Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 45416

1 Wednesday, 19 October 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you are to continue with your

7 examination.


9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 Examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]

11 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, General.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Could the microphone please be adjusted.

13 Interpreters note, we cannot hear the speaker. The other microphones in

14 the courtroom are on. We can hear other background noise.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. He said that on the 27th of April, 1999, five Serb policemen were

17 killed and, as he says, the Serb forces attacked the village of Dobros

18 where some villagers were killed. After that, the villagers fled in the

19 direction of Meja. And as he says, the Serb forces stopped the convoy on

20 the road to Meja, and then --

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, who said?

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's what Witness Beqe Beqaj said.

23 MR. ROBINSON: Well, we didn't hear that.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Beqe Beqaj. Yesterday I even gave

25 the transcript pages where he was speaking but then the hearing was

Page 45417

1 adjourned because our time was up yesterday.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. So they separated 24 men who they sent to Hasanaj dolina, and then

4 they singled out 13 of them and the police told them that they were guilty

5 of the killing of Serb policemen and the witness said that no one ever saw

6 these people again. Do you know anything about that?

7 A. I don't know anything about that, or quite simply I have no

8 knowledge of something like that having happened. Had something like that

9 happened, I certainly, as commander of the garrison and commanding officer

10 in Djakovica, would have known about it.

11 Q. General, Nika Peraj testified here. His transcript is rather

12 lengthy. I'm going to put a few questions to you on the basis of his

13 statement, because from his testimony and his statement, it is evident

14 that he was a member of your brigade, that he was one of your subordinate

15 officers. Do you know who Nika Peraj was?

16 A. Yes. Nik Peraj was captain first class in the 52nd Brigade, whose

17 commander I was. So he was subordinated to me. Not directly to me but to

18 my Chief of Staff or, rather, in the chain of command he ranked third down

19 the line of subordination. He came in December 1998 from Pristina.

20 That's when he was transferred.

21 Q. All right. He says that he was in the Artillery Rocket Brigade in

22 Djakovica. That is paragraph 4 of his statement. That he was in charge

23 of security of the command of the brigade that was in the Djakovica

24 barracks, and he trained soldiers in the field of security and took care

25 that they did their duties in relation to the security of the command.

Page 45418

1 Was that it briefly?

2 A. Yes. In Djakovica there were two barracks, Metohija and Devet

3 Jugovica. The command of my brigade was in the Metohija barracks and that

4 was his task. This is a task that corresponds to an officer of his rank

5 and his position. That is to say that he got the duty that any officer

6 with that kind of training and rank would have got.

7 Q. All right. Here in tab 4 and 4A you can find documents that

8 pertain to him precisely and what he did. So please look at tab 4. This

9 has to do have -- about the functioning of perimeter security in the

10 Metohija barracks and Captain Peraj Nika is responsible for that. You

11 signed that.

12 A. Yes. It's my order. I signed it, and I -- on the 24th of May,

13 1999, and in this way I regulated his duties.

14 Q. And the other documents in this same tab has to do with the order

15 issued by you to commanders of artillery battalions, and in paragraph 5 it

16 says that on behalf of the command brigade, Captain First Class Nika Peraj

17 will do this.

18 A. That's right. It was his duty. And that is what he dealt with

19 primarily.

20 Q. All right. So we've established that, your direct relationship

21 with him, the fact he was in your brigade. What does he say in his

22 statement?

23 In paragraph 7, he says that there were paramilitary formations

24 there where the following units were - this is paragraph 7 - Arkan's

25 Tigers, Seselj's White Eagles, and the unit of Franko Simatovic called the

Page 45419

1 Frenkijevci, Frenki's men. Is that correct?

2 A. That's not right at all. There weren't any paramilitary units in

3 Kosovo and Metohija. The only paramilitary formation in Kosovo and

4 Metohija was the KLA.

5 Q. Thank you, General. Further on in paragraph 9 he says MUP and

6 groups from the Territorial Defence launched attacks against civilian

7 targets. Is that true?

8 A. No. The MUP only carried out anti-terrorist actions, always in a

9 situation when it had been attacked before that or provoked.

10 Q. In paragraph 10 of his statement he refers to you personally. He

11 says as soon as NATO started bombing, smaller groups started coming in,

12 five to ten people, usually those who were interested in looting, and they

13 joined the army of Yugoslavia. Many of them looked unkempt and were

14 engaged in crime beforehand. They had been recruited from prisons. One

15 night, a group of people came from Russia, one of which was a doctor.

16 They were sent to Kosare after Commander Milos Djosan refused their

17 request to stay in Djakovica saying that he would not allow them to loot.

18 I think that there was a total of 50 such persons. The Territorial

19 Defence of the municipality they came from was paying them, and the

20 Ministry of Defence financed in return the Territorial Defence units.

21 What is correct out of all of this?

22 A. None of this is correct. The only correct thing is that I was

23 commander of that brigade.

24 Q. Thank you, General. In paragraph 11 it says there were Albanians

25 and Roma who were loyal to Serbia. Their commander was Nikola Micunovic,

Page 45420

1 nicknamed Dragan, a major.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Milosevic please read slower. We

3 don't have the text, interpreters note.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, the interpreter is asking you to

5 read more slowly. They do not have the text.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation].

8 Q. He is talking about Micunovic as commander of some unit of the

9 Kosovo Albanians and Roma. Also members of Frenki's unit that I'm going

10 to talk about later. For a while they were reservists under Micunovic's

11 command, and then they joined with Frenki's men.

12 What is true out of all of this?

13 A. Nothing is true. Micunovic was commander of the 13th Military

14 Territorial Detachment from the military department of Pec. He was not my

15 subordinate in any way, but in peacetime one of his depots was in the

16 barracks where I was commander, and there was no other subordination

17 between him and me. And there was no need for him to report to me or

18 could I command him.

19 Q. Is any of this correct, that under his command there were some -

20 how should I put this? - some persons who later become Frenki's men?

21 A. That's not true absolutely. There were no paramilitaries there,

22 no Frenki's men. Under his command were the personnel of the 113th

23 Military Territorial Detachment. These were primarily Serbs and a few

24 Albanians from the area around Djakovica and Djakovica itself.

25 Q. All right. Now, he explains or, rather, presents an alleged fact

Page 45421

1 here in paragraph 13. He says: "One brigade of Republika Srpska that

2 numbered up to 1.000 men arrived on the eve of the NATO bombing."

3 MR. NICE: We would be assisted by having this on the overhead

4 projector. It was an existing exhibit in the case; it's in the 92 bis

5 package. I do have one copy here. The accused should really make

6 exhibits available, even if they are formal exhibits, so that the Chamber

7 can follow them in written form. It's up to the Chamber, but if you want

8 to see it on the overhead projector we could probably make ours available.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I was thinking the same thing.

10 Mr. Milosevic, do you have copies for us?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, I don't, Mr. Robinson. My

12 assumption was that precisely for the reasons mentioned by Mr. Nice

13 because this had been exhibited there was no need to prepare copies of his

14 statement in particular.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Even if it is an existing exhibit, Mr. Milosevic,

16 we still have to find it, and that is your -- that's your duty.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hope, then, that Mr. Nice could be

18 so kind as to provide his copy, because otherwise I won't be able to put

19 questions. This is my very own marked copy and I want to check this out,

20 I want to see what is correct, what is not correct. I assume that it will

21 not present too great a difficulty to Mr. Nice to provide his own copy for

22 the ELMO.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please proceed --

24 MR. NICE: I am in the circumstances in possession of the

25 document. I can lay it on the overhead projector. But the accused knows

Page 45422

1 perfectly well that this has got to be dealt with by him. He can rely on

2 me to help whenever I'm in a position to do so, of course, but he really

3 should obey by -- play by the rules.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Well, we are grateful to you, Mr. Nice, for

5 letting us have a copy of that.

6 Mr. Milosevic, in future, and I think you know this, you must

7 prepare copies of exhibits for the Court, even if they're already

8 exhibited.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I did not even put this on the

10 exhibit list. I'm asking the witness about the testimony of a previous

11 witness who testified about a great many things and who was his

12 subordinate officer. So I'm putting questions to him on the basis of

13 which you should be able to see whether this witness was telling the truth

14 or not, like many other witnesses.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, that is not the procedure that we

16 follow here, and you very well know that. So, in future, I want you to

17 abide by the procedure and have copies prepared for the Court.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Robinson. May I

19 continue now?


21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. So in paragraph 13 he says that a brigade from Republika Srpska

23 had come. He says they were deployed in Rezina, they had insignia on

24 which Republika Srpska was written. Their commander was a lieutenant

25 colonel. First name unknown, last name Vukovic. That brigade arrived in

Page 45423

1 Djakovica in end February, early March, 10 to 20 days before NATO bombing.

2 They had T55 tanks and anti-aircraft artillery which they had probably

3 brought from Republika Srpska. And so on. Is this correct?

4 A. No, it is not. Anyone who knows Djakovica, and he should know

5 Djakovica because he grew up there, Rezina is an area overlooking

6 Djakovica where you cannot hide even a car so as to make it invisible. So

7 there's no shrubbery, no brush, nothing. And to place an armoured brigade

8 in a small area like that is simply impossible.

9 Generally speaking, this man is not qualified. He has not

10 completed a single vocational academy, and it is unreasonable to expect

11 such answers from him.

12 Q. Could you tell him -- could you tell me, was there any kind of

13 unit from Republika Srpska in Djakovica at all, never mind the brigade?

14 A. No, there was no such unit at any time. And I'm sorry that I

15 didn't have time enough to describe the course of my career before the

16 Trial Chamber, because it would clarify this issue as well, and by the

17 leave of the Trial Chamber I would like to do so now.

18 Q. Well, General, regarding your career, what can you tell us that is

19 relevant to this question?

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, how did does this bear on this

21 issue?

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, the relevance to this issue is

23 none, but he is apologising for not having described his career in full

24 yesterday as he should have --

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: He can send us a note after completing his

Page 45424












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13 English transcripts.













Page 45425

1 evidence about the other aspects of his career.

2 I wanted to ask you, General, you say that this man is not

3 qualified and it was unreasonable to expect such answers from him. What

4 qualifications did he lack which would have impacted on the kind of

5 evidence that he gave?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, he did not know where armoured

7 units can or cannot be placed. I'm not saying that Nik Peraj did not

8 distinguish between a car and a tank, but anyone with a military education

9 could ever dream of using Rezina, which is visible as on the palm of your

10 hand from Djakovica to hide an armoured brigade. An armoured brigade has

11 90 tanks, and he mentioned two brigades. So anyone who has the slightest

12 understanding of how and where armoured units are deployed could not say

13 such a thing.

14 Nik Peraj graduated from a teachers' school and became a reserve

15 officer, and that's why he was just a captain at the age of 53, which is

16 very rare in the army.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. Mr. Milosevic, yes.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. General, all I'm interested in are the facts that he mentioned. I

20 asked you if there had been any unit from Republika Srpska.

21 A. No, not single unit from Republika Srpska. There were no units

22 from anywhere except the army of Yugoslavia and the MUP, that is the units

23 that were in the territory of Kosovo and Metohija.

24 Q. In paragraph 15, and I won't read it all, not to waste time, he

25 says: "I saw with my own eyes how the members of that brigade from the RS

Page 45426

1 have meetings in Djosan's office."

2 A. That is absolutely untrue.

3 JUDGE KWON: General Djosan, were there volunteers from

4 Republika Srpska who joined the VJ?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. In my unit, there was

6 one woman, a volunteer. Her name was Dragojanka, and she was in the

7 3rd Artillery Battalion under Commander Pasinovic. I wrote about her in

8 my book. She was a nurse, a native Republika Srpska, and she was placed

9 in a unit of the brigade.

10 JUDGE KWON: Was she the only volunteer from Republika Srpska or

11 were there other volunteers from Republika Srpska?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] She was the only volunteer in my

13 unit.

14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. General, I will skip the part about tanks because I questioned

17 General Delic about it, and he gave quite sufficient explanation. We are

18 not going to waste our time on that.

19 In paragraph 18 he says during the bombing, the military police

20 and part of the staff security of the brigade command were located in a

21 house opposite the barracks in Djakovica, and it was in that house that

22 first discussion was held about carrying out an operation in Meja. Is

23 that correct?

24 A. No, that is not true. Quite simply, such operations - in fact,

25 they're not operations, they are anti-terrorist actions - are not

Page 45427

1 discussed in houses. All such actions followed regular procedure of

2 planning development in staff headquarters which is the only place for

3 such activities. There were no informal agreements, discussions or

4 informal orders outside premises specifically designated for that purpose.

5 Q. Thank you, General. In paragraph 40, I'm going to skip some of

6 them because I don't want to waste too much time on this witness, he

7 says: "In my assessment, there were about 200 paramilitary men in the

8 Djakovica area, most of whom were Arkan's and Seselj's, with about 30 from

9 Frenki's. VJ officers and locals were saying the Frenki's (also known as

10 the Black Hand) were the worst. Members of these groups had rough

11 backgrounds - prison, drug use."

12 And then further on he says where they were quartered, billeted.

13 It says: "Frenki's men were based in a building between the Vllamzini

14 stadium and the gymnasium school on Dimitrije Tucovic Street in

15 Djakovica." He also explains that his former neighbour Bato Dzurdzevic

16 told him about this. He says they stole cars from the citizenry, et

17 cetera.

18 He says: "200 paramilitaries, most of them Arkan's and Seselj's

19 men, 30 or so, Frenki's men." What do you know about this?

20 A. I can only repeat my previous answer. In Djakovica or in all of

21 Kosovo and Metohija, there were no paramilitary units. And when I say "no

22 paramilitary units," that means no Arkan's men, and no Seselj's men, no

23 Frenki's men. This is a product of his imagination. And he must have had

24 some reason for saying this. If that had been true and he had known about

25 it, he had to report it to me as his commander.

Page 45428

1 JUDGE KWON: General, would it be correct, then, if he said there

2 were -- there had been 200 volunteers from Serbia or elsewhere?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't quite hear the last part of

4 your question.

5 JUDGE KWON: Would it be correct for him to say that there had

6 been 200 volunteers in Djakovica area?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A volunteer is a different notion

8 from the notion of paramilitary units. I had volunteers in my own unit.

9 Those were people who were recruited from the reserve force of the army of

10 Yugoslavia, who responded to the call-up of their own free will, who came

11 to us and were deployed in units of the army of Yugoslavia. I had some

12 volunteers in my units. One of them was killed by terrorists.

13 A volunteer is not a paramilitary. It is a patriot who

14 voluntarily responded to the call-up and joined the army. We placed these

15 people in different units, the volunteers, depending on their training,

16 qualifications, and abilities.

17 JUDGE KWON: How many volunteers did you have at that time?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my brigade there were 53

19 volunteers who had been brought from the command of the Pristina Corps by

20 a commander who had brought them together with full accompanying

21 documentation. And depending on what they had done in the army before,

22 they were deployed in various units. Most of those volunteers were later

23 transferred to different units, because anti-aircraft defence units

24 require younger personnel with better eyesight and specific training.

25 Some volunteers were transferred to the 152nd Brigade in the border belt,

Page 45429

1 but they were transferred following regular procedure in the army. So it

2 is improper to confuse the notion of volunteer with the notion of

3 paramilitary. I think it would be a great injustice to those people who

4 served their country.

5 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

6 Proceed, Mr. Milosevic.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, can I just ask one further question on the

8 same subject.

9 We've heard evidence of political parties organising the provision

10 of volunteers. Were you aware of that?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you. Thank you.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. General, let us wrap up this issue that Mr. Kwon brought up

15 regarding volunteers. Apart from the fact that somebody came voluntarily

16 rather than being recruited as part of his military obligation, did the

17 status of such a person differ in any way from any other man in the unit?

18 A. No. Such a person had no special status, no privileges. He had

19 the same duties and obligations as anybody else in the unit.

20 Q. Were there any units made up exclusively of volunteers or would

21 volunteers be scattered across different units depending on their training

22 and qualifications and prior experience?

23 A. They were placed in one unit or another depending on their wartime

24 assignment, and there were no units made up exclusively of volunteers.

25 There were no units that contained even as much as one-third of

Page 45430

1 volunteers.

2 Q. That means that in a platoon of 30 people it was impossible to

3 have ten volunteers among them.

4 A. Correct. It was not possible. And all the commanders were

5 exclusively active-duty commanding officers.

6 Q. In paragraph 35, among other things, he says: "In Pastrik hotel

7 there was a lot of drinking. So Colonel Djosan, who was the commander in

8 Djakovica tried to put an end to it but was not successful. One time

9 Djosan ordered me to put a stop to this drinking bout, but I did not do

10 that. I did not manage, because the people in the hotel were totally

11 drunk, armed and dangerous."

12 A. Indeed, I had issued an order as garrison commander banning

13 alcohol, and there were violations because soldiers from Kosare

14 occasionally came to phone their families as long as the post office

15 operated. There was a hotel but only non-alcoholic beverages were served

16 there.

17 It's not true that I ever asked this man to go and put a stop to

18 some sort of drinking party, because I would have never done that seeing

19 that he is an Albanian, and I would never have put him in such a position.

20 Q. He says that: "Paramilitaries could be distinguished from other

21 units by insignia. There was a sign of White Eagles shown to me by

22 investigator Paolo Pastore Stocchi, and I recognised it as the one I had

23 seen in Meja."

24 A. No, there were no such insignia except insignia of the army, the

25 military police, or the police. Nobody could have worn any other

Page 45431

1 insignia.

2 Q. Now, when he speaks about command and control in paragraph 36, he

3 says: "All armed groups (VJ, MUP, others) were subordinate to the VJ in

4 theory. The other groups were those such as Seselj's and Frenki's men and

5 the Territorial Defence. The paramilitary ones tended not to be

6 responsive to VJ direction, even though the VJ tried; they followed their

7 own agendas. Their main agenda was a Greater Serbia as intended by the

8 politicians who formed them."

9 What is your comment?

10 A. Well, you can see that this is plain fabrication. Words are used

11 that have been thought up by other minds. There were no paramilitaries.

12 Army units were subordinated to army commanders. Police units were

13 subordinated to police commanders. There were no paramilitaries.

14 Q. It says: "The following people attended meetings that were held

15 daily at 800 hours and 1800 hours every day. Momcilo Stanojevic, Meja,

16 Micunovic, head of the military department, Camovic head of DB in

17 Djakovica, Miodrag Adamovic, head of MUP."

18 MR. NICE: Paragraph down Mr. Nort. Paragraph 39.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. So this is an enumeration of the people who attend, and I just

21 reached your name when Mr. Nice intervened. "Milos Djosan, commander of

22 Pristina Corps, and Lazarevic, Jeftovic, Kotur occasionally."

23 A. That's not true. My command, the command of the 52nd Brigade, was

24 located in the Metohija barracks which is the barracks that were not

25 targeted at all and where the Italian contingent of KFOR set up later on.

Page 45432

1 In my barracks we had reporting and briefing that was attended by my

2 subordinates, my subordinate officers, the command, and you can see that

3 from all my regular combat reports and the briefing sessions. In the

4 Devet Jugovica barracks, which was located in quite a different part of

5 town where there was a forward command post, meetings were attended by the

6 commander or, rather, the Chief of Staff usually at the corps and someone

7 from the corps command and I myself as the brigade commander who was

8 there, and if the need arose, officers from certain arms and services of

9 the command of the Pristina Corps.

10 There were no meetings which were attended, especially not regular

11 meetings attended by Camovic. I never saw Camovic at any of these

12 meetings. He would come from -- or, rather, the president of the

13 Djakovica municipality would come from time to time but just when matters

14 relating to the garrison were discussed because I was the garrison

15 commander as well. So that certain questions relating to the garrison and

16 its activities I did cooperate with the president of the municipality and

17 the head of MUP of Djakovica, but nobody else attended the briefings,

18 because briefings are separate meetings and rules govern who can attend

19 and nobody can attend unless there are orders from his superior. Even

20 officers, high-ranking officers, cannot be present unless they are ordered

21 to do so by a superior officer.

22 Q. All right. Fine. But now he goes on to speak at those meetings,

23 and he says in paragraph 40: "Once I had to separate Djosan from

24 Micunovic after a meeting because they were arguing. I do not know what

25 they were arguing over."

Page 45433












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Page 45434

1 So he says he separated you from Micunovic not to come to blows,

2 to stop fighting and arguing. "And on the same occasion. Once Djosan got

3 into the car with me," he goes on to say, "he said that Kovacevic and

4 Micunovic were doing unauthorised things and blaming it on the army.

5 Micunovic's unit from the reserve force at the end of March killed eight

6 civilians in the village of Deva."

7 That's what he says. He says that this was confirmed by Peko

8 Djurdjevic because he was in that same unit.

9 A. That is a complete fabrication. Can you imagine me being in a

10 situation as commander of the garrison fighting an officer who is not even

11 my subordinate or arguing with him? That's absolutely impossible. It

12 would be a violation of military regulations. Had I wanted to do so there

13 would be other ways of dealing with the matter, arresting him for example.

14 But none of this is true. I was never in a car with Nik Peraj. I had my

15 own driver and I had three cars. I used three different cars depending on

16 where I was doing. Why would the captain need me to drive me when I had

17 my own driver soldier who was there to drive me where I wanted to go?

18 Q. Well, what do you know about this assertion of his, what he says

19 here that the soldiers from that reserve unit of Micunovic's at the end of

20 March killed eight civilians in the village of Deva?

21 A. I know nothing about that. I never heard about that. At the

22 briefing session that we had at the forward command post of the corps, I

23 would have to have known that because Micunovic's detachment or unit was

24 subordinated to the forward command post of the Pristina Corps as is

25 provided for by the security schedule.

Page 45435

1 Q. Very well. I'll skip over a few paragraphs. He says in

2 paragraph 41 that you called him from a meeting and said that the unit

3 that was near Ljug Bunar should be moved to Kosare. "I then had to pass

4 this information on to the ARBR operation staff, Major Zdravko Vinter.

5 This unit was part of Djosan's brigade."

6 A. I don't know whether he was referring to my unit.

7 Q. Yes, he was.

8 A. Well, we know the system of command. If I wanted to move a unit,

9 then I would order the commander of the unit to undertake the movement of

10 the unit. That is the system of command and control. I would issue

11 orders to the commanders of the artillery battalions and then the

12 artillery battalions would go down the line and issue orders further down

13 to the subordinate officers. So I couldn't have sent him as a courier to

14 convey my orders. That would be impossible. That is just pure

15 fabrication and doesn't correspond to the truth of the matter at all.

16 Q. In paragraph 45, next please, it says the following: "During the

17 Meja incident, the MUP set up check-points." Was there an incident in

18 Meja at all?

19 A. I don't know of any Meja incident, no. There was an

20 anti-terrorist operation in Meja.

21 Q. All right. Fine. Anyway, the MUP set up check-points because it

22 was a better position to check identification cards and decided who should

23 be allowed to pass by freely. At the check-points, the MUP took away ID

24 cards and money from people. I believe that the MUP probably already had

25 the intention of meting out revenge for the killing of Prascevic and four

Page 45436

1 other officers, knew which area they wanted to target for revenge and

2 asked the VJ to assist using the reason that they needed the VJ to provide

3 security against the KLA or UCK attacks. He says: "I do not believe that

4 there were any UCK/KLA units in the area at that time."

5 What did you tell us about that?

6 A. Well, it is common knowledge that part of -- that it belongs to

7 the general area called Reka and there were many terrorists and I spoke

8 about that yesterday. It is an area where terrorists are engaged in

9 large-scale operations and activities, and it is true that the terrorists

10 killed five policemen. He mentions Prascevic. I knew Prascevic myself.

11 He wasn't the chief of MUP but I did know him.

12 But as for Meja, it was an anti-terrorist operation exclusively

13 which was legal, lawful, with the aim of rounding up the killers of those

14 policemen. Otherwise, at that time we had a lot of losses and casualties,

15 particularly policemen but civilians as well who were loyal to us. Not

16 too many in that region, Albanians who were loyal to the authorities and

17 to Serbia.

18 Q. May we have on the overhead projector this next map now, please.

19 [In English] Would you be so kind as please to put to the ELMO.

20 [Interpretation] Now, what does that map show us, General? I have

21 just pulled it out of this binder. I cannot find the exhibit number, but

22 I will do so, and I'll be able to tell you in due course to see which tab

23 it's come out of.

24 A. On this map we can see how the anti-terrorist operation in Meja

25 unfolded. We see part -- the part that relates to my unit, the

Page 45437

1 2nd Motorised Battalion. My brigade -- or part of my brigade, rather,

2 took part in that operation with the aim of effecting --

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's tab 29.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I was saying, part of my unit,

5 one infantry company, that was its strength, took part here. There were

6 platoons here from the rear battalion. And I said yesterday that all my

7 combat units were outside Djakovica, and I gave you the places where they

8 were deployed. In Djakovica was the logistics rear battalion and the

9 command artillery battalion, both of which are not combat units, and they

10 had the assignment in -- along this axis from trig 478 to elevation or

11 feature 442, provide security and ensure that the terrorist forces from

12 this area here which is marked on the map and is called Reka, it is a

13 forest area where there were a lot of terrorists, to prevent them from

14 flowing into this area and coming into the town of Djakovica and

15 jeopardising our units there, and this is where our units were located.

16 One of my positions was here. Then there was a command post for the

17 3rd Artillery Battalion in the Beqe region here and also a command in the

18 town of Djakovica proper.

19 My right-wing neighbour was the 2nd Motorised Battalion from the

20 549th Brigade, and you can see that in this area here and there. And its

21 commander was Colonel Vukovic. Colonel Vukovic, yes.

22 The 113th Military Sector, which Nik Peraj mentions, whose

23 commander was Micunovic, was located in this area here, quite a long way

24 away. Far away from me and from Vukovic as well. My units had the

25 exclusive task of preventing this overflow, and I personally toured the

Page 45438

1 unit that was commanded by Major Odak, and I came across them at the

2 position they were supposed to be deployed at.

3 Now, in view of the fact that the terrorists had not or were not

4 in this area here and were not moving towards the positions held by our

5 units, our units didn't come into contact at all with members of the

6 Siptar forces. My soldiers and officers didn't even see a single

7 terrorist. And you can see that on the basis of the report that was

8 written where not a single bullet was fired, was used.

9 They spent two days there. They spent the night there. And on

10 this map we can see that they didn't move positions at all. If a unit

11 moves its position, then this is displayed in a different way. For

12 example, this unit here moved its positions. From this position, from

13 this area it moved to take up its positions to the north. The unit that

14 was from within my own composition, that is the Logistics Battalion, one

15 of its companies under the command of Major Odak was located in that area,

16 and that is the -- what relates to Meja and refers to my unit, and that is

17 what I'm aware of.

18 On the other hand, we know that that was the period of the

19 fiercest bombing, the heaviest bombing, the border belt around the

20 frontier, and we as a unit had many more important tasks to attend to than

21 this one here.

22 So this area, the Reka area, was supposed to be an operative base

23 for the landing. What Normandy was for the Allies.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: General, who compiled this map?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I compiled this map together with

Page 45439

1 Major Odak, who was the commander of that particular unit after --

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Sorry, when did you do that?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After being called by the commission

4 which was established, which was set up to investigate the alleged events

5 in Meja on the basis of the book that came out published by the democratic

6 forum. So that map was compiled at that time on the basis of statements

7 by subordinate officers and on the basis of knowledge and documentation

8 and information that we have dating back to that time contemporaneous.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Is there actually a date on it showing us when it

10 was compiled?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, there is no date. But I can

12 tell you that it was compiled when the statement was written, a day or two

13 after the writing of the statement. And I think that you will find a date

14 on the statement, when it was given.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Let us make one point more precise with respect to the question I

18 asked you. Nika Peraj says that he didn't believe that at that time in

19 the area there was a single unit of the KLA?

20 A. Well, of course that is pure fabrication and the greatest lie that

21 could have been uttered. Who else would we have engaged against then?

22 The forces of Yugoslavia engaged against whom? The civilian population

23 was never a target either of the army or the police.

24 Q. And what were the KLA forces, what strength were they in the area

25 at the time?

Page 45440

1 A. Three KLA brigades were in the area at the time. This was very

2 suitable ground, lots of forest, wooded area, and they could take in

3 forces from Kosare. And it was -- an operation was imminent, and in fact

4 they did have some success at the initial stage to break through, but this

5 was the best and shortest way if they managed to pass Kosare to stop them

6 in that area there. And the command, the corps command, sizing the

7 situation understood what it would mean if the forces were to join up, the

8 Kosare forces of the terrorists were to join up. And there were three

9 brigades of them. They had support from Albania, the artillery from

10 Albania, and they had fire support from NATO -- the NATO's air force. And

11 you know what terrorists and aviation joins up, when an air force and

12 terrorists join up you know what can be expected, what happens.

13 Q. All right, General. Let's move on. Paragraph 46 of his

14 statement. Paragraph 46 he mentions in -- paragraph 46 of the statement

15 he says: "The commander of the military security was Momir Stojanovic and

16 he was a good friend of mine. At the beginning of March 1999, Stojanovic

17 told me about the plan for ethnic cleansing which the Serb forces would

18 implement against the Kosovo Albanians in Djakovica municipality."

19 Well, I've read out the whole paragraph 46. Tell us what you

20 know.

21 A. Colonel Stojanovic was the head of military security in the

22 Pristina Corps, and he originated -- he was a native from the area of

23 Djakovica. We also know that Nik Peraj throughout the time was a

24 collaborator of the state security service or, rather, the military

25 security service, and on that basis, on those grounds, he was sent to

Page 45441

1 Djakovica, Nik Peraj was. And I cannot but say that -- I cannot say that

2 he didn't help the unit in many matters, Nik Peraj, especially in the

3 period after the breakdown of the anti-terrorist operation at the end of

4 September where there were still weapons and weapons hadn't been returned.

5 So quite probably he did quite a bit for the security service and

6 cooperated with them, collaborated with them. And he was deserving in

7 that area. But knowing Colonel Stojanovic and indeed all our officers, I

8 do not believe that somebody could have had any monstrous idea of that

9 kind, thought up a monstrous idea like that, especially not somebody

10 belonging to an ethnic group that was supposed to be annihilated,

11 destroyed. That would be quite illogical. Had he mentioned somebody

12 else, then perhaps one could have given some thought to the matter. But

13 to tell an Albanian that all the Albanians would be wiped out, and he was

14 himself an Albanian, that seems to me to be quite impossible and beyond

15 belief.

16 Q. Well, many things that defy belief can be heard here, but let us

17 proceed.

18 JUDGE KWON: While the map is on the ELMO, the general mentioned

19 statements in relation to this map, and I note that this map is tab 20.1,

20 and tab 29 is his statement. So if you could lay some foundation about

21 the statement and let us know what this statement is about.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can tell you exactly what I

23 stated.

24 JUDGE KWON: No. It is for the accused to lead the evidence.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

Page 45442












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Page 45443

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. In tab 29, you have a statement to the expert team, to the

3 commission for the cooperation with the ICTY. The date is the 27th of

4 December, 2002. Have you found it?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What the unit did on the 28th of April, nineteen-ninety -- is

7 that it?

8 A. The 27th and 28th have been dealt with separately because the

9 commission asked us to look at each day in particular, to describe the

10 activities of our units, although from the map you can see that my unit

11 did not move. I had to write a statement nevertheless so that everything

12 would be very precise so that it could be established whether I was

13 telling the truth or not.

14 Q. All right. Let us just have a look at tab 28 now. It contains

15 the statement that deals with the 27th, and the next one has to do with

16 the 28th. Have you found that?

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE KWON: I'd like to hear again what this expert team is, how

19 they composed of.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot hear you. They did not

21 compile anything. I did. I made this statement to the expert team, and

22 the expert team was established on the basis of the fact that some things

23 appeared including in book about alleged crimes in the territory of Kosovo

24 and Metohija.

25 In view of the negative experience with Markale and other such

Page 45444

1 deceptions, the expert team was tasked with dealing with this as soon as

2 possible in order to establish the truth.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: We heard that yesterday.

4 Mr. Milosevic, is this the same group which General Delic called

5 the VJ commission?

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is called the Commission for

7 Cooperation with the ICTY. I assume it's the same. I don't know anything

8 about this commission, so I cannot inform you about that. But it is

9 entitled to the Commission for Cooperation with the ICTY, and underneath

10 it says "to the expert team." So obviously it's the expert team of the

11 commission. Obviously a commission for cooperation with you here was

12 established, and then they established their own expert team.

13 If the transcript reflects what the general said at the end of his

14 statement in response to your question -- oh, yes, to does say it. It

15 does. It is in the transcript what the general said.

16 Q. So he sent it to the commission for cooperation, to the expert

17 team.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. I can't see the English translation here. I assume it is there.

20 Yes, that's what it says, to the Commission for Cooperation with the ICTY.

21 You can see it in the translation too.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Proceed, Mr. Milosevic.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Look at what you said here --

25 JUDGE BONOMY: May I -- may I say, speaking at least for myself, I

Page 45445

1 do not see any need to go over with the General statements that he himself

2 has made. These simply need to be adopted by him as accurate accounts of

3 what happened, and he's already, of course, dealt with the matter without

4 reference to the statements. I'm simply expressing my own personal view

5 of the situation.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's quite all right, Mr. Bonomy.

7 I'm not going to go through all of this. I just wanted to quote a single

8 sentence in the middle of the first paragraph of your statement related to

9 the 27th.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. You say that the terrorists, in addition to constant attacks

12 against the SUP and MUP, they carry out total repression over the Siptar

13 population in order to persecute them.

14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters could not find the exact

15 reference. We're sorry.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Let us not go through the statement, tab 29.1, as Mr. Kwon said a

18 few moments ago.

19 Please, could you look at paragraph 49 of Nika Peraj's statement

20 now. I'm going to skip the explanation.

21 "I was at the meeting when the massacre in Meja was planned

22 because this was going on at the same -- in the same building where I was

23 with my security unit."

24 A. I haven't got that. I haven't got that report, but I can tell you

25 that it's not true at all.

Page 45446

1 I don't know which building it is, and I don't know what kind of

2 planned massacre that is. It is quite incredible that now all of a sudden

3 he says that something happened and that he was not present there.

4 Q. Oh, no, he says he was present. And he says: "I was at the

5 meeting when the massacre in Meja was planned."

6 A. That is quite incredible, quite incredible that somebody would

7 call him to attend a meeting about a massacre of his own people.

8 Q. Well, did anybody have that kind of meeting regardless of inviting

9 Nika Peraj or not?

10 A. Of course not. I've already said that, and I believe there's no

11 need for me to repeat this. But it is quite certain that not in a single

12 case was any kind of agreement sought on a massacre or any kind of

13 persecution of the civilian population. After all, they were citizens of

14 our country, and what normal, sensible country would do that to its own

15 people?

16 Q. Please. Now, this is a very important part that he testified

17 about here in particular, but I'm not going to dwell on the transcript.

18 The statement will do. It is paragraph 50 of his statement.

19 He says: "On the 28th of April, 1999, the day after Meja and

20 Korenica massacre were committed, I was in the brigade headquarters at the

21 cultural centre in Djakovica. Major Zdravko Vinter," that is subordinate

22 officer of yours?

23 A. Yes, assistant commander for information of the unit.

24 Q. All right. "Who was employed in the personnel office, was

25 preparing a report for the 3rd Army headquarters in Nis. In the report of

Page 45447

1 the VJ, it was stated that 74 terrorists had been killed in Korenica and

2 68 in Meja. On this occasion, I was able to read over Major Vinter's

3 shoulder part of the -- Vinter used big letters when he typed the report.

4 Vinter used large fonts when typing." Again, he is qualifying it as the

5 massacre in Meja. He is writing a report, and over his shoulder he saw

6 the post-operation report saying terrorists had been killed, 74 in -- 68

7 in Meja and 74 in Korenica?

8 A. First and foremost, there was no massacre in Meja. Secondly, it

9 is not possible that my subordinate officer, a major who could write only

10 to me and report only to me, that he would write to the commander of the

11 3rd Army. That is a third level in relation to me and fourth in relation

12 to him. So even theoretically it was impossible for him to write that.

13 On the other hand, he did not take part in this, and our unit did

14 not take part in this, and it was not in charge, and there was no need for

15 it to report to anyone about that. So this is totally unrealistic.

16 This corroborates what I said a few moments ago, that Nik Peraj

17 did not have basic military skills. Not a single officer could assume

18 that an official report should be written four rungs above him.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: It may be I've missed the evidence on this, but can

20 you remind me, do you say that there were terrorists killed at Meja and at

21 Korenica?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's not what I said. Then you

23 didn't hear me right. I did not say that terrorists were killed in Meja

24 and Korenica. I was just saying where my unit took part.

25 JUDGE BONOMY: I'm not suggesting you did. I'm trying to be clear

Page 45448

1 about it. Do you -- I'm asking you now. Do you say that terrorists were

2 killed at Meja or Korenica?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that in Meja and Korenica

4 there were terrorists and that an anti-terrorist operation was carried

5 out. I said that the members of my unit had no contact, and they never

6 even saw the terrorists.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: But are you able to tell us whether, nevertheless,

8 any terrorists were killed?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you're asking me to say

10 something that I had not seen, and I swore here that I would tell the

11 truth and nothing but the truth. I don't have any knowledge about that,

12 and it was not my duty to report on that. Had my soldiers killed a

13 terrorist, then I would have had to include that in my report to my

14 superior officer. Everything else goes beyond that.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: I follow that. Are you saying that no one gave any

16 report to you about whether or not terrorists were killed in either of

17 these places?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No one informed me about that

19 because I was garrison commander. However, garrisons are not in charge of

20 operations. Garrisons, as units, do not engage in combat activity. They

21 are military territorial organs primarily in charge of securing a

22 particular order, organising supplies for the population, et cetera, but

23 they do not carry out activities and are not in charge of activities as

24 such.

25 I think that I never said anything like that in my statement.

Page 45449

1 JUDGE BONOMY: I don't suggest you do. I'm asking you these

2 questions because yesterday on a number of occasions you said that if

3 something had happened you were bound to have heard about it. Now, does

4 this not fall into this category? This is not one of those things that if

5 it happened you were bound to have heard about it?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right. I would have heard of

7 that had it happened, but I said that I hadn't heard about it and,

8 therefore, I cannot speak about it.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Does that mean that as far as you're concerned no

10 terrorists were killed in either of these locations?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That means that I am not aware of

12 anybody being killed. That is not to say that that was not the case

13 altogether. Many things happen without me knowing about it. Perhaps at

14 this very instant somebody is being killed in New York and Washington and

15 I don't know about it. Perhaps this is not a very fortunate example.

16 JUDGE BONOMY: It may not -- I'm not going to simply depart from

17 this in light of the attitude you're adopting to these questions.

18 Are you saying that the events that we're discussing at the moment

19 were not within your area of your responsibility, because you give the

20 example of New York, which is clearly isn't within your area of

21 responsibility.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. New York certainly is

23 not, but I said that the air defence units do not have responsibility on

24 the ground. I was responsible for all of Kosovo and Metohija in terms of

25 the air defence, whereas this was part of the area of responsibility of

Page 45450

1 the 125th Brigade and the 549th Brigade. I as brigade commander of the

2 PVO did not have any responsibility over events on the ground nor can I

3 engage in planning or can I carry out any operations except those when I

4 myself am attacked, when my units are attacked. So it is purely

5 defensive.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Do you accept that yesterday you said on a number

7 of occasions that when incidents were being put to you, described by other

8 witnesses or in other material, you said, "That could not have happened,

9 because if it had, I would have heard about it."

10 Now, do you accept that you said that on a number occasions? Just

11 answer that yes or no.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that about the town of

13 Djakovica, about concrete events that are mentioned in a concrete sense.

14 You asked me --

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you tell me how this matter that we're

16 exploring at the moment differs from the sort of material that you were

17 able to tell us yesterday you would have known about it if it had

18 occurred?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that had I known, I would

20 have reported to my superior officer about this, just like any officer of

21 mine was duty-bound to report to me about that. Since I did not take

22 part --

23 JUDGE BONOMY: You plainly don't understand my question or you're

24 deliberately avoiding answering it. My question is simply this: Tell me

25 how the present incident differs from the incidents that you said you were

Page 45451












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13 English transcripts.













Page 45452

1 bound to have known about in Djakovica. Is it because this falls somehow

2 or other outwith responsibility in a different way or outwith an area

3 you'd be familiar with or what? What is it that's different about this

4 incident, or these two incidents, that make them such that you cannot tell

5 us one way or the other whether people were killed in them?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that had an anti-terrorist

7 operation been carried out, that's what I said -- it does happen that

8 people get killed in anti-terrorist actions, but in this concrete case

9 that you are obviously alluding to, I cannot say anything about it because

10 nobody provided any information about Meja, and what you are obviously

11 trying to say to me, and that is that I have not made a statement about

12 that.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: I can take this no further. Thank you.

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: General, can I ask you the extent of the contacts

15 that you had with Nik Peraj when he -- when he served with you?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nik Peraj came to see me about 10 or

17 15 times, since he was three levels below me in terms of subordination.

18 Before me he would go to report to his Chief of Staff to inform him. Very

19 often he socialised with the head of the security organ, and I already

20 said that he worked for security.

21 As for me, he saw me about ten times, and every time when he

22 reported to me on an ordered assignment, and that was the barracks guards.

23 This was done every seven days, and then he reported to me about it.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can you tell me generally what impression did you

25 form of his character at that time, of his honesty, his trustworthiness?

Page 45453

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My impression was that he was an

2 honest man who could be trusted, and that then he would have told me. He

3 would have reported to me had he known about the event at the time.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Why would you now then doubt the evidence that he

5 gave during the Prosecution case?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's very clear what's going

7 on. Maybe I would be saying the same thing now if I were living in

8 Djakovica.

9 General Delic tried to explain this to you. It's very clear what

10 a person has to say if they're in his situation. He most probably gave

11 all or part of his statement under duress, because at the time there was

12 an exist -- there was in existence an order of mine making it obligatory

13 for every commanding officer and every soldier to report any crime they

14 were aware of, and they were free to come and inform me personally.

15 If he had known something at the time and didn't tell me, either

16 he was dishonest then or he was dishonest when he gave the statement. If

17 he had kept mum about it then, then he was guilty of cover-up, or he gave

18 his recent statement under duress. Maybe he is being threatened. He is a

19 man who has three children. I cannot completely understand, but I can

20 only guess at what his situation could be.

21 JUDGE KWON: Let me be clear about one thing more. General

22 Djosan, what you said is this, that you should have known what happened in

23 Djakovica because your subordinates should have told you. But I'm looking

24 at this map. Given that Meja is just the adjacent village to Djakovica,

25 and as for the anti-terrorist operation which took place in Meja, I don't

Page 45454

1 understand why you didn't hear anything about the result of the operation.

2 You should have received a report in one kind or any other.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You just said that my subordinate

4 would have reported to me. None of those people in Meja were my

5 subordinates. The 2nd Battalion was not subordinated to me. My

6 subordinated unit that took part in that operation was one company of a

7 Logistics Battalion commanded by certain Vlatko. I hope he will testify

8 here.

9 I went to inspect, but from the place where this unit was

10 deployed, Meja could not even be seen. Meja was at a slight elevation

11 with the forest in front of it, so it was not visible from where I was.

12 The commander of the 2nd Battalion had no duty to report to me.

13 The system of command is such that reports are only sent to your own

14 superiors. I cannot speculate on matters which were not reported to me by

15 my subordinates and of which I have no direct knowledge. All I know is

16 that there had been a anti-terrorist action because my own soldiers, some

17 of them, were involved.

18 JUDGE KWON: So by the time when you prepared this map, tab 29 in

19 the commission, you should have heard something then.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE KWON: Then do you know now how many terrorists were killed

22 in that operation?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm telling you how I heard about

24 it. I actually read about it from a book, a book published by Natasa

25 Kandic. That's the first information I got about events in Meja, and it

Page 45455

1 was on the basis of that that I was invited by the commission and on the

2 basis of that that we wrote our reports. The first knowledge I ever

3 gained about Meja was from that book.

4 JUDGE KWON: The number of killed people, be it KLA or civilians,

5 is it correct? The --

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if I don't know whether it

7 happened, I can't say anything about the numbers. I just answer to you

8 that I don't know if anybody was killed, and you go on to ask me if the

9 number is correct.

10 JUDGE KWON: I think we can -- that's the farthest we can get.

11 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, are you saying there is no alternative

12 version of these events which has been established by the commission that

13 you're aware of? Alternative to the book that you're describing.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't believe any

15 alternative versions. I cannot tell you simply anything about a matter I

16 completely ignore. The first I ever heard anything about it was from that

17 book.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: I understand that, but that's a book that the

19 commission was set up to investigate and perhaps either discredit or

20 confirm. Now, as the result of that exercise, has it been confirmed that

21 a number of people who may have been terrorists were killed or has it not

22 been confirmed? Surely you know that through working along with the

23 commission.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. That commission was abolished

25 just after it started its work. When the new minister of defence took

Page 45456

1 over, he immediately stopped that commission.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Remind me of the identity of the person who worked

3 along with you in compiling the map.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was the commander of this unit,

5 my subordinate officer.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Commander of which unit?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Lieutenant Colonel Vlatko Odak. He

8 was then commander of a company in my brigade that participated. And I

9 just showed you in which location that was.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: And he never -- he never discovered the outcome,

11 whether anyone was killed in the operation?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You would have to ask him.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Oh, come on. Come on, General. Surely in the

14 discussions you had you would at least explore the question whether he was

15 aware of the death of terrorists in that operation.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I only asked him to write a report

17 describing the condition and the position of our unit. That's all I asked

18 of him.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: So you're saying it's not even of any interest to

20 you whether people were killed at that incident or not. You're not

21 interested in that.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am interested now that so much is

23 being said about it. Now that I have read about it, I would be happy to

24 find out the truth.

25 I'm not saying that the event as such is of no interest to me. It

Page 45457

1 is. It happened in our country, in Kosovo and Metohija, but I'm not able

2 to provide answers about something that I have no direct knowledge of, and

3 I will be happy if the truth is learned.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will adjourn now for 20 minutes.

5 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

6 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, please continue.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. There's one thing that is not quite clear to me regarding the

10 questions that have been asked of you. You said that an anti-terrorist

11 action had taken place in that area. It involved one of your units.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. The task of that unit of yours was the line of blockade you showed

14 on the map. You said that this unit of yours did not carry out any combat

15 activities because it did not run into any of the three KLA brigades that

16 had been present there. You even said they didn't fire a single round

17 because they were not involved in any combat, and the commanders of those

18 units reported to you that they had no combat action and did not fire a

19 single round. Is this why you are not able to provide any explanation as

20 to things that don't refer to your units?

21 THE INTERPRETER: The witness does not have a microphone on.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's precisely the reason. I

23 cannot provide information on matters on which I have no clear and precise

24 knowledge.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 45458

1 Q. All right, General. Then we will cover another few points

2 regarding this.

3 Let me clarify one more matter. Mr. Bonomy asked you that how

4 come yesterday you said a couple of times, and you indeed said so

5 regarding crimes in Djakovica, that you would have known about them had

6 they happened? What is the job of the garrison commander in Djakovica?

7 There was discussion of several crimes in Djakovica, Milos Gilic Street,

8 Qerim neighbourhood. What is the job of the garrison commander in

9 Djakovica? Is his job to be familiar with the situation in all of the

10 town?

11 A. The garrison commander is responsible primarily in peacetime but

12 also in war to get informed about events in town. He can get such

13 information from the municipal MUP organs but also from other civil

14 authorities. And he is also responsible for ensuring normal operation,

15 normal life in town as far as possible.

16 But I was, in fact, commander of an air defence brigade. My

17 responsibility, my primary responsibility, was airspace and my own units.

18 As far as the functioning of authorities in Djakovica is concerned, I

19 appointed Major Vinter, one of my subordinates, to attend from time to

20 time meetings within the garrison to regulate problems, any problems that

21 may occur involving civilians.

22 Q. You say it was within the garrison.

23 A. Yes, the command of the garrison.

24 Q. In paragraph 52 in his statement, Nika Peraj says --

25 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues]... paragraph 52,

Page 45459

1 please.

2 JUDGE KWON: Yes, on the ELMO.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. I will skip the greatest part of this paragraph and read only what

5 refers to you directly. It says: "Djosan did not agree, did not approve

6 of the operation in Korenica and Meja and arrested Micunovic for

7 involvement. Micunovic, however, remained in prison for only three days.

8 I learnt about the arrest of Micunovic from his brother, Aco Micunovic,

9 who was a sergeant in the VJ in Djakovica. Micunovic was released upon

10 personal intervention (I don't know at which level, perhaps political) of

11 Vojislav Seselj and Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan. Sergej Perovic told me

12 this."

13 So it says here that you arrested Micunovic for his reported

14 involvement in what you call an anti-terrorist operation. Did you really

15 arrest him?

16 A. No, I did not. I didn't even try, because I had no information or

17 reason to have him arrested. If there had been the slightest reason or

18 suspicion, I would have. But what it says here is completely illogical.

19 It says he was arrested and then released.

20 Q. No, no, no. It says: "Djosan did not approve of the operation in

21 Korenica and Meja and therefore arrested Micunovic for his involvement."

22 A. In view of my responsibilities, it was not up to me to approve or

23 not approve of anti-terrorist operation. My primary responsibility were

24 operations in the airspace.

25 Q. So you didn't arrest Micunovic?

Page 45460












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Page 45461

1 A. No.

2 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you assist me with one thing? Was he held in

3 custody?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not that I know of. He was

5 replaced. That's what I know. He was replaced from his position of

6 commander of the 113th Battalion -- Detachment.

7 JUDGE BONOMY: Was that immediately following upon the

8 anti-terrorist operation?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know the exact date because

10 he was not subordinated to me, but later, in the course of my inquiries

11 and when I checked, I know that he was replaced in that period because he

12 was not very good at performing his duty of holding the line of blockade

13 that was his task, and you can see that on the map.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: And was he held in prison for a few days?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have any information about

16 that. I don't think so, no.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. In paragraph 54, Nik Peraj says the following: "Individual

20 witnesses said that the Serbs sprayed gas over the victims to knock them

21 out before they killed them."

22 He says: "I never saw gas canisters in there to confirm this

23 allegation, but I'm convinced that the Serbs used them."

24 A. Well, that speaks of his knowledge of the situation and his

25 statement why would anybody sprinkle gas on anyone in an open space to

Page 45462

1 incapacitate them.

2 Q. Well, do you know anything about any gas being used?

3 A. No. I've never heard anything like that. This is the first piece

4 of information where any sort of gas is mentioned.

5 Q. In paragraph 71, he says that he heard of an incident which took

6 place at the end of March in Djakovica at the address Ymer Grezda Street

7 134a, I mentioned this yesterday, although my knowledge of the incident is

8 not first-hand knowledge. I did hear that a paramilitary group was

9 responsible for that named the Black Hand which was led by Rajko Pantovic.

10 Now, my question to you is this: Was there ever any paramilitary

11 group called the Black Hand and do you know -- does the name Rajko

12 Pantovic ring a well?

13 A. No, Rajko Pantovic is not a name I was familiar with nor do I

14 know -- and actually, I do know that there was never any paramilitary

15 group in Djakovica.

16 Q. In paragraph 77, he says: "The MUP had no tanks but had armoured

17 personnel carriers given to them by the army and painted blue. The BOV is

18 something that the VJ and the MUP had. The MUP did not have any Pragas

19 because they didn't know how to use them. The unit of Colonel Djosan had

20 combat armoured vehicles and about 30 Pragas."

21 He says that about your unit or, rather, his own unit because he

22 was in your unit.

23 A. That is true. My unit did indeed have Pragas, BOVs or combat

24 armoured vehicles, and the other thing he mentioned. Those were the

25 weapons that they had, and the task was to shoot at targets in the air

Page 45463

1 using those weapons.

2 Q. They are all anti-aircraft weapons; is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. All right. Thank you. Xhevahire Syla, a witness here, a lady,

5 said that on the 14th of April, 1999, mixed Serb forces entered Nivokaz,

6 Djakovica municipality, stormed Albanian houses, gave the inhabitants five

7 minutes to leave, a convoy towards Djakovica was formed, the police

8 attacked some people in the convoy and told them to go to Albania and said

9 that refugees were not allowed to leave the route to Prizren which was a

10 roundabout way to the border. Do you have any knowledge about that?

11 A. No, none. No knowledge about that, and I don't believe that it's

12 true either.

13 Q. She goes on to say --

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Can I be clear? How are you in a position to say

15 that? How is this incident -- how is this different from the position in

16 relation to the anti-terrorist operation?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you followed carefully, what it

18 says here is that members of the army of Yugoslavia entered and that it

19 was a lady, a lady witness, and that one of the members of the army of

20 Yugoslavia, or the MUP, entered the house and ordered the people inside to

21 leave. I did not say that there were no anti-terrorist actions,

22 operation; but I do know the army and the police very well, and I can

23 state from when I saw on the spot and what I knew of them that they never

24 did anything against the civilian population. So I assume that your

25 witness was indeed a civilian, was she not?

Page 45464

1 JUDGE BONOMY: So this -- so you base this on your own view of the

2 integrity of the army and the police and on nothing else?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I base that on my knowledge and

4 familiarity with my unit and the army that I was a member of and the

5 police force that I cooperated with over there constantly, and I know that

6 things like that did not happen. That's what I base that on.

7 I was down there, and I know the people there, the people I worked

8 with.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

10 MR. NICE: Again I'm not sure whether the accused is quoting from

11 oral testimony or from the exhibit. If it's the exhibit, it's Exhibit 270

12 or 270A, the redacted version of the statement, but again he should have

13 made the statement available to the Court and for us to follow if he's

14 going to quote from it, especially if he's going to quote from it at that

15 speed.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Quite so, Mr. Milosevic.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, all right. You didn't give me

18 instructions of that kind up until now. I will do my best to prepare it

19 for you, but I did quote, Mr. Robinson, on many occasions from witness

20 statements, and there were no requests to place those statements on the

21 overhead projector or to hand them round. And I have been quoting from

22 statements for at least 100 times now.

23 May I continue?

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, please continue.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 45465

1 Q. She goes on to say that the convoy was stopped at a place near the

2 bridge of Bistrazin and that the Serb forces separated people -- or

3 rather, the Serb forces separated from the convoy and then the convoy was

4 hit by NATO strikes, and then three low-flying planes with Serb flags

5 passed over their heads and bombed the convoy seven times and killed 70 to

6 80 people.

7 So we're talking about Bistrazin or Bistrazin, the bridge there.

8 Do you know what happened?

9 A. First of all, the statement by this witness is ludicrous. In

10 Bistrazin, on the other hand, I had my unit there. It was a unit which

11 was in charge of securing the Bezim bridge, which is to be found in

12 Bistrazin and is part of the command artillery battalion, and all it did

13 was to mask the bridge, camouflage it.

14 The event that is mentioned, my people were not present during the

15 event and didn't personally see the air force attack on that place near

16 Bistrazin.

17 Now, the fact -- to say that the members of the army accompanied

18 civilians, there's no question of that. And it is even more ludicrous

19 when she goes on to say that she saw this, she was in the column, and that

20 she counted the number of airstrikes by the Serb air force.

21 Q. Just one question. Were our planes airborne at all, flying at

22 all?

23 A. She had obviously saw NATO planes because our planes were not able

24 to take off five days into the war. What courage and bravery would it

25 take and what kind of NATO forces would they have been had our air force

Page 45466

1 been able to reach Djakovica and then go in to launch seven airstrikes

2 which is what this witness said. And that she was in the column, that she

3 saw insignia or flags or whatever she said.

4 Q. I don't want to hear as to what people might or might not have

5 seen --

6 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, indeed. On the earlier point that you make

7 that the column was not accompanied by Serb soldiers or VJ soldiers, how

8 do you know that?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All I know is that the army at that

10 time of the fiercest part of the NATO aggression had very important

11 assignments to defend the country from NATO planes, and NATO planes struck

12 the columns as well. There were strikes on the columns. So which

13 commander would have sent his own soldiers to accompany a column which

14 might have been the target and indeed was the target of NATO strikes?

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Milosevic, for my own part I see little -- in

16 fact, I don't see any benefit in seeking the logical analysis of a

17 situation by this witness from the point of view of his general views

18 about the integrity of the army and the police. I think we need to hear

19 evidence of his knowledge of circumstances, and I found a lot of the

20 recent evidence pretty pointless for that reason.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll explain the sense of all this

22 straight away, Mr. Bonomy.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. General, in view of your position as commander of the anti-air

25 defence on the territory, did you, ex officio, have to be informed if any

Page 45467

1 of our planes were flying, were airborne?

2 A. Yes, I must have been informed. Somebody must have informed me so

3 as to prevent our plane from being shot down by our own forces. So had

4 any of the planes taken off, I would have had to know first, and I had no

5 information of any kind like that.

6 JUDGE BONOMY: My comment, if you were listening to it, did not

7 apply to the evidence about the three planes, and I do see that as a

8 relevant comment.

9 MR. NICE: I've now got the witness's statements if the accused is

10 going to continue asking questions and if they're based on the witness's

11 statements and he let's me know what paragraph of which of the two

12 statements it is, I'll make them available for the overhead projector.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: You heard, Mr. Milosevic. What paragraphs are

14 you referring to?

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do not have any more questions

16 with regard to those statements, so I have to save time. I'm not going to

17 continue along that line of questioning.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. General, just some concrete events dating back to March 1999, and

20 I have in mind certain documents that you yourself brought in. Among your

21 documents there was your war diary. Can we now have a look at the most

22 characteristic events of March 1999 that you made a note of in your war

23 diary, entries about that. And it's in tab 6?

24 MR. NICE: For good order, we've been going through one or two

25 tabs that haven't been exhibited. May I repeat my position in relation to

Page 45468

1 all VJ commission documents and invite the Chamber not to produce them at

2 this stage and await the conclusion of questioning of this witness. I

3 think that in the past, while this same topic's been dealt with, the

4 Chamber has taken the view that statements of the witness himself made on

5 an earlier occasion, whatever the ruling might be about the admissibility

6 of VJ commission produced documents generally, is that they are admitted.

7 If that is -- if I'm right in recalling that as the Chamber as practice,

8 then I dare say that tab 28 and tab 29 might fall into a different

9 category from maps and so on that have been produced for the commission.

10 JUDGE BONOMY: It may not matter that it was a VJ commission,

11 Mr. Nice, where in relation to this particular map the witness said he was

12 one of the two people who compiled it.

13 MR. NICE: Your Honour is quite right. That may form a

14 different -- that may form a similar basis for admissibility under the

15 practice of the Court to the statements themselves. Yes, I can see that.

16 But in any event, to avoid the problems that we've been having about

17 exhibits, it might be prudent to get these dealt with straight away.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, in tidying up the exhibits, we'll admit

20 tabs 4 and 4.1, tabs 29 and 29.1, and tab 28. The proper reference is to

21 tabs 4 and 4A.

22 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. General, would you please bear in mind that we need brief answers

25 and tell us briefly about the contents and entries of your war diary, not

Page 45469












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13 English transcripts.













Page 45470

1 to lose time. We have the first day of the war here, and then several

2 days later you look at several days, several entries for purposes of

3 illustration to see what your war diary was like and what it contains.

4 Just in the briefest terms.

5 A. Yes, with the first day of the war.

6 Q. Yes. You have the first day, sixth day, seventh day, eighth day

7 and so on and so forth. So you have extracted several days. But I don't

8 think we need go through every day, each of these days. Just tell us the

9 basics and then we can move on. We have provided the war diary in the

10 original and of course in the translation.

11 MR. NICE: Just on that last observation. No doubt the full

12 document is here, and if it could be made available to me now, then I will

13 be able to review the whole document as opposed to the extract overnight.

14 Perhaps it's with the witness; I'm not sure.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, is the document here, the document

16 in its entirety?

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'd have to ask my -- or,

18 rather, the witness that. I don't believe that we have the entire

19 document here, just a few excerpts. I didn't assume that you would be

20 interested in the entire document.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: General, what do you have there?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have parts of my diary, individual

23 days from individual periods.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Why do you not have the whole diary with you?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that was in agreement with the

Page 45471

1 legal advisors of Mr. Milosevic. I could, of course, have brought in the

2 whole diary from the archives.

3 JUDGE BONOMY: You don't have it in your hotel?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly not. Had I had it in the

5 hotel, you would have had it here.

6 MR. NICE: Your Honours will have course be immediately alerted in

7 light of the earlier issues you've raised to what can be seen on the

8 English between pages 2 and 3 is missing entries. We can only do what we

9 can with the material available. Just look at the sequence of dates and

10 remember the questions we're asking, or, rather, the Court was asking.

11 It seems very unfortunate indeed that where from previous witness

12 it was cross-examination of previous witnesses it was known that war

13 diaries are one of the fundamentally important documents that the

14 Prosecution wishes to see they should have brought in a sample.

15 JUDGE BONOMY: Is this a document that's been the subject of a

16 request at any stage?

17 MR. NICE: No. My understanding is that when we were asked to

18 refine down our requests on the grounds that the number of requests we

19 made was too broad, this was one that was then cut off the list or that

20 was not particularised. I'll check that further, but I think that's the

21 position. We had to make a selection, and this is not one of those we in

22 the event selected. But nevertheless, it's clear from all our previous

23 cross-examination, and indeed from the requests we've made, that these

24 documents, where witnesses who are able to produce them turn up, are

25 vitally valuable.

Page 45472

1 JUDGE BONOMY: Mr. Djosan, did the war diary remain with the army

2 after your retirement?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] War diaries are sent to the

4 archives, like all other documents from a certain period.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: So how did you manage to get it to get these

6 extracts from it?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Through the advisors of

8 Mr. Milosevic. Zdenko Tomanovic, attorney-at-law.

9 JUDGE BONOMY: Did he simply select the parts that he wanted to

10 you bring along?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. We selected them together. He

12 said, "Select a few," and I thought that the first day was very important,

13 like in any war, this one included.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let me be clear. Mr. Tomanovic sent

16 an official letter to the archives requesting the witness's war diary so

17 that it could be presented here, and indeed he got it and made a selection

18 with the witness so that you would see what this is like.

19 If you require the war diary in its entirety, I'm going to ask Mr.

20 Tomanovic to obtain it the same way, formally, the entire diary of

21 Mr. Djosan -- or, rather, the command of the 52nd Brigade of the air

22 defence. That was published on front page that is here in the photocopy.

23 So then a few examples were taken.

24 But if Mr. Nice needs it in its entirety, we would be very glad to

25 be of assistance so that he can read it in its entirety.

Page 45473

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, in the circumstances, yes, I think

2 the proceedings might be facilitated and helped if you could get the war

3 diary in its entirety.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. I'll take it upon myself

5 this obligation to have the entire war diary be made available to you.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. General, since we took this as a subject which is supposed to show

8 what a war diary is all about and since your unit is a very special one

9 being air defence, but who is it that keeps a war diary?

10 A. The operations duty officers at the staff of the brigade.

11 Q. And what are the entries made according to regulations?

12 A. The entries made include the most important things that happen

13 during the course of a day, especially losses, operations, important

14 events that are of significance for the work of the unit, key briefings,

15 and things like that.

16 Q. All right. Show it on the example of the first date of war.

17 A. The Metohija barracks, at 0345 hours, a wire received from the

18 Pristina Corps with the regard to a declaration of an imminent threat of

19 war by the federal government.

20 So what do I do? I call in all my officers, the commanders of all

21 the units. For example, the commanding officer of the company, the

22 communications company, should adjust it to the situation of war. Then I

23 order that communications should be moved to a mobile centre. Then

24 further on, as for the Chief of Staff who commands the staff, I tell him

25 that a mobile team should be prepared for repairing vehicles, then also

Page 45474

1 reconnoitering positions, then also food for the coming period.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: You should direct the witness to those areas of

3 the diary that are relevant to the case. We're not interested in general

4 information in the diary.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, this is specific

6 information that has to do with his brigade. I asked the witness a few

7 moments ago what kind of entries are made, and he said of all important

8 events, information about what they do, how orders are issued, who

9 receives orders, and so on.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have a very important event at

11 2000 hours. There was an airstrike on the ground in Djakovica, and the

12 operations duty officer of the MUP told me about that. So --

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues]... Yes.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's an important event. And then

15 the activities that I ordered, that is to say to relocate units from the

16 locations where they had been until then. We can go on.

17 The 26th, at the Devet Jugovica barracks aeroplanes hit the

18 ammunition depot. Then a small group of aircraft hit the Morina barracks.

19 Then several cruising missiles launched from the Adriatic into the

20 interior. Then a cruising missile was shot down in the area of Zuba.

21 Then there are several individual aircraft, one of which fired at the

22 Devet Jugovica barracks. Then the first losses in the brigade. This was

23 on the 31st of March when Cimbaljevic Djordje and another soldier were

24 killed. The 31st of March, 1999, eight days into the war.


Page 45475

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And he describes when it happened,

2 how they got killed. And it says, inter alia, that Lieutenant Colonel

3 Drago Milic distinguished himself in trying to save these soldiers. The

4 radar was totally destroyed, et cetera.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Before that you have the fifth day of war, everything recorded

7 minute to minute?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. When each aircraft came, different groups of aircraft, several

10 crews missiles. Then all of that is at 0305, 0515, 0735, 1642, 43, 1745.

11 2125, 2116, 2155, 2201 hours, et cetera, et cetera, all of it in terms of

12 hours and minutes about the airstrikes. So that is everything that is

13 recorded in a war diary?

14 MR. NICE: I'm lost on that last. I'm afraid I couldn't find it.

15 I don't know what the accused was reading from. Perhaps I'm just not --


17 MR. NICE: I'm grateful.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Microphone not activated].

19 MR. NICE: Yes. Thank you.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What I read out just now was the

21 28th of March, the fifth day of the war, where you can see the hours and

22 minutes of the attacks.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can read it out to you in detail.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. There is no need for you to read this out in detail. Is there

Page 45476

1 anything else that is characteristic of this diary that you should like to

2 draw our attention to?

3 A. For the most part, it contains this kind of detail, details that

4 are important for the unit, losses, activities, enemy activities, attacks

5 by terrorists, casualties among our soldiers who were killed by Siptar

6 terrorists. So incidents involving loss of life, woundings, major losses

7 of resources, things that are not part of everyday activities.

8 And in addition to that, we sent regular daily reports to the

9 superior command, because according to a certain pattern, we reported on

10 the situation in the unit, and this to a large extent coincides with the

11 war diary itself.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: Can you show me an example here of recording an

13 engagement with terrorists during this period?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this period I'd have to look it

15 up, if you give me some time. For example, during the break I can tell

16 you when the terrorists exactly attacked one of our units that was

17 stationed in Rezina. Right now I'd have to look through all of this,

18 because there are several excerpts from the war diary.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. General, you made a statement to the Commission for Cooperation

22 with this institution on the 28th of December, 2002. What does this

23 statement pertain to?

24 A. Let me just find this.

25 Q. It's tab 7.

Page 45477

1 A. This has to do with the activities of the unit on the 24th of

2 March, that is to say precisely the day the war started. This is my own

3 statement. And for the most part what was asked from me is to speak about

4 what happened in the Catholic street in Djakovica, and it is below Cabrat.

5 And I wrote about that, and I think I referred to that yesterday, too,

6 what happened, or, rather, what we observed at that point in time.

7 Q. You talk about what happened in Catholic street, how it was hit,

8 and the mosque, too, and other destruction in town.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Not a single gasoline station remained intact in Djakovica. And

11 then there are secondary effects, that is to say that military facilities

12 and other economic facilities were destroyed.

13 A. That's right.

14 Q. Major Vlatko Odak also gave a statement in December. He was your

15 subordinate; right?

16 A. He was commander of a battalion, and he was in charge of

17 logistics. At the beginning of the aggression, we had to get all our

18 equipment, all our material resources out of the Devet Jugovica barracks

19 and that was the first one that was hit. Those days that is what he was

20 doing. That is the task of the Logistics Battalion anyway.

21 So he stated, I have his statement here, what he saw, what he

22 experienced. If you wish, I can read it out, but it's all here.

23 A. There is no need. For example, I'm just going to read out a

24 particular quote. I hope he said this objectively. He says: "I cannot

25 claim that NATO targeted Hadum mosque on purpose. Perhaps it had to do

Page 45478












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13 English transcripts.













Page 45479

1 with the pilot's imprecision." So he looked at all of that, and he did

2 not want to go that far, to say that they intentionally bombed the mosque

3 and civilian targets. He said that it was perhaps imprecision, the result

4 of inaccuracy, that that was the cause of this destruction.

5 JUDGE KWON: Is it tab 8.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, tab 8. The last but one

7 paragraph. That is where the quotation is that I read out a few moments

8 ago. "I cannot claim that NATO deliberately targeted the Hadum mosque and

9 other civilian structures. Maybe it was the result of inaccuracy or

10 carelessness on the part of the pilots."

11 May I proceed?


13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. On the 26th of March, 1999, you made an order concerning measures

15 in the event of a bombing, and you are saying that the territory of the

16 FRY should not be violated and that we should prevent that. Is that

17 number 9?

18 A. Yes. That's what I wrote. And this is an order of the Pristina

19 Corps, which was adapted to my own unit, of course.

20 So the first thing is to prevent a breakthrough by NATO forces on

21 the attack axes and prevent a violation of the territorial integrity of

22 the FRY, et cetera.

23 Q. We are not going to quote everything, but it also says that what

24 should be prevented is linking up the Siptar forces with NATO forces.

25 A. Yes, that's what I said.

Page 45480

1 Q. Well, that's what you referred to before. And then number 4

2 says: "Preventing terrorist and sabotage operations against commands and

3 units."

4 A. 4 says: "After the initial attacks, commanders command priorities

5 will be the care of casualties, preventing panic, desertion, and criminal

6 activities."

7 Q. Wait a minute. You said preventing panic, desertion, and you

8 haven't read the whole thing out. It also says "and criminal activities"?

9 A. "And criminal activities. Preventing individuals or groups from

10 sowing discord in the unit by subversive behaviour, especially rumours

11 about disobedience, preventing terrorist and sabotage operations against

12 detecting and pre-empting espionage activities."

13 Q. All right. And so on and so forth.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. All right. Just a moment, please. On the 27th of December, 2002,

16 you gave a statement to the Commission for Cooperation which pertains to

17 the activities of your unit on the 1st of April and that has to do with

18 the alleged crimes in Qerim?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. That is in tab 10.

21 A. Yes, I have that tab.

22 Q. All right. It was given in writing. It was translated. Is this

23 your statement, and is it in accordance with what you're saying?

24 A. Yes, that's right. I wrote the statement to the commission on the

25 basis of their request and on the basis of the alleged crime in Qerim. I

Page 45481

1 explained that, I wrote this, and I signed this. And I mentioned the

2 persons who can confirm this and who were there. And at that time I was

3 500 metres away from Qerim.

4 Q. All right. But you have the commander of the 3rd Division, Dusko

5 Vukasinovic, who was right there.

6 A. Yes, and they didn't see anything.

7 Q. You said that just now. His statement -- or, rather, this is the

8 commander of your artillery battalion; is that right?

9 A. Yes, the 3rd Artillery Battalion.

10 Q. Is that the document that is in tab 11?

11 A. Yes. Yes, that's it.

12 Q. Very well. In tab 11A is a statement given by Vlatko Odak, who

13 you also mentioned. He says that the road to Ljug Bunar leads through

14 Qerim neighbourhood, was completely empty, that it was dark, and that they

15 hadn't met anybody.

16 A. I passed the same way on that occasion, and I can confirm that it

17 was completely dark. The road was passable. You couldn't see anything.

18 Q. Very well. Thank you. In tab 12 we have your order dated 2nd of

19 April, 1999. What does it refer to, General?

20 A. It refers to the application of the international law of war. I

21 ordered that all units and all members of units must carry with them the

22 so-called reminder for members of the army of Yugoslavia. This is my

23 copy, and all members of the unit had to carry it with them.

24 I also said that any persons violating the provisions of

25 international law of war shall be reported and shall be subjected to

Page 45482

1 appropriate measures, whereas the military police chief will immediately

2 prosecute such people and turn them over to the closest military court.

3 I also wrote: "Inform all brigade members of this order." And

4 persons responsible for its execution were my Chief of Staff, my

5 assistants, and unit commanders.

6 Q. Thank you, General. In tab 13 we see another order of yours.

7 What does it contain?

8 A. It describes the status of the brigade in that period. I

9 explained yesterday how and where the brigade was deployed until the 9th

10 of April and prior to that date. The date here is the 6th of April, and

11 the order shows where each unit was. It says the 1st Company of the

12 1st Artillery Battalion is in Skivjani. The 2nd Battery of the

13 1st Artillery Battalion in Cabrak --

14 Q. We don't have to explain that here. Does that mean that every

15 time when any of your units changes location an appropriate order has to

16 be issued?

17 A. Correct. No movement of units except in the -- in a limited area

18 can be performed without my approval. Similarly, I had to seek approval

19 from my corps commander to change my location.

20 Q. It speaks about the taking up of positions in new areas in the

21 next document.

22 A. Yes, I issued my artillery battalion commanders appropriate orders

23 to change location. This particular order was to the commander of the

24 3rd Artillery Battalion.

25 Q. All right. Thank you, General. What happened on the 9th of April

Page 45483

1 in the area of Djakovica?

2 A. On the 9th of April there was an attack, the attack, on Kosare.

3 On that occasion Siptar terrorists supported by artillery from Albania

4 attacked our border units in the area of Kosare killing some of my

5 soldiers who were part of a combat group of the 125th Brigade.

6 Q. Was the NATO Air Force active at the time?

7 A. The NATO aviation followed the whole thing, and I showed yesterday

8 how the intensity of their actions, NATO action, coincided with some

9 critical moments such as terrorists attacks.

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Give us a little more detail about that. What do

11 you mean when you say the NATO followed the whole thing, the NATO aviation

12 followed the whole thing?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I showed you yesterday, and I can

14 show it again, that strikes by NATO aviation, especially an A10 plane, an

15 assault plane that was specifically designed to support units, this plane

16 was most active in the area of Kosare and in the border area. It acted

17 from our side against our forces, that is, from the territory of our

18 country practically into the back of our units.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Did the planes drop any bombs?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Both bombs and rockets and

21 cannon-balls, depending on what a particular plane was carrying.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. General, you mentioned this in your book, in tab 2 that we saw

25 yesterday.

Page 45484

1 A. Yes, I describe it in my book because on that occasion one of my

2 soldiers was killed, one officer was wounded, and another soldier got

3 killed as well. I described it in my book, and I can read passages if you

4 wish me to.

5 Q. I will draw your attention to one passage only, and if you think

6 you need to add anything you will be free to do so.

7 On page 149 of your book, and I will quote, it says: "The attack

8 on Kosare from the territory of Albania was getting fiercer and fiercer.

9 The enemy was relying on artillery support of the Albanian army and the

10 fire support of NATO aviation."

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. "Our fighters at Kosare were simply in a vice on the top of

13 Prokletije mountains. From Albania, from the area of Bajram Curiju, the

14 Albanian artillery was firing, and from the back, from the territory of

15 Metohija, from the air, the NATO aviation was acting against them. Their

16 most prominent plane in these attacks was the famous A10."

17 On page 186, as long as we are on this tab, you say somewhere

18 halfway down: "The first attack of NATO aviation against a column of

19 Siptar refugees happened in the neighbourhood of Meja on the 14th of

20 April, 1999 around 1400 hours. It was a whole massacre with a pile of

21 burning rubble. It was not far from our position in the area of Cabrat."

22 A. Right.

23 Q. It goes on to say: "'Check what it's about. Send a team to give

24 first aid to the casualties and report to me in detail,' said my corps

25 commander."

Page 45485

1 A. Yes. My corps commander ordered me to go to the spot, to the

2 scene to see if any assistance is necessary or can be sent and to report

3 to him. I went there and I reported. I described it in detail in this

4 book. Unfortunately, we didn't have a camera to make a film of it. My

5 unit in Djakovica did not have such equipment, but soon after my arrival

6 some cameramen arrived, and I believe there is video footage.

7 Q. But you personally left the scene immediately?

8 A. Yes. I left while smoke was still coming from the corpses and the

9 craters that were left by rockets.

10 Q. What can you tell us about another order of the 10th of April,

11 1999?

12 THE INTERPRETER: Could we please have a tab number before we go

13 on?

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. This is tab 15. It's a brief order, and as far as I can see, it

16 has even been translated.

17 A. Right.

18 Q. So you ordered that all perpetrators of criminal offences should

19 be immediately brought to a competent investigating judge of the Pristina

20 Corps command military court accompanied by a criminal report.

21 A. I also said that unit commanders were responsible to me for the

22 execution of this order.

23 Q. You said that this measure applies to volunteers and conscripts

24 equally.

25 A. Yes. Actually, I said "volunteers-conscripts." Volunteers had

Page 45486

1 the same status in the army.

2 Q. Yes. And then you say: "Unit commanders are responsible to me

3 for the execution of this order."

4 So this is your order of the 10th of April.

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. Thank you, General. And what is the contents of this order

7 devoted to the protection of unit combat deployment in tab 16? Just very

8 briefly.

9 A. The substance of this order is that unit commanders must take all

10 necessary measures to protect units, be it on the march --

11 Q. Do not read from it. Just read paragraph 4.

12 A. "Any women, children, the elderly, and others encountered in the

13 unit combat deployment sector should be -- shall be treated humanely and

14 in line with the principles of the provisions of the international law of

15 war."

16 Q. Thank you. General Lazarevic also brought some orders addressed

17 to you on the 10th of April, 1999. That is tab 17. Do you have it in

18 front of you?

19 A. Yes, I do.

20 Q. It's a very long order that details all the assessments of

21 possible engagement with ground NATO forces. We won't go into it.

22 On page 2, paragraph 6, he says: "Improve combat discipline and

23 the soldierly appearance of Pristina Corps members and prevent misconduct

24 by individuals, looting, murder, et cetera, whilst upholding the

25 reputation of the army through your own conduct."

Page 45487












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Page 45488

1 A. Correct. He also orders implementation of anti-aircraft defence

2 measures. That applies to all units, especially my unit.

3 Q. You issued an order in tab 19. It relates to the maintenance of

4 combat morale.

5 A. Yes. That's my order dated 13th April. It relates to the

6 maintaining and strengthening of combat morale.

7 Q. In point 5 it says: "In the event of an attack by Siptar

8 terrorist forces, they are to be crushed and destroyed quickly and

9 efficiently."

10 A. It goes on to say: Serbian Montenegrin population and citizens of

11 non-Serb nationality who are loyal to our country must be treated

12 correctly and humanely." And again, my subordinate commanders are

13 responsible to me for the implementation of that order.

14 Q. Very well. In tab 20 we see a regular combat report. Is this the

15 usual foremast your combat reports. Point 1, the enemy; point 2, our own

16 forces; point 3, logistical support. To whom did you submit such reports?

17 A. Always to the commander of the Pristina Corps. The form is

18 exactly prescribed. First you cover the enemy, your own forces, then

19 logistical support indicating expenditure of ammunition, expenditure of

20 mines and explosives. Then you make requests, if any, or proposals. You

21 detail the situation on the road. It was our duty to report to superior

22 commands which roads are usable, which roads are passable, and which can

23 be used for supply of ammunition and other resources.

24 Q. In tab 21 we see a criminal report dated 17th April, 1999 against

25 some soldiers. It was submitted to the military prosecutor.

Page 45489

1 JUDGE BONOMY: There seems to be a 21 untranslated and a 21.2.

2 Which one is it? In fact, there's several in 21.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am referring to 21, and there are

4 several documents within this tab.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In fact, this is the complete

6 accompanying documentation that is regularly compiled for every criminal

7 offence.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. 21 is a criminal report, then follow accompanying documents, 21.1,

10 21.2, up to 10. This is the accompanying documentation. We won't go

11 through it all.

12 The substance is a criminal report for the criminal act of rape.

13 JUDGE BONOMY: Can we be clear about what documents we have? I've

14 got nothing in the section that says 21, and then I have an untranslated

15 document in 21.1, and then I seem to have translated documents after that.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have a full set of documents.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Well, let us just look at the titles of these documents and then

19 we'll be able to identify which of them remain untranslated.

20 JUDGE KWON: The index says 21 is a criminal report which is not

21 translated yet.

22 Proceed, Mr. Milosevic.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Just very briefly tell us, we see criminal reports here, Official

25 Notes, statements of the accused and so on. Let me just draw your

Page 45490

1 attention to these medical examinations. They are at the end of this tab.

2 It says on the document 21.10 -- we're not going to read the name

3 of the alleged injured party. It says: "Examination performed at 1700

4 hours on the 17th of April, 1999."

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Two doctors, two specialists signed this. As far as I can see

7 both are --

8 A. Albanian.

9 Q. Dr. Afrim Muhaxhiri, medical doctor, gynaecologist and ultrasound

10 specialist. And another doctor, Hasan Manxhuka, a gynaecologist. We're

11 not going to read the name of the victim, but they performed a detailed

12 examination and they established that this victim that was allegedly raped

13 was a virgin?

14 A. We have complete documentation concerning this case. These

15 soldiers were from my unit, from the 3rd Artillery Battalion. And these

16 soldiers suffered before that in an attack in Batusa. They survived this

17 attack unlike some others.

18 Everything is described in great detail here. They were

19 immediately turned over to the military court in Pristina. I don't know

20 where they were convicted, but it was up to the judicial courts.

21 Q. Very well. Fine.

22 JUDGE BONOMY: You can't tell us what happened in this case,

23 whether there was a conviction?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I cannot, because one of them

25 lives on the territory of Kosovo and Metohija. We can see that here. And

Page 45491

1 I devoted my time more to the victims of war rather than the perpetrators

2 of this. I am very sorry that that happened in my unit, but I didn't

3 consider that it was up to me to investigate. I was very, very strict

4 towards any such cases and perpetrators.

5 JUDGE BONOMY: Perhaps they were innocent. You're not interested

6 in discovering that men whom you trusted as part of your command may have

7 been wrongly accused and were in fact honourable men who were not

8 criminals?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Up until then they were indeed

10 honourable men and were not criminals, but the moment that a criminal

11 report was taken it is up to the courts, and I have no reason to doubt the

12 judicial organs. I believe the courts and the decision they make, the

13 ruling they make, will be the one that prevails.

14 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. General, what are the contents of your order dated the 17th of

17 April and is to be found in tab 23? I see that it has been translated.

18 MR. NICE: It may be 22 or 23, I'm not sure.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 23.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is providing security for the

21 civilian population.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Yes. I wanted you to explain that.

24 A. I wrote my order, and I can read it out. I think that each of the

25 points contained here are important. It says: "Pursuant to the order

Page 45492

1 of the corps command, and in order to prevent or reduce losses among the

2 civilian population caused by the aggressor, I hereby order:

3 "1. That all units in the zone of responsibility of the

4 Djakovica garrison shall take necessary measures to ensure the welfare of

5 the civilian population. To that end, act in coordination with the MUP

6 forces and the Djakovica Municipal Staff in order to promptly inform the

7 civilian population of attacks by the NATO aggressors and the Siptar

8 terrorist forces; provide necessary assistance in sheltering and

9 evacuation; ensure optimal conditions for the relocation and accommodation

10 for civilian population; provide assistance in delivering supplies,

11 organising economic activities and health care; ensure full law and order

12 and security of people and their property; prevent any infringement of the

13 freedom and rights of citizens, unless they threaten the security of the

14 units.

15 "2. Where possible, select representatives or commissioners in

16 the garrison's zone of responsibility to facilitate the more effective

17 organisation and welfare of the population.

18 "3. Work with the local government organs to make a thorough

19 assessment of the size of the civilian population to facilitate the

20 provision of supplies."

21 At that time supplies was the number one problem in Metohija and

22 especially in Djakovica.

23 Q. What was the population of Djakovica at that time?

24 A. Approximately 25.000 inhabitants.

25 Q. Of that number 90-something percent were Albanians, were they not?

Page 45493

1 A. Yes, more than 90 per cent. About 93 per cent, in fact.

2 "4. To be responsible -- treat the civilian population extremely

3 humanely and responsibly and in keeping with the regulations of the

4 Yugoslav army, the international law of war and international humanitarian

5 law. Units commanders in the Djakovica zone of responsibility shall be

6 responsible to me for the implementation of this order. I shall

7 personally take the strictest action to bring to account anybody who

8 disobeys this order."

9 It was sent out to all the units based on Djakovica territory.

10 Q. All right. You issued that order on the 17th of April, 1999.

11 A. Yes, that's right.

12 Q. Thank you, General. You also compiled a report which is to be

13 found in tab 24.

14 A. Yes, that's right.

15 Q. It's a brief report which relates to undertaking measures against

16 perpetrators of crimes.

17 A. Yes. These three men, the perpetrators were first of all

18 arrested, sent to a military court, and then afterwards informed their

19 superior command. So that is the order of events.

20 Q. Is that standard procedure?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. That is to say taking the perpetrators into custody, handing them

23 over to the competent authorities and so on.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you, General. And that is what tab 25 applies to as well.

Page 45494

1 Why did you have to repeat your explanations in greater detail. You

2 informed the corps command in greater detail.

3 A. Because that was customary. That is to say if an event took

4 place, a crime took place in one unit, the corps command sent a circular

5 piece of information to other units to inform them as a preventive measure

6 and as a warning and caution that nothing like that should be repeated.

7 Q. All right. So that -- those are the contents of tab 25.

8 Tab 26, as far as I can see, is once again your order, the command

9 of the 52nd Brigade of the PVO. I'm not going to dwell on that now.

10 Could you just read out point 4 of the order. And the end of

11 point 6.

12 A. "As concerns relations with the civilian population, adhere to

13 the previous orders in every way. Use all means available to

14 comprehensively prevent any threats to the safety of civilians and their

15 property."

16 Q. General, you said: "And completely prevent or comprehensively

17 prevent."

18 A. Yes, that's what it says here. Yes, "comprehensively prevent."

19 Q. So as concerns relations with the civilian population, adhere to

20 the previous orders in every way, use all means available to

21 comprehensively prevent any threats to the safety of civilians and their

22 property."

23 A. Yes, that's right.

24 Q. And now as far as point 6 is concerned. Point 6, please, just the

25 last sentence.

Page 45495

1 A. We're talking about volunteers here who were in the unit as

2 recruits, volunteers who cannot carry out the tasks or any kind of legal

3 action, to return if they cannot carry out their assignments. But it

4 says: "Persons responsible for crimes and other actions shall be handed

5 over to the brigade command NOB so that their responsibility may be

6 established and further steps taken."

7 And may I comment on that. I'd like to say that because they were

8 volunteers who reported people came -- they were 50 year olds sometimes.

9 They'd come to the unit. They can't see very well, can't hear very well,

10 and they're not really very useful to us, so we sent those back. We sent

11 them back from the unit so as not to be ballast and a burden to us. But

12 we checked everybody out before sending them back. We checked whether

13 they had taken part in any criminal acts or any such thing.

14 Q. All right, General. Then point 7. What does point 7 mean?

15 A. It says: "The team tasked in my last order with clearing up the

16 terrain shall continue to carry out clearing up the terrain across the

17 brigade's deployment area."

18 Q. What did this asanacija, clearing up of the terrain mean and

19 imply?

20 A. It meant dealing with animal remains, human remains, any noxious

21 matter or anything else that is detrimental to the human environment and

22 can lead to contamination and so on.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: General, I wasn't clear about your reference to

24 volunteers there. I understood you earlier to say that you did have a

25 certain number of volunteers. You gave us a number who came from the

Page 45496












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Page 45497

1 Republika Srpska, I think, and then you mentioned anyone else who was

2 added at the time would be a reservist. Is this now a third category of

3 volunteer that existed? Who were these people, then, referred to in this

4 order?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think you heard me properly.

6 First of all, I said from Republika Srpska there was just one volunteer.

7 Her name was Dragojanka and she was a nurse. That's the first point.

8 Secondly, all the volunteers that came to us from the unit were

9 from Serbia. Then military conscripts but were not members of the

10 anti-aircraft defence unit. And amongst them -- anti-defence unit. And

11 amongst them they were elderly persons, infirmed persons sometimes. They

12 came to the unit, whereas they weren't actually able physically to meet

13 the demands that a unit would have. So we would send that kind of person

14 back or send them on to another unit where some use was found for them.

15 Our unit was manned by young people because air defence required young

16 people, people who can act quickly, manoeuvre quickly, who can see

17 properly, hear properly, and so on. And they had to be fast in order to

18 able to escape the onslaughts of the airstrikes.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: So does that mean that paragraph 6 in this order

20 refers to the 80 or so volunteers you mentioned earlier that you had?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it does refer to those from the

22 Pristina command. They were brought in with all the documents and handed

23 over to the unit and deployed there.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: Thank you.

25 JUDGE KWON: General, in the first paragraph of the same document,

Page 45498

1 which is tab 26, you -- the document we are looking at right now, tab 26.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

3 JUDGE KWON: You expressed your concerns as the reason why you are

4 giving this order. Among them is an interesting passage. In the middle

5 of the first paragraph you said you're concerned about the physical

6 appearance, particularly of the reserve forces, is not consistent with the

7 norm, which is damaging to the reputation of the Yugoslav army. Also,

8 there have been instances of criminal activities by individuals which has

9 had an exceptionally negative impact on the overall security situation.

10 So if you could give me some more examples of physical appearances

11 which is damaging the reputation of VJ. What do you mean? What did you

12 mean by it?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, what I meant by it is this:

14 People who were getting on in years, who had been issued equipment as

15 soldiers after they left their -- the army, the uniforms were no longer

16 the right size, some of them were dirty and old. They might have spent

17 several days in one position during the war, and it was difficult to

18 replace their equipment, their uniforms, to keep them clean and tidy, and

19 others whose uniforms didn't fit them. So when these people turned up,

20 and as I said they did come to Djakovica while they were still able to

21 call their families and contact their families, they presented quite a

22 different appearance than the soldiers. The soldiers were the ones who

23 wore new uniforms. They fitted them better. They looked better in their

24 uniforms. They were younger and so on. So they struck a better

25 appearance. Just like myself. I'm sure that a uniform suited me much

Page 45499

1 better which was younger than it does now.

2 JUDGE KWON: Can I take it from this statement that there might

3 have been some volunteers who wore special insignia which was different

4 from the normal one or who carried some knives? Do you exclude such

5 possibility?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Had there been people like that it

7 would have been set out in the preamble. If you look at this preamble,

8 the description there relates to any acts that might take place or might

9 have taken place in some other unit. And I explained a moment ago that

10 information about rape, for example, a rape, an instance of rape that took

11 place in my unit was sent out to other units, a circular piece of

12 information as a warning and caution to prevent such things from happening

13 in their area of responsibility. So it was sent out to the continue

14 corps. And there were no other uniforms and the uniforms worn by the

15 Yugoslav army and police. Uniforms might be better, not so good, older,

16 newer, faded uniforms, even torn uniforms. But all the uniforms were of

17 the same type, the same type of uniform.

18 JUDGE BONOMY: The only example you've given in response to

19 Judge Kwon's question relates to uniforms. Is it not strange that that's

20 not actually mentioned? It's physical appearance of the reserve forces.

21 It's not the state of the uniforms of the reserve forces that's mentioned.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Personal appearance depends on one's

23 natural appearance, one's clothing, one's haircut. There were those who

24 hadn't had a haircut, who were untidy. And given the circumstances in

25 which they lived and worked, there were of course people who weren't tidy.

Page 45500

1 There were those who had dirty boots, if they happened to come in from

2 such area which was muddy, for example. So all that goes to make up one's

3 personal appearance.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll adjourn for 20 minutes.

5 --- Recess taken at 12.24 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 12.46 p.m.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic, continue.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Perhaps there is a bit of confusion in terms of what personal

10 appearance implies, General. So can you just tell us the following: For

11 example, when a soldier does not wear a cap, does that mean infringing

12 upon personal appearance?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And if is unshaven?

15 A. Yes. Any kind of untidiness in terms of the uniform they wear.

16 Q. Does all of that belong to personal appearance? You also

17 described other things like dirty boots or dirty or unkempt clothes?

18 A. Even when a button is not buttoned. That is not considered to be

19 proper from a military point of view.

20 Q. In paragraph 7 you spoke about clearing up the terrain and you

21 explained what you meant by it, asanacija. Now, in relation to that,

22 there is a document in tab 27. Since you explained that this clearing up

23 the terrain means removing everything that may be hazardous to health or

24 in any other way harm the population, what have you got here in tab 27?

25 You sent this urgently to the Pristina Corps command, a report.

Page 45501

1 A. That is report that my chief of ABHO submitted and I signed it.

2 Q. Just tell us exactly what it means, chief of ABHO. Perhaps they

3 don't understand.

4 A. This is an excerpt for nuclear, biological, chemical weapons.

5 Everything that can harm the health of human beings.

6 Q. So what does it say here? In the area of Osek Hilja, three

7 kilometres north of Djakovica.

8 A. In the cellar of a house a certain quantity of flour was found,

9 about ten tonnes. The flour had been delivered to the inhabitants

10 belonging to the Siptar ethnic minority as part of a humanitarian aid

11 shipment by the Mother Teresa humanitarian organisation. The flour was

12 contaminated using a DR M-3 radiation detector and found to be

13 radioactively contaminated 1 to 3 Microgrey per hour. It was later

14 established that three tonnes had been issued to a bakery to make bread.

15 Steps were taken to stop the production of the bread and the flour was

16 withdrawn from circulation. "The flour is being withdrawn and a pit is

17 being dug at the town rubbish bump to bury the flour. The pit will be

18 visibly marked."

19 Q. Does all of that fall been the purview of this clearing up of the

20 terrain, taking care of the health of the population, et cetera?

21 A. Yes. In the brigade, I had a chief of ABHO who controlled every

22 activity, and after every explosion after bomb or a rocket he went to see

23 whether there was higher radiation or not, and that is where -- that is

24 how we found out that there was more radiation.

25 Q. It was my understanding that as for your statement in tab 28 and

Page 45502

1 tab 29 is something that has already been admitted into evidence.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I assume that is the

3 case because we dwelled on that when looking at those statements of

4 Nik Peraj. So then I refer to these exhibits, and I hope they were

5 admitted. Thank you.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: They have already been admitted. They have

7 already been admitted, yes.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Very well.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. On the same subject, your comrades in arms, Vlatko Odak, Vlatko

11 Vukovic, Vukadinovic, and Rakovic gave statements. They are in tab 30.

12 30, 30A, 30B. All of these statements pertain to --

13 A. The unit that was adjacent to my unit.

14 Q. All right. These statements of theirs, do they correspond with

15 your own testimony here in relation to these events that they describe and

16 that you already spoke about?

17 A. Absolutely.

18 MR. NICE: Your Honour, it's not an acceptable method of getting

19 evidence in. I'm going to, of course, object to these statements for

20 other reasons. Either there's something in them that the accused wishes

21 to draw to our attention or they shouldn't really be admitted. If he's

22 simply saying that these statements are identical with his own account, I

23 suppose the question arises why but in one way or another pretty

24 unsatisfactory in my respectful submission.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.

Page 45503

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Will you be seeking to have these statements

2 admitted, Mr. Milosevic?

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I think they should be

4 admitted. They have to do with the same event that General Djosan

5 testified about. These are his comrades in arms. They spoke of the same

6 matter that has to do with Meja and Korenica. And the witness already

7 testified about that, showed the map, et cetera. If I'm supposed to go

8 through each and every one of them I can do it, but I thought that they

9 could be identified, that he knew about the statements, that he read them.

10 This is in his exhibits. They're authentic, and there's no discrepancy

11 between what they say and what he said.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]


14 MR. KAY: The procedure for admission of this kind of evidence

15 would be Rule 92 bis, quite plainly, as they're statements by another

16 party who could be a witness, and they're cumulative of this testimony.

17 Mr. Milosevic has here Mr. Tomanovic at the moment. It would be quite

18 simple to put in a covering filing and serve the matter on the Prosecution

19 in that way. It can be admissible but it depends how.

20 JUDGE BONOMY: One question, Mr. Kay, was whether in the evidence

21 of General Delic anything of a similar nature was admitted.

22 MR. KAY: No.

23 JUDGE BONOMY: I didn't think so.

24 JUDGE KWON: Statements given to the commission.

25 MR. KAY: I couldn't remember. There may be. I may be wrong, but

Page 45504

1 my -- my recollection is no. I don't know whether Mr. Nice has a

2 recollection.

3 MR. NICE: Well, my recollection is that, as I said earlier today,

4 I think, or yesterday, that the statements have not been admitted.

5 Indeed, there's been a very major exercise being undertaken to deal with

6 exhibits marked for identification, and that's enabled us to focus on one

7 or two exhibits that may be problematic, and I think the position is that

8 the small recently produced maps have been admitted, I'm not quite sure on

9 what basis, but that the statements have not been admitted, other than the

10 statements by any witness himself, Delic, and now this witness.

11 MR. KAY: Can I assist? I think Odak is going to be a witness

12 fairly soon, so that deals with this report.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm not sure that we have not admitted statements

14 like this before.

15 MR. KAY: In relation to the maps, I think as a way of

16 presentation of testimony they're very useful, and I can't see any

17 objection to that as an aid. Plenty of examples in the Prosecution case

18 where we had schematic diagrams put in.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: If you're going to call this -- if you're going

20 to call the maker of this statement, Colonel Odak, then you might as well

21 wait for him.

22 JUDGE KWON: But I wonder why he needs to call Odak again when we

23 have this general.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll deal with the admissibility of this

Page 45505












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 45506

1 statement shortly.

2 Proceed, Mr. Milosevic.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Just in relation to these statements, have you read Odak's,

6 Vukovic's, Vukadinovic's, and Ratkovic's statements?

7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note the witness's microphone is

8 off. We cannot hear him.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Are there any contradictions in terms of what they stated in

11 relation to your statement?

12 A. No. They just go into greater detail because they were on site

13 but there is no discrepancy. After all, I could not have written a

14 statement that would have been contrary to the knowledge of my immediate

15 subordinates there.

16 Q. Thank you. On the 30th of April, you compiled a regular combat

17 report, and it is contained in tab 31. Is this a regular combat report,

18 the kind that is regularly submitted, or does it have something special

19 that you would like to indicate?

20 A. This is regular combat report, the kind we sent in every day.

21 Here I inform the corps command that I decided to transfer part of my

22 units, and I'm notifying them that reconnaissance will be carried out in

23 terms of the new command post. As always, we talk about the ammunition

24 spent, the weapons used, et cetera. So it doesn't really differ from

25 other such reports.

Page 45507

1 Q. Among the documents is the information you sent on the 3rd of May,

2 1999, and it has to do with the -- or, rather, this is tab 32. What is

3 this about very briefly?

4 A. The event in Skivjani, or rather, in Osek Hilja, where there was

5 an attempted rape, a soldier, attempted rape, and I took certain measures.

6 Here it is stated exactly what kind of action was taken against the man

7 who attempted rape. He was handed over to a military court. His

8 commanding officer was punished and so on. Those are the measures that I

9 took as commander. As soon as he was handed over to the military court,

10 then regular procedure follows, a criminal report, et cetera.

11 Q. Muharem Ibraj gentleman testified about this event here except

12 that he did not have this information, but it matches.

13 A. The entire brigade was informed about all of this.

14 Q. You compiled a report on the 4th of May. It has to do with the

15 civilian population, as far as I can see. What is the content of this

16 document?

17 A. This is actually a report to the command of the Pristina Corps,

18 and we informed them about measures to protect the civilian population.

19 It says: "Based on the above-mentioned order, we hereby inform you that

20 the civilian population has been accommodated in the following sectors:

21 "The villages of Peskote, Osek Hilja, et cetera, where the

22 civilian population is, then the town of Djakovica has a population of

23 35.000 to 40.000, and there are another 20.000 to 25.000 inhabitants in

24 villages. And that the possible reception areas for newly displaced

25 persons are in the Bistrazin village sector since the NATO airstrikes were

Page 45508

1 still on."

2 Q. You say also in conclusion that you have taken all other measures

3 mentioned in your order concerning the protection of the civilian

4 population. That is a quotation from the end.

5 A. Yes, that's right.

6 Q. Thank you, General. You have another regular command -- combat

7 report in tab 34. It also talks about the enemy, our forces. Is there

8 anything characteristic here?

9 A. Yes. Cabrat is targeted here. I said that we reported about

10 everything that affected our unit, and this deals with it chronologically.

11 At 1840, two rocket projectiles. At 1852 hours, again two rocket

12 projectiles. This corroborates the map that I explained yesterday.

13 Then further on we inform the command that we also fired at the

14 air force but that there were no effects. In this way, we justified the

15 materiel resources used or, rather, the materiel used. I say we fire at

16 aircraft and that we used 1.240 bullets but that there was no effect. Our

17 obligation was to give reports on materiel all the time because of the

18 fact that it was very hard to provide adequate supplies to units.

19 Q. General, what does the document in tab 35 pertain to?

20 A. I wrote this document, and it also has to do with improving the

21 appearance of soldiers of the army of Yugoslavia, specifically our units.

22 It would happen that when soldiers went on furlough they would go into

23 restaurants and coffee bars with -- wearing uniforms, with weapons in

24 their hands, and in this way they behaved improperly. That is why my

25 order was to prohibit their entry into hotels, high-class hotels where

Page 45509

1 foreign guests were staying, diplomats, et cetera, so that there would not

2 be extra pressure in this way.

3 Again, my order states that the commander is in charge of having

4 it seen through, et cetera.

5 Q. Tab -- tab 36. It only relates to communication through letters.

6 A. I think it's very important to say this: Since we had a lot of

7 soldiers and reservists who destroyed the repeater -- with the destruction

8 of the repeater, rather, and damage to the television building and other

9 damage remained totally cut off from their families. I instructed that

10 they should write letters to be delivered to their parents to ensure

11 continued communication, because sometimes parents would come to Djakovica

12 having no clue where their children were. So this was to ensure

13 communication and to reassure the parents.

14 Q. In tab -- let me see. Tab 37 contains an order, your order that

15 pertains to certain measures. Which measures? Would you please explain

16 it.

17 A. Ensuring work order and discipline. I issued this order, as I

18 have always insisted, that every measure possible be used to maintain an

19 adequate order of -- level of order and discipline, to prevent criminal

20 offences and violations, to maintain work and discipline at a maximum

21 level, as well as to prevent self-willed use of motor vehicles outside of

22 combat disposition but also within the framework of combat disposition.

23 Everybody was able to drive vehicles but only as prescribed by the combat

24 disposition of their unit.

25 Prevent and completely eradicate unauthorised use of motor

Page 45510

1 vehicles. That's number 3. And then make maximum use of the Military

2 Police Platoon to establish order, check general security and maintain

3 traffic security on roads, particularly on approaches to Djakovica, in the

4 town and villages.

5 This was submitted to all the unit commanders and they were

6 responsible for execution.

7 Q. Thank you. In number 38 we say an order from General Lazarevic

8 that you received. It says here subordinate commanding officer, brigade

9 commander. What does it relate to?

10 A. It has to do with the fact that there was increased incidence of

11 attacks by Siptar terrorists groups against columns of the army of

12 Yugoslavia, and units frequently suffered losses during such attacks.

13 Mines were laid on the road in most cases and resulting losses were heavy.

14 I saw with my own eyes how mines were laid inside the asphalt so that it

15 was practically indiscernible.

16 Q. In tab 39, there's some sort of warning also sent by General

17 Lazarevic. What does it pertain to?

18 A. It follows from the previous order and warns against the most

19 dangerous roads, access roads to Metohija mainly, that were used as supply

20 route.

21 Q. Very well. Follows a report on security and political situation

22 that we will not dwell upon, but there is also a list of casualties from

23 bombing compiled by Dr. Stanojevic, specialist of radiology. What kind of

24 list is this? How did these people die?

25 A. This is the list of names of people who were the victims of the

Page 45511

1 previous day's bombing in Meja, and whenever we were able to identify the

2 corpses that were not completely incinerated, we listed their names. The

3 victims were placed in the Djakovica hospital, and we see the names of 43

4 people that were identified, people who were killed in Meja. They all

5 come from surrounding populated areas, Fsaj, Molic, Sismon, Racaj,

6 Glodjan, et cetera. It's mainly women and children.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: You complain about time, but I observe that you

10 have gone past the estimated time, your estimated time. In that regard --

11 let me -- in that regard, I have to say that we will have the Status

12 Conference tomorrow morning, in the first half of tomorrow morning.

13 That's the Status Conference relating to the use of time.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. General, did you hold in your hands this report --

16 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Milosevic did not give a tab number. We

17 have no reference.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: What tab is that? 41. 41.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Tab 41. No, I did not exhibit this

20 here. It's your exhibit.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. I wanted to ask the general is this final report submitted to the

23 prosecutor to be reviewed concerning the NATO campaign against Yugoslavia?

24 Do you have this report in front of you?

25 A. Yes, do I.

Page 45512

1 Q. I just want you to tell us as a specialist --

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, what number is this?

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I did not include it in my exhibits.

4 It's your document.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: How can we find it, by what reference?

6 MR. NICE: I'm sorry, I'm completely mystified. I think the

7 accused is suggesting that this is a document that's been produced by the

8 Prosecution. If he or the witness, who has obviously come prepared for

9 this, if he hands that document I might be able to establish whether we

10 can find it.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please. This is a document

12 titled -- it's an official document of your institution. It's

13 called "Final report submitted to the Prosecutor by a commission set up to

14 review the campaign, the bombing campaign, by NATO against Yugoslavia."

15 It explains various actions.

16 MR. NICE: It's not a document of the court or those prosecuting

17 this case at this moment. If the accused wants such a document to be

18 available, it's simply got to make it available in the usual way for us to

19 look at. They don't sit here on shelves waiting to be pulled out, and I

20 don't know where I can find this document rapidly now. And we certainly

21 can't deal with it with the accused leafing through it and decide what

22 line to look at at the moment.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I hope the witness can put it

24 on the overhead projector and just give us his professional observations

25 regarding what is written.

Page 45513

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is it in English or B/C/S?

2 MR. NICE: I --

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What I have is in B/C/S.

4 MR. NICE: I must say it's beginning to sound a bit as though

5 we're reaching that habitual terminal flourish where a general opinion is

6 required from a witness on some issue or other that may or may not be of

7 interest or relevance. I'm a bit cautious about this, and I would invite

8 the Chamber to be similarly.

9 If this is a document that emanated from the Prosecution dealing

10 with the possibility of NATO being pursued by this court, then any opinion

11 on it from this witness is unlikely to be of any value whatsoever. But we

12 have to know what the document is first. We can't deal with it in this

13 way.

14 MR. KAY: I think we're dealing with the report by Madam Del Ponte

15 in relation to investigation of NATO war crimes in the bombing of

16 Yugoslavia. That's the document we're dealing with.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: What do you say you're going to make of this

18 document, Mr. Milosevic? There's a suspicion that it might be

19 non-forensic.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know what kind of

21 suspicion there is, but I wanted to hear the opinion of General Djosan,

22 because his speciality is in air defence and the activities mentioned

23 here. NATO action was precisely from the air, so I wanted to hear what he

24 thinks about the claims in this report.

25 If you believe it's irrelevant, maybe you want to tell me that you

Page 45514












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13 English transcripts.













Page 45515

1 don't want to hear it because nobody seems to want to hear anything about

2 NATO crimes here.

3 JUDGE ROBINSON: I want to find out first, Mr. Milosevic, what the

4 document says. What does the document purport to do? And then I'll

5 determine whether the witness can assist us.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, here's what it says: In the

7 contents we see that it's about basic data, mandate, programme of work,

8 general issues, environmental damage, use of projectiles containing

9 deleted uranium, use of cluster bombs. These are all issues dealt with by

10 the witness. He now even showed a map where we can see where exactly

11 projectiles with depleted uranium were used. He spoke about the use of

12 cluster bombs and so on.

13 I'm not going to ask him about the legal issues involved in the

14 choice of targets or legal regulations.

15 There is also talk about the number of targets, number of victims,

16 the general objectives of the campaign, specific incidents, attack on a

17 passenger train, attack on the convoy in Djakovica where this witness was,

18 attack on the radio television building, attack on the Chinese Embassy,

19 Korisa village, et cetera.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Very well. We'll consider it.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. General, please --

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: No. I said we'll consider it.

24 JUDGE BONOMY: I'd like to ask one question.

25 Mr. Kay, the accused described the document as a final report

Page 45516

1 submitted to the Prosecutor by a commission set up to review the bombing

2 campaign by NATO against Yugoslavia. You understand it to be a report by

3 the Prosecutor. Now, we need to be clear, first of all, what the document

4 is.

5 MR. KAY: That's the document that was in my mind that I took it

6 to be from the references made by the accused. Maybe he could clarify

7 that, whether it is the report by Mrs. Del Ponte containing the

8 information from NATO.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's the official report. There is

11 no signature here, but it was published, it says here, by the United

12 Nations International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia. It's

13 the final report made by them when the idea appeared to review possible

14 crimes by NATO and issued that covered -- that were dealt with by this

15 witness. The claim made here is that nobody is responsible. The pilots

16 did not know what they were targeting, and they were not informed as to

17 what was being done.

18 So I just want you to see how very serious war crimes committed by

19 NATO in Kosovo and all of Yugoslavia are treated here, together with

20 certain events mentioned by this witness, and I wanted the witness to

21 point out certain things in this report that seem absolutely untenable.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] For instance, Mr. Robinson ...

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Kay, I'm wondering -- and Mr. Nice, I'm

Page 45517

1 wondering whether this document could come in in any event being

2 apparently a United Nations document.

3 MR. KAY: It's certainly consistent with a number of the other

4 documents --

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. Kay.

6 MR. KAY: I'm sorry. It's certainly consistent with a number of

7 the other official documents that have been brought into the case. And if

8 the Prosecution are prepared to agree that and that's what the accused

9 wants, then there can be no objection as to admissibility as an agreed

10 document.

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: But from what I heard, there are aspects that are

12 considered to be -- that bear on the case, targets and matters of that

13 kind. Of course, crimes committed by NATO per se are not before this

14 court, but it might contain information that is useful.

15 MR. KAY: It does have information from -- of general availability

16 on the NATO website of the bombing campaign.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: I'm not sure that this witness can take it any

18 further. I'll consider whether he can admit it as a document.

19 Mr. Nice.

20 MR. NICE: Then I suggest we put this back, it doesn't come

21 through this witness. I'm have another look at the document overnight, if

22 I may, and perhaps we can revert to it tomorrow.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I just happened to

24 open this. I can hope it at any page. The witness testified about the

25 events in Djakovica, and I have to prove here, for example, what happened

Page 45518

1 on the 14th of April. I have to show that. It says: "Attack on

2 Djakovica," and this was compiled - how shall I put this? - by the office

3 of Mr. Nice and Mrs. Del Ponte. That's their report.

4 The attack on Djakovica on the 14th of April. And then it says

5 what our authorities said about it. And then in point 64 it says NATO

6 first of all denied it, then later on recognised responsibility for the

7 attack. That is their finding, theirs.

8 In view of the facts NATO planes, NATO strikes that were flying at

9 1500 feet to avoid Yugoslav air defence attacked two convoys of vehicles,

10 including civilian vehicles, and they confirmed that planes were flying at

11 1500 feet, which is -- 50.000 feet, which is five kilometres, and they

12 were able to follow the target with the bare eye. And the object was to

13 destroy Serbian military forces, and it is quite clear that what they did

14 was in fact destroy --

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, just a minute.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's Meja. That's Meja. We've

17 taken so much trouble about discussing this Meja business our eyes popped

18 out.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, we are not allowing you to utilise

21 the document to demonstrate war crimes by NATO, but we will allow you to

22 utilise the document in relation to the kind of matter that you just

23 raised.

24 So proceed.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 45519

1 Q. General, just shortly indicate just some of the places in the

2 documents that you consider to be directly related to what you were doing

3 in Kosovo and Metohija.

4 A. I would first of all like to say and to apologise, in fact. Had

5 you allowed me to present -- to tell you what I'd done in my career, I am

6 quite certain that now you would decide that I am properly placed to be

7 able to testify about this. I asked you that a moment ago. I wanted to

8 tell you of my career development because it was vital for you to know

9 where I worked and what I did, and then you would realise that I can spoke

10 about this and I'm properly placed to do so.

11 Q. Well, tell us the essential points, please.

12 A. Yes, I can do that. I studied this report in detail, and what can

13 be seen and what is vital is the following. Of course, I'd need a map.

14 The first point is that the USA and France did not ratify the additional

15 protocol and most combat actions --

16 MR. NICE: It's already way outside --

17 JUDGE BONOMY: I want to make my position on this abundantly clear

18 if you would allow me to do so.

19 The accused has clearly indicated a non-forensic purpose for

20 leading this evidence, but at the same time has referred to things which

21 are relevant and could be led as evidence via this document, but plainly

22 having got permission from the Court to lead some evidence, he has set

23 about trying to elicit from the present witness expert evidence. That's

24 why the witness persistently tells us -- he wants to tell us about his

25 career, so he can justify his position as an expert.

Page 45520

1 There is a process for conducting and presenting expert evidence,

2 and that's not what I understood this Bench to be allowing Mr. Milosevic

3 to do, and I therefore do not think the commencement of this witness's

4 account of the report falls within the order that we just made allowing

5 evidence to be led from it.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Quite so, Mr. Milosevic. If you cannot lead

7 evidence that falls within the parameters of the ruling that I made, then

8 you will not be allowed to utilise the document. And you have the

9 capacity to make the distinction.

10 MR. NICE: And if the document concerned is in 91 numbered

11 paragraphs, then it may be a document I can assist with to the extent of

12 making one English-language version available for the overhead projector.

13 If it's not in 91 numbered paragraphs --

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 91 paragraphs, yes. That's it, the

15 one with 91 paragraphs. That's the important thing.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just Kwon was pointing out it was really the

17 witness who started off on the wrong track. I think the question itself

18 might have been proper.

19 JUDGE BONOMY: Well, perhaps the question can be construed as

20 proper, but when one looks at the end of the accused's submission about

21 his reasons for leading this evidence, it's plain that he was intending to

22 go beyond what the order of the Court has allowed him to do.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: I have made it plain to Mr. Milosevic that he'll

24 not be allowed to do that. So within the confines of the ruling, you may

25 lead this witness as to the document.

Page 45521

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation].

3 Q. General, turn to page 29, please.

4 MR. NICE: Paragraphs numbers will be easier because it's the

5 English --

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is paragraph 63.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation].

8 Q. Does the title says "attack on the convoy in Djakovica on the 14th

9 of April, 1999"?

10 A. Yes, it does. That's what it says.

11 Q. Now, is there mention several times of Meja and the suffering of

12 women, children, and elderly persons?

13 A. Yes, that's right.

14 Q. And they're quoting from the book, our white book, NATO War Crimes

15 in Yugoslavia, and say that it's about 73 persons killed and 36 wounded.

16 That was what had been established at that time. Can that be seen?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. So the village of Meja, first of all, and then in other locations

19 later on. And paragraph 64, does it say NATO initially denied this, that

20 is the position of this institution, but later acknowledged responsibility

21 for this attack? Is that what it says?

22 A. Yes, that's right.

23 Q. And NATO established here that it was an area which in previous

24 days Yugoslav special police forces of the MUP were conducting ethnic

25 cleansing operations over the preceding days. Is that what it says?

Page 45522

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And then this was taken as an explanation, the killing of several

3 dozen men, women, and children.

4 A. Yes, that's right.

5 Q. Do you remember that event, General?

6 A. Yes. I was very close by when that event took place. Meja is

7 below Cabrak and I saw two planes flying past. There were planes flying

8 past all the time. And immediately after that an explosion was heard, and

9 as I explained a moment ago, pursuant to an order from the corps commander

10 I set off in that direction in a vehicle and there was a real massacre

11 that had taken place. You could see lots of tractors and carts and people

12 burnt to an singe. And the head of that column was just one adult male

13 leading the column, and I talked to him, and he confirmed that in our

14 conversation, and that is set out in detail in my book. But the

15 conversation went as follows: When I arrived we greeted each other. He

16 was a tall man. He spoke excellent Serbian. And when I asked him what

17 had happened, he said that he had seen two planes and heard them and shown

18 the direction they had flown in, a direction which coincided with what my

19 reconnaissance men had seen in the airspace, and we could see that -- or,

20 rather, he was about 100 or 50 metres away from the beginning of the

21 column which fell victim.

22 I asked him what happened next, and he said, "I saw the planes,

23 and I heard the explosions, and after that this is what happened. Look at

24 what's happened," he said. However, one hour later when the television

25 crew turned up, he completely changed his testimony. There was no more

Page 45523

1 mention of planes. He didn't mention any planes, any explosion. All he

2 said was that something had happened and that he was surprised what could

3 have happened, what it could have been. And at the journalists'

4 insistence when asked whether they might have been planes, what he said

5 was, "Well, perhaps they were or perhaps they were, and even if they were,

6 who knows whose planes they were?"

7 However, the event that I saw at Meja remains deeply embedded in

8 my memory because it was such a tragic event, and I just couldn't believe

9 anything like that happening. It was just a dreadful site to behold. I

10 describe it in my book, and I informed the corps commander and before that

11 teams from the city hospital turned up because not everybody was killed.

12 Some people reached hospital and died there. Some survived.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, next question.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Here in paragraph 54 it is stated that there were 38.400 combat

16 sorties, flights, strikes. Does that correspond to our figures, that

17 there were that many strikes, airstrikes? Sorties.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, sorties.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they mention all the sorties by

20 planes.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. I'm asking you whether that number coincides with our figures.

23 We looked at the tables in tab 3 which contain the sorties, et cetera,

24 number of sorties. Does that correspond to NATO's figures?

25 A. Yes, they do largely coincide. In 95 per cent of the cases the

Page 45524

1 figures are the same, but they mention also sorties that were not sorties

2 above the territory of our country with AWACS and systems and so on. But

3 the number of planes flying on our territory, the figures agree there.

4 Q. This report which says there was an error which resulted in the

5 attack of a passenger train because the train was moving very quickly and

6 the pilot couldn't see it. Does that ring true? Is it 58, paragraph 58.

7 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues]... question. Doing

8 exactly what the Court warned him not to do.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. General, you spoke about the bombing. Take a look at paragraph 74

11 on page 34 now, please. The transformer stations are mentioned and how

12 they were attacked. Did you have any information about the targeting of

13 power plants, water supply systems, and so on, features that were

14 important for life and work in Kosovo?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Well, why did you say that there was no electricity in Djakovica?

17 What was the reason?

18 A. Well, that could have been one of the reasons why there was a

19 power cut too.

20 Q. Now, those facilities, those features, the electrical supply

21 system, for example, and others, could they be the key control elements in

22 the air defence system, uniform system of air defence?

23 A. No. They served the civilian population because each unit of ours

24 had its own generator. So the destruction of power facilities could not

25 influence the work of our units. Even the smallest army unit has its own

Page 45525

1 generator. So this wouldn't have affected him -- them. And the detriment

2 was exclusively to the civilian population. It harmed them.

3 Q. All right, General. I won't pursue this document anymore.

4 Is there anything else before I wind up in the report that you

5 testified about that I failed to mention?

6 A. Well, I'd like to mention depleted uranium. When I started my

7 testimony --

8 Q. You showed us a map yesterday of places which were targeted with

9 depleted uranium.

10 A. Yes. And I state that using depleted uranium on targets created

11 the greatest possible propaganda amongst the Albanian population to make

12 up their minds to leave. Propaganda was launched linked to that, because

13 it is common knowledge what effects depleted uranium has, and there was

14 news and rumours going about, especially that they wouldn't be able to

15 have children.

16 Q. And that's not far from the truth is it?

17 A. No, you're right. If you look at the map, then depleted uranium

18 was used to target urban areas and areas populated by Albanians. And I

19 have studied the time of the semi-disintegration of uranium, 238. It is

20 4.7 billion years. That's the time it would take. And at the end, in

21 conclusion, it says that that would not be -- not that much time is needed

22 and it wouldn't be that terrible.

23 Q. All right. Well, let's not remain on that document anymore.

24 You have warned me, Mr. Robinson, that I overstepped my time, so I

25 will end there.

Page 45526

1 But I just want to ask you one more thing within Count 53 of the

2 indictment where it speaks of a planned systematic campaign of terror,

3 et cetera, et cetera, whether you knew anything about those plans,

4 campaigns, and terror which allegedly were supposed to have been effected

5 over the Albanians -- Kosovo Albanian civilians living in Kosovo.

6 As a Yugoslav army officer, did you ever receive orders to deport

7 any Albanian or heard of any order like that in any roundabout way

8 perhaps?

9 A. None of that. I never heard of anything like that. I never

10 learnt of anything like that, nor was I aware of anything like that,

11 anything with respect to deportation at all.

12 Q. And do you have any knowledge or awareness of the fact of whether

13 there was any deliberate killing, even KLA members let alone civilians?

14 A. No. No knowledge or awareness of that kind.

15 Q. Thank you, General. I have no further questions for you.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I would have got

17 through this sooner had we not dwelt so long on some issues.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Had you not dwelt so long on some issues,

19 Mr. Milosevic.

20 Tomorrow morning the first half an hour we'll have the Status

21 Conference, as I indicated before.

22 In view of the fact that there is a sitting this afternoon, we'll

23 deal with the admission of the tabs first thing tomorrow morning.

24 MR. NICE: Sorry. You're dealing with the tabs tomorrow morning,

25 are you?

Page 45527


2 MR. NICE: Your Honour, as to the statements from the VJ

3 commission, I pressed the Chamber not to make any decision about those

4 until I concluded the cross-examination. My position remains that these

5 are documents produced for the purposes of litigation, therefore they

6 offend your own rule as to admissibility, and even though they may be

7 documents of nil or very low value, if they come in without the witness

8 being called, I'm going to press for their exclusion. There are

9 particular matters I want to raise, not least in light of one of the

10 documents I've seen now through the tabs of this witness, and I want to

11 deal with that in cross-examination as soon as I can.

12 JUDGE BONOMY: The only ones affected by that are number 8, I

13 think, and 30; is that right?.

14 MR. NICE: Yes, there are some in 30. And, indeed, I hadn't

15 checked whether 8's the only other one but --

16 JUDGE KWON: 8, 11, 11A.

17 JUDGE BONOMY: 11 is Vukasinovic.

18 MR. NICE: And Odak, Vukovic, yes, all of those. But I would ask

19 the Chamber to put back any decision until the end of the evidence

20 altogether.

21 The Chamber may remember that at one stage I asked or invited the

22 Chamber to consider allowing written submissions on what were called the

23 VJ commission documents.

24 JUDGE KWON: And those kinds of statements were marked for

25 identification --

Page 45528

1 MR. NICE: That's right.

2 JUDGE KWON: -- in Delic.

3 MR. NICE: That's right, yes. And we haven't put in written

4 submissions. Indeed, we still haven't got the whole document translated

5 because it doesn't rank as a sufficient priority, but it's an important

6 issue in our submission.

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: We will adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00 a.m.

8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

9 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 20th day

10 of October, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.