sojevo, and ordered the

2 residents to leave."

3 Do you know anything about this?

4 A. Yes, I do. Only in Prelez village the army has told, in a very

5 polite manner, the people to leave there and go to Ferizaj because of the

6 bombing, where they were sheltered around Softovic village, in order to

7 protect the people. The army has done nothing wrong. I have not seen

8 anything wrong coming from the army, because I have been in Prelez, Miras

9 villages, Fusma [phoen] village. I have gone there to -- to take people

10 with my car and bring them to Ferizaj to make them feel more secure there.

11 So when I was driving my car, I have seen the army and I haven't seen

12 anything wrong.

13 Q. But do you know or have you heard about the army ordering people

14 to leave Kosovo?

15 A. No, no. I don't know of any such case of ordering the people to

16 leave. On the contrary, they have given the people food. There have been

17 also film footage and recordings of what happened.

18 I went myself to these villages that I mentioned. The orders were

19 -- the only orders given were those by the KLA. As to the army, the only

20 order that the army gave us was to stay where we were, and that it told us

21 not to be afraid and that the army was there to protect us, and this is

22 what in fact happened.

23 Q. You are saying now that the only order to leave Kosovo was from

24 the KLA. Is that what you said?

25 A. Yes. This is true. Only the KLA gave the orders. Even today the

Page 42815

1 order is to purchase the properties of the Serbs, the Turks, the Romas, in

2 order to be clear of them. You can see them -- these everywhere, even in

3 the newspapers. This is not only happening only in Kosova. The purpose

4 is to have it happen also in Macedonia, in Montenegro. This has been the

5 aim since 1985. This is not a recent goal. They have been working for

6 that since -- even my brother has done so since 1997.

7 Hajdin Abazi, Sadik Bali, Xhabir Morina [phoen], all these persons

8 have, and many, many others like them, have been working for this goal. I

9 know them because they have been -- some of them have been my classmates.

10 We have played together. We have stayed together. They came even to me,

11 to talk to me, to convince me as well. How could I train my gun against

12 my neighbour, my brother, when my religion tells me that the first

13 neighbour is your brother and that you shouldn't look at the colour of the

14 face of your neighbour? For this reason, we prevented many things, bad

15 things from happening, and now 80 per cent of -- they have kidnapped my

16 daughter to prevent others like me from coming here and telling the truth.

17 I'm sure that they will go even and get my own sons. I'm certain of

18 that. But nevertheless, I want to come here and tell the truth because

19 God will help me. I don't want the Court or anyone to help me. Only God

20 will. I want to tell the truth because I know that the Tribunal is

21 looking for the truth, and the truth is this, what I'm saying.

22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Fazliu. Just a few more questions because you have

23 explained this thoroughly and precisely. We have already heard some

24 witnesses from Urosevac, Mr. Krasniqi from Mirosavlje, Urosevac

25 municipality, who stated on the 4th of April, 1999 he had seen military

Page 42816

1 vehicles stationed near Softovic village, and they were shelling towards

2 Rakovica and Zlatare, killing four people in Zlatare and wounding five.

3 He also stated that Serbian forces shot at people in Pojatiste, whereas on

4 the 7th of April, 1999, he saw houses burning in Sojevo and Kamena Glava

5 and heard later that seven people had been killed. So it is supposed to

6 have happened near Softovic village, your village. Do you know anything

7 about the events that this witness testified about?

8 A. Qerim Krasniqi is a member of the KLA. He has testified here for

9 his own profit. It is common knowledge what their personal interests

10 are. There has never been any shelling by the army in our village; only

11 by the NATO. There have been 12 or 13 houses which were shot -- which

12 were shelled by the KLA. Those people who have worked, for example, in

13 SUP. There are living arguments to prove this. Avdi Musa, 35 years old,

14 he has worked in SUP. On the 20 -- on the 12th, when the troops entered

15 Kosova, he was killed only because he has -- he has defended the people,

16 and he has attacked the thieves and the criminals. Qerim Krasniqi is a

17 member of the KLA. Someone by the name of Bajram Plaku [phoen], 70 years

18 old, was a man I knew, and he said that I'm not of an age to go to the

19 army -- to the KLA, and I will stay here and die here, and he was killed.

20 But there was no one else who was killed in Ferizaj municipality.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Could you clarify one statement there, that you say

22 the KLA were shelling. Did you mean to say that?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They have put mines in those 12, 13

24 houses in the Ferizaj municipality. They have thought that the owners of

25 these 12, 13 houses served Serbia, and these houses were blown up by the

Page 42817

1 KLA with mines. With dynamite, with explosion. I don't know what to say.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: And the -- sorry, there was one other comment you

3 made. You talked about the 12th when the troops entered Kosovo. What did

4 you mean by that?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to say that just because

6 someone - Avdi Musa - worked for the state security, the KLA killed him.

7 They killed him 100 metres away from my house.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: I followed that, but what did you mean by the

9 expression when -- sorry. I follow what you are saying, but what do you

10 mean by the expression "when the troops entered Kosovo"?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The NATO forces. When I say

12 "forces," I mean the NATO forces.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you saying that they entered Kosovo on the 12th

14 of some month?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the 12th of June, 1999.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. You mentioned this elderly man who was killed only because he

19 didn't want to leave his house. He didn't want to leave Kosovo.

20 A. He had left his home in Pojatiste village. He had gone to his

21 son-in-law, to his daughter's home, and I heard from his daughter that my

22 father wanted to die a hero, and he attacked the police. That was the

23 only case.

24 Q. Very well. Tell me, now, did you have any personal losses among

25 your family members? Your daughter was abducted. I hope that is not a

Page 42818

1 loss. She was kidnapped. But have you had any other casualties in your

2 family?

3 A. The brother of my wife was killed by the KLA after two months.

4 One of the perpetrators was sentenced to 10 years of gaol by UNMIK. The

5 only reason for that was that he had his kid there and they went and

6 killed him. And a nephew [as interpreted] of mine in Zega village, 90

7 years old, he said, "I won't leave my home," he was also killed. The KLA

8 killed him. They blamed the Serbs for that.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There's no interpretation into

10 Serbian.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is there a technical problem?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Probably, because I'm hearing you in

13 interpretation, but the witness's reply has not been interpreted into

14 Serbian. I'm reading from the transcript. "The brother of my wife was

15 killed by the KLA after two months. One of the perpetrators was sentenced

16 to 10 years of gaol by UNMIK. The only reason for that was that he had

17 his kid -" and then something empty - "there and they went and killed

18 him. And a nephew of mine in Zega village -" again empty - "years old, he

19 said, 'I won't leave my home,' he was also killed. The KLA killed him.

20 They blamed the Serbs for that."

21 That has not been interpreted at all, this entire passage. It's

22 missing from the Serb interpretation, so that --

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: I ask the Court deputy to check into the matter.

24 Well, let us continue now and see whether we have the interpretation.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Robinson.

Page 42819












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 42820

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Mr. Fazliu, a witness who testified here, his name is Bajram

3 Bucaliu from Staro Selo, Urosevac municipality - that's your municipality

4 - said that on the 2nd of April the Serb army surrounded Staro Selo, on

5 the 3rd April the soldiers searched houses, then they torched houses, and

6 on the 13th of April three villagers were killed, after which the

7 villagers began to leave Urosevac. What can you say about these

8 allegations, what this witness described? Did it really happen?

9 A. Bajram -- I know Bajram Bucaliu very well, and we are -- we have

10 friendship, or we are in-laws because the daughter of my cousin is married

11 to a cousin of his. Bajram Bucaliu has always stayed in the -- socialised

12 with the Serbs and the Serbs gave him -- found him a job at the train

13 station, but he is a man with double standards. He is -- he comes from a

14 family that deals in drugs. The -- his in-law, Bajram Bucaliu, has killed

15 someone in 1992 for 36 kilogramme of drugs. He has killed someone in

16 uniform, a traffic policeman, Enver Sola [phoen] is the name, and he has

17 spent his time mostly in Bulgaria and Turkey. And three months ago he was

18 burned.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Microphone not activated].

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not making accusations, sir.

21 This is the truth. If something is not true, I can say so myself.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: But am I correct in thinking you're referring to a

23 relative of his?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] His -- yes, a relative of his.

25 Someone from his family that deal with Bajram Bucaliu and Islamija. I

Page 42821

1 know Bajram very well. I know also his father Islam. I know his brothers

2 because we have married among ourselves.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: What is your basis for saying he is a man with

4 double standards?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because he was with the Serbs until

6 the bombing started, and when NATO troops came, now he came here as a

7 witness and lied here. This is what I base my --

8 JUDGE BONOMY: What's the relevance of the fact that one of his

9 in-laws is a drug dealer? How does that bear on whether he is a man of

10 double standards or not?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He is a man with double standards

12 because until the time of the bombing by NATO he worked with the Serbs.

13 Now he came here to testify against the Serbs.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: What was -- what was the point in telling us about

15 his in-law who was a drug dealer? I'm trying to understand the relevance

16 of that. Try to answer that question.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I told this because I was asked what

18 kind of person he is, whether I know Bajram Bucaliu, and I know him very

19 well, and he himself deals with drugs.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: You see, if he's a drug dealer, why didn't you tell

21 us that before? Why did you concentrate on his relative's drug dealing?

22 I don't understand the relevance of that.

23 He has now also said the witness is a drug dealer.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, may I -- may I say something?


Page 42822

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, Judges, I wanted to explain to

2 you his descent, what family he comes from, because it's important. The

3 chip resembles -- the chip off the old block, we say. Bajram is a

4 tradesman, a criminal who didn't know who entered and left his home, and

5 he has double standards and he has given false statements. And he is

6 telling that I am a criminal and my family is criminals. This is why I'm

7 saying that he is a double-standard man.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, continue.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Mr. Fazliu, what happened to your house in Urosevac? Was it

11 destroyed, was it looted, or is it still intact?

12 A. First it was raided and then it was destroyed. Both my house and

13 the houses of the Serbs, and the houses of many, many others who did not

14 subscribe to KLA.

15 JUDGE KWON: You mean your house in Softovic?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I mean the house in Ferizaj,

17 because I lived in Softovic, but in 1991, when I wounded that person, I

18 left -- moved to Ferizaj. From 1992, I've been living in Ferizaj.

19 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. When was your house looted and torched, yours and the houses of

22 all the other people you mentioned?

23 A. On the 12th. On the 13th and the 14th I left Kosova, of June

24 1999.

25 Q. When they came under the auspices of the United Nations protection

Page 42823

1 mission, that's when they set fire to your house?

2 A. Yes. Until then, no house was torched, only those that were

3 destroyed by NATO bombing. I don't know what the purpose was for that. I

4 can't say. But the whole village in Babaj, from Relaz [phoen], Prelez,

5 Ulrika [phoen] in Viti municipality, they were destroyed by NATO. When

6 the NATO troops entered, then the houses of the Serbs and the -- of the

7 Albanians that did not obey the orders - of the KLA, that is - were

8 burned.

9 Q. In the area where you lived, were Shaqir Shabani and Shukri Buja

10 active?

11 A. Active was Shukri Buja while Shaqir Shabani was outside. He deals

12 with Sali Berisha in Albania, Avdul Bardi [phoen], and so on and so forth,

13 they only conveyed the orders while Shukri Buja was the commander in

14 Nerodimlje. Nerodimlje, which is linked with Jezerc.

15 Q. Do you know who Hajdin Abazi is?

16 A. As I said earlier, Hajdin Abazi is a friend of mine. We went to

17 school together. He was called Lum Haxhiu, while his real name is Hajdin

18 Abazi. His nom de guerre was Lum Haxhiu. You could see him on the

19 newspapers and on TV with Holbrooke, in the company of Holbrooke.

20 Q. That's the person who can be seen with Holbrooke. And where is he

21 now?

22 A. In this moment he is in Belgium. He has two children, a daughter

23 and a son, and his wife. They live in Belgium.

24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Fazliu. Tell us, did you have any other problems

25 with members of the KLA after the war? You have already told us they

Page 42824

1 abducted your daughter, but can you describe any other problems you may

2 have had.

3 A. Yes. In the beginning, I left with my whole family, and later on

4 my children returned from Skopje to the house of my in-law with the last

5 name Mehmeti, who got killed. Faruk Fazliu, my elderly brother, was taken

6 by the KLA, and he was kept by them for six hours. Amongst those who took

7 him was Ramush Bajralija [phoen]. He was a policeman, a former policeman,

8 and he asked him, "Where is your father," referring to me. So they kept

9 him for six hours, interrogated him and cursed his family.

10 So when I heard that my son was taken, because with my wife I

11 always maintained contact through mobile phone, when I heard this I went

12 in the evening, at night-time, illegally, and I went straight to his

13 family house to see him privately. I said to him, "I am alive. You can

14 go on and kill my son, but I want you to know that I am alive." And I

15 returned, left again, and from that time I didn't have any problems until

16 the time now when this with my daughter happened.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did you say earlier that it was the KLA who

18 kidnapped your daughter or did you just say that your daughter was

19 kidnapped?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for my daughter, I can't say who

21 because I don't know who kidnapped her. There are different groups

22 operating.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you misdescribed the evidence in

24 the last question.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: What is the name of your son who was kidnapped, or

Page 42825

1 who was held for six hours?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Faruk Fazliu.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: He is wrongly described in the transcript as your

4 elderly brother.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, he is my older son.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Mr. Fazliu, you said that you testified before the UNMIK police in

8 Pristina in connection with large-scale abduction in Kacanik. When did

9 this abduction take place? You mentioned there were 26 people who were

10 abducted. Was this during the bombing?

11 MR. SAXON: Objection, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Saxon.

13 MR. SAXON: I would simply like to point out to the Chamber that

14 the Rule 65 ter summary provided to the Prosecution for this witness says

15 the following: "Albanian; cooperated with the police in Urosevac; will

16 testify about his cooperation, his knowledge of the events in that area,

17 and the relations with the Serbs."

18 Now the accused is asking him about a completely different

19 municipality, and I would at least ask that the accused be directed to

20 stay within the limits of his 65 ter summary. Thank you.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, why are you raising this question?

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I'm raising it firstly

24 because it fully fits into what Mr. Saxon quoted awhile ago. The witness

25 is testifying to matters within his personal knowledge.

Page 42826

1 Secondly, this falls within the context of the expulsion of people

2 which this witness testified about. Twenty-six Albanians were abducted

3 during the bombing. One managed to escape. There was a trial in Kosovo

4 in connection with this. Crimes committed by members of the KLA were

5 ascribed to Serbs. The witness knows of this and of course he should

6 testify about it.

7 I see nothing that Mr. Saxon could object to apart from the fact

8 that he doesn't like this witness testifying to something that runs

9 completely counter to what is mentioned in these accusations against me in

10 the indictment.

11 It says in 65 ter here something about cooperation with the

12 authorities. I asked the witness about it. He reported both Serbs and

13 Albanians who committed crimes, and that was what his cooperation with the

14 authorities consisted in. And he was also a forester, so it was his job

15 to do that.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Saxon, what is the effect of the 65 ter?

18 MR. SAXON: The effect of the 65 ter --

19 JUDGE KWON: Microphone, please.

20 MR. SAXON: The effect of the one-sentence long 65 ter summary,

21 Your Honour, is to provide the Prosecution, or to put -- better said,

22 perhaps, to put the Prosecution on notice of what this witness is going to

23 deal with in his evidence so that the Prosecution can properly prepare to

24 test this witness's evidence during cross-examination, which is all part

25 of the purpose of a --

Page 42827

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Where is that? Where is that set out? 65 ter --

2 MR. SAXON: Well, it's been -- I received it in a confidential

3 witness schedule number 35, Your Honour. I can give you my copy, if you'd

4 like. I can pass it right up to you right now, if you would like, Your

5 Honour.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: No, I'm trying to ascertain the purpose of the 65

7 ter list.

8 Mr. Kay, can you help us?

9 MR. KAY: Ms. Higgins.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Higgins.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

12 MS. HIGGINS: As I understand, Your Honour, there isn't an

13 explanation within the Rules itself. It's from, I presume, jurisprudence

14 but I can't put my finger on it at the moment. It seems, in my

15 submission, that the summaries are really used as indicative of the

16 testimony and are not necessarily exhaustive. Your Honours will be aware

17 that the testimony that this witness is being asked to give relates to

18 Kacanik, which is in fact the municipality just next door to his, Ferizaj,

19 and it's clear that he has personal knowledge of events which Prosecution

20 has been given notice of.

21 MR. SAXON: May I respond, Your Honour? The Prosecution has not

22 been given any notice that this witness has personal knowledge of the

23 events in the Kacanik municipality. How, then, can the Prosecution

24 properly and fully deal with this evidence in cross-examination? And what

25 other reason for this Rule to provide these summaries to the other party

Page 42828












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 42829

1 in advance could there be than to provide sufficient notice so that the

2 other party can fully prepare to test this evidence?

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: But if you are embarrassed, that's another

4 matter.

5 MR. SAXON: I'm not embarrassed. The Prosecution is not

6 embarrassed, Your Honour. We're simply asking -- asking for --

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: I didn't mean embarrassed in a technical sense,

8 meaning that you are taken by surprise, then that could be dealt with in

9 other ways.

10 MR. NICE: Your Honour, can I just add something, because

11 Mr. Saxon hasn't been in court when we've been dealing with this on

12 earlier occasions. You will remember that there's a long history of

13 filings about 65 ter summaries, and right at the beginning, I think, from

14 the jurisprudence you can identify two functions served by the 65 ter

15 summaries; management of the evidence by the Court, and that I think

16 became the principal function judged as relevant by this Chamber although

17 other Chambers have held that the purpose is to give the Prosecution

18 adequate notice to prepare for cross-examination.

19 More recently I think the Court has indeed expressed some concerns

20 about the brevity of the 65 ter summaries, of which we've been complaining

21 for a long period of time, without, in the event, requiring the accused to

22 provide much more detail.

23 However, there did come a time when it amended its practice a few

24 witnesses ago and asked the accused to give an opening statement

25 summarising in rather more detail than was on the 65 ter summary that

Page 42830

1 which the witness was going to give. Nevertheless we've accepted the

2 Chamber's earlier rulings to the effect that these brief 65 ter summaries

3 serve the purpose of Court management and putting the Prosecution on

4 notice, to the extent that the jurisprudence indicates is its function,

5 for cross-examination purposes.

6 I have to say, looking at this particular 65 ter summary and

7 listening to the really quite extreme allegations made against

8 individuals, that the Chamber will have in mind that we're going to be

9 completely incapable of dealing satisfactorily with any of those

10 allegations if they are relevant because we haven't had any notice of them

11 in advance, but that's just one of the problems.

12 But I think that's the history of the 65 ter litigation in bold

13 outline.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Ms. Higgins --

15 JUDGE KWON: Our microphone is out of order.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: I'll need to shout at you then, I'm sorry. If

17 you'll excuse me just for raising my voice. Rule 68 allows the Trial

18 Chamber to decide on -- to decide on sanctions to be imposed on a party

19 which fails to perform its disclosure obligations, and that envisages that

20 more than the Prosecutor has disclosure obligations.

21 What other than 65 ter (G), is it, could be described as the

22 disclosure obligation of the accused?

23 MS. HIGGINS: Your Honours, as I understand it, the extent of the

24 accused's disclosure obligation in relation to the specific, the giving of

25 notice in the summary, it is confined to that alone, and Your Honours have

Page 42831

1 been concerned to not place an over-onerous burden on the accused --

2 JUDGE BONOMY: But all I'm trying to identify is whether there is

3 a power within the Rules for the Trial Chamber to take action if it

4 considers that there's been a failure to comply with a 65 ter obligation.

5 That's a question of interpretation.


7 JUDGE BONOMY: And we certainly haven't taken a strong line on

8 that at any stage so far. But would it be reasonable to construe 68 bis

9 as extending to the obligations in Rule 65 ter?

10 MS. HIGGINS: Your Honour, it may also have the power -- if I may

11 address that in a moment. Your Honour obviously has the power under Rule

12 54 in the orders that the Trial Chamber can make which gives the Trial

13 Chamber a generic power. The interpretation of Rule 68 bis may be open to

14 that. In my understanding, it has not been used in that way prior to

15 today's hearings and prior to these proceedings. There's no jurisprudence

16 that I am aware of that the interpretation that Your Honour has lent or

17 may lend has existed or does exist in the jurisprudence to this extent

18 now.

19 May I just briefly address one further point in response to

20 Mr. Nice. It is clear, and in our submission evident, that the

21 Prosecution has brought an extensive case in relation to the municipality

22 of Kacanik. If it is the case, and it's not entirely clear to me at the

23 moment, but if it is the case that this witness can give evidence on the

24 movement or the reasons why people were leaving Kacanik, or the

25 motivations as to why people left Kacanik, he should be given the

Page 42832

1 opportunity to do so, given the limited amount of time within the case for

2 presentation of evidence. And if it is in fact the case that the

3 Prosecution needs time to prepare that, then that may be something the

4 Trial Chamber may have to address.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: That's what I meant when I spoke of

6 embarrassment.


8 JUDGE KWON: I have one question to Mr. Saxon. The summary of

9 this witness says like this: "Albanian; cooperated with the police in

10 Urosevac; will testify about his cooperation, his knowledge of the events

11 in that area."

12 Given that Kacanik is just located nearby Urosevac, will "that

13 area" not include the area of Kacanik?

14 MR. SAXON: Well, not for the Prosecution, Your Honour. Let me

15 just remind you -- if the accused will let me finish --

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, let Mr. Saxon --

17 JUDGE KWON: I understand that.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Saxon is speaking, Mr. Milosevic.

19 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please.

20 MR. SAXON: Your Honour Judge Kwon, I don't mean to make light of

21 your question, but Pristina is also close to Urosevac. One could argue

22 that Istok is also close to Urosevac, as is Stimlje is close to Urosevac.

23 JUDGE KWON: Just neighbouring municipalities.

24 MR. SAXON: The point is -- the point is that --

25 JUDGE KWON: But, Mr. Saxon, you didn't object when the witness

Page 42833

1 was dealing with KLA bases located in Kacanik.

2 MR. SAXON: No, I did not.

3 JUDGE KWON: During --

4 MR. SAXON: That's because, Your Honour, the witness's testimony

5 about that came in response to a general question from the accused about

6 the location of KLA bases, and I didn't know what the response was going

7 to be. And now I think I'm in a different situation here. We're getting

8 -- the question was formulated regarding events in Kacanik.

9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Saxon, even if you are right that the 65 ter

11 is confining - and I don't necessarily agree with that - wouldn't there be

12 a discretion within the Chamber to allow a question like that?

13 MR. SAXON: Well, Your Honour, of course there is discretion with

14 the Chamber.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, briefly.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would just like to draw your

18 attention to one fact: Kacanik is not close to Urosevac. Kacanik belongs

19 to the area of the SUP of Urosevac, the SUP that the witness cooperated

20 with. Kacanik is covered by the Urosevac SUP. So it fully belongs to

21 that area. You can look that up in the documents and also in the map

22 pertaining to the organisation of the police force.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Well, before we adjourn, I'd think I'd like

24 to decide the matter, not necessarily on that strict geographical point

25 you've just raised, because I think it's a question of principle.

Page 42834

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will allow the question, but we'll break for

3 20 minutes.

4 --- Recess taken at 12.25 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 12.46 p.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. So, Mr. Fazliu, you gave a statement to the UNMIK police in

9 relation to what happened in Kacanik. Tell us: When did this happen,

10 what happened, what did you learn, and who were you in contact with

11 specifically?

12 A. I said even earlier that I worked as a forest-keeper and that my

13 duty was to go to various mountains, houses, villages. And it is known

14 that usually in the mountains the spies and the thieves go to those

15 places, and my duty was to protect the forests. I was very fair in my

16 duty. I tried to perform all my duties. This was why I kept a close

17 watch on the terrain from Strpce, Stimlje, to Ferizaj.

18 Normally it is common knowledge that someone who is dressed in

19 uniform can perform his functions all over the territory of the state, and

20 I have seen in many instances such people, because they trusted me at the

21 beginning. They didn't keep away from me. I have seen the automatic

22 rifles. I didn't report them openly. For example, when a police patrol

23 came by, I warned -- I told them that this and this person is here and

24 here.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Fazliu, just concentrate on the question

Page 42835

1 asked by Mr. Milosevic. When did this happen, and with whom were you in

2 contact?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This happened in 1993, 1994.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: And with whom were you in contact?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With friends, with comrades,

6 co-villagers in the mountains, with KLA people.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, proceed. Yes.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Mr. Fazliu, what do you know about the kidnapping of these 26

10 persons that you made a statement about to UNMIK?

11 A. I mentioned it even earlier. I will do it again. I didn't give

12 to anyone a statement on what I was going to speak here, only the truth

13 that I know.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just answer the question. Concentrate on the

15 question asked. I know you have your story to tell, but just listen to

16 the questions asked by Mr. Milosevic, and just answer them as directly as

17 possible.

18 So that question now was: What do you know about the kidnapping

19 of the 26 persons?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My friend Agim Laniste, who is from

21 Laniste village, Kacanik municipality, a village that is linked with

22 Kacanik, he was kidnapped. He was kept for nine days. When they wanted

23 to send him to Drenica parts through the mountains, he had a clash and,

24 fortunately enough for him, he managed to escape. He came straight to

25 SUP, and SUP informed me about that and asked me if I wanted to meet my

Page 42836

1 friend. So I had to go and see him because I was informed of his case by

2 his brother nine days before he was in SUP. I could see how he was

3 stabbed with different objects, screwdrivers. They had asked him, "Why do

4 you speak with Serbs? Why did you send wood, burning wood, to Serbs?"

5 Because Agim Laniste had no assignments whatsoever.

6 He came then to me because he couldn't go back to his own

7 municipality. This happened before the bombing, a month and a half before

8 the bombings, and he stayed with me and my family in the same room, and

9 then together with him we left for Serbia when the NATO forces entered.

10 He then returned to his home and he stayed there secretly, like in

11 a sort of house arrest. A brother of his who lives abroad in France, he

12 has another brother living in Belgium, told UNMIK that his brother,

13 referring to my friend, is in house arrest and had been previously

14 kidnapped, and if this is a matter to be tried, then bring it before

15 trial. And if it's not going to be tried, then please help him regulate

16 the documentation and get to Belgium.

17 UNMIK then intervened, and they went and fetched Agim. Agim then

18 told where he had been and where he had stayed. He gave a statement to

19 UNMIK authorities. Then they called me and asked me how things happened.

20 I told them how I saw Agim, and Agim then told them about the 26 persons,

21 gave their names and last names because these persons were from his

22 village, they were from the area of Viti, and he knew all of them, so Agim

23 gave a statement, and UNMIK has that statement to this date. Correction:

24 UNMIK is protecting Agim.

25 I then went to Pristina and gave a statement, as I said earlier.

Page 42837












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 42838

1 Five of the perpetrators have been sentenced. They -- two of them were

2 from Nerodimlje. I don't know the exact date, but they were sentenced

3 three or four months ago for kidnapping 26 Albanians from their own homes.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Mr. Milosevic.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Mr. Fazliu, do you know the answer to the following question, why

7 those 26 Albanians were abducted, and when were they abducted?

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: I am sorry to interrupt. There is a technical

9 problem with the Albanian booth, and we'll stop for five minutes. Five

10 minutes.

11 I am advised we can now continue, so Mr. Milosevic, you had asked

12 a question, and Mr. Fazliu --

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: -- answer.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were all kidnapped a month and

16 a half before the bombing, after the KLA took to the mountains in greater

17 numbers.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: And you were also asked if you were able to say

19 why they were abducted.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were abducted because they

21 worked with the Serbs and did not want to separate from the Serbs.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Is anything known about the fate of these people now?

25 A. They have all been killed. Agim has confirmed this as well.

Page 42839

1 Q. Does anyone know who it was that abducted them? Because Agim

2 fled. I assume that he saw who had abducted them. Are the perpetrators

3 of this kidnapping and killing of these 26 Albanians known?

4 A. Of course the authors are known. Five of them, as I said, have

5 been sentenced by UNMIK authorities, and the others fled Kosova and went

6 to Albania.

7 Q. These persons who were tried by the UNMIK authorities, were they

8 members of the KLA and, if so, what unit, what group, and from what

9 village or town did they come?

10 A. They were in Kotlina village. I don't know the number of the

11 brigade they belonged to. I don't know exactly the number of the brigade,

12 but I know that they were in Kotlina. And I'm only saying things that I

13 know 100 per cent. They were from a brigade that operated in Kotlina.

14 Q. All right. Thank you very much, Mr. Fazliu. Just a few more

15 questions.

16 The village of Racak is in your area too. Did you see members of

17 the KLA at any time in the village of Racak?

18 A. Of course I did, because Islam Belince was taken by the Racak army

19 only for having worked in a school, and the forest rangers were stop by in

20 his house and have a rest, and the police kidnapped him just because he

21 welcomed the forest rangers in his house. But his son, who was also

22 kidnapped, was released, and he is a witness to this. He is still alive.

23 I had a friend, Xhim Koshari [phoen], Xhim Idrizi [phoen], and

24 Fadil Idrizi was one of the commanders of the KLA in Racak. He came from

25 abroad, from Switzerland, because he used to work in Switzerland. Ever

Page 42840

1 since 1998, I've known this. He asked for a generator. I asked him, "Why

2 do you need it?" He said, "I need it for my home." And he told me that

3 they were getting ready, getting prepared in the mountains, and I saw with

4 my own eyes that they prepared themselves a year before in Racak village,

5 in Jezerc, and in Kotlina. I know it is true as far as these three places

6 are concerned.

7 JUDGE KWON: Excuse me, Mr. Milosevic. I didn't follow you when

8 you said Racak is in his area. You also meant that Racak is under the

9 jurisdiction of Urosevac police? Is it true, Mr. Fazliu?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Racak is 13 kilometres far from

11 Ferizaj, and the police was under Ferizaj municipality, because Racak and

12 Stimlje have only one kilometre in between, while Belince and Racak half a

13 kilometre. As a forest ranger I know this because I used to walk on foot

14 through these villages.

15 Racak, Stimlje, and Belince, and Suva Reka municipality are

16 connected to Jezerce. We all share a same forest. You can see this on

17 the map as well.

18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Kwon, when he said his area, I

20 actually meant Mr. Fazliu's area as a forester. That's the area where he

21 passed as a forester, because the forests in that area are part of his

22 workplace.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Just one more question about this, Mr. Fazliu. How many members

25 of the -- of the KLA were in Racak? You said that you saw KLA members in

Page 42841

1 Racak, Jezerce, and Kotlina. How many were in Kotlina, how many in Racak,

2 how many in Jezerce? Approximately, at least.

3 A. Approximately the number is above 100. I can't give you the exact

4 figure but there weren't more than that. Around 100, 120, 150. I don't

5 know the exact number, though. But surely they were not under 100.

6 Q. All right. Thank you.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Since I can't see the transcript any

8 longer, that particular part, was this a misinterpretation or something,

9 but, Mr. Robinson, in the transcript it said that the police had kidnapped

10 a man mentioned by Mr. Fazliu.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Is that what you said, Mr. Fazliu, that the police kidnapped

13 someone?

14 A. The KLA. The police does not kidnap people.

15 Q. All right.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you for that correction.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Thank you. Just one more question, Mr. Fazliu. Your wife and

20 children still live in Urosevac. Do you fear for their safety?

21 A. When I decided to come here, and many of my friends would have

22 done the same, but by doing that they would endanger their families and

23 that's why they cannot come here and tell the truth. And to put it

24 shortly, I believe that the same way they're following my movements they

25 could destroy my family as well. But I have made up my mind. I want the

Page 42842

1 Court to know the truth. I didn't come here to defend anyone. Even then

2 when I gave my statement in Kosova, I asked to come here and provide a

3 testimony. Those there were people from KFOR and UNMIK. They weren't

4 from the streets, those people that I asked to allow me to come here, but

5 they asked me what I wanted to say here before this Court, and I told them

6 that I want to tell the truth, and I didn't give any statement prior to

7 this one here.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: You fear for your own safety as well?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course. I know that I am already

10 dead after I finish my testimony. Because one of my friends, Naser

11 Hajziri, was tied to a tractor and killed. Isuf Sakica as well, and many,

12 many others.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. I hope that will not be realised and

14 that is a hyperbolic comment.

15 Mr. Saxon.

16 Cross-examined by Mr. Saxon:

17 Q. You mentioned that after the NATO bombing campaign began on the

18 24th of March, 1999 -- can you hear me, sir?

19 A. [No interpretation].

20 Q. I didn't get a translation. Can you hear me, sir? I'm not

21 getting --

22 A. Now I can hear you.

23 Q. Okay. Thank you. You mentioned that after the NATO bombing

24 campaign began -- now I'm getting Albanian in my headphones. I'll try

25 again.

Page 42843

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Try again.


3 Q. That after the NATO bombing campaign began, people started leaving

4 Kosovo because they were afraid of the bombing. Do you remember that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And that there was -- because of the bombing, there was a lot of

7 stress; right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You and your own family left Kosovo in the middle of June 1999.

10 That's what you testified to; correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So I guess you and your family didn't feel a great deal of fear

13 from that NATO bombing, did you?

14 A. Of course we felt a great deal of fear, but there was nowhere we

15 could go. Those who left, they didn't live in good conditions. They had

16 to live in the mountains. But their aim was to remove people from their

17 homes so that the world could see that. I said to myself it's better that

18 they kill my own child in my house than in the mountains.

19 Q. And on the 14th -- on the 14th of June, 1999, when the Serb forces

20 began to leave Kosovo, you and your family left and went to Macedonia;

21 right?

22 A. No. I went to Serbia first and then I went to Macedonia.

23 Q. So there was a place for you and your family to go if you had been

24 afraid of the NATO bombs; right?

25 A. Yes, I had a place where to go. They invited me to go.

Page 42844

1 Q. And you --

2 A. But I didn't go.

3 Q. And you and your family, your wife and your nearest and dearest,

4 stayed in Kosovo for the next two and a half months while that bombing was

5 going on; right?

6 A. Many members of our family left because I didn't believe that NATO

7 was going to bomb. I thought it was a propaganda. I didn't think that a

8 human being would bomb another human being.

9 Q. Can you answer my question, sir? Sir, can you answer my question?

10 You and your wife and your children remained in Kosovo for two and a half

11 months after the NATO bombing began; right?

12 A. Not only my family but families in Prelez, Miraz [phoen], Rahovic

13 [phoen], in Ferizaj municipality. Not a single member left.

14 Q. You mentioned Bajram Bucaliu, and you made a number of comments

15 and allegations about him, and you mentioned that he worked at the train

16 station in Ferizaj. Do you recall that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you recall about how many people were employed at that train

19 station in Ferizaj? Must have been a station-master, clerks. Do you

20 recall approximately how many people worked there?

21 A. I don't know how many worked there because that wasn't of much

22 interest for me.

23 Q. Well, you see, there's an exhibit that's in evidence in this case

24 - it's Exhibit 63, Your Honours - and it's a log of the train traffic

25 made from -- of the train traffic that went through the Ferizaj railroad

Page 42845

1 station between January and June 1999. And if one looks at this log, you

2 can see different handwritings, handwritings of different persons on it.

3 And I'm just wondering whether you have any comments to make about the

4 character or characters of the other persons who worked at the Ferizaj

5 train station and who might have made entries into this logbook.

6 A. I don't understand your question very well. In relation to what

7 is your question? What about the train, because the train always moved in

8 the same time, had the same itinerary. So I don't know what kind of

9 answer you want me to give you.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you asking him, Mr. Saxon, why he has singled

11 out Bajram --

12 MR. SAXON: No, Your Honour. That's not what I'm asking. There

13 may have been a problem in the translation. I'll try to rephrase my

14 question.

15 Q. My question is this: Apart from Bajram Bucaliu, do you want to

16 make any allegations about the characters or the personalities of the

17 other persons who worked at the Ferizaj train station? Were they all

18 criminals? Were they all drug dealers? Were they all persons of double

19 standards? If you know. If you don't know, that's fine, you can just say

20 so.

21 A. As for Bajram Bucaliu, I know that he is like that because he is

22 an in-law of mine. And as for others, there are no relatives of mine, and

23 I don't know anything about them because those that I knew, my colleagues,

24 those who were Albanians, they abandoned their jobs in 1991, and the rest

25 were Serbs. I didn't see people here with double standards who gave

Page 42846












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 42847

1 statements.

2 For 15 days my family --

3 Q. I think you've answered the question. I think you've answered the

4 question.

5 A. I can give you a longer answer to this question.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Fazliu -- Mr. Fazliu, that's enough.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just two more words, Your Honours.

8 I don't have things in writing. I have them here in my head. I want to

9 tell the truth, and I don't want to be interrupted if possible.

10 For 15 days, my brother, my own children were waiting for a train,

11 to get on a train.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Fazliu, counsel can interrupt you. If he is

13 doing so unfairly, then I will intervene.

14 Proceed, Mr. Saxon.

15 Let Mr. Saxon ask the next question now. It's a question and

16 answer system that we have here.


18 Q. You told us -- sir, you told us a little while ago when I first

19 asked you about how many people worked at the train station, you said you

20 weren't interested in that. Why is it, then, that in response to a

21 subsequent question you told the Chamber that the trains always ran at the

22 same times and had the same itinerary? You see the inconsistency

23 [Realtime transcript read in error "I consistency"] there?

24 A. No, there is a consistency, but I guess you do not understand me

25 correctly, because I stand by the words that I utter always.

Page 42848

1 My in-law, he was the only one who did not abandon his job. The

2 others, Albanians, abandoned their jobs, and that's why I wasn't

3 interested in others. They were all Serbs, and here we are talking about

4 my in-law. Mr. Milosevic asked me if I knew Bajram Bucaliu. If he asked

5 me about another person, I would have answered.

6 Q. [Previous translation continues]... cut you off. We've heard your

7 answer. Just a comment in the transcript. At the end of my question in

8 the transcript it says: "You see the I consistency there." That should

9 be: "You see the inconsistency there," just to keep the record straight.

10 Sir, I'm going to move on to a different topic now. You mentioned

11 that in Kosovo, before you left Kosovo, your work was to report everything

12 that was against the law. That was your testimony; right? And that's the

13 truth; right?

14 A. Yes, that's the truth.

15 Q. And just to be clear, when you say to report, you were reporting

16 this information to the Serb police; right?

17 A. The police was joined in the beginning at that time, and it

18 consisted of both Serbs and Albanians. It wasn't purely Serb because it

19 wasn't written on their foreheads who was Serb and who was Albanian.

20 Whoever I came across, these police patrols, I told them. I reported the

21 cases.

22 Q. Fine. So you reported this information to the police; right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you were paid for this information; correct?

25 A. No. I had a salary as a forest ranger from Serbia sume.

Page 42849

1 Q. You had a salary as a forest ranger, and out of the goodness of

2 your heart and due to the upstanding values that you maintain, you decided

3 that it would be your duty to report things to the police. Is that your

4 testimony?

5 A. I said in the beginning it's our tradition --

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic has a point. Let's hear him.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think the question is unfair,

8 because the witness explained that he was a forester, a forest ranger. As

9 a forest ranger, of course that he is duty-bound to report various

10 unlawful actions to the police. What does that --

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, there is no unfairness in the

12 question.

13 MR. SAXON: If I can simply note for the record that I think any

14 response to my question has just been ruined by the intervention of the

15 accused, not for the first time.

16 Q. Well, were you -- who did you report to, sir? Who did you report

17 this information to?

18 A. As I said earlier, to the closest patrol. If I was in Kacanik,

19 that would be the patrol in Kacanik. If the case occurred in Stimlje,

20 then in Stimlje, because I didn't have a designated person to go and work

21 -- I didn't have a designated person to whom to report, because even it's

22 in our Islamic tradition that you should guard your family from evil, from

23 drugs, from anything else that can harm you. And this was not only for

24 the -- my own good or the good of my own family; it was for the good of

25 the entire nation. And my purpose was to defend the people, because the

Page 42850

1 criminals were a minority. They are only 5 per cent. Not all in Kosovo

2 are criminals. Only the 95 remaining percentage of the population are

3 still being harmed by the criminals.

4 Q. You say it is in your Islamic tradition that you should guard your

5 family from evil and from other things that can harm you. So if you were

6 in the town of Urosevac and you became aware of some unlawful activity,

7 you would go report it to someone at the Urosevac SUP; correct?

8 A. Of course.

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. Even now, as soon as I leave this Court, if I see something wrong,

11 I will report it to the police. Despite the fact that I am here in The

12 Hague, if I see someone with a weapon or with drugs, I will use the first

13 opportunity to report this to the police.

14 Q. That's gratifying, sir. What would have happened if you chose not

15 to report such information to the police?

16 A. I couldn't have become a criminal. I was not the only person who

17 reported these cases. And as I said earlier, not all are criminals. They

18 are only 5 per cent. They came from Albania.

19 Q. Mr. Fazliu, I'm sorry. Maybe my question wasn't clear. Perhaps

20 this was my fault. Let me try to rephrase my question.

21 My question was: Over time there was an expectation with the

22 police of Urosevac that you would report allegations of criminal conduct

23 to the police; correct?

24 A. No. The police did not force me to do that.

25 Q. Well, what would have happened if you had not reported allegations

Page 42851

1 of criminal conduct?

2 A. Someone else would report them.

3 Q. What if you were the only person who knew about the criminal

4 conduct?

5 A. I really don't understand your question. What do you mean "if you

6 were the only person"? I wasn't the only Muslim person in Kosova. 80 per

7 cent of Kosova are Albanians.

8 Q. And the point is, isn't it, sir, that you were expected, you had

9 an obligation to report information about the activities of alleged KLA

10 members to the police; right?

11 A. I've reported that I have -- when I saw the two or three people

12 wearing guns, or -- or wearing uniforms with a KLA insignia, and I knew

13 that they're not bringing something good, and this is a family tradition

14 from my great grandfather that's -- before they were call Balists, and

15 it's like a group go up to the mountain, take women, kidnap them, or -- so

16 I don't know how to explain it in a different way.

17 Of course it is a duty to report it, to report those persons.

18 Q. Mr. Fazliu, there is a family tradition going back to your great

19 grandfather to obey the law and to report what appeared to be violations

20 of the law. That's your testimony; right? Right?

21 A. Yes, of course. There were violations of the law. Those people

22 who deal with drugs and weapons, of course.

23 Q. Do you recall when you told us about this incident back in 1991

24 when you were in illegal possession of a weapon and you were attacked by

25 three men and you wounded one of them. Do you remember you told us that

Page 42852

1 story?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. How do you explain the fact that, with all of your moral fibre

4 about obeying the law and reporting infractions of the law and the

5 importance of carrying on with your great grandfather's tradition, you

6 yourself were breaking the law by having an illegal weapon? Can you

7 explain that inconsistency?

8 A. Yes. I was keeping a weapon just to defend myself. And the law

9 itself, it is said in the law that you can keep a weapon to defend

10 yourself. And also, the Muslim religion says that you have to protect, to

11 defend yourself with whatever means. So my -- my -- I was keeping a

12 weapon. I had a permit to keep the weapon.

13 Q. Well, you see, sir -- you see, sir, but I'm sorry, that wasn't

14 your testimony about an hour or an hour and a half ago. You said, "At the

15 time I was in the illegal possession of a weapon." That's what -- that's

16 what --

17 A. Yes, it was illegal.

18 Q. Yes. That's what you told the Trial Chamber. So -- let me finish

19 my question, sir. It's my job to ask you questions today.

20 So my question is: How is it that when you felt it was in your

21 interests to do something illegal you did so, and yet you felt this great

22 duty and obligation to report the alleged infractions of others? Can you

23 explain that?

24 A. Yes, I can. We were not allowed to keep pistols. We had rifle

25 weapons, yes. I was keeping this weapon illegally, and I told it to the

Page 42853

1 Court. So the pistol I was in possession of was an illegal one. And even

2 I had -- I was in possession of it even later on.

3 Q. Sir, that's not the question I asked.

4 A. Being a forest ranger, I was allowed to keep a weapon, and even

5 this is also stipulated by law. That is the reason for doing so. Nobody

6 gave me any praise for keeping such weapon illegally. I was sentenced for

7 that. I told you.

8 Q. Sir, did you ever enter the Urosevac police station to give

9 information to the officers there during all this time during the 1990s

10 when you were doing your duty?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you know whether persons questioned or detained at the Urosevac

13 police station were ever tortured? Do you know?

14 A. No, they were not tortured. Because I've reported it, and I can

15 even say it even now. I just saw it, and there was no maltreatment there,

16 because this was an issue that was taken care by the court.

17 Q. I see. I'd like to show you a photograph or two, sir.

18 If these could be placed on the ELMO. Start with this one.

19 Take a look at this photograph, sir, please.

20 A. Yes, I see it.

21 Q. Is this a photograph taken by Dr. Xheladin --

22 MR. KAY: Excuse me. Shall we establish a foundation? I mean, I

23 know where the evidence arises, and I think I know what's going to happen

24 as I'm quite used to the Prosecution question --

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not know this person.

Page 42854

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Lay a foundation.

2 MR. KAY: Well, the answer's been given.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: He doesn't know the person.

4 MR. KAY: Well, it's so obvious that he can't talk about someone

5 else's medical reports who he doesn't know, and he's a forest ranger, and

6 he's been shown the file from a doctor in the area. It doesn't begin to

7 hang together as appropriate cross-examination of this witness --

8 MR. SAXON: Well --

9 MR. KAY: -- unless a foundation can be established, and perhaps

10 we should do that before we start exhibiting the pictures on the ELMO for

11 whatever publicity there may be.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Maybe the first -- perhaps the first thing that

13 should have been established was the foundation for the witness's

14 assertion that no torture or maltreatment ever took place in the police

15 station.

16 MR. KAY: I took his answer to be a reference to those people that

17 he'd had dealings with, and the question was asked in such an open-ended

18 way by the Prosecutor that the witness concisely kept himself to his own

19 knowledge.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Please move on, Mr. Saxon.

21 MR. SAXON: I will do that. I will retract the photograph, then.

22 Q. What is the basis, sir, for your statement that there was no

23 torture or mistreatment of persons in the Urosevac police station? Why do

24 you say that? How do you know that?

25 A. I'm saying this because at least 200 persons, and I haven't seen

Page 42855

1 other photographs -- if you show the head or the face of a person probably

2 I would have been in a position to recognise him. Just as I am sitting

3 here, I see the faces of people. How could it be possible to recognise a

4 person in such a photograph?

5 Q. Sir, that's not the question I asked you. You told the Chamber a

6 few minutes ago that there was no torture or mistreatment at the Urosevac

7 police station. My question is: How do you know that?

8 A. I know this because -- because 200 members of my family -- I'm not

9 lying to you -- is my uncle, and the brother of my mother, and no one ever

10 touched them. I did not report it to anyone, but I told this to my family

11 members. And I'm not lying to you, because no one tortured them. No one

12 did any harm to them.

13 One of them was tortured, and we can even confirm it even now. So

14 I'm saying what I know.

15 Q. Sir, I'm just trying to understand your testimony. Are you saying

16 that over time, during the 1990s, 200 members of your extended family were

17 either detained or questioned in the Urosevac police station? Is that

18 what you're saying?

19 A. No, I didn't say 200 of them. I said of the 200 members of my

20 family, because you asked me about torture. I don't know of anyone being

21 tortured. This is the first time for me to see such a picture.

22 Q. So just to summarise your testimony, your testimony today that no

23 one was ever tortured or mistreated in the Urosevac police station is

24 based upon your conversations with the members of your extended family,

25 about 200 people; correct?

Page 42856

1 A. I said 200, but I can guarantee you for 3.000 persons not being

2 beaten. People from Judikarak [phoen], Nik [phoen], Belince, Latiste

3 [phoen], Zega villages. I have people I know, in-laws, in all these

4 villages and I don't know of any of them being tortured or maltreated. I

5 know only of one case of someone having attacked a policeman and he was

6 beaten.

7 During all the time I lived there, I know that only that case

8 happened.

9 Q. Sir --

10 A. I have never seen any other -- as to what you showed me here, such

11 picture, I have never seen such picture.

12 Q. Did you know every one who was detained at the Urosevac SUP

13 between 1991 and 1999?

14 A. Yes, I know.

15 Q. You know every single person who was detained during those nine

16 years at one time or another for one reason or another at the Urosevac

17 police station. That's your testimony today?

18 A. They have been detained in the Urosevac Ferizaj police station

19 when they were captured with arms or with other illegal possessions, or --

20 it was myself sometimes that have called the police when I have

21 intercepted people carrying loads of goods. They were taken to the police

22 station but they were not beaten.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: You haven't answered the question, which is

24 whether you know every single person who was detained in the nine years

25 from 1991 to 1999. It's either yes or no.

Page 42857

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said already, of all these

2 persons, none of them, with the exception of a single person who attacked

3 a policeman, the others were not maltreated or tortured. I can't tell

4 anything about other people.


6 Q. You don't know all of those people personally, because there's

7 simply too many people to know and you were up in the forest; right?

8 A. I know many people because I covered 12 villages in my area.

9 Recently they have become over 60 villages. I told you earlier from

10 Strpce, to Stimlje, Ferizaj to Gnjilane, that was part of my duty, but I

11 have never seen such tortures that you are telling me of.

12 Q. Sir --

13 A. I cannot guarantee --

14 Q. I'm going -- I see. Now you cannot guarantee. I'm going to move

15 to another topic now because we need to take a break soon.

16 You mentioned that your daughter was kidnapped recently. Did this

17 event occur in Ferizaj?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you tell us, please, the date when it occurred?

20 A. I don't remember the date, because I want to kill myself when I

21 heard my daughter was kidnapped, at the moment I heard about that.

22 Q. Can you recall the month when it occurred, when this event

23 occurred?

24 A. Some five or six months have passed by. I can't tell you exactly

25 how many --

Page 42858

1 Q. So if we are --

2 A. -- because I don't feel well ever since.

3 Q. If we're in the middle of August now, 1999 [sic], then your

4 daughter would have been kidnapped sometime in March or April? Is that

5 approximately right? Does that sound right? Or perhaps February or

6 March?

7 A. Five month. You can count that. Maybe two, three days more or

8 less, but I know that it's five months since when my daughter was

9 kidnapped. I know that when I was informed of coming here, three days

10 after that my daughter was kidnapped. And when I was here, my daughter

11 called the wife and said that she was alive. My father told me that.

12 Q. What's your --

13 A. And I think the reason is myself.

14 Q. What is your daughter's name, the daughter who was kidnapped?

15 A. Hazbija Fazliu.

16 Q. So UNMIK would have a record about this; right?

17 A. Certainly.

18 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I note the hour. Perhaps this would be a

19 time to break for today. I have a few more questions for tomorrow.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Would you be much longer than another five or ten

21 minutes or -- because perhaps you could try to finish today.

22 MR. SAXON: I think I might be, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: I take it from these last questions you're going to

24 investigate this matter before completing your cross-examination.

25 MR. SAXON: Yes. I would like the opportunity to, yes, Your

Page 42859

1 Honour.

2 JUDGE KWON: I assume there's a typo in line 15, page 83: "1999."

3 MR. SAXON: I apologise, Your Honour. It was my mistake. We're

4 now in August 2005. It's completely my fault.

5 Q. Can the witness just tell us which police station the crime was

6 reported to?

7 A. As I already said, at Ferizaj police station it was reported. You

8 have your telephones, your mobile phones to find out whether what I'm

9 saying is true. I'm here, so you can ascertain everything.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. We will adjourn and resume tomorrow

11 at 9.00 a.m.

12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

13 to be reconvened on Friday, the 19th day

14 of August, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.