Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3484

 1                          Friday, 24 May 2002

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          [The witness entered court]

 5                          --- Upon commencing at 2.28 p.m.

 6            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Please be seated.  Could you please call the

 7    case.

 8            THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon.  This is Case Number IT-97-24-T,

 9    the Prosecutor versus Milomir Stakic.

10            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Good afternoon, everybody.  Could we have the

11    appearances, please.

12            MR. KOUMJIAN:  Good afternoon.  Nicholas Koumjian with Ruth Karper

13    for the Prosecution.

14            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Thank you.

15            MR. LUKIC:  Good afternoon, Branko Lukic with Mr. John Ostojic for

16    the Defence.

17            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Thank you.  May we --

18            MR. KOUMJIAN:  Your Honour, before we begin, I just want to inform

19    the Trial Chamber, in light of some of the comments of the Trial Chamber

20    yesterday and in today's conference, there is a video that we were

21    planning on showing with the next witness, who actually took it, of the

22    Kozarac area taken last summer, if the Court, Trial Chamber, wanted to

23    show that to the witness, it's available today.

24            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Thank you for the information.  We should

25    immediately proceed with the cross-examination.

Page 3485

 1            MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2                          WITNESS:  WITNESS P [Resumed]

 3                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

 4                          Cross-examined by Mr. Ostojic:  [Continued].

 5       Q.   Good afternoon, Witness P.  Once again, my name is John Ostojic.

 6    Thank you for coming and we'll try to be brief this afternoon.

 7            Sir, I'd like to focus your attention on the Trnopolje camp as

 8    you've described it.  I'd like to ask you, were you ever at the Trnopolje

 9    camp prior to May of 1992?

10       A.   I knew Trnopolje.  Sometimes I would transport some construction

11    materials from a shop, and also for the 1st of May celebrations, various

12    sports events would take place there.  And this is how I am familiar with

13    the area of Trnopolje.

14       Q.   I understand from your testimony that you were brought to

15    Trnopolje camp for a couple of days starting on May 26th of 1992.  Were

16    you at Trnopolje the May 1st prior to May 26th, 1992, for purposes that

17    you just described in your answer, or was it the year before?

18       A.   It may have been a year before, because I went there for the 1st

19    of May celebrations then.

20       Q.   [Previous translation continues]...  Trnopolje a year prior to May

21    of 1992 or thereabouts, can you describe for us how it was different in

22    appearance, if you can, how it was different in appearance from -- and

23    we're trying to limit the question to the actual structures of the camp.

24    How was it different in May of 1991 to that which you saw in May of 1992

25    when you were detained there?

Page 3486

 1       A.   I am sure that the school existed also the year before, and also

 2    during the time when the camp was there.  As for the cafe that I also

 3    mentioned across the road from the Trnopolje hall building, the cafe was

 4    also there for a long time.  The large cinema hall itself was also there

 5    for a long time, and now whether it was refurbished a year ago or some

 6    time ago I can't really tell you.  The shop was also there all the time.

 7    I don't know whether it was bigger or smaller before than at the time when

 8    I was there.

 9       Q.   Can you help us and tell us, if you wish, whether or not there

10    were any homes immediately adjacent to the property that we now refer to a

11    the Trnopolje camp?

12       A.   Well, across the road from the shop that I mentioned, there were

13    some houses there.  And as you went on towards Kozarac, further up from

14    the school towards Kozarac, this area was inhabited quite densely on both

15    sides of the Trnopolje/Kozarac road.

16       Q.   Is it fair to state that the Trnopolje camp was actually in the

17    middle of a residential housing community, if you know?

18       A.   Well, one could say that they were on the outskirts of the areas

19    inhabited by people, because there was also the railroad and the fish

20    pond.  So that would be the outer boundary of the inhabited area of

21    Trnopolje.

22       Q.   Tell us, if you will, in 1992, May, the two or so days that you

23    were there, whether there was a fence surrounding the Trnopolje camp?

24       A.   Partially yes, and partially no.

25       Q.   Get back to that in a moment.  Tell us in 1991, or whenever you

Page 3487

 1    were there prior to May of 1992, whether there was a fence surrounding the

 2    Trnopolje camp?

 3       A.   I think that the fence existed in 1991.  It fenced off a section

 4    of the Trnopolje/Kozarac Road and the Trnopolje/Prijedor, the old road,

 5    Trnopolje/Prijedor, the intersection there, as far as I can remember.

 6       Q.   Yes, thank you.  And I recognise that it's been some time, ten

 7    years or so, since you were there.  But if you could help us, is it fair

 8    to state that the fence that was, if I can call it partially, surrounding

 9    the Trnopolje camp was the same fence in 1991, and prior to that, 1990, if

10    you had visited then, as it was in 1992, May, when you were detained

11    there?

12       A.   I can't recall the details.  I do know that there were some

13    fenced-in areas before and after May 1992.

14       Q.   Do you know, sir, where the checkpoint was at the Trnopolje camp,

15    how far away or how close in proximity to the entrance of the camp it was?

16       A.   The access to the camp was from the Kozarac side, from the

17    Prijedor side, and to the south from the railway station.  So the point

18    that I myself saw, the checkpoint, I was able to see the checkpoint in the

19    direction of Prijedor while I was in the camp.  The other camps, I was not

20    interested in.  I wasn't moving around in the camp, and I didn't see them.

21       Q.   Finally, with respect to the fencing, if I may, is it fair to say

22    that there was not a fence at Trnopolje camp which surrounded the entire

23    camp?  Or as best as you can, if you can, help us in understanding the

24    dimensions of the fence, if it was on the south, east, north, west, or all

25    those borders?

Page 3488

 1       A.   I can't tell you that.  I will tell you, however, that during my

 2    stay there, and before I left the camp in Trnopolje, there was no fence

 3    that would enclose the entire perimeter of the Trnopolje camp.

 4       Q.   Can you estimate for us -- strike that.  Do you know, sir, if the

 5    Trnopolje camp or property premises were used in 1991 and/or 1992 to house

 6    Serbian refugees from the area of Croatia?

 7       A.   I don't know.

 8       Q.   Let me move to a different -- slightly different area.  In

 9    discussing your arrival to Trnopolje camp on May 26, 1992, I believe on

10    page 43, line 20 of your transcript and your testimony two days ago, you

11    mentioned that you slept in your own vehicle.  Correct?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   Can you tell us or give us an estimate, sir, how many other

14    persons, while they were detained in Trnopolje camp, actually brought

15    their vehicles and slept in their vehicles during the time period,

16    obviously, that you were there, two or so days?

17       A.   There may have been several dozens of cars, several dozens of

18    tractors, and several trucks.  And also some tents that were set up next

19    to the tractor trailers or perhaps were just standing on the meadow in

20    front of the school and in front of the Trnopolje community hall.

21       Q.   You also mentioned to us, briefly, and I'm summarising it, and

22    correct me if I am wrong, that after approximately nine days your wife

23    left Trnopolje camp, and that she, although your father and your brothers

24    remained, she would go to Trnopolje camp every other day in order to

25    provide for your family and others, possibly, milk, food, cheese, dairy

Page 3489

 1    products, et cetera.  Do you recall that testimony?  It's page 48, line 19

 2    through 20, for the record.

 3       A.   Yes, that's what I said.

 4       Q.   Just to refresh your recollection on that, you also were asked by

 5    the Office of the Prosecutor whether or not there was a risk or danger to

 6    your wife assisting, and I believe on page 48, line 19, the question was

 7    as follows:  "Was it dangerous for your wife to go to Trnopolje?"  Line 20

 8    page 48, answer:  "It was dangerous.  Any form of movement was dangerous.

 9    There were many drunk soldiers along the road who were not subject to any

10    control or command.  There were cases of rapes, women, of murders of

11    people passing by.  It was always a risk."

12            Do you remember giving that testimony, sir?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   I just have a couple follow-up questions on that if you don't

15    mind.  When you say "many drunk soldiers" on line 21 of that answer, what

16    do you mean by that?

17       A.   That's what I heard from my wife.  Any number higher than one is

18    many.  You can imagine how frightening it is for a woman to pass by such

19    people who were drunk and asking:  "What do you want, do you have any

20    money." That was the fear that women couldn't describe, and they actually

21    preferred not to talk about it and not to talk about such occurrences.

22       Q.   I most certainly understand, sir.  My question, however, is were

23    you ever told by your wife or others any specific number which would

24    quantify for us the amount that was mentioned "many drunk soldiers"?

25       A.   No, I don't know the number.

Page 3490

 1       Q.   You also, sir, with respect to the answer that you provided two

 2    days ago on page 48, lines 20 through 23, where you stated that "there

 3    were many drunk soldiers along the road who were not subject to any

 4    control or command."  What do you mean, sir, when you say "who were not

 5    subject to any control or command"?

 6       A.   Well, a normal soldier who is under some kind of control shouldn't

 7    be drunk while on duty, and he would have to abide by the normal rules of

 8    conduct, in accordance with the regulations when communicating with

 9    civilians, which was not always the case.

10       Q.   You mentioned also an instance where there were drunk soldiers on

11    the road from Omarska to Manjaca.  Do you remember that?

12       A.   I remember that.

13       Q.   In that instance, sir, do you remember how many drunken soldiers

14    are we referring about?

15       A.   When the bus stopped in a Serb village called Hankola, three or

16    four such soldiers entered our bus and beat us on the bus where I was.  So

17    I can assure you that there were four soldiers, three or four soldiers,

18    who entered the bus in Hankola in front of the cafe and beat people who

19    were transported from Omarska to Manjaca.

20       Q.   So just to the record is clear, this was an instance where you saw

21    drunk soldiers again, taking part in certain activities that you've

22    previously described from the time in Omarska while you were going to

23    Manjaca.  Correct?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   Thank you.  Were these soldiers that you saw also, as you

Page 3491

 1    described the soldiers that were dangerous during the Trnopolje events

 2    that we just talked about, were they also not subject to any control or

 3    command?

 4       A.   Well, in my opinion, it was a willful act by these people.

 5       Q.   And isn't it correct, sir, that it was the willful act of these

 6    individuals that you're talking about.  Correct?

 7       A.   In this case that I experienced, I can say that it was the case.

 8       Q.   Staying with this theme for a moment, if I may, in Omarska when

 9    you were detained in Omarska camp during the Petrovdan celebration July

10    11th and July 12th, 1992, that you described, and the bonfire, if you

11    remember that testimony -- do you remember that?

12       A.   I spoke about the big tyre from a Caterpillar vehicle.  I wasn't

13    talking about any pyre.

14       Q.   Fair enough.  It was a fire that was started with a tyre or large

15    tyres as you've described it.  I'm just trying to direct you to that day

16    or that date and that place, because I have some questions in connection

17    with that. So, the evidence will stand and I apologise if I've misstated

18    what you've earlier testified on that issue.  All I want today is have you

19    focus on the July 11th and July 12th facts that you shared with us in

20    connection with that Petrovdan celebration.  Fair enough?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   On page 50 of your testimony, you described that on July 11th,

23    there was a lot of rejoicing and singing.  Let me get the page number.  Do

24    you remember that?

25       A.   Yes, I do.

Page 3492

 1       Q.   Now, also, sir, can you tell us whether or not there was a lot of

 2    drinking by the people who were either securing or providing some sort of

 3    security at the Omarska camp on that July 11th and 12th, namely, either

 4    the military personnel or the guards that were previously described?  Were

 5    they drinking?

 6       A.   I didn't see any of them with a bottle in his hand.  But on the

 7    basis of the songs that they were singing and the laughter and the events

 8    that occurred later around the white house, one could establish quite

 9    clearly that these people were, in fact, drunk.  To what degree and what

10    the actual number of people was, it was impossible to determine that with

11    total security from that place.

12       Q.   One moment.

13            If I may be permitted to read from the statement that you provided

14    to the OTP on August 26th through the 30th, signed on September 1st, 1994,

15    page 19, first full paragraph, which starts one quarter of the page down.

16    If the Court would permit me to read that paragraph.  I'm going to read

17    the entire paragraph and if the Court feels I need to stop at any point,

18    because my point stops at halfway, but I'll proceed.  Page 19 of your

19    statement, sir:  "On Petrovdan, the Serbs were shooting more than usual.

20    They were drinking a lot.  Petrovdan is celebrated on the evening of the

21    day before.  This is the celebration started on the 11th and continued on

22    all through the next day.  To the Serbs it didn't mean anything to pull a

23    prisoner out from the white house and put him on the fire.  During the

24    daytime, nothing much happened.  They were, in general, very drunk.  It

25    was during the night on the 11th going on to the 12th that they were

Page 3493

 1    taking out people, beating them, and throwing them on the fire.  It was

 2    mainly the guards who would do anything with the prisoners.  Those guards

 3    did what they wanted.  On the evening of the 12th, there was no fire.

 4    When they threw people on the fire, they were more dead than alive.  They

 5    would beat the prisoners almost dead and then throw them on the fire.  I

 6    think approximately ten people thrown on the fire.  At night, it is

 7    difficult to see exactly, but there were screams of the people when they

 8    were thrown on the fire.  I stood at the window for ten minutes, and

 9    during that time, I saw one person thrown on the fire.  I heard the

10    screams of other people.  I do not know who the other people were, nor do

11    I know the names of the guards who threw people on the fire.  People who

12    were in rooms 26 and 15 would be able to say much more about the white

13    house and what happened there because their rooms were almost right

14    opposite the white house."

15            Sir, does this help refresh your recollection that, in fact, the

16    guards and the personnel at the camp on or about Petrovdan were not only

17    drunk and were not only drinking a lot, but as you say in the fourth or

18    fifth sentence, they were "very drunk"?

19       A.   Well, whether they were drunk or very drunk, the difference, as

20    far as I'm concerned, is not really great.  Now, whether I said drunk,

21    very drunk, or slightly drunk, everything above two or three pomels ^ is

22    considered to be drunk by law.

23       Q.   Nonetheless, they were drunk.  The guards who were throwing the

24    prisoners, as you've described, were intoxicated.  Correct?

25       A.   That doesn't give them the right to throw people into the fire.

Page 3494

 1       Q.   And sir, I agree with you on that point.  However, all I'm trying

 2    to understand, from a factual standpoint, is it correct that the guards,

 3    or the personnel, that were throwing the detainees, however wrong it may

 4    be, that they were, in fact, drunk.  Correct?

 5       A.   Can we say that they were half drunk?

 6       Q.   If I may just ask the Court for just some instruction.  I'm not

 7    sure to respond to the witness.  I'm not sure that I got a responsive

 8    answer to my question, if the Court believes that I have, I will move on?

 9            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  I think the answer was exhaustive.

10            MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you.

11       Q.   Similarly to the drunken soldiers that you experienced or that

12    your wife was put at risk for during the Trnopolje visits she made to your

13    father and two brothers and similarly to the drunken soldiers you

14    described to us, during the Omarska to Manjaca, were these drunken

15    personnel, guards or soldiers, also not subject to any control or command?

16       A.   I cannot evaluate that.  If there had been any proper control, I

17    don't think that there would be any alcohol in the workplace.  In my

18    opinion, they were able to decide themselves what to do and how to act.

19       Q.   You also, if I may just turn the subject a little bit, turn to

20    another subject, you also described additional prisoners or prisoners,

21    detainees, who were at greater risk at Omarska.  At one point I think you

22    mentioned that prisoners who had money and prisoners who were politically

23    involved were at greater risk.  Do you remember that testimony?

24       A.   I do.

25       Q.   With respect to the --

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Page 3496

 1            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Could we please have the interpreters that we

 2    have once again on channel 4 the English translation.

 3            THE INTERPRETER:  Can you hear us now?

 4            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Yes, okay.  We may proceed.

 5            MR. OSTOJIC:

 6       Q.   Sir, do you know, with respect to the prisoners who were

 7    identified or isolated and at risk because of their personal wealth, do

 8    you know if these crimes that were committed upon them were random acts of

 9    a criminal element who sought to rob and steal personally from certain

10    detainees at the Omarska camp?

11       A.   I can't tell that.

12       Q.   Do you know, sir, if there were any acts of personal vendetta by

13    any of the guards or personnel at the camp, against any of the detainees?

14       A.   Well, in my opinion, all the police officers that were detained in

15    the camp disappeared from the camp in unknown circumstances, and the

16    assumption is that they were all killed.  In many such cases, these were

17    acts of revenge towards the police officers on the part of the camp

18    leadership.  People also who were higher up from the camp, the leadership

19    of the municipality, and we may go on.  The region, republic, Yugoslavia,

20    it was a well-organised chain of liquidations of individuals and groups.

21       Q.   I understand.  Let me ask you this:  Do you know of any instances

22    where a person or individual detainee was killed as a result of jealousy

23    between any of the people watching the detainee and that individual

24    detainee, whether it be that he was wealthy, owned a restaurant, or was a

25    police officer or politically active?  Do you know of any such instance,

Page 3497

 1    sir?

 2       A.   I don't know whether it was the idea of individuals to kill these

 3    people.  The fact is that the people were killed.  I don't know who made

 4    decisions in the camp, why such decisions were made.  I don't know that

 5    either.  What the criterion was, according to which these people were

 6    selected, but we could assume these were the rich people, the police

 7    officers, active-duty servicemen, not to go into any more details.  So at

 8    any rate, the leadership of the camp in Omarska would have to give the

 9    criteria according to which they worked, although I assume that they do

10    not remember anything.

11       Q.   Let me direct your attention, if I may, to your statement given to

12    the OTP on August 26th through the 30th, 1994, signed on September 1st,

13    1994, page 23, first full paragraph.  If I may read this in connection

14    with the issue that we were just discussing, Your Honour.  Page 23, first

15    full paragraph from your statement, sir:  "Dedo Crnalic was one of those

16    killed in the morning.  He was one of the more wealthy people from

17    Prijedor.  He had a good restaurant.  He was a good tailor.  One of the

18    Serbs probably killed him because of jealousy.  I saw him killed.  He was

19    stabbed in the stomach, and then they cleaned their knives on his shirt

20    after they killed him."

21            Sir, with respect to that statement, as you sit here, and just

22    tell us what your testimony is, was Dedo Crnalic killed possibly because

23    of jealousy, probably because of jealousy, or you just don't know?

24       A.   I would have to ask the person who killed him why he did it, what

25    the true reason for it was.

Page 3498

 1       Q.   Approximately two and a half years after being detained at Omarska

 2    and giving the statement to the OTP, why at that time, sir, did you think

 3    that the person who killed Mr. Dedo Crnalic did it as a result -- probably

 4    killed him -- because of jealousy?

 5       A.   Well, would things have changed if he had been killed for some

 6    other reason?

 7       Q.   Let me ask you if I may, sir -- to change the subject, the topic,

 8    please, with respect to your initial presentation or arrival at Manjaca

 9    camp, you informed us that they at that time also asked for your

10    identification papers and essentially registered you.  And I'm

11    paraphrasing, sir.  If I'm incorrect on this, please clarify for me.  I

12    don't mean to incorrectly paraphrase your testimony.

13       A.   Yes, it was more or less like that.

14       Q.   You also told us, sir, that while you were detained in Omarska

15    that you were also essentially registered and the personnel there asked

16    for your identification papers, et cetera.  Do you remember that

17    testimony?

18       A.   Yes, I remember it.

19       Q.   My question is directly this:  Did you show the personnel at

20    Manjaca camp the same identification papers that you showed the personnel

21    at Omarska camp?

22       A.   Well, it was the only papers we had, we showed.

23       Q.   Right.  My question, though, is it fair to conclude, then, that

24    after showing your identification papers at Omarska camp, that you

25    actually retained and kept those identification papers with you during

Page 3499

 1    your entire stay at Omarska, and then presented those same identification

 2    papers to the personnel that asked you for them at the Manjaca camp,

 3    several months or whatever the time period is?  Would that be fair?

 4       A.   Well, most of the people kept their papers from the people in the

 5    Omarska camp.  We were definitely stripped of our ID when we arrived at

 6    the Manjaca camp.

 7       Q.   Is it your testimony, sir, that you do not have or you were ever

 8    returned your personal identification cards after your detention at the

 9    Manjaca camp?

10       A.   My ID card came in a big box, a box containing documents, to

11    Karlovac in the reception centre there.  And there everyone could look for

12    his ID.  Not all of the documents were found.  I'm speaking of my

13    particular case.

14       Q.   Yes, and that's what we're interested in.  Is it fair to state

15    that all the documentation that you had with you upon your arrival to the

16    Omarska camp was actually retained by you and brought to the Manjaca camp

17    with you?  Correct?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   Did you at any time, sir, while discussing the tragic events of

20    the spring and summer of 1992, did you ever discuss with any other

21    detainees whether there were drunken soldiers at any time at the Keraterm

22    camp?

23       A.   No, I didn't.

24       Q.   Can you tell us if you know, sir, what, if anything, prevented the

25    guards or the personnel at the Omarska camp, while you were detained

Page 3500

 1    there, from actually killing each and every one of the detainees there?

 2       A.   I didn't see.

 3       Q.   But as we know, and I don't want to be presumptuous, all the

 4    detainees were not killed.  Correct?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   I don't remember your specific testimony on this, and don't want

 7    to guess.

 8            MR. OSTOJIC:  If the Court will permit me.

 9       Q.   At one point, I believe you estimated from the number of detainees

10    at Omarska camp, how many do you believe were actually killed during the

11    time period that you were at the Omarska camp?

12       A.   I don't know the exact number.  Well, between a thousand and 2.000

13    people would be the assessment.  I don't know how true that is.  History

14    will tell.

15       Q.   If I may just elaborate on that, sir, how many people were

16    actually detained in Omarska during the time period that you were there?

17       A.   Well, we didn't know until we were actually released.  When we

18    were released, they said that a thousand five hundred people went to

19    Manjaca, and approximately the same number to Trnopolje.  And about 150

20    were left to stay there for another week or so.  And when the Omarska camp

21    was closed so as to show the international organisations that they had

22    beds to sleep in, that they had enough food, and then when we were

23    transferred to Manjaca a day or two after that, the Omarska camp was

24    visited by international organisations, the UNHCR and many others.  And

25    there, they saw our fairly normal state of affairs while they were

Page 3501

 1    visiting it.  Every prisoner had a bed, had enough food, was clean.  They

 2    were sitting in front of the kitchen, so that was the picture that the

 3    world was able to see, in connection with the Omarska camp.  At the

 4    moment, one of the prisoners, I don't know in what language he used to

 5    tell a foreigner, a foreign employee, that this was only -- a it was a

 6    wrong picture that some of the people had been taken to Trnopolje, to

 7    Manjaca, and then we were visited by these very same people in Manjaca,

 8    and they told us that they were given this information at the Omarska

 9    camp.

10            So about three to three and a half thousand people.  The number

11    varied.  People would come.  People would disappear.  I don't know what

12    the exact figures.  I think that the people who managed the camps have

13    these figures recorded somewhere.

14       Q.   All I'm interested, sir, is to know directly, during your

15    experience at the Omarska camp, how many did you personally see or know of

16    of detainees who were actually killed?

17       A.   Well, if I say that someone was taken away and never returned, I

18    don't know to say about him, whether he is to be proclaimed dead or

19    missing.

20       Q.   If the Court permits, and if the witness, you can classify them in

21    any way you wish.  I just want to know how you classify them and what that

22    number is, from your perspective directly, sir.

23       A.   Well, at least 50 people, to the best of my knowledge.  A number

24    of them I could see dead, and another number would disappear in the

25    direction of the white house.

Page 3502

 1    Q.   Thank you.

 2            Witness P, on behalf of the Defence, we would like to thank you

 3    for your cooperation and your testimony.  Again, we apologise that you've

 4    had to wait over a couple of days.  Thank you very much, sir.

 5            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Any re-examination?

 6            MR. KOUMJIAN:  Just one or two questions.

 7                          Re-examined by Mr. Koumjian:

 8       Q.   Witness P, you talked about yourself having been stopped at some

 9    checkpoints prior to the attack on Kozarac which I believe was exactly ten

10    years ago today.  You mentioned two checkpoints, Omarska and a second

11    checkpoint.  I believe you said Tunjica.  Is that correct?

12       A.   Tunjica, yes.

13       Q.   Do you know who was manning those two checkpoints?

14       A.   At one point in time -- in any case, the police was always

15    present. And very frequently, there was a military vehicle there with

16    people wearing military uniforms at those checkpoints.

17       Q.   Do you know if these were people of one ethnicity or not?

18       A.   Well, since the takeover of power in Banja Luka, it was obvious

19    that these were only Serb ethnicities in the police and in the army.

20       Q.   Thank you.

21            MR. KOUMJIAN:  No further questions on redirect.

22            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Thank you.

23                          Questioned by the Court:

24            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Witness P, sorry that I have to ask once again a

25    question you already answered.  It's for the purpose of the legal

Page 3503

 1    assessment, go into some detail.  On page 49 of the transcript, line 20,

 2    following you were asked:  "During your questioning, were you beaten at

 3    that time?"  It was Omarska camp.  Answer, line 21:  "During the

 4    interrogation, there was a civilian standing.  I had to sit on a chair

 5    wrong way around so that my back would be free for beatings.  During the

 6    interrogation, there was a civilian standing behind me.  A young person in

 7    uniform was questioning me.  The other one was taking down notes.  He

 8    wasn't interfering in the conversation.  And when the person interrogating

 9    was dissatisfied with my answer, then he would give a sign to the civilian

10    to beat me with a rubber baton."

11            Could you please tell us how long took this interrogation?  How

12    many times and where were you beaten?

13       A.   The interrogation lasted, perhaps, from between 20 and 30 minutes.

14    How many times I was beaten on my back, I really do not know.  In any

15    case, more than ten times.

16            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Witness P, in your statement from 1994, on page

17    12, last line, until page 13, first paragraph, you said:  "The

18    interrogation took approximately two hours.  My back hurt, but there was

19    no bleeding.  It was only black and blue.  No bones were broken.  My

20    colleague in the neighbouring room had two ribs broken during his

21    interrogation. They did ask me whether I heard the screams and beatings in

22    the other room.  They said if I didn't answer correctly, I would be

23    treated similarly and to just wait, that I would hear the screams."

24            In 1994, you told the representative of the OTP that it

25    interrogation took approximately two hours.  Is this correct?

Page 3504

 1       A.   Well, our arrival, the fact that we waited in front of the office

 2    where people were sitting, the interrogation itself, general discussion

 3    about what should be done with us, this is what I meant when I said a

 4    longer period of time.  But the interrogation itself lasted up to half an

 5    hour.

 6            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Thank you for this clarification.

 7            In the same statement of 1994, page 15, second paragraph, you

 8    said:  "After my first interrogation, nothing happened to me except when

 9    they came and asked for my money.  Bjelobrk, he was a taxi driver from

10    Omarska, he was the one telling them I had money.  I was advised to tell

11    them where my money was; otherwise, I could be beaten to death."  Do you

12    remember this, and could you explain the details of this?

13       A.   Well, I did give that statement.  Bjelobrk, how he came by

14    information and how he informed the guards about it, I do not know.  At

15    any rate, I spoke to a person who had to go along with Bjelobrk to his own

16    home to find money and gold for him.  That colleague told me:  "If they

17    should look for you, asking for money, you should say how much you have

18    and give it to them.  If you don't do that, you will not fare  well."  And

19    that is what I did.  Two or three of my colleagues who unfortunately tried

20    to give answers, they were taken away never to return.

21            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  You mentioned three names at that time.  I

22    continue to quote from the same paragraph:  "That happened to another

23    driver and the owner of the sawmill.  Ekrem Melkic was the driver and

24    Vasif Kahrimanovic was the owner of the mill.  Hilmil Nukic was another

25    driver.  His house burnt down and his money was in that house, so they

Page 3505

 1    didn't ask him many questions.  My house didn't burn down, and I had to

 2    draw sketches of the house to show them where my money was."  Is that

 3    correct?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  And the three persons you named here, they were

 6    never seen again?

 7       A.   Two, no -- are no longer alive, but one is.  I could also mention

 8    a third person who was taken away in the same fashion never to return.

 9            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Could you please give us the name.

10       A.   Vasif Alihodzic.

11            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Another issue:  On page 6 of your statement,

12    paragraph 2, in 1994 you said:  "This I heard from my friend, a Muslim

13    policeman.  He was sent back to Kozarac from his station in Prijedor and

14    told not to come back to work again.  I spent two months with this man in

15    Omarska.  He was taken away from there and never came back."  Do you

16    remember the name of this man?

17       A.   Dedo Arifagic is his name.

18            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Did you, during the two months that you spent

19    with this man in Omarska, discuss why, and by whom, he was sent back to

20    Kozarac from his station in Prijedor and told not to come back to work

21    again?

22       A.   Well, we didn't go into the details.  After the takeover in

23    Prijedor, someone of the police, of the police command in Prijedor,

24    controlled by the Serbs then, established contact with the police in

25    Kozarac to join the Serb police force and declare their loyalty.  And they

Page 3506

 1    had only insignia of the Serb police, which the people in Kozarac did not

 2    want to receive.  This is as much as I know about it.

 3            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Did your friend, the Muslim policeman, tell you

 4    who was in charge, giving order to the police, not only who was head of

 5    the police but also possible other superior persons?

 6       A.   No, he didn't speak about that.

 7            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Thank you.  And then finally, I want to turn to

 8    a totally different issue:  Could you please tell the Tribunal whether or

 9    not there was any change in the paying system by the banks, after the

10    so-called takeover?

11       A.   My company was in the Srbac municipality, and the payment

12    transactions that until then went to Sarajevo, were redirected to Banja

13    Luka or Belgrade.  I could note that from the new giro account numbers

14    which were in the various payment forms for insurance, pension insurance,

15    social insurance, and so forth.

16            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  In your statement of 1994, page 6, third

17    paragraph, you said:  "The companies were taken over by the Serbs.  The

18    paying system by the banks was now directed to Banja Luka, and from Banja

19    Luka it was directed to Belgrade.  I knew this because whenever I had to

20    make payments, I had to fill in two sides of the cheque.  On one side

21    there were blanks which I had to fill in for payments to Sarajevo and that

22    bit was missing.  In general, the paper was divided into three parts.

23    There was a stamp and blanks that had to be filled in for Sarajevo, the

24    second for the Opstina, and the third for Belgrade.  After the takeover,

25    they cut out the one -- they cut out the one for Sarajevo and replaced it

Page 3507












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 3508

 1    with Belgrade."  Is this correct?

 2       A.   Well, I don't know if I said cut out or replaced.  I cannot

 3    remember, but I know that the payment transactions, as a whole, went to

 4    all directions except Sarajevo.

 5            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Furthermore, you stated, quote from page 5,

 6    third-last paragraph:  "For example, we did not receive television

 7    broadcast from Sarajevo.  All the bank accounts for business payments, for

 8    electricity or gas or water were in Belgrade.  No money went to Sarajevo.

 9    All taxes went to Belgrade instead of Sarajevo.  It became difficult to

10    travel.  There was a lack of petrol."  Correct?

11       A.   That is correct.

12            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Thank you for this.

13            Judge Fassi Fihri.

14            JUDGE FASSI FIHRI: [Interpretation] Witness P, you said that the

15    white house was the antechambre of death, and that there was another

16    house, a red house.  What was the use of the red house?

17       A.   What was done in the red house, I know that the people that had to

18    slaughter cattle kept talking about the red house.  It could be seen

19    through the window.  And there, they could find remains of clothing, of

20    shoes of their well-known colleagues who had been taken out a day or so

21    before.  And that is why we called it the red house, because it was a

22    place where people were killed, probably during the night.  I don't know

23    the exact entrance, where the exact entrance of the house was.  We could

24    only see the house from the back.  That is all.

25            JUDGE FASSI FIHRI: [Interpretation] So the two houses were used

Page 3509

 1    for executioning people?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3            JUDGE FASSI FIHRI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Judge Vassylenko.

 5            JUDGE VASSYLENKO:  Thank you.

 6            Have you ever heard about Dr. Stakic before the April takeover in

 7    Prijedor municipality?

 8       A.   No, I didn't.

 9            JUDGE VASSYLENKO:  And what do you know about the role of Dr.

10    Stakic in the event you described in your testimony?

11       A.   Well, I never knew that everything was under his control.  I

12    didn't know what his position was, during the war.

13            JUDGE VASSYLENKO:  On the page 4 of your written testimony, taken

14    in August 1994, you said that the weapons changeover would occur at night.

15    After the 6th of April when the western world recognised Bosnia and

16    Herzegovina, how do you explain this?

17       A.   Well, I explain it by quoting what I said -- what I heard from a

18    Serb who lived in Banja Luka.  He told me that people of Serb ethnicity

19    received arms during the night.  It was also mentioned that people had to

20    keep their lights on so that they would know which houses were Serb houses

21    or whether someone would joke and that accidentally lights were on in the

22    house of a Muslim.  Whether they received arms or not, I do not know.  But

23    when the war began, all people of Serb nationality carried guns.  So the

24    assumptions and stories proved to be true.

25            JUDGE VASSYLENKO:  And who ordered to give arms to the population?

Page 3510

 1       A.   I don't know.

 2            JUDGE VASSYLENKO:  And one more question:  On the page 12 of your

 3    written testimony made in August 1994, you mentioned the function of the

 4    investigation commission in the Omarska camp.  What was the composition of

 5    this investigation commission, whom this commission was subordinated to?

 6       A.   I don't know who they were subordinate to officially.  I know some

 7    people by sight.  I recognised them during the interrogations.  I can

 8    mention their names.  That was Gostimir Modic.  Then a retired police

 9    officer by the name of Meakic, and the director of the Kozara National

10    Park.  I think his name was Knezevic.  I'm not sure, but I do know that he

11    was the director of the Kozara National Park.  I did not know the other

12    members of the commission.  I saw that commission in a joint meeting at

13    the time when I was brought to a room above the kitchen in Omarska, I

14    recognised these three men.  And their names were mentioned quite a few

15    times by other people who would also say:  "I was interrogated by such and

16    such a person" or so and so.  We heard that at the beginning, people from

17    Banja Luka would come in to interrogate.  At one point, there was a rumour

18    that those people stopped coming, because less and less people would be

19    brought in to the camp.  And that is why probably the people from Prijedor

20    continued to work on their own.

21            JUDGE VASSYLENKO:  Those people you mentioned, did they belong to

22    the police, to the military, or to civilian?  Who were they?

23       A.   I saw Meakic wearing a police uniform.  And as for Mr. Modic and

24    Mr. Knezevic, I saw them in civilian clothes.  So I don't know who they

25    were subordinate to.

Page 3511

 1            JUDGE VASSYLENKO:  I have no more questions.  Thank you.

 2            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

 3            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Any other questions?

 4            MR. OSTOJIC:  No, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 5            MR. KOUMJIAN:  No, Mr. President.  Thank you.

 6            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Then we all have to thank you, Witness P, for

 7    your patience with us and giving us so many detailed answers and insight

 8    of that what happened from your point of view in 1992.  And we have to

 9    thank you for this.  And you're excused.

10                          [The witness withdrew]

11            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  The trial stands adjourned until 4.00.

12                          --- Recess taken at 3.34 p.m.

13                          --- On resuming at 4.03 p.m.

14            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  We may then proceed, please, the OTP.

15       MR. KOUMJIAN:  Thank you.  The next witness is s

16            Your Honour, before Your Honours is a binder containing new

17    exhibits that the Prosecution intends to offer and to identify today and

18    have given numbers at least for identification today.

19                          [The witness entered court]

20            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  You're speaking about list 1, 2, 3?

21            MR. KOUMJIAN:  Yes.

22            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  If you could go into details.

23            MR. KOUMJIAN:  This binder contains the exhibits in list 2 and

24    list 3.  If Your Honours' information, list 2 contains exhibits broadly

25    interpreted as coming within the category of Crisis Staff or National


Page 3512

 1    Defence Council.  And list 3 includes specific exhibits that we planned --

 2    I haven't yet met with the next witness, but we plan to probably, or

 3    possibly depending on what I learn from the witness over the weekend, if

 4    he can comment on these, present and have the witness who will next

 5    testify on Monday comment on these exhibits.

 6            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Thank you.  Sorry for letting you stand there.

 7    Welcome, Mr. Inayat.  And could you please give the solemn declaration.

 8            THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

 9    whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Thank you, please be seated.

11                          WITNESS:  MAZHAR INAYAT

12            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  You may start.

13                          Examined by Mr. Koumjian:

14       Q.   Sir, would you state your name for the record.

15       A.   My name is Mazhar Inayat.

16       Q.   Mr. Inayat, can you tell the Chamber by who are you employed and

17    what is your title?

18       A.   I am currently working with the Office of the Prosecutor as an

19    investigator, and I have been the investigations team leader since

20    December of 1997.

21       Q.   When did you begin working for the Office of the Prosecutor of the

22    ICTY?

23       A.   My first working day at the Tribunal was 9th of August, 1995.

24       Q.   Prior to working with the United Nations, did you have any -- or

25    with the ICTY specifically, did you have any prior law enforcement

Page 3513

 1    experience?

 2       A.   Yes, I have been with the police force in Pakistan since 15th of

 3    December, 1980.

 4       Q.   Until what date approximately working?

 5       A.   I'm on absence of leave since 9th of August, 1995.  So I'm still

 6    employed by the police in Pakistan.

 7       Q.   Mr. Inayat, would you please inform the Trial Chamber regarding

 8    the handling of evidence by the office of the Prosecution, specifically

 9    when evidence is received or recovered, how is it physically handled,

10    where is it kept, and what records are kept documenting that evidence?

11       A.   As an investigator, if I were to take signed statements from

12    witnesses or if I were to receive documentary material from outside

13    agencies, the first thing I would do is when I come back to the Tribunal,

14    I would record the information in a form called "information indexing

15    form," the IFF form.  And in that form, I would list the source of the

16    information, when it was received, the dates it was received, the location

17    where it was received.  And if there were others involved with me, then

18    the evidence has been received.  And after completing the IFF form, I

19    would take the material to the evidence unit of the OTP, of the Office of

20    the Prosecutor.  And I would make an entry on their IFF register

21    indicating that I have brought the evidence.

22            The evidence unit would then forward the material to a records

23    clerk who would then stamp the evidence.  Each and every page has to be

24    stamped with a unique number, ERN number, evidence record number.  Once

25    the unique numbers have been stamped on to the documents, then they are

Page 3514

 1    sent for scanning, to scanners, who are also staff working in the evidence

 2    unit.  The scanners would then scan the material and then it's made

 3    available to the OTP staff and we can view it electronically either on our

 4    Keyfile database or on our Zyfind database.

 5       Q.   How do these procedures different for physical evidence, a

 6    firearm, for example, or for something such as a photograph or video?

 7       A.   I think the only differentiation is that if the evidence has been

 8    seized, then it has to be treated differently.  For example, if I'm on a

 9    search and seize mission and I have seized material under a search warrant

10    issued by this Chamber or by the Tribunal, then I have to complete a chain

11    of custody form immediately.  I have to write down the exact details of

12    immediately when that happens.  And then that chain of custody form

13    basically then is brought back with the evidence, and I'm the custodian of

14    that evidence up to the point it has been submitted with the evidence

15    unit.  And again, when I come to the evidence unit, I have to fill out

16    another form for the chain of custody, and then the material is taken over

17    by the evidence unit.  Same procedures are adopted for stamping and

18    scanning.  But the material from chain of custody will go in a separate

19    vault, not the normal vault.

20       Q.   How are the ERN number, the ERN numbers, given to physical

21    evidence?  You mentioned a stamp on each page.  Are physical items of

22    evidence also given ERN numbers?

23       A.   Yes.  Each and everything, even videos will be given -- of course

24    the ERN number for videos will start with the letter V.  And for audios,

25    it will start with the letter A.  But everything has to be stamped when it

Page 3515

 1    is registered with the evidence unit.

 2       Q.   You indicated that you have been with the Office of the Prosecutor

 3    for a long time.  How long have you been working on investigations related

 4    to the municipality of Prijedor?

 5       A.   When I was promoted as team leader in December of 1997, I joined

 6    the -- one of the teams in the Office of the Prosecutor referred to as

 7    team 1, which has been mainly responsible for investigating crimes in the

 8    northwestern Bosnia, Prijedor being part of that region.  So I would say

 9    that since December of 1997, 1st December, 1997, I have been working on

10    Prijedor.

11       Q.   I'd now like to go to a document labelled "list number 1."

12            MR. KOUMJIAN:  And perhaps, at this time, Your Honour, the three

13    lists could be given exhibit numbers, lists 1, 2, and 3 if that's --

14            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  No objections?

15            MR. OSTOJIC:  No, Your Honour.

16            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Could we please have the new numbers.

17            MR. KOUMJIAN:  I know the registry, I had asked them, indicated

18    the binders also be marked.  I don't know if they would prefer we mark the

19    binders first if they have already begun, if there's any preference.

20            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  I would say the list comes first, and then the

21    content.  So list number 1.

22            THE REGISTRAR:  List number 1 would be S53.  List number 2 would

23    be S54.  And list number 3 would be S55.

24            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Admitted into evidence under these numbers.

25            MR. KOUMJIAN:

Page 3516

 1       Q.   Mr. Inayat, is it correct that list number 1 was prepared by you?

 2       A.   I prepared the last column, which is called sources, yes.

 3       Q.   Does this list -- well, you wouldn't be able to testify to this.

 4            MR. KOUMJIAN:  But this list, for Your Honours' information,

 5    concerns items that are already admitted into evidence, that already have

 6    an exhibit number.

 7       Q.   On list number 1, Mr. Inayat, can you explain the last column

 8    "sources" what procedures you went through in order to fill in that

 9    column as to the source of the documents that have been admitted to date

10    on this case.

11       A.   I think it's important that I must make this very clear, that

12    "sources" only means that I'm trying to indicate how the OTP came about

13    these documents.  And the way to find this out is that if I have the ERN

14    number for a certain document which you can see is also mentioned in the

15    middle columns.  And I can go into Zyfind or Keyfile databases and also

16    the IFF database, and after reviewing those databases, I can get all the

17    information on the source and that's what I have done to indicate the

18    source in the last column.

19       Q.   As to list number 2 and number 3, did you also prepare those

20    lists?

21       A.   I did, yes.

22       Q.   And each of these, the documents are listed by 65 ter number.  Is

23    that correct?

24       A.   That is correct, yes.

25       Q.   And they also have the ERN or ERN numbers.  Correct?

Page 3517

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   Did you fill in the information regarding the source in the same

 3    manner?

 4       A.   Precisely.

 5       Q.   You mentioned, and it's indicated, on some of these sources, that

 6    these items were seized in Prijedor.  Are you familiar with the Office of

 7    the Prosecutor served search warrants in Prijedor at any time?

 8       A.   There was a search and seizure mission in Prijedor which was

 9    conducted on 12th of December, 1997.  A large team of investigators and

10    interpreters and lawyers went on that mission with search warrants issued

11    by Judge Fuad Riad in the first week of December 1997.  And we conducted

12    searches at four different locations in Prijedor.  I was personally a

13    member of the search team.

14       Q.   Was there a second search?

15       A.   There was a second search in Prijedor which was conducted at six

16    different locations, and this second search took place in October, from

17    28th -- sorry from 27th until 29th of October, 2000.  And again, I was a

18    member of that search team.  But on the second occasion, I have to

19    clarify, that we did not have search warrants, although we did have the

20    prosecutors' directive, which allowed us to conduct the searches.

21            MR. KOUMJIAN:  Your Honour, if the witness, if the map that has

22    been marked --

23            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  May I just, I'm a little bit surprised about

24    this document.  For example, reading on page 1 on the bottom line, SK44.

25    This document was never admitted into evidence.

Page 3518

 1            MR. KOUMJIAN:  Apparently there was an error made.

 2            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  I hope this is the only one.  Thank you.

 3            MR. KOUMJIAN:  Your Honours, may Exhibit S3 be displayed on the

 4    ELMO.

 5            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  And apparently, sorry, the same is true for SK

 6    43A and B.

 7            MR. KOUMJIAN:  That is correct.  That was the report that was not

 8    admitted.

 9            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Okay.  Thank you.

10            MR. KOUMJIAN:

11       Q.   Mr. Inayat, you indicated that these seizures, first in 1997, that

12    you went to four location inside Prijedor.  Are these locations indicated

13    on this map, the Prijedor town map, Exhibit S3?

14       A.   Yes, they are indicated, yes.

15       Q.   Can you point to those and indicate the four locations.

16        A.   This one here is the Municipal Assembly building, and this is the

17    location where I personally went to.  This here is the SUP or the police

18    station building.  A lot of my colleagues went there.  And the third one

19    is the SDS offices.  In fact, the arrow is indicating to the street, so

20    the SDS offices are very close to the end of this arrow.  That's the third

21    location.  And finally, a team went to this location which is the radio

22    station and Kozarski Vjesnik offices.  Kozarski Vjesnik offices will

23    locate in the radio station building, so that's the fourth location.  This

24    is 12 December, 1997.

25       Q.   Thank you.  And in the year 2000 seizures, can you indicate the

Page 3519












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Page 3520

 1    locations that were searched?

 2       A.   In October 2000, we searched the police station once again.  And I

 3    went there.  So let me put it like this.  Yes.  So I went to the police

 4    station here.  And I went on the 28th and 29th.  I went there on two days.

 5            Then we went to the Ljubija mine headquarters.  This is here.

 6    Then we went to the health centre, which is here.  The fourth location we

 7    went to was the Prijedor hospital, which is here.  The fifth location was

 8    in the Omarska camp, which you cannot see here on the map, which is

 9    further southeast of Prijedor.  So these were the locations we went in

10    October 2000.

11       Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Inayat, did you also prepare certain maps for use

12    in this case?

13       A.   Yes, I have.

14       Q.   And can you tell us what you used in order to prepare those maps,

15    what kind of computer programmes or hardware and software you used?

16       A.   The OTP has in its possession, geographical information systems

17    software called Artview.  We've had it since 1996.  The current version we

18    are using is Artview 3.2.  This is a software developed and which is owned

19    by an American company which has offices in Rotterdam, and the company is

20    called Esri.  I received training almost 18 months ago on how to use this

21    software.  It's a powerful tool which allows me to create a map and to

22    insert any information I want.  I can highlight villages.  Two arrows

23    indicate landscapes that I want to.  I have been frequently using the

24    system, and I think I probably believe something like four maps have been

25    exhibited in this case that I have created on Artview.

Page 3521

 1       Q.   How are the actual locations determined as far as the relationship

 2    between one location and another?  What is used in that software, do you

 3    know?

 4       A.   The software has a certain search tools.  For example, if I were

 5    to focus on the municipality of Prijedor, the actual map will not show me

 6    where Hambarine is, for example.  Just giving an example.  But using the

 7    search tool, if I were to highlight Hambarine, it will give me the exact

 8    coordinate, in fact, it will take me spot on where Hambarine is.  And then

 9    using certain other features from the programme, I can then use certain

10    dots or images or symbols to point where Hambarine is, and then I can use

11    even text to write the word "Hambarine."  So there are other tools such as

12    a tool that allows me to measure distances.  For example, if I wanted to

13    know the exact distance between Prijedor and, say, Kozarac, I will use

14    that tool and it will give me the exact distance.  As I said, it's a

15    powerful programme which allows me a number of things to do to prepare

16    maps which can then be seen and, you know, and in court.

17       Q.   If S51 could be displayed on the ELMO, please.

18            Sir, on some of the maps, there are photographs surrounding the

19    map.  Is that correct?

20       A.   Yes, I have prepared some maps on Artview where the trial team

21    wanted to also highlight digital images of relevant places, so I was able

22    to do that also.

23       Q.   Did you prepare today an indication for each of these photographs

24    that you used as to the date that that photograph was taken?

25       A.   Yes, I did create this three-page document which gives information

Page 3522

 1    on when the digital photographs appearing on these maps were taken.

 2       Q.   I believe that everyone should have a document which was

 3    distributed this afternoon, the first page, it's a spreadsheet.  And the

 4    first page or table, item number 1, is Ljubija/Brisevo overview.  Could

 5    this be marked as the next exhibit in order.

 6            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Could you please give us some guidance what you

 7    are speaking about.

 8            MR. KOUMJIAN:  Yes, it is a --

 9            MR. OSTOJIC:  Follows the three lists that were previously marked

10    independent from the binder.

11            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Okay.

12            MR. KOUMJIAN:  It's a three-page document.

13            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Here we are.  Right.  So consequently, it would

14    be 56.  Right?  Objections?

15            MR. OSTOJIC:  No objections, Your Honour.

16            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Admitted.

17            MR. KOUMJIAN:

18       Q.   Mr. Inayat, can you briefly explain this table that you prepared

19    in S56.

20       A.   If you look at the first column, it gives four serial numbers

21    which are for four different maps that I have prepared which have digital

22    images.  And then for each of these four maps, in the fourth column, you

23    will see digital photograph number.  This is the number which is on the

24    photograph on the map.  And the last column indicates the date when the

25    image was recorded by an investigator and the name of the investigator.

Page 3523

 1            MR. KOUMJIAN:  Your Honour, I have another document which should

 2    have been distributed indicating "index of Prijedor photographs."  May

 3    that be marked next in order, S57, I believe.

 4            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  57.  I can see no objections.

 5            MR. OSTOJIC:  No objection, Your Honour.

 6            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Admitted.

 7            MR. KOUMJIAN:

 8       Q.   Mr. Inayat, is it correct that this index of Prijedor photographs

 9    was prepared by you and indicates the source of the photographs that were

10    in Exhibit Number 15, I believe, S15, the booklet of photographs from

11    Prijedor for this case?

12       A.   Yes.  When I received this booklet which had something like 30-odd

13    photographs on it with ERN numbers, so I searched the sources as to how we

14    received the photographs.  And in the last column, I've indicated that.

15       Q.   Mr. Inayat, can you tell us -- briefly describe for the Trial

16    Chamber the procedure used when a statement is taken from a witness who

17    does not speak the same language as the interviewer.  What are the OTP

18    procedures for taking a statement through interpretation?

19       A.   I'll just give a personal example, because I have been involved in

20    taking statements from many witnesses.  So after I've identified a witness

21    who has to be met, I will call him, seek his permission for an interview.

22    Once that's given, I will go with an interpreter, occasionally also with

23    trial lawyer from the team, and we will meet with the witness.  After

24    introductions and in most cases after giving him my visiting card, we'll

25    spend about five, ten minutes explaining him the reason for this visit and

Page 3524

 1    how long the interview will take.  Of course, the interpreter is

 2    interpreting all along because most witnesses from former Yugoslavia, they

 3    do not understand English.  I have a laptop with me, and I explain this to

 4    the witness, that it might take a day or two, and that he has to give me

 5    brief answers which the interpreter will relay to me, and I'll ask him

 6    questions.  And we always ask witnesses to always distinguish between what

 7    they have seen and what they have heard.  So with some advice on these

 8    matters, we start with the interview.  Once the interview has been

 9    recorded, the investigator or, in my case, I would read the statement to

10    myself once again on the laptop and see if any additional follow-up is

11    required.  If it is required, then I'll ask additional questions to

12    clarify areas of his statement or her statement.

13            Once all that has been done and I have edited the statement, in

14    terms of spellchecks and things like that, then I will request the

15    interpreter to read back the statement to the witness. The interpreter is

16    looking at an English transcript, but she is translating that into the

17    B/C/S language.  Once the readback has been completed, investigators will

18    always ask the witness if he is satisfied with his or her statement

19    because they have to sign it, and since they are going to adopt it, they

20    have to say they are satisfied.  And once the witness is satisfied with

21    the statement, we will print the statement and we will ask the witness to

22    sign on the first page, initial all other pages, and finally on the last

23    page, there is a witness acknowledgment, in which the witness says that

24    the statement has been read back to me and that I agree with the contents.

25    In recent years, we've also inserted a B/C/S witness acknowledgment so

Page 3525

 1    that the witness can read this.  And then he will again sign the last

 2    page.  The interpreter will sign the interpretation.  There's a

 3    certification, interpretation certification.  She'll sign and initial all

 4    other pages.  And the investigator will also sign the first page and

 5    initial all other pages.

 6       Q.   Is the statement a verbatim -- taken verbatim from the witness,

 7    the witness's words, or is the statement first written in a narrative form

 8    by the investigator summarising the answers and information given by the

 9    witness?

10       A.   The matter that I've always used as an investigator, I have taken

11    down verbatim what the witness has been telling me.

12       Q.   Do you take down every word that the witness says?

13       A.   I take most of what the interpreter says.

14       Q.   Is the -- you indicated that the statement is read back.  You

15    prepare the statement in English.  Is that correct?

16       A.   That is correct.

17       Q.   And it's read back to the witness by the interpreter.  Is that

18    correct?

19       A.   That is correct.

20       Q.   Is the interpreter reading off the screen of the laptop normally

21    or off of printed material?

22       A.   It can vary from investigator to investigator.  I personally

23    prefer to allow the interpreter to sit with me and to start reading from

24    the monitor, from the laptop.  Some investigators prefer printing it out

25    and then doing the read back, but then if changes are required, then a lot

Page 3526

 1    of time is wasted.  So just to save time.

 2       Q.   You indicated that the witness signs the statement.  Is that

 3    statement the witness signs then, the English statement that you've

 4    prepared or the investigator has prepared?

 5       A.   Yes, certainly, yes, always invariably.

 6       Q.   Now, this Trial Chamber has seen B/C/S versions of those

 7    statements.  Can you explain when those are prepared?

 8       A.   So when I have taken statements from witnesses on mission, I'll

 9    come back and complete the IFF form for each statement.  It will go to the

10    evidence unit.  And then if the team has identified that particular

11    witness to testify or for further follow up, then a translation request is

12    put in to the CLS branch of the Tribunal where all translation work is

13    done.  And it is at that point that that English statement that the

14    investigator has taken is then translated into the B/C/S language.

15       Q.   Last summer, did you take a video, a film, from a helicopter over

16    the area of Prijedor, among other areas?

17       A.   That is correct, on 22nd of July, 2001, that happened.

18       Q.   Did you prepare an edited version of that tape?

19       A.   I have prepared an edited tape which is about 11 minutes and 40

20    seconds.

21       Q.   When you say edited, can you explain what you did to the first

22    film that you took?

23       A.   The first film that I took of Prijedor was something like 55

24    minutes, maybe even more than that, and having discussed this within the

25    trial team, it was believed in courts you don't have that much time to

Page 3527

 1    show the whole film, so it's better to just concentrate on the main areas

 2    that you want shown in the Court.  So keeping that in mind, I went to the

 3    audiovisual section in the Tribunal, and I had it edited to show only the

 4    relevant portions, related to the indictment I should say.

 5            MR. KOUMJIAN:  Your Honour, the video is prepared to be played.

 6    May it be given a number at this point.

 7            THE REGISTRAR:  This would be S58.

 8            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  I can see no objections.  Admitted.

 9            MR. OSTOJIC:  I'm sorry.  No objection, Your Honour.

10            MR. KOUMJIAN:  Your Honour, may we play S58, and may I ask the

11    witness at any point he wants to stop the tape, he can ask for it to be

12    stopped.  Please point out the sights that you recognise on the tape as

13    it's being played.  May we proceed in that manner.  Thank you, Mr.

14    President.

15            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We are looking at the Omarska

16    detention camp, and in the background you can see the open-cast quarry

17    where iron ore was extracted before the war.  This Your Honours, you can

18    see there are about four buildings.  The one nearest to us is the

19    administration building, and then there is this big red hangar building,

20    and the small building in front of the big red hangar building is the area

21    referred to as the white house.  This is the administration building, Your

22    Honours.

23            MR. KOUMJIAN:

24       Q.   Does that contain the kitchen?

25       A.   That does contain the kitchen on the front portion on the ground

Page 3528

 1    floor.

 2       Q.   Can you see the red house?

 3       A.   Yes, the red house is the small --

 4            THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel and the witness please slow

 5    down and make pauses between question and answer.  Thank you.

 6            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the open-cast quarry, which

 7    is about I would say 500 metres from the main hangar building.  And this

 8    camp, Your Honours, is located southeast of Prijedor about 21 kilometres I

 9    would say by road.

10            MR. KOUMJIAN:  Can we stop the tape at this point.

11       Q.   We see some roads here by the camp.  Can you explain where those

12    roads go?

13       A.   In fact, what I'm looking at right now is there is -- one of

14    the -- this road is basically is going around the camp.  And if we just

15    play this a little bit, I can then point out the direction it takes to go

16    to Trnopolje.  This is just coming out of the camp now.  And this road

17    that you see is heading west towards Trnopolje.  And the rail track is

18    also running parallel.  In the distance you can see the fish pond, which

19    is very close to the Trnopolje camp.  [Need notation for video played].

20            This is, Your Honours, I think about -- less than 5, maybe 6, 7

21    kilometres from Omarska.  This is the fish pond I was referring to, which

22    is located south of Trnopolje camp.  In fact, very close to the camp.

23    This, Your Honours, in the very centre of your screens is the big white

24    building which before the war was a school in Trnopolje and turned into a

25    detention area, also known as the Trnopolje camp.

Page 3529

 1            And the railway station in Trnopolje is located about 200 metres

 2    from this camp.  Initially, most people who were deported were deported

 3    from this railway station.  Your Honours, this grassy area that you see at

 4    the back of the camp, this was mainly used for the refugees.  The majority

 5    of refugees who couldn't go into these buildings inside were staying

 6    outside.  The smaller white building that you see to the right of your

 7    screens was also part of this camp, but it was the community centre.  And

 8    just behind it was the Serbian Red Cross headquarters.  This place,

 9    Trnopolje, Your Honours, is about 5 kilometres south of Kozarac, where we

10    will be heading now after we have finished with Trnopolje.

11            This is the railway station, Your Honours, at the bottom of your

12    screens.  This is a road coming from Omarska, the car is heading towards

13    Trnopolje from Omarska.  So this is an asphalt road right in front of the

14    Trnopolje camp heading towards Kozarac on the right side.  This is in

15    between Kozarac and Trnopolje, the Ukrainian orthodox church, which is

16    still intact.  And very close to this church are the small hamlets of

17    Jaskici and Sivci, places that will probably be mentioned during the

18    course of this trial.  The main road heading towards Kozarac.

19            This here, Your Honours, is Kozarac.  And Your Honours, this is

20    Kamicani.  Look at it very close to Kozarac.  This, Your Honour, is the

21    big road that you see at the bottom, is the main Banja Luka/Prijedor Road.

22    Banja Luka is about 48 kilometres from Prijedor.  We are still in

23    Kamicani.  And this, the centre of your screens, is the wood-processing

24    plant in Kozarac.  And very soon you will see the intersection, the main

25    intersection of Kozarac.  This, Your Honours, is the orthodox church in

Page 3530

 1    Kozarac.  And here you can see Kozarac village, which is quite a big

 2    settlement.  Another view of Kozarac looking north.

 3            Your Honours, there is a road from Kozarac, a metal road going up

 4    to the top of the mountains, about 9 to 10 kilometres in distance.  It

 5    takes you to Benkov's barracks.  This is the Benkov's barracks.  These

 6    barracks, before the war, were used as a summer camp for students from all

 7    over the country, but in January 1992 was taken over by the RS army, the

 8    JNA and later the VRS.  And even today, it is with them.

 9            You can see those barracks at the back, facing the forest.  There

10    are several barracks.  And end of May, beginning of June, people who were

11    fleeing from Kozarac, they were arrested from the forested area and

12    detained here for several weeks before being transported to other camps in

13    Prijedor.  So these are the barracks which were used as detention.

14            From here, Your Honours, we'll be heading west.  And the first

15    location we'll come to is the Keraterm ceramics factory which is also

16    known the detention camp.  Your Honours, at the bottom of your screen,

17    the big building you see is the Keraterm factory.  The brick factory is

18    just behind it.  We may not be able to see, this one on the right.  This

19    factory is located less than 2 kilometres from Prijedor centre.  And on

20    the main Prijedor/Banja Luka Road.  Your Honours, now you will be seeing

21    at the very bottom of your screens, I will indicate that, the offices of

22    the Kozara Putovi construction company which you just saw the red roofs at

23    the bottom of your screens.  And these offices were used for

24    interrogations during the initial operation of this detention camp.

25            This is the front view of the Keraterm camp.  And you see an

Page 3531












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 3532

 1    asphalt path leading to a metal door here, Your Honours.  You will see it

 2    again.  This is referred to as room number 3.  It's right in the centre of

 3    your screens now.  And rooms 1 and 2 were to the left, and room 4 to the

 4    right.  Your Honours, this is the centre of Prijedor where all the

 5    government buildings are, which I showed you on that map also.  And in the

 6    middle of your screens, you see Prijedor hotel right on River Sana.  Your

 7    Honours, now we are heading towards west of Prijedor to the Brdo region.

 8    Six villages located there, Biscani, Rizvanovici, Rakovcani, Hambarine,

 9    Brisevo --   oh sorry, Carakovo, not south direction.  Now we are in

10    Biscani.  There's a lot of construction going on these days when we made

11    this film.  This Your Honours is still Biscani.  You will see a small

12    white-coloured clear mine.  This clear mine, as you can see it at the

13    right hand middle of your screens is located very close to a square called

14    Mrkalj square, and I think this will figure quite frequently during -- I

15    was even trying to point from the helicopter.  This, Your Honours, is the

16    hamlet, Hegici, also located in Biscani and will be referred to during

17    these proceedings.

18            Your Honours, we are now heading to Rizvanovici.  This is the

19    village of Rizvanovici, located within kilometres of Biscani.  Prijedor

20    city in the distance, and fish pond also in the distance.  Your Honours,

21    this is Rakovcani, also located -- in fact very, very close to

22    Rizvanovici.  Now we are still in Rakovcani.  Now, Your Honours, we are

23    coming to Hambarine Polje, part of Hambarine village.

24            This, Your Honours, is Hambarine village, the big building in the

25    centre of the screen is the community centre.  Hambarine, I believe, is

Page 3533

 1    probably one of the biggest villages in the Brdo region.  And this, Your

 2    Honours, we are overflying Carakovo, the fifth village, located very close

 3    to Sana, Sana River, I mean.  This is a community centre you see at the

 4    middle of your screens.  It is also a new cemetery.  And Your Honours,

 5    River Sana and the thing I want to show you here is the bridge called the

 6    Zege Bridge, and we will be focussing on it now.  This place will also be

 7    mentioned when witnesses talk about Carakovo.  This is the bridge.

 8            From here, Your Honours, we will be going to Ljubija.  This is the

 9    Ljubija football ground.  This, Your Honours, is an area where we exhumed

10    mass graves.  We won't be able to see the exact place there because

11    helicopters couldn't fly over certain areas.  This, Your Honours, is

12    Brisevo, overwhelmingly Catholic village completely destroyed, and a lot

13    of people killed in July of 1992.

14            The last thing you will see, I think we are about to finish now,

15    is the Catholic church was built in 1990, a newly-built Catholic church in

16    the distance there.  One of the maps shows the photograph gives the

17    impression that the church is still intact.  The photograph was taken from

18    the front of it.  That's why.  If you look at this aerial image, it shows

19    that it's destroyed.  There is no roof.  That's it.

20            MR. KOUMJIAN:

21       Q.   Mr. Inayat, you indicated at one point a map --

22            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

23            MR. KOUMJIAN:  Thank you.

24       Q.   Mr. Inayat, you indicated at one point a location where bodies had

25    been exhumed, an exhumation site.  What is the name of that site?

Page 3534

 1       A.   In fact, there are two locations there.  The first one is called

 2    Redak, in a small area called Kipe.  That site was exhumed in, I believe,

 3    1999.  And then the second site was exhumed last year, also very close to

 4    the first one in the Ljubija area, and the site is called Jakerina Kos.

 5    Those were the two sites exhumed by us.

 6       Q.   I think at one point you were indicating that this was an area

 7    where a helicopter could not fly over.  Was that Jakerina Kos?

 8       A.   No, that was Redak Kipe.  And Jakerina Kos is about 2 kilometres

 9    further down the road.  But there is a map I know, that you are using,

10    where I've indicated the exact locations of these two mass graves.

11       Q.   Thank you.

12            MR. KOUMJIAN:  Your Honour, I don't have any more questions of the

13    witness.  But the exhibits referred to in Exhibits Number 54 and 55 are in

14    binders.  I'm wondering if we could mark those at this point,

15    indicating -- I realise the Defence hasn't had time to make any objections

16    regarding them.  I don't know if Your Honour prefers to mark them now or

17    at a later point.

18            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  I think it's worthwhile marking, and then let's

19    wait and see whether or not there are objections.

20            Could the registry please start with the new exhibit numbers.

21            THE REGISTRAR:  So we are talking about these two right now?

22            MR. KOUMJIAN:  Yes.

23            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Starting with 99.

24            MR. KOUMJIAN:  Starting with each 65 ter number.

25            THE REGISTRAR:  So number 99 will be S59. 158 will be S60. 172 is

Page 3535

 1    S61.

 2            MR. KOUMJIAN:  Most of these, Your Honours, do have a B/C/S

 3    translation, or an English translation and a B/C/S original.  So can we

 4    assume that for each of these the English is A and the B/C/S is B?

 5            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Yes.  But let's be careful and do it piece by

 6    piece that we really have everything together.

 7            MR. KOUMJIAN:  So on 99, the English would be S59A,and the B/C/S

 8    S59B.  Is that correct?

 9            THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, this is correct.

10            Proceed?  So we have S60A and S60B.  S61A and S61B.  65 ter number

11    201 will be S62A and S62B.  Number 204 will be S63A and S63B. Number 207

12     --

13            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Please not so fast that I can follow whether we

14    have both English and B/C/S version.  Is it correct, the former 204,

15    B/C/S, there is no better copy available?

16            MR. KOUMJIAN:  We can try to see if there's a better copy

17    available.  May we leave this for now, and we will try to see if our

18    original is any better.

19            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Right.  207.

20            THE REGISTRAR:  Number 207 will be S64A and S64B.  Number 208 will

21    be S65A and S65B.  Number 212 will be S66A and S66B.  Number 218 will be

22    S67A, S67B.  Number 219 will be S68A and S68B.  Number 224 will be S69A

23    and S69B.  Number 225 will be S70A and S70B.  Number 226 will be S71A and

24    S71B.  Number 227 will be S72A and S72B.  Number 228 will be S73A and

25    S73B.  Number 229 will be S74A and S74B.

Page 3536

 1            Number 230 will be S75A and S75B.  Number 237 will be S76A and

 2    S76B.  Number 246 will be S77A and S77B.  Number 247 will be S78A and

 3    S78B.  Number 248 will be S79A and S79B.  Number 253 will be S80A and

 4    S80B.  Number 257 will be S81A and S81B.  Number 267 will be S82A and

 5    S82B.  Number 268 -- sorry.

 6            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  267.

 7            MR. KOUMJIAN:  I think there's a problem with 267.  I see, Your

 8    Honours.  Only one page B/C/S.  I see.  I see, I'm sorry.  It does have.

 9    All three pages are translated.

10            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, Your Honour, please.

11            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Announcement and decision.

12            MR. KOUMJIAN:  Correct.

13            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  All together.  Okay.

14            THE REGISTRAR:  So number 268 will be S83A and S83B.

15            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Stop.  What should go as 83A, I can understand

16    in English.  But then we have numerous pages in B/C/S.

17            MR. KOUMJIAN:  Can we check for a moment.  I think this may

18    already be admitted, this exhibit.  I'm double checking that.

19            No.  Apparently it's a different interview.

20            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  But shall we please do with all the B/C/S pages?

21            MR. KOUMJIAN:  Well, I think the reason there are multiple pages

22    is in order to get all of the newspaper in.  Each one, it's the same page

23    but photographed several different times, so to have the entire article

24    photocopied, apparently they put the newspaper in different positions.

25            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Okay.  Please continue.

Page 3537

 1            THE REGISTRAR:  Number 278 will become S84A and S84B.  Number 279

 2    will become --

 3            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Stop once again.  Here I have one page in

 4    English, and two pages in B/C/S.

 5            MR. KOUMJIAN:  The second page in B/C/S, apparently the

 6    translation is not included at the moment.  We could check on that.

 7            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  So for the record, the B/C/S with register

 8    number 00633806 is still open.

 9            MR. KOUMJIAN:  Correct.  We're checking to see if there's a

10    translation of that page.

11            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Then proceed to 279.

12            MR. KOUMJIAN:  Actually, if I could suggest, to make it easier, we

13    take out the second page.  It's also a separate decision, so it probably

14    should be given a different number in any case.  And we can decide on

15    whether we want to admit that as a separate exhibit later.

16            THE REGISTRAR:  Number 279 becomes S85A and S85B.  Number 299

17    becomes S86A and S86B.  Number 303 becomes S87A and S87B.  Number 305

18    becomes S88A and S88B.  Number 306 becomes S89A and S89B.  Number 365

19    becomes S90A and S90B.  Number 440 becomes S91A and S91B.  Number --

20            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Wait a minute.  It's the wrong one.  455.

21            THE REGISTRAR:  Number 455 becomes S92A and S92B.

22            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Shall we continue with list 3 immediately?

23            MR. KOUMJIAN:  Yes, Your Honour.

24            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Thank you.

25            THE REGISTRAR:  Number 21 becomes S93A and S93B.  Number 25

Page 3538

 1    becomes S94A and S94B.  Number 42 becomes S95A and S95B.  Number 69

 2    becomes S96A and S96B.

 3            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  What's wrong here?  We have two English pages.

 4            MR. KOUMJIAN:  That's correct.  The only thing on the last page is

 5    a stamp regarding how it was obtained.

 6            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  I have the impression we have two English

 7    translations.

 8            MR. KOUMJIAN:  And we have two different decisions, I believe.

 9    Maybe not.

10            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Okay.

11            MR. KOUMJIAN:  Yes.

12            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Could the English page be explained, please,

13    after 96B.  To which document does this belong?

14            MR. KOUMJIAN:  I believe what happened in this case, which happens

15    sometimes, is that the same document was received, IFFed and ERNed twice

16    and translated twice.  It's the same decision.  It may have been obtained

17    from two different sources.  We would ask that just one remain, the first

18    remain, and both of the English and the B/C/S, and the second be removed.

19    So the original B/C/S would be P0038529.  And the other page, we can

20    remove.

21            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  I'm hesitant whether we can really remove.  I

22    don't know what the content, but evidently, there are different stamps on

23    it.  And I don't know whatever will be the meaning at the end of the day.

24    And therefore, I believe we should have it as it is.  My only question was

25    what about the following English page 00389096A?

Page 3539

 1            MR. KOUMJIAN:  Yes, that is a certification as to how it was

 2    received.  And perhaps we may give that a different letter other than A

 3    and B.  Actually, it should be part of B, because that's the certification

 4    how the original, B, was received.  That's probably the back of the

 5    original stamp that was placed on the back.

 6            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Okay.  76.

 7            THE REGISTRAR:  Number 76 becomes S97A and S97B.  Number 77

 8    becomes S98A and S98B.

 9            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Sorry.  But I can't see any 77.

10            MR. KOUMJIAN:  That actually is already admitted, and so we should

11    not give it a number.  I'm sorry, that should not have been on the chart.

12            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Then we may proceed with 79.

13            THE REGISTRAR:  Number 79 becomes S98A and S98B.  Number 81

14    becomes S99A and S99B.

15            Number 83 becomes S100A and S100B.  Number 84 becomes S101A and

16    S101B.

17            MR. KOUMJIAN:  Next on the chart is already admitted also, so we

18    will not have the 65 ter in the binder.  So that should be skipped, number

19    87.

20            THE REGISTRAR:  Number 120 becomes S102A and S102B.  Number 133

21    becomes S103A and S103B.  Number 139 becomes S104A and S104B.  Number

22    140 becomes S105A and S105B.

23            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Here, we once again have two B/C/S versions.

24    Correct?  Or even three or more?  Could you please have a look what's

25    about 105B.

Page 3540

 1            MR. KOUMJIAN:  I notice that the three B/C/S, each has a different

 2    ERN number, although they are sequential.  So I'm confused about it, but

 3    apparently they were seized as three different original papers.  Each page

 4    was ERNed separately, but it's the same document, so there's one English

 5    translation.

 6            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  So for the record, and for the list, we should

 7    clarify that Exhibit Number 105B consists of four documents.

 8            MR. KOUMJIAN:  Yes.  And actually, looking at the signature, it is

 9    three different documents.

10            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Please proceed.  171.

11            THE REGISTRAR:  Number 171 becomes S106A and S106B.  Number 200

12    becomes S107A and S107B.

13            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Before we turn to 220, I don't believe that this

14    can be the translation of what we can find in B/C/S.  Or is it the

15    intention only to admit into evidence, or to tender, to be correct, now

16    number 97 on the B/C/S version, and to exclude the rest of the page?

17            MR. KOUMJIAN:  I'm sorry, I'm confused by number 97.  We're

18    talking about 65 ter number 200?

19            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  220.

20            MR. KOUMJIAN:  Yes.  The only -- we're only talking about decision

21    number 97.  This, I believe, is a page out of the gazette.  I'm not sure

22    about that, but we're only tendering number 97 which is translated, for

23    this exhibit.

24            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Okay.

25            THE REGISTRAR:  Number 220 as described becomes S108A and S108B.

Page 3541

 1    Number 222 becomes S109A and S109B.

 2            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  This seems to be a little bit confusing.  I have

 3    numerous documents under 222.

 4            MR. KOUMJIAN:  It's numerous decisions.  It's one copy of one

 5    issue, issue number 2, for the gazette of the Autonomous Region of

 6    Krajina, 1992.  So the gazette lists numerous decisions, but the gazette

 7    was seized as one document, one publication.

 8            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  So is it correct to state that the document 109A

 9    includes 50 pages?

10            MR. KOUMJIAN:  Yes.  That's correct.  That's exactly correct,

11    running sequentially in ERN number 00497838 to 7860.

12            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  261.

13            THE REGISTRAR:  Number 261 becomes S110A and S110B.  Number 262

14    becomes S111A and S111B.

15            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Once again, it's the same problem.  It's only 55

16    on 111B?

17            MR. KOUMJIAN:  Correct.

18            THE REGISTRAR:  Number 263 becomes S112A and S112B.

19            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  The same will be true with 264, it's only 97?

20            MR. KOUMJIAN:  Yes, Mr. President.

21            THE REGISTRAR:  Number 264 becomes S113A and S113B.  Number 276

22    becomes S114A and S114B.  Number 289 becomes S115A and S115B.  Number

23    298 becomes S116A and S116B.  Number 305 becomes S117A and S117B.

24            JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I can't see 305.

25            MR. KOUMJIAN:  Apparently, it didn't make it into the binder, and

Page 3542

 1    perhaps we will not mark it.  We'll bring it down Monday, if we use it.

 2            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  So please, may it be skipped from the registry.

 3    And we conclude by S116A and B.

 4            MR. KOUMJIAN:  Your Honour, Mr. President, just one other matter

 5    on this.  List number 1, Your Honour pointed out that there were a couple

 6    of items listed as admitted that were not.  We have corrected that.  It

 7    has been corrected by Ms. Karper during the testimony of Mr. Inayat, and

 8    we could substitute, Your Honour, if it's agreeable to all parties, a

 9    corrected list.

10            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  That's fine, we appreciate.

11            MR. KOUMJIAN:  S53.  I can hand out a corrected S53.

12            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Thank you.

13            Any other technical problems?

14            MR. KOUMJIAN:  I would move the video into evidence if it has not

15    yet been actually admitted into evidence.

16            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  I think it has been.  It has a number already.

17    And I would say it's only fair to give the Defence the opportunity to

18    object until, say, Tuesday.

19            MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  That would be great.  Thank

20    you very much.

21            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  So then it's appropriate to have a break until

22    5.45.

23                          --- Recess taken at 5.23 p.m.

24                          --- On resuming at 5.45 p.m.

25            MR. KOUMJIAN:  Your Honour, for the record, the Prosecution is

Page 3543












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13   English transcripts.













Page 3544

 1    assisted now also by Lise-Lotte Karlsson.

 2            We have no further questions.  The witness is available.  But if

 3    the Defence wanted to indicate their preference, which I have no objection

 4    to.

 5            MR. OSTOJIC:  We will proceed in any way the Court wants us to. We

 6    can either ask a couple questions.  We, however, having just received some

 7    of these, although previously obviously they were presented to us, would

 8    like some time to go into detail with each of the exhibits with the

 9    witness.  We are prepared to go forward for about a half hour, otherwise

10    we would reserve our right to continue to ask this witness some other

11    questions based upon his testimony and obviously his duties here at the

12    OTP.

13            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  I understand that you intend to proceed with

14    some general questions during the next half hour, and then later on,

15    having had a view on all the documents, cross-examination also related to

16    some documents?

17            MR. OSTOJIC:  That's fair, if that's the way the Court wants me to

18    proceed --

19            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Okay.  Then let's proceed this way.

20            May the witness be brought in once again.

21                          Cross-examined by Mr. Ostojic:

22            MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23       Q.   Mr. Inayat, my name is John Ostojic, and I'm here with Mr. Branko

24    Lukic and we represent the accused Milomir Stakic in this case.  Good

25    evening or good afternoon.  I'm going to ask you a couple questions today

Page 3545

 1    with some guidelines the Court has provided us.  I may be asking you some

 2    questions in the future when you testify again in connection with other

 3    documents related to these you've presented to us today.  So bear with me

 4    please.  Sir, just briefly, can you tell us what your educational

 5    background is.

 6       A.   In 1980, I finished my -- graduated from the University of

 7    Islamabad in Pakistan with a master's degree in International Relations.

 8    And in 1988, I was selected on a British Consul scholarship and I attended

 9    Exeter University for a year and a half, and I did my masters in Police

10    Studies.

11       Q.   I'm sorry, I didn't catch the name of the university.

12       A.   Exeter university is about 200 kilometres southwest of London.

13       Q.   Thank you.  A couple general questions, in connection with some of

14    the testimony you gave today.  I note on page 13, line 21 through 25 of

15    today's transcript, and proceeding on page 14, line 1 and might be just

16    me, but you initially stated that there were six locations during the

17    second search that were performed.  And I was able only to write down

18    five.  So maybe if I list them and then you can tell me which one is

19    missing.  Or if you'd like to list them, I'll do whichever you'd like.

20    Were there six locations or five that you actually searched?

21       A.   In fact, there were six locations.  And the map that I was using

22    today perhaps an older version.  And on that map, I couldn't find the

23    sixth location which I'm certain I had pointed out.  I can repeat those

24    locations once again.  It was the Prijedor medical hospital.  It was the

25    health centre in Prijedor.  The Ljubija mines headquarter offices in

Page 3546

 1    Prijedor.  The Omarska administrative offices, located adjacent to the

 2    Omarska detention camp.  Then there was this police station in Prijedor.

 3    And I have to admit that the sixth location, I just can't recall it.  And

 4    I am certain it was six locations, and I can give you those later on.

 5       Q.   That's fine.  I just wasn't sure if it was my notes.  It was not

 6    two police stations --

 7       A.   Yes, thank you for reminding me.  Omarska police station.  So we

 8    went to two police stations, one in Prijedor and the second one in

 9    Omarska.

10       Q.   Thank you.  On December 1997, I believe you said was the

11    approximate time in which you became team leader of team 1, and that was

12    the time that you received a legal and lawful warrant to do a search and

13    seizure of four locations in the area that we've commonly referred to as

14    the Prijedor municipality.  Correct?

15       A.   That is correct.

16       Q.   And approximately three years later, October 27th through the

17    29th, the year 2000, you mentioned that you went on a second search

18    mission or search and seizure mission, but this time, and I'm paraphrasing

19    your testimony, I apologise for doing so, but you correct me if I am

20    wrong, this time you mentioned that "there was no search warrant," but

21    there was an OTP directive.  And I'm paraphrasing.  Is that accurate or

22    close to what you said earlier this afternoon?

23       A.   The directive that I was referring to issued by the Prosecutor

24    under, I believe, Rule 39.  So it was a directive issued by the Prosecutor

25    allowing us to search locations in Prijedor.

Page 3547

 1       Q.   Why wasn't, if you know, a warrant issued in October of 2000 as it

 2    was in December of 1997 to do a search and seizure in the area commonly

 3    referred to as the Prijedor municipality?

 4       A.   Before going on this search mission in October 2000, we had

 5    requested Judge Rodrigues who was the president of the Trial Chamber

 6    trying Kvocka et al, and we had requested a motion a search warrant be

 7    issued.  But Judge Rodrigues and the Trial Chamber, I believe, dismissed

 8    that motion, did not allow it, because the team I am representing was not

 9    only trying Kvocka, we are trying the Stakic case and other issues in

10    Prijedor.  So we still wanted the search to be conducted.  So we went to

11    the Prosecutor, and which, as I said, allows her to issue a directive and

12    which we used for these searches.

13       Q.   During the first search prior to going to Prijedor -- strike that.

14    Let me just finish on this thought.  I apologise.  Can you distinguish

15    which records were obtained through the search and seizure from the 2000

16    search and seizure versus the December 1997 search and seizure?

17       A.   Let me first go to the 12th of December 1997 search and seizure

18    mission.  During that mission, which was conducted in one day, we started

19    in the morning around about 9.00, and we finished our searches

20    approximately, I would say, 7.00 in the evening at the Prijedor police

21    station, at the municipal building, assembly building, at the SDS offices,

22    and at the Radio Prijedor -- radio station Prijedor offices.  So of

23    course, at those four locations, we sought and we seized a lot of material

24    with a limited staff that was available to us to do the searches. It was

25    not possible to sift through material and make a selection there.  So

Page 3548

 1    obviously, we selected a very large collection which was later properly

 2    reviewed when it was brought to the Tribunal.

 3            But as far as the second search mission is concerned, from October

 4    2000, we went with a limited objective.  We went with the decision that we

 5    will review the material even if it take three days, that is why the

 6    searches were allowed to be conducted from the 27th to 29th.  And at the

 7    six locations, we recovered -- I have the exact numbers of documents, but

 8    we recovered really a very limited number of documents.  So that's the

 9    difference between the two searches.

10       Q.   Can you tell us, since it's relatively easy, if it's not too

11    difficult, can you tell us how many you recovered in December 1997,

12    documents, and how many you recovered in October of 2000?

13       A.   I would be only guessing.  But I have the -- exact numbers

14    available to me.  If only I'd known, because I had the impression that you

15    wouldn't be cross-examining today, otherwise I could have brought those

16    numbers.  I can tell you that in the first seizure, that happened in

17    December 1997, but please take it as an estimate, that it was probably a

18    hundred thousand pages.  I would say about 40.000 documents from all the

19    four locations.  But when it comes to the October search mission, I think

20    not more than 3 to 400 documents, maybe consisting of 5.000 pages.

21       Q.   I understand totally that it's an estimate, sir, and we're not

22    going to hold you to those numbers at any time until we have an

23    opportunity to have you do a little further research and refresh your

24    recollection on that.  And so I just want -- just to clarify, in December

25    of 1997, is it true that the only location that you yourself personally

Page 3549

 1    did a search and seizure was in the municipal building, the municipality

 2    municipal building.  Correct?

 3       A.   That is correct.

 4       Q.   You did not go into the SUP building or the SDS building or the

 5    radio station, Kozarski Vjesnik, correct?

 6       A.   I did not go to the radio station and Kozarski Vjesnik offices,

 7    and I did not go to the SDS offices.  However, after concluding the

 8    searches at the municipal building, probably by 5.00, I would imagine, I

 9    was then asked to report to the police station from where, in fact, for

10    the record -- for record purposes, let me point out the largest collection

11    was seized.  I was asked to come and assist the search team there.  So I

12    spent about two hours with the search party at the police station in the

13    evening.

14       Q.   In your computer data, would you be able to, by clicking certain

15    search bases or data information, would you be able to inventory how many

16    documents came from the radio station and Kozarski Vjesnik?

17       A.   Oh yes, certainly, yes.

18       Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  I'll be following up on that, if I may.  Did

19    you, during your December 1997 search and seizure, did you obtain the

20    original documents from all four of these locations that you've

21    identified?

22       A.   Whatever was seized from these four locations was, in fact, lying

23    around there.  So those, I believe, were originals.  We did not ask them

24    to provide us copies with what we had seized.  We just picked up material

25    that we thought was relevant.  So I imagine that that is original.

Page 3550

 1       Q.   And do you still have, or does the OTP still maintain, those

 2    original documents from those four locations during your search and

 3    seizure of December 1997?

 4       A.   That is correct.

 5       Q.   And all those documents have been scanned.  Correct, to the best

 6    of your knowledge?

 7       A.   No.  I'm quite certain that the documentation seized from Prijedor

 8    in 1997 is all in the system, yes, scanned.

 9       Q.   Now, can you tell us if one of the reasons or if you know that the

10    OTP wanted to seize documents from the radio station, Kozarski Vjesnik, in

11    December 1997 was because they wanted to determine what the propaganda was

12    from the people in the territory of Prijedor municipality?

13            MR. KOUMJIAN:  I object, relevance, what the purpose of the OTP

14    was.

15            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Would you explain.

16            MR. OSTOJIC:  Well, I'm truly leading up to a point, and it's not

17    as if I'm hiding it, if I may explain and elaborate a little bit.  If the

18    OTP has seized all the documents from the radio station, and if they are

19    using a selective group of those documents to show propaganda that may or

20    was instituted by various Serbs during that time period, it is difficult

21    for the Defence to go to the radio station and to Kozarski Vjesnik and

22    find any documents since we believe, respectfully, all the documents were

23    taken away.  So to give this Trial Chamber the proper perspective or at

24    least our perspective, we would think that the Kozarski Vjesnik would also

25    show possibly propaganda that has been issued by the SDA, HDZ, and other

Page 3551

 1    political parties we have discussed here.  To date, we have been unable to

 2    because they continuously tell us no such information is available. That's

 3    all been taken away.  So that's the purpose for it.  And it's not meant to

 4    obtain any confidential information from him, because I think the witness

 5    has established that they actually do have the documents, original or in

 6    copy form, and still maintain those documents.

 7            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  I think the witness has already stated that

 8    these documents are in the possession of the OTP, and I don't know -- I

 9    can't identify the sense of an additional question when it's to find out

10    what is still in the possession of the OTP and to have access, this is a

11    different question.

12            MR. OSTOJIC:  If I may proceed, Your Honour.

13       Q.   With respect to the SDS documents that were seized in December of

14    1997, can you tell us if the documents -- strike that.  Can you also

15    describe for us, not at this time, but the specific documents that were

16    seized during your search and seizure of December of 1997?

17       A.   Are you talking of the quantity of documents seized from SDS

18    offices?

19       Q.   Forgive me for interrupting.  I know you said approximately

20    40.000.  And we said we're not holding you to that number.  All I'm asking

21    is:  Is there a mechanism within a 10 or 20 minute period, or you tell me

22    whatever period it is, to punch in a code, a search request, and say here

23    are all the documents we received from the December 1997 search and

24    seizure from SDS headquarters or SDS building?

25       A.   Yes, that is possible.

Page 3552

 1       Q.   How long would it take you to do that for each one of these four

 2    locations that you searched on December 1997?

 3            THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel and witness please slow down

 4    and make pauses between question and answer.

 5       A.   Can you please repeat the question.

 6            MR. OSTOJIC:

 7       Q.   How long would it take you to -- if someone were to ask you,

 8    please give me an index of all the documents that were obtained from the

 9    December 1997 search and seizure, an index, how long would it take you to

10    say or to find the information that indeed from the municipality,

11    municipal building, we got X amount of documents, and from the SUP, we got

12    Y amount, et cetera?

13       A.   First of all, the document collection that was seized in December

14    1997, for records, let me point out, the largest collection came from the

15    police station.  Second, municipal building.  Third, SDS offices.  Fourth,

16    Kozarski Vjesnik and radio station.  Now, if this Chamber asks me to

17    provide an index, I would imagine it should not take me more than three to

18    four days.  But if the urgency was that it should be done quicker than

19    that, then I think I can go to the ISU section within the OTP and put in a

20    request and maybe they can do it in a day's time.  But if you were to ask

21    me to do it, I would imagine it would take me three to four days because

22    that's not the only thing I'm doing.  I have to really juggle in between

23    the times I can spend on different projects.

24       Q.   I appreciate that.  What does IU [sic] stand for?

25       A.   The information systems unit.

Page 3553

 1       Q.   And the same question with respect to the items, although less in

 2    amount, I think you said approximately, although we're not holding you to

 3    these numbers, 3 to 400 documents, approximately 5.000 pages, the same can

 4    be provided by either yourself or the IU unit --

 5       A.   ISU unit.

 6       Q.   With respect to those six locations from the search and seizure in

 7    October of 2000, correct?

 8       A.   I think as far as the second search mission is concerned, that can

 9    be done by me and much quicker because of the limited number of documents

10    that were seized.

11       Q.   Okay.  Let me now turn to the first search and seizure that you

12    did.  Were you assisted by any personnel other than the OTP and team

13    members during this first search and seizure?  And what I'm looking for,

14    if I may ask a leading question or specific on this just for the purposes

15    of expediting it, December 1997, were you assisted by any members of the

16    Republic of Bosnia or the AID group, or unit referred to as AID?

17       A.   No.

18       Q.   During the second search and seizure, were you assisted at any

19    time by any other entity other than the personnel working for the OTP

20    through the ICTY?

21       A.   Again, if you're referring to the federation forces, no.  But RS

22    forces, they helped us.

23       Q.   Is it your testimony that the federation forces did not help you

24    in either December 1997 or October 27th through the 29th, 2000.  Correct?

25       A.   I think that's correct, yes.

Page 3554












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Page 3555

 1       Q.   Let me ask you if I may, to turn to a different subject quickly,

 2    and we may get to it at a later time, you discussed the interview process

 3    that is conducted with the witnesses.  And just trying to focus you on

 4    that issue if I may.  On page 37, line 21 of your testimony earlier today,

 5    one of the procedures for taking a statement from the witness is I believe

 6    you said at that page number and line, again, page 37, line 21, said that

 7    we would ask the witnesses to give "brief answers."  Again, Mr. Inayat, I

 8    just don't want to represent that's what you said.  I believe you did, but

 9    if you didn't, clarify it for the record.  That's my notes and my

10    recollection on that.

11       A.   Maybe I did not phrase it properly.  What I meant was that

12    sometimes when you put a question to a witness, the witness tends to give

13    very lengthy response, which is very difficult for the translator, the

14    interpreter working on the interview, to keep in mind.  So with that in

15    mind, I said that normally we tell our witnesses if they have lengthy

16    responses they need to break that information up into smaller pieces.  I

17    didn't mean that they shall give a summary of the question, summarised

18    response.

19       Q.   Then at another portion of your testimony, I think you said we

20    would take down their statements verbatim and actually then I think you

21    corrected the verbatim and said we would take down verbatim what the

22    interpreter would say.  Correct?

23       A.   Precisely.  Because I don't understand the B/C/S language, so I

24    have to rely on the --

25       Q.   Fair.  And the answers are as good as the interpreters are.  Would

Page 3556

 1    that be something you would agree with me on?

 2       A.   As a non-B/C/S speaker, we have to rely on what the interpreters

 3    are telling us.

 4       Q.   Were you doing the questioning of the witnesses?

 5       A.   Invariably.  The interpreters are not supposed to put questions.

 6       Q.   I'm not suggesting that they did.  I apologise if that was the

 7    inference.  Did you have a prepared questionnaire that you would ask each

 8    and every different witness that you would interview from time to time?

 9       A.   I don't recall ever using a questionnaire, a written questionnaire

10    for interviewing witnesses.  I've used a questionnaire for interviewing

11    accused, but never witnesses.  That has, at least, not been my way of

12    practice.

13       Q.   Do you know if other investigators or persons on your team who

14    have taken statements from witnesses, whether or not they have used

15    prepared questionnaires or questions to certain witnesses?

16       A.   I don't think so.  There were several investigators working in my

17    team and this thing has never come up where investigators have indicated

18    that they are using questionnaires for interviews.

19       Q.   How do you, as an investigator, know what to ask each and every

20    witness?  First, if you could describe for us how do you know that the

21    witness will be relevant to either this case or any other case in the

22    ICTY?

23       A.   Well, we have access to a large commission of expert report which

24    was put together in 1993 and 1994.  And the commission of experts

25    appointed by the United Nations.  They requested several governments in

Page 3557

 1    Europe and in Asia to interview refugees living in their countries, and

 2    those interviews were done by police officers in those respective

 3    countries.  So that was a starting point for us, for our investigations.

 4    For example, for Prijedor, I know, again, I don't want to give an exact

 5    figure, but I know hundreds of witnesses were interviewed by policemen in

 6    Scandinavia and Germany and Holland as part of the commission of experts

 7    report.  So that was a starting point.  That's how we found out our main

 8    witnesses.

 9       Q.   Of all the witnesses that you've interviewed, on how many

10    occasions -- or that you know, witness statements in connection with the

11    Prijedor municipality, since becoming a team leader on December of 1997,

12    how many occasions did you find that the Prosecutor would be either

13    present, and if you could distinguish when he isn't, or when the

14    Prosecutor was actually asking questions of the witnesses?

15       A.   When you say Prosecutor, you mean the trial attorneys working on

16    the team?

17       Q.   Correct.

18       A.   Okay.  In most of the interviews that I personally have done, and

19    it's difficult for me to give an exact number, I would say something like

20    70 to 80, I have conducted the interviews on my own.  But as we are

21    getting closer to trial, there have been occasions when trial attorneys

22    working on this case have accompanied investigators, and I don't know if

23    you asked me this also, whether the questioning is done by trial

24    attorneys.  In the interviews that I have conducted, I can say that

25    invariably, I have put the questions.  There must have been rare occasions

Page 3558

 1    when trial attorney present in the room may have asked me to ask

 2    additional questions just to clarify things.  But as investigator, I have

 3    put those questions.

 4       Q.   Are you as an investigator, you don't have any mandate to get

 5    information from a witness which would be in favour of or against any

 6    individual accused.  Correct?

 7       A.   I'm sorry, I didn't follow the question.

 8       Q.   You as an investigator, are you an independent person who merely

 9    seeks to obtain information from either a victim, or someone related to

10    the victim, in connection with events that may have occurred in a certain

11    area?  You're not someone who is attempting to obtain information only in

12    favour of one side against the other, are you?

13       A.   To be honest, I don't know if I really followed what you're

14    saying.  But there have been occasions when I have sought witnesses out,

15    and there have been occasions when witnesses have given me information

16    that tends to be in favour of the accused.  And that has been written

17    down, which probably is called Rule 68.  And that has been identified.

18       Q.   I'm not denying that.  Please don't read too much into my

19    questioning, although I understand that it's late.  Do you know how many

20    items or were you involved -- strike that.  Sir, were you involved at all

21    in compiling the Rule 68, otherwise known as exculpatory materials, for

22    this case that we're here on behalf of Dr. Stakic?

23       A.   I personally have not been involved, but the taskings have come

24    from me to the investigators that that has to be done.

25       Q.   Did you verify, being the person that was actually involved in the

Page 3559

 1    search and seizures both in December of 1997 and October of 2000, did you

 2    go back and verify from the materials that you received and said:  "Yes,

 3    I'm confident as the team leader this is all the 68 exculpatory materials

 4    that we have in our possession in connection with any of the issues

 5    relating to Dr. Stakic?"

 6       A.   I don't think that's part of my job description.

 7       Q.   Did you do it or didn't you do it?

 8       A.   I didn't do it.

 9       Q.   Did anyone from your team -- I apologise.  I keep forgetting that

10    we are getting it translated in three different languages.  My apologies

11    to the interpreters and to the Court and to the witness.  Did you, sir,

12    first tell me how many members are in your team if you can.  I don't know

13    what's confidential or not.  To the extent -- I'd rather have you err on

14    the side of telling me it's confidential, than saying something that we

15    would have an issue with later.  Can you tell me how many members are on

16    your team?

17       A.   I don't think there's a problem telling that.

18       Q.   I don't either.

19       A.   You see, it can vary from time to time.  When I joined the team,

20    there was two investigators.  There have been in the year 2000, even 2001

21    when we had nine investigators, now we are back to seven.  So it varies

22    from time to time.

23       Q.   When you say your team, sir, does that include any of the

24    attorneys who would be participating in any of the trials before this

25    Tribunal and these Chambers here?

Page 3560

 1       A.   No.  Although trial attorneys are assigned to certain teams, but

 2    they come under directly the senior trial attorneys and not the team

 3    leader.

 4       Q.   Is Dominic Smyth in your team?

 5       A.   He used to be in team one at a certain point.

 6       Q.   What time did he -- if I'm allowed to ask, or if not I'll withdraw

 7    the question.

 8            MR. KOUMJIAN:  My objection is just relevance.  I think we're

 9    getting pretty far afield.

10            MR. OSTOJIC:  I'll precede, if I may, on a different point.

11            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Please.

12            MR. OSTOJIC:  I'll come back to that later.

13       Q.   Can you tell us who of your team members made the decision as to

14    which documents constitutes exculpatory materials pursuant to Rule 68?

15            MR. KOUMJIAN:  I would object that this is beyond the scope of

16    direct examination.  This is not the witness that conducted Rule 68

17    searches.  I don't think that's the subject of his testimony.  If there is

18    a hearing regarding whether the Prosecutor's office in this case has

19    complied with the Rule 68, it would make sense to have the witnesses, who

20    were actually involved in that, testify.  It's beyond the scope of his

21    direct examination.

22            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  I disagree.  I think the leader of a team should

23    know about this.  Therefore, please proceed.

24            MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you.

25       Q.   Mr. Inayat, can you answer that for us, do you know who they were?

Page 3561

 1       A.   Can you, once again, just repeat the question.

 2       Q.   Who were the members of your team who compiled the exculpatory

 3    materials that were given in the Dr. Stakic case, pursuant to Rule 68?

 4       A.   The day-to-day administrative working of the investigation side is

 5    conducted by an investigator called Sue Ellen Taylor.  I have to refer

 6    this question to her to find out the exact answer.

 7       Q.   Prior to conducting interviews with witnesses, do any of your team

 8    members, including yourself, meet with the Prosecutor?

 9       A.   With the trial attorneys within the team, you mean?

10       Q.   Yes, I'm sorry.  Specifically that.  But I hesitate because the

11    trial attorneys change as do the team members, as do -- does a lot of

12    different functions so.  The trial attorneys at that time, I would, I

13    guess...

14       A.   Yeah.  Most of the time, when the missions are planned, the team

15    leader makes out a list of people that have to be interviewed during a

16    mission.  And under our OTP procedures, the senior trial attorneys have to

17    be made aware of any outgoing missions.  And just to make sure that the

18    senior trial attorney and the team leader are aware of this mission, there

19    is consultation about the mission plan.  The senior trial attorney in my

20    team, and in my experience, has never sat down with me to discuss what

21    evidence the witnesses will talk about or what the questioning is supposed

22    to be.  I'm personally not aware of any such development.

23       Q.   You, being the team leader of team one, do you help and assist the

24    other members of your team, whether two, nine, or seven in number, meaning

25    the size, do you give them an indication of the types of questions you're

Page 3562

 1    looking for or areas that you want to cover?

 2       A.   Most investigators that I've worked with have come into this

 3    Tribunal with 10 to 15 years of experience, sometimes maybe less.  But

 4    mainly 10 to 15 years of experience.  I've never felt the need to discuss

 5    the evidence of each and every witness.  However, whenever it comes to

 6    important witnesses, such as political leaders, such as police officers,

 7    such as people with a military background, either I have been involved in

 8    their interviews myself.  Or when the staff working under me, when they go

 9    on such missions, we have a discussion on these important witnesses.

10       Q.   Do you -- or did you, before interviewing certain witnesses,

11    review the indictment against the accused Dr. Stakic in this case?

12       A.   I'm personally not aware if I have interviewed any witnesses

13    specifically for Dr. Stakic's case.

14       Q.   Did you review his indictment at any time, of the various forms

15    that it took?  It's currently the fourth amended indictment I believe, but

16    I'm not limiting it to just the fourth amended indictment.

17       A.   Yes, I have reviewed it.  I've looked at it.  I've read it.

18       Q.   Do each of your team members look at it at any time?

19       A.   They are supposed to.  They are duty bound.

20       Q.   Why is that?  What's the duty telling them to review the

21    indictment prepared by the OTP in connection with the accused?

22       A.   To know the facts of the case.

23       Q.   The facts that are disputed or the facts that are undisputed?

24    Which do they look for?

25       A.   I don't know what to say on this.  But what I certainly know is

Page 3563

 1    that all investigators, they read the indictment and that they have the

 2    indictment just to be aware of what has been alleged.

 3       Q.   Let me ask you:  From having experience since 1980 with the police

 4    and your background and schooling and having worked here as a team leader

 5    since 1997, you don't take the indictment and accept the facts that the

 6    Prosecutor prepare in the indictment and say, "Yes, those facts are

 7    undisputed.  All we are going to do is go out and find the evidence."  In

 8    fact, you say "I just want to find out the truth.  Is this really true?"

 9    Or tell me how you do it?

10       A.   I totally agree with you.

11       Q.   Which one?

12       A.   I totally agree with you --

13            THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel and witness please make pauses

14    between question and answer.

15            MR. OSTOJIC:  I, again, apologise, Your Honour, to the

16    interpreters and to the Court and the witness.

17       Q.   Thank you.  Sorry.

18       A.   I totally agree with you that even though I've read the indictment

19    several times, and if I were to go and interview a witness, I wouldn't

20    stop him if he were to give me evidence which was inconsistent with the

21    indictment.  I would never stop him.  I will just take what the witness is

22    saying.

23       Q.   You don't have a legal degree, correct, sir?

24       A.   No, I don't.

25       Q.   I know you got a masters in international relations, and I respect

Page 3564

 1    that very much.  In your testimony on line -- I mean on page 42, page 14,

 2    you mentioned a word that I think has a legal -- or I'm going to ask you.

 3    When you said most people were deported from such and such an area, or

 4    deportation, are you telling us today that that's a legal opinion, or is

 5    that just a layman's way of describing something that perhaps you learned

 6    or gleaned from the statements, discussions with the Prosecutor, or any

 7    scenario you might want to envision?

 8       A.   When I talked of the railway station in Trnopolje which is, as I

 9    said, about 200 metres from Trnopolje camp, and having read witness

10    statements and also have interviewed some of them, most of them talk about

11    the deportations.  They said that they were deported from the camp by

12    train during the initial weeks of the camp.  And so I've picked up this

13    word basically from what witnesses have told me.

14       Q.   Speaking of those statements, you stated that you take down

15    statements or you try to, obviously with certain limitations.  And I, by

16    no means, mean to be disrespectful to you, but you take down statements,

17    verbatim answers, in essence, is what you said.  My question in connection

18    with that is why, if you know, why don't you have a tape recorder during

19    your interview process with the witnesses that you're taking statements

20    of?

21       A.   I know that in 1997, this thing was very seriously being

22    considered.  But I wasn't privy to the final discussions which were held

23    in which it was decided that that's not feasible.  So we just kept on with

24    the laptops and writing the statements down.

25       Q.   Who decided that?

Page 3565

 1       A.   I think you'll have to ask from the senior management in the OTP.

 2       Q.   You don't know.

 3       A.   No, I don't know.

 4       Q.   At any time, sir, as an investigator with the 22 years of

 5    experience that you have both in Pakistan and here at the ICTY, since 1980

 6    I believe you said, had you at any time given a thought to say, it would

 7    be fair and it would be neutral for everyone, including the Trial Chamber,

 8    to hear the questioner ask the questions and to hear the response being

 9    given by the witnesses?  And it would actually take away the method of

10    having you go through the process of typing down the statement, preparing

11    the statement, having the statement written down, and then translated.

12    Did you ever contemplate that?

13       A.   Personally, it may be what you're saying is right.  But as I said,

14    I wasn't privy to the consultations where they must have considered all

15    factors before deciding not to have these recorded interviews.

16            MR. OSTOJIC:  I know I'm running out of time.  If I may, just for

17    the record, and I know that we have an agreement on this, just reserve my

18    right.  And I want to thank Mr. Inayat for his answers today and for

19    staying as late as he did.  I appreciate it very much.  We have no further

20    questions at this time, Your Honour, with the understanding that I may

21    come back, but ever so limited, on some of these issues.  Thank you.

22            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Thank you.  Then the witness is excused for

23    today.  And probably we come back to you at a further point in time when

24    the Defence so wants.  It's, of course, for you to decide when it's

25    appropriate.

Page 3566












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13   English transcripts.













Page 3567

 1            Any other observations for today?

 2            MR. OSTOJIC:  No, Your Honours.

 3            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Thank you, Witness.

 4            MR. KOUMJIAN:  No, Mr. President.

 5                          [The witness stands down]

 6            JUDGE SCHOMBURG:  Then the trial stands adjourned until Monday,

 7    9.00.

 8                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

 9                          6.26 p.m., to be reconvened on

10                          Monday, the 27th day of May, 2002,

11                          at 9.00 a.m.