International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1351

1 Thursday, 2 August 2001

2 [Further Appearance]

3 [Open session]

4 --- Upon commencing at 12.30 p.m.

5 [The accused is present in court]

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are now going to proceed to

7 the initial appearance of the accused, Mr. Milomir Stakic, in relation to

8 the various counts, new counts, because after all, the indictment has been

9 amended. But as we have discussed the issue, we have to pay extreme

10 caution to the way we use certain terms.

11 Mr. Lukic, let me ask you this: Do you agree to having only the

12 counts read out without the entire text being read out? --

13 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honours, we agree.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Fine. Thank you very much. You

15 may sit down.

16 We are not going to read again Articles 20 and 21 of the Statute

17 or Rule 62 of the Rules that had been done before. I suppose you remember

18 all the rights you are entitled to.

19 I therefore turn to Dr. Stakic. Please stand up. As I stated

20 before, Mr. Stakic, we're now going to have the initial appearance, and we

21 are going to ask you whether you enter a plea of guilty or not guilty.

22 But before doing so, I have other questions to put to you.

23 Did you receive the amended indictment in your own language? Your

24 microphone, please.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in the break, my

Page 1352

1 Defence counsel briefly acquainted me with the amended indictment. I had

2 not seen it before that.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. And the indictment was

4 served in your own language, was it?

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, but my Defence

6 counsel translated it for me.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Fine. Anyway, I'm going to ask

8 you this: Did you understand the contents, the meaning of the

9 indictment?

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In essence, yes.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And you can confirm that you

12 were able to discuss with your lawyer?

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. We were able to

14 discuss it in the break.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Now, please pay attention to

16 this question: Are you in a position today to tell us whether you plead

17 guilty or not guilty to each and every one of the counts in the indictment

18 or would you rather do so within the next 30 days? Would you like to

19 discuss this with your lawyer?

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am prepared to plead today.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very good. Are you in a

22 position to plead to each of the counts or only to one or several counts?

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, to all of them.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you. Mrs. Registrar, can

25 you please read the indictment but only the counts. In other words, we

Page 1353

1 already know that the accused, Mr. Stakic, pleaded guilty [as interpreted]

2 to the count of genocide, Count 1. Not guilty to Count 1.

3 JUDGE WALD: It says "pleaded guilty." It's "pleaded not

4 guilty."

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: "Not guilty."

6 THE INTERPRETER: "Has pleaded not guilty, not guilty." The

7 interpreter changes.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Not guilty to the count of

9 genocide, but I think that we are going to repeat all the counts.

10 Mrs. Registrar, can you please read out Count 1 and Count 2.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Count 1, genocide. Count 2,

12 complicity in genocide.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Dr. Stakic, do you plead guilty

14 or not guilty to Counts 1, genocide, and 2, complicity in genocide?

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I plead not guilty to

16 these two counts.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Does your answer mean that you

18 plead not guilty? Is that the way we should understand what you said?

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.

21 Madam Registrar, please read out Count 3.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Count 3, murder, crime against humanity.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please carry on.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Count 4 --

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me. Read the entire

Page 1354

1 count number 3, please.

2 THE REGISTRAR: I'm sorry, Your Honour. Count 3, murder. The

3 Prosecutor re-alleges and incorporates -- --

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me, sorry.

5 THE REGISTRAR: I apologise, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No problem. Please go on.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Milomir Stakic committed Count 3, murder, a crime

8 against humanity, punishable under Articles 5(a) and 7(1) and 7(3) of the

9 Statute.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Dr. Stakic, do you plead guilty

11 or not guilty to this count number 3?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I plead not guilty.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 Yes, Madam Registrar.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Count 4, extermination, a crime against humanity,

16 punishable under Articles 5(b) and 7(1) and 7(3) of the Statute.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Dr. Stakic, do you plead guilty

18 or not guilty to this count number 4?

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I plead not guilty to

20 Count 4.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.

22 Please carry on, Mrs. Registrar.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Count 5, murder, a violation of the laws or

24 customs of war as recognised by Article 3(1)(a) of the Geneva Conventions

25 of 1949, punishable under Articles 3 and 7(1) and 7(3) of the Statute of

Page 1355

1 the Tribunal.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Dr. Stakic, do you plead guilty

3 or not guilty to this count number 5?

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I plead not guilty to

5 Count 5.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 Madam Registrar.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Count 6, persecutions on political, racial, or

9 religious grounds, as a crime against humanity punishable under Articles

10 5(h) and 7(1) and 7(3) of the Statute of the Tribunal.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Dr. Stakic, do you plead guilty

12 or not guilty to count number 6?

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I plead not guilty to

14 Count 6.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please go on, Madam Registrar.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Count 7, torture, a crime against humanity,

17 punishable under Article 7 -- under Articles, I apologise, under Articles

18 5(f) and 7(1) and 7(3) of the Statute of the Tribunal.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Dr. Stakic, do you plead guilty

20 or not guilty to this count?

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I plead not guilty to

22 this count.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please continue, Mrs. Registrar.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Count 8, cruel treatment, a violation of the laws

25 or customs of war, as recognised by Article 3(1)(a) of the Geneva

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Page 1357

1 Conventions of 1949, punishable under Articles 3 and 7(1) and 7(3) of the

2 Statute of the Tribunal.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Dr. Stakic, do you plead guilty

4 or not guilty to this count number 8?

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I plead not guilty to

6 Count 8.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, please

8 continue.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Count 9, torture, a violation of the laws or

10 customs of war, as recognised by Article 3(1)(a) of the Geneva Conventions

11 of 1949, punishable under Articles 3 and 7(1) and 7(3) of the Statute of

12 the Tribunal.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Dr. Stakic, do you plead guilty

14 or not guilty to this count number 9?

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I plead not guilty to

16 Count 9.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Count 10, deportation, a crime against humanity,

19 punishable under Articles 5(d) and 7(1) and 7(3) of the Statute of the

20 Tribunal.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Dr. Stakic, do you plead guilty

22 or not guilty to this count number 10?

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I plead not guilty to

24 Count 10.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please continue,

Page 1358

1 Mrs. Registrar.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Count 11, wanton destruction of cities, towns, or

3 villages or devastation not justified by military necessity, a violation

4 of the laws or customs of war, punishable under Article 3(b) and 7(1) and

5 7(3) of the Statute.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Dr. Stakic, do you plead guilty

7 or not guilty to this count number 11?

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I plead not guilty to

9 Count 11.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please continue,

11 Mrs. Registrar.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Count 12, destruction or wilful damage done to

13 institutions dedicated to religion, a violations of the laws or customs of

14 war, punishable under Articles 3(d), and 7(1) and 7(3) of the Statute of

15 the Tribunal.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Dr. Stakic, do you plead guilty

17 or not guilty to count number 12?

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I plead not guilty to

19 Count 12.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Dr. Stakic. You may

21 sit down.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We noted that Dr. Stakic pleaded

24 not guilty to all counts in the amended indictment. So, Mrs. Registrar,

25 please take note of the fact that Dr. Stakic pleaded not guilty to all

Page 1359

1 counts.

2 Let me address the Office of the Prosecutor. I can see that

3 you're already on your feet, Mrs. Somers, so I suppose you have some

4 remarks to be made.

5 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm sorry to interrupt the

6 Court's train of thought, although I want to bring to the attention,

7 although the registrar very properly read, on paragraph 47, Count 11,

8 there is an ellipsis, an erroneous omission of 7(1) and 7(3), "in

9 violation" -- the language that you see in Count 12. It should be there.

10 Is simply did not get picked up. And we would ask for a verbal

11 corrigendum to be followed by a written corrigendum. It is simply --

12 literally a typo, and we apologise to the Defence counsel and the Chamber

13 and would hope that would not change anything. I believe that the plea

14 entered, nonetheless, reflected what Madam Registrar said. It is our

15 error unintentionally, and we will have it remedied. Thank very much.

16 Just with a corrigendum. Thank you. And I apologise that I had to

17 interrupt you.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Well, yes. We want to thank

19 you, Madam Registrar, for paying attention to that typographical error.

20 Thank you for picking up on that.

21 I now would like to stress, in relation to the Prosecutor, that

22 stated in Rule 66(A)(ii) that you have certain measures that you have to

23 take and that you're going to take those steps as agreed. You're going to

24 disclose to the Defence all materials supporting the amendment made to the

25 indictment. We agreed on this, didn't we?

Page 1360

1 So let me turn to the Defence. Mr. Lukic, as you know, you now

2 have another 30 days in which you can file your preliminary motions, but

3 just to have an idea, you might be able to answer this, I would like to

4 know whether you intend or not to use the 30-day period in order to raise

5 preliminary motions.

6 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, yes, I think that we have to use these 30

7 days, because this is -- we expect a heavy load of documents, and we have

8 to go through all of them. So any days we can -- any day we can use, we

9 will use.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I therefore have another little

11 question. Mrs. Somers, could you tell us more or less accurately when you

12 intend to disclose the supporting materials?

13 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour. Yes. As a matter of fact,

14 if counsel is amenable to waiting a bit, we can provide the documents

15 which were used. We have them ready. We also have for the Chamber the

16 set which, of course, is unredacted. But witness statements are still

17 coming in and must be redacted. We will get them -- I think we have a

18 pile of them that just need the redactions, and those can go out as early

19 next week, waiting for other translations; documents today.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So we'll leave it up to you to

21 disclose as soon as possible all these materials because this is a mutatis

22 mutandis situation. Things are in flux, as you know. So this 30-day time

23 period for preliminary motions must run as of the date when the Defence

24 will get the documents. So make sure that this is done. And we might get

25 in touch with you for a date to be fixed for the further Status

Page 1361

1 Conference.

2 Anyway, we've had a couple of Status Conferences already, and both

3 parties are well aware of the time schedule of the planning to be done.

4 Under the Rule 65 ter, you first have to see whether parties are able to

5 agree, to come to some agreements as to facts and law, so to find out

6 whether they agree on things that they disagree on, so as to see what is

7 going to be raised at trial.

8 And then there's a second step in the proceedings. Anything that

9 has to do with testimony, once the actual subject of the trial has been

10 established, we've got to see which witnesses are going to be testifying

11 in court, which of them are going to be heard through depositions, people

12 under oath, whether they're going to be expert witnesses. All that has to

13 be discussed by parties, and this will take us to a third step, as we've

14 already stated, that is, the issue of evidence. You'll have to further

15 define the purpose or subject of the trial, so we'll define testimony and

16 witnesses, but this takes us to the issue of exhibits as well. So we'll

17 have to set off that as well, how to organise exhibits between the

18 parties, that sort of thing.

19 So this is a solid work plan ahead of you. You can get together,

20 and when you do get together, you might reach some stipulations as to

21 facts and law, and may take on board this suggestion I made to you in

22 closed session at one of our previous Status Conferences.

23 I now have to turn -- but before that, I just want to make sure

24 you don't have anything else to deal with. Do you have other questions or

25 issues? I don't think so. Is that right?

Page 1362

1 MS. SOMERS: I just wanted to inform the Chamber that I've spoken

2 with Mr. Lukic. We'll have to put into effect very quickly a protective

3 order which is typical at the beginning of any disclosure, and we will try

4 to work on it together to propose one and submit it to the Chamber as

5 quickly as possible.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Fine. Mr. Lukic, do you have

7 questions? Do you have any further questions for the moment?

8 MR. LUKIC: No further questions, Your Honour, thank you.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Let me turn once again to Dr. Stakic. Please stand up. I want to

11 give you an opportunity to say anything you may wish to say as to

12 detention conditions or, sir, about your health.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you for your question, Your

14 Honour. At the present, I have no comments to make as regards the

15 detention conditions or my health. In any case, thank you very much for

16 your consideration.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. You may

18 sit down again.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So absent other questions, the

21 parties will wait for some notification by the Pre-trial Judge who might

22 fix a date for another Status Conference. The hearing stands adjourned.

23 --- Whereupon the Further Appearance adjourned

24 at 12:58 p.m.

25