International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2976

1 Tuesday, 14 May 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated. Good morning, everybody.

6 The case may be called, please. And in the meantime, the witness

7 be brought in.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. This is Case Number IT-97-24-T, the

9 Prosecutor versus Milomir Stakic.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And the appearances, please.

11 [The witness entered court].

12 MR. KOUMJIAN: Good morning, Your Honours, Nicholas Koumjian with

13 Ruth Karper for the Prosecution.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The Defence.

15 MR. LUKIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Branko Lukic, Mr. John

16 Ostojic, and Mr. Danilo Cirkovic for the Defence. Thank you.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

18 Good morning, Mr. Kapetanovic. Can you hear me in a language you

19 understand?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We proceed with the cross-examination of Mr.

22 Kapetanovic, please.


24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 Cross-examined by Mr. Lukic:

Page 2977

1 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Kapetanovic. My name is Branko

2 Lukic, and together with Mr. John Ostojic, I am representing the Defence

3 of Dr. Stakic before this Tribunal.

4 The Defence of Mr. Stakic would first like to clear up certain

5 issues concerning your previous statements, and I should like to have the

6 assistance of the usher, please, for the witness to be given the

7 statements that he had previously given to this Tribunal.

8 [Trial Chamber and Defence counsel confer]

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. The Chamber has drawn to my attention that you have some

11 difficulty in reading, Mr. Kapetanovic, and we will try to avoid having to

12 read the statements. But let me just ask you to take the English version

13 of your statement which is in front of you, and to tell us whether you can

14 recognise your signature on these statements, if you can. If not, we will

15 move on.

16 A. Okay. The signatures are all right.

17 Q. So you do recognise your signatures.

18 You gave two statements to the officials of the Tribunal. I

19 apologise. The interpreters have not heard your response.

20 THE INTERPRETER: I'm afraid, once again, we haven't heard the

21 witness.

22 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, I believe the witness hasn't answered

23 because there hasn't been a question put to him. There was simply a

24 statement that there were statements to the Tribunal.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I was waiting for further

Page 2978

1 explanation. I didn't see a question there.

2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Did you give two statements to the officials of the Tribunal?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. Did you give them on your own free will?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. Did anyone force you to say anything?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Was there any pressure whatsoever exerted by the officials of the

10 Tribunal on you --

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This has been already answered.

12 A. No.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Can you help us with the following, please: When did you sign the

15 second statement -- strike that. When did you sign the first statement

16 with respect to the time you gave your second statement?

17 A. I don't think it's very important in this case. If you have any

18 specific questions, please ask them. With the permission of the Court,

19 let me -- I should also like to add something that I failed to mention

20 yesterday.

21 Q. Mr. Kapetanovic, would you be so kind, please, and answer my

22 questions.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please, let us stay in correct order. You asked

Page 2979

1 an extremely difficult question taking into account there are dates on the

2 two documents, but the witness asked for some space to give some

3 explanation as regards the statement yesterday, and of course he has the

4 right to do this immediately. Please, Mr. Kapetanovic, proceed, if you

5 have anything to add to your statement yesterday.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that the gentleman from the

7 Defence should listen to what I have to say. Despite some provocation, I

8 need to ask the Court that Honourable Judges do not take into account any

9 statement which would cause Mr. Stakic to spend longer time in prison just

10 because of Nijaz Kapetanovic, and just as God is merciful, I should like

11 to appeal to the Court to have understanding for what I have been through,

12 and that despite that, I have this right. I know that some Bosniaks would

13 not be very happy with my attitude here. I do not have the right to

14 exonerate him on behalf of other people. We have all been through a

15 number of trials in our lives. I am a man always willing to pardon and to

16 show understanding of the problems of others. That is what I had to say,

17 and I should like to ask the Defence to ask specific questions if they

18 have any.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Would the Defence please proceed.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Well, I tried to be clear, but I was not probably as clear as was

22 necessary. I just wanted to ask you whether the first statement was

23 initially shown to you before you gave your second statement, and did the

24 first statement help you when giving the second statement?

25 A. I don't think it's very important. Yes, I was shown this

Page 2980

1 statement, but I don't remember saying anything that would be mutually

2 exclusive, anything that would be contrary to what I had previously said.

3 I may have repeated certain things, but as far as I know, there are no

4 many discrepancies in my statements. I don't know whether you've had the

5 opportunity to read the statement, the English version of the statement,

6 that is. I myself didn't read the statement. It was from the interpreter

7 that I learned about the contents of the English version of the statement.

8 It may have been a good idea for me to see it in my language, but I

9 don't think that after the second statement that there should be any

10 problems.

11 Q. I try to give you the B/C/S copy, that is how we refer to your

12 language. However, because it appears that you have some difficulty with

13 reading, I'm not going to trouble you with the reading of this statement.

14 I will just show you some portions of the statements. The only reason why

15 I showed you the English version of the statement was because that is the

16 only version that actually bears your signature, not the B/C/S version.

17 In the statement that you gave in December 1997, you stated that

18 you were a politician by occupation. That is what we can read in the

19 statement. Was that a correct statement at the time?

20 A. At the time, I was active in the party, and I considered politics

21 to be my occupation at the time. Later on, I was back in the field of

22 education. But as I was active in the party, I was on the party's

23 payroll, and I considered myself a professional politician.

24 Q. In your statement given in December 1997, three last digits, 739,

25 paragraph 3, pages -- lines 14, 15, 18, and 19, of the B/C/S version page

Page 2981

1 3, the last paragraph, lines 6, 7, and 10 of the English version of the

2 text, you speak about Dr. Kovacevic, and you say the following, I quote:

3 "I saw him once on the news of the Belgrade TV, which was probably in

4 January or February 1992. When the war broke out in Croatia, I saw that

5 he was a guest in the programmes which were broadcast by the Belgrade

6 television."

7 When did you give -- when did you see Dr. Kovacevic? Can you be

8 more specific, on the Belgrade TV?

9 A. I think it was either in January or February 1992. That was my

10 opinion at the time, and I still maintain that opinion. I don't see a

11 problem there because one could watch the Belgrade TV in Prijedor at the

12 time because it was transmitted over the local television transmitter.

13 Q. Had you seen him before that?

14 A. Of course I had. I had seen him in hospital, for example, and I

15 had also seen him attending some meetings.

16 Q. But had you seen him on TV prior to that?

17 A. Yes, I had.

18 Q. When was that?

19 A. When some news were broadcast from Prijedor.

20 Q. Which TV was it?

21 A. I don't remember. I think it could have been Utel.

22 Q. This was transmitted over the Sarajevo TV. Am I correct?

23 A. Yes, via transmitters which were located throughout the territory

24 of Bosnia-Herzegovina. There were programmes from battlefields, broadcast

25 in Sarajevo and elsewhere. Nusret Sivac, a local journalist, was, for

Page 2982

1 example, one of them, who was the reporter in these programmes. And he

2 was allowed to report the news concerning Serbs as well.

3 Q. Yesterday, you told us that you had been a student at several

4 different universities?

5 A. Yes, I was. In Rijeka, Tuzla, Sarajevo, Banja Luka, and I was

6 also a guest professor. I taught computer science. Actually, attended

7 courses in computer science for one month. It was a specialist training.

8 We changed universities, and that is how I spent one month in Banja Luka

9 and one month in Sarajevo. It was organised by the institute of

10 education.

11 Q. I apologise. It may seem that I am not pleased with the answer,

12 but what I'm actually doing is waiting for the interpretation to finish

13 and text which appears on the screen to stop so that we can move on and so

14 that others can follow us.

15 You testified yesterday that you wanted to help with the founding

16 of the SDA and the HDZ?

17 A. I said that it was my desire to help found as many political

18 parties as possible. The Serbs had already established the SDS, and the

19 SDA had been set up, and I want the HDZ, that is, the Croats, to have

20 their political party founded in the area as well. I was aware of the

21 situation. I was aware of how people felt, that they felt threatened,

22 both Croats and Serbs, and Bosniaks, of course, because of the prevailing

23 circumstances and the overall situation. But Croats were afraid of

24 founding the HDZ, and they wanted to become members of the SDA which, in

25 my opinion, was not a very good thing because they would have eventually

Page 2983

1 felt compelled to join the SDA. There were several thousands of them in

2 Prijedor, and they were a minority. So they had reasons to feel

3 threatened, and that is why I wanted to encourage them to establish their

4 own political party. Serbs were also very active politically at the time,

5 and I attended many of their rallies. I don't know exactly what you're

6 interested in concerning this particular issue.

7 Like I said, it was my desire to have as many multiethnic and

8 multicultural organisations in town as possible, and I didn't want the

9 pressure of the communist party to continue.

10 Q. The national parties, did they form a coalition to oppose the

11 communist party?

12 A. There were coalitions in the municipality of Prijedor. There were

13 agreements between the SDS and the SDA, for example, agreements which were

14 eventually signed. You said that the parties were national parties or

15 nationalistic parties. I wouldn't exactly call them nationalistic

16 parties. It is true that in certain of their aspects they could have been

17 perhaps described as nationalistic, but I think that it can also be

18 considered to be a positive development because any such feelings were

19 suppressed during the communist regime. Whether everyone was pleased with

20 the coalition and with these agreements, I don't know because I attended

21 only two or three such meetings, in particular at the time when Srdjo

22 Srdic was the president of the SDS.

23 Q. This informal coalition, did it exist prior to the elections? Did

24 you know that an attempt would be made to topple the communist regime

25 jointly?

Page 2984

1 A. Yes. We didn't want, for instance, any SDA poster to be put on

2 top of an SDS poster and cover it. So both formally and informally, there

3 was an agreement between these two parties, and I was very pleased with

4 that.

5 Q. The SDS and SDA politicians, did they support each other in their

6 preelectoral meetings and rallies?

7 A. As far as I know, yes. I mean, I did not attend all of the

8 rallies. It was impossible for me to be everywhere, but generally

9 speaking yes.

10 Q. In your statement given in December 1997, on page 3, last

11 paragraph, line 2 of the English version of the text, page 739, paragraph

12 3, line 10 of the B/C/S version, when you speak about Kovacevic and his

13 preelection speeches, you declare the following: "He said that it is now

14 time for the Serbs to take revenge." Now, how does this fit into your

15 explanations about the coalition and the mutual support?

16 THE INTERPRETER: I'm afraid we didn't hear witness's answer.

17 Could the witness please be asked to repeat his answer.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry to interrupt you. The interpreters

19 couldn't hear your answer from the beginning. Could you please restart

20 with your answer to the question.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can you hear me now?

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Okay in the booth? Thank you. Proceed.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is possible that there was a

24 misunderstanding in this interview. Mr. Kovacevic, prior to the

25 elections, rarely said such things. I think that this is something that

Page 2985

1 he said after the elections, at the time when public offices were being

2 divided up. At the time when the situation had already become

3 problematic.

4 I don't know if there's anything else I can help you with.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. It was not entered into the record here, but it seems to me that

7 you said that the word "revenge" was never mentioned in the -- during the

8 preelectoral campaign.

9 A. No.

10 Q. If the written statement contains the information that Kovacevic

11 made such a statement during the preelectoral campaign, you would say that

12 this was then not correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. In your statement of December 1997, page 4, paragraph 2, lines 2,

15 3, 4 of the English version; 739, second-last paragraph, line 2 of the

16 B/C/S version, you say, and I quote: "Serbs, in their villages, marked

17 certain spots near their houses with a triangle, and those were probably

18 places where weapons should be unloaded."

19 Can you please tell us where did Serbs do that, in which village?

20 A. I will repeat what I said yesterday. These were the places with

21 mixed population with the either prevailing -- Muslims as the prevailing

22 population or Serbs as the prevailing population, and we did ourselves go

23 and see and we did see such markings.

24 Q. Can you tell us the name of the person next to whose house such

25 marking was made?

Page 2986

1 A. I cannot tell you any names at this stage, because I was not so

2 much interested at the time. But I did see these markings next to some 20

3 houses. It was very difficult for me to remember the names because I

4 really wanted to just move on from that particular period of time.

5 Q. What characterised these triangles?

6 A. They were around a metre to 1.5 metres in dimension, and they

7 pointed to the house where -- which obviously was to be left intact.

8 Q. What were they made of? Can you tell us?

9 A. They were made of wooden -- small wooden planks such as used for

10 the fence.

11 Q. How was the -- how were the weapons brought to that place, do you

12 know?

13 A. I did not really pay much attention, but I think it was done with

14 the JNA vehicles.

15 Q. Yesterday, page 43, line 23 of the transcript of your yesterday's

16 statement, this is where you said that wooden crosses were placed in order

17 for the helicopters to fly over them.

18 A. Yes. They were pointing the direction to which the helicopters

19 were to land to deliver weapons.

20 Q. So both the triangles and crosses were placed?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Where were the crosses placed?

23 A. I did not see. When we were going through Trnopolje, through

24 Kozarusa, this is where we were able to see such markings.

25 Q. You say that you personally did not see them?

Page 2987

1 A. No, I did not personally see them. Some of my colleagues who --

2 saw that, and all the places where it was possible for a helicopter to

3 land, these were the places that were usually marked. I said yesterday

4 that the Bosniaks were also arming themselves because they needed the

5 arms. So obviously, some of the people from the JNA were selling weapons

6 also to the Bosniaks. No wonder, then, that they were giving weapons to

7 Serbs as well. However, I did not say that Mr. Stakic knew or knows about

8 it.

9 Q. Could you please go back now to the time of the negotiations about

10 the division of power. You say that you participated in three such

11 meetings.

12 A. Yes, I said two or three.

13 Q. Do you remember if minutes were made of these meetings?

14 A. Not throughout the time of the meetings; only when something was

15 agreed on. This was the point when it was noted down, but the discussion

16 itself was not taken down in minutes. So when the discussion was going

17 on, persons were taking down notes on their own initiative, and then it

18 was only when something was agreed on that it was noted down officially.

19 Q. Who signed the minutes that were taken down by the SDA?

20 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, we didn't hear the second part of the

21 answer.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could the witness please repeat the second part

23 of the answer.

24 MR. KOUMJIAN: There's an objection to the question, because it

25 assumes a fact that there's no evidence that the SDA took the minutes.

Page 2988

1 The witness simply said that when something was agreed, it was written

2 down.

3 [Trial Chamber deliberates]

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps I might be of assistance, Your

5 Honours. The --

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry, but here I have to give a comment on

7 behalf of all the Judges. It's a question of principle raised by the OTP.

8 And of course, we are prepared, and we will proceed this way: No longer

9 to allow what has been custom in this courtroom until now to have the

10 answer already included in the question. Such kinds of suggestive

11 questions will never be allowed for both parties in future. And

12 therefore, the objection of the OTP is sustained.

13 Please proceed, Defence.

14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I just wanted to explain

15 that my question was misinterpreted. I did not ask whether the SDA kept

16 the minutes, but who was it that signed the minutes on behalf the SDA. I

17 think the witness can confirm this.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the last question. My

19 answer was Mirza Mujadzic. I cannot recall anyone else signing it but

20 him.

21 MR. LUKIC: [In English] May I proceed, Your Honour?


23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Can you tell us, if you remember, which body elected Mr. Muhamed

25 Cehajic to the function of the president of the Municipal Assembly?

Page 2989

1 A. Well, the deputies of the assembly, the Municipal Assembly itself.

2 Q. Can you tell us which body elected or appointed Mr. Hasan

3 Talundzic to the position of the chief of the public security station in

4 Prijedor?

5 A. This was the result of the interparty agreement, and it was

6 confirmed by the Municipal Assembly. I told you that later on, I was no

7 longer involved in the political life as I became the president of

8 Merhamet. I won't be able to give you the exact details, but I can tell

9 you what I think the case was, and I will emphasise in my response whether

10 I think or I am sure that this is the case.

11 Q. On page 4, paragraph 6 of the English version; that is page 740,

12 paragraph 3 of the B/C/S version, you speak of the 30th April and the

13 takeover of power by the SDS. And you say that "Serbs were shooting in

14 the air in the morning." Was this really the case? Is this correct?

15 A. When I was taken, yes. I don't know what the reason for that was,

16 if when we were being taken in front of the theatre, they were shooting

17 out into the air. Yes, this is correct. I don't know what their motives

18 were. They weren't shooting at me or at any other person. If they had

19 been shooting at me, I wouldn't be here.

20 Q. Are we talking about the morning of the 30th of April, 1992?

21 A. Well, I was thinking about the day when the checkpoints were

22 placed throughout the town, when the Serbs took over the power, when the

23 attack took place actually.

24 Q. So we're not talking about the 30th of April; we're talking about

25 the 30th of May here?

Page 2990

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Therefore, when it says in your statement that the people were

3 shooting in the air on the 30th of April, this is incorrect. This

4 actually took place on the 30th of May?

5 A. Yes, 30th of May.

6 Q. As the president of Merhamet, were you able to move around the

7 town?

8 A. When?

9 Q. After the 30th of April, 1992.

10 A. Yes, I was able to move around the town after the 30th of April

11 until the town was actual -- came actually under attack. I would go to

12 the offices of the Red Cross in Prijedor to try and coordinate the lists

13 of people who were in greater need for aid so that I would be able to use

14 these lists for the distribution of aid. I would go, then, through the

15 local communities themselves, trying to draw up lists for the people. So

16 yes, I was able to move freely until Prijedor came under attack.

17 Q. Correct me if I am wrong: You remained in Prijedor until 1995?

18 A. Yes, correct. 23rd of February.

19 Q. Did you move around Prijedor after the attack on Prijedor?

20 A. Well, I was not officially under any house arrest; I was just

21 advised for my safety to stay at home.

22 Q. In which house did you spend this year -- that particular year?

23 A. Well, I spent that particular year in two houses.

24 Q. Can you tell us the dates?

25 A. Well, if we talk about the attack on Prijedor, from the attack on

Page 2991

1 Prijedor until November 1992, I was in this family house. And as of

2 November 1992 until the 23rd of February 1995, this was the period that I

3 spent in the house of a Bosniak. I cannot recall the name now.

4 Q. So for about six months following the attack, you remained in your

5 house?

6 A. Yes. And then another six months approximately in this other

7 house. I didn't move around. Afterwards, I went to Merhamet on business.

8 And from time to time, I visited some local communes to see how the work

9 was going on, until 1995.

10 Q. So during these six months after the attack, your house did not

11 sustain any damage at all?

12 A. Excuse me, just a moment. Only the windows were broken on one

13 side of the house. The glass panes of several windows which was the

14 result of the detonation when the church was blown up.

15 Q. When you were moved to this other house, you say that your own

16 house was destroyed with a bulldozer?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You also stated that this was done pursuant to an order of the war

19 presidency?

20 A. At least that is what I was told by the soldiers. I also

21 indicated that I did not have any written document to that effect.

22 Q. Do you know whether the war presidency existed after the month of

23 August 1992?

24 A. There existed some kind of authority, some kind of war presidency.

25 After all, the war was still going on, and all such institutions on both

Page 2992












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 2993

1 sides were called and referred to as "war presidencies." But as a result

2 of the pressure by the international community, this was changed.

3 Q. You describe in your statement an event which took place when you

4 were in Prijedor and when you were approached by the son of the late Dr.

5 Kovacevic.

6 A. I didn't say that. He approached Ibro Beglerbegovic.

7 Q. Well, what I mean is he approached the group in which you were,

8 the group of people in which you were?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Who was with you on that day?

11 A. Well, I told you a moment ago that I was with Dr. Ibrahim

12 Beglerbegovic.

13 Q. Anyone else?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you remember who was there with you also?

16 A. I don't see the point.

17 Q. The point is, Mr. Kapetanovic, that you were not present when this

18 took place.

19 A. How do you know that? You may have been present, too. What do

20 you know?

21 Q. Persons who were present at this event did not mention you as one

22 of the people who was there.

23 A. Well, just as I am not mentioning everybody who was present now --

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Once again, this is a suggestive question, and

25 we can't see the sources for the facts you want to insinuate.

Page 2994

1 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, I don't know if this is the

2 appropriate time but I wanted to clarify my objection because it goes to

3 the whole process of how we do examination and cross-examination. Again,

4 I would object to that question but not because it is suggestive but

5 because it amounts to testimony by counsel about what other people said.

6 Regarding the other question, I think it's wrong to ask a witness, for

7 example, who took the minutes for the SDA when the witness hasn't said any

8 minutes were taken by the SDA so how can he answer it. But I know there's

9 a difference between the civil and common-law systems, or adversarial and

10 inquisitorial systems regarding cross-examination and suggestive

11 questions. I would not object to the Defence asking a question that's

12 suggestive on cross-examination or vice versa, because, in my

13 experience -- that's allowed in my system, of course -- but also in my

14 experience, it limits the cross-examination tremendously and we can get

15 answers to questions much more quickly than if we simply ask an open-ended

16 question on cross-examination. I'm not afraid that too many of my

17 witnesses are going to follow suggestions by Mr. Lukic, and I don't think

18 he's afraid that his witnesses are going to follow my suggestions. If

19 they disagree, they disagree. But it allows us to get the point in

20 cross-examination much quicker if we're allowed to ask suggestive or

21 leading questions in cross-examination. I don't know at what point Your

22 Honour wants to take that up.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We have to decide on the last question and only

24 on questions immediately before us. And here, I can't identify the source

25 of your question, and therefore I would ask you probably to rephrase the

Page 2995

1 question.

2 MR. LUKIC: [In English] We are not allowed to compare the

3 statements of the witnesses, Your Honour --

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Probably you can rephrase the question.

5 MR. LUKIC: Okay, thank you.

6 Q. [Interpretation] If other witnesses who were present when this

7 took place said that you were not present at the event, would they be

8 wrong?

9 A. Well, it is possible for them to say so, but I don't think that I

10 said anything that would contradict myself. It is possible that someone

11 was there, and that I did not see them.

12 Q. I am referring to the event when this group of people was

13 approached by the son of Dr. Kovacevic.

14 A. I was there. I saw it with my own eyes. Or else I saw these

15 things in my dreams. I mean, how would it be possible for me to describe

16 this if I had not been present? I was very surprised. I was actually

17 frightened. I was afraid of a potential incident. And I must say that I

18 was very happy with the reaction of Mr. Beglerbegovic. He was very

19 correct and fair in his reaction. I also understand the son of Mr.

20 Kovacevic. I know that he's still mourning his father, and now know that

21 it was all very difficult for him. I don't see anything wrong with that.

22 Q. Thank you. I should now like to compare your statements, the one

23 that you gave in 1997 and the one that you gave in 2001. I should like to

24 hear your explanation on potential differences in these statements if any,

25 and if there are such differences I should like to know your final

Page 2996

1 testimony on the issue.

2 In your 1997 statement, December 1997, on page 3, paragraph 3,

3 middle of the page, in the middle of the page, or page 739, paragraph 2 of

4 the B/C/S version, you declare the following: "Kovacevic was always

5 mentioning that Prijedor was a Serb town, so there was no need to give

6 Muslims any positions of authority." Whereas, in your statement given in

7 2001, on page 2, paragraph 5, or page 662, paragraph 5 of the B/C/S

8 version, you declare the following: "Also, Stakic was mentioning that

9 Prijedor was a Serb town and Serb land and that there was no need to give

10 Muslims any positions of authority."

11 My question is, who was it who stated this?

12 A. Both of them did. So did Mr. Srdjo Srdic. He also said that

13 Prijedor was a Serb town. I mean, that was the story that went around.

14 Q. You said that the first, the second, the third, then the fourth

15 said that.

16 A. The president of the SDS.

17 Q. Who did you have in mind? You cannot adapt your testimony to the

18 accused on trial.

19 A. I have said, and I am happy to repeat, that it was a common

20 conviction amongst the Serbs that according to the census which was taken

21 in 1991, that there had been more Serbs in Prijedor and that the Serbs

22 were betrayed by the census and the election as well. This was a common

23 statement amongst almost all Serbs in Prijedor, not only the first, the

24 second, the third, and the fourth one. I see no reason for any discussion

25 concerning this particular issue, but be my guest.

Page 2997

1 Q. Can we conclude that in 1997, you didn't mention Stakic in this

2 context at all?

3 A. Yes, I did, just as I mentioned Kovacevic and others. People

4 were, psychologically speaking, under the impression that it was a Serb

5 town.

6 Q. So is it, then, true that the officials of the Tribunal failed to

7 reflect accurately what you stated?

8 A. Where did you find this, that this was not correctly stated?

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This is a question the witness cannot answer.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The witness said that he had mentioned

11 Stakic the first time as well. So either he didn't mention him, or the

12 officials of the Tribunal failed to put his words in the statements. Your

13 Honour, I'm trying to find out what is true, what actually happened.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With your permission, I don't think

15 it changes anything. I mentioned that, but probably not everything was

16 recorded. Now, I just mention that this was also the conviction of Srdjo

17 Srdic, Stakic, Kovacevic, and others, many others, who attended the

18 meetings on the division of power, that the Serbs had been betrayed. Now,

19 whether I enumerated all of them in my statement, I didn't insist that all

20 of them should be recorded because it was -- we were talking about Mr.

21 Stakic specifically. But you cannot see from the text that there is no

22 possibility that others said that as well.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. When you were signing your first statement which took place in

25 2001, did you point to this difference in the --

Page 2998

1 A. No, I did not. I did not really compare the two. It was not

2 available to me, nor did I ask to do that. I know that I did not say

3 things that I do not stand by, that I did not stand by or do not stand by.

4 And I did not really see that there was a need for me to compare. I did

5 not have the intention of really constructing a story. I know that -- I

6 know that it cannot be that my statements would contradict one another.

7 Q. Can you tell me, when did you hear Stakic say these things?

8 A. It was at the last session of the Municipal Assembly held in

9 Prijedor.

10 Q. Was there anyone else with you listening to this?

11 A. Yes, Mr. Cehajic, Kovacevic. It took place in the hall, also in

12 front of the municipal building. But this took place in the conference

13 room. It was said again that the Serbs were cheated out, and I did say

14 that perhaps they were, to a certain extent, cheated out by the very

15 system that existed before. None of them were satisfied, the Serbs,

16 Bosniaks, or Croats. But as far as I know, they were not the -- the

17 elections were not rigged. I know that a lot of in fact Bosniaks but

18 Croats as well, Serbs, who voted for the SDA. But the Serbs simply could

19 not accept what had happened, and I understand that they were angry. I

20 can understand that.

21 Q. Can you tell us when was it that you heard Dr. Kovacevic say these

22 things?

23 A. Well, it did not take place only once. Ever since the elections,

24 we were hearing that the Serbs were swindled, that there are more Serbs in

25 Prijedor than other ethnicities, and this was the opinion held by the

Page 2999

1 majority of the Serbs, because they were -- they could not accept the

2 results of the census either. This was an issue, I think, of

3 greatest -- that caused greatest misunderstandings.

4 Q. In your 1997 statement, page 3, paragraph 6; 739, paragraph 2 of

5 the B/C/S version, you say, and I quote: "Kovacevic said that Prijedor

6 would not join anyone but Serbia and that non-Serbs will never destroy

7 Yugoslavia -- or break up Yugoslavia."

8 A. Well, I'm sure that you held the same opinion. I would really

9 like to hear how many Serbs actually did not hold such an opinion. 90 per

10 cent of the Serbs advocated such a stance that they wanted Yugoslavia --

11 Q. When did you hear Dr. Kovacevic say these things?

12 A. On more than one occasion. Serbs really revolted at the division

13 of Yugoslavia. This was a fact. I don't see that this can be a problem

14 in the statement.

15 Q. Can you recall the specific occasion when you heard Dr. Kovacevic

16 say these things?

17 A. Well, during the negotiations about the division of functions, I

18 think that it took place during the discussions whether Basic would be

19 appointed or Talundzic. And on several other occasions. Serbs in general

20 said these things very often. This was something they criticised the

21 Bosniaks mostly about, about the division of Yugoslavia, and this is a

22 fact.

23 Q. In your 2001 statement, page 4, paragraph 8 of the English

24 version, or page 664, paragraph 3 of the B/C/S version, you said the same

25 about Dr. Stakic.

Page 3000

1 A. Yes. And I confirm what I said then, and I ask you: Was there a

2 Serb who did not think this way?

3 Q. So this is just merely a result of a presumption of yours?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Can you tell us, where was this said by Mr. Stakic?

6 A. Well, Mr. Stakic said this at the last meeting of the Municipal

7 Assembly. I don't see any problem about that. It was him who said this

8 about the division. This was when the last meeting was interrupted, and

9 he had a right to be fond of Yugoslavia. Why not?

10 Q. Did you say this as well to the ICTY officers when you were giving

11 a statement about Mr. Kovacevic in 1997? Was it at that time that you

12 also mentioned Mr. Stakic?

13 A. Probably I said that it was true for everyone, because this was --

14 this opinion of Serbs was very prominent at the time.

15 Q. Can we then confirm that again the ICTY officers did not record

16 your statement correctly?

17 A. Well, I cannot say about what the ICTY officers did. I just said

18 what the people at the time said during the negotiations for the division

19 of functions, and I heard it myself from Stakic in the venue of the

20 meeting of the Municipal Assembly. This was the theatre building, and

21 this was a fact. And I think we can say that this was a fact, this was

22 true that the Serbs thought they held Slovenians, Croats, and Bosniaks

23 responsible for the breakup of Yugoslavia.

24 Q. On page 3, paragraph 6, line 3 of the English version, or page

25 739, paragraph 2, line 5 of the B/C/S version, you say: "Kovacevic said

Page 3001

1 that non-Serbs do not -- had no right to ask for authority and that they

2 had falsified the elections."

3 On page 2, paragraph 5, line 3 of the English version of your

4 statement dated 2001, or 602, paragraph 5, line 5 of the B/C/S version of

5 the same statement, you said: "He" -- and you meant Stakic -- "also said

6 that non-Serbs had no right to ask for authority and that the Serbs had

7 always been cheated in peace."

8 A. Yes. I don't see that there is any contradiction here. I

9 explained it a minute ago.

10 Q. Did you mention this as well to the ICTY officers when you were

11 giving your statement in 1997?

12 A. What do you mean? What did I mention?

13 Q. When you were giving a statement for the case of Dr. Kovacevic,

14 did you at the time mention Dr. Stakic as well?

15 A. Yes. I don't see what is at issue here, because then it was Dr.

16 Kovacevic who was at the centre, and today it's Dr. Stakic.

17 Q. So even at that time, the ICTY officers did not record your

18 statement correctly?

19 A. Well, that is your -- that is how you see it, and that is not how

20 I see it.

21 Q. I will rephrase my question, then. Did the ICTY officers record

22 in the written statement everything that you said? Or did they actually

23 select what to record and what not to record?

24 A. This is an issue that we can discuss. I think perhaps I should

25 answer it this way: I think that they recorded what was relevant for a

Page 3002

1 given subject, topic. That's all.

2 Q. Thank you. When you were being asked questions by the ICTY

3 officers, did they ask you to speak only about Dr. Kovacevic, or did they

4 ask you to speak about the events that took place in Prijedor?

5 A. At the time, we were talking mostly about the events involving Dr.

6 Kovacevic. Of course, in the process, we spoke of other issues as well.

7 Q. On page 3, paragraph 3, line 7 of the English version of the 1997

8 statement; the B/C/S version, page 739, paragraph 2, line 6, you said:

9 "He" -- and you mean Kovacevic -- "also accused Dzevad Seric" --

10 A. Nedzad Seric.

11 Q. I have Dzevad Seric here.

12 A. Probably a mistake.

13 Q. Thank you. I'm sorry, in the statement it says Dzevad, but thank

14 you for your assistance. So you say: "He" -- meaning Kovacevic -- "also

15 accused Nedzad Seric, the president of the Court in Prijedor, of

16 falsifying the results of the elections."

17 On page 2, paragraph 5, line 6 of the English version of your

18 statement dated 2001, or page 662, paragraph 5, line 6 of the B/C/S

19 version, you say: "He" -- and you mean Stakic -- "repeated several times

20 that non-Serbs had falsified the elections, and he also accused the

21 president of the court in Prijedor, Mr. Seric, of falsifying the results

22 of the elections."

23 A. Yes. Everyone accused Seric, even Srdic. They all accused Seric

24 as the one who was to blame most for the elections.

25 Q. When did you hear Mr. Kovacevic say this?

Page 3003

1 A. During the negotiations about the division of the functions. And

2 as for Mr. Stakic, I told you that I met him twice during the

3 negotiations, and I didn't hear him say that during these discussions. But

4 in the theatre, when we had this last meeting of the Municipal Assembly

5 that was interrupted, it was then that I heard -- that he said that.

6 Q. Are you certain that Mr. Stakic participated in the negotiations

7 for the division of power?

8 A. Well, he did not take part to a great extent.

9 Q. But he was a member of the delegation that negotiated the division

10 of power?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you mention to the ICTY officers -- did you mention to them

13 Mr. Stakic in 1997?

14 A. Well, this was not the subject that we discussed at the time.

15 Q. So we can actually conclude that you did not mention Mr. Stakic in

16 1997?

17 A. Not in that context.

18 Q. I would now ask you about an issue concerning mobilisation. Can

19 you recall how many people were mobilised in 1991?

20 A. In 1991, I know that there were young people who joined the

21 military service, but I don't know the exact numbers. I know that many

22 people decided not to respond to these calls amongst Bosniaks and Croats.

23 Q. I will have to rephrase my question, because it was entered in the

24 records wrongly. Do you know how many times, on how many occasions, were

25 mobilisation -- were people called up? On how many occasions before the

Page 3004

1 war?

2 A. I don't know. I know that there were several occasions.

3 Q. Were there -- did it happen on one or two occasions that people

4 were called up?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 A. I wasn't the one who was at all on the list to be called up, so I

8 did not really -- I was not a conscript. I did not really know about it.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, do Your Honours think that

10 this would be the appropriate time to have the break?

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes. We adjourn until 11.00 sharp.

12 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

13 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated, and let's immediately proceed.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Can we continue, Mr. Kapetanovic?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you. I will ask you again about the mobilisation, because

19 this is where we left off. But if you don't know much about this subject,

20 please let me know. Are you aware that the mobilisations were called up

21 in September and November 1991?

22 A. I don't know the exact dates when they were called up. All I know

23 was that at one point in time, they were.

24 Q. Do you know whether the SDA expressed its support to any of these

25 mobilisations or to one of them?

Page 3005

1 A. As far as I know, they were not in favour, the mobilisation, in

2 particular, those who were not willing to go to Croatia to fight war

3 there.

4 Q. Was there an interparty agreement in this respect?

5 A. I did not participate in any such negotiations, and I wouldn't

6 know.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 A. I was informed that those who wished to go were allowed to go, and

9 those who did not wish to go did not have to go.

10 Q. Yesterday, you testified that the Serb propaganda was, for the

11 most part, targeted against the SDA?

12 A. Not only against the SDA, but against the HDZ and Bosniaks in

13 general, because the Serbs felt that they had been cheated.

14 Q. On page 3, last two lines of the English version of your statement

15 given in 2001, that is, page 663, paragraph 4 of the B/C/S version, you

16 declare that you heard Stakic speak on the Prijedor Radio and say that the

17 Serbs had been cheated and that this could not be accepted.

18 A. Yes, that this was unacceptable for Serbs.

19 Q. Can you remember when it was that you heard this?

20 A. At the last session. The last session of the municipality of

21 Prijedor when they discussed the situation and their activities in

22 relation to that.

23 Q. But you heard this over the radio. Is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. When was that?

Page 3006

1 A. At the session, like I said.

2 Q. But do you remember --

3 A. You mean the date?

4 Q. -- Approximately when that was?

5 A. Just prior to the outbreak of the conflict in Prijedor, some ten

6 days before the conflict.

7 Q. Was that the session which was eventually interrupted and which

8 you attended, too?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. How did you know that those were the words of Mr. Stakic?

11 A. It was announced. He took the floor, and he entered into an

12 agreement with Mr. Cehajic. And it was Mr. Cehajic who kept repeating his

13 name.

14 Q. Would it be able for you to recognise the tone of voice of Mr.

15 Stakic.

16 A. Well, it is possible that someone at the Prijedor Radio had Dr.

17 Stakic's speech.

18 Q. I'm just trying to find out whether you can recognise the voice of

19 Mr. Stakic.

20 A. I think, and I think that I said that already, that Mr. Stakic

21 said that, repeated that, even at the time when I was present. So I don't

22 think that the quality of his voice is now very important.

23 Q. You were the vice-president of the SDA. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes, for a period of time.

25 Q. You advocated a peaceful solution to the disagreements?

Page 3007

1 A. Yes, I did, and I still do.

2 Q. Why were you replaced in the party?

3 A. I was not replaced. There were internal elections within the

4 party.

5 Q. Why didn't you obtain support of the party members?

6 A. I think you should ask them. But you're probably interested in

7 what I think of these internal elections.

8 Q. Please, tell us what you think.

9 A. Well, some people probably did not like my approach, my attitude.

10 That's one possibility. But I don't know exactly what the reason was.

11 Q. Thank you. You say that it was very difficult for Muslims to

12 leave Prijedor?

13 A. Well, it was difficult for me as well. Some Bosniaks left

14 Prijedor relatively easy; some with difficulty. I don't know what the

15 reason for that was. I addressed myself on three occasions to various

16 organisations with the purpose of leaving Prijedor. And soon after I

17 submitted my request, some of these organisations stopped working. Again,

18 why that happened at the time that I wanted to leave the town or someone

19 else, I don't know. There were probably some minor difficulties, minor

20 problems, regarding this, regarding departing Prijedor. But again, that's

21 just my opinion. One of the reasons why it was difficult at the time to

22 leave the town was the requirements to have transit visas for Croatia.

23 Another problem was money, of course.

24 Q. Do you know whether it was possible for military-age Serbs to

25 leave Prijedor?

Page 3008

1 A. I very much doubt so. It was probably possible for some of them,

2 but the number, I guess, would have been very small. If you are referring

3 to the period of time following the conflict of Prijedor.

4 Q. Yes, exactly, that's the period of time I have in mind. Thank

5 you.

6 In 1997, were you ever a guest speaker at the Prijedor Municipal

7 Assembly?

8 A. I never addressed the assembly of the Prijedor municipality. I

9 was just a guest in the sense that I was present to see how its work would

10 unfold. And in a sense, I also influenced Bosniaks, persuading them that

11 they should come to attend this session of the assembly, because there was

12 a discussion involving the national anthem, the flag, the official flag

13 and so on and so forth. And I insisted that the Serb decision should be

14 respected. Of course, they have the perfect right to stand by their

15 interests, but the others did not have to accept that. However, it was my

16 opinion that they should be present and cooperate. So I didn't actually

17 take the floor at the session. It was simply a conversation, a

18 discussion, between the representatives of the coalition and the Serb

19 side. I merely spoke to the representatives of the Bosniak side and the

20 members of some of the parties, but this discussion was unofficial.

21 Q. Was it possible for you to attend the assembly sessions in a

22 certain capacity?

23 A. Yes. As I told you, at the time, I was a party member. This is

24 the time that I indicated that my occupation was politician. I was a

25 professional at the time.

Page 3009












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 3010

1 Q. Can you tell us what particular function you had at the time?

2 A. I represented the Party of Democratic Action of Bosnia and

3 Herzegovina.

4 Q. I heard you, but however, once again, for the purposes of the

5 record.

6 A. In 1997, I was the president of the SDA for a period of time.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 Yesterday, you testified on page 8, line 25, that the humanitarian

9 aid reached Bosnia from Germany even before the war.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Was there any need for humanitarian aid in Bosnia before the war?

12 A. Well, when I said "before the war," I was referring to the

13 conflict in Prijedor.

14 Q. So before the 30th of May?

15 A. Yes, because there were already problems with, for instance, baby

16 food and some other supplies. Some of the roads had already been blocked.

17 And as I indicated, 50 per cent of this humanitarian aid went to the

18 organisation called Kolo Srpskih Sestara. 25 per cent went to the

19 Caritas, and 25 per cent to Merhamet.

20 Q. These difficulties with the supplies of goods, did they influence

21 the overall availability of goods and commodities in Prijedor?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What was the situation in which local Prijedor companies found

24 themselves at the time?

25 A. I don't know what the situation was. I mean, I don't know exactly

Page 3011

1 what it was, but I'm sure that it was much worse than it had been before

2 the conflict in the former Yugoslavia.

3 Q. As the president of Merhamet, were you aware of the existence of

4 refugees, of the presence of refugees, in the territory of the Prijedor

5 municipality? I'm referring to refugees from Croatia.

6 A. I was not in Prijedor at the time. I just heard that the refugees

7 from Krajina, that is, from Croatia, had arrived as a result of the combat

8 operations in Croatia.

9 Q. Do you know that there were refugees from Croatia as early as in

10 late 1991 and early 1992 in Prijedor?

11 A. Yes, but the number was not yet very high. I know that the

12 International Red Cross distributed food and other types of assistance for

13 this category of people as well.

14 Q. Did you hear about the refugees from the Bosanska Bojna that

15 arrived in Prijedor?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Yesterday, in your statement, on page 16, line 20, you said that a

18 camp was established for Serbs who did not follow the official policy.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What was the location of this camp, do you know?

21 A. Between Prijedor -- this was a place where tyres were being

22 repaired, of dampers, bulldozers used for the work in the mine. So this

23 was the place where these tyres were being repaired. I heard this from a

24 couple of Serbs.

25 Q. Do you know when this camp was established?

Page 3012

1 A. I do not know, but I think it was in existence in 1993.

2 Q. Until what time was it in operation?

3 A. I don't know. Probably even after I had left.

4 Q. Can you tell us, on how many occasions did you find yourself in

5 the company of Mr. Stakic?

6 A. Not on many. Perhaps two or three times during the negotiations,

7 and the last time that I attended this session of the Municipal Assembly.

8 If you mean amongst other people, that we discussed, that he was present

9 there, yes. But of course, I -- just seeing him, I did see him on more

10 occasions.

11 Q. You speak of this last session of the Municipal Assembly, and you

12 say that you entered the theatre where the session was being held. Was

13 there security around?

14 A. Yes, but at that time, the session was already over, and many

15 deputies were leaving. On this particular location, there is a cafe

16 today. So it was there that people would move around, and the deputies in

17 the assembly would actually meet there and discuss issues. So it was no

18 really official premises.

19 Q. On page 22 of yesterday's transcript, line 11, when asked by the

20 Prosecutor whether you met with Mr. Stakic on some other occasions apart

21 from this last session of the Municipal Assembly, as you said, then you

22 said you never met him again.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. On page 20 of yesterday's transcript, line 16, you stated that the

25 Serbs kept saying that they were constantly outvoted.

Page 3013

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Were they outvoted?

3 A. Probably in some issues.

4 Q. Did you ever see Milomir Stakic in the company of Mr. Cehajic?

5 A. At this last session at the assembly, it was with him that he

6 talked.

7 Q. On some other occasion perhaps?

8 A. Often, even when I wasn't part of the company, I would see them

9 together on several occasions.

10 Q. On yesterday's transcript, page 14, line 14, when asked by the

11 Prosecutor as to who represented the SDS in the negotiations for the

12 division of power, you said that there were people from the military,

13 Arsic and others.

14 A. Yes, sometimes.

15 Q. Did these negotiations take place in 1991?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you want to say that Arsic was a member of SDS in 1991?

18 A. I'm not saying this. I don't know this.

19 Q. Didn't all the officers of the JNA have to be members of the

20 alliance of communists at the time?

21 A. Well, that was the policy. They had to be members.

22 Q. You would agree with me, then, that it was impossible for a person

23 to be an officer of the JNA and to be a member of a party other than the

24 League of Communists of the former Yugoslavia?

25 A. Since in former Yugoslavia, there were no other parties, I don't

Page 3014

1 understand the question.

2 Q. We're talking about 1991 when there were other parties.

3 A. But at that time, you didn't have the League of Communists.

4 Q. You had the League of Communists, the movement for Yugoslavia.

5 A. I want to clarify this. When there were discussions about the

6 recruitment of young persons for the military service, then the

7 discussions were held with Arsic and with the other one -- what was his

8 name?

9 Q. Zeljaja.

10 A. Yeah, Zeljaja. And then it was said, of course, under the

11 constitution, the persons had to go and serve the military service, and

12 this is where the problem arose.

13 Q. Did, then, the representatives of the military participate in the

14 negotiations for the division of power?

15 A. No. No, in this context, after division of power, no, because

16 that day that I was referring to, we were discussing the military

17 conscripts, because there were many people who tried to evade the drafting

18 of the army, and that's when the military asked for an intervention of the

19 municipal authorities.

20 Q. The announcements of the Crisis Staff broadcast on the radio, were

21 they read by Stakic or by the announcer of the Prijedor Radio?

22 A. The announcer of the Prijedor Radio, that is, the lady announcer.

23 Q. Ms. Dzafic?

24 A. Senija, yes.

25 Q. In today's transcript, page 26, line 10 -- yesterday's, sorry, you

Page 3015

1 said that Milomir Stakic read these announcements.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry, where is the quote?

3 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Page 26, line 10, yesterday's transcript.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I'm afraid this is not the context. I'm quoting

5 now from the top of my head, I'm aware that the witness said that it was

6 not Dr. Stakic, but a lady announce -- making this announcement. And here

7 the question was, and you have to quote correctly: "Did you ever hear Dr.

8 Stakic on the radio?" Then the witness said "yes."

9 MR. LUKIC: The witness said: "Yes, he was one of those who kept

10 repeating these claims and announcements which we would hear over the

11 Radio Prijedor on a daily basis."

12 MR. KOUMJIAN: I think the next sentence should be read also.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please, be fair, and quote in the context.

14 MR. LUKIC: "And the presenter was a Bosniak lady who had to read

15 this."

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes, this is what the witness said immediately

17 before.

18 MR. LUKIC: In the context, I understood that he said that Mr.

19 Stakic read the announcements as well. That's what I wanted to clarify.

20 But anyway, thank you, Your Honour, for your help. I'll move on.

21 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Kapetanovic, yesterday, you tried to explain

22 to us what the main source of the conflict between the SDS, HDZ, and SDA

23 was. In your opinion, the essential conflict, was it around the issue

24 whether Bosnia and Herzegovina should be -- become an independent state,

25 or was the issue at hand something else?

Page 3016

1 A. The question is a very broad one. It can -- things can be

2 interpreted in different ways depending on the period you're referring to.

3 We talk about the plebiscite where most of the people decided that Bosnia

4 and Herzegovina should become a recognised state, and that this was the

5 wish of the majority of the people. And I understand that perhaps Serbs

6 did not feel good about it. But if I may persuade you, it was also very

7 difficult for me, just as there had been Serbs left in Slovenia, Croatia,

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and in Montenegro, so were there Croats and Bosniaks

9 as well. But in my opinion, it would have been better to have solved it

10 peacefully and to struggle for the interests of one's people within the

11 borders, territorial borders that were historically determined rather than

12 try and solve the issue by war. This is my opinion.

13 Q. Were you of the opinion that Bosnia and Herzegovina should secede

14 from Yugoslavia?

15 A. I just explained a moment ago what my opinion is. And if you

16 follow the transcript which is in English, you will see that I have said

17 that I was sorry. And I said that in my opinion, it would have been

18 better to have solved the issue peacefully and to have struggled for the

19 interests of one's people in a democratic way, and that the results of the

20 vote should have been respected, and we could not really adapt the results

21 to our own wishes. The important thing was to actually respect the

22 decision of the majority. I agree with you that the majority doesn't

23 always have to mean quality as well, but this is the best -- and this is

24 the best solution. But as democrats, we have to abide by the decision of

25 the majority and struggle for the interests and the needs of the minority.

Page 3017

1 You have a next question?

2 Q. Prior to 1992, was the notion of the constitutionality of people

3 known in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Are you familiar with the constitutional provisions?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did secession require all the three majority peoples in

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina to agree or accept the change of the status of the

9 republic and the change of the borders of the republic?

10 A. I think that the results themselves point to the fact that there

11 were Serbs who accepted this. I don't see that any minority, either that

12 of the Serb, Bosniaks, or Croats, that they all participated in the

13 plebiscite, just as previously had been the case with Slovenia and

14 Croatia. I wouldn't really agree with the statement that the Serbs did

15 not vote in favour. Obviously, the group that voted against found it very

16 difficult, and obviously this is what actually caused such a reaction to

17 take place.

18 Q. You say that you are familiar with the constitutional provisions

19 relating to the change of the status of the republic. Do you know that

20 apart from the requirement that the majority of each of the peoples to

21 accept this, that also a two-thirds majority, a qualified majority, is

22 required, which is 66.6 per cent, and that the referendum itself was

23 actually taken part in by some 64 per cent, the turnout was 64 per cent?

24 A. I don't have any data concerning that.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 3018

1 On page 26, line 23 of yesterday's transcript, you spoke of the

2 incident at Hambarine, and you said that not a single Serb was killed,

3 only one was seriously wounded but he was not in a critical condition.

4 A. This is what I heard on the Prijedor Radio from this Serb himself

5 who gave a statement in the hospital. The one who was more seriously

6 injured was actually transferred to the Banja Luka hospital. There were

7 even witnesses who were present in the hospital at the time and who later

8 confirmed this to me. He even explained to us how the whole thing went in

9 Hambarine. He said that they had a military vehicle, and that the

10 Bosniaks told them to stop, and that the one who was more seriously

11 injured stopped but then continued driving even faster than before. And

12 this is how they opened fire, and this is how it all happened. I think

13 that you will also have an opportunity of hearing the witness himself who

14 worked in the hospital at the time.

15 Q. Can you tell us what sort of a military vehicle was it?

16 A. A jeep. That's what I heard, what I was told. I did not see it

17 with my own eyes.

18 Q. Do you know how many people were in that Jeep?

19 A. According to what I was told, there were three of them. That is

20 what this person who was injured was saying. Another version mentioned

21 six. What is actually true, I do not know.

22 Q. Do you know at least what happened to the third person?

23 A. I don't think that he was wounded. The one who was only slightly

24 wounded spoke for the Prijedor Radio. That is what he said. As to what

25 actually happened, I don't know. I couldn't tell you because I wasn't

Page 3019

1 present.

2 Q. On page 27, line 14 of yesterday's transcript, you stated that

3 there had been Serbs who had been killed in Croatia.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You also stated that some Serbs claimed in respect of them that

6 they had been killed somewhere in the vicinity of Prijedor.

7 A. Yes, that is what the -- that was the story that went around in

8 Prijedor.

9 Q. Who did you hear it from?

10 A. I heard it both from Serbs and Bosniaks. But I'm more inclined to

11 believe the statement of the man who was in the vehicle and who was

12 wounded. They went to the hospital to interview him, and he spoke into

13 the microphone shortly after that. Shortly after the incident, he was

14 broadcast over the Prijedor Radio. But soon after that, the story

15 changed. There are several versions of the story.

16 Q. Can you give us a name of any Serb who said this?

17 A. I don't think it's a very good idea for me to mention such a name.

18 I don't think that we have reached that degree of tolerance, that is, that

19 we are able to accept other people's opinions. I think that the situation

20 in Bosnia is still such that this is not possible. Of course, an end

21 should be put to that. I do not wish the Serbs to feel that this Tribunal

22 is working against them. I don't think that either Serbs or Croats should

23 feel like that. I think that this Tribunal is working very well, and I

24 can only express my gratitude to the Tribunal for that.

25 But I know that people interpret things they hear in their own

Page 3020

1 way.

2 Q. Would you be prepared to give us the name of this individual if we

3 move into private session?

4 A. No. Not yet. Perhaps later, one day. But as I told you, there

5 was a member of the staff who brought food to me. I was trying to tell

6 you that there are Serbs and that there were Serbs who were not in favour

7 of a war at any cost. But I hope that one day it will be possible for me

8 to say loud and clear who that Serb was.

9 Q. Were there Serbian houses in Bosnia which were built in the

10 traditional Bosniak manner? That is, with the windows facing all four

11 sides of the house?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Are you aware of the existence of a Crisis Staff of the SDA which

14 was established in Hambarine in the fall of 1991?

15 A. I only heard about that, but I don't know exactly. I believe that

16 it existed.

17 Q. Did you ever hear who the members of the Crisis Staff were?

18 A. I heard that it was Mirza Mujadzic, Hilmo Hopovac, Talundzic, and

19 some others whose names now escape me.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 You were yesterday asked questions by the Prosecutor concerning a

22 press article which was shown to you. Did you ever see this article

23 before?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Do you know what its origin is?

Page 3021

1 A. It comes from Kozarski Vjesnik.

2 Q. Do you base your conclusion on what you were able to read on the

3 photocopy?

4 A. Yes, and I believe it to be true.

5 Q. Do you know what kind of person Milomir Stakic is?

6 A. I believe that I declared something to that effect in my

7 statement, and I also said that I agreed with the statement made by the

8 journalist.

9 Q. What exactly did you tell us what kind of person Milomir Stakic

10 is?

11 A. Well, I didn't say anything specific as to how he was.

12 Q. What was it that you agreed with, with the journalist?

13 A. Well, I agree with everything that is contained at the beginning

14 of the article, in the first statement.

15 Q. Do you know now what you agreed with?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you repeat this for us?

18 A. I don't think I can. I think that this is a provocation. My

19 memory doesn't always serve me right.

20 Q. I just wanted to hear what you accepted to be the characteristics

21 of Milomir Stakic and the traits of his personality.

22 A. I agree with what the journalist said, and if you have read the

23 article, you will know what I'm talking about.

24 Q. So you accepted the opinion of the journalist without giving any

25 comment?

Page 3022

1 A. Yes, without any comment, and I still refuse to comment.

2 Q. On page 42, line 3 of yesterday's transcript, you wanted Milomir

3 Stakic to tell you where it was that Bosniaks and Croats attacked Serb

4 villages.

5 A. Yes, because I didn't know about that.

6 Q. Mr. Milomir Stakic cannot give you his answer, but let me ask you

7 something concerning these statements of yours. Have you ever heard of

8 massacres at Sijekovac and Kupres which occurred in the month of March

9 1992?

10 A. As far as I heard, yes. I do not justify any massacre, as I told

11 you yesterday at the beginning of my testimony. I think that the life of

12 every man is sacred. I cannot accept that the humankind should destruct

13 themselves. I think that this is terrible, and I also expressed my hope

14 that all those who did this will eventually be punished by the Creator.

15 And I also said that it was possible -- it was not possible for any court

16 to punish all perpetrators, all people who are guilty and responsible.

17 How do you go about punishing a person who killed 30 other men? In my

18 opinion, on this world, it is not possible to mete every punishment

19 deserved, to mete out every punishment. I can talk about my opinions, my

20 positions, what I did or what I didn't do. If someone did something evil,

21 it doesn't, of course, give me the right to act alike.

22 I can understand that people can have a hard time. I was having a

23 hard time. But after all that, I said that I appeal to this Honourable

24 Chamber not to sentence Mr. Stakic to prison for what I personally have

25 been through. I think that you were able to see what my position was.

Page 3023

1 And I have the same attitude towards everyone. I think that all those who

2 did something wrong or said something wrong will eventually be punished.

3 I don't think that the life would have any meaning if finally each one of

4 us is not given either a compensation or a sentence. We are all going

5 through a number of trials, but we are all different. And that is what

6 constitutes the richness of the humankind. We should all strive to be

7 better human beings. And I said that I did not want Mr. Stakic to end up

8 in prison just because of what I felt and went through during that period

9 of time. I cannot, however, say this on behalf of anyone else. Every

10 victim will have the right to -- and has the right to justice. If not

11 now, in this life, then in some other life. I think that we will all meet

12 our judgement. This is how I view things, and I'm -- I've been very

13 pleased with your questions generally speaking, apart from some minor

14 comments that you made now and then. But I think that generally speaking,

15 your questioning was correct and fair. Please go on.

16 Q. I personally have profound respect for your opinions and your

17 approach to life in general. However, I'm sure you're aware of the need

18 that we are here with the purpose of establishing the truth.

19 A. Yes, yes, I am. That is the reason why I'm here.

20 Q. So can we move on from these lofty issues and focus on reality for

21 a change.

22 A. By all means, but this is all reality, you know.

23 Q. Let me ask you again a few questions concerning the attack on

24 Prijedor on the 30th of May.

25 A. Please do.

Page 3024

1 Q. Did the people who -- were the people who participated in this

2 attack crazy?

3 A. Yes, they were.

4 Q. Do you know that if they were treated in any psychiatric clinic?

5 A. No, I don't know who was there.

6 Q. Do you know who it was who had pushed them into all this?

7 A. No, I don't.

8 Q. Are you familiar with the decision of the then rump government of

9 Bosnia and Herzegovina on stopping the columns of the JNA personnel and

10 the attacks on barracks?

11 A. No, not really. But I know that when Bosnia and Herzegovina was

12 recognised by the United Nations, it was a big question whether the

13 decision, that is, the results of the plebiscite, should be respected or

14 not. I'm referring to the Serb plebiscite, or whether to respect the

15 decision of the United Nations. I think that they were in a big dilemma.

16 Well, you called it a "rump presidency," and you are discussing the

17 validity of their decisions. I have to say that I do not feel competent

18 to answer such questions and to give such comments.

19 Q. I only wanted to ask you whether you have heard of a decision on

20 the attack of columns and equipment of the JNA.

21 A. No, I haven't heard of such decision, but I know for fact that

22 such movement was indeed obstructed.

23 Q. Have you ever heard of an attack on the column of JNA personnel in

24 Tuzla in the month of April?

25 A. I heard that there was such an attack, but I didn't hear anything

Page 3025

1 specific about it. All I know was that there were some problems in that

2 respect.

3 Q. So you're not familiar with the number of casualties, with the

4 number of soldiers who were killed?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Have you ever heard of the attack which took place in

7 Dobrovoljacka Street in Sarajevo?

8 A. You are now telling me an attack that happened in Sarajevo,

9 whereas I was in Prijedor at the time under house arrest, and the

10 electricity was very often cut off. The shortages were very frequent.

11 Electricity would come and go, so I wasn't able to follow these events.

12 Q. Do you know when it was that the United Nations recognised Bosnia

13 and Herzegovina?

14 A. What's that got to do with me?

15 Q. Well, you spoke about --

16 A. The recognition of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. Are you trying to tell me that there was no such recognition?

19 Q. By no means. I just want to know whether you know when the

20 country was recognised.

21 A. Well, I don't know. It's not important right now. The important

22 thing is that it was recognised. You know it just as well as I do. You

23 could see it on TV when the Bosnian flag was hoisted in the United

24 Nations. Well, if you wish -- if it is your intention to compare the

25 events and put them in context, then maybe, yes, you are right.

Page 3026












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 3027

1 Q. I'll move on from this subject.

2 On page 30 of yesterday's transcript, line 19, you stated that

3 there had been an order for Bosniaks and Croats to put up white sheets on

4 their houses.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You say: "For a while, we had to keep them out -- keep them up."

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. How long did it last?

9 A. For about 15 days, I think, or less.

10 Q. On page 46, line 13 of yesterday's transcript, you say that

11 everyone knew on whose side Fikret Abdic was?

12 A. Yes. People traded with him, eggs, poultry, and poultry products

13 coming from that company were sold in Prijedor.

14 Q. So which party did Fikret Abdic belong to in 1992?

15 A. To SDA, everyone knows that. However one should inquire about his

16 positions, the positions that he had in 1991, those that he had in 1992,

17 and those that he had in 1993.

18 Q. In 1991 and 1992, he was a member of the Party for Democratic

19 Action, was he not?

20 A. Yes, officially speaking. However, unofficially, he already

21 embraced different positions.

22 Q. Where is Mr. Abdic today?

23 A. In Croatia. I can see what you are alluding to. I didn't say

24 that he sided only with Serbs or Croats; he merely thought that what he

25 was doing was correct. But whether this was really so, I think time will

Page 3028

1 show.

2 Q. I will refer now to an event that might be traumatic for you. The

3 fact that your children were beaten during one of the searches, was this

4 traumatic for you? Was this a traumatic event for you?

5 A. I don't think anyone would be able to calmly watch someone else

6 beat their children. And if you say it's traumatic, I don't really know

7 what you imply by that.

8 Q. What I meant was that this was a really unpleasant event.

9 A. Yes, unpleasant definitely. Traumatic can have can have other

10 connotations. This is why I did not accept this definition.

11 Q. But this is something you will always remember?

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Sorry, Your Honours.

14 Q. [Interpretation] How do you explain the fact that you never

15 mentioned this incident earlier, but only yesterday here, before the

16 Tribunal?

17 A. I answered to you a moment ago that I do not intend to keep

18 recalling and repeating this. I think this would be disastrous for a

19 person to keep thinking about one's problems. My approach to problems is

20 a positive one, even when I'm beaten, I always try to look at it

21 positively. Maybe at how -- what I will turn out to be later on. I don't

22 want to have a shred of hatred in me or in my children. The problems lies

23 with the perpetrators. They have a problem. My problem is to try and

24 be -- and improve myself and be better, and this is why I never mentioned

25 this. I wouldn't even like my children, my grandchildren, to have a shred

Page 3029

1 of hatred in them, because this is something that destroys the very person

2 who hates, not the person who is hated. This is how I see this, and I act

3 in accordance with my opinion, and I try to have my family live this way.

4 And I would really like the majority of the people to share this opinion

5 of mine, but of course everyone has their own right to live the way they

6 like. This is democracy.

7 You can go on.

8 Q. Thank you. Was your family with you in Prijedor until you left

9 Prijedor?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Were there people who left Prijedor prior to 30th April? Do you

12 remember?

13 A. Do you mean prior to the conflict in Prijedor?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. Well, yes, people were leaving, and a few of them were leaving

16 because they were afraid of bad things happening in Prijedor.

17 MR. LUKIC: [In English] Please bear with me, Your Honours.

18 [Defence counsel confer]

19 MR. LUKIC: We have no further questions, Your Honours.

20 [Interpretation] Mr. Kapetanovic, thank you for your patience and

21 your answers.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We should not forget, you tendered two exhibits.

24 I have before me only the English versions. Did you tender also the

25 versions of the former statements in B/C/S?

Page 3030

1 MR. LUKIC:, yes, Your Honour, we would like to tender all the

2 statements into evidence.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could the usher please provide us with those

4 documents in B/C/S.

5 MR. LUKIC: There are two statements, both in B/C/S and English.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: But we should like to see the documents also in

7 B/C/S.

8 Then, are there objections from the OTP?

9 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes. It's a generic objection against admitting

10 the statements. My concern is first that it would tend to violate the

11 principal that the evidence should come in under oral testimony under oath

12 of the witnesses. And secondly, my concern is just more practical, if we

13 tender for all the witnesses their prior statements, it creates, I think,

14 unnecessary amount of documents, paperwork, and translations into the

15 third language, which would be French. I don't think that's necessary

16 when the witness has testified and we have a French transcript. He has

17 been confronted with inconsistencies in those statements and has responded

18 and all of that is in the transcript of his oral testimony.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I've got your point, but here, it seems to be a

20 clear exception. And during the break, the Judges discussed this issue.

21 Here, it's not, in principle, a question of the content, first of all, of

22 both documents but the quality, the special quality. And therefore, the

23 statement --

24 MR. KOUMJIAN: May I qualify my objection. I understand Your

25 Honours' point, and I see very much the point of that regarding these two

Page 3031

1 statements, but perhaps it would be of assistance to everyone I would

2 suggest if the Court only takes the English version. The B/C/S version is

3 just a translation of the English that's made available mainly for the

4 accused's purposes.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: But it's also important to see where we can find

6 signatures and where we can find no signatures.

7 MR. KOUMJIAN: And this is -- we can maybe perhaps enter into an

8 agreement, this is the procedure of the OTP. I can tell the Court, and I

9 think the Defence, both counsel having sat through trials is aware of

10 this. The statements are taken in English, and it's read back by an

11 interpreter who translates it in the field. It's only back in the OTP, in

12 the CLSS, the translation section, that it's then translated into the

13 language of the accused. So the witness, not just this one witness, but

14 none of the witnesses sign the B/C/S. I think we can stipulate to that

15 among the parties. The only version which would be signed is the English,

16 which is taken in the field.

17 Would the Defence agree with that?

18 MR. LUKIC: Yes, we would agree with that, only this witness

19 recognised B/C/S version of his statement when given the statement to sign

20 in 2001, his statement from 1997. So that's only why they think that --

21 although we don't find any discrepancies in between English and B/C/S

22 version.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think we should stick to that what I said

24 before and what the Judges said during the break. It's necessary. When

25 it probably comes to -- we have to come back to these documents, we should

Page 3032

1 be aware which is what. And therefore, the witness statement of 2001 is

2 admitted into evidence. Which number, please?

3 THE REGISTRAR: This will be D4.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Number D4A the English version, and D4B the

5 B/C/S version.

6 And then, the draft witness statement of 1997, signed 10th July

7 2001 will be Exhibit D4A, the English version, and D4B, the B/C/S version.

8 Sorry, D5A, and D5B.

9 Is there any request for re-examination?

10 MR. KOUMJIAN: No, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then probably we can make it short.

12 Questioned by the Court:

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Mr. Kapetanovic, Defence counsel touched upon

14 the issue of these documents we just mentioned before. But to be -- to

15 have a clear solution, we have before us, as it was said, the draft

16 witness statement. In the original as of 1997, apparently there was no

17 signature and no initials. But later on, we can find, and you authorised

18 this with your testimony today, your signature of 10 July 2001. Was there

19 any reason in 1997 why you did not sign the document in 1997?

20 A. No.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: When there was the next interview in 2001, was

22 it in the beginning or in the end of your interview of 2001 that you were

23 asked also to sign the former interview?

24 A. We were discussing this statement as well, and then I said that I

25 agree, that I accept everything that I had said previously, and then I

Page 3033

1 signed it. I don't see that there are any contradictions between these

2 two statements, the one taken in 1997 and the one taken in 2001.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Just for your better understanding, I have to

4 come back to your -- our transcript of today, page 22, line 2. There you

5 said: "I did not really compare the two. It was not available to me, nor

6 did I ask to do that."

7 My question is, was this as it is called "draft witness statement"

8 read by you or was it read out to you in a language you understand?

9 Because it will apparently be difficult for you to remember what you have

10 said four years before.

11 A. I know that it was read out to me, my statement made in 1997, and

12 I said that it was fine. They asked me whether I wanted to sign it, and I

13 said yes. And I didn't compare the two texts. There was an officer who

14 came up to me and asked whether I agreed to sign this, so I didn't have

15 these two documents one next to the other. I agreed with the text, of

16 course, so I -- but I didn't get a copy for me to be able to compare.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: In which language was this document of 1997 read

18 out to you?

19 A. In Bosnian. There was an interpreter who interpreted for me the

20 text in English.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think, then, we have clarification enough on

22 this issue.

23 One final question from my side: Yesterday, in your statement on

24 page 45, line 23, following until page 46, line 3, you said: "I don't

25 have an example, nor did I hear from anyone that Mr. Stakic killed someone

Page 3034

1 or did something really bad to anyone. However, my major criticism of Mr.

2 Stakic is that he failed to put some additional effort and to do

3 something. I think that Serbs, having conducted themselves in this

4 manner, lost more than they gained as we lost, Croats, and Muslims, and

5 Serbs alike."

6 For the better understanding of the Judges, could you be a little

7 bit more concrete. What is your major criticism of Dr. Stakic?

8 A. When I said this, I meant that -- well, I know that I, myself, did

9 my best to improve the situation as far as I could, being a president of

10 Merhamet. I put as much effort as I could to prevent the things that

11 happened. And I said that I never heard from any Bosniak that Stakic

12 personally killed anyone, and this is why I cannot accuse him of having

13 done that. But I did say that if he could, he should have done more to

14 prevent what happened because he held a responsible position. This is how

15 I see it.

16 I do not know if he was under pressure from someone else that

17 prevented him from doing more. This was the issue, this was what I said.

18 This is the question -- this is the question that I put also here today,

19 perhaps in a different manner, but the meaning is the same.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for these additional remarks.

21 Judge Fassi Fihri, please.

22 JUDGE FASSI FIHRI: [Interpretation] When you heard announcements

23 of Dr. Stakic over the radio, did you actually hear his name? Was his

24 name pronounced?

25 A. Whenever a deputy in the assembly was there to talk, then he was

Page 3035

1 announced, and then he commented on it. And of course, whoever held the

2 microphone commented on it.

3 JUDGE FASSI FIHRI: [Interpretation] Because you told us that such

4 announcements, such declarations, were made almost on a daily basis. Were

5 all these declarations attributed to Dr. Stakic?

6 A. Yes.

7 JUDGE FASSI FIHRI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Judge Vassylenko.


10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the judge, please.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Apart from the announcement that he

12 made, this is what he was saying.

13 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Mr. Kapetanovic, when have you heard about Dr.

14 Stakic for the first time?

15 A. When the negotiations between the SDA and the SDS were taking

16 place in the Prijedor municipality building.

17 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: And what was the role and action of Dr. Stakic

18 in the events before the takeover and after the April 1992 takeover in

19 Prijedor?

20 A. I wasn't interested in his private life.

21 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: But I mean not his private life, but his public

22 life, as politician.

23 A. The only thing I know is that he represented the SDS party when he

24 was still the president of the SDS -- vice-president of the SDS. When

25 Srdjo Srdic was president of the SDS.

Page 3036

1 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: And how often did Dr. Stakic make public

2 statements on TV, radio, and newspapers, or public meetings, before and

3 after the takeover in Prijedor?

4 A. I think he gave statements very rarely. He did, but rarely. As

5 far as I can tell, I cannot recall many of his statements.

6 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Well, in your statement made on the 17th of

7 July in year 2001, you said that "Stakic was repeating in interviews,

8 public appearances," and it's page 4 of the English version. "Stakic was

9 repeating in interviews, public appearances, and in local community

10 meetings that the Serbdom, was in jeopardy, that Serbs had to stay

11 together in one state."

12 What is the meaning of "Serbdom"? In your opinion, what did Dr.

13 Stakic mean when referring to "Serbdom"?

14 A. Well, we have to distinguish between these interviews and his

15 statements made at different meetings, in local communities. What does

16 "Serbdom" mean, perhaps the question should be addressed to Mr. Stakic. I

17 didn't know what he meant by "Serbs" and "Serbdom." I said that this was

18 detrimental to Serbs, Croats, and Muslims alike. What it meant precisely

19 to him, that, I cannot say. I can perhaps look at it as a body of

20 spiritual, cultural, traditional values of a people that need to be

21 respected.

22 What he meant by that is something I do not know.

23 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Kapetanovic.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Hereby we conclude your testimony,

25 and we thank you very much for the informations and your very human

Page 3037

1 approach you let us know. And you are excused.

2 [The witness withdrew]

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We stay adjourned until 12.50 p.m.

4 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

5 [The witness entered court]

6 --- On resuming at 12.53 p.m.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated. Dr. Cehajic --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Dr. Cehajic, you can understand me in a language

10 you understand?

11 THE WITNESS: [No audible response].

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So first of all, welcome. And our apologies for

13 the delay. But we should start immediately. And would the usher please

14 take the solemn declaration.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

16 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Please be seated.


19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The examination may start, please.

21 MR. KOUMJIAN: For the record, Ann Sutherland from the Office of

22 the Prosecutor has joined us after the break, and she will conduct the

23 examination.

24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Excuse me, usher, would you be able to move the ELMO thing down

Page 3038

1 because it's in the road of the witness. The machine, the ELMO machine.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Take the entire machine away.

3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you.

4 Examined by Ms. Sutherland:

5 Q. Could you please state your full name for the record.

6 A. My name is Minka Cehajic.

7 Q. What is your date of birth?

8 A. I was born on the 20th of March, 1939, in Ljubija, in Prijedor

9 municipality.

10 Q. What is your nationality or ethnic group?

11 A. I'm a Bosniak.

12 Q. Do you practice a religion?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What is that?

15 A. I practice religion in my own way. I think that all people are

16 religious in their own way. I was born in a family that practiced

17 religion, but not very strictly. But I can say that I was raised in a

18 religious spirit.

19 Q. Was that religion Islam?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In 1968, you completed your medical degree. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes, it is.

23 Q. From 1968 until 1992, you lived and worked in the city of Prijedor

24 in the Prijedor municipality?

25 A. Yes, that is correct.

Page 3039

1 Q. First as a medical doctor in the Mladen Stojanovic medical centre?

2 A. Yes, I was a general practitioner before I completed my specialist

3 training and consequently became a pediatrician. But this was all within

4 the same medical institution.

5 Q. You also specialised in nephrology, did you not?

6 A. That is the so-called subspecialisation which I completed in 1983

7 and 1984 in Zagreb.

8 Q. From 1977, did you occupy the head of the children's section in

9 the Prijedor hospital?

10 A. Yes, I did. It was after I passed my specialist examination. In

11 the month of June, I became as a result of that, the chief of pediatrics,

12 and worked there up until maybe two years before the war -- four years

13 before the war when I became deputy chief of the hospital, deputy manager

14 of the hospital.

15 Q. And from February 1993 until February 1994, you worked in Croatia

16 as a physician for mothers and children at the Doctors of the World

17 clinic?

18 A. Yes. I worked as a physician at the children's health centre,

19 mother and children's centre, which was financed by humanitarian

20 organisation in France, Les Medecins du Monde, and this is where I work as

21 a pediatrician.

22 Q. And since 1996, you have been working in a clinic as a

23 pediatrician?

24 A. I'm sorry, I didn't hear your question.

25 Q. I'm sorry. I'll repeat it. Since 1996, you have been working in

Page 3040

1 a clinic as a pediatrician?

2 A. 1996 -- no. I have been working from 1996 in Sanski Most in a

3 clinic -- well, it's actually hospital but you use the word clinic. But

4 the information is correct.

5 Q. Doctor, were you married?

6 A. I don't know how to describe my status. My husband is missing. I

7 am married.

8 Q. What year did you get married?

9 A. In 1964.

10 Q. To whom?

11 A. I married Muhamed Cehajic. He was already working as a professor

12 at the time while I was still a student.

13 Q. You have two children, a daughter age 37, and a son age 30?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You mentioned that your husband was a professor. What was he a

16 professor of?

17 A. He taught what was at that time called Serbo-Croatian language and

18 philosophy, and he has a degree in world literature and philosophy from

19 the Sarajevo university.

20 Q. How long had he been teaching for up until 1992?

21 A. He had been teaching in Prijedor ever since 1966 until 1991, 1992,

22 when he switched to another function. Until that time, he had worked at

23 the local grammar school in Prijedor. But before that, he also had

24 another teaching post in Banja Luka.

25 THE INTERPRETER: If we correctly heard the witness.

Page 3041


2 Q. You said that he also had another teaching post in Banja Luka. Is

3 that correct?

4 A. No. No. Maybe it was misinterpreted. He never taught in Banja

5 Luka. I was in Banja Luka for a period of time to undergo a training, so

6 he came to visit me, but he taught in Sanski Most before he taught in

7 Prijedor.

8 Q. And you lived in Banja Luka in 1968. Is that correct?

9 A. No. We lived in Ljubija. We didn't have an apartment in

10 Prijedor, so he, at the time, was living with my mother, and I was living

11 temporarily in Banja Luka, because I was participating in a compulsory

12 medical course. So from time to time, he would visit me there.

13 Q. Was your husband a member of a political party?

14 A. At what time? During what period of time?

15 Q. Did your husband join a political party in the late 1980s?

16 A. Yes -- no. Not in late 1980s. It was in 1991 that he became a

17 member of the SDA.

18 Q. Did your husband hold an executive position within the SDA?

19 A. No, he didn't have an executive function within the SDA. He was a

20 member thereof. And as such, he was at one point in time elected mayor as

21 a representative of this party. As for any specific executive function

22 before that, no.

23 Q. Was he elected mayor as a result of the 1990 elections?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And he was mayor of the Municipal Assembly of the Prijedor

Page 3042

1 municipality?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. As a result of your profession, and also as a result of living in

4 Prijedor for so many years, did you know many people from the Prijedor

5 area?

6 A. As a result of my profession, I did know many people there. Some

7 I knew by name; some I knew just by my sight because that was the nature

8 of my profession. I had numerous contacts with various kinds of people.

9 And almost every citizen of Prijedor at one point in time, he or his

10 family member came into contact with me as a physician. So as a result of

11 my profession, I knew more people in Prijedor than my husband did.

12 Q. You said that your husband was elected mayor of the municipality.

13 As a result of the 1990 elections, who was elected as your husband's

14 deputy?

15 A. Dr. Milomir Stakic was elected as his deputy. There were two more

16 functions, leading functions, within the municipality, that of the

17 president of the Executive Board and his deputy. This information was

18 published in Kozarski Vjesnik together with their four pictures. The

19 photographs were taken as they were giving the solemn declaration.

20 Q. If you could just pause there for a moment, we will discuss the

21 president of the Executive Board in a moment. Just going back to Dr.

22 Milomir Stakic, do you recall what political party he belonged to?

23 A. SDA and SDS divided the functions between themselves, because

24 neither of them received more than 50 per cent of the votes. So it was

25 necessary for --

Page 3043












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 3044

1 Q. Let me stop you for a moment. My question was did you know what

2 political party Dr. Milomir Stakic belonged to?

3 A. Yes, I know. He belonged to the SDS.

4 Q. Did you know what his ethnicity was?

5 A. Well, I believe I did. He was a Serb.

6 Q. Did you know Dr. Stakic prior to this appointment?

7 A. No, I did not. I may have heard of him. I knew most of the

8 Prijedor doctors by name, but I had not personally seen him until that

9 time. I may have met him in passing, but I didn't personally know him.

10 Q. You mentioned that you saw a photograph in the newspaper. Do you

11 recall when this was?

12 A. I don't think I can recall the date. But I remember that there

13 was a comment made at work. When I came to work that day at the hospital,

14 I saw this issue of Kozarski Vjesnik and these photographs. A colleague

15 of mine commented on how they were dressed. This colleague was a Serb.

16 And then he said to this other person: "Why didn't you put on suits? Why

17 did you wear just pullovers?" Actually two of them were wearing pullovers

18 and two of them were wearing suits. My husband and another gentleman were

19 wearing suits, and these two other persons were wearing pullovers. That

20 was the comment that was made at the time, and that is probably the reason

21 why I remember this particular photograph.

22 Q. When did you first see Dr. Stakic in person?

23 A. After this photograph was published, I probably saw him a couple

24 of times around the town. I never had any official meetings with him, so

25 I don't remember when I first saw him. When I came to see my husband at

Page 3045

1 work, I realised that they had they had their offices next to one another,

2 only a corridor separated their two offices. The entrance of the building

3 was common to both of them, and I remember seeing him there when I went to

4 visit my husband in his office. That is one occasion that I remember. I

5 don't specifically recall any other.

6 Q. You mentioned the president of the Executive Board of the

7 Municipal Assembly. Do you know who was elected to that position?

8 A. Yes, I know. It was a colleague of mine who worked with me at the

9 hospital. I met him on a daily basis. That was Milan Kovacevic.

10 Q. What was his name?

11 A. Milan Kovacevic.

12 Q. Do you know what political party he belonged to?

13 A. He, too, was a member of the SDS.

14 Q. What was his ethnicity?

15 A. He was a Serb.

16 Q. You said he was a colleague of yours. How many years had you

17 known Dr. Kovacevic?

18 A. I had known him ever since he came to Prijedor to work there

19 sometime in the 1980s, 1984 or 1985. It must have been in the first half

20 of the 1980s. Prior to that, he had worked somewhere in Germany, and he

21 came to work to our hospital. We didn't have an anaesthesiologist at the

22 time, so he came to fill the post. And it is since that period of time

23 that I know him.

24 Q. Were you surprised at Kovacevic's appointment?

25 A. Not really. No. No, I wasn't. It was the time when the

Page 3046

1 multiparty system was beginning to be implemented. There were several

2 different political parties at the time already. So it was -- it didn't

3 come as a surprise actually.

4 Q. Were you in Prijedor when the Serbs took control on the 30th of

5 April, 1992?

6 A. Yes, I was.

7 Q. What happened that morning?

8 A. That morning, I think I slept in a little bit. The telephone

9 rang, and I answered the phone. It was Sadeta Medunjanin, a teacher who

10 knew my husband. I didn't know her very well although she comes

11 originally from Prijedor. I just knew her by sight. She was the one who

12 called. And she said: "Did you hear what happened?" And said I didn't.

13 She didn't go into details over the telephone. She just said: "Well,

14 turn on the radio. You will hear." Which is what I did and heard this

15 announcement broadcast over the radio.

16 Q. What did you hear?

17 A. I -- at this point I cannot recall the contents in detail, but the

18 sense of the announcement was that the Serbs had taken over power in

19 Prijedor. This is what I remember, and that everything had gone smoothly

20 without a single bullet having been fired, and that the Serbs had taken

21 over. I'm just paraphrasing now the contents of the announcement, but

22 that was more or less the idea.

23 Q. What did you do?

24 A. I looked through the window, and I saw two soldiers outside the

25 entrance to my building. It was time for me to go to work. I didn't know

Page 3047

1 how to go to work. I called the hospital where I worked, and the driver

2 who used to drive me when it was necessary -- of course, I went to work in

3 my own car. But this time, I called him just to see first of all whether

4 he was already there, and then I called him and I went to work in this

5 official vehicle. Nobody created any problems because of that. But on

6 the way to work, I could see that something was going on, that there were

7 many people around.

8 Q. What happened when you reached the hospital?

9 A. Once I got to the hospital, I saw that the SDS flag had been put

10 up outside the hospital and that there were soldiers and guards standing

11 outside the entrance. However, I got in without any major problems or

12 difficulties. I went about doing my regular job. It was on 30th of

13 April, and the 1st May was an official holiday. So it was customary for

14 me to check that everything was all right at various departments, that

15 people were there, that personnel was at work, that the equipment was as

16 it should be. So I went about checking all this, and I didn't realise

17 that anything really tragic was going on on that day.

18 Q. Doctor, if I could just ask you to slow down a little bit for the

19 interpreters.

20 You mentioned that about four and a half years before the war, you

21 became deputy director of the hospital. Who was the director of the

22 hospital?

23 A. It was Dr. Tesinic, Nikola Tesinic, an eye doctor who was head of

24 hospital at the time.

25 Q. Do you know what ethnicity Dr. Tesinic was?

Page 3048

1 A. Yes, he was a Serb.

2 Q. You said when you got to work that day, you carried on as normal.

3 Did you and Dr. Tesinic have to issue any paperwork to any staff member?

4 A. There was staff members who expressed a desire to leave earlier. I

5 don't know whether he had received any special instructions or anything,

6 but we signed papers to that effect. That is, for all those who wished to

7 leave before 3.00 p.m., which was the official end of the working day.

8 Q. Did staff have to have a pass to enter the hospital?

9 A. No. At the time I worked there, no.

10 Q. Did that change from after the takeover?

11 A. I don't know what change you have in mind. As I said, that day

12 passed normally without problems. I performed my duties in the usual

13 manner, as I had done before. Later --

14 Q. Sorry, continue.

15 A. I just wanted to say that the situation changed later in the

16 following days. On that day, nothing unusual happened.

17 Q. How did the situation change after that day?

18 A. I was already feeling uncomfortable because the atmosphere changed

19 amongst the people. I heard that many managers were dismissed in

20 Prijedor, that others had already been appointed to their positions. And

21 in terms of employment, the situation was slowly becoming insecure. But I

22 continued coming to work. Nothing happened as far as I was concerned.

23 Nobody told me anything. So that period of time, until I finally left, I

24 was fine. Maybe thanks to the colleague who trusted me. But he made me

25 feel more or less safe despite the overall situation.

Page 3049

1 Q. Excuse me. Doctor, excuse me, if we can just go back to the day

2 of the takeover, what, if anything, did you hear on the radio later that

3 day about the takeover?

4 A. The radio broadcast kept repeating those announcements. But since

5 I spent my time at work and then at home working, I didn't really pay much

6 attention to it but I know that the same announcement was repeated on the

7 radio several times.

8 Q. Was anything said on the radio about who would make decisions for

9 the municipality?

10 A. I cannot recall that.

11 Q. Did you or your husband speak with anyone from the Serb

12 authorities in the days that followed the takeover?

13 A. I did not, but my husband did have phone conversations during the

14 time that I was away at work.

15 Q. Was your husband instructed to do anything?

16 A. In which period was that?

17 Q. Immediately following the takeover.

18 A. I do not know of any special instructions. I know that there was

19 a courier who brought a letter to him, a document, informing him that his

20 functions have ceased, that he is on vacation.

21 Q. We will discuss that in a moment. Was your husband asked to speak

22 on radio?

23 A. Yes, once. But I cannot remember the date. I did not hear his

24 speech because I was at work, because every day I went to work. This is

25 how things were happening after the -- until the 30th of May. But he did

Page 3050

1 speak on the radio.

2 Q. Do you know who asked him to speak on the radio?

3 A. I do not know.

4 Q. You mentioned a moment ago that your husband received a letter

5 informing him that his functions had ceased, that he was on vacation. Do

6 you recall when he received this letter?

7 A. Yes. The same day, as soon as I came home, he told me: "I

8 received this document by a person, a person who's a dispatcher in the

9 assembly -- in the municipality" and who actually brought him the letter.

10 Q. Who was the document signed by?

11 A. I didn't see the document. Probably it was signed by a person who

12 replaced him. I didn't see the document. Even later, I did not recall to

13 look at it. I only know he received it -- I cannot really confirm as to

14 who signed it.

15 Q. Who replaced your husband?

16 A. My husband was replaced by Stakic, Milomir. So he was previously

17 his deputy who became -- who assumed his position.

18 Q. Do you know of others who received the same letter that your

19 husband did?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Do you have a copy of this letter?

22 A. I do not. After a while, after he was taken away from home, they

23 came to my house, and they took away anything of his personal documents

24 that he had, including his identity card, his passport. So I had nothing

25 left in written of him.

Page 3051

1 Q. You said that you continued to work.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. When was your last day of work?

4 A. 27th of May.

5 Q. Was your husband taken from your home to the police station for

6 questioning?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you recall the date?

9 A. Yes, I remember it well. It was the 23rd of May. It was

10 afternoon, around 3.30.

11 Q. How was he taken to the police station?

12 A. There were persons in police uniforms who came and who said that

13 he was supposed to be taken for an informative interview, and this is how

14 they told me that he would perhaps return the same day but maybe during

15 the night.

16 Q. Did he return that night?

17 A. No. At 9.00 in the evening, a phone rang, and it was him

18 personally speaking to me and telling me not to wait up for him, that he

19 certainly wasn't going to come back that night but maybe tomorrow.

20 Q. Did you attend at the police station to find out about your

21 husband?

22 A. Yes. The next day, 24th of May, I went to the police, and I

23 inquired after him. I asked if I could see him, and at the entrance, they

24 told me that I could not see him. Then in this case, since I wasn't

25 allowed to see him, I didn't have anything else to do but to go back home.

Page 3052

1 And on my way home, I was walking on one side of the street, and I saw on

2 the other side of the street Mico, Milan Kovacevic. He saw me, he greeted

3 me. I approached him and told him that my husband been taken the night

4 before. And I had been to the police station inquiring after him, and

5 that I wasn't allowed to see him. And he told me: "Okay, you go back to

6 the police station, and I will go to the municipality building, because

7 the police building and the municipality building are just across one from

8 another. He told me: "I will phone from there to the police station so

9 that they allow you to see your husband." And so I returned to the police

10 station. I sat there for a while in the waiting room --

11 Q. If you could just pause there for a moment, did Dr. Kovacevic seem

12 surprised when you told him that your husband had been taken to the police

13 station?

14 A. He was not surprised. Well, I cannot say that he was surprised in

15 any way, positively or negatively.

16 Q. When you returned to the police station, were you allowed to see

17 your husband?

18 A. Yes, they allowed me to see him, and that's when I saw him.

19 Q. Did you notice anything about your husband's condition when you

20 saw him?

21 A. He seemed tired. I saw that his feet were swollen. I know that

22 he had some problems with his heart, so I really paid attention to that.

23 But he didn't tell me much about what had been going on. He just started

24 talking about the people who were there with him, who were kept with him

25 in the prison. And I told him that I wasn't interested about these

Page 3053

1 people, but actually I was worried about us being eavesdropped by someone,

2 so he stopped talking about other people. I interrupted him.

3 Q. Did you visit him again at the police station?

4 A. Yes, I did. The next day, again, I visited him. They brought him

5 without any intervention. I saw him again the same way, in the same room.

6 But he already then was in a much worse shape. I brought him his glasses

7 because I thought perhaps he will need his glasses. He was a person

8 always reading books. But he told me: "I don't need my glasses. Take

9 them back home. It's all over with me." Something in this sense. And

10 then I told him: "Well, don't take it so badly. You are in prison

11 because you have a political -- different political opinion. It doesn't

12 mean that you are to blame for anything. Things will turn out fine."

13 This is how we talked. I tried to raise his courage a bit. And that was

14 the last time that I saw him.

15 Q. You mentioned that he told you the names of some other people that

16 had been detained with him. Do you recall the names of these people?

17 A. Just a bit. I have to adjust this. I can't hear it well. Now I

18 can hear.

19 Q. You mentioned that he told you the names of the other people that

20 were detained with him. Do you recall the names of these people?

21 A. Yes. I remember Zeljko Sikora. He was a physician working at the

22 hospital. He was a younger person. He was -- he used to be a student of

23 my husband's. He also told me about Ilijaz Music, and perhaps also

24 Muharem Murselovic. But I interrupted him. Perhaps he would have told me

25 some other names, but then he stopped. But he managed to tell me about

Page 3054

1 these two persons, because he didn't realise that perhaps he wasn't

2 supposed to tell me this.

3 Q. What were their ethnicities and what were their professions, if

4 you know?

5 A. I know the teacher was Bosniak, and Dr. Sikora, Zeljko was a

6 Croat.

7 Q. You said "the teacher." What's the surname of the teacher?

8 A. He was a professor, not a teacher. Music, Ilijaz.

9 Q. You said that was the last day that you saw your husband. Did you

10 try and visit him again?

11 A. Yes. The following day, I thought that he was still at the police

12 station, but I couldn't go out because I was on duty. I was working for

13 eight hours, but then I prolonged my duty until the 27th May, the morning

14 of the 27th. So I asked my colleague to write a pass for me to be able to

15 go out, because I told him I wanted to go and see what was happening with

16 my husband. So when I arrived at the police station, I was told that he

17 was already away and that he was -- that he had been transferred to

18 Keraterm.

19 Q. Did you go to the Keraterm camp?

20 A. I didn't. I wasn't allowed to go to Keraterm.

21 Q. Why not?

22 A. There was -- the military there was present in large numbers, and

23 I knew that I would have problems if anyone intercepted me. I knew that I

24 would have to have a pass to move around the town, and I didn't want to

25 obtain a pass. So I knew that I wasn't supposed to go there.

Page 3055

1 Q. Who issued these passes to move about the town?

2 A. I never tried to obtain one, but I was told that it was in the

3 Crisis Staff that one would get them.

4 Q. You said that you continued working until the 27th of May, 1992.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Can you tell the Court what happened at work that day.

7 A. On the 27th of May, I ended my duty. I actually was frightened to

8 stay in the hospital because the hospital was full of soldiers. I don't

9 know what they were doing there, but there was a lot of them, and I had

10 this pressing need to go and see my husband. So I asked a colleague of

11 mine to write for me a document allowing me to go on vacation, and also

12 some days off, because I had some days off after my duty. I wanted to

13 stay at home and to relax a bit. My colleague told me: "Don't do this.

14 I don't think it would be a very good idea for you to stop working. You'd

15 better come to work. Things will be fine." He was laughing. He told me:

16 "The only thing that they will do is they will remove the two of us.

17 Somebody else will be running the hospital." I told him: "Well, I didn't

18 really care about that." So I did go home. I decided that I would not go

19 on vacation. But in the evening, someone --

20 Q. Just pause there. Whilst you were at work, the colleague you

21 referred to earlier, was that your superior, Dr. Tesinic?

22 A. Yes, yes. He was the only one that I actually communicated with

23 in that period. It was him that I was referring to.

24 Q. And I'm sorry I interrupted you. You were about to say: "In the

25 evening."

Page 3056

1 A. Someone informed my brother that I was not supposed to show up in

2 the hospital the next morning, and I did not. And the following day, a

3 nurse who was a neighbour of mine brought me a document saying that as of

4 yesterday, I was on vacation. And then subsequently, I found out that

5 that same morning, all the people who showed up for work were stopped by

6 soldiers at the entrance. Those who were Serbs were allowed in. But also

7 some Muslims who were obviously needed. But in general, Bosniaks and

8 Croats were sent to go home. I didn't personally see it, because I was

9 spared that since I had my vacation.

10 Q. Did Dr. Tesinic continue to work?

11 A. Not as a director, but as a physician, as an eye doctor on his --

12 in his department.

13 Q. Do you know who replaced Dr. Tesinic?

14 A. I know because I was told when I needed something, a favour, they

15 told me that Dr. Radojka was now the director. I needed a favour from

16 her, and this is why I phoned her by phone from home.

17 Q. What was her last name?

18 A. Dr. Radojka Elenkov.

19 Q. What ethnicity was she?

20 A. Serb.

21 Q. I'm sorry. You may have said it before. What was Dr. Tesinic's

22 ethnicity?

23 A. He was a Serb. I said that already.

24 Q. Do you know why he was replaced?

25 A. I do not know, but judging from what he told me, and the way he

Page 3057

1 laughed about it, he probably was not a trusted person, since he was

2 placed in the same category as myself to be removed from the position.

3 Obviously, he was not as the person that was required for that position at

4 the time.

5 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I notice the time. I'm just about

6 to show the witness a document, so perhaps I can do that tomorrow.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We can proceed with the document, first the

8 document now.

9 MS. SUTHERLAND: If the witness can be shown the document that's

10 marked P650 in the Rule 65 ter exhibit list. The ERN number for the B/C/S

11 is P0055291, and the ERN number for the English translation is 03044478.

12 Q. Doctor, what is the date of that document?

13 A. 10 June 1992.

14 Q. And who has the document been issued by?

15 A. By the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Province of Krajina.

16 Q. If you could just read the text below the date of the document.

17 A. Below?

18 Q. Where it says over to the right-hand side of the page.

19 A. "Crisis Staff, Autonomous Region of Krajina".

20 Q. Then it has the reference number and the date. Then the text on

21 the right-hand side of the page under the date.

22 A. "Copy, extracts from the conclusions of the Krajina, Autonomous

23 Region, Crisis Staff."

24 Q. And what is the date of the session of the autonomous region

25 Krajina Crisis Staff in the first paragraph?

Page 3058

1 A. "At the session of the Crisis Staff of the Krajina Autonomous

2 Region held on 3 May 1992, adopted the following..."

3 Q. Is that 3 May or 13 May?

4 A. There is a 1 in front of 3. It's 1 and 3.

5 Q. And this Crisis Staff conclusion, who was it sent to? Under the

6 text on the right-hand side, does it say who it's sent to?

7 A. "To all socially and privately owned enterprises."

8 Q. Can you read out the third paragraph under the "conclusion."

9 A. "In the managing positions of the enterprises in the Serbian

10 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina must be filled with people who are

11 absolutely loyal".

12 Q. And whose is the signature block just below that?

13 A. President Radislav Brdjanin, and the authenticity of the

14 translation is certified by -- well, Radislav Brdjanin.

15 Q. It says: "The authenticity of this copy is certified by..." Can

16 you read the name below that text.

17 A. No, I cannot.

18 Q. Can you read the text under the name?

19 A. Yes. It's secretary of the secretariat for the economy, perhaps

20 Travar. I'm not sure.

21 Q. Can you read the stamp that's on that document?

22 A. "Prijedor, Municipal Assembly of Prijedor." "Prijedor Municipal

23 Assembly," yes. "Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina."

24 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Ranko Travar?

25 A. I do not.

Page 3059

1 MS. SUTHERLAND: If that document can be returned to the

2 Registrar.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May we then conclude for the day, but before the

4 document tendered.

5 Objections by the Defence?

6 MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, thank you, Your Honour. We do have objections

7 to the document. Essentially the same as the prior on the document, and I

8 recognise the Court's ruling that you will accept it, but this witness

9 specifically stated that she didn't recognise the person. Hasn't laid the

10 proper foundation thus far at least with her testimony to allow this

11 document to come in.

12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, the Prosecution will be calling an

13 investigator which will -- who will be able to give evidence as to the

14 source of this document, where this document was seized from.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: As we said earlier, it's only the question

16 whether or not this document exists. It may be a photocopy of an existing

17 or not existing document. This is a question of evaluation of the

18 evidence, and therefore this document is admitted into evidence as S48A in

19 the English version, and S48B in B/C/S.

20 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, the Prosecution will also submit

21 this document for a revised translation because in the English translation

22 it does say "at its session of 3 May, 1992" when in fact on the B/C/S

23 document, you can -- it can be seen it is 13th of May, 1992.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You can be sure we are aware of this problem.

25 But we have to conclude for today. The trial stays adjourned until

Page 3060












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 3061

1 tomorrow morning, 9.00.

2 [The witness stands down]

3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

4 1.52 p.m., to be reconvened on

5 Wednesday, the 15th day of May, 2002,

6 at 9.00 a.m.