Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 44429

1 Wednesday, 21 September 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll start in private session.

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Page 44437

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16 [Open session]

17 MR. NICE: Your Honours, can I return your attention to the

18 question of Lord Ashdown's evidence and add to what I was able to reveal

19 to you yesterday about the existence of the statement of Lord Ashdown by

20 informing you or re-informing you that indeed a video has been taken from

21 the positions that Lord Ashdown gives as the coordinates of where he was.

22 And although that video has yet to be provided to the other parties,

23 simply for want of time, it only having come into the office last week and

24 needing to be processed, it is a potentially extremely valuable piece of

25 material to resolve this issue, without, for example, obliging people

Page 44438

1 either to do more work on the issue or go to the region to check it out

2 themselves.

3 Now, the complex position in which we find ourselves is not of the

4 Prosecution's making. It is entirely as a result of the approach taken by

5 the accused through this witness. The evidential position developing from

6 Lord Ashdown saying roughly where he was and what he saw, through attempts

7 by the Defence evidence to say that this was impossible and something he

8 couldn't see, now apparently to attempts to rely on what's said to be

9 expert material, which is going to be added to, we know, by further maps

10 that the witness is going to have drawn overnight.

11 I have not yet been in a position to serve the statement that

12 accompanies the video, and therefore perhaps one of the reasons the video

13 hasn't yet itself gone. I suppose I might be in a position next week, if

14 given leave to cross-examine again on the basis of the video and to put

15 the video to the witness and so on. But the position is becoming complex

16 and consuming of time on a topic that is -- should be, in our submission,

17 comparatively straightforward. And it's becoming complex probably, or

18 possibly, because material is being placed before you that is not helpful

19 and may even be misleading. So that, for example, we still cannot

20 understand, in respect of the maps provided, why the sight-line positions

21 have been chosen, because none of them seem to relate to the evidence

22 given by Lord Ashdown.

23 How we should proceed from here is a little hard to know. I had

24 the statement and the video been available in advance, I probably would

25 have wanted it served on the accused and on the witness, in the hope that

Page 44439

1 this might bring him to a realisation that what Lord Ashdown said about

2 his ability to see things is accurate and true, because the witness hasn't

3 been to these positions himself, he's only working it from other material.

4 We're not able to do that, and I'm frankly not quite sure where we should

5 proceed from here.

6 What I would press the Chamber at this stage is to be cautious or

7 conservative in the leave it gives to this witness at this stage to start

8 speculating or to work on the expert or so-called expert material of

9 others. But I can only invite the Chamber to take that position if, as I

10 explained, there is rebuttal evidence available not only in the form of

11 Lord Ashdown's statement but in the form of a video, and it's a video

12 that, if I can, I may serve on the other parties today, with or without

13 the statement that explains it. The video has a soundtrack of the

14 investigator saying what he's looking at, so it to some degree is complete

15 and self-sufficient. And it lasts -- but it's about 20 minutes of text.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: You would be seeking to put that video in

17 evidence at what stage?

18 MR. NICE: Rebuttal would be the standard place to put it in in

19 evidence.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: There might be an argument here, I put it no higher

21 than that, that there ought to be further cross-examination in a situation

22 where it was never put to Ashdown in his evidence when he was here that he

23 couldn't see what he claimed to see.

24 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I absolutely accept that. Lord Ashdown is

25 willing to come back. But in the management of the trial --

Page 44440

1 JUDGE BONOMY: No, no. I don't mean that. I mean that further --

2 another opportunity might be given to you to cross-examine this witness

3 following the re-examination and in the light of the reaction you get to

4 the video. I wasn't thinking as far ahead as Lord Ashdown giving evidence

5 again.

6 MR. NICE: I'd be grateful for that. I am aware of the time this

7 issue is consuming for the procedural reasons I've already explained.

8 There it is. That's the information I can give you. I'm not yet

9 in a position to deal with the Atlantic Brigade. I'll come back to you as

10 soon as I am. But I have so far not received response from those whom I

11 have sought assistance from.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I didn't hear from Mr. Nice when

15 that video footage that he intends to serve was actually filmed.


17 MR. NICE: It was filmed this summer, in response to the evidence

18 of this -- effectively in response to the evidence of this witness. And

19 to my knowledge, none of the hills that are to be seen in the video at the

20 present have been formed since the time when Lord Ashdown gave his

21 evidence first.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, I suppose not.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have one more thing to say,

24 Mr. Robinson. Does that mean that the cameraman went there to the region

25 without Lord Ashdown to establish what could possibly be seen from various

Page 44441

1 points, or did he go to the exact spot where Lord Ashdown said in his

2 testimony he was located at?

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: We're not dealing with the video now, questions

4 of admissibility, so you don't need to get into those questions.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, then.

6 One more matter. It was said that the witness has not been there,

7 so he could not possibly know. That is only partially true. The units

8 subordinate to the witness were there, and it was their job to be on the

9 border. And they had the assignment to observe the border line and the

10 border belt. So it is not completely correct to say that the witness

11 cannot know because he wasn't there.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let me give the Trial Chamber's decision in

14 relation to some exhibits. Delic exhibits, I'll deal first with tabs from

15 Exhibit D300. We'll admit tab 104, 111, 125, 136, 148, 149, and 342.

16 Other documents now. The Serb version of the Split clips 1, 3, 4, 8, and

17 9, 11, 13, 15, also Pavkovic's order, the picture of the woman and

18 daughter in video clip in tab 476. The video of the interview with the

19 woman interviewed in tab 476. The statement of --

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: The statement of Lulzim Kolgjeraj; statement of

23 Mihill Bezhi, statement of Llesh Lekaj, the war diary, the video clip from

24 the BBC showing pictures of refugees in Macedonia; Noam Chomsky book, The

25 New Humanistic Militarism, page 30.

Page 44442

1 And then in relation to Mr. Seselj, D303, tab 9; D303, tab 11;

2 D303, tab 29; D303, tabs 9 and 11. And I'm to say that tab - sorry - that

3 D309 consists of seven tabs, not six, as was indicated.

4 JUDGE KWON: I'd like to note that those exhibits refer to -- in

5 relation to Delic are those used by the Prosecution, and the new exhibits

6 should be given numbers in due course.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness be brought in.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, it was my

9 understanding that the exhibits of General Delic from the time when he

10 went through his examination-in-chief were admitted. So now we're talking

11 about something different, aren't we? If we are, then I ask that General

12 Clark's book be admitted into evidence as well, the one that General Delic

13 quoted yesterday. He marked the page, he gave an exact reference. And

14 that is very important evidence. It shows the alliance, or rather, the

15 concerted action between NATO and the KLA.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, that will be admitted, page -- what was the

17 page? We'll get the page.

18 [The witness entered court]

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It can be found in the transcript.

20 MR. NICE: General Clark's book was only admitted in passages, I

21 believe, not in whole.

22 JUDGE KWON: Only those passages referred to.

23 MR. NICE: And we'll probably need an English page reference. I

24 think the witness was reading from a B/C/S page reference yesterday. I'm

25 not sure.

Page 44443

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll check it and have the corresponding

2 reference for the English pagination.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I just say that there's a

4 difference between the Serb pagination and the English pagination, the

5 pages are different.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we're aware of that.

7 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I now move on to those questions

9 that you've postponed until today, that is to say maps, and 3-D

10 photographs, the ones I handed out to everyone yesterday through the

11 liaison officer?

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic, you may.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Robinson.


16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 Re-examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]

18 Q. General, yesterday I gave you some maps, or rather, 3-D

19 photographs of parts of the terrain that Mr. Ashdown testified about. I

20 put some questions to you about that during the examination-in-chief. You

21 challenged what he had said, as you presented material facts in this

22 regard. Could you please place on the ELMO and briefly explain the map

23 marked number 1. A pencil was used to mark the maps, and I hope that you

24 had the opportunity of having a look at them. Could you please explain

25 what this map represents, and particularly, whether it represents the

Page 44444












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Page 44445

1 terrain that Mr. Ashdown referred to during his testimony.

2 A. This is a three-dimensional picture, and it was probably made on

3 the basis of Lord Ashdown's --

4 MR. NICE: Probably made. He doesn't know anything about this

5 document. This is somebody else's material, not even accompanied by a

6 statement explaining what it is, handed to a witness, and you're going to

7 be asked to draw some assistance from his comments on it. This line of

8 re-examination should, in my respectful submission, be curtailed and move

9 on to something else.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I think that it has to

11 do with imprecision in the witness's speech, knowing the terrain and

12 knowing the map. The witness could have said that it was undoubtedly done

13 in that terrain rather than probably. Since the witness is so familiar

14 with the terrain.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have had a look at all the images,

16 and what Mr. Nice said just now, this can be explained by any officer. I

17 think that Mr. Nice's objection is out of order. So this is part of the

18 border that is the highest peak.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: As far as I'm concerned, it's not for a witness to

20 start claiming that anyone's objection is out of order.

21 I have not had it explained to me yet what this is. I have no

22 idea what it is. I do understand what the maps are that follow, but the

23 first document is meaningless at the moment to me, and I don't know the

24 basis of the witness's knowledge about what it is, or anything.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, can you establish the basis of the

Page 44446

1 witness's knowledge in relation to this map?

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. General, can you recognise the terrain that is depicted in this

4 image, and what does this 3-D image represent?

5 A. I fully recognise the terrain. This is a 3-D image that was made

6 on the basis of vectors on a computer. And it has to do with the terrain

7 of Morina, Gegaj, Kamenica, and the immediate state border between

8 Yugoslavia and Albania.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: How is it you know that?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It can be seen here. You can read

11 it here on the image.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. All right. Well, you read it out.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Are you saying there's something written on it?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course. Can you see this

16 here? Can you see what I'm showing now? It says "Maja Glava." Can you

17 see that it says "Kamenica" here, that that's what's written.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: So you're recognising this terrain from what's

19 written on the map; is that the position?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm recognising this terrain

21 according to what it looks like and according to what the map says. I was

22 in the area dozens of times. And you see it says Gegaj here. That's

23 what's written here. Can you see the colouring here, the state border?

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may proceed, Mr. Milosevic.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 44447

1 Q. This is a terrain which undoubtedly includes the village of Gegaj

2 and the entire configuration surrounding it, including the state border

3 that is marked here.

4 A. Let me just tell you where Junik is, because that was in dispute.

5 Junik is behind this elevation here, behind it. Several hundred metres

6 lower down, behind this. That is why I said that the lord could see Junik

7 only if he could see through a hill.

8 JUDGE KWON: Where did you say Gegaj is? Could you point the

9 place?

10 THE WITNESS: [Indicates]. You can even read it.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. I hope that you've all received copies. I've given a sufficient

13 number of sets of these maps, gentlemen.

14 JUDGE KWON: Where is Batusa?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Batusa cannot be seen. Batusa

16 cannot be seen.

17 JUDGE KWON: How about Bucaj, Bucaj in Albania?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Albania? As far as Albania is

19 concerned, you can see that the area includes the immediate surroundings

20 of Gegaj, and Kamenica, and this part of the border, and it doesn't go

21 further into the Albanian territory. So this 3-D image was made as one

22 views the terrain from Albania.

23 JUDGE KWON: So this is viewed from where in Albania? Where's the

24 viewpoint? Do you know where is the viewpoint of this picture?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll have to take my own map. This

Page 44448

1 is viewed from trig point 805, towards Gegaj and the area that looks

2 towards Brovina Kodra, trig point 805. It's the direction from Albania.

3 And that's the viewpoint for this 3-D image.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: Does it not look to you as if it was viewed from

5 mid-air and not from the ground at all?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Gentlemen, I would not like to go

7 into explanations now as to how 3-D imagery is made. It is made on the

8 basis of existing maps. Then vector values of altitude are entered, and

9 then the computer makes this kind of image. You can get this kind of

10 image for any part of my territory. That is why you see that these names,

11 Maja Glava, Gegaj, Kamenica, are different, because --

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you not get the image, though, from a particular

13 point, in other words, a point on the ground, as if you were viewing it

14 from that point? And if you do, why can't we just be told how it was done

15 rather than leave you to speculate?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not guessing at all. I'm not

17 speculating. This is my own line of work. But how can I explain it to

18 you? How can I explain vector values to you, on the basis of which maps

19 are drawn?

20 JUDGE BONOMY: You're saying that the trig point you've given as

21 805 is the point where the feet of the person who would have this view

22 would be located?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When this image was made, this 3-D

24 image, the wish was to show Kamenica, Gegaj, and the direction that Lord

25 Ashdown said he saw in Kosovo and Metohija. That was the objective,

Page 44449

1 and --

2 JUDGE BONOMY: You didn't answer my question, which is whether the

3 trig point you've identified, 805, is where the feet would be of the

4 person who would see this image, looking out across country. Or is that

5 not what it would be?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is the direction.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you not answer my question?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, your question --

9 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm assuming Lord Ashdown's feet were on the ground

10 when he viewed. Now, are we seeing the equivalent of a picture, a person

11 with his feet on the ground would take from trig point 805, or are we not?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This image shows only that if Lord

13 Ashdown is standing near the state border, near the village of Gegaj, that

14 he cannot see Junik. This image was made only for that purpose.

15 MR. NICE: I'm curious, of course, that it should be made for that

16 purpose, given that Lord Ashdown didn't claim to see Junik, but claimed to

17 see areas south of Junik. And unfortunate that our time should be being

18 taken when I think the accused is substantially through the amount of time

19 allowed for his case, 60 per cent or something like that, and we're taking

20 time on issues like this. I really must press the Chamber to bring this

21 to a conclusion.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic, proceed.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If we're dealing with truth,

24 Mr. Nice, that means that Lord Ashdown --

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: You are not to comment -- don't comment on the

Page 44450

1 truthfulness of any witness. That's not your province.

2 Mr. Milosevic, please proceed.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. General, would you now place on the ELMO and give us your comments

5 of the number 2 picture, entitled "Cross Relief on the Gegaj-Junik Axis."

6 A. This is a map, a picture, topographical map, in fact, showing the

7 axis, the direction, from trig 804 towards trigometric point around Junik.

8 And what we see down at the bottom is the graph relief.

9 Q. Let's just clear this up, General. According to the trig point

10 south of Junik; is that right?

11 A. Yes, yes, that's it. So the relief graph, in red, shows --

12 Q. Could you put it up a bit? Because we can't see it on the ELMO.

13 May we see the graph at the bottom of the reliefs?

14 A. The red shows what you cannot see. The computer here should have

15 introduced a green line here. So what is lacking here is the green

16 colour, the green line, and that is what can be seen from that particular

17 point. And it refers to this direction and axis. The visibility is only

18 from this point to that, and this small portion there. All the red line

19 shows the configuration of the terrain and the impossibility of seeing

20 anything along this axis, anything else.

21 Q. Now, what do we see on the right-hand side of the line, the

22 visibility line?

23 A. A point south of Junik and the distance to that point, which

24 is 9.492 metres.

25 Q. All right. I hope that that is clear now.

Page 44451

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we have on the ELMO another map

2 now, please. It is map number 3, the binocular view and cross-section of

3 the relief along the Gegaj-Junik axis.

4 A. Yes. So this point here is around Gegaj and it shows the area

5 south of Junik, across Batusa, a point there, a point which in fact is

6 located in the Junik stream. And on the graph, you can see the green

7 line, the green curve, which shows that portion which is visible from the

8 point, and the red curves indicate the points that aren't visible. It is

9 7.480 metres -- 408 metres.

10 Q. So those lines denote the contours and profile of the terrain; is

11 that right?

12 A. Yes, that's right, along the line that was drawn.

13 Q. Fine. Let's have a look at map number 4 now, please. What does

14 that map show?

15 A. This map represents -- we see the region of Kamenica on our side

16 of the state border, and it shows -- it goes across Junik and shows a

17 point up here to the north of Junik. And underneath that, we have the

18 graph, which shows what is visible. So at the beginning, the green line

19 shows the visibility of one part of the territory and terrain, and

20 visibility on two other places. And all the rest is in red, which means

21 not visible. The distance between these two points is 7.351 metres.

22 Q. Very well, General. Let's have a look at map number 5 now,

23 please. What line does that show? Is that the line between the

24 Gegaj-Junik area?

25 A. This is north-west of Gegaj, and the highest elevation point, the

Page 44452












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Page 44453

1 highest point, which is located in this area is in Albania, west of the

2 village of Lukaj. I think it's 1.105 metres altitude, that feature, and

3 it shows the centre of Junik directly. It goes straight to the centre of

4 Junik. And from that point, this is what you can see, or rather, you

5 cannot see anything. There is no visibility line there, no visibility

6 curve at all.

7 Q. Very well, General.

8 JUDGE KWON: Let me be clear about this one. The 3-D picture

9 we've seen is a 3-D view of map number 2? Am I right? Actually, in other

10 words, number 1 picture is a view from this Kodra, Sipsaj - I don't see

11 it - which is 804 point?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It corresponds both to map number 2

13 and map number 3, because they show the same direction, the same axis. So

14 the axis corresponds to both map 2 and 3.

15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. And we're on map 5, which is on the overhead projector, General;

18 is that right?

19 A. Yes. I think I've just explained map 5.

20 Q. Yes, you've just explained map 5, which means that you could only

21 see anything, visibility would only be through the mountains, if you were

22 able to look through mountains?

23 A. Yes. This has just been done on the basis of relief, not

24 including natural vegetation that exists there on the territory.

25 Q. So just relief, as if it was bare, a bare terrain?

Page 44454

1 A. Yes, that's right.

2 Q. Because natural vegetation could make visibility even worse, not

3 to improve it; isn't that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Right. Let's take a look at map number 6 now, please, which

6 represents a binocular view and cross-section of the relief of

7 Orahovac-Suva Reka.

8 A. This is a feature above Orahovac, one of the highest points, and

9 it shows the centre of Suva Reka. Only at the very beginning, here, there

10 is slight visibility.

11 MR. NICE: I must make a point, because time is simply flowing

12 away. None of the selected vantage points is, as far as I know, of any

13 relevance to the evidence of Lord Ashdown. So I'm listening with what I'm

14 prepared to describe as interest to material which it seems to me has no

15 relevance to the case whatsoever.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson --

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Which of these drawings supports your position

18 that Lord Ashdown could not see what he said he saw from where he said he

19 was?

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All of them. All of them,

21 Mr. Robinson. And the second point, what Mr. Nice has just said, is quite

22 incorrect, because my associates requested that according to Lord

23 Ashdown's testimony as to where he was and what he saw, an exact relief

24 and map be drawn up of what he could see and what he couldn't see. And

25 here you have something, and I invite any expert whom you would like to

Page 44455

1 call to check these images out. The Royal Geographical Society of Great

2 Britain, for instance, anybody. And if they challenge this, then I'll say

3 no more about it. This was a professionally devised set of maps. These

4 are material facts. If he can prove that he can see through a hill,

5 through a mountain, then he was able to see what he saw. But he couldn't

6 have seen what he wrote and what the representatives of the KLA had told

7 him. Had he been with representatives of our own army, then he could have

8 gone and seen what he was interested in.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Milosevic. How much longer will

10 you spend on this?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very briefly, because, as you can

12 see, we're moving through these maps very quickly. So this

13 Orahovac-Suva Reka axis, we took the highest feature of Orahovac and were

14 able to see that nothing can be seen, complete invisibility, because there

15 are ten hills to obstruct views.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Isn't that so, General?

18 A. Yes, that's quite clear.

19 Q. Let's have a look at map number 7, now, please, the

20 Orahovac-Suva Reka axis once again?

21 A. Above the road between Orahovac and Suva Reka the feature is

22 Gumniste, and the axis is Suva Reka. That's the general direction. There

23 is visibility only in the initial parts for 700 metres.

24 Q. Very well. Let's have a look at number 8 now, please. This

25 feature is Blato, Blato-Suva Reka is the axis. There is visibility just

Page 44456

1 to begin with, in the first part, at this feature.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't understand either of the last two. Why do

3 you say in particular in the last one you just can't see anything beyond a

4 few yards? You don't think someone could get into a position where he

5 could see all the way for nine kilometres?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Bonomy, this is topography,

7 which means that we're talking about this axis, this direction, left,

8 right, forward, back, front, behind. If you tell me, I can find what you

9 want to see. I'll find it, the exact point from which you would be able

10 to see what you want to see. However, here, quite obviously, you can see

11 Suva Reka -- you can't. Many directions were used, many axes were used.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: But looking at your diagram at the bottom,

13 Suva Reka is on the right-hand side at 9. -- is it 9.156 metres? And on

14 the left-hand side, we have the green part that you say is visible. But

15 why can't one see right along the line of the -- the dotted line? What's

16 the obstruction?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What you've just mentioned here is

18 the distance between these two points. Suva Reka is at an altitude of

19 about 400 metres, and this other feature here is at an altitude of 626.6

20 metres. However, in front of this point --

21 JUDGE BONOMY: [Previous translation continues]... 800. 826.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, 826.6. But in front of it, in

23 front of the feature, there's another feature, which blocks the view,

24 blocks visibility towards the whole of Suva Reka. I don't say that at

25 some other point you would not be able to find a feature a little closer,

Page 44457

1 in the region of Dobrodeljane and so on, and then be able to see at least

2 half of Suva Reka, and that would be the south-eastern portion.

3 JUDGE KWON: But simply, according to that diagram, there's no

4 obstruction; do you not agree?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what you think.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The obstruction to visibility is at

7 the beginning of the line, straight away. The later ones are not

8 important.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let's take a look at map number 10.

10 This is a straight line that has been drawn from one point to link up with

11 another point. However, here, when this relief was done, each point where

12 the land falls off and rises, the rise and fall of the terrain, have been

13 introduced into this graph. And we can see in the first section - this is

14 perhaps 100 metres - then you cannot see a portion. Then you can once

15 again see a portion here, and nothing after that, right up to Suva Reka.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Let's have a look at number 10. General, let's just clarify this.

18 What you've shown here - and these maps are drawn up by experts - they

19 looked at all the possible points and features around Orahovac, from which

20 it was possible to look in this direction?

21 A. This is north of Orahovac, and certain features were taken,

22 certain elevations were taken, Forsu [phoen], and linked to Suva Reka, at

23 different distances. This point is 14.654 metres away from Suva Reka.

24 Q. Very well. Let's have a look at the next one now. What does that

25 show?

Page 44458

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, before you proceed, Judge Kwon had

2 put to the witness in relation to map number 8 whether he agreed that

3 there would have been visibility from a particular point, and the witness

4 said: "That's what you think." So I didn't get an explanation from the

5 witness as to whether there would be an obstruction to the view.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I explain this to Mr. Kwon now,

7 please?

8 Mr. Kwon, can you see this? If a person were to be standing at

9 this point here, they would be able to see everything up until this point

10 here. They wouldn't be able to see anything up to this point, but they

11 could see a little portion here. They wouldn't be able to see anything up

12 until this point, and probably this last part, they would be able to see.

13 Now, if they were to move several hundred metres in front. It

14 depends what point you're looking from, the vantage point, if I've made

15 myself clear enough.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic, proceed.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Let's have a look at the next number. We can skip the ones we

19 have commented on.

20 A. Well, it's all similar. Viewed from another feature, called

21 Turine, overlooking Suva Reka, it shows parts that are visible and other

22 parts that are not visible. The distance is 14.654 metres.

23 Q. Very well.

24 A. And this is the last map.

25 Q. The last map, where you can also see these peaks.

Page 44459

1 A. Yes. The visible parts and the invisible parts.

2 Q. Very well. Now put on the overhead projector, please, and comment

3 on the visibility line and the visibility graph. Are there any maps that

4 remain? I gave you yesterday all that I had. I don't have any left.

5 A. I've shown everything you gave me, and all that remains is the

6 table of visibility and audibility.

7 Q. That's what I wanted. It's from the topographic manual. There is

8 a topography manual, Federal Secretariat for Defence, dated 1972, and

9 military topography, General Staff, 1979.

10 A. It's the assistant commander of section manual --

11 Q. Yes. Please comment on these subjects of observation. What can

12 you see, at what distance?

13 A. This is visibility by a naked eye. So a settlement can be seen at

14 a distance of 10 to 12 kilometres. When they say "settlement," they mean

15 populated areas on manoeuvring ground. They're not talking about cities

16 that -- or towns that can be seen at a greater distance as well.

17 A large building can be seen at a distance of eight kilometres.

18 Number 3: A village house, five kilometres. Window on a house, four

19 kilometres. Chimney on top of a roof, three kilometres. A person as a

20 point visible at two kilometres. Tank, distinguishable with difficulty

21 from other combat vehicles, two kilometres. Tank, as distinguished from

22 other combat vehicles, 1.5 kilometres. 9: Tree, pillar, 1.5. 10:

23 Movement of legs in walking, .7.

24 Q. What does this table mean?

25 A. This is designed to help soldiers know what they can observe at

Page 44460












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Page 44461

1 various distances so that they can report to their superiors.

2 Q. Thank you. You said you read this supplementary statement by Lord

3 Ashdown yesterday. Did you manage to identify new information now, and

4 what does this information represent?

5 A. I worked last night trying to distil as precise information as

6 possible, and I received the statements provided additionally by Lord

7 Ashdown, mentioning Junik, just as I said before.

8 Shall I show first what I received earlier on, what was provided

9 during Lord Ashdown's testimony, indicating precisely the locations from

10 which he observed?

11 Q. You received that from Mr. Nice?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Very well. Show it.

14 A. This was happening in the same courtroom. The pointer is showing

15 Gegaj village. On the back, there is the description of what was seen

16 from that location, what could be seen from that location.

17 Q. We see on this photo the pointer of Lord Ashdown as he was using

18 it during his testimony?

19 A. Right. And the second thing I received indicates what Mr. Lord

20 saw from another point, and that other point shows the area of Becej

21 village. I worked with those materials at the time, and they show

22 unequivocally that Lord Ashdown could not see those things.

23 Yesterday I received this supplementary statement, and I worked on

24 it as well. It is very typical that the lord invokes Criminal Code in

25 Bosnia and Herzegovina saying that perjury is prohibited, while everybody

Page 44462

1 knows that the Penal Code of Bosnia and Herzegovina does not bind Lord

2 Ashdown.

3 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues]... comment again. He

4 knows it's inappropriate and I don't know for which audience he's doing

5 it. But the Chamber might like to know that the format of Lord Ashdown's

6 statement is prepared with a view to its being served under provisions of

7 92 bis.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I'll just tell the witness.

9 Refrain from comments like that, Mr. Delic. You know they are

10 inappropriate.

11 MR. NICE: While I'm on my feet: The two extracts that the

12 witness has of video footage from Lord Ashdown's evidence were produced in

13 the last hearing involving the witness, but not by us, and I don't

14 actually have, I think, a hard copy of the two photos that he showed, or

15 bits of film that he showed. I'd be grateful if the accused could provide

16 me with a copy, or alternatively, if the witness's copy could be made

17 available to Mr. Nort over the break, and if Mr. Nort might be able to get

18 us a copy. Because I want to be able to deal with what was shown very

19 fleetingly on the overhead projector in due course.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm quite sure Mr. Milosevic will oblige.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, those images, or

22 rather, photographs that the General showed just now were photos received

23 from Mr. Nice during the testimony of that witness, in order to determine

24 precisely what Lord Ashdown was talking about. This witness was asked on

25 the basis --

Page 44463

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You can --

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's move on. Let's move on.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In his new statement, Lord

5 Ashdown --

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. It says "private session" on my monitor. Why is it a private

8 session?

9 JUDGE KWON: We are in open session.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Something else was on my monitor a

11 moment ago. It's okay now.

12 JUDGE KWON: Push the video monitor.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The imagery appeared.

14 I am interested in that image, because I cannot see the map from

15 where I'm sitting, and I want to see it at least on the monitor.

16 JUDGE KWON: Proceed.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a map on a scale

18 of 1:50.000. In his statement, the lord provided new coordinates for the

19 locations he was standing at. What I wish to say is the following: If

20 the lord says he was near Gegaj village at a certain point, according to

21 his new coordinates, he was two kilometres away from Gegaj village, on the

22 slopes of the feature Maja Glava, 700 metres or so from the peak of that

23 mountain.

24 Earlier on he was at an altitude of 680 metres, according to his

25 earlier information, he raised it now to 960 metres. So compared to his

Page 44464

1 earlier statement, he increased the altitude by about 300 metres.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Where is that point? Could you mark it?

4 A. It's marked on my map. That point is exactly on the state border,

5 about 700 metres from the feature called Maja Glava, going towards the

6 south.

7 Q. So it's exactly right on the state border?

8 A. The lord did not give exact coordinates. The exactitude of my

9 coordinates is --

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Delic --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 25 metres, whereas his margin of

12 error is 100 metres.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: I want to be very clear about this. You say that

14 Lord Ashdown, in his recent statement, has given a different coordinate, a

15 coordinate which places him at a higher point?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He did not indicate coordinates. He

17 only indicated Gegaj village. See what the present, the current point is.

18 Two kilometres from Gegaj village and 300 metres higher than the previous

19 altitude he indicated.

20 I just wish to indicate to you the characteristics of that

21 terrain. The border follows the topographical edge. On the Yugoslav

22 side, it falls down rather sharply, and on the Albanian side it sort of

23 falls right into a creek. So just a couple of hundred metres into

24 Albanian territory, you find yourself 300 metres deep in an abyss. So

25 what I'm saying is Lord Ashdown could not have been at this point.

Page 44465

1 As for some other measurements, in order to reach Gegaj from this

2 point, one needs 105 minutes, if you are using topographic manuals, with

3 the proviso that the difference in altitude is 300 metres and with the

4 proviso that you need to cross two kilometres over very inhospitable

5 terrain.

6 The next thing I want to say: In this part of the border belt,

7 around the block house of Morina, there are big chestnut forests, oak

8 forests, and at the point where Lord Ashdown says he was, there are beech

9 forests 100 years old, about 15 metres tall. In this area, there was no

10 clearing of the borderline, and there was no corridor made between two

11 parts -- two sides of the border, which is usually done. I know this

12 because I visited the area several times.

13 Third: At the time that Lord Ashdown invokes, the 23rd -- the

14 month of May and June of that year, and throughout the year, all state

15 authorities were represented 24 hours a day on the border. Only the

16 shifts changed. From the block house of Morina, there is complete control

17 and oversight of the road leading to Kamenica and the Albanian border.

18 From our block house, it is impossible to approach the border without the

19 soldiers manning the block house, the watch-tower, seeing it. There are

20 two state organs represent in this area, in either of these places. A

21 group of 10, 15 men could not have been in the area unnoticed.

22 Another thing: I keep my documents from that time, because my

23 unit was located at the relevant time in the area of Babaj Boks and the

24 area of Duznje, whereas another unit of mine secured Brovina and Molic. A

25 unit from the 125th Brigade secured Ponosevac and another unit from

Page 44466

1 125th Brigade secured Junik and Batusa. With your leave, I would like to

2 explain why we did that and why those units were present there.

3 JUDGE KWON: Pausing there, General. Setting aside the issue

4 whether Lord Ashdown was able to reach the point or not, do you agree that

5 one can see the -- south of Junik from the newly indicated vantage point?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have done that too, very

7 precisely.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Kwon, I don't know whether you

9 overheard what General Delic said about a dense beech forest being in that

10 area, about 100 years old, 15 metres tall.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Any man will tell you the same.

12 JUDGE KWON: [Previous translation continues]... which is not

13 clear to me.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From that vantage point, it is

15 impossible to see, due to the dense beech forest, it is impossible to see

16 anything south of Junik. Even if we discount the forest, if we take only

17 relief, it's impossible, and I've shown why on a map, or a graph I made.

18 But we need to show it on the overhead projector.

19 This point here is at an altitude of 960 metres, overlooking Molic

20 village, because Lord Ashdown mentioned Molic village. I don't know if

21 you can see on your monitors what I'm showing. We can see that this green

22 part of the line is what Lord Ashdown could see. Later on, after that, he

23 couldn't see anything. So he cannot see Molic village. He cannot see

24 anything up to the asphalt road. He could see what follows: The villages

25 that he indicated later, Njivokaz, Dobros, Berjak and Stuba.

Page 44467

1 JUDGE KWON: Are we dealing at the border which is near from

2 Gegaj?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. That's this new point. One can

4 see nothing beyond Gegaj. But the lord gave a new vantage point, 300

5 above the one he indicated earlier. Somebody evidently tried to adjust

6 Lord Ashdown's statement to make it look acceptable and truthful.

7 MR. NICE: That sort of comment won't do from this witness. He's

8 not here to express comments on the Prosecution, and I'm not going to put

9 up with that sort of thing from people like him through the Court, with

10 your leave, he must be restrained and kept in his place.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Delic, I've already spoken to you about

12 comments like that. They're inappropriate and they're not acceptable.

13 You are not to make them. Just give your evidence.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I did this all night.

15 Mr. Nice came yesterday and just brought in a piece of paper --

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Proceed with your evidence.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did my best to do this

18 professionally, and I'm saying in the most professional manner possible,

19 Lord Ashdown could not have seen what he claims to have seen. Brovina,

20 from here, from this point, you can see Brovina. The green colour depicts

21 what can be seen. Red shows what cannot be seen. From an observation

22 point, if we exclude the fact that there are trees there up to 15 metres

23 high, he could see Brovina except for the western group of houses that are

24 right by the hill.

25 Now, the third direction. That is from this point towards

Page 44468












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Page 44469

1 Ponosevac. So from this point, there is visibility, again, I'm saying, if

2 we disregard the forest that is there near the observation point, you can

3 see all the way up to the feature of Planik. Then you cannot see

4 Ponosevac. Or rather, if I'm to be precise, you cannot see Ponosevac to

5 the school. To the south of the school is the farm. This can be seen.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just remind me, Mr. Nice, or someone, did Lord

7 Ashdown give coordinates of his position in his evidence?

8 MR. NICE: Not in his first evidence.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Not in his first evidence.

10 MR. NICE: He explained his position in general terms. He pointed

11 out his position in general terms on the map and he said what he was able

12 to see. And I assume, without having yet had an opportunity to question

13 the witness, which is something I will now in due course be seeking to do

14 on this topic, but I assume that the observation he made about, was it 640

15 metres altitude or 620 metres altitude, is derived in some way from the

16 placing of the pointer on the map, but I'm not sure. No, he didn't give

17 coordinates to begin with. He pointed the position out and gave it in

18 general terms.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: The problem about all this evidence is that this

20 point wasn't taken up when it ought to have been taken up, and it just

21 shows the problems that can arise when the accused fails to do -- conduct

22 the case in a professional way.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: We are at the time for the break now, so we'll

24 adjourn for 20 minutes.

25 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

Page 44470

1 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, please continue.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. General, on the basis of what you did here now, what you drew,

5 what you marked, does this mean that the drawing you showed actually

6 showed that Lord Ashdown could have seen something only if he had climbed

7 the highest beech tree there?

8 A. From an observation post only or some high point above the forest.

9 He had to be above the forest. And even then, he could not see the first

10 part of Molic. He could only see Brovina in its entirety, and he could

11 see only the southern part of Ponosevac and the poultry farm.

12 Q. All right. But that's only if he had climbed the highest tree

13 there?

14 A. Only if he were above the treetops. Let me just mention one more

15 thing. In order to go from that point to the village of Gegaj and go

16 back, three hours are required, according to topographical norms.

17 Q. You mentioned a short while ago that your security organs at the

18 border were by the border itself and they could see both the border and

19 part of the territory of the Republic of Albania across the border.

20 A. In 1997 and 1998, all the way up to the war, at the border, round

21 the clock there was duty service by the border units. They were

22 reinforced by our units too. And I've already said in this case that my

23 unit secured this area, from Djakovica, Babaj Boks and Duznje, and in

24 depth, the border area up to Morina. The 125th Brigade was in Batusa and

25 Junik, and it secured that area toward Kosare in depth. If somebody saw

Page 44471

1 tanks, every day it was customary at 1000 hours for tanks, APCs, or other

2 self-propelled vehicles to go and be deployed along the road between Junik

3 and Duznje, because that is where the barriers were. They would all have

4 to come to Duznje at 11.00. Once the road would be secured, then the road

5 itself would be opened and everybody would go in his own direction. If

6 there were patients, sick persons from these units, they would be taken

7 towards Djakovica, whereas these people from Djakovica would go for

8 supplies and to see their units.

9 At 3.00 the road would close. Again, the barriers would be

10 placed. The tanks and all these other vehicles would return to their

11 bases, to their units. Smalica [phoen], Njivokaz and this entire area

12 here was held by terrorists, and that's why this had to be done this way.

13 The road was attacked every day. In May, three of my soldiers were killed

14 in the area of Ponosevac and three or four were seriously wounded.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Delic, we have the point.

16 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. So bearing in mind this assumed position, was this assumed

19 position under the observation of your security organs at the border?

20 A. Quite simply, no one could come to that position, because that is

21 the very state border. That is what we call the line itself.

22 Q. It is actually no man's land.

23 A. There is no such thing as no man's land. There is just a rock.

24 On one side it is marked as being ours, and next to it there is a border

25 stone where Albania is marked. So if you just take a single step, you are

Page 44472

1 in Albania. I guess that the lord did not come to our territory to

2 observe our territory.

3 Q. Thank you, General.

4 A. The other part has to do with Suva Reka, the rest of what I did.

5 As for what Mr. Nice gave.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Before we move on to Suva Reka, Mr.

7 Robinson, in relation to what Mr. Nice claimed, that I did not raise these

8 questions in good time, I consider that to be inappropriate, because I'm

9 using my own time to refute what Mr. Nice considers to be evidence, and

10 that is precisely the right time to do that kind of thing.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let me explain to you Mr. Nice's point. It is

12 that you did not seek to contradict the evidence in chief given by Lord

13 Ashdown during cross-examination. That part of his evidence was not

14 challenged. And that is so. Please continue.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I challenged his

16 evidence, and I could not bring in experts during my cross-examination, or

17 eyewitnesses who could have challenged the details. His testimony about

18 some tanks that were moving down the road and shooting is something that I

19 did challenge. You can read that in the transcript, because I know that

20 that kind of thing did not happen. And now this witness is proving

21 that --

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, we're referring to the evidence

23 that specifically relates to what Lord Ashdown said he saw from that

24 point. We're not speaking about other aspects of his evidence.

25 Now please continue.

Page 44473

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. General, in terms of Lord Ashdown's testimony, what did you do as

3 far as Suva Reka is concerned?

4 A. As for Suva Reka, Lord Ashdown gave some coordinates for the 27th

5 of September, 1998, when he came from Orahovac towards Suva Reka.

6 Q. The map cannot be seen here at all. I cannot see it at all. Here

7 on the screen, I just have a white rectangle instead of the map. And now

8 nothing. Now I can see the map.

9 A. The lord said that he stopped in the area of the village of

10 Studencane and --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please slow down when giving

12 numbers.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Delic, the interpreter is asking you to speak

14 more slowly.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 34T DM804898 were the coordinates

16 given by Lord Ashdown. I would like to say that the margin of error is

17 100 metres, whereas I tried to work with a margin of error of 25 metres.

18 According to Lord Ashdown's coordinates, it is this feature here

19 above Studencane. I marked with a little cross here Lord Ashdown's point,

20 although I think that that is elevation 488.

21 After that, Lord Ashdown says: "From that position I saw what I

22 described as Donje Blace, the contour of Donje Blace." It is on

23 34T DM915954 and 34T DM888968. I found those points referred to by Lord

24 Ashdown. This here is the first one, Cah Duge. It's a curve on the road.

25 The second point is in the area of the village of Blace.

Page 44474

1 However, since there is nothing further written here, these points

2 seem senseless to me in this context. The lord could not have seen these

3 points. If you follow what I'm showing here, right here, it was up to the

4 feature called Grab. And here, up to trig 686, above Semetiste. He could

5 see from here to here, from the point where he was, whereas these two

6 points that he referred to, he could not have seen anything, absolutely --

7 he could not have seen absolutely anything.

8 I don't know why he's referring to them. Several times I did

9 these calculations, thinking that perhaps I had made a mistake. For me

10 these two points are senseless, and I couldn't work with them further on.

11 I found them and I depicted them on the map. But from the lord's vantage

12 point, they are invisible.

13 That is for the 27th.

14 As for the 28th, Lord Ashdown says: "In relation to the part of

15 my testimony that deals with what I saw near Pecane on the 28th of

16 September, 1998, my assessment is that the coordinates from which I was

17 observing were 34T DM863920."

18 Pecan is the village here. Last time, if you remember, I

19 mentioned that Lord Ashdown was at that feature there, or this one here,

20 when Mr. Milosevic asked me. He could have seen a lot more if he were at

21 any one of these two. Trig 551 is what he refers to now, trig 551. I

22 testified that from that position I saw the villages of Budakovo, which is

23 at 34T DM945891."

24 So here I've found that particular point. It is in one of the

25 areas in the village of Budakovo, near Kokolari Mahala. Then he says that

Page 44475

1 he was observing Macitevo, Gornja Kruscica, and its coordinate is 34T

2 DM944902.

3 So that's Gornja Kruscica. And further on he says that he saw

4 Kruscica as well. Kruscica actually doesn't exist. It is Donja Kruscica.

5 And then the lord said nothing else, in terms of what he saw from there.

6 But he just specified those points. For those particular points, I worked

7 out his visibility line. As for the first two, I didn't work this out

8 because, as I said, it was senseless.

9 So you can see it here for Budakovo. As you can see, the green

10 colour, the green line, denotes what could have been seen. Budakovo can

11 be seen from that vantage point. Of the five areas of the village, the

12 five hamlets, only two were partially visible and the distance of --

13 between the village and the vantage point was seven and a half to nine and

14 a half kilometres. Because this is a large village, scattered.

15 The next one is the relief for the trig 551, Gornja Kruscica axis.

16 The green line, the green curve, shows what was visible; the red curve,

17 what was invisible. And from the vantage point, you can see most of the

18 Gornja Kruscica village.

19 As far as the village of Donja Kruscica is concerned, you can only

20 see around feature 738. The distance between Gornja Kruscica and this

21 point is eight to nine kilometres metres, and visibility at this village

22 is greatly reduced by the vegetation that exists there. However, looking

23 at it topographically, that village can be seen, largely be seen, at

24 least.

25 And the last one, the last axis mentioned by Lord Ashdown is the

Page 44476












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Page 44477

1 trig 551 axis and the village of Macitevo, which is located here. And I

2 counted it up to the school building. Up to the school building, which

3 makes it 11.35 kilometres. Once again, the green curve shows visibility,

4 the red curve shows invisibility. From the vantage point, you can see

5 part of the village around the school very well. As I looked -- up to the

6 school. Most of the village which is south-east of the feature, 1270, is

7 completely invisible. You cannot see it at all. And the distance from

8 the village to the front borderline, or back borderline, along the

9 west-east axis is between 11 to 14 kilometres. That means that you can

10 only see part of the village around the school building. And that would

11 be it, on the basis of the coordinates provided by Lord Ashdown.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Very well. Now, were you able, and now, having drawn up these

14 maps, can you establish what things that Lord Ashdown said he could see he

15 could actually have seen? Were you able to establish that?

16 A. We are dealing with the period between the 27th and 28th of

17 September, and that is the period when, in that part of the terrain, there

18 was the fifth stage of anti-terrorist struggle going on there. From the

19 distances that I indicated here - and they were the following distances:

20 8.7 kilometres, 8.25 kilometres, and 11 kilometres - we have to see what

21 can be seen from that distance. Those are the assessments that have to be

22 made.

23 Q. All right. According to your assessments, what could be seen?

24 A. Well, in the statement that I was given, I read out various

25 things. There was an order by the corps command, there was my own order,

Page 44478

1 because I was present myself. I was in the village of Macitevo for two

2 days. And from that distance, counting the visibility, the table of

3 visibility, which I showed you earlier on, that would mean that nothing

4 could be seen of the combat going on, because the distance is far too

5 great. If necessary, I can show you the orders, the order for combat.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: What difference does using binoculars make?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, at all events, if you use

8 binoculars, the possibility of seeing something is increased. But one

9 would have to know the characteristics of the binoculars themselves, their

10 range and degree of enlargement, the scale and the lens. But of course,

11 binoculars would help. Whereas what the camera showed, a window, it

12 showed a window, we saw a window, that is quite impossible.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. General, you mentioned an order. Does that order relate to those

15 days, precisely those days when Lord Ashdown, according to his testimony,

16 was in the area?

17 A. Yes, it does refer to those days. But as we were dealing with

18 1998 and as it was said that 1998 was not relevant, then I do have it, but

19 it wasn't included in the documents provided.

20 Q. Well, can you show us the order, please, if you have it with you.

21 A. This is the corps decision. May we zoom in on it? It's not very

22 clear. It's the corps decision for action, for that particular action.

23 And this is the corps order.

24 MR. NICE: May we know whether these are part of existing

25 documents, whether they are contemporaneous documents, or whether they're

Page 44479

1 documents prepared years later for the VJ Commission.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic -- or let me ask the witness.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, they are not documents that were

4 subsequently drawn up. These are contemporaneous documents from that

5 time. So this is part of the map. Of course, it wasn't this small. This

6 is a picture of the original map, or part of the map that I received from

7 the corps command. And the title here is [B/C/S spoken] for the

8 549th Brigade. Whereas this is the order that I received from the corps

9 command.

10 MR. NICE: Well, then --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After that, you have my order.

12 MR. NICE: The next question that I would like --

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And my map.

15 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues]... whether this is

16 part of an existing document that's been exhibited or is available in full

17 form, and also, if in due course we're going to be asked to consider

18 whether we should admit these -- accept or challenge the admission of any

19 of these documents, whether the full document is available for our

20 inspection.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, that's for Mr. Milosevic to say.

22 Mr. Milosevic, is this part of an existing document? Is it part

23 of an exhibit?

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] General Delic has already explained

25 to us - I'm sure you'll remember - how many exhibits there were and this

Page 44480

1 particular order was not included in the exhibits because it was

2 considered that 1998 was not a relevant year, as you claimed. However, as

3 this question has arisen now, he is showing us that particular order now.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: So it's not part of an existing document that has

5 been exhibited. Do you have the full document?

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Well, I can ask General Delic that. Does he have the full

8 document?

9 A. Yes, the document is complete, except for the fact that the maps

10 are small; they're not in the original size and scale. They have been

11 taken with a digital camera and exist in this small scale, whereas the

12 other documents are complete; they're full and complete.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. But those photograph maps exist in the archives, I assume; is that

15 right?

16 A. Yes, that's right.

17 Q. And what can we see, General?

18 MR. NICE: It's always interesting to see witnesses coming for

19 re-examination so well prepared. But if we're going to be shown an

20 extract, may I see both the extract and, in whatever size, the full

21 document? Because I'd like to review it.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, that may be shown to the Prosecutor.

23 MR. NICE: Your Honours, the photo of the full map is not in fact

24 the full map. It may be most of the map. In each case, they're

25 accompanied by orders which of course aren't in translation. I'm not sure

Page 44481

1 how this actually arises by way of re-examination, if the exercise

2 currently being performed is re-examination as opposed to some other

3 exercise. But I would be grateful, please, for provision of copies of

4 these documents by some system if they're going to be relied on at all by

5 this witness.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, as long as we don't say otherwise, it

7 is re-examination.

8 MR. NICE: Well, Your Honour, yes. But it seems to me the scope

9 of this re-examination is almost unprecedented. But there it is.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Let us proceed quickly.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very quickly, Mr. Robinson. But let

12 me just respond to the question raised by Mr. Nice. The witness knew

13 about the problem of maps and that we did not complete our re-examination

14 concerning the maps shown by Lord Ashdown. So bearing in mind the maps,

15 his testimony, and the days which he mentions in his testimony, quite

16 logically he brought with him and brought the documentation, in case it

17 should prove necessary.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Now, General, would you please be so kind as to tell us, but just

20 briefly, as was suggested by Mr. Robinson, something with respect to the

21 order you showed us. What's characteristic about that particular order?

22 You have the corps order there, you have your own order. What's all that

23 about?

24 A. I've already said that it was the fifth stage of anti-terrorist

25 actions. The order was given on the 25th of September, 1998. It was the

Page 44482

1 last territory of Kosovo and Metohija, if I can put it that way, where

2 there were still groups of terrorist forces which had not been routed and

3 demilitarised.

4 At the beginning, it says that on the border territory of the

5 mountains Jezero, Siptar forces, sabotage forces, were deployed. Their

6 strength was about 1.700 men to 2.200 terrorists, and they were grouped in

7 detachments, battalions and organised in the following manner for combat.

8 And then we have listed the regions in which they were located and how

9 many men there were in each region.

10 It says here the Sopina axis, Vuka-Macija axis, there were

11 approximately 300 to 400 Siptar terrorists in that locality, and they were

12 deployed in the villages in groups of 20 terrorists, 20 terrorists in the

13 villages, and they were also deployed in houses and schools. The staff

14 command was in Burzaja. Along the axis of Recani the village of Krustica

15 Budakovo, there were about 500 Siptar terrorists grouped in the villages

16 in groups of 25 terrorists, accommodated in the houses. The staff command

17 is in the village of Budakovo. And within the composition of that group,

18 there were also 20 Mujahedin.

19 In the TT 738 region, there was a small group of terrorists, which

20 so far was active. Along the Budakovo-Kruscica road, that's the next

21 point. And Budakovo-Gornja Kruscica, there were mines that were activated

22 by remote control.

23 Q. Very well, General. Let's just stop there in order to save time.

24 The material time, the time that we're discussing, that was a legitimate

25 anti-terrorist operation; is that right?

Page 44483

1 A. Yes. It was the last anti-terrorist operation to have been

2 undertaken on the basis of that plan, which had five stages. After this

3 particular operation, once that was completed, the verifiers arrived and

4 different activities ensued, quite different.

5 Q. Thank you, General. Let's move on now to another area.

6 General, Mr. Nice, during the cross-examination, on several

7 occasions, asked you about the measures of responsibility towards offices.

8 I would like to ask you to place this document on the overhead projector.

9 I have it here. It is dated the 17th of April, 1999. Is it a document

10 which speaks about the measure of responsibility and liability.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Milosevic explain what he means by

12 measure of responsibility of offices, translated literally.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is a very brief document. Could

14 you just take a look at the document and tell us whether that is indeed

15 one of the documents which speaks about that topic, the measures of

16 accountability or responsibility.

17 A. The copy is not a clear one, but this is a document which informs

18 the commanders and officers of the units that one brigade commander was

19 dismissed, was replaced, and that an investigation was underway and

20 measures for prosecution had been undertaken.

21 Q. Very well. Thank you, General. You certainly had occasion to

22 read - or maybe you didn't; I'll give you a copy to be placed on the

23 overhead projector - a copy of the letter of the main staff of the KLA,

24 addressed to the commander of the NATO force, Wesley Clark. In the

25 English original, it is number 00812264. And I will give you the

Page 44484












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13 English transcripts.













Page 44485

1 translation into Serbian.

2 Could you please give the witness the Serbian version and place

3 the English on the original [as interpreted]. Since I have only that

4 copy, could you please read the first paragraph, and then we will try to

5 cover at least some major points.

6 What is the date of this document?

7 A. The date says Kosovo, 18th of April, 1999, Main Staff of the KLA.

8 This letter is addressed to Mr. Wesley Clark, the commander of the NATO

9 forces.

10 Q. So that is still the first month of the NATO aggression against

11 Yugoslavia?

12 A. The first paragraph: "Please accept our thanks in the name of all

13 soldiers and officers --"

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Stop. Mr. Milosevic, I'm not going to allow you

15 to read this letter in its entirety. If there are particular areas that

16 you wish to focus on, then do so. We don't have the time to read the

17 entire letter.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. All right. Apart from the expression of gratitude, is there any

20 reference in the letter to certain activities that the NATO forces should

21 concentrate on in the view of the commander of the KLA?

22 A. Well, this is interesting. "We are working on opening a land

23 corridor, because on the other side of the border - they mean Albania -

24 there is a large number of volunteers." That is an interesting point.

25 Q. It also mentions the locations of our forces. It says that they

Page 44486

1 should be targeted. Is all that written in this letter?

2 A. For instance, the last paragraph: "We know that your air force

3 was guided by the motto do not strike bees; strike their nests. But to

4 Serbia, except for their aviation, which nest you have completely

5 destroyed, the other nests, that is, tank units, artillery units,

6 motorised infantry units, et cetera, have been moved out of their nests

7 and dispersed. The damage that you are doing to Serbia's economic and

8 military potential will force it to capitulate, but it needs time, which

9 for the KLA is painful. We think that at the time that when the Serb army

10 is dispersed, because they have knowledge of the fact of delay of your

11 ground troops, Serbia has spread its forces, but at the moment it is not

12 coordinated, not led or guided well, and incapable of replying quickly and

13 effectively to your ground forces."

14 There is another reference to manoeuvres of Serbian forces.

15 Q. Thank you, General.

16 MR. NICE: May I see that document?

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Let it be passed to the Prosecutor.

18 MR. NICE: I don't know if the accused would be good enough to --

19 just one minute.

20 [Prosecution counsel confer]

21 MR. NICE: I'm not sure now that arose incidentally out of

22 cross-examination, but it may be I missed the point. I'm not sure.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is without doubt a document of

24 the other side, and its number was 00812264. It is a document which

25 indubitably proves coordinated action between the KLA and the NATO forces,

Page 44487

1 and I would like it exhibited.

2 MR. NICE: First of all, Your Honours, is this re-examination or

3 is this additional evidence, A? B, if I'd been given advance notice of

4 this document, I'd know whether I had any position to take on it. At the

5 moment I'm just investigating what our position on the document may be.

6 The fact that it's served may or may not reflect acceptance of it as

7 genuine.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Chamber will admit the document.

9 MR. NICE: I think it had a respectable origin in our hands. I've

10 been able to trace that much. But it really is very difficult to deal

11 with material coming in this way without any advance notice, whether it's

12 relevant in re-examination or not.

13 THE REGISTRAR: That will be --

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: If you're embarrassed in any way, Mr. Nice, you

15 can ...


17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Let's move on.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Could you comment on those photographs from the book

21 titled "Genocide Against Serbs Towards the End of the Nineteenth Century"

22 and could you tell us what they represent?

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: How does that arise, Mr. Milosevic?

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, this is obviously about the

25 training of KLA members in the neighbouring Albania from which both NATO

Page 44488

1 and the Albanian state acted --

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm not allowing this in re-examination.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Very well. Let me ...

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. General, was Malisevo within your zone of responsibility?

6 A. Yes. Malisevo was covered by my peacetime area of responsibility,

7 and in the maps shown here, that was also indicated.

8 Q. When was the last time you were in Malisevo yourself?

9 A. I used to pass through rather often, but the last time I was there

10 in April 1999, the beginning of April.

11 Q. Although I have never been there myself, I know it is a very small

12 place. What was the importance of such a small place, could you tell us?

13 A. It is a crossroads of sorts. On one side, the road goes from

14 Pristina --

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, what is the issue and how does it

16 arise from cross-examination? You are not at large. Re-examination does

17 not provide an opportunity for you to lead evidence which you should have

18 led in chief.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, the thing is, and that

20 was mentioned in cross-examination, that there was cooperation between the

21 Verification Mission and the KLA, and I have a statement from William

22 Walker. I questioned the witness about the importance of Malisevo, and he

23 can say to what extent they discussed Malisevo with me. The subject, I

24 repeat, was raised in cross-examination concerning the statements of this

25 witness about the cooperation between the KVM, in general, and William

Page 44489

1 Walker, in particular, on the one hand, and KLA, on the other. That is

2 why I'm asking about --

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's deal with it, then, as briefly as possible.

4 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm afraid I don't have any recollection of this.

5 Mr. Nice, can you help?

6 MR. NICE: I'm afraid I don't have any recollection, but that's

7 not to exclude the possibility that I may not have asked him questions

8 about his possession of material on those topics in general terms. Because

9 I frequently did. Given the paucity of contemporaneous material provided

10 or the non-existence of such material, for the most part.

11 Your Honours, while I'm on my feet, because I don't know if we'll

12 be able to retrieve rapidly enough to make sensible use of time a passage

13 where I did ask a question about this. Can I just return to the previous

14 topic of the document produced, which indeed was provided by us. When I

15 say it had a respectable source, so far as I can establish, it was

16 provided to us by someone from the OSCE. Was it May of 1999? May of

17 1999, over the border in, I think, Macedonia. That, of course, says

18 nothing about its being a genuine document in the hands of the person who

19 handed it over. All I can say is that it's provided to us. There may be

20 an OSCE official or an OSCE interpreter or translator was respectable. It

21 doesn't say the document itself is or should be treated as genuine.

22 If I'm able to find out more about the document and to make any

23 concessions, I will, but otherwise it simply stands as a document that

24 hasn't been explored.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Let's deal with this matter

Page 44490

1 as briefly as possible.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. The point here is the cooperation of William Walker with the KLA,

4 and in his statement, he says, at the very beginning, something about a

5 meeting with me, and he says: "Another issue had to do with --"

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm allowing you to put the question. What's the

7 question?

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. General, do you know what activities the KLA was engaged in

10 Malisevo and what importance Malisevo held for the KLA?

11 A. Yes. Malisevo is in the centre of Drenica, an area which is

12 generally known as a stronghold of the KLA, and they called Malisevo their

13 capital town. It is important because it is on the Orahovac-Pristina

14 road, and it is on the crossroad Malisevo-Blace-Orahovac, et cetera.

15 Q. Since Malisevo is called the capital town of the KLA, how about

16 the insistence of Walker, Holbrooke, and others to demilitarise it in any

17 way linked with assistance lent to the KLA?

18 A. I know when police -- when patrols followed the police on this

19 road, it was always forbidden to go on with patrols on this road, because

20 it was extremely dangerous. I know that because Dragobilje is one

21 kilometre away from Malisevo, and that was the headquarters of the KLA.

22 The police in Malisevo did not have the right to patrol around. They

23 could only secure their own building. That was on the 2nd of April, 1999.

24 Q. What about this attention to Malisevo? Does it have anything to

25 do with the assistance lent to the KLA headquarters and security given

Page 44491

1 them?

2 A. Well, that is a section of the territory where only the verifiers

3 had access. I could not -- or my units could not patrol there,

4 because -- although it was my zone of responsibility.

5 Q. I have another subject to cover with you. Both you and Mr. Nice,

6 in relation to the event when a number of KLA members were killed near the

7 border, you replayed that tape several times to see whether the captured

8 people were KLA members and whether verifiers had access to them, and I

9 remember Judge Bonomy asking to see the film again to see whether the

10 verifiers actually spoke to the captured people. That remained unclear.

11 In that connection, I have to ask you a couple of more questions, because

12 I believe that is directly related to cross-examination and something that

13 was contested in your statements.

14 You spoke, General, of an incident that happened on the

15 14th December when a large group of terrorists, about 150 of them, clashed

16 on the border with your patrol.

17 A. Yes. That was on Pastrik Mountain, near the Likan watch-tower.

18 Q. Do you remember that in relation to this incident you provided

19 certain exhibits under tabs 212, 213, and 214, as well as a film, 216A?

20 A. I remember the film. The rest of the exhibits constitute my

21 analysis of what happened and a list of combat material that was seized

22 then.

23 Q. Was this the largest incident created by the KLA after the signing

24 of the agreement concerning the verifiers?

25 A. Yes. 36 KLA were killed and nine were wounded.

Page 44492












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Page 44493

1 Q. Were the verifiers notified and enabled to see the captured

2 terrorists and talk to them?

3 A. That's what I said during my examination-in-chief. I said that

4 General Drewienkiewicz said himself that the seized equipment had been

5 viewed, but nobody had seen the captured terrorists. Only those that were

6 killed. And I said that they were able to come to the spot. They even

7 saw a clash, a bit of fighting that happened in their presence. They

8 verified all the equipment. They verified and viewed the bodies. In one

9 place, they saw the captured terrorists that were given assistance. As we

10 could see on the video footage, they were able to get warm, near a fire.

11 Q. Thank you. We saw that on the video. Let me remind you only that

12 General Drewienkiewicz said in his statement, page 16 in the Serbian

13 version, said explicitly, describing this event: "But we never saw the

14 prisoners, because we photographed the bodies and the equipment, but we

15 never saw the captured terrorists."

16 That is his claim. I asked you, however, to point us to the place

17 in the video where we can see the prisoners, and you did that. Then

18 during cross-examination, both Mr. Bonomy and Mr. Kwon asked you whether

19 verifiers had talked to the prisoners, because we can see both parties on

20 the video film, but we cannot see the conversation. Do you continue to

21 claim that verifiers had unfettered access to the prisoners and talked to

22 them?

23 A. Absolutely, because I was present there all the time. And I

24 stayed there even after they left, so that I could resolve the other

25 questions that had to be dealt with.

Page 44494

1 Q. All right. Do you know what the composition of the OSCE teams

2 was, people who were present at the time?

3 A. I saw two OSCE vehicles and I also saw these persons whom I had

4 seen before. But as for their names, I don't know them. Most of my

5 contacts were with General Mazenuv [phoen] and when he was absent, with

6 his deputy. Lieutenant Colonel Mike Morrow, I think his name was. As for

7 the others, my liaison officers talked to them.

8 Q. All right. One of the members of that team, one of the members of

9 that team is Ian Henry Roberts. I have his statement here, given on the

10 12th of October, 2000, the 15th of December, 2000, and the 17th of

11 November, 2000. That's one of the verifiers who was there on the spot.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: We're waiting on the question, Mr. Milosevic.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. So you remember that in General Drewienkiewicz's statements, he

15 says that soldiers were not seen. Then it was challenged here that the

16 verifiers could talk to these prisoners and --

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Question, please.

18 MR. NICE: I have to observe, of course, that before it leaves the

19 screen, probably the critical question for the accused is the one he's

20 already put in leading form, just going off towards the top of the

21 page: "Do you continue to claim." I imagine that's what this is all

22 about, but I'm not quite sure what detail the witness is actually giving

23 of this or ever did.

24 I understand we're well into the sixth hour of re-examination.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm finishing right now. I'm just

Page 44495

1 going to read a quotation and then I'm going to put a question to General

2 Delic.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. So at the end of page 6 in the Serbian language, the ERN number

5 is 03054577, he says: "The verifier, Ian Henry Roberts, he says they took

6 us to the spot and showed it to us quite openly. It seemed that the dead

7 people were there where they had fallen dead. I remember that about six

8 soldiers of the KLA were taken prisoner. They were still on the spot and

9 they allowed us access to those soldiers. We talked to them. We took

10 their details. We even took pictures of them. One of the soldiers was

11 wounded, and I think that later on he passed away. After a while, I think

12 that the rest were released. I remember that we arrived early in the

13 morning. The fighting took place the previous night. My impression was

14 that members of the military and of the MUP --"

15 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Milosevic please be asked to slow down

16 for the interpreter.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you must put a question. I can't

18 allow you to continue quoting from a passage.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. So I read out a quotation to you from the statement of a member of

21 the Verification Mission called Ian Henry Roberts, who was there on the

22 spot and who says that they had access to prisoners, they talked to them,

23 they took their details. Does this, General, corroborate everything that

24 you asserted here during the cross-examination in this regard?

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you are not a professionally

Page 44496

1 trained advocate, and I don't know if that explains why you're not able to

2 put questions without putting them in a leading manner. That's plainly

3 leading.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, if a quotation from a

5 statement made by the Verification Mission is leading, then my question is

6 leading too.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: I tell you what you must do. You must cite that

8 in your closing address or put it in your brief.

9 MR. NICE: Your Honours, first indeed it has to become evidence,

10 and it can't really become evidence in this way through what is

11 re-examination. However, since the name has been mentioned, and to tidy

12 up the transcript at this stage, whatever happens to the statement of the

13 man concerned, it's almost certainly not Ian Henry Roberts, but Ian Robert

14 Hendrie, who the Chamber will remember is the witness who took the

15 photographs at Racak, amongst other things.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: I thought Mr. Milosevic was quoting from the

17 evidence.

18 MR. NICE: No. He was quoting from a statement. But he has

19 described it as the statement of someone called Ian Henry Roberts, but I'm

20 pretty sure it's Ian Robert Hendrie, and we've heard him as a witness.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, do you have a question, a question

23 that will be permissible, that satisfies our Rules of Procedure? If you

24 don't, let's move on.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 44497

1 Q. General, what about the members of the MUP and the army? Did they

2 treat the dead as soldiers, not as terrorists, as far as this event is

3 concerned?

4 A. This is a well-known principle which I think is observed in any

5 army. As long as a man has a rifle and is fighting, he's the enemy. When

6 he throws his rifle away, he becomes a prisoner. And when he's wounded,

7 he's a wounded person. And once he is dead, he is a dead person who

8 should be given all honours. And that is how my soldiers treated the dead

9 enemy.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Milosevic please slow down.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, the interpreters are asking you to

12 slow down. And I'm now taking note, Mr. Milosevic, of the time you have

13 spent in re-examination. And I'm going to consult my colleagues as to how

14 much more time you should be given.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't need more than one minute.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see. You're going to end now. Very well.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Ian Hendrie says: "Soldiers of the army of Yugoslavia treated the

19 KLA dead with respect, and it seemed that they viewed them as soldiers,

20 not terrorists or guerrillas. I also remember that the commander of the

21 forces," that's you, right, "made an effort to show us everything."

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What I demand, Mr. Robinson, is to

23 look at this statement. I read the Serbian version, but I have it in

24 English too, and it has all kinds of signatures on it. I want that to be

25 admitted, because it was challenged during the cross-examination that

Page 44498

1 there were any conversations between the members of the Verification

2 Mission and the KLA prisoners, although video footage was shown. And this

3 is confirmation given by a KVM member who personally talked to them, who

4 took pictures of them, took their details, and said all of that in his

5 statement and signed that statement, at that. So I would like all of that

6 to be admitted in evidence.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see. Mr. Kay?

9 MR. KAY: I've been taken by surprise by this, without any notice

10 of the application that was going to be made.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Before you continue, as far as I remember, the

12 witness has not answered any question on this.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: He's been a witness already and hasn't been asked.

14 This witness hasn't. But the statement is of a person who has already

15 given evidence. This statement is of a person who has already given

16 evidence in the trial and wasn't asked about it. Now, I'd like to know

17 the legal basis for this statement now coming in, and that's what I was

18 hoping that Mr. Kay could assist us with, because I can't think of it at

19 the moment.

20 MR. KAY: I was trying to find the statement so that we could look

21 at it and have a look and see what its terms were, which may be of

22 interest. It may be a document that's agreed to go in with the

23 Prosecution. I don't know. It just comes in as a document. We've got to

24 have a look at it and see what it actually says, I think.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: There are rules. There are ways of admitting

Page 44499

1 written statements, and that's not been applied in relation to this

2 statement, as far as I can see. And the opportunity was there to ask

3 these questions when the witness gave evidence in the first place. So I

4 don't see a legal basis at the moment for it, although it can no doubt

5 happen by asking to bring the witness back or asking to present the

6 statement in a form that complies with the Rules.

7 MR. KAY: The other way, of course, is by agreement, which may be

8 the case here, as it was a Prosecution witness statement. If it's not

9 just being relied upon by one party under the legal mechanisms, which is

10 what was going through my mind, it being a Prosecution witness.

11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not hear the first part of

12 what the speaker said.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is a Prosecution witness

14 statement.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we know it's a Prosecution witness

16 statement. Yes.

17 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nice --

18 JUDGE BONOMY: I'd like to ask --

19 JUDGE KWON: We just admitted three statements which was put to

20 this witness by the Prosecution. I don't remember the names. What would

21 be the base for admitting it, for you or for you to tender it?

22 MR. NICE: I can't myself remember the names. I can't remember

23 the names.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Nice, please.

25 MR. NICE: I'm afraid I can't remember those statements at the

Page 44500












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13 English transcripts.













Page 44501

1 moment and I'll have to look into it.

2 But there's a separate issue, and that is that circumstances in

3 which you can admit statements in re-examination, and I respectfully adopt

4 His Honour Judge Bonomy's point that there doesn't seem to be a mechanism

5 that would allow for the production of this kind of statement at this

6 stage and in this way.

7 Before we move on, however, Ian Hendrie made a statement which was

8 presented under 92 bis. It's Exhibit 214. We're trying to see whether

9 that's the statement that is referred to. Because if it is, then that's

10 the end of the matter.

11 JUDGE KWON: That's only about the picture in writing.

12 MR. NICE: That was my guess. He came and he gave evidence. But

13 if that statement doesn't cover it, then I'll need to have a look at the

14 statement myself.

15 I'll also need to review the precise scope of examination-in-chief

16 and cross-examination, directed as I think it was at General

17 Drewienkiewicz rather than at the others, but I'm not sure. And that his

18 answers, rather than the answers of others, but I'm not sure.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Two matters arise. I think the statements that

20 Judge Kwon is referring to were statements that weren't taken for the

21 purposes of this trial, whereas the statement that we're looking at just

22 now is a statement that was taken for the purpose of the trial.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE BONOMY: The second point is the one Mr. Kay makes. If this

25 is a Prosecution statement, then there may be a basis for agreeing that it

Page 44502

1 should be admitted.

2 MR. NICE: There may be a basis for admitting it and it can be

3 served, because no doubt it's the accused's desire to use the procedures

4 of the Court under 89(F) or --

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

6 MR. NICE: [Previous translations continues] ... to accord with

7 our practices. But until I'm given a chance, and haven't so far, to

8 examine this -- that's no criticism of the Chamber, of course. I'm

9 referring to the circumstances and the manner of re-examination. Until

10 I'm given a chance to look into it, I can't make a further position. But

11 I'll do whatever I can to cooperate.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll have to consider the matter.

13 Mr. Milosevic, you wanted to say something?

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. Legal grounds are being

15 questioned here. I'm leaving aside the fact that obviously what is the

16 truth is playing second fiddle to what procedure is supposed to be. But

17 what is being brought into question is General Delic's statement, namely,

18 that the verifiers talked to the prisoners. Prisoners were seen in the

19 video footage, but what was claimed was that it could not be seen that

20 they were talking to the verifiers. But what we have here now is a

21 statement of one of the verifiers, who confirms not only to have talked to

22 the prisoners, but also he said that he took his -- took their details,

23 took their pictures, et cetera.

24 So this completely refutes what had been said, and I believe that

25 that is sufficient grounds for admitting that into evidence. The

Page 44503

1 statement was given in the year 2000 by a British verifier, the member of

2 a Verification Mission. You have it here in English.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: That's like saying just because the Prosecution

4 present a statement, then it must be true and reliable. What a ridiculous

5 proposition to make. And, Mr. Milosevic, you fail to appreciate what the

6 basic rules are in the presentation of evidence.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think so too.

8 JUDGE BONOMY: You pick and choose your way through the statements

9 and say: Well, if I like this one, it must be true and therefore it must

10 be admissible.

11 We can't proceed in that way.

12 MR. KAY: It sounds to me very much like a 92 bis application that

13 we have here, and maybe we can attend to that and file it ourselves as a

14 way of resolving the issue, unless the Prosecution wish to agree it, which

15 would save a bit of paperwork.

16 JUDGE KWON: A certain passage of the statement was put to the

17 witness, and the witness answered affirmatively. Is that not enough for

18 the accused?

19 MR. KAY: I don't know. But he obviously wants the statement in

20 for its entirety. We'll have to see how far it fits with 92 bis in terms

21 of cumulative evidence.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Admitted into evidence? What I ask

23 to be admitted is what will confirm what General Delic says and challenge

24 what Mr. Nice said. If necessary, I'm going to read out the whole thing

25 in English, what it says here in this statement. I read it to the

Page 44504

1 witness. The witness confirmed that that's the way it was. He was there

2 on the spot.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: We have it under consideration, Mr. Milosevic,

4 and we'll give our decision shortly.

5 MR. KAY: Can I raise one matter as the re-examination was ending?

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just finish off with one

7 question for General Delic?

8 MR. KAY: The matter is this: It's been very important to the

9 accused's re-examination, the issue of the location of Lord Ashdown and

10 whether matters should have been put by him in cross-examination

11 concerning the visibility from Gegaj and a more detailed challenged to

12 Lord Ashdown's position mounted. From my recollection of Lord Ashdown's

13 first statement, i.e., the statement disclosed for the proceedings, I

14 don't believe that Gegaj was mentioned as his place. The first mention of

15 Gegaj comes about in his direct examination, his evidence in chief, when

16 he mentions the place and he spells the name out for those listening. So

17 the accused would not have been in a position to have mounted the kind of

18 challenge in relation to the issue that he has had to mount in his own

19 case. And in my submission, that has to be borne in mind and is a

20 significant feature of the disclosure of all parties in this case relating

21 to the evidence that they propose to call.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Because it was not mentioned, you say, in his

23 first statement?

24 MR. KAY: Yes.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: It was first mentioned during his

Page 44505

1 examination-in-chief?

2 MR. KAY: He gave a description of events, but not a mention of

3 the location, nor map coordinates, nor any of the issues that have come

4 about in this trial.

5 There was another feature of his evidence that in fact when he was

6 being originally called by the Prosecution, Mr. Nice was going to deal

7 with one matter only, and that was because Lord Ashdown's time was

8 pressing, and that was to do with the menu and the Tudjman dinner. But

9 somehow, we seamlessly moved from the menu and the Tudjman dinner into the

10 full extent of his evidence, and he was available until lunch-time on the

11 second day. He only gave evidence just over half a day. And the accused

12 had to put his case in a very brief period of time and was reminded that

13 time was brief, and he had to get on with matters, which again may have

14 obviously -- would have affected the kinds of questions that he had to

15 deal with.

16 JUDGE KWON: That statement was admitted?

17 MR. KAY: Only one statement was admitted. There was a statement,

18 which is Exhibit 81, which is a supplementary. The first page of that

19 statement refers to an earlier interview, and I'm having difficulty

20 finding that earlier interview and what manner of beast it was, what sort

21 of disclosure document it was. And maybe the Prosecution can assist on

22 that. But the exhibited statement is not the full statement. It was

23 merely a clarification statement.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you for that, Mr. Kay.

25 MR. NICE: Your Honour, if that has concluded the re-examination,

Page 44506

1 there are some procedural issues that arise before the timetable for

2 General Delic can be concluded.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you have concluded your

4 re-examination?

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wish to ask one more question,

6 Mr. Delic, with regard to a fact that he mentioned -- or rather he

7 mentioned it and Mr. Nice mentioned it, that in 2002, the witness was

8 engaged by Mr. Nice to establish a KLA crime. And in that respect, I have

9 a question and want to say: Does that mean that when they engaged you,

10 General, they had confidence in you and trusted you and they had no piece

11 of information that would bring into question your credibility for the

12 job?

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: You can't ask that. That is so leading. Thank

14 you, Mr. Milosevic, for your re-examination, and thank you, Mr. Delic.

15 MR. NICE: The procedural issue --

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: We may have -- you're not to leave, of course.

17 We have matters which may impinge ...

18 MR. NICE: Can I address you in private session, and indeed in the

19 absence of the witness? Because some of the matters don't concern him or

20 aren't available to him.

21 MR. KAY: Before we go into private session, let's just resolve

22 one matter out of the way concerning the Hendrie statement. It is in

23 evidence already. Ms. Higgins has found it in Exhibit 214, the second

24 statement, page 6 in the English, paragraph 35.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much for that, Mr. Kay. That

Page 44507

1 settles that.

2 Thank you for your evidence, but you are not to leave the

3 building. You may leave the courtroom now.

4 [The witness stands down]

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Private session, yes.

6 MR. NICE: Some of it can be done in public session, if the

7 Chamber would like, but I know that there's -- that the maximum amount

8 should be dealt with in public session.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, very well. And then we move to private

10 session.

11 MR. NICE: And as to public session, in light of the additional

12 material provided by the accused that I imagine he's going to want

13 exhibited, that's the maps and so on, in due course, I would seek to ask

14 further questions of this witness, but I'm not in a position to do that

15 immediately for reasons that I explained earlier today in private session.

16 But given the way in which this issue has developed, the Chamber might

17 think it would be desirable for the full potential evidential position of

18 the Prosecution to be explored with this witness rather than simply to be

19 left hanging.

20 The second -- so that's one point.

21 The second point, which I can deal with partly in public session

22 and then I'll have to move to private session relates to a public filing

23 by the Prosecution dated the 24th of August, the application for further

24 action in relation to previous Rule 54 bis applications. The Chamber will

25 recall that that application was based on the evidenced ease with which

Page 44508












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13 English transcripts.













Page 44509

1 this witness had been able to find a range of documents that had been

2 denied to the Prosecution. And the Court was urged to consider amending

3 and expanding on its earlier orders, with particular regard to a schedule

4 that was attached, detailing a range of documents that it might think it

5 now appropriate to order or a further order to be produced. And indeed,

6 the application focussed on documents that had been the subject not only

7 of questions by the Prosecution but also questions by the Court, in

8 particular, for example, issues in respect of -- or documents that might

9 reveal the position about the joint command and documents that might

10 reveal the full picture about Racak.

11 If we can now go into, with Your Honours' leave, private session.

12 [Private session]

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 44510

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 44511

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 44512

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 44513

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 44514

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 [Open session]


12 MR. KAY: One matter of clarity. There were two documents put to

13 General Delic during his testimony which involved printouts of the map

14 from the video archives of the Tribunal. The Court may recollect that we

15 produced those on the previous time that he was questioned, and Mr. Nice

16 used them at that point, as well as with the text that had accompanied

17 that part of the proceedings. In our submission, these should be made as

18 exhibits, out of clarity, so that it is able to track what exactly was

19 being put within the proceedings.


21 MR. KAY: Yes. It's two documents. If they could be tab 1 and

22 tab 2.

23 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D311, tab 1 and tab 2.

24 MR. KAY: Thank you.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: I should say that Mr. Delic was consulted and --

Page 44515

1 let Mr. Delic be brought in.

2 MR. NICE: Your Honours, just before he comes in, I realise there

3 was one other particular document I thought that I should refer to before

4 the break. It's the rules of service of the VJ. You'll recall that he

5 was asked questions about it, and it's clearly the accused's case that the

6 legality of deployment of the army before the declaration of state of war

7 is dependent on the legality of that document.

8 Now, its legality or not, its legality, its force had been

9 challenged. It's been referred to off and on in the evidence, as LiveNote

10 shows. So far we haven't, and I've asked Mr. Kay for his assistance,

11 neither of us can find it in our records as a produced exhibit. It only

12 features as to its terms, so far as we know, in the thesis of this

13 witness. And so we have a view on its constitutional position, which

14 we've expressed in cross-examination, but it would be helpful if he's

15 relying on that document, if he can provide us with a copy of it, and

16 indeed of its legal source, or the source from which it derives, if it

17 does, its authority.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: And if it hasn't been produced as an exhibit,

19 then --

20 MR. NICE: It plainly should become an exhibit so that we can see

21 its terms. I read the terms simply from the thesis, but I haven't, I

22 think, seen the whole document. I'm grateful.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: The delay is explained by the fact that the

24 witness who was scheduled to testify after Mr. Delic was being brought in.

25 But now we have to have Mr. Delic in.

Page 44516












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Page 44517

1 If there's a problem finding Mr. Delic, then it might be as well

2 to bring in Mr. Janicevic. Because Mr. Delic would be interposed for five

3 minutes, for the purposes that we have in mind.

4 THE INTERPRETER: We can't hear Mr. Milosevic.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: We're not getting any translation.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My microphone wasn't switched on.

7 The family name Janicejevic is well known in Serbia, but the other family

8 name, Janicevic, is also rather common. This witness is Janicevic, not

9 Janicejevic.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm not sure if it's my pronunciation you were

11 correcting, but if it is, then I accept that.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No. I heard the interpreters say

13 Janicejevic. It's a common mistake because Janicejevic is actually more

14 comment as a family name. Anyway, I wanted to make sure that everybody

15 knows this witness's name is Janicevic.

16 [The witness takes the stand]

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: General Delic, I understand that you're in

18 agreement with the proposal that you stay on until next week, Wednesday,

19 and indeed perhaps on Thursday as well, and maybe Friday. Hopefully not.

20 Can you just confirm this for me?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If necessary, I will stay until next

22 Wednesday or Thursday.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: I commend you for your public spiritedness,

24 Mr. Delic.

25 Mr. Nice, with regard to the matters that may be subject to

Page 44518

1 cross-examination by you, at this stage we can say that you'll be allowed

2 to cross-examine on the VJ personnel files. The other matters in respect

3 of which you have applied will be considered by the Chamber, and we'll

4 give a decision shortly.

5 MR. NICE: I'm grateful.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Delic, you may now leave. The attractions of

7 The Hague are many, so I know your time will be well spent.

8 [The witness withdrew]

9 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

10 JUDGE KWON: While we are waiting, Mr. Milosevic, you have Rules

11 of Service with you?

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't have the Rules with me, but

14 I heard Mr. Delic saying to Mr. Nice yesterday, I believe, that he had

15 sent him the Rules of Service two years ago. He sent his own copy that he

16 had in his safe. So I don't have one, but I can get one.

17 [The witness entered court]

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.


20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

22 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.

24 Mr. Milosevic, you may begin.

25 Examined by Mr. Milosevic:

Page 44519

1 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Janicevic, where were you born and when?

2 A. 18th August 1951, in Berevce village, Strpce municipality, in

3 Kosovo and Metohija.

4 Q. Were you constantly residing in Kosovo and Metohija?

5 A. From birth to 1999, I lived in Kosovo and Metohija.

6 Q. Did you complete your education and vocational training in Kosovo

7 and Metohija as well?

8 A. I finished primary school in Strpce high school in Kamenica, and

9 the law school in Pristina.

10 Q. What jobs did you do?

11 A. After I finished the school of the interior in Kamenica, I worked

12 on a trial period until the 31st of December, 1971. From the 1st of

13 January, 1972 until the 1st of July, 1992, I was a member of the SUP of

14 Urosevac. I was a policeman then, inspector, commander of station, deputy

15 commander of station, then again inspector. And from the 1st of July,

16 1992 I was elected at local elections for president of municipality in

17 Strpce. I occupied that post until the 15th of June, 1995, when I was

18 transferred again to the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of

19 Serbia and appointed chief of SUP Urosevac.

20 I remained in that office until the 15th of April, 1999, and from

21 then on, until my retirement, I remained chief of Pristina SUP.

22 Q. Where do you live now?

23 A. I'm currently a displaced person living in Nis. My family is in

24 Strpce, in Kosovo and Metohija.

25 Q. Are you still in active service in the police force or are you

Page 44520

1 retired?

2 A. I retired on the 31st of December, 2004.

3 Q. In what rank?

4 A. Colonel.

5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Janicevic. Tell me: Since you were born in

6 Kosovo, you lived and worked there almost all your life, tell me as

7 briefly as you can about the inter-ethnic relations in Kosovo, especially

8 in the municipality where you lived. I'm particularly interested in the

9 period before the constitution of 1974 was adopted, and afterwards.

10 A. Inter-ethnic relations in the entire Kosovo and Metohija,

11 especially in my municipality, until 1968, until the first amendments to

12 the constitution of the SFRY, were characterised by tolerance, and I can

13 say they were good.

14 After the amendments of 1968, and especially after the 1974

15 constitution was adopted, inter-ethnic relations starting deteriorating

16 rapidly. All sorts of pressures began to be exerted by the province

17 leadership that became independent then.

18 Q. What was this deterioration like, and what were the tensions?

19 A. They were expressed in the form of ethnic slurs, damage to farms,

20 forests, theft of cattle, and other property and non-property-related

21 forms of pressure.

22 Q. What you are describing now, was it characterised by some sort of

23 discrimination against Serbs in Kosovo and Metohija? And do you have any

24 knowledge about that discrimination in that period?

25 A. Of course it was discriminatory. First of all, in the area of

Page 44521

1 employment, proportionate representation principles were applied. If

2 there were ten vacancies, one or two Serbs would be employed. In some

3 cases, the ratio was 49:1. The criteria linked to actual skills were not

4 observed, especially with regard to Serbs.

5 Q. What was the situation in areas where Serbs were a majority?

6 A. The principle of proportionate representation was applied

7 everywhere, where Serbs were a majority, as well as in other areas.

8 Q. What was the ethnic composition in Strpce?

9 A. 73 to 27, in favour of Serbs.

10 Q. So there was a large majority of Serbs, and the ratio of

11 employment was still 1:7, 1:8.

12 Q. Well, in the Assembly -- I'm not asking you about the Municipal

13 Assembly. I'm asking you about the whole municipality as a territory.

14 A. Well, employment was guided by ethnic proportions. A

15 proportionate number of Albanians were employed in all public services and

16 institutions.

17 Q. You mean health, education, government?

18 A. Right.

19 Q. At the relevant time, were there physical attacks, murders?

20 A. Yes, there were, in addition to ethnic slurs and provocations,

21 there were also physical attacks, rapes. In that period, there were

22 murders as well.

23 There were two typical cases of murder, typical of the

24 entire territory of Kosovo and Metohija. They happened in Vucitrn and

25 Djakovica. Over the period of one month, there were two murders of Serbs

Page 44522

1 on ethnic grounds, purely ethnic grounds.

2 Q. And who was behind all that discrimination, tensions, rapes,

3 murders?

4 A. This violence was backed by nationalist, ethnic-based Albanian

5 parties that were integrated at the time into the leadership of the

6 province.

7 Q. Could we talk about a separatist movement there?

8 A. Precisely.

9 Q. Who were the targets of those separatist forces? Only Serbs or

10 other non-Albanians as well?

11 A. The targets were also Albanians, those Albanians who dared to

12 stand up against that pressure and who tried to protect their Serb and

13 other non-Albanian neighbours.

14 Q. After the 1974 constitution, what attitude did the government of

15 the province take towards such actions by the separatists?

16 A. They were tolerant. In all such cases where Serbs or other

17 non-Albanians were victimised, they were tolerant.

18 Q. Did the government agencies of the province or the Republic of

19 Serbia -- you say the government of the province was tolerant, but did,

20 for instance, the government of the Republic of Serbia try to do anything

21 to protect that segment of the population?

22 A. After the 1974 constitution, the organs of the Republic of Serbia

23 could practically do nothing for the protection of the Serb and other

24 non-Albanian population because the constitution prohibited any

25 interference in the purview of the province. The province had its own

Page 44523

1 assembly, its Executive Council, that is, the government, ministries or

2 secretariats, that did all the work.

3 Q. Let's leave Serbs aside for the moment. What was the attitude

4 toward other ethnic communities, the Gorani, Turks, Romas, Turks [as

5 interpreted] and others?

6 A. That treatment was the same as the treatment of Serbs and

7 Montenegrins, practically. They were different in another sense. They

8 were openly assimilated over the past few years.

9 Q. What kind of assimilation?

10 A. In order for assimilation to be possible, in 1968 a law was

11 enacted stipulating that the "ic" suffix was deleted from people's last

12 name. For instance, Muratovic became Murati. So they became Albanised.

13 Q. When you say Muratovic, I suppose that person is a Muslim. But if

14 you delete the suffix "ic" they lose any indication of their Serb origin

15 and become treated as Albanian. Is that what you mean?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. When you say they statistically became Albanians, did members of

18 other ethnic communities, the Gorani, Roma, Turks and others, were they

19 statistically translated, so to speak, into Albanians, in official

20 documents?

21 A. Of course. For instance, in the census of 1981, when the

22 Albanians turned out for the regular census the last time, they would

23 leave the column "nationality" empty, or they would pencil it in. The

24 answer would be deleted and everybody would be registered as Albanian.

25 Another example of pure assimilation was the opening of a school

Page 44524

1 in the Albanian language in the Musnikovo village. That is near Strpce.

2 Musnikovo is populated by Albanians and Serbs -- by Muslims and Serbs.

3 Their mother tongue is Serb. They don't know Albanian, and still the

4 school was in Albanian.

5 After 1974, in order for people to get a job, they would have to

6 write in their applications that they were Albanians, in 99 per cent of

7 cases. For somebody to apply for a job and to get that job, they would

8 have to fulfil the requirement of knowing Albanian.

9 There are hundreds and thousands of similar examples.

10 Q. Mr. Janicevic, I hope that you have in front of you these binders

11 with documents that accompany your testimony.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So they were submitted to you.

14 Could you open number 1. And now I'm asking you the following

15 question: Is this a document of the Leskovac municipality dated the

16 18th of March, 2005?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Could you please just read the first paragraph. We don't have to

19 read out the names, all of them. What does it say here?

20 A. It says here: "With reference to your request number 204-82-05 of

21 the 15th of March, 2005, and pursuant to Article 61 of the law on

22 registers of births, deaths, and marriages --"

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hope that the interpreters have a

24 translation into English.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Births, deaths and marriages,

Page 44525

1 having inspected the registers which were restored, i.e., reconstructed in

2 1951, we notice that the following Serbs from Zaskok MK and Gatnje MK have

3 been registered as being Siptar ethnicity, of Siptar ethnicity."

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. All right. So when the registers in Leskovac were looked at

6 again, this list of names was provided, obviously all of these names are

7 Serb names?

8 A. Let me just explain. The registers are in Leskovac at the

9 moment. Otherwise, they are from Urosevac, or rather, from the village of

10 Zaskok and the local commune of Gatnje, which is in the territory of the

11 municipality of Urosevac.

12 Q. I understand that. How did this happen? Do you have any

13 explanation? Zaskok and Gatnje are hamlets. Are they predominantly Serb

14 or Albanian?

15 A. Mixed population, but the majority population is Albanian.

16 Q. Do you have any explanation how come this happened? We can see

17 the names and surnames of these persons and the names of their fathers.

18 How were these persons registered as Albanians?

19 A. The only explanation can be that even at that time, the Albanians

20 were trying to act in an inappropriate manner in their wish to increase

21 the Albanian population in Kosovo. I don't have this kind of document

22 here now, but in practically all the municipalities in Kosovo and

23 Metohija, even church land was registered as being the property of the

24 Islamic religious community, or simply as village land. There is no other

25 explanation.

Page 44526

1 I'm sorry. If this were a mistake, a mere error, a single one

2 would be made, not in 30 or 50 places.

3 Q. These are 25 names from these two villages only?

4 A. Yes.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I'm asking for this to

6 be admitted into evidence. This is an official document of the municipal

7 administration for general affairs in Leskovac.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, it's admitted.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Signed and stamped.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: A number for the binder.

11 THE REGISTRAR: D312, for two binders.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is it two or four binders? Four binders, but we

13 only have two.

14 Proceed, Mr. Milosevic.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Can I ask a question? Your evidence so far has

16 been that until 1968, everything was fine. How do you account for these

17 changes being made in the 1960s and 1950s to the register?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't say everything was fine

19 until 1968. There were cases of such attempts against Serbs and

20 Montenegrins and their integrity, but they were much rarer before 1968.

21 JUDGE BONOMY: Your answer was: "Inter-ethnic --"

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Judge Bonomy, please.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: Your answer was that: "Inter-ethnic relations in

24 the entire Kosovo and Metohija, especially in your municipality, until

25 1968, were characterised by tolerance, and I can say they were good."

Page 44527

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that's what I'm saying now

2 too.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But this document has nothing to do

5 with inter-ethnic relations. This document has to do with administration.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: So what's the point you're making about

7 administration?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I said a few minutes ago that

9 nationalist separatists got into the state structures in Kosovo and

10 Metohija, government agencies, and that through persons employed there,

11 they tried in a way to attain their objectives and to carry out their

12 ideas. That's what they did and that's what they're doing.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: And that was happening in 1957?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: And indeed 1954. Thank you.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 MR. NICE: I don't know if the Court is rising at its normal time

18 today. There's just literally 30 seconds I want to mention in private

19 session, nothing to do with this witness.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Another question, Mr. Milosevic.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Mr. Janicevic, we've just seen this document. What about these

23 persons mentioned here and what was established when the registers were

24 being re-established? Do these persons know that somebody had registered

25 them as Albanians?

Page 44528

1 A. No. Until the 1960s, no one had any idea of them being registered

2 as Albanians in the registers.

3 Q. That's because the registers were kept by Albanians; right?

4 A. For the most part, yes.

5 Q. Thank you. These tensions and what was going on in terms of what

6 you've described so far, did all of this affect the Serbs in Kosovo and

7 Metohija? Did they leave Kosovo and Metohija because of that? Or, to the

8 best of your knowledge, when did Serbs start moving out at a faster rate

9 or a more intensive rate from Kosovo and Metohija?

10 A. Serbs and Montenegrins started leaving Kosovo and Metohija at a

11 more intensive pace as of 1974, when the new constitution was adopted.

12 After the hostile demonstrations in 1981, the numbers only went up.

13 Q. Before you tell me something about these demonstrations, were

14 Turks moving out, Muslims, Gorani, and others?

15 A. All non-Albanians were moving out, all of those who felt

16 threatened by their Albanian neighbours. The Gorani were leaving and

17 going to Turkey, then the Turks, the Romany, they were leaving too.

18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Janicevic.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, you said one more

20 question, so I put that additional question.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Milosevic.

22 Mr. Nice.

23 MR. NICE: Possibly in private session, if you'd be so good.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Private session.

25 MR. NICE: Nothing to do with this witness, but he can stay. I'm

Page 44529

1 not concerned -- well --

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: You won't be very long?

3 MR. NICE: No. 30 seconds.

4 [Private session]

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Page 44530

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19 [Open session]

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll adjourn now until tomorrow, 9.00 a.m.

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,

22 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 22nd day of

23 September, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.