International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5287

1 Thursday, 27 June 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated. Good morning, everybody. The

6 case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. This is Case Number IT-97-24-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Milomir Stakic.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And the appearances. For the OTP?

10 MR. KOUMJIAN: Good morning. Nicholas Koumjian, with Ruth Karper,

11 for the Prosecution.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. And the Defence?

13 MR. LUKIC: Good morning, Your Honours. Branko Lukic for the

14 Defence.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Are you prepared to start

16 immediately with the cross-examination?

17 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours, I apologise because yesterday, I

18 prepared myself for the cross-examination, but Dr. Stakic instructed me

19 that we are not going to cross-examine this witness. And I apologise once

20 again for leaving this witness overnight. But we just established this

21 this morning, talking about these signature issues. I visited my client

22 this morning here prior to this trial.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I believe you shouldn't apologise. We

24 appreciate the outcome.

25 MR. LUKIC: Dr. Stakic expressed this because of the suffering of

Page 5288

1 this witness and his pretty bad mental state.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this understanding. But I think

3 it seems to be necessary to excuse formally the witness. May the witness

4 please be brought in.

5 [The witness entered court]


7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good morning. Please be seated immediately.

9 Mr. Karagic, this morning, we learned that the accused waived his

10 right to have a cross-examination by Defence counsel. Therefore, there

11 will be no additional questions put to you by the Defence.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But I have a desire to add

13 something, regardless of what he thinks, with your permission of course.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Of course, it's your right. And hereby I

15 formally ask you, do you have to add anything to what you stated

16 yesterday?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there are always details that

18 can be added, though I don't know how important they are for you.

19 However, there is something that I think is important, at least it is to

20 me. Although you probably know everything already, because you have all

21 my previous statements. On the other hand, if it's not necessary for me

22 to add anything or to repeat things, maybe then that would be it. But of

23 course, if you wish me to say something more, I'll be happy to do so.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You must know, only this what we have heard in

25 the courtroom, only this counts, not former written reports or statements

Page 5289

1 which, indeed, they are available for us. But when you feel that it's

2 necessary for you and you want to tell us something in addition to what

3 you told us yesterday, probably rethinking after the hearing of yesterday,

4 please feel free to do so.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It concerns the very beginning of my

6 story. I don't remember having told you anything about the cleansing

7 itself, at least I'm not sure. And, also, the ultimatum that was issued

8 by them, which was followed by the attack on Hambarine and this attack on

9 the checkpoint.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Probably for the clarity of the proceedings, I

11 think it's more appropriate that we regard this what follows now as

12 continuation of the examination-in-chief because it seems to be in

13 addition to that. May I ask, Mr. Koumjian, please take over.

14 MR. KOUMJIAN: Perhaps the ELMO could be lowered, the arm. Thank

15 you.

16 Examined by Mr. Koumjian: [Continued]

17 Q. Mr. Karagic, yesterday you briefly talked about the shelling of

18 Hambarine, which we understood the first time was at the end of May, 1992.

19 And you also then talked in more detail about events regarding the

20 cleansing of your village which, am I correct, that that happened in July

21 of 1992? Is that correct?

22 A. Yes. Just a second. Let me think. It's difficult.

23 Q. We understand that. If there are any details, dates --

24 A. You know, it has been ten years.

25 Q. That's very understandable. But prior to the attack on Hambarine,

Page 5290

1 did you hear anything about an ultimatum that was issued?

2 A. When this incident took place at the checkpoint in Hambarine --

3 Q. Just to be clear, you were not present at the checkpoint in

4 Hambarine when the incident took place; is that correct?

5 A. No, I was not. I wasn't, but some people ran up to the checkpoint

6 after fire had been opened on them. Later, people told us about it and we

7 learned about what had happened. The ultimatum was issued over the radio

8 on that night, and there were several shells that were fired during that

9 night. And the ultimatum expired by 12.00. Aziz Aliskovic, Sikiric,

10 whose name I don't know but who was from Hambarine, were there at the

11 checkpoint and the ultimatum concerned them. They were supposed to be

12 handed over.

13 I cannot remember all of the details but I remember that the

14 ultimatum was also about the weapons which were supposed to be

15 surrendered. So the next day, at about 12.00, and they were on time, the

16 shelling started from all sides: from the Urije neighbourhood, which is

17 in Prijedor, from the Topic hill, from Karana. I'm not sure about Lisejka

18 but I heard that it was also from there. But the locations that I

19 mentioned were something that I could see myself because, when the

20 shelling started, I ran to the Rizvanovici checkpoint, which was located

21 there in the direction of Tukovi. Because it was the first time that I

22 witnessed something like that. And every time I heard the detonation, I

23 would throw myself onto the ground. But I could see everything. I could

24 see shells falling down.

25 Q. Did anyone fire at the checkpoint in Rizvanovici?

Page 5291

1 A. No.

2 Q. Now, sometime later, a cleansing took place in Rizvanovici, is

3 that correct, what you call a "cleansing"? Is that correct?

4 A. Yes. It was an ethnic cleansing. But it took place later on, and

5 it went on in July as well.

6 Q. You've used that word "cleansing," and "ethnic cleansing" you just

7 used a couple times. Can you tell us what you mean when you say a

8 cleansing took place?

9 A. At the time when this word was used, I was not familiar with it.

10 But later, everybody kept referring to the event as "the cleansing." So

11 did I. I don't know how else to call it.

12 Q. What would happen in a cleansing? What was the pattern that you

13 saw?

14 A. The night before the cleansing, shells were fired on the

15 Rizvanovici village. Some hit the wooded area on the other side of the

16 Rizvanovici field, but not far from the houses. Some shells landed in the

17 farms and the yards. I could see that myself. So the next day, the next

18 morning, very early that morning, I was at the location called Sljunkara.

19 Then we went to -- first, we were actually in the area called Luka, and

20 then we went to Sljunkara or to the quarry. There were two neighbours

21 with me: One was from Hambarine and one was my next-door neighbour,

22 actually, a person from my village. There was another young man by the

23 name of Djoni. We were all hungry. This neighbour of mine wanted me to

24 go home and get some food, but I didn't want to. He and his cousin went

25 home before me, so me and this young man called Johnny were the first ones

Page 5292

1 to have seen the beginning of this cleansing, when they started shooting

2 and throwing hand grenades. We ran away immediately. He ran in a

3 different direction. I went in the direction of Solsa [phoen]. They were

4 shouting after me, telling me not to run. But I continued, of course, and

5 finally arrived in an area which is in the vicinity of my house, where a

6 number of people had gathered.

7 From that vantage point, we were able to see the whole area of

8 Prijedor and we could see soldiers taking up positions around the village.

9 Of course, I couldn't see everything, but I could tell that there were

10 quite a few of them. I asked the people around me, my neighbours, "What

11 are we going to do? Shall we run? Shall we flee?" Because we didn't

12 have anything to defend ourselves with. And they said: "Well, we're not

13 guilty of anything. They cannot possibly harm us in any way." They

14 simply didn't believe that that would happen. But anyway, with two other

15 neighbours, I escaped to the creek and we took shelter in a ditch where

16 there was still some water running. It seems strange now, but they were

17 already there, some 3 or 4 metres above the ditch, and we were down below

18 in the ditch.

19 Q. When you talk about "they were there," and you talked about the

20 people throwing hand grenades and shooting in your village, and "they took

21 up positions around the village," you said, are you referring, am I

22 correct, that all these times you're referring to soldiers of the former

23 JNA?

24 A. Those whom I was able to see were wearing military olive-grey

25 uniforms. I couldn't see all of them, but before I went into hiding, I

Page 5293

1 managed to see distinctly three of them, although there were many more.

2 Q. Did you see any individuals with police or reserve police uniforms

3 during the cleansing of your village?

4 A. At that time, I couldn't see anything because I was hidden in the

5 stream. I could just hear the shooting coming from all sides, and people

6 screaming, of course. But actually, that happened later.

7 Q. You said earlier that they were shooting and throwing hand

8 grenades. What were they shooting and throwing hand grenades at, could

9 you see?

10 A. When the cleansing began, they threw hand grenades. But the night

11 before, they fired shells on the village. I don't remember that they

12 shelled the village during the cleansing, because that would have

13 endangered themselves.

14 Q. When they were throwing hand grenades, did you see what the

15 targets were, where the hand grenades exploded?

16 A. Hand grenades?

17 Q. Yes. Yes, the hand grenades.

18 A. No, I couldn't see that. They were probably throwing those on the

19 houses as they were passing through the village.

20 Q. And you said -- did you later see damage to the houses?

21 A. I was talking about this stream. We stayed there until nightfall.

22 Before that, we didn't dare go close to the houses. The shooting lasted

23 the entire day. They had a lot of work to do. But they didn't meet any

24 resistance. When I came home, I found my mother there. These two other

25 guys went home to get some food as well. While I was at home -- I mean, I

Page 5294

1 didn't actually enter the house. My mother gave me some food through the

2 window. A man came from the village of Duratovici, but we called the area

3 Sabari [phoen], and he told me what happened in their village because

4 their village was the first one that was targeted. So there were not many

5 survivors in their village. My uncle was killed there, my father's

6 brother, who was quite old. He was killed there. And this other uncle,

7 the younger one, he was also killed behind the Munib Karagic's house. His

8 wife told us about that. And this Ferid person, I don't know whether I

9 have mentioned his surname -- I shouldn't have mentioned it, if I did. It

10 would not be in his interest. Anyway, Ferid, it was in front of his shop.

11 He owned a shop, you see, that this happened. What I'm trying to say is

12 that there were 20 or 30 dead bodies outside his shop of the people who

13 had been killed.

14 Across the street from his shop, there were also dead bodies in

15 about the same number. I mean, all of this is something that I did not

16 personally eyewitness. These are the stories that I heard later on. I

17 also heard that they made a young man jump from a two or three metre

18 height into a brook which was only several centimetres deep. I think he

19 was killed as a result of that. I believe that they called him Pekar.

20 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you, Mr. Karagic.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this --

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone Your Honour, please.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this additional information you

24 gave us this morning.

25 I have to ask formally the Defence, any questions?

Page 5295












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13 English transcripts.













Page 5296

1 I see there are no additional questions.

2 Judge Fassi Fihri, no questions. Judge Vassylenko, no questions.

3 Then we all have to thank you for this, I believe for you, very

4 difficult hearing providing us with these numerous informations. And you

5 can be quite sure that the informations will be in good hand, and we all

6 wish you that everything is possible and will be provided for you to

7 overcome all that what you experienced in the future. Thank you for being

8 here.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much for having

10 listened to me.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

12 [The witness withdrew]

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We have to continue with our proceedings. There

14 are now...

15 First of all, when discussing the results of previous hearings,

16 the Bench came to the conclusion that it would be helpful to have the

17 handwritten notes of Mr. McLeod admitted into evidence. Is the OTP

18 prepared to tender this entire binder of the handwritten notes starting

19 with the registration number 02052611 until 02052713?

20 MR. KOUMJIAN: I believe that would be no problem. They are not

21 actually physically present at the moment. We can get those in a few

22 minutes or at the break. Of course, it would be a copy of those.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I then no doubt have to come back to this later

24 on. Then it seems to be necessary to read out, and I emphasise with a

25 view to the booth, first of all, a very limited number of documents

Page 5297

1 because we can't discuss these documents without knowing about the

2 contents during the then-following Status Conference. And therefore, let

3 us, please, turn to the documents in list 2 and 3. And I would invite the

4 Prosecutor to inform us which documents allegedly be signed by Dr. Stakic.

5 They would add in the framework of the discussion of our Status

6 Conference. Therefore, please be prepared immediately after the break to

7 have these documents present and, hopefully, also the binder on the

8 originals, that we know what we are discussing in detail, having the

9 documents before us.

10 MR. KOUMJIAN: The originals of most of these documents are being

11 copied now, so we don't physically have the originals today because the

12 Trial Chamber asked for coloured copies. So that's where they are at.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: They are not in the premises?

14 MR. KOUMJIAN: I think they are copied outside the premises.

15 Yes.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then we have to proceed on the basis of the

17 documents we have before us. But please, as we, the Judges, don't know

18 what you provided for the Defence, be prepared that we have the other

19 documents where it's contested that the documents are signed by

20 Dr. Stakic, that they form part of the reading-out exercise now or

21 immediately after the break.

22 We should start -- please correct me if I'm wrong. The last time

23 we read out Document 78, the 17th of June. And then the next one would be

24 Document S79. What's the best arrangement that the booth has the document

25 available? I think it would indeed facilitate, if the French booth

Page 5298

1 doesn't object fundamentally, to read it out in English.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Okay, Exhibit S79.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Could the document please be placed on the ELMO,

4 perhaps.

5 THE REGISTRAR: If it helps, 65 ter 248.

6 "Handwritten, circulation 1D/? Dusan Jankovic, 1D Jankovic.

7 Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Autonomous Region of Krajina,

8 Municipality of Prijedor. Number: 02/111/215/92. Date: 17th of June,

9 1992.

10 "Pursuant to Articles 3 and 7 on the decision of the organisation

11 and work of the Crisis Staff of the Municipality of Prijedor, the Crisis

12 Staff of the Municipality of Prijedor at its session on 17 June, 1992, and

13 in connection with the report on the security situation in the area of the

14 municipality, adopted the following order:

15 "1. The Prijedor public security station and the Prijedor

16 regional command are ordered to form a joint intervention platoon to be

17 made up of 20 members from each, with a basic task of preventing looting

18 and other criminal activities in the area of the municipality and the

19 movement of all unregistered vehicles and vehicles driven by members of

20 the army and police without regularly approved travel authorisation.

21 "2. The members of the platoon from the previous item shall be

22 chosen from among the existing members of the army and police.

23 "3. The Crisis Staff shall give its consent to the members

24 proposed for the platoon by the regional command and the public security

25 station.

Page 5299

1 "4. The regional command and the public security station are

2 obliged to submit a written report on the activities and the work results

3 of the intervention platoon to the municipal Crisis Staff within seven

4 days.

5 "5. This order comes into effect on the date of its adoption.

6 "Sent to: Public security station. Regional command Prijedor.

7 Files.

8 "President of the Crisis Staff, Dr. Milomir Stakic." A signature,

9 and a stamp of the Prijedor Municipal Assembly.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Probably when we go to the B/C/S

11 document within the stamp, there seems to be a "Za" to be read.

12 MR. KOUMJIAN: Sorry. It appears to me that there is a "Za," and

13 it may even be Spiro Marmat's signature - I'm not sure about that - who

14 was the secretary for the Crisis Staff. But I want to make it clear that

15 we believe the accused is absolutely responsible for this just as I

16 sign --

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: That's another question. Just that we have

18 categories, and here I think the parties can agree that the signature is

19 not the signature of Dr. Stakic. The responsibility for this is a totally

20 different question. Right? Okay.

21 MR. LUKIC: We agree, Your Honour, that actually most of the

22 signatures are not the signature of Dr. Stakic.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Okay. May we then turn to Document 80, please,

24 which was 253.

25 THE REGISTRAR: "Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

Page 5300

1 Autonomous Region of Krajina, Prijedor Municipality, Crisis Staff.

2 Number: 02-111-258/92. Date: 23rd of June, 1992.

3 "Pursuant to Article 7 of the decision on the organisation and

4 work of the Prijedor Municipality Crisis Staff, the following conclusion

5 was adopted by the Prijedor Municipality Crisis Staff at the session held

6 on 23rd June, 1992.

7 "Conclusion:

8 "1. Funds from the Prijedor SO Municipal Assembly

9 budget in the amount of 55.727.880 dinars have been approved for public

10 services in the Prijedor Municipality as follows:

11 "1.1 To beneficiaries of the education sector in the amount of

12 54.550.250 dinars of which:

13 "1.11 For elementary education, 36.378.063 dinars.

14 "1.12 For secondary streamed education, 18.157.187 dinars.

15 "1.2 To users of the cultural centre, Kozara museum, the amateur

16 theatre, the national library, and the municipal KPZ cultural and

17 educational association, in the amount of 1.222.640 dinars.

18 "2. Funds for the services in question will be transferred

19 directly from the budget account to the transfer account of the

20 beneficiaries of the public services according to criteria determined by

21 the Prijedor SO Crisis Staff, and will be used only to pay employees'

22 salaries.

23 "3. The municipal secretary of the economy and public services

24 will be responsible for carrying out this conclusion.

25 "2.1 Secretary of the economy and public services.

Page 5301

1 "2.2 SDK.

2 "3. Records.

3 "4. Archives."

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The following document will be the former 65 ter

5 257, which is now S81.

6 MR. KOUMJIAN: I don't know it Your Honour wants to ask me the

7 same question, but I do believe I see a "Za" on the seal on this document

8 also, just before the Presidency is written in the -- say the north-east

9 corner of the stamp.

10 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, we had the chance to see the best

11 original the Prosecution has and, at any rate, at the beginning, we got

12 the documents S77, S79, and S80. We found that all the signatures are

13 different.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: But we have to do it document by document, and

15 here I think we can agree that one can see a "Za," and apparently the

16 signature is totally different from the one which was not contested, as I

17 think it was three times, the signature of Dr. Stakic. So once again,

18 this is in the category whether or not we have the responsibility of

19 Dr. Stakic even though he hasn't signed the document. But here I think

20 the parties agree that this is not the signature of Dr. Stakic.

21 May we now turn to Document 80.

22 THE REGISTRAR: "Handwritten, Simo Markovic. Serbian Republic of

23 Bosnia and Herzegovina. Handwritten, 49. Krajina Autonomous Region.

24 Handwritten, interrogation mark 50. Prijedor Municipality Crisis Staff.

25 Number: 02-111-237/92. Date: 23rd June, 1992.

Page 5302

1 "Pursuant to articles 3 and 7 of the decision on the organisation

2 and work of the Prijedor Municipality Crisis Staff, the Prijedor

3 Municipality Crisis Staff at a session held on 23rd June, 1992, took the

4 following decision:

5 "One, it is forbidden to use funds from the accounts of economic

6 enterprises and independent shops whose owners were killed, have moved

7 away, or were arrested for armed insurrection.

8 "Two, approval is hereby given to the municipal secretariat for

9 the economy to temporarily use the funds in the giro accounts of

10 the /people/ referred to in the preceding paragraph in the form of a loan.

11 "Three, the Prijedor SDK public auditing service and the municipal

12 secretariat of the economy shall see to the implementation of this

13 decision.

14 "Four, this decision comes into effect on the day it is adopted.

15 "Delivered to: 1, Prijedor SDK; 2, municipal secretariat for the

16 economy; 3, files.

17 "Handwritten for president of the Crisis Staff, Milomir Stakic."

18 A signature and stamped.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Signature? Defence?

20 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, I see that number 80 is mentioned. Is it

21 number 80 or 81?

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We are discussing 81, yes. Right. 81. The

23 former 257, that there is no doubt.

24 MR. LUKIC: As I mentioned, we were given 23 documents, and on

25 those 23 documents, we found six different signatures. And this signature

Page 5303

1 falls into category six. So this is not the signature of Dr. Stakic as

2 well.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Prosecution, observations?

4 MR. KOUMJIAN: I don't have any observation other than to say that

5 it appears to be different than, for example, the signature on the next

6 document, which is one we definitely contend is the accused.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: At least to the negative, what is not the

8 signature. May we then turn to the former 267, which is now 82. And

9 here, we have a set of documents evidently underlying in B/C/S in A-4

10 format. Then a printed version of this in the newspaper Glas from 26

11 June, 1992, and then this English interpretation. Would you please be so

12 kind and read out the English interpretation, 82A.

13 THE REGISTRAR: This document was subdivided as 82. I read both.


15 THE REGISTRAR: "Handwritten, 26 June, 1992. Announcement on the

16 cancellation of job openings.

17 "Pursuant to Articles 3 and 7 on the Decision of the Organisation

18 and Work of the Crisis Staff of Prijedor Municipality, at a session held

19 on 6 June, 1992, the Prijedor Municipality Crisis Staff decided to cancel

20 the opening for headmasters of the elementary schools in Prijedor

21 Municipality announced in Glas on 25 May, 1992."

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And then it continues on the next page because

23 there are two parts of a newspaper.

24 THE REGISTRAR: "30th of June, 1992, marks an end to 40 days of

25 pain and grief following the death of our dear uncle."

Page 5304












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13 English transcripts.













Page 5305

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: What is the nexus between these two documents,

2 please?

3 MR. KOUMJIAN: I'm not sure I even have that last translation. If

4 I'm -- I'm not sure about the last item. My understanding was that the

5 newspaper article discussed the decision that is in the -- that is the

6 next page that's signed by -- under the signature of Dr. Stakic or under

7 his name.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: But through the document, I wondered if there is

9 really a nexus between this additional outclip.

10 MR. KOUMJIAN: You're talking about the very small clip?

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes. Yes. You can see the English translation.

12 MR. KOUMJIAN: I see. I do now see it. I don't see any, other

13 than the fact that it is the following page on the ERN. So it could be

14 withdrawn.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think we can forget about this additional

16 clip. And then we have to return to the underlying decision, if this

17 could be --

18 MR. KOUMJIAN: Someone -- Ms. Karper had a suggestion which is

19 probably correct as an explanation: This probably was the back of the

20 piece of paper; both the front and back of the newspaper article were

21 photocopied. So the back is unrelated but it's on the original piece of

22 paper which has the article in the front.


24 MR. KOUMJIAN: Maybe.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May we now turn to the decision itself, as we

Page 5306

1 have it in the form of a decision, please.

2 THE REGISTRAR: "Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

3 Autonomous Region of Krajina, Prijedor Municipality Crisis Staff.

4 Number: 02-111-147/92. Date: 6 June, 1992.

5 "Pursuant to Article 7 of the Decision and Organisation of Work

6 of the Crisis Staff of Prijedor Municipality, the Prijedor Municipality

7 Crisis Staff, at a session held on 6 June, 1992, issued the following

8 decision with regard to the job opening announcement for elementary

9 schools in the municipality of Prijedor.


11 "1. The job opening announcement for headmasters of

12 elementary schools has been cancelled.

13 "The mandate of the present headmasters of present elementary

14 schools has been extended until further notice.

15 "2. This decision shall enter into force on the day it is

16 issued.

17 "CC, 1, Secretariat for Economic Affairs; 2, headmasters of

18 elementary schools; 3, files.

19 "Chairman of the Crisis Staff, signed and stamped, Dr. Milomir

20 Stakic."

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Let us now turn to this signature.

22 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, this is the signature of the accused.

23 That's our contention. We have no doubt about it.


25 MR. LUKIC: First of all, I would like to comment. This part of

Page 5307

1 the newspapers, something has been added. The date is handwritten.


3 MR. LUKIC: So I just want to have this on the record.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Handwritten over "Glas."

5 MR. LUKIC: That's right. Yes, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Handwritten and underlined. Right.

7 MR. LUKIC: Regarding the signature, it falls into category 2 and

8 is the same as S77, but different from others read today. So it is not

9 the signature of Dr. Stakic.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And it would be totally wrong from a perspective

11 of a person normally not writing or reading Cyrillic, but it is -- you

12 said it's not the signature of Dr. Stakic. No doubt one can read

13 "Dr. Stakic." Could it be the attempt to write the word "Milomir"?

14 MR. LUKIC: That can be anything, Your Honour. But it's not the

15 signature of Dr. Stakic.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

17 And then the next --

18 MR. LUKIC: And I apologise, Your Honour. It would be interesting

19 when we discuss about this to know the standpoint of the lead counsel from

20 the opposite regarding the signatures and the documents. I'm paraphrasing

21 but yesterday, on the Brdjanin/Talic case, Ms. Korner said it doesn't

22 matter if the signature is forged and if the document is forged, if it

23 responds to the reality. So probably we'll have a deeper impact on this

24 issue in the future.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: First of all, the final arbiter will be the

Page 5308

1 Bench. And second, we have to take the Prosecutor as one unit. And I

2 don't think it's any kind of minor importance when we get here the opinion

3 and the declaration of Mr. Koumjian. So, therefore, it is not for the

4 Judges to decide who is present. What we will not allow is that, later

5 on, another Defence counsel -- another, yeah, this was a Freudian --

6 another representative of the OTP appears and tells us just the opposite,

7 defending another position. This will, of course, will not be allowed.

8 So, the next document apparently is a clip from a newspaper, has

9 nothing to do with what we are doing today, signatures. So we have to

10 turn immediately to the former 278, which is S84.

11 THE REGISTRAR: "Handwritten, copies: 1, Marko Dzenadija;

12 2, D. Markovic; 3, M. Topic. Delivered on 9 July, 1992.

13 "Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Autonomous Region of

14 Krajina, Municipality of Prijedor Crisis Staff. Number 010-023-49/92.

15 Date: 2nd of July, 1992.

16 "Pursuant to Articles 3 and 7 of the decision on the organisation

17 and work of the Crisis Staff of the Prijedor Municipality, at its meeting

18 on 2nd of July, 1992, the Prijedor Crisis Staff issued the following

19 order:

20 "One, all organs, enterprises, and communities are ordered to

21 terminate the employment of workers who have participated in the armed

22 rebellion and who are currently in Omarska and Keraterm.

23 "Two, information about these workers is to be submitted by the

24 Prijedor public security station on the request of the above-mentioned

25 organs, enterprises, and communities.

Page 5309

1 "Three, the public security station and the competent municipal

2 inspection service will be responsible for the execution of this order.

3 "Four, this order shall enter into effect on the day it is issued.

4 "Copies to: 1, all parties mentioned in the order; 2, files.

5 "President of the Crisis Staff, Milomir Stakic, signed and

6 stamped."

7 MR. LUKIC: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I don't have this document on

8 the list, so I haven't checked it yet with my client.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could the usher please be so kind and --

10 MR. KOUMJIAN: I think he has a copy. It's just that he didn't

11 realise that was a signature we were contending was the accused.

12 [Defence counsel and the accused confer]

13 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours, I don't know what kind of copy do you

14 have, but I can see nothing --

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It's the one you have before you. It's my

16 personal copy.

17 MR. LUKIC: Neither Dr. Stakic nor myself can read anything from

18 this.

19 MR. KOUMJIAN: The original may be slightly better, but obviously

20 there's a problem with the -- although I believe our original probably is

21 a photocopy. It's not an original. It appears to me to be the "Milomir"

22 or "S. Milomir" in Latin script. The signature that we contend is the

23 signature of the accused. I understand that the accused is denying the

24 Latin script signatures and only admitting the Cyrillic script signatures.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May the usher bring the document back. Thank

Page 5310

1 you.

2 Then we turn to the former 279, which is now 85. May we please

3 hear the text. It's the former 299, right. The one was withdrawn. And

4 therefore 86 is the former 299.

5 THE REGISTRAR: "Serbian Republic, Autonomous Region of Krajina,

6 the Crisis Staff and the War Presidency, Municipal Assembly of Prijedor,

7 Prijedor.

8 Subject: Action upon the objections submitted by the Omarska Club

9 of Deputies.

10 "The Omarska Club of Deputies has stated its objection to the

11 draft decision on the verification of decisions adopted by the Crisis

12 Staff and the War Presidency between 29th of May and 24th of July, 1992.

13 The objection states that names have been omitted from the appointments of

14 directors and managers. The submission is accepted, and the document

15 amended as follows:

16 "1. Ranko Sikman has been appointed acting director of the

17 MC/Medical Centre, replacing Risto Banovic.

18 "2. Mladen Stojanovic has been appointed acting principal of the

19 Catering and Economics School, and Zivoin Havdukovic assistant principal.

20 "3. Mile Vitkovic has been appointed acting principal of the

21 Engineering School, and Dragomir Surlan assistant principal.

22 "4. Bogdan Delic has been appointed acting principal of the High

23 School, and Lazar Gvozdenovic assistant principal.

24 "5. Goran Kantar has been appointed acting principal of the

25 Chemistry and Construction School, and Vera Jazic the assistant principal.

Page 5311

1 "6. Milorad Mazalic has been appointed acting principal of the

2 Agricultural and Food Production School, and Marko Jurusic the assistant

3 principal.

4 "7. Milos Rajcevic has been appointed acting principal of the

5 School of Electrical Engineering, and Nada Balaban, assistant principal.

6 "8. Radmila Misiraca has been appointed acting principal of the

7 Special Elementary and Secondary School.

8 "9. Mladen Milasinovic has been appointed acting director of the

9 Kozara National Park, replacing Dragan Radakovic.

10 "10. Brane Kecman has been appointed acting manager of the

11 DP/socially owned Kozaraputevi enterprise, replacing Husein Redzic.

12 "11. Milan Topic has been appointed acting manager of the Jela

13 Forest Industries in Kozarac, replacing Zijad Mahmuljin.

14 "12. Zdravko Kovacevic has been appointed acting manager of the

15 Sportka Dvorana Mladost Public Company /sports hall/, replacing

16 Emir Babic.

17 "13. Milenko Dujo has been appointed acting manager of the

18 4. Juli Public Company replacing Jusuf Harambasic.

19 "14. Jelenko Konjevic has been appointed acting manager of the

20 Kozaraturist socially-owned company, replacing Mehmedalija Kapetanovic.

21 "15. Janko Stjepic has been appointed acting manager of the GIRO

22 Mrakovica socially-owned company, replacing Rizah Beglerbegovic.

23 "16. Milutin Dobrijevic has been appointed the Chief of the

24 Unemployment Bureau, replacing Nedim Cehajic.

25 "17, Zoran Stanisavljevic has been appointed acting manager of the

Page 5312

1 Mozaik socially-owned company, replacing Alija Bahtijaragic.

2 "The decisions on dismissals and appointments were published in

3 the Official Gazette of the Prijedor Municipality, no. 2/92 of 25 June,

4 1992, with names included as above.

5 "Crisis Staff, War Presidency."

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Here apparently one can see no signature at

7 all. The question, in the direction of the OTP: Do we have this Official

8 Gazette of the Prijedor Municipality mentioned there?

9 MR. KOUMJIAN: I believe we do. And while you're reading the next

10 few documents, I'll try to find it. I believe it's already one of our

11 exhibits. I'll check.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think it would be important to have this in a

13 context for a better understanding because this seems to be a kind of

14 declaration only because they were published, the decisions were

15 published, and now it's -- on the execution, that the correct

16 understanding, as it is read, the verification of decisions.

17 MR. KOUMJIAN: My understanding, Your Honour, is that we do have

18 issue number 2 of the Gazette, so I will endeavour to find that particular

19 decision if it was published.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

21 MR. KOUMJIAN: I see later we have portions of it already admitted

22 into evidence, particular decisions.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes, but this concrete one would be helpful if

24 we would have it in the context.

25 Observations by the Defence on this document?

Page 5313












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5314

1 MR. LUKIC: No signature, so we cannot comment on that. Only what

2 is strange with this document is that it is mentioned at the same time an

3 existence of a War Presidency and a Crisis Staff that never occurred

4 actually in life.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: You mentioned six categories. In which kind of

6 category of your categorisation --

7 MR. LUKIC: Seventh, there is no signature.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then we would have to make a distinction, 7 and

9 8, something that is published in the Official Gazette, and something we

10 have only as a piece of paper, having no signature at all.

11 MR. LUKIC: It will be part of our Defence to show how the whole

12 procedure and the apparatus worked.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The OTP, they want to make --

14 MR. KOUMJIAN: Just to respond to the argument or testimony or

15 whatever it was of counsel, I think the evidence will show that the words

16 "Crisis Staff," "War Presidency," "War Commission," I believe was another

17 term, were used interchangeably quite a bit. There's quite a bit of

18 confusion on all levels about the regional level and the municipal level

19 as to the various terms that were all authorised by the republic

20 leadership. It started out as a Crisis Staff; then there was a decision

21 to call it the War Presidency, and I think at one time, a War Commission.

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good to know the exact positions of the parties

23 on this.

24 Then we have to turn immediately to the former 84, which is now

25 S101.

Page 5315

1 THE REGISTRAR: "Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

2 Assembly of the Serbian people of Prijedor Municipality. At its session

3 held on 26th of March, 1992, the Serbian People's Assembly of the Prijedor

4 Municipality passed the following decision on the election of deputies to

5 the Assembly of the Autonomous Region of Bosanska Krajina.

6 "Article 1: By secret vote, out of several candidates, the

7 following were elected as deputies:

8 "1. Milomir Stakic.

9 "2. Milan Kovacevic.

10 "3. Milan Pilinovic.

11 "4. Simo Drljaca.

12 "5. Dusan Kurnoga.

13 "6. Simo Miskovic.

14 "7. Dragan Sidjak.

15 "Article 2, the decision enters into force immediately.

16 "No. ___/92. Date, 7th of March, 1992. President of the Serbian

17 People's Assembly, Milomir Stakic, signed. Stamp, SDS. Serbian Republic

18 of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbian Municipal Assembly, Prijedor."

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The Defence.

20 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours, I have to admit that I don't have this

21 document either because my list of interesting documents for the

22 Prosecution ends with number S85. So I don't have -- I didn't bring with

23 me anything afterwards. I have all documents in my locker. So if we make

24 a break --

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I come back to the earlier ones immediately. I

Page 5316

1 think --

2 MR. KOUMJIAN: I thought I recalled --

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Mr. Ostojic already acknowledged this signature.

4 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, Dr. Stakic recognises this as his

5 signature, although I don't have my copy with me.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: But [Inaudible] -- Mr. Ostojic earlier. But now

7 we have the content of the document.

8 Then the next one would be, yes, right, the former 140 which is

9 105. If the usher could please bring one of the copies in B/C/S to the

10 Defence. Thank you.

11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters do not have a copy.

12 THE REGISTRAR: "Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

13 Autonomous Region of Bosanska Krajina, Prijedor Municipal Assembly. Date:

14 8 May, 1992. Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina People's Assembly

15 of the Serbian Republic, Sarajevo.

16 "Subject: Information.

17 "The Municipal Assembly of Prijedor at its session held on 16

18 April, 1992, adopted a proposal to elect Mico Kreca as president of the

19 lower court in Prijedor, and Milenko Tomic as public Prosecutor.

20 "Mico Kreca holds the position of an investigating judge at the

21 lower court in Prijedor and has been employed at the court since 1972.

22 Milenko Tomic has been employed at the lower court in Prijedor since 1987,

23 and since 1990 has occupied the position of court consultant to the judge.

24 "President of the Assembly, Dr. Milomir Stakic. Signed. Stamp:

25 In both Cyrillic and Latin alphabets, Socialist Republic of Bosnia and

Page 5317

1 Herzegovina, Municipal Assembly of Prijedor, Prijedor coat of arms."


3 MR. LUKIC: This signature resembles the signature of Mr. Stakic,

4 so it's possible that his signature was on the original.

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It was read out only today. It was recognised

6 only when we went through the documents --

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone please, Judge.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And then finally, the former document, the 65

9 ter 69, the list of exhibits one cannot yet identify, but it was read out,

10 but we already discussed it, just to be on the safe side, as regards the

11 signature.

12 THE REGISTRAR: "Assembly of the Serbian people of Prijedor

13 Municipality, Prijedor.

14 "Handwritten, 078-12-591. No. 003/92. Date: 17th April, 1992.

15 "On the basis of rules of procedure of the Assembly of the Serbian

16 people of Prijedor Municipality, at its session held on 17 January, 1992,

17 the Assembly issued a decision joining the Autonomous Region of Bosnian

18 Krajina.

19 "Article 1: The Assembly of the Serbian people of Prijedor

20 Municipality hereby unanimously adopts a decision on joining the Serbian

21 territories of Prijedor Municipality to the Autonomous Region of Bosnian

22 Krajina.

23 "Article 2: This decision shall enter into force on the day of

24 its adoption at the session of the Assembly of the Serbian people of

25 Prijedor Municipality.

Page 5318

1 "President of the Assembly of the Serbian people of Prijedor

2 Municipality, Dr. Milomir Stakic, signed and stamped."

3 MR. LUKIC: Same as for the previous one, Your Honours. It

4 resembles the signature of Dr. Stakic, so it's possible that he signed the

5 original.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We had already a more clear comment on this in

7 the session of -- let me see. I just have the minutes before me of this

8 session. Here it says the Defence notes that the accused only recognised

9 his signature on S96, which is the document before you, S101, and S105.

10 MR. LUKIC: I'm not sure now whether we just expressed the concern

11 because this is a photocopy at that time as the only reservation. Nothing

12 else.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Let me ask directly. When will be the

14 originals, the most original documents, available?

15 MR. KOUMJIAN: Monday. Just for the court's information, also,

16 the notes of Mr. McLeod are available now.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: They are available now. Okay.

18 Then we have two minutes to go. They are tendered by the OTP?


20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, counsel, please.

21 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you. Yes, Your Honour, the Prosecution would

22 tender as the next exhibit in order the handwritten notes of Mr. McLeod.

23 They are ERN number 02052611 through 02052713.

24 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Objections? These are the handwritten notes of

25 Witness McLeod, the basis of what we have in the English transcript but we

Page 5319

1 identified already when reading out very small, tiny discrepancies. And

2 therefore, to be on the safe side, it seems to be necessary to base any

3 decisions, if so -- if any, on these copies from the originals.

4 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, if you can advise me, because my

5 colleague did Mr. McLeod. I don't know whether he objected to the typed

6 version.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Probably you remember that we came back several

8 times and it was Mr. Ostojic asking questions, for example, how come that

9 one can read the name "Dr. Milomir Stakic" first in Cyrillic and then in

10 Latin, and so on. So it was -- it formed part of the testimony of the

11 witness and, therefore, it seems to be necessary to have it as evidence

12 before us.

13 MR. LUKIC: No objections, then, Your Honour. Thank you.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then this document is admitted into evidence

15 under S171.

16 Before having the break now, will it be possible to have within

17 the next 30 minutes for the OTP all the other documents where it is

18 alleged that the signature is the one of Dr. Stakic, the one not included

19 in 2 and 3, list 2 and 3?

20 MR. KOUMJIAN: We did go through the exercise of going through the

21 documents, and I'll have the list that we came up with. I hope we didn't

22 miss any.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So you are prepared that we proceed in this way,

24 document by document, after the break?

25 MR. KOUMJIAN: With copies of those documents, yes.

Page 5320

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then -- please.

2 MR. LUKIC: Excuse me. I have here in my locker only admitted

3 documents, so "S" numbers. If something falls outside of these documents,

4 then either I will have to use Your Honour's or if I can get one from the

5 Prosecution.

6 MR. KOUMJIAN: What I asked a week or so ago is for someone to put

7 these decisions together in a binder, and I understand that that's been

8 done. If we can have a long enough break, I can try to get that

9 photocopied a couple of times.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then the trial stands adjourned until 10 minutes

11 past 10.00 for this special purpose. Thank you.

12 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

13 --- On resuming at 11.20 a.m.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated.

15 For the record, additional appearance with the OTP.

16 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you, Your Honour. Pooja Bhalla is present in

17 Court. She prepared the documents that the OTP -- the additional

18 documents we believe were signed by the accused which have not been

19 admitted into evidence to date.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Let's try to find a way that it

21 becomes not too chaotic now, and I think in order to do so, we should

22 first try to stick to those documents that are already admitted into

23 evidence, just for clarification.

24 Before the break, we came to Document S105. Can you assist us

25 whether or not on the list number 3, there are additional documents where,

Page 5321

1 in the opinion of the OTP, a signature of Dr. Stakic can be found?

2 I think, whilst you're looking, the next one could be S110. There

3 is no signature, but we're trying to have some categories. And later on,

4 we will precise what the categories of the parties indeed are. But here,

5 we have a document in the Official Gazette of Prijedor Municipality, and

6 in this Official Gazette, we find not the signature but a document signed

7 "Dr. Milomir Stakic."

8 And I take it that in those cases where we have only the printed

9 version, the underlying document is not available for the OTP. Is this

10 correct?

11 MR. KOUMJIAN: I would hesitate to make that statement

12 categorically. I think I would have to check with each particular one

13 whether that's true or not.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So that we in future also can work with these

15 categories, possibly it's necessary really to find a common picture where

16 there is a likelihood and where there is not a likelihood, where we in the

17 beginning already can say there is no signature at all. And on the basis

18 of the contributions of the parties, already say: "No, very haven't to go

19 into further details of this document." But here, from my point of view,

20 it seems to be necessary.

21 Are there any comments as regards the authorisation of these

22 documents by the Defence? Of course, I have to emphasise once again, it's

23 the right of the Defence and Defence counsel to remain silent on this

24 issue. But just in case you prefer to give a contribution, let us know.

25 MR. LUKIC: I would like to reserve that right, Your Honour, not

Page 5322












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5323

1 to discuss this kind of documents right away.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. It's, as I said, of course your

3 fundamental right.

4 But may I then ask that this document be read out, document the

5 former 261, being now S110.

6 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, my understanding is that the

7 interpreters are missing this part of this document. I have two copies.

8 I could provide one.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: One will be put on the ELMO.

10 MR. KOUMJIAN: Do you need my copy or no?

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It should be sufficient, is my understanding.

12 Please start.

13 THE REGISTRAR: "Official Gazette of Prijedor Municipality.

14 Thursday, 25 June, 1992. Issue 2/92.

15 "18.

16 "At its session of 20 May, 1992, Prijedor Municipal Assembly,

17 pursuant to Article 110 of the constitution of the Serbian Republic of

18 Bosnia and Herzegovina, Official Gazette of the Serbian people in Bosnia

19 and Herzegovina, issue number 3/92 adopted the following:

20 "Decision on the organisation and work of Prijedor Municipal

21 Crisis Staff.

22 "Article 1: Prijedor Municipal Crisis Staff is hereby

23 established and its organisation and sphere of action set out.

24 "Article 2: Prijedor Municipal Crisis Staff has been established

25 to coordinate the functions of the authorities, the defence of the

Page 5324

1 municipal territory, the protection of safety of people and property,

2 the establishment of government, and the organisation of all other fields

3 of life and work. As coordinator, the Crisis Staff shall create

4 conditions enabling the Municipal Executive Committee to discharge its

5 legal executive functions, manage the economy, and other areas of life.

6 "Article 3: Should the Municipal Assembly be unable to sit in

7 session, Prijedor Municipal Crisis Staff shall decide on matters falling

8 within the province of the assembly jurisdiction.

9 "As soon as it is possible to convene a session of the assembly,

10 it shall be the duty of the Crisis Staff to submit for endorsement all

11 decisions which it has adopted and which would normally fall within the

12 province of the assembly.

13 "Article 4: Prijedor Municipal Crisis Staff shall have a

14 president, a vice-president, and nine members.

15 "The President of the Municipal Assembly shall serve ex officio as

16 the president of the Crisis Staff, and the vice-president of the

17 Municipal Assembly as the vice-president of the Crisis Staff.

18 "The following shall serve as members of the Crisis Staff: The

19 President of the Municipality Executive Committee, Commander of the

20 Municipal Territorial Defence Staff, Commander of the Municipal People's

21 Defence Staff, Chief of the Public Security Station, Secretary of

22 Municipal Secretariat for Trade, Industry, and Public Services, Secretary

23 of the Municipal Secretariat for Town Planning, Housing, Utilities, and

24 Legal Property Affairs, the Health and Social Security Officer at

25 Municipal Secretariat for the Economy and Social Affairs, and Information

Page 5325

1 Officer at Municipal Secretariat for the Economy and Social Affairs.

2 "Article 5: In accordance with the assessment of the political

3 and security situation and realistic requirements, the Crisis Staff shall

4 adopt relevant decisions on the organisation and work of the Municipal

5 Assembly, its organs, and other municipal organs and local communes.

6 "Article 6: In discharging its functions in the area of defence,

7 the Crisis Staff shall, in particular, coordinate the work and activities

8 of all components of all people's defence, consider issues of

9 mobilisation, development and reinforcement of the armed forces and other

10 organisations and foster their cooperation with other responsible

11 municipal organs; on special request of the Commander of the Municipal

12 Territorial Defence staff, deal with issues of supply requirements and

13 funding sources for the TO; keep abreast of all aspects of the situation

14 in the municipality essential for the waging of armed combat and take

15 appropriate measures; monitor the implementation of the recruitment plan

16 and, where necessary, take measures for successful implementation thereof.

17 "Article 7: In exercising its functions from the fields of the

18 economy and social affairs, the Crisis Staff shall in particular: Adopt

19 decisions relevant to the organisation and functioning of the economy in

20 the public, private, and mixed ownership sectors, the organisation and

21 functioning of social affairs, the organisation and management of finance

22 sector, and the care of refugees and the destitute; where necessary,

23 decide on the introduction of food and strategically important supply

24 rationing; monitor the implementation of the aforementioned decisions by

25 considering municipal executive committee reports and issue specific

Page 5326

1 orders to eliminate eventualities which might complicate or preclude their

2 implementation.

3 "Article 8: In discharging its functions in civil defence and the

4 monitoring and reporting service /as printed/ the Crisis Staff shall in

5 particular, through Municipal Civil Defence Staff and other agencies, take

6 measures to achieve the highest possible degree of civil defence readiness

7 for the accomplishment of its tasks and through Municipal People's Defence

8 Secretariat take measures and action for the successful functioning of the

9 communications centre and the monitoring and reporting service.

10 "Article 9: The Crisis Staff shall at all times cooperate with

11 the army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, civil defence,

12 and public security, through the senior officers or organs of these

13 institutions. The Crisis Staff shall cooperate with all other businesses

14 and public organisations in the municipality through the municipal

15 executive committee.

16 "Article 10: The Crisis Staff shall create conditions for the

17 work of the international peace and humanitarian organisations and

18 facilitate unhindered passage of convoys carrying humanitarian aid through

19 the territory of the municipality.

20 "Article 11: The provisions of the constitution, the law and

21 decisions adopted by the Assembly, the Presidency, and the government of

22 the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and the responsible organs

23 of the Autonomous Region of the Banja Luka Krajina have been and shall

24 remain the foundation for the work of Prijedor Municipal Crisis Staff.

25 "Article 12: The Crisis Staff shall gather all relevant

Page 5327

1 information on the situation on the ground, report and consult with the

2 competent organs of the Autonomous Region of the Banja Luka Krajina and

3 with those of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina whenever

4 required or possible.

5 "Article 13: This decision shall enter into force on the day it

6 is adopted.

7 "Article 14: This decision shall remain in force as long as a

8 need exists for the work of the Prijedor Municipal Crisis Staff. Prijedor

9 Municipal Assembly may adopt a decision revoking this decision.

10 "Article 15: This decision shall be published in the Official

11 Gazette of Prijedor Municipality.

12 "No. 01-023-24/92. Prijedor. Date: 20 May 1992.

13 "Dr. Milomir Stakic, President, Municipal Assembly."

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

15 May I ask whether or not the OTP is in the possession of the

16 original of this Official Gazette?

17 MR. KOUMJIAN: I would have to do -- have someone do a computer

18 search on that. I do not know of one off the top of my head.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I would appreciate if it would be possible that

20 we really know where we work with photocopies only and where we have the

21 originals available. No doubt, this could be a fundamental document and,

22 therefore, please take care that in case it's available, then we may have

23 it.

24 In order to stay in a chronological order, we have to jump over

25 the next document and come immediately to Document 263, now S112. One

Page 5328

1 copy for the ELMO. And here, the same request, whether or not we have the

2 original of the Official Gazette available.

3 MR. KOUMJIAN: Sorry, just to be clear, you're not asking for the

4 Official Gazette. We do have that available, or we have a copy of that.

5 I thought you meant --

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: A print -- a copy of this Official Gazette.

7 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes, I believe we do have a copy of that. Correct?

8 That's what you have on your desk? And that we can provide at the next

9 break or Monday.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

11 THE REGISTRAR: "Page number 36 Official Gazette. Issue 2/92.

12 "19.

13 "At its meeting of 20 May 1992, Prijedor Municipal Assembly,

14 pursuant to Article 110 of the Constitution of the Serbian Republic of

15 Bosnia and Herzegovina, Official Gazette of the Serbian people in Bosnia

16 and Herzegovina, issue number /?/3892, and Article 4 of the decision on

17 the Organisation and Work of Prijedor Municipal Crisis Staff [Official

18 Gazette of the Municipality /as printed/ issue number ___/92] adopted the

19 following decision on appointments to Prijedor Municipal Crisis Staff:

20 "1: The following are hereby appointed to the post of president,

21 vice-president, and members of Prijedor Municipal Crisis Staff:

22 "1: To the post of President, Dr. Milomir Stakic, President of

23 Prijedor Municipal Assembly.

24 "2: To the post of vice-president, Dragan Savanovic,

25 Vice-President of Prijedor Municipal Assembly.

Page 5329

1 3: To the post of Member, Dr. Milan Kovacevic, President of the

2 Executive Committee of Prijedor Municipality.

3 "4: To the post of Member, Slobodan Kuruzovic, commander of

4 municipal Territorial Defence staff.

5 "5: To the post of Member, Bosko Mandic, Commander of Prijedor

6 Municipal Civil Defence Staff.

7 "6: To the post of Member, Simo Drljaca, Chief of Prijedor Public

8 Security Station.

9 "7: To the post of Member, Slavko Budimir, Secretary of Prijedor

10 Municipal Secretariat for People's Defence.

11 "8: To the post of Member, Ranko Travar, Secretary of Prijedor

12 Municipal Secretariat for the Economy and Social Affairs.

13 "9: To the post of Member, Vojo Pavicic, Secretary of Prijedor

14 municipal Secretariat for Town Planning, Housing, Utilities, and Legal

15 Property Affairs.

16 "10: To the post of Member, Dr. Zeljko Macura, Health and Social

17 Security Officer Secretary at Prijedor Municipal Secretariat for the

18 Economy and Social Affairs.

19 "II: This decision shall enter into force on the day it is

20 adopted.

21 "III: This decision shall be published in the Official Gazette

22 of Prijedor Municipality.

23 "Number: 01-023-25/92. Prijedor. Date, 20 May 1992.

24 Dr. Milomir Stakic, President, Municipal Assembly."

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. And may we now turn to page 54 of

Page 5330

1 the same Official Gazette, but this is number 55, document from --

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone Your Honour.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sorry. Official Gazette, issue, once again, 2

4 of 1992, page number 54. That is the former 65 ter number 262 and now

5 S111. It's relatively short. And in B/C/S, it's only admitted into

6 evidence. We have an entire page, number 54. Only number 55.

7 THE REGISTRAR: "Page number 54 Official Gazette. Issue 2/92.

8 "55.

9 "At its meeting convened at 1630 on 29 May 1992, Prijedor

10 Municipal Crisis Staff adopted the following decision:

11 "1: Major Slobodan Kuruzovic, Commander of Prijedor Serbian

12 Territorial Defence, is relieved of duties as of 29 May, 1992, and placed

13 under the command of the command of the region.

14 "2: This decision shall enter into force forthwith and Prijedor

15 Municipal Crisis Staff and the regional command shall see to it that it is

16 carried out.

17 "Number: 02-111-107/92. Prijedor. Date: 29 May 1992.

18 "Dr. Milomir Stakic, President, Crisis Staff."

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

20 And then another part of the same Official Gazette, number 2 of

21 1992. It's page number 69, the former 65 ter 264, which is now S113.

22 THE REGISTRAR: "Page number 69. Official Gazette, issue 2/92.

23 "97.

24 "At its meeting of 29 May, 1992, Prijedor Municipal Crisis

25 Staff reached the following conclusion:

Page 5331












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5332

1 "1: Because of the formation of the army of the Serbian Republic

2 of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the need for the Serbian Territorial Defence

3 has ceased. The Serbian Territorial Defence shall be incorporated into

4 the structure of the region and placed under its command.

5 "2: This conclusion shall enter into force on the day it is

6 adopted, and Prijedor Municipal Crisis Staff and the regional command

7 shall be responsible for its implementation.

8 "Number: 02-111-110/92. Prijedor. Date: 29 May 1992.

9 "Dr. Milomir Stakic, President, Crisis Staff."

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

11 May I ask now the Prosecution, is there any -- under document in

12 the list number 3, you believe there would be a signature of Dr. Stakic?

13 MR. KOUMJIAN: No. I believe there are no additional ones that we

14 have not yet covered.

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And this is also true for list number 2? We

16 discussed it in the past already.

17 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes. And again, I'm only dealing with signatures

18 and not -- for example, in S116, it does indicate its a document from the

19 Crisis Staff/War presidency, but there's no signature on that typewritten

20 document.


22 Then we proceed now on the basis of the distributed documents. I

23 take it that everybody has, first of all, the list of the documents, and

24 then this compilation starting with apparently former 65 ter number 10.

25 MR. KOUMJIAN: Perhaps, Your Honour, I would like to offer this

Page 5333

1 provisionally as an exhibit. I realise we haven't yet identified where it

2 came from, but we will be prepared to do that late.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think it is my understanding that especially

4 Mr. Inayat will be the one discussing this issue. And we explicitly left

5 this open for discussion later.

6 MR. KOUMJIAN: I think it would be clearer if we gave it an "S"

7 number now provisionally.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think it's not necessary provisional. We have

9 to discuss it then on this basis with Witness Inayat. And we should be

10 clear from the outset what is the basis and what is expected from

11 Mr. Inayat, that he can prepare his statement with a view to the documents

12 we have in this bundle before us. So, therefore, the intention is, also

13 for clarification, to discuss the admission into evidence immediately

14 after we have read out the document before us.

15 So may we then start with the former S10. And may I please hear

16 we are with S172; is that right?

17 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.

18 "Record sheet.

19 "Committee member /handwritten/: Milomir Stakic attended the

20 Prijedor Municipal Assembly meeting on 4 January, 1991.

21 "Signature. Signed."

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Always now, as a matter of principle, if you

23 want, but only then, you may add a comment to the signature and objections

24 or not objections against the admission into evidence of this document.

25 MR. LUKIC: Being aware that I cannot testify, Your Honour, but

Page 5334

1 still, I would like to point that this signature can clarify a lot of

2 things. It is obvious that the president never signs such a document but

3 that's the job of a clerk. So we can see this signature many times as you

4 pointed out, as "S. Milomir."

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So this is contested. And what about the

6 admission into evidence?

7 MR. LUKIC: So on the same basis, we object for the admission.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted into evidence as S172.

9 Then 35, it would be 173. Can the OTP indicate why this document

10 as regards signatures?

11 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes. This is, I think, a critical document. As

12 former 65 ter number 35 indicates that because of a change in the party

13 leadership of the SDS, the signatures for the bank account of that

14 organisation have been changed. And apparently, this is a document going

15 to the bank and has the signatures of those persons who are authorised to

16 disburse funds for the party. The two signatures that are provided are

17 the signature of Dr. Kovacevic. You see Dr. Kovacevic's signing below his

18 name on the left-hand side if you look at the Cyrillic document, the

19 original document. You see that the other person whose signature is

20 authorised is Dr. Stakic, immediately below Dr. Kovacevic appears the

21 "S. Milomir," the same signature that counsel just indicated a clerk

22 would provide. We indicate we would argue that you don't have a clerk

23 sign your original signature to authorise disbursement of funds at a bank

24 account.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask Defence counsel, has Dr. Stakic the

Page 5335

1 documents before himself that he can follow what we're discussing?

2 MR. LUKIC: Yes, I just show him the document.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: He has the same bundle as we all have? Is there

4 an additional bundle?

5 MR. LUKIC: I pass -- I give him the document when it's needed.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Let's proceed. Probably it will be provided in

7 the future.

8 Sorry. I interrupted you.

9 MR. LUKIC: Although it's obvious that here should be a signature

10 of Milomir Stakic, Dr. Milomir Stakic, we will prove, I hope, during the

11 proceedings that this is not his signature as well.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May this document then be read out. Could the

13 usher please bring one bundle to the accused.

14 THE REGISTRAR: "BH, Serbian Democratic Party, SDS.

15 "Prijedor SDS Municipal Board, OO.

16 "Prijedor. Number: /? 37/91.

17 "Date: 14 November 1991.

18 "On the basis of a statutory decision, the Prijedor SDS OO adopted

19 the following decision at its meeting held on 14 November 1991:

20 "Decision to change the signatories for the Prijedor SDS OO

21 account number 11900-678-11919.

22 "Reasons: Following changes in the party leadership, it is

23 necessary to change the signatories of our business account. In addition

24 to the President of the Prijedor SDS OO, Simo Miskovic, whose signature is

25 shown here /signature/ the following members of the Prijedor SDS Municipal

Page 5336

1 Organisation hereby deposit their signatures:

2 "Dr. Milan Kovacevic." Next two lines signature between

3 slashes.

4 "Dr. Milomir Stakic." "Dr. Milan Kovacevic."

5 "Dr. Milomir Stakic."

6 Between brackets, signature deposited. First and last line

7 between brackets.

8 "Prijedor SDS OO President: Simo Miskovic. And between

9 slashes, "signed and stamped."

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Being aware of the objections raised by the

11 Defence, this document is admitted into evidence as S173.

12 May we now turn to 54. May it please be read out.

13 THE REGISTRAR: "Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

14 Serbian Municipal Assembly of Prijedor. Prijedor. Number: ___/92.

15 Date: ___ 1992.

16 "Pursuant to Article 5 of the rules of procedure of the Serbian

17 Municipal Assembly of Prijedor, the Serbian Municipal Assembly of Prijedor

18 hereby adopts the following decision on the stamp of the Serbian Municipal

19 Assembly of Prijedor:

20 "Article 1: The stamp is round, with a diameter of 50

21 millimetres, and along the edges has the following Cyrillic text: Serbian

22 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbian Municipal Assembly of

23 Prijedor. In the centre, it has the sign of the BH SDS/Serbian Democratic

24 Party.

25 "Article 2: This stamp is temporary because the constitutional

Page 5337

1 law defining the coat of arms of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

2 Herzegovina has not yet been adopted.

3 "Article 3: This decision shall enter into force on the day it is

4 adopted.

5 "President of the Serbian Municipal Assembly of Prijedor,

6 Dr. Milomir Stakic. Signed and stamped."

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I ask the OTP, what about the signature?

8 MR. KOUMJIAN: I don't believe this is a signature. It appears to

9 be initialled in Cyrillic, with the Cyrillic letters SM.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Objections?

12 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. The same objection: It's not the

13 signature of Dr. Stakic.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This document is admitted into evidence as S174.

15 I understand that, on purpose, that we don't have the documents 43

16 until 53 before us which are listed here.

17 MR. KOUMJIAN: Correct. I believe those are typed signed

18 documents, so they were not included for the purposes of this exercise.


20 Then the next document would be S96, or the former 69. It was

21 already read out and we had already the commentaries.

22 The following, 84, which is S100, applies the same. But I'm

23 afraid it's not S100, it's S101. Correct? May we please have a comment.

24 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour is correct.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So we correct on the list, instead of S100,

Page 5338

1 S101. At the end of the case, we will know these documents by heart.

2 But now, we come to -- apparently, in the bundle it follows

3 immediately 140, which is S105. And this we had already and discussed

4 already. Then the former 207 - I think it was read out - S64.

5 Then 209, this would be S175. May this document please be read

6 out.

7 THE REGISTRAR: "/handwritten/.

8 "Chief of SJB, Simo Drljaca, 02-111-135.

9 "Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Autonomous Region of

10 Krajina, Municipality of Prijedor, Crisis Staff.

11 "Pursuant to Article ___ of the decision on the organisation and

12 functioning of the Crisis Staff in the event of war or the immediate

13 threat of war, the Crisis Staff of the Prijedor Municipality at its

14 meeting of 2 June 1992 issued the following order:

15 "1: Commands and members of the military and regular police

16 forces are hereby ordered to immediately seize all materials and equipment

17 from persons who have acquired them illegally in the course of the recent

18 fighting and to take legal action against these persons.

19 "2: Commands and members of the military and regular police

20 forces, as well as all other army members, are ordered to protect all

21 socially and privately owned property from further looting.

22 "3: Residents and residents' councils are ordered to monitor

23 around the clock the comings and goings of all people at the entrances to

24 their apartment buildings. Any misconduct should be reported to the

25 competent police or military organs, in person or by telephone, numbers

Page 5339

1 21-497 and 92.

2 "4: The appropriate army and police commands shall be responsible

3 for the execution of this order.

4 "Crisis Staff-/signature/.

5 "/Stamp. Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Prijedor

6 Municipal Assembly. Prijedor/"

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Comments on the B/C/S document? We

8 can see something beside the stamp and signature which apparently is not

9 translated. I can't identify.

10 MR. KOUMJIAN: Just my own interpretation, I cannot understand the

11 first word, but it appears to be the date, June 1992, after that.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And in the opinion of the OTP, this shall be the

13 signature of Dr. Stakic?

14 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes. Again, this is what we believe is written in

15 Latin script "S. Milomir," Dr. Stakic's signature.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Objections by the Defence?

17 MR. LUKIC: Same objection, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then this document, former 65 ter 209, admitted

19 into evidence as S175.

20 212, we discussed already before as S66 and it was read out. Same

21 is true for 219, which is S68, and was read out. 224, S69, read out and

22 discussed.

23 225, S70, read out and discussed. 226, S71, read out and

24 discussed. 227, S72, read out and discussed. 230, S75, read out and

25 discussed.

Page 5340












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5341

1 MR. KOUMJIAN: Just a comment, I see that the photocopy that

2 you're using has a little scribble that apparently is my own. I recognise

3 as my own writing the "yes" and then something I wrote, which I can't

4 even read my own writing below that.


6 MR. KOUMJIAN: The 230, S75, you'll see some handwriting on the

7 English-language translation. That's -- just for the Court's information,

8 that's my own writing. Someone photocopied a note I made.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this.

10 246, S77, read out and discussed. 247, S78, read out and

11 discussed. 249, S49, it was read out in the presence of

12 Witness Mujadzic - correct me if I am wrong - on the list.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Witness Cehajic.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Witness Cehajic.

15 I think here we had not yet a final contribution. What believes

16 the OTP to prove by these apparently two documents? Does the OTP believe

17 it's one document, two documents, and what about the signatures?

18 MR. KOUMJIAN: Well, it appears that what this is, is that an

19 instruction from the regional level that was passed on by the municipal

20 level. The decision of the ARK Crisis Staff signed by Mr. Brdjanin is

21 apparently attached to a decision by Dr. Stakic indicating that the people

22 who received this should implement the ARK decision. You see that the

23 decision signed by Dr. Stakic lists that there is an attachment to the

24 decision. So we believe it's the one document was attached to the other.

25 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We already saw most original documents. And

Page 5342

1 apparently, the document really bearing an ink-written signature and

2 indicating a stamp as an original stamp is not available. Is that

3 correct?

4 MR. KOUMJIAN: Without that original in front of me, I couldn't

5 say for sure. Your Honour's memory is probably better than mine. Monday,

6 we'll have those.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We'll come back to this. It is already -- both

8 documents are admitted into evidence already as S49.

9 Then 251, is it the same document as we had under 249 or... ?

10 MR. KOUMJIAN: It appears to be the same document, I believe. I

11 can check, but I believe it has two different ERN numbers, so I believe we

12 seized this in two different locations. It was seized twice; both copies

13 were put into evidence.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Do you tender this document additionally?

15 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes. One actually was seized from the hospital;

16 one was seized from the police station. That fact that they appeared in

17 those two locations we find significant. So we would tender both.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The intention would be to admit this as S49-1.

19 Objections?

20 MR. LUKIC: Same objections, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Admitted into evidence, S49-1.

22 267, already S82, admitted into evidence, read out and discussed.

23 278, S84, discussed, read out.

24 MR. KOUMJIAN: Sorry, could we go back to the 249 and 251.

25 Perhaps we're in error, but we have 249 had been admitted as S45 rather

Page 5343

1 than 49.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I relied on your list. Sorry.

3 MR. KOUMJIAN: I think the Court admitted previously the ARK

4 decision as S45, and the page of Dr. Stakic -- that appears to have

5 Dr. Stakic's signature as S46.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then your list --

7 MR. KOUMJIAN: The list is apparently wrong.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The list is apparently wrong. May the registry

9 please help me. What was the original 249? 65 ter 249, that is "S"

10 number?

11 THE REGISTRAR: Can I make a search and we come back to this.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: What was your contribution?

13 MR. KOUMJIAN: We believe it was actually given two numbers: S45

14 for the decision by the ARK Crisis Staff and S46 for the Prijedor

15 decision.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Under S45 and 46, I have two letters. So these

17 wouldn't be the same documents. I will check right now and let you know.

18 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So we have to come back to these two documents

19 after the break. But I thought that indeed, as to the fact that the

20 witness explained to us how the document was produced and how he received

21 these documents, that there were two numbers assigned. But we have to

22 come back to this. And then it will follow subsequently that the now 251

23 will have the same numbers, only with the addition -1.

24 We had -- we come already to 279, which is S85, read out,

25 discussed. Then 281, just have a look whether it's already the last one

Page 5344

1 for today. No. Therefore, we have to have a break now, and immediately

2 after the break, we continue with a few remaining documents. And I would

3 be grateful if it could be indicated which were the correct "S" numbers

4 for the documents recently discussed and that we are all knowing what we

5 are discussing in future. This should read as List 4. We had until now

6 2, 3. This would be List 4. If there is no objection by the case

7 manager.

8 MR. KOUMJIAN: Perhaps I'd like to redo that list then, to remove

9 those documents that are already on list 2 and 3. Otherwise, it would be

10 confusing. We will make a new list without the documents that were

11 previously marked. I think otherwise it will be confusing.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this assistance. And then you can

13 already include the new exhibit number. Thank you for the assistance.

14 The trial stands adjourned until 12.45.

15 --- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 12.53 p.m.

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated.

18 So what about now 249, 251?

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, I must apologise. OTP was correct,

20 249 is S45 and S46. So 251 will be S45-1 and S46-1.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this clarification. And the

22 understanding is that we will receive a new list which will be then List

23 4. But we have to continue on the basis of what we have before us, and we

24 have to turn now to 65 ter number 281. Could this document please be read

25 out. But just a moment. We have in B/C/S -- could the OTP please explain

Page 5345

1 what we have before us in B/C/S.

2 MR. KOUMJIAN: This is two documents in B/C/S, and I don't see the

3 translation of the second one. Again, this is an ARK Crisis Staff

4 decision which is then apparently forwarded, referred to in a decision by

5 the Crisis Staff of Prijedor with Dr. Stakic's name and signature that,

6 actually, on my copy is not legible. But apparently there's a signature

7 underneath.


9 MR. KOUMJIAN: I don't see a translation.

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Can we please proceed in the way that we first

11 take the document with the -- in B/C/S, the number 0053968, as the next

12 available document, which would then be 576?

13 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: 76A, and "B" for the B/C/S. And could this

15 document be read out now, please.

16 THE REGISTRAR: "At a meeting held on 8 June, 1992, the Crisis

17 Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina took the following decision:

18 I: The organ of administration and management of all social,

19 mixed, and public companies and institutions shall take a decision on

20 terminating the employment of workers.

21 "It is obligatory to terminate employment for the following

22 persons immediately:

23 "(a), women who have contributed to the social security fund for

24 a full 35 years, and men who have contributed to the social security fund

25 for 40 years.

Page 5346

1 "(b), women who are 60 years old, and men who are 65 years old,

2 provided that they have contributed to the social security fund for at

3 least 15 years.

4 "II: A decision shall immediately be taken on terminating

5 employment also for workers who are redundant provided that they meet the

6 conditions for receiving an early pension [men of 55 years of age who have

7 been employed for 35 years, and women of 50 years of age who have been

8 employed for 30 years], or if they meet the conditions for receiving an

9 old-age pension, which concerns women of 55 years of age and men of 60

10 years of age, who have contributed to a pension fund for at least 20

11 years.

12 "III: This decision shall enter into force on the day of its

13 issue and shall be published in the Official Gazette of the Autonomous

14 Region of Krajina.

15 "Number: 03-497/92. 8 June 1992. Banja Luka.

16 "President of the Crisis Staff, Radislav Brdjanin."

17 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. For clarification, because it's --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: For clarification, because it reads not in the

20 correct way twice on the transcripts until now, this document shall be

21 admitted under the --

22 MR. LUKIC: With the same objections.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: -- normal objections as usual under 176A, in

24 English, and "B" in B/C/S.

25 And then how to proceed now? Is it possible to put this document

Page 5347

1 on the ELMO and then to be read out? Yes, the following document.

2 MR. KOUMJIAN: Is the registry going to read in B/C/S? Perhaps

3 the B/C/S booth could read it.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think if the parties so agree, it can be read

5 out from the booths directly in English and French.

6 MR. KOUMJIAN: Or Mr. Lukic could read it in B/C/S.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I think it's close to self-incrimination. Would

8 it be possible to hear this document from the booth in English and French

9 so we have it on the transcript?

10 MR. KOUMJIAN: Apparently, there is a translation available. If

11 we could skip this, we'll obtain it in a few moments.

12 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes. But to have some order in this exercise --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

14 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: To have some order in this exercise, this

15 document should be S177. We have "B" before us, and expecting the English

16 translation of this document immediately. And it will then be read out.

17 Objections by the Defence?

18 MR. LUKIC: A bit different objection, because the signature is

19 not visible at all, at least on the document we have.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Admitted into evidence under S177.

21 We come back to this in the moment we have the translation.

22 It follows now, Document 444. Is there a translation?

23 MR. KOUMJIAN: Apparently there is, so that will be obtained also.

24 Apparently the translation has come back, if -- it's a draft translation.

25 But while perhaps we go to the last document, we can obtain those shortly.

Page 5348

1 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We have to come back to this, then.

2 It follows, 459. Indeed, here is one in B/C/S and something in

3 English. May we hope it's the translation of the document.

4 Could this what we have before us, with the registration number

5 03038729, please be read out.

6 THE REGISTRAR: "Supplement to the minutes.

7 "Pursuant to Rule 29 subparagraph 3 of the rules of procedure of

8 the Prijedor SDS Municipal Board, which also apply to the work of the

9 coordinating body, Milomir Stakic, a member of the coordinating body,

10 invokes the right to enter his dissenting opinion into the minutes.

11 "From the very beginning of my engagement, I have taken part in

12 the establishment of Republika Srpska. The manner in which we have set

13 about carrying out personnel changes in the municipality, in my view, is

14 more reminiscent of destruction than of construction. Therefore, I wish

15 to disassociate myself from all this as I do not wish to be part of

16 anything that has not been approved by the President of the Republic and

17 that has no precedent in other municipality in the Republic. I call for

18 consultations to determine whether it is time for new elections."

19 "Recording clerk: Zoran Stanic /signed/

20 "The authenticity of the statement is certified by Milomir Stakic

21 /signed/."

22 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Comments by the OTP to this document?

23 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes. This has, again, what we believe is the

24 authentic -- one of the authentic signatures, the Latin signature of the

25 defendant -- the accused, S. Milomir. And I'm very curious to hear

Page 5349












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5350

1 whether the Defence believes that someone other than Dr. Stakic certified

2 this document.

3 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Do you have an idea, because this document is

4 not dated at all.

5 MR. KOUMJIAN: I don't have a date, but I can determine. In a

6 moment, I can give you where this document was recovered.

7 This was in the 1997 search of the SDS offices in Prijedor, this

8 document was recovered.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: But the problem remains open, that we have a

10 supplement to the minutes and apparently we don't know which minutes from

11 what date.

12 MR. KOUMJIAN: That's correct. But what I will try to do is to

13 check the ERN range before that to see if there was -- this was attached

14 or recovered with another document. But we -- at least this sheet is not

15 dated.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

17 Comments from the Defence?

18 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. As my learned friend from the

19 opposite stated, that this is one of the different kinds of a signature of

20 Dr. Stakic. So it's obvious that it's not the same as other signatures.

21 And I discussed this document before with Dr. Stakic. He does not

22 remember that he written or signed anything of this nature.

23 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. This document, in order to remain in

24 the order of the list, will then be admitted into evidence as S179A and B.

25 And the document 444, we have to come back now, unfortunately, not having

Page 5351

1 the English translation at hand.

2 MR. KOUMJIAN: It will be here shortly. Perhaps I could take

3 advantage of the delay of the moment to indicate that we have copies, as

4 the Court requested, of the Official Gazette, of the entire gazette number

5 2. And we also have copies of gazette number 3.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The question was, do you have the original of

7 the gazette that we may have a look on this document, or do you --

8 MR. KOUMJIAN: You just want to see the actual gazette that we

9 recovered?

10 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The actual gazette, yes. That was our

11 intention. But we are grateful to receive by the usher now this entire

12 document.

13 The Defence has the entire Official Gazette?

14 MR. LUKIC: I can't check it right now, Your Honour, but if

15 possible, we would like to have a copy.

16 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please, give one copy to the Defence first.

17 Is it the understanding that this document is tendered?

18 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes. Two separate documents.

19 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Two separate. Yes.

20 Objections?

21 MR. LUKIC: No objections, Your Honour.


23 MR. KOUMJIAN: I'm not sure. Just a couple problems to bring to

24 the Court's attention before you make a decision. I'm not sure that the

25 entire number 2 has been translated. I was informed that that may not be

Page 5352

1 completely translated. And not all of those decisions we believe are

2 necessarily relevant, and I know that there's an issue of translation of

3 documents. Just for the Court's information, it's a lengthy document.

4 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I haven't seen it before. It may provide an

5 impression in its entirety, when we have the document before us in its

6 entirety.

7 MR. KOUMJIAN: Just to stall for more time, I'll just make a brief

8 comment. I think that the documents have arrived. But just referring to

9 the -- briefly mentioned, counsel raised something that happened in the

10 Brdjanin/Talic case, a comment by Ms. Korner. I looked at the context in

11 which that was stated, and would be happy to provide transcripts to anyone

12 who is interested. The context was she was talking about AID statements

13 where there was an issue about whether -- that's the Bosniak service,

14 federation service. There was an issue about whether or not the witnesses

15 or witness had signed a statement that was not offered by the OTP into

16 evidence. And I believe hat if you look at the entire context of her

17 remarks, she is not in any way indicating that we intend to offer into

18 evidence documents that we believe are false. That clearly was not the

19 intention of her remarks. And it's not our belief that any of the

20 documents that we're offering into evidence are falsified in any way.

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this comment.

22 The Official Gazette of Prijedor Municipality of 25 June, 1992, is

23 admitted into evidence as S180A, the English translation; and 180B, the

24 copy of the original. And we hope to get -- at least to see once here in

25 the courtroom the original Official Gazette.

Page 5353

1 And then the Official Gazette from the 31st of August, 1992, is

2 admitted into evidence under number S181A, English; and S181B in B/C/S.

3 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you. And Your Honour, the translations, one

4 is a translation and one is a draft translation, have arrived, and they

5 can be distributed.

6 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Translation for Document 444?

7 MR. KOUMJIAN: I believe the longer document is 444 and the

8 shorter one would be S177A.

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could we then, please, start, and read out

10 Document S177A.

11 THE REGISTRAR: "Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

12 Autonomous Region of Krajina, Municipality of Prijedor, Crisis Staff.

13 Number: 02-111-23-I/92.

14 "Date: 6 July 1992.

15 "The decision of the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of

16 Banja Luka number 03-351/92 dated 22nd, June, 1992 has been delivered to

17 the Crisis Staff of the Prijedor Municipality. The decision is being

18 forwarded to you for the purpose of its implementation.

19 "President of the Crisis Staff, Dr. Milomir Stakic /signed and

20 stamped/."

21 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you.

22 And then, please, the draft translation of the former 65 ter

23 Document 444, which is now S178A.

24 THE REGISTRAR: "Republika Srpska, Prijedor Municipal Assembly,

25 Defence Council.

Page 5354

1 "Confidential number: 01-498/96.

2 "Date: 20 March 1996.

3 "Extract from the minutes of an extraordinary session of the

4 Prijedor Municipal Assembly Defence Council held at 1500 hours on 20

5 March, 1996, in the small hall of Prijedor Municipal Assembly.

6 "The session was attended by Dr. Milomir Stakic, President of the

7 Municipal Assembly; Dr. Aleksandar Bereta, President of the Municipal

8 Board of the Serbian Democratic Party; Vukan Tubin, Chairman of the

9 Municipal Executive Committee; Colonel Pero Colic, Assistant Commander of

10 the Operation Group 10; Lieutenant-Colonel Radovan Smitran, Commander of

11 the 43rd Prijedor Motorised Brigade; Major Radovan Ilc, Commander of the

12 5th Kozara Brigade; Slavko Budimir, Chief of the Ministry of Defence

13 Section; Mile Medjed, Deputy Chief of the State Security Department

14 Centre; and Svetozar Petrovic, Secretary of the Municipal Assembly.

15 "The session was chaired by the President, Milomir Stakic.

16 "The following agenda was established for the session:

17 "1: Current issues regarding the resolution of the problems of

18 military installations and the materiel situation of members of the 43rd

19 Motorised Brigade, Prijedor Motorised Brigade and the 5th Kozara Brigade.

20 AD-1. The following took part in the discussion:

21 Lieutenant-Colonel Radovan Smitran, Colonel Pero Colic,

22 Major Radovan Ilic, Vukan Tubin, Dr. Aleksandar Bereta, and

23 Dr. Milomir Stakic.

24 "The following issues were singled out in particular: The

25 necessity of securing land and buildings for two barracks in Prijedor

Page 5355

1 Municipality [for the 43rd Prijedor Motorised Brigade and the 5th Kozara

2 Brigade], including a building for an army centre; the necessity of

3 providing money to pay the soldiers and Reserve Office Corps of the

4 43rd Prijedor Motorised Brigade and 5th Kozara Brigade; the priority

5 resolution of accommodation issues for refugee members of the army; the

6 priority return of mobilised vehicles for commerce and public services;

7 the necessity for representatives of the army to establish as soon as

8 their own capabilities and to state as specifically as possible their

9 requirements to be financed or provided by the municipality.

10 "Following the discussion, during which several other issues were

11 raised, the following were adopted:

12 "Conclusions:

13 "1: In future, material to be considered at a Defence Council

14 session shall be sent in good time.

15 "2: Representatives of the army must sent in writing all requests

16 regarding army requirements [finances, land, buildings, flats, [houses,

17 building and other types of material and equipment, et cetera] to the

18 Prijedor Municipality Executive Committee. Requests must be specific and

19 itemised.

20 "3: Representatives of the army must send requests for the

21 priority resolution of accommodation issues for the Officer Corps for the

22 Executive Committee.

23 "Similarly, they must state their requirements for resolving the

24 accommodation issues of refugee members of the army.

25 "4: Refugee members of the army who are demobilised shall be sent

Page 5356

1 immediately to the Ministry Department for Refugees and Displaced Persons

2 in order to resolve their accommodation issues.

3 "5: Mobilised vehicles shall be returned to Commerce and Public

4 Services as a matter of urgency through the Ministry of Defence

5 Department.

6 "6: Representatives of the army shall be recommended to retain as

7 much as possible vehicles classified as war booty, particularly those that

8 are special purpose. They should be stored and lent for temporary use by

9 health care organisations and enterprises in the municipality according to

10 special procedure.

11 "7: Bearing in mind the serious materiel situation in the

12 municipality, the municipality could temporarily provide pay for a maximum

13 of 1.000 to 1.200 members of the army.

14 "8: Representatives of the army are recommended to plan work

15 units of demobilised refugee members of the army to be engaged in clearing

16 up damaged residential buildings over a certain period.

17 "9: The proposal for the relevant municipal organs, in agreement

18 with the leadership of the SDS/Serbian Democratic Party /municipal board/,

19 to prepare an appropriate informative text giving the most important

20 instructions and directions on how and the manner in which citizens, and

21 particularly refugees, should resolve their accommodation, subsistence,

22 and other issues shall be supported. This text will be broadcast several

23 times by Radio Prijedor.

24 "10: The Chief of the Ministry of Defence Department and

25 Secretary of the Municipal Assembly shall be responsible for preparing a

Page 5357












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5358

1 draft normative/statute/ for the Municipal Assembly Defence Council.

2 "These conclusions completed the agenda for the session.

3 "Sent to: 1: Council members; 2: Files.

4 "President, Dr. Milomir Stakic /signed and stamped/"

5 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for this. May I first hear the

6 comments of the OTP to this document from apparently 1996.

7 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, just for the Court's information, the

8 document was collected in this binder because we were identifying all

9 possible exhibits with the accused's signature, and we do believe this has

10 his signature again. It appears to be "S. Milomir."

11 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Comments by the Defence?

12 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. We saw that the document is outside

13 of the scope of the indictment, but we are glad that the Prosecution

14 provided these documents. We are not telling that the Prosecution has to

15 do anything with this, but it's obvious that the document is tampered.

16 These kind of extracts are never signed. So obviously, something has been

17 done with the document afterwards. So we have the same objections, and

18 previously on top of the objection that it's outside of the scope of the

19 indictment.

20 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: In this context, first of all, it may be that

21 the documents save us -- serves for clarification on the issue of

22 signatures or, as it is submitted by the Defence, for the verification of

23 signatures. So this concludes this round of discussion of signatures or

24 not signatures. We have now to find a way to categorise this. And I

25 tried, and I invite the parties to add some new categories, if possible,

Page 5359

1 that we know what we are discussing.

2 I believe there is one category where the signature of Dr. Stakic

3 is accepted. This is true for Documents S96, S101 and S105.

4 Then we have a second category where you can find a signature,

5 very neutral, "Stakic," as for example on the document just read out. Or

6 is it the position of the OTP that this is more in the direction

7 of "Milomir"?

8 MR. KOUMJIAN: I believe that that's an "S. Milomir."

9 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes. But nevertheless, the second category

10 would be where we can find something like "Stakic."

11 Then we have a third category where one can find something like

12 "Milomir" in Cyrillic; a fourth category where one can find something

13 like "Milomir" in Latin. We have a fifth category, other signatures on

14 documents where one can read typed, "Dr. Milomir Stakic," but evidently

15 other persons signing, sometimes with the addition of the two -- of the

16 word "Za," "for," or on behalf of.

17 And then we have a sixth category where there is no signature at

18 all but only we can find typed, "Dr. Milomir Stakic." And finally,

19 seventh category, that we can find a document under which we have

20 Dr. Milomir Stakic" printed in the Official Gazette.

21 The question is now how to proceed? As regards the categories 2,

22 3, 4, probably including 5, the Bench believes, as already indicated

23 before, that it's necessary to have here the appointment of a handwriting

24 expert; and in addition, the appointment of a typewriter expert to

25 determine whether the documents emanate from the same machine, be it a

Page 5360

1 typewriting machine, be it a printer connected with a PC. Therefore, may

2 I ask, first of all, the party who has the burden of proof, what is the

3 intention how to proceed from their point of view, before we come to

4 ruling under Rule 98?

5 MR. KOUMJIAN: First, we acknowledge that the Trial Chamber under

6 Rule 98 has the right to seek any evidence that would be beneficial to

7 you. We believe that we will prove or have proved beyond a reasonable

8 doubt the authenticity that these are documents authorised by the accused.

9 And that is the key issue.

10 Regarding the signatures, I think the actual signed documents, I

11 would put them in three broad categories: one, signatures that we don't

12 believe are necessarily from the accused, they have a "Za," for example;

13 and two, signatures from Stakic in Cyrillic. And Your Honour indicated

14 that there was "Milomir" in Cyrillic and Latin, and I'm no expert in

15 Cyrillic handwriting especially, but just my brief understanding was that

16 those signatures, which look very similar to me, were in Latin,

17 "S. Milomir." But obviously the "S" would look very different in

18 Cyrillic or in Latin.

19 Those seem to be the signatures that are most in dispute as far as

20 whether or not they are or are not the accused, the "S. Milomir"

21 signatures which are on several key documents. We believe that the

22 evidence shows that that is the accused's signature. That's the only

23 reasonable inference. There has been no evidence in Court to the

24 contrary. And the reason I say that is, one, these documents appear

25 several times on several documents seized not from Bihac or from Sarajevo

Page 5361

1 or from someone giving it to us, but seized from places like public

2 security station in Prijedor, the SDS offices in Prijedor.

3 Secondly, many of these documents are published, already published

4 in a gazette. It would make absolutely no sense, it would not be

5 reasonable to believe that someone has forged the accused's signature,

6 published it in a gazette without his authorisation.

7 Finally, several of the documents that have been presented today,

8 I think it would be completely unreasonable to believe that they do not

9 contain the signature of the accused. One of them would be that very last

10 document in the notebook, where it indicated that Dr. Stakic objected to

11 the procedure regarding personnel changes and it indicated the

12 authenticity of this statement is certified. For Your Honours'

13 information, I have been trying to -- you asked about the date, and I did

14 check. We did have someone check. The ERN range just before that

15 contains - in other words, the numbers just before that - contains

16 documents from an SDS meeting, minutes of an SDS meeting in November 1991.

17 I cannot say for sure that they were attached or even found in the same

18 drawer but it makes sense to me that because of the order and when we get

19 the original, perhaps we'll see the situation.

20 The other two documents were the first two documents in the

21 binder, the first one being former 65 ter number 10, which indicated that

22 it's from, again, very early, January 1991, and has the "S. Milomir." And

23 even much more importantly, the second document, dated the 14th of

24 November, 1991, which is a document regarding signatures for people that

25 go to a bank. These are the authorised signatures of people who can write

Page 5362

1 cheques, basically, can disburse funds on this signature from the bank.

2 You don't have -- I could have someone else, Ms. Karper or someone, sign

3 my name for me for a document with my authorisation, but I don't ask

4 Ms. Karper or someone else to go and put her signature on my bank account.

5 It doesn't make sense that the bank account signature is not that of the

6 person who is going to have the authority to disburse funds.

7 Recording Your Honours' request for a handwriting sample, we don't

8 oppose that at all. But we raise a couple of issues. I don't propose to

9 do it myself first because I have very -- in my experience -- I'm not an

10 expert in graphology, but in my experience, a single signature

11 "S. Milomir" will not be sufficient for an expert to make a positive

12 identification that this was written by an individual. In my experience,

13 it requires more writing.

14 But secondly, a bigger problem, we don't have anything to compare

15 it with unless the accused -- and we asked before, and they indicated they

16 did not want to provide it, we don't have a known sample to compare that

17 signature to, unless Your Honours want to ask the expert to compare, for

18 example, that signature on the bank account with other signatures, but the

19 accused has denied that signature also. So I don't think it would get us

20 that far.

21 Again, we have no objection to checking the machine, the

22 typewriting, but I'm not sure how far that will get us. If it indicates

23 one machine or two, the accused will still say that was forged on one

24 machine or forged on two machines. If it's written on various machines,

25 that's very likely that if decisions are -- I don't know how many machines

Page 5363

1 were available to the SDS or to the accused or to the people working with

2 him. I'm not sure how far it will get us. We don't oppose that. But

3 those are the reasons I want to make it clear why we believe it would not

4 be particularly helpful in the case and we believe that, in the entire

5 context of how these documents were found and what they state, the only

6 reasonable inference is these are authentic documents signed and/or

7 authorised by the accused.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. May we now hear the comments by the

9 Defence.

10 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. First of all, we would like that

11 the record reflects that we had a chance to see some documents that are

12 originals allegedly, and the document S106 is actually -- actually, the

13 document which was shown to us has a signature in photocopy and has

14 original stamp on top of that photocopied signature.

15 I believe that we didn't have a chance to see the document which

16 bears the ERN number 00633806 on which we also could find photocopied

17 signature stamped with the original stamp; and the same for the document

18 with the ERN number 00633814. So, first of all, we would like that

19 Your Honours check whether these statements are correct and to confirm, on

20 the record, the form of these documents.

21 Regarding Your Honour's proposition to have an expertise by a

22 handwriting expert, in general, we don't oppose the proposal. But knowing

23 the practice of this Tribunal, we are not ready to waive the right of our

24 client to remain silent, which includes his right not to give a sample of

25 his handwriting. So if you need more clarifications, I can provide it to

Page 5364

1 you.

2 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for the commentaries. I think it's

3 ripe now for a decision now we have the factual basis.

4 Just briefly, we have before us still a motion under Rule 95.

5 Will there be an updated version of this motion prepared by the Defence?

6 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. As you ordered, by Monday, it will

7 be submitted.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It will be submitted by Monday, and then only

9 later we will receive the response on the basis of the new motion.

10 MR. KOUMJIAN: Just make it clear: We're talking about the motion

11 regarding excluding Mr. Sejmenovic's testimony? So I don't have to write

12 the response this weekend. Thank you very much.

13 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Therefore, I wanted this clarification --

14 MR. KOUMJIAN: One other point just for the Court's --

15 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May I just add, we are eager to know whether or

16 not the parties could find an agreement as regards Documents D13, D14.

17 These were the documents disclosed under Rule 68 and then tendered by the

18 Defence, and there were some problems. This should be discussed amongst

19 the parties.

20 We expect on Monday the documents in colour copy, and please add

21 the documents requested by the Defence immediately before on the

22 transcript and provide the originals. And then please also provide on

23 Monday the originals of the two Official Gazettes of Prijedor.

24 Then, we should know what about the next witnesses to come for the

25 next two weeks, because we have to take care. There will be a plenary,

Page 5365












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 5366

1 but probably only a plenary limited in time. Maybe there is an additional

2 day possible.

3 MR. KOUMJIAN: Okay. My understanding is Mr. Sejmenovic will be

4 back on Monday, and then the next witness is 65 ter number 45. Excuse

5 me. That is Mr. Sejmenovic. The next witness would be 65 ter number 3,

6 followed by 43. So 3, and then 4-3. And I believe that will take us

7 through the Plenary.

8 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. I don't want to go once again into

9 details of this, but please understand that we need to be prepared and,

10 therefore, we need the statements, if they are not disclosed until now and

11 if they are not available for the Judges, as it was the case with our last

12 witness. And please do not forget to provide us in due time - we will say

13 two days before - with these documents and the exhibit lists, and as soon

14 as possible, the proofing notes.

15 Of course, we can't go into further detail now, and it should be

16 discussed later about the time schedule of this case immediately after the

17 Court recess.

18 MR. KOUMJIAN: If we could just bring up the issue quickly

19 regarding that of the videolink.


21 MR. KOUMJIAN: I think we had requested -- we had actually a hole

22 in our schedule. We have a couple days we did not have witnesses for, for

23 the 18th and 19th of July. We were hoping to do the videolink then, but I

24 understand from the registry that that's very difficult or impossible, and

25 a preference would be to do it in September. We don't have a problem, as

Page 5367

1 far as I know, with September but we do have this problem with these

2 two days. And I should also mention that we have a number of witnesses

3 who all want to testify in September. That's a problem, but we expect to

4 finish our case in about the middle of September. But we do have this

5 problem that several of the witnesses, they cannot come in late July to

6 fill that hole.

7 JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please, in this context, do not forget that we,

8 for preparation of the second part of the year, really expect by Monday a

9 list indicating a realistic estimated time for each witness to come and

10 the estimated length of the case of the OTP in future. Until now, we take

11 it that it's undisputed that the end of the Prosecutor's case will be no

12 later than mid of September.

13 Any other issues to be raised today? This is apparently not the

14 case.

15 Then the trial stands adjourned until Monday.

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

17 1.48 p.m., to be reconvened on

18 Monday, the 1st day of July, 2002,

19 at 2.15 p.m.